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Obama's Election: The Coming Persecution

K
KingJimmy

As many of you know, Paul Washer, a missionary who has served the Lord in Europe, South America, and is the founder of the HeartCry Missionary Society, spoke at the Revival Conference in Atlanta. Prophetically, he warns the Church of a persecution that is coming to our country.

Brother Washer warns how a "net is closing around you, your children and your grand children," all while we are mesmerized by the things that are in this world. He says we will further be isolated from society, falsely accused, denounced as biggots and haters. He says up until now that these things have been happening slowly, but will be quickly increasing, and unless God intervenes to stop it by means of a revival, these things will come upon us suddenly before we even realize what is happening. In response to such, brother Washer says we must fill our minds with the Word of God and live our lives in light of eternity, for we will have to be dependent upon God for a radical grace to make it through such times.

With all this I must concur. And I would like to give an exhortation to you and your local Church, that you especially focus not only on your growing in the knowledge of the word of God, but also in the spreading of it. Put aside many of your silly games, programs, and building projects. For in light of the election of Barack Obama as President of the United States, we can be sure that apart from God's intervention, we will see our nation turn all the more against Evangelical Christians. If Obama lives up to his socialist tendencies, there can be no doubt that the state will greatly assault the word of God, as it seeks to contradict and oppress its message, and ridicule those who hold to it. For socialism brings with it the tendency to allow only one voice, as all other voices that contradict the state are seen as a threat to its own well being.

Therefore, we must seek all the more to do those things which ultimately are eternal in value, and will survive the fires by which all things will be tested (1 Corinthians 3). For the fires that are coming will show what works were truly made of gold, silver, and other precious metals. The fires will reveal those things which were merely wood, hay, and stubble. Though the apostle Paul warns us in 1 Corinthians 4 not to judge which is what before the day in which the Lord reveals those things Himself, we should determine in our minds to the best of our abilities to do those things which we truly believe to qualify as doing a work that is truly eternal in value.

Building programs and such may have some eternal value, but being that we can find no instance of the Church building "houses of worship" in the New Testament, we can probably be pretty sure whatever value such edifices may have, they are rather small in God's eyes. One task we can be sure that the early Church was engaged in that was of great eternal value, was the active spreading of the word of God. Therefore, while there is still ample opportunity to do such with little hindrance, let me encourage you once again to put as much time as you can into openly spreading of the gospel of Jesus Christ. As much as possible, share the gospel at work, amongst friends, amongst family, and even in the streets. As much as possible, preach, publish, and defend the gospel. For the time is coming where we will lament the days that we did not take the wonderful opportunity the Lord has given us in this present time. For unless the Lord intervenes, the time is coming where to openly share the gospel maybe difficult, and result in great personal loss.

E
EvangelistC

I am glad you posted this. I was telling my family this exact same thing tonight. We have got to step up and separate ourselves from the jargon and games of the world, and pursue the increase of the Kingdom of God. We are going to be living in a non-christian nation, not unlike the nations of old.

Get ready. We must start acting like the soldiers of Christ we have been called to be.

H
HeartSong

We must start acting like the soldiers of Christ we have been called to be.

Amen. Only by Thy grace, O Lord.

P
passerby

Today is a day that will be remembered in human history, who knows what changes, blessings, or difficulties it will bring. May the Lord bring us wisdom and strength through the unfoldingng events of our time.

May it bring the assemblies towards a closer unity for the glory of God, helping one another, praying for one another.

A
awakenwithin

amen amen, Brothe this is truth and wonderfuly putbut we must know that there is chnage coming and it will be hard, but we must not fear. I can many ways I could be fearful, but to be wise and bold my beloved, let give up the game. My heartis so moved to this passion, that my beloved in Christ the cross, Now is the time. I say amen with my feet shaking, let us not trust in ourself or we will never move, but in God and tae steps of Faith, Brothers and sister we need each more then we know, don't niss meeting and praying with others now. Go and pray

In christ

M
mayIfearHim

Again, I say, 'Amen'.
"Where evil abounds, grace abounds MUCH MORE"
Praise God for all He plans to do!

S
sermonindex

Amen..it is sad that it would take something to cause us to press in and do the work of which we have been called. But we know that through persecution the church advances and grows, it is not squelched or hinder, but gains momentum with fiery trial.


K
KingJimmy

Amen. We must not fear such things. As Scripture reminds us, His name is Immanuel, and He is the God that is with us.

S
sermonindex

Historically when things get tough for Christians... we flourish. We grow. Our devotion gets deeper. Look at our persecuted brethren in other lands. Chinese people are being saved daily by the thousands. Revivals are happening in countries where they do not have religious freedoms.

All of us here say we're praying for revival... but in times of plenty revival usually does not happen. Men do not feel like they need God. But let God apply some pressure, and revival breaks out.

In a strange way... perhaps this election is an answer to prayer. I shudder to say that, but it could be true.

Krispy

K
KingJimmy

As the early church historian, Eusebius once said, "The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church." Indeed, the church seems to flourish most when times are tough. In such times, we become like the tree that digs its roots deep, and finds water so as to allow it to flourish.

W
whyme

No more resting on our lees. No more trust in the idol of a conservative govenrment. No more. Arise from the slumber.


KingJimmy wrote:
As the early church historian, Eusebius once said, "The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church." Indeed, the church seems to flourish most when times are tough. In such times, we become like the tree that digs its roots deep, and finds water so as to allow it to flourish.

S
sermonindex

This is the link to the video of Paul Washer talking about a coming persecution: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7UyZYpeReY


I
iansmith

I was just with a younger Christian brother trying to encourage him to stand firm among his many worries and anxieties.

I tried to share a bit of wisdom with him that the Lord has taught me over the past several years. Our 'problems,' our 'anxieties,' our 'worries,' they all appear to be bigger than life... but for the most part, they aren't. We often make huge issues out of minor issues. It is all about [b]PERSPECTIVE[/b].

In the Eternal scheme of things, Obama's election is a drop in the bucket. Do not make a mountain of an anxiety out of a molehill!

From God's perspective, this is nothing new.

We live in a dispensation of Grace, go out and tell people that they will face the Wrath of God if they do not turn away from their sins.

C
crsschk

If I may offer a note of caution ...

Have long been a proponent of holding things in abeyance when it comes to events yet future, to things supposed and where it goes to the level of extremity that our so called 'prophets' who, find every imagination and thought criss-crossing the mind is "[i]Thus sayeth the Lord[/i]" an enemy to [i]thinking[/i] Christians and studious bible Christians everywhere ... Have been loud and vocal.

Not to give the wrong impression here in any fashion towards Paul Washer who is guttural and speaks-lives from the core of his being, not at all.

Jumping to conclusions, jumping the gun - These things I find often a great distraction and those that can fill our minds with notions. The point is for those who are watching unto prayer and praying while they watch I do not see that we will be taken by surprise nor that we have a reflex that rejects possibilities and\\or warnings.

If I am reading scripture and the hearts and minds of those who we esteem, men who have long since left this mad world aright I find that this tension can be held in abeyance and should. Bluntly enough, we will know when it is time, when the "summer" has come.

Things are not always as they 'seem'. [i]This[/i] is not necessarily [i]that[/i]. An example and one that may prove out my point as timely as this very moment I am writing;

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=23527&forum=48&start=20&viewmode=flat&order=1]California Legalizes Same Sex Marriage[/url]

This was back in May and at that time a similar mention was made.

[url=http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_10901475?source=most_emailed]Prop. 8 appears headed for victory[/url]

At this writing, it is within an hour and half current, with 90% of the tally accounted for. Yet, that is still 10% short, [i]the time is not yet[/i] for ... well, that leads to another altogether different thought.

[i]IF[/i] this holds it may be telling of some notions and perspectives and hopefully it is seen with some humility that we do not be caught up in so much speculation - Pronouncements - Guess work.

We love our categories and it is difficult to speak sometimes without hearing them redounding between the ears - Left-Right-Middle and the middle is the pit of seeming compromise or fence siting. What you or I 'think' may or may not come to pass is frankly irrelevant and experience and study has shown me that God has chosen to keep things hidden from our sight predominantly precisely so that we do not trust in our own strength, whether of might or mind. That we ought to be ready for anything and content with what we have, watchful but not post-functory in speculation. If it comes it will come and we will not be caught unaware. Lastly, a reminder:

[i]But when they persecute you in this city, [u]flee[/u] ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.[/i] Mat 10:23

Sometimes I wonder if we do not somehow secretly [i]desire[/i] to be persecuted, even if we would not come right out and say so. It is a wrong headed notion and I realize saying as much [i]here[/i] would bring a challenge that that is 'not what we are saying' and I would agree. But I do wonder about that impression that is left ... behind.

If one was to really, diligently dig through this site and the things that have gone across he postings after 5 some odd years I believe we would find a whole host of matters that are elevated at times (such as right now) only to die back down and fade off into a disinterested conscience, the often great sweeping pronouncements of things then current have been relegated to a dusty old alley, forgotten about and moved on to the next current event.

Further than that, in the realm of Christendom itself- It is even more pronounced. Everything from Y2K to the recent great 'Revival' out in Florida that came crashing back to earth with a giant thud, already forgotten and dismissed, all the 'prophecies', all the noise, none of the needed forthcoming in honesty and more strikingly repentance for the foolishness and the future speaking that was evidently [i]false[/i]. There are so many of these things it would be impossible to tell of them.

[b]Abeyance
ABEY'ANCE[/b]
, n. pron. abayance. [Norm. abbaiaunce, or abaizance, in expectation; boyance, expectation. Qu. Fr. bayer, to gape, to look a long time with the mouth open; to stand looking in a silly manner. [See Bay]

In expectation or contemplation of law. The fee simple or inheritance of lands and tenements is in abeyance, when there is no person in being in whom it can vest; so that it is in a state of expectancy or waiting until a proper person shall appear. Thus if land is leased to a man for life, remainder to another for years, the remainder for years is in abeyance, till the death of the lessee, for life.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


[i] He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.[/i] Rev 22:20,21

S
sermonindex

Ian... you are so right. This life is a vapor. It is as long as a finger snap in light of eternity. The worst case scenario is we die... and enter into glory. How can we fear anything in this life?

Keith Green once said that God created this world in 6 days... and He's been working on Heaven for 2,000 years. This place is like living in a garbage can compared to whats going on up there.

I'm sure if we could talk to Keith today... or Ravenhill, Tozer or Larry Norman... they would all tell us how silly we are to fear anything in this life considering how splendid Heaven is!

Krispy

R
ravenmolehil

This thread reminds me of how God used James A. Stewart in several pockets of revival prior to Hitlers invasion of Europe etc. & how God raised up a people to endure the trials, tribulation, & suffering that followed. In the 'James A. Stewart - Missionary' book he tells of a similar state of events as the net closed in & In the midst of wrath He extended HIs mercy.

A
AbideinHim

"See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

For our God is a consuming fire." (Hebrews 12:25-29).

God is speaking to us through His Word. He is speaking to us through His prophets, but are we listening? Everything that we are putting our trust and confidence in that has been a substitue or imitation for Christ is going to be shaken. Only that which is established and built on the "sure foundation" Jesus Christ will make it through this shaking. Our Christianity is going to be tested. We will truly have to know Christ as our life and be led by the Spirit of God in these last days.

Mike

S
sermonindex

I would also like to remind everyone that we survived almost a decade of Bill Clinton...

Krispy

G
ginnyrose

Interesting thread...

In light of the feeling that persecution will be upon us, may I suggest that it may not be as quick as we deem it might be. That would not been keeping with the devil's nature, would it? His method of deception is like the proverbial frog: put the fellow into a pan of cold water, turn the heat on low and then unknown to him, cook him slowly. Now if the frog had been put in there with the water being hot, he would have jumped out of it immediately. People are like this frog. (I do not know whether this fable has any basis in fact, but it provides one with a good analogy!)

What I fully expect will happen is that when Obama assumes office in January, he may do a few radical things, but it will soon be business as usual. However, in the meantime forces may be setting up to effect radical change but only by degrees, so small it will be imperceptible to most. This is the way the devil works to deceive folks. Of this method we should not be ignorant. "Business as usual" will have the capability to lull us to sleep. Will we sleep or be alert? Regardless, we are going to die sometime (surprise!!) and for that we need to be prepared regardless what the means may be to this end.

that our so called 'prophets' who, find every imagination and thought criss-crossing the mind is "Thus sayeth the Lord" an enemy to thinking Christians and studious bible Christians everywhere

I am getting to be very disturbed with prophets who will come along and make predictions. They pander to the hopes of folks, raise that level of expectation only to have them dashed - again by reality.

I got an email detailing the prophetic voice of one such prophet who declared that Sarah Palin would become a modern day "Esther" - implying they will win the election - and that this was the voice of the LORD. He says he shared this prophecy with the Palins...Methinks this is the epitome of emotional cruelty...

My thoughts, disjointed, I agree...

ginnyrose

G
GodsFire

My question to krispykritter,

What was so bad about Clinton that wasn't bad about Bush?

I have found in my short time here, that many of you all have issues with dems or their beliefs, let us not forget that God is the God of comfort, He can use anyone, and He does...

When there was financial prosperity during the Clinton years, not many, if any complained. Am I saying that he wasn't sinful, human, or evil in any-way, NO, I am not. He is an unregenerate man, the exact same for george W Bush, George HC Bush, and possibly Barack Obama, they all need our prayers, our real sincere prayers, let us stop criticizing liberals, and comparing them to republicans,

This cheapens our conversation, our stand, it cheapens our Godly jealousy because we are partial and we limit the love and entrenched and wide loving grace for all mankind....

Give President elect Obama a chance to be used or moved by the Almighty God of Abraham....

Like we have sung the song in various congregations, " Look what the Lord has done"! He can do it through President elect Obama, and even if he fails, let us look at him as in any other unregenerate nature or simply as a frail man like the entire Bush Administration has been.

Nevertheless, George W Bush has also been used of God....


Looking unto Jesus, the author & finisher of our faith

God is able,

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Godsfire...

I think, for me, it has less to do with the man, his name, his background, his party or even the prosperity of the nation. Rather, there is a deeper, more important question about righteousness. Abortion is not righteousness. Therefore, I speak against it. I vote against it. If the election were held again tomorrow, I would certainly vote against any candidate who actively promoted it. It doesn't matter which candidate (Republican, Democrat or Independent): I would simply vote about righteousness -- because I am a citizen of this temporary country (just as Paul declared that he was a natural born citizen of Rome).

I suppose that some individuals are concerned about the future state of this nation with the election of Mr. Obama.

I must admit: I wept last night. I wept for the millions of unborn babies that Obama and his likely appointees to the Supreme Court would permit. I wept that the state of South Dakota failed to outlaw abortion by just a few handfuls of votes. While I rejoiced that voters in my state of California were willing to reject homosexual marriage (Prop 8, at least, for now), I wept that these same voters cared more for the conditions of chickens (Prop 2) over the lives of unborn babies and the right for parents to know that a school counselor has counseled a girl to have a taxpayer funded abortion (Prop 4). I wept that our nation permitted style to stomp substance. A recent Harvard University/TIPP poll indicated that 88% of Obama supporters could not name a single specific "change" that he wanted to bring, and 98% could not name two policy changes. Last night, I went to bed hurting for my family, my neighbors, the unborn, this temporary citizenship and the next four years.

This morning, I woke up encouraged in the Lord. I prayed and felt the Lord comforting me with the knowledge that "all is well." Yes, we should pray for Obama, because the heart of a king (or a mere elected President) is in the hand of God. What a great thing it could be if Obama truly met Jesus! Perhaps a testimony like Paul: "[i]The man who was once mocking the Christians and promoting the death of the unborn is now preaching the faith[/i]?" But again: If the election were held today, I would vote the same as yesterday. It hasn't anything to do with Mr. Obama. It has everything to do with RIGHTEOUSNESS. Righteousness, after all, exalts a nation...

:-)

K
KingJimmy


In the Eternal scheme of things, Obama's election is a drop in the bucket. Do not make a mountain of an anxiety out of a molehill!


Amen. We must be cautious about saying things provoked by a spirit of fear instead by the Spirit of God.

K
KingJimmy


If I may offer a note of caution ...


Indeed, a much needed word of caution to prevent a false fire. Good thoughts.


The point is for those who are watching unto prayer and praying while they watch I do not see that we will be taken by surprise nor that we have a reflex that rejects possibilities and\\or warnings.


Indeed, but sadly, so many will be found slumbering and surprised when these things happen. We must always have about us an alert spirit that is conditioned by prayer and studying the word.


Sometimes I wonder if we do not somehow secretly desire to be persecuted,


Amen. This has been something the Lord made me realize some time ago. There is a strange "blood lust" amongst some in the Christian community, including some I have seen on SI, that is actively hoping for persecution. May I say this without sounding harsh? But individuals who hope for persecution are perverted and are guilty of blaspheming the blood of those who were martyrs indeed. No true martyr has ever hoped to be such, not even our Lord. Such an attitude needs to be deeply repented of.

K
KingJimmy


One task we can be sure that the early Church was engaged in that was of great eternal value, was the active spreading of the word of God. Therefore, while there is still ample opportunity to do such with little hindrance, let me encourage you once again to put as much time as you can into openly spreading of the gospel of Jesus Christ. As much as possible, share the gospel at work, amongst friends, amongst family, and even in the streets. As much as possible, preach, publish, and defend the gospel. For the time is coming where we will lament the days that we did not take the wonderful opportunity the Lord has given us in this present time. For unless the Lord intervenes, the time is coming where to openly share the gospel maybe difficult, and result in great personal loss.


So this exhortation does not get lost in the midst of discussion about the nature of what will happen, I want to bring this up again. Use this election as a springboard for sharing the gospel. The main point of my original post was not the persecution that is coming, but rather, the opportunity we now have. Carpe Diem! Seize the Day!

R
ravenmolehil

Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.

Eph 5:14-17
Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,
Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.
Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.

S
sermonindex

I agree with Krispy. The gates of hell will not overcome the church despite what comes our way. May I also say that the church has contributed to its own problems and in a way can bear some responsibility in matters of persecution. The Apostle Paul was persecuted for his uncompromising righteousness, and Israel for their lukewarmness and outright disobedience. It seems to me that over the last decade or so the church has touted morality but has left Godliness ophaned to the convenience of lukewarm living, and grueling ambitions that leave little time and room for God and His Word.

God has proved with each administration that man is not the answer to man's problems. Failure of leadership points to Christ because every leader will fail their people in some regard. There has been scandal and misdeeds in every Presidency and it will continue as a matter of our fallen nature. How this failure affects the church is a matter of God's providence. But Christ is King of kings and Lord of lords. No one will be exalted above Him so every leader will fall short. Regardless, every circumstance contributes to the perfecting of the Bride. I take comfort in this truth.

S
sermonindex

What was so bad about Clinton that wasn't bad about Bush?

...other than disgracing not only the office, but himself as well? Other than making a mockery of the office of the President? Other than shaming his wife in front of the entire world? Other than being strongly pro-abortion, strongly pro-gay... etc?

Not much.

But you missed my point. My point was when Clinton won the election I vividly remember the church went nuts thinking "the sky is falling!". I remember it so well because this was about the time my wife got saved and I was, for the first time, beginning to be exposed to the "church".

I had voted for Bush (because I've always been a staunch conservative), but I thought all these religious kooks were going off the deep end about Clinton. I remember asking some of them who were witnessing to me "Where is your God? How can you freak out about Clinton getting elected, and at the same time say God is in control of everything? Thats hypocritical!"

Of course I was mocking them and trying to pick a fight... and in a few cases it worked... but I still feel the same way today. No, I dont think this election went well for Christians. But at the same time... God is on the throne. Period. The American voters last night did not alter God's plan one ioda. God did not turn on Fox News this morning and say "Oh for crying out loud, these Americans messed up my plans! Gabriel, let every know there will be a staff meeting at 0-900 hours!"

No, God IS in control. Why should we worry? Why should we fear?

Thats my point.

Krispy

G
Greenlea

Let us not forget that God is still on the throne. He [b]still [/b] holds the world in HIS hands. I believe that the Lord has chosen, yes chosen Barack Obama to do [b]His [/b] purpose and His will.

Lest we forget God chose King Saul and King David. NOT the people. Yet they still made many mistakes and caused the people great harm. Because of King David's disobedience many of the Israelites were killed. Yet God chose Him to do His will.

Am I saying that Obama is a Christian. NO! I have never met nor spoken with the man. But, I know that God is the one who raises up leaders and also puts them down. Trust Him. We can't see as He sees. He will not reveal His entire will to us.

What is He doing to us? Conforming us to Christ. Not the way we chose, but the way He choses.


Speak Lord. Your servant is listening.

L Greenlea

S
sermonindex

There is plenty of fodder and blame to go around here. The office has been disgraced many a time and in my opionion the underlying factors aren't the immorality itself, but the arrogance to believe that one could get away with it. Nixon was also an example. I believe ideology is one of the most poisonous and divisive mentalities that satan has devised. No one ideology has ever been immune to scandal and disgrace. If this is a fact, and it is, then the arguments and quarreling between one or the other is simply Biblical foolishness. I say this not as a criticism but just basic truth. One could say that the Republican controlled Congress and Oval Office in the early decade was a referendum on Clinton's immorality. One could also say the same for the Democrat gains in Congress on the heels of Larry Craig, Mark Foley and the like.

So the reality is there is plenty of disgrace to go around. This is a sin issue, and with all of the discracing of the pulpit with the likes of Ted Haggard, Paul Cain, and many others I would think that this should sink in as a matter of perspective. Disgrace of the pulpit is just as serious, if not more, since the one behind the pulpit represents Christ. Not so much with our political leadership, even if they claim Christianity as their 'religion'. I understood Krispy's point, yet Krispy was baited to beyond it rather than restating the original point because of this typical back and forth stuff that just adds fuel to the fire.

S
sermonindex

ccrider... you keep missing my point every time you respond. I'm too busy today to keep reiterating it over and over...

Krispy

S
sermonindex

Krispy, I've responded twice, once in agreement only... 'I agree with Krispy' .... responding to your Clinton comment about the sky falling.... I resonded that in light of your 'sky falling' comment it is true not to panic becaus the gates of hell will not overcome Christ's church. Then I went off made another point. I never thought agreeing with you in this one regard would be such a thorn. But that's fine perhaps I could have been more clear

If I missed it the second time..... I apologize.. and I just wasn't responding to you but making a general point concerning the forum as a whole based on its history on these issues. I'm taking forum context and history in consideration as a generality.

Neither do I have the time to continue with this, but I'm comfortable with what was stated.

S
sermonindex

OK... I probably just misunderstood you. No harm no foul... :-)

Krispy

S
sermonindex

we're fine brother....we're good.

G
GodsFire

Hi Godsfire...

This is a quote from this thread

I think, for me, it has less to do with the man, his name, his background, his party or even the prosperity of the nation. Rather, there is a deeper, more important question about righteousness. Abortion is not righteousness. Therefore, I speak against it. I vote against it. If the election were held again tomorrow, I would certainly vote against any candidate who actively promoted it. It doesn't matter which candidate (Republican, Democrat or Independent): I would simply vote about righteousness -- because I am a citizen of this temporary country (just as Paul declared that he was a natural born citizen of Rome).

I suppose that some individuals are concerned about the future state of this nation with the election of Mr. Obama.

I must admit: I wept last night. I wept for the millions of unborn babies that Obama and his likely appointees to the Supreme Court would permit. I wept that the state of South Dakota failed to outlaw abortion by just a few handfuls of votes. While I rejoiced that voters in my state of California were willing to reject homosexual marriage (Prop 8, at least, for now), I wept that these same voters cared more for the conditions of chickens (Prop 2) over the lives of unborn babies and the right for parents to know that a school counselor has counseled a girl to have a taxpayer funded abortion (Prop 4). I wept that our nation permitted style to stomp substance. A recent Harvard University/TIPP poll indicated that 88% of Obama supporters could not name a single specific "change" that he wanted to bring, and 98% could not name two policy changes. Last night, I went to bed hurting for my family, my neighbors, the unborn, this temporary citizenship and the next four years.

This morning, I woke up encouraged in the Lord. I prayed and felt the Lord comforting me with the knowledge that "all is well." Yes, we should pray for Obama, because the heart of a king (or a mere elected President) is in the hand of God. What a great thing it could be if Obama truly met Jesus! Perhaps a testimony like Paul: "The man who was once mocking the Christians and promoting the death of the unborn is now preaching the faith?" But again: If the election were held today, I would vote the same as yesterday. It hasn't anything to do with Mr. Obama. It has everything to do with RIGHTEOUSNESS. Righteousness, after all, exalts a nation...

This is my addition to the post:
I believe many wept because their candidate didn't win!

here is is brother,

Abortion is the by-product or result of all of our pitifulness and wickedness, So many get soooo caught up into the subject sins such as Abortion and Homosexuality, and rightfully so,

But, Be aware that both of these sins are a result of a lack of desire and want for God to be Lord of our households and personal lives.

I get weary with all of the hoopla over the sin of abortion and same-sex marriage, I have for years because the same people that feel so adamantly about these two sins can't stand, even hate the President elect due to the color of his skin. Many of the likes of people possibly on this site and other places in the world in the Christian world are deeply embedded racist, and they wont allow the lord to touch that part of their life.

We are only fooling ourselves, only fooling ourselves, Not the Great Lord Jesus

In a nutshell, We again, gag at a gnat and swallow a huge camel.

With all due respect to my brothrs and sisters, we have an entire slew of sin to confront, so Please for the Lord's sake, for Christianity's sake, stop making sooo much of those two sins and consider the prelude sins, the sins that bring about the by-product or result of Abortion.....


We NEED to repent Church, we are a sin and a shame

:-? :-( :-(

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Godsfire...

Since you were quoting me, I'll try to respond.

I believe many wept because their candidate didn't win!

Well, if you read the post, you will understand that you aren't talking about me. I wept for the reasons that I wrote. This had far less to do with a candidate and more to do with issues of righteousness and unrighteousness. I didn't weep out of self-pity (like it seems you imply). I wept out of a hurt regarding the probability of future murder of millions of unborn babies. I wept that people voted for a candidate based upon style rather than substance. A scientific poll that I quoted (not sure if in this post or elsewhere) showed that the overwhelming majority of Obama supporters could not name a single stance of his regarding policy. I wept at the thought that so many people would choose to vote yet remained so uninformed.
here is is brother,

Abortion is the by-product or result of all of our pitifulness and wickedness, So many get soooo caught up into the subject sins such as Abortion and Homosexuality, and rightfully so,

But, Be aware that both of these sins are a result of a lack of desire and want for God to be Lord of our households and personal lives.

I think that all who stand against abortion try to make that clear too. It is a root of selfishness. Women are worried that a baby might change their lives -- so they choose to MURDER the child. Homosexuals want to appear normal in their lust, so they push government legislation and propositions in order to make it seem like people think it is normal.
I get weary with all of the hoopla over the sin of abortion and same-sex marriage,
...and yet I get weary over the knowledge that it goes on. I get weary that there isn't enough "hoopla" made that would cause this holocaust to cease.

I have for years because the same people that feel so adamantly about these two sins can't stand, even hate the President elect due to the color of his skin. Many of the likes of people possibly on this site and other places in the world in the Christian world are deeply embedded racist, and they wont allow the lord to touch that part of their life.
Friend, I think that you misunderstand. No one here cares about the color of Obama's skin or his mixed race heritage. We are believers. In fact, I really haven't heard a single person who didn't like the fact that Obama is black. In fact, from the polls that I have seen, this was a strength in his election attempt. Several polls revealed that Americans were more likely to vote for him BECAUSE he was black. In fact, I would go so far as to suggest that he might not have even been a nominee if he was the same person but in John Kerry's body.

But you seem to equate a hate for abortion and the sin of homosexuality...with racism? You are saying that most of these are the "same people." Racism is an ugly thing -- no doubt there! Yet ironically, the GSS (General Social Survey of 2004) revealed that minorities are the most likely groups of Americans to be morally opposed to abortion and gay marriage. How can we attribute this to race? Can't we stand opposed to abortion, homosexual activism AND racism?

We are only fooling ourselves, only fooling ourselves, Not the Great Lord Jesus

In a nutshell, We again, gag at a gnat and swallow a huge camel.

If abortion is a "gnat" -- then yes, I am gagging.

With all due respect to my brothrs and sisters, we have an entire slew of sin to confront, so Please for the Lord's sake, for Christianity's sake, stop making sooo much of those two sins and consider the prelude sins, the sins that bring about the by-product or result of Abortion.....
Yes, there are many sins...and the root of most is pride and self. But these are issues of righteousness. Sin is a reproach to any nation! These include abortion, homosexuality and racism. As believers, we can preach out against all three. As believers, we can weep when a nation accepts any of them for the sake of self.

G
GodsFire

I did read your post brother, but i was not declaring that you are a racist or hypocritical, but many are......

I can sense it brother, just in my heart and in my experience with life.....

Yes, we all are gagging, we are acting just like pharicees in our partiality and blindness.
Hey brother, I wouldn't speak such things if they weren't true....

We believe what notable preachers say, why is it so hard to hear what i am declaring....
I get htis from AW Tozer and Leonard Ravenhill, as well as what I have seen in this life.....

I am a black man, that is in terrible love with our Jesus, I follow Him, and I can see that I may not be spending too much time here because I do not feel as though God is being received through the words that I am declaring.

God is great, and we are His, but we just have come nearer the cross, that is the completeness of what i am declaring.....

No brother I hate abortion, Homosexuality, and all sin my very self, but I believe the church is now picking and choosing, many feel as though the black man is the "boogey man", this is what I have heard among christians and others.......

Now He is just going to be a "baby Killer". He doe not approve of killing babies, he approves of people having a choice, just like Jesus.

We cannot force the hand of any human, I have counseled young women that didn't want to go into a clinic fo an abortion, and they found out online how to abort their pregnancy with a coat hanger and other methods.....

Brothers, uunfortunately, we are living in modern day Rome where such things rampant and society is already Godless and they desire that which is "ill". It isn't just because of Abortion and Same sex marriage, it is because we are careless Christians, and we do not love God, only to our own grief and selfish desire.


Let us all continue to cry out for God to search our hearts....

Let us pray desperately for President elect Obama out of fairness, he is a human, he is a man of conviction, and we can seek God to help Him. OH brethren, I voted for NO one, too much controversy.....


Jesus Saves

S
sermonindex

The term baby killer has been thrown around with exclusivity to Obama. We must remember that he is not the only man who is pro-choice in our government. Many more are responsible in the political office, as well as us, America...the citizens of this country. Remember we as conservatives controlled the house...and what did we do for the unborn babies? nothing! It is just another carrot they wave in front of the public to get votes and then ignore it when they are in the office! If we really want to play apart in our government for change, it doesn't stop at the voting booth. We can all be upset and tarry over this election, but when it comes down to it...it is nothing more than playing the lottery; pick my numbers and hope it hits and if it doesn't try again next time.

I voted conservative as always. My guy lost, it is what it is! What is upsetting is that we all get worked up because it's the election year, the electricity is in the air. But what do we do, when it's not election time? Most gripe and complain on that day of election and the day of the aftermath and then that is it!We change the channel.

I have my personal convictions about voting and activity in the political process. I have made efforts numerous times to call and write my local and state representative in the past, but within the past year I have had some doubts and convictions for me personally in my level of involvement. But I would not say to someone else, they should not be involved if they feel they should. I will hold my convictions to myself though.

Blessings

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi GodsFire...

I think that I understand where you are coming from. My wife is Hispanic...a first generation American citizen. She and her large family traveled around the country performing migrant work after legally immigrating here (when she was in the fifth grade). At one point, her parents and nine brothers and sisters lived in a one-bedroom aluminum travel trailer (actually taking showers outside behind a blanket with a water hose). Ironically, she said that she received the most racism from those groups that are supposed to help the poor. She said that it was almost offensive to be treated like she was an inferior human being simply because she could hardly speak English or that they were so poor. Her parents refused to take welfare -- because it was for the poor (and they didn't see themselves as poor).

When my wife met me, she was shocked to learn that race (or more correctly, ethnicity) just didn't matter to me or my family. My parents never even thought twice about it. In fact, I doubt that the subject was ever brought up when we were growing up, because our family had many friends from various backgrounds. Yet my wife remembers the hesitation in the eyes of some people with whom she has spoken. When she was in college, she was afraid that professors would let her get by simply because she was a Hispanic female. So she made every effort to work as hard as she could to do impress them. This was true of her entire family. Each of them (with the exception of the two youngest) has graduated from college (the two youngest are currently in school). Her dad and mom still cannot understand English, and her dad works as a part-time janitor at a local Wal-Mart. I will say this: She feels more racism here in the San Francisco Bay Area than when we attended grad school in Texas.

Sin is all rooted in pride...and self. It doesn't matter if it is lying or something as hideous as racism: The root is self pleasure. But wasn't this prophesied in II Timothy? Men would be lovers of themselves? Yet sin has existed since, well, the Garden of Eden. Racism, murder and even homosexuality are all recorded in the first book of the Bible.

In an election, I choose the things that matter to me the most (or are most clear). In the past few elections, the biggest issue has been abortion. One party ideology (and usually, presidential candidate) has promised to promote it while the other at least promised to oppose it. This, in my view, is a matter of righteousness. I cannot stand silent. Yes, there are other issues that matter (like homosexual marriage, racism, etc...). In the matter of this election, there wasn't a party that promoted "racism" as a platform (although some would have us believe it). Yet there was a single party and platform (and yes, candidate) who was promoting abortion...and even gay marriage as a "fundamental human right." Fundamental? Human? Right?

If the election were between two major candidates who were similar in views, I would probably have stayed home. There would have been no compulsion to act. Yet, this time, I felt compelled to vote. It wasn't just the major issue of abortion: There were other issues as well. These were, like I said, matters of righteousness as I care too much about my wife, family, neighbors, strangers, believers and temporary country. It wasn't really a candidate that mattered -- but the issues upon which each stood or promoted.

Dear brother, I certainly agree with your call to pray for the President elect! I believe that the heart of a king (or a President) is in the hand of God. I pray that God grabs ahold of Mr. Obama's heart and reveals Himself to him. I pray that God will do to the President elect everything that I pray for God to do in and with me -- to see His face. I rejoice in the fact that a hypothetical hurdle has fallen in regard to race relations in this nation. Yet I still stand (well, kneel) in prayer for the unborn...and other matters of righteousness.

Thank you brother, for opening up and sharing this great encouragement!

G
GodsFire

God bless you my dear brother in Jesus,

One brother has moved me to tears, and I want to tell you brother that i do not think that candidate was stating that in and of itelf that he wanted fundamental rights for or against abortion or homosexuality, He simply believes in giving people the freedom of making their own choice and that no one is to treat them as less than a human.

I absolutely feel as though John McCain was the best candidate as far as the military experience is concerned, but his ideals also stink.

So what I am about to say is this, Politicians say what they have to say to get elected.

Nevertheless, this country has gone to hell in a handbag a long time ago, and this is the way it is to be, God would have His people to stand for righteousness sake

C
crsschk

GodsFire,

Have read a lot of your responses and really feel that you are drawing some very misconstrued impressions here.

Dear brother, please, slow down O.K.? We are are very serious and dedicated bunch and there is a wealth of resources, thought, sermons, articles and the sharing that goes on through this forum. It is now over 5 years worth of material that can be delved into with a bit of creative searching ...

Your timing likely has a lot to do with many of your comments and I must say honestly and lovingly that you are contributing a great deal to the political aspects by getting all entangled up in the particulars of personalities and so forth. Originally it seemed you were distressed over all the political talk to begin with so it is a bit difficult to do both- denounce on the one hand and contribute on the other.


Many of the likes of people possibly on this site

Dear brother that is not only a presumption it is completely untrue, how can you guage what has transpired here over years in a matter of a few days and a handful of postings?

I am a black man, that is in terrible love with our Jesus, I follow Him, and I can see that I may not be spending too much time here because I do not feel as though God is being received through the words that I am declaring.

Well praise God! In all sincerity. I am a man who has often been very tempted to answer the question of what "color" I am on forms as "Tan" as it used to be my ... love of water skiing and the like. Dear brother there is none of this here, never has been and never will be ... sigh, it is grievous that it is even brought up.

Now as to your duration and receptiveness, again that is a presumption and only one that can be fulfilled by yourself if that is how you feel and how you might have set your expectations.

Please brother, we are very happy to have you here and I would be remiss if I didn't encourage you to really delve deep into the bowels of this site, it so incredibly [i]rich[/i]. It is a very peculiar setting in that there is a lot of striping things back to plain, heart searching, guttural levels. Many of us are so 'non-denominational' that we find that term ... practically divisive. What I mean to say is that there is a great challenging of the 'camps' and mindsets that collide and make us all think and re-think. Calvinism and Armenianism - A blurring of the lines not in compromise per se but in finding where [i]we[/i] are off in our constructs. The Puritans - Wesley and Finney and Oswald Chambers- Tozer and Ravenhill - Zac Poonen and Art Katz - Keith Daniel and John Piper and so many more, some are on the surface as far as apart as can be, different perspectives and yet ...

It's just different brother, it really is ... We have worked very hard to keep things cordial and accessible, stopping divisiveness and ill-will when it rears it's ugly head and allow a freedom to still express what has got to be the most difficult thing on the planet, our spiritual lives. Many things are misconstrued and misunderstood. I pray you hear my heart and sincerity.

To others here ... Some of the postings are starting to get out of hand, pushing the bounds that are so loosely defined here in this whole regard of politics. A lot of speculation is being forwarded and it is not very healthy for us frankly nor for this site. Please, be considerate and consider - Consider others, consider what is edifying, consider whether it is worth it and try and think out in front a bit and see if there is not a thought of "where this might lead to" if I carry this out, post my opinion etc.


G
GodsFire

Yes Mr Moderator, I have read n re read my post, and I understand that many will misinterpret, but I am not concerned with that as much as I am concerned with expressing God from what He has given me to give to you.

I do it in love, real love, I am not a divider, and I understand your info and responses, but many here who you are trying to convince me of as pertaining to the serious nature of such, God has placed in my hear through prayer and listening that motives even through this thing called venting is wicked whether we consider it with "good intentions or not".

My call to all of us just since I have been here is that our tone looks and appears to be so sincere, and it probably is, but our actions aren't a response of our broken-ness. This is general bro, not any particular people, of which I do not know personally, but I belief we express what I call "pipe dreams" or in other words, we want it, but we still don't have it......

We are waiting on something so miraculous to get us right. I am trying to articulate it. We simply need the Lord Jesus.

I am not delving into political politics for the sake of entertaining politics, there is a sense that we are indulging so much into subjects, this forum, that we can easily be distracted from the forum of God with many of our opinions and distasteful responses about Mr. Obama....

I simply believe that He is a man just like GW BUSH, or any other President that has disgraced this country. He deserves our prayers and our our loving prayers, even our tears, not tears of what he is going to mess up, but what we need the Lord to in he and his families life....

Brothers and sisters, I am not taking anything the wrong way, and we all have a very human or fleshy nature that has to be dealt with. I understand we are serious, but Mr Moderator, I am responding as one that does not hear or deal with such comments or railings about another person or persons.....

Maybe it is that many of you all have been saying such things for so long that it is common place to receive it or to accept what is being said without much notion that they are offensive, fleshy, and they lack the Luster of Christ....

When I saw this site and the forum, I was initially impressed, and I still believe the forum can be encouraging...

Please do not respond in a mean-ness or vengeance for what I have said, I just believe God has blessed me to speak concerning this and to listen.....

In Jesus Christ brethren

G
GodsFire

I am not gauging this from being here for such as short period of time, I am gauging it from the manner in which it is spoken. The things that we are consumed with eventually surfaces in terms of subjects, issues, and how vehement we tend to be about them at the core.

Brother Moderator, it has just struck me in that manner. I mean to hurt no one or make false assumptions.

The heart of God precious towards men, even when we are completely obstinate, He finds a way, His way, to bless us with His lovingkindness.


In Jesus

M
MrBillPro

Wow! I have not read much of this yet, but I will pray for out new leader and I will also personally give him a chance. I sure am not going to condemn or judge someone that has not even took office yet. :-)

G
GodsFire

MrBillPro,

That's one of my points, I believe that this man has a very open heart, but we all shall wait n see....

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

I think that it might be time to let these threads die down. The election is over...although issues of righteousness and unrighteousness, prophecy and conjecture, etc... will continue.

There are much more pressing issues at hand. For instance, do we love our spouses, children, neighbors, strangers, etc... enough to share the truth with them in both word and deed?

I think that we can all agree to pray for Mr. Obama. I completely disagree with many of his stands on issues, but I will pray that God mold him into the type of man that I myself want to be. This world is certainly going to Hell in a handbasket, but we do not have to be idle catalysts to that fact. We can preach the Good News that life does not end when our breathing stops. We can look forward to either eternal bliss...or eternal punishment. Yet it is an honor to seek, know and fellowship with the Lord even in this fallen Earth...no matter the circumstances.

If the election were held today, I would vote the same way I did on Tuesday. But it has passed. Sometimes, God raises up the leaders that we need AND don't need in order to remind people to place their eyes upon Him. Isn't that all that really matters anyway?

Pray.
Hope.
Love.
Worship the Lord.
Proclaim and live the truth.

:-)

G
GodsFire

I get your point over n over brother, you have expressed how you would vote if it were happen again quite a few times.

again, I am not trying to pump up the Obama effect, I just get that feeling from you my brother. It is all about God rules and Jesus Rocks. :-D :-)

H
HeartSong

GodsFire,

There is error here:

He does not approve of killing babies, he approves of people having a choice, just like Jesus.

God loves all of His children equally - the unborn child is of the same value as the child that is carrying it. This word, or concept of choice is "painting" the unborn child as being something other than human so as to disregard any rights that it may have - so that it can be murdered without remorse.

If someone does not have any concern for the life of a defenseless unborn child, what makes you think that they have any concern for yours?

G
GodsFire

Nevertheless HEartSong,

I agree with you questin at the end of your post, BUT He allows us to choose,

If we want justice then we will choose justice, if we want sin and degradation, then we will get just that.

Jesus does not twist our arm, so why should we allow government legislature to twist our arm one way or the other.

We are to do God's bidding as He leads and guides us....

I am anti-abortion, but people must have the chance to choose ye this day.......Josh24:15

I Do not believe in anymore Theocracies, God had one before, and that was Israel, Not the US of A, or any other country.

His other "theocracy " if you will is the Church of Jesus Christ, thats right, the Kingdom of God is our government......

Jesus is not coming back for a country, but He is coming back for a body of believers that have thoruoghly been wash, and in the process of washing themselves and saving themselves from THIS untoward generation.

Blessing in Christ :-)

H
HeartSong

Are you saying that I should have the right to choose to kill you?

G
GodsFire

No, not at all, nevertheless, that is your choice.

We are in a very degrading place in history, and it isn't considered by all that this is a crime.

So what I am attempting to itterate is that people(women)should have the right to make this very difficult choice:

1. Every women does not see this as a sin or crime

2. This is NOT a THEOCRACY, we christians or Zealots in this case are misusing this issue to make it our agenda because there are a great many sins that we are serious guilty of.... Ie

Self Righteousness

RACISM, and yes, I do believe it though xperience and observation that this is definitely alove among the body of believers

extreme fear

Church Degradation

We(The Church) is also the problem for much of the Mess that we live among

Etc....
So, I believe the issue of Abortion is just another degrading issue among the great body of believrs that need to be prayed against.

We aren't on earth to fight our causes, and we haven't been called to fight aginst our causes, but the Cause of Christ.

With Love
The Fire

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi GodsFire...

So what I am attempting to itterate is that people(women)should have the right to make this very difficult choice:

1. Every women does not see this as a sin or crime

2. This is NOT a THEOCRACY, we christians or Zealots in this case are misusing this issue to make it our agenda because there are a great many sins that we are serious guilty of.... Ie


Women have a "right" to make such choices? Then why stop at abortion and gay marriage? How about polygamy? Pedophilia? Infanticide? Public nudity? Public sex in the shopping mall? Lowering the age of sexual consent to 8 yrs old? Legal drugs use?

Believe it or not, there are groups that have advocated such things! The ultimate legal question is this: Does a state or court have a right or responsibility in defining what is right or wrong? If the state says one thing, does a particular group have the right to force that state to redefine morality to fit their goals?

Abortion is murder...and no person should have a right to murder a helpless, defenseless child.

Obama supported this right. He promised to support it in every way possible with his power as a President. He also supported Proposition 8 for gay marriage (at least in some advertisements here in California). These issues have less to do with "racism" and more to do with matters of righteousness and unrighteousness. Then again, abortion is ROOTED in racism. Not only was it created to unfairly target African Americans and Hispanics as a means of eugenics by the founder of Planned Parenthood, but it is a crime against the HUMAN RACE -- that was created in God's own image and for God's own purpose. Life and death should not be given to the power of a single, selfish mother who worries that her life might change if she doesn't murder her child.

Race is not the issue. Murder is.

That being said, I have already begun praying for Barack Obama with all sincerity. I have prayed for him before the election, but now with much more diligence. I pray that he has a "road to Damascus" experience. I pray that Mr. Obama hungers for God even as I do. More than eight years ago, I prayed often for President Bill Clinton. I didn't like the criticism that he faced that seemed more personal. Yet I do not regret that people spoke out against abortion and other sins.

After all, isn't that what a government of consent is? We can still go to an unrighteous king (or president) and ask him to grant our request.

I will not direct my criticism at Barack Obama any more than John the Baptist pointed out the sins of Herod. Yet I am aware of the consequences. Yes, this is not a theocracy. But this nation was not created by men who completely ignored the Scriptures either. It is a government of consent created by men who at least pretended to fear God and respect the faith. Secular humanists (and even members of the Body of Christ) have attempted to change that history. Some seem to argue that the Church should sit back and do nothing (of course, pray...which we should be doing regardless) but watch as the communities of our families and neighbors degenerate even further at the requests of small groups of activists.

The case is undeniable: Abortion is murder and the government does not have the Biblical (or Constitutional) authority to give that right to a selfish woman.

S
sermonindex

1. Every women does not see this as a sin or crime

Most people dont see gambling as a sin or a crime, yet in most states gambling is illegal.

Some people dont see prostitution as a sin or a crime, yet in 49 states it is illegal.

Sin is sin. Period. It matters not what WE think about it.

Krispy

G
GodsFire

I am going to withdraw from this conversation, for we do not see....

You are right there are no issues but Abortion or the murder of defenseless babies that have become the by-product or result of a degraded nation.....

So if a Law is made to appease You or many who feel the way you do, then what is that to say that these same women will not find another illegal and more dangerous manner in which to conduct pregnancy termination. I am forty years old, and I was born in louisiana where there are butchers, and old neighborhood baby-butchers that did such things because the thought of bringing a child into this world under those conditions were considered embarrasing( I agree),

It still happens, we just don't touch the issue, and it will contiune when a band or law is created....

The things you mentioned in the first paragragh, exactly my point! The laws are there to govern, but the nation wants the laws they want. But we the church are trying to stand up for defenseless babies, of the which I understood this from day 1, but We the church attempts to make this issue number one and all the others are to just fall where they may.

That is mighty hyocritical of we the church, the poeple of God, this is my concern, not whether babies should or shouldn't be allowed to be aborted......

The same with Homosexuality or race, no matter what is addressed and how, America has already declared what it wants, Revelation is already written & must be fulfilled , the books are already open on this Nation.

Sin is Sin, all of it is HORRIBLE, and it is why we settle for such horrors, Humanity wants to do what it wants to do with NO moral or HOLY guide...

You have rejected my point, and you missed the weightier matter....

I am through with this issue no matter who understands or not!

With Love,
The Fire

M
Miccah


GodsFire wrote:



I am through with this issue no matter who understands or not!


Well, at least you are teachable. :-(

K
KingJimmy

Hey, umm... could we take some of this discussion elsewhere to a new thread perhaps? I don't think this was quite the theme of the original post. Thx

H
HeartSong

Someone just emailed this to me. I do not know anything about Dutch Sheets, but what he is saying below addresses many of the issues that we are speaking of in this thread. - O Lord, shed light upon Your people. Give us understanding in these matters . . . Help us to see O Lord - help us to see Your heart.

November 6, 2008

I feel certain that many in my stream of the Church want a statement from me concerning Tuesday's presidential election. I will be frank in my remarks but I do not, however, intend to vent anger or attack anyone. I have read several statements from friends and colleagues I respect very much.

Their thoughts are well stated and, for the most part, insightful. None of them, however, seem to want to say some things that I believe need to be said. I do not claim infallibility or to have the final word, but my convictions run deep and I believe I bear a God-given responsibility to share them.


Was This God's Will?

Was what happened Tuesday God's will? I am quite confident it was not. America was offered a very clear choice between moving further toward protecting the unborn or further away; between a Supreme Court that would move toward honoring God, life and morality or away from it. The stakes couldn't have been higher nor the cost greater. As a nation we put on blinders concerning Barak Obama's background, associations, beliefs and practices, and set these causes back years, possibly decades.
And in doing so we took another step away from God and His plans for America, and another step toward judgment.


Judgment Will Increase

This is not a fire and brimstone warning from an angry, legalistic preacher. In fact, I feel more sadness and grief than anything else.
Perhaps I feel what Jesus felt as He wept for Jerusalem while announcing its judgment. I am not hoping for judgment; I am saying it is inevitable. I don't know where the unbiblical belief comes from that says a nation can live any way it pleases, can reject God and His ways-even mock Him-and not receive His judgments. Nor do I know when the belief came that it is always mean-spirited or judgmental to warn of these things. To the contrary, I believe it is our responsibility.

In warning of judgment, I am not suggesting that God is going to intentially and directly hurt people. Much judgment is simply the absence of God's protection and provision, caused by a rejection of His laws and ways. We have been experiencing some forms of judgment in America for years, but God in His incredible patience and mercy has kept us from the level we've deserved. I believe this will change to a degree and judgment will now
increase:

For those in the Church who aligned themselves with pro-abortion forces, I believe judgment will result.

For leaders in the Body of Christ who refused to take a stand for fear of losing people, money, and tax-exempt status-I believe there will be a degree of judgment.

For those, both within the Church and without, who voted money over morality-a potential raise or better health insurance over the life of a baby-there will be judgment. (The irony is that this decision to base one's vote on the hopes of a better economy won't produce the hoped for result anyway. The scriptures teach that it is righteousness which exalts a nation and that the nation is blessed whose God is the Lord.)

I have heard the argument that God cares as much about social justice issues (such as poverty and racism) as He does abortion, making a vote for Obama OK. I certainly believe God puts a very high priority on caring for the poor and I, too, have wanted to see equality demonstrated through a "minority" president. But to equate having a better income or the desire for a first black president, regardless of his positions on abortion and morality, to the issue of killing 50 million babies is not justice-it is a gross distortion of justice and great deception. I fear that we have been desensitized to this issue of abortion. I believe it kills babies and takes innocent life. I also believe it is blood sacrifice that empowers demons. Let's not forget this in our noble attempts to be kind and conciliatory.

For African Americans I can easily see how it could bring healing to have a first black president, just as it would be for Native Americans to achieve this or for women if a woman were elected president. Again, I have wanted to see justice in this way. I am only saddened that the price for this healing ended up being Barak Obama, a man that will set the cause of life and, most-likely, our God-given destiny as a nation back so drastically. (I also realize there are some who interpret any criticism of Obama as racism. Racism is so NOT what I am about nor what I live, that I will not even dignify any such accusations with a response.)

What Can We Expect?

What are some of the judgments we can expect on our nation from this election?
More economic woes
More violence in an already violent nation
Disease and death (satan, who is responsible for these things will have greater inroads to our nation.)
Natural disasters (weather-tornadoes, hurricanes, floods, drought; fires; earthquakes; etc.)
Terrorism (they will fear us much less now)
War, perhaps on our own soil
Judgments relating to the Court. The stacking of the Supreme Court against the sanctity of life and God's influence on America will occur, which will in turn cause the shedding of more innocent blood, more rejection of God's laws and the stealing from us of our godly heritage-all of which will perpetuate a cycle of even more judgment.


How Did This Happen?

I've been asked if this could have been averted had there been more prayer. I'm not sure. I believe there was a remnant of Christians fervently praying over these elections-I don't think there was anything more they could have done. Others, obviously, should have done more. The complacency and lack of discernment concerning our real condition in America-especially by the Church-is both appalling and horrifying. America is in serious trouble and it seems no one wants to say it. Fewer still are willing to do anything to change it.

Though I understand our reasons, we must be careful in our attempts to placate our feelings and calm our fears through religious phrases like "God is still on the throne" or "God has a plan". He was on His throne 35 years and 50 million babies ago. And He had a plan back then. The problem is, it was us. I understand our reasons for waving high the banner of God's sovereignty at times like these-it gives us hope. I will wave it, as well.
But please be careful with this. Too much emphasis on God's sovereignty and we're worthless; too little and we're hopeless. Maybe we should say, "we lost a critical battle but God will give us strategy to win the war." Then find the strategy.

But still yet, since God is usually willing to work through a remnant, I thought we had enough prayer. Obviously, God decided otherwise. There comes a time when He will not forgive or bless the majority based on the prayers or actions of only a few. America rejected God and asked for a king; I believe we now have our Saul (see 1 Samuel 8:5-7)-a man who does not have God's heart for America but his own. Like Israel in scripture, our nation believes it can turn from God and still be blessed. In His mercy and justice He will show us otherwise.

Like many, believing I had many promises and confirmations that God would "grace" us with a pro-life president in this election, I failed to consider strongly enough that all promises-even scripture-are conditional 99.9% of the time. Though I never prophesied or made guarantees that McCain-Palin would win, failing to factor this principle in strongly enough no doubt caused me to share my optimism with others inappropriately. If this caused any harm or confusion, I apologize.

Has the fact that my prayers weren't answered shaken my faith? No. I'm a little confused and discouraged. I'm also somewhat angry at the nation in general and much of the Church. Mostly I'm grieving over the nation and what this will cost us. I am not, however, angry with God and do not question His justice. And it is not true that we wasted our time, energy and money in our efforts anymore than it is a waste when we share the gospel with people who don't get saved. We must keep in the forefront of our thinking the fact that ultimately we are doing this for Him and that He will reward us for our faithfulness. And who knows, perhaps He will store up all those prayers for the next battle (Revelation 5:8, 8:3-5).

A friend and fellow warrior said it well,

"We did 'give it our all.' I know the Lord was pleased with that. A coach wants to know one thing at the end of a heartbreaking sports loss: 'Did you leave it all on the field?' (your passion, your commitment, your strength, your courage, etc.) I know that we 'left it all on the field.' We didn't hold anything back until the game ended. Tragically, it ended in defeat. We will rise for another day because Jesus is worthy."

Where Do We Go from Here?

Does this election outcome shake my faith that we can see a great awakening and ultimately reformation in America? Absolutely not (and it strengthens my resolve). We will simply get there through greater pain and loss. Even my passion to see the Supreme Court shift is not from a presupposition that there can be no spiritual awakening without it. It is simply due to my deep conviction that their decisions bring so much death, destruction, curses and judgment to America; and because our full destiny as a nation is unquestionably linked to their decisions. So, yes, we will get an awakening and reformation; but the reality is that this reformation of the nation will reform the Supreme Court (and government, in general), not vice-versa. My faith has never been in people or a political party; my faith is in the God who works through them.

I've been asked if my feelings about Sarah Palin have changed. They have not. I believe she is an Esther, a Deborah, with a huge mantle from God for reformation. God has a great destiny for her related to this nation if she chooses to continue down this path.

So, in conclusion, we must re-group as an apostolic, praying church and advance. We must maintain an immovable faith in God, His plans for America and His mercy. And we must move beyond simply asking God for a spiritual awakening and ask Him for strategy to produce reformation, as well. I, for one, am just getting started!

For God and this great nation,
Dutch Sheets

H
HeartSong

I was just praying and the Lord showed me something.

In this election God made the distinction clear - black and white - we chose black.

I am not referring to skin color here, but in this case, to make the choice even more obvious, He had the outside reflect the inside.

He brought both Palin and Obama from out of no where. Their morals and values were clearly shown - the line was drawn in the sand - we have no excuse.

Oh people - how we must pray!

G
GodsFire

Dutch Sheets has more mainstream, tbn, televangelist,missionary, but he has always sounded a little different than the rest...

In a more serious manner...

If i say anything more on the previous issue or if i respond to heartsong I will be ralied upon, and I feel as though many aren't listening except to to what they have already indoctrinated in their heart & mind.

All I will say, and brother Miccah, I am very teacheable, but it is to avoid descent among the brethren if at all possible. but if descent must be, then it will be because of the stones that are still prevalent around our hearts, not because i am trying to make someone see what i want them to see, no my brothers, I am TOOOOOOO small for that.....

Let us await & see, I do not care to play I told u so games, but Our attitudes can be quite bias here. I am determined to say nothing more of a possible controversy until it is time...

In Christ brethren

J
janny2006

QUOTE "
For leaders in the Body of Christ who refused to take a stand for fear of losing people, money, and tax-exempt status-I believe there will be a degree of judgment. quote ""

just heard from friends , in California, people invite church leaders/pastors to attend theCall- corporate prayer meeting to ban gay-marriage (support proposition 8)
there was pastors refuse to attend the prayer meeting because they think they will lose their church members. how sad :-(

M
moreofHim

Was what happened Tuesday God's will? I am quite confident it was not.

I have a hard time believing that anything happens apart from God's will. When you read the Bible- it is pretty clear that God does as He pleases and that He is in control- even of evil men. He can use even unGodly men to accomplish His purposes- Joseph's brothers, King Cyrus, etc...

King Cyrus was not a worshipper of God. In IS. 45:4, it is states that he didn't even know God. But God can use a worldly leader even when he doesn't acknowledge that he is being used as an agent of God.

My 2 cents :)

In Him, Chanin

H
HeartSong

GodsFire,

We may not see eye to eye, but may the Lord bless you, and this nation, as we come together and pray.

G
GodsFire

Praise the Lord brother HeartSong and Others from whom ALLLLLLLLL our blessedness comes


8-)

C
crsschk

Was what happened Tuesday God's will? I am quite confident it was not.

What Can We Expect?

What are some of the judgments we can expect on our nation from this election?

More economic woes

More violence in an already violent nation
Disease and death (satan, who is responsible for these things will have greater inroads to our nation.)

Natural disasters (weather-tornadoes, hurricanes, floods, drought; fires; earthquakes; etc.)

Terrorism (they will fear us much less now) ...


Back in August however we have ...

[i]Just a couple of weeks ago, however, I heard the Holy Spirit very clearly say to me, “I’m about to unravel the cords of confusion.” When I heard this I had the sense that He would begin to do it in September. In 2 Chronicles 20, [we read that] God used the Israelite’s worship to “ambush” their enemies. The result was that these enemies destroyed one another! Expect the confusion to break off the church this fall and God’s enemies to be ambushed."[/i]

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=1&topic_id=23686&forum=35&post_id=&refresh=Go]The Lakeland Outpouring & Todd Bentley by Stormharvest[/url]

The confusion being generated is from his very own lips and these men and women continue to spout whatever notion crosses their minds as so called prophetic utterance without any checks to their own misconstrued discernment. I now see that his site has been revamped and the archives of 'prophetic' gobbledygook has gone missing, unless of course you would like to pay for it in book form.

Secondly, the politics have been given their day in the sun here, we have been more than patient, more than long-suffering, more than tolerable. The election is over, if you must talk shop about it, if you cannot refrain and restrain yourselves then I am sure there are many other forums\\blogs out there where you can avail yourself of this burden. Enough.

[i]Redundantly[/i];

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=14144&forum=13&post_id=&refresh=Go]MUST READ: SermonIndex Forum Disclaimer / Community Rules[/url]

Last and not least, this matter of race ... In the five years I have been here I have never seen the amount of conjecture ... what's the word? This is a [i]non-issue[/i], it's long over and drawing attention to it as something that needs further clarification, for crying out loud the vast masses of 'heathens' have a better grasp than the children of the Light? Does Gal 3 need to be repeated here?

Please do not PM me with your explanations. This forum has something to uphold, something true and guttural and heart searching, we will not let it be dragged down into the gutter.

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