Menu

America Asks For A King

K
KingJimmy

I came across the following article "America Asks For A King" by Laura Hollis at TownHall.com. I thought this article was very insightful concerning the present political climate in America. I hope you enjoy:


"America Asks For A King" by
Laura Hollis

I am an attorney and professor of law and entrepreneurship, so I usually confine my commentary to matters of public policy, and leave theology to those who have chosen that field of study. But since today is Sunday, I will take the liberty of making an observation with a more Biblical bent.

As one who has taught entrepreneurship and entrepreneurial thinking for nearly ten years, I am distressed by the apparently overwhelming sentiment sweeping Americans that they must now be taken care of. I know from years of studying the matter that a society in which most members are – or can be – entrepreneurial, is a society where upward mobility is the rule; where wealth is created – not just “spread around”; where hope is common currency; where the inevitable problems are viewed as opportunities to find sustainable solutions, and where those solutions are typically new industries, new companies, and new jobs. An entrepreneurial society is a society where most people wish to, and know they can, take care of themselves, their families, and even others in need. Where charity and philanthropy are fellow-travelers with success.

Joe the Plumber’s exposure of Obama’s “spread the wealth” philosophy exploded like a flash fire, not only because that philosophy is utterly anti-American, but because it is shortsighted, and immoral. It is short-sighted, because in an economy that is a bit battered and fragile, what we need are more businesses, more workers, and more wealth creation in the private sector, not more government programs and more people dependent upon them. It is short-sighted because it is a failed business model. And, as we saw with the collapse of major lending institutions a few weeks ago, a failed business model, made larger (or “spread around,” if you prefer) by government, is not just a failure, but a catastrophic failure. So it was with the irresponsible lending practices foisted on American banks by the government, and so it will be with the irresponsible spending and doomed reliance on government largesse that Obama and the Democrats are peddling as salvation.

And the inevitability of its failure is why Obama’s philosophies are not just foolhardy, but immoral. It is immoral to deceive well-meaning people about what you intend to do with their money. It is immoral to take by force from those who produce, give to others who do not, and call it “charity.” It is staggeringly immoral to create an ever-larger class of dependent, helpless people who will be doomed to starve when the unsustainable system you have created collapses. And most of all, it is profoundly immoral to set yourself up as a secular messiah of sorts, assuring people that you will take care of them, eliminate hardship, heal the planet, and hold enemies at bay by the sheer force of your own hypnotic rhetoric.

Obama’s economic and social theories have been debunked and disproven (at great human cost) so many times over the past 100 years that it’s laughable anyone still believes in them. But at least his designs on the country are understandable. Those who crave power will use any tactic, as long as it works.

It’s the fact that it’s working that is inscrutable to me. And this is where the Biblical references come in. Americans’ attitude toward this posturing, self-important, political zealot remind me of the Israelites’ demand for a king, as recounted in the Book of Samuel:


When Samuel grew old, he appointed his sons as judges for Israel. The name of his firstborn was Joel and the name of his second was Abijah, and they served at Beersheba. But his sons did not walk in his ways. They turned aside after dishonest gain and accepted bribes and perverted justice. So all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah. They said to him, "You are old, and your sons do not walk in your ways; now appoint a king to lead us, such as all the other nations have." But when they said, "Give us a king to lead us," this displeased Samuel; so he prayed to the LORD. And the LORD told him: "Listen to all that the people are saying to you; it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected Me as their king. As they have done from the day I brought them up out of Egypt until this day, forsaking Me and serving other gods, so they are doing to you. Now listen to them; but warn them solemnly and let them know what the king who will reign over them will do." Samuel told all the words of the LORD to the people who were asking him for a king. He said, "This is what the king who will reign over you will do: He will take your sons and make them serve with his chariots and horses, and they will run in front of his chariots … He will take your daughters to be perfumers and cooks and bakers. He will take the best of your fields and vineyards and olive groves and give them to his attendants. He will take a tenth of your grain and of your vintage and give it to his officials and attendants. Your menservants and maidservants and the best of your cattle and donkeys he will take for his own use. He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his slaves. When that day comes, you will cry out for relief from the king you have chosen, and the LORD will not answer you in that day."

But the people refused to listen to Samuel. "No!" they said. "We want a king over us. Then we will be like all the other nations, with a king to lead us and to go out before us and fight our battles." When Samuel heard all that the people said, he repeated it before the LORD. The LORD answered, "Listen to them and give them a king." (1 Samuel 8:1-22)


The comparisons are telling: Americans are understandably fed up with corruption, greed, and perversion of justice in our leaders. But till now, we have asked for no king, because we could take care of ourselves, and because we have always been a godly people. But look around now – our children languish in failing, crumbling, unsafe, and undisciplined schools, many of which are merely bastions of social experimentation. Our cities are riddled with crime. Our families are devastated by divorce, abuse, illegitimacy, absent fathers, and definitions of “marriage” that fluctuate with the sexual predilections du jour. Our culture – books, films, music – is saturated with violence and perversion that even the smallest child is exposed to. And of course, one cannot forget – the high watermark of freedom and femininity, and the litmus test of liberty for the Left is the unfettered right to kill our own children in our wombs (or leave them to die outside of them).

This is what we, as a nation, have brought ourselves to. These are problems that no amount of social spending will cure, and any promise to do so is a lie, because no amount of money will change people’s hearts. And yet, instead of reaching deep within ourselves to find the solutions, we now whine and mewl for someone to save us.

And here he comes, Barack Obama, on a “righteous wind.”

As with anyone who would be king, Obama will take our money and our property in ever-larger amounts. Our children will be saddled with debt and beholden to a bloated government that will enslave the very people it promised to help. We will be at the mercy of our enemies. And no matter how bleak or desperate our own lives becomes, the leaders in Obama’s government will always thrive; such people always do. Nor is any of this is unique to Obama; it is in the nature of every king, and every government, which is why our government was originally set up to be limited, both to protect us, and to ensure our own self-reliance.

John McCain will not be a perfect President. But it is not necessary for the leader of a free, righteous, and entrepreneurial people to be perfect. I can support John McCain because he asks only that I vote for him, not that I worship him. And I will vote for John McCain on November 4th, not because he would be a better king, but because he does not claim to be one at all.

Neither McCain nor Obama is a king who will save us; we must turn instead to the only One who can.

I
InHisGrace

This article say it all .....


Jesus is the only King of Kings and Lord of Lords

C
crsschk

Thought this was a very telling article and couldn't get the correlations out of my mind. The sense of a dependance created upon handouts and a sense of being owed something.

[i] For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.[/i] 2Th 3:10

The correlation to the present prosperity juggernaut which preached in it's plainest terms is something for nothing and faith as presumption, an unspoken obligation upon God to fulfill a promise never given.

If you fail, the expectation is that someone is supposed to come bail you out. It seems it is charity in reverse, an abuse of what used to be a sense of responsibility. It seems to have permeated the entire culture and many Christan's have bought into the ideal.

This is what we, as a nation, have brought ourselves to. These are problems that no amount of social spending will cure, and any promise to do so is a lie, because no amount of money will change people’s hearts. And yet, instead of reaching deep within ourselves to find the solutions, we now whine and mewl for someone to save us.

The original correlation to Samuel and asking for a king is remarkable.

[i]As one who has taught entrepreneurship and entrepreneurial thinking for nearly ten years, I am distressed by the apparently overwhelming sentiment sweeping Americans that they must now be taken care of.[/i]

G
ginnyrose

I often think how the USA government has taken over the role of the church's function in society and made a big mess of it.

Consider education: it used to be the local church operated the schools. And see what mess the feds have made by taking over this job.

How about the medical? the church women used to go out and render assistance to the ill. Now you have health care commercialized and out of reach of many hard-working folks who now have to look for alternative methods of healing.

How about social services? Mike talked about it - the federal government had created a dependency by the handout of goods with no responsibility attached to its acquisition.

How about behaviour modification? Haul people off to the psychologists, psychiatrist, drug them...And many theologians promoted doctrines that dismiss the fact that Salvation does change lives which downplay the importance of the Gospel to change man.

Perhaps it would do the American people good if this manmade god would flat on his face, like Dagon...would we be ready for it? Maybe I will have to go hide my head in the sand...

ginnyrose

K
KingJimmy

Indeed, I thought it was quite remarkable. Of course, the correlation is not perfect, as we have never been a theocracy.

However, the heart of this story here has to do with the heart and disposition of the people, and it seems people in all ages are always looking for a Messiah of sorts. We seem to have a "Messianic disposition" in us by nature. But sadly, when that disposition goes unfulfilled, false Messiah's appear to take that place.

C
ChrisJD

Hi everyone,

I too have thought about this passage from Samuel and feel like it relates very much to us today. So much so that I've distributed literature in that regard.

But, I was wondering if I could make a few comments about something from the article that is important to me at least.

"An entrepreneurial society is a society where most people wish to, and know they can, take care of themselves, their families, and even others in need. [b]Where charity and philanthropy are fellow-travelers with success[/b]."(emphasis added)

When I read this, I was reminded how the children of Israel were instructed in the Law to not oppress one another and to treat one another fairly, even to the point where they were not to lend money on intrest to one of their own people(Ex 22:25).


"And if thou sell aught unto thy neighbor, or buyest [i]aught[/i] of thy neighbor's hand, ye shall not oppress one another:"

- Leviticus 25:14(KJV)

And I think about this, to say that, when I hear the calls for social justice in politics, or when I hear it in the voices and attitudes of people that I talk to on the street, I don't despise them for it, at least I don't want to. I try, or perhaps am trying, to take it as a reminder that there are alot of things which are important to God. Not just, for instance, our sexual morality.


Maybe that is something that we can be reminded of in this election time also.


And too, I was reminded how, when the children of Israel came out of slavery in Egypt, they often wanted to return. The author of the article said this in the qoute that I selected:


"An entrepreneurial society is a society where most people wish to, and know they can, take care of themselves, their families..."


But coming out of slavery is hard. I live in the black community. I've lived around black people, have had them as my friends, all my life. My wife is black. I don't know that there is such a general confidence in the black community that they can take care of their familes. When black people were freed from slavery in this country, they were not delivered into lands with houses they did not build and wells they did not dig and feilds they did not plant. Neither was their property returned to them in a year of Jubilee? But for [b]centuries[/b] in this county they have been sorely oppressed.


And where they somehow treated generally as equals by white Christians? Even 50 or 60 years ago? The sin of hatred and racisim among white people against those who are black, even by professing Christians, in America, is a disgusting and vile evil. Especially if it is among people that profess faith in Christ.

We do not live in a cookie cutter world where everyone knows and believes they can succeed.

The children of Israel were told to remember that they themselves were once slaves in Egypt and to treat others with that in mind(Lev 19:34).


R
RobertW

Mike's: The correlation to the present prosperity juggernaut which preached in it's plainest terms is something for nothing and faith as presumption, an unspoken obligation upon God to fulfill a promise never given.

This is a remarkable statement. It concerns me that man is bent on serving Mammon or serving Mammon in the name of serving the one true God. At the end of the day it is a mixture of covetousness and laziness. The world has been looking for a 'messiah' that would usher in such a 'god' and accompanying moral ethic. I think they may have found him and if he be not the one- they will surely look for another.

Why? Because covetousness and laziness rules the day; hard work and contentment are out of style. In short it is saying "I want", but I "want not hard work and if I must presume upon God to get it- I will." I'm reminded:

[color=000066]If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself. [i]But godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. [/i](I Timothy 6 italics added)[/color]

R
RobertW

And where they somehow treated generally as equals by white Christians? Even 50 or 60 years ago? The sin of hatred and racisim among white people against those who are black, even by professing Christians, in America, is a disgusting and vile evil. Especially if it is among people that profess faith in Christ.

This is very true. We cannot tolerate racism among believers. I think it is true in both directions.

[color=000066]And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation... (Acts 17:26)[/color]

What I have worked to do from an administrative point of view is to encourage others to give their life to Christ and allow Him to direct them. I think the most oppressive aspect of inner city life is a self-destructive impatient mindset that is not willing to allow a functional mode of success to develop- no matter how many people try to counsel or try to help certain ones caught in this.

And I do not believe it is a color thing- I think it is a destructive and defensive sub-culture that assumes the world is their enemy and they have to get theirs no matter how they have to do it. Right now I have 4 young family members in prison and one that is near to it and all of them are white. I have worked hard and helped many of these people financially as well as other areas. But the destructive mindset (that I believe is demonic) overrides and real sense of change. They have the same mindset as many other ethnic groups that have been oppressed, but they have never really been oppressed. They are their own worst enemy. It is almost like they are bent on destruction and they have no one to blame, nor history to cite as the cause. So I am not convinced that the problems that we see carrying on have a historical context otherwise I would not be seeing identical behaviors across multiple ethnic groups with very different histories.

C
ChrisJD

Hi Robert, hope you are well?


Thank you for your thoughts here. I think you raised some great points.


"I think it is a destructive and defensive sub-culture that assumes the world is their enemy and they have to get theirs no matter how they have to do it."


I know what you mean and had my own experience of this when I was younger, doing destructive things that I had no reason to do. But, I'm not sure that because some white people identify themsevles with that same mentality in order to justify their own evil inclinations, that this means there are not genuine social and historical roots to the problems that black people have in our society.


This seems like cutting off the foot of a newborn child, calling him a worthless cripple all of his life, and then latter, when he becomes an adult, giving him a prosthesis and saying 'now why can't you sprint like the rest of us'.

H
HeartSong

I have become convinced that there is something special about the black people in the eyes of God - primarily from all of the persecution that they have experienced.

My brother in law is black. When I talk to him, it is as if we are on different planets - I think this is due to differing viewpoints - a different way of seeing. I do not think that there is anyone that I know that has a larger heart, and maybe this is where the difference comes in - and also, this may be one of the reasons for their persecution. They have a largeness of heart that makes them vulnerable - and if bitterness sets in, it is a large bitterness.

From what I have seen, and from sermons that I have heard (primarily Art Katz), God blesses the coming together of things that are opposite - as is black and white, male and female, young and old. These are the places that Satan seeks to implant a dividing wedge, for in these divisions he can wreck much havoc.

God has me focused on black and white lately. Black is the absence of color. White is the combination of all color. Grey is not a color in and of itself, but only a combination of black and white. Black absorbs light. White reflects light...

S
sermonindex

It is staggeringly immoral to create an ever-larger class of dependent, helpless people who will be doomed to starve when the unsustainable system you have created collapses. And most of all, it is profoundly immoral to set yourself up as a secular messiah of sorts, assuring people that you will take care of them, eliminate hardship, heal the planet, and hold enemies at bay by the sheer force of your own hypnotic rhetoric.

I believe this is exactly what the last beast will want to do in order to make the people of the world receive its mark: put them in a place of total dependence upon their government, which, as the author states, will bring them down on their knees to ask that same government for deliverance when the system fails. Then people who have trusted in their leaders will have nowhere to turn to because the alternative to accepting the proposed "solutions" will be starvation and despair. Therefore, people will be prone to sacrifice their liberties for the promised "salvation" and "security". Of course, such a policy as Obama's is staggeringly immoral, but what can we expect from servants of Satan himself, from false messiahs? And the wicked will not understand anything, and will welcome the solutions. But those of understanding will instruct and help many.

What saddens me is that largely the church is so unprepared and a number of Christians who have, wittingly or not, made the government an idol will be brought on their knees at the end and thus depart from the faith, while others the Lord will chasten and deliver. I am not talking just about America here, but also about Bulgaria and the rest of the world.

Brother Mike made a good point:

If you fail, the expectation is that someone is supposed to come bail you out. It seems it is charity in reverse, an abuse of what used to be a sense of responsibility. It seems to have permeated the entire culture and many Christan's have bought into the ideal.

It is so important that we are obedient to the voice of God that we may be used for His purposes in the serious times we live in. Perhaps it will be our correct response to suffering and trials which will prepare us for the times ahead.

S
sermonindex

I suppose we get what we deserve because it is taught to vote for the lesser of two evils. There is eight total candidates on the ballot. Shouldn't we vote our conscience? Instead of voting between two men? Won't change occur when we break party line and vote for the one who will best serve America, not what pop-culture and the media focus on. I regret that I failed in this, I voted and went for the lesser of two evils. I felt grieved after this. I didn't care for either main candidate. There was one man who I strongly considered to vote for, but new he wouldn't stand a chance. But isn't that how we should vote? What if we all take that attitude to the ballot, a cast our vote for the best man to serve. That would more than likely get these career politicians out of office, we would strike a cord in politics. Could you imagine a underdog winning, an independent!

Next thought, should we even vote? AS believers. I am for one going to consider this for next time I need to vote.

K
KingJimmy

I'm an independent, who typically votes "for the Republican of your choice" (my Dad's philosophy). But this year while I voted Republican most of the time, there were a couple times where I voted with the Libertarian party. I voted Bob Barr for President.

Will he win? Not a chance. As it is, the electoral college is made up of mostly (if not entirely) Democrats and Republicans, who are mostly going to vote along party lines as it is-- which leaves no room for a third party candidate to emerge victorious.

The issue is ultimately that of power. The two party system we have in place now swings in the favor of those in power staying in power. That's why a lot of Senators are able to make a life-long career out of being a Senator. A decent sized--but not quite large enough-- third-party candidate (like Ross Perot from back in the days of the first George Bush) also more-or-less furthers the two party system. For such a candidate always seems to undermine at least one of the parties from whose "base" they come. Thus, while many people are open to a third party, they ultimately look at a vote for a third party as "wasted," because when push comes to shove, failure to vote "for the lesser of two evils" results in what one deems to be the "greater evil" winning the election. Thus, had many of the Republicans voted for Bush instead of Parrot back in the 90's, it is possible Clinton never would've won office. As a result of his winning of office, a lot of laws and appointments were made that Republican-minded voters did not care for over the course of 8 years.

It's really all a sad state of affairs. I've said all this because I ultimately believe the Devil is very glad there are only two "powers" (politically speaking), for it is much easier to consolidate two powers into one power. For the Devil is intoxicated with power, and wants political "unity," through which he can ultimately rule as an arrogant oppressor. A one-party system, which tends to exist under socialist states-- and absolutely under communist ones-- allows him the most leverage to accomplish what he seeks to accomplish in history. Patriotism and nationalism then come together to make for a deification of the state. Alternative messiahs, instead of Jesus Christ (anti-Christ), thus become a very real possibility over night.

Sadly, the thing that is supposed to drive men to God, the "eternity established in their hearts," that God-sized question mark as it were, when it does not find its fulfillment in God still seeks its fulfillment just the same. The absolute dedication of some Obama supporters is almost without precedent here in America. I've literally heard people say that if Obama is elected, they'll not have to work and struggle to pay for this, that, and the other... rather... the State will simply take care of it. I've yet to come across anybody, though I'm sure they exist, who have such a "worshipful" spirit in regard to any of the other candidates. A "change" is most definitely coming.

C
ChrisJD

Hi everyone,


"A one-party system, which tends to exist under socialist states-- and absolutely under communist ones-- allows him the most leverage to accomplish what he seeks to accomplish in history.Patriotism and nationalism then come together to make for a deification of the state."


We had a missionary serving in China come make a presentation not too long ago. He spent some time speaking to us about the conditions in North korea. He indicated that the government there amounts to a form of religion and worship: of the deceased father and his son(who is the current leader) and of the spirit of the form of Communisim that they have in place. Voice of the Martyrs also had a section about North Korea in their latest Newsletter(October 2008). A striking illustration of what KingJimmy suggested there.

"A "change" is most definitely coming."

I was reading this week a somewhat lengthy article that I printed off the internet about a professing Muslim that was elected to an office in the US, and how he had made a point of using a Koran to take his oaths. The article gave some perspectives on this and a bit of history about our conflict with Islamic terrorism. The point was made of how the founders left the possibility of this open and left the decision of who should lead us, regardless of their ideological backgrounds to the voters. But those who are qouted in that regard also express doubt that anyone would ever become elected to high offices who were not Christians, unless, as one put it '...the people themselves be of the same opinion'.


The article is [url=http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=384]here(Spring 2007 Newsletter of WallBuilders)[/url]

R
RobertW

Hi Chris,

All is well on my end at this time. Hope all is well with you and yours also.

But, I'm not sure that because some white people identify themsevles with that same mentality in order to justify their own evil inclinations, that this means there are not genuine social and historical roots to the problems that black people have in our society.

Good point here and well taken. Sometimes I find a very destructive mindset that I cannot quite get my head around. I have seen it manifest in various ethnic groups and on various socio-economic levels. Truly I think the root of the problem is [i]selfishness[/i].

I'm thinking now of two young men, both white. One from a poorer background and one from a wealthier background. Both of these young men have been in and out of prison. The poorer young man I spoke to in 1994 in his cell headed back to the big house. He told me almost boastingly that he had 4 children all from different moms and while he was out on parole got a 5th woman pregnant. The second young man I know has 5 children by 4 different moms and is headed back to prison now in 2008.

What is going on in the minds of these people that refuse to take responsibility for these children and complain that the state would force them to support them? To me, it is selfishness of unprecedented proportions. To me, this is the greatest problem that exists right now here in our inner city and low income- drug infested areas. How do we see repentance on this most fundamental level?

R
RobertW

Jimmy's: A "change" is most definitely coming.

[color=000066]This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men. (Daniel 4:17)[/color]

I had the fortune of trying to remove a tree stump from a yard yesterday and thought how Nebuchadnezzar had been cut down by God and what the experience taught him. Having gone temporarily insane by the hand of God, eating grass like oxen, laid out in the field like a circus act- when his mind finally returned Nebuchadnezzar had a revelation:

[color=000066] And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation: And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? At the same time my reason returned unto me; and for the glory of my kingdom, mine honour and brightness returned unto me; and my counsellors and my lords sought unto me; and I was established in my kingdom, and excellent majesty was added unto me. Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase. (Daniel 4:34-37) [/color]


K
KingJimmy

I am responsible for the short-sayings that are put up week after week at my church on the marquee in front of our building. This week, in light of all the political happenings going on, I offered this thought:

"Jesus: Change You Can Believe In"

:-)

K
KingJimmy


We had a missionary serving in China come make a presentation not too long ago. He spent some time speaking to us about the conditions in North korea. He indicated that the government there amounts to a form of religion and worship: of the deceased father and his son(who is the current leader) and of the spirit of the form of Communisim that they have in place. Voice of the Martyrs also had a section about North Korea in their latest Newsletter(October 2008). A striking illustration of what KingJimmy suggested there.


Karl Marx once said that religion is the opiate of the masses, and was strongly against it. Yet it is very interesting that even though communist states are atheistic, they manage to produce a cult of the state. I think such is so telling of human nature and God's design. Fundamentally, we were created to worship. We are religious creatures by nature. Yet, even the sternest of atheists turn their hearts towards something and serve it.

Even in a Capitalist society such as we are (or used to be??), even the hardcore atheist bows before the almighty dollar. In a Socialist society, the hardcore atheist bows before the state. In a Capitalist society, since the dollar is worshiped, then we simply toss money at all our problems in an attempt to fix things. In a Socialist society, where the state is worshiped, another government program becomes the solution to everything, since after all, the government can fix everything.

Both systems, because of man's fallen nature, tend towards some form of idolatry. Man is designed to worship, and will worship something even if it is not God. Personally though, if I was able to choose which system I'd rather live amongst, I think I'd rather have everybody worshiping the almighty dollar than the state.

C
crsschk

[i]And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down out of the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron, and said unto him, Up, make us gods, which shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.[/i] Exo 32:1

Doesn't take long ... Great observation KJ, would add Robert's note of [i]selfishness[/i] as that 'something' if it is not God and is ultimately where even the money would be a lesser god.


I'm an independent, who typically votes "for the Republican of your choice" (my Dad's philosophy). But this year while I voted Republican most of the time, there were a couple times where I voted with the Libertarian party. I voted Bob Barr for President.


:-)

Couldn't help smile at that, my father would add "Vote NO on everything" to the list of initiatives. Of course that's being sarcastic, found this year that the way these things can be written (which always leaves you with a sense of recognition that both sides are exaggerating the truth) a "YES" vote often means "NO" - Leave it alone, don't add more bloat to the debt, no you cannot redefine marriage, etc.

Will he win? Not a chance. As it is, the electoral college is made up of mostly (if not entirely) Democrats and Republicans, who are mostly going to vote along party lines as it is-- which leaves no room for a third party candidate to emerge victorious.

Precisely and such is my disdain for politics as it now functions.

It's really all a sad state of affairs.

It's incredible to me that what we have right now is a popularity contest and again the correlations to the church. The best sellers, the big name charismatic ... well, there's the word right there. Flamboyant, eloquence of speech, even [i]carefulness[/i] not to offend and ride the road of popularity, the "cult of personality".

The disclaimer is noted in regards to these political forays here but I do think it is the heart disease that we are examining. What does make this even more sad is to go back and look at the history and the character of men that began this country. We have already gone over the "Christian nation" aspects but there is no denying the foundations and fundamentals - What is striking is that character that seems so far from us in this day; There was a time when doing the right thing over ruled the pettiness and surface level, face saving, career enhancing aspects. I would forward that there was less selfishness and a certain nobility towards the greater good and doing what was needed. To [i]serve[/i] as an honor.

At any rate, to come full circle back to the origins of this post ... "Work-ethic" is what I cannot get out of my mind and that I believe is what is at bottom that Robert was getting at with the two comparable youngsters - whatever their circumstances and upbringings. It is what made this once great country what it ... is.

S
sermonindex

Capitalism, socialism, nor democracy are the cure for the ills of this world. With greed and corruption abound in what is most definitely a sin problem, the real problems can only be exposed by the Holy Spirit through the church. Otherwise there is just blame and figerpointing. The world has all kinds of solutions but no revelation. The greatest validation to socialism is a failure in capitalism and vice versa. There were many quasi-socialists on Wall St. when a government bailout was announced. It had nothing to do with ideology at that point, but had everything to do with money. Despite which 'ism' one chooses, the greedy and powerful will still elevate themselves at the expense of everyone else. In this world the first will be first and those willing to pay the price of greed and lack of conscience will get there first. I believe God has shown us some things the last 16 years and this is what I've gleaned:

The failure of each party has had everything to do with the rise of the other...this has been a back and forth issue for some time. But one thing has remained constant.....greed and corruption. Money has been behind it all whether it be through lobbyists,embezzlement, or simply billions of dollars in 'legal' funding. The jockeying of power is an ideological one but it is still those who sell out to power and greed who remain influential despite what ideology got the most votes or gains control.

The church has tried in vain to exert its influence, the worlds way, and now we may be heading for a pendulum swing of ideology to the contrary side of the last terms. We'll see what folly God will expose regardless of whose in charge.

They say that in the midst of outright oppression in China, the underground church flourishes. And they don't get to vote. Perhaps the church in America has been more forceful in its own influence than devoted to the One who could have truly made a difference. Perhaps we've been trying to fit the square peg of selling out to political influence in to the round hole of God's perfect and mandated way. If oppression comes here, I submit that we look at ourselves as part of the problem rather than any ideology that God has allowed to rule. Leonard Ravenhill preached endlessly of trying moments coming to America because we choose to trade our Bibles in the home for mere stones on government property and creationism in our schools. If we fought as hard to turn the tv off, forgo year around soccer, and train our children up in The Word as we do to keep stones on goverment property and God in our schools perhaps the influence in America would come as a BYPRODUCT of our total devotion and faith to God. It seems to me that the more we exert influence in activism the more influence we have taken from us. Ravenhill would say that God is more concerned about the 'prayer office' than the 'oval office'. I think he was speaking prophetically in many ways in these pointed sermons.

K
KingJimmy

Indeed, the problem with any "ism" is that they are all godless cures for the woes in this world. In order to expose them and us for the things they are, houses built on sand, God allows corruption to soak through it all so as to bring it all down. The failure of one system vindicates another system, and vice verse. If an ideology is able to survive its own failure, it simply awaits the day in which its counterpart falls so that it can rise. It's like a teeter-toter. Back and forth, back and forth, up and down, up and down.


The church has tried in vain to exert its influence, the worlds way, and now we may be heading for a pendulum swing of ideology to the contrary side of the last terms.


Indeed, such things as "The Moral Majority" were fatally flawed.

R
rookie

Joe the Plumber’s exposure of Obama’s “spread the wealth” philosophy exploded like a flash fire, not only because that philosophy is utterly anti-American, but because it is shortsighted, and immoral.


What really is "immoral?"

Proverbs 28:8

"One who increases his possessions by usury and extortion gathers it for him who pity the poor."

If one really desires to see immorality according to the Scriptures what does this Scripture say?


The "economy" has been and still is based on "usury and extortion." The seeds of this corruption began in 1913. And now we see that the entire financial system is at the mercy of this Scripture.

The kings and princes have stopped creating wealth a long time ago. The largest export of this nation is "debt." Debt is a product of fianacial system based on usury and extortion.

And now we find that those who have created this system are now seeking to preserve their possessions. But we know that this endeavor is futile. We know that according to the Scripture above, their possessions that they gained by "usury and extortion" are gathering

"it for him who pity the poor."

The roaring twenties are like these days that we live in. There is nothing new under the sun. What has been before will be again.

Do not be swayed by the philosophies of this world. Read the Scripture.

In Christ
Jeff

R
RobertW

And now we find that those who have created this system are now seeking to preserve their possessions. But we know that this endeavor is futile. We know that according to the Scripture above, their possessions that they gained by "usury and extortion" are gathering

"it for him who pity the poor."

It is interesting how many Christians do not realize what scripture has to say about the way we do business in our times. When you look at Luke 3 when John Baptist came preaching repentance, in each case when he answered the question, "what shall we do"- each answer dealt with the persons attitude towards their possessions/money. This was the ax being laid at the 'root' of the tree. Can we imagine taking scripture seriously enough to actually share our possessions with those with [i]genuine[/i] needs and lend expecting nothing in return?

R
rookie

As it was during Isaiah's time, so it is today...

Isa 1:23 Your princes [are] rebellious, And companions of thieves; Everyone loves bribes, And follows after rewards. They do not defend the fatherless, Nor does the cause of the widow come before them. Isa 3:12 [As for] My people, children [are] their oppressors, And women rule over them. O My people! Those who lead you cause [you] to err, And destroy the way of your paths."


Isa 3:13 The LORD stands up to plead, And stands to judge the people.


Isa 3:14 The LORD will enter into judgment With the elders of His people And His princes: "For you have eaten up the vineyard; The plunder of the poor [is] in your houses.


Isa 3:15 What do you mean by crushing My people And grinding the faces of the poor?" Says the Lord GOD of hosts.


Who are these princes of our day? How do they "who lead" us "cause" us "to err", "and destroy the way of your paths."


In Christ
Jeff

S
sermonindex

Jeff,

Remarkable observations. I have a question for you, though (or for anyone who can answer):

Proverbs 28:8
"One who increases his possessions by usury and extortion gathers it for him who pity the poor."

Now, in the verse it says that they increase their possessions by usury and extortion. I am assuming they did have real possessions which they then gathered "for him who pity the poor". How about the princes and usurers of our day though? When their possessions vanish in an instant because they are money created out of thin air and never had real value? How would others gather their possessions if their wealth vanishes like a vapor?

In Christ,
Slavyan

R
rookie

Brother Slavyan wrote:


How about the princes and usurers of our day though? When their possessions vanish in an instant because they are money created out of thin air and never had real value?

The US spends $10,000,000,000.00 per month in sustaining the two wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Just think about all the material, fuel, equipment, rations, electricity, wages, bribes, and medical care that is dispensed in that month.

Now add that amount for 9 months straight. Again imagine all that $90,000,000,000.00 buys in sweat and tears.

The US taxpayer just spent that same amount in one month trying to prevent AIG from going bankrupt. There is speculation now that this effort will fail. The money did not disappear into thin air. The money has been distributed to many different bank accounts all over the world. Those who have received this money are the same who are responsible for the implosion of our financial system. These same people are now spreading a lie. They say that it is immoral to "spread the wealth" around.

They are fearful of a democratically elected group of people who express the desires of those who elect them. They are fearful of populist doctrines which tax their wealth and seek to distribute their ill gotten gains amongst the poor.

The verse in Proverbs 28:8 explains this ongoing event in human history. First, the princes of this world have repeatedly created financial pyramid schemes in many different generations. This foolish and immoral scheming grind the faces of the poor. The result of this oppression brings a change of direction within the nation that has suffered such immorality. A most recent example of this occurred in the 1930s and 1940s. The New Deal Programs of Franklin Roosevelt did the same thing that Obama's programs will do in the future.

Solomon writes of these events in the book of Ecclesiastes 1:


9 \tThat which has been is what will be,
\tThat which is done is what will be done,
\tAnd there is nothing new under the sun.
10 \tIs there anything of which it may be said,
\t“See, this is new”?
\tIt has already been in ancient times before us.
11 \tThere is no remembrance of former things,
\tNor will there be any remembrance of things that are to come
\tBy those who will come after.


The word of God is certain. The story that it tells of man's foolishness will be witnessed by all generations.

In Christ
Jeff

R
rookie

As a side note...

I am voting for Ron Paul tomorrow. I could not vote with a clean conscious for either of the leaders on the ballot. To me they remind me of a generation long ago...

Isaiah 3:
1 For behold, the Lord, the LORD of hosts,
\tTakes away from Jerusalem and from Judah
\tThe stock and the store,
\tThe whole supply of bread and the whole supply of water;
2 \tThe mighty man and the man of war,
\tThe judge and the prophet,
\tAnd the diviner and the elder;
3 \tThe captain of fifty and the honorable man,
\tThe counselor and the skillful artisan,
\tAnd the expert enchanter.


4 \t“I will give children to be their princes,
\tAnd babes shall rule over them.


5 \tThe people will be oppressed,
\tEvery one by another and every one by his neighbor;
\tThe child will be insolent toward the elder,
\tAnd the base toward the honorable.”


In Christ
Jeff

R
rbanks

Isn't there different groups in the bible called poor. I mean there seems to be a group that became poor because of their sinful choices.

Proverbs 23:21 (KJV) For the drunkard and the glutton shall come to poverty: and drowsiness shall clothe a man with rags.

Pr 21:17 He that loveth pleasure shall be a poor man: he that loveth wine and oil shall not be rich.

De 21:20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.

Pr 6:9 How long wilt thou sleep, O sluggard? when wilt thou arise out of thy sleep?

Pr 6:10 Yet a little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to sleep:

Pr 6:11 So shall thy poverty come as one that travelleth, and thy want as an armed man.

Pr 19:15 Slothfulness casteth into a deep sleep; and an idle soul shall suffer hunger.

Pr 24:30 I went by the field of the slothful, and by the vineyard of the man void of understanding;

Pr 24:31 And, lo, it was all grown over with thorns, and nettles had covered the face thereof, and the stone wall thereof was broken down.

Pr 24:32 Then I saw, and considered it well: I looked upon it, and received instruction.

Pr 24:33 Yet a little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to sleep:

Pr 24:34 So shall thy poverty come as one that travelleth; and thy want as an armed man.

Then there is this group of the poor that are in the favor of God.

James 2:5 (KJV) Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

Jas 1:9 Let the brother of low degree rejoice in that he is exalted:

Isa 14:32 What shall one then answer the messengers of the nation? That the LORD hath founded Zion, and the poor of his people shall trust in it.

Isa 29:19 The meek also shall increase their joy in the LORD, and the poor among men shall rejoice in the Holy One of Israel.

Zep 3:12 I will also leave in the midst of thee an afflicted and poor people, and they shall trust in the name of the LORD.

Zec 11:7 And I will feed the flock of slaughter, even you, O poor of the flock. And I took unto me two staves; the one I called Beauty, and the other I called Bands; and I fed the flock.

Zec 11:11 And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the LORD.

Mt 11:5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.

Lu 6:20 And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God.

Lu 9:57 And it came to pass, that, as they went in the way, a certain man said unto him, Lord, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest.

Lu 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

Lu 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

Joh 7:48 Have any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed on him?

1Co 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

1Co 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

1Co 1:28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

2Co 8:9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.

R
RobertW

I think it is important to contrast a biblical view of 'poor' with our modern ideals. The New Testament view is that we should be content with food and clothing. That sounds very radical today as a person with food, clothing, automobile and shelter could still be esteemed as 'poor' if those particular items did not contain a certain level of fashion and sophistication. [i]Functionality[/i] is simply not enough in our times. This has happened in part because western society no longer purchase items based solely on necessity- but on other variables linked to perceptions they have about what owning that item may mean. This is much of what drives the money machine of popular culture.

This is also how Mammon has become the Dagon of our times. Some years ago the BBC did a special on this issue. Paul Mazer of Lehman Brothers is quoted as having said, "We must shift America from a 'needs' to a 'desires' culture, people must be trained to desire, to want new things even before the old has been completely consumed . We must shape a new mentality in America, man's desires must overshadow his needs." Big bankers funded what later became known as department stores and we were well on our way to Mammon and materialism. I think it is ironic that Lehman Bros. were key in helping get this mess in full swing and they are no more. Who knows?

I don't often recommend secular programs for believers, but there are two that have opened my eyes a bit to why America is so materialistic. One is called, "The Century of Self" (BBC) and the other is, "The Merchants of Cool" (PBS). They are real eye openers for those of us that have not lived long enough to watch this all play out over time. There are relatively very few poor in America if we strip our minds of this materialistic paradigm and ask ourselves whether these have food and clothing?

Our greatest poverty is our lack of [i]contentment[/i] that cultivates an unthankful spirit and robs us of the satisfaction of enjoying what we have- because of our lust for something newer and better.

C
Compton

I think it is important to contrast a biblical view of 'poor' with our modern ideals.

There are relatively very few poor in America if we strip our minds of this materialistic paradigm and ask ourselves whether these have food and clothing?

Our greatest poverty is our lack of contentment that cultivates an unthankful spirit and robs us of the satisfaction of enjoying what we have- because of our lust for something newer and better.

Well said.

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi rookie...

The US spends $10,000,000,000.00 per month in sustaining the two wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Just think about all the material, fuel, equipment, rations, electricity, wages, bribes, and medical care that is dispensed in that month.

Now add that amount for 9 months straight. Again imagine all that $90,000,000,000.00 buys in sweat and tears.

The flaw in your argument is that you seem to be ignorant or unaware where all of the money is going. You make it sound like the bulk of that money is being spent on evil. Yet most of that money is being spent on a rebuilding program in Iraq. Not only is the US rebuilding the infrastructure of Iraq and Afghanistan, they are funding a democratic government at the same time.

Even the money spent in armed conflict is not being spent on agression. It is being spent on defense of the fledging government from the hands of militant Islamic terrorists who wish to impose their radical views upon all -- regardless of consent. The new Iraqi government is elected by the people. Ironically, a recent poll of the Iraqi people found that they think more highly of the peacekeeping efforts of the United States and its partners (btw, the actual "war" is over, and firepower is only used now to protect the people of Iraq) now than cynical liberals, isolationists or antiwar activists who voice their cynicism in public.

The last estimate that I read in a foreign policy journal showed that the bulk of the funding for the mission in Iraq was being spent on rebuilding the nation while protecting the newly elected government from the ever-shrinking terrorist insurgents.

...just something to think about.

R
rookie

Lev. 25:9 Then you shall cause the trumpet of the Jubilee to sound on the tenth day of the seventh month; on the Day of Atonement you shall make the trumpet to sound throughout all your land. 10 And you shall consecrate the fiftieth year, and proclaim liberty throughout all the land to all its inhabitants. It shall be a Jubilee for you; and each of you shall return to his possession, and each of you shall return to his family. 11 That fiftieth year shall be a Jubilee to you; in it you shall neither sow nor reap what grows of its own accord, nor gather the grapes of your untended vine. 12 For it is the Jubilee; it shall be holy to you; you shall eat its produce from the field.

Is God's law immoral when His word calls for a "spreading of the wealth?"

Beware of the vain philosophies of men, and the lie of Satan. Those who choose to remain simple will be tossed to and fro by these men...

In Christ
Jeff

R
rookie

rbanks cited Scripture which speaks of the poor in different light.

Yes there is a distinction made by Scripture. The Scripture teaches why some become poor because of not doing what Scripture calls one to do. And Scripture teaches about the poor who are of a clean heart. But Scripture also teaches about a third type of poor. This following Scripture points to this group and their lot in life...


Eccl. 5:8 If you see the oppression of the poor, and the violent perversion of justice and righteousness in a province, do not marvel at the matter; for high official watches over high official, and higher officials are over them.


It is this circumstance on which this thread is focused on. The article speaks about the immorality of leaders who promote the "spreading of wealth." On this notion I chose to respond.

We live in a time where our leaders have brought about "violent perversion of justice and righteousness" on the oppressed "poor."

The princes of our nation have created a entire "economy" based on "usury and extortion." The "poor" of the world are suffering under this oppression. The poor of India and China make toys for our children. The poor of Mexico make light switches for our homes. Why are we, the people of this nation, not manufacturing the things that we need?

Those who are the "high officials" have allowed this to happen. They have created "financial gimmicks" to oppress the poor and grind their faces into dust. And now these "high officials" don't know how to fix what they have broke.

These are the people that James wrote about...
James 5:1 Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries that are coming upon you! 2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are moth-eaten. 3 Your gold and silver are corroded, and their corrosion will be a witness against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have heaped up treasure in the last days. 4 Indeed the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, cry out; and the cries of the reapers have reached the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth. 5 You have lived on the earth in pleasure and luxury; you have fattened your hearts as in a day of slaughter. 6 You have condemned, you have murdered the just; he does not resist you.


God Bless
Jeff

R
rookie

Brother Robert mentioned watching the "Century of Self"

Thank you for taking the time to watch this documentary. I have been "pushing" people to "see" how Satan manipulates and destroys the "simple."

I have shown this to groups I lead in bible studies. The reason is to show how the princes of this nation "manipulate" and cause the poor to err into Satan's ways...

In Christ
Jeff

R
rookie

Brother Chris wrote:


The flaw in your argument is that you seem to be ignorant or unaware where all of the money is going. You make it sound like the bulk of that money is being spent on evil. Yet most of that money is being spent on a rebuilding program in Iraq. Not only is the US rebuilding the infrastructure of Iraq and Afghanistan, they are funding a democratic government at the same time.


I did not intend to use this event as a means to depict evil. I was responding to another brothers thoughts about the reality of where the money is going.


I used a real life event to compare the costs of the wars against those for the bailout of AIG.

In Christ
Jeff

K
KingJimmy


Paul Mazer of Lehman Brothers is quoted as having said, "We must shift America from a 'needs' to a 'desires' culture, people must be trained to desire, to want new things even before the old has been completely consumed . We must shape a new mentality in America, man's desires must overshadow his needs."


What an amazing quote. It reminds me of how Art Katz used to link modern day marketing as a tool of the principalities and powers, due to their influence over culture and their manipulative powers that pull on the strings of fallen humanity. For the principalities and powers rule by their ability to do what many marketers do. Thus, Katz was very weary of anything in "pop" culture that had massive appeal. For something to have massive appeal, as a general rule of thumb, must mean that it was in league with the powers of the air.

For marketers appeal to one's flesh... to one's "sensuality." That sensuality is not necessarily something that is erotic, but rather, the mere over stimulation of the flesh. Sometimes our desire to simply go "window shopping" is merely a feeding of that sensuality. We have to "see" something, and take a strange pleasure in merely doing so.


One is called, "The Century of Self" (BBC) and the other is, "The Merchants of Cool" (PBS). They are real eye openers for those of us that have not lived long enough to watch this all play out over time.


I'll have to check it out. I found on-line link to the show you can watch at: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/cool/ Hopefully they have a DVD available.


Our greatest poverty is our lack of contentment that cultivates an unthankful spirit and robs us of the satisfaction of enjoying what we have- because of our lust for something newer and better.


Amen. My brother in law once worked as a police officer in the "south side" of Statesville, where there is a lot of poverty and crime. He said he had been called out to many situations where upon entering the house of some "poor" individuals, he found folks in these tiny homes with 40 inch plasma screen TV's. Now, that doesn't describe everybody in that area by far. My church frequently helps people in that area that have a hard time making ends meet. However, as was suggested, "the poor among you" in our nation is far less that imagined. Especially when compared to the poor in other countries. Even our homeless population has clothes to wear!

K
KingJimmy


Paul Mazer of Lehman Brothers is quoted as having said, "We must shift America from a 'needs' to a 'desires' culture, people must be trained to desire, to want new things even before the old has been completely consumed . We must shape a new mentality in America, man's desires must overshadow his needs."


What's also amazing about this quote, from a banker of all people, is how anti-investment this quote is. In the last few months I have personally studied the world of the financial industry, and advice they give to people to do better for themselves... maybe even make it rich. They suggest being stingy with one's money, and not buying the things one wants, but simply the things one needs. The money they save by doing this, they suggest investing. Jonathan Hoening (founder of CapitalistPig.com), who frequents Fox News made his millions this way. He realized when he was 16 years old and working for Starbucks. He realized that his $4 could go a lot further and return more to him if he invested it in Starbucks than simply buy a Frappucino. By doing such, he was a millionaire by the time he was in his 20's. I imagine this banker that you quote from probably did the same thing. Yet, here he is encouraging society to go in the opposite direction he went. Rather hypocritical don't ya think? But, by doing such, the rich will get richer, and the poor will be poorer.

R
RobertW

But, by doing such, the rich will get richer, and the poor will be poorer.

Under our fractional reserve banking system bankers benefit from savings because they can lend out 10X or more what they have on deposit. I think what bankers want is for people to [i]borrow[/i] and then [i]spend[/i]. In this way they can ultimately profit on both the sale of the items and the interest they receive for the loan they gave you to buy those products. A microcosm of this behavior is found at the local furniture and TV rental places that benefit by both a sale and interest. To me it is the epitome of evil because it robs the poor (in a relative sense) of what little they have. Contentment is the antidote for this wretched disease.

[color=000066]And having food and raiment let us be therewith content. But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition. For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. (I Timothy 6:8-10)[/color]

I'm not sure if there is a stronger warning in scripture about any subject. Consider these words:

1) Erred from the faith
2) Pierced themselves through with 'many' sorrows
3) Fall into temptation and a snare
4) Fall into many foolish and hurtful lusts
5) Drown men in destruction and perdition

You will notice in Luke 3 that John Baptist put the ax at the root when he dealt with each people groups attitude towards their possessions. Mammon was also Judas' vice that ultimately destroyed him. I have often wondered about this passage:

[color=000066]Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God: Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee: With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures: [u]By thy great wisdom and by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches[/u], and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches: Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; (Ezekiel 28)[/color]

R
rookie

Brother Robert quoted:

Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God: Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee: With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures: By thy great wisdom and by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches: Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; (Ezekiel 28)

Throughout Scripture we find that there are two families. The Scripture above describes one who has followed his father Satan. The seed of Satan will take on the image of Lucifer that is described in Isaiah. Whether it is the prince of Tyrus or the son of Nebuchadnezzer (sp) we find that the nature and desires of these men's heart have gone in the way of Cain.

In Christ
Jeff

R
RobertW

Rookie's: Whether it is the prince of Tyrus or the son of Nebuchadnezzer (sp) we find that the nature and desires of these men's heart have gone in the way of Cain.

So with all of the writings in the New Testament and the revelations of the Old Testament that deal with wealth, why is the focus so strongly on other 'lesser' issues when scripture focuses on Mammon so much? I mean you will hear all kinds of messages but so few that put the ax on the root of the tree and challenge man's material gods.

S
sermonindex

Brother Robert states.....

"I mean you will hear all kinds of messages but so few that put the ax on the root of the tree and challenge man's material gods."

Amen brother. Two of the thickest roots in the Church in America is mammon and divorce. These two issues, and the leaders inability or desire to deal with them, has caused much damage. I think it is so difficult because divorce and ultimately Capitilism runs so counter to the word of God. Now I know that it may be the lesser of two evils and I am not promoting its poor cousin, Socialism, what I am saying is that at least we, the Christians, should be a counter culture and not a sub-culture.

Bottom line on capitilism?......Buy something you do not need with money that you do not have.........Frank

P.S I saw a bunch of rich guys one time on TV. They were giving tips on how to become and stay wealthy. They all had various ideas but the one that they all had in common? Live within your means. If you can "afford," a $500,000 house, buy a $200,000 house. If you can "afford," to drive a brand new Lexus, then drive a Ford. Of course this flies in the face of the Bankers advice, but is actually much more Biblical. "Learn to be content."

K
KingJimmy


Bottom line on capitilism?......Buy something you do not need with money that you do not have.........Frank


Now, why would the traditional church ever speak against anything like this? Most of our steeples have been setup by using a mortgage. I can't recall hearing about any church recently that paid for its facility in cash.

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Frank...

I think that there is a difference between capitalism and greed. The nation doesn't run on "capitalism" as a rule. It runs on a free market principles. It isn't that you must always want more, but that you have the freedom to say "enough."

Contrast this with socialism...or communism...where the government is allowed to tell you "enough" -- simply so that they can exchange your money for the votes and allegiance of the poor.

Do we really want to allow elected fellow citizens the right to say "enough" for each of us? The economy of this world is entirely different than it was in Jesus' day. You pay for your house even after it is "paid for" (via never-ending property taxes). Retirement at a certain age is now mandatory in some companies and life expectancies are much longer. People have to have an income to provide for them and their families long past retirement. Even the prodigal son's father had enough to leave a sizable inheritance to both of his sons. It isn't wrong to have "enough." It is wrong, however, to be greedy with it -- always lusting for more of this world for personal gain.

Socialism's call for the "redistribution of wealth" is actually a mask that causes the poor and lower incomed individuals to become greedy and covet the income, belongings and lifestyle of those who have more. This is easy for me to say because I don't have a lot (at least by American standards). I am content with God has provided, but still desire to provide adequately for my wife.

I think that the current embrace for the redistribution and spreading of wealth is a testament to just how greedy the lower incomes of this nation have become. Few people in this nation are actually "poor" by international standards. I remember looking at the government housing projects that were located next to my college. I used to go in there to spread the Good News and was amazed at how well those "poor" people were getting along. Some of them had big flat screen TVs, fancy furniture and even nice cars -- yet they were still demanding of so much more (and complaining about how unfair it was for some to actually have more). They wanted a redistribution of wealth -- not because they were hungry -- but because they were greedy. Most of them were certainly willing to trade a vote for such promises too.

Recap: There is a difference between pure capitalism (and/or a "free market") and greed. It is flawed to think differently.

R
RobertW

I think that there is a difference between capitalism and greed.

Yes. I think what we need to isolate are the driving forces behind our buying [i]and[/i] selling.

The documentary 'Merchants of Cool' helps expose man's desire to distinguish himself/herself from the others when they affirm the worth or importance allocated to certain things (clothing, cars, electronic devices, etc.) from the sake of ascendancy above their fellowman. Buying for the sake of being 'cooler' or 'more important', etc., is a pride based motivation. I think this is part of 'serving Mammon'.

Those that seek to profit from a popular culture by tempting others to submit to this paradigm has to likewise be sinful. At the very least it would be contributing to the problem.

I think we also need to ask ourselves to what extent do we trust the 'system' to be our source of provision. When Israel left Egypt they had to trust God for the most basic things such as food and water. Returning to Egypt means that folk seek the security of the ebb and flow of a predictable system of finance and provision. This is likely why so many are angry at the powers that be in our times. They lost their sense of security that 'Egypt' brings and have been forced to reckon with just who or what they will [i]ultimately[/i] trust.

S
sermonindex

As I stated, I have no intention of debating one "ism," with another "ism," it has never proven fruitful and glorifying to God in the past ....I think our brother Robertw says it best....

"I think we also need to ask ourselves to what extent do we trust the 'system' to be our source of provision."

You can pick your system and defend your own personal philosophy or choose to trust in God.....brother Frank

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Frank...

As I stated, I have no intention of debating one "ism," with another "ism," it has never proven fruitful and glorifying to God in the past ....I think our brother Robertw says it best....
No argument here. I'm just saying that there is a difference between those who incorrectly point to capitalism and a free market as a problem...when the problem itself is greed. Greed has been a problem under EVERY form of government and market. Remember the money changers...and tax collectors? They operated under a totalitarian empire called Rome. The root is greed, not an "ism."
You can pick your system and defend your own personal philosophy or choose to trust in God.....brother Frank
*Sigh. Thank you for your, uh, remark. Of course, those of us believers who truly love God yet also vote feel that we also trust in God. Sorry to bust that myth.

:-)

S
sermonindex

Hi Chris

Sorry for the sigh and the fact that you may have taken the "you," personally. That was you with a capital Y, meaning that you can put your trust in any sysyem, or you can put your trust in God, but you certainly cannot do both. Not sure why you mentioned voting?

Anyway, you are correct in your assertion about greed. The problem being, if one wanted to, one could easily make the argument that greed is the fuel that drives capitilism. I accept that many would have differing opinions on that statement , and it is only my opinion, as none of us speak infallibly on these issues.

Perhaps the main issue, as is always the case with the Church, is dependency upon God. The more we are dependent upon Him, the closer we will be to Him and the more like Jesus we will be. So, whatever it takes for the vast majority of Christians to become more dependent upon Him, I welcome that.

Chris, I would gladly debate Capitilism with you in PMs if you like? God bless you brother..............brother Frank

K
KingJimmy


The problem being, if one wanted to, one could easily make the argument that greed is the fuel that drives capitilism.


Indeed, which has led many to espouse the doctrine, as quoted in Michael Douglas's "Wall Street," that "greed is good." Greed is looked at as a virtue which acts as the driving force of the market. For "greed" is what drives many business people to start a business and expand it beyond a simple mom & pop operation. An expanding business thus creates jobs, which empowers people to be consumers of created products and services, which causes the wheels on the bus to go round and round.

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Frank...

Sorry about the sigh. Your comment sounded more like a directive rather than open commentary. I apologize for the misunderstanding.

Chris, I would gladly debate Capitilism with you in PMs if you like?

No need. I am quite confident that the problem with this nation...or any other nation...isn't in "capitalism." It is in greed. That is the root, but I would beg to differ that it is the seed for capitalism. Rather, I think that a free market is the soil upon which greed can grow into an ugly tree. Yes, freedom (even a free market) allows for some to abuse such a privilege. But it is likely a whole lot better than not having such an opportunity in the first place. The distribution of wealth is a first step into allowing a government (of consent?) to take honest income away from hard workers and give it to who they see fit (usually, in exchange for votes). It breeds greed. You see so many people who are not truly poor...and live comfortably...yet want so much more. They just don't want to work hard for it.

Both you and I practice "capitalism" if we have regular jobs...or if we sell products...or if we provide services. If we do a good job with our work (whether carpentry, fishing, tentmaking, or whatever), our products might be worth more than the sloppy jack-of-all-trades who works next door. A workman is worthy of his hire, you know.

I don't think that we can place our faith in man. But I think that it is incorrect to assume as much about believers who participate in a free market, capitalistic economy...or vote...etc... I only mention voting because many such discussions eventually deviate to accusations of as much (not talking about you or our conversations, dear brother). In the past, others have suggested that voting is an unscriptural deviation into the things of this world (as though we who choose to exercise this option don't actually pray about it or consider our faith entirely in the direction of our Lord Jesus Christ).

There are some of us who truly love and know the Lord, yet still choose to work in a job in this nation's capitalistic free market economy but still choose to store our true treasures in Heaven. There are some of us who choose to vote for one reason or another, yet still place our complete trust in the ways of God.

I just think that if we want to discuss such things, like you said, we don't need to focus on the "isms." We need to lay the axe to the root. The root has nothing to do with capitalism...or even socialism. It is with the dynamic of whether or not a government of the consent should take from those who work and give to those who might simply be greedy.

Remember: It is illegal for a person to starve to death...or go naked...or even have no place to lay their heads. Every state has laws that require cities and counties to provide for the poor. Homeless can easily go to a shelter...or even a local jail by their own accord (as directed by law) in order to find a bed, water, clothing and food. In a sense, there are very few real hungry in the United States (as compared with the rest of the world). In fact, the government releases lists of the causes of death in this nation. Deaths by starvation are so small that they are almost non-existant (at least, according to statistics released in 2004) -- especially when the stats are cross tabulated with those who starve themselves via anorexia or bulimia. It is still an important source of concern, but it is a strong contrast with other nations where people fend for themselves -- even if their government is supposed to provide for them.

We can all agree that the source of this problem is greed. Greed is the desire for more...a lack of contentment...covetting the things that others have in this world. May God allow us to be godly...and content!

:-)

C
Compton

On the eve of our glorious revolution, I would like to consider some additional biblical perspective on prosperity for the discussion here; the popular notion that greed is the driving force behind business is simplistic. Greed can never build a sustainable business, it only destroys it.

The plans of the diligent lead surely to advantage, But everyone who is hasty comes surely to poverty.

You must bring value to the marketplace or you will fail. Value and not greed is the driving force behind business.

When people see a news story exposing yet another major corporation brought to it's knees by greedy CEO's they are not seeing what built the business before the news cameras became interested...they are only seeing what has brought it down and are assuming that must have been what the business was built on. When people see greedy congressmen looting the country on the nightly news they are not at all seeing what built America, only what is destroying it.

I've been on the painful wrong end of this unavoidable truth, and on the happy good end of it as well. Whether you are an American, Japanese, or British businessman make no mistake about it...if you find an opportunity in a thriving sector and match skill with character you will prosper if you are not in a hurry to get rich. (Of course nothing is guaranteed, except if you have no skill or character, then it is guaranteed you will fail.) If you think being in executive leadership is your opportunity to take all the loot, to disenfranchise the people in your organization, and to cheat your customers instead of serve them, you will fail and go out of business. It is a mathematical certainty, that businessmen motivated primarily by greed are weeded out of the game. It may take longer in industries where the greedy leader walks into an established business instead of having to build it...but it will happen.

Gordon Gecko was just a movie character in a movie about inside Wall Street trading. As I remember, in Oliver Stones world, greed didn't work out for Gecko very well. In the real world greed doesn't do anybody any good either, even by the world's rules.

So please don't think that greed and a successful business are somehow linked. I've seen Christians who buy into this myth that all wealthy businessmen are selfish and corrupt. They cynically conclude that in order to carve a little piece of success for themselves they need to compromise like they think the world does it...and as a result their feet run faster to evil then the worldly business man who is lost but is bringing something of value to people.

Make no mistake about it...a lasting business is built on long term value and not short term greed. Not even the heathen can break that law...at least not without the support of some alternative revenue source saving them from failure.

MC

K
KingJimmy

Amen Compton :-)

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

There is a great message located on this website that speaks about greed -- including how it is taught by prosperity preachers.

In David Wilkerson's message entitled [i]Holy Ground[/i], he speaks about some misconceptions about greed. He argues that greed is often considered the sin of the rich. Yet Wilkerson, speaking from personal experience, explains that sometimes it is the American "poor" (who might not trubly be "poor") who are often guilty of coveting the things of this world. He states that he feels less covetous now than when he was a 23 year old preacher -- wanting and needing so much. Wilkerson explains that, like the writer of Ecclesiastes, many people who have tasted abundance understand the fleeting nature of it. The secret is to be grateful and content with everything that God has given.

I can't help but think how much this plays in a conversation about the "redistribution" of wealth. Most of the people who want this are not doing this out of true need -- but out of wanting so much more (greed). They point to those who are successful as being "greedy" when they, in fact, are the ones coveting the prosperity of the wealthy.

Our nation's "poor" are a far cry from the "poor" of most other nations. Our poor can get free food (via food stamps), free or low cost housing, free medical care, free clothing, free utilities, free college educations, and even free gasoline (in some states). Even our prisoners are provided clean beds, clean prison cells, hot and cold running water, TV, books, writing material and three nutricious meals per day (estimated to cost approximately $55K a year per prisoner). In many parts of the world, the "poor" are those who simply don't eat, have clean water or have a place to sleep.

If you ever have the opportunity to participate in a real missionary trip, do it! I remember my first trip into the rugged pine-covered mountains of the Sierra Madre Occidental in southwestern Chihuahua. We literally drove over trails on 4x4s -- many miles from "no where." The indigenous Tarahumara were literally starving from a drought that was affecting their water supply, their corn (their staple crop) and the few animals that live in the high elevation. I literally watched babies die. It was heart-wrenching! It finally began sleeting while we were there, and the Christians were meeting beneath a tree in the cold rain. Yet they were content. They knew little about life outside of those mountains. They lived in caves...and in small huts. There were no houses, bathrooms, telephones, or even slabs of concrete. In fact, there wasn't any electricity at all! Yet when those believers prayed to give thanks for the food that they were provided -- it touched me deeply. They didn't speak Spanish (let alone English), so I couldn't understand them. Yet their hearts were loud and clear. They were grateful to God for their abundance.

The missionary team worked hard to build a log cabin church building and a water pump. The believers and unbelievers alike were extremely grateful.

When I returned from that trip, I remember hearing a girl in my youth group complain about her parents not purchasing her a Christian CD that she wanted because her parents just didn't have the money. She stated, "I'm so tired of being poor!" It made me shiver. Her family was not rich (by American standards). Yet they had two cars, their own house, two parents at home, food in a refridgerator, a large back yard, electricity, running water, and two indoor bathrooms complete with toilet paper. Yet she complained about being poor.

It is a sad indictment on the people of America -- and the Church -- when people dwell on a misconception that they are poor...and that it is such a bad thing! I don't know anyone who is starving -- and I started a vibrant bus ministry with the poorest people in our college town. While those people were poor (compared with my lifestyle growing up), they were rich compared with the Tarahumara. Ironically, I found that many of the parents were the most covetous people I had ever encountered! Their "poor" condition was always someone else's fault. Some of them even justified stealing...as long as it was from the "rich" (anyone middle class and up).

In the great scheme of things, I think that greed is not confined to the rich or poor. It is the condition of a heart that wants more than what is necessary. It is the storing up of Manna in our tents...only to later discover that hording it causes it to turn into worms.

God help us to realize the abundance of which He has provided for us! And may we understand just how relative greed can be.

K
KingJimmy


Yet Wilkerson, speaking from personal experience, explains that sometimes it is the American "poor" (who might not trubly be "poor") who are often guilty of coveting the things of this world.


Indeed. I have seen the same.

R
rookie

Brother Robert wrote:

So with all of the writings in the New Testament and the revelations of the Old Testament that deal with wealth, why is the focus so strongly on other 'lesser' issues when scripture focuses on Mammon so much? I mean you will hear all kinds of messages but so few that put the ax on the root of the tree and challenge man's material gods.

The short answer can be found in Psalm 119:

Psa 119:127 Therefore I love Your commandments More than gold, yes, than fine gold!

Psa 119:128 Therefore all [Your] precepts [concerning] all [things] I consider [to be] right; I hate every false way. PE


This man has found that the word of God, the truth has become more valuable than gold. The word of God has given him the ability to "hate every false way."

Likewise Paul writes this warning...

2Th 2:9 The coming of the [lawless one] is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,

2Th 2:10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved"

Those who do not feed on the word of God, those who "choose" to remain simple, are easily deceived by Satan.

What I write next...out of time now...will help dig deeper into how Satan deceives the simple...

In Christ
Jeff


R
rookie

Eze 28:2 "Son of man, say to the prince of Tyre, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "Because your heart [is] lifted up, And you say, 'I [am] a god, I sit [in] the seat of gods, In the midst of the seas,' Yet you [are] a man, and not a god, Though you set your heart as the heart of a god

Eze 28:3 (Behold, you [are] wiser than Daniel! There is no secret that can be hidden from you!

Eze 28:4 With your wisdom and your understanding You have gained riches for yourself, And gathered gold and silver into your treasuries;

Eze 28:5 By your great wisdom in trade you have increased your riches, And your heart is lifted up because of your riches),"

In the above Scripture we find that God has judged the prince of Tyre...

1. What is the reason for this judgement?

2. What "activity" enabled the prince of Tyre?

IN Christ
Jeff

R
RobertW

1. What is the reason for this judgement?

Because he used his God given wisdom and God given resources as a means of exalting himself (in opposition to God) rather than using them to [i]glorify[/i] God. Satan had nothing that he had not received.

[color=000066]For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?(I Corinthians 4:7)[/color]

I think the same is true for Satan or anyone else.

R
rookie

Brother Robert wrote:

Because he used his God given wisdom and God given resources as a means of exalting himself (in opposition to God) rather than using them to glorify God. Satan had nothing that he had not received.

I agree with your point refering to the fact that judgement came because the prince of Tyre exalted himself.

With that said, I would like to draw a distinction about from whom did the king of Tyre receive his knowledge from...

In this Scripture...

Eze 28:12 "Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "You [were] the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

Eze 28:13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone [was] your covering: The sardius, topaz, and diamond, Beryl, onyx, and jasper, Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes Was prepared for you on the day you were created.

Eze 28:14 "You [were] the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.

Eze 28:15 You [were] perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you.


who is this in Scripture?


Jer 10:23 O LORD, I know the way of man [is] not in himself; [It is] not in man who walks to direct his own steps.

In Christ
Jeff

R
RobertW

who is this in Scripture?

I typically don't make a distinction between the King of Tyre and Satan because it seems to me that God is talking to the power behind the throne more than the king himself. It's almost as if at first it seems to be the king- but then it's almost like when Jesus told Peter to 'get behind me Satan'; He was talking [i]at[/i] Peter, but He was talking [i]to[/i] Satan.

R
rookie

Brother Robert wrote:


I typically don't make a distinction between the King of Tyre and Satan because it seems to me that God is talking to the power behind the throne more than the king himself.

I agree that this Scripture is focusing on the power behind the throne. I believe that the Scripture that I sighted is a depiction of the historical event of God creating Lucifer.

Ezekiel 28:

12 “Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, “Thus says the Lord GOD:
\t‘You were the seal of perfection,
\tFull of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 \tYou were in Eden, the garden of God;
\tEvery precious stone was your covering:
\tThe sardius, topaz, and diamond,
\tBeryl, onyx, and jasper,
\tSapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.
\tThe workmanship of your timbrels and pipes
\tWas prepared for you on the day you were created.
14 \t“You were the anointed cherub who covers;
\tI established you;
\tYou were on the holy mountain of God;
\tYou walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 \tYou were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,

In this section of Scripture we learn of God's creation of Lucifer who was created as "the anointed cherub who covers." The Scripture says this of the "anointed cherub" ...‘You were the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

Then we find this about this cherub...

17 \t“Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
\tYou corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor;

The wisdom that God has given this cherub was perfect, but then we find this judgement of God pronounced in Scripture..."You corrupted your wisdom.....

We know that in other Scripture Satan is called the father of lies. The things that he speaks comes from his own resources. We know that he holds sway of the kingdoms of this world.

We know that Satan tempted Jesus in the wilderness. Satan took Him up to a high place above the kingdoms of the earth and posed this suggestion...


Matt. 4:8 Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 And he said to Him, “All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me.”

Jesus rejected this temptation. But the King of Tyre did not. We see in this section of Scripture found in Ezekiel both a picture of the 'father of lies" and an 'obedient child of Satan. They have become one in nature spiritually. So that is why we see in Ezekiel both the earthly man and the power behind the throne.

I believe this Scripture speaks of the spiritual influence in the lives of men...

Jeremiah 10
23 \tO LORD, I know the way of man is not in himself;
\tIt is not in man who walks to direct his own steps.

The spirit of Satan or the Spirit of God is the power behind the man.

In Christ
Jeff

R
rookie

Eze 28:2 "Son of man, say to the prince of Tyre, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "Because your heart [is] lifted up, And you say, 'I [am] a god, I sit [in] the seat of gods, In the midst of the seas,' Yet you [are] a man, and not a god, Though you set your heart as the heart of a god

Eze 28:3 (Behold, you [are] wiser than Daniel! There is no secret that can be hidden from you!

Eze 28:4 With your wisdom and your understanding You have gained riches for yourself, And gathered gold and silver into your treasuries;

Eze 28:5 By your great wisdom in trade you have increased your riches, And your heart is lifted up because of your riches),"

And then....

Eze 28:16 "By the abundance of your trading You became filled with violence within, And you sinned; Therefore I cast you as a profane thing Out of the mountain of God; And I destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the fiery stones.

In this section of Scripture we find that the King of Tyre was lifed up by the riches that he had acquired through "trading." Notice how the corruption took place...

Eze 28:16 "By the abundance of your trading You became filled with violence within,

So it is the "action" of "trading" that has taught this king the wisdom of this world. The abundance of pursuing this "activity" has taught the king of Tyre to excell in the pursuit of treasures. He has begun to think of himself as a god...just like his father, Satan...

In Christ
Jeff

R
rookie

Now in this section of Scripture we find a list of what was traded by the King of Tyre...

Eze 27:12 "Tarshish [was] your merchant because of your many luxury goods. They gave you silver, iron, tin, and lead for your goods.

Eze 27:13 "Javan, Tubal, and Meshech [were] your traders. They bartered human lives and vessels of bronze for your merchandise.

Eze 27:14 "Those from the house of Togarmah traded for your wares with horses, steeds, and mules.

Eze 27:15 "The men of Dedan [were] your traders; many isles [were] the market of your hand. They brought you ivory tusks and ebony as payment.

Eze 27:16 "Syria [was] your merchant because of the abundance of goods you made. They gave you for your wares emeralds, purple, embroidery, fine linen, corals, and rubies.

Eze 27:17 "Judah and the land of Israel [were] your traders. They traded for your merchandise wheat of Minnith, millet, honey, oil, and balm.

Eze 27:18 "Damascus [was] your merchant because of the abundance of goods you made, because of your many luxury items, with the wine of Helbon and with white wool.

Eze 27:19 "Dan and Javan paid for your wares, traversing back and forth. Wrought iron, cassia, and cane were among your merchandise.

Eze 27:20 "Dedan [was] your merchant in saddlecloths for riding.

Eze 27:21 "Arabia and all the princes of Kedar [were] your regular merchants. They traded with you in lambs, rams, and goats.

Eze 27:22 "The merchants of Sheba and Raamah [were] your merchants. They traded for your wares the choicest spices, all kinds of precious stones, and gold.

Eze 27:23 "Haran, Canneh, Eden, the merchants of Sheba, Assyria, [and] Chilmad [were] your merchants.

Eze 27:24 "These [were] your merchants in choice items--in purple clothes, in embroidered garments, in chests of multicolored apparel, in sturdy woven cords, which were in your marketplace.


Here is another section of Scripture to compare lists...

18:11 "And the merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her, for no one buys their merchandise anymore:


Rev 18:12 "merchandise of gold and silver, precious stones and pearls, fine linen and purple, silk and scarlet, every kind of citron wood, every kind of object of ivory, every kind of object of most precious wood, bronze, iron, and marble;


Rev 18:13 "and cinnamon and incense, fragrant oil and frankincense, wine and oil, fine flour and wheat, cattle and sheep, horses and chariots, and bodies and souls of men.


In Christ
Jeff

R
rookie

In these two sections of Scripture we find both past and future.

Eze 27:27 "Your riches, wares, and merchandise, Your mariners and pilots, Your caulkers and merchandisers, All your men of war who [are] in you, And the entire company which [is] in your midst, Will fall into the midst of the seas on the day of your ruin.

Eze 27:28 The common-land will shake at the sound of the cry of your pilots.

Eze 27:29 "All who handle the oar, The mariners, All the pilots of the sea Will come down from their ships [and] stand on the shore.

Eze 27:30 They will make their voice heard because of you; They will cry bitterly and cast dust on their heads; They will roll about in ashes;

Eze 27:31 They will shave themselves completely bald because of you, Gird themselves with sackcloth, And weep for you With bitterness of heart [and] bitter wailing.

Eze 27:32 In their wailing for you They will take up a lamentation, And lament for you: 'What [city is] like Tyre, Destroyed in the midst of the sea?

Eze 27:33 'When your wares went out by sea, You satisfied many people; You enriched the kings of the earth With your many luxury goods and your merchandise.

Eze 27:34 But you are broken by the seas in the depths of the waters; Your merchandise and the entire company will fall in your midst.

Eze 27:35 All the inhabitants of the isles will be astonished at you; Their kings will be greatly afraid, And [their] countenance will be troubled.

Eze 27:36 The merchants among the peoples will hiss at you; You will become a horror, and [be] no more forever.'"'"


The future will be like the past...


Rev 18:14 "The fruit that your soul longed for has gone from you, and all the things which are rich and splendid have gone from you, [fn] and you shall find them no more at all.

Rev 18:15 "The merchants of these things, who became rich by her, will stand at a distance for fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,

Rev 18:16 "and saying, 'Alas, alas, that great city that was clothed in fine linen, purple, and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls!

Rev 18:17 'For in one hour such great riches came to nothing.' Every shipmaster, all who travel by ship, sailors, and as many as trade on the sea, stood at a distance

Rev 18:18 "and cried out when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, 'What [is] like this great city?'

Rev 18:19 "They threw dust on their heads and cried out, weeping and wailing, and saying, 'Alas, alas, that great city, in which all who had ships on the sea became rich by her wealth! For in one hour she is made desolate.'

Rev 18:20 "Rejoice over her, O heaven, and [you] holy apostles [fn] and prophets, for God has avenged you on her!"

Rev 18:21 Then a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw [it] into the sea, saying, "Thus with violence the great city Babylon shall be thrown down, and shall not be found anymore.

Rev 18:22 "The sound of harpists, musicians, flutists, and trumpeters shall not be heard in you anymore. No craftsman of any craft shall be found in you anymore, and the sound of a millstone shall not be heard in you anymore.

Rev 18:23 "The light of a lamp shall not shine in you anymore, and the voice of bridegroom and bride shall not be heard in you anymore. For your merchants were the great men of the earth, for by your sorcery all the nations were deceived.

Rev 18:24 "And in her was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth."

Listen carefully to what Solomon says of man....


Ecc 1:8 All things [are] full of labor; Man cannot express [it.] The eye is not satisfied with seeing, Nor the ear filled with hearing.

Ecc 1:9 That which has been [is] what will be, That which [is] done is what will be done, And [there is] nothing new under the sun.

Ecc 1:10 Is there anything of which it may be said, "See, this [is] new"? It has already been in ancient times before us.

Ecc 1:11 [There is] no remembrance of former [things,] Nor will there be any remembrance of [things] that are to come By [those] who will come after.

In Christ
Jeff

R
RobertW

Hi Jeff,

Thanks for sharing these posts. They have been a blessing.

I think of I John 2:16:

[color=000066]For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.[/color]

Paris Reidhead did a very good sermon on this subject that I [u]highly recommend[/u] and I like to call [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=38&commentView=itemComments]The Only 3 Tools Satan Ever Had, [/url] but is titled "The Dangers of Third Generation Religion." It is a must hear for everyone. For the close listener it goes right along with this subject.

R
rookie

In this section of Scripture we find that many nations participate in the buying and selling of things and men's souls...

This is a discription of world wide involvement in the trading and selling....


Eze 27:4 Your borders [are] in the midst of the seas. Your builders have perfected your beauty.

Eze 27:5 They made all [your] planks of fir trees from Senir; They took a cedar from Lebanon to make you a mast.

Eze 27:6 [Of] oaks from Bashan they made your oars; The company of Ashurites have inlaid your planks [With] ivory from the coasts of Cyprus. [fn]

Eze 27:7 Fine embroidered linen from Egypt was what you spread for your sail; Blue and purple from the coasts of Elishah was what covered you.

Eze 27:8 "Inhabitants of Sidon and Arvad were your oarsmen; Your wise men, O Tyre, were in you; They became your pilots.

Eze 27:9 Elders of Gebal and its wise men Were in you to caulk your seams; All the ships of the sea And their oarsmen were in you To market your merchandise.

Eze 27:10 "Those from Persia, Lydia, [fn] and Libya [fn] Were in your army as men of war; They hung shield and helmet in you; They gave splendor to you.

Eze 27:11 Men of Arvad with your army [were] on your walls [all] around, And the men of Gammad were in your towers; They hung their shields on your walls [all] around; They made your beauty perfect.

Eze 27:12 "Tarshish [was] your merchant because of your many luxury goods. They gave you silver, iron, tin, and lead for your goods.

Eze 27:13 "Javan, Tubal, and Meshech [were] your traders. They bartered human lives and vessels of bronze for your merchandise.

Eze 27:14 "Those from the house of Togarmah traded for your wares with horses, steeds, and mules.

Eze 27:15 "The men of Dedan [were] your traders; many isles [were] the market of your hand. They brought you ivory tusks and ebony as payment.

Eze 27:16 "Syria [was] your merchant because of the abundance of goods you made. They gave you for your wares emeralds, purple, embroidery, fine linen, corals, and rubies.

Eze 27:17 "Judah and the land of Israel [were] your traders. They traded for your merchandise wheat of Minnith, millet, honey, oil, and balm.

Eze 27:18 "Damascus [was] your merchant because of the abundance of goods you made, because of your many luxury items, with the wine of Helbon and with white wool.

Eze 27:19 "Dan and Javan paid for your wares, traversing back and forth. Wrought iron, cassia, and cane were among your merchandise.

Eze 27:20 "Dedan [was] your merchant in saddlecloths for riding.

Eze 27:21 "Arabia and all the princes of Kedar [were] your regular merchants. They traded with you in lambs, rams, and goats.

Eze 27:22 "The merchants of Sheba and Raamah [were] your merchants. They traded for your wares the choicest spices, all kinds of precious stones, and gold.

Eze 27:23 "Haran, Canneh, Eden, the merchants of Sheba, Assyria, [and] Chilmad [were] your merchants.

There are builders, men of war, pilots, oarsmen, traders and merchants involved in this "activity." This "activity" has spread all over the world. The stronghold city of Tyre is the center of this "activity."


Eze 27:27 "Your riches, wares, and merchandise, Your mariners and pilots, Your caulkers and merchandisers, All your men of war who [are] in you, And the entire company which [is] in your midst, Will fall into the midst of the seas on the day of your ruin.

Eze 27:33 'When your wares went out by sea, You satisfied many people; You enriched the kings of the earth With your many luxury goods and your merchandise.

Rev 18:14 "The fruit that your soul longed for has gone from you, and all the things which are rich and splendid have gone from you, [fn] and you shall find them no more at all.


Listen to what Scripture says about the longing for luxury goods, and those things this world finds precious....

In Christ
Jeff

L
LoveGodsWay2


http://christianpost.com/article/email/20081109/american-idol.htm

G
GodsFire

We have before us exactly what we asked for, but this has been the way it has always been, even before Mr Bush.....

Let us not panic now, we should have been panicked long ago.

Let us not make an issue out of Mr Obama, he is just a man set up for the day of evil, yet chosen by the people< WOW, so what does that make us as a whole....

Our hearts weren't necessarly looking for God, it was looking for a RIGHT Leader........... And we set up an Idol in the process....


My sentiment is as all of our, Let us pray, but not in panic, but rather it has always been this way, at least as long as we have had NO national reviving or times of refreshing....

Remember the documented and confirmed scattered occurences of revival were inspite and despite of who or what kind of leader we have suffered under or had.


In Christ

The fire

R
rookie

Brother Robert wrote:


Paris Reidhead did a very good sermon on this subject that I highly recommend and I like to call The Only 3 Tools Satan Ever Had, but is titled "The Dangers of Third Generation Religion." It is a must hear for everyone. For the close listener it goes right along with this subject.


As I walked to work this morning I listened to the first 30 minutes of the sermon. Brother, the word of God continues to unravel His mysteries. This morning reminded me of Daniel's dream and how as the days passed God continued to send His messengers to bring clarity to Daniel.

Thankyou Brother Robert...another "angel"

In Christ
Jeff

R
rookie

Here is another passage of Scripture which describes the "nature or activity that has brought the City of Tyre" to exault itself above men...

Isa 23:1 The burden against Tyre. Wail, you ships of Tarshish! For it is laid waste, So that there is no house, no harbor; From the land of Cyprus [fn] it is revealed to them.

Isa 23:2 Be still, you inhabitants of the coastland, You merchants of Sidon, Whom those who cross the sea have filled. [fn]

Isa 23:3 And on great waters the grain of Shihor, The harvest of the River, [fn] [is] her revenue; And she is a marketplace for the nations.


Tyre is the "marketplace for the nations."


Likewise in this Scripture we find that due to this "activity" the City of Tyre has...

Zec 9:3 For Tyre built herself a tower, Heaped up silver like the dust, And gold like the mire of the streets.


Another city that resembled Tyre is found in this Scripture...

Gen 11:1 Now the whole earth had one language and one speech.

Gen 11:2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar, and they dwelt there.

Gen 11:3 Then they said to one another, "Come, let us make bricks and bake them thoroughly." They had brick for stone, and they had asphalt for mortar.

Gen 11:4 And they said, "Come, let us build ourselves a city, and a tower whose top is in the heavens; let us make a name for ourselves, lest we be scattered abroad over the face of the whole earth."

Gen 11:5 But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower which the sons of men had built.

Gen 11:6 And the LORD said, "Indeed the people [are] one and they all have one language, and this is what they begin to do; now nothing that they propose to do will be withheld from them.


For those who know Scripture well...do you see where this is all leading to?

In Christ
Jeff

R
rookie

Listen to this short story in Scripture...


Is. 23:15 Now it shall come to pass in that day that Tyre will be forgotten seventy years, according to the days of one king. At the end of seventy years it will happen to Tyre as in the song of the harlot:
16 \t“Take a harp, go about the city,
\tYou forgotten harlot;
\tMake sweet melody, sing many songs,
\tThat you may be remembered.”

Is. 23:17 And it shall be, at the end of seventy years, that the LORD will deal with Tyre. She will return to her hire, and commit fornication with all the kingdoms of the world on the face of the earth. 18 Her gain and her pay will be set apart for the LORD; it will not be treasured nor laid up, for her gain will be for those who dwell before the LORD, to eat sufficiently, and for fine clothing.

Above is the beginning of this story...and now what follows occurs after the captivity was brought back to their land at the end of the 70 year exile.


Neh. 13:15 In those days I saw people in Judah treading wine presses on the Sabbath, and bringing in sheaves, and loading donkeys with wine, grapes, figs, and all kinds of burdens, which they brought into Jerusalem on the Sabbath day. And I warned them about the day on which they were selling provisions. 16 Men of Tyre dwelt there also, who brought in fish and all kinds of goods, and sold them on the Sabbath to the children of Judah, and in Jerusalem.

Neh. 13:17 Then I contended with the nobles of Judah, and said to them, “What evil thing is this that you do, by which you profane the Sabbath day? 18 Did not your fathers do thus, and did not our God bring all this disaster on us and on this city? Yet you bring added wrath on Israel by profaning the Sabbath.”

Neh. 13:19 So it was, at the gates of Jerusalem, as it began to be dark before the Sabbath, that I commanded the gates to be shut, and charged that they must not be opened till after the Sabbath. Then I posted some of my servants at the gates, so that no burdens would be brought in on the Sabbath day. 20 Now the merchants and sellers of all kinds of wares lodged outside Jerusalem once or twice.

Neh. 13:21 Then I warned them, and said to them, “Why do you spend the night around the wall? If you do so again, I will lay hands on you!” From that time on they came no more on the Sabbath. 22 And I commanded the Levites that they should cleanse themselves, and that they should go and guard the gates, to sanctify the Sabbath day.

Remember me, O my God, concerning this also, and spare me according to the greatness of Your mercy!


Do you see the evidence of the "Harlot" at work once again? What is the nature of this evidence?

In Christ
Jeff

R
rookie

Is. 23:15 Now it shall come to pass in that day that Tyre will be forgotten seventy years, according to the days of one king. At the end of seventy years it will happen to Tyre as in the song of the harlot:

16 “Take a harp, go about the city,
You forgotten harlot;
Make sweet melody, sing many songs,
That you may be remembered.”

Is. 23:17 And it shall be, at the end of seventy years, that the LORD will deal with Tyre. She will return to her hire, and commit fornication with all the kingdoms of the world on the face of the earth.

The Scriptures say that this harlot will be allowed to sing her songs once again in the city of Tyre. "She will return to her hire, and commit fornication with all the kingdoms of the world on the face of the earth."

This is past, and is now, and will be in the future...

Rev 18:3 For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth have become rich through the abundance of her luxury."

The harlot of Tyre is this harlot in Revelation...

She sings her songs. She lures the simple. She deceives many by the lie....many are enticed to walk her path which leads men to waste their strength on things that are vain. Her ways lead to iniquity and violence...

Pro 5:3 For the lips of an immoral woman drip honey, And her mouth [is] smoother than oil;

Pro 5:4 But in the end she is bitter as wormwood, Sharp as a two-edged sword.

Pro 5:5 Her feet go down to death, Her steps lay hold of hell. [fn]

Pro 5:6 Lest you ponder [her] path of life-- Her ways are unstable; You do not know [them].

Pro 5:7 Therefore hear me now, [my] children, And do not depart from the words of my mouth.

Pro 5:8 Remove your way far from her, And do not go near the door of her house,

Pro 5:9 Lest you give your honor to others, And your years to the cruel [one];

Pro 5:10 Lest aliens be filled with your wealth, And your labors [go] to the house of a foreigner;

Pro 5:11 And you mourn at last, When your flesh and your body are consumed,


In Christ
Jeff

R
RobertW

I was speaking along the lines of materialism and consumerism a bit Sunday Morning and a brother commented at the end about Ravi Zacharias' [url=http://htod.cdncon.com/o2/rzimht/MP3/LMPT/LMPTCD134-2.mp3]Saturday Evening Program. [/url] Ravi states towards the latter half of the message that he wonders if God views America's game shows as just as pornographic as sensual programming because of the ways that the eyes glisten and the crowd goes wild at the thought of winning a car or a boat. It is an observation I have shared for some time, but it is refreshing to hear it on mainstream Christian radio. Materialism is the form of lust (covetousness) that generally goes [u]un[/u]rebuked in our times.

R
rookie

Imagine the eyes of those who obeyed the King of Babylon 2400 years ago...

Dan 3:4 Then a herald cried aloud: "To you it is commanded, O peoples, nations, and languages,

Dan 3:5 that at the time you hear the sound of the horn, flute, harp, lyre, and psaltery, in symphony with all kinds of music, you shall fall down and worship the gold image that King Nebuchadnezzar has set up;

Dan 3:6 and whoever does not fall down and worship shall be cast immediately into the midst of a burning fiery furnace."

Dan 3:7 So at that time, when all the people heard the sound of the horn, flute, harp, [and] lyre, in symphony with all kinds of music, all the people, nations, and languages fell down [and] worshiped the gold image which King Nebuchadnezzar had set up.


Imagine the daily playing of the song...nations and peoples and tongues... stopping and bowing down to the image made of gold that stood in the province of Babylon. They are surrounded by the things that earthly man treasures. They are trained to sing a song that the harlot has spread throughtout the kingdom.

Just imagine...the vainity of it all.

In Christ
Jeff

R
RobertW

I had a thought today I have not had before. You will notice that the world is described as the:

1) The lust of the flesh (pleasure)
2) lust of the eyes (possessions)
3) pride of life (popularity)

This is an ungodly and unholy trinity at odds with the One True God. If you ask what is the world, the answer is these 3, but the 3 are actually 1. This is the god of this world manifest.

This is where the unregenerate find pleasure.
This is where the unregenerate have their treasure (possessions).
This is where the unregenerate develop their sense of identity (popularity).

This is what the unregenerate 'trusts' in. I guess I'm just a day late and a dollar short sometimes, but it seems to me that this world system that is growing in strength like a huge black hole- is drawing many into itself in a deeper and deeper way. Even believers are leaving off trusting God and finding their pleasure, treasure and identity in this world and being increasingly drawn into it.


R
RobertW

I had a separate thought that this world is coming together like a global city. It is like we are headed for a world wide [u]city[/u] of Babylon.

R
rookie

1Jo 2:14 I have written to you, fathers, Because you have known Him [who is] from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, Because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, And you have overcome the wicked one.

1Jo 2:15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

1Jo 2:16 For all that [is] in the world--the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life--is not of the Father but is of the world.

1Jo 2:17 And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.


Brother Robert...

I see a little more clearly based on the thoughts you shared...

John writes...

Because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, And you have overcome the wicked one...then in the next verse....

Do not love the world or the things in the world...

then he writes....
For all that [is] in the world--the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life--is not of the Father but is of the world.

For ........all..........that is in the world....the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life...is of this world

And the world is passing away, and the lust of it...



It is like we are headed for a world wide city of Babylon.

...we see cities building towers all over this earth....each competing to build higher than the rest....Chicago, New York, Taipei, Dubai, Shanghi, Nanjing, Hong Kong, Kuala Lampur....

Just a thought

In Christ
Jeff

R
rookie

Another thought...as a side note...

Rev 17:15 Then he said to me, "The waters which you saw, where the harlot sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues.

Rev 17:16 And the ten horns which you saw on [fn] the beast, these will hate the harlot, make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire.

Rev 17:17 For God has put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled.

Rev 17:18 And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth."

Rev 18:1 After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illuminated with his glory.

Rev 18:2 And he cried mightily [fn] with a loud voice, saying, "Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and has become a dwelling place of demons, a prison for every foul spirit, and a cage for every unclean and hated bird!

Rev 18:3 For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth have become rich through the abundance of her luxury."

Look closely...the ten kings destroy the harlot...

that brings to mind the destruction of the World Trade Center in New York. The towers that were destroyed represented 'world trade.' The prince responsible for the action does not have a kingdom. By his actions, he hates the harlot.

Just a thought...

In Christ
Jeff

R
RobertW

that brings to mind the destruction of the World Trade Center in New York. The towers that were destroyed represented 'world trade.'

The Babylon is Fallen passage came strongly to mind as I watched the Towers Fall. I have wondered about it and have had other tell me that's what they thought also.


S
sermonindex

Here is what the creator of the towers had to say about them upon their completion....

"I feel this way about it. World trade means world peace and consequently the World Trade Center buildings in New York ... had a bigger purpose than just to provide room for tenants. The World Trade Center is a living symbol of man's dedication to world peace ... beyond the compelling need to make this a monument to world peace, the World Trade Center should, because of its importance, become a representation of man's belief in humanity, his need for individual dignity, his beliefs in the cooperation of men, and through cooperation, his ability to find greatness."

— Minoru Yamasaki

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hello...

that brings to mind the destruction of the World Trade Center in New York. The towers that were destroyed represented 'world trade.'
I don't think that those towers represented "world trade" to the Islamic terrorists who used a couple of US airplanes filled with foreign oil to destroy them. To the terrorists, those towers represented American financial superiority (according to the taped confessions that they left behind).

On the other hand, the twin towers were part of "World Trade Center" (a collection of other towers housing offices for international commerce). There are other "world trade centers" in cities throughout the United States (and in other parts of the world).

Is there a problem with trading with the rest of the world? World trade, so to speak, has existed long before anyone discovered the western world. In fact, one could argue that the desire for world trade (in particular, safe routes to Indian and Chinese spices) was the reason Christopher Columbus sailed in the first place.

I understand that God will allow "Babylon the Great" to be destroyed. But do you suppose that God will allow this solely as a judgment against trade? Or is the "trade" part just a by-product of the destruction of that place?

I have heard many preachers preach on "Babylon the great." I have heard them preach emphatically that the Babylon spoken of in the book of Revelation is everything from New York, America, San Francisco, the Catholic Church (or the Vatican in Rome), a physically recreated "Babylon" in Iraq, and even the extensive financial system of this world. The Bible is not entirely clear about where this "Babylon" is located (although the "seven hills" does seem to physically indict "he city of seven hills," Rome).

For the past year, I have been thinking about the creation of a European Union...along with a single European country. The Euro is an extremely strong currency (rising for years against the dollar, but much less stable). We know that the Antichrist will rise, not from a one world government, but as a leader of a 10 nation confederation (how many nations are part of the European Union?) that will cause anyone who buys or sells to take a mark on their right hand or forehead. I know that Babylon sounds an awful lot like the America of today (and even the Rome of John's day), but it makes me wonder if a radical shift could cause Europe to become the premiere world economic power?

C
Compton

I know that Babylon sounds an awful lot like the America of today (and even the Rome of John's day), but it makes me wonder if a radical shift could cause Europe to become the premiere world economic power?

Well, as long we're speculating ;-) ...who says that the revived empire the prophets foresaw excluded the United States? In some important ways we are intertwined with Europe as much as any European nation.

Certainly Militarily speaking the US is vital for the defense of Europe, and it will be many decades before that can change even with a strong Euro. France and Germany are planning on using no more than 1.4 of their GDP on military spending through 2012, a low number made possible by being benefactors of The United States military investment of 4.6 GDP. This could imply that Europe and the US are closer to being joined then we might want to admit. In short, for the 21st century, militarily speaking, we are one alliance.

From that perspective, and from a cultural perspective, we Americans might make more hullabaloo of our Declaration of Independence from Continental Europe then perhaps heaven does. Some have speculated that since the US isn't mentioned specifically in scripture that we must necessarily become irrelevant through war or economic collapse. I think there might be a different explanation for a lack of specific reference to the US in scripture. After-all, other European nations such as France and Germany aren't mentioned by name either. In a world with many emerging non-western powers, the different western nations may simply have been viewed by ancient prophets as different parts of a single western empire.

Of course, I don't take myself that seriously when I speculate like this. :smart:

MC

R
rookie

Brother Chris wrote:


Is there a problem with trading with the rest of the world? World trade, so to speak, has existed long before anyone discovered the western world. In fact, one could argue that the desire for world trade (in particular, safe routes to Indian and Chinese spices) was the reason Christopher Columbus sailed in the first place


Have you studied the Scriptures that have been posted in this thread? Have you studied Isaiah 23, Ezekiel 26, 27, 28, Revelation 17, 18 and the book of Daniel? These are some of the Scriptures this thread is covering....

What do the Scriptures say about "world trade" in relation to the harlot?

In Christ
Jeff

R
RobertW

I understand that God will allow "Babylon the Great" to be destroyed. But do you suppose that God will allow this solely as a judgment against trade? Or is the "trade" part just a by-product of the destruction of that place?

I think a simple answer is that God will ultimately deal with the world [i]itself[/i] (that includes its participants) that has set itself up to [i]exist[/i] (sustain itself) and find its [i]fulfillment[/i] [u]independent of Him[/u].

Man has been attempting since the beginning to build a city that does not include God or 'need' God. A system that can take His creation and the various laws in which it works and build itself a life [i]apart[/i] from Him; to utilize the creation to ignore, deny and rebel against their Creator.

'World' trade has certainly always existed, but so has world communication. The question is, do we see an increase in the proficiency of communication (and trade). I think the answer is a resounding 'yes'. We are moving swiftly towards Genesis 11:

[color=000066]
And the LORD came down to see the city and [u]the tower[/u], which the children of men builded.

Gen 11:6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: [u]and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.[/u]

Gen 11:7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

Gen 11:8 So [u]LORD scattered them abroad[/u] from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city. [/color]

They 'left off' to build something that God knew was a threat to His original design for man. His design was fellowship, but a 'city' would serve to lock men into the system that we see today that is making it more and more difficult every day to see men and women come to repentance. There is something about the 'world' that is growing stronger and stronger by the minute. Easier and more convenient to 'trust' and more and more proficient at serving mans base desires.

I submit that this is why the world is plunging more and more into darkness. We need to recognize the power that the world is drawing to itself. We need to see that Babylon is rising and the thing that God sought to prevent in Genesis 11 is [u]rising[/u]. Our evangelism efforts are becoming more challenging because the world is taking a greater and greater hold of the minds and hearts of people than it ever has before. this is one of the most sobering realities we can possibly ponder right now and it behooves us to seek God for a solution. God bless all those men and women of God that have gone before us, but we need a fresh word from God in our times to deal with [u]our situation[/u]. I dare say even the old timers would be utterly staggered by the growing [b]strength[/b] the world wields upon the minds of man in 2008. It is accelerating its draw upon minds and hearts.

G
ginnyrose

but so has world communication. The question is, do we see an increase in the proficiency of communication (and trade). I think the answer is a resounding 'yes'. We are moving swiftly towards Genesis 11:

On Thursday a friend and I went to a neighboring college town to visit an Indian lady that became a Christian this summer. She also had another Indian lady, Vijitha, living with her. She spoke English with very little accent - by southern standards! ;-) and she has been in the states only three years! This sparked a conversation about the English language, how it is spoken universally. She said one could go to India, not know the native language and get around quite well just knowing English!

Then, then - my mind went to the verses Robert shared:
Gen 11:6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

Gen 11:7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one anther's speech.

Gen 11:8 So LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.

Now I wonder whether the wide spread knowledge of English will be used to facilitate this whole scenario of one-world government and trade (which is already happening). Vijitha said knowledge of English is essential to getting around in the business world...

Made me shudder a tad bit...felt like I was seeing the fulfillment of prophecy right before my eyes!

ginnyrose

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi rookie...

Have you studied the Scriptures that have been posted in this thread? Have you studied Isaiah 23, Ezekiel 26, 27, 28, Revelation 17, 18 and the book of Daniel? These are some of the Scriptures this thread is covering....
Yes, I have read these passages (even before I read this thread).
What do the Scriptures say about "world trade" in relation to the harlot?
But this isn't an answer to my question. We know that the "Babylon the great" was a center for trade. But is trade in and of itself evil?

If you think that it is, I would suggest removing ANYTHING that was purchased that is even remotely tied to world trade. In today's society, that includes most cars (even portions of many "American" cars), computers, clothing, shoes, socks, food, gasoline, household goods, and even paper.

My point is this: Trade is probably NOT the reason that the great whore will be destroyed. In fact, trade is not even evil in and of itself.

One brother put it well: [i]As long as we are speculating...[/i] Much of the teaching on Bible prophecy is, at best, speculation. It might be EDUCATED speculation (and even speculation that comes from prayer). Nevertheless, it is speculation. In many of today's churches, we have people who preach such speculation (and other assumptions) as doctrinal fact (i.e., Jesus went to Hell after death; there are TWO judgment days; etc...). Teachers hear something that sounds quite plausible, and then they teach it as if it is undeniable. The problem with theories about the identity of Babylon the Great is that many teachings simply disagree with other teachings. Is Babylon America (or New York, Rome, London, San Francisco, a corrupt religious system, a corrupt confederation of governments, etc...)? I think we should teach the possibilities...but we might be good to hesitate before proclaiming anything definitive.

Anyway, I am sure that you guys already agree with this, so I am probably "preaching to the choir."

;-)

S
sermonindex

Brother Robert writes........

"Our evangelism efforts are becoming more challenging because the world is taking a greater and greater hold of the minds and hearts of people than it ever has before. this is one of the most sobering realities we can possibly ponder right now and it behooves us to seek God for a solution. God bless all those men and women of God that have gone before us, but we need a fresh word from God in our times to deal with our situation. I dare say even the old timers would be utterly staggered by the growing strength the world wields upon the minds of man in 2008. It is accelerating its draw upon minds and hearts."

I tend to agree wholeheartedly with that. The only thing I may differ in is the fact that we "need a solution." I am not sure there is a solution. We are moving, ever closer, to the point of tribulation.

I like brother Comptons points as well. Especially the point about not taking himself to seriously :-) None of us really know how it is going to end and if we are in Christ ultimately it will not matter anyway. So, in that light, I believe that America could well be the "revived Roman Empire." This country was basically founded by Europeans and established. Then, we have all the ties to Europe that has already been mentioned. And finally we have a Roman form of Government, Senate and Senators and all :) We are sold out to the Greek notion of Democracy, so much so that it is used to defend war.

On a side note, as a man born and raised in Scotland(but now born of the Kingdom and a citizen of an other country) Scotland was never part of the old Roman Empire. Perhaps that is why we will see revival start here, a revival to prepare the Body for what is to come? .........Frank

R
RobertW

I have often thought about how God slowed the progress of evil by several measures in the book of Genesis almost all of which we have [u]now[/u] overcome or are very close to overcoming.

1) Man would work by the sweat of his face and eat bread instead of (primarily) fruit. This meant that man would have to till the soil and plant crops in order to eat. This is a lot more time consuming and labor intensive than eating of the fruit of the trees of the garden of Eden. This measure effectively forced man to redeem the time- for mere survival.

[color=000066] In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. (Genesis 3)[/color]

2) Woman would suffer in childbearing. This added a sense of suffering as well as concern for child birth. This brought tremendous sobriety to life during the term of a pregnancy.

[color=000066]Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. (Genesis 3)[/color]

3) God placed the earth in a state of 'inutility'. No longer would it function as it once did. The earth would become a dangerous place filled with hazards and unexpected calamities. This is part of the 'cursed' is the ground for thy sake thing. Life would now be filled with pain and suffering. This should serve the purpose of sobering the mind and bringing a conscious dependence on God for safety and provision.

4) Man's life spans were reduced to 120 years. A graphical chart before and after the great flood prove this point. Life spans dropped dramatically over the next 1000 years. This did two things:

a. It limited man's ability to reach his/her potential for evil. The number of years shaved from life reduced the ability of fallen man to utilize his/her mental abilities for an additional 700 years with all of those years of experimental and experiential evil to build upon.

b. It brought about a sense that life is short. Death came front and center into the minds of men. Couple this fact with the various hazards of life and man 'should' have been moved to rely upon God for mere survival with an eye on eternity.

5. God scattered the people and confounded the languages. Language has been a problem for thousands of years. But communication is unprecedented in our times and none would have ever imagined what level of communication we would someday reach. It simply did not exist- not even in the imaginations of men.


Based upon just the 5 items (and we could name several more), in what ways can you see that man has overcome these 'roadblocks' to evil?

R
rookie

Brother Robert...a side note...you wrote

"I had a thought today I have not had before. You will notice that the world is described as the:

1) The lust of the flesh (pleasure)
2) lust of the eyes (possessions)
3) pride of life (popularity)"


I was thinking about this this weekend...man is described as a three part being; body, soul, and spirit.

Is there a connection between how Satan temps man, and man's three part nature?

In Christ
Jeff

R
rookie

Brother Chris wrote:

But this isn't an answer to my question. We know that the "Babylon the great" was a center for trade. But is trade in and of itself evil?

I am sorry that I did not answer more clearly by what I wrote...

The Scriptures are given to us so that we might recognize or decern between what is good and what is evil.

Trade in itself does not imply evil. With that said, those who give their life to the 'harlot' will learn "iniquity and violence" by their participation in it. The activity of "trading" opens one up to the devices of Satan. Scripture teaches this very clearly in these verses...

Rev 17:1 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and talked with me, saying to me, [fn] "Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters,

Rev 17:2 with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication."


The kings committed "fornication" with the harlot. The "wine" of that fornication made the inhabitants drunk.

Now this "fornication" took place in Genesis 11. We also know that this "fornication" took place, according to Scripture during the time that Tyre rose up above the nations of earth becoming the center of this world trade activity. (Isaiah 23, Ezekiel 26,27,and 28)

Then we also have the book of Daniel and Revelation to feed on. Here we are given yet another description of the activity of "world trade," the building of cities, the prosperity of the inhabitants.

Satan took Jesus up to a high place above the kingdoms of earth and tempted Him, saying...All of this can be yours if you bow down to me....

The Scriptures are sufficient. They are given to enable us to recognize or discern the good and evil in "our own time."

In terms of "speculation" Jesus tells us to be watchful. He says that we will be able to see the fruit of the fig tree ripening....

Well today I see that the U.S. is the center of the "world trade" in debt. This debt is based on nothing but the "confidence" of those who have faith in this world system. I see the world is losing confidence in this contemporary system of "usury." I know that the world is convulsing due to the failure of this "world trade in debt."

The precepts in Scripture truly do enable us to see the violence, iniquity, and hoplessness of this system. Yet for those who drink the wine of the fornication created by the kings of today with the harlot, they will stumble in darkness, being frightened, dismayed. They will be used by the kings of this world, to secure the kings preemininence above other men. Nimrod was a hunter of men, Satan goes about like a roaring lion seeking those whom he may devour.

Sorry for the rant..

God Bless
Jeff

R
rookie

Getting back to the city of Tyre we find this...

Eze 27:10 "Those from Persia, Lydia, [fn] and Libya [fn] Were in your army as men of war; They hung shield and helmet in you; They gave splendor to you.

Eze 27:11 Men of Arvad with your army [were] on your walls [all] around, And the men of Gammad were in your towers; They hung their shields on your walls [all] around; They made your beauty perfect.


How does the army accomplish this..."They gave splendor to you"..."They made your beauty perfect"...

In Christ
Jeff

R
rookie

Here is another example of how armies will be used in the end days...

Dan. 11:9 “Also the king of the North shall come to the kingdom of the king of the South, but shall return to his own land. 10 However his sons shall stir up strife, and assemble a multitude of great forces; and one shall certainly come and overwhelm and pass through; then he shall return to his fortress and stir up strife.

Dan. 11:11 “And the king of the South shall be moved with rage, and go out and fight with him, with the king of the North, who shall muster a great multitude; but the multitude shall be given into the hand of his enemy. 12 When he has taken away the multitude, his heart will be lifted up; and he will cast down tens of thousands, but he will not prevail. 13 For the king of the North will return and muster a multitude greater than the former, and shall certainly come at the end of some years with a great army and much equipment.

Dan. 11:14 “Now in those times many shall rise up against the king of the South. Also, violent men of your people shall exalt themselves in fulfillment of the vision, but they shall fall. 15 So the king of the North shall come and build a siege mound, and take a fortified city; and the forces of the South shall not withstand him. Even his choice troops shall have no strength to resist. 16 But he who comes against him shall do according to his own will, and no one shall stand against him. He shall stand in the Glorious Land with destruction in his power.


Do you see that the masses of men will be led to drink the wine that is created by the fornication of the kings with the harlot. Men will be drunk with the wine. Violence and deception will permeate this age.

Read the last few chapters of Daniel. Pay attention to the length of time that this age will cover. Pay attention to the spoils of war. Pay attention to who is responsible for stirring up the nations of the world. And look for the overwhelming nature of Satan being manifested in the kings of this world...

This age will last for longer than many seem to expect...
In Christ
Jeff

R
rookie

The kings fornication with the harlot manifests itself in these Scriptures...

Dan 11:2 And now I will tell you the truth: Behold, three more kings will arise in Persia, and the fourth shall be far richer than them all; by his strength, through his riches, he shall stir up all against the realm of Greece.

Dan 11:10 However his sons shall stir up strife, and assemble a multitude of great forces; and [one] shall certainly come and overwhelm and pass through; then he shall return to his fortress and stir up strife.

Dan 11:25 "He shall stir up his power and his courage against the king of the South with a great army. And the king of the South shall be stirred up to battle with a very great and mighty army; but he shall not stand, for they shall devise plans against him.

Why do these kings "stir" the nations to destroy each other? As it was in the past so it will be in the future...

Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven saying, "Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.

What should we do with this exhortation from the Lord?

In Christ
Jeff

T
Tears_of_joy

Brethren, these are prophetic messages given by brother Art concering the days we are living, and days that are coming, I beg you to take time and listen to them.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=12182]The Tower of Babel[/url]

[url=http://artkatzministries.org/decade-of-the-nineties/]K-059_Decade_of_the_Nineties[/url]

Also:

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=10790]Christus Victor[/url]

R
rookie

Brother Kire,

Thankyou for sharing these sermons...

I listened to the first sermon this morning as I walked to work in the snow. As I listened to brother Art, the idea of building cities and towers, Scriptures came to mind which speak of man's craftsmanship and the idolatry that comes along with man's endeavors. All the effort that we expend building things that Solomon found to be worthless.

I look forward to listening to the other sermons.

God Bless
In Christ
Jeff

R
rookie

Dan 11:36 "Then the king shall do according to his own will: he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, shall speak blasphemies against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the wrath has been accomplished; for what has been determined shall be done.

Dan 11:37 He shall regard neither the God [fn] of his fathers nor the desire of women, nor regard any god; for he shall exalt himself above [them] all.

Dan 11:38 But in their place he shall honor a god of fortresses; and a god which his fathers did not know he shall honor with gold and silver, with precious stones and pleasant things.

Dan 11:39 Thus he shall act against the strongest fortresses with a foreign god, which he shall acknowledge, [and] advance [its] glory; and he shall cause them to rule over many, and divide the land for gain.


What motivates this king?

What and who does he worship?

What does he use to worship his god?

He is not alone...who shares in the iniquity and plagues of this man?

In Christ
Jeff

T
Tears_of_joy


rookie wrote:


Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven saying, "Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.

What should we do with this exhortation from the Lord?

In Christ
Jeff

Brother Jeff,

I believe that this is a question for life or death.

This scripture came to me:

Daniel 12:10 (King James Version)

Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

Who are the wise? And what kind of understanding it is required from them?

Kire

R
rookie

Brother Kire wrote:

"Who are the wise? And what kind of understanding is required from them?"


In line with the article this thread began with...we are discussing America's plight with our current economic system. So what understanding is required? Where do we go to find wisdom?

Deu 15:6 For the LORD your God will bless you just as He promised you; you shall lend to many nations, but you shall not borrow; you shall reign over many nations, but they shall not reign over you.

Now this is an example of God's economy. How does this promise compare to our current economic condition? Where do we as a nation find ourselves compared to the promise given to Israel?

In Christ
Jeff

P
psalm1

Any way you slice it the muslims have come on the scene in a big way.
With the combination of the liberals and the quiet infiltration of Muslim population,our demise,slow at first,is eminent.

A strong deception grips our once christian nation.
Passport anyone?

R
rookie

Psalm 1 wrote:

Any way you slice it the muslims have come on the scene in a big way.

Because our financial industry is established on usury, our nation, according to God's economy is founded on shifting sand. Yes we have become debtors to the muslim countries as well as the Asian countries.

Listen to the consequences or curses brought on Israel because they did not obey the voice of the Lord...I that time the nation is now known as Iraq.


Deu 28:43 "The alien who [is] among you shall rise higher and higher above you, and you shall come down lower and lower.

Deu 28:44 He shall lend to you, but you shall not lend to him; he shall be the head, and you shall be the tail.

Deu 28:45 "Moreover all these curses shall come upon you and pursue and overtake you, until you are destroyed, because you did not obey the voice of the LORD your God, to keep His commandments and His statutes which He commanded you.


Are we willing to acknowledge that our financial system is against God's economy and therefore a device of Satan.

In Christ
Jeff

R
rookie

This is one aspect of the Lord's economy...


Deu 15:1 "At the end of every seven years you shall grant a release of debts.


Deu 15:2 And this is the form of the release: Every creditor who has lent anything to his neighbor shall release it; he shall not require it of his neighbor or his brother, because it is called the LORD's release.


Deu 15:3 Of a foreigner you may require it; but you shall give up your claim to what is owed by your brother,


Deu 15:4 except when there may be no poor among you; for the LORD will greatly bless you in the land which the LORD your God is giving you to possess as an inheritance--


Deu 15:5 only if you carefully obey the voice of the LORD your God, to observe with care all these commandments which I command you today.


Deu 15:6 For the LORD your God will bless you just as He promised you; you shall lend to many nations, but you shall not borrow; you shall reign over many nations, but they shall not reign over you.

In the Lord's economy, this is how He prevents the men of usury from corrupting the world...

Before we can know what it is that ensnares us, we must first go to the word of God. The word of God will enable us to see His ways...are we willing to hear?


You may say...well this is not practical...no one has followed this precept...

Many saints have suffered because of unbelief.

IN Christ
Jeff

R
rookie

Why is God against the world system of usury?

Listen to the words of Scripture...


Ezek. 45:9 “Thus says the Lord GOD: ‘Enough, O princes of Israel! Remove violence and plundering, execute justice and righteousness, and stop dispossessing My people,” says the Lord GOD. 10 “You shall have honest scales, an honest ephah, and an honest bath. 11 The ephah and the bath shall be of the same measure, so that the bath contains one-tenth of a homer, and the ephah one-tenth of a homer; their measure shall be according to the homer. 12 The shekel shall be twenty gerahs; twenty shekels, twenty-five shekels, and fifteen shekels shall be your mina.


Think about the plundering that is going on in this nation. Think about how our nation's economy has been made dependent on the usury system. Think about how the princes of this day are seeking to "save" the usury system.

Think about how the princes are striving to repair the damage to the "belief and confidence of the masses of men in their system."

Paul writes this about the purpose of the church...


Eph. 3:8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ; 10 to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places,


again...

10 to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places,

Is the church of today willing to stand up and manifest the wisdom of God so that the "principalities and powers in the heavenly places" might know the power and glory of Christ and His church?

Or is the church corrupt by the things of this world?

In Christ
Jeff

R
rookie

I found this discussion of our nation's current usury system revealing....


http://www.financialsense.com/Experts/2008/Taylor.html

Do you see how men use debt to change the scales and weights established by God?

In Christ
Jeff

S
sermonindex

Greetings in the Lord's name!


Brother Jeff wrote:
Listen to the [i]consequences or curses brought on Israel [u]because they did not obey the voice of the Lord[/u][/i]...I that time the nation is now known as Iraq.

Deu 28:43 "The alien who [is] among you shall rise higher and higher above you, and you shall come down lower and lower.

Deu 28:44 He shall lend to you, but you shall not lend to him; he shall be the head, and you shall be the tail.

Deu 28:45 "Moreover [i]all these curses shall come upon you and pursue and overtake you, [u]until you are destroyed[/u], because you did not obey the voice of the LORD your God[/i], [i]to [u]keep His commandments and His statutes[/u] which He commanded you.[/i]

Are we willing to acknowledge that our financial system is against God's economy and therefore a device of Satan.

Brother, yes, this financial system is against God's economy and a "device of Satan", but [i]is it not also doing His will, is it not executing His righteous judgment upon America?[/i] If the church in America and the American people were obedient to the voice of the Lord, if they had feared Him, this indebtedness would not have come upon them, but because the church--and the nation--has strayed from the prescribed path, [b]God[/b] has sent this [u]curse[/u] upon her, just as He did with Israel. Until she is destroyed. "... all these curses shall come upon you and pursue and overtake you, until you are destroyed ..."

Notice that the people of God (which is not equivalent to the righteous [i]and[/i] the wicked, but the chosen ones) are the recipients of judgment--they have brought it upon their nation with their disobedience, they and not the stranger and the heathen. Here is a couple of examples from Scripture:

Jdg 3:12 [i]And the children of Israel again did evil in the sight of the Lord. So the Lord strengthened Eglon king of Moab against Israel, because they had done evil in the sight of the Lord.[/i]
Jdg 3:13 Then he gathered to himself the people of Ammon and Amalek, went and defeated Israel, and took possession of the City of Palms.
Jdg 3:14 [b]So the children of Israel served Eglon king of Moab eighteen years[/b].
Jdg 3:15 [i]But when the children of Israel cried out to the Lord, the Lord raised up a deliverer for them[/i]: Ehud the son of Gera, the Benjamite, a left-handed man. By him the children of Israel sent tribute to Eglon king of Moab.

Lam 2:16 All your enemies have opened their mouth against you; They hiss and gnash their teeth. They say, "We have swallowed her up! Surely this is the day we have waited for; We have found it, we have seen it!"
Lam 2:17 [b]The Lord has done what He purposed; He has fulfilled His word Which He commanded in days of old. He has thrown down and has not pitied, And He has caused an enemy to rejoice over you; He has exalted the horn of your adversaries.[/b]

So, brethren, I believe that the ultimate judgment cannot be evaded or withdrawn or mitigated unless the American church awakes from its slumber, repents of its wickedness and turns to the Living God. And the curse [b]should[/b] come upon her (the nation), because it is the [b]righteous[/b] judgment of God. In fact, many a Christian's blindness toward what is going on is a part of God's judgment! Satan is given power to "pursue" and "overtake" and to "destroy". I am reminded of the following passage now:

Isa 5:3 "And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah, Judge, please, between Me and My vineyard.
Isa 5:4 What more could have been done to My vineyard That I have not done in it? Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes, Did it bring forth wild grapes?
Isa 5:5 And now, please let Me tell you what I will do to My vineyard: [b]I will take away its hedge[/b], and it shall be burned; And break down its wall, and it shall be trampled down.
Isa 5:6 I will lay it waste; It shall not be pruned or dug, But there shall come up briers and thorns. I will also command the clouds That they rain no rain on it."

If we as Christians try to "fight Satan" or "resist the authorities" or "heal the system" or restore "the America of the Founding Fathers," I believe that then we are in actuality fighting against the will of the Lord. We are saying that His judgment upon us and our land is unjust. We are going about it the wrong way. For we, in and of ourselves, can't restore anything. See this confession in the Book of Daniel:

Dan 9:13 As it is written in the Law of Moses, all this disaster has come upon us; [i]yet we have not made our prayer before the Lord our God, [b]that[/b] we might turn from our iniquities and understand Your truth.[/i]
Dan 9:14 Therefore the Lord has kept the disaster in mind, and brought it upon us; [b]for the Lord our God is righteous in all the works which He does[/b], though we have not obeyed His voice.

America has surely become an abomination in God's sight with the filth and drunkenness it has spread among the nations (its ungodly movies, its preemptive wars, its usury, its economy of exploitation, its pornography, and its false gospels)! That is why I believe He will judge her and is calling His people out of her (to dissociate themselves from what Babylon is, even physically), while there is time:

Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven saying, "[i]Come out of her, my people[/i], lest you [i]share in her sins[/i], and lest you [i]receive of her plagues[/i].
Rev 18:5 For her sins have reached to heaven, and [b]God has remembered her iniquities[/b].

And this is not true for America only, but also for most countries of the modern world, which have become "drunk with the wine of her fornication." Interestingly, drunkenness is associated with the inability to think clearly, drunk people are often unaware of how drunk they truly are.

I know of brothers and sisters who have "left the world" and formed secluded communities in recent years, just as the Anabaptists did centuries ago (of which some remain until this day). But for myself and my brothers and sisters I can say that we are very, very late given the signs of the times, and that if the Lord doesn't grant us time and opportunity for a safe escape and establishment in the wilderness, we may have to suffer greatly because of our tardiness when the persecution and disaster strikes. Which suffering should not be troubling but joyful for me, had I not in fact wasted a lot of time in hesitation and doublemindedness and thus incurred it.

R
rookie

Brother Slavyan wrote:


If the church in America and the American people were obedient to the voice of the Lord, if they had feared Him, this indebtedness would not have come upon them, but because the church--and the nation--has strayed from the prescribed path, God has sent this curse upon her

Since 2001, it seems like everything that has taken place has more resembled the "curse" rather than the "blessing" explained in the book of Deuteronomy.


n fact, many a Christian's blindness toward what is going on is a part of God's judgment! Satan is given power to "pursue" and "overtake" and to "destroy". I am reminded of the following passage now:

2 Th 2:

9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


They were unwilling hear... and thus "receive the love of the truth."


And this is not true for America only, but also for most countries of the modern world, which have become "drunk with the wine of her fornication." Interestingly, drunkenness is associated with the inability to think clearly, drunk people are often unaware of how drunk they truly are.

Only the Word of God can bring light into the darkness of our ignorance.

God Bless you Slavyan...

In Christ
Jeff

R
rookie

Revelation 3:
17 Because you say, “I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing’—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked— 18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see.

This church was wealthy by the world's standards...yet what does Jesus say?

"and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked..."


What is Christ's solution...

18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see.

There are three aspects of this healing....

Does Christ's prescription (exhortation) cure the man in the three ways Satan temps man?

1John 2:16 For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world.

And finally...for those who do not repent...are these not the ones who receive the mark of the beast?

In terms of numerology, 7 means complete. The number 6 stands for man who is incomplete. If a man seeks to be complete by seeking "all that is in the world--the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life", he will never find completion as God's creation. So in the three ways that man succumbs to the temptations of Satan he finds that he is perfectly incomplete....666.

In Christ
Jeff

R
rookie

Pro 20:23 Diverse weights [are] an abomination to the LORD, And dishonest scales [are] not good.

A system based on usury enables the princes of this world to use diverse weights and dishonest scales. The current financial crisis was created by 'manufacturing" mortgage backed securities and credit default swaps without any thought of risk or moral hazard. Those who created this market made billions of dollars in fees.

These same princes, who outwardly profess their "full faith in free market principles," are standing in line to receive handouts that will restore their financial integrity. These men are trying to overcome what Scripture says...

Pro 20:21 An inheritance gained hastily at the beginning Will not be blessed at the end.

These men are being made perfectly incomplete as they receive the mark of the beast....666.

In Christ
Jeff

R
rookie

Pro 20:21 An inheritance gained hastily at the beginning Will not be blessed at the end.

Since the fall of our financial system the price of commodities have dropped in half. Just think of all the money that pension funds, hedge funds, and mutual funds invested in futures contracts that disappeared.

But what is more important, just think of all the poor whose faces were being grinded into the dirt by the money changers. Think about all the poor who had to pay over 4 dollars a gallon for gas so that they could go to work. Think about the 3 to 4 dollar a gallon price of home heating oil that the elderly had to pay recently....

Now that the prices of gasoline and home heating oil have dropped more than 50 percent, who was responsible for the "higher prices?"

The moneychangers....

Jam 5:1 Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries that are coming upon you!

Jam 5:2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are moth-eaten.

Jam 5:3 Your gold and silver are corroded, and their corrosion will be a witness against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have heaped up treasure in the last days.

Jam 5:4 Indeed the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, cry out; and the cries of the reapers have reached the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth. [fn]

Jam 5:5 You have lived on the earth in pleasure and luxury; you have fattened your hearts as [fn] in a day of slaughter.

Jam 5:6 You have condemned, you have murdered the just; he does not resist you.

As it was before in James' day, so it is today, are we those who seek to "an inheritance gained hastily?" Those who 'buy and sell' knowing that they contribute to the grinding of the poor will find that their hope "will not be blessed at the end."

In Christ
Jeff

R
rookie

This article is long but it may explain man's system that is incomplete according to God's ways.

CREDIT CRISIS - THE WORST IS YET TO COME
Financial System Upside Down
by Alar Tamming, Tavex and Dr. Krassimir Petrov,
Prince Sultan University
December 8, 2008

Mark Twain once said that “if you don’t read the newspaper, you are uniformed. If you do read the newspaper, you are misinformed”. It is no surprise then, even to people who don’t follow the news, that a truly serious financial crisis is sweeping the world.

The headlines of newspapers and internet portals speak for themselves. Readers are inundated with facts about what is taking place. At one moment, bank write-offs to the extent of trillions are being discussed. The next moment, notice is given of guardian-angel intervention by governments and interest rate cuts by central banks. Aid packages in the trillions exceed the calculation skills and comprehension capabilities of ordinary people by a factor of several times. The main message conveyed by all of this “information” is mostly emotional. While write-offs may lead the reader to pessimism – what will become of my life, the government creates a feeling of security with the aura of a paternal figure, adding trillions of dollars to banks and “guaranteeing” that bank deposits and security holdings won't simply vanish. Those geniuses are on the task and will never let the system collapse, the reader thinks, so he turns his attention to the next page of the paper.

What is missing is a deep analysis of the causes of the crisis, as well as possible future scenarios – papers look neither in the distant past, nor in the distant future. The cause of the financial crisis is claimed to be driven by two emotions - fear and greed; blame goes to poor regulations and greedy Wall Street investment bankers; rhetorically is added the fact that crises accompany capitalism, that they have regularly occurred in the past, and that they will continue to occur in the future. Some stock broker releases investment advice that from a long-run perspective, now is a good time to buy stocks.

Unfortunately, investing in stock markets is never as simple as it sounds. If every time we buy when stocks are down and afterwards stocks go up, then we would be all fabulously wealthy. Naturally, it is forgotten that this is accompanied by inflation and a drop in the purchasing power of money. Moreover, the fact that the world’s largest companies and banks can go bankrupt is never mentioned in financial publications; neither is the possibility that the assets of shareholders could be completely wiped out. Bankruptcies of large companies and banks are regarded only as a theoretical possibility and relegated to the pages of abstract economics textbooks.

Fundamental Causes of the Crisis

But let’s start at the beginning, with the question of why the current financial crisis has occurred. The reasons are quite fundamental, not fear and greed, nor a lack of faith in the markets. The problems are not caused by loose regulations either. The crisis also has nothing to do with herd instinct, which helps along, of course, in the deepening of the crisis. These are, after all, only symptoms of the underlying problems.

To gain a better understanding, one must first take a look at history. Unfortunately, from inside the system, it is difficult to view the system as a whole; all that is visible are individual problems and attempts to fix them, instead of understanding that perhaps the entire system is basically built on flawed and shaky basis, that the foundation of out global monetary system is built on sand and the current financial crisis and the resulting economic crisis are objectively inevitable.

The current attempts by the government are, above all, a desire to preserve the status quo, a desire to sustain the unsustainable, a desire to extend the life of a pathological system doomed to failure from the beginning. But governments have always set the goal for themselves of preserving the system. An exception would have been Gorbachev’s declaration, were he to have announced that the socialist system is destined for destruction and should be replaced by a capitalist system. Also excepted are central bank press releases, where it is announced that the current financial system is fundamentally wrong. As stated – inside the system it is impossible to see the system’s faults.

The main fault in the current system is that monetary historical experience is largely ignored. Throughout history, all successful monetary systems have, in one way or another, been tied either to gold, silver, or some other real asset of intrinsic value. If money has been only a piece of paper or a piece of copper, the system has always collapsed.

Beginning in 1971, for the first time in the history of global finance, no currency in the world has been backed by anything. This monetary experience should be properly called an experiment, which is now reaching its logical conclusion. This includes some curious facts, such as the Estonian kroon, which is backed by a reserve currency, primarily the Euro, while at the same time the Euro itself is backed by nothing. And the Estonian Kroon is not backed by euro banknotes, but instead, in all likelihood, is backed by a mixture of German, US, and Japanese treasury bills. These are only government promises to pay that will, at the end of the crisis, make Estonia’s entire foreign reserves, gathered for bad times, almost worthless.

If money is backed by nothing more than government seals, decorated paper, and strongly voiced promises, greed enters into play. No army in history has hindered central bankers and governments from creating money out of thin air and then spending it according to their own vision. The modern term for this is credit money, the loaning of credit by the central bank that becomes money itself. In normal and stable systems, bankers have only been able to loan out money that they have in their own vaults, and they were also always ready to exchange issued paper money and obligations for the gold bars stored in the vault of the bank. However, there has come a moment when bankers realised that people were not coming back to request gold, the result of which was that worthless pieces of paper (read: banknotes and electronic impulses) were placed into circulation and if they issued supplementary paper currency, which lacked any coverage, nothing happened, at least initially. In the old days, the mess would eventually surface and the matter ended with either the bankruptcy of the bank or the destruction of the state’s monetary system through hyperinflation.

Currently, the entire monetary system is global, and therefore has lasted longer than usual. The process, which took place in Germany in the 1920’s over a period of 3-4 years, will last for 3-4 decades on the global market. Throughout history there has been no monetary system that was not backed by a precious metal or some other equivalent accepted by all, ever, without exception, that has remained standing. The current experiment cannot remain standing either. We have created financial “capital” in a heretofore unseen extent. This “capital” is incorrectly believed to be wealth, because it could be exchanged for actual wealth during certain historical stages. Unfortunately, all this financial “capital” and all of this financial “wealth” have little backing in real goods or productive assets. This is an inherent property of our modern-day fractional-reserve banking system. Te result is that, whether we want it or not, the entire global financial system will fall into chaos and will destroyed, and hopefully a new and better system will be created.

What will happen is another important question, and impulse psychology comes into play here. People have a tendency to view things, above all, with a short-term time horizon. This “short-termism” can be seen on the stock markets and by the developments in the financial world. Even though the crisis had already been predicted at the end of the 1990’s, financial analysts were guided by “mystical” numbers and assessed the condition of the current situation as good. This type of analysis reminds of the anecdote where a man falls out of a skyscraper; when asked by someone from the fifth floor window how things are going, he answers “so far so good, I’m simply moving quickly”.

The Initial Phase – Financial Crisis

Unfortunately, the depth and length of the crisis are currently being discounted. At the moment, the crisis is in its initial phases. What is taking place only has affected mostly the financial sector; there has been only a minimal effect on the real economy. However, at the latest by next year, the second phase of the crisis will begin, with spillover effects into the economy. In 2009, the weakness of the global economy will become central.

The current economic system is built on providing loans in ever increasing amounts, not on saving and the repayment of debt over time. If a private person builds his life on a series of new loans, where he repays old debt with new debt, then he would be considered crazy and would inevitably end up either in debtor's prison or bankruptcy. If the same thing were to take place at the corporate and state level, then nobody would dare say anything. It would be considered perfectly normal. Where is the child from the fairytale who wasn’t afraid to cry out that the king was naked!

Companies have become accustomed to taking new loans, although the financial system is attempting to correct. A contraction of bank credit to the private sector is in place, and inevitably the economy will not receive the money (read: credit) that it was planning on receiving. In addition, financial companies are unable to sell financial securities to finance themselves, since even the currently successful companies that kept free funds in shares and securities in order to earn a higher return, have lost over half of their value.

This first initial phase is well familiar to us. We have lived with it for almost two years. The media has called it by various names: “The Subprime Crisis”, “The Credit Crunch”, and “The Credit Crisis”.

The Second Phase – Economic Crisis

The lack of money becomes evident in the second phase of the crisis – the financial crisis is replaced by an economic crisis, triggering massive bankruptcies that would spread globally in a chain reaction. After the series of initial difficulties encountered by home borrowers and the construction companies, there have been no bankruptcies so far in manufacturing, shipping, media, food processing, not to mention luxury goods like luxury cars, yachts and watches, or exotic businesses like space tourism. But their time will come. During the second phase of the crisis, another large sum of capital will “evaporate” from the market, because a company which is going bankrupt will leave nothing for shareholders and very little for its bondholders. In the second stage of the crisis, unemployment will begin to grow along with the wave of bankruptcies. The final quarter of 2008 is only the beginning. Remember that in 1931-1932, the unemployment rate in the USA was 20%, with one in five people unemployed.

The Third Phase – Hyperinflation

Throughout the series of crises, politicians will attempt to interfere in the game, but the third stage of the crisis will nevertheless begin. Since banks were “saved” with large bailouts, politicians will also begin to lavish corporations with various aid packages. The recent charade of automakers begging for money is only the beginning. Thus, measures will be undertaken that, in the opinion of politicians, will help the economy and save jobs, something that will likely become known as Obama’s “New New Deal”. This will include a multitude of spending programs and, above all, the loaning of credit with astronomical increases in the money supply, together with the classifying of the corresponding numbers into the trillions. Just like now nobody talks any more in terms of millions, so in the not so distant future no one will be talking any more in terms of billions. Trillions will be the order of the day. Perhaps bank lending standards will be relaxed. Perhaps the government will lavish the banks with a lot more money than it does today, just to keep them lending. Perhaps the central bank will directly monetize private debt. Perhaps the government will guarantee many more corporate loans, just like it recently guaranteed the securities/loans of the GSEs. Perhaps GSEs will proliferate throughout the economy, transforming the U.S economy into the “GSE Economy”, transforming a former great capitalist economy into a modern-day nationalsozialistische economy. Perhaps the government will implement all of the above.

It will seem for awhile that peace has arrived, that the crisis has been overcome, as if the bankrupt companies have been “saved”, although this will only be the calm before the storm. If there is already more money in the financial system than actual goods, then after the subsequent injections of money, more like dropping money from helicopters or showering corporations with money, the economic ship will begin to heel.

In this stage, the third stage, the hyperinflation scenario will begin when people realize that the money in banks will buy them next month half as much as it did this month. Then panic will ensue. People will begin to buy essential and non-essential items, just as long as there is something of value that can be obtained in exchange for their colourful pieces of worthless paper. Manufacturing enterprises would no longer want to sell goods, because the money received in exchange for the sale of their goods is not sufficient to purchase the new raw materials. Everyone who sells an actual object or good for paper money is a loser, since the same money is no longer enough to purchase again the same goods. Money created out of thin air electronically has brought tremendous benefits to the initial users and issuers, but at the expense of the wider masses through the collapse in their standards of living in this stage.

The third phase will be chaotic and difficult. The details are difficult to predict, but if history is any judge, the politicians won’t be asleep. They will likely pass a number of important laws, prices will be fixed, wages will be standardized, foreign currency accounts will be frozen; in general, everything that could be done, will be done, and this will only serve to extend the agony. Social upheaval and riots will be suppressed by brute force; many democratic freedoms and values will likely be lost. As of today, the hyperinflation spiral and Zimbabwe Syndrome have reached the point of no return.

Final Phase – Monetary Collapse

In the event that democracy survives, then the fourth and final phase will begin, a phase which can be called The Darkness before Dawn, the final agony before the rising of the sun. This is the ultimate destruction of the monetary and financial system, the loss of all electronic and financial values that is accompanied by monetary reform throughout most of the world.

In the worst case scenario, this will result in the creation of a Global Government; in the best case scenario, the process will take place separately in each country. For example, at the end of the Tulip Mania of the 17th century, all futures transactions with which tulips were bought and sold for millions of florins were declared void. Similarly, all electronic assets, contracts, securities, and futures contracts will be declared void, because the world doesn’t have a court or executive power which is capable of enforcing bankruptcies and debt collection resulting from millions of non-performing contracts. Only the actual collateral for loans will be demanded - land, houses, apartments. The losers will be private persons, while legal entities, along with their debts and non-existent collateral, will be lost in the virtual world, the place from whence they came.

Things will begin again with a clean slate. We will once again all be on an equal level. Railroads and planes, bridges and houses won’t disappear. All real wealth will remain, lost is only the paper wealth, those things that people believed they had and that they believed someone else (read: government, banks, pension funds, etc) will preserve for them. At that moment, faith will truly have been lost, as the fruits of a person’s life will have, through several metamorphoses, been transformed into banking sector profits and executive bonuses that had been spent by the suits long before the crisis even began.

The new economic system will be different than the current one. Its type, shape, or form is impossible to predict at the moment. Similarly to the end of the slave-holding system, it was not possible to see the creation of the feudal system. It was also impossible to foresee the blossoming of capitalism before the industrial revolution in England in 1785. So, it now is impossible to predict all the changes, although those changes are inevitable. Each process must go through its historical development and must reach its natural conclusion.

History shows that every changeover from one organisation of society to another has been very painful. Nevertheless, each following step, no matter how painful, has moved humanity forward and offered a better life to more people. Hopefully it will also go forward this time. All we have to do is hang on.

...............................................

If this is a picture of things to come, one could see a further push to establish Babylon...

In Christ
Jeff

R
rookie

Here is a simpler explaination of the foundation on which the world builds it's financial system...

In Madoff We Trust
by Peter Schiff, Euro Pacific Capital | December 17, 2008
Print
As the multi-billion dollar Ponzi scheme orchestrated by Wall Street insider Bernard Madoff unravels in the media spotlight, the nation is being presented with a rare opportunity to understand the true nature of many of our most cherished financial structures. Hopefully we have the wisdom to connect the dots.

Although the $50 billion loss engineered by Madoff is truly a staggering accomplishment (and was done using old-fashioned fraud rather than the mathematical wizardry that has characterized Wall Street’s recent larcenies) the size of the scheme pales in comparison to the multi-trillion dollar Ponzi structures run by the United States government. In fact, rather than looking to jail Madoff, President-elect Obama should consider making him our new Treasury Secretary. If not that, at least make him the czar of something!

Madoff’s inspiration came from Charles Ponzi, the Italian-born American immigrant who promoted an investment plan in the early 1900s’ that traded postal coupons. Rather than paying investors from legitimate investment returns, Ponzi hit upon the innovative idea of paying out early investors with money collected from new investors. By creating an illusion of success, interest in his investment plan ballooned. Over time the schemes have become known by many other names, such as chain letters or pyramid schemes. They are united by the fact that they always fail in the end.

When the influx of new investors inevitably slows to the point where distributions to current investors can no longer be maintained, investors look to withdraw funds. When this happens, the entire structure falls apart. The profits received by those who “invested” early as well as any funds skimmed off by the promoter, are offset by all the losses of those who came late to the party.

To a large extent, the same concept has driven the major asset bubbles of the last decade. Given the ridiculously high valuations seen by tech stocks and real estate during their respective booms, the only way the bubbles could be perpetuated was if newer “investors” could be found to pay even more outrageous prices (the greater fool). But when these new buyers balked, the whole structure crumbled. Although there was no Ponzi or Madoff to orchestrate these manias, the entire financial and economic apparatus of the country had successfully convinced the public that “investments” in tech stocks and condominiums were bullet proof and that the supply of new buyers was endless.

Unfortunately, the Ponzi economy doesn’t stop there. A chain letter is no more viable when run by governments than when run by private citizens. However, government orchestrated pyramids have the advantage of required participation. As a result, they can maintain the illusion of viability for several generations. But the longer such schemes operate the larger will be the losses when they ultimately collapse.

The Social Security Administration runs its “trust funds” with precisely the same methods used by Madoff and Ponzi. As money is collected by from current workers, the funds are then dispersed to those already receiving benefits. None of the funds collected are actually invested, so no investment returns are ever generated. Those currently paying into the system are expected to receive their returns based on the “contribution” made by future workers. This is the classic definition of a Ponzi scheme. The only difference is that Ponzi didn’t own a printing press.

The United States Government runs its own balance sheet based on the Ponzi principal as well. Our national debt always grows and never shrinks. As existing debt matures, proceeds are repaid by issuing new debt. Interest payments on existing debt are also made by selling new debt to investors. The whole scheme depends on an ever growing supply of new lenders, or the willingness of existing lenders, to continue to roll over maturing notes. Of course, as was the case with Madoff, if enough of our creditors want their money back, the music stops playing.

In Madoff’s case, the rug pulling was provided by the huge financial losses suffered by some of his clients in other non-Madoff investments. When enough of these clients looked to sell some of their apparently well-performing Madoff assets to help offset such losses, the scam collapsed. The same thing could befall the United States Government. Now that China and our other creditors are looking to spend some of their U.S. Treasury holdings to stimulate their own economies, look for a similar outcome with even more dire implications.

The main difference is that while Madoff took elaborate steps to conceal his scheme, the U.S. government operates in broad daylight. It truly is amazing how faith in government is so pervasive that many can believe that politicians will succeed where private individuals fail, and that governments are somehow immune to the economic laws that govern the rest of society. Like those unfortunate to have been duped by Madoff and Ponzi, the world is in for a rude awakening.

...............................................

Man's system is based on deluding the masses of men. The princes of this world are working feverishly to restore confidence in this system.

In Christ
Jeff

This discussion is archived and closed to new replies. Start a new discussion to carry the subject on.
Archived
1 of 108 posts

Everything we make is available for free because of a generous community of supporters.

Donate