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A different political action

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ChrisJD

Hi everyone,

I was thinking tonight and wondering to myself,

I wonder what would happen if the Christian Church in America got together and petitioned Congress and the newly elected President, to delcare a National Day of Prayer, Fasting, and Repentance for the sins of forced slavery and racial hatred commited by our fathers. And to pray for true unity and reconciliation among us, and for forgiveness for the Chruch in America for it's involvement in these things.

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ChrisJD

I realise that many of us may be angry with political liberals for not agreeing to our political agenda.


Perhaps we could show humility in this by asking them to do something like this, by showing them humility in asking them to help us to repent.

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BVO

I know sometimes my thinking is not perfect (lol) but instead of petitioning congress and president elect, or and other secular body, let the christian church petition the Lord of glory to act on His own behalf because of our petitions to turn the hearts of these people to Himself that e might receive glory and that we might live peaceable lives. It is easiest to picture our focus to be pointed to that which is seen, but if we focus on our Heavenly Father, and let Him know our our needs and concerns, He will act miraculously on our behalf. I met a friend at WalMart last night and was telling her that God has set up prompts for me to pray. Obama and government is when I see gas prices. Because I notice gas prices, but I don't want them to be my focus, I take it as an opportunity to pray fro our leaders who God placed in authority over me. The bottom line is that if the church can unify to petition government, why don't we lock arms and seek God? With Love, Barry

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ChrisJD

Hi Barry! Thank you for your response and thoughts here and I agree with you in petitioning God together!

"The bottom line is that if the church can unify to petition government, why don't we lock arms and seek God?"


I agree brother. But maybe here, we could do both?

I think a petition like this would be appropriate for us and if I could I would like to share why with you and others.


Because the sins of forced slavery and racial hatred were committed in a country like ours, which has had the Bible and the Gospel, and a visible Christian Church, so mingled within the different aspects of it's society, because these horrible evils were comitted among a people like that, over hundreds of years, I think it would be entirely appropriate for us, for Christians, and especially white Christians living in America, if we, being willing today to publicly confess and acknowledge these evils done against those who were black, perhaps many also themselves Christians, if we being willing to express with one voice and one heart our deep sorrow and regret that such could have ever happened in a land such as ours, and wanting to express that to those our brothers and sisters who may yet be alive today themselves having experienced those things and living with a present memory of them, and to not only them but to all other citizens of this country, who for whatever reason may be biased against the testimony of the Christian Church or hold against us as a grievance these sins of the past both distant and not so long ago, that taking such an opportunity as is now, I think it would be entirely appropriate for us to ask our Government officials to call upon us and others willing, as a nation, to humble ourselves in acknowledgement of these things, and in repentence for them, and in seeking God to heal our land and bring true harmony and peace and equity between the peoples of this land and a thourough healing of heart and forgiveness of all grievances and wrongs and a restoration of trust between them.

I think it would be appropriate,


with love,


Chris

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ginnyrose

I have serious problem with this concept.

Problem #1: what is the motive? Reasons this is a problem to me: Racial hatred today is being fermented by leaders who have a political stake in keeping the 'slavery issue' alive. I live in the heart of Dixie and I know of no white person who thinks slavery was right, no one. If there were any they have long since been dead. Brother, the racial hatred you see today is coming from the people of color. Rev. Jeremiah Wright is the poster boy for this hatred. People who hate have a heart problem that only God can fix.

Problem #2: Since when are the children responsible for the sins of their ancestors?
Reasons this is a problem to me: Each man is responsible for his own sin and not the sins of his ancestors. Ezekiel 18: 19-22; Jeremiah 31: 30.

A few years ago the Reformed church in Switzerland asked modern descendants of Anabaptists to come to a meeting where they wanted to make a public apology for the persecution their ancestors afflicted upon them. The attendees felt these people were very sincere and honest with their confession. However, since then, people are questioning the motives: was it a ploy to rope modern, conservative Anabaptists into the ecumenical movement? and the critics argue that their ancestors would have been appalled with this meeting. God remains the judge, but I am wary of these public confessions.


Problem #3: Who is calling for this petition?
Reasons this is a problem: not everyone had an ancestor who was a slave owner. Mine never did. And I would guess most southern whites didn't either. (Only 15% of whites in MS were slave owners. And many were good to their slaves.) Will you also ask the Choctaws to participate in this time of confession? Local Choctaws also owned slaves and they are Indians. Not many but they existed.

Another thing: this sounds so political, politics wrapped in religious garb - it scares me. If you are interested in promoting racial harmony, go make friends with people of color -do it one at a time. Now that will be enduring - it is what we do in our community.

Many whites here in our part of the south count among their friends people of color. They will eat together is restaurants, hug each other after a long absence, even in public. Enjoy each other, laugh together...the hatred you are talking about is likely more prevalent in the north then in the south.

This is my take on this issue...if you decide to do this, don't expect everyone to be excited about it and in pursuing it you could drive wedges deeper. Would people feel compelled to participate for political reasons, to make them look good to blacks when in their heart they have serious theological reasons to not do so? You better think seriously and seek the LORD's leading before trying it.

My opinion...

ginnyrose

PS: Before you get bent out of shape for a southern woman's insight on this matter, it may be of interest for you to know I am a transplanted Yankee! I know the hearts, feelings of people in the north - that is where I was raised and still visit occasionally.

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PaulWest

I wonder what would happen if the Christian Church in America got together and petitioned Congress and the newly elected President, to delcare a National Day of Prayer, Fasting, and Repentance for the sins of forced slavery and racial hatred commited by our fathers.

You know, when these types of discussions arise I can't help but wonder if any earthly government should be expected to concede to the wishes of evangelical followers of Jesus Christ. Did the early church lobby Rome to implement a day of fasting, prayer and repentance for the sins and atrocities of the Senate? Fasting, prayer and repentance are conducive within theocracies, church bodies, spiritual organizations - but not to be expected within the confines of secularism. As far as I understand, we as believers should expect to have about as much political clout as the anabaptists did in England circa 1650, or as the early Christians did in Rome or Ephesus.

Which doesn't mean we purposefully rebel or disassociate ourselves from any kind of secular legislature: it just means we put things in their proper perspective according to the Word of God and lifestyle example of Jesus Christ, Paul the Apostle and the early church. We shouldn't really expect to have a favor with the government and/or rulers and demogogues of secular societies which they never had. Let us enjoy the peace God has granted us up to this point, but to put demands upon the government and have our expectations dashed when it isn't fulfilled, to me, demonstrates how we've taken an inch by grace and now want the mile by demand. Brethren, I fear the inevitable is certainly coming, where we, as the body of believers in North America will soon experience the wholesale reality of the true cost of being called by God. Some of us will shockingly discover that the political staff we're accustomed to lean on for support now pierces our hand and draws blood.

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ChrisJD

Hi Ginnyrose! I'd like to try to respond to some of the concerns you raised. Thank you for taking the time to express your thoughts.



what is the motive?

I would hope that it could be something similar to what I suggested before


"...to express with one voice and one heart our deep sorrow and regret that such could have ever happened in a land such as ours"


Since when are the children responsible for the sins of their ancestors?

I don't see this as being an issue of responsibility for what was done, but rather as as an opportunity for the professing Church in America to acknowledge in very clear and unambigous language the great evil that it was for such things to be done in the presence of a 'Christian people'.



Who is calling for this petition?Reasons this is a problem: not everyone had an ancestor who was a slave owner.

The things done against black people in this country go way beyond the era of slavery and into recent decades. As to who would be calling for it, I guess it would be those who are sorry that it happened and want to express that to all, and especially those still living with the wounds of it.



Will you also ask the Choctaws to participate in this time of confession? Local Choctaws also owned slaves and they are Indians. Not many but they existed.


Maybe that would be a good idea also, for another day? But Ginnyrose, what is the point here? Besides what evil has been done to other people, we are here talking about black people right now, who were stolen from their lands and forced to work as slaves(by the way, the penalty for manstealing was death under the law of Moses). And who were treated as subhuman beings for decades afterwards. And what, this should be dismissed because, as you put it



...many were good to their slaves


What???


What????



this sounds so political, politics wrapped in religious garb - it scares me.

The only thing political about it would be asking the Government to help in making(EDIT removed 'it' to correct grammer) the desire for such a thing a matter of public interest and national attention. The Mayor of New York City gave a proclamation for the Prayer In the Square Event held this year.



If you are interested in promoting racial harmony, go make friends with people of color -do it one at a time.

I have. I do. I live with one. She's my wife.


Would people feel compelled to participate for political reasons, to make them look good to blacks when in their heart they have serious theological reasons to not do so?

Ginny, I'm not sure what theological reason you are talking about here?


The Lord Jesus said that if our brother has anything against us, that we should go and be reconciled to him. And likewise, that if we have anything against our brother, we should go and tell him.

I think it is strange that we should find the concept of a public demonstration of our desire to be reconciled to one another and to heal the wounds of our nation's past, o difficult and so full of problems, to people with a simple heart.

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ChrisJD

Hi brother Paul,

Brother Paul, about this,

"Did the early church lobby Rome to implement a day of fasting, prayer and repentance for the sins and atrocities of the Senate?"

The early Church did not live under the rule of a government whose institutions and public life were so mingled with the Bible and a profession of the Christian faith.


I thought recently about the Dalits in India who I have read have also been terribly oppressed in their country for centuries.


I wondered what it would be like for them, if India had been so much described as a Christian nation, and Gospel for Asia was coming to them like they are now with the Gospel.

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ChrisJD

Hi again everyone.


Ginnyrose, I'm sorry but I thought to respond to one more thing from your response, for the sake of clarity.


About this,



I live in the heart of Dixie and I know of no white person who thinks slavery was right, no one.

I' don't want to suggest that we should come together to declare that forced slavery and racial hatred were 'not right'.


I mean to suggest that we come together and delcare that forced slavery and all of the multipled acts of racial hatred that accompanied it were grotesque and monstrous.

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MaryJane

Greetings Chris

I would not be able to sign this kind of petition, I agree with what Ginnyrose shared here. I feel for me to sign a document and ask for forgiveness of a sin that I did not commit would be a lie. Also if you going to do this over slavery then what about asking for forgiveness from the Indains, this was there home before we came here and terrible, horrible acts happened to them as well. And what about the Hispanic community, they lived in California, Arizonia, New Mexico, Texas, ect, before we came and took it from them???? How many petition should we have and when does it all end? Mans evil and hatred toward man will only end when those that are living in rebellion to God repent and seek His kingdom, not with petitions. Just my heart on this....

God Bless
MJ

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ChrisJD

Hi MaryJane,


"I feel for me to sign a document and ask for forgiveness of a sin that I did not commit would be a lie."

Right. But again, I don't think we would be asking for forgiveness as individuals, but on behalf of the Christian Church as a whole, [b]as it has been represented in America in the past[/b].


Again, was suggesting this for those who[i]... being willing to express with one voice and one heart our deep sorrow and regret that such could have ever happened in a land such as ours[/i]

Also,


"...if you going to do this over slavery then what about asking for forgiveness from the Indains, this was there home before we came here and terrible, horrible acts happened to them as well."

Right. But we are not talking about those things right now. And maybe it would be appropriate to do something in that regard also. But I do not understand this notion that because other evils were committed in this country we should ignore them all or fail to acknowledge with greif and shame the responsibility of the Church in this history?

What's more, I think the issue of forced slavery(African peoples stolen from their lands and forced to work as slaves) and the [b]multitudes[/b] of acts of racial hatred that have persisted for centuries against them, right up untill present decades, is worth making special considerations of.

"How many petition should we have and when does it all end?"


My suggestion was to start with one.

"Mans evil and hatred toward man will only end when those that are living in rebellion to God repent and seek His kingdom, not with petitions."


Agreed, and I want to be clear I didn't suggest the idea of a petition to somehow gain political leverage to right a wrong. The idea in my mind is that such proclimation would invite more people to take [b]our desire[/b] to express our sadness over what happened, seriously.


Again, this suggestion isn't for people who don't care about what happened. Just those that do. And who would want to express that to others.

Thanks MaryJane.

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MaryJane

Greetings Chris

I guess my only issue with you is this statement that you wrote...

Again, this suggestion isn't for people who don't care about what happened. Just those that do. And who would want to express that to others.

......
Just because i do not agree with your idea of a petition does not mean that I do not care about the sin or hurt in the world. I care very much, but I do not feel convicted to sign a petitions. I believe strongly in help, caring for and demonstrating the love of Christ daily as Father gives provision with others is what His will is for me to do.

Anyway if this is Fathers leading for you then you should pursue it....No matter what at the end of the day let us agree that Jesus be lifted up and glorified in our actions and that what we do, we do to further His kingdom:-)

God Bless you Chris and your family
MJ

H
HeartSong

For what it is worth, I have repented for the deeds of my ancestors - it was something that the Lord led me to do.

I am Dutch - all of my grandparents came over to the United States on the boat from Holland. It was not too many years ago that I found out that it was the Dutch people that were responsible for much of the persecution of the black people in Africa, and that they were heavily involved in the slave trade - this information coming to me after many years of trying to figure out just what it was that my family had against black people.

When I found out what had happened, I was angry because it made no sense. First you persecute a people, then you steal them, and then you treat them as if THEY have done something wrong.

It is my opinion that many of the Dutch people know that they (the Dutch people) have done wrong - but there are not many that I know of that would ever admit it. In fact, growing up, I was always told that "we" were special - that "we" did not need to follow the rules. From what I have heard, anyone that tried to move to town that were not of "our kind" were driven out.

After the Lord got a hold of me, He had me repent of the things that my people had done. It was so very cleansing - taking away the anger and the bitterness - uprooting any bad seeds that were sown as a result of growing up amongst this hatred.

Earlier this year, after reading something about the diamond industry, I put it all together - De Beers - diamonds - Africa. They did it all for money.

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ChrisJD

Hi again everyone,

Heartsong, thank you for sharing with us some of your own heart and past. Thank you.

MaryJane,


"I believe strongly in help, caring for and demonstrating the love of Christ daily as Father gives provision with others is what His will is for me to do."


You're right. I think my comment before that you mentioned was wrong and I shouldn't have wrote it, especially the way I did. Thank you!

As I was thinking about this last night, I remembered a recording I listend to about evangelisim and the man asked the audience two questions: one, if they cared about the those who were lost and two, if they cared enough to do something about it.


I hope that, in the days and weeks ahead, I can, with the wisdom and inspiration and leading of God, find some ways, even if small, to say and to show those who may still live with the scars and questions of the racial hatred of the past, that I care also. And that I'm very sorry for what was done. And that I rejoice to see the day when a man that is black has reached the highest office in this land. For that I am so happy.

Thank you MaryJane for the blessings and may God heap them upon you also,


God's deep love be with you all,


Chris


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ginnyrose

Chris,

I just do not get it - this thing of apologizing for something you are not responsible for. I do not read where Jesus taught it, nor the apostles. Somehow, I sense there must be something else afoot here which I have a problem identifying on one hand and on the other it seems obvious...if that makes any sense.

While you are at it, will you then invite the black Africans to participate - like you did us here?- in your apology? You see the slave trade could not have been successful without the local blacks (in Africa) assisting in this traffic. FYI, many of the people purchased were POWs that happened when there was fighting amongst the tribes in Africa and there were some who then saw a way to make money, so off to the slave traders they went.

Brother, this thing gets real messy once you start apologizing for behaviours you are not responsible for...not only is it not Biblical, it will get you so wrapped up in social issues that it will divert you from your calling to follow Christ. Chris, I hate to say it but as long as there will be people - on this side of eternity - there will always be classes of people who will feel like they are being taken advantage of, that they are the victims of injustice. We cannot go back and undo another person's wrong. But what we can do today is love people regardless of social, ethnic, religion or economic situations. We are commanded to love our neighbor and that is the person close to where I am. Make a difference there. Can't fix the past or the whole world!

My take on this issue. And I have discussed this with my husband as well, and we both agree....

Blessings,
ginnyrose

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InTheLight

Sorry to jump into this discussion so abruptly but I just wanted to add some thoughts here.

If we do not hesitate to seek God for mercy on behalf of our nation, I don't see why it would be inappropriate for us to also humble ourselves before God for national sins.

I believe there are several examples from Scripture we could look at, the one that comes to mind first is the prayer of Daniel in chapter 9. Daniel confessed the sins of a nation before God being a part of that nation; and since Daniel knows his God intimately and he knows that God hears his cries, he is in the position to seek and confidently expect that mercy will be given.

In Christ,

Ron

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ChrisJD

Hi again everyone,


Ginnyrose,


"I just do not get it - this thing of apologizing for something you are not responsible for."

Ginny, I think I addresed this in response to MaryJane. I'll cut and paste that here again, alright? Her question is in qoutes...

"I feel for me to sign a document and ask for forgiveness of a sin that I did not commit would be a lie."


Right. But again, I don't think we would be asking for forgiveness as individuals, but on behalf of the Christian Church as a whole, [b]as it has been represented in America in the past[/b].


I do think there is a Biblical example for this to consider also,


"Now in the twenty and fourth day of this month the children of Israel were assembled with fasting, and with sackclothes, and earth upon them. And the seed of Israel separated themselves from all strangers, and stood and confessed their sins, and the iniquities of their fathers."


- Nehemiah 9:1-2(KJV)


[i]...and stood and confessed their sins, and the iniquities of their fathers[/i]

See the verses that follow also.

What has made me think of this issue on more than one occasion is the question and I mean it as a question because I do not know, but I wonder if the Church in America has ever with any sort of unified voice confessed this evil that was done? And said that it was a sin to have happened?


It seems to me like things have moved along without this ever happening?


Also, about this

"While you are at it, will you then invite the black Africans to participate - like you did us here?- in your apology? You see the slave trade could not have been successful without the local blacks (in Africa) assisting in this traffic. FYI, many of the people purchased were POWs that happened when there was fighting amongst the tribes in Africa and there were some who then saw a way to make money, so off to the slave traders they went."


I think anyone that felt sorrow that it happened could participate? Why not?


But, your question, and the way you phrased it here, particularly with the refrence to other people being involved besides the white slave traders, it strike me sort of odd? It almost seems as though we're trying to blow smoke over the issue so as to obfuscate the guilt of those who bought slaves and forced them to work for them?

Spreading the blame around makes it look better for everybody.


But, John Newton must have felt something of remorse for what he did, when he wrote the words to Amazing Grace.

"...there will always be classes of people who will feel like they are being taken advantage of, that they are the victims of injustice."

But Ginnyrose, they were victims of terrible injustice. And not only them, but their 'free' descendents.

I thought today of how the Lord Jesus said that whoever would give a disciple [b]a cold cup of water[/b] in His name would not loose their reward.


Striking to consider that a young black girl who was a Christian wouldn't have been allowed to even drink from the same water fountain as a girl that was white. In such a nation as ours.

Striking, would you agree?


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ChrisJD

Hi everyone.


I have been thinking more about this issue over the past couple of days and as I have I've been thinking about about the idea of forced slavery and racial hatred in comparison with the Gospel and commands of Christ. Some things have stood out to me.


I was reminded how, when the children of Israel repented and confessed their sins and the sins of their fathers in Nehemiah chapter 9, it says they devouted a 4th part of the day to the reading of the Law.

Before I share this, I recieved an email tonight from my brother-in-law. It was about a news story where a store in Kansas City had printed a racial slur on a reciept they gave to one of their customers that returned an item. I didn't believe it until I followed the link and watched the story on-line.

[b]Some contradictions of forced slavery and racial hatred against the Gospel and commands of Christ[/b]


Instead of carrying anothers burden an extra mile, forcing them to carry yours their whole life.


Instead of giving and asking nothing in return, taking everything and giving nothing in return.


Instead of being those blessed by being those that mourned, making others to mourn.


Instead of leaving houses and lands and family for the sake of the Gospel, taking men and women from their families and lands for your own sake.


Instead of being great by being another's servant, making yourself great by making others your slave.


Instead of taking the Gospel into all the world and making disciples of the nations, you went into the nations and made slaves.


Instead of giving a cold cup of water to a black person that was a disciple, forbiding them from drinking from your water fountain.


Instead of breaking the Holy bread of Communion with black brothers and sisters, forbiding them from eating in your resturaunts.


Not just calling your brother a fool, but worse than that, less than human.

A man arrayed in purple, feasting sumptuously, with not only Lazarus, but his whole family living in shack outside his house, and they being left to clean their own sores and wounds which you gave them by your whip. And for food they were given pigs feet and intestines.

The Jews, as I understood it, looked upon the Samaritans as a half-breed and had no contact with them. When the Lord Jesus was asked who our neighbor was, he told the story of the 'good samaritan'. What then of segregation of race by law?

Reading in Revelation 18:13 that one of the items of merchandise sold with Mystery Babylon was the souls of men.


I think the most striking thought that occurred to me, was the idea of a man that professed to have the same Spirit as the One that qouted Isaiah 61:1 and applied it to Himself, to claim to be united to Him and refuse to share the Gospel with those they were enslaving.(Edit: I don't know if this was ever the actuall case or not, but I thought that since slaves were not allowed to read that it could have been true? someone can correct me if I'm wrong here(thanks))


[i]Edited to correct spelling errors[/i]

R
rbanks


ChrisJD wrote:
Hi everyone,

I was thinking tonight and wondering to myself,

I wonder what would happen if the Christian Church in America got together and petitioned Congress and the newly elected President, to delcare a National Day of Prayer, Fasting, and Repentance for the sins of forced slavery and racial hatred commited by our fathers. And to pray for true unity and reconciliation among us, and for forgiveness for the Chruch in America for it's involvement in these things.




What Christian church in America are you talking about? The true Christian church is not of this world. The many different organizations in America that call themselves Christians are very much divided. Who would be the Leader of this national day of prayer? Would Jesus really be a part of something that is of this world?

All true Christians (born again) are new creatures in Christ and their old man is forever crucified with Christ. Those who have been crucified in Christ have been blood washed and forgiven. Those who sinned against God and their fellowman, and have already died never receiving Christ as their Savior, will pay for their own sins.

The true Christian Church is separate from this world and the Lord Jesus will not organize His Church with the unregenerate. Jesus Christ is the Head of His Church and I just don’t see Him petitioning Congress and the newly elected president for any kind of prayer of apology. Jesus will have a glorious church and He will have nothing to do with any kind of apology. Each individual will have to give an account for his own sins, only those who have been to the cross have been reconciled to God and forgiven.

Most of the people who have been involved in these sins are dead and if they didn’t repent before they died then I’m afraid it is too late. I don’t believe in being baptized for the dead. I don’t believe God will forgive someone else if I repent for them. Jesus is the only one who died for the whole world and everyone is going to have to go to Him personally. I don’t believe I can make restitution for someone else’s wrong. They are to make restitution for their own wrong.

I for one am not ashamed of Jesus Christ, and by his grace, I will not drag Him into something that would bring reproach to His most excellent name. Jesus Christ had nothing to do with any wrong doing, never has and never will!

Jesus is definitely not a politician!!!

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ChrisJD

Hi rbanks, did you read the entire thread before you posted here?


If not, I would ask that you could do that and see if you still have the same questions that you asked.


Thank you,


Chris

R
rbanks

Brother Chris did you read all that I wrote because I stand by it unless you can prove from the Word of God where I am wrong.

Brother we are to receive salvation and healing through our Lord Jesus Christ. We are to forget those things that are behind us and to reach for those things that are before us.

We are to lay no blame on Christ and His church. The accuser of the brethren is the devil and let us not give him any place.

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ChrisJD

Dear rbanks,


"Brother Chris did you read all that I wrote because I stand by it unless you can prove from the Word of God where I am wrong."

Yes, I did read your post brother, that is why I asked you if you had read this thread in its entirety because I think that at least some of the things you asked were addressed. I think it would be helpfull(if you have not already) to go through the thread and read the responses and if you still have the same questions let me know?


Wish you well,


Chris

S
sermonindex

Being southerners, as Ginny, rbanks and I are, perhaps we have a different perspective on this issue.

If I do not have to stand before God and repent for the sins of my ancestors, then I do not understand why I have to do so before men.

I'm all for racial harmony. It's kinda ironic that the CD in my Jeep right now is the "I Have A Dream" speech given by Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. If anyone has never heard it, you should.

Here is the thing about the church asking this present Congress and President elect for what you are suggesting... with them it is ALL about politics.

I am burned out on politics right now, as are most Americans... but this needs to be said, and it directly relates to what you are suggesting here. The Republicans lost this election because they chose a man who will not stand up for Conservative values. They thought if they acted more "moderate" (liberal) then they would win. But since when have the Democrats ever even tried to act conservative in order elections? They don't. But we conservatives are expected to bend over backwards for them.

In other words... this liberal government of ours is all about take take take.

No, the Church of Jesus Christ should never bow a knee to any government. Respect them and pray for them, and obey their laws so long as they do not cause us to violate God's Word? Yes. But bow before them? No.

Now, what you're leaving out of all of this is the fact that [b]church[/b], millions of Christians in America, were responsible for the end of slavery! Yes, there were those preachers in the south who preached the "curse of Cain", and preached that slavery was scriptural. [b]BUT[/b]... the majority did not. The majority of true Christian churches in the south did not preach in favor of slavery. You dont hear about them because the victors of war write the history books.

And Ginny is correct, that while slavery was a curse on this country, many slave owners did treat their slaves well... educated them, and most of all taught them the Bible. There were huge revivals (like the ones we say we're praying for on this forum) among the slave populations in the south. That never would have happened if they hadnt been taught the Word of God. How did that happen? Think about it.

That doesn't condone slavery, but it does prove that what Satan meant for evil God turned it into good.

On the other side of the Mason-Dixon there was the abolitionist movement... which was extremely Christian. It was a Christian movement led by the preachers! Harriet Beacher Stowe wrote the book "Uncle Tom's Cabin" which created a fire-storm in this country in the 1850's. Lincoln met her during the Civil War and said "So this is the little lady that started this war!" She was a preachers wife. (by the way, I've read this book twice... it's fantastic... it'll tear your heart out)

The [b]CHURCH[/b] is the main reason slavery ended in this country. And now you expect the church to apologize for something it didnt do? For what? Appeasement? No way.

I'm part Cherokee... why dont y'all apologize to me for the Trail of Tears?

Some of my white ancestors were the biggest outlaws in the state of North Carolina 140 years ago... should I serve jail time on their behalf?

No, I'm responsible for my sins. You are responsible for your sins. Do I sympathize with the black community? I sure do. I coach football with some black men. I coach black football players. We love each other, and I understand completely that they have been thru hell as a people. But I have done my part to "judge them not by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character", just as Dr. King said we should.

I owe no man an apology for something I didn't have anything to do with. To do so would be to put man above God... because God does not require me to apologize for something I didnt do.

Everyone in this country just needs to grow up and take responsibilty for themselves and stop worrying about their ancestors did... or who owes me... or what I'm entitled to... or bending over for people in order to appease them.

Christ's Bride bows to Christ... not man.

Krispy

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By the way... contrary to what people are taught in school, most southerners did not own slaves. That was reserved mainly for the upper class, the aristocrats. My ancestors were dirt farmers, mountain people and Cherokees.

The vast majority of southerners who fought in the Civil War couldn't have cared less about fighting to preserve slavery. It wasnt about slavery for them... it was about a foreign army invading their state, their home. Back then people considered themselves North Carolinians first and Americans second. Thats how things were back then. They were fighting to protect hearth and home, not so some rich aristocrat in Charleston or Biloxi could keep his slaves.

There were a lot of platitudes spouted about, of course. States rights, etc... but for the common southerner it was about defending their homeland.

Yet most people from other parts of the nation think every southerner was a slave owner, every southerner is a racist, every southerner belongs to the KKK... and it's all a lie. As if there was something magical about the Mason-Dixon line that turns people into cross burning racists! It's rediculous.

It's like how some ignorant people think all Pentecostals handle rattlesnakes. Stupid generalizations is what it is.

I'm not old enough to remember the Jim Crowe days. Fortunately that passed just before I was born... but I know many black people who do remember it. One of the guys I've coached with in the past is a 72 yr old black man. He's told me some stories that would raise the hair on the back of your neck.

But you know what? He never once made me feel like I needed to apologize to him for the Jim Crowe days. You know why? Because he knows I had nothing to do with it. He knows I see him as a man, and treat him as an equal... because he is an equal. He's my brother. We're all equal... and I hold that truth to be self evident.

So again I say "no" to the church apologizing for something it didn't do just to gain the acceptance and favor of a godless bunch of politicians in DC.

Krispy

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ChrisJD

Hi Krispykrittr,

"If I do not have to stand before God and repent for the sins of my ancestors, then I do not understand why I have to do so before men."

This has been responded to twice in this thread. I'm not sure why this continues to come up, except that either the rest of the comments here are not being read, or this objection is being raised so as to make the idea being suggested here seem unreasonable. No one is being asked to give an answer for the sins of others, as though being chargeable with their guilt, which I think is what I responded to here...


"...again, I don't think we would be asking for forgiveness as individuals, but on behalf of the Christian Church as a whole, [b]as it has been represented in America in the past[/b]."

In Nehemiah chapter 9, when the children of Israel were returning from exile, it says that they stood and confessed both their sins and the sins of their fathers. I don't understand exactly what the objection is to a public acknowledgment of the evil of these things that happened in the past and in the recent past?


What's more, are we suggesting here that racial hatred and seperation of any kind somehow does not exist anywhere in America or especially even among any Christians? That all beleivers in every part of the nation are entirely free from any sort of bias or prejudice, or unholy feelings or resentment of any kind towards those of different skin? if not, what then would be the objection to praying and fasting and confessing these things? Or seeking God for genuine heart reconciliation between black people and white people in or out of the Church?


Also, about this,


"Here is the thing about the church asking this present Congress and President elect for what you are suggesting... with them it is ALL about politics."

When I suggested this...


"Perhaps we could show humility in this by asking them to do something like this, by showing them humility in asking them to help us to repent."

I had hoped to make a point about humility in going to those who we feel are wrong and seeking their help. It seemed to me that admitting your wrongs before others that count you their enemy could help to change their attitude towards you.


I'm reminded of a story that is in one of Pastor Wurmbrand's books called 'Jesus, friend to terrorists.' He tells the story about a Christian man that lead a labor union in Japan through a conflict over a decrease in wages. One of the ways he brought resolution to the issue was to send a delegation to the President of the company. He suggested that they bow before the President and applogise to him for being so insensitive to the needs of the company and to tell him they would work without [b]any wages[/b] to show their faithfulness.

Maybe that sounds extreme. But it seems in keeping to me with the attitude of the One that washed His disciples feet. Maybe radical submission and humiliation, even when you would be well within your rights to maintain your own innocence and righteousness is just what is called for when wounds and divisions run deep, or when hatred and suspicion and anamosity prevail.

I think to focus on our own rights and on the [b]political[/b] nature of the initial suggestion here is missing the point.


About this,


"Now, what you're leaving out of all of this is the fact that church, millions of Christians in America, were responsible for the end of slavery! Yes, there were those preachers in the south who preached the "curse of Cain", and preached that slavery was scriptural. BUT... the majority did not. The majority of true Christian churches in the south did not preach in favor of slavery. You dont hear about them because the victors of war write the history books."


The subject here is the evil of forced slavery and racial hatred among a Christian people. It may be appropriate to mention the other things when you are writting a history book, but how is it helpfull when you are talking about [b]acknowledging the evil that was done?[/b] It gives me the impression that you're trying to diffuse it by clouding the issue.


But what if what you said is true about the millions of Christians that ended slavery, did they then in turn open their Churches to their black brothers and sisters? Were black people suddenly treated as equals and even humans? Were they invited en mass into "white churches" to partake of Holy communion? Were the millions you are talking about suddenly opening their homes to care for them? Or raise their voices in protest when they saw them being hung from trees?

About this,


"And now you expect the church to apologize for something it didnt do? For what? Appeasement? No way."

Maybe I'm grossly informed about the history Krispy, so please do correct me where I may be mistaken. Are you suggesting that white Christians treated black people for 400 years according to the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ?

What, becuase the brutality was eventually ended it didn't happen?


Like I said, maybe I'm very mistaken. I didn't know for instance that black slave Christians could attend white Churches and that they broke bread together in fellowship. After all, the white slave owners that treated them so well must have surely esteemed them better than themselves. I didn't know that?


Or that they were considered equals in Christ, after all, in Christ there was no slave in America, is that right?

"Yes, there were those preachers in the south who preached the "curse of Cain", and preached that slavery was scriptural."


But, it was nothing?

C
ChrisJD

Hi again Krispykrittr,


About this,

"Yet most people from other parts of the nation think every southerner was a slave owner, every southerner is a racist, every southerner belongs to the KKK... and it's all a lie"

Are you saying that black people in the south were treated by white Christians according to the Gospel and commands of Jesus Christ?


Edit:

"As if there was something magical about the Mason-Dixon line that turns people into cross burning racists! It's rediculous."

I saw much racism as a child in the late 70's early 80's in Canton Ohio. You are right. Racisim is and was elsewhere.

And Richmond Virginia. I lived there too.

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sermonindex

Are you saying that black people in the south were treated by white Christians according to the Gospel and commands of Jesus Christ?

By true Christians, yes... thats exactly what I am saying. You need to differentiate between Biblical Christians and religious christians.

There was a strong movement all over the country, and even in the south to abolish slavery. Obviously in the south it was squelched by the state governments, AND federal laws as well... such as the Fugitive Slave Act that was put in place in the early 1850's.

But perhaps you've never heard of John Brown? While he was born in the north, he was living in the south and loosley organized a revolt against slavery. Trying to lead a violent revolt against who? Not just slave owners, but also the federal government who allowed slavery to exist by their own laws. John Brown claimed to be a Christian, and was passionate about his cause. I cant say that I agree at all with his tactics... but he was filled with righteous anger over how his brethren who were black were treated in this country.

He was put to death by [b]the federal government[/b]... the same government you want the Body of Christ to bow down to and ask them to help us repent! How crazy is that?

You cant just stereotype all southerners like you are. You would rightfully condemn me if I stereotyped black people in any way, shape or form... yet you generalize and stereotype everyone else.

The [b]TRUE[/b] church was there... fighting to abolish slavery! Thats my whole point! I will not apologize for the actions of others when all along God's remnent was on the right side.

Thats like asking me to apologize to Muslims for the Crusades just because the Catholic Church erroneously calls itself a "christian" church.

I love ya, Chris. We've had good conversations in the past. But on this one you have your mind made up, and you are not listening. And I've never suggested that slavery was ok as long as they were being treated nicely.

At this point I'm bowing out of this conversation because the only thing that will come from it is contention for the sake of contention.

By the way... when you say things like [i]"Are you saying that black people in the south were treated by white Christians according to the Gospel and commands of Jesus Christ?"[/i] ... you are speaking in gross generalities. You simply can not do that.

I'll make ya a deal tho... as soon as the Body of Christ apologizes to me for the Trail of Tears, I'll join you in bowing before our government and apologizing for slavery (which my own ancestors had nothing to do with).

But ya know what... I dont need an apology. I wasnt there. Neither were you. And it was never a point of contention between you and I until you made it one.

God had a remnent, my friend. Just as He always has. That remnent was the true church, the true body.

Krispy

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And Richmond Virginia. I lived there too.

Richmond? Thats as far south as you've been? You need to visit Ginny down in Mississippi!

Come see the autumn leaves here in the mountains (tho they are pretty much gone now), or come in the spring and smell the magnolia, jasmine and honeysuckle.

Krispy

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sermonindex

By the way... I just wanted to mention this.

I didnt vote for Obama. Had nothing to do with his skin color, it had everything to do with polotics.

And I didnt watch his victory speech... but I did see clips of the audience, and I was moved. They zoomed in on several folks, and even Jesse Jackson (who I can not stand), and they had tears streaming down their cheeks.

Why? I know why.

I could see in Jesse Jackson's eyes that he never thought he would see the day that a black man would be elected president. Thru all the struggle of the Civil Rights movement, thru all the years of Jim Crowe... all the ancestors born into slavery... and the ancestors captured and brought here...

... and here was a black president of the United States of America.

In 40 years America has gone from hosing black people down in the streets to electing a black man President.

Wow. It's very moving to see that on those people's faces.

Now, I absolutely think he is the wrong man for the job, but I can certainly understand what was in the hearts of those folks that night.

Krispy

H
HeartSong

... as soon as the Body of Christ apologizes to me for the Trail of Tears...

I will apologize to you Krispy - I have already asked God to forgive me and the people that came to America for what they have done, and continue to do, to the American Indians. But if you desire a direct apology, then please accept mine, for I am a member of His body, and therefore a representative thereof.

As this thread continues, I am reminded that God does not see things as separate events in time - and just as sap flows through the trunk of a tree and then out to the branches, it would seem that corruption in any part along the way would bring corruption unto the leaves.

Time is a bubble in the sea of Eternity

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sermonindex

I will apologize to you Krispy - I have already asked God to forgive me and the people that came to America for what they have done, and continue to do, to the American Indians. But if you desire a direct apology, then please accept mine, for I am a member of His body, and therefore a representative thereof.

As this thread continues, I am reminded that God does not see things as separate events in time - and just as sap flows through the trunk of a tree and then out to the branches, it would seem that corruption in any part along the way would bring corruption unto the leaves.

*sigh...* Did you not read my whole post? My point was [b]I wasnt there[/b]... and [b]neither[/b] were you! You didnt do anything to me, and you didn't do anything to my Cherokee ancestors.

Nobody owes me anything! I am to judged by my fellow man by the content of [b]my[/b] character, not by the character of my fathers. The same goes for you.

Did you not see in the same post you're responding to that I said the following? :

But ya know what... I dont need an apology. I wasnt there. Neither were you.

As long as we live in a society where people whine about "you owe me" or "I'm entitled to" or "You offended me"... etc... we'll [b]never[/b] be able to move forward.

I do not accept your apology because the Trail of Tears to me a historical thing. It doesnt effect my life one bit. What I do see are a lot of my "brethren" in the Cherokee nation who have no education, no job and live off welfare and Casino checks.

Thats pathetic. There is no excuse for anyone not to get an education and better themselves. None.

Paul said "If a man will not work, let him also not eat" ... and said that if a man does not support his family he is worse than an infidel.

But our government has successfully created a group of people who live off the government. Color doesnt matter, they are black, white, red, etc.

My point of bringing up the Trail of Tears is to show that injustice was done to many by America over the years. Not just African Americans. But thats usually all we hear about. Gratefully America has done much to change that. We're not perfect but we are much further down the road than we were even 40 years ago. What we need to stop doing is saying "you owe me!", or on the other side feeling guilty for something none of us had anything to do with... and MOVE FORWARD.

True Biblical Christians are the ones who brought about change in this country in regards to slavery... stop listening to the public school garbage. It wasnt Lincoln, it wasnt the government. Slavery to them was a political rallying point to give "cause" to the Civil War. Just a mere 5 years before the war the Federal Government was continually passing laws to keep the black man in chains.

It was [b]Biblical Christians[/b] who forced change. And [b]Biblical Christians[/b] have much to be proud of... we owe NO ONE an apology.

Get a history lesson.

Krispy

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I said I was bowing out of this conversation... and now I will. :-)

Please, dont anyone else apologize to me. It's silly. (No offense, Heartsong)

Krispy

H
HeartSong

It doesnt effect my life one bit.
How do you know this to be true?


My point was I wasnt there... and neither were you!
But God was there - and God is here now.


And Biblical Christians have much to be proud of...
And in this you are dead wrong.

C
Compton

Here is an interesting article relevant to this topic. (I posted it a couple of weeks ago.) Regardless of your position on the issue of apologizing for the wrongs of past generations or other people groups, the author here offers some insightful perspectives to consider.

False Apology Syndrome – I’m sorry for your sins.


By Theodore Dalrymple


There is a fashion these days for apologies: not apologies for the things that one has actually done oneself (that kind of apology is as difficult to make and as unfashionable as ever), but for public apologies by politicians for the crimes and misdemeanours of their ancestors, or at least of their predecessors. I think it is reasonable to call this pattern of political breast-beating the False Apology Syndrome.

Mr. Blair, the then British prime minister, apologized to the Irish for the famine; one of the first public acts of Mr. Rudd, the Australian prime minister, was to apologize to the Aborigines for the dispossession of their continent; Pope John Paul II apologized to the Muslims for the Crusades. There are many other examples, and there are also demands for apologies by aggrieved, or supposedly aggrieved, groups.

What is this all about, and what does it signify? Does it mean that at long last the powerful are making a genuine effort to see things from the point of view of the weak, or is it, on the contrary, a form of moral exhibitionism that subverts genuine moral thought and conduct?

Let us examine briefly the apology for the Crusades as an example of the whole genre. It is not exactly a new discovery that the Crusaders often, perhaps usually or even always, behaved very badly. It is not in the nature of invading armies to behave well, even when discipline is strong, morale is high, and control of the foot soldiers is firm; it is no secret that these conditions did not exist during the Crusades, to put it rather mildly.

They were, however, rather a long time ago. The Crusades were an attempt to recover for Christendom what had been lost by force, with all the accompanying massacre, pillage, and oppression that the use of force in those days implied. No one, I think, expects an apology from present-day Arabs for the imperialism of their ancestors, either as a matter of moral duty or political likelihood. We are all born into the world as we find it, after all; we are not responsible for what went before us.

Of course, we may take pride in the culture and achievements of our biological or political ancestors — indeed such pride is necessary for the preservation and development of any civilization — in which case it is only right and proper that we should also face up squarely to the less glorious aspects of our heritage. But this is a matter for genuine historical scholarship and moral reflection of the kind that leads to a determination never to repeat the crimes, not for sound-bite sloganeering. The world would be a better place if academics in the Islamic world faced up to the fact (and were free to face up to the fact) that their religion does not have a peaceful historical record, just as the world has become a better place because the Germans have acknowledged the recent historical record of their country. If large numbers of Germans, including their leaders, started to say that Germany is what it has always been, namely a land of peace, the rest of the world would have good cause to tremble.

But official apologies for distant events, however important or pregnant with consequences those events may have been, are another matter entirely. They have bad effects on both those who give them and those who receive them.

The effect on the givers is the creation of a state of spiritual pride. Insofar as the person offering the apology is doing what no one has done before him, he is likely to consider himself the moral superior of his predecessors. He alone has had the moral insight and courage to apologize.

On the other hand, he knows full well that he has absolutely no personal moral responsibility for whatever it is that he is apologizing for. In other words, his apology brings him all kudos and no pain.

This inevitably leads to the false supposition that the moral life can be lived without the pain of self-examination. The locus of moral concern becomes what others do or have done, not what one does oneself. And a good deed in the form of an apology in public for some heinous wrong in the distant past gives the person who makes it a kind of moral capital, at least in his own estimation, against which he can offset his expenditure of vice.

The habit of public apology for things for which one bears no personal responsibility changes the whole concept of a virtuous person, from one who exercises the discipline of virtue to one who expresses correct sentiment. The most virtuous person of all is he who expresses it loudest and to most people. This is a debasement of morality, not a refinement of it. The end result is likely to be self-satisfaction and ruthlessness accompanied by unctuous moralizing, rather than a determination to behave well.

The effect on some of the recipients of such apologies is likely to be very bad also, for similar though slightly different reasons. Let us take the demand for an apology for the Atlantic slave trade as an example.

I doubt whether anyone could be found nowadays who would mount a moral defense of that trade. That it was hideous and cruel beyond all description hardly needs saying, and what does not need saying should not be said, at least not often, for otherwise the lady doth protest too much.

The demand for an apology supposes that there is a clearly definable person, or group of persons, who can be held responsible for the trade, or at the very least to have been the beneficiaries of it. In other words, the world can be neatly divided into historical oppressed and oppressor, victim and perpetrator.

Most historical situations and their consequences are more complex and ambiguous than this simple schema would suggest, and the slave trade is no exception. For medical reasons having to do with relative immunity to malaria, if for no others, the supply of slaves depended crucially on the co-operation of African suppliers who captured slaves for sale. No apology from their descendents is required. The trade was abolished almost entirely through the efforts of white abolitionists. However discontented with their lot present-day American descendents of slaves may be, they are much better off than they would have been had their ancestors not been brought to America. Are they morally obliged, then, to offer up thanks to the slave traders who brought their ancestors to America?

Thus the demand for an apology for the Atlantic slave trade is a demand that people with no personal responsibility for it apologize to people who have suffered no personal wrong from it. From the point of view of morality, this is a very strange demand.

It isn’t very difficult to discern what lies behind it: money, and lots of it. Nor does it require extraordinary powers of prediction or foresight to know who would get the lion’s share of any such money that was forthcoming.

But even when money is not involved, there are deleterious effects on the recipients of what one might call class-action apologies. Just as those who give them become convinced of their own virtue, so do those who receive them. It is enough that they should be considered victims for them to conclude that they can do no wrong, or at any rate no wrong worth talking about. For what is a personal peccadillo to set beside a great historical wrong?

An apology of this kind, then, or even the supposition that such an apology ought to be forthcoming, exerts a liberating, that is to say loosening, effect upon personal morals. For what can I do wrong to compare with the wrongs that my ancestors suffered at the hands of your ancestors? How dare you even mention it, you hypocrite!

The neat division of populations into victims and perpetrators, oppressed and oppressors, sinners and saints, that public apologies for long-past wrongs both imply and strengthen means that all sense of human tragedy is lost. The situation of the Aborigines in Australia, however, was and is tragic, and would still be tragic even had the settlers behaved from the first in the best possible or morally ideal fashion. (It is not in human nature that they should have done so, least of all in a rough-and-ready and very young frontier society.)

There is no obvious or easy answer to the problem of a Stone Age people who come into close contact with a vastly superior material culture. Neither total assimilation nor preservation in what amounts to a living ethnographic museum is a complete or satisfactory solution; probably such a solution does not exist, which is the tragedy. But a blanket apology and the granting of group economic privileges is hardly the way to cultivate a sense of personal responsibility in a population now decimated by alcoholism and brutalized by family violence. Quite the contrary: psychologically, if not in strict logic, it will allow a man to beat his wife and blame history.

The False Apology Syndrome flourishes wherever there has been a shift in the traditional locus of moral concern. At one time, a man probably felt most morally responsible for his own actions. He was adjudged (and judged himself) good or bad by how he conducted himself toward those in his immediate circle. From its center rippled circles of ever-decreasing moral concern, of which he was also increasingly ignorant. Now, however, it is the other way round. Under the influence of the media of mass communication and the spread of sociological ways of thinking, a man is most likely to judge himself and others by the opinions he and they hold on political, social, and economic questions that are far distant from his immediate circle. A man may be an irresponsible father, but that is more than compensated for by his deep concern about global warming, or foreign policy, or the food situation in Africa.

A false apology is usually accompanied by bogus or insincere guilt, which is often confused with appropriate shame. The German chancellor, Mrs Merkel, spoke in the Knesset recently of her shame at what Germany had done: this was the correct word to use, and precisely the right sentiment for a German who shared no part of the responsibility for what had happened. Pride in the German musical tradition; shame for what Germans had done in the 1930s and ’40s.

Guilt, by its very nature, ought to be connected to responsibility; it ought, moreover, to be in proportion to the wrongdoing that is its occasion. To assume a guilt greater than the responsibility warrants is actually a form of grandiosity or self-aggrandisement. The psychological mechanism seems to be something like this: “I feel very guilty, therefore I must be very important.”

In some case, it is a substitute for importance, or for a loss of importance. Europe (or at least its intellectual class) now feels more than ever responsible for Africa, precisely because its power over it has waned. If Europe cannot feel itself responsible any longer for all that is good and progressive in Africa, such as modern medicine, roads, railways, telephone, etc., it can at least feel responsible for all that is bad in it, such as starvation, civil wars, and so forth. For it is far better, from the point of view of self-esteem, to be responsible for great evil than to be completely or even relatively unimportant. If in the process of false apologizing the participants render Africans themselves inert and inanimate, responsible themselves for nothing, or nothing very much, that is a small price to pay.

False Apology Syndrome — which is not yet found in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of the American Psychiatric Association or the World Health Organization’s International Classification of Diseases, tenth edition — is a therefore rich but poisonous mixture of self-importance, libertinism, condescension, bad faith, loose thinking, and indifference to the effects it has on those who are apologized to.

I am, of course, sorry if you disagree.

.....

Theodore Dalrymple is a physician and author whose works include Our Culture, What’s Left of It: The Mandarins and the Masses (Ivan R. Dee). His real name is Anthony Daniels, and he divides his time between England and France.

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sermonindex

How do you know this to be true?

I think I know my own life.

But God was there - and God is here now.

Using that reasoning then I guess we're all guilty of each others sins... thats cool. I'd rather someone else answer for the things I did before I was saved. Oh wait... Someone did, praise be to God!

And in this you are dead wrong

Yea, only if you take what I said out of context and twist it to mean pride as in "pride of life", which obviously is not what I meant.

C'mon, you're better than that.

Krispy

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sermonindex

Compton... That article was [b]FANTASTIC[/b]! Thank you for posting that.

That should put this issue to rest. But I know some will still want to argue about it, and cherry pick. Thats what we Christians do better than anything else.

Excuse me while I go repent for something that God [b]does[/b] actually hold me accountable for.

Krispy

H
HeartSong

One day a lady in church said something to me that spoke volumes.

She simply said:

"We can not see our own sin."

C
ChrisJD

Hi Krispykrittr,

"Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Are you saying that black people in the south were treated by white Christians according to the Gospel and commands of Jesus Christ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


By true Christians, yes... thats exactly what I am saying. You need to differentiate between Biblical Christians and religious christians."

Krispy, I have made this statement I think at least 4 times now in this thread, asking to consider these things in light of how the Church has been represented in America:

"...again, I don't think we would be asking for forgiveness as individuals, but on behalf of the Christian Church as a whole, [b]as it has been represented in America in the past[/b]."

If you want to redirect the focus of the disussion to consider only how [b]true Christians[/b] [i]as you would define them[/i] have acted towards people that are black in this nation's history, then I don't see how it is fruitfull or possible to proceed. It seems again like blowing smoke over the issue so as to confuse it or make it seem unreasonable: why of course [b]true[/b] Christians have always treated black people according to the Commands of Christ, how else could they have? Right?


Is that right?


After all, true Christians always do what is right. Like you maybe? Or me? We never compromise.


Also,

"By the way... when you say things like [i]"Are you saying that black people in the south were treated by white Christians according to the Gospel and commands of Jesus Christ?"[/i] ... you are speaking in gross generalities. You simply can not do that."


Krispy I thought that I asked you some very specific questions:

[b]Like I said, maybe I'm very mistaken. I didn't know for instance [u]that black slave Christians could attend white Churches[/u] and that they broke bread together in fellowship. After all, the white slave owners that treated them so well must have [u]surely esteemed them better than themselves[/u]. I didn't know that?


Or that they were considered equals in Christ, after all, in Christ there was no slave in America, is that right?[/b]

You had mentioned the Jim Crowe Laws, are you suggesting to me that White Christians treated black people according to the commands of Christ in definance to those laws?


Who exactly was voting for the men that passed the Laws? Not the remnant I guess?


I really must have the wrong picture of the history then Krispy. I did not know that black and white Christians were not segregated. So, it was the Goverments fault? Otherwise they would have been serving God side by side? I didn't know that white Christians of the time considered black people as equals or even esteemed them better than themselves. Only the remnant did maybe?


Like I said, maybe I have the completely wrong picture of the history.

Do I?

C
ChrisJD

Hi everyone,

I came across some refernces to this in looking for things about the topic here. As far as I can tell, this is the text of the resolution from the Library of Congress website. It looks as though it was passed in July?


110th CONGRESS
1st Session


H. RES. 194

Apologizing for the enslavement and racial segregation of African-Americans.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

February 27, 2007


Mr. Cohen (for himself, Mr. Johnson of Georgia, Ms. Jackson-Lee of Texas, Mr. Brady of Pennsylvania, Mr. Wexler, Ms. Kilpatrick, Ms. Woolsey, Mr. Pallone, Ms. Lee, Mr. McGovern, Ms. Schakowsky, Mrs. Maloney of New York, Mr. Conyers, Mr. Moran of Virginia, Mr. Capuano, Mr. Rangel, Mr. Payne, Mr. Jefferson, Mr. Ellison, Mr. Al Green of Texas, Mr. Butterfield, Ms. Watson, Mr. Hinchey, Mr. Cleaver, Ms. Carson, Mr. Israel, Mr. Ackerman, Mr. Davis of Alabama, Mr. Lewis of Georgia, Mr. Abercrombie, Mr. Hare, Mr. Kennedy, Ms. Baldwin, Mr. Hodes, Mr. Filner, Mr. Honda, and Mr. Kucinich) submitted the following resolution; which was referred to the Committee on the Judiciary


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RESOLUTION

Apologizing for the enslavement and racial segregation of African-Americans.

Whereas millions of Africans and their descendants were enslaved in the United States and the 13 American colonies from 1619 through 1865;

Whereas slavery in America resembled no other form of involuntary servitude known in history, as Africans were captured and sold at auction like inanimate objects or animals;

Whereas Africans forced into slavery were brutalized, humiliated, dehumanized, and subjected to the indignity of being stripped of their names and heritage;

Whereas enslaved families were torn apart after having been sold separately from one another;

Whereas the system of slavery and the visceral racism against persons of African descent upon which it depended became entrenched in the Nation’s social fabric;

Whereas slavery was not officially abolished until the passage of the 13th Amendment to the United States Constitution in 1865 after the end of the Civil War, which was fought over the slavery issue;

Whereas after emancipation from 246 years of slavery, African-Americans soon saw the fleeting political, social, and economic gains they made during Reconstruction eviscerated by virulent racism, lynchings, disenfranchisement, Black Codes, and racial segregation laws that imposed a rigid system of officially sanctioned racial segregation in virtually all areas of life;

Whereas the system of de jure racial segregation known as “Jim Crow,” which arose in certain parts of the Nation following the Civil War to create separate and unequal societies for whites and African-Americans, was a direct result of the racism against persons of African descent engendered by slavery;

Whereas the system of Jim Crow laws officially existed into the 1960’s—a century after the official end of slavery in America—until Congress took action to end it, but the vestiges of Jim Crow continue to this day;

Whereas African-Americans continue to suffer from the consequences of slavery and Jim Crow—long after both systems were formally abolished—through enormous damage and loss, both tangible and intangible, including the loss of human dignity and liberty, the frustration of careers and professional lives, and the long-term loss of income and opportunity;

Whereas the story of the enslavement and de jure segregation of African-Americans and the dehumanizing atrocities committed against them should not be purged from or minimized in the telling of American history;

Whereas on July 8, 2003, during a trip to Goree Island, Senegal, a former slave port, President George W. Bush acknowledged slavery’s continuing legacy in American life and the need to confront that legacy when he stated that slavery “was . . . one of the greatest crimes of history . . . The racial bigotry fed by slavery did not end with slavery or with segregation. And many of the issues that still trouble America have roots in the bitter experience of other times. But however long the journey, our destiny is set: liberty and justice for all.”;

Whereas President Bill Clinton also acknowledged the deep-seated problems caused by the continuing legacy of racism against African-Americans that began with slavery when he initiated a national dialogue about race;

Whereas a genuine apology is an important and necessary first step in the process of racial reconciliation;

Whereas an apology for centuries of brutal dehumanization and injustices cannot erase the past, but confession of the wrongs committed can speed racial healing and reconciliation and help Americans confront the ghosts of their past;

Whereas the legislature of the Commonwealth of Virginia has recently taken the lead in adopting a resolution officially expressing appropriate remorse for slavery and other State legislatures are considering similar resolutions; and

Whereas it is important for this country, which legally recognized slavery through its Constitution and its laws, to make a formal apology for slavery and for its successor, Jim Crow, so that it can move forward and seek reconciliation, justice, and harmony for all of its citizens: Now, therefore, be it


Resolved, That the House of Representatives—

(1) acknowledges the fundamental injustice, cruelty, brutality, and inhumanity of slavery and Jim Crow;

(2) apologizes to African-Americans on behalf of the people of the United States, for the wrongs committed against them and their ancestors who suffered under slavery and Jim Crow; and

(3) expresses its commitment to rectify the lingering consequences of the misdeeds committed against African-Americans under slavery and Jim Crow and to stop the occurrence of human rights violations in the future.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This is the source [url=http://thomas.loc.gov/home/gpoxmlc110/hr194_ih.xml]here[/url]


There were also news stories about it that I saw on the interent when I came across it tonight.

C
Compton

"...again, I don't think we would be asking for forgiveness as individuals, but on behalf of the Christian Church as a whole, as it has been represented in America in the past."

H. RES. 194

Apologizing for the enslavement and racial segregation of African-Americans

Brother Chris,

Thanks for digging this up. I am glad to see it, but honestly a little skeptical that a political action like this was regarded as something more then a political action. Perhaps how it was received is not important.

However, reconciliation is such a precious thing that I am willing to suspend my skepticism and listen a little more.

Reconciliation, forgiveness, and trust are deeply compelling pursuits to me. On a personal level, I have seen firsthand many times the healing power of submitting to people who are offended or angry at you in order to build friendship and trust. Yet I am curious if something so personal can be achieved on a political level. (Again, I don't presume to know the outcome you desire, political or otherwise.) I was curious if there are actual examples in history where political apologies provided meaningful reconciliation between people groups.

I came across this website.
[url=http://political-apologies.wlu.ca/about.php]Political Apologies and Reparations[/url]

Maybe you could look through the archives and build a case where such political apologies actually bring reconciliation. My experience is that people who feel victimized might find that lofty apologies without tangible reparations will only deepen their sense of injustice and insult.

Perhaps I am wrong brother. Then again, perhaps the sense and burden of guilt for a whole society, rightfully or wrongfully carried, is more than many European Americans are able to bear.

With much respect,

MC

C
ChrisJD

Mike, thank you for what felt to me to be a gentle and patient response. I appreciate it Mike.

And thank you for the challenge to consider and examine the history of political appologies as you suggested. I think it is a fair challenge.


When I started this thread, I think I was responding to the historic moment of this election and wanting to see us as Christians respond in some way.


It probably was not the best suggestion I could have choosen. I'm sure it wasn't. Surely we do not need the Government to call us to prayer and fasting and repentance. Maybe it came to mind because it has some historic precedence. And that it might give broader attention and might help to get others to take seriously our desire for these things, reconciliation and to acknowledge the wrongs done.

Maybe, that was it at the most basic level, hoping to express to you all, my own desire, that we together would want to seek these things.


As I've thought about what such a day might look like over the last few days, different things have come to mind:


I've thought about 'black' congregations meeting with 'white' congregations and sharing the day in prayer and confession. What a beautifull thing it would be to see us washing each other's feet.


I've thought of a day when we might mourn together over the pain that was caused. Over the wounds that were inflicted. And the loss. Our loss toghether.


I've thought of a day when black and white people could seek God together to heal us and to heal the divisions in our land.


I've thought of a day when people, perhaps older now, would have the opportunity to confess wrongs they themself had done or perhaps held only in their heart, in a safe place among those that loved them.


And I've thought of a day when others in the nation that may still hold these things against the Church could begin to consider letting them go.


Thanks Mike,


Chris


P
PaulWest

I've thought about 'black' congregations meeting with 'white' congregations and sharing the day in prayer and confession. What a beautifull thing it would be to see us washing each other's feet.

You know, dear brother, this already happens among saints who are truly born-again. I am not looking to see entire congregations and demographics liberated, because God does not move upon congregations and demographics but upon individuals, He warms individual hearts and sets the individual captives free and does not brood over collective armies of mercenary soldiers.

America is not the church, brother. Congregations of blacks and whites sequestered within their own steeplehouses are the not the church either. The true church is comprised of Holy Spirit regenerated believers, far and few...but God networks them. When I was involved with prison ministry I met some dear black brothers in Christ and there was absolutely no animositiy or awkwardness for the ancient sins my white ancestors may have imposed upon their ancestors. This is because my black brothers and I are all ingrafted into the same Tree of Life which is Christ, and there are no ancient sins in Christ that still need to be repented of. All things have become new, void of generational curses (which is basically what this thread implies, minus the window dressing) and the the unatoned sins of our fathers; [i]individuals[/i] are set free from bondage, not groups of people within specific ethnicities. The references in Nehemiah and Ezra that propose the apology and public repentance in sackcloth and ashes for Israel's and Judah's sins can be interpreted at the microcosmic level for New Covenant believers in Christ repenting for the corporate sins of the body of Christ (witnessed by Christ's letters of rebuke to the churches in Revelation), but not a secular nation, no matter how much we feel the nation is question is represented by Christiandom.

C
ChrisJD

Brother Paul,


I realise that America is not the Church and that black and white people wash each other's feet. I've seen it. Done it.


But is that the point here brother Paul? That it happens in some places? Or that it doesn't happen in others.


But what would be wrong with meeting together for a day?


I would hope to be able to suggest something so simple without yet more objections.

P
PaulWest

But what would be wrong with meeting together for a day?

There's nothing wrong with this at all; and I totally understand your heart here. It would work for some, instilling a very nice sentiment, but as far as engendering a move of God and effecting the spiritual clime of this nation, I'm not so sure it would bring the results you're looking for.

We're talking about generations removed, many generations. People today are generally disenfranchised from the things that went on in the 18th and early to mid 19th century in this nation. They don't even understand what they're supposed to apologize for, and truthfully, I don't understand either. I'm certainly not compelled by God to do anything like this on a social scale. The apology would therefore be given perfunctorily and accepted from the other side as such, juiceless and with no authority to transform life in a way that impacts the Kingdom of Heaven. Sorry to be so negative here. We are not called to be social reformers by virture of the soul, but to be disciples of Christ and lovers of the Word in Spirit. Jesus brought no social reform, nor did Paul nor did any of the early church fathers to the societies they lived in, but they did something much greater.

C
ChrisJD

We are not called to be social reformers by virture of the techniques of the flesh, but to be disciples of Christ and lovers of the Word.


Prayer(James 5:16), fasting(Acts 14:23), and obedience to the word of God(Matthew 5:23-24).


What techniques of the flesh are you referring to?


EDIT


Paul could you qoute something I've written in this thread so I can tell exactly what I'm responding to? Thank you.

C
ChrisJD

People today are generally disenfranchised from the things that went on in the 18th and early to mid 19th century in this nation.

The following is from the House Resolution that was posted here:

[b]Whereas the system of de jure racial segregation known as “Jim Crow,” which arose in certain parts of the Nation following the Civil War to create separate and unequal societies for whites and African-Americans, was a direct result of the racism against persons of African descent engendered by slavery;

Whereas the system of Jim Crow laws officially existed into the 1960’s—a century after the official end of slavery in America—until Congress took action to end it, but the vestiges of Jim Crow continue to this day;

Whereas African-Americans continue to suffer from the consequences of slavery and Jim Crow—long after both systems were formally abolished—through enormous damage and loss, both tangible and intangible, including the loss of human dignity and liberty, the frustration of careers and professional lives, and the long-term loss of income and opportunity;[/b]

P
PaulWest

What techniques of the flesh are you referring to?

Sorry Chris, I edited "flesh" to "soul" to avoid any confusion. A public apology to advance social reform is what I would call a product of the soul.
Paul could you qoute something I've written in this thread so I can tell exactly what I'm responding to? Thank you.

I was just issuing a general comment on the gist of this thread. Nothing personal at all brother.

C
ChrisJD

Paul, alright, thank you for the clarification.



A public apology to advance social reform is what I would a product of the soul.

Alright, I could see that. But how exactly are we to know what God might do through acts of humility?


EDIT


Also, shouldn't we value the worth of something like that as it is done unto God first?

P
PaulWest

The following is from the House Resolution that was posted here:

Yes, brother, this is a house resolution. But to the regular person living in this nation in 2008, Jim Crow is of a bygone era, and the average person doesn't even know who or what "Jim Crow" was or is. I love colored folk, and I fellowship with them. Never once has this slavery issue and oppression been a factor or an influence upon our friendship. Those that are embittered will remain embittered despite what you or I do or say. They're angry with the government, Chris, with "the man" and basically want hand-outs and sympathy. These people need to get saved, brother, and not more soulish efforts at social reform that begin and end with man.

C
ChrisJD

Yes, brother, this is a house resolution. But to the regular person living in this nation in 2008, Jim Crow is of a bygone era, and the average person doesn't even know who or what "Jim Crow" was or is. I love colored folk, and I fellowship with them. Never once has this slavery issue and oppression been a factor or an influence upon our friendship.

My wife, who is black, thinks that if someone painted their face black today it might start a riot.


I disagree with you brother Paul.

C
ChrisJD

I shared earlier in this thread how my brother-in-law sent me an e-mail yesturday. The e-mail claimed that a young black man that returned some shoes to a store in Kansas City after finding them being sold for a cheaper price elsewhere, noticed a racial slur printed on his reciept.


I didn't believe the story until I followed the link and watched the story on the local news over the internet.

P
PaulWest

Alright, I could see that. But how exactly are we to know what God might do through acts of humility?

There are acts of humility that are birthed in the spirit and there are those that are birthed in the soul. Not all humility is sanctioned by God to bring about transformation on the Spiritual level. If it is God Himself Who is initiating this public apology on behalf of the nation, it is of Spirit; anything less is birthed in the sentiments of man and is from the realm of soul.

W
White_Stone

Hello ChrisJD,

I agree with my sisters. How many men died so the slaves could have their freedom? There was a Civil War fought for that! Is that not enough? Let it be.

As for masters being good to their slaves, what about this man?
----
Matthew 8:6: And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented.
7: And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him.
8: The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.
----
It seems he was concerned enough to seek healing for his servant/slave, that does not seem like the actions of a cruel man. There were good people who owned slaves and treated them as humans. There is another active thread I just read tonight that points out that even if you are in a bad place, it may be exactly the place God wants you to be. Should apologies be sought for that? I think not. "Father, Forgive them, for they know not what they do", is the prescribed path.

And, to me to petition the Gov't for this would be easily perceived as a passive aggressive move. Sort of saying, we are bigger than you are and if you don't accept my proposal that is proof. For me, the less I can have to do with this worldly Gov't the better.

Trying to keep my eyes heavenward, not looking back.

Kind regards,
white stone

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PaulWest

My wife, who is black, thinks that if someone painted their face black today it might start a riot.

Not quite following you here, brother. What does this have to with the things of God? It seems to me you are content remaining on a superficial level of social reform and soul.
I disagree with you brother Paul.

This is okay brother! What do you disagree with me about?

C
ChrisJD

There are acts of humility that are birthed in the spirit and there are those that are birthed in the soul. Not all humility is sactioned by God to bring about transformation on the Spiritual level. If it is God Himself Who is initiating this public apology on behalf of the nation, it is of Spirit; anything less is birthed in the sentiments of man and is from the realm of soul.

[i]Not all humility is sactioned by God to bring about transformation on the Spiritual level.[/i]


And yet we have clear instruction to seek out our brother if he may have something against us.


I find it amazing that even the sugestion of doing that on the possibility that it might improve our relations with each others is met with so much skepticisim, obejction, and complaint.

C
ChrisJD

Not quite following you here, brother. What does this have to with the things of God? It seems to me you are content remaining on a superficial level of social reform and soul.


I was responding to your statement here:



We're talking about generations removed, many generations. People today are generally disenfranchised from the things that went on in the 18th and early to mid 19th century in this nation.


Jeremiah said Woe is me now! for my soul is wearied because of murderers. Do you have some disagreement with people being healed in their souls?


EDIT


I disagreed with you because you said


Yes, brother, this is a house resolution. But to the regular person living in this nation in 2008, Jim Crow is of a bygone era, and the average person doesn't even know who or what "Jim Crow" was or is. I love colored folk, and I fellowship with them. Never once has this slavery issue and oppression been a factor or an influence upon our friendship. Those that are embittered will remain embittered despite what you or I do or say. They're angry with the government, Chris, with "the man" and basically want hand-outs and sympathy. These people need to get saved, brother, and not more soulish efforts at social reform that begin and end with man.


Does that make more sense? Sorry.

P
PaulWest

And yet we have clear instruction to seek out our brother if he may have something against us.

Brother, keeping this in context, does your wife have something against me because of the color of my skin and what it may represent? Do I really need to apologize to her as a white man to black woman? I am truly ignorant to the fact that my black brothers have something against me, and that I owe them an apology for something I didn't do, or anyone in my family did. My ancestors were still living in Italy or Greece most likely during the 18th and 19th century. You're wallowing in a soulish realm, brother, and God doesn't touch this.

Let's rise above social reform - and using the Word of God to support our ideals of social reform - and disect spiritual matters instead. In Christ there is no black, white, male, female. I would rather park here.

C
ChrisJD

Brother, keeping this in context, does your wife have something against me because of the color of my skin and what it may represents? I had no idea my black brothers had something against me.


That's a good question Paul. I think that questions like that could be asked of the millions of individuals in this nation and the responses would probably vary. Maybe they would distrust you because of things done to them in the past, not by you but by others that you remind them of.


I live in the black community and I think that distrust of white people is still a real possiblity.


We do not know what is in people's hearts.

C
ChrisJD

You're wallowing in a soulish realm, brother, and God doesn't touch this.

"I said, LORD, be merciful unto me: heal my soul; for I have sinned against thee."


- Psalm 41:4(KJV)

Brother Paul, thank you for you time in responding to me. I think it will be best if I do not respond further to you.


May God bless you richly.

P
PaulWest

May God bless you richly.

God bless you brother. Thanks for the discussion.

G
ginnyrose

"We can not see our own sin."

If this is true then one cannot repent from sin because he/she would not know what to repent from. It is the Holy Spirit who brings conviction.

ginnyrose

M
mamaluk

Dear brother Chris,I understand very well what the issue is here.. It had not been easy for us either, trying to raise a family some 25 years ago in Texas, just by being Asians!!

Many of those so-called "churches" treated us like lepers at times, and invisible at other times. I remember walking into this huge downtown church in Dallas in front of a caucasian couple, we were "signalled" to step aside for them to pass through.

Just last Sunday in this church (in Dallas) we now attend, where there are only a few black brethren. One of them was told to " sit down and listen" during Sunday school when he tried to ask a question. And he is an adult. Sigh...who are we kidding? (Moderators: if this post is offensive, please delete).

The liberating thing for us who are in Christ now, is, to remember that God is not only a God of love, but He is a God of justice. KNOWing this alone is far better than to look to/for anything else, especially from man.

The unregenerate racists church-goers in this part of the world have not changed, and most likely will not change, they are and will be still sitting there in these church buildings, so what's the point to want anything from them?

As for the true brethren in the Church, they really are not responsible at all, and even if they were/are, have not God forgiven them already? Isn't God's forgiveness alone far better than any apologies. "Pray for those who despitefully use you"...

In my mind,Egypt(world) and Babylon(religious world) are one of the same. We are to separate ourselves from them, while to enjoy where our abode is, in Christ. at the right Hand of the Father.

I hope these verses can lighten our hearts a bit whenever we are dealt with injustice or harm.

2 Timothy 4:14
Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works..
Hebrews 2:2
For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;

Nothing,nothing bypass His justice.

Peace and cheers,
In Christ,
Margaret

R
rbanks

Brother Chris I am praying for you because I think you are missing what Bro. Paul and many others are trying to say to you. I don’t know your motive but I think there is something deeper here than we may realize. I only pray that you don’t let this distance your self from your brothers on here, but you are very adamant about something that we don’t understand why. This thing seems to mean too much to you for some reason.

Just to let you know my sister who is white married a black man and she tells me that in some places she is accepted better than others. Race problems will be here until Jesus returns and reigns over all. However Jesus sets us free to love everybody without prejudice. Prejudice is only broken at the cross and the world hates the cross. One day we know that the church will have a glorified body just like the Lord Jesus. There will be only one kind of people saved by the blood of the lamb. Let’s forget about those things behind us and reach for those things before us.

In closing, Bro. Chris just think about the friends you have on SI and how many on this thread see this thing different than you do and why is that. Does this make you better than us or we better than you? Are you more spiritual and we just don’t get it or what. We are only a few people and you are talking about getting the church in America (whoever that would be) with Congress (Lord only knows what all they believe) president elect (The majority of the people who voted for him don’t even know the man much less the one’s who didn’t) and we are going to come together and apologize to who… to the people that are already dead, to the people who are still holding a grudge and are having it so much better than their ancestors, to people who are still prejudice by people who are prejudice.

Bro. Chris, I believe you really do want to see the healing between the races and it would be so wonderful if it was as simple as just calling everybody together but that will not happen as long as evil, sin, and the devil is in the world.

Brother you have just started this thread and look where it has gone and we are all believing God for a genuine revival. The church is in this world brother but it is not of this world and Jesus is the only one who can heal all the hurts and the only way we can all get together will be in the age to come in the Kingdom of God when everything that is not of God will be in hell.

It is past my bed time but I couldn’t go until after I posted and brother I hope you receive it in the spirit of Love even if you still disagree, and I hope if I am wrong then God will show me. I only want to bring glory to his holy name!

H
HeartSong

"We can not see our own sin."

Quote:

If this is true then one cannot repent from sin because he/she would not know what to repent from. It is the Holy Spirit who brings conviction.

And it is the Holy Spirit that shows us our sin. It is His light shining in the darkness that reveals it - that brings it to light. I can remember when He was working on me - to get me to admit for the first time that I was a sinner - I just couldn't see it. Over and over again I kept saying "but I am just not that bad."

Now as He shines His light on this hidden corner, and that hidden corner . . . oh how sinful are the ways of man!

These horrible things that have happened in the past, and the horrible things that are happening now - we are all responsible to some degree - and any degree, no matter how small, is still sin. Often it is the things that we do not do.

Mostly my heart is burdened because we have done these things against God. Our precious redeemer, a lamb without spot or blemish - who died on our behalf, that we may come unto the Father . . . how can we act as if we have done anything good in these matters?

The blood of these people that have murdered innocent children of God - their seed has been carried down to me - part of what they are is mixed in with who I am. It is this that I bring before the Lord to confess and ask for His mercy and cleansing.

We must pray that God reveal this truth unto our hearts - that we may see our sin, and repent.

S
sermonindex

Chris... had to time to think longer on this. I just want you to know that I think your motivation is noble. You want to see racial harmony in America. I think we all do.

I'm not disagreeing with your motives... I'm disagreeing with your theology.

When I get to heaven and stand before the throne... God will not say to me "Your grandfather ran moonshine in the 1950's... why should I let you into my heaven?"

He will not say "In 1887 your great-great grandfather shot and killed a man because they couldnt agree on the price of a horse... why should I let you into my heaven?"

He will not inquire of me about your sins, Chris. He will not inquire of me about Ginny's sins.

He will inquire about MY sins. And my answer will be "I am guilty as charged." But my sins are covered by the blood of the Lamb... I am forgiven and pardoned.

I am not responsible for what happened in this country 400 years ago, 200 years ago... or 140 years ago. I am responsible for NOW.

I'll say it again, Chris... for the church to bend a knee and apologize to man for something that God is not holding the "church of right now" accountable for is to put man above God.

I'm like Paul... I know many many black people. I coach with them, I see them on job sites that I'm involved with, I coach black kids in football, etc etc. NEVER has the issue of slavery or Jim Crowe come up. It's not an issue. I love them. As far as I know, they love me. It's no different than my relationships with white people.

I served with them in the military, and on a couple of occasions during that time in my life I entrusted my life to them... and they to me.

My neice married a black guy... he's actually from Ethiopia. I love the guy! He's a beautiful human being.

Thing is, I dont notice skin color until someone comes along and tells me I have to apologize to them for something I had nothing to do with.

Chris... as I said, I love you... but your theologically incorrect on this, and you're espousing revisionist history.

The [b]true Church[/b] is what brought an end to slavery! What do we have to apologize for??

I just wish everyone would get over it. Black AND white. We'll never move forward until we do. Don't pretend it didn't happen, but at the same time dont let it hamstring you.

Krispy

S
sermonindex

These horrible things that have happened in the past... we are all responsible to some degree

This is just silly.

NO WE ARE NOT! WE WERE NOT HERE!

Krispy

B
BenBrockway

What I would like to know is when America will move foward? I don't how many times in my 33 years of living in this temporary body that I have attended a prayer gathering, heard a president speak on, or seen the majority of America come together on the repenting for slavery and racial injustice.
Again, I ask: When will we move forward? When can there be unity instead of a constant reminder of sin's past?

Let me give a simplistic scenerio (and I am by no means comparing the action and cruelty of slavery to this particular action - it is only the idea that I am drawing from):

Let's say I punched Billy Joe Bob (fictional character) out of frustration yesterday and realized today that what I did was horribly wrong and I came to him and apologized and asked for forgiveness.

#1 Should Billy Joe Bob (now 30 years later since the incident of action occured) still constantly remind me of how I wronged him, even though he forgave me 30 years ago?

#2 If I were truly repentant for my action towards Billy Joe Bob, why should I, and why do I have to spend the next 30 years constantly being reminded of what I did, and also constantly seeking his forgiveness?

What a horrible way to live. There is no life in that - neither for Billy Joe Bob, or myself!

Why must we do the same with the slavery issue? I have a number of black friends. I love them dearly. They too wonder when we will move forward as America. They too don't want to constantly be reminded of their ancestor's past by America continually bringing it up and seeking repentance over and over and over. They want to live free, not in the bondage of memories past.

If most black Americans can wipe the slate clean, why can't we as white people?

Yes, what some of our ancestor's did was wrong and grotesque, but let's move on!

R
rbanks

Sister heartsong, I have already gone to God and repented of all my sins and am crucified with Christ. I do not need anybody to deliver me from a generational curse; the cross of Christ is the only deliverance. I must not bring my Lord to an open shame. I must walk in the light in continual fellowship and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses me from all sin.

I will not ask man to do something only God can do. I will not be condemned by other people’s emotions. When I confess my sins then I believe he forgives and when I go to the cross, I put off the old man and put on the new man. I will not go on a merry go round with the old man. I will not continually ask God to do something he has already done as though I don’t believe he has really done it. Sister if you believe that you have not repented and gone to the cross then I hope you will, for every one must answer for their own sins and not to be busy bodies in other people’s matters.

The death at the cross is the only way to deal with the merry-go-round of emotions that people just can’t seem to get rid of. When I reckoned myself to be dead with Christ on the cross I am through with my past life and all the people who did me wrong or hurt me can’t do me wrong or hurt me anymore because I have died to my self, my past, and I must stay dead in my future with Christ in me the hope of glory. I forget those things that are behind me and I am reaching for those things that are before me. I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

B
BenBrockway


BenBrockway wrote:
What I would like to know is when America will move foward? I don't how many times in my 33 years of living in this temporary body that I have attended a prayer gathering, heard a president speak on, or seen the majority of America come together on the repenting for slavery and racial injustice.
Again, I ask: When will we move forward? When can there be unity instead of a constant reminder of sin's past?

Let me give a simplistic scenerio (and I am by no means comparing the action and cruelty of slavery to this particular action - it is only the idea that I am drawing from):

Let's say I punched Billy Joe Bob (fictional character) out of frustration yesterday and realized today that what I did was horribly wrong and I came to him and apologized and asked for forgiveness.

#1 Should Billy Joe Bob (now 30 years later since the incident of action occured) still constantly remind me of how I wronged him, even though he forgave me 30 years ago?

#2 If I were truly repentant for my action towards Billy Joe Bob, why should I, and why do I have to spend the next 30 years constantly being reminded of what I did, and also constantly seeking his forgiveness?

What a horrible way to live. There is no life in that - neither for Billy Joe Bob, or myself!

Why must we do the same with the slavery issue? I have a number of black friends. I love them dearly. They too wonder when we will move forward as America. They too don't want to constantly be reminded of their ancestor's past by America continually bringing it up and seeking repentance over and over and over. They want to live free, not in the bondage of memories past.

If most black Americans can wipe the slate clean, why can't we as white people?

Yes, what some of our ancestor's did was wrong and grotesque, but let's move on!


My wife brought up another good point...

Why must Ben Jr., Ben I, Ben II, Ben III, and Ben IV be reminded of what I did to Billy Joe Bob. Why must they repent to Billy Joe Bob, Billy Joe Bob Jr., I, II, III, and IV?

Jesus only had to die once for our sins, so why do we keep nailing Him back up on the cross over stuff like this? He has forgiven America's past for it's iniquity, most of our dear black American's have, so why can't we move beyond the drudging up of sin's past now forgiven?


:-( :-o

S
sermonindex

Billy Joe Bob (fictional character)

Uhm... not so fictional... thats my brother. We call him Bubba. ;-)

Krispy

S
sermonindex

Sister heartsong, I have already gone to God and repented of all my sins and am crucified with Christ. I do not need anybody to deliver me from a generational curse; the cross of Christ is the only deliverance. I must not bring my Lord to an open shame. I must walk in the light in continual fellowship and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses me from all sin.

I will not ask man to do something only God can do. I will not be condemned by other people’s emotions. When I confess my sins then I believe he forgives and when I go to the cross, I put off the old man and put on the new man. I will not go on a merry go round with the old man. I will not continually ask God to do something he has already done as though I don’t believe he has really done it. Sister if you believe that you have not repented and gone to the cross then I hope you will, for every one must answer for their own sins and not to be busy bodies in other people’s matters.

The death at the cross is the only way to deal with the merry-go-round of emotions that people just can’t seem to get rid of. When I reckoned myself to be dead with Christ on the cross I am through with my past life and all the people who did me wrong or hurt me can’t do me wrong or hurt me anymore because I have died to my self, my past, and I must stay dead in my future with Christ in me the hope of glory. I forget those things that are behind me and I am reaching for those things that are before me. I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

[b]Amen![/b]

Krispy

C
ChrisJD

Hi Krispykrittr,

You said,


When I get to heaven and stand before the throne... God will not say to me "Your grandfather ran moonshine in the 1950's... why should I let you into my heaven?"


I have said this now perhaps 5 times in this thread to you and others and I continue to have to say it. I suggested to you, that if you or others [b]continue to recast what I have suggested to do here as taking personal responsibility for something that you did not do[/b], that you then seem to be doing that to purposely make this request seem unreasonable to others and to dismiss it.


I am going to repeat this here again. If you respond again to me, I would like to ask that you please respond to this and not something else which I did not ask anyone to consider. Thank you for considering this request.


Here is what I suggested:


"...again, I don't think we would be asking for forgiveness as individuals, but on behalf of the Christian Church as a whole,[b][color=000000]as it has been represented in America in the past[/color][/b]."


I'm disagreeing with your theology.


What theology is that Krispy?


Did I say that any of you [u][b]had[/u][/b] to do this, or that it was [u][i]owed[/u][/i] to anyone? Did I suggest that somewhere? If so, could you repeat it here so that I could see it? Thank you.


But what I did suggest as far as I can remember, was this:

[b]Because the sins of forced slavery and racial hatred were committed in a country like ours, which has had the Bible and the Gospel, and a visible Christian Church, so mingled within the different aspects of it's society, because these horrible evils were comitted among a people like that, over hundreds of years, I think it would be entirely appropriate for us, for Christians, and especially white Christians living in America, if we, being willing today to publicly confess and acknowledge these evils done against those who were black, perhaps many also themselves Christians, if we being willing to express with one voice and one heart our deep sorrow and regret that such could have ever happened in a land such as ours, and wanting to express that to those our brothers and sisters who may yet be alive today themselves having experienced those things and living with a present memory of them, and to not only them but to all other citizens of this country, who for whatever reason may be biased against the testimony of the Christian Church or hold against us as a grievance these sins of the past both distant and not so long ago, that taking such an opportunity as is now, I think it would be entirely appropriate for us to ask our Government officials to call upon us and others willing, as a nation, to humble ourselves in acknowledgement of these things, and in repentence for them, and in seeking God to heal our land and bring true harmony and peace and equity between the peoples of this land and a thourough healing of heart and forgiveness of all grievances and wrongs and a restoration of trust between them.[/b]

No, no one that did not feel remorse or sorrow that these things happened was invited to participate. No one is being charged here with personal guilt for the actions of the past.

If none of those things apply to you, or you do not feel remorse or sorrow that it happened, or grief that the Church in America has been represented the way it has, then no, why would you or anyone else participate Krispy?


Chris... as I said, I love you... but your theologically incorrect on this, and you're espousing revisionist history.

Before you said that I was making broad generalisations about the Church. You also suggested that that I am stereotyping all southerners. And now you say I'm espousing revisionist history.


[b]I think it would be fair for you at this point to provide qoutations in regards to these specific accusations so that I can respond to them[/b]. Could you do that please? Thank you Krispy.

When you suggested these things in the responses before, I asked you some specific questions. I would like to ask them again if I could please:


I asked you if black people have been treated according to the Gospel and Commands of Jesus Christ by white southern Christians and others in this country for the past 400 years. A portion of my response to you before is repeated below:


[b]Like I said, maybe I'm very mistaken. I didn't know for instance that black slave Christians could attend white Churches and that they broke bread together in fellowship. After all, the white slave owners that treated them so well must have surely esteemed them better than themselves. I didn't know that?


Or that they were considered equals in Christ, after all, in Christ there was no slave in America, is that right?

You had mentioned the Jim Crowe Laws, are you suggesting to me that White Christians treated black people according to the commands of Christ in definance to those laws?


Who exactly was voting for the men that passed the Laws? Not the remnant I guess?


I really must have the wrong picture of the history then Krispy. I did not know that black and white Christians were not segregated. So, it was the Goverments fault? Otherwise they would have been serving God side by side? I didn't know that white Christians of the time considered black people as equals or even esteemed them better than themselves. Only the remnant did maybe?


Like I said, maybe I have the completely wrong picture of the history.[/b]


Thank you very much for your time and may God bless you,


Chris

S
sermonindex

Chris... you're now entering into contention for the sake of contention.

I said what I said. And asking the Body of Christ to apologize for how it has been "represented" in the past is absurd. I dont even know what that means, to be truthful.

The true Body of Christ did NOT sit back on it's laurels and do nothing while slavery existed. But I refuse to go back over history with you.

This is becoming a pointless argument. I dont have time for this... No one is buying into your reasoning so now you're accusing me of running you around in circles.

I wish you success in whatever it is you're trying to accomplish with this thread, my brother. I look forward to discussing something different with you on some other thread where we can have less contention between us.

Krispy

C
ChrisJD

Hi BenBrockway,


"What I would like to know is when America will move foward? I don't how many times in my 33 years of living in this temporary body that I have attended a prayer gathering, heard a president speak on, or seen the majority of America come together on the repenting for slavery and racial injustice."

I was wondering about the statement that you made above and if I could ask you to clarify it? Did you mean that you have seen these things many times?


The reason why I ask is, as far as I know or can immediately recall, I have not seen them ever?

It was pretty surprising to me that the 110th Congress had recently passed(as far as I can tell it was in July) a resolution to officially applogise for slavery and racial segregation [url=http://thomas.loc.gov/home/gpoxmlc110/hr194_ih.xml]H. RES. 194[/url]

So, I hope it is alright if I ask you to clarify what you meant there?

Also, about this,

"When can there be unity instead of a constant reminder of sin's past?"

I think I can appreciate what you are asking. I also think that there is example in the Bible of being called to remember the sins of the past and to learn from them. Consider Paul's admonition in 1 Co 10:11 for example. Or some of the Psalms, for instance Psalm 106 and 78.


In Psalm 106 it is written:


"And they served their idols: which were a snare unto them. Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils, And shed innocent blood, [i]even[/i] the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood."

- Psalm 106:36-38(KJV)


Wish you well and thank you for your time,

Chris

W
White_Stone

If no slaves were brought here from their native land (many of which were sold into slavery by members of their own race) they would never have been exposed to the Word of God and would have died in their sins.

Are any of the Black Organizers suggesting the different tribes need to apologize to each other? Where should the guilt end? Why not focus on the good that those evil actions was turned into by our All Powerful God? Countless souls have been saved as a result.

Praise Jesus.

Romans 8:28

And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.

Kind regards,
white stone

H
HeartSong

"And they served their idols: which were a snare unto them. Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils, And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood."
- Psalm 106:36-38(KJV)

The Lord had this verse before me for months. It brings much sorrow upon the heart to realize that we are doing these things to our own children - that our sin is killing them. It all looks fine on the surface, as we go about our daily business - but it is what is happening below the surface that is terrifying. The shredding of the soul, the rotting of the spirit - all the potential goodness melting into darkness. Yes, the land is polluted with blood, and we are responsible for the spilling of that blood.

rbanks and Krispy, I hear your words, but I must go by what the Lord has put upon my heart - for He is showing me His heart in these things, and He grieves for the loss of His children - that we would murder one another in thought, word and deed is a heaviness that can barely be born.

C
ChrisJD

Dear Krispykrittr,


Chris... you're now entering into contention for the sake of contention.


Please do not think this. I do not think that I'm doing this anyway. If I am I should stop, you're right.


But you have made several accusations against me and I'm asking you to show me the words I have written here which give you reason to say those things.


I do think this is important because I think that you and others have recharacterised what I asked us to consider doing.


No one seems to be responding to what I actually asked us to consider and are continuing to suggest that I've asked us to appologise as being guilty for things that we did not do, even after I have many times said emphaticaly otherwise.



And asking the Body of Christ to apologize for how it has been "represented" in the past is absurd. I dont even know what that means, to be truthful.


So why don't we talk about that instead of something that I have not asked us to do and you and others have made it clear you do not want to do?

I wish you well and thank you for your kind sentiments,


Chris

G
GodsFire

Chris JD and others,

I am a Irish/ French/ Portugese (dads side), my grand father is a direct immigrant of Dublin. My mom is African american. Where does that leave me?

I consider myself African American because I live inside of mid-dark brown skin, I also have most of the traits of what is considered to be African American. I have been classified that way, and I have grown up with the struggle.

My only and deepest struggle now is to help get the body of believers, if that is what they are gong to be, to begin to advance themselves further in the love of Christ so that they can be forgiven if needed and learn to comfortably interact with the all the Children of God.

What I am learning indepthly is that many aren't converted and convicted to step outside of the degradation and shame they and their ancestors have placed upon the mentalities and lives of africans, in which we now call americans.

OooHHH but when the holy spirit gets to such a core, when he touches a man for real, it is in that instance, he embraces his brothe and his sister no matter what the color with and un-ending and very endearing love.

Do I see that much NO, been around the entire world, even in missionary camps, nd this is probably one of the more tolerating and loving environments to bless God in....

Many on this website need and exact overhaul from God on this issue of race, racial divide, and racial issues such as this conversation.

It only clarifies to me what the Holy Spirit has uttered in my heart only after a few days here. We are wasting precious time in practically all of these debates because they bring NO Glory to God nor or they edifying to Anyone here.

While one intends to make or introduce a valid point, all of the others tend to do anything, say practically anything, and try to counteract in anyway they can to lambast to other individual somehow. Love here? Even if I knew many of you, I would say what you have to say is fruitless.

Fruitless, fruitless, and your words are filled with tongue lashing ill-fire....

ChrisJD, I have had to bridge many gaps in my life between other races even okinawans and japanese, they have their differences, and we have had to help bring them together.

Only the spirit of God helps us and allows us when we truly solicit God's help in such "touchy" matters.
I understand full well what you are saying, but many have "there own" opinion, and not God's voiced mandate on this issue else this conversation would have either been cutndry or not even started.


May God help our souls in another "dead and fruitless conversation" regardless of how many Hooorays you give each other.....you can call it constructive if you like, but it results in fruitlessness. If what i am saying is harsh, is because it is, and if no one likes me, my rebuke or my response period. SO What!!!!!!!!!!!

Let us grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and do away with such childishness.... Brethren, can't you see that this is why we fail, we continue to fail, oh what lifelessness we have......

Please seek in the depthness of your own heart so that God can continue to cut away at this miserable part of our lives.....

With Love,

The fire

We act just like Coulter, Limbaugh, and hannity, to one another....

B
BenBrockway


ChrisJD wrote:
Hi BenBrockway,


"What I would like to know is when America will move foward? I don't how many times in my 33 years of living in this temporary body that I have attended a prayer gathering, heard a president speak on, or seen the majority of America come together on the repenting for slavery and racial injustice."

I was wondering about the statement that you made above and if I could ask you to clarify it? Did you mean that you have seen these things many times?

Chris, I have actually participated with many churches on the repentance for slavery and racial divide issue. I've even participated in times when the American church came together in one accord and expressed shame and sought repentance for these issues.

This is why I asked the question: "When will America move forward?"


The reason why I ask is, as far as I know or can immediately recall, I have not seen them ever?

It was pretty surprising to me that the 110th Congress had recently passed(as far as I can tell it was in July) a resolution to officially applogise for slavery and racial segregation [url=http://thomas.loc.gov/home/gpoxmlc110/hr194_ih.xml]H. RES. 194[/url]

So, I hope it is alright if I ask you to clarify what you meant there?

Also, about this,

"When can there be unity instead of a constant reminder of sin's past?"

I think I can appreciate what you are asking. I also think that there is example in the Bible of being called to remember the sins of the past and to learn from them. Consider Paul's admonition in 1 Co 10:11 for example. Or some of the Psalms, for instance Psalm 106 and 78.


In Psalm 106 it is written:


"And they served their idols: which were a snare unto them. Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils, And shed innocent blood, [i]even[/i] the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood."

- Psalm 106:36-38(KJV)

Chris,

This was also before Christ's death on the cross. We can now be set free. We don't need to constantly bare the burden of our iniquity as white Americans, or as Christians. We've repented. It happened many years ago. Let's move on.



Wish you well and thank you for your time,

Chris

C
ChrisJD

Hi BenBrokway, thank you for your response.



Chris, I have actually participated with many churches on the repentance for slavery and racial divide issue. I've even participated in times when the American church came together in one accord and expressed shame and sought repentance for these issues.

Ben, could you share some of the examples of what you have described? For instance when and where this took place and who was involved?

"I've even participated in times when the American church came together in one accord and expressed shame and sought repentance for these issues."

I would really be interested in your recollection of this event. I had asked about this earlier in the thread, if it had ever happened and did not see a response. So that would be great if you could tell us more about it. Thanks!


I think it would be helpful to know these things, especially for us who may be completely ignorant that this has ever happened.

Also,

"This was also before Christ's death on the cross. We can now be set free. We don't need to constantly bare the burden of our iniquity as white Americans, or as Christians. We've repented. It happened many years ago. Let's move on."

Ben, I don't think myself or anyone else has suggested that we have to bear the burden for these things but rather to be able to express our sorrow and regret for the way Christianity has been represented in the past. You said here that this has happened and that sounds really great!


I don't think the passages that we looked at are calling us to bear the burden of the sins of the past. But to remember them and learn from them.


On [b]that[/b] note, I thought I would share an interesting qoutation that I came across last night. While I was out, I had the idea to stop in a bookstore and see if there were any titles on this subject, thanks mostly to Krispy and his refrerences to differnt people in this thread(I did see a book about the man that you mentioned Krispy, was it Brown?). Anyway, I came across a book about a quaker named John Woolman, it was titled The Apostle of Abolition.


In opening it and looking at the pages I fixed on this qoute, which I have found on the internet this morning,


[b]When proceedings have been from that wisdom which is from beneath and inequitable gain hath been gathered by a man and left as a gift to his children who entangled by the same worldly spirit have not attained to that clearness of light in which the channels of righteousness are opened and justice done to those who remain silent under injuries it hath under humbling exercise of mind appeared to rue that the sins of the fathers are embraced by the children and become their sins and thus in the days of tribulation the iniquities of the fathers are visited upon these children who take hold of the unrighteousness of their fathers and live in that spirit in which those iniquities were committed To this agreeth the prophecy of Moses concerning a rebellious people They that are left of you shall pine away in their iniquity in your enemies lands and also in the iniquities of their fathers shall they pine away with them Lev xxvi 39 Our blessed Lord in beholding the hardness of heart in that generation and feeling in himself that they lived in the same spirit in which the prophets had been persecuted unto death signified that the blood of all the prophets which was shed from the foundation of the world should be required of that generation from the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias which perished between the altar and the temple Luke xi 50 51[/b]


http://books.google.com/books?id=zMEEAAAAYAAJ&lpg=PA283&ots=RpOzLqZin4&dq=%22John%20Woolman%22%20%22Moses%22%20%22iniquity%22&pg=PA283&ci=58,401,923,862&source=bookclip"


A Journal of the Life, Gospel Labors, and Christian Experiences of that Faithful Minister of Jesus Christ John Woolman, to which are Added His Last Epistle and Other Writings By John Woolman



"When will America move forward?"

I think we are :-)


EDIT thought it would be appropriate to add a refrence to this again [url=http://thomas.loc.gov/home/gpoxmlc110/hr194_ih.xml]H.Res.194[/url]

G
ginnyrose

One can belabor the lack of appropriate behaviors of others which is something one cannot not control. So I would ask you to do something to rectify a problem: ask Jesus what he would do in this situation? What guidance would the New Testament give you in dealing with discrimination?

ginnyrose

C
ChrisJD

Dear friends,


I came across a news story this afternoon and I want to share a link to it with you all here in this discussion. I cannot of course say if the things reported here are completely accurate or not; they are very very bad.


I'm posting here a brief qoute from the article along with the title:

[b]Election spurs 'hundreds' of race threats, crimes[/b]

"...Incidents around the country referring to President-elect Barack Obama are dampening the postelection glow of racial progress and harmony, highlighting the stubborn racism that remains in America..."


[url=http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081115/ap_on_re_us/obama_racial]Full story...[/url]


[b][color=660000]Blessed [i]are[/i] the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. [/color][/b]

H
HeartSong

"It's shaking the foundations on which the country has existed for centuries."

W
White_Stone

"It's shaking the foundations on which the country has existed for centuries."

My contention is that this Country does not have the right foundation. Jesus Christ is the Rock of my foundation.

Chris,
Those that are doing bad things would do them regardless of the outcome of the election.
When bad things happen - Praise the Lord
When good things happen - Praise the Lord
It is all His.

Nothing happens without God. If he has the very hairs of our heads numbered, how much more do you think that he has His creation in His eye.

Follow Jesus, none of this will matter shortly.

Isn't it marvelous to have a place like this where we can come together in fellowship. Let us not focus on the ugly things but on the joy available to those who love Him. Nothing can separate us from the love of God but our willful ways can bring grief. I beg you to use your will to seek His and do not allow troubling reports in the newspaper take your joy from you.

I will pray for you and your family.
white stone

P.S. pray for all on this forum and the persecuted Saints worldwide

H
HeartSong

It is becoming increasingly apparent to me that there is a huge rift running through the heart of this country - a San Andreas fault of sorts.

While I am hearing that there is no problem, and that all is well - a sort of peace, peace proclamation - I am at the same time getting a sense of huge gaping wounds - wounds that are hidden and festering.

While we are to rest in the Lord, this is an impossibility if there are things that we have swept under the rug - for this would be sin that has been seen, but not confessed.

Chris has a valid concern in what he is bringing forth. We can either judge ourselves in this matter or wait for the Lord to bring judgment upon us.

Personally, I prefer judge myself.

W
White_Stone

"We can either judge ourselves in this matter or wait for the Lord to bring judgment upon us."

It seems as if you are sentencing us rather than waiting for His judgment. If I failed to help any other person simply because of the color of their skin, I would admit guilt. I can not be 'guilted' into a false confession/apology. (Not that I feel Chris tried that, at all.)

The "hidden and festering wounds" have been constantly picked at and never allowed to heal by leaders of the people - for their own advancement. I believe the people of color in this Country who have Jesus in their hearts have truly been healed. Those following a false Jesus can not forgive for they have no forgiveness. Likewise, those that follow the evil one have no forgiveness. Let those people judge themselves. I am always ready to be friends and to 'make nice.' I can not accept blame for anyone's fault but my own and I have plenty of those, thank you.

Kind regards,
white stone

H
HeartSong

There is a blanket of darkness that has fallen upon the land.

And it is sweeping the whole earth.

G
GodsFire

This blanket that you refer to heartsong is and will be cold and riveting....

This is why I will not refer myself as a proud American any longer, I ceased to do that a very long time ago, but I will refer to myself as a Soldier in a very fierce battle, I can feel it, I can sense it, I have and still struggle with issues of war, and there is much battle ahead of all of us, IN REALITY (Watchman Nee), so I am determined to fashion my life around being a Soidier in the very Army of the living God.

Remeber what Paul told Timotheos, He said that a soldier that warreth does not entangle himself in the affairs of ths life..... read this 10-20 times each day, it will really begin to stick!

Let us truly give ourselves to prayer and dedication to this cause....

in Christ' love I pray,

The Fire

C
crsschk

Remeber what Paul told Timotheos, He said that a soldier that warreth does not entangle himself in the affairs of ths life..... read this 10-20 times each day, it will really begin to stick!

Agreed, however ...

One of the greatest problems that has plagued this forum over the years is to inject a repetitive counter argument, one that ends up disproving your (whomever) point.


Many on this website need and exact overhaul from God on this issue of race, racial divide, and racial issues such as this conversation.

It only clarifies to me what the Holy Spirit has uttered in my heart only after a few days here. We are wasting precious time in practically all of these debates because they bring NO Glory to God nor or they edifying to Anyone here.

While one intends to make or introduce a valid point, all of the others tend to do anything, say practically anything, and try to counteract in anyway they can to lambast to other individual somehow. Love here? Even if I knew many of you, I would say what you have to say is fruitless.

Fruitless, fruitless, and your words are filled with tongue lashing ill-fire....

ChrisJD, I have had to bridge many gaps in my life between other races even okinawans and japanese, they have their differences, and we have had to help bring them together.

Only the spirit of God helps us and allows us when we truly solicit God's help in such "touchy" matters.
I understand full well what you are saying, but many have "there own" opinion, and not God's voiced mandate on this issue else this conversation would have either been cutndry or not even started.


May God help our souls in another "dead and fruitless conversation" regardless of how many Hooorays you give each other.....you can call it constructive if you like, but it results in fruitlessness. If what i am saying is harsh, is because it is, and if no one likes me, my rebuke or my response period. SO What!!!!!!!!!!!

Let us grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and do away with such childishness.... Brethren, can't you see that this is why we fail, we continue to fail, oh what lifelessness we have......

Please seek in the depthness of your own heart so that God can continue to cut away at this miserable part of our lives.....

With Love,

The fire

We act just like Coulter, Limbaugh, and hannity, to one another....

Do you not recognize brother that you are doing the exact same thing that you are accusing others of? [i]You[/i] brought these things up, you continue to bring up these names, here and elsewhere, you continue to press the issue by bringing it up so that it can be again torn down.

It is [i]making an issue[/i], creating one. If these things are in your opinion dead and fruitless, then why add to them? If you are indeed not entangled in the affairs of this life than what are you doing ... getting entangled in them?

I am just asking that you would apply the same duality to yourself. [i]This site[/i] is multifaceted and I do take a measure of umbrage at the misconceptions, there is no need to defend the resources, they are their own witness. This [i]forum[/i] has seen these same repetitive divisions by the amount of fuel that is fed into them. It is not just you but others ...

It is difficult to speak to this because it also echoes some of your own concerns, I share them. We attempted and do continue to discourage the matter of politics and yet ... It just keeps on coming, even yourself - Let's not talk about politics by talking about not talking about politics and then adding it a parting shot or two? Can you see what I am getting at?

It's circular. It's even more difficult to inject my own opinion here but it is also long observation over many years that has seen this go on and on and on. A lack of restraint, a reactionary [i]must[/i] that continues the very thing we might wish to see go silent. The only way I have seen some matters go dormant is when they are ignored, not responded to, left without a reply.

Case in point here with this posting. I have a comment and an opinion to it's proposal\\proposition but will not give it. I also have come to know many of these dear saints over the years. We vary. We falter. We get excited. We return to sober mindedness. We recant (Not as frequently as I could wish)...

[i]Some are high-minded. Some are self-righteous. Some are haughty and [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=10733&forum=34&post_id=&refresh=Go]proud[/url]. Some are busybodies and gossips, meddlers in matters that they ought not, need not, interfere. Some insinuate. Others presume. Some make things personal when they are not. Others are too personal, too emotional to consider, listen or take any [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=18390&forum=34&post_id=&refresh=Go]correction[/url]. Some find themselves as those that believe they are helps to disputes but fail to recognize that they themselves are more the cause and often the perpetrators of inflaming even more unrest and strife. Some are overbearing and dominate the discussions, giving little room for others. All these things and more could be addressed. Some of them, all of them, may find traits, aspects at any given time in each one of us. Some give evidence in abundance of them by their behavior and conduct.
[/i]

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=14144&forum=13&start=10&viewmode=flat&order=1] Addendum[/url]

Perception. Presumptions.

C
ChrisJD

Hi again White_Stone,

Thank you for the encouragement to be confident in God. I hope that it did not seem as though I wanted to sound alarming or to suggest fear for these things; God forbid!


I did think the news story was related to the discussion though.

I remember listening to a message about the book of Acts. In Acts chapter 8, Samaria had recieved the Gospel, but up untill then they had not recieved the baptisim of the Holy Spirit, and that is somewhat strange isn't it? We would wonder why?


As I understand it, the Jews of the time regarded Samaritans as half-breeds. The Samaritan woman at the well said that the Jews had no dealings with them. This would make the Lord Jesus's parable which we call the "Good Samaritan" perhaps all the more striking in the ears of those that heard it. Especially to someone who had asked him about the commandment to love our neighbor, and how far then did that commandment extend.

And so it was to them, these Samaritans, that John and Peter had to come, to lay their hands upon them, before the Holy Spirit was given.


However far our own obligations may extend, may the Lord help us to be all that we can.

[b][color=660000]Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. [/color][/b]

C
crsschk

And now I see a further clarification needs to be stated, a correction ... Will recant and give my opinion after all seeing that I felt it necessary to address all this.

I [i]get[/i] what Chris was after, I just find it unnecessary. Maybe there is a principle that could be derived from ...

[i] Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.[/i] Joh 21:22

C
ChrisJD

Dear mike,


[i]...I just find it unnecessary.[/i]

I understand brother. But I do think that there is a call for followers of Christ to go beyond what is nescessary, or what may be our obligation, you know?


For instance, we may be compelled to carry someones burden for a mile, but of our own carry it two?


It seems to me also, that we can follow the Lord Jesus, in seeking to be reconciled to those that hold us as enemies, before they ever seek it themselves.


I know that we will say, that this is done through the Gospel, but the Gospel also has much history now associated with it in this country. I think we can at least consider ways to overcome that, where that history may present an obstacle to someonelse.


I suggested one way. Maybe there are ones that would be better. I don't know.


Wish you all well,


Chris

G
GodsFire

Mr moderator,

there is no one here that has done anything opposite of what you have accused me of....

I do not like or care for the word games that are played here, and I have found quickly that this is the problem with this site,

Do you realize that I have gotten over 15 pm's in only what, a week or so I have been here of how many Disapprove of the narrow-mindedness and self -righteousness that exist here at this site that unprecendently displays and offers some of the most heavenly and life changing sermons in mankinds history?

No, I should think not, I was sent here to be a beacon of God's voice, but you still refuse to listen, it is only the injection of the MODERATORS views and laws that exist loudly.

I say again to us all, Repent, we must change from the Mods to the newest of members....

I have not come in pride, sir, and I am sorry that many posts that I have read seems to also go that same route, if someone expresses something tha someone doesn't agree with, there is a seriously distateful response that is given...

I am just attempting to understand what is before me......
Yes there are good conversations, but many of them just like your response to ChrisJD and I , they are responses of selfishness that attempts to shut others down, and yes it is done in a slick manner, but none the less, you are the MOD.

Mr Moderator, I do not wish to argue with you on this in a public forum, but this is what needs to stop! And as long as you see no need for it to stop, then I have no more to utter.


And again I say that is in Christ love I have spoken and come as a friend

C
crsschk

No, I should think not, I was sent here to be a beacon of God's voice, but you still refuse to listen, it is only the injection of the MODERATORS views and laws that exist loudly.

"[i]It is difficult to speak to this because it also echoes some of your own concerns, I share them.[/i]"


It's not an accusation, it's a challenge to see if the mote is not in your own eye.

Do you realize that I have gotten over 15 pm's in only what, a week or so I have been here of how many Disapprove of the narrow-mindedness and self -righteousness that exist here at this site that unprecendently displays and offers some of the most heavenly and life changing sermons in mankinds history?

How could I without making some kind of presumption? Besides what sort of self righteousness is it to presume that there is anything other than an attempt to 'moderate' the conversations? There is no mandates, it is a very loose set of guidelines ...

I was sent here to be a beacon of God's voice ...

Do you realize how many times we have heard this over the years? And you say you have not pride? "Here I come to save the day!" (Mighty Mouse) :-D

Dear brother, this is not what you think! It is not personal at all even if it is addressing your responses. I have no particular beef with you only your misconceptions. You come across as having this - "us" all figured out when there are thousands upon thousands of postings and replies. You are contradicting yourself -

if someone expresses something tha someone doesn't agree with, there is a seriously distateful response that is given...

[i]"We act just like Coulter, Limbaugh, and hannity, to one another.... [/i]"

Not the first of this sort of insinuation.


Yes there are good conversations, but many of them just like your response to ChrisJD and I , they are responses of selfishness that attempts to shut others down, and yes it is done in a slick manner, but none the less, you are the MOD.

Shutting others down ... Is that not what you are after?


"I am the MOD" - big deal ... I am a vile, unprofitable, unworthy servant brother and if anything, [i]anything[/i] at all I am trying to convey it is that you are greatly mistaken with your presumptions, that's all. Don't read things into the conversations, there is no animosity, there is no anger or emotionalism or any other thing and if anything do not be persuaded because you receive a handful of PM's from those who side with your opinion - That is divisive in itself and a sort of back door policy that is very grievous. Precisely how church splits start and are fueled along.

Granted there is much here that is misconstrued and I took you to task but not alone. I do not think you are hearing anything that I have said -

"[i]but you still refuse to listen[/i]" ...

I think your are far too easily offended brother.



I say again to us all, Repent, we must change from the Mods to the newest of members....

And with that I am in complete agreement. Brother, this forum has one word that permeates to the depths of it's foundations;

Misunderstanding.

Writing and expression, personalities and background .... [i]presumption[/i] is a deadly force here in this confine, climbing into each others heads, assumptions about people (saints no less) that cannot be ascertained in a matter of a few days or weeks. But too often we will make up our minds far too quickly and that from a handful of responses, I am speaking in great sweeping generalities. In fact I have spoken far too much. It's not what it seems brother, forgive me for my manner.

P
psalm1

ginnyrose said;
"Brother, the racial hatred you see today is coming from the people of color. Rev. Jeremiah Wright is the poster boy for this hatred. People who hate have a heart problem that only God can fix."............thank you,so true

I tell you for a certainty,our nation,in order to survive must get past the victim exploiting that certain groups are promoting for political purposes.


Look at this statement Samuel Johnston:
• “It is apprehended that Jews, Mahometans (Muslims), pagans, etc., may be elected to high offices under the government of the United States. Those who are Mahometans, or any others who are not professors of the Christian religion, can never be elected to the office of President or other high office, [unless] first the people of America lay aside the Christian religion altogether, it may happen. Should this unfortunately take place, the people will choose such men as think as they do themselves.
[Elliot’s Debates, Vol. IV, pp 198-199, Governor Samuel Johnston, July 30, 1788 at the North Carolina Ratifying Convention]

has this eriely come to pass?

G
GodsFire

Mr Moderator,

there is no mote, plank or beam here, we are all in the same condition if we do not do something about it NOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!

You mean to insult and that is why many of the others here are so insulting, it is allowed where deemed, but I come, and then I and what i say is challenged and rejected. there is a bit of a clickish sound to it, dont you think? Not that I am calling my self a perfect, I do not.

Example
When one doesnt mean to insult , then they Don't!
I don't mean to sin, but i did, I did just what was in my heart.

Sir or Mr Moderator, I did not insult you at all, nor did I intend to...

Sir, I am not Mighty Mouse nor am I here to save the day, we all must save ourselves after the word is heard or preached...

BAsed upon just what you stated about all of the people that have come through here with a word, well brother,

did you actually read my words with your heart and not with a guard up or a here we go again, because the words that were brought forth were not for your or my pleasing.... I wish i could keep quiet or not say anything, but it isn't the way God does it through my life, and it hasn't been for quite a while.

But i came here with no malice, no issues, no contention or strife, I got engaged here with the revival conference, I heard the sermons, i actually went to the meetings, but still there is an "air" pride and disgrace among the massess of people that were so Holy prior....

To me brethren, it just bothers me and doesn't make any sense...

Please, and I beg you please do not take me wrong as I feel you have, i do not find it strange, but I am trying to be a good ambassador, but it appears that any thing that is said or expressed that is just a "tadbit" different or blatant to another in correction then again I say no matter how many quotes you mister Moderator bring forth, someone gets lambasted with motes....

I still mean wht i say with absolutely no malice... or ill informed intentions....

C
ChrisJD

Hi Psalm1,

I would like say something about what you shared here,


'ginnyrose said;
"Brother, the racial hatred you see today is coming from the people of color. Rev. Jeremiah Wright is the poster boy for this hatred. People who hate have a heart problem that only God can fix."............thank you,so true

I tell you for a certainty,our nation,in order to survive must get past the victim exploiting that certain groups are promoting for political purposes.'


I don't want to suggest that you're wrong brother that people should not be exploited like that, but during the campaign, I saw a news story about two men described as neo-nazi's that were arrested for ploting to murder scores of black people.


I've seen flyers about these groups here in the city.


And then, most recently, there was the news story that I shared in this thread reporting an alleged hundreds of incidents of threats and hate since the election.


I do not know if these things are being used by the media or political groups to promote an agenda(am not saying that you think they are either, they could be?), but I think too, that it would be good for us to constructively seek how we can be ministers of peace during the days ahead.

Also, about this,

"Look at this statement Samuel Johnston:
• “It is apprehended that Jews, Mahometans (Muslims), pagans, etc., may be elected to high offices under the government of the United States. Those who are Mahometans, or any others who are not professors of the Christian religion, can never be elected to the office of President or other high office, [unless] first the people of America lay aside the Christian religion altogether, it may happen. Should this unfortunately take place, the people will choose such men as think as they do themselves.
[Elliot’s Debates, Vol. IV, pp 198-199, Governor Samuel Johnston, July 30, 1788 at the North Carolina Ratifying Convention]

has this eriely come to pass?"


I too was struck by that qoute recently. And too, by another one which I shared here, attributed to a quaker. I read the qoute in a book while browsing it, the title of which described him as the Apostle of Abolition. I think it might be appropriate for us to compare the two in considering our judgment of its having come to pass. Perhaps it has, in more way than one(I have bolded the qoute so that it may be easily distinguished):

[b]When proceedings have been from that wisdom which is from beneath and inequitable gain hath been gathered by a man and left as a gift to his children who entangled by the same worldly spirit have not attained to that clearness of light in which the channels of righteousness are opened and justice done to those who remain silent under injuries it hath under humbling exercise of mind appeared to rue that the sins of the fathers are embraced by the children and become their sins and thus in the days of tribulation the iniquities of the fathers are visited upon these children who take hold of the unrighteousness of their fathers and live in that spirit in which those iniquities were committed To this agreeth the prophecy of Moses concerning a rebellious people They that are left of you shall pine away in their iniquity in your enemies lands and also in the iniquities of their fathers shall they pine away with them Lev xxvi 39 Our blessed Lord in beholding the hardness of heart in that generation and feeling in himself that they lived in the same spirit in which the prophets had been persecuted unto death signified that the blood of all the prophets which was shed from the foundation of the world should be required of that generation from the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias which perished between the altar and the temple Luke xi 50 51[/b]


http://books.google.com/books?id=zMEEAAAAYAAJ&lpg=PA283&ots=RpOzLqZin4&dq=%22John%20Woolman%22%20%22Moses%22%20%22iniquity%22&pg=PA283&ci=58,401,923,862&source=bookclip"


A Journal of the Life, Gospel Labors, and Christian Experiences of that Faithful Minister of Jesus Christ John Woolman, to which are Added His Last Epistle and Other Writings By John Woolman

Wish you love and grace from God,


Chris

R
rbanks

Bro. fire,

This thread is a subject that brings pain and frustration out in people because of the subject matter that deals with the persons of individuals. This has a tendency to bring our flesh back alive instead of being crucified. Notice the words of the apostle Paul:

2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
2Co 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
2Co 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

In verse 16 Paul said we are to know no man after the flesh, not even Jesus, but are to fellowship in Christ as new creatures. It is not a red, yellow, black, or white esteem but it is being formed to the image of Christ. We are not to war after the flesh and the weapons of our warfare is not to be of carnal means but mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds.

I hope you the best in Jesus my brother and I pray that you don’t get frustrated.

Grace to you!

G
GodsFire

Brother banks,

You are right, and am resigning from my response towards the Moderator....

I do not, and I repeat, I do not want to be contentious or overboard.


With Love

R
rbanks

And God richly bless you my brother!

C
crsschk

I was out of line here. Wrote to our brother privately and really didn't want to draw attention to this ... but felt I owed it to anyone coming across this.

It is a time of reflection and I abrupted it, over-spoke and made much ado over nothing.

H
HeartSong

Please forgive me also. Instead of praying, I was becoming resentful of the way people were treating each other -- which only served to add fuel to the fire. Oh, why am I so slow to learn these things.

S
sermonindex

Do you realize that I have gotten over 15 pm's in only what, a week or so I have been here of how many Disapprove of the narrow-mindedness and self -righteousness that exist here at this site that unprecendently displays and offers some of the most heavenly and life changing sermons in mankinds history?

15 PM's in a week? I really find that hard to believe. I draw probably the most attention of anyone here (thats not a boast... just stating the obvious), and I maybe receive 2 PM's a week, unless I'm having an on going conversation with someone.

And what about that? You're having PM cnversations with people about other people on this forum? Why does this take place behind people's backs? Backbiting and gossip are sins, ya know.

Kinda presumptuous to say "God sent me to be a beacon voice" isnt it? Not criticizing, just amazed that someone would actually say that and be serious.

Anyway... I had hoped this thread would have died by now. Guess not, eh? Dead horses get beaten around here sometimes, thats for sure.

Krispy

H
HeartSong

Krispy, you should go pray.
I will be praying for you.

S
sermonindex

Krispy, you should go pray.
I will be praying for you.

Not sure why you say that, but I pray quite a bit. Thanx.

Krispy

G
GodsFire

Mr Moderator, and I call you that my brother not for any sort of sarcasm, but it is easier for me...


I have acknowledged by pm and praise God Almighty for you brother.


Krispy,
For as many posts that I have read by you, they can be very harmful my brother, I really just bless God for your fiery and out-spoken Spirit....

I know you will give the devil his own brand of hell. The Lord Bless you Krispy


To everyone, I really do come in peace.....

I love you brethren, let us look toward HEaven....

S
sermonindex

GodsFire... I'm not at war with you, or anything even close to that, my brother.

When someone comes to me, or to a fellowship of which I am a part, and claims to be a "mouth piece of God"... I challenge it.

On one hand you have modern day "prophets" who say this sort of thing, and I have watched almost all of them abuse and manipulate God's people either for their own gain, or to the spiritual detriment of those who believe them.

Then I see true modern day prophets such as Keith Green... who did not consider himself to be a prophet and did all he could to discourage people from thinking he was one. Instead of abusing and manipulating... he gave his ministry away for free. Almost 30 years after his death his words are still challenging people all over the world to walk closer with God, and to go unto all the world with the gospel.

I dont believe anyone who is truly a prophet of God needs to tell everyone that they are. What will be the proof is the test of time. If what they have to say on behalf of God lasts, then they uttered prophetic. If it's here today and gone tomorrow... it was just mumbo-jumbo.

Krispy

G
GodsFire

Krispy,

Let me just start by saying this,

Your spirit here since I have belonged to this forum is somewhat controversial in attitude to me, I know some will not say it, but I will...

I think that you have great potential to be a blessing to the saved and the lost...
I don't think it appropriate for you to feel as though you have to challenge everyone, rest my friend, just rest, unless you have a mandate to challenge everyone who says something that may be contrary to what or how you think.

my fine brother,

I am not a prophet in the terms in which you wrote nor did I claim to be, I simply said, I was sent to be used of God, to be a mouthpiece as we all are, I think you might have read into that wrongly.

I do not have anything but the Holy Spirit, nor did i come bragging about it or making it a display. Now, again, if that is the way you took it, then thought to challenge it, Please take a moment and think brother, if for nothing else, for my sake.

I believe that the body of believers need to exert their energy in the direction that needs the most confronting, and that is OUR shallowness of mind and heart, OUR insincere and broken-less lives. It isnt about me being a prophet, being a mouthpiece, being challenged, or anything else that can breed along the lines of debate or argument...

In Christ, we don't have to prepare to challenge others, we don't have to look for a fight, we need not fight in every fight with our carnality or fleshly engagement. We need not stir up or perpetuate strife.

I am just a brother in the Lord, and has never asked anyone to refer to me in any title sense, I have been around ministry for over twenty years, in other countries, and in missionaries, not even a pedigree, Christ is all I have in terms of my strength, . I also have a wife and two little boys.

I do not consider myself or want to be compared to keith Green or any other Christians, nor do I place myself on a pedastal. I am a quiet firestorm just as yourself, but I offer nothing to prove, Christ proves it all for us.

I have no mumbo jumbo to offer, nor am I abusing or manipulating and your exactly right, no one needs to tell anyone that they are a prophet or any other title for that manner, it fits the calling.

May God continue to shine wisdom and understanding in your life my brother, and I say my brother because we are related by true blood affectionately.

please just read this on the surface, no need to look into it.

With Love,

S
sermonindex

GodsFire... like I said, I am not at war with you. If I'm not mistaken it was you who claimed to be sent here as a mouthpiece of God, correct? If thats not controversial, I dont know what is.

I think we just have two strong personalities trying to see how they can best fit together. I dont disagree with anything you just wrote. That's fine with me.

If you post controversial posts, as you have done, then you can expect controversial responses. You can't post something controversial (as you have done, as have I), and then yell "foul!" when someone challenges you.

You have a false perception of me. If people are PM'ing you about me... then shame on then for being backbiters and gossips. If someone has a problem with something I've said or done then it is their responsibility to confront me. If they dont, and they go around secretly and complain to others, well... I couldn't care less what they think of me.

I would challenge you that instead of collecting greivences against me and then representing those people publicly in posts (which is what you do when you basically say "many people agree with me privately but wont say anything to you")... you should encourage them to either come to me personally with their complaints and deal with me about it... or be quiet.

Otherwise everyone involved is acting immaturely and sinfully.

Anyway... a little off the track there. Your perception of me is incorrect. I am not the firebrand that you think I am. Perhaps if you give it a little more time you may see that I'm actually quite a nice guy.

There are those here that have come to me privately about some really personal issues they are dealing with who have found that in me they have a friend. May not always have the answer, but have been there for them.

There are those in my personal life who think it quite funny how some people on this forum view me. But I also understand that all you get are words on a forum... you dont get the personality behind them.

Some folks here assume because I am a proponent of the KJV, and take a strong stand for the Word of God the way I do that I must be an "older" gentleman... when in fact, I'm 41. It really tripped people out before I turned 40 and they found out I was in my 30's! lol...

I have 4 boys... oldest is 14 and youngest is 3. I love kids, hate to wear suits, I cause controvery here because I refuse to condemn Christian rock, I hate to shave, I coach football, I teach the Bible (we have a house church) in jeans and a football jersey, I have a wife who has the personality of sweet tea, I love a good joke, my favorite Christian comedian is Brad Stine (you think I'm controversial?), I'd rather hug you than argue with you, I drive too fast, I love to fish and hunt, I love my Mormon neighbor, my dogs think I'm pretty cool... thats who I am.

So ya know... can I be a bit forward on here? Yes. And I realize at times I go a little overboard. And I really try not to. I'm a lot better than I was when I got here. Mike and Greg both had to reel me in, and work on me. But this perception that I am always angry and mad and controversial... it just aint so. I've gotten as many comments on my sense of humor on this forum as I have anything controversial I've written.

Even got in some trouble with Greg a few years back over an April Fools joke I pulled once. lol...

I love ya, my brother.

Krispy

G
GodsFire

I can see that we will not get very far, for you are still belingerant, your tones are hostile through your ability to want to challenge and correct, I respect that to a certain degree, and that is what I meant by a firebrand. Yes you portray wisdom through your experiences with your responses, but entirely too sharp whether it is young brethren or older brethren, but you I believe that if you are this sharp or "challenging" as you put it with us, then I would say that you are either cowardice in person( which i don't believe) or you are this way quite often with many. Please you need not respond to that with offense either, It is not being sent as an insult but rather only a comparison to what I know about the many people with this exact type of spirit.

As far as who you say you are, that is you take, perception is always in the eyes of the beholder. You continue to be who you are no one can change that, and at the end of the day you have only Christ to please and He must find pleasure in you, not I. for even if I do not find pleasure in you, I will love you because it is in my heart.

Take another step back is what I would recommend, nevertheless, you will be your own worst enemy if you don't. I was where you are before, and there is absolutely nothing that I or anyone else will be able to tell you, the Lord will teach you this one first hand as He has taught me...

Again, I have not made a controversial statement, but I will allow you to believe so and keep it right htere if you want.

It will be done with love on my end,I will have No hard feelings, I will just let you have the floor.....

Peace and my real love for you in Christ,

The fire

S
sermonindex

I can see that we with this particular post will not get far, for you are still belingerant, your tones are hostile

Then I give up because I was being friendly and light with that post, trying to extend an olive branch and find some common ground between brothers. You have made it obvious that you do not accept said branch. The floor is not mine... 'tis your's. You can have it.

Krispy

G
GodsFire

Praise the Lord All

C
crsschk

Brother ... brothers.

Had no intention of jumping back into this, hoping\\praying that you would settle this out on your own.

I can see that we with this particular post will not get far, for you are still belingerant, your tones are hostile through your ability to want to challenge, I respect that to a certain degree, and that is what I meant by a firebrand. yes you portray wisdom through your experiences with your responses, but entirely too sharp whether it is young brethren or older brethren, but you I believe that if you are this sharp or "challenging" as you put it with us, then I would say that you are either cowardice in person( which i don't believe) or you are this way quite often with many. Please you need not respond to that with offense either, It is not being sent as an insult but rather only a comparison to what I know about the many people with this exact type of spirit.

Brother how in the world might this expected to be taken? If I myself had written the same words to yourself ... can you read it like that, take a minute and hear it from that perspective? This is very much the essence of "I know your type" and is a grievous thing, it is not only untrue, but completely unnecessary, if any of us must harbor these things, please keep them to yourself.

I am at fault for fueling much of this in the first place, I jumped on the same that Krispy then continued, all over a misconception of what our brother meant by being a 'beacon'. The sheer stupidity and silliness, rather than [i]ask[/i] for a clarification or supposing the [i]best[/i], I\\we supposed the worst. Maybe we are a bit gun shy and hair triggered ... jaded? even from so much abuse of the whole realm of presumptive prophets and the like ...

What occurred to me as I was humbled by some regular life circumstances, read back through my ill advised comments here and rescinded them was a twofold problem.

Expectations. On one end is that which 'we' as in those of us who have tarried here a bit longer might have of those who are newer to these surroundings and yes, the exact opposite. GodsFire it must be admitted was not completely out of line elsewhere when he made the observation that this seemed all very 'clique-ish', that there was a sense of outsiders almost being held at arms length ... it is [i]not[/i] true ultimately but the impression ...? I can certainly see that is very possible and where we are wrong.

There needs to be a lowering of expectations on both sides and a great deal of patience practiced by all I believe. Again, redundantly, things are not what they may seem here. GodsFire, Krispy is none of those things you suppose and I will not harbor that you are anything but sincere in your intentions either.

Politics is where a great deal of things get us all off track. We seem a bit removed from this now but not many days ago it was the smoldering fire underneath any number of things, sometimes inflamed and other times alluded to, a comment here, a few words there. It is why we have been so ... cautious and even at times overbearing about the discussions on them. Can you see why? It almost always ends in strife and divisiveness, misconstruing of intentions and motives .... on and on.

There is no defending to be had, there is enough blame to go around if we point the fingers at our selves.

G
GodsFire

Brother Moderator and others,

I am sorry, very sorry, if it was taken wrongly,

But this is how my view, my understanding, my assessment has been made, basically off the manner in which I have perceived KrispyKritter.

S
sermonindex

Expectations. On one end is that which 'we' as in those of us who have tarried here a bit longer might have of those who are newer to these surroundings and yes, the exact opposite. GodsFire it must be admitted was not completely out of line elsewhere when he made the observation that this seemed all very 'clique-ish', that there was a sense of outsiders almost being held at arms length ... it is not true ultimately but the impression ...? I can certainly see that is very possible and where we are wrong.

I definitely agree with your sentiments here, Mike. I know I have at times not been very patient with newcomers to the forum. Even referred to one as a "newbie", which in retrospect was very condescending.

I'll take this opportunity to apologize to any of our newer brethren to the forum for not being patient with you... yet expecting you to be patient with me. I haven't been like that with everyone, but I do recognize that I have done it with a fair number of you.

I'm sorry to anyone who feels like I've been clique-ish, or condescending toward you.

Thank you, Mike for pointing this out. When I read that paragraph the Holy Spirit shone a light in my heart and pointed this sin out.

And I apologize to GodsFire for thinking wrongly about you. I think we probably have more common ground than either of us know. Hopefully we can find it and learn to live in peace.

Krispy

G
GodsFire

To all openly,


Please again forgive me, I should have gone to PM longtime ago.

I will never address someone personally in such a manner again in the open forum whether it seems right, appears right, or sounds right.

Let God be true and every man a liar

Krispy, you have a PM

forgive me Krispy

Godsfire

S
sermonindex

forgive me Krispy

Absolutely.

Please forgive me.

Krispy

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