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Slain in the Spirit

S
sermonindex

This has not been discussed in some time, and I was wondering what y'alls take is on the idea of being "slain in the Spirit".

Krispy

S
savannah

Slain: Past participle of slay

Slay: transitive verb 1: to kill violently, wantonly, or in great numbers ; broadly : to strike down: kill

intransitive verb: kill, murder

synonyms see kill

Those who are in rebellion to God seem to fall backward in Scripture as a sign of judgment.


The Holy Spirit does not "slay" a believer; He gives life.

Rom 8:11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

From an article by Tony Warren,

"Shakti Pat or Divine Touch Robert Walker described what takes place in Kundalini yoga: 'Few Christians realise that for thousands of years gurus have operated with gifts of healing, miracles, gifts of knowledge, and intense displays of spiritual consciousness as they stretch out and connect with a cosmic power which, though demonic in origin, is very real. The meetings which mystic Hindu gurus hold are called 'Darshan'. At these meetings devotees go forward to receive spiritual experience from a touch by the open palm of the hand, often to the forehead, by the guru in what is known as the Shakti Pat or divine touch. The raising of the spiritual experience is called raising Kundalini. The practice is quite intricate but is brought on by Shakti Pat in conjunction with the repetition of mantras or religious phrases and by holding physical positions for a long time. After a period when the devotee has reached a certain spiritual elevation they begin to shake, jerk, or hop or squirm uncontrollably, sometimes breaking into uncontrolled animal noises or laughter as they reach an ecstatic high. These manifestations are called 'Kriyas'. Devotees sometimes roar like lions and show all kinds of physical signs during this period. Often devotees move on to higher states of spiritual consciousness and become inert physically and appear to slip into an unconsciousness when they lose sense of what is happening around them. This state is called 'samadhi' and it leads to a deeper spiritual experience.'

This phenomenon is usually declared to be the product of the act of 'laying on of hands,' which is the belief that a person receives the Holy Spirit of anointing when this is done. The subsequent falling down backward is defined as the physical response to the strong power of the Holy Spirit coming upon these people.

These curious events are known by many different names, including, 'falling down backwards, falling out, drunk in the Spirit, sleep in the Spirit, going down, slain in the Spirit, overcome by the Spirit, resting in the Spirit, and the sleep blessing..'

As best we can tell, Maria Beulah Woodworth-Etter, a woman who preached in the holiness movement of the 1880’s, started this practice by falling out in her popular services of the time. She would often go into a trance-like state and fall down during her performances. She died in 1924, but her legacy of falling down backward in Church services has lived on. In modern times, it was brought back to great popularity by people in great numbers falling down in a small church in Toronto Canada. From this resurgence, many have also labled this, The Toronto Blessing,' where it is mixed with what is termed holy laughter."


Two false prophets of their own have this to say on the issue and related issues,


"There's nothing in Scripture that supports these kinds of phenomena that I can see, and I can't think of anything throughout the church age that would,' Wimber writes. 'So I feel no obligation to try to explain it. It's just phenomena. It's just people responding to God.'"

"There is no place in the Bible where people were lined up and Jesus or Paul or anyone else went along and tapped them on the head and watched them go down, one after another, and somebody else ran along behind. Can you picture Peter and James -- "Hold it, hold it, hold it!" -- running along behind trying to catch them? And so the model that we're seeing, either on stage or on television, is totally different from anything that's in Scripture." (John Wimber, "Spiritual Phenomena: Slain In The Spirit -- Part 1," Vineyard Christian Felllowship, Anaheim, CA, 1981, audiotape)

"You have so much today that is pure flesh, yet people have labeled it as the Spirit. It's not the Spirit, because it's not centered on Christ. It's pure emotionalism. Some of what is happening today, some of these manifestations where people are barking, making sounds of animals - I can tell you, that is not the Holy Spirit. It is purely demonic. The Holy Ghost does not bark. Only a devil barks. If somebody barks in my meeting, I'll cast the devil out of that man."

"You watching TBN here. If you're doing such nonsense, get back to the Bible. And don't you dare experiment with what is not Scriptural, checking out if God is in it. My brother, if it's not in the Bible, He's not in it!! If it's not in the Word of God, He is not in it. (Benny Hinn Condemns Toronto Blessing/Pensacola Phenomena Praise The Lord July 4, 1997 videotape transcript)

Noteworthy it is that one fruit of the Spirit is self-control.

Apparently,and from the testimony of those who have experienced this spiritism of sorts,there is no self-control but rather the lack thereof.

1 Timothy 4:1

"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;"

1 Thessalonians 5:21

"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." Amen!

I am in agreement with the Spirit and the Word that such is not the work of the Holy Spirit but another.

Any who are favorable to these teachings/practices ought to be directed to His Word 2 Tim. 3:16:

Every Scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for convincing, for correction of error, and for instruction in right doing; (WNT)

All scripture that was written by the Spirit, is profitable for instruction, and for confutation, and for correction, and for erudition in righteousness; (James Murdoch N.T.)

For the whole Scripture is giuen by inspiration of God, and is profitable to teache, to conuince, to correct, and to instruct in righteousnesse, (Geneva Bible)

Any who teach/do such things ought to be rebuked sharply and marked out as false teachers and false brethren.

J
Joshh

Truly being slain in the Spirit is very rare. Although what you see on TV is over 99% of the time going on because the person before them in line fell.

N
narrowpath

What I have seen of people being slain in the Spirit was flesh at best if not demonic. In the last 3 meetings where this phenonomen occured I felt an oppressive spirit hovering over the assembly. I left these meetings to avoid "contamination" and in great anger. I warned those which I met there that I believe it is not of the Spirit. People reacted with bewiderment; one got mad at me. It is strange. You look into the face of a fellow Christian and see yourself in completely opposite camps. It is a delusion for those who do not walk with God and do not normally have close fellowship with Him. God the allows the devil to cater for their fleshly desire for an experience.

I believe that there is a place for it when people are falling forward on their faces in conviction as seen in previous revivals or they are knocked down by God because they are raving against Him like Saul bevore he became Paul. The only other example I can think of is Annanias and Saphira.

S
sermonindex

So what are we to make of folks who seemingly walk with the Lord, are believers in the Word of God... and yet participate in this?

You said...

It is a delusion for those who do not walk with God and do not normally have close fellowship with Him.

...but I'm not sure we can make such a blanket statement like that. Granted, I dont know another's heart, but I have known people who I am convinced are born-again and walking with the Lord who go for this sort of thing.

So what do we do this? What about serious Christians who believe and participate in this sort of thing? I believe completely that it is unscriptural... but is it spiritually detrimental?

When I was in Charismania I had no problem with it. Once we left I had a real problem with it, and for the last few years it's been completely off my radar. But now I'm revisiting this issue, and I'm not sure what to make of it now.

Krispy

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AbideinHim

There are instances of being slain in the Spirit or falling under the power in the Word of God as well as in revival history. Greg Gordon has an article on Sermon Index on the subject.

Probably, if you are Charismatic you have experienced or witnessed the falling under the power many times, and if you are not from a Charismatic background you might have a less favorable opinion of it.

I have both seen and experienced what I believe to be true manifestations of falling under the power, in which the person was overcome by the power and presence of God, as well as much flesh, and even what I would consider demonic manifestations. So again, discernment is needed. People greatly err that claim that all falling under the power is a work of the Holy Spirit, or the opposite extreme is also true, that it is always the flesh or the devil.

This is a quote from Jonathan Edwards on bodily manifestations:

"A work [of God] is not to be judged of by any effects on the bodies of
men; such as tears, trembling, groans, loud outcries, agonies of body,
or the failing of bodily strength. . . . We cannot conclude that persons
are under the influence of the true Spirit because we see such effects
upon their bodies, because this is not given as a mark of the true
Spirit; nor on the other hand, have we any reason to conclude, from any
such outward appearances, that persons are not under the influence of
the Spirit of God because there is no rule of Scripture given us to
judge of spirits by, that does either expressly or indirectly exclude
such effects on the body, nor does reason exclude them. . . . It is not
at all strange that God should sometimes give his saints such foretastes
of heaven as to diminish their bodily strength. . . . Indeed all such
objections from effects on the body, let them be greater or less, seem
to be exceeding frivolous; they who argue thence, proceed in the dark;
they know not what ground they go upon, nor by what rule they judge."
.

S
sermonindex

there is no rule of Scripture given us to judge of spirits by, that does either expressly or indirectly exclude such effects on the body, nor does reason exclude them. . .

So if we are to believe this, then should we also say that the Word of God is not the final authority on all matters pertaining to faith and practice?

Krispy

A
AbideinHim

The Scripture Verses

Here are the main verses from Scripture showing people falling to the ground whenever God would manifest His presence to different people. The first verse is from the Original King James Version of the Bible, the rest are from the New King James Version.

"... that then the house was filled with a cloud, even the house of the Lord; so that the priests could not stand to minister by reason of the cloud; for the glory of the Lord had filled the house of God." (2 Chronicles 5:14)

Jesus said to them, "I am He." And Judas, who betrayed Him, also stood with them. Then when He said to them. "I am He," - they drew back and fell to the ground." (John 18:6)

"And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, "Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last." (Revelation 1:17)

"And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their faces and were greatly afraid." But Jesus came and touched them and said, "Arise, and do not be afraid." (Matthew 17:6)

"And as he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?" (Acts 9:3-4)

"So I arose and went out into the plain, and behold, the glory of the Lord stood there, like the glory which I saw by the River Chebar; and I fell on my face." (Ezekiel 3:23)

"Then the Lord opened Balaam’s eyes, and he saw the Angel of the Lord standing in the way with His drawn sword in His hand; and he bowed his head and fell flat on his face." (Numbers 22:31)

"And behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east. His voice was like the sound of many waters; and the earth shone with His glory. It was like the appearance of the vision which I saw - like the vision which I saw when I came to destroy the city. The visions were like the vision which I saw by the River Chebar; and I fell on my face." (Ezekiel 43:2-3)

"Then He brought me by way of the north gate to the front of the temple; so I looked, and behold, the glory of the Lord filled the house of the Lord; and I fell on my face." (Ezekiel 44:4)

S
sermonindex

These verses do not describe what we're seeing today in the "slain in the spirit" phenom.

"... that then the house was filled with a cloud, even the house of the Lord; so that the priests could not stand to minister by reason of the cloud; for the glory of the Lord had filled the house of God." (2 Chronicles 5:14)

I admit… I’m not clear on this one. I’ll have to look into it.

Jesus said to them, "I am He." And Judas, who betrayed Him, also stood with them. Then when He said to them. "I am He," - they drew back and fell to the ground." (John 18:6)

Here it was unregenerate people who fell… not believers. Apples to oranges.

"And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, "Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last." (Revelation 1:17)

Here John was in control of himself, which is evident by the fact that Jesus put His right hand on him and said “Do not be afraid…”. John fell to the ground in fear, not by the power of the Holy Spirit. Apples to oranges.

"And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their faces and were greatly afraid." But Jesus came and touched them and said, "Arise, and do not be afraid." (Matthew 17:6)

Why did they fall (on their faces, by the way)? Because they were afraid. And what did Jesus say? “Arise!” Apples to oranges.

"And as he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?" (Acts 9:3-4)

At this point in time Saul was an unregenerate man. Apple to oranges.

"So I arose and went out into the plain, and behold, the glory of the Lord stood there, like the glory which I saw by the River Chebar; and I fell on my face." (Ezekiel 3:23)

He’s not falling (on his face again, by the way) under the power of the Holy Spirit. He did this willingly out of fear and respect for God. He’s essentially bowing down. Apples to oranges.

"Then the Lord opened Balaam’s eyes, and he saw the Angel of the Lord standing in the way with His drawn sword in His hand; and he bowed his head and fell flat on his face." (Numbers 22:31)

Again, this is not the same as what the “slain in the spirit” people claim is going on. Apples to oranges.

"And behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east. His voice was like the sound of many waters; and the earth shone with His glory. It was like the appearance of the vision which I saw - like the vision which I saw when I came to destroy the city. The visions were like the vision which I saw by the River Chebar; and I fell on my face." (Ezekiel 43:2-3)

Again… not the same thing. He is essentially bowing down under his own power. He’s swooning and then uncontrollably falling over backwards. (He’s falling on his face again… unlike “slain in the spirit) Apples to oranges.

"Then He brought me by way of the north gate to the front of the temple; so I looked, and behold, the glory of the Lord filled the house of the Lord; and I fell on my face." (Ezekiel 44:4)

Same as the last few… apples to oranges.

Krispy

B
boG

Krispy, I think Edwards was saying there are no particular verses we can look to that expressely forbid "falling down" in the manner that we call "slain in the Spirit."

I agree, it is not of God. The only times anyone fell down as dead -- they died -- or as is assumed because of the Glory of the Lord. However, the latter, in most every case, the one who fell down as dead was strengthened and stood upright.

What I see today in all of this is lack of self-control, drunkeness rather than soberness of mind, emotion rather than devotion, the flesh rather than the Spirit, etc.

No lasting fruit -- no reformation of lives -- no increase of knowledge or wisdom -- no conforming to the image of Christ, etc.

All benefits in the lives of those Christians involved in these things are not because of this stuff but rather besides these things. It is no different than being foolishly entertained for the day but still being diligent to take some time for studies. I guess at the very least you are "emotionally" high on "positive affirmation" when you start your studies ... hey, it's organic!

Interesting references, Krispy. Seems to be more so a "fear" thing.

L
Llewellyn

This seems to me like an unbiblical term, and hence caution is advised.

For the only Biblical account related were Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5
:-o

J
jram

It seems to me to be a slang and almost irreverent term for the reaction that some have when the power of the Holy Spirit falls.

There are all kinds of views on whether its real or not. Some say its lack of self control but you know, when you hand over yourself to God to with as He wants its His will not yours that will be done. So I'm never surprised at the outcome!

There are those that argue about whether it happened in the Bible or not and those that say if it didn't happen in the Bible (according to our interpretation and translation) that it can't happen!

Whatever the truth of these arguments, I do know this. If I pursue a closer walk with God and during that I fall under the power of the Holy Spirit and fall on my face or into a trance as some say, maybe I will have been deceived maybe not. When I have to answer before God for my actions, it is He who has the grace to forgive and overlook the deceipt because He knows.

As for me - I will seek Him rather than blindly follow 'human truth'.

E
Earendel


KrispyKrittr wrote:
This has not been discussed in some time, and I was wondering what y'alls take is on the idea of being "slain in the Spirit".

Krispy

I can relate this my own experience; I can see how this can come about. How mine happened:

From time to time satan buffets and taunts me. There was a time when satan was bothering me about the authority of the Bible as the word of God and he challenged me. The buffeting began when he challenged me regarding the Holy Bible when he made a comment about Islam's Qur'an/Koran.

He said what do you have more than the Muslim? You say you have the Truth, but so do they, and how do you know you are right and they are wrong? What right do you have to say that you have the truth more then they do?

This really bothered me, so I went before the Lord. I knew that Islam did not believe in Jesus as the Son of God, and they don't believe that Jesus died for the forgiveness of sins. So this really bothered me. What right did I have to say I had the truth more then the Muslim...it is just a matter of faith after all?

I went out to pray before the Lord, as my faith was brought into question. I needed an answer as to why I had the right to say I had the truth more then they did.

As I considered this in my prayers, I remembered the Holy Spirit, how at times He fell on me and bore me witness that I was a son of God.

Well anyway, I prayed before the Lord:

Lord Jesus, I thank you that your Holy Spirit bears witness to the bible that it is the truth. I must have prayed this intently before the Lord for over a half a hour.

After I finished up my prayer I walked home from my praying. I decided to keep praying as I walked, and I prayed this prayer over again...Lord Jesus, I thank you that Your Holy Spirit bears witness to the Bible that it is the truth...

All at once, Like a mighty bolt of lighting it came...the most powerful witness of the Holy Spirit that I have ever had. The power of God fell upon me in such a way that I was barely able to stand on my feet.

The Shekinah Glory of God fell upon me that night and nearly knocked me off my feet. The Lord allowed me to stand up under it; I was barely able to contain it. Had the witness been any more powerful then it was, I would have been knocked out by it.

The presence of God's Holy Spirit is awesome! I describe His witness as follows: Power, Power, Power, A sweet fragrance like that of sweet spice or flowers, accompanied by joy unspeakable and full of glory, accompanied by great peace that floods my soul, a great calm, a sense of acceptance. I could feel His Love as a presence, like a bright light shining on me.

The experience on my senses that the Holy Spirit brings are incredible...God encountered me that night in prayer, and it was the most beautiful thing I have ever experienced! AWESOME!!

S
sermonindex

Good apples and oranges.

The only time anyone "fell backward" in the Word was when they were not right with GOD.

All else fell on their face out of reverence and Holy fear.

A Christian couple and their son were in Salt Lake City and thought they'd take a look at LDS temple - but when walking up that sidewalk to it - their son was "slain in a spirit"

Scarey story - but just goes to show ya.


One thing Watchman Nee did teach was, it is always better to err on the side of being over-cautious.
That HE will Always give you enough time to "Test All Things."

Being born-again and pentecostal - so grateful HE made Nee so available when first coming into the Church. "Latent Power of the Soul" - "Spiritual Reality or Obsession" - "The Spiritual Man", etc. etc..

M
murrcolr


KrispyKrittr wrote:
This has not been discussed in some time, and I was wondering what y'alls take is on the idea of being "slain in the Spirit".

Krispy

There are those who when they go out in a prayer line that fall backwards and fall to the ground.

There are preachers who will push you back as well.

But there are true manifestations of the Holy Spirit where people are knocked down and are slain. I have experienced it myself, the story goes like this.

After preaching the preacher asked is there anyone here not walking a righteous life put up your hand myself and some others put up our hands. He then asked us to stand up so he could pray for us.

I stood up as well as the others and he began to pray, then suddenly I was knocked down. What I felt was a force hitting me square in the chest. It was not painful but it knocked me down onto my seat. The man next to me help me get back up but I was shaking.

The pastor, the preacher and elders where soon around me and praying. It was all a blur from there on, but I do remeember the Pastor saying thats it it's coming out. At that point the taste in my mouth was like a year of morning bad breaths rapped into one brief moment.

I was set free, the violence that once haunted my life was gone.

Well thats my 2pence worth make of it what you will.

L
linda7

KrispyKritter wrote:

So what are we to make of folks who seemingly walk with the Lord, are believers in the Word of God... and yet participate in this?

I have not read the whole thread but I can answer this. As a fairly new Christian born again late in life, I fell right into this. The church I attended brought this in through a travelling ministry. One day in the church, I was zapped with no human hand on me, and fell on the floor in continuous laughter. Other manifestations followed as this spirit took a hold of the church.

The Good News is the Lord brought me out of it.

I was warned against it but did not listen as my life and person was so changed after being born again. If a person's heart is very serious for God, the Holy Spirit will bring them out of it. Pray for those who are caught up in it and be patient. The Holy Spirit can do what man cannot.

The posting earlier on the Kundalini spirit is a very accurate record of what this is all about.

God Bless
Linda

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sermonindex

The Series on this page below entitled [b]"Strange Fire: The Rise Of Gnosticism In The Church"[/b] written by Travers and Jewel van der Merwe is very good - written by AoG folks, from that pentecostal background. Their website [discernment-ministries.org] is presently down for fixin' up but their blog is operational and excellent. [ http://herescope.blogspot.com/ ].


Their 'Strange Fire' Series is on this list -

http://www.velocity.net/~edju/#APOSTASY%20AND


Editing: the link is not opening to 'this section' - [b] APOSTASY AND MISCELLANEOUS FILES: [/b] - where the articles are found --- just scroll down to that header. Sorry.

S
sermonindex

The church i went to when they were slain in the spirit, they were running in place and in circles and almost convulsing. They was an errie feeling that night before i got that and i was unsure if this was good or bad. I became fearful and when i was their i was very fearful, i prayed to jesus and he gave me peace, but what i got from my own discernment is that their was no control, no focus enogh on gods word h, holiness, repentance etc. The people were nice but i am telling you it might have not been from God, but i truly don't know. Remember it is the holy lifestyle that is more precious to God.

C
clintstone

do you know that you can position yourself in Christ to have this constantly day by day. a Tangible power and unction all over you body and flowing throughout all your . you can stir the gift of the Holy Ghost up and be consumed of God , in a tangible way, all the day long being filled with Him to overflowing in reality .. It is the Fathers good pleasure to give you this .. God bless you ," only believe " it is for you . to minister the ministration of the Holy Spirit to a lost and dying world you live in is to know the filling you exsperienced is to be upon you all the time ...Only Believe it and it and the Holy Spirit will lead you to this reality in Christ.

S
sermonindex

I truly believe that with child-like dependence on GOD to give us the words, thoughts and actions, that "greater works than these shall you do." - but to seek to "tangibly feel" HIS Presence is a snare.

Watchman Nee and Jessie Penn-Lewis and others acquainted with the manifestations of The Spirit and counterfeit spirits would say the same.

We "walk by faith" alone - even if we feel Nothing.

Bodily sensations should not be sought or confused as being from GOD.

This is the generation that "seeketh a sign" and many young in Christ are being led away by flesh and counterfeit phenomena by unchecked terminology regarding experiencing GOD's Presence with us.

We can seek to the re-filling of His Spirit - the times of refreshing as well, but our desire should be based upon getting a deeper knowledge of The Holy One and the Holy.

Seeking HIM for Himself and leaving self out of it - HE rewards. To seek the good of others before anything else causes HIM to pour out without measure - but never when we seek it for tangibles for ourselves. That's where/when most counterfeit spirits or vain imaginings manifest most - when we're seeking to "feel something" for ourselves.

Jesus was our day to day example of looking up to The Father for His words and deeds - ie, healing others, etc..

"If it be Thy will" and not as we see in these days, where many feel that they can command the Spirit to use them in any given gift of the Spirit, just because they want to be used right then in that way.

Abiding in HIM is nothing more than, leaning not to our own understanding and in all our ways, Acknowledging HIM, so HE will direct our paths and not body sensations.

Faith in His Presence, is not based upon our emotions or tangible "feelings".
The most amazing stories come from those who felt as if GOD had abandoned them.
"When I am weak - then HE is made strong." Paul said of his affliction/thorn, and with that - persecutions.

W
wayneman

I once attended a healing seminar sponsored by a Third Wave-type church. The man who led the meeting was not some big-hair faith healer in a chrome suit, but a humble pastor. After a few words he said, "We're going to invite the Spirit to come and minister now." And a presence seemed to descend from the ceiling and rest on the congregation. Soon people were going down under the power all over the place and exhibiting all sorts of strange manifestations. Some people freaked and ran out of the room. The pastor came to me, touched my hands with his fingertips and said, "Do you feel that?" "Yes." It felt as if tiny jolts of electricity were coming from his fingertips. "God is going to use your hands to minister to people. Now turn to this lady behind you, put your hand on her and pray that God will give her what He has given you." So I did, and it was just like I'd read about in the Vineyard books: it felt like 120 volts of electricity running down my arm and in to her--and she looked like she was being electrocuted! She shook violently and crashed into her chair, sobbing. I prayed for a few other people and nothing happened. I left there utterly bewildered.

Deep down I felt there was something fishy. I knew to "try the spirits, whether they are of God" but was afraid to, because the consequences of making the wrong judgment were terrifying. If this was from God, and I adjudged it a demonic spirit, that would be akin to the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. If, on the other hand, it was a demonic counterfeit and I embraced it as a gift from God...

But perhaps it was neither. Despite the incredible manifestations, no real healings or anything else requiring a supernatural explanation took place--nothing that couldn't be effected by a stage hypnotist. Of course, the pastor probably had no intention of using hypnotic techniques; he had just learned, through trial and error, what methods bring about the results he believed accompanied divine visitations.

It didn't hold up well under the light of Scripture, either. "Let all things be done decently and in order" and "If one sits in the seat of the unlearned and all speak in tongues, will he not say ye are mad?" Anyone who had walked into the room that night would have thought he had wandered into Bedlam. Also, admission was $15. It's difficult to envision the disciples charging a shekel to those who came to Jesus for healing.

Jonathan Edwards' "Religious Affections" also shed light on the subject. He said that spiritual affections are never heat without light, but they come about because the child of God understands something more of spiritual things than he did before. Sometimes these powerful dispensations of grace to the soul can produce striking physical reactions. But demonic counterfeits often begin as purely physical sensations unrelated to any activity of the heart and mind. That was the case with me that evening.

The verse that clinched it for me and led me to leave this fellowship in favor of something more Bible-oriented was: "God is not the Author of confusion." The whole time I was with the signs and wonders movement I was chronically confused.

It's a little off-subject, but the pastor who led this seminar told a fascinating story:

He had labored as a pastor for years and had only a meager congregation and little fruit to show for it. He started praying over a map of his city and claiming territory for the Kingdom of God. One night a demon resembling Jabba the Hutt appeared to him and said, "Why are you troubling me?" He announced himself as the prince of the city. Each night he would do battle with the demon, claiming the city block-by-block. While he was engaged in this strange acivity, his congregation quickly grew to several hundreds and was visited with signs and wonders.

P
psalm1

here are a couple of examples of believers that were not afraid of letting the Holy Spirit move freely

Testimony 1 - by Brother Yeung

In 1987, Pastor Dennis Balcombe came and led us into the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Since then we started to see miracles happening as we go out to preach the Gospel. Because of the miracles, many people came to know the Lord. One time other co-workers and I went to a meeting. There was a 40 years old lady who was demon possessed who came into the meeting. She was scolding and screaming at us while I was preaching. She was disturbing the whole meeting so that I could not continue to preach. I then asked the whole congregation to kneel down and pray. As we were praying, she came to the front and continued scolding and laughing at us.

I then stood up and said, 'In the name of Jesus shut up!'

Not only she did not shut up, but she said the same thing to me, 'In the name of Jesus you shut up!'

I then said, 'In the name of Jesus kneel down!' but she said the same thing back to me.

Whatever I said she would repeat the same thing. I had never experienced that before. I didn't know what to do but cry out to God desperately.

I prayed to God, 'I don't want to be defeated by the power of the devil.' I decided that no matter how long it may take or how hard it was, I was going to continue to pray until the demon was cast out.

At that time I knew that I could not pray in the understanding for she would repeat every word I said. So I laid my hands on her and started to pray in tongues. As I continued to pray I discovered that she wasn't saying anything and she was softening down. As she became weaker, I became stronger in the Spirit. Then the lady tied her hands together and put her head down to the floor. She cried out, 'Please don't pray anymore!'

I continued to pray in tongues. After a while, she felt on the floor like a dead person. Then after a few minutes, she woke up and was back to normal. Because of this miracle, many people believed in the Lord in that village.

Testimony 2 - by Brother Yeung

One time we had a evangelistic meeting in a village. Many people came to the meeting to listen to the Gospel. But as my co-worker was preaching, some gangsters came in the meeting to cause trouble. When I saw them coming in, I asked my co-worker to sit down and I stood up to preach.

I thought to myself the reason that they were causing trouble was because they didn't know the greatness of God. So I spoke loudly that our God is a true and a great God and He is able to perform miracles. Then I prayed to God to perform a miracle. I then asked the congregation if anyone was deaf. Then a sister brought a lady up who was deaf. As soon as I prayed for her, she was immediately healed. I then asked all who were deaf to come forward and that night they were all healed.

The gangsters were amazed as they saw the miracles happen. Some people in the meeting including the gangsters went back to their home and brought back their family members who were sick. There were eight paralyzed people who came and six of them were healed immediately. Because of the miracles, the whole village including the gangsters all believed in Jesus.

I believe the reason for such a great revival in China first is by preaching the word of God and second is by the miracles of God.


Thank you Jesus for the wonderful Holy Spirit

P
psalm1

I found this in the archives of SI. It sheds a little light on why the church is so afraid of the manifestations of the Holy Spirit

"There was a young woman there with a stiff hand. Instead of the mother making the child use her arm she had allowed the child to keep the arm dormant until it was stiff, and she had grown up to be a young woman and was like the woman that was bowed down with the spirit of infirmity. As she stood before me I cursed the spirit of infirmity in the name of Jesus. It was instantly cast out and the arm was free. Then she waved it all over. At the close of the meeting the devil laid out two people with fits, When the devil is manifesting himself, then is the time to deal with him. Both of these people were delivered, and when they stood up and thanked and praised the Lord what a wonderful time we had.

We need to wake up and be on the stretch to believe God. Before God could bring me to this place He has broken me a thousand times. I have wept, I have groaned, I have travailed many a night until God broke me. It seems to me that until God has mowed you down you never can have this longsuffering for others. We can never have the gifts of healing and the working of miracles in operation only as we stand in the divine power that God gives us and we stand believing God, and having done all we still stand believing.

We have been seeing wonderful miracles these last days and they are only a little of what we are going to see. I believe that we are right on the threshold of wonderful things, but I want to emphasize that all these things will be through the power of the Holy Ghost. You must not think that these gifts will fall upon you like ripe cherries. There is a sense in which you have to pay the price for everything you get. We must be covetous for God's best gifts, and say Amen to any preparation the Lord takes us through, in order that we may be humble, usable vessels through whom He Himself can operate by means of the Spirit's power."

AMEN BRO!

T
thomasm

Hi Psalm1

A great word from Smith Wigglesworth, thanks.
Demons were always manifesting themselves, in the Presence of Jesus.

Love in Christ tom

R
run2win

Reading through these responses--and I must say, a few of you have witnessed some far-out stuff :-o --this passage, Luke 8:26-39, came to my mind, but especially the verse where the demons had been cast out of a demoniac and what the resultant state of that man was like:

35 And all the people went out to see what had happened; and they came to Jesus, and found the man from whom the demons had gone out, sitting down at the feet of Jesus, clothed and in his right mind; and they became frightened.

What was frightening to these people was that this once demon-driven man now seemed perfectly normal. That is the work of the Holy Spirit. He makes a new creation out of what seems hopelessly lost.

The amazing result of this man's deliverance was seen in verse 39, where Jesus sends him away with a command to go and tell, and that is just what he does:

39 "Return to your house and describe what great things God has done for you." And he went away, proclaiming throughout the whole city what great things Jesus had done for him.

This is more what I would come to expect of a person who has had a life-changing encounter with Christ. Some of the stuff I have read in this thread makes it look as if some people leave a service in a worse state than when they came.
:-(

God is a God of order, not confusion.

Grace to all, and peace.

T
twayneb

This seems to be a pretty long lasting thread, and questions such as this one seem to be focal points for widely varying opinions, and often heated debate. I ran across an interesting account of the beginnings of the Methodist movement in America, written by one of the early circuit riders and elders. He was born in the 1770's and died in the 1850's if I recall correctly. His name was James Finley, and his book is entitled, "Pioneer Life in the Old West." In it he chronicles his conversion experience at the Cane Ridge revival in 1801. He said he saw a preacher at that meeting preach to a crowd, and up to 500 people at once "falling" under the influence of the power of God. He also records an incident in which a group of saints were in a circle praying. A man intent on killing some of them attempted to ride through the circle on a horse at full gallop. Before reaching the circle, however, he stiffened in the saddle, and fell to the ground as if shot. He lay there for 31 hours as the people prayed. (My amazement is that they could maintain prayer for 31 hours). At the end of that time he began to convulse as if in an epileptic seizure, and shortly arose praising God. Apparently God had dealt with him and he had surrendered while in, what appeared to outside observers, an unconcious state. I have been in meetings where someone was "slain in the spirit", and there was nothing but a very sweet presence of God there. I have been in meetings where I was uneasy, and did not bear witness in my spirit, and I have been in meetings where God genuinely moved, but many people "fell out" apparently as a form or fashion, although I am not trying to judge motive by saying that. This experience has never happened to me personally, but my wife experienced it once. She said as she was prayed for she found herself on the floor bathed in the presence of God, and did not remember falling at all. Another first hand account I have is from a minister who prayed for two people. One was a deaf Bible college student. He was praying for her ears to be healed. He closed his eyes, placed his hand on her head, and began to pray. He was aware of her head leaving his hand, and opened his eyes to see her fall to the floor, bouncing rather violently. After she got up, she realized that she could hear. She had been born deaf, and was amazed at the world of sounds around her. Another time he prayed for a man who began to fall, apparently of his own decision, realized there were no "catchers", and went through some rather unceremonious acrobatics trying not to hit the ground.
Conclusion of all of the anecdotal incidents? I would have to say it is a real thing that does happen. God's presence is awesome. I see the scriptures noted earlier in the thread, and know that men are reported in scripture to have been brought to the ground involuntarily by the presence of God. Precedence is definitely there. Unfortunately we are human, and as a result sometimes behave out of our flesh thinking we are somehow being spiritual. This happening out of a pure heart of someone who is in relationship with Jesus, is surely forgiven, and most likely disciplined by the conviction of the Holy Spirit. We all grow this way. In my opinion, don't get too hung up on the "experience" either one way or the other. Set your heart to seeking the Lord, and let the rest take care of itself. Ground yourself in the Word so you will not be deceived. If you draw near to Him, he will also give you discernment in all of these cases.

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