Hebrews 6:4-6

excellent passage.

When we read Hebrews the other day, I wondered about Peter denying Jesus 3 x's. Not sure of the application here. Anyone care to explain their view on it.

Also, reading of Christian's in Laos who have been forced to deny their Faith or see their children starve. What about that.

Not that this is a faith breaker for me but I am curious.

Thanks for posting, it opened a door for me to ask about these points.

Best regards,
white stone

"That was actually before Pentecost when the Holy Spirit filled Peter and the others. The verse is talking about Spirit filled christians."

Thank you, benjoseph,

I understand now. Praise the Lord!

ws

"That was actually before Pentecost when the Holy Spirit filled Peter and the others. The verse is talking about Spirit filled christians."

It could be that I did not get the intended meaning of the above statement.

The Lord Jesus said this before the pentecost:

Joh 14:17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.

Joh 14:18 "I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

Do you think that they had Christ in them instead of dwelling with them when they were filled with the Holy Spirit?

They dwell in them yes, and also dwells with them.

Do you think that denying Christ when he is living in you is a lot worse than what Peter wept over?

I am thinking that this is related to the context of Hebrew 6:4-6. Can you give enlightenment on these very controversial verses.

that verse is used by many to say that you can lose your salvation but in verse 9 paul reminds us christians that it is impossible for a true spirit filled christian to do so. It said something like i am persuaded better things of you and the things that accompany salvation. I do not think a true born again believer who has come to know jesus personally would ever want to leave him completely, maybe fall into sin but never leave him.

bible1985 wrote:
I do not think a true born again believer who has come to know jesus personally would ever want to leave him completely, maybe fall into sin but never leave him.

To sin is to leave Him. He does not accompany you to your sin or support it or have any part of it.

Those who love God keep his commandments, when we sin, fall is a bad word because it makes it sound like an accident. Sin is not. sin is willfull rebellion towards God. Yes there is unconcius sin to, but known sin is never an accident. It is a choice to leave God and chose SIN instead whatever, if it is fornication or a prideful thought. Its departure from God.

Repentance is returning....to return you must have left somewhere, in this case God.

hmmhmm said:

"Yes there is unconcius sin to, but known sin is never an accident."

Do you believe that there is a difference in the eyes of God?

BenK wrote:
hmmhmm said:

"Yes there is unconcius sin to, but known sin is never an accident."

Do you believe that there is a difference in the eyes of God?

Yes i do believe that

If lets say you commit adultery and murder someone, we know that is sin, but if you happend to take one minute to long luchbreak at work and you did not work when you was paid to. Unless you planed it that was theft and you stole from your company that you work for, such sin if accidental i think is not as severe as lets say you plan to do something you know God hates you doing.

i think god hates both sins, but i think their is a bigger sin than others most definitely. For even the smaller sins the holy spirit will speak to you and tell you to stop even with those.

http://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/1924_mauro_which-version.html

WHICH VERSION? AUTHORIZED OR REVISED?
(1924)

By Philip Mauro

The present inquiry is in regard to the many differences, some of them quite serious, between the "Authorized," or King James Version, first published in 1611, and the "Revised" Version of 1881. The total number of the departures of the latter from the former is over thirty-six thousand.

I agree with you. It is good to slow down in cases like this to avoid putting any stumbling block to others as well us to ourselves.

Reading Hebrews 6:4-6 can draw us to ask questions regarding the security of our salvation.

But let us not discuss formally at the moment about 'OSAS' or 'perseverance of the saints' as this will require an extensive cross-reference. Let us place our focus in this very 'episle to the hebrews'; its intended recipients, on what was the author's main theme/s, what were his pressing concerns at that time about this particular group of people.

This epistle was addressed to jewish christians, and one of the main purposes of the letter was to give insight to the relationships of the old covenant/testament and the new covenant/testament and within this theme that I am trying to look now at the context of Hebrews 6:4-6.

It is my understanding that it was not really the intention of the author to establish a doctrine about 'believers security' or regarding 'unpardonable actions or sin' with these verses. His concern was a 'crisis of belief' that could result to apostasy from 'the new covenant', to the drifting away from the 'message of grace and faith', to the renunciation of the gospel reverting back to Judaism.

This apostasy is like conspiring with those who crucified the Lord Jesus Christ, accusing Him of great lie, blasphemy, and that like a hardened criminal, He must be crucified and suffer an openly shameful death.

It is impossible to restore this kind of apostasy to our Lord, doing ritual sacrifices of the old testament, "For it is impossible that the blood of bulls and goats should take away sins" (Heb 10:4). There is no hope for a messiah, He had already come..."There remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins"(Heb 10:26).

Well, a very simplistic explanation, I hope it is not a stumbling block to anybody.

Clarification:

It is impossible to restore this kind of apostasy to our Lord, doing ritual sacrifices of the old testament,

What I mean is that repentance is but a futile effort for it is impossible to be restored to God by depending on those old testament rituals again.

i agree passerby on your intrpretation of the book of hebrews. Also hebrews ch. 10 verse 26 is pertaining to those jewish christians too.

bible1985 wrote:
i agree passerby on your intrpretation of the book of hebrews. Also hebrews ch. 10 verse 26 is pertaining to those jewish christians too.

do you mean it does not apply to us?

is there a difference between a gentile christian and a jesish christian?

if so, then we can not apply the letter of romans to us neither, since we are not romans, nor galatians or any other letter. since there is no letter to the swedish does that mean i have no scripture that applies to me?

what is written in hebrews is for all christians for all times, yes some aspects of the letter has some cultural aspects that need to be known. but some of the reasonings here are not good.

we should not explain away warnings in scripture with it does not apply to us since we are not jews.

they where born again christians by gods spirit. The letter to the hebrews apply to all in that group, regardless of ethnic group or culture.

we need a greter trembling at the word of God and less reasoning. We need more awe and reverence to what God has spoken. if a verse in hebrews dont 'match' your theology, dont reason away scripture to fit doctrine, better say, i do not know, yet...

God may reveal it some day, but until then we must not alter scripture or diminish it by saying ' it does not apply to me'

we will be judged by every word written in that book, no matter jew or gentile.

please do concider this.

AMEN!

Your post hit home, thank you for taking the time to enter it.

We do seem to reason away our awe of God, that is a significant point - the strongest point in your post, to me. The human language and understanding is not capable of total understanding or explaining away the mysteries of God. I believe the practice of falling on your face before God should be reestablished. There do not seem to be many humble Christian's around, pointing at myself here, too. Our worldly knowledge and learning has puffed us up and done it's best to explain away all the glory. (Excuse me, I get a little carried away on this subject)

Praise the Lord!
ws

Hebrews 6
1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

3And this will we do, if God permit.

4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

7For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

8But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

9But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

if you read verse 9 paul is hinting at the reality of true salvation of a believer and how a this would not happen to a believer. You have to read the book of hebrews in the context my friends.

26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

This is talking of someone who is trying to be justified by the law and yes he was talking to the hebrews here. Why is at a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God without Christ, because they our trying to be justified by their own merit and by their own works and they our left as sinful men in front of a holy God who can have nothing to do with not even one of their sins. You all seem to talk as if that we can fall in and out of our salvation but if hebrews ch.6 was at all warning us of that you would not be able to come back in repentance. A true believer sins but our lord will bring them back even if through chastizement.

bible1985 wrote:
This is talking of someone who is trying to be justified by the law and yes he was talking to the hebrews here. Why is at a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God without Christ, because they our trying to be justified by their own merit and by their own works and they our left as sinful men in front of a holy God who can have nothing to do with not even one of their sins. You all seem to talk as if that we can fall in and out of our salvation but if hebrews ch.6 was at all warning us of that you would not be able to come back in repentance. A true believer sins but our lord will bring them back even if through chastizement.

I dont think people fall out of salvation, i do believe as you seem to also believe many turn back from the narrow road and leave the way of salvation.

and he is not talking about being saved by works, he is talking about [i]dead works[/i] and how repentance from these are in the foundation of the christian faith. Even as this is in the foundation, yet many have very little or even none knowledge what a dead work is.

and about a true believer sins, i am speaking as one who has sinned many times, one who has turned my back on God many times and pursued my own interest instead of Gods. But i can not let that hinder me from saying this statement is not from scripture, yes a true beliver can sin, even sin a "terrible" sin so to say, but scripture also says

Jud 1:24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, And to present you faultless Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,

we dont [b]have[/b] to sin, you make it sound as it is something we have to do.

the letter of Hebrews also says this

Heb 2:18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted

there is help for those who are tempted, in this i have failed many times, instead of going to HIM who is able, and HIM who are more willing to aid me then i am in receiving his help. Instead i have tried fight it out on my own, and with sin as a result. But it dont [b]have[/b] to be so.

Hebrews also says this:

Heb 2:1 Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away.

drift away from what? the answer is in the following verses

Heb 2:2 For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward,
Heb 2:3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,

to me it is crystal clear, but i am worried for my own sake, and others that say "it is for the hebrews"

if it is so, then is justified by faith only for the romans?

Hebrews also gives this warning

Heb 12:25 See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven,
Heb 12:26 whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven."

once again I hope you would consider these things, not because i say them, but since they are found in scripture. I recommend reading the letter to the Hebrews in one sitting slowly and thoughtfully.

Grace and peace

Hi, pardon please for putting some things unclear, I (and I think bible1985 also) certainly do not mean that the book of hebrews would not apply to us, it just seemed to me that the key to interpretation of these difficult verses would be its historical setting or the original intent of the author. While the epistle was physically addressed to believing jews, the message could apply also to non-believing jews and to us, into parallel situations in our time.

Hebrews 4:1-16 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest,

""Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Again,"" These are the fallen away ones.

Hebrews 6:1-9 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit. For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

In Christ and the Father's Rest: Phillip

If you keep reading on to verses 7-8 you will see it references and parallels JESUS' words in Matthew 7:16-19 about the cofessors of CHRIST who bear bad fruit being thrown into the fire. Compare those passages.

Then in Matthew 7:23 JESUS says, "I NEVER KNEW YOU" - in other words it is a reference to those who were not saved despite their profession ("Lord, Lord") of faith. now go back and keep reading the next verse, Hebrews 6:9- "we are confident of BETTER THINGS in your case-things that accompany SALVATION.

So it is clear that Hebrews 6:4-6 is a reference to false converts. Those who were ONCE (not are) enlightened, Tasted (not partaken of) the Heavenly gift, SHARED (by virtue of being in the fellowship of believers) in the Holy Spirit, TASTED the goodness of the Word and the powers of the coming age but not SAVED since if they were saved and then lost then CHRIST would have to be re-crucified in order to re-save them.

If Bible1985 is right in saying that this passage is a reference to Hebrew professors of faith in CHRIST that were trying to be justified by their works, then this would make sense considering the people who profess, "Lord, Lord" in Matthew 7:22 are appealing to their works righteousness when they ask, "did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name and perform many miracles?"

amen and amen finally some brothers and sisters getting these verses intrpereted the right way. No offense to anyone but these interpretations of losing salvation especially in this verse is just plain wrong interpretation and not reading it through.

so if i get you right, only the verses that say we can not lose salvation are to us today, and the others to unsaved jews?

And for the passage in matt 7, you know the gospel of matthew was also written to jews?

I guess i will be one of those who God will say to on that final day "Son you took my scripture to serious and to literal"

can we apply the letter to the romans to us? since we are not romans?

You all seem to talk as if that we can fall in and out of our salvation

Nope that's not what we believe and that's not what Christian's been saying through out this thread.

Since the early Christians believed that our continued faith and obedience are necessary for salvation, it naturally follows that they believed that a “saved” person could still end up being lost. For example, Irenaeus, the pupil of Polycarp, wrote, “Christ will not die again on behalf of those who now commit sin because death shall no more have dominion over Him…. Therefore we should not be puffed up…. But we should beware lest somehow, after [we have come to] the knowledge of Christ, if we do things displeasing to God, we obtain no further forgiveness of sins but rather be shut out from His kingdom” (Heb. 6:4-6)

David Bercot from [i]will the real heretic please stand up[/i]

what i am trying to say , scripture says HE is able to save us to the utter most, and HE will finish what he started. I know you amen that, and so do I. But I will not neglect or turn away my eyes or mind from passages that are "disturbing". Some verses makes me sometimes go "Do I want a God like that?"

But scripture is scripture, we reason so much, and we cut and paste our bible as word document essay for a school project and select the verses [i]we[/i] like, and the ones we mention we do away with like "[i]that is for the unsaved hebrew people back in the day[/i]"

but not for me, since i am living in this age, when God is changed and [b]I[/b] am extra special, and God is going to deal with me in another way, I most certainly is not like the lasy servant, and I am not like the unforgiving man or that man or that warning or that one. No not me. I am only under these verses over here that makes me comfortable and feel good.

but if you are right, then we can through away all scripture, because not one single verse in the scriptures was written to gentile americans or swedish people 2000 years after.

Deu 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye [i]diminish[/i] ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

[i]Keep it pure, and do not add to it; keep it entire, and do not diminish from it. Not in practice, so some: “You shall not add by committing the evil which the law forbids, nor diminish by omitting the good which the law requires.” Not in opinion, so others: “You shall not add your own inventions, as if the divine institutions were defective, nor introduce, much less impose, any rites of religious worship other than what God has appointed; nor shall you diminish, or set aside, any thing that is appointed, as needless or superfluous.” God's work is perfect, nothing can be put to it, nor taken from it, without making it the worse.[/i] MH

Loosing salvation Is making it the childs fault for abortion. It is not the born again's responsibility for The Father's Seed, Incorruptable in the believer. It is God responsibility for His offspring, Thank God.
God is not an abortionist, but He allows it on this earth, to show that man is. Physically and spiritually. What a terrible thing man is. We cannot loose what is not ours to loose. A child cannot abort itself. We are offspring of God. Why, I will never understand, only knowing His unending Love for the want of offspring, God wants to be a Father, plain and simple and He even went so far as to kill His only begotten Son on the Cross to get us. What a price. And, you think He will allow His offspring to fall away? I don't think so.

Ac 17:28 For in Him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Ac 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Abortion of the Gift of God? "Christ in you the Hope of Glory"? This God laughs at because of mans devices to prove himself honorable to God and be responsible for his salvation, taking away Christ of the Cross.

Acts 17:30-34 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter. So Paul departed from among them.

Howbeit certain men clave unto Him, and believed: among the which was Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them.

They believed and God birthed His Seed, Jesus Christ in them.

Now: Acts 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

How do we attain perfection?

Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

His working in me will, He not abort me from His Family or kick me out of His House, This is why I labor for my Father and His Son, because of who He has made me in His Son.

In Christ: Phillip

what about the Jews in the desert? where they not his chosen elect people? dident HE save them? dident HE deliver them?

Was it Gods will they should rebel and that they would be left for dead in the desert? yet this was the case. This happened.

How about Saul? how about Salomon? a man who wrote several books of scripture but finally went to hell?

Quote:

"""what about the Jews in the desert? where they not his chosen elect people? dident HE save them? dident HE deliver them?"""

They were not birthed son's of God, they were only created son's of God, and are still an obstinate and non believing nation, to this day.

There is a difference in birthing and being created in Adam. Birthing takes a Father, creation takes a God with a Plan to birth His own offspring to fill His House. Who is preparing a place for us? Whom He has made, born again, birthed, not created, offspring of God our Father, son's of God, joint heirs with Jesus Christ, where we are already seated In Him in the Heavenlies, not a place yet, but a sphere of living in Christ Jesus by His Faith in us, unto the Father of our inheritance in Christ.

John 15:20-25 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also. But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me. If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin. He that hateth me hateth my Father also. If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father. But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.

This is leading those that believe by Gods' Grace to salvation and are kept in Jesus Christ, you cannot jump out of Gods Hand.

Romans 5:14-17 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

What are we saved by?

Galatians 3:22-29 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

When did Jesus Christ come?

Galatians 3:22-29 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Are we Christ's Seed of the Father?

1 Corinthians 13:10-13 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

If He is come, we no longer speak as children, We put away childish things. We are face to face, with the Son that is birthed in us, His Spirit is our Spirit, without which we are "none of His". His Mind is our mind, which the Holy Spirit is renewing each day, to the mind of Christ, in our soul-mind to His mind.

By whose Faith are we saved?

Ephesians 2:1-10 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

How do we walk in them? We were predestinated to walk in them by "our Father".

We are not predestinated to heaven or hell, but to walk in the good works of The Christ that is in us. This is our predestination. "In Christ the Hope of Glory". Col 1:27 God's predestination of Christ in us and our walking in Him by His power, will never abort our salvation.

Ephesians 1:3-11 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

In Christ: Phillip

Does it actually say Solomon went to hell?

The Jews in the desert were not washed in Jesus' Blood were they?

questions,
white stone

White_Stone wrote:
Does it actually say Solomon went to hell?

The Jews in the desert were not washed in Jesus' Blood were they?

questions,
white stone

Well id does not say he repented, and seeing God wrote to us more wicked kings then solomon repented but not saying to us that solomon did.

if he repented God would have put it in the bible for us, but since he never repented, i must assume he went to hell, as will all who do not repent.

And as for the Jews in the desert, no not in the same sense i guess as you or I, but I guess in the same sense as Abraham and the others that lived before Christ. Then they where. Christ blood was shed before the foundations of the earth.

And Gods word warns us to be like them, provoking God. And God does not make empty threaths as we do often. God is serious

Thank you for your reply.

". . . if he repented God would have put it in the bible for us, but since he never repented, i must assume he went to hell, as will all who do not repent."

Cautioning you against making assumptions. (if he repented - then God would have put it in the Bible).
_______
"And Gods word warns us to be like them, provoking God. And God does not make empty threaths as we do often. God is serious"

Not wanting to assume, it seems you accidentally leave out the word, [color=FF0000]not[/color]? As in being warned not to be like them?

regards,
white stone

I feel better knowing Solomon is safe. I love reading his books and to read them and think he was rejected would be too painful.

Kindest regards,
white stone

The killing of lambs for sacrifice, after receiving the blood of Jesus, was the sin hebrews was warning of, trampling on the blood of Jesus.
These jewish converts were being led astray and back under the Law for there justification, they had not resisted sin to the point of blood. Or they hadn't resisted this false teaching to the point of persecution.
Galations is very close to this , only they were gentiles, the Jews were trying to get them circumcised.

Love in CHRIST tom

hmmhmm that doesn't even make any sense. It is a parallel passage with the one in Matthew 7. regardless of whether they were both written to Jews the point is that there are false professors of CHRIST and it is clear when you look at how the one passage clarifies it's parallel that Hebrews 6:4-6 is not talking about saved people loosing their salvation. In light of so many other passages that show people cannot cease to be new creations in CHRIST, loose eternal life, or become un-born again (The chain of redemption in Rom 8:30, the words of CHRIST in John 6, etc.) it is clear that this is the meaning of Hebrews 6:4-6. There are no irreconcilable paradoxes in the Scriptures.

Solomon wrote three books in Scripture in his lifetime – two of them - Proverbs and Song of Solomon - are like new covenant books in the Old Testament. Proverbs is the finest book in the Old Testament. All young people should read it regularly and frequently. It has 31 chapters. Read a chapter a day and it can preserve you from much evil. Song of Solomon is a wonderful picture of our devotion to Jesus Christ as His bride. Ecclesiastes was written after Solomon had drifted. In it, he warns us about the dangers of worldly wisdom. This man who wrote three wonderful books of the Bible finally went to hell! Don't imagine that everyone who stands up and preaches wonderful sermons will go to heaven.

How do we know that Solomon went to hell? Is it possible that the Holy Spirit would write two biographies of Solomon (1 Kings and 2 Chronicles), and not mention in either of them that he repented towards the end of his life, if he had actually done so. Such silence is very eloquent. It tells us that Solomon died unrepentant. Manasseh was a king who did much greater evil than Solomon, and for a much longer period of time. But at the end of his life he repented, and the Holy Spirit mentions it in Scripture. It is unthinkable that the Holy Spirit would not have mentioned it, if Solomon had repented.

Why are many Christians so keen on "sending Solomon to heaven"? It's because they imagine that anyone who serves the Lord will definitely go to heaven. No matter how they live. Jesus said that many would come to Him on the last day and say, "Lord, we prophesied in Your Name, we cast out demons in Your Name, we did miracles in Your Name." But the Lord will say to them, "Depart from me, you who lived in sin." Solomon will come before the Lord in that day too and say, "Lord, I wrote three books of Scripture that blessed millions of people." And the Lord will tell him also exactly what He tells the others, "Depart from me, you who lived in sin." Let Solomon's life be a warning to all of us. Paul said, "I can preach to others, but be disqualified myself finally" (1Cor.9:27).

Zac Poonen

Excerpt from [url=http://www.cfcindia.com/web/mainpages/word_for_the_week.php?display=06_01&year=07]A strong warning from Solomons backsliding[/url]

Brother hmmhmm, I am re-posting what I said but without the last paragraph about what Bible1985 said about the book of Hebrews being written to Hebrews.

PLEASE LOOK AT THE PARALLEL PASSAGES AND JUST SEE WHAT THE TEXT SAYS.

You also went on a tyrade on my brother Ricky's post about passive and active work of GOD in salvaion without having even looked at the video that he posted. When he called you out on it you said you already know everything about the subject and don't need to see it so you commented on something you knew nothing about as if you did know but your comments showed you didn't.
Instead of always defending your tradition please look at what the text says or listen to what is being presented. Otherwise it is a case of Proverbs 18:13.

Here is the post again:

If you keep reading on to verses 7-8 you will see it references and parallels JESUS' words in Matthew 7:16-19 about the cofessors of CHRIST who bear bad fruit being thrown into the fire. Compare those passages.

Then in Matthew 7:23 JESUS says, "I NEVER KNEW YOU" - in other words it is a reference to those who were not saved despite their profession ("Lord, Lord") of faith. now go back and keep reading the next verse, Hebrews 6:9- "we are confident of BETTER THINGS in your case-things that accompany SALVATION.

So it is clear that Hebrews 6:4-6 is a reference to false converts. Those who were ONCE (not are) enlightened, Tasted (not partaken of) the Heavenly gift, SHARED (by virtue of being in the fellowship of believers) in the Holy Spirit, TASTED the goodness of the Word and the powers of the coming age but not SAVED since if they were saved and then lost then CHRIST would have to be re-crucified in order to re-save them.

First i would like to ask forgivness if anything I wrote is as you say first. I had no intensions of coming forth as such, maybe my limited english somtimes dont really come forth as i think in my mother tongue.

What grieves me is that you all seem to treat scripture as some is for us and some is not, some warnings for us and some not. But all "good" verses are for us.

I do belive one can leave Christ, there are probably hundreds of verses warning born again belivers one can at one point know God in truth, and in the end end up with the unbelivers and wicked in hell forever. Now I respect anyone who interpret scripture different, i can with no problem fellowship and love such people. But I also think not many of you has understand what i have been trying to say, if your reasoning about scripture is right, then who shall determine for me what to take serious and what scriptures are for unbelieving jews?

I will leave this thread since it mostly round and round. I dont want to force my beliefs and doctrine upon anyone, but if as you seem to think, that it dont matter and is of no danger to live in sin. Then it would be waste of time even reading scriptures, for me or for jews, since i can not walk away from God or end up in hell if i am once saved. So wheter i read or not or obey or not are of non effect in eternity.

I meen we have so many warnings throughout scripture, and all the letters to the churches in revelation? they where not written to unbelivers, but to born again christians.

But that is not what i want to leave with here, my beliefs about osas.

but rather that we need to believe what scripture says even when we dont like it, and we need to take it serious, not reason it away, but rather obey it. Even when it goes against our doctrines or traditions as you say.

I wish you all a fruitfull discussion and much edifying. I have given what my heart had to share.

Christian

int3grity wrote:
hmmhmm that doesn't even make any sense. It is a parallel passage with the one in Matthew 7. regardless of whether they were both written to Jews the point is that there are false professors of CHRIST and it is clear when you look at how the one passage clarifies it's parallel that Hebrews 6:4-6 is not talking about saved people loosing their salvation. In light of so many other passages that show people cannot cease to be new creations in CHRIST, loose eternal life, or become un-born again (The chain of redemption in Rom 8:30, the words of CHRIST in John 6, etc.) it is clear that this is the meaning of Hebrews 6:4-6. There are no irreconcilable paradoxes in the Scriptures.

I don't believe that Hebrews 6 is talking about false professors of Christ. The people in question there had been enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, and shared in the Holy Spirit.

hmmhmm wrote:

I do belive one can leave Christ, there are probably hundreds of verses warning born again belivers one can at one point know God in truth, and in the end end up with the unbelivers and wicked in hell forever.

I agree with you brother.

2Pe 2:14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
2Pe 2:15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
2Pe 2:16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.

Baalam was a prophet, he heard Gods voice. Is he also in heaven?

I think to assume Salomon is in hell is correct since he never repented, repentance is necessary for being saved. No person that has not repented will be in heaven. And since there are more then one book and not one of them says he repented.

And i see no worse thing assuming he is in heaven then assuming he is in hell. Because if we say he is just when clearly he was not at the end, he may started out so but its a tragic story.

so saying he is in heaven when he is not just is also then an abomination.

I think Salomon is an example of what can happened, and we need to take heed.

If you do not see it so i respect that.

But i think Zac Poonen writing about this is very accurate.

I think that arguing over whether or not Solomon is in heaven or hell is kind of beside the point in this thread. We can make our case, so to speak, in better ways. Why not stick with those things that are perfectly clear in Scripture?

HomeFree89 wrote:
Why not stick with those things that are perfectly clear in Scripture?

Good advice brother, ill take to heart.

Not a reply. Just adding to thread.

Hebrews 6:4-6 states, “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.” This is one of the Bible’s most difficult passages to interpret, but one thing is clear—it does not teach that we can lose our salvation. There are two valid ways of looking at these verses:

One interpretation holds that this passage is written not about Christians but about unbelievers who are convinced of the basic truths of the gospel but who have not placed their faith in Jesus Christ as Savior. They are intellectually persuaded but spiritually uncommitted.

According to this interpretation, the phrase “once enlightened” (verse 4) refers to some level of instruction in biblical truth. However, understanding the words of scripture is not the same as being regenerated by the Holy Spirit. For example, John 1:9 describes Jesus, the “true Light,” giving light “to every man”; but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. Through God’s sovereign power, every man has enough light to be held responsible. This light either leads to the complete acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject such light. The people described in Hebrews 6:4-6 are of the latter group—unbelievers who have been exposed to God’s redemptive truth and perhaps have made a profession of faith, but have not exercised genuine saving faith.

This interpretation also sees the phrase “tasted the heavenly gift” (Hebrews 6:9) as referring to a momentary experience, akin to Jesus’ “tasting” death (Hebrews 2:9). This brief experience with the heavenly gift is not seen as equivalent to salvation; rather, it is likened to the second and third soils in Jesus’ parable (Matthew 13:3-23), which describes people who receive the truth of the gospel but are not truly saved.

Finally, this interpretation sees the “falling away” (Hebrews 6:6) as a reference to those who have tasted the truth but, not having come all the way to faith, fall away from even the revelation they have been given. The tasting of truth is not enough to keep them from falling away from it. They must come all the way to Christ in complete repentance and faith; otherwise, they in effect re-crucify Christ and treat Him contemptuously. Those who sin against Christ in such a way have no hope of restoration or forgiveness because they reject Him with full knowledge and conscious experience. They have concluded that Jesus should have been crucified, and they stand with His enemies. It is impossible to renew such to repentance.

The other interpretation holds that this passage is written about Christians, and that the phrases “partakers of the Holy Ghost,” “enlightened,” and “tasted of the heavenly gift” are all descriptions of true believers.

According to this interpretation, the key word in the passage is if (verse 6). The writer of Hebrews is setting up a hypothetical statement: “IF a Christian were to fall away . . .” The point being made is that it would be impossible (IF a Christian falls away) to renew salvation. That’s because Christ died once for sin (Hebrews 9:28), and if His sacrifice is insufficient, then there’s no hope at all.

The passage, therefore, presents an argument based on a false premise (that a true Christian can fall away) and follows it to its senseless conclusion (that Jesus would have to be sacrificed again and again). The absurdity of the conclusion points up the impossibility of the original assumption. This reasoning is called reductio ad absurdum, in which a premise is disproved by showing that it logically leads to an absurdity.

Both of these interpretations support the security of the believer in Christ. The first interpretation presents unbelievers rejecting Christ and thereby losing their chance of salvation; the second interpretation presents the very idea of believers losing salvation as impossible. Many scriptures make it abundantly clear that salvation is eternal (John 10:27-29; Romans 8:35, 38-39; Philippians 1:6; 1 Peter 1:4-5), and Hebrews 6:4-6 confirms that doctrine

[url=http://www.gotquestions.org/Hebrews-6.html]Source[/url]

Brother Homefree89, if you look at the parallel passage in Matthew 7 the false Professors of CHRIST in that passage Were casting out demons, prophesying and performing miracles in JESUS' name as well as calling HIM, "Lord,Lord" and JESUS told them, "I NEVER knew you". Do you see that a person can TASTE, SHARE, be ENLIGHTENED and yet NEVER be regenerated? Please see my previous post where this is clearly and undeniably shown regarding Hebrews 6:4-6.

Old Joe amen brother. Same thing happened to bart ehrman and many people i know to the question is not why they fell or why they left the faith but if they truely came in contact with the living Jesus Christ how could they want to truly leave and want to depart from him. I am serious we act as if coming to jesus is like some everyday thing. Their is only one time in my life where i haven't lost my interest or got bored and went to something else or decided to put something to the side for something else and that is when i met jesus christ. For the past 5 years everything in my mind and heart has been about jesus, i long to live for him better and be a better servant, if you have truyly known jesus you will not want to walk away because their is absolutely nothing in this world that could ever compare or fulfill as jesus does.

Amen brother Joe. The Almost Christian Discovered by Matthew Mead should clear up all the confusion that the Pelagian captivity of the Church has clouded our spirits with in this day and age. If every professing and true Christian read that it would probably be a means by which the Holy Spirit would water the fruits of revival in our time!

int3grity wrote:
Do you see that a person can TASTE, SHARE, be ENLIGHTENED and yet NEVER be regenerated? Please see my previous post where this is clearly and undeniably shown regarding Hebrews 6:4-6.

Nope, I don't see it the way you do.

i don't know how you cannot see that it is possible somebody could resist the holy spirit after being enlightened, that is what hebrews is saying. I personally study with an open heart and i did not in my study have a bias on losing your salvation or eternal security when i started to study the scripture, but from what i read that eternal security is all over the scripture after your born again, their our controversial scriptures like hebrews ch. 10 and 6, and peter ch.2 but those our easily answered if you take them in the context of what their saying. I have not seen anyone refute the eternal security verses at all, the losing your salvation verses seem to be easier to refute and answer. That comes from my unbias studying on the issue. Hey i could be wrong but i think we all need to make sure we our truly saved and know jesus.

I personally study with an open heart and i did not in my study have a bias on losing your salvation or eternal security

Same here. When I first started studying OSAS and everything that that entails, I didn't know what I believed. However, as I began reading my Bible and studying, I was convinced that we can reject our salvation. This is the conclusion I came to even when I wanted to believe that Christians were eternally secure.

I have not seen anyone refute the eternal security verses at all

And I have not seen anyone truely refute those verses that show you can "lose" your salvation...

the losing your salvation verses seem to be easier to refute and answer

I would say the converse is true...

That comes from my unbias studying on the issue

This is also from my unbiased (if we can ever be truely unbiased) view.

i think we all need to make sure we our truly saved and know jesus.

You're right!

I am not very good at greek, but the limited understanding I have and i am not sure i am right, but that word beliveth, is in the greek not meaning beliveth as one point in time beliveth, but rather beliveth in a continuing belief.

anyone with the greek skills may help here, but i think this is one of those cases it is hard to translate the greek form of a verb.

so not those who believed once, even true faith will be saved, but those who persevere and stay on the narrow path.

well salvation is a gift, and you as a reciver can embrace it or reject it as you please. And when given something valuable you tent to take good care of it, some are spoiled and take things for granted and in so doing spoil the gift.

Now i dont view salvation as something you lose, i dont think we misplace salvation as a set of car keys.

But many of you seem to think that if we receive this gift and walk unworthy of it we will still inherit eternal life. Many of the churches in revelation got an ultimatum from God. Repent or else...

And we know these where no fake convert or a product of american easy belivism. This where genuine christians, yet God threatens them with blotting their names out of the book of life.

And as it says

He who have ears...

I think the main problem is true and false conversion, what brother ray comfort teaches and if you listen to paul washer this is what he preaches about, how their our many who our not truly born again. He isn't preaching that they lost their salvation but they never knew the Lord and that is why their is no power in their life and they fall from the faith. Conditional believers always say that if you think you continue on sinning and stay saved then your kidding yourselves. What makes you think a new born again believer wants to sin after being supernaturally changed by the holy spirit and given a new nature. WE don't want that because the holy spirit has changed our wants and our desires, so we hate to sin.

I have listen to much of ray comforts teachings and most of Paul washers to. And i fully agree on that we have a multitude of unregenerate people being deceived that they are christians. But I do not think the passage we are talking about is about such people, i do not think the warnings in Revelation are to such people. I do not think some of Christ warnings and parallels are to such people, indeed some are but far from all.

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

To me it is pretty simple, it is possible to have your name written there, and live in sin and if you dont repent, your name will be blotted out. It is very simple, even a seven year old child can understand it. But then we have all people come and reason it away because it dont fit their doctrine they have learned from another man.

The word of God is clear and so easy a child can understand it.

blot=1813 evxalei,fw exaleipho {ex-al-i'-fo}
Meaning: 1) to anoint or wash in every part 1a) to besmear: i.e. cover with lime (to whitewash or plaster) 2) to wipe off, wipe away 2a) to obliterate, erase, wipe out, blot out

And if you read it in its context it still means the same. I think it is wiser to compare this passge with heb 4 then to matt 7.

but its just my opinion

so if you sin and don't repent you our no longer saved and cleansed by the blood of jesus, only when you repent our you cleansed. Jesus died for all of your sins until the day you die. That is a pretty hefty burden to lose your salvation because you sinned or as you want to say continue in sin, the true born again believer doesn't continue in sin forever because God will chastize him until he repents, God breaks us down until we our made into a unselfish humble servant of God who lays it all for God.

I think AW Tozer made an excellent exposition in his sermon on this text (found under the extensive series on Hebrews in the audio sermons). I won't try to summarize it because he states it plainly and in context.

Brother hmmhmm, you are looking at where CHRIST said He will NOT blot their names out of the book of life in Revelation 3:5 and assuming the opposite to automatically be the case. You are making an argument from silence. IT DOESN'T SAY HE WILL BLOT NAMES OUT OF THE BOOK OF LIFE. He is simply making a statement of fact and not making a threat.

Jonah prayed in the belly of the fish, FACT. It doesn't mean he waited 3 days before he prayed because of the placing of that statement in the text.

Cain lay with his wife and she bore him a son, FACT. It doesn't mean he met her in the land of nod after GOD exiled him as a wanderer.

Do you see how the Bible often states facts that don't automatically make our assumptions about them true?

He will not remove their names from the book of life, FACT. It doesn't mean He WILL remove the names of Christians from the book of life in hypothetical circumstances.

I Am constantly amazed that ppl will start their reading of Hebrews 6 in verse 4. Doesnt the "Therefore" in verse 4 cry out to you? Isint it waiveng a flag to you to look back to the previous verses for context?
Avoid Scriptual Error and Herrasies! ues the context.
Example: I do believe that Jesus was born of a virgin, I do not believe that Revelations 21:8 teaches that. The virgin birth must be brought from Gods word where he put it.
Hebrews 6 Undeniabley teaches a security for believers that you can depend on. If you believe in "Eternal Insecurity" you will have to find passages that in Full context support that Idea. Hebrews 6 teaches "Eternal Security" for believers.
(there is also the possibility that this passage was brought up simply get a conversation going, but I hope that there was an honest search for truth and enlightenment)

amen, the context not what we want to hear only.

but its just my opinion

No, it is Bible truth. Your opinion just happens to coincide. ;-)

The gospel isn't hard. Jesus' teachings were not meant for the elite, for the scribes. Paul said, "I am amazed you are so quickly led astray from the . . . simplicity of Christ."

Nowhere else would "blotted out" mean something other than taking away something that was there. It doesn't here either. If God meant something else, he would have used a different word with the correct meaning. :-)

Brother hmmhmm, you are looking at where CHRIST said He will NOT blot their names out of the book of life in Revelation 3:5 and assuming the opposite to automatically be the case. You are making an argument from silence. IT DOESN'T SAY HE WILL BLOT NAMES OUT OF THE BOOK OF LIFE. He is simply making a statement of fact and not making a threat.

You are making a good point, but we are also not looking at the other Bible verses that deal directly and indirectly with God blotting names out of the book of life. I would say those verses need to be part of the context here if we are going to discuss this.