Where are the saints on SI that believe in the 7th day Sabbath

I am just curious as to know and meet how many saints on SI believe in the 7th day Sabbath of the Lord and keep it holy. I am looking to meet some more of fellow 7th sabbath keeping Christians in Christ.

PS:I am not SDA, and the purpose of this particular thread is not to discuss or debate about whether the sabbath is binding or was done away with at the cross, the purpose is that I would like to meet fellow believers in the Lord's Sabbath that I can learn from and fellowship with.

Thanks, and Grace & Peace to all who reply

Hi BlazedbyGod...

Isn't TODAY (and EVERY day) a "Sabbath" rest for God's people? Consider Hebrews chapter 4...

6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.

8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

I think that it is a great concept to have a "day of rest" -- especially if you are working. There can only be good from taking a day off to rest, gather our thoughts and to concentrate on the things of God. This is especially true if you work through hard labor. However, there are many people who are willing to force the recognition of a special "Sabbath" day -- yet neglect the tenants of the Sabbath as written in Scripture. It might help to remember that Jesus "worked" on the Sabbath -- and was rebuked by the Pharisees and Sadducees for it. Continuing in Romans...

Romans 14:22-23

22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

bump

Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Every day is the sabbath, just as every day is to be lived as if it is the day our Lord will return - Look up. . .

Kind regards,
white stone

I am just curious what you think you can learn from someone that believes in a 7th day Sabbath that you can't learn from the many Godly believers that visit here? :-(

Looks to me like an attempt to get our eyes off Jesus, and start another exasperating discussion that accomplishes nothing except distraction. We live in the day when we have to hold fast to our common beliefs and focus on the Lord of Life, Jesus our Savior!

Blessings Greg

Smokey wrote:
I am just curious what you think you can learn from someone that believes in a 7th day Sabbath that you can't learn from the many Godly believers that visit here? :-(

Looks to me like an attempt to get our eyes off Jesus, and start another exasperating discussion that accomplishes nothing except distraction. We live in the day when we have to hold fast to our common beliefs and focus on the Lord of Life, Jesus our Savior!

Blessings Greg

I can learn more truths about the 7th sabbath day that many other godly saints that visit this site don't believe in-thus this is why my question is addressed to those that DO believe in the truth of the 7th day sabbath which the Lord of Life, Jesus our Savior, is also the Lord of the Sabbath.

And I'm sorry to disappoint your judgement of me, but this is no attempt to do anything but other than what was stated.

"[b]Looks to me like an attempt to get our eyes off Jesus"[/b],

PS: Did you read my signature?

White_Stone wrote:
Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Every day is the sabbath, just as every day is to be lived as if it is the day our Lord will return - Look up. . .

Kind regards,
white stone

Thank you for replying whitestone, however, Col 2:16 does not refer to the (singular) sabbath instituted at creation, rather it is about the ceremonial sabbaths that did in fact point to Jesus. For example the day of atonement was ALSO a sabbath, it was not "THE 7th day Sabbath" but it was the various special sabbaths"-it was certain sabbaths like these that Paul speaks of in Col 2:16.

And I would have to say respectfully, that everyday is not the sabbath. The Scriptures are clear that God blessed, sanctified, hallowed, and rested the seventh day-and it is that means which the sabbath is-the seventh day of each week.

Example: Lev 23:26.And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying ,
27.Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD.
28.And ye shall do [b]no work[/b] in that same day: for it is a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before the LORD your God.
29.For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people.
30.And whatsoever soul it be that doeth any work in that same day, the same soul will I destroy from among his people.
31.Ye shall do no manner of work: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.
32.It shall be unto you [b]a sabbath[/b] of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath.

This was the day of atonment,but it was also was a sabbath-it was not the 7th day sabbath but it was "a" sabbath.

This was not my purpose for this thread, but since these are the only reponses that I have gotten so far, I do choose to respond to them. We can continue this discourse if you like, whether in this thread or in PM's whichever you prefer. And this extends to anyone who chooses to respond in this thread as well.....

Grace and Peace in the Lord Jesus Christ

Dear BlazedbyGod,

Your response is appreciated. I am open for discussion and instruction, as well. My husband and I have been honoring Sunday as The Lord's Day for at least a year. Whereas I used to do a load of laundry on Sunday's, weather permitting, now I do not. We no longer do yard work on Sunday, either. We have not found any local church we would attend a 2nd time, so our instruction is from the daily Bible readings we have. As I read things on the forums I visit, I discuss them with my husband.

About a year ago we became concerned about which day of the week we should be honoring and after reading many different pieces and discussion with a Christian friend we have come to believe Sunday is the Lord's Day. If you feel differently and wish to expound on your belief, I will be glad to listen.

What I should have said is that we do not respect any special days (such as Christmas). Every day is cause for celebrating the virgin birth, live, death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus and forgiveness of our many sins afforded by confessing His name.

Kindest regards,
white stone

I am of the persuasion that no day is greater than another day; so long as it is called "to day" ([b]Hebrews 4[/b]) as Brother Chris mentioned. This is the day the Lord has made; this is the day of the Lord's salvation.

Perhaps you should teach us what you have learned BlazedbyGod by believing in "the 7th day Sabbath" because this doesn't appear to be a common belief around here on SI.

What distinguishes one day from "a" Sabbath day or from "the 7th Sabbath day"?

Dear Whitestone and others on the forum,

I have recently studied the subject of the Sabbath, and I have found that Jesus is the fulfilment of the Sabbath, because in Him we have rest from works, in that we are not justified by our own righteous deeds (works of law), but by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

Just consider these scriptures...

[b]MATTHEW 11:28-30[/b]
[i]"Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light." [/i]

Jesus calls all who labor, meaning all who are trying to be justified by works of law.

Jesus Calls all who are heavy laden, meaning they are heavy laden with sins.

...But in Him they will find rest for their souls

[b]ROMANS 4:4-5[/b]
[i]"Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness"[/i]

To the one that works, meaning the one who by good works of law earns and deserves his salvation, his salvation is not by grace, but it is obtained because God is indebted to that person...

So, as I had to conclude, the Sabbath commandment is pointing to Christ and to find rest in Him from works of law.

We can never be justified by works of law, but only by faith in Christ who died for the ungodly. We can never earn or deserve our salvation through our own righteous deeds, but we can only look to Him who drank the cup of the wrath of God for our sins...

Love,

Stampe

boG wrote:
I am of the persuasion that no day is greater than another day; so long as it is called "to day" ([b]Hebrews 4[/b]) as Brother Chris mentioned. This is the day the Lord has made; this is the day of the Lord's salvation.

Perhaps you should teach us what you have learned BlazedbyGod by believing in "the 7th day Sabbath" because this doesn't appear to be a common belief around here on SI.

What distinguishes one day from "a" Sabbath day or from "the 7th Sabbath day"?

Greetings bog, Grace & Peace be unto thy soul:

I never said that any day was GREATER than any day, neither did I ever say scripture teaches that- However, I will say that in scripture, God does call the 7th day sabbath:

Isa 58:13If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on [b]my holy day[/b]; and call the sabbath a delight, [b]the holy of the LORD[/b], honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words

God himself called the sabbath "his holy day"-That makes it is a little different from all the other 6 days of the week-even as many other scriptures teach:

Exodus 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, AND HALLOWED it

In 6 days God made heaven and earth, and on the 7th day his work was complete and he rejoiced and rested in that.

Also, I might add, that many in the book of acts the DAY of the Lord's salvation was on the sabbath day. See below

Acts 13:14 14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down. 15 And after the reading of the law and the prophets the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them, saying, Ye men and brethren, if ye have any word of exhortation for the people, say on. 16 Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience. 17 The God of this people of Israel chose our fathers, and exalted the people when they dwelt as strangers in the land of Egypt, and with an high arm brought he them out of it. 18 And about the time of forty years suffered he their manners in the wilderness. 19 And when he had destroyed seven nations in the land of Chanaan, he divided their land to them by lot. 20 And after that he gave unto them judges about the space of four hundred and fifty years, until Samuel the prophet. 21 And afterward they desired a king: and God gave unto them Saul the son of Cis, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, by the space of forty years. 22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. 23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: 24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel. 25 And as John fulfilled his course, he said, Whom think ye that I am? I am not he. But, behold, there cometh one after me, whose shoes of his feet I am not worthy to loose. 26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent. 27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him. 28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain. 29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre. 30 But God raised him from the dead: 31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people. 32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, 33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. 34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. 35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: 37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption. 38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: 39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. 40 Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets; 41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.

42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, [b]the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath[/b]. 43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God. 44 [b]And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God[/b]. 45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming. 46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. 47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: [b]and as many as were ORDAINED to eternal life believed[/b]

For these certain Gentiles, the "day" of salvation was the 7th day sabbath. And it was ORDAINED of God that it be that way as verse 48 says.

Even the Great prophecy of Isaiah 61:1-4 was performed/fulfilled on the sabbath day:

Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; 3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

And this is when it was fulfilled:
Luke 4:14 And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about. 15 And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all. 16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, [b]he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read[/b]. 17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias(Isaiah). And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, 18[b] The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.[/b] 20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. 21 And he began to say unto them, .[color=FF0000]THIS DAY is this scripture fulfilled in your ears[/color]

Well..."that day" was the sabbath day. Isaiah 61:1-4 was fulfillied by Jesus on the sabbath day.

Bog you asked: "what distinguishes one day from the 7th day sabbath"?

Here is my answer:Exodus 16:26 Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, WHICH IS the sabbath, in it there shall be none.

Exodus 20:10But the seventh day IS THE sabbath of the LORD thy God: ....

The clear answer, is because the scriptures declare the 7th day to be the sabbath day established at the end of creation, not any other day. Other days of the week could be special ceremonial sabbaths, but the sabbath that God rested on at the end of creation, and that is apart of the 10 Commandments is the 7th day; and has always been.

Exodus 20:10But the seventh day IS THE sabbath of the LORD thy God: ....

The clear answer, is because the scriptures declare the 7th day to be the sabbath day established at the end of creation, not any other day. Other days of the week could be special ceremonial sabbaths, but the sabbath that God rested on at the end of creation, and that is apart of the 10 Commandments is the 7th day; and has always been.

[b]Mark 2
23.[/b] And it happened that He was passing through the grainfields on the Sabbath, and His disciples began to make their way along while picking the heads of grain.
[b]24.[/b] The Pharisees were saying to Him, "Look, why are they doing what is not lawful on the Sabbath?"
[b]25.[/b] And He said to them, "Have you never read what David did when he was in need and he and his companions became hungry;
[b]26.[/b] how he entered the house of God in the time of Abiathar the high priest, and ate the consecrated bread, which is not lawful for anyone to eat except the priests, and he also gave it to those who were with him?"
[b]27.[/b] Jesus said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.
[b]28.[/b] "So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."

My only encouragement to you brother would be to honor the Lord of the Sabbath rather than the 7th day. Whoever honors the Lord of the Sabbath honors the day.

I think all Christians who have studied the bible any realize that under the old covenant that Saturday is the seven day and was also called the weekly sabbath. We also realize that the bible also mentions the first day of the week as the Lord's day. I think from these scriptures that it is clear that many of the Jews were having trouble with people worshiping on the first day instead of the 7th day.

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Ro 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Ro 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

Ga 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Ga 4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.

Ga 4:11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

The scriptures make it clear that under the new covenant Christ has fulfilled the Law and that He is our sabbath rest. God does not want us to burden people with what day they worship on because in Christ everyday we worship Him. The types and shadows have been fulfilled in Him and the body is of Christ and not any certain holy days.

God does not want us to get caught up into bondage about days but to enjoy our freedom in Christ everyday. If one would notice that in the new testament, that Jesus said, that if you Love me keep my commandments. He mentions 9 of the 10 commandments along with many others but He never mentions the 4th because He is the fulfillment of the sabbath rest explain in heb 4.

We are under Grace with freedom from any type of unnecessary bondage, and let everyone be persuaded in his own mind, without judging others concerning the freedom of the new covenant concerning days.

We Know that many godly Christians have observed the 1st day of the week as the Lord's day. We will not be any holier before God by keeping any particular day, whether it be Saturday or Sunday. Let's just say that I go to great lengths of study concerning the sabbath day (7th day) and see all that God said about it in the OT and really get convince about it so much that I begin now to start worshiping on this day as the sabbath and even go so far as to try to convince others with much persuasion. What am I really doing? Would I be pleasing God? I don't think so. I believe that I would be going away from grace in Christ and getting people to focus more on a day than on Christ. I really believe my zeal for a day could become a stumbling block. I am not going to worship a day. I will worship the Lord. We are not under the Law but under grace.

Hi Blazed...

I read your post, and it just seems like I understand what you're trying to say. However, your logic seems to tie an Old Covenant mandate for not working on the Sabbath to a continued requirement under the New Testament.

Yes, God rested on the "Sabbath" (or "7th") day. However, this didn't mean he became lazy. It just means that He stopped creating things (at least, until He created Eve). So what did God do on the 7th day?

Genesis chapter 2

1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Can we think of anything else in the Old Testament that was "sanctified?" Sure! God sanctified [i]people[/i] (Exodus 19:14), the [i]tabernacle[/i] (Exodus 29:43), [i]Aaron[/i] (Leviticus 8:30), etc... Yet today, if the Tabernacle or Temple was still around, would it be as "holy and set apart" as it was BEFORE the veil was torn in two? Of course not! They held a purpose BEFORE the work of Christ that fulfilled the Law.

Interestingly, we know nothing of the Sabbath day from the time of Creation...until the Law of Moses. Yes, God "sanctified" the day -- but did He create a set of rules and regulations about it? No. He simply "sanctified" it. So did people from Adam to Moses reverence that day? Maybe. However, there is simply nothing in Scripture written about it.

In fact, there was no LAW for any particular ordinance for the Sabbath day UNTIL the Israelites were wandering around in the desert and they were presented the Law. At that time, they were given a set of rules and regulations about the "7th" day. Yes, the commandment is #5 in the 10 Commandments. However, the actual commandment says to [i]remember the sabbath day[/i] (with further instructions to cease from working out of that rememberance). Why? God was setting an example about taking time off to remember Him (and to refrain from working). Yet there is nothing in this command that makes us think that the Sabbath is the day we go to meet with the "Church" (or synagogue, Tabernacle, Temple, etc...) and worship. In fact, it is simply given as a time for us to [i]remember[/i] that God created the universe -- and ceased from creation on the 7th day.

We are no longer bound by the letter of the Law. The later requirements for the Sabbath under the Old Covenant simply do not apply to believers who are freed from the burden of trying to follow the letter of the Law. Yet even if we were to feel free only from the stipulations added later to the 10 Commandments, we are only asked to not work on one day out of seven. Amazingly, most people do this anyway (in fact, most people have TWO days off). Yet the command is not simply to stop working for a day. Sinners do that! The command is to "REMEMBER THE 7th DAY" (Exodus 20:8) -- the day that God had completed creation!

Further, he says to "KEEP IT HOLY." How do we keep a day "holy?" By refraining from work? I have known coworkers who do that neary EVERY day (just a joke). It is on a day that we don't work -- that we concentrate upon the works of God. In a way, it reminds me of fasting. Should a person fast when they will be so busy that they have no time to gather their thoughts and spend quiet, intimate time with the Lord? Or should they choose a day when they can avoid the things of this world...get away into a "closet" of prayer, study and contemplation...and seek the things of God? Thus, a day without work is...just...a day without work. But a day without work spent remembering the works of God? That is a day of resting in His arms!

As others have pointed out, TODAY is a rest for the people of God. We are believers...fulfilled Jews...who have seen and understood the sacrifice of the Lamb of God for a sinful human race. We can [u]remember[/u] the FINISHED WORK of Christ EVERY day of the week (month, year, etc...). In fact, if you are like me, you remember it all the time!

I do think that there is a good principle about work here too. It is good to take a day off...to rest from our work...and to think about and consider things. What is the extent of "work" that we can perform? Well, the Lord BLESSED the seventh day...on the seventh day! In addition, Jesus said it was better to DO WELL on the Sabbath (Matthew 12:12). Further, our Lord explained that the "sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath" (Mark 2:27). I feel that the Lord set an example by providing a day to cease from working...not as a regulation...but as a blessing. During that day, we would "remember" the works of God. However, we (as believers in the finished work of Christ) do this EVERY day! Yet our "rememberance" is not confined to the "7th" day in which God had finished creating the world. We can now "remember" the completion of his work for salvation. After all, what did Christ say upon the cross?

"It is finished."

In the end, I do not see any sort of regulation for a 7th day. In fact, we don't even KNOW what day creation began on (with our current calendars...because they have changed a couple of times [at least]). Thus, those who do honor a particular day might not even honor the RIGHT particular day (if that makes sense). But even if we are to obey the 10 Commandments, we are just told to "remember the [original] sabbath." We could even stop working one day a week. But are there any other rules regarding this that are "eternal?" No. This negates the notion that we are to go to Church on a particular day (the early church met DAILY). This negates the notion that we must fast upon a particular day (the apostles picked wheat and ate it on the Sabbath).

If we want to honor the later rules and regulations of the Law, we are in danger of being judged by that very Law! None of us could fulfill it! That is the very reason Christ came to die for us! Rather, why don't we simply [i]remember[/i] the work completed by God? If you really want to refrain from [i]work[/i] (and have some underlying notion of just what [i]work[/i] might consist of), then by all means -- do it (...or, rather, REFRAIN from doing it). But understand that many of us have looked into this, contemplated it, and decided that the principle of the Sabbath is not fulfilled by any set of rules -- but by remember the work of God. I don't think that God created the "Sabbath" simply to create a set of difficult to follow rules about work (or worship). Rather, I think that He created it for man...for us to have a day off...and to remember His work. What better way to rest than to remember what He has finished?

:-)

rbanks wrote:
I think all Christians who have studied the bible any realize that under the old covenant that Saturday is the seven day and was also called the weekly sabbath. We also realize that the bible also mentions [b]the first day of the week as the Lord's day[/b]. I think from these scriptures that it is clear that many of the Jews were having trouble with people worshiping on the first day instead of the 7th day.
.

Well Truthfullly Rbanks, that is also another problem. Looking at the part of your statement that I highlightedL " We also realize that the bible also mentions [b]the first day of the week as the Lord's day[/b]

In fact there is no such scripture anywhere throughout the whole word of God that says this, that is just an association that people themselves have made, however, the bible never says this. I will ask you to provide me with the very scripture that says "the first day of the week IS the Lord's day". Also I would add Jews did not have a problem with people performing worship on the first day of the week, because some of their ceremoninal sabbaths were on the first day of the week in the old testament.

I though this would happen and it did. I decided to leave it in because this is what many have gather from Revelations and also from going to the tomb on the first day of the week and his resurrection. Also the saint's collection was on the first day of the week. It doesn't really matter because everyday is the Lord's Day to me although I do gather with other believers on Sunday morning & evening, also Wednesday evening weekly.

I hope you will also look at the scriptures and the other comments that was stated in my post. I do hope you the best in the Lord.

Also I hope this can help you concerning software you are looking for. www.instaverse.com

I will also post this on your other thread.

I appreciate you my brother!

BlazedbyGod wrote:

rbanks wrote:
I think all Christians who have studied the bible any realize that under the old covenant that Saturday is the seven day and was also called the weekly sabbath. We also realize that the bible also mentions [b]the first day of the week as the Lord's day[/b]. I think from these scriptures that it is clear that many of the Jews were having trouble with people worshiping on the first day instead of the 7th day.
.

Well Truthfullly Rbanks, that is also another problem. Looking at the part of your statement that I highlightedL " We also realize that the bible also mentions [b]the first day of the week as the Lord's day[/b]

In fact there is no such scripture anywhere throughout the whole word of God that says this, that is just an association that people themselves have made, however, the bible never says this. I will ask you to provide me with the very scripture that says "the first day of the week IS the Lord's day". Also I would add Jews did not have a problem with people performing worship on the first day of the week, because some of their ceremoninal sabbaths were on the first day of the week in the old testament.

Chris,

THanks for you post, Greetings, and Grace & Peace be unto thee.

Exodus 16: 23 And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the [b]holy sabbath unto the LORD[/b]: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning. 24 And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein. 25 And Moses said, Eat that to day; [b]for to day is a sabbath unto the LORD[/b]: to day ye shall not find it in the field. 26 Six days ye shall gather it; but on the [/b]seventh day, which is the sabbath[/b], in it there shall be none. 27 And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none. 28 And the LORD said unto Moses, [b]How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?[/b] 29 See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day. 30 So the people rested on the seventh day

This is Exodus the 16 chapter. The 10 Commandments aren't given until Exodus 20, and the law of Moses (the letter) was not written and complete until sometime in Deuteronmy. However in Exodus 16 before either the 10 Commandments or the law of Moses was written, God commanded them through Moses to keep the sabbath day-thus, the sabbath day came BEFORE the law of Moses (the letter) and was enforced before then.

Moses and the Children of Israel were observing the sabbath BEFORE they even had either or the two written laws.

Many people will also say that our rest is in Christ and thus there is no need to observe the 7th day sabbath day, many will say the sabbath was a shadow of Jesus, and say that once Christ died we now have no need for the sabbath. However, scripturally, this isn't true either, and scrpture makes this clear:

Luke 23:50 And, behold, there was a man named Joseph, a counsellor; and he was a good man, and a just: 51 (The same had not consented to the counsel and deed of them;) he was of Arimathaea, a city of the Jews: who also himself waited for the kingdom of God. 52 This man went unto Pilate, [b]and begged the body of Jesus. 53 And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid[/b]. 54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on. 55 And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid. 56 [b]And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment[/b]

This all took place AFTER the death of our Lord & Saviour Jesus Christ, yet, Mary, and the other women which had spices and oinmnet to annoint his body, would not do it, until the sabbath passed: they returned home and rested on the sabbath day ACCORDING TO THE COMMANDMENT (not according to the letter of the law Moses)

This commandment would be the 4th Commandment-"Exodus 20:8 REMEMBER the sabbath day to keep it holy"

Now these were the disciples of Christ, they beheld him in the flesh, touched him, heard him teach and preach about his death, & resurrection, yet even immediately after his death they are still keeping the sabbath day according to the commandment of God. Most people say " the sabbath was nailed to the cross" yet, Luke 23:56 is AFTER the cross, death, and burial of Christ-and we see his disciples still keeping the 7th day sabbath, not because they just simply wanted to, but according to the commandment of God.

Why is this?

People always say that Christ words " I will give you rest" has replaced the sabbath day. Yet, what about the apostle Paul. Paul is a man who no doubteldy knows Christ and has the Spirit of Christ inside of him, yet he says:

2 Cor 2:13 [b]I had no rest in my spirit[/b], because I found not Titus my brother: but taking my leave of them, I went from thence into Macedonia

Yet, Paul:
Acts 13:14But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue [b]on the sabbath day, and sat down[/b].

Acts 16:13 And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither.

Yes, upon Christ death, he did say " it is finished"-but let me ask you: Did not Christ resurrect AFTER saying "it is finished"-did not Christ send the gift of the Holy Ghost/Spirit AFTER saying "it is finished"-or how about the great commission, wasn't even that given AFTER the words " it is finished"?

Was our salvation "finished" without Christ resurrection having taken place-I think not, yet he resurrected AFTER saying "it is finished" correct?

Isaiah 66: 22 [b]For as the new heavens and the new earth[/b], which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 [b]And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall ALL FLESH come TO WORSHIP before me, saith the LORD[/b]. 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Why is the LORD God speaking of ALL flesh coming to WORSHIP him from one sabbath to ANOTHER in the new earth?

Old_Joe wrote:

BlazedbyGod wrote:
In fact there is no such scripture anywhere throughout the whole word of God that says this, that is just an association that people themselves have made, however, the bible never says this. I will ask you to provide me with the very scripture that says "the first day of the week IS the Lord's day". Also I would add Jews did not have a problem with people performing worship on the first day of the week, because some of their ceremoninal sabbaths were on the first day of the week in the old testament.

In fact there is scripture that indicates the Lord's day is the first day of the week, not the seventh.

Start with Acts 20:7, 1 Cor 16:2 and Rev 1:10.

Greetings Old Joe, thanks for your post and input. I will answer you this way.

Isaiah 58:If thou turn away thy foot from the [b]sabbath[/b], from doing thy pleasure [b]on MY HOLY DAY; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him[/b], not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

Matt 12:28 For the Son of man is Lord even of the [b]sabbath DAY[/b]

Now, you tell me, what day did God the Father say was his "holy day" according to Isaiah 58:13?

Though, I am not saying the "Lord's day" is the first or the seventh-the Lord's day, is Nisan 14, the day the Lamb was slain for our sins-...that is indeed the Lord's day, that John speaks of in Rev 1:9-10

The verses you quoted do NOT say the Lord's day is the first day of the week-the verses you quoted only speak of the first day of the week, but they do NOT in any way say or inply that the Lord's day IS the first day of the week. I hope you understand what I am trying to say

Blessings sir

Hi Blazed...

I didn't say that the Law was the first time rules and regulations were associated with [i]remembering[/i] the Sabbath day (although the verse you alluded to in Exodus 16 calls itself Law). Rather, I said that there was NOTHING written in Scripture about the Sabbath from the seventh day of Creation (in Genesis chapter 2:1-3) until the years that the Israelites spent wandering around the wilderness. God certainly sanctified the day...and made it holy. However, it wasn't associated with any sort of rules and regulations until much later (apparently, in an attempt to cause the people to remember the sanctity of the day).

Your interpretation of Isaiah 66 is, well, just an interpretation. You link verse 23 with 22, although verse 22 seems to be an anecdote, while verse 23 appears to speak to the future present (not the eternal future). Do you really think that there will be work in eternity (thus requiring rules for a sabbath rest)? Or perhaps this verse pertains to those who are still alive on Earth (and not those of us who are "changed" into our eternal bodies)?

Regardless, I stand by what I said in my previous post. The Scriptures are not clear (before the Law) about how we are to behave on that day. Yes, it is a day sanctified (set apart) for rememberance. However, the modern connotation associated with the "Sabbath" (day to go to church, etc...) is entirely unbiblical. It is simply a day of rememberance. God made it for man (rather than vice versa) so that we can remember the finished work of Christ.

:-)

Isaiah 58:If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on MY HOLY DAY

Hm, how about this:
[b]Isaiah 13[/b]
[b]6.[/b] Wail, for the [b]day of the LORD[/b] is near!
It will come as destruction from the Almighty.
. . .
[b]9.[/b] Behold, the [b]day of the LORD[/b] is coming,
Cruel, with fury and burning anger,
To make the land a desolation;
And He will exterminate its sinners from it.

[b]Ezekiel 30
3.[/b] "For the day is near,
Even the [b]day of the LORD[/b] is near;
It will be a day of clouds,
A time of doom for the nations.

[b]Joel 2
11.[/b] The LORD utters His voice before His army;
Surely His camp is very great,
For strong is he who carries out His word.
The [b]day of the LORD[/b] is indeed great and very awesome,
And who can endure it?

[b]Amos 5
18.[/b] Alas, you who are longing for the [b]day of the LORD[/b],
For what purpose will the [b]day of the LORD[/b] be to you?
It will be darkness and not light;
[b]19.[/b] As when a man flees from a lion
And a bear meets him,
Or goes home, leans his hand against the wall
And a snake bites him.
[b]20.[/b] Will not the [b]day of the LORD[/b] be darkness instead of light,
Even gloom with no brightness in it?

[b]Obadiah 1[/b]
[b]15.[/b] "For the [b]day of the LORD[/b] draws near on all the nations.
As you have done, it will be done to you.
Your dealings will return on your own head.

[b]Zephaniah 1[/b]
[b]7. [/b] Be silent before the Lord GOD !
For the [b]day of the LORD[/b] is near,
For the LORD has prepared a sacrifice,
He has consecrated His guests.

[b]Zephaniah 2[/b]
[b]2.[/b] Before the decree takes effect--
The day passes like the chaff--
Before the burning anger of the LORD comes upon you,
Before the [b]day of the LORD's[/b] anger comes upon you.
[b]3.[/b] Seek the LORD,
All you humble of the earth
Who have carried out His ordinances;
Seek righteousness, seek humility.
Perhaps you will be hidden
In the [b]day of the LORD's[/b] anger.

[b]1 Corinthians 5[/b]
[b]5.[/b] I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the [b]day of the Lord Jesus[/b].

[b]1 Thessalonians 5[/b]
[b]2. [/b]For you yourselves know full well that the [b]day of the Lord [/b]will come just like a thief in the night.

[b]2 Thessalonians 2[/b]
[b]2. [/b]that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the [b]day of the Lord[/b] has come.

[b]2 Peter 3[/b]
[b]10. [/b] But the [b]day of the Lord[/b] will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.

Is it not possible the inauguration of the New Covenant through the shed blood of our Lord Jesus was a revelation of the Lord's Holy Day? and the resurrection of the dead at the second appearing of our Lord Jesus, when all the world shall be judged before His great throne, is the fulfillment of the Lord's Holy Day?

[b]Matthew 11
28.[/b] Come unto me (Jesus), all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
[b]29.[/b] Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

[b]Matthew 25[/b]
[b]31.[/b] "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
[b]32.[/b] "All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;
[b]33.[/b] and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
[b]34.[/b] "Then the King will say to those on His right (the sheep), `Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
. . .
[b]46.[/b] "These (goats) will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

I don't know about all of you but the only true Sabbath I long for is the Sabbath in my Father's house.

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Hi Blazed...

I didn't say that the Law was the first time rules and regulations were associated with [i]remembering[/i] the Sabbath day (although the verse you alluded to in Exodus 16 calls itself Law). Rather, I said that there was NOTHING written in Scripture about the Sabbath from the seventh day of Creation (in Genesis chapter 2:1-3) until the years that the Israelites spent wandering around the wilderness. God certainly sanctified the day...and made it holy. However, it wasn't associated with any sort of rules and regulations until much later (apparently, in an attempt to cause the people to remember the sanctity of the day).

[b]Your interpretation of Isaiah 66 is, well, just an interpretation. You link verse 23 with 22, although verse 22 seems to be an anecdote, while verse 23 appears to speak to the future present (not the eternal future)[/b].

:-)

Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 [b]AND[/b] it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.2424 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

That can be no plainer, verse 23 is connected to verse 22 " AND"

The plain fact is, there is NO scripture that says Jesus has replaced the sabbath day with himself, Christ came to do the will of his Father, and the will of his Father, and the word of his Father was " Exodus 20:8 Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy.

Did Christ say that he would give rest for our souls-YES, did Christ say that this would replace the sabbath day- NO. Did Jesus say if you love me keep my commandments (plural)-YES, is one of those commandments about keeping the sabbath day holy-YES

boG wrote:

Isaiah 58:If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on MY HOLY DAY

Hm, how about this:
[b]Isaiah 13[/b]
[b]6.[/b] Wail, for the [b]day of the LORD[/b] is near!
It will come as destruction from the Almighty.
. . .
[b]9.[/b] Behold, the [b]day of the LORD[/b] is coming,
Cruel, with fury and burning anger,
To make the land a desolation;
And He will exterminate its sinners from it.

[b]Ezekiel 30
3.[/b] "For the day is near,
Even the [b]day of the LORD[/b] is near;
It will be a day of clouds,
A time of doom for the nations.

[b]Joel 2
11.[/b] The LORD utters His voice before His army;
Surely His camp is very great,
For strong is he who carries out His word.
The [b]day of the LORD[/b] is indeed great and very awesome,
And who can endure it?

[b]Amos 5
18.[/b] Alas, you who are longing for the [b]day of the LORD[/b],
For what purpose will the [b]day of the LORD[/b] be to you?
It will be darkness and not light;
[b]19.[/b] As when a man flees from a lion
And a bear meets him,
Or goes home, leans his hand against the wall
And a snake bites him.
[b]20.[/b] Will not the [b]day of the LORD[/b] be darkness instead of light,
Even gloom with no brightness in it?

[b]Obadiah 1[/b]
[b]15.[/b] "For the [b]day of the LORD[/b] draws near on all the nations.
As you have done, it will be done to you.
Your dealings will return on your own head.

[b]Zephaniah 1[/b]
[b]7. [/b] Be silent before the Lord GOD !
For the [b]day of the LORD[/b] is near,
For the LORD has prepared a sacrifice,
He has consecrated His guests.

[b]Zephaniah 2[/b]
[b]2.[/b] Before the decree takes effect--
The day passes like the chaff--
Before the burning anger of the LORD comes upon you,
Before the [b]day of the LORD's[/b] anger comes upon you.
[b]3.[/b] Seek the LORD,
All you humble of the earth
Who have carried out His ordinances;
Seek righteousness, seek humility.
Perhaps you will be hidden
In the [b]day of the LORD's[/b] anger.

[b]1 Corinthians 5[/b]
[b]5.[/b] I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the [b]day of the Lord Jesus[/b].

[b]1 Thessalonians 5[/b]
[b]2. [/b]For you yourselves know full well that the [b]day of the Lord [/b]will come just like a thief in the night.

[b]2 Thessalonians 2[/b]
[b]2. [/b]that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the [b]day of the Lord[/b] has come.

[b]2 Peter 3[/b]
[b]10. [/b] But the [b]day of the Lord[/b] will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.

Is it not possible the inauguration of the New Covenant through the shed blood of our Lord Jesus was a revelation of the Lord's Holy Day? and the resurrection of the dead at the second appearing of our Lord Jesus, when all the world shall be judged before His great throne, is the fulfillment of the Lord's Holy Day?

[b]Matthew 11
28.[/b] Come unto me (Jesus), all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
[b]29.[/b] Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

[b]Matthew 25[/b]
[b]31.[/b] "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
[b]32.[/b] "All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;
[b]33.[/b] and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
[b]34.[/b] "Then the King will say to those on His right (the sheep), `Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
. . .
[b]46.[/b] "These (goats) will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

I don't know about all of you but the only true Sabbath I long for is the Sabbath in my Father's house.

bog,

All the scriptures you quoted I am familiar with, however I still want you to notice something.

All the verses you quoted only say " ...day of the Lord", however Isa 58:23 says:

Isa 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on [b]my holy day[[/b]; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

The sabbath day (as far as I know and can see from scripture) is the only day written in scripture where God actually calls it " my HOLY day"

All the verses you quoted are absent of the term "holy" in them-but Isa 58:13 is not.

The reason I am saying this, is because it is with these verses that you responded to me, but in none of those verse is the day of the Lord refered to as "holy"-I am saying as far as the scripture verbally says. Hope you understand

Hi Blazed...

Then perhaps you could clearly state just WHAT you think believers are required to do (or not do) on the Sabbath day? Besides, which "sabbath" day are you referring to? The calendar has changed several times, and thus, there is much debate about the proper "sabbath" day today.

Still, I am hesitant to believe that we are bound to a particular set of stipulations, rules or regulations regarding the "sabbath." It is a day for rememberance of God's finished work. But what else do you think that entails?

:-)

Old_Joe wrote:

BlazedbyGod wrote:
Greetings Old Joe, thanks for your post and input. I will answer you this way.

Isaiah 58:If thou turn away thy foot from the [b]sabbath[/b], from doing thy pleasure [b]on MY HOLY DAY; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him[/b], not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

Matt 12:28 For the Son of man is Lord even of the [b]sabbath DAY[/b]

Now, you tell me, what day did God the Father say was his "holy day" according to Isaiah 58:13?

Though, I am not saying the "Lord's day" is the first or the seventh-the Lord's day, is Nisan 14, the day the Lamb was slain for our sins-...that is indeed the Lord's day, that John speaks of in Rev 1:9-10

The verses you quoted do NOT say the Lord's day is the first day of the week-the verses you quoted only speak of the first day of the week, but they do NOT in any way say or inply that the Lord's day IS the first day of the week. I hope you understand what I am trying to say

Blessings sir

Blazed

Since Jesus Christ is LORD (1 Cor 15:47, 12:3 Phil 2:11), I am not sure why you believe God the Father is speaking in Isa 58:13, nevertheless I will attempt to address your question of why the LORD says that His holy day was the Sabbath.

The answer is simply because that was His day, yes even while Christ was on earth the Sabbath command was in effect. It was not until Matt 28:6 that the new covenant began, and with that new beginning, being Lord of the Sabbath, Christ the Lord took to Himself a new day, making division between the old obligation the new freedom.

Just like for properly understanding the doctrines of justification and sanctification we need to look past the gospels to the epistles, likewise for full enlightenment of this doctrine we must look at post resurrection evidences for proof of a first day worship vs a seventh day sabbath. There you will find the information extremely lacking in support of a seventh day sabbath of any kind and instead find that the first day has become recognized as a meeting time, and a time of collecting for support of the gospel, and the Lord’s Day. These are both things that are not so much associated with an absence of work as they are a day with fullness of worship.

Distinguishing characteristic of the Sabbath- absence of work.
Distinguishing characteristic of the Lord’s Day- fullness of worship.

The former was characterized by what man was to refrain from, the latter is characterized by what regenerate man has been made free to do. The former falls very short of the latter in its spiritual nature, and its display of the power of God.

The first command was in the negative as were the rest of the commands, whereas the institution of the Lord’s Day is a positive command, as are other New Covenant commands. In Christ, not only are we not to do evil, but we are to do good, which is a positive command! Since the Lord made way for a more noble occupation for regenerate man than a mere absence of work, under inspiration both the Sabbath day and its name were changed to something fitting for the accomplishments of the LORD. That is why it is now referred to as “The Lord’s Day” and remembered on the day of completion of the redemption of man.

In light of the above, I do hope you will answer my other question.

Since it falls so much short of the Lord’s Day, in both its intent and practice, “What leads you to believe that those who believe in the seventh day sabbath are truly saints?”

Old Joe

Real quick:

Where does the Bible say that sabbath was " old obligation"?

Where does the Bible say that Christ " took upon himself a new day"? Last time I checked Christ did NOTHING of himself, he only did the will of the Father.

And as I stated earlier, even immediately right after his death, his disciples were still honoring and keeping holy the 7th day sabbath.

Please provide verses of scripture where the word of God actually says these things?

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Hi Blazed...

Then perhaps you could clearly state just WHAT you think believers are required to do (or not do) on the Sabbath day? Besides, which "sabbath" day are you referring to? The calendar has changed several times, and thus, there is much debate about the proper "sabbath" day today.

Still, I am hesitant to believe that we are bound to a particular set of stipulations, rules or regulations regarding the "sabbath." It is a day for rememberance of God's finished work. But what else do you think that entails?

:-)

Chris, where does the Bible label the sabbath as being BOUND, as far as I can recall, God himself called the sabbath "his DELIGHT"

Isaiah 58:13If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; [b]and call the sabbath a delight[/b], the holy of the LORD, [b]honourable[/b]; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

God tells us to call the sabbath a "delight" "the holy of the LORD", and HONORABLE", yet people on this site are always calling the sabbath "bondage" and burdensome-but the Lord, in scripture, says otherwise.

I will say as well, that Isaiah 58:13 answers your other question, regarding what we are to do and not do....

To the Spirit filled heart, God's law is not bondage or burdensome at all-as scripture says when we have received the Spirit God's law has been written on the fleshly tablets of our hearts. This would be all 10 of the Commandments (amongst other's as well) of which to "remember the sabbath day and keep it holy unto the Lord" is one of those commandments.

All the scriptures you quoted I am familiar with, however I still want you to notice something.
All the verses you quoted only say " ...day of the Lord", however Isa 58:23 says:
Isa 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day[; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
The sabbath day (as far as I know and can see from scripture) is the only day written in scripture where God actually calls it " my HOLY day"
All the verses you quoted are absent of the term "holy" in them-but Isa 58:13 is not.
The reason I am saying this, is because it is with these verses that you responded to me, but in none of those verse is the day of the Lord refered to as "holy"-I am saying as far as the scripture verbally says. Hope you understand.

What does it mean: holy? Set apart, yes?
[b]Acts 17
30.[/b] "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,
[b]31.[/b] because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."
[b]32.[/b] Now when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some began to sneer, but others said, "We shall hear you again concerning this."

If this is not a description of a "holy day" I do not know what is. And in regards to your comment concerning [b]Isaiah 58[/b], a chapter which I love (the whole sequence from chapter 58 thru 61 is amazing), perhaps you are not as familiar with it as you might be aware.

[b]Isaiah 58
6.[/b] "Is this not the fast which I choose,
To loosen the bonds of wickedness,
To undo the bands of the yoke,
And to let the oppressed go free
And break every yoke?
[b]7.[/b] "Is it not to divide your bread with the hungry
And bring the homeless poor into the house;
When you see the naked, to cover him;
And not to hide yourself from your own flesh?
[b]8.[/b] "Then your light will break out like the dawn,
And your recovery will speedily spring forth;
And your righteousness will go before you;
The glory of the LORD will be your rear guard.
[b]9. [/b] "Then you will call, and the LORD will answer;
You will cry, and He will say, `Here I am.'
If you remove the yoke from your midst,
The pointing of the finger and speaking wickedness,
[b]10.[/b] And if you give yourself to the hungry
And satisfy the desire of the afflicted,
Then your light will rise in darkness
And your gloom will become like midday.

Hm, doesn't this sound familiar . . .
[b]Matthew 25
34. [/b] "Then the King will say to those on His right, `Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
[b]35.[/b] `For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;
[b]36. [/b] naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.'
[b]37. [/b] "Then the righteous will answer Him, `Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink?
[b]38. [/b] `And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?
[b]39. [/b] `When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
[b]40.[/b] "The King will answer and say to them, `Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'

And again . . .
[b]Isaiah 58
13.[/b] "If because of the sabbath, you turn your foot
From doing your own pleasure on My holy day,
And call the sabbath a delight, the holy day of the LORD honorable,
And honor it, desisting from your own ways,
From seeking your own pleasure
And speaking your own word,
[b]14.[/b] Then you will take delight in the LORD,
And I will make you ride on the heights of the earth;
And I will feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father,
For the mouth of the LORD has spoken."

Something I always enjoy to point out here is the phrase, "THEN you will take delight in the Lord." So often I hear people quoting, "delight yourself in the Lord, and He shall give you the desires of your heart!" Well, if you should ever seek to delight yourself in the Lord then [b]Isaiah 58[/b] is the way. And what are the commandments here concerning the Lord's holy day? Desist from your own pleasure, your own ways, your own word; why? For the carnal man is emnity against God, cannot submit to God, neither is he pleasing to God. The only way to fulfill this commandment is to be born-again by the Spirit of God through faith in Christ Jesus -- then "I will feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father." And who is Jacob? is it not written,
[b]Hebrews 11
9.[/b] By faith [Abraham] sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise . . .
To put it very simply, the heritage of Isaac and Jacob is to be children of the promise according to the New Covenant. I assure you brother, the scriptures I posted are about the Sabbath.

Hi Blazed...

Okay...I understand that you believe this. But you still haven't answered the question: What do you believe that the Lord requires from us regarding the Sabbath day?

Old_Joe wrote:

BlazedbyGod wrote:

Real quick:

Where does the Bible say that sabbath was " old obligation"?

Ex 35:2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the Lord: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.

People are no longer to be put to death today for doing work on the Sabbath. Under the Old Covenant there was an obligation not to work on that day on threat of physical death. You weren't even allowed to start a fire on the Sabbath (Exo 35:3) which would make it very difficult to survive as a Christian in Northern climates today, or even drive to a hospital with that internal combustion engine if need be. For the sake of preventing you and others from killing people for these offenses, I want to be clear that this obligation of absence of work subject to immediate death no longer exists.

BlazedbyGod wrote:

Where does the Bible say that Christ " took upon himself a new day"? Last time I checked Christ did NOTHING of himself, he only did the will of the Father.

I gather you suppose it is not the Father's will that He did this.

As Lord of the Sabbath (Matt 12:1-14) and the declaration of the Son of God in Isa 58:13, it is His day. If Christ's appearance on the Lord's Day (John 20:19) and then again on he eighth day (John 20:26) as well as the disciples meeting together on the first day (Acts 20:7) and offering on the first day (1 Cor 16:2) with John's declaration of the Lord's Day (rev 1:10), all don't convince you that the day has not changed, there will not be much I can do to convince you otherwise.

BlazedbyGod wrote:

And as I stated earlier, even immediately right after his death, his disciples were still honoring and keeping holy the 7th day sabbath.

Yes, and upon His death the redemption was not completed, the new covenant did not begin until after His resurrection in Matt 28:6, hence the reason for worship on that day.

BlazedbyGod wrote:

Please provide verses of scripture where the word of God actually says these things?

Should all be included above.

Here is a good snip from "The Fundamentals" for you on the subject.

"If you ask why the Jewish Saturday once observed as Lord's Day was changed to the First Day, the answer is that Jesus proclaimed Himself Lord also of the Sabbath day, therefore greater than the statute law of Moses. Jesus is the incarnate Legislator of the world. As Lord of the Sabbath, Jesus had the right to interpret and ennoble the day, so that it might be the greatest institution for the culture of the three-fold man. The Scribes and Pharisees had misconceived the genius of the Sabbath law. They missed its underlying principle, encumbered it with intricate and inflexible rules, assuming themselves to be the judges of every act. "The letter killeth, the spirit giveth life." Jesus rescued the Sabbath from its burial under a mass of ceremonialism, and revealed its true spirit and meaning. "Jesus did for the Sabbath what a skipper does for his ship, when she comes laboring into port, unable to make headway, because her hulk is covered with barnacles. He puts her into dry-dock, and scrapes off the barnacles. He does not scuttle the ship. So our Lord does not repeal nor annul the Sabbath law when He strips it of the intolerable burdens which the ceremonialists had heaped upon it." In order to emphasize His new idea of the old Sabbath the disciples chose a new day as Lord's Day.

The disciples also desired to commemorate the greatest of all events Since the world's creation, namely, the resurrection of our Lord, for it was on the first day of the week that Jesus made His first five appearances. It was also on the first day of the week that the Holy Spirit was given, therefore Pentecost was commemorated on that day (Acts 2). It was on this day also that the great tidings of salvation were first preached to the multitudes (Acts 2). The first day became the day in which all the early Christians assembled for worship, and for communion (Acts 20:7 and 1 Cor 11:33). It was the day also in which the prophecy of Revelation was granted to John on Patmos (Rev 1:10). All the church fathers kept the Lord's Day instead of the Jewish Sabbath, and thus the Christian Sabbath became the weekly holy day of the Christian dispensation, and is the only Sabbath day mentioned as a sacred rest day after the resurrection."

I have repeatedly answered your questions, I request again that you answer my question.

Since it falls so much short of the Lord’s Day, in both its intent and practice, “What leads you to believe that those who believe in the seventh day sabbath are truly saints?”

Old Joe

Old Joe, The new covenant did not start in Matt 28:6, Jesus did not resurrect in Matt 28:6, by the time of Matt 28:6 Christ was ALREADY risen before this verse.

And besides, the sabbath was still observed and honored even after Matt 28:6 . Here is the example:

Acts 1:7.And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8.But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
9.And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld , [b]he was taken up ; and a cloud received him out of their sightb[/b].
10.And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up , behold , two men stood by them in white apparel;
11.Which also said , Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen [b]him go into heaven[/b] 12Then returned THEY unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem [b]a sabbath day's journey[/b]

"They"-the disciples of Christ had just seen him ascend into the heavens, then they returened to to Jerusalem which was a "sabbath day's journey"-a few days later (around 48-49 days later) was the day of Pentecost, and how did the disciples know when the time of Pentecost would be:

Lev 23: 1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts. 3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.

4 These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons. 5 [b]In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD'S passover[/b]. 6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread. 7 In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein. 8 But ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD seven days: in the seventh day is an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein. 9 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 10 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest: 11 And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: [b]on the morrow AFTER THE SABBATH the priest shall wave it. 12 And ye shall offer that day when ye wave the sheaf an he lamb without blemish of the first year for a burnt offering unto the LORD[/b]. 13 And the meat offering thereof shall be two tenth deals of fine flour mingled with oil, an offering made by fire unto the LORD for a sweet savour: and the drink offering thereof shall be of wine, the fourth part of an hin. 14 And ye shall eat neither bread, nor parched corn, nor green ears, until the selfsame day that ye have brought an offering unto your God: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.

15 And ye shall count unto you from the morrow [b]after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete: 16 Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD[/b]. 17 Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave loaves of two tenth deals: they shall be of fine flour; they shall be baken with leaven; they are the firstfruits unto the LORD. 18 And ye shall offer with the bread seven lambs without blemish of the first year, and one young bullock, and two rams: they shall be for a burnt offering unto the LORD, with their meat offering, and their drink offerings, even an offering made by fire, of sweet savour unto the LORD. 19 Then ye shall sacrifice one kid of the goats for a sin offering, and two lambs of the first year for a sacrifice of peace offerings. 20 And the priest shall wave them with the bread of the firstfruits for a wave offering before the LORD, with the two lambs: they shall be holy to the LORD for the priest. 21 And ye shall proclaim on the selfsame day, that it may be an holy convocation unto you: ye shall do no servile work therein: [b]it shall be a statute for ever in all your dwellings throughout your generations[/b]. 22 And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not make clean riddance of the corners of thy field when thou reapest, neither shalt thou gather any gleaning of thy harvest: thou shalt leave them unto the poor, and to the stranger: I am the LORD your God.

Pentecost is 50 days (seven sabbaths they had to count which is 49 days) after Nisan 14 (the day that Christ died) The day of Pentecost was 49 days later after the death of Jesus Christ, but as Lev 23:15 says, they were to count SEVEN SABBATHS, begining from the first day after the sabbath. This would have been the "first day of the week" when the counting started

Thus, after Christ ascended, the disciples returned to Jerusalem from mount Olivet which is a sabbath days journey.......and this, was even after Matt 28:6, after the resurrection and ascension of Christ.

Plus, not to mention:

Luke 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

Acts 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures

This is Paul taking on the same custom/manner of his Lord Jesus Christ, doing what Christ did himself on the sabbath days....and yet, even this is AFTER the cross, death, burial, resurrection, and ascension.

Everyone interested in this issue of the Sabbath should read this great article by J Mark Martin:

[url=http://www.exadventist.com/Home/Sabbath/tabid/53/Default.aspx]The Sabbath and Sunday[/url]

BlazedbyGod wrote:
I am just [b]curious as to know and meet[/b] how many saints on SI believe in the 7th day Sabbath of the Lord and keep it holy. I am [b]looking to meet[/b] some more of fellow 7th sabbath keeping Christians in Christ.

PS:I am not SDA, and the purpose of this particular thread is not to discuss or debate about whether the sabbath is binding or was done away with at the cross, the purpose is that I would [b]like to meet[/b] fellow believers in the Lord's Sabbath that I can [b]learn from and fellowship with[/b].

Thanks, and Grace & Peace to all who reply

Firstly, I am curious as to why everyone who posted in this thread ignored the initial post, and felt the need to push their views on the poster, when the appropriate thing would be to ignore, and allow other Sabbath Keepers to respond. For the record, BlazedByGod I will PM you an email address of a Messianic friend of mine who is as passionate about Sabbath keeping, as those of us are of Revival (which is an Old Testament concept, also).

On a side note, there is a whole lot more about being an SDA than mere Sabbath observance. For one thing, they view Sunday worship as receiving the mark of the beast, something that BlazedbyGod doesn't seem to agree with, judging by his polite discourse in response to the barrage of proof texts presented to him to "prove him wrong". A true SDA would consider these to be apostate.

Also there is the bizarre "Investigative Judgment" doctrine, where Jesus entered into the "Heavenly sanctuary" to begin judging professing believers. All to explain away the Adventist Revival of 1840-44. For those who don't know, speculation was given that Jesus was to return on October 22, 1844, making October 23 known as the Great Disappointment. When Jesus didn't return, some of his followers claimed that Oct 22 was the day that the Investigative Judgement began. Some believe that the Jehovah's Witness' movement was birthed out of this event also.

One noted example of a man of God who kept the Shabbat (as he called it), is Art Katz, if anyone is interested.

CJaKfOrEsT wrote:

Firstly, I am curious as to why everyone who posted in this thread ignored the initial post, and felt the need to push their views on the poster, when the appropriate thing would be to ignore, and allow other Sabbath Keepers to respond. For the record, BlazedByGod I will PM you an email address of a Messianic friend of mine who is as passionate about Sabbath keeping, as those of us are of Revival (which is an Old Testament concept, also).

On a side note, there is a whole lot more about being an SDA than mere Sabbath observance. For one thing, they view Sunday worship as receiving the mark of the beast, something that BlazedbyGod doesn't seem to agree with, judging by his polite discourse in response to the barrage of proof texts presented to him to "prove him wrong". A true SDA would consider these to be apostate.

Also there is the bizarre "Investigative Judgment" doctrine, where Jesus entered into the "Heavenly sanctuary" to begin judging professing believers. All to explain away the Adventist Revival of 1840-44. For those who don't know, speculation was given that Jesus was to return on October 22, 1844, making October 23 known as the Great Disappointment. When Jesus didn't return, some of his followers claimed that Oct 22 was the day that the Investigative Judgement began. Some believe that the Jehovah's Witness' movement was birthed out of this event also.

Adding just a few thoughts to what Krispy has already stated so well!

Many of us on SI are concerned for genuine revival and when someone starts a public thread for all to see like this one then we in christian love will respond, especially to one whom we consider a brother like blaze.

I would also like to say that even though you started your post the way you did, I would also like to thank you for the truth concerning the errors of the SDA. We really do appreciate that part and I will not reprimand you for it either.

I really do appreciate all the wonderful truth that Old-Joe has so elegantly brought out in this thread. I really do appreciate you brother and how you responded to blazed. I do hope he will consider the information you have stated and also answer your question.

Brother Blazed, The evidence is all there concerning Christ bringing in the new covenant and how He is Lord of the Sabbath. The reference in Isaiah referencing the Sabbath is talking about the millennium when Christ is reigning over all. The verses you brought out about Pentecost only proves why the disciples began meeting together on the first day of the week. The Holy Spirit was not poured out on the weekly Sabbath but on the first day of the week.

The reason the disciples still went to the temple on the weekly Sabbath was to witness Christ. The Jews still attending on the weekly Sabbath and all the other things of the Law they were practicing was not going to save them because only Christ could save them. If only I could envision Paul right now in that Temple telling the people about all the types and shadows that pointed to Christ and the new covenant...He is here... Jesus is the Christ...he is the answer to everything.

Everything we need is in Christ and He is the fulfillment of the Law. In the 15th chapter of Acts the disciples met because certain Jews were telling people that the gentiles were suppose to keep the Law of Moses. They got together and only gave four commandments to the gentiles and said it also seem good to the Holy Ghost and their was still no reference the the 7th day Sabbath as a requirement from God in the new covenant.

Hi Jake...

I am still waiting for the response from Blaze about the requirements for the Sabbath. I understand his opinion about the matter (although I disagree). However, I am wondering just what our brother thinks the Church is required to do on the "Sabbath."

Brother Blazed has indicated a belief that we are still required to adhere to a special Sabbath day. However, how are we to do this?

Are we simply supposed to NOT work?

Are we supposed to assemble ourselves together?

Are we supposed to DO anything?

From how I see it, most of us fulfill the Sabbath already. Not many of us actually work on Saturday (if that is, indeed, the "Sabbath" as some would have us believe). But are there any other "rules" regarding conduct on those days? Genesis chapter 2 makes no requirements. Exodus 20 simply says to remember what happened on the original 7th day and to refrain from work.

It seems that many people (like the 7th Day Adventists and some Messianic believers) feel that this is the day we are supposed to meet together with the Church. However, the early believers met DAILY. Besides, wouldn't a rule to refrain from working apply to a preacher or teacher (unless, then, that is not paid work)? If we were to believe in a strict Sabbath rule, wouldn't we be forced to refrain from partaking in ANYTHING that involves work? Do we drive? Do we cook dinner? Do we walk further than normal? Do we study? Do we fix the plumbing?

Jesus seems to have indicated that the meaning behind the Sabbath was lost in the rule. He said that anyone would rescue an animal from a pit on that day. In addition, wouldn't we take our child to the hospital on that day (if they were in need of medical attention)? Jesus clarifies this when he said that it was lawful to do GOOD on the Sabbath -- because he is the Lord of the Sabbath (Mark 3; Matthew 12). Since we are children of God, isn't EVERYTHING that we do supposed to be for good?

So then, what do you suppose are the requirements for fulfilling the Sabbath?

Still waiting...

People keep reference the Old Covenant, the New covenant-but what people do not understand pertaining to this topic, is that the sabbath was instituted BEFORE the 10 Commandments, and BEFORE the old covenant was even made a covenant. Thus when I talk about "keeping the sabbath day" it has nothing to do with the old covenant.

Let me ask a quick question. Is telling people they must not take the name of the Lord God in vain old covenant?

Is telling people thou shalt not commit adultery old covenant?

Is telling people that God said " I am the Lord, ye shall have no other Gods before me" old covenant?

You would answer "no" to all of those questions-yet, the sabbath does, comes from the SAME SET OF COMMANDMENTS (not the law of Moses, Old Covenant, or letter of the law), but when I start talking about keeping the sabbath, all of a sudden everyone yells " old covenant"? Did you forget:

James 2: 8If [b]YE fulfil the royal law[/b] according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: 9But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, [b]and are convinced of the law as transgressors[/b]. 10For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11[b]For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law[/b]. 12So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty

The royal law-" love thy neighebor as thy self"-yet where is this law found-in the Old Covenant-the Law of Moses:

Levitcus 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge , nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but [b]thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself[/b]: I am the LORD.

And this is even the same law that Jesus quotes from in Matt:

Matt 2237.Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38.This is the first and great commandment. 39.And the second is like unto it , [b]Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself[/b]. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

So if I tell everyone on SI to love God with all their heart, mind, strength, soul, and to love their neighbor as their self NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON WILL SAY TO ME "OLD COVENANT"-even though that is where this law came from? Jesus is quoting FROM THE LAW OF MOSES -the letter as some many people love to call it.

Going back to James-Now he that said do not commit adultery, also said do not kill; now if you don't commit adultery, yet you kill, THOU art become a transgressor of the LAW; but what I am saying in this thread is: he that said do not commit adultery, and thou shalt not kill, also said "remember the sabbath day to keep IT holy".

Verse 12 are two commandments from the 10 Commandments, and it is very clear, that this is the Law he is referring to. And I needs say, there are NO types and shadows in 10 Commandments, there were types and shadows in the law of Moses though. Jesus came and fulfilled the types and shadows that pointed to him in the law of Moses-but that has nothing to do with the 10 Commandments and the 4th Commandment which says" Remember the sabbath day to keep IT holy"

Even still, Jesus still said " I AM NOT COME TO DESTROY THE LAW.." and he said " NOT ONE JOT OR TITLE SHALL IN NO WISE PASS FROM THE LAW TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS, and ALL THINGS HAVE BEEN FULFILLED.

Matt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till HEAVEN and EARTH PASS, one jot or one tittle shall in NO WISE pass from the law, till "ALL" be fulfilled

Jesus may have fulfilled all the types and shadows of the Law that pointed to him-but Christ has not fulfilled "ALL" (as in all) things yet-remember, Christ has to fulfill all that is in the Law..............AND PROPHETS; and there still are things in the prophets (Isa, Jeremiah, Obediah, Zech, Ezek, etc..) that Christ has not fulfilled yet. One thing that has not happened yet is his 2nd coming, amongst other things that the prophets wrote concerning him.

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, [b]that "ALL things MUST be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, AND IN THE PROPHETS, AND IN THE PSALMS, concerning me[/b]

May I ask the simple question, yes or no will suffice: Has either heaven or earth passed away yet?

Rbanks, let me address something you said: [b]"The verses you brought out about Pentecost only proves why the disciples began meeting together on the first day of the week. The Holy Spirit was not poured out on the weekly Sabbath but on the first day of the week[/b].

The Bible is very clear, that the early Church:
Acts 2:46 And they, [b]continuing daily with one accord in the temple[/b], and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,

They did not start meeting on the first day of the week, they were meeting daily-ever since the day of Pentecost (and probably before that as well)

The reason I brought out the verses about Pentecost, was to show that they knew when it was time for Pentecost BY COUNTING SEVEN SABBATHS days-then the following first day of the week AFTER the last seventh sabbath would be Pentecost-just like Lev 23 also showed. I was showing how even after Jesus ascension on high, how they counted 7 sabbaths, then after that sabbath was the day of Pentecost when God gave them the Holy Ghost. I never stated the Holy Ghost was poured out on the sabbath-you supposed that that was what I was saying, but in fact it wasn't, and I never said it anyway. Neither did I ever say "the sabbath is the day we are to "GO TO CHURCH"-I never said anything of the sort. I only said "Remember the sabbath to keep it holy" and that the sabbath is the 7th day, not the 1st.

You also said that the reseaon the where in the temple on the sabbath was because they could witness Christ-and that is only partially true, because they preached and witnessed Christ daily, in the temple and in every house:

Acts 5:2 And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ

rbanks you also said: "Everything we need is in Christ and He is the fulfillment of the Law. In the 15th chapter of Acts the disciples met because certain Jews were [b]telling people that the gentiles were suppose to keep the Law of Moses[/b]. They got together and only gave four commandments to the gentiles and said it also seem good to the Holy Ghost and their was still no reference the the 7th day Sabbath as a requirement from God in the new covenant

There was also no reference to these Gentiles to love their neighbor as their self, but does that mean because it is not said there, that they were excused from doing so- I THINK NOT. Another thing I might say, is yes the Pharisee were talking about the Gentiles keeping the law of Moses, but again, as I have said before: This had nothing to do with the 10 Commandments. Because in the 10 Commandments the Gentiles that joined themselves to the Lord or that was associated with the children of Israel WAS TO KEEP THE SABBATH:

Exodus 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [b]in it thou shalt not do any work[/b], thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, [b]NOR THY STRANGER(gentile) that is within thy gates[/b]: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Isaiah 56:1 Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed. 2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; [b]that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil. 3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree. 4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs THAT KEEP MY SABBATHS, and choose the things that please me, AND TAKE HOLD OF MY COVENANT[/b]; 5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off. 6 [b]Also the SONS OF THE STRANGER, THAT JOIN THEMSELVES TO THE LORD, TO SERVE HIM, AND TO LOVE THE NAME OF THE LORD, to be his servants, EVERY ONE THAT KEEPETH THE SABBATH from polluting it, AND TAKETH HOLD of MY COVENANT[/b]; 7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people. 8 The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.

Gentiles that were asscoiated and within the gates of the Children of Israel, and them that had "JOINED THEMSELVES TO THE LORD" were to keep the sabbath-thus, by the time of Acts 15, the apostles had no need to speak about the sabbath to these Gentiles, because the Gentiles ALREADY knew about keeping the sabbath once they were joined unto the Lord. The main issue of Acts 15, was about being physically circumcized for salvation and keeping the law of Moses-but again, this had nothing to do with the 10 Commandments, nor Isaiah 56 I might add.

This is why in Acts 13: which, lets remember that chapter 13 comes before 15. In the Acts 13, the Gentiles said:

Acts 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, [b]the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath[/b].......44 [b]And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God[/b]........ 47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. 48 [b]And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.[/b]

Did it ever occur to anyone, the the Gentiles in Acts 15, may have been the same Gentiles from Acts 13-thus in Acts 15 THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN STILL NO NEED TO TELL THESE GENTILES ABOUT THE SABBATH BECAUSE AS WE COULD SEE-they ALREADY WERE COMING TOGETHER TO HEAR THE WORD OF THE GOSPEL ON THE SABBATHS.

I believe that there are 7 days... Sorry just read the topic.

Chris, I will respond to, just give me some time to. Every is posting everything to me, so I am trying to make sure I respond to everyone as I can. I have not forgot about your question.

PS: I am a new dad, so I am responding to people while also taking care of my newborn son and working. :-) But I do promise to answer your question.

Hi Blazed...

So, then, could you make a list of what REQUIREMENTS there are (as you see them) for fulfilling this commandment?

From what I have read of your posts, you relay the notion that we are not to work on the Sabbath day...and to remember it. Okay. But what else? Anything?

*EDIT*
You posted while I was writing. Thanks!

EDIT

PS: I am a new dad, so I am responding to people while also taking care of my newborn son and working.

p.s. I received your PM, and will respond this evening.

Bro Paul

congrats on the baby boy! The Lord IS good!

Old_Joe wrote:

BlazedbyGod wrote:
Is telling people thou shalt not commit adultery old covenant?

Yes it is.

For the new covenant that command has been substantially upgraded to include even thinking or looking in an adulterous manner, and ultimately to EVERY last thought (2 Cor 10:5). Stopping short at just not physically committing adultery does not even come close to meeting the intent of the command, nor does it display the power of the gospel.

It is the same with the Lord's Day.

Old Joe

Old Joe, I'm sorry, but thou shalt not commit adultery is not old covenant-nor new covenant for that matter-it's "ALL" covenants-because you can't have covenant with God and be committing adultery.

However, to answer you, what makes you think that the "thou shalt not commit adultery" of Exodus didn't include " even thinking or looking in the adulterous manner-remember David, when he first glanced at Bathsheba, was that not adultery then in his looks, even before he committed the physical act?

In other words, the "look" comes before the physical act-so Matt 5:28 is not, as you say, an upgrade-Jesus was letting them know, that even BEFORE, or even if you haven't committed the physcial act YET, that even just looking you have, as Jesus says "..ALREADY(past tense) committed it in YOUR HEART through/with your eyes. In which Jesus made plain that all sin stems from the heart first anyway:

Mark 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, [b]adulteries[/b], fornications, murders,

Also, according to you, yesterday you said " the new covenant began in Matt 28:6....yet Matt 5:27-28 is many chapters before that, so even the statement that you made proves not to be so-in other words, according to your own words it was even still the "old covenant" when Jesus said Matt 5:27-28, because according to you: "the new covenant began in Matt 28:6.

Neverthelss, I guess Paul was putting people back under the old covenant then, when he said:

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; [b]Adultery[/b], fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Rom 2:22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege

Since you say "thou shalt not commit adultery" is old covenant-in Gal 5:19 and Rom 2:22 was Paul putting people BACK under the old covenant?-we both know the answer is no, he wasn't.

Real quick: to answer your question about " why do I think saints who keep the sabbath are truly saints"?

Actually, I never said that just because someone keeps the sabbath, that make them a true saint-that is one of the main problems with SDA. They reject the Holy Ghost, but they think that just because they keep the sabbath that makes them the remant church. or a Church period for that matter.

All I stated was that I wanted to meet other believes on SI that believe in the sabbath as I do-so that I may learn from them and some of the things they know-but I don't think I gave off the impression that I believe that just because someone believes in the sabbath that makes them a true saint.

Another question for you:

Is " I am the LORD you God, thou shalt have no other God's beside me" old covenant?

PaulWest wrote:

PS: I am a new dad, so I am responding to people while also taking care of my newborn son and working.

Congratulations, brother! This is fantastic! My son is due in late March. Every good gift cometh from above, from the Father of Lights.

p.s. I received your PM, and will respond this evening.

Bro Paul

Thank you brother Paul, and congratulations to you as well kind sir. May God Bless thy seed.

KrispyKrittr wrote:

Is " I am the LORD you God, thou shalt have no other God's beside me" old covenant?

Hold on... if we follow this out to it's logical conclusion pretty soon we wont be just debating the Sabbath... we'll also be calling lobster an "abomination", and not trimming the edges of our beards, and stoning our children for mouthing back at us.

This is a "slippery slope" because this eventually leads to trying to keep the Law. If you're going to keep the Law then you must keep ALL of the Law in order to please God.

Here is the crux of the issue... is there anything we can do to make ourselves worthy of His love?

No.

Our righteousness is in Christ, and Christ alone.

Krispy

Krispy, that may be how this conversation turned out with others that you have had it with, but that is not my mind frame.

As a matter of fact, I had lobster last night-lol.. (you must keep in mind I am not talking about the Law of Moses, that is where lobster being an abomination, stoning children etc is-but there is none of such in the 10 Commandments brother.

Also, am I saying this to TRY and make myself worthy of his love-NO, I know that it is by HIS own free will that he loves me, and loved me first without any thing of myself.

But, let me ask you Krispy:

Is " I am the LORD your God, thou shalt have no other Gods before me" old covenant?

Also, I think for some strange reason, I need to remind some what the 10 Commandments are:

Exodus 20: 1 And God spake all these words, saying, 2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 [b]And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments[/b]. 7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. 8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. 13 Thou shalt not kill. 14 Thou shalt not commit adultery. 15 Thou shalt not steal. 16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. 17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

Jesus said: John 14:15 15 If ye love me, [b]keep my commandments[/b].

Krispy, you said: Our righteousness is in Christ and Christ alone.

While our righteousness is in Christ, yet, what did Christ himself say:

John 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: [b]for thus it becometh TO [u]US[/u]FULFILL ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS[/b]. Then he suffered him.

Christ is not the only one who had to fulfill ALL righteousness, he said "US"

And scripture declares:

1 John 3:7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, [b]EVEN AS HE (Christ) is righteous[/b]. ....10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother

1 John 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him

Christ was not lawless....remember to those who practice lawlessness he will say "depart from me, I never knew you, who committeth iniquity.."

[u]US[/u]

To your original question about who on SI keeps the sabbath.

I have one for you: which day of the week do you call the sabbath? Saturday or Sunday?

FYI, we keep the Lord's Day (in honor of the LORD's resurrection)- which according to the calender is the first day of the week - holy as much as we can, doing no unnecessary work unless there is an emergency.

We do not regard keeping the LORD's Day holy as one that will earn one any brownie points with God, but that it is a day when one refrains from gainful work and just kick back, relax, rest, reflect on the goodness of the LORD, and let the world go by - no shopping,or doing any work around the house. We also attend worship services at the church and sometimes go visiting friends, the sick and whoever or have company over for dinner. We have also learned that if one works hard on the LORD's day the rest of the week becomes a real drag physically, mentally. We learned this when the brotherhood went to assist a churchman whose hog barns were destroyed by a tornado in the wee hours of a Sunday morning. That week was SOOOO long and so tiring - could hardly wait for the LORD's day to come around where we could step back and rest and no one expected anyone to work.

I have noticed something very interesting on my computer desktop. I have several gadgets on it including a calender. On it the first day of the week is Monday!!! So according to it, Sunday is the seventh day!!

Don't know if my answer answers any of your questions...

ginnyrose

Yes, God rested on the "Sabbath" (or "7th") day. However, this didn't mean he became lazy. It just means that He stopped creating things (at least, until He created Eve). So what did God do on the 7th day?

Hi ccchhhrrriiisss !

Just a small comment, if you will, on the above. Since Genesis 1 says that God created female on day 6, I take it Eve was created before the 7th day. Also, there is no clear sense anywhere in Scripture that God's creative work continued after day 7. Thanks for your comments.

I though this would happen and it did. I decided to leave it in because this is what many have gather from Revelations and also from going to the tomb on the first day of the week and his resurrection. Also the saint's collection was on the first day of the week. It doesn't really matter because everyday is the Lord's Day to me although I do gather with other believers on Sunday morning & evening, also Wednesday evening weekly.

Thanks Robert. I appreciate what you offer here. I think a lot of this discussion is summed up when you say "everyday is the Lord's Day to me". My comments are not specifically for Robert, by the way. The original poster is talking about the 7th day Sabbath and others are also talking about what the Lord's day means "to me". We need to be more clear if we are going to agree on the subject.

I also wanted to ask why the original poster is getting a debate on the Sabbath when he asked for responses from those who held to the 7th day Sabbath? Is it unchristian to hold to the Sabbath? I think we should leave his request in peace. Jesus said, "Peace be unto you."

What I don't understand, brother, is why you begin a thread that you already know is going to be controversial... and then tell everyone it's not up for discussion... and then it turns into a long discussion anyway...

Yeah, I just posted the same idea, but what I don't understand is why the OP cannot ask a question without it having to be turned into controversy by those who reply. He did not ask for a debate. I would say if there is a subject that is not clearly spoken against in Scripture that turns into a controversy, it does not speak well of those who respond. Nowhere in the New Testament does it speak against keeping the Sabbath.

No one prevented anyone from responding. I dont fully understand yet where Blaze is coming from, but for most folks when they hear "sabbath keeping" they hear heresy... and in most cases, thats true. If someone came here looking to meet and fellowship with those who teach there is no Trinity, or those who love Prosperity teaching... should we just ignore that to?

I don't understand why you insist on lumping clear heresies in with what Romans 14 clearly allows as a preference. I think you need to permit believers the peace to engage in whatever the Scriptures permit, unless you are pushing something extra-Biblical.

Hi ginny. Just a few comments, if I may.

I have one for you: which day of the week do you call the sabbath? Saturday or Sunday?

The Bible always calls the Sabbath "Saturday" (Friday evening to Saturday evening).

FYI, we keep the Lord's Day (in honor of the LORD's resurrection)- which according to the calender is the first day of the week - holy as much as we can, doing no unnecessary work unless there is an emergency.

Go by the Bible, not by the calendar.

It sounds like for you, Sunday is a sabbath where you do no work. Very similar to the recommended practice of the old covenant. Most believers today do this.

I have noticed something very interesting on my computer desktop. I have several gadgets on it including a calender. On it the first day of the week is Monday!!! So according to it, Sunday is the seventh day!!

That is a secular, recent trend. The first day of the week has always been Sunday, including in the gospels.

For what it is worth, being confused by all of the rules and interpretations associated with the Sabbath, I prayed and asked the Lord to show me His will in the matter. He made it clear that it is to be a day of rest - a day of resting in Him.

If you want to know if something that you intend to do is acceptable, just ask Him - but don't be surprised if your television breaks, or the dog chews up your favorite golfing shoes. If you really don't want to know, don't ask.

So often we miss His will because we are set upon that which we want to do - that which we think will be more enjoyable. But our Lord is the author and creator of true pleasure - pleasure that can only be found in Him by doing things His way.

We miss many blessings by disregarding His Word in the matter.

KrispyKrittr wrote:

Mainly because this is a public forum, and the exchange of thoughts, ideas & opinios is what we do here.

Krispy,

I realise that this is a public forum, and no one has prevented anyone for responding, but where does courtesy come in? Our brother clarified that he wasn't an SDA, just that he observed the Sabbath, he has not once implied that the Sabbath is a fellowship breaker, and he requested that this not become a debate about the Sabbath.

You and I have been around long enough to see this kind of thing go on before, and people have respected the thread starter's wishes, and began another thread. For instance, there have been many who have asked for others involved a house church (intentionally choosing the topic to incite empathy :-P), requesting that it not become a debate, and those who have been wary of the topic have come away seeing that it is not in fact heretical to avoid Institutional Churches on a Sunday, and that the key point of fellowship is community and the love of the brethren.

Having said all that, this discussion has gone surprisingly well, but if BlazedbyGod was the type that tends toward defensiveness (which is something both you and I have been guilty of in the past), this all could have gotten ugly in a hurry. The mere throwing around of the word "heresy" has made me cringe as I read though this. I have been in situations where taken issue to guys like Ray Comfort and Paris Reidhead expressing the need to help sinners see their sinfulness before presenting grace, and called it "legalism", again using the "H" word, understandably disturbing me also.

[b]I dont fully understand yet where Blaze is coming from[/b], but for most folks when they hear "sabbath keeping" they hear heresy... and in most cases, thats true.

If someone came here looking to meet and fellowship with those who teach [b]there is no Trinity[/b], or those who [b]love Prosperity teaching[/b]... should we just ignore that to?

Consider only the fact that Sabbath observance was instituted in the Garden, predating the Law. Moses in the Ten Commandment didn't say to "keep the Sabbath", but to "[b]remember[/b] the Sabbath and keep it holy", as if it was always a requirement, being highlighted by God's Law. Consider also that Christ said that not "one jot nor tittle" shall pass away from the Law, because he came to fulfill it.

Fact is, there is more Scriptural support for Sabbath observance than taking a "piece of bread" and a "sip of wine" and calling it Communion, and yet who hear is willing to call that heresy. Historically, the separation from the "seventh day" was one of the things introduced by Constantine and the by product of his effect on Christendom, along with Easter never falling on the same time as the Jewish Passover, regardless of the moon phase, and Christmas being celebrated on the day of the Roman winter solstice feast. Again, no accusations of heresy toward those celebrating Easter and Christmas, regardless of our view of the Catholic Mass.

I am far from suggesting that we ignore heresy, only that we avoid using our theological preferences to measure such a thing.

Having said all that, I still love ya, bro (my fellow KJV reading, outta-church-home-fellowship-er).

8-)

The Bible always calls the Sabbath "Saturday" (Friday evening to Saturday evening).

So, on what basis do you make this assumption?

In any case, one can quibble about whether one observes the LORD's Day or not and completely miss the point.

Jesus tells us in Mark 2:27: "And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath." As I understand this scripture Jesus is teaching us that man needs to take one day off to rest from his labors. In doing so, he/she reflects on what has been and directs his/her attention to the God who made all things possible. One needs this time of putting aside all business, all commerce activity, all unnecessary work to spend time in reflection/introspection of man, God and how the two interact.

To quibble about which specific day this occurs misses the whole point completely. Acts does teach us the Believers met on the first day of the week, so most Christians today observe this day as their Sabbath also. Now whether you want to observe Saturday as your Sabbath, go ahead! I will not judge you as being more holy nor less holy [either] for doing so. Remember what Col. 2:16 says: Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Will you do the same?

Blessings,
ginnyrose

So, on what basis do you make this assumption?

:-) It is not an assumption. Please don't take any offense. The Bible always calls the 7th day the Sabbath, which is basically our Saturday. That's all! ;-)

rbanks wrote:

Many of us on SI are concerned for genuine revival and when someone starts a public thread for all to see like this one then we in christian love will respond, especially to one whom we consider a brother like blaze.

I would also like to say that even though you started your post the way you did, I would also like to thank you for the truth concerning the errors of the SDA. We really do appreciate that part and I will not reprimand you for it either.

Am I led to believe, by you last sentence, that your comments regarding the "first part of my post", that there was a subtle rebuke there? If so, I wonder why so?

I too am one who is "concerned for genuine revival", but revival should not come at the cost of orthodoxy, and the blanket decision to imply that Sabbath observers are heretical has the potential to present a potential hinderence, similar to the following event in Finney's day:

Charles Finney wrote:

After the conversion of Mr. S, and of that class of young men to whom I have alluded, I thought it was time, if possible, to put a stop to the opposition of the Baptist church and minister. I therefore had an interview first with a deacon of the Baptist church, who had been very bitter in his opposition; and said to him, "Now you have carried your opposition far enough. You must be satisfied that this is the work of God. I have made no allusion in public to your opposition, and I do not wish to do so, or to appear to know that there is any such thing; but you have gone far enough; and I shall feel it my duty, if you do not stop immediately, to take you in hand, and expose your opposition from the pulpit." Things had got into such a state that I was sure that both God and the public would sustain me in carrying out the measure that I proposed.

He confessed, and said that he was sorry; and promised that he would make confession, and that he would not oppose the work any more. He said that he had made a great mistake, and had been deceived; but that he also had been very wicked about it. He then went after his minister; and I had a long conversation with them together. The minister confessed that he had been all wrong; that he had been deceived, and had been wicked; and that his sectarian feeling had carried him too far. He hoped that I would forgive him, and prayed God to forgive him. I told him that I should take no notice whatever of the opposition of his church, provided they stopped it; which they promised to do.

But I then said to him, "Now a considerable number of the young people, whose parents belong to your church, have been converted." If I recollect right, as many as forty of their young people had been converted in that revival. "Now," said I, "[b]if you go to proselyting, that will create a sectarian feeling in both churches, and will be worse than any opposition which you have offered[/b]." I said to him, "In spite of your opposition, the work has gone on; because the Presbyterian brethren have kept clear of a sectarian Spirit, and have had the spirit of prayer. But if you go to proselyting, it will destroy the spirit of prayer, and will stop the revival immediately." He knew it, he said; and therefore he would say nothing about receiving any of the converts, and would not open the doors of the church for their reception, until the revival was over; and then, without any proselyting, let the converts all join which church they pleased.

This was on Friday. The next day, Saturday, was the day for their monthly covenant meeting. When they had gathered, instead of keeping his word, he threw the doors of the church open and invited the converts to come forward and tell their experience and join the church. [b]As many as could be persuaded to do so, told their experience; and the next day there was a great parade in baptizing them[/b]. The minister sent off immediately, and secured the help of one of the most proselyting Baptist ministers that I ever knew. He came in and began to preach and lecture on baptism.

They traversed the town for converts in every direction; and whenever they could find anyone to join, they would get up a procession, and march, and sing, and make a great parade in going to the water and baptizing them. [b]This soon so grieved the Presbyterian church, as to destroy their spirit of prayer and faith, and the work came to a dead stand. For six weeks there was not a single conversion. All, both saints and sinners, were discussing the question of baptism[/b].

There was a considerable number of men, and some of them prominent men, in the village, that had been under strong conviction, and appeared to be near conversion, who had been entirely diverted by this discussion of baptism; and indeed, this seemed to be the universal effect. Everybody could see that the revival had stopped; and that the Baptists, although they had opposed the revival from the beginning, were bent upon having all the converts join their church. However, I think that a majority of those converted, could not be persuaded to be immersed, although nothing had been said to them on the other side.

I finally said to the people on the Sabbath, "[b]You see how it is that the work of conversion is suspended, and we do not know that a conversion has occurred now for six weeks; and you know the reason.[/b]" I did not tell them, at all, how the pastor of the Baptist church had violated his word, nor did I allude to it; for I knew that it would do no good, but much hurt, to inform the people that he had been guilty of taking such a course. But I said to them, "Now I do not want to take up a Sabbath in preaching on this subject; but if you will come on Wednesday afternoon at one o'clock, and bring your Bibles, and your lead pencils to mark the passages, I will read to you all the passages in the Bible that relate to the mode of baptism; and I will give you as nearly as I understand them, the views of our Baptist brethren on all those passages, together with my own; and you shall judge for yourselves where the truth lies."

When Wednesday came, the house was crowded. I saw quite a number of the Baptist brethren present. I began and read, first in the Old Testament, and then in the New, all the passages that had any reference to the mode of baptism, so far as I knew. [b]I gave the views that the Baptists had of those texts, and the reasons for their views. I then gave my own views, and my reasons for them.[/b] I saw that the impression was decided and good, and that no bad spirit prevailed; and the people appeared satisfied in regard to the mode of baptism. [b]The Baptist brethren, so far as I know, were quite satisfied that I stated their views fairly, and as strongly as they could state them themselves, and also their reasons for them[/b]. Before I dismissed the meeting I said, "If you will come tomorrow, at the same hour, at one o'clock, I will read to you all the passages in the Bible that relate to the subjects of baptism, and pursue the same course as I have done today."

The next day the house was crowded, if possible, more than the day before. Quite a number of the principal Baptist brethren were present; and I observed the old elder, the great proselyter, sitting in the congregation. After going through with the introductory services, I arose and commenced my reading. At this point the elder arose and said, "Mr. Finney, I have an appointment, and cannot stay to hear your readings. But I shall wish to answer you; and how shall I know what course you take?" I replied to him: "Elder, I have before me a little skeleton, wherein I quote all the passages that I shall read, and note the order in which I discuss the subject. You can have my skeleton, if you please, and reply to it." He then went out, and, as I supposed, went away to attend his appointment.

I then took up the covenant made with Abraham; and read everything in the Old Testament that directly bore upon the question of the relation of families and of children, to that covenant. I gave the Baptist view of the passages that I read, together with my own with the reasons on both sides, as I had done the day before. I then took up the New Testament, and went through with all the passages in that, referring to the subject. The people waxed very mellow; and the tears flowed very freely when I held up that covenant, as still the covenant which God makes with parents and their household. The congregation was much moved and melted.

Just before I was through, the deacon of the Presbyterian church had occasion to go out, with a child that had sat with him during the long meeting. He told me afterwards that, as he went into the vestibule of the church, he found the old elder sitting there with the door ajar, and listening to what I was saying, and absolutely weeping himself.

When I was done, the people thronged around me on every side, and with tears thanked me for so full and satisfactory an exhibition of that subject. I should have said that the meeting was attended, not only by members of the church, but by the community generally. [b]The question was intelligently settled, and soon the people ceased to talk about it. In the course of a few days the spirit of prayer returned, and the revival was revived and went on again with great power.[/b] Not long after, the ordinances were administered, and a large number of the converts united with the church.
[url="www.gospeltruth.net/1868Memoirs/mem10.htm"]www.gospeltruth.net/1868Memoirs/mem10.htm[/url]

My point in mentioning Revival as an Old Testament concept was not to deny Revival, but merely to contest the claim that the Sabbath, being an Old Testament concept, should be ignored. I must admit that I personally am on the fence regarding this matter, probably more out of a fear of the concequences to making a commitment toward Sabbath observance, than Theology. I too presented another with many of the verses that have been presented here, to a messianic brother, and found his response difficult to ignore.

My SDA comments were to distinguish Sabbath observance from an example of some of the heresies attached to it. Let's face it, take any Biblical princple, and someone has distorted it into heresy. That doesn't mean we reject Revival in the face of the recent Lakewood scenario, or decree monaticism in the face of Properity Gospel, or even deny "grace" in the face of those who "let sin abound, that grace abound".

I hope this helped.

Koheleth wrote:
The Bible always calls the 7th day the Sabbath, which is basically our Saturday. That's all! ;-)

Just to clarify, in Leviticus, Moses referred to the feasts and festivals as Sabbaths, even though they went for days.

Just to clarify, in Leviticus, Moses referred to the feasts and festivals as Sabbaths, even though they went for days.

Correct. The Bible always calls the 7th day the Sabbath. A sabbath is not necessarily the 7th day. Sabbath just means rest.

Hi Koheleth...

As for the creation of Eve, we know that God created mankind on the 6th day. There is much discussion if the prose spoken by God (including the phrase "male and female") included Eve. In fact, there is some debate whether these words "male and female" were singular or plural. In Genesis 2, when God speaks of the creation of Man (Adam) and Eve, we learn that the creation of Eve took place AFTER man had named all of the animals...and had found no suitable helpmeet. While this could have taken place on the 6th day (with a whole lot of fast naming going on), it is also possible that it could have taken place later.

Anyway, I will ask you just what I asked our brother Blazed: What do you think are the requirements for [i]remembering[/i] the Sabbath day?

In my opinion, it is not the day we spend "going to Church" (the early church did this EVERY day), worshipping (we did this everyday), or refraining from EVERY form of work (Jesus "worked" on the Sabbath, as did the disciples, as did God -- when He BLESSED the day). So what exactly are the requirements that you see for the day?

Uhm, I must say, though it wasn't my oringinal intent-but this particular sabbath thread is going pretty well....I am grateful.

In my opinion, it is not the day we spend "going to Church" (the early church did this EVERY day), worshipping (we did this everyday), or refraining from EVERY form of work (Jesus "worked" on the Sabbath, as did the disciples, as did God -- when He BLESSED the day). So what exactly are the requirements that you see for the day?

Good question ccchhhrrriiisss. I'm not sure anything is required of us in regard to the Sabbath in the light of Romans 14. However, it is clearly no sin to keep the Sabbath. I think something more important is obeying the direction of the Holy Spirit for your life and the things God reveals to you. I know the seventh day Sabbath is very special to some Christians, and I am saying this without any thought of Adventists. There are plenty of Christians who remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy and can do so without condemnation from God. It will be good for all of us to refrain from condemning anything that God does not condemn. These comments had no special reference to you, ccchhhrrriiisss, just the discussion in general. Take care.

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:

Anyway, I will ask you just what I asked our brother Blazed: What do you think are the requirements for [i]remembering[/i] the Sabbath day?

[b]In my opinion, it is not the day we spend "going to Church[/b]" (the early church did this EVERY day), worshipping (we did this everyday), or refraining from EVERY form of work (Jesus "worked" on the Sabbath, as did the disciples, [b]as did God -- when He BLESSED[/b] the day). So what exactly are the requirements that you see for the day?

Chris,

Jesus did work on the sabbath-but this was the work of God (preaching, healing, etc) However, you can't say that God worked because he "blessed" the day, because the scripture is clear that ON the seventh day God ENDED his work and he rested and was refreshed-Apparently to God, to bless the day was not something he considered "work"

It is ironic that they accused Jesus of breaking the sabbath by HEALING on the sabbath-but they never accused Jesus of breaking the sabbath because he TAUGHT/PREACHED on the sabbath.

Luke 13:Luke 13:10-17
10 [b]And he was teaching in one of the synagogues on the sabbath[/b]. 11 And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself. 12 And when Jesus saw her, he called her to him, and said unto her, Woman, thou art loosed from thine infirmity. 13 And he laid his hands on her: and immediately she was made straight, and glorified God. 14 And the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because that Jesus had healed on the sabbath day, and said unto the people, There are six days in which men ought to work: in them therefore come and be healed, and not on the sabbath day. 15 The Lord then answered him, and said, Thou hypocrite, doth not each one of you on the sabbath loose his ox or his ass from the stall, and lead him away to watering? 16 And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, [b]be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day[/b]? 17 And when he had said these things, all his adversaries were ashamed: and all the people rejoiced for all the glorious things that were done by him.

The thing is, the fact that Jesus healed her, the ruler of synagogue obviously didn't consider this a supernatural work/healing of God, but yet, when you read closely you find that Jesus even suggested that if there was a day for her to be healed on IT WAS THE SABBATH. Could even this be another reason why Jesus said " I am Lord also of the sabbath day"?

Why did he suggest that she should indeed be healed ON THE SABBATH? Is it possible that she should be healed on the sabbath day infact so she can REST and enjoy her God being a daughter of Abraham (of faith)? I am just speaking possiblities, I am NOT saying this is exactly what the verse is implying-however, I don't think it farfetched either to think this.

The point is, Jesus was NOT breaking His Father's commandment about the sabbath day by healing the woman-he was in fact doing just exactly what IT IS that we are to be doing on the sabbath days.

The work of God...I will explain this and go into a little more detail in a few.

But, to briefly answer your question about requirements (so to call them). For me, Isa 58 is the perfect example and way to answer this:

Isa 58:13[b]If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable ; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:[/b]

Turn your foot from the sabbath from doing any of your OWN pleasures, CALL the sabbath a delight (instead of calling it a burden and bondage as people do),ALSO calling it the holy of the LORD, honorable, and shalt HONOUR HIM BY NOT DOING MY OWN WAYS, nor my own pleasures, nor speaking my own words.

I also think it Good, that Jesus said:

John 5:20 [color=FF3300]For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. 21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 [b]That all men should honour the Son, EVEN AS they honour the Father[/b][/color]

What was one of the ways to HONOUR the Father?

Isa 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable ; [b]and shalt HONOUR HIM, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words[/b]

There were two main reasons why the Jews wanted to kill & crucify Jesus; and they were:

John 5:15 The man departed, and told the Jews that it was Jesus, which had made him whole. 16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, [b]and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day[/b]. 17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. 18 [b]Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God[/b].

(Jesus did NOT break the sabbath, and God indeed is his Father) This should mean something-as to one of the very reasons the Jews wanted Christ dead had to do with the him doing the ways of his Father ON the sabbath day.

Uhm, I must say, though it wasn't my oringinal intent-but this particular sabbath thread is going pretty well....I am grateful.

I wish I felt the same, but am glad the conversation is working out how you want.

Comments earlier on this thread plus the general history of SI establish that it is not possible to ask questions here without expecting to get into an off-topic row. I don't find this very encouraging.

When I say "pretty well" I mean as far unity, and respect- I do not see any strife or contention. or condeming judgement....but I understand what you said.

The Sabbath was made for man...man was not made for the Sabbath.

The Sabbath was made for man to rest.

No one in the New Testament era can keep, not even close to what was expected of Israel under the Old Covenant.

Now if man were made for the Sabbath you might have something to boast about.

There is nothing to boast about in keeping Saturday Only as some sort of Spiritual Experience you have over anyone else.

If you go out and drive on your Saturday and get in a car accident, and paramedics are called to assist YOU....YOU then are causing (according to YOUR belief) someone else to sin! You are causing them to have to WORK!
Where is the boasting here?

OUR rest is in the person of Jesus Christ, where we live and move and have our being, all day every day .

Blessings,
Rev Benjamin

No one in the New Testament era can keep, not even close to what was expected of Israel under the Old Covenant.

True.

But it is not so difficult to be obedient to the original intent as given to Adam and Eve, do you think? I love the day. Actually, the biggest difficulty I have is in refraining from doing anything creative on the LORD's day. I love to do all kinds of sewing which would be really relaxing. But it is being 'creative', something similar - except that God made his own components, I have to purchase mine - to what God did for six days before he had a rest. If God needed to rest from creating, this puny little human must certainly need it, too.

Blessings,
ginnyrose

Hi sister ginnyrose...

If God needed to rest from creating, this puny little human must certainly need it, too.

I do understand that there are some who believe that we are somehow bound to the 5th Commandment in regard to remembering the Sabbath day...and refraining from work on that day. The actual [i]day[/i], however, is open to debate...because the calendar has changed (at least twice). Did the original Sabbath fall upon what is now known as Saturday? Sunday? I don't know for sure. There is quite a bit of research needed for this in order to even reach a conclusion.

Yet this is far more pressing than the date: What does the Lord require from us on this day (if anything)? Between the original 7th day Sabbath until the Israelites were wandering in the wilderness, NOTHING is written in Scripture about the Sabbath!

The common perception about the Sabbath (whether people feel that it is on Saturday or Sunday, etc...) is that we are prohibited from working on that day...and that we are supposed to fellowship with believers on this day. Most people attend "Church" (assemble themselves together). As demonstrated in the old film [i]Chariots of Fire[/i], Scottish Olympic runner Eric Liddel refused to race on Sunday -- out of obligation for "remembering the Sabbath day." I've known people who refused to cook, clean or even walk around on that day.

But is this what the Lord meant? Jesus explained that it would be acceptable for a person to rescue his animal from a pit on the Sabbath -- because it was lawful to do GOOD on that day. I suppose that any of us would take our spouse or child to the hospital in case of an emergency on a Saturday and/or Sunday. Would this be causing a doctor to [i]sin[/i]? Jesus healed the sick on the Sabbath and was accused of "working" on that day. His response? It was lawful to do good. He also taught on the Sabbath (as did the apostles). While they did not earn a living from this, it was still [i]work[/i] (or, at least, one might assume it is). Jesus defended his disciples who picked grain on the Sabbath -- which could be considered farming on a much smaller scale.

So just what kind of work do you suppose is prohibited on a Sabbath?

Is anything else required in regard to the Sabbath?

This is the question that I've been waiting for a clear answer. It would be nice if someone could make a list...and explain...without trying to support it with the later law. I agree with our brother or sister who explained that Jesus FULFILLED the Law, thereby freeing us from the Law of sin and death. Jesus explained that the commandment against adultery is preempted by a command to refrain from LUST. The commandment against murder is preempted with commands not to HATE.

I would really like to see a clear list of these requirements...and just how they are justified by Scripture.

The actual day, however, is open to debate...because the calendar has changed (at least twice). Did the original Sabbath fall upon what is now known as Saturday? Sunday? I don't know for sure. There is quite a bit of research needed for this in order to even reach a conclusion.

There are many excellent and well-documented historical resources that show clearly that the 7th day today is what has always been regarded as the 7th day back to the time of Moses. The [i]calendar[/i] (month and day) changed, but the day of the week has never been changed in recorded history.

The common perception about the Sabbath (whether people feel that it is on Saturday or Sunday, etc...) is that we are prohibited from working on that day...and that we are supposed to fellowship with believers on this day. Most people attend "Church" (assemble themselves together). As demonstrated in the old film Chariots of Fire, Scottish Olympic runner Eric Liddel refused to race on Sunday -- out of obligation for "remembering the Sabbath day." I've known people who refused to cook, clean or even walk around on that day.

But is this what the Lord meant?

Depends on exactly which "meant" you are talking about. Which application? I think we are all aware that God gave very clear instructions on the Sabbath in the Old Testament. You can read them there. There is much less about the Sabbath outside of the Old Testament.

Jesus defended his disciples who picked grain on the Sabbath -- which could be considered farming on a much smaller scale.

If we come to calling this farming on a small scale, we are in league with the Pharisees. I think the reason Jesus came and said the kingdom of heaven is such that a little child can enter it was to free us from all this. No little child would ever call picking grain "farming".

So just what kind of work do you suppose is prohibited on a Sabbath?

Is anything else required in regard to the Sabbath?

This is the question that I've been waiting for a clear answer. It would be nice if someone could make a list...and explain...without trying to support it with the later law.

I would really like to see a clear list of these requirements...and just how they are justified by Scripture.

You are sounding a little demanding here, chris, but maybe I am misreading you. :-) Can you tell us what your motivation is for asking?

The command is to remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. I am not speaking about whether that command applies to today or not, just stating the text. I guess the list of requirements are: (1) remember the day, (2) keep it holy. By implication, if the day is forgotten or there is anything that defiles the day, then the commandment is broken.

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Hi sister ginnyrose...

If God needed to rest from creating, this puny little human must certainly need it, too.

I think that this is a misconception. God did not [i]need[/i] to rest following Creation -- because He does not grow tired or weary. The word "rest" simply means that God "ceased" from creating...because His work was finished. Thus, the Lord sanctified the day...so that it would be remembered that He had completed His work.

I do understand that there are some who believe that we are somehow bound to the 5th Commandment in regard to remembering the Sabbath day...and refraining from work on that day. The actual [i]day[/i], however, is open to debate...because the calendar has changed (at least twice). Did the original Sabbath fall upon what is now known as Saturday? Sunday? I don't know for sure. There is quite a bit of research needed for this in order to even reach a conclusion.

Yet this is far more pressing than the date: What does the Lord require from us on this day (if anything)? Between the original 7th day Sabbath until the Israelites were wandering in the wilderness, NOTHING is written in Scripture about the Sabbath!

The common perception about the Sabbath (whether people feel that it is on Saturday or Sunday, etc...) is that we are prohibited from working on that day...and that we are supposed to fellowship with believers on this day. Most people attend "Church" (assemble themselves together). As demonstrated in the old film [i]Chariots of Fire[/i], Scottish Olympic runner Eric Liddel refused to race on Sunday -- out of obligation for "remembering the Sabbath day." I've known people who refused to cook, clean or even walk around on that day.

But is this what the Lord meant? Jesus explained that it would be acceptable for a person to rescue his animal from a pit on the Sabbath -- because it was lawful to do GOOD on that day. I suppose that any of us would take our spouse or child to the hospital in case of an emergency on a Saturday and/or Sunday. Would this be causing a doctor to [i]sin[/i]? Jesus healed the sick on the Sabbath and was accused of "working" on that day. His response? It was lawful to do good. He also taught on the Sabbath (as did the apostles). While they did not earn a living from this, it was still [i]work[/i] (or, at least, one might assume it is). Jesus defended his disciples who picked grain on the Sabbath -- which could be considered farming on a much smaller scale.

So just what kind of work do you suppose is prohibited on a Sabbath?

Is anything else required in regard to the Sabbath?

This is the question that I've been waiting for a clear answer. It would be nice if someone could make a list...and explain...without trying to support it with the later law. I agree with our brother or sister who explained that Jesus FULFILLED the Law, thereby freeing us from the Law of sin and death. Jesus explained that the commandment against adultery is preempted by a command to refrain from LUST. The commandment against murder is preempted with commands not to HATE.

I would really like to see a clear list of these requirements...and just how they are justified by Scripture.

Chris, show me in scripture, where we are not required to keep the 10 Commandments-all 10 of them.

PS.Jesus did fulfill the law-but that was the Law of Moses-which had types and shadows that pointed to him. The 10 Commandments did NOT have types and shadows, neither was there in anything in the 10 Commandments that Christ had to fulfil.

Also, Just because Christ fulfilled the Law does not in no way mean that we do not have to keep certain parts of the law, and I will prove it:

Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery , Thou shalt not kill , Thou shalt not steal , Thou shalt not bear false witness , Thou shalt not covet ; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, [b]Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself[/b].

We have to love our neighbour, as we do our self right-well if Christ fulfilled the law, and we know that to "love thy neighbour as we love our self" is a part of the law-does that mean that we do not have to do it because Christ fulfilled the law-no, indeed it does not.

What about : Rom 2: 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, [b]but the doers of the law SHALL be justified[/b].

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: [b]here are they that keep the commandments of God, AND the faith of Jesus[/b].

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they [b]that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life[/b], and may enter in through the gates into the city.

I am not quite sure what people are trying to say when they say " Christ fulfilled the law"-somehow they take that to me that we do not have to keep the 10 Commandments-but the law that Christ came to fulfill was the law of Moses, not the 10 Commandments, and even still the sabbath came before both laws, and the Children of Israel kept the sabbath BEFORE EVER RECEIVING EITHER LAW.

You asked what kind of work do I believe is prohibited on the sabbath-I answered with Isa 58:13, however, I will also say:

I believe that anything that is my own pleasure, or my own ways, are prohibited, and thus on the sabbath the whole day should be rendered to the work and will of God to included : preaching, evangelizing, prayer, worship, devotion, reading of scripture, doing good, etc....yes, one may say I can do these things any day of the week, and that is true, but the commandment is to especially do these things on this day, as I will point out later from both old & new testament. Also this is to be done with the absence of my pleasure, on the sabbath I don't go clothes shoppng, becuase that would be something for me and my pleasure-instead, I devote the whole day to his wiil-will I buy a homeless man something to eat or wear on the sabbath, INDEED I will (because that is acts of compassion and mercy, and doing good) Will I watch the football game on the sabbath, no I will not, because that would be my pleasure and not the Father's pleasure on his holy day-I could watch football any of the other 6 days of the week.

"...nevertheless not MY WILL, BUT THY WILL BE DONE"

Have I told anyone on SI that they have to do what I do, the way I do it on the sabbath-NO, I have not, I have just shared what I do as an example.

The one thing that I have kind a stressed, was that the sabbath is in fact the 7th day, and not any other day, and neither did Christ change it to the first day.

Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, [b]I change not[/b];

PS: In Jerusalem, the first day of the week starts on Saturday evening when the Sun has gone down. Thus here in the states, when the first day of the week starts in Jerusalem it is only Sat evening here in the US.

Did the New Testament Church meet sometimes on the first day of the week, yes, but not because Jesus changed the sabbath from the 7th day to the first. And I also I have said that the "Lord's Day" is not Sunday or the first day of the week, but I did not say that it was the sabbath either. The Lord's day that John speaks of in Rev 1:9-10 is actually Nisan 14, the day that our Lord died, and scripture does in fact teach this. All you have to do is read the scripture [b]EDIT[/b]* REFERENCES OF Rev 1:9-10, Acts 20:7, Luke 22:19, and Exodus 12:11-18

You can clearly see it was the time of Passover & unleavened bread-Acts 20:4-6 even speaks to this. This is why throughout the NT the church would gather on the first day of the week-because of the Holy convocation of the feast of unleavened bread that to be on the first day of the week

Old_Joe wrote:

BlazedbyGod wrote:
PS.Jesus did fulfill the law-but that was the Law of Moses-which had types and shadows that pointed to him. The 10 Commandments did NOT have types and shadows, neither was there in anything in the 10 Commandments that Christ had to fulfil.

This is a most troubling statement, and taken exactly as written is entire heresy. Just in case your point was improperly conveyed, can you please enlarge upon it.

Old Joe

Why is this statement troubling Old Joe-there were no types and shadows in the 10 Commandments-that is what I meant by my statement that Christ had nothing to fulfil in the 10 Commandments. There were only types and shadows in the law of Moeses.

Law of Moses: Passover, Day of Atonement, sabbaths (plural) ceremonines, feasts, firstfruits,lambs, sin offerings and sacrifies etc...These are all the types and shadows that Christ fulfilled, and these are all in the law of Moses.....but there was none of this in the 10 Commandments.

Christ certainly obeyed the 10 Commandments, don't think that I was trying to say that he didn't-because he most certainly "always obeyed the Father's commandments"....but there were no types and shadows in the 10 Commandments for Christ to fulfill .

Also:

Luke 1:5THERE was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6[b]And they were both righteous before God, walking in ALL the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless[/b]

John the Baptist parents walked in "ALL" the commandments of God, so does that mean "they fulfilled the law" before Jesus came-the way people use that term around here? No, I think we both know that it doesn't......

All I am saying Old Joe, is there are no types and shadows in the 10 Commandments-they types and shadows that Christ came to fulfill was in the law (of Moses) and the prophecies of the prophets and Psalms.

There is no heresy in that, but that word seems to just get thrown around.

The 10 Commandments were written on two tablets of stone, the law of Moses was written in a book. A covenant was a covenant once blood was sprinkled upon it, and Moses sprinkled the blood on the book of the law, not the two stones. The 10 Commandments were "INSIDE" the ark of the covenant, while the book of the law (law of Moses) was " on the side" of the ark of the covenant.

Deut 31: 24And it came to pass, [b]when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book[/b], until they were finished, 25That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying, 26[b]Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.[/b]

Moses wrote the book of the Law, but God himself wrote the 10 Commandments both times with his own finger in stone-you can't see the difference in the 10 Commandments and the law of Moses.

Also, Deut 31 makes it perfectly clear, what law Paul is referring to in Col 2:16

Col 2:13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances [b]that was against us[/b], which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross....16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days

Now read Deut 31 again:
Deut 31: 24And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book[/b], until they were finished, 25That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying, 26[b]Take this BOOK OF THE LAW, and put it in(on) the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a WITNESS AGAINST THEE[/b]

PS: There are no "thou shalt not eat" this or that in the 10 Commandments, neither were there any "new moons" in the 10 Commandments, nor any annual or monthly sabbaths (plural) in the 10 Commandments-there are no feast days, drink offerings, sin offerings, in the 10 Commandments-all this was in the book of the law (law of Moses)

See for yourself, Here are the 10 Commandments:

Exodus 20:1And God spake all these words, saying,

2I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

6And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

7Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

8Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

10But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

11For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

12Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

13Thou shalt not kill.

14Thou shalt not commit adultery.

15Thou shalt not steal.

16Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

17Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's

You can clearly see that Col 2:13-14 is a reference to the "book of the law" which was AGAINST THEM(Deut 31:26)- not the 10 Commandements, and neither the 7th day sabbath contained in the 10 Commandments.

There is no scripture that says that 10 Commandments were written as a law AGAINST the children of Israel, but scripture is clear that the book of the law (law of Moses) was .

The law of Moses (book of the Law) was written because they broke the 10 Commandments EVEN BEFORE MOSES returned from the Mountain by having Aaron make the golden calf-and that broke the 1st commandment even before they received the 10 Commandments.

And I also I have said that the "Lord's Day" is not Sunday or the first day of the week, but I did not say that it was the sabbath either. The Lord's day that John speaks of in Rev 1:9-10 is actually Nisan 14, the day that our Lord died, and scripture does in fact teach this. All you have to do is read the scripture reference to John 1:9-10 and you will see this.

John 1:9-10 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.

Not sure how this clears any of that up. No reference to the Lord's day in John 1. I tend to think that the Lord's day in Revelation 1 is what has always been called the Lord's day in Scripture from the beginning.

This is a most troubling statement, and taken exactly as written is entire heresy. Just in case your point was improperly conveyed, can you please enlarge upon it.

Heresy? Meaning if one believed this they would not be a Christian? I do not think so. Keeping the Ten Commandments or believing they still apply will not keep anyone out of heaven.

Koheleth wrote:

And I also I have said that the "Lord's Day" is not Sunday or the first day of the week, but I did not say that it was the sabbath either. The Lord's day that John speaks of in Rev 1:9-10 is actually Nisan 14, the day that our Lord died, and scripture does in fact teach this. All you have to do is read the [b]scripture reference to John 1:9-10[/b] and you will see this.

John 1:9-10 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.

Not sure how this clears any of that up. No reference to the Lord's day in John 1. I tend to think that the Lord's day in Revelation 1 is what has always been called the Lord's day in Scripture from the beginning.

I'm sorry, I made a mistake, I didn't mean to write John 1:9-10, I was thinking OF John the writer of Rev 1:9-10, but I will fix this, it was early in the morning when I wrote that- I will rewrite what I MEANT to say that correct way.

Old_Joe wrote:

Koheleth wrote:

This is a most troubling statement, and taken exactly as written is entire heresy. Just in case your point was improperly conveyed, can you please enlarge upon it.

Heresy? Meaning if one believed this they would not be a Christian? I do not think so. Keeping the Ten Commandments or believing they still apply will not keep anyone out of heaven.

Yes, I mean that if someone believes that “there was not anything in the 10 commandments that Christ had to fulfil”, they are not a Christian.

Believing they still apply and stating that “there was not anything in the 10 commandments that Christ had to fulfil” are worlds apart.

Do they still apply? Yes. Are you or anyone else able to fulfill them in their entirety? Absolutely not! To claim such a thing is to both deny the atonement and break the first and the ninth commandments at the same time. (refer to Job 40:8) If one believes they can keep the Ten Commandments in their entirety, they know nothing yet as they ought to know, and they are excluded from heaven along with their painted righteousness.

Even if one errantly believed they are now able to fulfill them in their entirety, what about the times in their past when they were unable to fulfill them? To actually be a “Christian”, who is it that absolutely must fulfill ALL the law of God on their behalf? Past, present and future?

If Christ is actually your Redeemer, your motivation to refrain from sin is not merely because something is a commandment, but because you simply do not want to heap any more sin on your Saviour. The motivating factor of the former is of a self-serving obligatory nature to which even the heathen profess to obtain, whereas the motivating factor of the latter is out of love to your Saviour.

Old Joe

So according to your record Old Joe, I am NOT a Christian?

Tell me, what "IN" the 10 Commandments did Christ have to fulfil? What type, what shadow?

Again, and what about John Baptist parents who kept "ALL the commandments of God and ordinances BLAMELESS" and were rigtheous before God. It did say they kept "ALL" the commandments of God.

Joe, you mean to tell me, that a Spirit filled believer, walking in the Spirit, living in the Spirit cannot obey the 10 Commandments? Is not Christ INSIDE of his believers to ENABLE them to keep God's 10 Commandments as he did when he was on earth in the flesh?

Are we not to be conformed to his image?

Old Joe You said: "The motivating factor of the former is of a self-serving obligatory nature to which even the heathen profess to obtain, [b]whereas the motivating factor of the latter is OUT OF LOVE TO YOUR SAVIOUR[/b]."

And how did the Saviour say to do that: John 14:15 "[color=CC0000]If ye love me; KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS[/color] "..

Old Joe, do you love Jesus? If you do, then Jesus said :"...KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS"

This is not about self rightesouness-this is about OBEDIENCE because I love him.

He said if you love him TO KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS. And to "remember the sabbath day to keep it holy" is one of his commandments.

i believe it is possible to keep the commandments (in the flesh) but without Christ we couldn't change the inside of the cup. That why Jesus called the Pharisees white washed tombs, or clean on the outside, but inside full of dead mans bones.
Paul even said " as for legalistic righteousness,he was faultless"Phil.:3vers. 4-6
But that was self righteousness, and he considered it "dung" of tossed aside, to know the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. The Law was never meant to bring Godliness, it was a picture of what righteousness would look like, but it didn't produce true righteousness, which is Christ himself dwelling in us, which is all Love joy and peace, which is above the law because perfect love does no harm.

Love in Christ tom

Hi Blazed and Koheleth...

You are sounding a little demanding here, chris, but maybe I am misreading you. Can you tell us what your motivation is for asking?

Yet there are professions that work and operate on the Sabbath (whether someone calls it Saturday or Sunday or another day). Doctors "work" on such days. Is that sinful? You can say that it is -- but I suspect that you wouldn't wait until Sunday or Monday to take your hurting child or spouse to the hospital (and "cause" someone to "break a commandment"). How many things do we partake in on the "Sabbath" that benefit from someone else working on that day? Do we read the newspaper? Well, someone worked on Saturday or Sunday to get it to you! Do we go to the store? Well, someone is working on that day for us. Do you see what I mean here? Was this command because God blessed a particular day (which, according to Jewish belief of the Old Testament, is from sunset to sunset, rather than midnight to midnight) -- or was this meant to cause rememberance of the original sabbath (the completion of God's work in creation)?

You might say that there are "evidences" that the Sabbath today ("Yom Shabbat") is the same as the Sabbath of the Old Testament -- but that is a stretch. There is quite a bit of evidence that says otherwise, and you can find it by simply googling it or speaking with a scholar of Hebrew customs and culture. There is question as to which day of the week actually makes a "Sabbath" -- because the "months" of the ancient Hebrew calendar do not coincide with the modern Hebrew calendar, and those days do not constitute a 365 day calendar year anyway. Regardless, you should at least be open to the possibility that the original 7th day might not be pinpointed as "Saturday" today.

Anyway, the point of this is to find the truth. However, I would also like to hear just what those who supposedly observe the Sabbath feel is required on that day.

Is it just a day to not work and remember the day that God was finished from creation?

Or is there something more? What is the extent of "work" that can be accomplished on that day? Can I go jogging? Can I ride my bicycle? Can I eat at McDonalds? Can I go shopping?

You might think that my questions are "nitpicking" -- but they are legitimate questions to those who feel that we are bound to the letter of the Law rather than the root of it. There were NO REQUIREMENTS for the Sabbath mentioned in Scripture UNTIL the Israelites were wandering through the desert. In fact, the first time the word "Sabbath" even appears in the Scriptures is in Exodus 16:23, instructing people to not COOK on the Sabbath!

As far as the 10 Commandments are concerned: Didn't Jesus speak about this? Jesus, speaking to Jewish observers of the Law, said:

Matthew 5:17-48 (King James Version)

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;

24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:

32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:

34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:

35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.

36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.

37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.

41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.

42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

It might be helpful to remember just what God sanctified on the 7th day. Genesis 2:3 says: "And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made." God did this BEFORE there was a "calendar" (let alone a Hebrew or Greco-Roman calendar). In other words, God did not sanctify SATURDAY or SUNDAY. He sanctified the [u]original[/u] 7th day -- the day He later asked us to remember.

Look, I [u]remember[/u] the original Sabbath each and every day. I realize that God's work was finished by that day, and that He blessed the day. I just don't know if the present Friday night-Saturday night is really that day. I also don't know what it would be that God would require of us regarding that day. Does God want us to STOP all forms of work? Exodus 16, which predates the 10 Commandments by four chapters and of which Blazed has quoted several times, actually commands individuals to NOT COOK (by preparing food the day before). The Ten Commandments simply tell us to "remember" the Sabbath day and to keep it holy by not working or allowing anyone to work for us (so much for buying a pizza on that day)! In Numbers 32-36, the Israelites were commanded to (and did) stone a man who simply went out gathering sticks! OUCH! Jeremiah 17 even forbids carrying a load to your house or out of your house on the Sabbath. So much for taking out the trash!

Yet the modern association with those who supposedly "keep the Sabbath" tends to be divided between those who feel that they are keeping the Sabbath on Saturday, those who keep it on Sunday, and those who feel that everyday is a Sabbath rest (and that we are no longer bound by its specific laws, rules and regulations). Those who claim to "keep" the Sabbath (whether on Saturday or Sunday) often point to it as the day that they fellowship with the local Church. Yet this isn't even REMOTELY scriptural! In fact, there are verses in the Old Testament that say we are supposed to avoid meeting others on the Sabbath!

How was the Sabbath approached in the New Testament? Jesus healed on the Sabbath and seemed to give permission to haul your son or ox out of a pit (Luke 14:5-7). Jesus healed the sick on the Sabbath, justified a man who carried his mat after being healed (John 5:8-10) and acknowledged that it was okay to circumcize a child (in order to keep the Law) on the Sabbath day (John 7:21-23). Jesus even justified his disciples picking grain on the Sabbath -- even associating the particular laws regarding Sabbath regulations with laws that would have forbid David and his men from eating consecrated bread (Mark 2:23-28). Jesus told them that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath and explained that He was "Lord" (capital "L") of the Sabbath.

Yes, the disciples preached at the Temple and synagogues on the Sabbath, but it never says that they did this out of regulation or compulsion. It just so happened that you have a gathered, captive audience on that day.

That being said, I think that most Americans work on Monday-Friday. We have BOTH Saturday and Sunday off. We are free to rest and remember the finished creation on that day. Yet the argument has now deviated to which day we should attend "worship services." The Saturday folks are pointing fingers at the Sunday folks (and vice versa) -- when the New Testament clearly shows that early believers met EVERY day. Anyway, here are a few passages to consider in this debate:

[b]Colossians 2:16-17 KJV[/b]

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

[b]Colossians 2:16-17 NIV[/b]

16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.
17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

[b]Colossians 2:16-17 NASB[/b]

16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day --
17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

[b]Hebrews 4:6-13 KJV[/b]

6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

[b]Hebrews 4:6-13 NIV[/b]

6 It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of their disobedience.
7 Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time later he spoke through David, as was said before:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts."
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day.
9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God;
10 for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his.
11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.
12 For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

[b]Hebrews 4:6-13 NASB[/b]

6 Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience,
7 He again fixes a certain day, "Today," saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before,
"TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS."
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that.
9 So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.
10 For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.
11 Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.
12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.

Is there anything else?

:-)

Hi Chris! Sorry I left out the extra letters . . . hope that is alright. :-?

Well, on to the dialogue. Thanks for your comments!

I certainly disagree with your opinion in the matter

I am not sure you know what my opinion is. Can you state it for me, please?

Doctors "work" on such days. Is that sinful? You can say that it is

I have never implied such, and I think Jesus' example of doing good and healing on the Sabbath is the only answer needed here.

How many things do we partake in on the "Sabbath" that benefit from someone else working on that day? Do we read the newspaper? Well, someone worked on Saturday or Sunday to get it to you! Do we go to the store? Well, someone is working on that day for us.

Those who observe the Sabbath because they believe in following the commandment do not go to a store or read a newspaper that was printed that day, because that would make them a hypocrite.

You might say that there are "evidences" that the Sabbath today ("Yom Shabbat") is the same as the Sabbath of the Old Testament -- but that is a stretch. There is quite a bit of evidence that says otherwise, and you can find it by simply googling it or speaking with a scholar of Hebrew customs and culture. There is question as to which day of the week actually makes a "Sabbath" -- because the "months" of the ancient Hebrew calendar do not coincide with the modern Hebrew calendar, and those days do not constitute a 365 day calendar year anyway. Regardless, you should at least be open to the possibility that the original 7th day might not be pinpointed as "Saturday" today.

This is a question of whether today's 7th day is the same as the 7th day in the time of Moses or Bible times. This fact is well established from many sources, both secular and sacred.

However, I would also like to hear just what those who supposedly observe the Sabbath feel is required on that day.

Can I go jogging? Can I ride my bicycle? Can I eat at McDonalds? Can I go shopping?

Have you asked God these questions first? If so, what did he say?

There were NO REQUIREMENTS for the Sabbath mentioned in Scripture UNTIL the Israelites were wandering through the desert.

There were also no requirements for marital faithfulness (adultery), stealing, lying, etc. God gave very few commandments before the Israelites came out of Egypt. I can think of three, although there are probably more.

The question is whether or not Jesus fulfilled the Law (verse 17, 18).

There is no question. He fulfilled it. I don't think that means that believers are to be lawless.

Look, I [u]remember[/u] the original Sabbath each and every day.

I hope our discussion continues to go well, chris. Please don't feel like you need to justify what you do, at least not to me. I have never asked you whether you keep the Sabbath or not.

. . . (so much for buying a pizza on that day)!

So much for taking out the trash!

Chris, you are correct that those who observe the Sabbath do not do these things. I am sorry if I do not understand something more you are looking for. Are you asking if you should do those things? Obviously, they are breaking the Sabbath regulations in Exodus that you are referring to in your post.

In fact, there are verses in the Old Testament that say we are supposed to avoid meeting others on the Sabbath!

I have never heard that. What would one of those verses be?

Yet the argument has now deviated to which day we should attend "worship services."

Perhaps from somewhere else. I have said nothing about this. For the record, I do think it is compatible with Scripture.

The Saturday folks are pointing fingers at the Sunday folks (and vice versa)

That would be a bad situation if it were happening. I do not wish to be part of such a crowd. I don't think anything I have said falls into this category, and if so it was misunderstood.

If possible, I would like someone to make a list regarding what they think is required of us on a "Sabbath."

Why make lists outside of the Bible? Romans 14 indicates that the New Testament standard is for every man to be fully convinced and observe days according to that. There is no value in making regulations outside of the Bible, just like the Pharisees did, so why call for them? They will only lead to "commandments of men", which Jesus rebuked. Romans 14, plus the rest of Scripture is all that is necessary on this point.

Hi Koheleth...

Whoa....slow down there, brother. My post was directed to you AND brother Blazed. Some of it was directed to you and some to him. I wasn't trying to put "words in your mouth" (so to speak). In addition, when I said "you can say" -- it wasn't implying that you actually SAID it. Some of the post was actually in response of what others in the past have said about honoring the Sabbath day.

As far as your opinion about the Sabbath -- that is what I have been asking all along! Yet your posts don't seem to indicate where you stand on the issue (at least, clearly). I have asked both you and Blazed to clearly indicate what you believe about the day, yet nothing has indicated the extent of your beliefs. From what you have written, I am assuming that you feel that we are still required to refrain from working on that day. Of course, this is an assumption, because I have not clearly seen you say, "[i]I believe[/i]..." No hard feeling are meant, nor do I want you to think that I somehow feel that I know what you believe. Yet you have posted quite a bit, and I still can't figure out why. On the other hand, you did question my motives too.

I suppose that it should be clear that I don't have any ulterior motives in this, except in a search for truth...and the hope that we can provoke one another toward further study.

This is a question of whether today's 7th day is the same as the 7th day in the time of Moses or Bible times. This fact is well established from many sources, both secular and sacred.

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
"Can I go jogging? Can I ride my bicycle? Can I eat at McDonalds? Can I go shopping?"

Have you asked God these questions first? If so, what did he say?

There were also no requirements for marital faithfulness (adultery), stealing, lying, etc. God gave very few commandments before the Israelites came out of Egypt. I can think of three, although there are probably more.

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
"The question is whether or not Jesus fulfilled the Law (verse 17, 18)."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is no question. He fulfilled it. I don't think that means that believers are to be lawless.

[b]Matthew 5:17-18[/b]

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, [u]but to fulfil[/u].

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, [u]till all be fulfilled[/u].

I hope our discussion continues to go well, chris. Please don't feel like you need to justify what you do, at least not to me. I have never asked you whether you keep the Sabbath or not.

Chris, you are correct that those who observe the Sabbath do not do these things. I am sorry if I do not understand something more you are looking for. Are you asking if you should do those things? Obviously, they are breaking the Sabbath regulations in Exodus that you are referring to in your post.

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
In fact, there are verses in the Old Testament that say we are supposed to avoid meeting others on the Sabbath!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have never heard that. What would one of those verses be?

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Yet the argument has now deviated to which day we should attend "worship services."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Perhaps from somewhere else. I have said nothing about this. For the record, I do think it is compatible with Scripture.

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
"If possible, I would like someone to make a list regarding what they think is required of us on a "Sabbath."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why make lists outside of the Bible? Romans 14 indicates that the New Testament standard is for every man to be fully convinced and observe days according to that. There is no value in making regulations outside of the Bible, just like the Pharisees did, so why call for them? They will only lead to "commandments of men", which Jesus rebuked. Romans 14, plus the rest of Scripture is all that is necessary on this point.

[b]Colossians 2:16-17 KJV[/b]

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

[b]Colossians 2:16-17 NIV[/b]

16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.
17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

[b]Colossians 2:16-17 NASB[/b]

16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day --
17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

I have a feeling that we agree much more than we disagree. I don't have a problem with anyone who wants to remember the Sabbath (especially, the ORIGINAL work that was accomplished by the 7th day). However, I sort of feel perplexed when I hear the need to honor the day...without anyone saying just what that actually entails.

If I were to feel legalistically bound to remember the Sabbath day, it would simply be to remember it and not to work that actually was part of my profession. Period. In this sense, I fulfill the commandment (and have for most of my life...without even knowing it). I think that much of the additional rules for living are simply things that we are no longer bound to. Of course, there is debate over whether or not we are even bound to the command regarding the Sabbath in the first place. My view is that EVERY day is a Sabbath for God's people.

:-)

Old_Joe wrote:

So according to your record Old Joe, I am NOT a Christian?

Tell me, what "IN" the 10 Commandments did Christ have to fulfil? What type, what shadow?

Again, and what about John Baptist parents who kept "ALL the commandments of God and ordinances BLAMELESS" and were rigtheous before God. It did say they kept "ALL" the commandments of God.

Joe, you mean to tell me, that a Spirit filled believer, walking in the Spirit, living in the Spirit cannot obey the 10 Commandments? Is not Christ INSIDE of his believers to ENABLE them to keep God's 10 Commandments as he did when he was on earth in the flesh?

Are we not to be conformed to his image?

Old Joe You said: "The motivating factor of the former is of a self-serving obligatory nature to which even the heathen profess to obtain, [b]whereas the motivating factor of the latter is OUT OF LOVE TO YOUR SAVIOUR[/b]."

And how did the Saviour say to do that: John 14:15 "[color=CC0000]If ye love me; KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS[/color] "..

Old Joe, do you love Jesus? If you do, then Jesus said :"...KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS"

This is not about self rightesouness-this is about OBEDIENCE because I love him.

He said if you love him TO KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS. And to "remember the sabbath day to keep it holy" is one of his commandments.

No type, no shadow, just the absolute perfection required by the commandments.

Is your understanding of God ABSOLUTELY perfect, if not you have broken the first. Have you ever put anything, including a commandment or bible truth above the very person of God, if so you have broken the second. Have you ever approached God with even the slightest iota of irreverence, if so you have broken the third. Have your thoughts always been entirely and perfectly centered on Christ on the Lord’s Day, if so you have broken the fourth. Has/is your honoring of your parents always been entirely and absolutely perfect, if not you have broken the fifth. Have you ever been angry at someone without a cause, if so you have broken the sixth. Have your relational thoughts always and only been entirely perfectly reserved for your wife, if not you have broken the seventh. Ever even considered or accidentally taken anything that did not belong to you, including time, if so you have broken the eighth. Have you ever even considered shading a story ever so lightly in your favor, if so you have broken the ninth. Have you ever thought you may need anything of this world above the absolute minimum requirements for sustaining physical and spiritual life ever, if so you have broken the tenth.

If you are trying to tell me your obedience in these things always has been/is/always will be absolutely perfect, it is only a display of ignorance of the very perfection required of the law. At best all of mankind’s obedience to any commandment is partial. That is to say that if the law is perfect at 100%, man’s obedience may be some relative percentage of 5-10-15% but it never makes it to the 100% perfection that the law requires. To be told to “keep the commandments” is simply an exhortation to sanctification and growth in personal practical holiness in preparation of the saint for the next world. Yet the attainment of the 100% perfection required of the law cannot be accomplished here.

If you believe otherwise, I would like for you to show me an example of a man apart from Christ who has kept all the commandments in their absolute perfection without any need of fulfillment of the requirements of perfection by Christ. The rich young ruler made the highest profession of any in the Bible with this regard, yet when pushed further than his profession, his denial of the first and second commandments were recorded for all posterity to see.

Old Joe

Gen 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, [b]and be thou perfect[/b].

Matt 5:48 [color=FF0000]BE YE therefore perfect, EVEN AS your Father which is in heaven is perfect.[/color]

Luke 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in [b]ALL the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Deut 18:13 Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.

2 Chron 19:9 And he charged them, saying, Thus shall ye do in the fear of the LORD, faithfully, and [b]with a perfect heart[/b]

Job 1:1There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; [b]and that man was perfect[/b] and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Job 8:20 Behold, God will not cast away a perfect man, neither will he help the evil doers

Psalm 101:2 I will behave myself wisely in a perfect way. O when wilt thou come unto me? I will walk within my house with a perfect heart

And finally:

John 17:3 [color=CC0000]I in them, and thou in me, [b]that they may be made perfect in one[/b]; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.[/color]

2 Tim 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

There is no scripture that says Jesus had to fulfil the 10 Commandments-there was nothing in them for him to fulfil. Fulfil in scripture, doesn't mean do away, or put to an end. And whether you believe or know this or not, we have things to fulfil:

Matt 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh "US TO FULFIL ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS". Then he suffered him.

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: [b]for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law[/b]. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: [b]therefore love is the fulfilling of the law[/b].

Just because Christ fulfilled the law, doesn't mean that there are no parts of the law that we do not have to fulfil. We have to fulfil the duty to love, and to love is of the law.

PS: "keep my commandments"-means all of them, in which remembering to keep the sabbath day holy is one of his commandments Old Joe.

: You didn't answer my question about me not being a Christain according to your record?

Old_Joe wrote:

BlazedbyGod wrote:

Old_Joe wrote:

So according to your record Old Joe, I am NOT a Christian?

Tell me, what "IN" the 10 Commandments did Christ have to fulfil? What type, what shadow?

Again, and what about John Baptist parents who kept "ALL the commandments of God and ordinances BLAMELESS" and were rigtheous before God. It did say they kept "ALL" the commandments of God.

Joe, you mean to tell me, that a Spirit filled believer, walking in the Spirit, living in the Spirit cannot obey the 10 Commandments? Is not Christ INSIDE of his believers to ENABLE them to keep God's 10 Commandments as he did when he was on earth in the flesh?

Are we not to be conformed to his image?

Old Joe You said: "The motivating factor of the former is of a self-serving obligatory nature to which even the heathen profess to obtain, [b]whereas the motivating factor of the latter is OUT OF LOVE TO YOUR SAVIOUR[/b]."

And how did the Saviour say to do that: John 14:15 "[color=CC0000]If ye love me; KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS[/color] "..

Old Joe, do you love Jesus? If you do, then Jesus said :"...KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS"

This is not about self rightesouness-this is about OBEDIENCE because I love him.

He said if you love him TO KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS. And to "remember the sabbath day to keep it holy" is one of his commandments.

No type, no shadow, just the absolute perfection required by the commandments.

Is your understanding of God ABSOLUTELY perfect, if not you have broken the first. Have you ever put anything, including a commandment or bible truth above the very person of God, if so you have broken the second. Have you ever approached God with even the slightest iota of irreverence, if so you have broken the third. Have your thoughts always been entirely and perfectly centered on Christ on the Lord’s Day, if so you have broken the fourth. Has/is your honoring of your parents always been entirely and absolutely perfect, if not you have broken the fifth. Have you ever been angry at someone without a cause, if so you have broken the sixth. Have your relational thoughts always and only been entirely perfectly reserved for your wife, if not you have broken the seventh. Ever even considered or accidentally taken anything that did not belong to you, including time, if so you have broken the eighth. Have you ever even considered shading a story ever so lightly in your favor, if so you have broken the ninth. Have you ever thought you may need anything of this world above the absolute minimum requirements for sustaining physical and spiritual life ever, if so you have broken the tenth.

If you are trying to tell me your obedience in these things always has been/is/always will be absolutely perfect, it is only a display of ignorance of the very perfection required of the law. At best all of mankind’s obedience to any commandment is partial. That is to say that if the law is perfect at 100%, man’s obedience may be some relative percentage of 5-10-15% but it never makes it to the 100% perfection that the law requires. To be told to “keep the commandments” is simply an exhortation to sanctification and growth in personal practical holiness in preparation of the saint for the next world. Yet the attainment of the 100% perfection required of the law cannot be accomplished here.

If you believe otherwise, I would like for you to show me an example of a man apart from Christ who has kept all the commandments in their absolute perfection without any need of fulfillment of the requirements of perfection by Christ. The rich young ruler made the highest profession of any in the Bible with this regard, yet when pushed further than his profession, his denial of the first and second commandments were recorded for all posterity to see.

Old Joe

Matt 5:48 [color=FF0000]BE YE therefore perfect, EVEN AS your Father which is in heaven is perfect.[/color]

PS: You didn't answer my question about me not being a Christain according to your record?

It's your own testimony. If you believe “there was not anything in the 10 commandments that Christ had to fulfil”, then though your profession may be as high as the rich young ruler you simply are not a Christian. You might not believe this now, but eventually your fear will come upon you as an overwhelming flood.

It seems now that you are also making claims to perfection? Keep going, it will be interesting to see exactly how high your profession goes.

Old Joe

All throughout scripture God told people to be perfect, yet you are saying this was not possible-when in fact scripture clearly says Job was perfect, God told Abram to walk before me and BE THOU PERFECT....Christ said to BE PERFECT EVEN AS YOUR FATHER which is in heaven PERFECT.

Was the rich young ruler a Spirit filled believer-I think not, thus his profession was indeed nought and in and of the flesh-which is why he eventually saw his own shortcoming-

What in the 10 Commandments did Christ have to fulfil-you have not answered this yet?

In the law of Moses he had to fulfil being the passover Lamb, the sacrifical lamb, the firsfruits, the sin offering, etc...but what did he have to fulfil "IN" the 10 Commandments.

Tell me also why he supposedly had to fulfil something "IN" the 10 Commandments. And just exactly what was it that he had to fulfil?

There is no scripture for this that you claim-if there is, post it for all to see, if not, then by default that is a invalid statement with no scriptural background or support.

Amen to that.

Old_Joe wrote:

BlazedbyGod wrote:

PS: You didn't answer my question about me not being a Christain according to your record?

It's your own testimony. If you believe “there was not anything in the 10 commandments that Christ had to fulfil”, then though your profession may be as high as the rich young ruler you simply are not a Christian. You might not believe this now, but eventually your fear will come upon you as an overwhelming flood.

Okay guys, I'm not a moderator around here, but I'm sure none that are would mind my attempt at "peace-making" here, so we can stop the pages of excessive quotations, and potentially restore unity.

BlazedbyGod:

Are you saying that you actually "[b]keep[/b] all the Commandments", in the sense that you have a 100% hit rate, or are you saying that no Commandment should be ignored in our obedience?

Old-Joe:

Are you claiming that BlazedbyGod is apostate because you believe that he has made a statement that contradicts orthodoxy, or because you hear in what he is posting that he is sinless?

I have noticed that you have both been responding to each other's questions by quoting a bunch of Scripture and then demanding the other answer the question you have been asking. I'll even be happy with you letting me know if I have expressed you questions adequately, because you both have seemed to stall at this point.

May I ask that YOU answer these questions, without quoting Scripture. You are both reading the same Scripture, but coming up with different results. What seems to be needed here is that you bear your own soul, rather than blaming your theology. Let's face it, if a Catholic and a Protestant were to quote James 2:20-26 to each other, without sharing what it is about them that hold to what they hold, all they would have would be a pointless argument.

In essence, there are possibilities here:

1. One is deceived
2. Both are deceived
3. Both are misunderstanding each other, and/or putting words in the other's mouth.

Either way, I ask you, what [b]you[/b] both see in the Scriptures?

BTW ... Yes I am kinda setting you both up, because I have a feeling I know what your answers will be. The question is, how curious are you to hear my response to them?

There is much for you to gain here, if you can yield a little of yourselves.

My post was directed to you AND brother Blazed.

No problem. I had no easy way to sort out which was which and wanted to clarify where I was coming from. I feel this post has turned more into a debate than it was after the first post and I would prefer to avoid that.

As far as your opinion about the Sabbath -- that is what I have been asking all along! Yet your posts don't seem to indicate where you stand on the issue (at least, clearly).

I have stated a few times that Romans 14 is so directly applicable to this discussion. I believe that is the Scripture. As far as requesting my opinion, I have truly refrained because I don't feel like opinions are helpful here. I really only want to share what the word of God shares about the Sabbath. The essence of that is that the Sabbath was made for man, Christ is the Lord of the Sabbath, and each one should be fully convinced in how to observe each day to the Lord. Because days are an "each one" matter in Scripture, asking for more about the Sabbath would be inquiring into personal practices and preferences of the faith.

There is nothing wrong, of course, when asking for opinion or preference, but you have asked what Scripture requires. My understanding I have stated in the above paragraph.

There were commands in regard to adultery, simply in the sense of creation itself. God made one woman for one man, and that a man shall leave his mother and be united with his wife (not wives).

There were commands in regard to the Sabbath, simply in the sense of creation itself. God sanctified and blessed one day in seven and rested on that day. ;-)

Rather, there was a law written in our hearts -- a gentle voice of the Holy Spirit that leads us to know right from wrong.

But how is this law of the heart defined? There are fine Bible-believing Christians who would say that this law includes the Sabbath. Many have acknowledged that nine of the ten commandments are moral standards. Then there are those who say that actually the "law written in our hearts" and the "gentle voice of the Holy Spirit" indicates the Sabbath. Who determines whether the Ten Commandments stand as a unit as moral law, as eternal decrees?

Did Jesus fulfill the Law? Are we presently bound to it?

Of course Jesus fulfilled all the law. The moral requirements, the prophecies, and the types. For the second question, our beloved brother the apostle John says that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. Therefore, in order to have eternal life we are bound to the law. If we break that moral law, we will not enter into eternal life.

I just don't believe (from understanding God's sacrifice) how we can be bound to fulfillment of the Law.

I suppose it is all a matter of definitions and perspective, but the Scripture does teach that believers are to fulfill the law, as well as to fulfill many other things Christ came and died and rose again for. Paul speaks of fulfilling the sufferings of Christ, etc. This is the heritage of the saints.

Exodus 16:29 (KJV) states: "See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day."

I would understand this to refer to not going out to gather bread, being pretty limited by the context. The rest of the Torah gives many examples of the Israelites being called together to assemble on various sabbaths. Traditional Jews assemble on the Sabbath without a thought that doing so is breaking it. However, perhaps we could simply agree that Scripture is not very clear either way on this point?

Further, there are restrictions about travel on the Sabbath (a "Sabbath's day journey" -- referred to in Acts 1:12). Most of us exceed that each and every Saturday/Sunday when we travel to fellowship with the Church.

The Sabbath day's journey was a rule of men that has no basis in Scripture. Therefore, that idea should be thrown out. Anyone who wishes to enforce such an idea as a rule is in full league with the Pharisees.

What I am trying to say is that we are freed from the Law -- no longer bound to obey every word of it. We don't stone our children (or those who carry sticks on the Sabbath day). Further, we don't fulfill every dot and tittle of the Law. Why? It was fulfilled for us. Jesus went so far as to lay the axe to the root of the Law -- saying to avoid lust rather than adultery, hate rather than murder, etc...

There seem to be different parts of the Law, just as there are different parts of Scripture (law, historical, poetic, prophets). And so, those different portions of the law have changed under Christ. There is no more temple (or tabernacle) in Jerusalem. Some parts of the Law of Moses are gone forever. Some parts still apply fully. And some parts have a different application. For my own position, I would not say that we are freed from keeping the law. I believe there is a law for believers, such as the New Testament epistles give reference to. Look up the positive references to law in the NT in any concordance.

There are just so many people who, from time to time, explain their particular beliefs about honoring the "Sabbath" day. Yet most of the time, they don't actually explain the requirements. I understand that some might believe in honoring the day -- but how? This is usually lost in translation, as the focus seems to turn to whether or not we are still bound to fulfilling at least some of the Law.

I have a feeling that we agree much more than we disagree. I don't have a problem with anyone who wants to remember the Sabbath (especially, the ORIGINAL work that was accomplished by the 7th day). However, I sort of feel perplexed when I hear the need to honor the day...without anyone saying just what that actually entails.

If I were to feel legalistically bound to remember the Sabbath day, it would simply be to remember it and not to work that actually was part of my profession. Period. In this sense, I fulfill the commandment (and have for most of my life...without even knowing it). I think that much of the additional rules for living are simply things that we are no longer bound to. Of course, there is debate over whether or not we are even bound to the command regarding the Sabbath in the first place. My view is that EVERY day is a Sabbath for God's people.

I appreciate hearing your personal views and feelings on the Sabbath, chris. I apologize for not having more to say. Your last sentence indicating that every day is a Sabbath seems to be what you are convinced of and fulfills the requirements for you in light of Romans 14. But as you said in your closing comments, I feel that we agree on much more than we disagree on. Perhaps our only difference would be on whether the 7th day is the same day or not, and since that issue will keep neither of us out of heaven, I think we have reached quite an agreeable conclusion for now. :-)

CJaKfOrEsT wrote:

Old_Joe wrote:

BlazedbyGod wrote:

PS: You didn't answer my question about me not being a Christain according to your record?

It's your own testimony. If you believe “there was not anything in the 10 commandments that Christ had to fulfil”, then though your profession may be as high as the rich young ruler you simply are not a Christian. You might not believe this now, but eventually your fear will come upon you as an overwhelming flood.

Okay guys, I'm not a moderator around here, but I'm sure none that are would mind my attempt at "peace-making" here, so we can stop the pages of excessive quotations, and potentially restore unity.

BlazedbyGod:

[b]Are you saying that you actually "[b]keep[/b] all the Commandments", in the sense that you have a 100% hit rate, or are you saying that no Commandment should be ignored in our obedience[/b]?

.

I am saying that no commandment (of the 10 Commandments) should be ignored in/by our obedience. THat as Paul said, we should ESTABLISH the law by faith in Christ through his Spirit to be obedient unto all 10 Commandments-even as Christ was. I am saying that Paul said God wrote the 10 Commandments on our hearts by the Spirit.

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, [/b]I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people[/b].

2 Cor 3:3Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, [b]but in fleshy tables of the heart[/b]

I am not claiming sinless perfection, or 100% obedience-

Old_Joe wrote:

BlazedbyGod wrote:
I am saying that no commandment (of the 10 Commandments) should be ignored in/by our obedience.

I am in agreement with that.

BlazedbyGod wrote:

THat as Paul said, we should ESTABLISH the law by faith in Christ through his Spirit to be obedient unto all 10 Commandments-even as Christ was. I am saying that Paul said God wrote the 10 Commandments on our hearts by the Spirit.

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, [/b]I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people[/b].

2 Cor 3:3Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, [b]but in fleshy tables of the heart[/b]

I am not claiming sinless perfection, or 100% obedience-

If you do not have the 100% sinless perfection required of the commandments, then Christ has to have fulfilled those commandments on your behalf. If He hasn't then you cannot be a Christian. It is the commemoration of that fulfillment that a Christian recognizes on the first day.

Here's what the Lord's Day is, and why.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/6528/fund77.htm

Old Joe

I have concluded that we are using two different definitions or understandings of the word "fulfil" and the statement" Christ fulfiled the law"-most people add the words " for US" at the end of that statement-but that is not found in scripture. Christ only said that he came not to destroy the law, but to fulfil-he did not add the words " for you, so that you do not have to obey the commandments of God"-( I am not saying you are saying that) I am saying that is general impression that people are trying to make when they make that statement-which is what was causing the confusion between you and I.

Pertaining to the Lord's day, the first day of the week is NOT the Lord's day. Yes, Christ said is also is the Lord of the sabbath, but Jesus never authorized, nor did anything that his Father did not show to him or speak to him to do-and Christ did not have authority from the Father to change the sabbath to the first day of the week.

Christ came to do the "will of the Father"-not his own will.

What is interesting to note about the phrase "first day of the week"-is the Greek word for "week" in this verse is actually "sabbath"

Thus it really reads, "first day of the sabbath"-strange, but this is the greek word:
[url=http://classicbst.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4521&version=kjv]"first day of the WEEK"(sabbath)[/url] (John 20:1,19)

Where in scripture do you see that the commandments require 100% perfection? It is not the commandments that require perfection, but rather God himself that requires perfection through holiness and sanctification of spirit.

Let me say this about the Lord's day-the Lord's day, can easily from scripture, be understood, as to what day it actually is, by looking at these scriptures:

Exodus 12:11 And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the [b]LORD'S passover[/b].....14 [b]And THIS DAY shall be unto you for a memorial[/b]; and ye shall keep it a feast to the LORD throughout your generations; [b]ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance FOR EVER[/b].

THE BIG CLUE:
Lev 23:5 [b]In the fourteenth day[/b] of the first month at even is the [b]LORD'S passover;[/b]

1 Cor 11:20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the [b]Lord's supper[/b].

1 Cor 10:21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the [b]Lord's table[/b], and of the table of devils

Compare all those verses above with Rev 1:9-10 I was in the Spirit on the [b]Lord's day[/b], and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

You can clearly see, beyond reasonable doubt, from the evidence of: the LORD's passover, the Lord's supper, the Lord's table-you can clearly see that the Lord's day is Nisan 14, the same day that God brought the children of Israel out of Egypt, the Lord's passover, and the very same day that Christ our Lord died on.

Jesus is the LORD, and Nisan 14 has since the days of the children of Israel being bondage-been a special day/time/week to him-to the very point that that is the same day that he died.

And as far as all the New Testament reference to the early Church meeting and "breaking bread" on the FIRST day of the week, here is where that comes from: (continue from Exodus 12:15 Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; [b]even the first day[/b] ye shall put away leaven out of your houses: for whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel. 16[/b]And in the *first day there shall be an holy convocation[/b], and in the seventh day there shall be an holy convocation(gathering,assembly) to you; no manner of work shall be done in them, [b]save that which every man *MUST EAT[/b], that only may be done of you.17And ye shall observe the feast of unleavened bread; for in this selfsame day have I brought your armies out of the land of Egypt: [b]therefore shall ye observe THIS DAY in your generations by an ordinance FOR EVER[/b].

(*Acts 20:6 7 And upon the [b]first day of the week[/b], when the disciples [b]CAME TOGETHER TO BREAK BREAD[/b])

I really hope you understand what I am saying by this. John was exiled, all away from the church DURING THE TIME OF PASSOVER (when the Church would have been coming together) yet John couldn't be there, because he was exiled....so what happened, the LORD himself came to fellowship with John on "HIS DAY"-

Why did Jesus do this I speculate; remember what happend before at a previous passover/supper gathering with Jesus and John:

John 13: 23 Now there was [b]leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved[/b]. (Was not this disciple, John the chosen writer of Revelations-whom Jesus loved?)

The LORD's supper/passover was to be eaten on the Lord's day (Nisan 14), is not this the day they were told to celebrate/commemorate the deliverenance from Egypt in the Old Testament, and would not this be the same day the New Testament Church would have had communion/the Lord's supper/passover since this was in fact the day that their Lord died onbeing as though the early Church/disciples were all jewish-also in commemoration of day that the children of Israel were delivered. Weren't they told to remember this day with the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord and ordinance FOR EVER.

I am not claiming to be no authority on this subject matter, but this clearly makes scriptural sense to me:

The LORD's passover, the Lord's supper, the Lord's table-------the Lord's day all point to Nisan 14, the deliverance from Egypt and the day the Lamb of God was slain. AND the day he told us to remember him on by:

Luke 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: [b]THIS do in remembrance of me[/b] (this was on Nisan 14)

The Lord's day, is indeed that-the Lord's day-Nisan 14, not Sunday, not the first day of the week (unless Nisan 14 falls on that day), not the 7th day sabbath.

The Lord's day is Nisan 14, the day of his death.
Saturday is the 7th day, the sabbath day.
Sunday is the first day of the week

Hi Koheleth...

Hello brother! Thank you for your comments. I think that this will probably be my last set of comments in this thread, as I think that it has been exhausted anyway. Besides, like you, I feel that we agree far more than we disagree.

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
"There were commands in regard to adultery, simply in the sense of creation itself. God made one woman for one man, and that a man shall leave his mother and be united with his wife (not wives)."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There were commands in regard to the Sabbath, simply in the sense of creation itself. God sanctified and blessed one day in seven and rested on that day.

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
"Rather, there was a law written in our hearts -- a gentle voice of the Holy Spirit that leads us to know right from wrong."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But how is this law of the heart defined? There are fine Bible-believing Christians who would say that this law includes the Sabbath. Many have acknowledged that nine of the ten commandments are moral standards. Then there are those who say that actually the "law written in our hearts" and the "gentle voice of the Holy Spirit" indicates the Sabbath. Who determines whether the Ten Commandments stand as a unit as moral law, as eternal decrees?

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
"Did Jesus fulfill the Law? Are we presently bound to it?"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Of course Jesus fulfilled all the law. The moral requirements, the prophecies, and the types. For the second question, our beloved brother the apostle John says that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. [u]Therefore, in order to have eternal life we are bound to the law.[/u] If we break that moral law, we will not enter into eternal life.

It seems to me that the Law that we are governed by is simply to love the Lord our God with all of our heart, mind, soul and strength...and to love our neighbor as ourselves. Jesus said that if we do this, we will live (eternally). The question, however, is whether we must fulfill any sort of regulation regarding the "Sabbath" rest (that is, to take a specific day of the week [Saturday? Sunday?] and refrain from work and concentrate upon the finished work of God). It is my opinion, as I stated earlier, that believers fulfill the essence of this requirement by remembering the things of God DAILY, but I also acknowledge that is good to take a day off from work (in which we will still be remembering the completed work of God).

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
"I just don't believe (from understanding God's sacrifice) how we can be bound to fulfillment of the Law."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I suppose it is all a matter of definitions and perspective, but the Scripture does teach that believers are to fulfill the law, as well as to fulfill many other things Christ came and died and rose again for. Paul speaks of fulfilling the sufferings of Christ, etc. This is the heritage of the saints.

There seem to be different parts of the Law, just as there are different parts of Scripture (law, historical, poetic, prophets). And so, those different portions of the law have changed under Christ. There is no more temple (or tabernacle) in Jerusalem. Some parts of the Law of Moses are gone forever. Some parts still apply fully. And some parts have a different application. For my own position, I would not say that we are freed from keeping the law. I believe there is a law for believers, such as the New Testament epistles give reference to. Look up the positive references to law in the NT in any concordance.

I appreciate hearing your personal views and feelings on the Sabbath, chris. I apologize for not having more to say. Your last sentence indicating that every day is a Sabbath seems to be what you are convinced of and fulfills the requirements for you in light of Romans 14. But as you said in your closing comments, I feel that we agree on much more than we disagree on. Perhaps our only difference would be on whether the 7th day is the same day or not, and since that issue will keep neither of us out of heaven, I think we have reached quite an agreeable conclusion for now.

:-)

I think that this is a misconception. God did not need to rest following Creation -- because He does not grow tired or weary. The word "rest" simply means that God "ceased" from creating...because His work was finished. Thus, the Lord sanctified the day...so that it would be remembered that He had completed His work.

Chris, I never indicated that God had to rest from his labours because he got tired. IF you will read my original post you will see that. He rested from any creative activity. So if God needed to do it, are us puny humans more Godlike that we do not need a rest as well? I don't think so! Actually, some creative work is restful!

But is this what the Lord meant? Jesus explained that it would be acceptable for a person to rescue his animal from a pit on the Sabbath -- because it was lawful to do GOOD on that day. I suppose that any of us would take our spouse or child to the hospital in case of an emergency on a Saturday and/or Sunday. Would this be causing a doctor to sin? Jesus healed the sick on the Sabbath and was accused of "working" on that day. His response? It was lawful to do good. He also taught on the Sabbath (as did the apostles). While they did not earn a living from this, it was still work (or, at least, one might assume it is). Jesus defended his disciples who picked grain on the Sabbath -- which could be considered farming on a much smaller scale.

So just what kind of work do you suppose is prohibited on a Sabbath

Chris, I am confused about your questions! Really! Are you that ignorant? Come on! I know of no Christian who observes the LORD's day by [i][b]refraining from creative work [/b][/i] that will not pull the ox out of the ditch, or assist any who is injured or will not render any benevolent help to any in need and this includes working as a nurse, or a fireman, or an EMT. Read my original posts on this subject.

BTW, you want to know how one should conduct himself or herself on this day? What would happen if you were to refrain from unnecessary physical or mental work on this day IN HONOR of your creator? Would you do that for HIM? This is what 'sabbath keeping' is all about!

Blessings,
ginnyrose

Acts 20: 6 And we sailed away from Philippi after the [b]days of unleavened bread[/b], and came unto them to Troas in five days; where we abode seven days.7And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight

1 Cor 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even [b]Christ our passover[/b] is sacrificed for us:

In the Old T, a animal lamb was their passover, in the New T, Christ the Lamb of God is our passover-but that doesn't mean we do not celebrate the Passover/Communion/The Lord's supper.

Did Christ fulfil firstfruits? Yes, he in fact did, but did that mean that the New Testament Church DIDN'T celebrate Pentecost-no, because they did infact celebrate Pentecost.

Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

Was this after Christ ascenion and resurrection-YES

Acts 20:16 For Paul had determined to sail by Ephesus, because he would not spend the time in Asia: for he hasted, if it were possible for him, to be at Jerusalem the day of Pentecost.

Was this after Christ ascenscion and resurrection-Yes

1 Cor 16:8 But I will tarry at Ephesus until Pentecost

Fulfilled does not mean "done away with"-as Jesus clearly stated that not one jot or title shall in NO WISE pass from the law till "ALL" be fulfiled (not just the fulfilment of the law, but also of the prophets and psalms concerning Christ)Why can't you understand that?

Christ also fulfilled our obedience unto God-does that mean that we do not have to be obedient. No

As I have posted before:

Rev 14:12Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, AND the faith of Jesus.

BTW: The first Christians were Jews

Old_Joe wrote:

BlazedbyGod wrote:
Acts 20: 6 And we sailed away from Philippi after the [b]days of unleavened bread[/b], and came unto them to Troas in five days; where we abode seven days.7And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight

1 Cor 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even [b]Christ our passover[/b] is sacrificed for us:

In the Old T, a animal lamb was their passover, in the New T, Christ the Lamb of God is our passover-but that doesn't mean we do not celebrate the Passover/Communion/The Lord's supper.

Did Christ fulfil firstfruits? Yes, he in fact did, but did that mean that the New Testament Church DIDN'T celebrate Pentecost-no, because they did infact celebrate Pentecost.

Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

Was this after Christ ascenion and resurrection-YES

Acts 20:16 For Paul had determined to sail by Ephesus, because he would not spend the time in Asia: for he hasted, if it were possible for him, to be at Jerusalem the day of Pentecost.

Was this after Christ ascenscion and resurrection-Yes

1 Cor 16:8 But I will tarry at Ephesus until Pentecost

Fulfilled does not mean "done away with"-as Jesus clearly stated that not one jot or title shall in NO WISE pass from the law till "ALL" be fulfiled (not just the fulfilment of the law, but also of the prophets and psalms concerning Christ)Why can't you understand that?

Christ also fulfilled our obedience unto God-does that mean that we do not have to be obedient. No

As I have posted before:

Rev 14:12Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, AND the faith of Jesus.

BTW: The first Christians were Jews

Do you personally celebrate the Days of Unleavened Bread and the Passover as prescribed in the OT?

BTW: You forgot the last part:
"The first Christians were Jews that left Judaism."

Old Joe

Apparently, you do not understand the scriptural definition of "fulfil"?

I will answer your question like this: Do you take the Lord's supper Old Joe? or communion if you prefer that term?

Was Pentecost celebrated after Christ's ascension and resurrection?

Hi ginnyrose...

Chris, I never indicated that God had to rest from his labours because he got tired. IF you will read my original post you will see that. He rested from any creative activity. So if God needed to do it, are us puny humans more Godlike that we do not need a rest as well? I don't think so! Actually, some creative work is restful!

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
"So just what kind of work do you suppose is prohibited on a Sabbath?"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Chris, I am confused about your questions! Really! Are you that ignorant? Come on! I know of no Christian who observes the LORD's day by refraining from creative work that will not pull the ox out of the ditch, or assist any who is injured or will not render any benevolent help to any in need and this includes working as a nurse, or a fireman, or an EMT. Read my original posts on this subject.

I am perplexed by a discussion that deviates from a simple question about who supposedly "believe in the 7th day Sabbath and keeps it holy" (as if to imply that people who don't believe in being bound to such a day are not actually keeping it "holy") into a very long, divisive thread where posters neglect to say what they actually believe is required of that day in the first place! We know that some feel we should not work on that day...but should remember the day when God was finished with creation. That's it? Nothing more? Yet some have gone as far as to make lists of what is acceptable or not. If you google the word "Sabbath requirements," you will find a lot of websites that include such lists (from "Christian" websites, no less).

I have no problem with a brother or sister who feels the need to keep the "sabbath" as prescribed by the Ten Commandments. I've read of individuals, like Olympian and missionary Eric Liddle, who refused to even run on such a day (which was NOT a profession). I've met Messianic believers who refuse to prepare meals, make their bed, or wash the dishes on the day that they refer to as the "sabbath." I've seen individuals who literally will use the day to be, well, inactive (for lack of a better word) mentally, physically, and even in regard to hygiene!

This entire discussion, as I have tried to say earlier, boils down to Romans 14 and Colossians 2. I don't have a problem with someone who thinks that we are still bound to the Law of the Old Covenant. Yet why is it that they can have a problem with those of us who feel that we are free from that Law? Yes, the idea of rules regarding the Sabbath predates the Ten Commandments by four chapters (Exodus 16 versus Exodus 20). Yet the concept of circumcision predates it too. There is nothing wrong with circumcision (and there is probably something very right about it). Yet we already know what the Scriptures say in regard to those who would enforce circumcision upon everyone.

Sister, I meant no offense with your comments. Only I simply wanted to clarify that God needed no rest (as in physical or mental relaxation). He simply rested (meaning He ceased or completed, like a lawyer who "rests" or "finished" his case). I think that only good can come from taking a day off of work once a week. Thankfully, I take two days off. Yet everyday of my life is spent in rememberance of the finished work of God -- both as the Creator of the universe...and as His completion of His plan for salvation on the cross. I am always remembering...always pondering...always thankful for His finished work. In my view, the essence of the "sabbath" (to remember the original finished and completed work) is fulfilled everyday by real believers. It is nice to take a day off of work, but we remember it even while we work.

:-)

"[b]This entire discussion, as I have tried to say earlier, boils down to Romans 14 and Colossians 2".[/b]

Chris, Col 2:13-18 is in ference to Ezek 45:17 specifically, not the 7th day sabbath of the 10 Commandments. I will show you this by comparison of verses:

Ezek 45:17And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, [b]and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths[/b], in all solemnities of the house of Israel: [b]he shall prepare the sin offering[/b], and the meat offering,
and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, [b]to make reconciliation for the house of Israel[/b].

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 [b]Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days[/b]: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ

"..he shall prepare the sin offering..." this is the reason, when referring to this ceremonial sabbath,Paul says let no one judge you-because at that point Christ had came and been the sin offering and atoned for sin, and reconcilled the house of Israel- However, the sabbath in this verse is not the 7th day weekly sabbath of Gen 2 and the 10 Commandments.

Similar language is used by Christ in speaking of himself: "My flesh is [b]meat[/b] (brosis) indeed, and my blood is [b]drink[/b] (posis) indeed" (John 6:55), the Greek words being identical to those used by Paul used in Col 2:16. Is Christ not claiming to be the "prince" of Ezekiel's vision and his offering of himself as the fulfillment of the Old Testament sacrifices?

I also mentioned this in the Zac Poonen thread:
PS: Another thing, when Col 2:13-18 is read correctly, specifically verse 18, you see Paul says : "...16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which "[b]ARE[/b]"(not were) a shadow of things [b]TO COME[/b](not already came); but the body is of Christ.

"ARE" is present tense, if they were done away as people suppose this to mean-then he would have said " which WERE..."

"...THINGS (plural, more than one) TO COME.."-this cannot be referring to Jesus the Christ, because Christ is a, 1 person, not "thingS", also he said of these "things"-they ARE TO COME, not have ALREADY CAME-which Christ has ALREADY CAME the first time.

So by that logic, you would have to make this mean, for those that say this refers to Christ himself, that now, this refers to Christ's second coming-since he has already come the first time.

So what are these "things(plural) TO COME

Old_Joe wrote:

I do partake of the Lord's supper in remembrance of Christ my Passover Lamb. As you will notice in 1 Cor 11, it is a markedly different supper than either the Passover or the Feast of Unleavened Bread. I have actually been to a Passover Feast and the comparison between it and the Lord's supper is night and day.

I answer your questions very fair and direct every time yet you always balk at answering any questions I have had for you. If what you stood for were to truly pass the test, you should be proclaiming your answers from the rooftops. Here is another chance, proclaim away!

Do you celebrate the Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread as prescribed in the OT? Why or why not?

Old Joe

Yes, I do celebrate Christ as my passover, and yes I do celebrate the Lord's supper on the Lord's day.

Now, where you get this notion of me observing it "AS" prescribed in the Old T" I an bit sure where you get that from.

PS: The Holy Ghost was purposefully poured out on the day of Pentecost by God-there was no coincidence, or happenstance-and I think I ought to mention, this was also the same day that God gave the 10 Commandments to the Children of Israel.

Please do tell me though, the major difference between the Passover and the Lord's supper as you said the difference is "night and day"? )though I am not talking about passover from the jewish perspective of those who do not believe in Christ)

Hi Blazed...

Chris, Col 2:13-18 is in ference to Ezek 45:17 specifically, not the 7th day sabbath of the 10 Commandments.

I don't see the name "Ezekiel" in either of these passages at all. In fact, it seems to be mentioning the sabbath.

BlazedbyGod wrote:

I have concluded that we are using two different definitions or understandings of the word "fulfil" and the statement" Christ fulfilled the law"-most people add the words " for US" at the end of that statement-but that is not found in scripture. Christ only said that he came not to destroy the law, but to fulfil-he did not add the words " for you, so that you do not have to obey the commandments of God"-( I am not saying you are saying that) I am saying that is general impression that people are trying to make when they make that statement-which is what was causing the confusion between you and I.

Okay, so "most people" take fulfill to mean that, but the question is, how do you take it?

I read fulfill to mean that Christ perfectly met the obligations set out in the Commandments. Herein is the reason for the questions I had asked. I get the impression that Old_Joe feels that you think that salvation comes is through obeying the Law, and that something more than Christ is needed. Personally I don't see that, but the contrary. For example:

Joe, you mean to tell me, that a [b]Spirit filled believer, walking in the Spirit[/b], living in the Spirit cannot obey the 10 Commandments? Is not [b]Christ INSIDE of his believers to ENABLE them[/b] to keep God's 10 Commandments as he did when he was on earth in the flesh?

This is where many who focus on "holiness" conflict with those who focus on "grace". Is it all about obedience, or is it about mercy? This isn't simplified apparently contradictory statements like:

[b]Matthew 5:48[/b] Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
[b]Luke 6:36[/b] Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

What these people miss (which incidentally was what the Israelites missed), was that God has always placed greater emphasis on mercy. Consider the opening of the Book of Leviticus:

[b]1[/b] And the LORD called unto Moses, and spake unto him out of the tabernacle of the congregation, saying,
[b]2[/b] Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the LORD, [i]ye[/i] shall bring your offering of the cattle, [i]even[/i] of the herd, and of the flock.
[b]Leviticus 1:1-2[/b]

First of all, Christ fulfilled the Law. He didn't have to, in the sense that he was obliged, or in the sense that he had no choice, or in the sense that the Law was rendered irrelevant. He fulfilled the Law, in that He permanently met the obligation required [b]of us[/b], that the "soul that sinneth, it shall die". God had hinted at it all through Scripture, most famously in Hosea 6:6 "For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings."

Don't forget the first half of the verse that said that Christ came to fulfill the Law, "[b]Think not that I am come to destroy the law[/b], or the prophets: [b]I am not come to destroy[/b], but to fulfil." (Matthew 5:17) I cannot grasp a logic that says that nine of the Commandments which were both uttered out of the mouth of God, directly to Israel, and scribed by His own finger, must be obeyed (honestly, your not suggesting that we ignore the Commandment "Thou shalt not kill"), but then we can ignore one, or at best, alter it based on inconclusive evidence.

The issues is not, and has never been, one of salvation by keeping Commandments, except by keeping the Commandment to come to the propitiatory place when we violate them.

Old_Joe, may I suggest that it is a dangerous course to take, to suggest that someone is apostate, based on a misunderstanding over the word "fulfill", without considering the other words that are spoken. However, in your defense, BlazedbyGod could have been clearer in answering your question regarding what he means by "fulfilled".

In summary, we have been presented with an impossible standard, told that it is easy to obey, and then been given both the means of obedience, and the mercy required when we fail. There is no need to water it down, because God has made a way to make the impossible possible.

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Hi Blazed...

Chris, Col 2:13-18 is in ference to Ezek 45:17 specifically, not the 7th day sabbath of the 10 Commandments.

Wouldn't it be far more helpful to this discussion if you would say that this is what you [i]think[/i] that these verses refer to?

I don't see the name "Ezekiel" in either of these passages at all. In fact, it seems to be mentioning the sabbath.

I am not quite sure what you mean by " you don't see tne name Ezekiel in either one of those passages"-I didn't say Paul was talking about "Ezekiel" as in the man Ezekiel, I was using the verses to compare with one another, how the exact phrase Paul seemingly takes from Ezek 45:17, especially since Paul is a man whou would have been familiar with the Old Testeament.

Just like the many Old Testament scriptures that point to Jesus, in the Old Testament verses themselves you do not actually see the name " Jesus Christ" in the various prophecies, but that of course doesn't mean they aren't or weren't still referring to him, as we by the Spirit know they were.

I am saying that it is possible that in Col 2:13-18 that Paul had Ezekiel 45:17 in mind when penning it to paper-because if you read Ezek 45:17 you can see that it is a also a future prophecy of Christ to come and reconcile the house of Israel and atone for sin by being the sin offering.

Ezekiel 45:17 And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, [b]and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths[/b], in all solemnities of the house of Israel: [b]he shall prepare the sin offering[/b], and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, [b]and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel[/b].

Christ is the Prince (Son of the King) which was the sin offering, meat offering ( "my body is indeed MEAT..") drink offering, ("my blood is indeed DRINK..") the peace offercing (he gives us peace with God) and he of course is the One who reconcilled us unto God. Now compare Ezek 45:17 with this to Col 2:

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, [b]hath he quickened together with him[/b], having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and [b]took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross[/b]; 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, [b]triumphing over them[/b] in it.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in [b]meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days[/b]

Something else that I will mention:

"...blotting out the HANDWRITTEN ORDINANCES THAT WAS AGAINST US..."

In Scripture there are the 10 Commandments,law of Moses, laws, statues,precepts, judgements, and ordinances-in Col 2, Paul is not referring to the 10 Commandments because he clearly says " handwritten ORDINANCES (not Commandments) " he also adds, " that was AGAINST US"-there is no scripture, at least as far as I am familiar with, that says God gave the 10 Commandments to be "AGAINST" the Children of Israel-however, scripture does say that the book of the law was written as a testimony AGAINST the Children of Israel.

Deut 31: 17 Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us? 18 And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods. 19 [b]Now therefore write ye this song for you, and teach it the children of Israel: put it in their mouths, that this song may be a witness for me against the children of Israel[/b]. 20 For when I shall have brought them into the land which I sware unto their fathers, that floweth with milk and honey; and they shall have eaten and filled themselves, and waxen fat; then will they turn unto other gods, and serve them, and provoke me, and break my covenant. 21 And it shall come to pass, when many evils and troubles are befallen them, that this song shall testify [b]against them as a witness[/b]; for it shall not be forgotten out of the mouths of their seed: for I know their imagination which they go about, even now, before I have brought them into the land which I sware.

I am just stating whatever sabbaths that Paul has in mind in Col 2:16 cannot be the "the 7th day sabbath" because the 7th day sabbath was made FOR MAN, not "against man(us)" as Paul speaks of in verse 14 " Blotting out that handwritten ordinances that was AGAINIST US"

The 7th day sabbath was a day of rest, and made FOR man, not against him-

Mark 2:27 And he said unto them, The [b]sabbath[/b] was made "[b]FOR[/b]" man, and not man for the sabbath:

Col 2:14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was [b]AGAINST US[/b], which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross......16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the [b]sabbath days[/b]:

Old_Joe wrote:

...sigh....I guess that I just need to take it for granted that you will never answer a question directly.

Funny that, I was feeling the same way about someone else:

Old_Joe wrote:

CJaKfOrEsT wrote:

Old-Joe:

Are you claiming that BlazedbyGod is apostate because you believe that he has made a statement that contradicts orthodoxy, or because you hear in what he is posting that he is sinless?

Follow his beliefs, by his own admission Christ has fulfilled nothing in the Ten Commandments. If Christ has fulfilled nothing of the Ten Commandments for Blazed, then Blazed remains condemned by those same commandments.

CJaKfOrEsT wrote:

May I ask that [b]YOU[/b] answer these questions...

Brother, I have noticed in the years that I have been involved in this forum, that it is easy to get so caught up in the sense of a need to show someone else that they are wrong, that we cease to actually listen to them. To be honest, this was a significant reason for me pulling back from posting as often as I used to.

I had noticed over time that the ones that posted least were often the ones with the most insight. They would stand on the sidelines and watch, without the emotional investment that comes from the debate, only posting when they the Lord leads them, and even then there motives tend to be for the other person, at the expense of themselves.

Sir, I can see that you are a devout man, who sincerely seeks orthodoxy, and expects it from others, and I am not calling that into question. I'm only pointing out that your disagreement seems to be clouding your judgement, demonstrated by your expecting a straight answer from another, when you have failed to do so when specifically asked.

Perhaps you need to take a step back and reread this thread, from the beginning, and see if you still think you are reading BlazedbyGod's posts correctly (speaking from experience here. I have found myself having to make many a retraction after doing this very thing).

Hi Brethren,

Here is something to consider!

Ro 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Romans: Verse by Verse (Newell)
Romans 14:5Verse 5: One man regardeth one day to be above another: another regardeth every day [alike]. Let each man be fully assured in his own mind. Here Paul takes up the "day question,"--a live one to this hour! You instantly say. Is not the Lord's Day above others? No, not in itself, as a "holy" day, in the sense that the Sabbath was and will be to Israel. Paul shows this plainly in his exhortation of Col 2:16: "Let no man judge you . . . in respect of . . . a sabbath day." For, says he, you died with Christ unto earthly religious things; and must not now "observe" them. This passage shows that the first day of the week is not the "sabbath" at all. All those days of Judaism were "shadows." "But the body is Christ's." But you say, I am not a Jew; the day has been changed. To which I answer, you speak as might a Jew; for the day has not been "changed." There is but one weekly Sabbath known in Scripture and that is the seventh day. It will even be observed again weekly, in the land of Israel, after "the six working days," of every week in the coming age, the Millennium (Eze 46:1,3-4). Because men have been wrongly taught or influenced, whether by Judaizing believers in the early Christian centuries, or alas, by Reformers and Puritans since the Reformation, most Christians regard the first day of the week as "the weekly Sabbath," a "holy day,"--which entirely defeats its proper Scripture use. It substitutes a stern legal must for grace's sweet word, privilege. "The so-called Puritan teaching here has been rightly called 'an adulterous theology'; because it sought to marry believers to both husbands, to the Law and to Christ" (Scofield).

Howbeit, let us remain in the spirit of this fifth verse, which is one of love: Another regardeth every day (alike). The weak brother, still influenced in his conscience by legal considerations, held the first day of the week(1) as peculiar and sacred in itself. He invested it with the restrictions of a Jewish sabbath, insead of hailing it with fresh joy each week as an opportunity for remembering, with other Christians, his Lord; and our place in the new creation with Him.

Now, the strong believer regarded every day alike. Each day alike was an opportunity for him to be filled with the Spirit, and in everything by word or deed giving thanks unto God the Father through Him. No day, thus, was holy in itself, above another! Privilege there was on the Lord's Day, but no bondage. Paul's instruction is, Let each man be fully assured in his own mind. Moses never could have said a thing like that! There is a sense in which these words reveal our liberty in Christ as does no other single passage. The Law allowed no liberty of action in such things: its very spirit and essence was bondage to a letter. Conscience was judged beforehand by the letter of the Law; conduct was prescribed. When a man gathered sticks on the Sabbath, he was stoned! Not so, now! Not being under the Law, or the legal principle, but in the Risen Christ, under God's eternal favor, we have entered upon what the Spirit, in Chapter Twelve, calls our "intelligent service." Here is an amazing sphere of holy freedom in which each of us, learning the truth, is treated as a king in the realm of his own mind. Instead of being told what he must or must not do, he is freely exhorted to assure his own mind and heart fully, and walk as Christ's free man.

Read Alford's trenchant note below.(2)

footnotes

1.Paul is evidently not speaking here of "various Jewish feasts and festivals," as some claim. Paul has nothing but the severest reprimands for those who turn to "observing days, and months, and seasons and years" (Ga 4:10), and calls Judaism "weak and beggarly rudiments," now,--like the old idolatry (Ga 4:8-9); and in Col 2:14: "The bond which was contrary to us" having been nailed to the cross, he classes feast days and new moons along with "a sabbath day"; and asks believers not to let themselves be "judged" about them.

With such observances, the Christian had nothing to do. But as to the first day of the week, marked out by the resurrection of our Lord, and His appearings to the disciples, as also by the breaking of bread (Ac 20:7-8), and the Christian's systematic giving (1Co 16:2), the matter was different. The Christians gathered on the first day, they remembered the Lord at His table on that evening, weekly. (I say, "evening," for it was so at the beginning-- Joh 20:19; Ac 20:7). God has indeed graciously so ordered things now, that we have the whole day. Yet look at Russia! And the same godlessness is spreading over the whole earth. Living faith in Christ,--not any kind of bondage, can sustain us.

2."The Apostle decides nothing; leaving every man's own mini to guide him in the point. He classes the observance or non-observance of particular days, with the eating or abstaining from particular meats. In both cases, he is concerned with things which he evidently treats as of absolute indifference in themselves. Now the question is, supposing the Divine obligation of one day in seven to have been recognized by him in any form, could he have thus spoken? The obvious inference from his strain or arguing is, that he knew of no such obligation, but believed all times and days to be, to the Christian strong in faith, ALIKE. I do not see how the passage can be otherwise understood. If any one day ill the week were invested with the sacred character of tlie Sabbath, it would have been wholly impossible for the Apostle to commend or uphold the man who judged all days worthy of equal honour,--who, as in verse 6, paid no regard to the (any) day. He must have visited him with his strongest disapprobation, as violating a command of God. I therefore infer, that sabbatical obligation to keep any day, whether seventh or first, was not recognised in apostolic times. It must be carefully remembered, that this inference does not concern the question of the observance of the Lord's Day as an institution of the Christian Church--analogous to the ancient Sabbath, but not in any way inheriting the Divinely-appointed obligation of the other, or the strict prohibitions by which its sanctity was defended. The reply commonly furnished to these considerations, viz, that the Apostle was speaking here only of JEWISH festivals, and therefore cannot refer to Christian ones, is a quibble of the poorest kind: its assertors themselves distinctly maintaining the obligation of one such Jewish festival on Christians. What I maintain is, that had the Apostle believed as they do, he could not by any possibility have written thus. Besides, in the face of 'every day' the assertion is altogether unfounded." (Alford: New Test., in toe.)

Something else to consider!

Romans: Verse by Verse (Newell)
Romans 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord: and he that eateth, eateth unto the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that doth not eat, unto the Lord he doth not eat, and giveth thanks to God.

7 For none of us liveth to himself, and none dieth

8 to himself. For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; or whether we die, we die unto the Lord; whether therefore we live or die, we are the Lord's.

9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might rule over both the dead and the living.

Verse 6: These verses, of course, contemplate true believers only, those who "give God thanks."

Here we have some regarding the day as holy in itself, Jewish believers especially, not fully delivered from the Law, would have tender consciences about days. But if they knew the Lord, it would be toward the Lord their consciences could be exercised, and they must be considered in love on that account; love would see through their eyes!

Again, there were those with greater knowledge and liberty who "regarded not the day," knowing that every day, for those risen in Christ, is alike: the first day of the week being not a sabbath, but rather the celebration of our Lord's resurrection which delivered us from legal things. Ignatius (martyred about 115 A.D.) said, "Those who were concerned with old things have come to newness of confidence, no longer keeping Sabbaths, but living according to the Lord's Day, on whom our life, as risen again, through Him, depends." And Justin Martyr, (martyred about 168 A.D.) when reproached by Trypho with "giving up the Sabbath," said, "How can we keep the Sabbath, who rest from sin all the days of the week?"

Let those of legal tendencies mark this: that a man may regard not what we regard, and do so "unto the Lord." Then the man who has liberty to eat all things, eats "unto the Lord," and gives God thanks. And again, (let the stronger brother consider) there are those that eat not as "unto the Lord," giving God thanks.

rbanks wrote:
Hi Brethren,

Here is something to consider!

Ro 14:5 [b]One "MAN"[/b] esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Romans: Verse by Verse (Newell)
Romans 14:5Verse 5: One man regardeth one day to be above another: another regardeth every day [alike]. Let each man be fully assured in his own mind. Here Paul takes up the "day question,"--a live one to this hour! You instantly say. Is not the Lord's Day above others? No, not in itself, as a "holy" day, in the sense that the Sabbath was and will be to Israel. Paul shows this plainly in his exhortation of Col 2:16: "Let no man judge you . . . in respect of . . . a sabbath day." For, says he, you died with Christ unto earthly religious things; and must not now "observe" them. This passage shows that the first day of the week is not the "sabbath" at all. All those days of Judaism were "shadows." "But the body is Christ's." But you say, I am not a Jew; the day has been changed. To which I answer, you speak as might a Jew; for the day has not been "changed." There is but one weekly Sabbath known in Scripture and that is the seventh day. It will even be observed again weekly, in the land of Israel, after "the six working days," of every week in the coming age, the Millennium (Eze 46:1,3-4). Because men have been wrongly taught or influenced, whether by Judaizing believers in the early Christian centuries, or alas, by Reformers and Puritans since the Reformation, most Christians regard the first day of the week as "the weekly Sabbath," a "holy day,"--which entirely defeats its proper Scripture use. It substitutes a stern legal must for grace's sweet word, privilege. "The so-called Puritan teaching here has been rightly called 'an adulterous theology'; because it sought to marry believers to both husbands, to the Law and to Christ" (Scofield).

Howbeit, let us remain in the spirit of this fifth verse, which is one of love: Another regardeth every day (alike). The weak brother, still influenced in his conscience by legal considerations, held the first day of the week(1) as peculiar and sacred in itself. He invested it with the restrictions of a Jewish sabbath, insead of hailing it with fresh joy each week as an opportunity for remembering, with other Christians, his Lord; and our place in the new creation with Him.

Now, the strong believer regarded every day alike. Each day alike was an opportunity for him to be filled with the Spirit, and in everything by word or deed giving thanks unto God the Father through Him. No day, thus, was holy in itself, above another! Privilege there was on the Lord's Day, but no bondage. Paul's instruction is, Let each man be fully assured in his own mind. Moses never could have said a thing like that! There is a sense in which these words reveal our liberty in Christ as does no other single passage. The Law allowed no liberty of action in such things: its very spirit and essence was bondage to a letter. Conscience was judged beforehand by the letter of the Law; conduct was prescribed. When a man gathered sticks on the Sabbath, he was stoned! Not so, now! Not being under the Law, or the legal principle, but in the Risen Christ, under God's eternal favor, we have entered upon what the Spirit, in Chapter Twelve, calls our "intelligent service." Here is an amazing sphere of holy freedom in which each of us, learning the truth, is treated as a king in the realm of his own mind. Instead of being told what he must or must not do, he is freely exhorted to assure his own mind and heart fully, and walk as Christ's free man.

Rom 14:5 is about what "MAN" esteems,not about what God esteems. The 7th day sabbath was esteemed by God-Rom 14:5 is not about the Sabbath

Exodus 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

This was "GOD"(not man) telling the Children of Israel to remember and keep the sabbath "DAY"-

Gen 2:3 [b]And "GOD" BLESSED the SEVENTH DAY[/b], and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made

I do not think that Rom 14 pertains to the Sabbath day, because Rom 14 is about what "MEN" esteem of themselves as individuals-but the 7th day sabbath is what "GOD" esteemed. And man has esteemed it from the obedience of "remembering it and keeping it holy" in obedience unto God.

Hi Blazed...

Rom 14:5 is about what "MAN" esteems,not about what God esteems. The 7th day sabbath was esteemed by God-Rom 14:5 is not about the Sabbath

Exodus 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

This was "GOD"(not man) telling the Children of Israel to remember and keep the sabbath "DAY"

[b]Numbers 15:32-36[/b]

32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.

33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.

34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.

35 And the LORD said unto Moses, "[u]The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp[/u]."

36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.

Sister Ginnyrose spoke about the "creative" work of God having been the basis for the restriction of the sabbath. I understand her point (as being the rationale behind the Sabbath), but the question still remains whether or not people are still bound to fulfill the letter of this or any such law. Jesus laid the ax to the root -- [i]lust[/i] and [i]hate[/i] instead of [i]adultery[/i] and [i]murder[/i]. I wonder if the root of the Sabbath was to [i]remember[/i] the finished work of God -- that He is the Author and Finisher of our faith (and, indeed, the entire universe)?

Indeed, God (when the world was under the Old Covenant Law before the sacrifice of Christ) stated many laws -- including the death of anyone for adultery. In Leviticus 20:10, God said, "[i]If a man commits adultery with another man's wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death[/i]." Yet this is contrary to the passage in John 8:1-11 (and the entire message of forgiveness for trespasses) in which Jesus instructed us NOT to return evil for evil.

I think that I have exhausted my thoughts in this thread, and have probably failed to present my views adequately. I just stand very much convinced that the Law has been fulfilled by Christ. From the 7th day of Creation (in Genesis chapter 2) until over a thousand years later as the Israelites wandered in the wilderness following the Red Sea, there just weren't any requirements about the day. We simply know that God "rested" (or "ceased" from creation) by the 7th day...and sanctified the original 7th day. Nothing else. We never read of whether Adam, Abel, Seth, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Israel, Joseph, etc... worked on what might have been counted off as the "sabbath" day. While it is possible, it is just not recorded in Scripture.

It is my view that, when Christ completely fulfilled the Law and gave His life in doing so, we were freed from the requirements of the Law of sin and death (Romans 8:1-2). We now live as the patriarchs -- living for Christ as we know Him and as dictated by the living Word (as written in the New Testament following the resurrection of Christ). There was no sabbath in Heaven...or eternity...because it is a timeless place. The sabbath was an earthly mesasurement. Since we may now approach God's throne of grace, and our hearts are set to heaven, are we required to fulfill the letter or the essence of any such Old Testament requirements? The essence, in my opinion, is to simply remember the entirety of and the finished work of God.

There is little written about the Sabbath in the New Testament following the resurrection of Christ Jesus. In the KJV, there are only 10 verses mentioning the word "sabbath" -- and none about fulfilling requirements for it (found in Acts chapters 1, 13, 15, 16, 17, 18 and Colossians 2). Most of these verses are simply stating that Paul would try to reason with those who met in synagogues on the Sabbath, or, in the case of Colossians, how we aren't bound to it. I suppose that I should simply state my belief (which I have, but convoluted by greater discussion) and leave it at that.

It is my persuasion that Colossians, the final mention of the Sabbath in Scripture, says it all:

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, [u]or of the sabbath days[/u]:
17 [u]Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ[/u].

Chris,

I have been wanting to get back with you about this issue and share a few observations. I have not been avoiding it, but rather been waiting to see if what I want to say will be my thoughts still after a few days. AND I also have been so very busy with harvesting tomatoes and pecans - the trees have produced abundantly this year.

Now to the issue of 'Sabbath keeping' whether it be on Saturday or Sunday....

It has been my observation that when people who are relatively new to the faith, be they from apostate churches or from American intellectualism, there is a strong resistance to the observance of any NT 'ritual' because it simply does not make sense. AND this is nothing new.

Consider Bro. Peter. In John 13 Jesus with his disciples observed the passover and after doing so, "Jesus got up from supper, and laid aside His garments; and taking a towel, He girded Himself. Then He poured water into the basin, and began to wash the disciples' feet and to wipe them with the towel with which He was girded. And so he came to Simon Peter. He said to him, "Lord, do you wash my feet?" Jesus answered and said to him, " What I do you do not realize now, but you shall understand hereafter." Peter said to Him, "Never shall You wash my feet!" Jesus answered him, "If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me." Simon Peter said to Him, "Lord, then wash not only my feet, but also my hands and my head." Jesus said to him, "He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you." (NASB)

What I want you to see here in this passage is Peters' resistance to Jesus washing his feet and his objections: OK, so you want to wash my feet; wash my head and my hands as well!" (My paraphrase.) You see these guys [likely] had clean feet - as I understand the custom a guest's feet were washed soon after being admitted into the house. The timing of this occasion was after supper. So they must have had clean feet and Peter knew it. It made no sense to wash clean feet. Now what is Jesus teaching him? Rather then going there in this discussion, my point is that sometimes the LORD will ask us to do "things in remembrance of Him!" And so it is with keeping a day Holy unto Him. This is what it is all about.

Hope this makes sense. And if it doesn't, make this a matter of prayer. I suggest you talk to the LORD about it and listen to what he may tell you to do. Just because some things make no sense does not mean it isn't sensible, it just means we are still a tad bit ignorant or that some things will never be understood on this side of glory, hence our need to be obedient in spite of it. And this act is called "faith".

This is my understanding of this concept.

Blessings,
ginnyrose