Who on Sermon Index speaks in Tounges

Out of interest who on Sermon Index speaks in tounges?????????????

murrcolr wrote:
Out of interest who on Sermon Index speaks in tongues?

but the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, gentleness, and self–control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. If we live by the Spirit, let’s also walk by the Spirit.
Galatians 5.22-25

The church definitely needs the power to heal but I say it needs the power to LOVE abundantly more than it needs to work miracles!

Colin, what earthly or eternal good are the gifts of the Spirit if God's people can't be known by the fruit of the Spirit? Sadly, the church is more known by the fruits of the flesh instead of the Fruit of the Spirit. [edit: this is especially true among so-called tongue talkers and if you are honest, you know it to be true as well. If speaking in tongues was our end-of-all-problems, we should be clean as a whistle but it's not true.]

I ask this because Jesus said the ONE thing, the one thing that we would know false prophets and teachers by is their fruit, He did not mention their gifts. [He did mention gifts in Matthew 7.22-23]

Ephesians 5.8 For you were once darkness, but are now light in the Lord. Walk as children of light, 9) for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth, 10) proving what is well pleasing to the Lord.

This shows that it's the Fruit of the Spirit in us that proves what is well pleasing to the Lord! Amen? And not gifts.

To me the question should be, who here has the fruit of love, joy, peace, kindness, goodness, faith, gentleness and self-control? What evidence do you have?

;-) :-) ;-)

God bless, Colin!!

Thanks for your answer.

Do I love God with all my heart, do I love people like I love myself. Do I have any bitterness, am I slow to anger like God is slow to anger. Do I have any pride, do I forget about an evil done or do I hold a grudge.

The fruits of the spirit or pretending to have the fruits of the spirit, trying to be Godly in my own strengh or truly being Godly. Having a form of Godliness but deny God's power.

Can God do more for this sinful man than just justify me or do I have to wait until death until I am free from this sinful nature. Can death be my deliverer?

Who then can set me free from this inclination to sin?

These are some of the questions I have in my head. But for the time being I would like to know about anyone on here who talks in tounges or as you prefer prays in tounges.

Hi everyone,

I think that it should be appearant to us that the Church needs exaclty what God is or is willing to give to it, in exactly the same measure as He would give it.

The same Spirit that produces the fruit of holiness also divides to every man as He will, gifts, for the eddification of the body and for the furtherance of the Gospel.

Our denunciations of others who lack gifts as being less spiritual are obnoxious and our claims to superior piety over those that lack fruits in as abundant measure as ourselves are obnoxious.

Holy living is as much needed among those that count it sport to riot in the day as supernatural power and demonstration is needed among those held captive under supernatural powers of darkness.

The Apostle Paul considered it as much right to remind the Thessalonians of their(the Apostles) holy and unblamable example among them as he did to declare to the Romans how he had fully preached the Gospel through mighty signs and wonders by the power of the Spirit of God.

Let us therefore not cover over with piety any secret or hidden disdain for anything that God has given and let us not hide a lack of holiness with proud or boastful demonstrations of power that we seek.

But let us seek to have compassion on the multitudes in all the same ways the Master did. In healing, and in teaching, in power, and in words, and let us be fully convinced [b]that if it is of God, it is all of love[/b].

I think the best way to know if someone exercises the true, genuine gift of glossolalia is if they don't like to talk about it, or preach messages about it, or defend it, or insinuate a debate on it. Paul was an exception (none of the other apostles mentioned how they spoke tongues), and this was because Paul's was a didactic discourse to an erring church. Just the same, those with the genuine gifts of healing - they just heal - and they don't preach about it. Those with the true gift of prophesy cringe when others refer to them as "prophets" because, secretly, inwardly, they know their detestable worth.

Those who are baptized in the Holy Spirit (with or without the evidence of tongues) may give a testimony - but they don't make it a preaching fetish, defend it constantly, substantiate it, deliberate it. Those who work true miracles of God, work miracles by the Spirit without a trumpet or video camera. Those who evangelize masses in the spirit of charity and authority of God make sure the left doesn't know what the right does, and you never hear of their amazing success unless an eye-witness writes about it.

This post may have gotten off the subject, but somehow I feld led to share it. It is linked in an odd way to what is being asked in this thread.

Brother Paul

Well put, Brother Paul...

When I first met the Lord, I used to watch Benny Hinn on occasion. I always had a bit of hesitation about his rantings about divine healing. Of course, I do believe that God heals...and can do so through men. Yet I used to wonder why men supposedly gifted with "the gift of healing" did not visit hospitals. Why don't all of those who boast about "raising the dead" go to where the dead are?

The Lord has done many, many amazing things in my life. In addition, I have seen some incredible things -- things that I don't feel the need to write about. What is the outcome of such descriptions? Is it to increase the faith of others in order to bring others closer to the Lord? Does it cause men to stop "testing everything" (I Thess. 5:21) and accept the claims of others "hook, line and sinker?" Or does it simply set those who boast in such things upon a pedestal of great "spirituality?" It seems to me that the outcome is almost always the latter.

As to the question about tongues: I speak with tongues. Yet my experience is so different from what I usually hear preached in Churches. I shiver when I hear pastors exhort their congregation to "pray aloud in tongues" -- as if it were something that could be controlled. Usually, you hear a bunch of people repeating the same ol' "shundai shundai shundai" phrases over and over again. My experience is very different, almost entirely personal, and deeply impacting. Sometimes, I am simply reading a passage of Scripture, praying for a person, hearing a story about someone who is lost or hurting, worshipping, or just reflecting on the things of God (and even when I was asleep)...when all of a sudden I become overwhelmed with tears and a language that I do not know. I am extremely logical and realize that this is not of myself (or out of a desire to speak in tongues). It is also not something that I can turn on and off like a light switch. I can repeat the words that I have heard myself say before...but it is not a new "bilingual" state where I speak a language whenever I want without ever knowing what I say.

I think that there are many, many people who claim to be "baptized in the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues" who are not. I don't know what would cause someone to think that they are...or to claim that they are. I have asked some people who claimed to be...and then were worried about "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit" based upon the notion that they were lying about it. I asked them why they "faked" it, and they usually have told me that they thought that they "might" have been...but were simply repeating the expressions of others when in the Church (so no one would question their spirituality). I guess this might be the same reason that so many people get "slain in the Spirit" each Sunday WITHOUT having truly been "knocked down" by God.

Anyway, there are far more pressing needs than a discussion of WHO speaks in tongues. I think that it is undeniable that tongues existed in the Scriptures. I also think that it is a stretch for some to claim that it "ceased" at any given time in history (especially since that is a slanted interpretation of Scriptures that appear to be taken out of context, namely I Corinthians 13). If someone truly wants to be baptized in the Holy Spirit, I suggest that they do NOT place the emphasis on tongues (or any of the gifts). Rather, I would place my emphasis on simply wanting to know Christ more...and becoming a more effective witness of His goodness to a lost and dying world.

PaulWest wrote:

Those with the true gift of prophesy cringe when others refer to them as "prophets" because, secretly, inwardly, they know their detestable worth.

Is this my destiny to feel useless and unworthy all my life. There has to be more than this in my Christian walk there must be I don't want to be a whitewashed tomb clean on the outside and stinking filthy on the inside. Will only death set me free from this body of sinfullness can death be my deliverer. Will God sanctifify me fully entirely or will I be a unclean man all my days.

Is it wrong to ask such a question who speaks with tounges what is wrong with it, does it break the guidelines of posting. Is it true that because I ask about talking in tounges that means that when I do it's false? Does it mean that as I have started a debate about tounges that the tounges I use are false.

I talk in tounges this happened before I even went to church. As I lay there in my bed totally fed up with they way my life was going I ask God to change me. A wind came in the room and blew into my stomach, after this I started talking in tounges.

I asked this question on this post because I want to find out the general type of people that are on this website. As I find that those who attack this gift are religious (have a form of godliness but deny the power) and would want to stop any talk of such things. Have you ever heard anyone saying this "tounges are of the devil"

Thats terrible and very grieving indeed.

Maybe I should start a thread where is Jesus in your life and see what is the response.

I don't know what would cause someone to think that they are...

Allow me, brother. This might upset a few readers, though it is not my perogative to upset anyone. I used to be deeply entrenched in the charismatic movement. I was credentialed at one time with AG and preached at their rallies and at high-energy Pentecostal youth revivals.

Most everything in these circles is generated by excitement, energy, soul-power. Music plays a tremendous role. People are walked-through the process for wanting "to receive the Holy Spirit", by first raising their hands (usually after a time of having heads bowed down and eyes closed). A minister who ostensibly has the gift of "transferring the anointing of the Holy Ghost" to others will coach you what to do, what to think about, and how to mouth the syllables. If it's in a formal setting - like the Holy Spirit Baptism workshop held anually at Southwestern Assemblies of God University - you all come up and form a line and the minister goes from person to person laying hands on your head and encouraging you to speak whatever gibberish comes to mind.

Sometimes they'll have a worship singer leading with a keyboard or something. Ideally, though, you want to have a drum beat - because a repetitious drumbeat is a very powerful tool for stirring the soul. The people are told to just "let go" and focus on Jesus, worship Jesus, imagine He is there on stage and He has a free gift for you, that you don't have to earn it - it's His delight to baptize you and He's ready right now!

The mantra music is increasing in volume and when the minsiter reaches you, He puts a hand on your head and one on your shoulder while a catcher/helper usually gets behind you. He starts going off in a mix of tongues and English (basically the soulish equivalent of Spanglish), and you're encouraged to lift your hands and cry out to God for the baptism. If it's taking too long and you haven't started speaking in tongues yet, the minister will move on after encouraging you to "keep seeking" the blessing.

The atmosphere is incredibly hot by now, and it's tense and loud. The worship leader, by this time, is usually speaking in tongues himself and has gone off into "the spirit" and it's a very infectious thing. Many people slip into the groove at this point, raise their hands, and timidly begin to release and try to speak anything that comes to mind. The slightest peep of an unintelligent syllable is avidly welcome, and the person is enthusiatically coached to just repeat it, over and over and over. The dignity guard finally comes down, the euphoric beat of music and corporate soulishness melts the final barrier away, and the syllables finally flow forth, strung together with more confidence. Pretty soon the person is rambling and shouting "tongues" with a sense of surrender and ease. As you make the syllables, you imagine them going up as a heavenly language to God that God is able to decipher them.

According to Pentecostal tradition, if this has happened, the person is offically "baptized in the Holy Spirit" and not until then. It's total nonsense and deception. In some cases, the baptisms that take place at these conventions may be genuine, but I propose that the vast majority of them are clever counterfeits of soul and a conjuction of emotion and an intense pressure of excitement and expectation to manifest the desired result.

After the service, those who "spoke in tongues" are encouraged to practice their new gift daily as a prayer language. I say it often: it is like the "sinner's prayer", only mach II. Brethren, this is why we have so many in the church ostensibly baptized in the Holy Ghost and yet completely and utterly powerless. It was Ravenhill's lament, and this is how many of them happen. Just like in salvation, the confession was wrought by forumlaic means, by soul and not Spirit. Soulwork is merely lots of fancy lights and sounds; fireworks and bangs and flashes and explosions...but after it's over, all that's left is a vanishing curtain of translucent smoke.

But anything worught in the spirit by the Spirit remains and grows, transforms, brings fruit and is backed by God's authority that engenders intense self-deprecation, holiness, humility, long-suffering and charity.

There has to be more than this in my Christian walk there must be I don't want to be a whitewashed tomb clean on the outside and stinking filthy on the inside.

Many of the arguments or debates on these type of threads upset me. It seems that the impersonal setting encourages people to argue. At any rate I believe that we all have a flesh that will not be redeemed and pure until death. However, I believe God can and does purify hearts according to James 4:8-10 and other verses. Ravenhill also believed this and has a number of sermons about acquiring a pure heart. I understand Paul West's concern over certain Charismatic/Pentecostal customs, and I agree that the presence of spiritual gifts will speak for itself. People shouldn't go around spouting about their gift of prophecy etc. I would say this not necessarily because we all have impure hearts, but rather because we all have sinned and fallen short and the gifts and callings of God do not make us more or less holy. A pastor is not necessarily any holier than anyone else just because of their calling. Anyway, my hope is to kind of bridge the debate so to speak. I understand where both sides are coming from, but I believe that inside I can be holy and pure despite fleshly desires which will always be impure until the redemption of this body (1 Corinthians 15).

I speak in tongues. I was raised charismatic, but I fell away. When I was born again I didn't want to rely on my parent's faith so I tested everything. I didn't try to speak in tongues. I told God that if it was real than I really wanted it. One day I was walking and praying to God under my breath. The presence of God was thick and I realized I was speaking in tongues. I stopped out of surprise (I was in public) but God told me that he gave me the gift and it bubbled out of me under my breath along with a holy joy. I agree with the previous post that I don't turn the gift on and off like a faucet but that God stirs it up in me, but I also stir it up on occasion.

Many of the arguments or debates on these type of threads upset me. It seems that the impersonal setting encourages people to argue. At any rate I believe that we all have a flesh that will not be redeemed and pure until death. However, I believe God can and does purify hearts according to James 4:8-10 and other verses. Ravenhill also believed this and has a number of sermons about acquiring a pure heart. I understand Paul West's concern over certain Charismatic/Pentecostal customs, and I agree that the presence of spiritual gifts will speak for itself. People shouldn't go around spouting about their gift of prophecy etc. I would say this not necessarily because we all have impure hearts, but rather because we all have sinned and fallen short and the gifts and callings of God do not make us more or less holy. A pastor is not necessarily any holier than anyone else just because of their calling. Anyway, my hope is to kind of bridge the debate so to speak. I understand where both sides are coming from, but I believe that inside I can be holy and pure despite fleshly desires which will always be impure until the redemption of this body (1 Corinthians 15).

I speak in tongues. I was raised charismatic, but I fell away. When I was born again I didn't want to rely on my parent's faith so I tested everything. I didn't try to speak in tongues. I told God that if it was real than I really wanted it. One day I was walking and praying to God under my breath. The presence of God was thick and I realized I was speaking in tongues. I stopped out of surprise (I was in public) but God told me that he gave me the gift and it bubbled out of me under my breath along with a holy joy. I agree with the previous post that I don't turn the gift on and off like a faucet but that God stirs it up in me, but I also stir it up on occasion.

erm, sorry I dont know how but it seems I posted twice...

1Cor 14:2 - for anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to GOD. V4 - he who speaks in a tongue edifies himself...

If this is true it appears the gift of toungues builds us up and brings closer communion with GOD. I want this gift. I have seen so much phonyness and abuse of tongues that I have been tempted to become a hard cessationist but I won't let that experience cause me to throw the baby out with the bath water. Some of the dearest and most Biblically sound Saints I know have this gift. I don't think it is to be a public thing(without an interpreter) but rather a private prayer language.

I don't believe GOD gives this gift to all believers (Paul asks, "do all speak in tongues?") But I would love to have it so long as it wouldn't puff me up with pride or cause me to look down on brothers and sisters in CHRIST who don't have it.

murrcolr wrote:
Thanks for your answer.

Do I love God with all my heart, do I love people like I love myself. Do I have any bitterness, am I slow to anger like God is slow to anger. Do I have any pride, do I forget about an evil done or do I hold a grudge.

The fruits of the spirit or pretending to have the fruits of the spirit, trying to be Godly in my own strengh or truly being Godly. Having a form of Godliness but deny God's power.

Can God do more for this sinful man than just justify me or do I have to wait until death until I am free from this sinful nature. Can death be my deliverer?

Who then can set me free from this inclination to sin?

These are some of the questions I have in my head. But for the time being I would like to know about anyone on here who talks in tounges or as you prefer prays in tounges.

Colin,

I'm sorry. I did not mean to disillusion you; but I misintrepreted your one sentence question... I was wrong to post like I did. Please forgive me.

I sent you a private message as well.

Can God do more for this sinful man than just justify me or do I have to wait until death until I am free from this sinful nature. Can death be my deliverer?

God can do WAY more for us than we can ask or think!! And we do NOT have to wait until death to be free. Read the Word even more and radically believe it and apply it! And pray in the Spirit! Your testimony is awesome!

He loves you.

I was saved in the early 70's by going to some Catholic Charismatic prayer meetings and hearing the gospel preached. I learned about the Baptism of the Holy Spirit through these Spirit filled believers and I began to seek the Lord for this Baptism. I cannot tell you exactly when I was baptized in the Spirit, because early on in my Christian life, all that I wanted to do was to sit in God's presence, pray, and read His Word. One day I was sitting on my front porch, praying and praising God, and I began to praise God in an unknown tongue.

I became involved in Full Gospel Buisnessmen's meetings and was introduced to faith teachings. After about 10 years of being involved with the Word of Faith movement I became very disilushioned. My eyes were being opened more and more to many of the unscriptural teachings within the movement. We left the Word of Faith Church that we were in, and I began to get more immersed into books by Nee, Murray, Tozer, and later Sparks. The reason why I became involved in these forums is because there are many brothers and sisters here that love God and desire to walk a clean and sanctified life, which is also my desire. I knew that the Lord was calling me deeper, and I began to immerse myself in the truths of the cross, which I had never got in the Word of Faith Church that I had attended.

I can see why the devil causes all of this uproar and confusion about tongues, because this gift is precious, as are all of the Lord's gifts.

Tongues, prophesy, laying on of hands, and the casting out of demons have all been abused and misused in many Charismatic Churches and meetings, and the enemy loves this because it brings discredit to that which the Lord is wanting to do in the Church through the gifts. God only gives good gifts, and the gifts of the Spirit are of great benefit to the Church when used in the proper way.

Jesus Christ should always have the pre-eminence in the Church, and when gifts or manifestations are made to be the main emphasis, then that is when the problems begin, and the enemy will certainly come in with his counterfeit.

All of the gifts operate by the love of God, and the gifts are to build up the Body of Christ. Praying in tongues is the one gift that a believer can exercise and build himself up in his most holy faith.

Praying in the Spirit is used by the Holy Spirit in intercessory prayer, because many times we do not know how to pray as we ought to.

There has been much harm done by some Pentecostal groups teaching that you have to be baptized in the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues in order to be saved. I am still looking for that scripture.

The main thing that the Lord is after in our lives is that His own nature is being formed in us, and if I had the choice of having the gifts or the fruit of the Spirit, I would choose the fruit. But praise God that we don't have to pick and choose, when we can have both the fruit and the gifts.

Mike

re "Many of the arguments or debates on these type of threads upset me."

I have to agree with you on this. I steer away from the forums for the lack of edification in it. I tell lots of people about the good things that are available through SermonIndex but usually add to beware of the forums, discernment would be necessary. It does seem to digress into lesser things at times. But there are the times that truth and encouragement are found so I haven't completely given up.
As for the issue of tongues, its easy to agree that it is a gift given by the Holy Spirit as He chooses for the edification of the believer and the body, if there is an interpretation. My experience also includes that there is much flesh involved as well in the body of believers when it comes to this particular gift. It is good to seek the gift, and especially the greater gifts but remember to always seek the Giver and not to get too caught up in seeking the gift. The gift is not necessary for salvation. God uses both those that have the gift as well as those that do not.
There are the two extremes concerning the gift of tongues. Some would suggest that the gift is the evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirt and therefore necessary to salvation even though not all would go so far as to say necessary for salvation. Then others would suggest that the gifts were only necessary for the beginning of the Church and as such are no longer needed or in evidence. Both views I would disagree with. The truth I believe would be somewhere in the middle as it often is when it comes to most of the things which we tend to debate as theological issues. In my best determination Scripture teaches that the gift exists even for today but that it is not for everyione though we are encouraged to seek after the gifts. But our priorities need to be in line; seek God first and not what He can offer us. Do not be dismayed if your brother or sister should speak in tongues and you do not. Pray and ask for the gift but leave it with the Holy Spirit to give as He wills. I know many who share the gift of tongues, some sought the gift and others did not including a dear little old white-haired lady who does not make much ado about it in the church because most in that particular denomination don't ever expect to speak in tongues. I have also known the other extreme where many spoke in tongues and some interpreted but I found sometimes that the message was inconsistent with the teachings of Scripture, more flesh than Holy Spirit.
For the record, I do not speak in tongues. I have asked for the gift according to the Scriptures. I do believe that the Lord has gifted me in other gifts.
Satan would try to distract us in two ways. He would try to make us think that without the gift of tongues we are useless or with the gift that we are better than others, a spiritual pride. Then he would have us to lose our focus, to take our eyes off of Jesus, to seek the experience rather than the Gift Giver. He would also have us to argue amongst ourselves so as to remove all potential for unity. He seems to do preety well with this one, getting us to argue amongst ourselves.
God will lead all into truth whose heart is set upon Him. That truth may or may not include the gift of tongues.

Since I hand-write my prayers, this may explain why I have trouble reading some of what I have written.

Is this my destiny to feel useless and unworthy all my life

John Newton confessed one thing: that he was great sinner and Christ was a great Savior.

He also said this:

[i]"...our holiness does not consist in great attainments--but in spiritual desires, in hungerings, thirstings, and mournings; in humiliation of heart, poverty of spirit, submission, and meekness; in hearty admiring thoughts of Jesus, and dependence upon Him alone for all we need. Indeed these may be said to be great attainments; but they who have most of them are most sensible that they, in and of themselves, are nothing, have nothing, can do nothing--and see daily cause for abhorring themselves and repenting in dust and ashes!"[/i]

- John Newton

Brethren: Thank our mighty God who provides EVERYTHING for us. For many times we don't know how to pray as we ought and HE has provided the means through the Holy Spirit to pray. When we pray in the Spirit in the wonderful language that HE has provided, we are praying the perfect will of God. Why are we still pondering and discussing these things? Dear one that wonders, rest assured praying in tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance is from God. The church has greatly compromised this and the church has greatly abused this. Nevertheless this is a wonderful gift from our Lord.

PaulWest wrote:

Is this my destiny to feel useless and unworthy all my life

John Newton confessed one thing: that he was great sinner and Christ was a great Savior.

He also said this:

[i]"...our holiness does not consist in great attainments--but in spiritual desires, in hungerings, thirstings, and mournings; in humiliation of heart, poverty of spirit, submission, and meekness; in hearty admiring thoughts of Jesus, and dependence upon Him alone for all we need. Indeed these may be said to be great attainments; but they who have most of them are most sensible that they, in and of themselves, are nothing, have nothing, can do nothing--and see daily cause for abhorring themselves and repenting in dust and ashes!"[/i]

- John Newton

I was reading what you posted got me thinking about Job how he Abhored himself.

Job 42:5-6 I had heard of thee by the hearing of the ear; But now mine eye seeth thee. Wherefore I abhor myself And repent in dust and ashes.

Job see God and abhors himself so I looked up the meaning (Abhor-To regard with horror or loathing)

So we could say Job seen God and was horrified at himself.

But then I thought about Isaiah Chapter 6 v 1-4 where ge desribes what he sees I saw the Lord sitting on the throne high and lifted up.

Isa 6:5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, Jehovah of hosts.

Isaiah crys out in horror as well as his eyes have seen the King, Jehovah of Hosts.

Isa 6:6 Then flew one of the seraphim unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar

Then the a seraphim flys to Isaiah with a live coal taken from off the Altar.

Isa 6:7 and he touched my mouth with it, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin forgiven.

In this verse I see a two things.

1.Iniquity taken away
2.Sin Forgiven

When I looked up taken away it means turned off or beheaded.

My iniquity beheaded.

Rock of Ages, cleft for me,
Let me hide myself in Thee;
Let the water and the blood,
From Thy wounded side which flowed,
Be of Sin the Double Cure
Save from wrath and make me pure.

The old timers new that there was a double cure to Sin.

Isa 6:8 And I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then I said, Here am I; send me.

Before the cleansing was the a woe is me now theres a Here I am send me.

Is this my destiny to feel useless and unworthy all my life

As far as our sin nature, we will always have the inclination to sin, but we(as christians) never have to submit to it, as we are empowered by the Holy Spirit. Praying in tongues (after the baptism of the Spirit) is part of walking in the Spirit, and the enemy tries really hard to keep people from it- even through professing Christians.

And just for the record, No! it is not your destiny to "feel useless and unworthy" all your life. The bible commands us to rejoice evermore, and give thanks in everything, praying always and yes with all prayer in the Spirit(Ephesians 6).

I would warn those who speak against this gift in calling it demonic and so forth. Those who do so are walking a fine line of doing exactly what the pharisees did when they attributed the works of God as being the works of Satan(Mark 3). Be careful how you speak about the Holy Spirit and His gifts.

In love,

John

A great DVD to watch is Intimacy with the Holy Spirit by John Bevere, he gives some great examples about speaking in tongues.
I am currently reading The Power of Faith by Smith Wigglesworth, this is a great book & is all about the Holy Spirit, He did not speak in tongues until he was in his forties & then his whole ministry changed.
I have been a christian for 30 years & spoke in tongues soon after. Like anything else this can become just habitual. I think it is like so many things we can have a form of something, but then we let tradition get in the way.
We need to remember who the Holy Spirit is, He is the Spirit of the Living God & we are the temple of the Holy Spirit, He choses to live in us. It has only been in the last year or so that I have been totally stirred up by the Holy Spirit, if we read in the book of Acts, we see that they didn't do anything without being lead by the Holy Spirit. This is the sort of people that God is looking for in the last hour, people that will be filled & led by the Holy Spirit, with nothing of themselves. I believe in speaking in tongues, at times I do not know what to pray Romans 8:26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. 27And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will.
1 Corinthians 2:9-16
9However, as it is written:
"No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him"[a]— 10but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.[b] 14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
16"For who has known the mind of the Lord
that he may instruct him?"[c] But we have the mind of Christ.

I know for me the only way I will fulfill the things God has for me, will be by being led by His precious Holy Spirit.
John G Lake writes of the Holy Spirit in this way:
THERE IS NO SUBJECT IN ALL THE WORD OF GOD THAT SEEMS TO ME SHOULD BE APPROACHED WITH SO MUCH HOLY REVERENCE, AS THE SUBJECT OF THE BAPTISM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. BELOVED MY HEART BLEEDS EVERY DAY OF MY LIFE WHEN I HEAR THE FLIPPANCY WITH WHICH CHRISTIANS DISCUSS THE BAPTISM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.
WHEN MOSES ENTERED INTO THE PRESENCE OF GOD AT THE BURNING BUSH, GOD SAID, “PUT OFF THY SHOES FROM OFF THEY FEET; FOR THE PLACE WHEREON THOU STANDEST IS HOLY GROUND” (EXODUX 3:5). HOW MUCH MORE SO WHEN THE INDIVIDUAL COMES INTO THE PRESENCE OF GOD, LOOKING FOR THE BAPTISM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT AND REMEMBERS THAT IN ORDER TO OBTAIN THIS GIFT, JESUS CHRIST LIVED IN THE WORLD, BLED ON THE CROSS, ENTERED INTO THE DARKNESS OF DEATH AND HELL AND THE GRAVE, GRAPPLED WITH AND STRANGLED THAT ACCURSED POWER, CAME FORTH AGAIN, AND FINALLY ASCENDED TO HEAVEN IN ORDER TO SECURE IT FOR YOU AND ME. IF THERE IS ANYTHING UNDER HEAVEN THAT OUGHT TO COMMAND OUR REVERENCE, OUR HOLY REVERENCE, OUR REVERENCE BEYOND ANYTHING ELSE IN THE WORLD, IT SURELY IS THE SUBJECT OF THE BAPTISM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.
SUPPOSING THAT JESUS WAS ON THE CROSS, AND WE WERE PRIVELEGED TO LOOK INTO HIS FACE AT THIS HOUR, I WONDER WHAT THE FEELING OF OUR SOUL WOULD BE? SUPPOSING WE WERE TO FOLLOW BEHIND THE WEEPING COMPANY THAT BORE HIS DEAD BODY AND LAID IT IN THE TOMB, WHAT WOULD OUR FEELINGS BE? SUPPOSING WE WERE TO MEET HIM IN THE GARDEN, AS MARY DID, IN THE GLORY OF HIS RESURRECTION OR SUPPOSING THAT GOD IN HIS GOODNESS WOULD LET US LOOK INTO THAT SCENE OF SCENES AT THE THRONE OF GOD, WHEN THE HEAVENS LIFTED UP THEIR GATES, AND THE LORD OF GLORY CAME IN. OH, IF WE COULD, BELOVED, WE WOULD HAVE A BETTER COMPREHENSION OF THE BAPTISM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.
THE HOLY SPIRIT COMES RIGHT OUT OF THE HEART OF THE ETERNAL GOD, BREATHED THROUGH THE SOUL OF JESUS CHRIST.
WHEN IT CAME UPON A MAN ORIGINALLY, AS IT DID UPON THE HUNDRED AND TWENTY AT JERUSALEM, NO ONE WENT AROUND SAYING BROTHER, HAVE YOU GOT YOUR BAPTISM? THEY WERE WALKING WITH THEIR SHOES OFF, WITH UNCOVERED HEADS AND UNCOVERED HEARTS BEFORE THE ETERNAL GOD!
WE NEED TO SURROUND THE BAPTISM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT WITH THAT DUE REVERENCE OF GOD WITH WHICH AN EXPERIENCE SO SACRED, AND THAT COST SUCH AN AWFUL PRICE, SHOULD BE SURROUNDED.
“KNOW YE NOT THAT YOUR BODY IS A TEMPLE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, WHICH IS IN YOU (1 COR 6:19)”
A TEMPLE OF GOD, A HOUSE OF GOD IN WHICH GOD LIVES!

Blessings
Christine

yes I have.
not as a practice but during times of prayer and deep interscession does this occur, but not as the kind of gift where I do on command or when I want to...

Brothertom wrote:

In the end, it is not a sign of anything. Remember Laodicea. They spoke in tongues. Seek to honor Jesus alone

Tom you took alot of time to write that and would like to thanks for your imput you seem to have studied this matter. I would like to point out one point only to you where you said it was not a sign I guess you where writing about speaking of tounges in the quote above.

1Cor 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to the unbelieving: but prophesying is for a sign , not to the unbelieving, but to them that believe.

We are told that tounges are a sign for the unbelievers. Know that brings up a question praying in tounges in church.

God's ways and thoughts are so much above and different then ours. I would not recommend a Christian to seek for tongues. I would only recommend a Christian to seek God for a deeper experience and walk with him.

The bible says to be filled with the Spirit to witness Christ to a lost world. God also desires to do a spiritual work in us for His Glory, forming us to the image of Christ. The bible also says that He gives the gifts of the Spirit severally as He wills.

The baptism in the Holy Spirit is distinguished from the gifts of the Spirit. The book of Acts teaches that the baptism in the Holy Spirit is a work of grace for those who are in Christ. I now believe that there are people who have learned how to repeat some words and think they are saved but are not regenerated by the Spirit to a real salvation experience. I also believe there are people who have learned to say a few unknown words but have not the baptism in the Holy Ghost.

I realize more than ever that we are not to seek anything for ourselves but only for the glory of God. I have heard people say that they just learned to say a few words but nothing really happened in their life. I believe that if the baptism really happens in the way of Scripture then there will be a big change in your Life. I will never ever, ever, ever, forget the experience of the baptism that happened to me on July 21, 2006 between 11pm -12am. I have been through many trials since then but because this experience was so dramatic and so powerful that for two months I was without fear of so many things that I was prior to this experience. I could tell you of many things but there is this one time where I walked across from one corner to the other corner of a man's yard to speak to Him. I saw the man with a hack saw in his hand and he looked a little upset talking to a lady and some children in a car, he had walked away from the car and he was now going back. I prayed and asked the Lord if He would want me to go and witness to Him. I had learned from the Lord that when out walking to always ask and be polite when you see someone in their yard, to ask them if it is alright to speak to them. This was so different and a few days after I had received the baptism. The man had an invisible fence around his yard and inside that fence was a rottweiler dog. I asked the Lord about going to the man and the Spirit just filled me and started leading me toward the man. I never even paid the dog any mind. The dog took off toward me barking angrily. I never looked down, the next thing I heard was the dog whimpering and heading back toward the house. The man watched me and I said to the man, that dog would have bit me if I had of been afraid of Him. The only thing he said was probably. I spoke to the man briefly and asked him could I pray for them. I prayed for them and left.

The reason I say this is because a few weeks latter I tried to go back and visit Him and went to the front door, but no one came to the door. The dog had a chain on him this time and came from around the side of the house barking madly and startled me. I would not have dared walked in that dogs territory. I had fear this time and wondered why their was no fear the other time.

For two months this experience was so strong that I have often wondered about it but I have never regretted it and believe now that God can give you an experience that can cause one to do extraordinary things. I don't know how long I spoke in tongues that night when I received the baptism because I never heard any words to say or anything like that, I had an awesome experience that when I thought about what was happening to me I heard myself speaking rapidly in a language that wasn't English. The spirit of God rushed upon me and I found myself shouting, running, and speaking in tongues after I had started praying on my knee's. I had prayed and sought God for ten days in a row and did not expect anything like what had happened to me. I could tell you a lot more but I will stop because I am nothing. I can't do anything without the Lord. I don't deserve all his goodness to me. I am not doing the things that I was doing at that time because I can't. I only pray that I will be obedient and that God will use this vessel of clay for His Glory. I would love to experience God's Spirit again like I did at that time but I am so thankful that I know God can do anything in our life if we surrender to Him.

This has also made me aware that if we continue to seek Him that He will be with us and will enable us to face what ever we have to face in the future. There is nothing else to fear when God is near.

rbanks wrote:

I would love to experience God's Spirit again like I did at that time but I am so thankful that I know God can do anything in our life if we surrender to Him.

What a wonderful testimony rbanks give thanks to the God of gods! For His mercy endures forever.

I have attached a link to a online book wriiten by the Unknown Christian. I am finding that I am become so aware of my unworthiness. I don't really like being like this but that is how I feel but along with that awareness God in his mercy is showing me there is a way through Jesus to set me free. I believe we must all experience Wo, Low, Go as Lenorad Ravenhill preached.

Woe is me for I am unclean
Lo the Lord will make you clean and burn away all chaff from your life
Go we must tell of our own experiences with the Lord to encourage others to have an encounter with the Living Christ.

My desire is to know God in a deeper way and get to a stage of living in revival all the time, not just walking close to God for a season then being far off because of my sinfullness. I know God has more for us he wants to clean us up so we are vessels fit for his use and in that book you'll find some truths that you don't hear anyone preaching about today.

I hope it helps you to a closer walk with God.
[url=http://www.bibleteacher.org/VictoriousLife.htm]Victorious Life[/url]

Your description of how the Pentecostal Churches today go about their initiation of the baptism of the holy Ghost was most discouraging. If I were a new believer reading this I would want nothing to do with any of the spiritual workings of God, lest I'd be deceived.

In just about every case that I know of, believers abounding in fruit automatically abound in gifts - gifts of helps, governments, tongues, healings. The difference here is that the gifts exhibited by fruit-bearing believers do not strut or need emotional music to kick-start a service. I am 100% opposed to today's charismatic agenda of just "come forward and get baptized in the Holy Spirit if you want to" with the obligatory tongues to seal the deal. I've seen enough of it; heard enough testimonies, and observed the final product of the majority of these ostensible baptisms, and in the end almost all of the recipients have nothing but a testimony of how they spoke in tongues and just felt God's awesome presence all around them.

I always ask them: "How do you know it was God's presense you felt and not a soulish euphoria?" and they can tell me nothing more but circular reasoning. Mind you, if the genuine fruit of the Spirit followed - with an increased appetite for God's Word and prayer and a sobriety and fearless burden to proclaim the gospel - I would not have to ask this question, but as a youth pastor I beheld these baptisms taking place on many occasions...and afterwards only to see the kids go back to their XBoX video games and cliques and gossip and unholy dating. How can this be? What we see brethren is wholesale deception going on right before our eyes, and with ministers (often without the genuine baptism themselves) telling these kids that they're baptized in the Holy Ghost and congratulating them.

The kids that [i]do[/i] get genuinely filled with the Spirit go in the opposite direction, and I will readily admit that a kid can get filled at one of these meetings, but such is the exception and not the rule. In fact, most people I've talked to (and many on this site) have been filled with Spirit while alone, communing with God or reading the Bible or during a period of quiet prayer time...sometimes with tongues, sometimes without. God then sends people your way and the gifts just happen - sometimes the gifts of healing, sometimes helps; sometimes governments, sometimes tongues. It's spontaneous, not at all premeditated or worked-up or planned out.

Brother Paul

I always cause a stir at Church or when I was in Bible College, and recall when I was baptized in the Holy Spirit. For I always say, "I don't recall if I spoke in tongues or not that night." Like others here, I was filled with the Holy Spirit while seaking the Lord in the quietness of my bedroom. I was simply seeking the Lord, desiring to have more of Him in my life, and all of a sudden, my room was filled with His holy presence. I had not sensed God's Spirit like this since the first time I heard the gospel preached. I was just overwhelmed with God's presence, and just poured out my heart to Him. I know while pouring out my heart to Him, I gave some sort of groaning like sensations, and I think I said some things that were unintelligbile. I don't know if I spoke in tongues or not. Honestly, I was more aware of God's presence than what I was or was not doing.

Of course, the "tension" this testimony goes away when I'm pressed to confess that I have since prayed in tongues from to time, and have even given a tongue or two in public assembly that was interpreted.

Personally, I preach and teach that any genuine demonstration of God's power constitutes "evidence" of being baptized in the Holy Spirit. Shortly after being baptized in the Spirit, I sought out water baptism, and began to preach in the streets, teach when amongst brethren, and occassional give a prophetic utterance during church service (often to the disdain of my then pastor who did not like me interupting his perfectly timed/orchestrated services, especially if the message was negative). Since then I have continually felt this Divine "urging" to minister whatever things the Lord may put upon my heart at any given time.

To my own shame though, I must say that my character has not always lived up to my charismata. I feel an utter sense of unworthiness when God manifests one of His most precious gifts through me. For I am not always, as Katz would say, "the thing in itself." But the gifts are what they are-- extensions of God's grace. His gifts are truly gracious, for even if we aren't quite up to snuff, He can still choose to move through us in a mighty way. I'm reminded of Christ's words, "For there is no one who will perform a miracle in My name, and be able soon afterward to speak evil of Me." (Mark 9:39). It can be a truly humbling thing to be used of God in His service.

For the record ... I haven't.

In many of the previous discussions on this have made mention of my more pronounced, poor experience, a very forced, poorly timed (During a special service right after 911), the manipulation and coaching - My sheer grief and anguish, that I refused to go along with it all ... no interpretations, a babbling of nonsensical utterance - that it became the last straw, never to darken the doors there again.

I would be in complete agreement with many here, neither denouncing that which is authentic nor supporting the extremities, that are so much more prevalent.

Really, I didn't even want to say this much, what I did want to express was towards you murrcolr. Dear brother I do not know how to articulate this without the wondering of how it sounds to anyones ears, realizing we only get sometimes the smallest snapshot of each other here but brother ... You have changed.
And it is wonderful.

There is something hard to grasp I think for some of us, I pray you find the bitter-sweetness in feeling\\being worthless. The first be last and the last first - All those things the Lord spoke of, such a seeming paradox. Man am I halting and hesitating here, far more than what I want to say ... I will go out on a limb and suppose you are not much more fond of encouragement for encouragements sake, that thing we sometimes feel compelled to do to each other to somehow 'cheer' them up, than I am. Nor do I want to start preaching ... I hope you find your self even more aware, I am as well - more and more - More regretful, more conscious of lack, more aware of my irritability - lack of patience .. It is a strange sweet humbling matter. I pray the Lord will draw closer to you through this brother and I believe He most certainly will. Thanks for encouraging me by your example.

I do.

Dear brother I do not know how to articulate this without the wondering of how it sounds to anyones ears, realizing we only get sometimes the smallest snapshot of each other here but brother ... You have changed.

I bless God for His grace and wisdom that transcends human thought. The Lord continue to bless you, Murrcolr, and grant you wisdom, peace and a greater knowledge of His amazing grace.

Brother Paul

One of the meanings I found for Hype is:- Something deliberately misleading; a deception.

Unfortunalty all the hype has diluted and downgraded the things of God until they have become a byword a thing to be mocked and to made fun off.

God has no option but to clean house and it will start with his own people and the ones we call Pastors. A lot of Pastors have over stepped the mark and have taken an authority they should never have taken on, they are the ones that have went along with the Hype and sold it to God's people, they are the ones who have chased after false fire and tried to build there own Kingdoms instead of working for Kingdom of Lord Jesus Christ.

This has led to the down grading of the things of God there is no Holiness today. Holiness is not about how loud or long we pray, Holiness is not about the way we dress, how often we read the bible. We can do all those things and still be in a mess going to hell and don't even know it.

Paul said in 1Cor 13:1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am become sounding brass, or a clanging cymbal.

So does he mean here that you can speak in tounges and have not love, I think he does. I ask you as I ask myself do you speak in tounges and have not love.

My honest answer to the question is that I do love to a degree but not fully. Know if you hold that statement of mine up to scripture you'll see that I fail miserably.

Matt 22:37-40 And he said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second like unto it is this, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments the whole law hangeth, and the prophets.

That is where I need to start, because on that two commandments the whole law hangs. I ask myself why don't I love God with all my heart why do I not love people as I love my self.

Why because of the sin in me. A born again, bible believing Christian who is filled with the Holy Spirit and talks in tounges has still sin in him. I am not pure, I am not clean, I am not Holy.

Do not get me wrong God met me powerfully, I am not the same person I was but there is a need in my life to meet God in a deeper way.

If we are ever going to see a True Move of God we as a body of believers must humble ourselves before God and turn from our wicked ways. If we do this God will hear from heaven and will forgive us of our sins.

2Chr 7:1 Now when Solomon had made an end of praying, the fire came down from heaven, and consumed the burnt-offering and the sacrifices; and the glory of Jehovah filled the house.

The Glory of Jehovah filled the house this is what needs to be restored into the church today.

When God Glory fills the church the Fear of the Lord will replace the mocking and slander that has been so evident.

But it must start first with each of us being honest about the condition of our own hearts.

Do you love God with all your heart?

DeepThinker wrote:
I like what you wrote about the variety of ways God does things and He is not always doing the same things like as if we were on some assembly line. He works on us differently, each person is unique and yet not violating His word, because each one of us are different!

If I knew how to quote more than one person at a time I would certainly do it here. I have especially liked Paul West's and Mike Balogs's last replys. In most cases, I don't like long posts, but I found myself not wanting Mike's to end. He has a spirit about him that I can relate to.

Though I have not read every post, I read enough to get an impression that they were a little touchy at first. It seems now, that most of the rough edges have been knocked off.

I especially liked the way DeepThinker worded what was originally stated by Paul West. If there is one thing to learn about God from creation, is His increadible appetite for variety. We seem to have difficulty making the jump to the same with His people.

I am very turned off when a church thinks they have the way. Personally, I think the different churches, in a twisted sortof way, are God's gift to us that we might have the variety. It is ashame that we can't have it in one, but that may be changing.

For too many years, man in the absence of the power of God, has resorted to professionalism. As a result, we have a church full of people who give themselves endlessly to everything but God.

5 years ago, burnt out on it all, and knowing there was more, I began seeking God for myself. My time with Him has become the highlight of my day. Though I do not speak in tongues, and frankly, have no desire to, I am full of God. He is my passion. I feel as if I have cleared a path to Him, and now desire to help others to find Him as I have.

When you find God like this, your nature changes. When you are full of God, it dispells other cravings. God begins to use you in ways you don't even plan for. I have found myself in more one on one conversations about God in the past year, than I think I've had in the previous 30 as a Christian.

What I have discovered is that if we seek anything but God, we are sidetracked. Seek to speak in tonges, seek ministry, seek recognition; it is all a distraction from the best we can have with God. If you are truly seeking God, the way He deserves to be sought, these other things will come in time. In our seeking of only Him, He will give us these things as it pleases Him to do so.

In regard to seeking ministry, recognition, etc., I've been there and done that. So if some may think I'm a little over the top, that's okay. When you finally come to the end of yourself, you will find the same thing. He is the only thing that is worth our pursuit. When we seek other things, we are simply sidetracked from the most important pursuit we could ever be enguaged in.

The result of this pursuit will be God inspired and initiated ministry. It will go forth with the power, love, compassion and grace of God. The ministry is the tip of the iceburg supported by a tremendous base of time with God that isn't seen. It is the opposite of what is so plentiful in today's churches. The ice burg is turned up side down; ministry is the big base supported by a little tip of time with God.

It is fine to speak in tongues if it is something that God initiated and not man. It is fine to not speak in tongues. The one thing that is a must though, is that we are full of God, and the one really not dependent on the other. I am full of God and do not. Someone is full of God and does. Just be full of God; the rest will take care of itself.