God hates sin, God hates sinners, & God's love is conditional

There seems to be a great deal of resistance against the teaching that God perfectly hates sinners. My brother and I put together a little something after I recently read an old thread here on SI and my brother showed me a video sermon where Mark Driscoll brought to attention that the quote, "Hate the sin and not the sinner," is taken from the hindu Mahatma Gandhi.

Does anyone else seem to have such enormous opposition to the reality that God hates not only sin but the sinners themselves? How do you all deal with these things?

Here is the blog we put up:

"Hate the sin and not the sinner." This quote is taken from the hindu Mahatma Gandhi's autobiography and is a saying often incorrectly attributed to Jesus Christ or, at least, to be of Christian origins.

Here is another quote from a blog regarding "Loving the sinner but hating the sin." The blogger here was trying parallel an out of context quote by St. Augustine from "St. Augustine's letter 211 (c. 424)" that "also contains the phrase Cum dilectione hominum et odio vitiorum, which translates roughly as 'With love for mankind and hatred of sins.'"
The problem here is that the blog writer indeed gives a very rough translation... Upon further research though, I came across a professional translation (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1102211.htm) that shows the context of Augustine's letter is specifically speaking to those "persons" in the church -- not "mankind," as in the "rough translation." As you read the actual article that Augustine wrote, it is very clearly referring to the famous chapter of 1 Corinthians 5, about how the church is to deal with unrepentant Christians within the church body. Augustine is definately not referring to unregenerated mankind.
So, this shows that Mahatma Gandhi's quotation "Hate the sin and not the sinner" has no actual biblical, nor christian historical basis for Christians to use today. I find it fascinating, but not altogether surprising, that this phrase from a hindu "holy man" should gather such strong influence within Christian theology.

A modern "christian" way of interpreting these phrases is: "God loves the sinner and hates the sin."

So, let us see what others have had to say about this beginning with St. Augustine who was a moment ago taken out of context, and continue in his thoughts on this important subject.
AUGUSTINE (354-430, Bishop of Hippo): "For it may be that God hates a person to the degree more mildly, as not to destroy him, but whom He destroys He hates the more exceedingly, by how much He punisheth more severely. Now He hateth all who work iniquity: but all who speak lies He also destroys." (Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Vol.3, p.462)

BROADMAN BIBLE COMMENTARY: "Yahweh takes no pleasure in wickedness and does not dwell with evil (or evil men). Insolent, boasting people have no position at all in the presence of Yahweh, who hates all 'doers of sin.' Indeed, Yahweh will annihilate those who speak deception: He detests the man of bloody deeds and deceits."

F. DELITZSCH : "Of such (sinners - the foolish, and more especially the foolish boasters:)... such men Jehovah hates: for if He did not hate evil, His love would not be a holy love," ... "And His soul hates the evildoer and him that delights in the violence of the strong against the weak. And the more intense this hatred, the more fearful will be the judgments in which it bursts forth." (Psalms, Vol.5, pp.122,189)

JONATHAN EDWARDS: "The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much in the same way one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect, over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked: His wrath towards you burns like fire: He looks upon you as worthy of nothing else but to be cast into the fire: He is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in His sight: you are ten thousand times more abominable in His sight than the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours." (Sinners In the Hands of an Angry God, July 8, 1741)

CHARLES G. FINNEY: "The very thing that God hates and disapproves is not the mere event - the thing done in distinction from the doer; but it is the doer himself. It grieves and displeases God that a rational moral agent under His government should array himself against his own God and Father, against all that is right and just in the universe. This is the thing that offends God. The sinner himself is the direct and only object of His anger." (The Guilt of Sin, pp.84-85)

THE INTERNATIONAL CRITICAL COMMENTARY: "But the wicked His soul doth hate ... Their treacherous preparations...are all observed by Yahweh, and He hates them from His very soul. The soul is the seat of the passion of anger and hatred, for God as well as for man...therefore, Yahweh is trying the righteous man, and hating His deadly enemies..."

THE INTERPRETER'S BIBLE: "In vs. 5 the verb 'trieth' has its object both the righteous and the wicked, and means nomore that the Lord watchfully observes them both and estimates them for what they are, hating the latter and ultimately pouring His destruction upon them."

LAYMAN'S BIBLE COMMENTARY: "God's Hatred of Evildoers (Psalm 5:4-5)... God is not said to love the sinner and hate his sin; He is said to hate both the sinner and his sin. This sounds harsh to modern Christian ears, but thereis truth here we dare not overlook."

MATTHEW HENRY'S COMMENTARY: "He is a holy God, and therefore hates them (the sinner), and cannot endure to look upon them; the wicked, and him that loveth violence, His soul hateth... Their pros-perity is far from being an evidence of God's love...their abuse of it does certainly make them objects of His hatred. He hates nothing that He has made, yet hates those who have ill-made themselves."

J. VERNON MCGEE: " If you think God is just lovey-dovey, you had better read this (Ps.11:5) and some of the other Psalms again. God hates the wicked who hold onto their wickedness... I do not think God loves the devil, I think He hates him, and He hates those who have no intention of turning to God. Frankly, I do not like this distinction that I hear today, that 'God loves the sinner, but hates the sin.' God has loved you so much that He gave His Son to die for you, but if you persist in your sin, and continue in that sin, you are the enemy of God. And God is your enemy." (Psalms, Vol.1, p.72)

CHARLES H. SPURGEON: "Verse 5 - Note the singular opposition of the two sentences. God hates the wicked, therefore in contrast He loves the righteous..." (The Treasury of David, Vol.2, pp.57-58)

AUGUSTUS HOPKINS STRONG : "There is no abstract sin that can be hated apart from the person in whom that sin is represented and embodies. It is the sinner who is punished, not the sin." (Systematic Theology, p.290f)

JOHN WESLEY (1703-1791, founder of Methodism): "But as for the wicked, God hates them, and will feverishly punish them." (Explanatory Notes Upon the Old Testament, Vol.2, p.1639)

GOD'S LOVE IS CONDITIONAL
The idea that "God hates the sin, but loves the sinner" is a lie. God is angry with the wicked daily and He will eternally judge both the living and the dead according to their deeds done in this life.

He does not demonstrate His love by some arbitrary feelings, lust, or emotions as liars might say, "Ohhh, God loves you unconditionally!" Paul Washer mocks those fools when he theatrically declares, "Jesus loves you!" whereby the sinner, that unrepentant man, responds with glee, "What? Jesus loves me? Really? That's wonderful, I love me too!"

God demonstrated His love for the world, when He sent His one and only son Jesus, the Christ, to die upon a cross. God the Father did this because of His eternal love that He has shared for His Son and the likeness and image of His son --which He created men in (Genesis 1:26; Romans 8:29; Colossians 3:10). That is, God loves His Son and He therefore loves us for the sake of His Son because we are created in His image -- even though this image is marred and obscured in our fallen sin nature.

Notice also that anytime God talks about His love demonstrated towards us, while we were yet sinners, He talks about His Son Jesus Christ dying on the cross and resurrecting from the dead to take away the sins of the world. A holy God cannot love anything or anyone with sin. If anyone refuses to repent and be saved from their sins and thereby dies in sin then they will be seperated from God's mercy; which is hell. As it is written, Matthew 7:23, And then will I profess unto them, "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." And again, Matthew 25:41, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels." If you have not repented and believed on Him, you are dead in your sins because God has already judged the world in righteousness.

John 3
18. He that believes on him (Jesus) is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Here are a couple of sermons for listening:

Pastor Mark Driscoll, "none of us are good people and how God feels about that."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13c1MH9Dj4w

A Burning Heart by Leonard Ravenhill,
"Some people say 'God hates your sin but loves you, the sinner', but that's bunkum - God hates you for sinning."
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=4229

Here are a few scriptural references:

Psalm 5:4-6
Leviticus 20:23
Leviticus 26:14-30
Deuteronomy 18:12
Deuteronomy 25:16
Deuteronomy 28:62-63
Deuteronomy 32:16-20
Psalm 2:4-9
Psalm 7:11-13
Psalm 10:3
Psalm 11:5-7
Psalm 50:22
Psalm 78:57-63
Psalm 106:40
Proverbs 3:32-33
Proverbs 6:16-19
Proverbs 16:5
Proverbs 17:5
Proverbs 22:14
Isaiah 63:10
Jeremiah 17:5
Hosea 9:15
Zephaniah 3:15
Malachi 1:3-4

Psalm 139:16-24
Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they all were written, the days fashioned for me, when as yet there were none of them. How precious also are Your thoughts to me, O God! How great is the sum of them! If I should count them, they would be more in number than the sand; when I awake, I am still with You. Oh, that You would slay the wicked, O God! Depart from me, therefore, you bloodthirsty men. For they speak against You wickedly; Your enemies take Your name in vain. Do I not hate them, O LORD, who hate You? And do I not loathe those who rise up against You? I hate them with perfect hatred; I count them my enemies. Search me, O God, and know my heart; try me, and know my anxieties; and see if there is any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.

The New Testament likewise agrees with the Old Testament for God does not change -- Malachi 3:6, "For I the LORD do not change," and again, Hebrews 13:8, "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever."

Matthew 7:13-23
Matthew 10:28
Romans 9:13
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Galatians 5:19-21
Ephesians 5:3-6
2 Thessalonians 1:6-9
Hebrews 10:30-31
James 2:13
James 4:4
2 Peter 2:4-22
Jude 1:6-7

Acts 13:10
"You who are full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?

1 Peter 3:12
"For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.

Revelation 14:10-11
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Also, keep in mind, the purpose for bringing this up is to rightly balance the Love of God with His Hate.

As the post-modern, humanistic mind has polarized God's hate and love as black and white. That is, "love" is good and light and true and "hate" is evil and dark and false. God hates, this is Truth, God loves, this is Truth, and two eternal Truths cannot be contrary but must, of necessity, be wholly in agreement and peaceable co-existing in God to the infinite, maximum potentcy. Therefore, God's hate is Light.

This is not altogether unlike the articles by Jonathan Edwards concerning God's "revealed will and his secret will," or His "will of command and decree," and to say, "there is no inconsistency or contrariety between the decretive and preceptive will of God."

We have been considering a clear and concise way to as accurately as possible explain that God both loves and hates sinners, without contradiction. Which is essentially to explain how it is that we are commanded to "flee the wrath to come," which is the Wrath of God, and the very way we are bid to flee is by drawing near to Him through Christ Jesus.

I can't help but compare this very thing to Mount Sinai when God told the people to "come up."

[b]Hebrews 12
18.[/b] For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
[b]19.[/b] And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
[b]20.[/b] (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
[b]21.[/b] And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:)
[b]22.[/b] But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
[b]23.[/b] To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
[b]24.[/b] And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
[b]25.[/b] See that ye refuse not him that speaketh.

And to Him we draw near with full assurance of faith by the forgiveness of our sins by Christ Jesus our Savior.

Also, the fictional novel, "The Shack," which promotes the currently popular "Universalism" message is taking root in today's relativistic christianity and seems to be having some particularly strong delusions concerning heaven and hell -- and thus God's love and hate.

Such that hell is being described as the "absence of God" -- that is to deny God's omnipresence and sovereignty, for He is God and Lord of hell. And is a direct attack against such foundational Christian teachings as "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" by Jonathan Edwards. Likewise, the "wrath" of God has seemingly been delegated to satan because God is "loving and kind." This also has led to some impression that hell is the kingdom of Satan where he shall torment lost souls, thus, Jesus died to save us from satan rather than to save us from the Justice of God. And sin has become this detached thing separate from the sinner which is an influence from eastern mysticism (hinduism, buddhism, scientology, etc.) -- that is to say, we are inwardly good people we just need to be "healed" or "improved" rather than crucified and put to death so that we might become partakers of the resurrection of Christ, who is the perfect Man.

HI everyone.

boG, if I could share something of a personal note: I think that it is astounding sometimes the multitude of words that we write.

"much in the same way one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect, over the fire, abhors you"

Mat 8:2-3

Hate the sin and not the sinner." This quote is taken from the hindu Mahatma Gandhi's autobiography and is a saying often incorrectly attributed to Jesus Christ or, at least, to be of Christian origins.

Perhaps it is due to the idea that sin is something akin to an an amoeba floating about in the atmosphere ... Like catching a cold.

[i]Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned[/i]:

Rom 5:12

Such that hell is being described as the "absence of God"

In a great sense it is the absence that is hell. Or maybe it could be put that it is known that He is there, just not [i]here[/i]. A figure of speech has a range of possibility and consideration; Outer darkness and fires that never cease burning taken in exact similitude are contradictory, but as expression ... What the world does not recognize nor realize is what sort of 'hell' this planet, this life would truly be if God were to remove His providence, His hand as we are want to put it. How much more when there is no more ... ?

Colloquialisms.

And sin has become this detached thing separate from the sinner which is an influence from eastern mysticism (hinduism, buddhism, scientology, etc.) -- that is to say, we are inwardly good people we just need to be "healed" or "improved" rather than crucified and put to death so that we might become partakers of the resurrection of Christ, who is the perfect Man.

Right you are.

I quite enjoy Mark Driscoll sometimes; his preaching reminds me a lot of Spurgeon, he is what I imagine Spurgeon might be like if here were to come onto the scene today.

hi, are we to deny that while we were yet sinners He died for us or that God is love or that God so loved the world so we can tell people the bad news of hate? pride(rejection of the cross)is what He hates.jim p

I will be very straightforward before we get into this post: I am not writing these things in an attempt to lay out the final conclusion, packaged deal, "I got this figured out" answer. This thread is for the discussion of God's infinite perfection of Holy Love and Holy Hate. I request that you all put these statements to the test so that all error may be reproved by wise and godly counsel; because I must admit, I am not familiar with any teachings or sermons on some of these things whereby I might compare them. So please, don't simply compliment an agreeable statement but either support with scriptures that edify or reprove with scriptures where there needs to be clarity or to correct for the sake of restraining extremism.

Hello, ChrisJD, I am sorry but I am not sure what you are trying to say.

Such that hell is being described as the "absence of God"

I recently came across this quote while listening to an online lecture:

"Hell is eternity in the presence of God.
And, Heaven is eternity in the presence of God with a Mediator." -- R. A. Finlayson

Consider that for a moment. This is very much a "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" view of hell. [b]Psalm 139:8[/b], "If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there." I do not believe Hell is the "absence of God's presence" but much rather hell is the overwhelming presence of God's omnipotent wrath and the absence of His mercy -- for God is a consuming fire.

In the same way, consider why it was necessary for God to put Adam and Eve out of the garden of Eden: He put them out lest they should eat of the Tree of Life and "live for ever." I believe it is fair to say the Tree of Life is a representation of the Pentacostal outpouring or indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Thus, if Adam and Eve had partaken of that True Vine before there had been an atonement for their sins they would have been turned into hell, it would have been instant judgment, the Holy Presence of God would have come into the midst of an unholy people (ie. Sodom and Gomorrah) and they indeed would have "lived for ever."

Having said that I also hope we will be guided by the Holy Spirit on when to emphasis this truth as we also must emphasis His great love for His enemies.

Indeed! Who is man that God is mindful of him? And what great love is this wherewith He has loved us, this beautiful mystery of God's love towards us revealed in Christ Jesus?

By no means am I attempting to diminish the True Love of God by overstating the Wrath of God but rather I am attempting to reprove this false "love" that excludes God's righteous and just hate. As I previously said, "how it is that we are commanded to 'flee the wrath to come,' which is the Wrath of God, and the very way we are bid to flee is by drawing near to Him through Christ Jesus." This is seemingly a contradiction! How does God hate us with a perfect hatred and yet still seeks to draw us near to Himself in lovingkindess and mercy forgiving our iniquity?

As it is, if God loves us sinners "just as we are" why would He seek to change us? Would He not rather say, O, you vile little sinners, you are just too adorable! I love you all too much to be angry with you, besides you're not the problem, it is just that nasty sin! I love you unconditionally (because obviously God doesn't make any covenants -- conditions -- with us and the fact that God hates sin, that isn't a condition of His love either, right?) the way you are, don't worry about that little thing which I swore in My Holiness, "the soul that sins, it shall die" and again, "the wages of sin is death" ...

I realize some might argue that because God loves us He seeks to redeem us, however, such a perspective requires that God loves sin -- for we are sinners. I don't know about you all, but I don't believe God loves sin and I don't consider lightly the rebukes of God when He calls ungodly men "abominations" and that "His soul abhors" and "He hates" and "is angry with the wicked daily" and "shall utterly destroy the wicked" and "they shall not inherit the kingdom of God" and "shall not see eternal life" and "shall receive no mercy" and "shall be cast into the lake of fire, this is the second death", etc., you get the idea.

Now then, where do I stand on this?

Well, I have been coming to the conclusion that the very fact that God hates us sinners is the very reason He sets to put us to death to the "old man," or life of sin, and thereby raise us up with His resurrection power by the Holy Spirit. And He also does this to save the fallen image of His likeness which He made us in because He loves the potential and actualization of conforming us in the image of His Beloved Son.

So, God hates you but loves Christ in you. And I can live with that, I hate my sinful self and love Christ too! Whereby the more the life of Christ is formed in me the more I truly live -- those who shall lose their life for My sake shall find it ([b]Matthew 10:39[/b])!

Hi boG,

"Hello, ChrisJD, I am sorry but I am not sure what you are trying to say."

I'm sorry, I had intended the scripture refrence to be compared with the qoute and the idea of this thread.

I should have said something to make that clear.

Take care,

Chris

I have been wrestling my mind about these things lately. I believe God can hate and love at the same time, without any contradiction to His nature. I'm interested in exploring the reconciliation of these things in the example of Christ's earthly ministry, He who is the image of the invisible God. I see what appears to be Christ's (God's) love for sinners (Zaccheus, the immoral woman, Matthew, etc.), AND His (should I say) hatred for religious leaders (brood of vipers, whitewashed sepulchres, etc.) and defilers of the Temple. Did He simply not disclose His hatred for the first group, nor His love for the second? If something can be understood, I yearn for it. I pray for grace and humility to realize I will never understand the vastness of our God.

It is difficult to reason that God mentally or emotionally hates mankind (even sinners) due to a nature that we are born with. This is particularly a difficult assumption when we consider the wealth of Scripture from God's own Word regarding His love for us while we were yet sinners:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
- John 3:16

"This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you."
- John 15:12-15

"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."
- Romans 5:8

"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
- Romans 8:38-39

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
- II Peter 3:9

"Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren."
-I John 3:16

"And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village."
- Luke 9:54-56

"And God said to Jonah, Doest thou well to be angry for the gourd? And he said, I do well to be angry, even unto death. Then said the LORD, Thou hast had pity on the gourd, for the which thou hast not laboured, neither madest it grow; which came up in a night, and perished in a night: And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?"
- Jonah 4:9-11

"The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children."
- Matthew 11:19

"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief."
- I Timothy 1:15

"But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved); And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus."
- Ephesians 2:4-6

"For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,"
- Titus 3:3-4

It just seems that the Scriptures CLEARLY indicate that God loves us...even while we were in sin. I suppose that the problem comes from our understanding of the word "hate" used in the passages in question. What does it mean to hate? Is hate the [i]absence[/i] of love...or is it a verb dealing with the [i]dispersion[/i] of judgment? The Word of God seems clear that God's love is extended to all...even while they are yet sinners.

We need to know all of the attributes of God, and just knowing one aspect of God's character will give us a faulty view of God. Much of the Church is unbalanced in their view of God and much of this is due to the teaching that God is either all mercy or that He is a God of wrath just waiting to pounce on us.

We must see both the goodness and severity of the Lord. Both the Lords great love for us, and His hatred of sin.

The book of Romans is a good book to see both the wrath of God against sin, and His great mercy towards sinners.

"For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. (Romans 5:6-10).

I too have been puzzled and challenged, in attempting to reconcile biblical statements about 'God hating sinners' and 'God loving sinners'. The way I've come to grips with the tension between these 2 is to recognize that, yes, God does abhor both the sin and the sinner. He is 'angry with the wicked every day'.

However, if his was only an attitude of being angry with us for our sin, he would not have sent his son to die for us. Therefore, his hatred remains for those who are without Christ (because of their present condition and position), though his hand of love and mercy is extended towards them, through the cross. Then if sinners 'receive not the love of the truth' (2 Thessalonians 2:10) God's wrath abides on them (John 3:36).

Although human comparisons are at best inadequate, I think of how I feel towards my kids sometimes. Sometimes I am extremely upset, no angry with them for their sinful attitudes. (I am not angry with 'the sin', I am angry with 'the kids'). Now, during times when my kids are rebellious etc and I feel angry with them, I am not only angry with them (by God's grace
:-) ). So I discipline them in love, with the aim of seeing them established in righteousness.

In a bible study this past week, our assistant pastor shared this : "If God's love is like a river, then his wisdom and righteousness are like the banks of that river, which guide the flow of that river." It is only as we understand God's great hatred for our sins, our sinfulness, that we can truly comprehend his love for us, in forgiving us of these sins.

In Jesus,
John

Excellent verses, thank you for your responses.

Please allow me to make a few points as [b]John 3:16[/b], for instance, is of interest in this.

[b]John 3
16[/b] For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
[b]17[/b] For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
[b]18[/b] “He who believes in Him is not condemned; [b]but he who does not believe is [u]condemned already[/u][/b], because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
[b]19[/b] And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
[b]20[/b] For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
[b]21[/b] But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

(And, if we continue to the end of this third chapter.)

[b]36[/b] He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and [b]he who does not believe the Son [u]shall not see life[/u], [u]but the wrath of God abides[/u] on him[/b].”

What does it mean to hate? Is hate the absence of love...?

If "hate" was the absence of "love" would that not mean it were the antithesis of "love" and therefore would be anti-God? And vice versa if we consider love to be the absence of hate.

What does it mean to hate? ...or is it a verb dealing with the dispersion of judgment?

Is God's hate simply a legal judgment rather than an emotional or spiritual opposition? I don't believe it is safe to separate God's judgment of sin from His contemning of sin.

[b]Isaiah 59
2.[/b] But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God,
And your sins have hidden His face from you so that He does not hear.

[b]John 9
31.[/b] "We know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is God-fearing and does His will, He hears him.

And likewise, our sins have brought up a "wall of hostility" between us and God. Not because our sins have overcome God (that would be to wrongly say that darkness has overcome light) but because evil cannot abide in the presence of God ([b]Psalms 5:4[/b], For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee).

It just seems that the Scriptures CLEARLY indicate that God loves us...even while we were in sin. [...] The Word of God seems clear that God's love is extended to all...even while they are yet sinners.

And let us not deny this, but let us as specifically as we possibly may study on why He loves sinners and seeks to save them. Does He seek to save us because we are sinners? or does He bring salvation for another reason?

[b]1 John 2
12.[/b] I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you [b]for His name's sake[/b].

[b]Ezekiel 36
19.[/b] "Also I scattered them among the nations and they were dispersed throughout the lands. According to their ways and their deeds I judged them.
[b]20.[/b] "When they came to the nations where they went, they profaned My holy name, because it was said of them, `These are the people of the LORD; yet they have come out of His land.'
[b]21.[/b] "[b]But I had concern for My holy name[/b], which the house of Israel had profaned among the nations where they went.
[b]22.[/b] "Therefore say to the house of Israel, `Thus says the Lord GOD, "[b]It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for My holy name[/b], which you have profaned among the nations where you went.
[b]23.[/b] "[b]I will vindicate ([u]sanctify[/u]) the holiness[/b] of My great name which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD," declares the Lord GOD, "[b]when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight[/b].
[b]24.[/b] "For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land.
[b]25.[/b] "[u]Then I will sprinkle clean water on you[/u], and you will be clean; [u]I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols[/u].
[b]26.[/b] "Moreover, [u]I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you[/u]; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and [u]give you a heart of flesh[/u].
[b]27.[/b] "[u]I will put My Spirit within you[/u] and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
[b]28.[/b] "You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; [u]so you will be My people, and I will be your God[/u].
[b]29.[/b] "Moreover, [u]I will save you from all your uncleanness[/u]; and I will call for the grain and multiply it, and I will not bring a famine on you.
[b]30.[/b] "I will multiply the fruit of the tree and the produce of the field, so that you will not receive again the disgrace of famine among the nations.
[b]31.[/b] "[b]Then you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and your abominations[/b].
[b]32.[/b] "[b][u]I am not doing this for your sake[/u][/b]," declares the Lord GOD, "let it be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel!"
[b]33.[/b] `Thus says the Lord GOD, "[u]On the day that I cleanse you from all your iniquities[/u], I will cause the cities to be inhabited, and the waste places will be rebuilt.
[b]34.[/b] "The desolate land will be cultivated instead of being a desolation in the sight of everyone who passes by.
[b]35.[/b] "They will say, `This desolate land has become like the garden of Eden; and the waste, desolate and ruined cities are fortified and inhabited.'
[b]36.[/b] "Then the nations that are left round about you will know that I, the LORD, have rebuilt the ruined places and planted that which was desolate; I, the LORD, have spoken and will do it."
[b]37.[/b] `Thus says the Lord GOD, "[b]This also I will let the house of Israel ask Me to do for them[/b]: I will increase their men like a flock.
[b]38.[/b] "Like the flock for sacrifices, like the flock at Jerusalem during her appointed feasts, so will the waste cities be filled with flocks of men. Then they will know that I am the LORD.""'

And, I personally directly relate [b]Exekiel 36[/b] to [b]John 17[/b]:

[b]John 17
9.[/b] "I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours;
...
(**Note: Jesus seems to be praying these things on behalf of the elect (however you view predestination) as opposed to simply asking on behalf of the whole world, whom He yet died for. That is to say, not that He did not bring salvation to the whole world but that there shall still be many who enter into the wide gates of hell -- and these prayers are for those who would enter in through the narrow gate of eternal life by faith.)

[b]13.[/b] "But now I come to You; and these things I speak in the world so that they may have My joy made full in themselves.
...
[b]17.[/b] "Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth.
[b]18.[/b] "As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.
[b]19.[/b] "[b][u]For their sakes[/u] I sanctify Myself[/b], that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth.
[b]20.[/b] "[b]I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word[/b];
[b]21.[/b] that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.
[b]22.[/b] "The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;
[b]23.[/b] I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, [b]so that the world may know that You sent Me, [u]and loved them[/u], even as You have loved Me[/b].
[b]24.[/b] "Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
[b]25.[/b] "O righteous Father, although the world has not known You, yet I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me;
[b]26.[/b] and I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known, so that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them."

The distinction between these two chapters appears to be that in the first, [b]Ezekiel 36[/b], God is speaking directly to sinners (It is not for your sake, I will vindicate (sanctify) the holiness of My great name) and in the second, [b]John 17[/b], God is speaking directly to the redeemed (For their sakes I sanctify Myself).

So I discipline them in love, with the aim of seeing them established in righteousness.

In a bible study this past week, our assistant pastor shared this : "If God's love is like a river, then his wisdom and righteousness are like the banks of that river, which guide the flow of that river." It is only as we understand God's great hatred for our sins, our sinfulness, that we can truly comprehend his love for us, in forgiving us of these sins.

Very good point. I have read elsewhere the following:

Isn't there a distinction to be drawn between love and reconciliation?
John Stott once defined love as comprising the two ingredients "sacrifice" and "service". Based on this and the verses above, I'd say that God loved me before I was saved.
Despite of this, I still hope that God one day will put things right and destroy everything sinful and evil; If he doesn't hate sin, there can be no heaven.

Question:
God hates the sinner, but loves the world of sinners.
How? Why?

[b]Gen 1:26[/b] [color=990000]And God said, let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;[/color]
God loves His own likeness & image because they are perfect and the whole of the trinity hold them.

God loves the sinner because he is made in the image, and according to the likeness of God.

God hates the sinner because he is defaming or has corrupted His image & likeness.

How & why does God love that which He hates?

God wants to redeem His own image & likeness which those He hates have.

"And it came to pass, that, as Jesus sat at meat in his house, many publicans and sinners sat also together with Jesus and his disciples: for there were many, and they followed him. And when the scribes and Pharisees saw him eat with publicans and sinners, they said unto his disciples, How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners? When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." (Mark 2:15-17)

Notice the difference between the reaction of Jesus towards sinners and that of the religious hypocrits.

Jesus said: "if you have seen me, you have seen the Father."

The Lord would have us to know His great compassion for the lost, to be a minister of reconciliation. We could never do this if we "hate sinners".

Mike

The Lord would have us to know His great compassion for the lost, to be a minister of reconciliation. We could never do this if we "hate sinners".

This is the very thing I am attempting to debunk.

So that we might properly understand "love" and "hate" according to the nature and testimony of God. As I previously said,

If "hate" was the absence of "love" would that not mean it were the antithesis of "love" and therefore would be anti-God? And vice versa if we consider love to be the absence of hate.

Why can we not seek to see sinners converted while hating the fact that they are sinners? If we honestly had "perfect hatred" ([b]Psalm 139[/b]) towards sinners would that by necessity obligate us to shun them or even that we might desire to murder them or have no compassion on them? Or would not hating sinners lead us to sympathize for their pitiful state of wretchedness? for such were we at one time.

I find in the Gospels, and especially Matthew, that Jesus showed 'compassion' to some and 'rage' to others. The rage was toward the religeous leaders who were supposed to be shephards. Instead they were more like wolves who instead, 'harassed'.

Jesus clearly stated that He did not come to condemn the world but that through Him, the world might be saved. He demonstrated this when the woman caught in adultary was brought to Him. 'Where are thine accusers?' 'Neither do I condemn thee. Go and sin no more.'

In John 17 Jesus is praying in the garden. It is the only time in the Bible that records the fact that God/Jesus sweats. If you read closely, you will notice that the sweat was not over the impending suffering, but overshadowing even that, was the longing He had for those who were left behind to know the love He had for them.

It is what He came to show us. He was true to it all the way to the end. I concluded after reading Matthew about a year ago, that He not only came to show His compassion but His rage for the religeous leaders whe were supposed to be doing it but weren't.

The Master’s Rage

For years I wondered of the Master’s rage;
\tthe harsh response on Holy page.
Where was compassion that others were shown?
\tWhat was the difference? What brought it on?

He had His fill of all He had seen.
\tThe scales were tipped; He would right them again.
He was harsh to the harsh and rightly so.
\tThey would finally reap what they had sewn.

They heaped and harassed so that none could attain,
\tlike wolves in the fold that unsettle and maim.
They offered no mercy, just more and more rules.
\tThey had missed their purpose and in so became fools.

It is in this setting that the master comes
\twith compassion for many, yet outrage toward some.
There wasn’t a struggle with how to react;
\tHe had seen it for years and came to attack.

It would cost Him His life, but oh what it bought;
\tthere was peace for His sheep and hope for the lost.
Help us oh Lord to be careful with rules.
\tLet mercy and kindness be our choice of tools.

MJ

Jesus clearly stated that He did not come to condemn the world but that through Him, the world might be saved.

This still doesn't change the fact that the world is "condemned already" ([b]John 3:18[/b]) and those who have "not believed on the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God [already] abides on them ([b]John 3:36[/b])."

He not only came to show His compassion but His rage for the religeous leaders whe were supposed to be doing it but weren't.

Does this mean that the adulterous woman is without danger of the wrath of God and eternal hell? Are only the religious leaders in danger of condemnation?

Are not the "lukewarm" vomitous to the Lord? We do not need to be "cold" like the pharisees to be cast into the lake of fire.

Quote:

This does not change the fact that the world is condemned already. (John 3:18)

Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.

And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.

And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,

They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.

Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more. (John 8: 1-11).

Jesus did not condemn the woman taken in adultery, but the religious hypocrits did, and wanted to stone her according to the law of Moses.

"For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ." (John 1:17).

"For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved." (John 3:17).

"For God so love the world". Who did God love? The world which consisted of sinful mankind. For this purpose He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life."

Jesus did not condemn the woman taken in adultery, but the religious hypocrits did, and wanted to stone her according to the law of Moses.

But the woman was still already condemned by God.

"For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ." (John 1:17).

And likewise, we shall be condemned by the grace we rejected and judged by the truth.

that whosoever believes in Him should not perish

Which means, that if they do not believe they will perish into everlasting fire. I have noticed here and there, this part of the verse is just passed over to get to the "good stuff."

Forgive me if it sounds like I am being "edgy" but it is necessary if balance is going to be restored into our teachings and doctrines of God. So, please, if I may ask ... how do these things you are bringing up in these testimonies of Jesus convince me that I need a Savior to save me from the wrath of God against sinners? Or, are you merely interested in telling people that He is "All-Loving" towards everybody and wants to give us all eternal life?

I have been considering whether I ought to introduce another characteristic of God to balance this "All-Loving" and call it His "All-Hating." What do you all think about that idea?

boG wrote:

merely interested in telling people that He is "All-Loving" towards everybody and wants to give us all eternal life?

Though I understand what you mean when you make this statement. I agree there are many who have come to overlook the fact that there is wrath to face if we reject Christ and remain in our sin. Where many have lost sight of that fact, still some others, including myself are partly motivated by that fact to do what we do.

I say partly motivated for a reason, of which I will try to explain. There are many who come to God in hopes of missing His wrath. Is that proper motivation?

There is a higher reason, and where there is the aspect of wrath contained in the scripture, this higher calling wreaks from scriture.

Interesting you use the term 'eternal life', because that is the higher calling that far outways the avoidance of wrath. This higher calling is the only thing that frees us from the trappings of sin. I might add here that sin is anything that keeps us from experiencing this 'eternal life' that God/Jesus so desperately desires we come to know.

Many think of 'eternal life' as living forever. But actually that would be everlasting life. Eternal life as stated in John 17:3 says, 'Now this is eternal life: that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.'

I have been a Christian 30 years. I have sought God, tought of Him and worked for Him during this time. I have just recently come to know Him as is described here. When you come to know Him in this way, His wrath is not the first thing that comes to mind when telling others about Him. To know Him is so all consuming that in fact you would be willing to endure His wrath to know Him more.

It is this knowing Him that compells us, or should compell us. Not to overlook the wrath, but simply from a perspective of knowing Him, it is secondary.

Allow me to be blunt, but respectful. I sense I may have a few years on you. Your zeal is to be commended. But in our zeal, we have to make sure it is properly focused or we can get off track fast.

Satan's overall goal in any of our lives, is to keep us from coming to know God as I have described. For some, he entices with sin and they never enter the race. But for those who have entered the race, there is still a host of things he has left to keep us from finding God as He is able to be found.

He can suggest that working for God is the way God. No sweat off him. He knows that is not the way to find God, so any that trapes off down that path will be diverted for years.

I'll cut to the chase and get to one that will raise a few eyebrows, but keeping in mind his overall goal is to keep us from coming to know God, I know it to be true. I experienced it. If all else fails, he will tempt you to do good. To take it a step further, he will tempt you to be holy.

I have tried to do good and be holy for 30 years. You can't do it and he knows it. All it does is set you up to hear him say, you'll never make it, or you've blown it again. He twists it to seem as if it is coming from God. But that is what the Pharisees were doing to the masses when Jesus came and let them have it. He did not like it then; He does not like it today.

The only thing that empowers us to be holy is truely knowing God. When and only when, He saturates our entire being, can we be free from the power and distractions of sin.

I would recommend to you, again if I can be blunt but respectful, that you lock yourself up with God until you find Him as I have described. This spirit of emphasis on His wrath is secondary to it. Definitely we need God to escape His wrath, but more we need Him that we might escape the power and stronghold of sin. Even that is a little bit secondary in light of simply knowing Him.

In light of the perspective I have presented, 'merely' is the wrong choice of words. He is 'all' interested in everyone knowing that He is 'All Loving' and longs for all to experience eternal life. He longs for all to know Him. He longs to know all of us. Sadly, not just sinners, but Christians as well, miss this privilege.

So, boG, you asked if anyone could tell you why you needed a savior to save you from the wrath of God against all sinners. You first need a savior that you might have life; escaping His wrath is secondary. Just as knowing God is eternal life now, not knowing Him, as I have described, is in comparison, torment now.

Final thought; if God hates sinners, why did He come to die for them? Why would He not just let everyone perish? He so loved the world that He gave His life for the hope that some would come to know Him.

It is good to remain mindful of the wrath that awaits us if we do not accept Him as savior, but equally, once we have, we need to be mindful of the abundant life that awaits us when we accept Him as Lord.

I apologize to all but boG for the length of my last post. It is primarily addressed to him who will naturally have the most interest in reading the entire content.

To others, read as much as you like. I hope, however much you read, that you will find it helpful.

This message brings a good balance to both the love and wrath of God, the goodness and severity of the Lord.

Quote by Brengle:

"The truth lies between these extremes. There is mercy in God, but it is mingled with severity; there is wrath in God, but it is tempered with mercy."

Misrepresenting God
By Samuel Logan Brengle

I read recently of a speaker who preached on the mercy of God 'until it seemed there was nothing in God but mercy.' But I fear he misrepresented God. Such misrepresentation is easy, and to people who do not think deeply, and who do not want to take life seriously, it is pleasant, but it is unspeakably dangerous.

If we are to win souls and save our own, we must not distort the picture of God's character which we hold up to view. It is life eternal to know God and Jesus Christ whom He has sent (John xvii. 3); but it must be the true and holy God, as He is, and not some false god who conforms to our poor little warped human desires and opinions.

Some religious teachers misrepresent God by making Him utterly savage and cruel, and they gloat over unutterably horrid pictures of Hell, where they imagine God delighting in the most exquisite tortures of the damned, and thus men are embittered against God until they feel there is no hope of His mercy.

Others misrepresent God by making Him appear as a sort of goody-goody God, who fawns upon sinners with mawkish sympathy and looks upon worldlings and triflers and lukewarm professors with weak, sentimental, old-womanish pity. Nothing can be further from the truth concerning God. We find God Himself bitterly rebuking those who, living in sin, thought He did not disapprove their ways. He sets before them a list of their sins (Psalm 1. 17-20), and then says: 'These things hast thou done, and I kept silence; thou thoughtest that I was altogether such an one as thyself; but I will reprove thee, and set them in order before thine eyes. Now consider this, ye that forget God, lest I tear you in pieces, and there be none to deliver.' (vv. 21,22.)

The truth lies between these extremes. There is mercy in God, but it is mingled with severity; there is wrath in God, but it is tempered with mercy.

The great soul-winners from Bible times till now have recognized this; they have held an even balance between the goodness and the severity of God, because the Bible does so; and the Bible, of all the innumerable books written, is the only one which gives us an authoritative representation of God.

The book of nature reveals to us the goodness and the severity of God. Fire will not only bake our food, and bless us, but it will also burn us; water will not only quench our thirst and refresh us, but if we trifle with it, it will drown us; if we recognize God's ways of working in nature, and take heed and obey, we shall find nature's laws most kind and helpful; but if we neglect or refuse to obey we shall find them most terrible and destructive.

But if we want to know God in all the richness of His character, and all the fullness of His self-revelation, we must study the Bible and compare Scripture with Scripture.

The Bible tells us of God's unutterable love leading Him to seek sinners in mercy; but His righteousness requires of the sinner penitence, faith, separation from evil, and obedience to His will.

Various Bible descriptions show how God holds an even balance between His mercy and His judgments.

'Behold the goodness and severity of God,' writes Paul: 'on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in His goodness; otherwise,' he says (showing that God's goodness does not destroy His severity), 'thou also shalt be cut off.' We must beware! Then he adds a touch of tenderness -- making clear how even in His severity God waits to show mercy -- 'And they also,' though they have been cut off, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in, for God is able to graff them in again.' (Romans xi. 22, 23.)

Again Paul writes, 'I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God unto Salvation to every one that believeth..... For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, the just shall live by faith.' And then he adds, 'For the wrath of God is revealed from Heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who hold the truth in unrighteousness.' (Romans i. 16-18.)

And again he writes: 'Despisest thou the riches of His goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who will render to every man according to his deeds; to them who by patient continuance in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man that doeth evil,.....but glory, honor, and peace to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile, for there is no respect of persons with' God.' (Romans ii. 4- 11.)

The saving mercy of God revealed in the Scriptures is invariably set over against the wrath of God, as the great mountains are set over against the deep seas.

The writer to the Hebrews says of Jesus, 'He is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by Him' (Hebrews vii. 25): while Paul writes of some upon whom 'wrath is come to the uttermost.' (1 Thessalonians ii. 16.)

There is, then, an uttermost Salvation for all who 'trust and obey,' and an uttermost woe for all who go on in selfish unbelief and worldliness and sin. Truly 'God is not mocked,' and He is a God of judgment.

Again, we find Jesus keeping this even balance when He says that those who hear His sayings and do them are like those who build upon a rock, against which rain and floods and winds cannot prevail, while those who hear and do not obey are like those who build upon sand, which will be swept away by rain and floods and wind. (Matthew vii. 24-27.) And again, He says that the wicked shall 'go away into everlasting punishment; but the righteous into life eternal.' (Matthew xxv. 46.)

Again, He tells of the shut door at the marriage, with some on the inside with their Lord, and some on the outside, rejected and unknown; of the joy of their Lord into which good and faithful servants enter, and the outer darkness, into which the wicked and slothful are cast; of the great, fixed gulf which is impassable, with some on the right side in the bosom of comfort and security and peace, and some on the wrong side in the bitter woe of fierce remorse and torment.

We find John the Baptist faithful to this great truth. He cries out, 'He that believeth on the Son of God hath everlasting life; and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on Him.' (John iii. 36.)

Likewise all through the Old Testament this even balance is maintained. 'Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before Mine eyes; cease to do evil, learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord; though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land; but' and here is the unfailing alternative -- 'but if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured by the sword.' (Isaiah i. 16-20.)

These Bible word-pictures show us that no one word, not even the sweet word 'mercy,' will sum up the rich and manifold character of God. The Bible says, 'God is love,' but it also says 'Our God is a consuming fire.'

To penitent hearts who trust in Jesus, God will be found to be rich in mercy; but He will defend the moral and spiritual order of His universe by uttermost penalties against those who go on proudly, careless, or wickedly in their own ways.

When Dr. Johnson lay dying he was much concerned about his soul. A friend said to him : 'Sir, you seem to forget the merits of the Redeemer.' 'No,' replied Dr. Johnson, 'I do not forget the merits of the Redeemer, but I remember that He said that He would place some on His right hand, and some on His left.'

Our only hope is in the wounds of Jesus, and the shelter of His Blood. There, and only there, shall we find mercy, since we have sinned; but there mercy is boundless and free. Hallelujah!

Perhaps it is useful to define God's love for the wicked. He can love them through mercy, compassion and pity. That kind of love is very supportable in Scripture. The difficulty I think people have in this area is that they define love in their own way. I think one can be tempted to assume that the Father's love of His son and of the believer is the same love as he has for the wicked and that just can't be substantiated in Scripture. The trap for the unwary is bring their own definitions to the Scriptures instead of the ones God uses.

If we consider a balanced view of God to be that he is angry with sinners for their rebelliousness, and yet loves them and wants them to repent and be saved, then an important question is, how does such a view apply to our daily lives ? One area which it applies to, is in our approach to evangelism.

When we examine some of the well known evangelists, both of the past and of the present, I can think of some of them which I believe emphasized God's love too much and some which overemphasized his wrath. However many, especially in days gone by, struck a fairly balanced presentation of God's character in their evangelism.

Since the Bible is our guidebook for living and provides us with the wisdom we need for "all things that pertain to life and godliness", it seems to me that by examining the manner in which the gospel was presented by Christ (in the Gospels) and by the apostles (eg in Acts), this should give us the best insight into how God wants us to present His character to lost sinners, in our presentation of the plan of salvation to them.

So, when we examine the Gospels and the Acts of the Apostles, what conclusions can be drawn about how the gospel was presented ?

In Jesus,
John

Definitely we need God to escape His wrath, but more we need Him that we might escape the power and stronghold of sin. Even that is a little bit secondary in light of simply knowing Him.

I have been specifically mulling this point over testing it Scripture against Scripture. And I would make a correction to this statement, if I may.

"we need God to escape His wrath, but more we need ..."

I don't believe there is anything "more" than this, in this regards concerning the unregenerate. Those who are dead in their sins are not commanded to put to death the deeds of the flesh or abstain from the world or resist the devil or put on the full armor of God or any such Christian virtue of faith. They are commanded each and everyone to "repent and believe" and to "flee from the wrath to come." I make this point particulary because it is the fear of the Lord that is the beginning of wisdom by the word of God to make one wise unto salvation by faith in Christ Jesus.

The focus then is: fear God who shall cast death, hell, satan, and every unrepentant sinner into the lake of fire. That is to say, the focus of the problem is not necessarily "sin" but the God who hates sin and those who sin. My attempt at this is to put the focus on who God is, first and foremost, before considering who we are in His sight.

You first need a savior that you might have life; escaping His wrath is secondary. Just as knowing God is eternal life now, not knowing Him, as I have described, is in comparison, torment now.

Having Jesus as Savior is the only way to escape God's wrath (these are one and the same). If we have believed on Him then we have passed from judgment unto mercy and if we have truly entered into His mercy then we have received the promise and hope of eternal life. Thus, escaping His wrath is not secondary, but to escape His wrath is to enter into His life by the forgiveness of sins.

Final thought; if God hates sinners, why did He come to die for them? Why would He not just let everyone perish? He so loved the world that He gave His life for the hope that some would come to know Him.

This very question is the purpose of this thread. Laboring in the word of God with fearfulness and trembling in the sight of God to bring forth wisdom refined in the fire. That we might know Him through His word and rightly balance His love and hate towards us without shame of the consequences to our own preconceived ideas.

It is good to remain mindful of the wrath that awaits us if we do not accept Him as savior, but equally, once we have, we need to be mindful of the abundant life that awaits us when we accept Him as Lord.

We must be mindful because not only is there wrath to come but His wrath already abides upon the ungodly ([b]John 3:36[/b]) for they are already condemned by God([b]John 3:18[/b]). This is why this doctrine is so necessary to our evangelism because we must be aware of the condition of the world before a Holy God and be able to give them wisdom unto salvation by faith in Jesus Christ -- as Paul said in his letter to Philemon, "That the communication of your faith may become effectual by the acknowledging of every good thing which is in you in Christ Jesus." We must be studied and consumed by the knowledge of every good thing which is in us in Christ Jesus our Lord if we are to have unction in the proclamation of the Gospel.

When we examine some of the well known evangelists, both of the past and of the present, I can think of some of them which I believe emphasized God's love too much and some which overemphasized his wrath.

This is an important consideration because as A.W. Tozer has said in one sermon, [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=2310]The Faithfulness of God[/url], "grace has been so preached that is was said of a certain great english preacher, that he preached grace in such a manner as to lower the moral standards of England."

And likewise, we might preach the wrath of God in such a manner as to lose all compassion and sympathy one for another and thereby despise the Law of Christ.

If we consider a balanced view of God to be that he is angry with sinners for their rebelliousness, and yet loves them and wants them to repent and be saved, then an important question is, how does such a view apply to our daily lives ?

Excellent question, all of these considerations about the doctrine of God are useless if we cannot reform ourselves to its practical application in our own lives.

I have been wondering to myself, "bless your enemies." Do I have any enemies? There is the "world, the flesh, and the devil" but honestly these are somewhat general and vague. And I thought, "I hate the Beatles. I hate, hate, the Beatles." This might sound irrelevant or missing the point but there is a great deal to learn from this hatred I have for the Beatles.

Why do I hate the band, the Beatles? Because those guys with their handsome young smiling faces and rockin' sound raped the minds of the world, as Ravenhill would say,
"like a man might rape a woman's body." Singing about "peace" and "love" and whatnot while behind the scenes promoting Transcendental Meditation and Eastern Mysticism and promoting the doctrines of Allister Crowley and Anton Levey (the author of the Satanic Bible) with their "Do what thou wilt" (do what you want -- whatever works for you) catch phrases. It angers me! I hate the Beatles. (PS. if you have never seen the documentary "They Sold Their Souls for Rock n Roll" I strongly suggest you do so, check it out on googlevideo).

I truly considered this before the Lord. And I was taken to remember Lamentations. The comparison between lamenting for righteousness and hatred for sin -- the contrast astounds me.

In Lamentations, Jeremiah bitterly cries out because the paths of righteousness are desolate, the roads of Zion are empty, the appointed feasts are despised, the strength of Israel is departed from their midsts! And Jeremiah petitions the Lord with fervency and passion and tears and He cries out with specific details and understanding of the poverty of God's people. And because Jeremiah's soul was grieved before the Lord he knew how to pray and what he must do and say to the children of Israel.

So in this similar way, I hate the Beatles and it grieves me to think of what they did and to see the fruits of their labors taking the hearts and minds of the world into captivity to slavery -- slavery to death. And because I hate them my soul is stirred within me (like Paul in Athens behold the many idols) and it moves me to pray with fervency and with understanding for specific petitions, seeing the works of the devil exposed by the Light of the Truth. In this hate against these sins I can be on guard to keep myself from partaking in their idolatry and warn others from the end of their ways and stand opposed to this demonic culture. The end of this being twofold 1) to protect the church from conforming to the world, and 2) to preach the Gospel without shame in exposing the deeds of the world, that they are evil, and the salvation of Jesus Christ unto the sound conversion of souls.

This is obviously not a full perspective and application of a "perfect hatred" ([b]Psalm 139[/b]) but I believe it should help to get some idea to all of you what I am getting at.

A.W. Tozer on a well-balanced view of God:

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=2310]The Faithfulness of God by A.W. Tozer[/url]

In this sermon A.W Tozer rebukes the magnification of one aspect of God to the diminishing of another. The following is an excerpt from the sermon:

1) "... if God is 'all Justice' then we have a God of Terror and we flee from Him in great fright. There was a time when the church swung over to 'hell and judgment and sin' and all that. And, we rather tremble when we think of how the church went through this period, when about all she talked about was the justice of God. And so God was looked upon as a tyrant and the universe was a kind of a totalitarian state, with God at the top ruling with a rod of iron. But if we think only of the justice of God, that's the concept we'll have.

2) "And, over on the other side is a reaction from that; came the time, when we only thought about God as being 'Love,' God is love is our main text now and so we have not God the Terror but we have a sentimental spineless God, the God of the Christian Scientists (Universalism). God is love and love is God and all is love and all is God and God is all and all is God. Pretty soon we haven't got a thing left but a lot of 'spun-candy' (cotton candy?) that you buy at the circuses. That's all we have is sweetness and nothing but sweetness because you've magnified the love of God without remembering that God is just.

3) "Or, if we make God 'All Good' then we have the weak sentimentalist [God] of the modernist and the liberal. The God of the liberalist and the modernist is not the God of the bible because in order to get the God they get they have to get rid of most everything that God did in the Old Testament. God couldn't make the sun stand still, He couldn't send fire on Sodom and Gomorrah; they say that was just 'nature.' And, God couldn't send a flood upon the ungodly; they say that's just an overflow -- we just had a little flood there, you know [...] So in order to make room for God that's nothing but 'good' -- just stands up there or sits up there in a great glob of goodness. They (the modernists and liberals) had to get rid of most everything that God ever did by way of justice.

4) "And then if we make Him all the 'God of grace and nothing else', and fundamentalism over the past 50 years has made God practically a God of 'grace and nothing else'. And, so we have a God who cannot see moral distinctions. And, because God cannot see moral distinctions, why, His church has been unable to see moral distinctions! And, instead of a separated holy church we have a church that's so geared into the world you can't tell one from the other! It's because grace has been so preached, that is was said of a certain great english preacher, that he preached grace in such a manner as to lower the moral standards of England. It's entirely possible to preach grace in the church until we become as arrogant and brazen as can be! Forgetting that grace is ONE of the attributes of God but not all.

5) "Forgetting that while God is a God of grace He is also a God of justice and a God of holiness and a God of truth! Well, God will always be true to His creatures because He's a faithful God. Faithlessness is one of the greatest sources of heartache and misery in all the world and God will never be faithless, He cannot be." (His faithfulness means He never changes but always remains perfectly the same.)

I think this thread is closing in on agreeable middle ground. boG and MJones have considered the problem from two different angles. The problem is the lack of respect for a holy God and the holy living He desires we live.

Considering where boG lives, it makes sense that he would be a little more sensitive to the wrath that will be displayed against such blatant sin.

I on the other hand, considering where I live, am more sensitive to the fact that there are so many in church who live too much like the world.

I can speak more from my perspective as boG has spoken more from his. My perspective comes from 30 years of trying to please God, but I have to admit, no matter how hard I tried, I could not live perfect before Him.

One of the reactions to failure is more resolve not to fail. Part of that resolve, in addition to all the personal things you do to guard against future failures, is to be more vocal against the sin that distracted you. Somehow we feel it proves to God how serious we are. But in 30 years of effort, I say you cannot of your own will and determination, live holy before God.

A few years ago when I came to the end of myself, God stirred me to seek Him as I never had before. After a couple of years of this seeking, it pleased Him to hasten the seeking process by allowing a storm to blow through my life. It became a refining fire that at first burned away impurities. But for two years, this fire continues to burn. Where once it burned away sin, now it burns Him in.

At first I sought relief. But as time went on, He challenged me to trust that He would sustain. In this process of seeking and staying close to Him, I realized I had found Him as never before. The closer I got to Him, the more of Him I wanted. I began to notice as I was full of Him, the distractions of sin were no longer distractions. There was no capacity for sin.

It is in that light that I put so much emphasis on knowing Him. When you know Him personally to this extent, you become most aware of His love. It is the only thing in all my Christian walk that has empowered me against the stronghold of sin. Where the fear of wrath never could, His love did.

Though there is the need of being aware of both the wrath and the love of God, from a personal point of view, in the midst of a fire that continues to refine, I am overwhelmed by a sense of His love more so than His wrath. Personally, because of this experience, I lean more toward the love of God as the most compelling reason to give our lives to Him, while at the same time, at least aware of the wrath that awaits those who do not.

Thank you for your responses MJones, I honestly enjoy them and I find a kindred beauty in all of your words that I share in my own heart.

Where once it burned away sin, now it burns Him in. [...] The closer I got to Him, the more of Him I wanted. I began to notice as I was full of Him, the distractions of sin were no longer distractions. There was no capacity for sin.

I understand this sentiment, I truly do. But we must never relent in our admonitions to remember, "I am crucified with Christ, [b]yet I live[/b]." That is why we are commended to "reckon ourselves dead to sin" (as opposed to actually being dead to sin) and thereby to stand on the blood of the Lamb and the word of our testimony, not loving our lives even when faced with death, because we are yet standing upon the hope of our salvation that is to come.

"Where once it burned away sin, now it burns Him in."

The ministry of the Holy Spirit, so long as we live in the world, shall continually convict us of sin and righteousness and judgment. This is not a progession: first you begin by getting sin out of your life and then you move on to the next thing. If we look again at this ministry of the Holy Spirit we see that "conviction of sin" is who we are, "conviction of righteousness" is who He is, and "conviction of judgment" puts the two together and this is to be the standard of measure by which we judge all things.

And again, one of the greatest delusions by which we may be uprooted in our faith is the thinking that because we are seeking eternal life in the Face of Christ that we have "no capacity for sin". Over and over we read in the account of our forerunners, Israel, that they forgot the Lord their God -- that is, they forgot that He delivered them from their captivity -- and therefore sinned greatly in His sight by returning to their idolatry, etc. [b]2 Peter 1:9[/b] says, "For he who lacks these qualities (conforming to the image of Christ) is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins." That is to say, if we do not recognize that the closer we draw to God the greater the potential to sin against Him becomes. These are standing against 1) the devil: he shall be threatened and make a point to focus on these 2) the world: they shall be offended by us because we do not join them in their folly and therefore they shall seek to shame us 3) our flesh: "he who suffers in the flesh has ceased from sin," so these shall learn the wickedness of their very hearts who put to death the lusts of their flesh by faith in Him, unlike those who have never withstood temptation for more than a minute or two. And all of this in the light of His precious promises and His loving kindness and His tender mercies, truly our Lord is wounded in the house of His friends. My point, if we "say we have no sin" or imply "that we can no longer sin" (before the soon coming Day) then we deny the commands to be on guard against sin and remain vigilant.

It is the only thing in all my Christian walk that has empowered me against the stronghold of sin. Where the fear of wrath never could, His love did.

The fear of a Father's chastisement is one, but is not the grieving of a Father's love just as shaming to a son and daughter?

Though there is the need of being aware of both the wrath and the love of God, from a personal point of view, in the midst of a fire that continues to refine, I am overwhelmed by a sense of His love more so than His wrath. Personally, because of this experience, I lean more toward the love of God as the most compelling reason to give our lives to Him, while at the same time, at least aware of the wrath that awaits those who do not.

I will allow my brother to answer with his response, as taken from elsewhere,

"the OVERWHELMING message both of the Bible and of Christians at all times has been the LOVE of God."

"I agree that it is the love of God, in the face of Christ Jesus, that is the pinnacle, overwhelming message of Christianity that no other religion even comes close to. But, if you read the bible in chunks, I wouldn't necessarily say that the 'overwhelming' message would be the love of God (as in quantity). As far as quantity goes, I feel more of a healthy balance of both the justice of God, and His displeasure with sin & sinners, with on the other hand His love, and Him being slow to anger, merciful on their transgessions and compassionate, throughout the bible. It seems to be only in the light of the fear of God, that the love of God is at all overwhelming. Reiterated in a paraphrased verse, (Pro. 9:10) the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, and on that does further knowledge of the Holy One become overwhelming understanding (ie. grace)."

I have to say that at first I chose not to reply to this thread for several reasons. It seemed a little radical, I had never zeroed in on that subject and it was far from what I was curently experiencing.

But, something drew me to it. Though I don't intend to launch a study into the subject, I will at least now have the subject in mind as I read. I do not regret at all the participation in the discussion. At first I wondered if it was not the 'useless arguments' that we are warned to avoid, but good has come out of it. I am glad, if for no other reason, to see that there is a kindred spirit as you pointed out. We have approached the same burden from different ends.

It is rare to find people who have an appreciaton for the deaper things of God and the capacity to discuss them. That is the one thing I have enjoyed about this forum. Though I do not know anyone personally, I have been able to communicate with those, like yourself, who are like minded.

I am ready to let the topic rest, but look forward to conversing about other topics. I started a thread the other day, 'your ministry', in an attempt to get some of us who obviously know and walk with God, to tell of how He has used the different gifts He has given us to build His church. I have come to enjoy and have had many opportunity's given to talk with people one on one. It is almost as if I am so full of Him, that He simply comes out in conversations that I have. I have developed a passion for writing. Again, even in that I find one on one oportunities as I enjoy writing letters and emails. It is low key, but He is using it. It is cool.

So far, I don't think anyone has picked up on what I was after. I thought it would be good for many to see the different ways God is using those who walk with Him. If you feel so led, I would feel honored if you would be the first to give a brief discription of 'your ministry'. It is in General Topics in case it interests you. Don't worry if it does not.

One final point of clarification on the original purpose of this thread.

boG wrote:

My point, if we "say we have no sin" or imply "that we can no longer sin" (before the soon coming Day) then we deny the commands to be on guard against sin and remain vigilant.

I try to choose my words carefully, but to claim I have 'no capcity to sin', was a poor choice of words. Maybe in comparison to the struggle that was present at times before, it could be viewed as not having a capacity. But it would be more correct to say that the capacity for sin, or maybe even more acurate to say the lure of sin, has been greatly diminished. Without a doubt, sin has lost its pull. I think you quoted part of the verse that states, he who sufferred in the flesh is done with sin. (I am going from memory, I hope it is close) I have suffered a fiery trial. It has burned away sin and continues to burn Him in.

My struggle is not with the pleasures of sin, it is more to maintain my focus on God and the truths He has given me to believe, as satan does his best to distract, disceive and discourage. Without a doubt, I have been challenged to trust. It requires an ever so close walk with God.

It seemed a little radical

:-P I must admit that was somewhat the point!
It is encouraging to hear that you have been benefitted by this discussion, God bless brother.

Someone sent me this quote in a message,

Spurgeon said this, "The love of God therefore existed before there was any good thing in man, and if you tell me that God loved men because of the foresight of some good thing in them, I again reply to that, that the same thing cannot be both cause and effect. Now it is
quite certain that any virtue which there may be in any man is the result of God’s grace. Now if it be the result of grace it cannot be the cause of grace. It is utterly impossible that an effect should have existed before a cause; but God’s love existed before man’s goodness, therefore that goodness cannot be a cause."

This is a question of "virtue" is it not? I ask, is man being created in the image and likeness of God considered a moral quality?

This is a question of "virtue" is it not? I ask, is man being created in the image and likeness of God considered a moral quality?

It's not a moral quality to be born a transgressor from the womb and enslaved to sin. There are no moral qualities (from a pure heart) in unregenerate man.

The Goodness That Modern Preachers Speak of in The Unregenerate is filthy in the sight of God.

UTTERLY SINFUL - The unregenerate only do evil and only do sin with their heart
Rom 3:10-18
Heb 11:6
Rom 14:23
OUTWARD GOODNESS - The natural man may show outward acts of goodness. However, these are not acts of love towards God. Therefore these acts are sinful because of the intentions of the heart.
ATTENDING TO THE WORD OF GOD
Act 17:18-21
HOSPITALITY
Act 28:2
Act 28:7
Act 28:10
FOLLOWING AFTER THEIR OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS
Mt 23:27-28
Lk 11:39-44
Lk 16:15
Lk 18:9-12
Rom 9:31
Rom 10:2-3

UNIVERSAL CONDEMNATION - by the offense of Adam judgment came upon all men to condemnation
Rom 5:12
Rom 5:14
EVIL NATURE - The unregenerate have an evil nature and they have need of a new nature
Jn 3:3
Jn 3:6-7
Jn 5:37-38
Rom 7:5
EVIL NATURE FROM THE WOMB
Rom 3:9
Rom 8:5
Rom 8:9
Rom 9:8
CHILDREN OF THE DEVIL
Jn 8:44
Act 13:10
EVIL HEART - The unregenerate have an evil heart and they have need of a new heart
Mt 12:34-35
Mt 13:13-15
Mk 7:21-23
Jn 2:25
Act 28:26-27
SPIRITUAL BLINDNESS
Jn 1:5
Jn 1:10
EXAMPLES OF AN EVIL HEART
UNWILLING TO COME TO CHRIST
Mt 22:3
SELF JUSTIFICATION AGAINST CHRIST
Lk 10:29
UNWILLING TO BRING OTHERS TO CHRIST
Lk 13:34
HATRED TOWARDS THE REIGN OF CHRIST
Lk 19:14
Lk 19:27
UNWILLING TO BELIEVE ON CHRIST
Lk 22:67-68
DESIRING TO MURDER CHRIST
Lk 23:25
UNWILLING TO RECEIVE CHRIST
Jn 1:11
Jn 3:11
MORE EXAMPLES
Jn 3:19-20
Jn 5:40-44
Jn 12:43
Jn 15:24
Jn 18:39-40
Act 7:39
Act 7:51
Act 22:18
BONDAGE
Jn 3:32
Jn 8:34
Act 8:23
FREE FROM RIGHTEOUSNESS
Rom 6:20
INABILITY - The unregenerate have an inability to do anything good with their nature and heart (Notice the words "able, can, cannot, could not")
Lk 13:24
Jn 6:44
Jn 6:65
Jn 8:14-15
Jn 8:21-23
Jn 8:43-47
Jn 12:38-40
Jn 14:17
Jn 15:5
Rom 8:7-8

HOPELESSNESS IN MAN AND HOPEFULNESS IN GOD - Scriptures that box sinners up to the mercy of God and thus leaving them no hope or confidence in their evil heart. Scriptures that lead sinners to a healthy dispair, so that they might set their hope in God and not in themselves
Mt 23:31-33
Jn 1:12-13
Jn 6:63
Jn 8:36
Jn 10:26-27

I posted a question to your quote of Spurgeon on the thread, I ask if you would please respond and make your concerns known so that if there is any danger I have not been careful to observe that you might urge caution to others to protect us all from foul doctrines. Thanks for the caution.

There is a danger that i would like to bring up and address in this thread. It is the danger of leaving souls with the impression that God's love toward us is primarily conditioned on our love or Faith towards Him.

The primary condition of God's Eternal love towards His Elect is His finished work at the cross.

God does not love you because any special or admirable thing in you. God loves you for His own name sake.

It is true that God does love the graces in His bride. He loves her new heart, her faith in Him, Her love for Him, her comeliness, and purity of heart. However, It was the love of God that wrought these graces in her through His finished work at the cross. Therefore, we must not conclude that God eternally loves us, primarily because of anything we did or will ever do.

The reason why I place the word "eternal" next to God's love... is because that is the kind of love that He has towards His elect. It is false to say that God loves everyone universally with an eternal love. Furthermore, the scriptures do not teach that God's love for His bride is conditioned upon her works, will, or running.

The only condition is the Victorious work of Writing our names in Heaven (Sovereign Election) that the Father has finished for Her, the work of eternal blood redemption(Justification) that the Son has accomplished for Her, and the work of Regeneration(Sanctification) that the Spirit has accomplished for Her.

I would caution anyone who says that, "God's love is conditional"... to be specific on what that condition is. (lest anyone think that it was there own goodness or merit that caused God to love them eternally)

Blessings to the glory of God! -Abraham

Edit: Sentance structure and grammar correction

As usual, when things like this come up, we who have the status of 'not too shy to talk' and above enjoy weighing in. I think God may even enjoy what His kids have to say.

But again, as usual, once the dust settles and all are quiet, God enjoys speaking. This thought came to me this morning while I was getting ready for the day.

'While we were yet sinners, He died for us.' It seemed His 2 cents toward the issue.

Abe_Juliot, I didn't so much think of this as addressing your point, but I do think it somewhat relates. I'll include the entire verse.

Romans 5:6-8
You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man, some might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates His own love for us in this: While we were yet still sinners, Christ died for us.