By Nature We Bend Towards That Which is False

By Nature We Bend Towards That Which is False

Quoting AW Pink . . .

The Lord's command in Mark 4:24 is "take heed what ye hear". Corrupt nature is thoroughly in love with error and will more readily and eagerly receive false rather than true doctrine. Should any dispute this statement, we would refer them to Jeremiah 5:31: "the prophets prophesy falsely and the priests bear rule by their means; and My people love to have it so". Said Christ unto the Jews, "because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not" (John 8:45): what a commentary on fallen human nature - had He preached lies they would have promptly received Him.
Alas, what is man: he will run greedily after something new and sensational, but is soon bored by the old story of the Gospel.

How feeble is the Christian, how weak his faith, how fickle and unstable the moment he is left to himself. Peter, the most courageous and forward of the apostles in his profession, denied his Master when challenged by a maid. Even when given a heart to love the Truth, we still have "itching ears" for novelties and errors, as the Israelites welcomed the manna at first, but soon grew weary of it and lusted after the fleshpots of Egypt.

Real and urgent then is our need to heed this command,
"Beware of false prophets."

From: Sermon on the Mount

This article in some ways mirrors the thoughts I have been having concerning truth.

We accept truth to a certain level, but beyond that, we reject it.

But, getting back to the article, we are very much into what is new, and novel, and because of this, many are carried away with new doctrines, extra biblical teachings, and whatever pleases the flesh.

Many Christians are bored with the old gospel, hence all the hype that is taking place in many churches nowadays.

God help us.

Great Article TJ. I have seen it first hand that people do not love and agree with the truth of the scriptures. Most are not settled upon the base of strong biblical doctrine, therefore they do not judge what is being said and accept everything that comes their way.

To bad y'all keep making excuses for sin, why don't you just have some integrity and accept the responcability of your own own choices & Stop blaiming your nature for what y'all choose to do from your own volition.

Why did Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels sin, if they do not have a "Corrupt Nature"?
Why did Adam and Eve sin, since they didn't have a "Corrupt Nature" inside of them?

The answer, because they wanted to. We cannot look to anything but our own free will as the cause of our sin. We have no one to blame but ourselves, it is our own fault.

One must not make diferences between Lucifer & his angels sin, Adam & Eve's reason for sinning with our onw reason for sinning.

To bad y'all keep making excuses for sin, why don't you just have some integrity and accept the responcability of your own own choices & Stop blaiming your nature for what y'all choose to do from your own volition. -

[quote -Logic]

Yes logic we are all responsible for our own choices and I am sorry that I have sinned. I hope you are sorry for your sins also. I did use my freewill to sin and I can not blame nobody but me. Left to my free will and I would surely be in hell. I was weak but that is no excuse so I must die because the soul that sinneth shall die. I had thought sin could bring me pleasure but now I see it differently and I have asked God to forgive me. I don't want to do my will any more but I want to do God's will. I know and desire now, to not trust in my free will but to surrender to God and trust in Christ and in His Spirit to become what God wants of me.

Ro 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. I've asked God to help me because I am carnal, sold under sin. I have sinned and now I am carnal sold under sin and in bondage to sin. Ro 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. I am really having a hard time because I want to do better. Ro 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. But there is something that is keeping me from doing good and causing me to do wrong.

Ro 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. Sin is dwelling in me and causing me to do evil.

Ro 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. There is nothing good dwelling in my flesh. Jesus said there is none good but one and that is God.

Ro 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Ro 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Ro 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Ro 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Ro 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Ro 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Ro 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Thank God Jesus can deliver me from my wretchedness. In Christ Jesus I am justified and a new creature and If I walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh then I will be free from the control of sin in my flesh. The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the Law of sin and death.

rbanks wrote:
Yes logic we are all responsible for our own choices and I am sorry that I have sinned. I hope you are sorry for your sins also. I did use my freewill to sin and I can not blame nobody but me. Left to my free will and I would surely be in hell. I was weak but that is no excuse so I must die because the soul that sinneth shall die. I had thought sin could bring me pleasure but now I see it differently and I have asked God to forgive me. I don't want to do my will any more but I want to do God's will. I know and desire now, to not trust in my free will but to surrender to God and trust in Christ and in His Spirit to become what God wants of me.

Please, explain and Tell me; since Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels sin, if they do not have a "Corrupt Nature".
[b]&[/b]
Adam and Eve sin, since they didn't have a "Corrupt Nature" inside of them.
Why must you say that mankind have a "Corrupt Nature" for sinning?

Please answer this?

I'm not really part of this discussion, but I'll throw in two cents that I read today from a sermon by John MacArthur:

"In the case of Lucifer, he was the source of evil initially in the angelic realm and as we will see, he got a third of the other angels to get along with him and join. Now since angels don't procreate, Lucifer didn't sin and pass on sin because angels don't marry are not given in marriage, as Jesus said. They don't procreate. They were all created at one time. But when Satan made a bad choice, he managed to seduce a third of the rest of the angels...there are ten thousand times ten thousand thousands of thousands so you can multiply all of that and you're probably not there yet. So there are twice as many holy angels as demons since one third fell, two thirds didn't. But they fell by choice. We'll see that choice when we get into the prophets.

The same happened with Adam and Eve, only it had a different effect. With angels they all sinned their own sin and nobody sin passed to anybody else cause they don't procreate. In the case of Adam and Eve, when Adam and Eve made the wrong choice, all humanity went with them because we all come out of the loins of Adam and Eve. So the source of evil is outside of God. The source of evil is the creature."
- from sermon The Origin of Evil #90-235

To bad y'all keep making excuses for sin, why don't you just have some integrity and accept the responcability of your own own choices & Stop blaiming your nature for what y'all choose to do from your own volition.

Speaking of integrity ...

Logic. At no point has anyone asserted your insinuations, here or elsewhere.

If you continue these attempts to bait others into yet another contentious argument you will be removed.

Reply: and greetings to all.

If we say we know, then we prove by our own words that we don’t. Scripture says we can’t
know because God’s thoughts are not our thoughts. Our salvation is based upon Who we know and not what we know. The New Covenant is based upon our faith in The One scripture leads us too. If you know Jesus then proceed in joy and in the spirit of love and charity that Jesus has placed into your heart for your works are already accepted by God..

Eddie

crsschk wrote:

To bad y'all keep making excuses for sin, why don't you just have some integrity and accept the responcability of your own own choices & Stop blaiming your nature for what y'all choose to do from your own volition.

Speaking of integrity ...

Logic. At no point has anyone asserted your insinuations, here or elsewhere.

If you continue these attempts to bait others into yet another contentious argument you will be removed.

Why do you think I'm "baiting"?
I have a serious question which no one has answered for a defence of their doctrine which they keep a hold of with no reasonable purpose.

What is the purpose of this doctrine?

It muddies the water so people can blaim their nature for the reason that they sin.

Sure, [b]rbanks[/b] takes responcibiliy for his sinful choices, but how can any body truly do that if they have a "corupted natute" which causes them to have no other choice but to sin?

Knowing that mankind can not avoid sin according to this. Mankind can never remain sinless even from his birth, it is imposible.
Tell me how one can truly take responsibility for that which is unavoidable, inevitable?

All I want to know is why y'all say that we have a corrupt nautre all because we sin when the devil & the other fallen angels didn't have one, nor did Adam & Eve.

What is the diference between Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels sin, Adam and Eve"s sin, and ours?

rowdy2 wrote:
Reply: and greetings to all.

If we say we know, then we prove by our own words that we don’t. Scripture says we can’t know because God’s thoughts are not our thoughts.

Furthermore, the phraise "God’s thoughts are not our thoughts"
Is from Isaiah 55:8-9
It is evident that it is properly connected with the subject of pardon of verse 7; and the sense must be, that the plans and purposes of God in regard to forgiveness are as far above those of people as the heavens are higher than the earth. But in what respects his plan of pardon differs from those of people.

It is not saying anything about what you imply that God is so out their that no one can truly understand.

Reply to Logic

I was thinking of the following words of Paul.

Romans 11
33. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34. For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counseller?
35. Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36. For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

We can not return to the dark recesses of our mind after our spiritual rebirth and ever find peace.
Only Jesus has the words to eternal life.

Repectfully Eddie

Why must you say that you have a "Corrupt Nature"?

Please, explain and Tell me; since Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels sin, if they do not have a "Corrupt Nature".
&
Adam and Eve sin, since they didn't have a "Corrupt Nature" inside of them.
Why must you say that mankind have a "Corrupt Nature" for sinning?

Please answer this?

Your question concerning the cause of sin for Adam/Eve and the Angels is not the same as asking what motivates US to sin. A more applicable question concerning the fallen angels would be if I were to ask you, "If they sinned according to their own free will, then why can't they, by their own free will, currently choose to follow after righteousness and stop sinning, as you claim man has to do?" It's because their NATURE has been given over to sin and they will do nothing but revel in their sinfulness. Likewise, the very nature of Adam was given over to depravity from the fall and all those that descend from his seed are depraved in nature. Does a roach ever reproduce anything but other roaches? The whole lot of us are rotten and we should all be JUSTLY damned as no more righteous than the fallen angels. If demons could procreate, would their descendents be innocent at birth and have to DECIDE to sin by their own free will before they too become demons?...No, demons will produce demons, and a fallen sinful man will produce fallen sinful men, just as flesh produces flesh.

So you will say, "Then you are saying a child can be damned to Hell!" I'm saying God would be perfectly just in sending every one of us (infants included) to Hell if He should choose to and that would be the end of us all (infants included) apart from God intervening on our behalf. Just as every malignant cell that is birthed from a lump of cancer should rightfully be erradicated from the body, even if it has not infected other cells YET or done any damage to the body on its own yet...it is still by nature a cancer cell and will/can do nothing but cause death.

What hope is there then for a child, how will they ever be accepted by God? The same way any of us are accepted by God, by grace alone. Why has God chosen to redeem sinful man and left the fallen angels to their demise?...for His own names' sake, to the glory of His name, because He WILLED to do so according to His perfect plan, not because we decide to stop sinning and the angels choose to continue in sin. Left to ourselves, we cancerous cells would do nothing but produce death. Praise God that HE is able to regenerate us and change our nature from a nature that justly deserves death (as all cancers do) to a nature of life, recreated in Him for good works! Praise God that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us and this is the only hope we have.

graceamazed wrote:

Why must you say that you have a "Corrupt Nature"?

Please, explain and Tell me; since Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels sin, if they do not have a "Corrupt Nature".
&
Adam and Eve sin, since they didn't have a "Corrupt Nature" inside of them.
Why must you say that mankind have a "Corrupt Nature" for sinning?

Please answer this?

Your question concerning the cause of sin for Adam/Eve and the Angels is not the same as asking what motivates US to sin.

A more applicable question concerning the fallen angels would be if I were to ask you, "If they sinned according to their own free will, then why can't they, by their own free will, currently choose to follow after righteousness and stop sinning, as you claim man has to do?"

It's because their NATURE has been given over to sin and they will do nothing but revel in their sinfulness.

However, the fact that there is no redeeming of fallen angels is the reason why continue to sin.

Likewise, the very nature of Adam was given over to depravity from the fall and all those that descend from his seed are depraved in nature.

Does a roach ever reproduce anything but other roaches?

The whole lots of us are rotten and we should all be JUSTLY damned as no more righteous than the fallen angels

If demons could procreate, would their descendents be innocent at birth and have to DECIDE to sin by their own free will before they too become demons?...No

Why do you instantly take the choice way from guilt or guilt from choice?

demons will produce demons, and a fallen sinful man will produce fallen sinful men, just as flesh produces flesh.

So you will say, "Then you are saying a child can be damned to Hell!" I'm saying God would be perfectly just in sending every one of us (infants included) to Hell if He should choose to and that would be the end of us all (infants included) apart from God intervening on our behalf.

Just as every malignant cell that is birthed from a lump of cancer should rightfully be eradicated from the body, even if it has not infected other cells YET or done any damage to the body on its own yet...it is still by nature a cancer cell and will/can do nothing but cause death.

Why has God chosen to redeem sinful man and left the fallen angels to their demise?

for His own names' sake, to the glory of His name, because He WILLED to do so according to His perfect plan.

not because we decide to stop sinning and the angels choose to continue in sin.

Left to ourselves, we cancerous cells would do nothing but produce death.

Praise God that HE is able to regenerate us and change our nature

from a nature that justly deserves death (as all cancers do) to a nature of life,

Where do you get this stuff?

Fallen angels have no motivation to stop sinning. All mankind does which would be the atonement as our motivation.

That's the problem my friend, God gave Israel plenty of motivation to stop sinning as we see in Deut. 28 (and the rest of the Law for that matter). They knew the result of and the consequences of their sin, but they loved their sin and continued in it. Paul points out in Rom. 3 that no one seeks God, none of us! That must mean that the motivations of sin are greater than the motivations of God, if, as you propose, we choose God solely based on the rewards He lays before us (doesn't this sound a little humanistic - "serve God because of what you can get out of the deal" as opposed to, "serve God because He is God and worthy of your worship, not for what you can get out of the deal").

Adam was restored back to God right after he sinned.
Were do you find that Adam was given over to depravity from his disobedience?
Also were do you find that all those that descend from his seed are depraved in nature because of Adam who was restored back to God?

Gen. 3 is about the Fall of Man, not the Fall of Adam. Not only did sin enter through the first Adam bringing condemnation on the whole race, but all of creation was subjected to frustration in the Fall of Man. Would it not be mean of God to come along and completely restore Adam to a standing of righteousness, but forget to restore the rest of creation in the process? And please show me at what point we read that Adam repented of his sin and started pursuing God once more that he might be restored?

Man, as a race, did die as a result of that first sin, but the death was not only a physical one (as I'm assuming you probably conclude), it was in fact a spiritual one as well.

"For until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. NEVERTHELESS, death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come." Personal/individual sin was prevalent in the world before Moses ("until the Law sin was in the world..."), but Paul adds that these personal sins were not the ultimate reason people died in that time period: "But sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses."

the crux if the matter is how one action of disobedience can change the nature in a man?
I agree that one action of disobedience can change the statuse of one from a right, proper, correct standing with God to a broken, unqualified, unsuitable standing.
But the nature can not change.
I can see ones character changing over a period if time as they harden their heart, but that's not emediate.

The spiritual nature of man changed with this first sin, it died. That's why God has saved us "not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the WASHING OF REGENERATION and RENEWING BY THE HOLY SPIRIT..." (Tit. 3:5) Jesus tells Nicodemus that two things must happen to a man who is to be born again, he must be born of WATER ("washing of regeneration") and of the Spirit ("renewing by the Holy Spirit"). This is only the fulfillment of the promise of the new covenant we find in Ezekial 36, which clearly illustrates that all men turn away from God, but HE has chosen for His names' sake to do a work in man. He says HE will "sprinkle clean water on you (washing of regeneration) and you will be clean...I will put My Spirit within you adn CAUSE you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances." Apart from God doing the work to regenerate man, man will not follow God and he will not obey his ordinances, regardless of the motivations laid before him.

Tell me how God would be perfectly just in sending anyone who has not yet sinned to hell?
What have infants done to deserve hell?
People must deserve hell, that implies volition & intention.

The guilt and sin of Adam is imputed to all born of the flesh, just as the righteousness of Christ is imputed to all reborn of the Spirit. You say it is not just for God to hold us guilty for a sin we did not personally commit, then you should also say it is unjust of God to count us, the lawless (whether by nature or choice), justified by a righteousness that was not our own, but was the imputed righteousness of another, Christ.

Because we have not received the FULL revelation of the Godhead as angels have.

"It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven--things into which angels long to look." (1 Peter. 1:12)

No, it does not appear that angels have seen the full revelation of the Godhead.

Quote:
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for His own names' sake, to the glory of His name, because He WILLED to do so according to His perfect plan.
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That is arbitrary resaon why God chosen to redeem sinful man and left the fallen angels to their demise.

This is the PRIMARY reason God has redeemed man: for His names' sake and to the glory of His name.

Regeneration does not effect our nature.
"Regeneration is a moral change wrought in the hearts of men by the Holy Spirit. This change is neither physical nor intellectual, although both the body and the mind my be affected by it. It is not a change in the substance of the soul, nor is it the addition of any new powers. Regeneration is not a metamorphosis of human nature. Man does not receive a new ego. His personal identity is the same in essence after regeneration as before. He has the same power of intellect, feeling and will, but these are given a new direction. God does not undue in the new creation what He did in the first creation. The change is, therefore, not in the natural constitution of man, but in his moral and spiritual nature. Furthermore, it is important to believe that the whole man, and not merely certain powers of his being, is the subject of this spiritual renewel." (Christian Theology, V.2, p. 419)

Its alright to reference secondary scholars as to their opinions and conclusions, but lets not pretend like any of them are the definative source for defining Christian doctrines. I could just as easily quote a dozen other definitions for regeneration from "Theological" sources that are bent more to my liking.

And please, stop with all the "Where do you get this stuff!" talk. If we are going to discuss this issue, then let's do it as Christian brothers, bearing patiently with one another (as neither of us are without errors in our understanding), seeking not to win an argument, but to come to a fuller understanding of the truths of Christ.

Martin Luther commended Erasmus for recognizing the crux of the matter at issue between Romanism and its adherents, and the ek-klesia of God when he said,

"...that unlike all the rest, you alone have attacked the real issue, the essence of the matter in dispute [man's so-called free-will]... You and you alone saw, what was the grand hinge upon which the whole turned, and therefore you attacked the vital part at once; for which, from my heart, I thank you." (*)

There are also few in our day who recognize the crux of the matter and the essence of the matter in dispute, as 'logic' does here on SI.

This quote from him on this thread is telling of this very fact, "We cannot look to anything but our own free will as the cause of our sin."

This statement is foundational to the whole sum and substance of his doctrine. As you read his posts, this contaminant is the main ingredient which makes the mixture deadly, poisoning the minds of the simple and unwary.

His idol will crumble, even as Sadaam Hussein's did in Iraq, if God ever gives him revelation that the Sovereign God and Father has given His Son Jesus the Christ and LORD as our Foundation, and not this so called free will.

All who are the called, who are called by His Name, may profit much by studying this grand illusion of free will.

From Plato to the Jesuits to Pelagius to Jehovah's Witnesses, to Seventh Day
Adventists to Mormons, to Romanists and to every works based religion imaginable, this fatal lie of free will may be attributed.

"Free will has carried many souls to hell but never a soul to heaven." (CHS)

"The Sovereignty of God is the stumbling block on
which thousands fall and perish; and if we go contending with God about His sovereignty it will be our eternal ruin.It is absolutely necessary that we should submit to God as an absolute sovereign, and the sovereign of our souls; as
one who may have mercy on whom He will have mercy
and harden whom He will" (Jonathan Edwards).

"All God's people, sooner or later, are brought to this point to see that God has a 'people,' 'a peculiar people,' a people separate from the world, a people whom He has 'formed for Himself, that they should show forth His praise.
Election sooner or later, is riveted in the hearts of God's people. And a man, that lives and dies against this blessed doctrine, lives and dies in his sins; and if he dies in that
enmity, he will be damned in that enmity (J.C. Philpot).

(*) See Luther's, The Bondage of the Will.

I was in my grandfather, when he became a Canadian, at that moment I became a Canadian, even though I wasn't born yet. I was in Adam, when he sinned, and fell into darkness, so I was born in darkness, and needed the gosple to open my eyes. When I was born again, the old nature was crucified, with Christ, and I took on the nature of Christ. If I sin it's because of unbelief, I've forgotten who I am, a child of my heavenly FATHER, not the father of lies.

Love in Christ tom

This quote from him on this thread is telling of this very fact, "We cannot look to anything but our own free will as the cause of our sin."

This statement is foundational to the whole sum and substance of his doctrine. As you read his posts, this contaminant is the main ingredient which makes the mixture deadly, poisoning the minds of the simple and unwary.

His idol will crumble, even as Sadaam Hussein's did in Iraq, if God ever gives him revelation that the Sovereign God and Father has given His Son Jesus the Christ and LORD as our Foundation, and not this so called free will.

All who are the called, who are called by His Name, may profit much by studying this grand illusion of free will.

From Plato to the Jesuits to Pelagius to Jehovah's Witnesses, to Seventh Day
Adventists to Mormons, to Romanists and to every works based religion imaginable, this fatal lie of free will may be attributed.

"Free will has carried many souls to hell but never a soul to heaven." (CHS)

savannah, you are correct - Though I could foresee this getting bogged down into yet more and more play on words ... It seems a great deal of the time that having titled something, such as "Free-will" or as it matters here, '[i]Sin nature[/i]' that some cannot unwind their fixed conceptions of just what is meant and frankly I would forward that we may not always do a very good job of expressing - a lot of that is also spent energy in answering peculiar questions that are more speculation than anything - The nature of Angels and devils for instance.

Logic. I would rather give you the benefit of the doubt [i]if[/i] you can be reasonable. And I will go out on a limb here and state that I believe that this that follows is what 'we', the vast majority understand of this whole business. It is lost on no one the abuses, the easy believism of the day, the 'seemingly' possibility of myriad of excuses that would be summed up as "It's not my fault, I was born this way" that seems to be your preoccupation with this whole 'nature' business. Maybe it's the terminology, the phraseology - Here, it is described as a disease in need of a cure,

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=26184&forum=34&post_id=&refresh=Go]Healing By The Stripes of Jesus ~ Spurgeon[/url]

And if I had to add anything else I do not know that it would not be agreeable to either side of the waring camps, the Hatfield's and McCoy's of Christianity ...

graceamazed wrote:

Fallen angels have no motivation to stop sinning. All mankind does which would be the atonement as our motivation.

That's the problem my friend, God gave Israel plenty of motivation to stop sinning as we see in Deut. 28 (and the rest of the Law for that matter). They knew the result of and the consequences of their sin, but they loved their sin and continued in it. Paul points out in Rom. 3 that no one seeks God, none of us! That must mean that the motivations of sin are greater than the motivations of God,

When ever there was a godly king who repented, the nation followed.
The motivation is godly leadership.
That is how children grow up to be Christian, godly parents(leadership)
That is how a church family grows more godly; with godly elders who follow GOD.

That is why demons fell, ungodly leadership.
That is why demons stay demons, God will never lead them to repentance.

if, as you propose, we choose God solely based on the rewards He lays before us (doesn't this sound a little humanistic - "serve God because of what you can get out of the deal" as opposed to, "serve God because He is God and worthy of your worship, not for what you can get out of the deal").

Gen. 3 is about the Fall of Man, not the Fall of Adam.

Not only did sin enter through the first Adam bringing condemnation on the whole race, but all of creation was subjected to frustration in the Fall of Man.

His sin had consequences, those consequences are not the penalty as you are implying.
[b]Romans 5:16[/b] [color=990000]So is the gift not like it was by one that sinned: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offenses unto justification.[/color]

[color=990000]The gift[/color] [of righteousness/justification] (of life) [color=990000]is not comparable to the judgment[/color] (to die) but it is like this:
[color=990000]The judgment is from Adam's sin to[/color] (to his own) [color=990000]condemnation. but the free gift[/color] (of righteousness/justification) [color=990000]is from many offences[/color] (my life of sin) [color=990000]to being right with God[/color] (because of repentance).

Would it not be mean of God to come along and completely restore Adam to a standing of righteousness, but forget to restore the rest of creation in the process?

And please show me at what point we read that Adam repented of his sin and started pursuing God once more that he might be restored?

Man, as a race, did die as a result of that first sin

NEVERTHELESS, death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come." Personal/individual sin was prevalent in the world before Moses ("until the Law sin was in the world..."), but Paul adds that these personal sins were not the ultimate reason people died in that time period: "But sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses."

The spiritual nature of man changed with this first sin, it died.

That's why God has saved us "not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the WASHING OF REGENERATION and RENEWING BY THE HOLY SPIRIT..."

Jesus tells Nicodemus that two things must happen to a man who is to be born again, he must be born of WATER ("washing of regeneration") and of the Spirit ("renewing by the Holy Spirit").

Water here is meant baptism; make no doubt: no question about this, that Jesus goes on from there to the next verse to explain that the benefits to be had by the Messiah, is of no value for a man to be born of the seed of Abraham, or to be originally an Israelite, (That which is born of the flesh is flesh).
One must take on a whole new life, forgetting what he learned in Judaism (that which is born of the Spirit is spirit).

This is only the fulfillment of the promise of the new covenant we find in Ezekiel 36, which clearly illustrates that all men turn away from God,

Tell me how God would be perfectly just in sending anyone who has not yet sinned to hell?

The guilt and sin of Adam is imputed to all born of the flesh, just as the righteousness of Christ is imputed to all reborn of the Spirit.

I can't believe I'm arguing about the responsibility of one own guilt to a Christian, who should know this.

If one is guilty by anything but his own fault, then he is not accountable for being guilty. In essence, his guilt means nothing, he is not truly at fault and not culpable.
Your doctrine is setting guilty man free by making it not his fault, but a distant relative.
Sure, you claim culpability, but you prove the contrary of it by your theology/doctrine.

You say it is not just for God to hold us guilty for a sin we did not personally commit, then you should also say it is unjust of God to count us, the lawless (whether by nature or choice), justified by a righteousness that was not our own, but was the imputed righteousness of another, Christ.

You’re saying that man must not even acknowledge his own guilt before God saves (regenerates) him, which isn't even his in reality.
He does not need to justify God in his confession, but God imputes righteousness for no reason at all, just as man is guilty for no reason of his own.

Because we have not received the FULL revelation of the Godhead as angels have.

"It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven--things into which angels long to look." (1 Peter. 1:12)

No, it does not appear that angels have seen the full revelation of the Godhead.

for His own names' sake, to the glory of His name, because He WILLED to do so according to His perfect plan.

That is arbitrary reason why God chosen to redeem sinful man and left the fallen angels to their demise.

This is the PRIMARY reason God has redeemed man: for His names' sake and to the glory of His name.

Anything from ones own will is arbitrary. A choice needs to proceed from outside of one in order to be not arbitrary.

It’s alright to reference secondary scholars as to their opinions and conclusions, but let’s not pretend like any of them are the definitive source for defining Christian doctrines.

The problem here is that you think that you must be the one who is right.
Are you asking questions to understand what and where I'm coming from, or are you attempting to shoot everything I say down from the start?

Until you get passed that, all you will be doing is attempting to defend [b]that which has not been concluded[/b].

All that matters to me is people stop calling me a heretic and understand where I'm coming from.
I do not have a flesh pleasing theology, in fact I condemn the flesh.
I do not have a theology that clears man of guilt, in fact I make man more culpable than your theology.

And please, stop with all the "Where do you get this stuff!"

savannah wrote:

There are also few in our day who recognize the crux of the matter and the essence of the matter in dispute, as 'logic' does here on SI.

This quote from him on this thread is telling of this very fact, "We cannot look to anything but our own free will as the cause of our sin."

This statement is foundational to the whole sum and substance of his doctrine. As you read his posts, this contaminant is the main ingredient which makes the mixture deadly, poisoning the minds of the simple and unwary.

How is this a "contaminant"
You say we are not guilty because we choose to sin, you say that we are guilty because of Adam.

If one does not do anything to be guilty, how is he truly guilty?
Please you reality, common sense & logic.

His idol will crumble, even as Sadaam Hussein's did in Iraq, if God ever gives him revelation that the Sovereign God and Father has given His Son Jesus the Christ and LORD as our Foundation, and not this so called free will.

All who are the called, who are called by His Name, may profit much by studying this grand illusion of free will.

"Free will has carried many souls to hell but never a soul to heaven." (CHS)

"The Sovereignty of God is the stumbling block on
which thousands fall and perish; and if we go contending with God about His sovereignty it will be our eternal ruin. It is absolutely necessary that we should submit to God as an absolute sovereign, and the sovereign of our souls;(Jonathan Edwards).

It does not mean that HE is the ultimate cause of everything.
It does not mean that HE is the ultimate controller of everything.

The Sovereignty of God means that He is the ultimate authority of everything.
The Sovereignty of God means that ultimately all mankind is accountable to God.

as one who may have mercy on whom He will have mercy and harden whom He will"

There is good reason for whom God chooses to be gracious to and to whom HE will show mercy on.
God knows the heart of man. HE knows if & when they will yield or not to His judgments and commandments.

God will be gracious to & show mercy on those HE knows will yield. For this is the character of God.
God is not stating that He is arbitrary, for that is against His character.

It is not saying that He can do anything He wants, just because He is God, for God's character has a boundary.

God has His own reasons for mercy which are based upon standards outside of Himself which has been before creation and are also according to His character; He is...
selfless, Just, righteous, loving, companionate, peaceable, gentle, and easily entreated, full of mercy, without partiality...ect...

If you would recognize that there is good reason for acknowledging free will, you would not be like those who persecute the brethren.

thomasm wrote:
I was in my grandfather, when he became a Canadian, at that moment I became a Canadian,

How could you be canadian when you did not exist.
Canadians' must first exist to have a citizenship.
You must be alive to be a sitisen.

I was in Adam, when he sinned, and fell into darkness, so I was born in darkness, and needed the gosple to open my eyes.

"so to speak", you can't make a doctrine from an Idiomatice saying as "Even Levi, who receives tithes, paid tithes through Abraham, so to speak."

Therefore, it must mean that I sinned while in Adam.
This is the worst of hermeneutics & exegesis.

My point is you have given no criteria for why God elects.

Anything from ones own will is arbitrary. A choice needs to proceed from outside of one in order to be not arbitrary.

Is this all you’ve got? I have read this over and over again in your posts for more then a year now…like it is some sort of magical fact that stops election in its tracks. This statement in no way, shape, or form, presents some kind of ‘end all’ to the doctrine of election.

God is Just. God is Righteous. God is Pure. God is Holy. Anything He chooses is with perfect justice, righteousness, and reason. Just because God does not furnish you with all the particulars you think you deserve does not make Him or His decision arbitrary. This is just more of man’s perverted logic attempting to stuff God (infinite) into man’s (finite) understanding.

Sorry, but God just doesn’t fit in your box.

Grace and peace

tjservant wrote:

My point is you have given no criteria for why God elects.

Anything from ones own will is arbitrary. A choice needs to proceed from outside of one in order to be not arbitrary.

Is this all you’ve got? I have read this over and over again in your posts for more then a year now…like it is some sort of magical fact that stops election in its tracks. This statement in no way, shape, or form, presents some kind of ‘end all’ to the doctrine of election.

God is Just. God is Righteous. God is Pure. God is Holy. Anything He chooses is with perfect justice, righteousness, and reason.

Just because God does not furnish you with all the particulars you think you deserve does not make Him or His decision arbitrary.

This is just more of man's perverted logic attempting to stuff God (infinite) into man's (finite) understanding.

Sorry, but God just doesn't fit in your box.

Quote:Logic wrote
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

thomasm wrote:
I was in my grandfather, when he became a Canadian, at that moment I became a Canadian,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Come on, that is unscriptural.
If I may ask, where did you get thjis Idea?

How could you be canadian when you did not exist.
Canadians' must first exist to have a citizenship.
You must be alive to be a sitisen.
----------------------------------
Where's your logic, If my grangfather became Austrailian I certianly would not be a Canadain Today, my whole destiny would be different. Because he became a Canadain I was born one,I didn't have to seek citizenship, it was mine before I was even conceived. Why is this hard to understand.

Do you believe we are born without sin?
If so, if we lived all our life without sin would we be received by the Father?
If someone never sinned would they still need Jesus to redeem them?
I just want to know where your coming from, when
you speak against, the passed down sinful nature.

I agree, after new birth, we have power over tempation, and shouldn't use sin nature as a excuse, because it was crucified with Christ, but not all believers know this in experience yet, so God's mercy and grace keeps us, until we know the Christ in us better.

Love in CHRIST tom

thomasm wrote:
Where's your logic, If my grangfather became Austrailian I certianly would not be a Canadain Today, my whole destiny would be different.

Because he became a Canadian I was born one, I didn't have to seek citizenship, it was mine before I was even conceived. Why is this hard to understand?

Do you believe we are born without sin?

If so, if we lived all our life without sin would we be received by the Father?

If someone never sinned would they still need Jesus to redeem them?

I just want to know where you're coming from, when you speak against, the passed down sinful nature

I agree, after new birth, we have power over temptation

and shouldn't use sin nature as a excuse, because it was crucified with Christ

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Do you believe we are born without sin?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How could we be if sin is a choice?
Or since we've never chose to sinned yet?
-----------------------------------------------
Explain Rom.3.9-31

ver.9 "...jews and gentiles alike are all under sin.
ver. 10...there is no one righteous, not even one;
11.there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.
12. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."
Paul is talking about Jew and Gentile here, its is very clear that no one is righteous. That is all inclusive, every man women child.

ver 20. "Therefore no one will be declared righteous in His sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

Ver.23 For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,..."

So we could keep the law and not be righteous in his sight. We can be law keepers on the outside, but be full of sin on the inside. Luke.11. 39-40
Rom 5. 1-21
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

and shouldn't use sin nature as a excuse, because it was crucified with Christ
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your getting your theology in the way of Scripture, "we are crucified with Christ", not our nature.

---------------------------------------
Rom. 6.6-7 "For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be rendered powerless, that we should no longer be slaves to sin-- because any one who has died has been freed from sin."
Rom. 7.5-6 " For when we were controled by the sinful nature,{or flesh} the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have bee released from the law so that we serve the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code."

We were born with the sinful nature, or flesh nature, but in Christ we were delivered from the kingdom of darkness, and tranlated into the kingdom of light.

Love in CHRIST tom

thomasm wrote:

Do you believe we are born without sin?

How could we be if sin is a choice?
Or since we've never chose to sinned yet?

Explain Rom.3.9-31

ver.9 "...jews and gentiles alike are all under sin.
ver. 10...there is no one righteous, not even one;
11.there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.
12. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."
Paul is talking about Jew and Gentile here, its is very clear that no one is righteous. That is all inclusive, every man women child.
Ver.23 For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,..."

ver 20. "Therefore no one will be declared righteous in His sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
So we could keep the law and not be righteous in his sight. We can be law keepers on the outside, but be full of sin on the inside. Luke.11. 39-40

The reason that anyone can not be justified by the law is because they already broke it.
Jesus never did, that is how & why he was justified by the law.
If there was another man besides Jesus who fulfilled the law from his youth up, he would of coarse be justified by it.

and shouldn't use sin nature as a excuse, because it was crucified with Christ

Your getting your theology in the way of Scripture, "we are crucified with Christ", not our nature.

Rom. 6.6-7 "For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be rendered powerless, that we should no longer be slaves to sin-- because any one who has died has been freed from sin."

The term "old man" makes for the word play of "body of sin" in verse 6
The "old man" would be the person that Paul was before salvation.
Our old man (or who we were before we were saved) is the one that walked after the flesh in regards to our former behavior, having corrupted ourselves according to the deceitful lusts of the flesh.

This would agree to:
[b]Ephesians 4:22[/b] [color=990000]That you put off concerning [b]the former way of life the old man[/b], which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;[/color]
[b]Colosians 3:9[/b] [color=990000]Lie not one to another, seeing that you have put off [b]the old man with his deeds[/b];[/color]

As for Rom. 7.5-6, you no that the word is not nature, why do you use it?
Our flesh is not our nature.

As for Rom 5, I have posted the correct interpretation many other times, do you need me to do it again?

age of acountability.

Where is this in Scripture? Please show me.

roaringlamb wrote:

age of acountability.

Where is this in Scripture? Please show me.

[b]Deu 1:39[/b] [color=990000]Moreover your little ones, who you said should be a prey, and your children, [b]who in that day had no knowledge between good and evil[/b], they shall go in there, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.[/color]

Quote Logic said
"As for Rom. 7.5-6, you no that the word is not nature, why do you use it?
Our flesh is not our nature."
-------------------------------------------------
Strongs "#4561 sarx; prob. from the base, of 4563; flesh (as stripped of the skin),i.e.(strictly) the meat of an animal (as food), or (by extens.) the body(as opposed to the soul [or spirit], or as the symbol of what is external, or as the means of kindred), or (by impl.) human nature (with its frailties [phys. or mor.] and passions), or (spec.) a human being (as such):--carnal (-ly, +-ly minded), flesh([-ly])."

The word flesh means a lot more than just our physical body. Its from the base word that means flesh. That is why N.I.V. translated it (sinful nature) I don't know about you , but my physical body hasn't died yet, , so what part of me died with Christ, my sinful nature, or fleshly nature, or carnal mind.

When I gave my life to God, through Jesus, the sin that had me bound, was crucified with Christ, not by me, but by him. My whole life changed in a heart beat, the drunkenness was gone , my lips were made clean, my heart was filled with his love,the bitterness I had was exchanged for forgiveness and joy, I truly died to sin and was raised up a new creature on the inside.
But my flesh didn't change, except I felt lighter because my burden was taken away.
My hand or my foot have never told me what to do, the flesh is controlled by the mind, I've never heard of anyone doing anything apart from the mind.

As for children, I didn't mean to open that door, I just know that Jesus said "let the little children come to me, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." Or something like that.
I'll leave it at that.

Love in CHRIST tom

Logic-
So on the "strength" of two verses you build a doctrine, yet refuse to bend to a truth that is clearly taught in the totality of Scripture(God's sovereignty and election of individuals)?

So where is this( age of accountability) taught in the New Testament? If it is clearly taught in Scripture, it will be there too.

roaringlamb wrote:
Logic-
So on the "strength" of two verses you build a doctrine, yet refuse to bend to a truth that is clearly taught in the totality of Scripture(God's sovereignty and election of individuals)?

I don't refuse anything from Scripture, I only have it to make sence as where you have it as non-sence.
The correct interpretation of Scriptures is key & yours is tremendously outlandish.
The logical conclusion of your interpretation is...
...well you know.

So where is this (age of accountability) taught in the New Testament?

The reason that it is not mentioned as much as you want is because it is so morally obvious that the authors assumed it was nothing to be brought up.
The fact that it isn't in the New does not discount the fact that it isn't true as it is in the old.

Lets work this out using our mind since you reject the Old Testement:
Salvation is only by grace THROUGH (willing) faith upon the confession (Romans 10:9-10).
Infants can not have faith (because of their inability to understand), they can't even confess (because of their inability to work it out in their heart).

However, according to your theology, because all infants who can't understand to have faith in Christ & repent of things which they can't be accountable for & unable to confess with their mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in their heart that God has raised him from the dead, they must be damned because of their INABILITY of such (not their REFUSAL of such which is why people are damned)

All aborted, still-born, "Sudden Infant Death Syndrome...ect...
They are all doomed to hell, all because they CANT have faith with their heart, can't confess Christ as Lord, and can’t understand to repent.

If it is clearly taught in Scripture, it will be there too.

For instance, in order for anyone to be accountable, they need to be able.
However, this might not be so "blatantly obvious" since you argue against this also.

Let's make it more elementary;
Sin is only by choice; therefore, it is possible for a man to remain sinless all his life.
However, this might not be so "elementary" since you argue against this also; with the proof that it has been done and clearly taught in Scripture.

Let's make it as "DUH" as humanly possible, so even you can understand.
Sin is not anything to be inherited or transferred by blood.
However, this might not be so "DUH' as humanly possible" since you argue against this also.

Let's try one more:
No one can be guilty unless he has actually, physically done the crime.
Wait, you argue against this also.

Well, I guess you'll never get "Scriptural proof" that the innocent are actually innocent being "clearly taught in Scripture".

thomasm wrote:

The word flesh means a lot more than just our physical body. Its from the base word that means flesh. That is why N.I.V. translated it (sinful nature) I don't know about you , but my physical body hasn't died yet, , so what part of me died with Christ, my sinful nature, or fleshly nature, or carnal mind.

When I gave my life to God, through Jesus, the sin that had me bound, was crucified with Christ, not by me, but by him.

Have you ever considered being careful of what you believe?
Before adopting any thing to believe, first, study it to see exactly what the Scriptures mean & find the logical conclusion to it.

My whole life changed in a heart beat, the drunkenness was gone, my lips were made clean, my heart was filled with his love, the bitterness I had was exchanged for forgiveness and joy, I truly died to sin and was raised up a new creature on the inside. But my flesh didn't change, except I felt lighter because my burden was taken away

My hand or my foot have never told me what to do, the flesh is controlled by the mind, I've never heard of anyone doing anything apart from the mind.

The fact that you need Scriptural proof for something as in the innocence of infants proves how sick your doctrine is.

Then I suppose the fact that I need Scriptural support for any doctrine makes me sick as well then.

You have taken two verses, which were spoken to God's covenant people and then apply them to all of mankind and suppose you maintain Scriptural integrity. This is a dangerous way to come up with ones' theology brother.

Sin is only by choice; therefore, it is possible for a man to remain sinless all his life.

First, this is heresy.

Second, if sin is only a choice, what about our thoughts? What of the intentions of our heart?

Christ seemed to make sin more than just outward choices-
Mat 5:21 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.'
Mat 5:22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, 'You fool!' will be liable to the hell of fire.

Mat 5:27 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery.'
Mat 5:28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

The moralistic Pharisees thought they could indeed keep the Law because they observed "outward" works. However Christ constantly warned them of the inward filth and hypocrisy(See Matthew 23).

Now brother I must ask you a serious question, and please answer it seriously. Please refrain from any personal attacks or belittling comments.

In your view of man and salvation, why do you need Christ, and what makes you a Christian?

Brother Logic,

Let us for a moment say that your view is right(e.g. all men are born upright and innocent)and let us ask a few questions to see how innocent they really would be.

First, when men are born, do they know Christ? If not, then according to Scripture they are under God's wrath(John 3:36; Ephesians 2:1-3).

So if someone is born and does not know the true God, are they not guilty of idolatry? Regardless of age, we all worship and serve self and not God.

Second, if indeed all infants were innocent, why would they die before they had committed a sin? Sin would not have any consequence on them as they were not under its curse until committing actual sin(so say you).

But the fact of the matter is that infants die in the womb, and even before a so called "age of accountability".(I personally believe that God in mercy regenerates those infants and they are saved)

So the bottom line in this is if death is the result of sin and no one is born without sin and all die, how do you say that man is good and could be sinless?

roaringlamb wrote:

The fact that you need Scriptural proof for something as in the innocence of infants proves how sick your doctrine is.

Then I suppose the fact that I need Scriptural support for any doctrine makes me sick as well then.

My point was that it is in the New Testament as a concept from the Old Testament, but not in any verse in the New Testament.

Since it is in the Old Testament, it must be in the New.
Even though it ain’t in any verse, it must be acknowledged.

I don't know how you can deny such a thing.

You have taken two verses

which were spoken to God's covenant people and then apply them to all of mankind and suppose you maintain Scriptural integrity?

This is a dangerous way to come up with ones' theology brother.

Sin is only by choice; therefore, it is possible for a man to remain sinless all his life.

First, this is heresy.

What is the purpose of Jesus never being able to sin only because HE is God?
How would that be of any worth.
He is the second Adam.
Jesus proved it to be possible never to sin.
Jesus must have been able to sin as we are;
Vise-verse
We must be able to [b]not[/b] sin as HE was.

If sin is really a choice, then it must be truly [b]possible[/b] for a man to remain sinless all his life.
If not, you have God condemning for that which is inevitable and impossible to comply to. That is an out right injustice.
It is plain logic & common sense which some people leave at the door of their church.

Second, if sin is only a choice, what about our thoughts? What of the intentions of our heart?

Do you think that you’ll say, “It was impossible for me [b]not[/b] to sin”.
Or
“Hey, sin is inevitable, I was bound to sin no matter what”

If those are true, God MUST let you off the hook!

Now brother I must ask you a serious question, and please answer it seriously. Please refrain from any personal attacks or belittling comments.

In your view of man and salvation, why do you need Christ.

In contrast:
I don’t need God to judge me for anything that is not my fault.
I don’t need God to judge me for what I can’t avoid
I don’t need God to judge me that which is inevitable
I don’t need God to judge me for things I couldn’t help.
Since no one is even judged in reality for those, why do you think that God will?

and what makes you a Christian?

I am a Christian because choose to I Love Him, because HE is always loving all mankind all along.
I am a Christian because I willfully, intentionally put my very own faith in & on what Christ has said & done.
I am a Christian because I am choosing to keep repenting of my sins, all the while I always could have.
I am a Christian because I forgive other as He forgave me.
I am a Christian because I love the brethren.
I am a Christian because I choose to walk after the spirit so I will not walk after the flesh to fulfill its lusts.
I am a Christian because I choose to be lead by Him, taught by Him, influenced by Him, and persuaded by Him.
I am a Christian because I choose stay with Him…ect…

Do you think that on the day of judgment that you can actually tell God, “oh, those thoughts and those intentions, I couldn’t help those. I’m innocent”.

There were alot of things I would like to address in your reply, but I do not really have the time.

This however is something I would like to get at.

In response to this, I would never say I am innocent for the things I thought or for evil intentions(even as a Christian).

Do you think that you’ll say, “It was impossible for me not to sin”. Or “Hey, sin is inevitable, I was bound to sin no matter what”

Yes I would have to say that I was born to sin and justly under God's wrath for being a sinner by nature and choice.

If those are true, God MUST let you off the hook!

No, but in His amazing grace and mercy, He provides a righteousness that allows Him to forgive and cover my sins because He foreknew me and called me and justified me.

Christ's obedience is credited to my account and the Holy Spirit works in me to conform me to Christ's image just as I was predestined to be(this is from Romans 8 by the way).

As to your comment on the Law not being for all people, I think you should learn how to differentiate between what is for God's covenant people and what is for mankind in general.

The Gentiles were not given dietary laws, or any of the ordinances of worship that Israel was given. However the Gentiles are guilty of idolatry as Romans 1 clearly tells us.

[url=http://www.funnieststuff.net/viewmovie.php?id=1028]This link will prove everthing you have doubts about.[/url]
Untill then, I will get back to you.

This link will prove everything you have doubts about.

That Muppets are entertaining? :-P

I had forgot about them, so thanks for the reminder.

roaringlamb wrote:

Do you think that on the day of judgment that you can actually tell God, “oh, those thoughts and those intentions, I couldn’t help those. I’m innocent”.

There were alot of things I would like to address in your reply, but I do not really have the time.

This however is something I would like to get at.

In response to this, I would never say I am innocent for the things I thought or for evil intentions(even as a Christian).

Do you think that you'll say, “It was impossible for me not to sin”. Or “Hey, sin is inevitable, I was bound to sin no matter what”

Yes I would have to say that I was born to sin and justly under God's wrath for being a sinner by nature and choice.

If those are true, God MUST let you off the hook!

No

but in His amazing grace and mercy, He provides a righteousness that allows Him to forgive and cover my sins because He foreknew me and called me and justified me.

Christ's obedience is credited to my account

As to your comment on the Law not being for all people, [b]I think you should learn how to differentiate between[/b] what is for God's covenant people and what is for mankind in general.

I was talking about the Ten Commandments.
They are for all mankind.

Re; Logic
After reading the other threads on this subject, I see that it is pointless to continue any more debate, as I will never accept your view, and you will never accept mine. Although I do agree that the blood of Jesus was enough, I don't accept freewill, but choice (life or death). The word freewill infers a third option. We can only understanding what the Holy Spirit has opened our understanding to, the word is only words, without revelation, or the monks would have had a major revival.
I just pray that the Father our our Lord Jesus Christ will give us a Spirit of revelation in the knowledge of Him, so that our differences can become less and our fellowship in the Spirit greater, that our Love may abound.
I've been 25 years in the Lord, some good some not so good, under grace, under law, under predesination, but Gods grace has seen me through, and I know we have to chose him minute by minute to keep us in the truth.

Love in Christ tom

God certainly can not justly condemn for things which are not by choice?

I am born a sinner by nature and show that truth by choice. As are all men.

If sin is your purpose (that which you were born to do), then sin is not wrong for you.

Man was not created in sin, but good. However since the fall, all are born sinful and show that by their actions. There are no perfect people aside from Christ.

The worst sin I commit is that I am born estranged from God and am His enemy . I refuse to worship Him as God and refuse to love and obey His Son because it means that I am not in charge of my life. The idol I have created and worshiped is enough to condemn me, and left to my own devices, I would have it no other way.

Why does He provide righteousness to you & not others equally wretched as you were?

I will let Scripture answer this-
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
Eph 1:5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
Eph 1:6 [b]to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.[/b]

I am not special at all, all praise is to Him who for some reason loved me and know I love Him.

Are you implying that Jesus obeyed for you? Or that Christ's obedience to the law was accounted as your obedience?

Yes as that is what the Scriptures teach. Christ actively obeyed the Law perfectly and passively fulfilled the Law by dying for the broken commandments. He became a curse for me, He who knew no sin was made to be sin for me so that I would be the righteousness of God in Him.

I was talking about the Ten Commandments. They are for all mankind.

I think I said that in my post.

But the verses you quoted to prove an "age of accountability" are to ethnic Israel, not every human being.

So again, can you quote one verse from the New Testament that shows an "age of accountability"?

If this teaching is as clear as you say, you should have no problem.

Brother Logic let me tell you why I hold an unflinching view on God's sovereignty or as it is nicknamed "Calvinism".

First and foremost, it is Scriptural through and through. But secondly, the day my wife left our marriage I was left with a choice- either God had no idea it would happen and I had made the greatest mistake in my life even getting married, or

God was sovereign and would work all these things for good.

I saw then that ALL things are subordinate to the risen Christ and His plan for me.

The day my wife filed for divorce, I had a choice to make, either God could be over and above all events in my life or He is a complete stranger to all I am going through.

I have struggled much through this season and I would be a liar to say it was easy or not painful, BUT behind it all is an all-loving, almighty God who will take what has been meant for evil and turn it for good.

He must be sovereign in order to do that.

I am a Christian because I took the responsibility

of my own choices ...

to sin against God & His law,

because I could have not sinned against Him

and could have come to Him in order to keep His; law by the spirit in faith.

I did that because I chose to be convicted by His Law.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[i]The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.[/i] John 6:41-44

Logic, has it occurred to you that your philosophy is that of the Pharisees? To boil this out to it's 'logical' conclusion you have no need of being born again, a series of classes on ethics would get you the same results that you forward.

Where you are trying to force this into neat and clean abstracts is precisely the error of your thinking. "You" or the term "I", as you continually repeat it is king of your construct, that [i]you[/i], of [i]your[/i] own "free" choices could have both prevented your own fall and that all things are prevented by the word 'possible' which is the hinge word of this whole matter and where you are stuck. The facts are contrary to all of human experience. You are making Jesus out to be someone less than He is.

Mat 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know ...

The problem with this 'possibility' mantra is it's successful failure rate. It is unblemished with exceptions, no one has successfully lived out their life without sin despite the 'possibility' otherwise and it proves out the matter for you if you had ears to hear it.

Only One without sin, only one. What He took on, put on, was tempted by [i]in all points[/i] does not make Him the [u]example[/u] as your quasi-logic continues to infer. He is the judge of all men, the King of Glory, the first and the last, the one who condescended ... Do you fully realize what that means? Your 'logic' elevates mans supposed ability to do things on his own - To in essence please God by his own ability, compunction and supposed moral fortitude. Pull up the boot straps and get to work.

[i]For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.[/i]

[i]The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven[/i]

Not only are you at enmity with God, you are at enmity with yourself. Your logic is full of prideful boasting not necessarily because of your words per se but because it is woven throughout in your stubbornness to recognize just [i]what[/i] you are as well as [i]who[/i] you are.

It is pride I believe to attempt to get into the gears of God's workings and start tinkering around. It is the great problem of pride in most of us, that it still seeks after this knowledge forbidden us. Repeating ...

Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Rom 9:20 [b] Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?[/b]

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Shall the thing formed say ... ? Shall [i]Logic[/i] say ... ?

[i] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.[/i]

Your pride does not like to admit it, your bent, your inclination otherwise, your possibilities and philosophies and theology, even the whole incredible irony otherwise that you continue to prove out with your rational and logic in a self defeating manner ... There is a reason that you [i]must[/i] be born ...

[i]again.[/i]

Other than what you [i]are[/i]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

BTW - Loved the Muppet bit

roaringlamb wrote:

God certainly can not justly condemn for things which are not by choice?

I am born a sinner by nature and show that truth by choice. As are all men.

If sin is your purpose (that which you were born to do), then sin is not wrong for you.

Man was not created in sin, but good. However since the fall, all are born sinful and show that by their actions. There are no perfect people aside from Christ.

There is a possibility for perfect men not outside of Christ, but from birth.

The worst sin I commit is that I am born estranged from God and am His enemy.

I refuse to worship Him as God and refuse to love and obey His Son because it means that I am not in charge of my life.

The idol I have created and worshiped is enough to condemn me, and left to my own devices, I would have it no other way.

I will let Scripture answer this-
Eph 1:

Why does He provide righteousness to you & not others equally wretched as you were?

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
Eph 1:5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
Eph 1:6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

I am not special at all, all praise is to Him who for some reason loved me and know I love Him.

Are you implying that Jesus obeyed for you? Or that Christ's obedience to the law was accounted as your obedience?

Yes as that is what the Scriptures teach.

Christ actively obeyed the Law perfectly and passively fulfilled the Law by dying for the broken commandments. He became a curse for me, He who knew no sin was made to be sin for me so that I would be the righteousness of God in Him.

The law was actually broken when Jesus hung on the cross.
Men broke the law by attempting to kill Him.
However, Jesus laid his own life down, which is not breaking the law, no one killed Him.

But the verses you quoted to prove an "age of accountability" are to ethnic Israel, not every human being.

So again, can you quote one verse from the New Testament that shows an "age of accountability"?

If this teaching is as clear as you say, you should have no problem.

Brother Logic let me tell you why I hold an unflinching view on God's sovereignty or as it is nicknamed "Calvinism".

First and foremost, it is Scriptural through and through.

But secondly, the day my wife left our marriage I was left with a choice- either God had no idea it would happen and I had made the greatest mistake in my life even getting married, or

God was sovereign and would work all these things for good.

I saw then that ALL things are subordinate to the risen Christ and His plan for me.

You don't need to adopt a nonsensical theology as Calvinism to see that God knows about what will happen, & that He will work all these things for good.

Secondly, about you having made the greatest mistake in your life getting married; what is wrong with that?
Are you, looking to let your self off the hook for your own or your own mistake?

Or putting the blame on God for your wife leaving, as to God orchestrating it?

The day my wife filed for divorce, I had a choice to make, either God could be over and above all events in my life or He is a complete stranger to all I am going through.

I have struggled much through this season and I would be a liar to say it was easy or not painful, BUT behind it all is an all-loving, almighty God who will take what has been meant for evil and turn it for good.

He must be sovereign in order to do that.

Tell me pleez, what do you do with all those things which are contrary to reality about your theology?
How do you deal with all those nonsensical things which Calvinism &/or reformed theology claims?

All sinners go to hell.

Then how will you get into Heaven? You and I sin every day. You cannot honestly say that every moment of every day you love God with ALL your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself.

Breaking the Law is sin is it not? So if you break the Law, you are a sinner. God cannot overlook the breaking of the Law and its need to be punished. Thus Christ was a substitute for the ungodly that we might be redeemed.

Did you sin before you were born in order to be a sinner? No.

Yes, I did as did you in Adam. We are all guilty and receive the wages of sin- death. By God's great mercy and providence, you and I were allowed to live from the womb until this day.

There is a possibility for perfect men not outside of Christ, but from birth.

Does it not bother you that you are following the same exact heresy of Pelagius?

If there were even the smallest chance that a man could be perfect, then Christ did not need to die.

If He only died to make reconciliation possible, then there must be something that caused separation(i.e. sin). So then only those who are sinners will see the need for a Savior.

I don't think you understand this. It seems to me that you think that you can earn your way into Heaven by your deeds. If so, I feel very sorry for you as Scripture clearly says that all of our righteousness is as filthy rags before God.

How did you "commit" being born estranged?

I am by nature(birth) a child of wrath because I do not believe in Christ. Now of course an infant can't really understand the Gospel, but they do die, and as I have said before, I feel that God regenerates infants and takes them to Heaven.

But as time goes on, men will show their true heart for "out the heart proceed all manner of evil".

All mankind is born estranged from the true God and must be reconciled through Christ.

As an infant?

It's in there, it takes time to manifest itself. Children do not have to be taught how to be selfish, or how to lie. They know that blame shifting and lying will benefit them and they do it. Thus they have broken the Law and are guilty.

You did't answer the question of why & what is the the distinction.

The distinction is that God chose me before the foundation of the Earth for His own pleasure and so that His grace would be manifest and all would praise Him for His amazing mercy.

There is nothing for me to boast about, the only thing I did was contribute to my damnation. I bring my sin, He clothes me in His righteousness.

This doctrine of an imputed obedience for righteousness, or that Christ's obedience to the law was accounted as our obedience, is founded on a false assumption.

Why would God in the flesh have to fulfill the Law for Himself?

Also, how do you plan on standing before God if Christ's righteousness is not put to your account? Would you dare say that YOU have kept all that is needed to stand before a holy God?

If Christ's obedience and righteousness are not ours by faith, then we have no hope because NO ONE can fulfill all that God requires and we must have a righteousness that comes from "outside" of ourselves.

Jesus actually died FOR His Father, not the broken commandments.

Is that the only reason? Let's look at some Scripture-
Isa 53:4 Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned--every one--to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Isa 53:10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Isa 53:11 Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, [b]make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities.[/b]

Mat 20:28 even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and [b]to give his life as a ransom for many.[/b]

John 10:11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

2Co 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and [b]gave himself for me.[/b]

Seems to me that He died for more than just His Father. Christ was dying in the place of people just like the OT sacrifices were given in the place of people. The ones coming to God then did not offer their own blood to God, but rather the blood of a representative.

Are you saying that only Jews have an age of accountability?

No, I am saying that you twisting two verses to develop a doctrine. Based on how you come up with doctrines, I suppose I could make a very good case for having multiple wives at the same time, and I think I would have more verses to back that up.

It's in the Old Testament, to "ethnic Israel" (I agree) which would also mean for the rest of mankind because there is no difference(Rom 10:12). Children are children no matter the ethnicity.

First off that verse from Romans has no application to this especially how you are trying to use it. If that were the case, then why weren't the Egyptians and Canaanites bound to God by circumcision? After all there is no difference and the Law to Israel was for "all" people.

Brother, God chose a people for Himself(Israel)not based on anything other than His good pleasure and to keep His covenant. As a matter of fact, Christ was foreordained to be a lamb slaughtered before the foundation of the world. So history is the unfolding of that redemptive plan.

I know it is offensive to you to think that God chooses some people and not others, but it is Scriptural truth, God chose Israel not Egypt. God chose Israel not Babylon.

Even though Israel committed the same sins as the nations around them, God kept His word and brought the Messiah. It is God's free choice that is amazing, not mans'.

crsschk wrote:
Logic, has it occurred to you that your philosophy is that of the Pharisees? To boil this out to it's 'logical' conclusion you have no need of being born again, a series of classes on ethics would get you the same results that you forward.

So how would you think that is the logical conclusion?

Where you are trying to force this into neat and clean abstracts is precisely the error of your thinking. "You" or the term "I", as you continually repeat it is king of your construct,

that you, of your own "free" choices could have both prevented your own fall

No one has yet explained how guilt is charged for something that is inevitable.
Will you explain using common sense and by staying with-in the bounds of reality?

and that all things are prevented by the word 'possible' which is the hinge word of this whole matter and where you are stuck.

The facts are contrary to all of human experience. You are making Jesus out to be someone less than He is.

Mat 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know ...
The problem with this 'possibility' mantra is it's successful failure rate. It is unblemished with exceptions, no one has successfully lived out their life without sin despite the 'possibility' otherwise and it proves out the matter for you if you had ears to hear it.

Only One without sin, only one. What He took on, put on, was tempted by in all points does not make Him the example as your quasi-logic continues to infer.

He is the judge of all men, the King of Glory, the first and the last, the one who condescended ... Do you fully realize what that means?

He is completely 100% human with the very same kind of flesh as we have, along with the very same weaknesses for temptation.
If the reason that He never sin is more than we have the ability to do the same, Jesus would not be the perfect sacrifice or the perfect High Priest.

Jesus is the second Adam to prove that it was possible to do what Adam had failed to do.

Your 'logic' elevates mans supposed ability to do things on his own - To in essence please God by his own ability, compunction and supposed moral fortitude. Pull up the boot straps and get to work.

For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven

Not only are you at enmity with God, you are at enmity with yourself.

I hate to sound like a broken record, but do you know what your argument is against?

Unless you can prove that guilt can be charged to inevitable & charged to not doing the impossible, you are beating a dead horse with your allegations.

Your logic is full of prideful boasting not necessarily because of your words per se but because it is woven throughout in your stubbornness to recognize just what you are as well as who you are.

The "who" you are, is your own fault, because you alone chose the path to become who you are.

It is pride I believe to attempt to get into the gears of God's workings and start tinkering around.

It is the great problem of pride in most of us, that it still seeks after this knowledge forbidden us. Repeating
Romans 9:14-21

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Your pride does not like to admit it, your bent, your inclination otherwise, your possibilities and philosophies and theology, even the whole incredible irony otherwise that you continue to prove out with your rational and logic in a self defeating manner ... There is a reason that you must be born

Proverbs 25:27-28 It is not good to eat much honey: so for men to search their own glory is not glory. He that hath no rule over his own spirit is like a city that is broken down, and without walls.

In God's eyes there is no man that is wise, no matter how much rule he has over his own soul.

"Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?"

Even if a man could keep the Law perfect, it would still be foolishness to God. The Law has no life in it, only surrender to the Law or death in the Law. There is only life in Christ. No matter how many questions man can put before God, to make God worthy of His choosing what gives Him pleasure and to man makes Him selfish, condemning and with no right to make man guilty before Him, even in the inability of man to be what God requires for Holiness and righteousness and salvation, man cannot say to God why did you make me this way, why did you not give me the ability to be what you require me to be, for He is the Potter and we are just the clay pots. He will make those that He chooses to be what He requires them to be, that is in conformity to His requirement not mans, that is being conformed to His Son Jesus Christ and no other conformity will do. You can call God, not fare, and all that man has given God as being selfish and any other condemnation of His Plan, but He is Still God and He will do what He requires of Himself to make son's for His own House. His birthing, His choice, His Plan in Christ Jesus which He predestinated those that are His to be, even before He created man and woman. His plan is still on perfect tract and will not go off course.
All I can do is praise Him that Has chosen me to be a son. All that are not son's, in fairness to God who made all things, His choices are still perfect, even before man who chooses not to make Him the One in who they have to deal with.

The good character of a wise and virtuous man implied. He is one that has rule over his own spirit; he maintains the government of himself, and of his own appetites and passions, and does not suffer them to rebel against reason and conscience. He has the rule of his own thoughts, his desires, his inclinations, his resentments, and keeps them all in good order.

Still lacking in the perfection of God's Plan. For the foolishness of God is wiser than wisdom of man.

1 Corinthians 1:17-31 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Glory in the Lord, for He is the only One in whom we live and move and have our being. For the weakness of God is stronger than the strongest of men.

May God deal with me as He pleases, I trust to His Good Pleasure and Judgement, be it good or bad, from my standpoint, but for His, Perfect.

In Christ: Phillip

roaringlamb wrote:

All sinners go to hell.

Then how will you get into Heaven?

You cannot honestly say that every moment of every day you love God with ALL your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself.

Breaking the Law is sin is it not? So if you break the Law, you are a sinner.

Just because one gives in to sin every once in a while does not mean he is a sinner.

No where in the bible calls Christians sinners.
67 times is the word sinner(s) in the Bible. The word sinner(s) are all toward the ones who are heading towards hell.
Paul calls himself a sinner (1Tim 1:15) out of regret & remorse, after explaining that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for sinners among other things(1Tim 1:9-10).

Paul was certainly a righteous man, therefore the law was not made for him any longer, and He can not truly be called a sinner.

God cannot overlook the breaking of the Law and its need to be punished. Thus Christ was a substitute for the ungodly that we might be redeemed.

Did you sin before you were born in order to be a sinner? No.

Yes, I did as did you in Adam.

Furthermore, it turns sin into something which it is not.
Sin must be actually committed by the person for him to be charged of guilt, this is a fact of reality which you deny.

Another fact of reality is that I was created in America in my mother's womb, I did not come to America because I was "in my father's loins" when he did, I did not exist then.
If you take this from Hebrews 7:9-10, You must notice that it is from an idiom "as I may so say"...
:10 was yet in the loins of his father"
Do not make a doctrine from an idiom.

You can only come to these conclusions by twisting Scripture.
Show me which ones they are, please?

You have not yet had one piece of your theology to make any sense at all.

There is a possibility for perfect men not outside of Christ, but from birth.

Does it not bother you that you are following the same exact heresy of Pelagius?

Does it not bother your theology does not make any sense at all?

Does it not bother you that your theology never holds to the true definitions important words?

If there were even the smallest chance that a man could be perfect, then Christ did not need to die.

If He only died to make reconciliation possible, then there must be something that caused separation(i.e. sin). So then only those who are sinners will see the need for a Savior.

Yes, only those who are sinners will see the need for a Savior.
However, the sinless would need Him also.

I don't think you understand this. It seems to me that you think that you can earn your way into Heaven by your deeds.

Furthermore, I don't think you understand this, but no one earns anything being sinless, for that is what one is supposed to be in the first place.
[b]Luk 17:10[/b] [color=990000]So likewise you, when you shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was [b]our duty[/b] to do.[/color]

On the contrary to this, you claim that all mankind are supposed to be sinful.

If so, I feel very sorry for you as Scripture clearly says that all of our righteousness is as filthy rags before God.

How did you "commit" being born estranged?

I am by nature(birth) a child of wrath because I do not believe in Christ.

Is it wrong for a pig to wallow in the mud after being washed!
No, because it is it's nature, but it is wrong for us because it against our nature.

Is it wrong for a dog to return to his vomit?
No, because it is it's nature, but it is wrong for us because it against our nature.
If we had a so called "sin nature" it would not be wrong to sin.

Quit using your nature as an excuse for your free will to sin.

Again, How did you "commit" being born estranged?
How are you guilty for it?

Now of course an infant can't really understand the Gospel, but they do die, and as I have said before, I feel that God regenerates infants and takes them to Heaven.

All mankind is born estranged from the true God and must be reconciled through Christ

Children do not have to be taught how to be selfish, or how to lie.

Did Lucifer need taught to sin?
Why don't you not think He had a "sin nature"?
How bout Adam?

You didn't answer the question of why & what is the distinction.

The distinction is that God chose me before the foundation of the Earth for His own pleasure and so that His grace would be manifest and all would praise Him for His amazing mercy.

Knowing that choosing only by ones will with no outside standard is the definition of arbitrary?
&
Having partiality means to have an undue biased towards something.

So if God chooses you for no reason other than just because HE wanted to & all others are equal, then you have God showing undue favor, having partiality.

This doctrine of an imputed obedience for righteousness, or that Christ's obedience to the law was accounted as our obedience, is founded on a false assumption.

Why would God in the flesh have to fulfill the Law for Himself?

Also to prove that is possible.

Also, how do you plan on standing before God if Christ's righteousness is not put to your account? Would you dare say that YOU have kept all that is needed to stand before a holy God?

It is Him. Jesus is our righteousness.
That which makes anyone righteous is the same that made Abraham righteous.
Abraham's faith was accounted as righteousness, so is it with every one else.
Our faith makes us righteous, Jesus is our righteousness.

Were does it say that the righteousness which is accounted to us is something else but Christ Himself?
Not what He has, but Him.

If Christ's obedience and righteousness are not ours by faith, then we have no hope because NO ONE can fulfill all that God requires and we must have a righteousness that comes from "outside" of ourselves.

Jesus actually died FOR His Father, not the broken commandments.

Is that the only reason? Let's look at some Scripture-

Christ was dying in the place of people just like the OT sacrifices were given in the place of people. The ones coming to God then did not offer their own blood to God, but rather the blood of a representative.
Quote:

Are you saying that only Jews have an age of accountability?

No, I am saying that you twisting two verses to develop a doctrine. Based on how you come up with doctrines, I suppose I could make a very good case for having multiple wives at the same time, and I think I would have more verses to back that up.

It's in the Old Testament, to "ethnic Israel" (I agree) which would also mean for the rest of mankind because there is no difference(Rom 10:12). Children are children no matter the ethnicity.

First off that verse from Romans has no application to this especially how you are trying to use it. If that were the case, then why weren't the Egyptians and Canaanites bound to God by circumcision? After all there is no difference and the Law to Israel was for "all" people.

Brother, God chose a people for Himself(Israel)not based on anything other than His good pleasure and to keep His covenant.

As a matter of fact, Christ was foreordained to be a lamb slaughtered before the foundation of the world. So history is the unfolding of that redemptive plan.

I know it is offensive to you to think that God chooses some people and not others, but it is Scriptural truth, God chose Israel not Egypt. God chose Israel not Babylon.

Even though Israel committed the same sins as the nations around them, God kept His word and brought the Messiah. It is God's free choice that is amazing, not mans.

Eph: 2; 1-9 (niv)As for you , you were dead in
your transgressions and sins, in which you used
to live when you followed the ways of this world
and the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the
spirit who is now at work in those who are
disobedient. All of us also lived among them at
one time, gratifying the craving of our sinful
nature (flesh) and following its desires and
thoughts. Like the rest, we were by *NATURE*
objects of wrath. But because of his great love
for us, God who is rich in mercy, made us alive
with Christ even when we were dead in
\\ transgressions- it is by grace you have been
saved . And God raised us up with Christ and
seated us with him in the heavenly realms in
Christ Jesus, In order that in the coming ages
he might show the incomparable riches of his
grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ
Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved,
through faith- and this not from yourselves, it
is the gift of God- not by works, so that no one
can boast.

*nature* Strongs #5449 phusis; from 5453; growth
(by germination or expansion) i.e. (by impl.)
natural production (lineal descent); by extens. a
genus of sort; fig. native disposition,
constitution or usage;-([man-]) kind, nature ([-al]).

Gal; 2:15 "We who are Jews by *BIRTH* and
not 'Gentile sinners' know that a man is not
justified by observing the law, but by faith in
Jesus Christ."
The word birth is the same Greek word.

2Pet:1: 4 has the same word. "Through these he
has given us his very great and precious
promises, so that through them you may
participate in the divine *NATURE* and escape the
corruption in the world caused by evil desires."

Just some food for thought.

Love in Christ tom

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