Do you serve a Frustrated Trinity?

This is The Frustrated Trinity

The Father Elects (before the foundation of the world) a specific amount of People from every Nation that He knows will persevere unto the end (Rev 5:9). The Father does this with the intention and purpose of Saving His Elect and them only. Hallelujah! The Father succeeds in his purpose and intention.

The Father attempts to save this amount:

*_________________________*

The Son dies for every single individual soul universally when He suffered the wrath of God for our sins at the cross. The Son intercedes and prays for every single man universally. The Son does this with the intention and purpose of saving every single soul universally that ever lived. Tragically, the Son fails in accomplishing what He intended and purposed to do through His death. Many of the Son's prayers did not avail to what He intended. The Son tried. But, he could not cause His own prayers to be accomplished. Let us remember that Jesus himself said, "What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them."

The Son attempts to save this amount, but he fails:
*________________________________________________*

The Spirit Calls and tries to regenerate as many people as He can. However, He is only able to regenerate those whom the Father elected. But, He still wants to save more than the Father Elected... So he tries to regenerate more, But tragically He fails. He succeeds in at least trying to save more than the Father Elects. But, He fails in Regenerating as many as the Son Died for. [for clarification] The Spirit fails in regenerating more than the Father elected and He fails in regenerating as many as the Son died for.

The Spirit Succeeds in His attempts to at least try and save this amount:

*_____________________________________*

As you can imagine, this is a frustrated trinity. The Father is telling the Son and the Spirit, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy". The Son is telling the Father, "Please O please Father, hear my prayer and save more than you elected. Please save them all! Please forgive more than you elected." The Spirit is telling the Son, "I'll try to save all of them. But, I just can't get as many people as i need to preach the gospel to every creature. I'll try to save those who hear the gospel. But, I just can't regenerate them unless they give me permission."

This is the frustrated trinity.

To correct all from this error, I shall first present to you a song by Shai Linne.

Mission Accomplished written by shai linne

Verse 1

Here’s a controversial subject that tends to divide

For years it’s had Christians lining up on both sides

By God’s grace, I’ll address this without pride

The question concerns those for whom Christ died

Was He trying to save everybody worldwide?

Was He trying to make the entire world His Bride?

Does man’s unbelief keep the Savior’s hands tied?

Biblically, each of these must be denied

It’s true, Jesus gave up His life for His Bride

But His Bride is the elect, to whom His death is applied

If on judgment day, you see that you can’t hide

And because of your sin, God’s wrath on you abides

And hell is the place you eternally reside

That means your wrath from God hasn’t been satisfied

But we believe His mission was accomplished when He died

But how the cross relates to those in hell?

Well, they be saying:

Lord knows He tried (8x)

Verse 2

Father, Son and Spirit: three and yet one

Working as a unit to get things done

Our salvation began in eternity past

God certainly has to bring all His purpose to pass

A triune, eternal bond no one could ever sever

When it comes to the church, peep how they work together

The Father foreknew first, the Son came to earth

To die- the Holy Spirit gives the new birth

The Father elects them, the Son pays their debt and protects them

The Spirit is the One who resurrects them

The Father chooses them, the Son gets bruised for them

The Spirit renews them and produces fruit in them

Everybody’s not elect, the Father decides

And it’s only the elect in whom the Spirit resides

The Father and the Spirit- completely unified

But when it comes to Christ and those in hell?

Well, they be saying:

Lord knows He tried (8x)

Verse 3

My third and final verse- here’s the situation

Just a couple more things for your consideration

If saving everybody was why Christ came in history

With so many in hell, we’d have to say He failed miserably

So many think He only came to make it possible

Let’s follow this solution to a conclusion that’s logical

What about those who were already in the grave?

The Old Testament wicked- condemned as depraved

Did He die for them? C’mon, behave

But worst of all, you’re saying the cross by itself doesn’t save

That we must do something to give the cross its power

That means, at the end of the day, the glory’s ours

That man-centered thinking is not recommended

The cross will save all for whom it was intended

Because for the elect, God’s wrath was satisfied

But still, when it comes to those in hell

Well, they be saying:

Lord knows He tried (8x)

Shai Linne's blog and Myspace page:
http://lyricaltheology.blogspot.com/
http://www.myspace.com/shailinne
(I added this next link as a fourth edit addition for your edification)
Shai Linne on MML
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPZlzDTdSsE

I further encourage you to study the scriptures. Here are some scripture lists for you on the biblical trinity.

http://www.eschatology.com/predestination.html
http://www.eschatology.com/death.html
http://www.eschatology.com/husband.html

Predestination and Calling - Spurgeon
http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0241.htm

Doctrines of Grace – Categorized Scripture List
http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/gracelist.html

For anyone one desire to study these matters by dealing with text that someone might use to support the frustrated trinity, here is an excellent resource by John Gill.

The Cause of God and Truth by John Gill
http://www.lgmarshall.org/Gill/gilltitlepage.htm

Side Note: If any one denies that election and predestination are in the bible, you are denying the bible. All Christians believe that these doctrines are in the bible. However, there is a disagreement on How these truths should be taught.

Blessings to the glory of God!
-Abraham

EDIT: Spell check and sentence structure corrections

EDIT ADDITIONS:

I want you to be edified by Truth

1. I have found great confidence to pray for souls when I look to my Lord who succeeds in His prayers. I have found great discouragement to prayer for souls when I look to a frustrated and false jesus that cannot accomplish the prayers that he prays.

2. I have found great joy in God to walk in love and holiness when I meditate on the Eternal Electing Love of the Father. By the mercies of God, I present my body as a living sacrifice to Him. I found great confidence in God concerning my missionary endeavors. For I serve the God of the bible who promises that He will save many sinners out of every kindred, tongue, people, and nation. I don't just hope He will save people in a specific nation. I know that he will. And since by the grace of God I'm not loveless and careless towards the lost, I seek to save them as my savior does with my confidence in the power of God to bring in a people from every nation. Hallelujah!!!

3. I have found great peace in trusting in the Spirits power to mercifully and powerfully regenerate whomsoever He wills.

(Edit addition 3 - placed here to add to the edification section)
4. When I held my first born baby Isaac in my arms and kissed him goodbye, I would not have found peace that surpasses understanding and I would not have worshiped the Lord in that hour, unless I had known the Sovereign God of the Bible who is Sovereign over all things. My son died almost 4 weeks ago and I wont let anyone discourage me that God was not Sovereign over it. I rejoice that God has ordained this trail in my life to conform me into His image and to manifest His Son in me. He is not a frustrated God who cannot accomplish His purposes. "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." (Romans 8:28-30)

Ashley and I were given the blessing to hold Isaac and Worship the Lord for His Sovereign goodness towards us. We trust that He ordained this to conform us to His image.

This moment has been brought to me by the cross of Christ, by the love of Christ, and by the goodness of Christ. Let us rejoice and be glad in it! Brothers and sisters, I pray that the Lord may take us deeper into the waters of His grace. There is Peace in Christ that surpasses understanding of which I have found myself hungering after even more as a result of this event in our lives.

Please read this portion of the sermon by John Piper that God has used to strengthen me in this trial:

"I met a young woman from India a few years ago who thanked me for the truth she had heard in something I had said and asked if she could write to me. When she was born a treatable disease was misdiagnosed, and she was paralyzed. By age 14 she had had 21 surgeries and was cruelly treated by other children calling her "crippled." She became a Christian in high school. She married, had four miscarriages, and her second child died in her husband's arms at two months. She closed the letter,

I have read many books on suffering, but they are often so man-centered and... nullify, or at least diminish the glory, majesty and sovereignty of God. It is radical thinking to say that God wills and ordains our suffering and not just passively allows it, hoping to make the best of it for us. As I have grown in my walk, I can see that nothing in this world happens apart from the sovereign will of God."

EDIT ADDITIONS 2:

For anyone who desires to search the scriptures concerning God's Sovereign Grace, here are some links to helpful resources for you.

Steven Lawson's book and Audio series on the Foundation of Grace will take you on a journey through the entire Bible. This one is the best resource, because our foundation needs to be in the word of God.

[url=http://abrahamjuliot.blogspot.com/2008/11/foundations-of-grace-long-line-of-godly.html]Foundations of Grace: A Long Line of Godly Men by Steven Lawson[/url]

You can watch a short video of Steven Lawson about his book. He talks about his book, Foundations of Grace, and why he decided to write it.
[url=http://www.ligonier.org/media_player.php?tabID=1&id=005]Watch the Interview[/url]

[url=http://abrahamjuliot.blogspot.com/2008/07/sermon-series-on-doctrines-of-grace.html]
Sermon Series on The Doctrines of Grace[/url]

I had not heard of a "frustrated trinity"
before. Not quite sure what you mean by
this post.

The God I serve directs and orders all things
after the counsel of His truth. The God I
serve reigns over death, hell, sin, and the
world. His will is always accomplished.

His Son gave His all, His life as an offering
and sacrifice that satisfies God fully by His
obedience and righteousness. When He cried out
"It is finished" from the cross, He knew our
salvation and redemption was secured and
His mission was fulfilled!!

My purpose for posting this, is for the cause of God and His truth. It's a crime to not correct our brothers and sisters from error.

The God I serve directs and orders all things after the counsel of His truth. The God I serve reigns over death, hell, sin, and the word. His will is always accomplished. His Son gave His all, His life as an ofering and sacrifice that satisfies God fully by His obedience and righteousness. When He cried out "It is finished" from the cross, He knew our salvation and redemption was secured and His mission was fulfilled!!

Amen.

Do you serve a Frustrated Trinity?

Abe_Juliot wrote:
This is The Frustrated Trinity

But still, when it comes to those in hell

Well, they be saying:

Lord knows He tried (8x)

Brother all those in hell will not be saying anything like this, because the only reason why they would be there is because they rejected the grace of God in Christ Jesus. What the 1st Adam lost, the second man from heaven regained for us. We either believe God or we don’t. God does not force anyone to believe and neither does he force anyone not to believe.

I must say this reasoning you have posted does not edify God nor his creation.

God does not force anyone to believe and neither does he force anyone not to believe.

I would agree to not say that God forces. However, He does cause. The word force is void of any reference to mercy and providence.

He does Cause things to come to pass.

Spurgeon Said this,

When I was coming to Christ, I thought I was doing it all myself, and though I sought the Lord earnestly, I had no idea the Lord was seeking me. I do not think the young convert is at first aware of this. I can recall the very day and hour when first I received those truths in my own soul - when they were as John Bunyan says, burnt into my heart as with a hot iron; and I can recollect how I felt that I had grown all of a sudden from a babe into a man - that I had made progress in scriptural knowledge, through having found, once for all, the clue to the truth of God ... I saw that God was at the bottom of it all, and that He was the Author of my faith, and so the whole doctrine of grace opened up to me, and from that doctrine I have not departed to this day, and I desire to make this my constant confession, I ascribe my change wholly to God. (Charles Spurgeon, Autobiography: 1, The Early Years, Banner of Truth, pp. 164-165).

We declare on scriptural authority that the human will is so desperately set on mischief, so depraved, so inclined to everything that is evil, and so disinclined to everything that is good, that without the powerful, supernatural, irresistible influence of the Holy Spirit, no human will ever be constrained toward Christ. (Charles Spurgeon, Sermons, Vol. 4, p.139).

I do not come into this pulpit hoping that perhaps somebody will of his own free will return to Christ. My hope lies in another quarter. I hope that my Master will lay hold of some of them and say, "You are mine, and you shall be mine. I claim you for myself." My hope arises from the freeness of grace, and not from the freedom of the will.

I believe that Christ came into the world not to put men into a salvable state, but into a saved state. Not to put them where they could save themselves, but to do the work in them and for them, from first to last. If I did not believe that there was might going forth with the word of Jesus which makes men willing, and which turns them from the error of their ways by the mighty, overwhelming, constraining force of divine influence, I should cease to glory in the cross of Christ. (C.H. Spurgeon, Sermons, Vol. 3, p. 34).

A man is not saved against his will, but he is made willing by the operation of the Holy Ghost. A mighty grace which he does not wish to resist enters into the man, disarms him, makes a new creature of him, and he is saved. (C.H. Spurgeon, Sermons, Vol. 10, p. 309).

I question whether we have preached the whole counsel of God, unless predestination with all its solemnity and sureness be continually declared. (Charles Spurgeon, Sermons, Vol. 6, p. 26).

I must say this reasoning you have posted does not edify God nor his creation.

The question should not be does this edify everyone. For when you begin to exalt the God of the bible, some of the most good looking carnal church members will cry out against you and say, "That's not my God, I don't serve Him!"

Not everyone is edified by truth.

The question should be, is this biblical and does it glorify the God of the bible.

Truth will edify us if we are humble before our God.

You should be edified by the truth that God is not frustrated.

1. I have found great confidence to pray for souls when I look to my Lord who succeeds in His prayers. I have found great discouragement to prayer for souls when I look to a frustrated and false jesus that cannot accomplish the prayers that he prays.

2. I have found great joy in God to walk in love and holiness when I meditate on the Eternal Electing Love of the Father. By the mercies of God, I present my body as a living sacrifice to Him. I found great confidence in God concerning my missionary endeavors. For I serve the God of the bible who promises that He will save many sinners out of every kindred, tongue, people, and nation. I don't just hope He will save people in a specific nation. I know that he will. And since by the grace of God I'm not loveless and careless towards the lost, I seek to save them as my savior does with my confidence in the power of God to bring in a people from every nation. Hallelujah!!!

3. I have found great peace in trusting in the Spirits power to mercifully and powerfully regenerate whomsoever He wills.

Edit: spell check

Brother all those in hell will not be saying anything like this, because the only reason why they would be there is because they rejected the grace of God in Christ Jesus.

Their sin is the primary cause of them being in hell. However, God justly chose to not have mercy on them and He graciously chose to have mercy on sinners by granting us a new heart, a new will, with godly affections, and Faith in the finished work of Christ. However, many sinners have a false understanding of God. They think that He tries to save people and that He is limited because they won't give Him permission.

Atheist take great pride in believing that they can frustrate the purposes of God to save them. The false view that God is not Sovereign over the human will, brings joy to the pride of man. Man falsely feels that God is in man's sovereign hands.

The phrase "Lord knows he tried." is a form of sin that prideful man mocks God with.

Edit: Sentence structure corrections

Dear Abe,

Ok, I got it, it is about Calvinism; one of those endless and fruitless debates that end up in strive and contesting each others salvation.

Would you consider to read Dave Hunt's or David Servant's essay about Calvinism?
http://www.shepherdserve.org/calvinism.htm

narrowpath

Abe_Juliot wrote:

I would agree to not say that God forces. However, He does cause. The word force is void of any reference to mercy and providence.

What conclusions have you come to concerning the reason he causes some to believe and others not to.

The scripture says whosoever that believeth. The bible also says that God will have all men to be saved.

The grace of God is received by faith. I don't see how one can truly magnify the grace of God by accusing him of not willing to cause some to believe. I will not accuse God of wanting some of his creation to be born just to go to hell.

Dear Abe, Ok, I got it, it is about Calvinism; one of those endless and fruitless debates that end up in strive and contesting each others salvation. Would you consider to read Dave Hunt's or David Servant's essay about Calvinism? http://www.shepherdserve.org/calvinism.htm

Let it be known that you brought up Calvinism. I'm declaring scriptural truths and I have not even mentioned John Calvin. Please don't change the subject into a debate about John Calvin. I work at a bible college with a huge library of books on Calvinism and I have held Dave's book in my hands and I don't want to read it or discuss it.

Edit Addition:

Why do I not want to bring Dave Hunt into the thread?

http://www.monergism.com/directory/search.php?action=search_links_simple&search_kind=and&phrase=dave+hunt&B1=Go

Quote:

"What the 1st Adam lost, the second man from heaven regained for us."

If all that are in Adam are so due to their birth and not by their choice or will, and none object to this truth and bring a charge against God, neither should any bring a charge against God when He places any in Christ by the new birth which is from above and as the wind, and not by the choice or will of any but His Own Will by which He begat us. (see James 1:18)

All in Adam are children OF wrath by NATURE(naturally).

BUT GOD...! But God ...has created(supernaturally re-created by the new birth)His children in Christ Jesus for those good works which we now walk in, as God has before ordained that we should. (see Eph. 2:10)

All Praise,Honor and Glory be to His Name and not ours.

So it is that men naturally will to make themselves a name. (see Gen. 11:4)

What conclusions have you come to concerning the reason he causes some to believe and others not to.

God does not cause sin or unbelief. Man gets the blame for his sin and not God.

This is why God may justly ask the sinner, "...why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost..." (Act 5:3)"...Why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God." (Act 5:4) "How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord?" (Act 5:9)

God causes Faith and Love in the Heart. That is why you cannot give me one scripture where Paul or any other of God's children in Scripture thanked man for something praiseworthy.

Have you never read?

"Thus saith the LORD, The people which were left of the sword found grace in the wilderness; even Israel, when I went to cause him to rest." (Jer 31:2)

"They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn." (Jer 31:9)

"And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them." (Eze 36:27)

In light of these truths, you should be stirred to pray the scripture, "Cause me to hear thy lovingkindness in the morning; for in thee do I trust: cause me to know the way wherein I should walk; for I lift up my soul unto thee." (Psa 143:8)

If you confess that your Faith and repentance are graces that God has given you, you will be stirred to ask God for more. This should edify you if you are doing justly, loving mercy, and walking humbly with your God. Yea, you will rejoice in the scripture, "I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the LORD my God. Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth." (Jer 31:18-19)

May God grant you grace to know that everything praiseworthy is all of His grace and not of yourself.

-Abraham

Edit: sentence structure, spelling correction, and scripture additions

The scriptures are beautiful brother and I love them everyone. However the scriptures are promised to the believer. If you can believe for all things are possible to him that believes.

We are under the new covenant and God has given his promise to those that believe. Faith and repentance will only be given to those that believe.

Faith and repentance will only be given to those that believe.

Believing is Faith and repentance.

That is why the scriptures say, "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him." (1Jn 51:)

There is no such thing as an unregenerate believer. They don't exist in the bible and they don't exist in this world.

EDIT ADDITION:

True believing must be done in love to God. "faith which worketh by love." (Gal 5:6) You cannot believe on Jesus when you hate Him.

"Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God." (1Jn 4:7)

There is no such thing as unregenerate lover of God. They don't exist in the bible and they don't exist in this world.

Edit: Grammer and sentence structure correction

Many times we do not understand regeneration because we do not understand the radical ruin in ourselves that God has saved us from. For example, did you know that the scripture say that in your unregenerate state, your feet are swift to shed blood. Did you know that everything you did in thought word and deed was sinful? Oh, what a galaxy of sins God has forgiven you dear believer. He that is forgiven much loves much. You did not just commit a lot of sins. Everything you brought forth was sin against the precious Lamb of God.

You crucified Jesus
Jesus suffered the wrath of God for the sin of crucifying Jesus
With Your Heart You have shed His blood
In His Love He has washed you in His own blood.

You have cried, “Crucify Him, Let Him die the death!”
He has prayed, “Father Forgive them, for they know not what they do.”
While we were yet Crucifying Jesus, He died for us

You intended it for evil. God intended it for good.

Here are some scriptures that God has has graced me with as I have been studying through the New Testament. I have not yet finished it, so it is only Matthew through Acts so far.

Blessings in love to you dear friend,

MAN'S UTTER RUIN

UTTERLY SINFUL - The unregenerate only do evil and only do sin with their heart
Rom 3:10-18
Heb 11:6
Rom 14:23
OUTWARD GOODNESS - The natural man may show outward acts of goodness. However, these are not acts of love towards God. Therefore these acts are sinful because of the intentions of the heart.
ATTENDING TO THE WORD OF GOD
Act 17:18-21
HOSPITALITY
Act 28:2
Act 28:7
Act 28:10
FOLLOWING AFTER THEIR OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS
Mt 23:27-28
Lk 11:39-44
Lk 16:15
Lk 18:9-12
Rom 9:31
Rom 10:2-3

UNIVERSAL CONDEMNATION - by the offense of Adam judgment came upon all men to condemnation
Rom 5:12
Rom 5:14
EVIL NATURE - The unregenerate have an evil nature and they have need of a new nature
Jn 3:3
Jn 3:6-7
Jn 5:37-38
Rom 7:5
EVIL NATURE FROM THE WOMB
Rom 3:9
Rom 8:5
Rom 8:9
Rom 9:8
CHILDREN OF THE DEVIL
Jn 8:44
Act 13:10
EVIL HEART - The unregenerate have an evil heart and they have need of a new heart
Mt 12:34-35
Mt 13:13-15
Mk 7:21-23
Jn 2:25
Act 28:26-27
SPIRITUAL BLINDNESS
Jn 1:5
Jn 1:10
EXAMPLES OF AN EVIL HEART
UNWILLING TO COME TO CHRIST
Mt 22:3
SELF JUSTIFICATION AGAINST CHRIST
Lk 10:29
UNWILLING TO BRING OTHERS TO CHRIST
Lk 13:34
HATRED TOWARDS THE REIGN OF CHRIST
Lk 19:14
Lk 19:27
UNWILLING TO BELIEVE ON CHRIST
Lk 22:67-68
DESIRING TO MURDER CHRIST
Lk 23:25
UNWILLING TO RECEIVE CHRIST
Jn 1:11
Jn 3:11
MORE EXAMPLES
Jn 3:19-20
Jn 5:40-44
Jn 12:43
Jn 15:24
Jn 18:39-40
Act 7:39
Act 7:51
Act 22:18
BONDAGE
Jn 3:32
Jn 8:34
Act 8:23
FREE FROM RIGHTEOUSNESS
Rom 6:20
INABILITY - The unregenerate have an inability to do anything good with their nature and heart (Notice the words "able, can, cannot, could not")
Lk 13:24
Jn 6:44
Jn 6:65
Jn 8:14-15
Jn 8:21-23
Jn 8:43-47
Jn 12:38-40
Jn 14:17
Jn 15:5
Rom 8:7-8

HOPELESSNESS IN MAN AND HOPEFULNESS IN GOD - Scriptures that box sinners up to the mercy of God and thus leaving them no hope or confidence in their evil heart. Scriptures that lead sinners to a healthy dispair, so that they might set their hope in God and not in themselves
Mt 23:31-33
Jn 1:12-13
Jn 6:63
Jn 8:36
Jn 10:26-27

Edit: Added sentences for clarification, sentence structure corrections, and spell check

I don't see how one can truly magnify the grace of God by accusing him of not willing to cause some to believe. I will not accuse God of wanting some of his creation to be born just to go to hell.

God desires all men universally to hate their sin and set their affection upon Him. God does not take pleasure in the sin of man nor their love of death. He does not delight in Man's Utter Ruin and Rebellion.

In God providence, He has purposes and permitted man's Rebellion to take place in it's utter and complete detail.

Let not a man think that God is not grieved and even brought to tears at the sinners rebellion.

God justly passes over sinners by not showing them mercy. This does not mean that He does not desire them to hate their sin and love Him. God is willing to justly show His wrath on the wicked. That is why Psalm 69:20-28 and Psalm 109:7-20 are in your Bible. What is God declaring to us in these passages? We are not only to magnify the grace of God. We are to magnify God Himself. Thus, we also must magnify God's wrath. God is well pleased to magnify His righteous Wrath. God loves righteousness; He hates iniquity; and He hates all workers of iniquity. Hallelujah! "And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up forever and ever." (Rev 19:3) "Before your pots can feel the thorns, he shall take them away as with a whirlwind, both living, and in his wrath. The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked. So that a man shall say, Verily there is a reward for the righteous: verily he is a God that judgeth in the earth." (Psa 58:9-11)

Abe_Juliot wrote:

God desires all men universally to hate their sin and set their affection upon Him. God does not take pleasure in the sin of man nor their love of death. He does not delight in Man's Utter Ruin and Rebellion.

In God providence, He has purposes and permitted man's Rebellion to take place in it's utter and complete detail.

Let not a man think that God is not grieved and even brought to tears at the sinners rebellion.

God justly passes over sinners by not showing them mercy. This does not mean that He does not desire them to hate their sin and love Him.

Do you even believe what you are writing. How can you say this and then say that he does not desire all to believe. Why would he be brought to tears at the sinners rebellion if men are not held responsible. He definitely is not crying because he does not desire for them to believe. He definitely is not crying because he was not willing to cause them to be believe.

You being evil know how to give good things to your children. How could you give one of them food and let the other starve and then cry about it and feel sorry for them because you were to sorry to feed the other child. You might can do this but God never! He gives everybody an opportunity and if they reject his love and sacrifice for them then ultimately he will pour out his wrath on them in the end. But brother you will never convince me that God will pour out his wrath on people with out giving them grace if only they would believe in his Son and his sacrifice for them.

Sinners are not to be compared to starving children that want Jesus to save them. Sinners are rebels who hate God and God is not obligated to show any of us mercy, longsuffering, and patience. God flooded the who world young and old, woman and children... Because God is a just judge and He is angry with the wicked every day. He will turn the wicked into hell and all the nations that forget God. God never had to save you. We were not humble children desiring Jesus before we were regenerated by His Spirit. We were rebels who murdered Jesus with our sin. To error in this, is to error in the gospel. I plead with you not to stray from the biblical declaration of Man's utter Ruin.

He gives everybody an opportunity and if they reject his love and sacrifice for them then ultimately he will pour out his wrath on them in the end.

The scriptures do not teach this. There many that have died and gone to Hell who never heard the gospel here on earth. This is a modern false teaching with no scriptural support. Salvation is not an opportunity or a second chance. Salvation is Jesus Christ and The Father has graciously given us the gift of His Son. Salvation is a gift and not an opportunity to save yourself by the works of your will and running.

The scriptures teach both the responsibility of Man and the Sovereign grace of God in Regeneration. I have not strayed from the biblical account. Do not accuse God of evil or injustice for His righteousness in His decree to Choose some and not other to be saved.

Friend, did you know that you are in the bible?

right now you are right here in verse 20 and you are replying against God when you accuse Him of injustice.

[18] Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. [19] Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? [20] Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? [21] Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? [22] What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: [23] And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, [24] Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? Romans 9:18-24

All men are on the same level. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life.

God shows mercy on whom he wills and whom he wills he hardens. Every time one hears the gospel of mercy and rejects is being hardened. Every time someone hears the gospel of mercy and believes receives grace.

If I might ask.

Luke 6
35. "But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, [b]expecting [color=CC3300]nothing[/color] in return[/b]; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men."

How does this fit in to your doctrine that the Father gave His Beloved Son expecting a reward: the Bride; sovereignly requiring the salvation of this amount: *_________________________* ?

Abe_Juliot wrote:

Friend, did you know that you are in the bible?

right now you are right here in verse 20 and you are replying against God when you accuse Him of injustice.

I must correct you because you are very much mistaken in your accusation. I will never accuse God of any wrong doing. It is your doctrine that is accusing him of not being willing to save all of his creation. It is your doctrine that is damning the people that Christ died for, not mine.

Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

If I might ask. Luke 6 35. "But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men." How does this fit in to your doctrine that the Father gave His Beloved Son expecting a reward: the Bride; sovereignly requiring the salvation of this amount: *_________________________* ?

You are quoting and speaking Luke 6:35 to Jesus, When Jesus is speaking to you in this verse. For he later says, " Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven." (Luke 6:37)

Are you going to stay with the flow of the context and say this to Jesus? Are you going to tell Jesus not to Judge sinners and condemn the wicked? Are you going to tell Jesus that if He does not forgive those that He is presently pouring His wrath on, He won't be forgiven?

Jesus is speaking to you in this verse. Jesus has authority to judge sinners, condemn sinners, and to not forgive them. You don't have this authority.

Furthermore, Jesus does show acts of goodness and longsuffering upon the wicked, even those who He has not elected to be under His eternal Love and eternal redemption (which is through the blood of the cross).

1. God restrains many of the sins of the wicked. If God had not restrained us when we where unregenerate, we would have manifested such horrifying sins, we would appear as the devil himself. That is why the scriptures say of every unregenerate man. "Their feet are swift to shed blood." (Rom 3:15) That was us my friend.

2. Jesus shows much more goodness to the wicked in that He does not immediately kill them and send them to Hell right now. He has all power and authority to do this. It is His goodness that He is longsuffering to them. Furthermore He feeds his enemies. Hitler owed God thanksgiving for all his meals, his clothing, his shelter, his family, and many other acts of kindness which God showed towards Him.

All these acts of kindness that He has showed towards the wicked are undeserved and God does not require them to earn his goodness.

-Abraham

Edit: quote added, grammar check

I must correct you because you are very much mistaken in your accusation. I will never accuse God of any wrong doing. It is your doctrine that is accusing him of not being willing to save all of his creation. It is your doctrine that is damning the people that Christ died for, not mine.

If it is this doctrine which you conclude is damning souls, you must relate this conclusion to this man also. I am preaching the gospel that He preached.

The following is a collection of quotes from Charles Spurgeon on the subject of "For Whom Did Christ Die?"

If Christ on His cross intended to save every man, then He intended to save those who were lost before He died. If the doctrine be true, that He died for all men, then He died for some who were in Hell before He came into this world, for doubtless there were even then myriads there who had been cast away because of their sins. . . That seems to me a conception a thousand times more repulsive than any of those consequences which are said to be associated with the Calvinistic and Christian doctrine of special and particular redemption. To think that my Savior died for men who were or are in Hell, seems a supposition too horrible for me to entertain. (Charles Spurgeon, Autobiography: 1, The Early Years, p. 172)

We are often told that we limit the atonement of Christ, because we say that Christ has not made satisfaction for all men, or all men would be saved. Now, our reply to this is that, on the other hand, our opponents limit it, we do not. The Arminians say, Christ died for all men. Ask them what they mean by it. Did Christ die so as to secure the salvation of all men? They say, "No, certainly not." We ask them the next question-Did Christ die so as to secure the salvation of any man in particular? They say, "No." They are obliged to admit this if they are consistent. They say, "No; Christ has died so that any man may be saved if"-and then follow certain conditions of salvation. We say then, we will just go back to the old statement-Christ did not die so as beyond a doubt to secure the salvation of anybody, did He? You must say "No;" you are obliged to say so, for you believe that even after a man has been pardoned, he may yet fall from grace and perish. Now, who is it that limits the death of Christ? Why you... We say Christ so died that He infallibly secured the salvation of a multitude that no man can number, who through Christ's death not only may be saved, but are saved, must be saved, and cannot by any possibility run the hazard of being anything but saved. You are welcome to your atonement; you may keep it. We will never renounce ours for the sake of it. (Charles Spurgeon, Sermon 181, New Park Street Pulpit, IV, p. 135)

I would rather believe a limited atonement that is efficacious for all men for whom it was intended, than a universal atonement that is not efficacious for anybody, except the will of men be added to it. (Charles Spurgeon, Sermons, Vol. 4, p. 70)

A redemption which pays a price, but does not ensure that which is purchased -- a redemption which calls Christ a substitute for the sinner, but yet which allows the person to suffer - is altogether unworthy of our apprehensions of Almighty God. It offers no homage to his wisdom, and does despite to his covenant faithfulness. We could not and would not receive such a travesty of divine truth as that would be. There is no ground for any comfort whatever in it. (Charles Haddon Spurgeon, Sermons, Vol. 49, p. 39)
Now, beloved, when you hear any one laughing or jeering at a limited atonement, you may tell him this. General atonement is like a great wide bridge with only half an arch; it does not go across the stream: it only professes to go half way; it does not secure the salvation of anybody. Now, I had rather put my foot upon a bridge as narrow as Hungerford, which went all the way across, than on a bridge that was as wide as the world, if it did not go all the way across the stream. I am told it is my duty to say that all men have been redeemed, and I am told that there is a Scriptural warrant for it—"Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time." Now, that looks like a very, very great argument indeed on the other side of the question. For instance, look here. "The whole world is gone after Him." Did all the world go after Christ? "Then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan." Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem baptized in Jordan? "Ye are of God, little children," and "the whole world lieth in the wicked one." Does "the whole world" there mean everybody? If so, how was it, then, that there were some who were "of God?" The words "world" and "all" are used in seven or eight senses in Scripture; and it is very rarely that "all" means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts—some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile.
Leaving controversy, however, I will now answer a question. Tell me, then, sir, whom did Christ die for? Will you answer me a question or two, and I will tell you whether He died for you. Do you want a Saviour? Do you feel that you need a Saviour? Are you this morning conscious of sin? Has the Holy Spirit taught you that you are lost? Then Christ died for you and you will be saved. Are you this morning conscious that you have no hope in the world but Christ? Do you feel that you of yourself cannot offer an atonement that can satisfy God's justice? Have you given up all confidence in yourselves? And can you say upon your bended knees, "Lord, save, or I perish"? Christ died for you. If you are saying this morning, "I am as good as I ought to be; I can get to Heaven by my own good works," then, remember, the Scripture says of Jesus, "I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." So long as you are in that state I have no atonement to preach to you. But if this morning you feel guilty, wretched, conscious of your guilt, and are ready to take Christ to be your only Saviour, I can not only say to you that you may be saved, but what is better still, that you will be saved. When you are stripped of everything, but hope in Christ, when you are prepared to come empty-handed and take Christ to be your all, and to be yourself nothing at all, then you may look up to Christ, and you may say, "Thou dear, Thou bleeding Lamb of God! thy griefs were endured for me; by thy stripes I am healed, and by thy sufferings I am pardoned." And then see what peace of mind you will have; for if Christ has died for you, you cannot be lost. God will not punish twice for one thing. If God punished Christ for your sin, He will never punish you. "Payment, God's justice cannot demand, first, at the bleeding surety's hand, and then again at mine." We can today, if we believe in Christ, march to the very throne of God, stand there, and if it is said, "Art thou guilty?" we can say, "Yes, guilty." But if the question is put, "What have you to say why you should not be punished for your guilt?" We can answer, "Great God, Thy justice and Thy love are both guarantees that Thou wilt not punish us for sin; for didst Thou not punish Christ for sin for us? How canst Thou, then, be just—how canst Thou be God at all, if Thou dost punish Christ the substitute, and then punish man himself afterwards?" Your only question is, "Did Christ die for me?" And the only answer we can give is—"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ came into the world to save sinners." Can you write your name down among the sinners—not among the complimentary sinners, but among those that feel it, bemoan it, lament it, seek mercy on account of it? Are you a sinner? That felt, that known, that professed, you are now invited to believe that Jesus Christ died for you, because you are a sinner; and you are bidden to cast yourself upon this great immovable rock, and find eternal security in the Lord Jesus Christ. Amen.
(Charles Spurgeon, from the sermon Particular Redemption)

For whom did Christ die?

The following is from Spurgeon’s sermon,
"LAUS DEO" (No. 572, Romans 11:36)

We hold that Christ did not redeem every
man, but only redeemed those men who will
ultimately attain unto eternal life.

We do not believe that he redeemed the damned.

We do not believe that he poured out
his life blood for souls already in hell.

We never can imagine that Christ suffered
in the room and stead of all men, and that
then afterwards these same men have to
suffer for themselves.

We do not believe that Christ pays their
debts, and then God makes them pay their
debts again a second time.

We hold to this- that Christ laid down his
life for his sheep, and that his laying down
his life for the sheep involved and secured
the salvation of every one of them.

1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

This scripture teaches us that He suffered the wrath of God for the sins that the world has committed. If God purposed in the death of His Son to save all men universally, He would. And His propitiation would be sufficient to save the most vile of sinners in this world. This text is not teaching us that Jesus actually propitiated or atoned for their sins. For if He had done this, all men universally would be justified and no longer under the wrath of God.

Edit: Sentence structure changed for clarification

Edit Addition:

If you are having trouble with "wolrd" texts,

This may be of some help in studying the scriptures.

[url=http://www.albatrus.org/english/universalistic/universalistic_passages/index_universalistic_passages.htm]Universalistic Verses[/url]

I agree with you concerning the scriptures where it says that all have sinned and deserve his wrath.

But your reasoning of how he decides to save some and not others is unscriptural. The bible says to whosoever that believes but you say it is only the one's he choose to believe. You give no reason to why he passes over some but only to say that saving some is better than none. I don't think you would say that if you were the one that got passed by and was going to have to spend eternity in hell.

Evidently you must believe that you are one of the elect that God decided to save and didn't pass you by.

I wonder what makes you the happiest about, is it that you are one of the elect or that some are not the elect according to your doctrine. According to your writings you seem to be happy that God is pouring out his wrath on helpless sinners. I know you are glad you are not one of them. I am not happy people are going to hell when Christ paid such a high price of his own precious blood. I believe if God can save some then he can save all. You don't believe this that is your belief not mind. Man and Satan is responsible for man's unbelief and not God.

Abe_Juliot wrote:

I must correct you because you are very much mistaken in your accusation. I will never accuse God of any wrong doing. It is your doctrine that is accusing him of not being willing to save all of his creation. It is your doctrine that is damning the people that Christ died for, not mine.

If it is this doctrine which you conclude is damning souls, you must relate this conclusion to this man also. I am preaching the gospel that He preached.

The following is a collection of quotes from Charles Spurgeon on the subject of "For Whom Did Christ Die?"

If Christ on His cross intended to save every man, then He intended to save those who were lost before He died. If the doctrine be true, that He died for all men, then He died for some who were in Hell before He came into this world, for doubtless there were even then myriads there who had been cast away because of their sins. . . That seems to me a conception a thousand times more repulsive than any of those consequences which are said to be associated with the Calvinistic and Christian doctrine of special and particular redemption. To think that my Savior died for men who were or are in Hell, seems a supposition too horrible for me to entertain. (Charles Spurgeon, Autobiography: 1, The Early Years, p. 172)

Spurgeon was a great preacher mightily used of God but he is still just a man and his words are not the bible.

I took this quote from his writings.

"To think that my Savior died for men who were or are in Hell, seems a supposition too horrible for me to entertain."

Why is it not horrible to entertain the thought that Christ suffered such a horrible death and then skip over some of his creation that he loves when all were born in sin after Adam.

Why is it not horrible to think that Christ wanted to save some but not all. Why is it not horrible to think that when God has the power to save all but won't save some.

The bible says to whosoever that believes but you say it is only the one's he choose to believe.

There is no such thing as a whosoever believer that is not born of God.

I stand on the word of God that I stated earlier, "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him." (1Jn 51:)

There is no such thing as an unregenerate believer. They don't exist in the bible and they don't exist in this world.

True believing must be done in love to God. "faith which worketh by love." (Gal 5:6) You cannot believe on Jesus when you hate Him.

"Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God." (1Jn 4:7)

There is no such thing as unregenerate lover of God. They don't exist in the bible and they don't exist in this world.

Furthermore, I plead with you to consider these text on Man's Ruin.

"Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able." -Luke 13:24
"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." -John 6:44
"And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." -John 6:65
"Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go. Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man." -John 8:14-15
"Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come. Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come. And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world." -John 8:21-23
"Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God." -John 8:43-47
"That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them." -John 12:38-40
"Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you." -John 14:17
"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." -John 15:5
"Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God." -Romans 8:7-8

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." -John 1:12-13

I want to empasize this text in Ezekiel to you.

Ezekiel 36:26-27 "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them."

Notice the words in the last verse of this passage in Ezekiel. You have the words walk, keep and do. Prior to these words, you have the word Cause. Prior to the word Cause, you have the words I Will repeated numerous times by God and not you.

It was His will. It wasn't from your will. He caused it. You didn't cause it. We love Him, because He first loved us. Praise Him for His mercy. Come, Let us run to His throne of Grace and wash His feet with our tears! Praise Him for His mercy!

"Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth." -Psalm 110:3

"So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy." -Rom 9:16

-Abraham

Brother Abe, you are going to have to answer better than that.

You are quoting and speaking Luke 6:35 to Jesus, When Jesus is speaking to you in this verse. For he later says, " Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven." (Luke 6:37)

Jesus is speaking to you in this verse. Jesus has authority to judge sinners, condemn sinners, and to not forgive them. You don't have this authority.

I do not have authority to judge, condemn, or forgive those who have sinned against God -- this is not implied to those who have sinned against me insofar as I am able ([b]Romans 12:18[/b]). I do have authority and am commanded by God to judge, condemn, and pardon those who have sinned against me just as God has judged (Christ as the propitiation for my sins), condemned (crucified me with Christ), and forgiven me (raised me up with Him) by grace through faith in His Beloved Son.

ie. To those who have sinned against me: my judgment ought to be reconciliation ([b]Matthew 5:24[/b]), my condemnation ought to be to my own abasement ([b]Matthew 5:40[/b]), and my pardon must be without expecting a recompense ([b]it must be a free gift[/b]) -- just as our Lord and Savior set for us an example to follow in obedience from the heart in faith.

Are you going to stay with the flow of the context and say this to Jesus? Are you going to tell Jesus not to Judge sinners and condemn the wicked? Are you going to tell Jesus that if He does not forgive those that He is presently pouring His wrath on, He won't be forgiven?

You know this is a poor interpretation of scripture. Jesus is without sin and is therefore not under judgment or condemnation or in need of forgiveness. Which is also the very reason that He has authority to judge righteously.

[b]Luke 6
36.[/b] "Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.
[b]37.[/b] "Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned.

This does not say "Judge not [the end]". This statement is compared to the following verse, "For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again". Thus, when we judge we shall also be judged.

An excerpt from [b]The Reformed Pastor[/b] by Richard Baxter:
"See that the work of saving grace be thoroughly wrought in your own souls. Take heed to yourselves, lest you be void of that saving grace of God which you offer to others, and be strangers to the effectual working of that gospel which you preach; and lest, while you proclaim to the world the necessity of a Savior, your own hearts should neglect him, and you should miss of an interest in him and his saving benefits. Take heed to yourselves, lest you perish, while you call upon others to take heed of perishing; and lest you famish yourselves while you prepare food for them. Though there is a promise of shining as the stars, to those ‘who turn many to righteousness,’ that is but on supposition that they are first turned to it themselves. Their own sincerity in the faith is the condition of their glory, simply considered, though their great ministerial labors may be a condition of the promise of their greater glory. Many have warned others that they come not to that place of torment, while yet they hastened to it themselves: many a preacher is now in hell, who hath a hundred times called upon his hearers to use the utmost care and diligence to escape it. Can any reasonable man imagine that God should save men for offering salvation to others, while they refuse it themselves; and for telling others those truths which they themselves neglect and abuse? Many a tailor goes in rags, that maketh costly clothes for others; and many a cook scarcely licks his fingers, when he hath dressed for others the most costly dishes. Believe it, brethren, God never saved any man for being a preacher, nor because he was an able preacher; but because he was a justified, sanctified man, and consequently faithful in his Master’s work. Take heed, therefore, to ourselves first, that you he that which you persuade your hearers to be, and believe that which you persuade them to believe, and heartily entertain that Savior whom you offer to them. He that bade you love your neighbors as yourselves, did imply that you should love yourselves, and not hate and destroy yourselves and them."

[b]James 2:13[/b], "judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy."

[b]Matthew 18
27.[/b] "And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.
[b]28.[/b] "But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, `Pay back what you owe.'
[b]29.[/b] "So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, `Have patience with me and I will repay you.'
[b]30.[/b] "But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.
[b]31.[/b] "So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
[b]32.[/b] "Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, `You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
[b]33.[/b] `Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
[b]34.[/b] "And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
[b]35. "My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart." [/b]

The question still stands, brother:

Luke 6:35, "But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men."

How does this fit in to your doctrine that the Father gave His Beloved Son expecting a reward: the Bride; sovereignly requiring the salvation of this amount: *_________________________* ?

God is not obligated to show mercy to anyone. Sinners are not to be compared to poor sick people who want a cure. All sinners are rebels who hate God. i have been reading through Isaiah and I am amazed that God has shown mercy on us. We should be more amazed that God has shown mercy on some. Rather, you are questioning why would God would not have mercy on all. My friend, God can do whatever He wants with us concerning His mercy. Mercy is undeserved. Mercy is not a medicine for an innocent sick soul. Mercy is a sovereign work of Grace upon the worst of wretched sinners, whereby He grants them mercy to be faithful.

Read what Paul the apostle said concerning why he was faithful? He declared by the Spirit of God, that he had obtained Mercy to be Faithful.

"...yet I give my judgment, as one that hath obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful." (1Co 7:25)

Furthermore, read what Paul said concerning why He was saved.

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;" (Tts 3:5)

Sinners are not innocent sick people who want the cure.

Read what Isaiah says about the wicked?
[1] The wicked are a seed of evildoers. They are children that are corrupters. Their whole head is sick and their whole heart is faint. From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it (Isa 1:4-6).
[2] The gifts and sacrifices of the wicked are vain and abominable unto God. The religious zeal and penance of the wicked is iniquity (Isa 1:13).
[3] The wicked may hear the gospel with their ears, but they do not understand it with an ear of faith. The wicked may see the works of the LORD with their eyes, but they do not perceive the LORD with the eyes of understanding (Isa 6:9).
[4] When the LORD smits or punishes the wicked, they do not turn unto him. The wicked do not seek the LORD (Isa 9:13).
[5] The LORD shall have no joy in the young men that He has chosen to not have mercy upon. For everyone of them is a hypocrite, an evildoer, and every mouth speaks folly (Isa 9:17).
[6] If favor is shown to the wicked, he will not learn righteousness. In the land of uprightness he will not deal justly and he will not behold the majesty of the LORD (Isa 26:10).
[7] The wicked are children that will not hear the law of the LORD (Isa 30:9).
[8] The heart of the wicked will work iniquity (Isa 32:6).
[9] All nations before the LORD are as nothing. They are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity (Isa 40:17).
[10] The wicked may see many of the wonderful works of God, but they will not observe or give heed to the gospel call. The wicked may attend to hear the gospel with their ears, but they do not understand it with their heart (Isa 42:20).
[11] The greedy shepherds cannot understand (Isa 56:11).
[12] None of the wicked call for justice. None of the wicked plead [or defend] for truth. The works of the wicked are works of iniquity. Their feet run to evil, and they make haste to shed innocent blood. Their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity. Wasting [or violence] and destruction are in their paths. The way of peace they know not. There is no judgment in their goings. They have made them crooked paths. The wicked are in desolate places as dead men (Isa 59:4-10).
[13] We are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags. We all do fade as a leaf. Our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. There is none that calleth upon the name of the LORD, that stirreth up himself to take hold of the LORD (Isa 64:6-7).

You give no reason to why he passes over some but only to say that saving some is better than none.

God elects [i.e. chooses, predestines, foreordains]

1. His angels
2. 1Tim 5:21 His peculiar people, Israel
3. Exo 6:7; Deu 7:6-8; Deu 10:14-15; Psa 33:12; Isa 43:20-21 Individuals to salvation
4. Psa 65:4; Mat 24:24; John 6:37; John 15:16; Act 13:48; Rom 8:28-30; Rom 9:10-24; Rom 11:5-7; Eph 1:3-6; Eph 1:11-12; 1The 1:4; 1The 5:9; 2The 2:13-14 Individuals to condemnation
Exo 4:21; Rom 9:13; Rom 9:17-18; Rom 9:21-22; 1Pet 2:8

His motivation in election

1. His own good pleasure
2. Eph 1:5; 2Tim 1:9 The display of his glory
3. Isa 43:6-7; Rom 9:22-24; 1Cor 1:27-31; Eph 2:4-7; Pro 16:4 His special love
4. Deu 7:6-8; 2The 2:13 His foreknowledge
Rom 8:29; 1Pet 1:2
* Which means his special love
* Jer 1:5; Amos 3:2; Mat 7:22-23; 1Cor 8:3; 2Tim 2:19; 1Pet 1:20 But not:
* Any good [nobility, wisdom, power, choice, seeking] he foresees in anyone Deu 7:7; Rom 9:11-13; Rom 9:16; Rom 10:20; 1Cor 1:27-29; 1Cor 4:7; 2Tim 1:9

I don't think you would say that if you were the one that got passed by and was going to have to spend eternity in hell.

No, I wouldn't love the truth of God if God had justly left me with a rebellious heart. I would be in hell and enslaved to a heart of unbelief and hatred towards God. The Righteous also would rejoice that God has damned a sinner such as I. For I deserve God's eternal wrath.
Oh, my friend... there is mercy for the chief of sinners. He is rich in mercy to all who call upon Him from a heart of Faith in His finished work of redemption

But God, in His great merciful love has saved this poor wretched sinner. He through the death of His own Son has made me a partaker of His grace. He has done this for His glory and for His names sake. Hallelujah!

Man and Satan is responsible for man's unbelief and not God.

I have not stated this. But, rather I have agreed on this note. And, you should know this if you had read my previous responses.

I previously wrote, "God does not cause sin or unbelief. Man gets the blame for his sin and not God.

This is why God may justly ask the sinner, "...why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost..." (Act 5:3)"...Why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God." (Act 5:4) "How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord?" (Act 5:9)

God causes Faith and Love in the Heart. That is why you cannot give me one scripture where Paul or any other of God's children in Scripture thanked man for something praiseworthy."

Evidently you must believe that you are one of the elect that God decided to save and didn't pass you by.

I get my assurance from the Word of God and not by any confidence in self or man. I rejoice in the the mercies of God and I rejoice in the the righteousness wrath of God. To hate or despise either of these attributes in God, is to hate and despise God Himself. I'm happy in the God of my salvation, and His beauty and holiness has ravished my heart. Hallelujah!

I am not happy people are going to hell when Christ paid such a high price of his own precious blood.

If you don't like hell and God sending sinners to Hell, your problem is not with me. Your problem is with the God of the Bible.

PSALM 69
"[20] Reproach hath broken my heart; and I am full of heaviness: and I looked for some to take pity, but there was none; and for comforters, but I found none. [21] They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink. [22] Let their table become a snare before them: and that which should have been for their welfare, let it become a trap. [23] Let their eyes be darkened, that they see not; and make their loins continually to shake. [24] Pour out thine indignation upon them, and let thy wrathful anger take hold of them. [25] Let their habitation be desolate; and let none dwell in their tents. [26] For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded. [27] Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness. [28] Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous." -Psalms 69:20-28

PSALM 109
"[7] When he shall be judged, let him be condemned: and let his prayer become sin. [8] Let his days be few; and let another take his office. [9] Let his children be fatherless, and his wife a widow. [10] Let his children be continually vagabonds, and beg: let them seek their bread also out of their desolate places. [11] Let the extortioner catch all that he hath; and let the strangers spoil his labour. [12] Let there be none to extend mercy unto him: neither let there be any to favour his fatherless children. [13] Let his posterity be cut off; and in the generation following let their name be blotted out. [14] Let the iniquity of his fathers be remembered with the LORD; and let not the sin of his mother be blotted out. [15] Let them be before the LORD continually, that he may cut off the memory of them from the earth. [16] Because that he remembered not to shew mercy, but persecuted the poor and needy man, that he might even slay the broken in heart. [17] As he loved cursing, so let it come unto him: as he delighted not in blessing, so let it be far from him. [18] As he clothed himself with cursing like as with his garment, so let it come into his bowels like water, and like oil into his bones. [19] Let it be unto him as the garment which covereth him, and for a girdle wherewith he is girded continually. [20] Let this be the reward of mine adversaries from the LORD, and of them that speak evil against my soul." -Psalms 109:7-20

True believing must be done in love to God. "faith which worketh by love." (Gal 5:6) You cannot believe on Jesus when you hate Him.

I have asked this question before. Is it necessary for us to love God before we may have faith in Him?

Consider this point: "those who are forgiven much, love much" therefore if this is true then we must be forgiven before we can love. That is to say, we are forgiven before we have faith. Do you think this is an accurate statement?

The question still stands, brother: Luke 6:35, "But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men." How does this fit in to your doctrine that the Father gave His Beloved Son expecting a reward: the Bride; sovereignly requiring the salvation of this amount: *_________________________* ?

God does not expect man to make himself worthy of His free grace nor does He require man to make payments for it that it may be earned. In this sense Jesus does not expect a reward from man, when He compels sinners to to come to Him.

However, He does expect accomplishments from His death. And these accomplishments are rewards that He himself gives. It is God who grants sinners a New heart of Faith and Repentance. These graces are not not man's gift to God. We freely give our love and affection to Him. But, It is God who grants us the increase of Faith, hope, and Love, by the power of His Spirit through His Word. His reward is His own accomplishments and not our will or running causing His death to be efficacious.

[8] But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. [9] Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. [10] For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. Romans 5:8-10

"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." -Hebrews 12:2

"Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth. -Luke 15:10

"For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?" -2Th 2:19

The Father does expect a victorious redemption from Himself when He reconciled us to himself through the death and resurrection of His own Son.

"[10] Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. [11] He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. [12] Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors." -Isaiah 53:10-12

Brother, in your writings you have been very edifying and your exhortations on mercy have blessed me. I thank God for His working in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.

-Abraham

I have asked this question before. Is it necessary for us to love God before we may have faith in Him? Consider this point: "those who are forgiven much, love much" therefore if this is true then we must be forgiven before we can love. That is to say, we are forgiven before we have faith. Do you think this is an accurate statement?

In some points I would agree. I wouldn't want to separate Faith and love. For if any of these graces be in a man, they a married together. Love without Faith is sin and Faith without Love is dead.

That is to say, we are forgiven before we have faith. Do you think this is an accurate statement?

This is true in the sense that our sins were forgiven at the cross when Jesus prayed, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do." Let us encourage one another that His prayers are not in vain and nor was His death for us. He is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. For we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. Let us continually give thanks to His name for His right hand and His holy arm hath gotten Him the victory.

However, the assurance of our sins being forgiven is only granted to us when we have Faith in Him who justifies the ungodly and Love to God. For if any man love God, the same is known of him.

The increase of Love in us is wrought in us through the revelation of His forgiving love towards us. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. It is the Word of God by the Spirit of God that takes us into to deeper revelations of our sinfulness and His forgiveness.

Blessings to the glory of God! -Abraham

This is true in the sense that our sins were forgiven at the cross when Jesus prayed, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do."

Well, how can Jesus say that to them who crucified him and then not send them irresistable grace so that his prayer would be answered?
This MUST mean that God has forgiven them and a number of them rejected his forgiveness.

Jesus should then have said, Father forgive SOME who you will send irresistable grace and damn the others.

Dear brother Abe,

In this discussion thread, you asked the question of whether the Trinity can be frustrated and by ‘frustrated’ I’m understanding you to mean that things which God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit desire... are not coming to pass.

To this I would answer “yes”-the Trinity can be frustrated.

I believe that the apostle Stephen, when he preached his great sermon to those were ready to stone him, expressed the ‘frustration’ of God’s heart:

Acts 7:51
Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

What would the Holy Spirit have wanted these men to do who were ‘ resisting Him’ ? Stephen called them uncircumcised in heart, suggesting that this was something that needed to be corrected...Did the Holy Spirit want them to sin less...or to come to Christ through repentance and faith ?

Maybe a better example of the frustration Jesus had over people’s unwillingness to repent and believe the gospel is this one :

(Matt. 11:20,21).
“Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not. Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.”

I would describe Jesus as frustrated here. Why is he frustrated ? He is frustrated because people in cities such as Chorazin have not repented. He also says that if people living in cities like Tyre had seen similar works that the people in Chorazin have witnessed, “they would have repented long ago”.

So Jesus is frustrated because these wicked people had the ability to repent...but are not repenting. Would you agree that this is an accurate picture of Jesus’ state of mind and the source of his frustration ? When Jesus bemoaned the fact that these people were not repenting....does this imply that they should have just stopped doing certain sins or did it imply a whole turning to him with all their heart, resulting in conversion ?

Furthermore, in John 5: 39,40 Jesus is recorded as saying , “ You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.”

I believe that if we would have been there, hearing Jesus speak these words, we would have described his emotional state as ‘frustrated’. Again why is he frustrated ? Because of people’s unwillingness to repent and to come to him for salvation.

Then, another instance of Christ’s frustration, can be seen where he tells people in Jerusalem that ‘he was willing...but they were not’ :

Matt. 23:37
-- “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!”

Paul and Barnabas also expressed a godly frustration that people were ‘judging themselves unworthy of everlasting life’ :

Acts 13:46
“Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.”

What did Paul and Barnabas mean by, “judging yourselves unworthy of eternal life ?”

As far as the universality of the salvation gift, I believe there are many passages that speak to this issue. One, which is possibly less commonly seen as being connected with this issue is this one :

2 Peter 2:1
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Later, in the passage this portion is contained in, the future of these False prophets is clearly laid out; they are headed for judgment, they are headed for Hell.

And yet, doesn’t 2 Peter 2:1 tell us that Christ ‘bought them’, (through his death on the cross) ?

Again, I believe there are a great many passages that speak to the universality of Christ’s gift of salvation.

Isaiah 53:6
We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

Doesn’t this verse imply that ‘all’ of us (each human being) have gone astray and this same ‘all’ have had their sins laid on Christ ?

Here again, in another passage, God is telling us that by seeking Him, people can find him and that He is not far from “each one of us” :

Acts 17:26-27
“And [God] made from one, every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times, and the boundaries of their habitation, that they should seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us.

Lastly, Christ is said to have died for the sins of the ‘whole world’ :

1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Brother, these are my understandings of these passages, however I would be interested in hearing your interpretation of them.

With love in Christ,
John

Well, how can Jesus say that to them who crucified him and then not send them irresistable grace so that his prayer would be answered? This MUST mean that God has forgiven them and a number of them rejected his forgiveness. Jesus should then have said, Father forgive SOME who you will send irresistable grace and damn the others.

Dear friend, Jesus prayed and His prayers were answered upon His Elect. Many who shed His blood that day where soon washed in His blood on the day of Pentecost. (Read Acts 2-4) If you do not like that, then you must conclude that His prayers are in vain and that they do not avail to what He intends them to avail. What confidence do you find to pray for souls by the Spirit of God? For you believe that even many of Jesus' prayers were answered from the Father, "No."

Jesus should then have said, Father forgive SOME who you will send irresistable grace and damn the others.

"A man is not saved against his will, but he is made willing by the operation of the Holy Ghost. A mighty grace which he does not wish to resist enters into the man, disarms him, makes a new creature of him, and he is saved. (C.H. Spurgeon, Sermons, Vol. 10, p. 309).

... and I will go as far as Martin Luther, in that strong assertion of his, where he says, ‘If any man doth ascribe of salvation, even the very least, to the free will of man, he knoweth nothing of grace, and he hath not learnt Jesus Christ aright.’ It may seem a harsh sentiment; but he who in his soul believes that man does of his own free will turn to God, cannot have been taught of God, for that is one of the first principles taught us when God begins with us, that we have neither will nor power, but that He gives both; that he is ‘Alpha and Omega’ in the salvation of men. (C.H. Spurgeon from the sermon "Free Will A Slave", 1855).

"I believe the doctrine of election, because I am quite sure that if God had not chosen me I should never have chosen him; and I am sure he chose me before I was born, or else he never would have chosen me afterwards; and he must have elected me for reasons unknown to me, for I never could find any reason in myself why he should
have looked upon me with special love. 2LS47

"Those who cavil at the doctrine of election should answer this question: “Why is it that God has left devils without hope, and yet has sent His Son to redeem mankind? Is not divine sovereignty manifested here?' TN25

"Your d**nation is your own election, not God’s; you richly deserve it. 239.119

"How is it that some of us who were once drunkards, swearers, and the like, are now sitting here to praise the God of Israel this day? Was there anything good in us that moved the heart of God to save us? God forbid that we should indulge the blasphemous thought." 290.34

"I never yet knew anybody repent who gloried in his power to repent; I never yet knew a man heart-broken for sin who boasted that he could break his own heart when and where he pleased." 2050.591

"“But,” say others, “God elected them on the foresight of their faith.” Now, God gives faith, therefore he could not have elected them on account of faith, which he foresaw. There shall be twenty beggars in the street, and I determine to give one of them a shilling; but will any one say that I determined to give that one a shilling, that I elected him to have the shilling, because I foresaw that he would have it? That would be talking nonsense. In like manner to say that God elected men because he foresaw they would have faith, which is salvation in the germ, would be too absurd for us to listen to for a moment." 41,42.317

To this I would answer “yes”-the Trinity can be frustrated.

You believe He is frustrated.

FRUS'TRATED, pp. Defeated; disappointed; rendered vain or null. -Webster's 1828

"[9] Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, [10] Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: [11] Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it." -Isaiah 46:9-11

Do you realize that if Jesus did not have the power and grace to fulfill His purpose and decree of saving His apostles and prophets, You would not have the word of God in your hands today. Are going to ascribe this to the will of man? Are you going to say that the word of God came about with the help of the will of man? So also, it is absurd and false to say that Salvation came about by the will of man.

"For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." (2Pe 1:21)

It is necessary for me to repeat what I wrote earlier in this thread. For I have yet to hear of a man, say that this verse does not mean what it says.

Ezekiel 36:26-27 "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them."

Notice the words in the last verse of this passage in Ezekiel. You have the words walk, keep and do. Prior to these words, you have the word Cause. Prior to the word Cause, you have the words I Will repeated numerous times by God and not you.

It was His will. It wasn't from your will. He caused it. You didn't cause it. We love Him, because He first loved us. Praise Him for His mercy. Come, Let us run to His throne of Grace and wash His feet with our tears! Praise Him for His mercy!

"Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth." -Psalm 110:3

"So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy." -Rom 9:16

A dear friend presented this statement to me, "I would think it is because it is unreasonable to command us to do something we could not do."

My Response to him was this:

God often commands men to do that which they will not and cannot do. Therefore God has the right command and He does command sinners to do what they ought to do even though they do not have the heart or will to do it.

"O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart." (Pro 8:5)

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." (1Co 2:14) "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." (Rom 3:11) "Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word." (Jn 8:43)

Many assume that it is unjust for God to command someone to do that which they are unwilling and unable to do. Sadly, this reasoning has led many to conclude for the natural man, "If God commands it, they must have the will and ability to perform it. If they don't, then God is unjust for commanding it." However (as we have seen in scripture), God often commands men to do that which they are unable and unwilling to do.

1. He has the right to do as he pleases. He's God and we are not. He determines what is just and we are to submit to the bible even if it goes against human reasoning.
2. He commands men to make themselves a new heart and clean themselves, so that they may taste of their own inability/unwillingness. This bitter taste of hopelessness in the soul will box sinners up to the mercy of God revealed at the Cross of Christ and it is God's way of teaching sinners not to trust in their own hearts or their own dead works.
3. God shall have glory to himself, when He graciously and mercifully gives saving grace that makes sinners into new creatures through the washing of regeneration by the truth and preaching of the gospel. God gets the glory because he chose to bless an undeserving sinner with a new heart.

"For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to naught things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord." (1Co 1:26-21)

Blessings to the glory of God! -Abraham

Brother Abe,

I love the word of God.

Ezekiel 36:26-27 "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them."

This was my testimony I used after I was saved. He gave me a new heart and he put His Spirit in me and causes me to walk in His ways.

We can't do the will of God unless He causes us to.

We must turn to Him in faith and then He will cause us to walk in His ways.

Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

God says look unto me and be ye saved. He does not save anybody before they look and he will not cause anyone to do his will until after they believe. Faith comes before regeneration.

I wrote this earlier in the thread:
God desires all men universally to hate their sin and set their affection upon Him. God does not take pleasure in the sin of man nor their love of death. He does not delight in Man's Utter Ruin and Rebellion.

In God providence, He has purposes and permitted man's Rebellion to take place in it's utter and complete detail.

Let not a man think that God is not grieved and even brought to tears at the sinners rebellion.

Again, I believe there are a great many passages that speak to the universality of Christ’s gift of salvation. Isaiah 53:6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

If you keep reading through Isaiah 53, God clarifies the victory of Christ's death on those for whom He died.

"[10] Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. [11] He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. [12] Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors." -Isaiah 53:10-12

Notice the words many. It does not say everyone universally were justified through His work on the cross.

My friend, I know it is your desire for the world to be saved. You must understand that God is saving the world. He is saving a people out of every kindred, tongue, people, and nation. (Read Rev 5:9) And if I might add to that statement, No one is going to stop God or frustrate His purposes. For the Holy Spirit says, "the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand." ...and again He says, "He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities."

"And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;" Revelation 5:9

Your idea of the death of Christ does not guarantee the Salvation of a people out of every kindred, tongue, people, and nation. You make God out to be like you. You merely desire Everyone Universally to Be saved. But, you have no Sovereign power to decree Mercy upon whom you will. "...Thou thoughtest that I was altogether such a one as thyself." (Psa 50:21)" Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods? who is like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders?" (Exo 15:11) "For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else." (Isa 45:18)

The God of the bible is a miracle working God. He can accomplish that which is impossible for man to do. Let this be encouraging to you when you pray for souls. For I desire your edification. God is able to save the worst of sinners. Pray with confidence in the power and grace of God. Weep over their sin, but do not feel frustrated as though God is not able save that sinner.

-Abraham

Edit:spell check

I added this to the edification section at the begging of the thread. I pray that God will use it to bless you with joy in the goodness of God.

(Edit addition 3 - placed here to add to the edification section)
4. When I held my first born baby Isaac in my arms and kissed him goodbye, I would not have found peace that surpasses understanding and I would not have worshiped the Lord in that hour, unless I had known the Sovereign God of the Bible who is Sovereign over all things. My son died almost 4 weeks ago and I wont let anyone discourage me that God was not Sovereign over it. I rejoice that God has ordained this trail in my life to conform me into His image and to manifest His Son in me. He is not a frustrated God who cannot accomplish His purposes. "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." (Romans 8:28-30)

Ashley and I were given the blessing to hold Isaac and Worship the Lord for His Sovereign goodness towards us. We trust that He ordained this to conform us to His image.

This moment has been brought to me by the cross of Christ, by the love of Christ, and by the goodness of Christ. Let us rejoice and be glad in it! Brothers and sisters, I pray that the Lord may take us deeper into the waters of His grace. There is Peace in Christ that surpasses understanding of which I have found myself hungering after even more as a result of this event in our lives.

Please read this portion of the sermon by John Piper that God has used to strengthen me in this trial:

"I met a young woman from India a few years ago who thanked me for the truth she had heard in something I had said and asked if she could write to me. When she was born a treatable disease was misdiagnosed, and she was paralyzed. By age 14 she had had 21 surgeries and was cruelly treated by other children calling her "crippled." She became a Christian in high school. She married, had four miscarriages, and her second child died in her husband's arms at two months. She closed the letter,

I have read many books on suffering, but they are often so man-centered and... nullify, or at least diminish the glory, majesty and sovereignty of God. It is radical thinking to say that God wills and ordains our suffering and not just passively allows it, hoping to make the best of it for us. As I have grown in my walk, I can see that nothing in this world happens apart from the sovereign will of God."

Dear brother Abe,

These are deep waters you must be going through. Thank you for sharing about your son, Isaac. I'm sure that you will always treasure the memory of holding him in your arms.

Did you happen to read what Frank (apollus) shared about his son passing away at a young age ?

I have never experienced anything so painful as this. In the past few years, I have experienced the loss of my mom in law, and of a friend. Also, last year my youngest son Daniel experienced a bad burn on his back and had to be hospitalized for a week. God's sovereignty and steadfast love have also been a great comfort to me at these times.

I'll pray for you and your wife that you will experience His everlasting arms upholding you at this time.

I'm glad you're on this forum :-)

Love in Christ,
John

I thank God for your prayers. I trust that through them, God shall manifest His comfort to us. You are dearly loved. -Abraham

Hello narrowpath. I can't help but post a video here for you that shows the fallacious and egregious manner in which Dave Hunt slanders the doctrines of grace. If you hear his debate with James White where he admits to ignorance of the Reformers and the original languages of the Bible you will understand that he doesn't know what he is talking about and his tirades are simply an attempt to preserve his pride. I am grieved at how twisted peoples views are of these doctrines and even the history surrounding them because of the irresponsible rants Dave Hunt has spewed out. Watch this video to see how he twists Scripture and ignores the obvious just to keep his pride in tact. The video is ten minutes. Forgive my strong words but I am upset at how many people I meet who almost hate me because they believe the misinformation they read and heard from Dave Hunt:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2IBvETGVD0&feature=PlayList&p=348B16F84EA1D84F&index=75

As a five-point Wesleyan, may I suggest those who advocate Predestination/Reprobation read John Wesley's famous sermon on the topic.

[url=http://new.gbgm-umc.org/umhistory/wesley/sermons/58/]Sermon 58: Predestination[/url]

If possible read it out aloud so that you get some sense of the passion which lies within it.

The only thing that is confusing me in all of this discussion (on this thread and others), is this point:

If there is one thing we can be absolutely certain of is that God is NOT the author of sin&evil -- by author I do not mean that God did not create sin&evil, for He has always had knowledge of both good and evil ([b]Genesis 3:22[/b]), but I mean this:

[b]James 1
13.[/b] Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.
[b]14.[/b] But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.
[b]15.[/b] Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
[b]16.[/b] Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.
[b]17.[/b] Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow.

And yet, do we not find it so fascinating that we are explaining doctrines of God in such a manner that it is a great mystery to us how God could not possibly be the author of sin; with the exception of those who have come right out and said God in fact is -- which is bizarre.

Is it honestly a mystery how God could not be the author of man's sin? I guess it depends on how deterministic our theology is when we interpret the scriptures.

Or might we say, "No, no, God does not tempt anyone with sin, He commands it."

This was a great post. It has really cleared alot up for me. I never saw that In Isaiah 53, Praise God! That is a great revelation!

I do not find election or predestination hard to be understood. In fact, I think scripture is clear on it, and what God has revealed to us is simple enough that a child could understand. The child may not like what God has revealed, but he can understand. And, no doubt, that child will not like what God has revealed until he allows God to slay his preconceived notions of who He is.

Amen.

tjservant wrote:

I do not find election or predestination hard to be understood. In fact, I think scripture is clear on it, and what God has revealed to us is simple enough that a child could understand. The child may not like what God has revealed, but he can understand. And, no doubt, that child will not like what God has revealed until he allows God to slay his preconceived notions of who He is.

Amen.

Poor child if he/she gets hung up into confusion over the doctrine of poor misguided souls leading others into the errors of the doctrines of men.

I believe it would be best to teach children John 3:16 and the bible truth that sets men free and not confuse them with wondering what category they might be in before the foundation of the world.

I thank God that everybody who truly believes are saved and that everybody can be the one who believes. Everybody can put their name in the place of the whosoever, because what God says to one, he says to all. There is no respecter of persons with God only misguided souls.

I am so glad that the only mediator between God and man is the man Christ Jesus. He does not confuse people. He does not speak as mere men speak. He does not want anybody to ever think that he didn't die for them. He will have all men to be saved. Praise his holy name!

There is nobody here now that was there before the foundation of the world giving God any counsel nor receiving any understanding. We better quit trying to figure out what God was thinking before the foundation of the world and get on with the responsibility of believing in His Son in the here and now.

As a five-point Wesleyan, may I suggest those who advocate Predestination/Reprobation read John Wesley's famous sermon on the topic. Sermon 58: Predestination If possible read it out aloud so that you get some sense of the passion which lies within it.

I exhort you to read George Whitefield's letter to John Wesley entitled "No, dear Sir, you mistake."
http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/wesley.htm

I also recommend these following article on the subjetc:

[1] John Gill's response to Mr. Wesley’s view of predestination.

http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/Sermons&Tracts/sermon_07.htm

[2] Spurgeon's sermon on "Predestination and Calling"
http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0241.htm

[3] John Bunyan's article on "Reprobation Asserted
[url=http://acacia.pair.com/Acacia.John.Bunyan/Sermons.Allegories/Reprobation.Asserted/index.html]Reprobation Asserted[/url]

The words Predestination and Reprobation are in your KJV bible.

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. -Romans 8:29-31

"Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will." -Ephesians 1:5

"In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will." -Ephesians 1:11

"Reprobate silver shall men call them, because the LORD hath rejected them." -Jeremiah 6:30

"And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient." -Romans 1:21

"Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?" -2 Corinthians 13:5

"Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith." -2 Timothy 3:8

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." -Titus 1:16

-Abraham

He does not want anybody to ever think that he didn't die for them. He will have all men to be saved. Praise his holy name!

I understand your concerns and it is my desire to be patient with you and gentle in my response. If any wicked man dare say "Christ has not died for me"... we may say with Luther, "Thou, too, art part of the world, so that thine heart cannot deceive itself and think, The Lord died for Peter and Paul, but not for me."

If there be any poor soul that feels that Christ would never die for them. We may say with Spurgeon, "Will you answer me a question or two, and I will tell you whether He died for you. Do you want a Saviour? Do you feel that you need a Saviour? Are you this morning conscious of sin? Has the Holy Spirit taught you that you are lost? Then Christ died for you and you will be saved. Are you this morning conscious that you have no hope in the world but Christ? Do you feel that you of yourself cannot offer an atonement that can satisfy God's justice? Have you given up all confidence in yourselves? And can you say upon your bended knees, "Lord, save, or I perish"? Christ died for you. If you are saying this morning, "I am as good as I ought to be; I can get to Heaven by my own good works," then, remember, the Scripture says of Jesus, "I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." So long as you are in that state I have no atonement to preach to you. But if this morning you feel guilty, wretched, conscious of your guilt, and are ready to take Christ to be your only Saviour, I can not only say to you that you may be saved, but what is better still, that you will be saved. When you are stripped of everything, but hope in Christ, when you are prepared to come empty-handed and take Christ to be your all, and to be yourself nothing at all, then you may look up to Christ, and you may say, "Thou dear, Thou bleeding Lamb of God! thy griefs were endured for me; by thy stripes I am healed, and by thy sufferings I am pardoned." And then see what peace of mind you will have; for if Christ has died for you, you cannot be lost."
(quoted from Spurgeon's sermon "Particular Redemption")

Spurgeon says elsewhere, "A redemption which pays a price, but does not ensure that which is purchased -- a redemption which calls Christ a substitute for the sinner, but yet which allows the person to suffer - is altogether unworthy of our apprehensions of Almighty God. It offers no homage to his wisdom, and does despite to his covenant faithfulness. We could not and would not receive such a travesty of divine truth as that would be. There is no ground for any comfort whatever in it. (Charles Haddon Spurgeon, Sermons, Vol. 49, p. 39)

We must let every lost soul hear of the Soveriegn grace of God. God does not hide His scripture from us. So, why should we hide it from the lost? My friend it is through the death of Christ that we are saved. We do not make Christ's finished work effectual upon us. He makes it effectual upon whom He will. For the Holy Spirit says through the mouth of Paul,
"What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us." -Romans 8:29-34

Who is the Holy Spirit speaking of when He says, "He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?"

The Holy Spirit tells us exactly who they are as He says, "Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us."

Furthermore, the Holy Spirit precedes this thought by saying, "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." -Romans 8:29-30

Regarding God's "gospel will" (which you may understand at this time through the word and grace of God)... Yes, he does command all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel.

Regarding God's Sovereign Electing Love, He has chosen a number of which no man can number out of every kindred, tongue tribe, and nation. (See Rev 5:9, It's true my friend) In this sense He has died for the whole world and He will draw the world unto himself.

A believer may have assurance that He is among God's eternally beloved. The wicked can have no assurance of God's eternal love, unless the Spirit of God manifests it unto them by granting them a new heart of Faith in the gospel.

It is foolish for us to tell the wicked, "You are saved!" So also, it is foolish to tell the wicked that God has reconciled them through the death of His Son. Scripture never asserts these promises to Every wicked person. God commands all the wicked to believe on Him who justifies the ungodly. But, never does God assert that his atonement is made effectual by their will and running. (Read Romans 9) But, rather the promises are only to believers and they only can be assured of the promises of God.

Every believer is already born of God. There is no such thing as a whosoever believer that is not born of God. (read Rom 3 and 1Jn 5:1)

"Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus." -Rom 3:25-26

The following is from an article which I posted a the link to in the intro:

The implications of believing in a universal atonement or a general ransom.
Many will be eternally separated from Christ for whom He...

1. was their sacrificial atonement (payment for sin) 1 John 2:2
2. was their ransom (redemption price) Matthew 20:28
3. had paid their ransom in full Ephesians 1:7
4. gave forgiveness (liberty, pardon, freedom, deliverance from sins) Matthew 26:28
5. was manifested 1 Peter 1:20
6. redeemed from the curse of the law Galatians 3:13
7. bought with a price 1 Corinthians 6:20
8. obtained eternal redemption Hebrews 9:12
9. gave Himself to deliver them Galatians 1:4
10. brought to glory Hebrews 2:10
11. delivered from fear of death Hebrews 2:15
12. destroyed death Hebrews 2:14
13. reconciled (restored to Divine favor and made fully right Romans 5:10
14. did not impute their sins to them 2 Corinthians 5:19
15. made peace by the blood of His cross Ephesians 2:13-16
16. offered Himself to perfect them forever Hebrews 10:14
17. prayed Hebrews 7:25 & John 17
18. was their Passover (lit. victim) 1 Corinthians 5:7
19. took away their sins John 1:29 & Col. 2:13-14
20. put away their sin (lit. canceled) Hebrews 9:26
21. bore their sin (lit. carried away) 1 Peter 2:24
22. healed them by His stripes (lit. mended by stitching) Isaiah 53:5
23. was their testator (will writer) Hebrews 9:16-17
24. gave His life for their life John 6:51
25. purchased [peripoiomai] (lit. bought) Acts 20:28
26. sanctified [hagiadzo] (made holy) Ephesians 5:26-27
27. cleansed with His own blood [katharidzo] (to purify) Ephesians 5:26
28. appointed for salvation 1 Thessalonians 5:9
29. said would live together with Him because of His death 1 Thessalonians 5:10
30. was separated from their Father Matthew 27:46
31. finished His work [teleo] (completely paid the debt) John 19:30

The redemptive work of Christ on the cross was effectual for His people (the Church - consisting of Jews and Gentiles).

For a person to say that Christ paid the penalty for sins of those that will burn in hell forever, or to say that a born again believer could lose their salvation is seems to nullify the finished work of Christ on the cross.

Romans 8:31-34 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. 34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Hallelujah!

[color=CC0000][b]RED FLAG[/b][/color]

boG wrote:

If there is one thing we can be absolutely certain of is that God is NOT the author of sin & evil -- by author I do not mean that God did not create sin & evil, for He has always had knowledge of both good and evil

Even though God knew about evil, He never knew evil.

What is the relevance of James 1:13-17?

[b]James 1:4[/b] [color=990000]Now each one is undergoing trial when he is drawn away and lured by his own desire.[/color]
[b]15.[/b] Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.[/color]

IOW,
But each one is enticed by his own longings/desires, (this is not bad, until the enticing is to sin.) being drawn away (from the right path or away from Christ) by being seduced with them (by the [b]unlawful[/b] things which entices)

(this "being drawn away & seduced" is actually being tempted to go away, not actually leaving yet.)
Then, when longing/desire is conceived (taken hold of the thing desired for selfish reasons without any regard for anyone else), it brings forth sin, and that to death.

And yet, do we not find it so fascinating that we are explaining doctrines of God in such a manner that it is a great mystery to us how God could not possibly be the author of sin;

I enjoy those writings of Spurgeon. What do you think of this?

Ro 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Ro 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Ro 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Ro 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

I realize that God has to give aid for anyone to believe and he can blind a person from believing for his ultimate purpose, but when God was saying, if they remain not still in unbelief, he was saying there was a possibility for them to believe and the responsibility was on them. The problem is with people who think this thing is fixed without any responsibility on man’s part is seemingly ridiculous.

I fear God and will strive to continue in His goodness with humility and faith. I am going to keep trusting in him daily and not in myself and definitely not think I am someone too special to be cutoff, because I’m one of those…no sir, we stand by faith.

The bible is clear that it is unbelief that will cause anybody to be lost forever. The responsibility to believe is on man. The responsibility for regeneration is on God. Notice the fear and humbleness required here in these passages and how we are to stand by faith. Notice also what God said about Israel “if they abide not still in unbelief”, brother let us not get the cart ahead of the horse. Faith comes before regeneration. God does not do away with man’s responsibility to believe for some and make it impossible for others to never be able to believe.

From Webster's 1828 Dictionary

AU'THOR, n. [L. auctor. The Latin word is from the root of augeo, to increase, or cause to enlarge. The primary sense is one who brings or causes to come forth.]

1. One who produces, creates, or brings into being; as, God is the author of the Universe.

2. The beginner, former, or first mover of any thing; hence, the efficient cause of a thing. It is appropriately applied to one who composes or writes a book, or original work, and in a more general sense, to one whose occupation is to compose and write books; opposed to compiler or translator.

AU'THOR, v.t. To occasion; to effect.

AU'THORSHIP, n. [author and ship.] The quality or state of being an author.

AUTHOR'ITY, n. [L. auctoritas.]

1. Legal power, or a right to command or to act; as the authority of a prince over subjects, and of parents over children. Power; rule; sway.

2. The power derived from opinion, respect or esteem; influence of character or office; credit; as the authority of age or example, which is submitted to or respected, in some measure, as a law, or rule of action. That which is claimed in justification or support of opinions and measures.

3. Testimony; witness; or the person who testifies; as, the Gospels or the evangelists are our authorities for the miracles of Christ.

4. Weight of testimony; credibility; as a historian of no authority.

5. Weight of character; respectability; dignity; as a magistrate of great authority in the city.

6. Warrant; order; permission.

By what authority dost thou these things. Mat 21. Acts 9.

7. Precedents, decisions of a court, official declarations, respectable opinions and says, also the books that contain them, are called authorities, as they influence the opinions of others; and in law, the decisions of supreme courts have a binding force upon inferior courts, and are called authorities.

Right it is to acknowledge God as The Author,posessing Authorship,and as being The Authority.

I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me: I am the Lord, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together: I the Lord have created it. Isa. 45:5-8, KJV

Remember the former things of old, For I am God and there is no other; I am God and there is none like Me. Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure,’ Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it. Isa. 46:9-11

Yet he is in one minde, & who can turne him? yea, he doeth what his minde desireth. For he will performe that, which is decreed of me, and many such things are with him. Therefore I am troubled at his presence, & in considering it, I am afraid of him. For God hath softened mine heart, & the Almightie hath troubled me. Job 23:13-16(Geneva Bible)

But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass through, for the Lord your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, that He might deliver him into your hand, as it is this day. Deut. 2:30

But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him. And Saul’s servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee. 1 Sam. 16:14,15 KJV

As streams of waters, the king's heart is in the hand of Jehovah; He turns it wherever He desires.
Prov. 21:1

Then you shall say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord: "Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land—even the kings who sit on David’s throne, the priests, the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem—with drunkenness! And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together," says the LORD. "I will not pity nor spare nor have mercy, but will destroy them."’" Jer. 13:13,14

Out of the mouth of the Most High proceedeth not evil and good? Lam. 3:38 KJV

For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. Col. 1:16; Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it. Col. 2:15

What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, Rom. 9:22,23

But when He was alone, those around Him with the twelve asked Him about the parable, And He said to them,"To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables, so that ‘Seeing they may see and not perceive, And hearing they may hear and not understand; Lest they should turn, And their sins be forgiven them.’" Mark 4:10-12

When he is judged, let him be found guilty. And let his prayer become sin. Let his days be few, and let another take his office. Let his children be fatherless, and his wife a widow. Let his children continually be vagabonds, and beg; Let them seek their bread also from their desolate places. Let the creditor seize all that he has, And let strangers plunder his labor. Let there be none to extend mercy to him, Nor let there be any to favor his fatherless children. Let his posterity be cut off, And in the generation following let their name be blotted out. Let the iniquity of his fathers be remembered before the LORD, and let not the sin of his mother be blotted out. Let them be continually before the LORD, That He may cut off the memory of them from the earth. Ps. 109:7-15

But You, O GOD the Lord, Deal with me for Your name’s sake; Because Your mercy is good, deliver me. Ps. 109:21

Oh, that You would slay the wicked, O God! Depart from me, therefore, you bloodthirsty men. For they speak against You wickedly; Your enemies take Your name in vain. Do I not hate them, O LORD, who hate You? And do I not loathe those who rise up against You? I hate them with perfect hatred; I count them my enemies. Ps. 139:19-22

Since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 2 Thess. 1:6,7

But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive. Gen. 50:20

Shall the trumpet be blown in a city, and the people not be afraid? Shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord hath not done it? Amos 3:6 KJV

It is the philosophy of Plato that God cannot create evil, not the teaching of scripture.

The Platonic assumption that God cannot create evil is one reason why men have come up with alternate systems of doctrine from the Bible.

When God says,"Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it", it is an act of commission(whether through secondary causes or directly)and not of mere permission.

Those who advocate a mere permission on God's part and at the same time attempt to hold to God's absolute sovereignty cannot do so.

Would to God that He'd reveal the incongruousness of such a position. That many would stop trying to defend Him, and as children let the Scriptures themselves answer this theodicy.

He does not hide Himself but Has plainly spoken and shown Himself to "do all these things".

I realize that God has to give aid for anyone to believe and he can blind a person from believing for his ultimate purpose, but when God was saying, if they remain not still in unbelief, he was saying there was a possibility for them to believe and the responsibility was on them. The problem is with people who think this thing is fixed without any responsibility on man’s part is seemingly ridiculous.

True and well said. Man is responsible.

I fear God and will strive to continue in His goodness with humility and faith. I am going to keep trusting in him daily and not in myself and definitely not think I am someone too special to be cutoff, because I’m one of those…no sir, we stand by faith.

Keep in mind, that the scriptural doctrine of Election has nothing to do with God seeing something special in us. But, it has everything to do with God being the Author and finisher of our Faith.

The Faith that we must stand by, is a hope in His gospel promises. I encourage you that your Faith and hope must be in God's sure and steadfast promises as well as His sure and steadfast warnings. God cannot lie. If your Faith is not steadfast in the promise that God will finish the work He began in you, then your Faith will be little, because you will begin to look to yourself for strength and victory. By the Fear of God we depart from evil. Faith works a love for righteousness and a hatred towards evil. Someone who has Faith that God will never leave them nor forsake them, will also have the Fear of God in their heart. Faith must have hope in the promises of God. Hope in the strength of our will and running capabilities is a Faith that is void of hope. For there is no hope, if Salvation depends upon the will and running of man.

Consider, how do you know that tomorrow you won't wake up hating God? How do you know that a year from now you won't forsake God by utterly denying Him? How do you know that you will remain in Christ if you could utterly fall away and alas end up in hell?

One might answer, "Yes, I have faith and I know that in me there is enough will power and strength to finish the race. Therefore I believe I shall finish well."

Do you not see that, such a man is hoping in himself and his faith is directed to himself rather than the promises of God?

You stand by Faith, and that Faith is a gift of God. Be not high minded. But, fear God. For it is God that holds you up through his gift of Faith. And that Faith is not of yourself.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." [Eph 2:8-10]

This a clip from an article,

STATEMENTS AND PROMISES OF GOD THAT WOULD BE NULLIFIED IF ONE COULD LOSE THEIR SALVATION.

Please confer errors with respective scriptural refutations.

ERROR vs. TRUTH

1. He is not able to perform what He had promised Romans 4:21
2. He will not present me blameless 1 Thessalonians 5:24
3. He did not predestine me unto the adoption as a child Ephesians 1:5
4. There is condemnation for me even though I am in Christ Jesus Romans 8:1
5. Christ has not risen from the dead Romans 6:8-12
6. The Holy Spirit will take back His deposit Ephesians 1:13-14
7. The Holy Spirit did not seal us 2 Corinthians 1:22
8. He will leave me and He will forsake me Hebrews 13:5
9. He will not keep me from falling Jude 24
10. He will not preserve me forever Psalm 37:28
11. The truth (Jesus Christ) will not be with me forever 2 John 2
12. He did not cleanse me from all unrighteousness 1 John 1:9
13. His foundation is not sure 2 Timothy 2:19
14. He does not know them that are His 2 Timothy 2:19
15. He will cast me out John 6:37
16. He did not perfect me Hebrews 10:14
17. His prayer for me was not answered John 17:11-12
18. He is not interceding for me Hebrews 7:25
19. He did not complete the work He began in me Philippians 1:6
20. My life is not hid with Christ in God Colossians 3:3
21. I have not passed from death unto life John 5:24
22. He is not able to keep that which I have committed to Him 2 Timothy 1:12
23. I am not at peace with God Romans 5:1
24. I can be plucked out of His hand John 10:28-29
25. I can be separated from the love of God Romans 8:39
26. His righteousness is not everlasting Psalm 119:142
27. His love is not everlasting Jeremiah 31:3
28. He is not immutable Hebrews 6:18
29. He did not keep His promise Hebrews 6:17
30. He is a liar Titus 1:2

The consequences of believing a person can lose their salvation create obvious theological problems that contradict scripture. For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect? Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. Romans 3:3-4a

Source: http://www.eschatology.com/eternal.html

Biblical Perseverance includes gospel promises and gospel warning of which true Faith take heeds to.

Hence brother Nathan Pitchford quotes these Word's of God in is artilce,

God’s preservation of the saints is not irrespective of their continuance in the faith

1Cor 6:9-10 "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

Gal 5:19-21 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."

Eph 5:5 "For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God."

Heb 3:14 "For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end."

Heb 6:4-6 "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

Heb 10:26-27 "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries."

Heb 12:14 "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord."

Rev 21:7-8 "He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

Rev 22:14-15 "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie."

However, it is God who sanctifies us and causes us to persevere

John 15:16 "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you."

1Cor 1:30-31 "But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord."

1Cor 6:11 "And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

1Cor 12:3 "Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost."

1Cor 15:10 "But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me."

Gal 3:1-6 "O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. 5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."

Eph 2:10 "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

Phi 2:12-13 "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

1The 5:23-24 "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it."

Heb 13:20-21 "Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen."

1John 2:29 "If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him."

Jud 1:24-25 "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen."

Source: see intro to thread
Nathan Pitchford: http://pitchfordsramblings.com/who-we-are-and-what-we-believe/

Consider thes sobering words from Spurgeon,

"I do not serve the god of the Arminians at all; I have nothing to do with him, and I do not bow down before the Baal they have set up; he is not my God, nor shall he ever be; I fear him not, nor tremble at his presence...The God that saith today and denieth tomorrow, that justifieth today and condemns the next...is no relation to my God in the least degree. He may be a relation of Ashtaroth or Baal, but Jehovah never was or can be his name."
-Charles Spurgeon

The Arminians tell us that a man may receive
spiritual life, and yet may die eternally.

That is to say, a man may be forgiven, and yet be punished
afterwards; he may be justified from all sin, and yet after that,
his transgressions can be laid on his shoulders again;
a man may be born of God, and yet die in his sins; a man may
be loved of God today, and yet God may hate him tomorrow.

Oh! I cannot bear to speak of such lies.
As for me, I so deeply believe in the immutable love
of Jesus that I suppose that if one believer were to be in hell,
Christ himself would not long stay in heaven, but would cry,
"To the rescue!"

Oh! if Jesus Christ were in glory with one the gems lacking
in his crown, and Satan had that gem, Satan would say,
"Aha! prince of light and glory, I have one of your jewels!"
and he would hold it up, and then he would say,
"Aha! you died for this man, but you had not strength enough
to save him; you loved him once--where is your love?
It is not worth having, for you then hate him afterwards!"

And how would Satan chuckle over that 'heir of heaven',
and hold him up, and say, "This man was redeemed;
Jesus Christ purchased him with his blood!"
And plunging him in the waves of hell, he would say,
"There 'purchased one' see how I can rob the Son of God!"
And then again he would say, "This man was forgiven, behold
the justice of God! He is to be punished again after he is
forgiven. Christ suffered for this man's sins once, and yet"
says Satan with a malignant joy, "I have him now;
for God exacted the punishment twice!"

Shall that ever be said? Ah! no!
Arminian, go away with your vile gospel.
My Master said, "I give unto my sheep ETERNAL life,
and they shall never perish, neither shall any man
pluck them out of my hands."

Let the Arminian go and preach his 'gospel'.
Let them go and tell poor sinners, that if they believe in Jesus
they may be damned after all, that Jesus Christ will forgive
them and yet the Father may afterwards send them to hell.

(Spurgeon, "The Two Effects of the Gospel")

Blessings,

-Abraham

EDIT: spell check and sentence grammar

Quote: And yet, do we not find it so fascinating that we are explaining doctrines of God in such a manner that it is a great mystery to us how God could not possibly be the author of sin;

Could you explain this?
Are you actually saying that God is the author of sin?
Or am I misunderstanding your point?
Are you saying that with the verse which you quoted from James, "how could anyone possibly say that God is the author of sin."

I am not saying God is the author of sin. I think it rather gross to entertain a notion that God should tempt or command people to sin. So I was criticizing how interesting it is that God is being described in such a manner that it should appear a great mystery to some, that while most of us say God is not the author of sin, many of these arguments would on the contrary lead us to believe He is.

STATEMENTS AND PROMISES OF GOD THAT WOULD BE NULLIFIED IF ONE COULD LOSE THEIR SALVATION...
The consequences of believing a person can lose their salvation create obvious theological problems that contradict scripture. For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect? Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. Romans 3:3-4a

Hm, I don't know about this statement.

The Arminians tell us that a man may receive
spiritual life, and yet may die eternally.

That is to say, a man may be forgiven, and yet be punished
afterwards; he may be justified from all sin, and yet after that,
his transgressions can be laid on his shoulders again;
a man may be born of God, and yet die in his sins; a man may
be loved of God today, and yet God may hate him tomorrow.

Oh! I cannot bear to speak of such lies.
As for me, I so deeply believe in the immutable love
of Jesus that I suppose that if one believer were to be in hell,
Christ himself would not long stay in heaven, but would cry,
"To the rescue!"

What about when Jesus said in His parable,
[b]Matthew 18
21.[/b] Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
[b]22.[/b] Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
[b]23.[/b] Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
[b]24.[/b] And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
[b]25.[/b] But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
[b]26.[/b] The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
[b]27.[/b] Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
[b]28.[/b] But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
[b]29.[/b] And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
[b]30.[/b] And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
[b]31.[/b] So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
[b]32.[/b] Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
[b]33.[/b] Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
[b]34.[/b] And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
[b]35. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.[/b]

Notice, the servant was forgiven his "unpayable debt" and then the debt was reinstated because he did not go and do likewise. This is where it might be of interest to mention the preaching of Charles Finney ... and before there are any "Pelagian" comments, I have looked over many of the criticisms in this regard and do not find them to be substantiated in context to that claim. Either way (if he was or wasn't) I find it strange how Finney would say salvation is by grace through faith alone and not of works and then we are to told to believe he continues his teachings attempting to claim that we are saved by works ... Anyways, to the point.

Here the servant was delivered (saved) from the judgment of his condemnation and not by any works he had done but on the sole basis of the King's compassion.

[b]2 Peter 2
20.[/b] For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
[b]21.[/b] For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
[b]22.[/b] It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A dog returns to its own vomit," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."

Let the Arminian go and preach his 'gospel'.
Let them go and tell poor sinners, that if they believe in Jesus
they may be damned after all, that Jesus Christ will forgive
them and yet the Father may afterwards send them to hell.

For the record, I would currently label myself leaning towards Molinism; not Arminianism or Calvinism; but to be fair, Calvinists essentially say the same thing with different words, ie. "They were never regenerated or born-again after all" or "They departed from us because they were never one of us."

Arminians tend to focus on the scriptures that commend us all to perservere, for only those who overcome shall inherit eternal life; that is, those scriptures which warn of the broad path unto hell and God's abiding wrath upon the ungodly.
[b]Revelation 3:5[/b], "He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels."

Calvinists tend to focus on those scriptures that only have to do with those who shall in the end attain the prize of eternal life (the elect); that is, those scriptures which encourage us on the narrow path unto eternal life and God's abounding grace.

I guess we might even say this is, in a manner, an emphasis either on the life lived and then the life to come or rather the life to come and then the life lived here and now.

Honestly, I agree with both positions. I believe those who perservere in faith shall stand unshaken and thus remain to be perfected in holiness in the fear of the Lord by the sovereign grace of God. And I would also say those who consider lightly the blood of Christ shall not stand by their testimony, as [b]2 Peter 1:9[/b] says, "For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins." I would say these are in danger of being those wherein the seeds of the word of Christ rooted and sprang up in their hearts but the life of it was choked out of them.

I probably just kicked up a hornet's nest :-P

What about when Jesus said in His parable, Matthew 18 21. Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? 22. Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven. 23. Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24. And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. 25. But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. 26. The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. 27. Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt. 28. But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. 29. And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. 30. And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt. 31. So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. 32. Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: 33. Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? 34. And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

I can tell you what it doesn't mean.

It could not mean that a born again child of God may perish in the end:

1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

If your born of God, you...
1. Sinneth not
2. keepeth yourself
3. And that wicked one toucheth you not

Those who are born of God cannot practice habitual sin.

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Notice the very reason why they cannot... it is because they are born of God...

Not because of their keeping themselves and sinnething not. Though they do keepeth themselves and sinneth not... this is not the foundation of their hope. The Foundation of their hope is in the finished work of Jesus and that God has promised that the work he began will be victorious.

Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Matthew Henry (A Calvinistic Puritan) wrote this concerning this verse,
"The danger of not forgiving; So shall your heavenly Father do. (1.) This is not intended to teach us that God reverses his pardons to any, but that he denies them to those that are unqualified for them, according to the tenour of the gospel; though having seemed to be humbled, like Ahab, they thought themselves, and others thought them, in a pardoned state, and they made bold with the comfort of it. Intimations enough we have in scripture of the forfeiture of pardons, for caution to the presumptuous; and yet we have security enough of the continuance of them, for comfort to those that are sincere, but timorous; that the one may fear, and the other may hope. Those that do not forgive their brother's trespasses, did never truly repent of their own, nor ever truly believe the gospel; and therefore that which is taken away is only what they seemed to have, Luk_8:18. (2.) This is intended to teach us, that they shall have judgment without mercy, that have showed no mercy, Jam_2:13. It is indispensably necessary to pardon and peace, that we not only do justly, but love mercy. It is an essential part of that religion which is pure and undefiled before God and the Father, of that wisdom from above, which is gentle, and easy to be entreated. Look how they will answer it another day, who, though they bear the Christian name, persist in the most rigorous and unmerciful treatment of their brethren, as if the strictest laws of Christ might be dispensed with for the gratifying of their unbridled passions; and so they curse themselves every time they say the Lord's prayer."

-Abraham

For the record, I would currently label myself leaning towards Molinism

http://www.monergism.com/directory/search.php?action=search_links_simple&search_kind=and&phrase=Molinism&B1=Go

Abe,
thank you brother, you are co worker with me for the gosple. Praise Be to God because of you. You are greaty loved by Christ Jesus. Keep speaking truth, with humility and gentleness. God shares his glory with no other. I see your love and zeal for the Lord, and it greaty honored. He has called you and made known his truth you. You have been faithfull to share these wonderful truth to those you care for and love, our beloved brothers. Be in much prayer, for then comes power. Great is our God, Great is the gosple,
Much be all the more passionate and bold to speak the gosple right, never adding or taking away.

I am praying for you Brother, to have wisdom, grace and humility in all your words. Don't grow weary in writting but trst in the Lord who can bring you up again and again with his power. Preach the truth brother, with fire and passion and love that comes from God.

Glory to God.
Charlene