Trouble by some guests

I am very troubled by some guest speakers that we have had at our church and they are coming again. Their names our John Crowder and Chris Dunn.

Here are some links:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5YJPGaH_n0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNdlexU4eT4

I have spoken to our leadership about my concerns and without saying it directly, they think I'm being religious. They said they they would NOT have them again, but they didn't keep their word. My family & I don't go when they come.

Who do you think?

They get people to imitate getting high on drugs & getting drunk. They use terms like "god-ka" instead of vodka and "toking the ghost."

They says it gets you into God's glory zone.

I have recently asked a ministry to take me off of their mailing list because they were promoting John Crowder's materials.

I consider what he is doing to that which the Word says "turning the grace of God into lascivousness." This is about as carnal as is gets, and I don't understand why any pastor would let this man minister in his church if he knows what he stands for.

If the enemy can get Christians to seek after experiences, then he surely can deceive them. The reason why many moves of God have been sidetracked is because Christians have gone after the manifestations, and it became all about what makes me feel good. The presence of God was compared to a drug high, and it was even encouraged by some of the leaders to seek after being drunk in the Spirit.

I have seen that Christians that seek after these experiences are some of the most carnally minded people that you will ever meet, and are not growing spiritually.

I am not against spiritual experiences, and have experienced many manifestations of the Lord's presence, but I do not seek after these things or encourage other Christians to do so.

Mike

They get people to imitate getting high on drugs & getting drunk. They use terms like "god-ka" instead of vodka and "toking the ghost." They says it gets you into God's glory zone.

Not one soul will speak like this on the day of judgment. Not one.

Except perhaps those that are cursing on their way to the lake of fire. No one who speaks like this and does not repent will be permitted to remain in the presence of God for eternity.

I agree with what has been said. State what you believe with love, humility, and clearness and then depart. Yes, get away fast. Remember what God said to Moses and the Israelites? Get away!

Amen and amen to all of your posts brethren. I'm so shocked right now that I don't think there would be words to describe my reaction when I viewed their blasphemous disrespect of my Jesus.

If my unsaved Mom saw them, I have an idea of what she would say. Enough said.

Kathleen

Amen, flee from them with all haste. Do not look back, there is nothing there to see.

Praying for you and all the members of this forum (and you unregistered guests, too). Pray for God to direct your way to His paths.

Kind regards,
white stone

There are many revivals today that are false revivals, false fire.

If my unsaved Mom saw them, I have an idea of what she would say. Enough said.

What a good point. Unbelievers all the time rail and scoff and mock the church. From goofy cartoon characters to talking about God in a way some godless people would never even dare to, the "church" is a shame today. My mother is an unbeliever with no excellent moral record, but she is appalled and full of complaint about what happens in "Christianity". As she says, "that religion of yours" :roll:, even though I make clear that I do not identify with any of those things. To her, this type of junk is what Christianity produces or leads to. Anyone can see this type of shame on Christ everywhere.

I hear my mother's words right this minute: "Those boys need to be smacked in the mouth for talking like that." That is exactly what she would say. She would be offended such people are tolerated. I am not saying that is the right response, of course, just that when the world knows that what is happening is wrong and it is morally offensive even to them, then Satan has gotten his foothold in that place and is probably Lord of the manor.

"turning the grace of God into lascivousness."

That may be the best and only way to address it. Had to go and Google this and it is even worse, not only those that were mentioned but a big banner assault - "Drunken Glory Tour". As hard as it was to keep down the indignation read the proverbial "Controversy" explanation\\defense that seems to always accompany these things ...

What it boils down to inevitably is "We don't care". The clever dismissals of any concern is met with the same as was forwarded to you; "Being religious". It's all very galling and ridiculous. I wonder what might become of all these similar, interconnected aberrations if one day all of a sudden they woke up to the reality that there is no substance to their 'releasing' and 'glory realm' vernacular. They will not hear it because they cannot endure sound doctrine, cannot even take that confrontation without a rise in the defenses.

Everything to excess and extremes, cleverness and dismissal, contorting, force fitting fallacious, imaginative schemes into the bowels of scripture to justify their actions. It is quite pathetic.

[i] Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter![/i] Isa 5:20

This they would deny naturally but practice it nevertheless.

It is as kind as I can be as one who once was both a drunkard and a addict to suppress what I might really launch off on from this absolute idiocy. They are fools of the highest order to make light, make merry, make compressions of those things that are devastating, turn it around so that they are supposedly denouncing it by promoting it as equivalent to some ecstatic, sought after experience ...

Brother, you stand your ground and if they will not hear you, shake off the dust ...

I have some good news.

My church has cancelled and they are NOT coming.

Thank you for all of you who prayed for us.

LoveGodsWay2

"If the enemy can get Christians to seek after experiences, then he surely can deceive them. The reason why many moves of God have been sidetracked is because Christians have gone after the manifestations, and it became all about what makes me feel good. The presence of God was compared to a drug high, and it was even encouraged by some of the leaders to seek after being drunk in the Spirit.

I have seen that Christians that seek after these experiences are some of the most carnally minded people that you will ever meet, and are not growing spiritually."

Wow you can actually read people's heart like that?

I have been in those meetings you speak evil of and I have to admit they weren't perfect,but the anointing and presence of God was so intense I know I will never forget it.

I was there,I saw some wrong things. They like you didn't know what to do.
And you weren't there to show them what to do.
I sincerely hope if another revival comes you can show up to tell the leadership exactly who is manifesting purely and those that manifest with incorrect motives.

You don't and I dont know what they seek.
They say they seek God and you say they are liars.
I am sure this was said of the upper room crowd too.

"they just met in the upper room to get those flame things and get that reeling around drunk feeling."

I saw the 2 threads locked criticising the SI revival.

Kinda stings dont it?

psalm1,

I am sorry, but I don't understand your last entry in this thread.

Thanks,

LoveGodWays2

I have been in those meetings you speak evil of

David, can you clarify? Are you talking about John Crowder and Benjamin Dunn meetings?

Wow you can actually read people's heart like that?

These are men who call themselves "brothers"; according to the Apostle Paul, it is our duty to judge those who are "within" our ranks (I Cor. 5:12), and the Lord judges those who are "without". It is our saintly duty to do this in a spirit of grace, this I certainly agree with. I am only able to watch these videos for about 30 seconds before my spirit is too grieved to continue. Is this the normal experience surrounding genuine Christian ministry?

I have been in those meetings you speak evil of and I have to admit they weren't perfect,but the anointing and presence of God was so intense I know I will never forget it.

Abraham's dialogue with God;
" 23And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?

24Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?

25That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

26And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.

27And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the LORD, which am but dust and ashes:

28Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it.

29And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty's sake.

30And he said unto him, Oh let not the LORD be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there.

31And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the LORD: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake.

32And he said, Oh let not the LORD be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.

33And the LORD went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place."

I wonder if modern day Abraham would pray for revival?

Peradventure Lord if thou find 50 things incorrect,will thou still come in power to revive?
"yes I will"

Peradventure if thou find 100 things wrong will thou still descend on your church in power?

"yes I will'

peradventure if one man manifest for show in the flesh will thou still come in power?

Yes I will"

Peradventure if 50 manifest in the flesh ,will thou still come in power?
"yes"
Peradventure if 100 manifest wrong will thou still come and revive?

"yes I will"

Peradventure if 101 manifest.........

"Abe who you listning to?"

My simple answer is how do you know it was God you were "feeling"; is anointing verified by visceral sensations?

Jesus said ;

"M8For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

9Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?

10Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?

11If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him? "

Jesus said;
my sheep hear my voice

I am of the household of God almighty God is my father
I know his voice.

See the scripure above and also see the devil can not answer my prayer.

Paul west;
"Actually, yes, you can. It is out of the heart that the mouth speaketh. Judging from the antics of these men, the blasphemy, the colossal embarassment they project on the world's view of Christianity with the unwholesome speech they exhibit - yes, we can know their heart."

Well you misread what I said (kinda funny since you can see everybody's heart)
I said Christians,not leaders.
also kinda funny you use elementary. I learned many years ago not to try and judge someone's heart.

You are not God and need to leave thee heart judging to him
Go back and look at the post again and stop trying to look at everybody's heart

[b]Let us now look at what the bible says about Jehovah-juanna, God-ka and toking the Ghost.[/b]

Leviticus 22:31-33: 31 “Therefore you shall keep My commandments, and perform them: I am the LORD. 32 You shall not profane My holy name, but I will be hallowed among the children of Israel. I am the LORD who sanctifies you, 33 who brought you out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: I am the LORD.”

1 Chronicles 16:9-11: 9 Sing to Him, sing psalms to Him; Talk of all His wondrous works! 10 Glory in His holy name; Let the hearts of those rejoice who seek the LORD! 11 Seek the LORD and His strength; Seek His face evermore!

Psalm 30:4 Sing praise to the LORD, you saints of His, And give thanks at the remembrance of His holy name.

Psalm 33:21 For our heart shall rejoice in Him, Because we have trusted in His holy name.

Psalm 99:3 Let them praise Your great and awesome name—He is holy.

Psalm 103:1 Bless the LORD, O my soul; And all that is within me, bless His holy name!

Psalm 105:3 Glory in His holy name; Let the hearts of those rejoice who seek the LORD!

Psalm 145:21 My mouth shall speak the praise of the LORD, And all flesh shall bless His holy name, Forever and ever.

Isaiah 29:23 But when he sees his children,
The work of My hands, in his midst,
They will hallow My name,
And hallow the Holy One of Jacob,
And fear the God of Israel.

Isaiah 57:15 For thus says the High and Lofty One
Who inhabits eternity, whose name is Holy:
“ I dwell in the high and holy place,
With him who has a contrite and humble spirit,
To revive the spirit of the humble,
And to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

Ezekiel 20:39 “As for you, O house of Israel,” thus says the Lord GOD: “Go, serve every one of you his idols—and hereafter—if you will not obey Me; but profane My holy name no more with your gifts and your idols.

Ezekiel 36:21 But I had concern for My holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the nations wherever they went.

Luke 1:48-50 48 For He has regarded the lowly state of His maidservant;
For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed.
49 For He who is mighty has done great things for me,
And holy is His name.
50 And His mercy is on those who fear Him
From generation to generation.

Acts 4:29-31 29 Now, Lord, look on their threats, and grant to Your servants that with all boldness they may speak Your word, 30 by stretching out Your hand to heal, and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Your holy Servant Jesus.”
31 And when they had prayed, the place where they were assembled together was shaken; and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and they spoke the word of God with boldness.

Revelation 15:3-4: 3 They sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying:
“ Great and marvelous are Your works,
Lord God Almighty!
Just and true are Your ways,
O King of the saints!]
4 Who shall not fear You, O Lord, and glorify Your name?
For You alone are holy.
For all nations shall come and worship before You,
For Your judgments have been manifested.”

[[b]Which one of these scripture should we use to support using Jehovah-juanna, God-ka and toking the Ghost? If none of these, which ones can you give?[/b]

Ephesians 5:1 says, “Therefore be imitators of God as dear children.” [b]Which one of these are being imitators of God, acting like we’re 1) getting high on drugs or 2) getting drunk?[/b]

2 Corinthians 6:14b says “And what communion has light with darkness?” [b]Then how does imitating darkness bring light?[/b]

Jesus said in John 17:16, “They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.” [b]Why do we want to imitate the world, if we are not of the world?[/b]

Romans 6:20-23 states, “20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” [b]For those who were former addicts and alcoholics, why would they want to pretend to do those things that they are now ashamed of?[/b]

Galatians 5:13 says, “For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.” [b]If our liberty in Jesus doesn’t give us freedom to act out in the flesh, why would it give us freedom to act as if we are in the flesh?[/b]

1 Thessalonians 5:20-21 (KJV) says “21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.” [b]How does our appearing evil (acting like we’re high on drugs/drunk), in the manner that John Crowder would have us to do, please Jesus?[/b]

[b]Do I need to say anymore?[/b]

[b]If the word of God is true, then that leaves us with Romans 16:17,[/b]

17 Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them.

[b]I choose to avoid John Crowder.[/b]

Excellent LoveGodsWay2

I don know if you realize I am addressing a post in youre thread aand not your john Crowder issue

Just in case I will reposst it for your consideration;

"If the enemy can get Christians to seek after experiences, then he surely can deceive them. The reason why many moves of God have been sidetracked is because Christians have gone after the manifestations, and it became all about what makes me feel good. The presence of God was compared to a drug high, and it was even encouraged by some of the leaders to seek after being drunk in the Spirit.

I have seen that Christians that seek after these experiences are some of the most carnally minded people that you will ever meet, and are not growing spiritually."

Wow you can actually read people's heart like that?

I have been in those meetings you speak evil of and I have to admit they weren't perfect,but the anointing and presence of God was so intense I know I will never forget it.

I was there,I saw some wrong things. They like you didn't know what to do.
And you weren't there to show them what to do.
I sincerely hope if another revival comes you can show up to tell the leadership exactly who is manifesting purely and those that manifest with incorrect motives.

You don't and I dont know what they seek.
They say they seek God and you say they are liars.
I am sure this was said of the upper room crowd too.

"they just met in the upper room to get those flame things and get that reeling around drunk feeling."

I saw the 2 threads locked criticising the SI revival.

Kinda stings dont it?

Please note the indictment against Christians who attend meetings where manifestations occur
I am loped in with his evil group

Well you misread what I said (kinda funny since you can see everybody's heart)

I said Christians,not leaders.

considering the uproar over the word manifestation,i am wondering if anyone on SI thinks God still moves in power,and if so, what is my reaction to it?

Quote:
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Well you misread what I said (kinda funny since you can see everybody's heart)
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Touchy, aren't we? I guess I'm not the only one having difficulty trying to understand you here. Quote:
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I said Christians,not leaders.
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This distinction, as far as I know, has no bearing on the scripture I provided

OK so are you saying,for example my objections to misreading someones heart is unfounded and therefore,as long as it is within the boundaries of certain discrimination's (not mine) that are abstract we now have set new forum rules?

psalm1 wrote:

considering the uproar over the word manifestation,i am wondering if anyone on SI thinks God still moves in power,and if so, what is my reaction to it?

My brother. God stil moves in power. I have been blessed to be used by the Lord in many different areas of manifistations, but they all have been scriptual.

Seriously brother, maybe I am misreading it, but why are you defending these clowns? I wholy and fully believe in everything that the Lord says that we will do with giftings, but I will baulk everytime a man says what are the giftings.

Either way brother, I trust that you have a clean and pure heart on this matter. I choose to follow scripture.

Can you guys please,please,please, READ my objection without bringing in all the misrepresentation.

It seems to me that the ones with NO DECEPTION cant discern a sentence.

Lets try again;

"If the enemy can get Christians to seek after experiences, then he surely can deceive them. The reason why many moves of God have been sidetracked is because Christians have gone after the manifestations, and it became all about what makes me feel good. The presence of God was compared to a drug high, and it was even encouraged by some of the leaders to seek after being drunk in the Spirit.

I have seen that Christians that seek after these experiences are some of the most carnally minded people that you will ever meet, and are not growing spiritually."

Wow you can actually read people's heart like that?"

CHRISTIANS SEEKING AFTER EXPERIENCES?
HOW DOES HE KNOW THIS?

The leader of the church network I was envolved invited John Crowder for a conference in the UK a couple of years back. Really weird stuff, it topped even what we saw in the Lakeland revival. He made grown up men bounce like goons.
This leader used to have an appetite for false prophets, however to his credit I must say, he dimissed John Crowder, and only because he was not in fellowship.

2. Tim 3:12 In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, 13while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.

Prepare yourself for more of this.

narrowpath

OK so are you saying,for example my objections to misreading someones heart is unfounded and therefore,as long as it is within the boundaries of certain discrimination's (not mine) that are abstract we now have set new forum rules?

Since these people align themselves with Christianity, we have a duty to discern and judge the fruit. The fact that you "feel" the anointing at their meetings means nothing, because, frankly, I don't trust your definition of "anointing" as I believe you juggle soul with spirit. It has nothing to do with denomination but everything to do with scripture. When it comes to a toss up between personal experience and scripture, personal experience must go into the wastebasket - no matter what kind of emotion or anointing or feeling accompanied those experiences at the time.

[u]PaulWest wrote[/u]: "I don't trust your definition of "anointing" as I believe you juxtapose soul with spirit."

[u]Appolus wrote[/u]: "This is a classic statement psalm and you would do well to study what he is talking about. [b][u]Right here in this sentence is where the line is drawn"[/u][/b].

Heb 4:12 - For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing [b]even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit[/b], and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

1 Cor. 15:45 - And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.

“We must distinguish these two operations very clearly, for this is of the utmost importance. None can work satisfactorily if he is confused on this point. Let me repeat: the soul is itself truly alive, but it cannot make others to live. The spirit, on the other hand, is not only itself living but in addition gives life to others. This is why I state with such emphasis that we must lay down our soul power. All that is of the soul is of no avail. We are not quarreling over terminologies, for this is too great a principle. Although the soul is alive, it has no way to make others live. Hence in helping people, we should aim at the depth of their beings instead of merely aiding their minds. We must not work according to psychic force, since it can neither save nor profit anyone. How very careful we need to be. How we must deny whatever comes out of the soul. For it not only cannot help people, it also hinders God's work. It offends God as well as deprives Him of His glory.” – From Watchman Nee, [b]The Latent Power of the Soul[/b]

If it helps in understanding this Nee writes, with respect to praising the use/effect of singing/music: "Should a person live casually for six days and then come to God one day, he should instead feel guilty and reprove himself. How then is it that the singing makes him feel warm and joyful? This cannot be spiritual power. I do not wish to be a narrow critic, but it must be pointed out that too much singing does excite soul power." – Watchman Nee, [b]The Latent Power of the Soul[/b] (He points out similar dangers of expressing the latent power of the soul in studying/preaching the Bible.)

Do I need to say I am not lifting up Mr. Nee?
Do I need to say I am not inviting discussion of music?

The Youtube clips were interesting and while I wouldn't say that they sit particularly comfortably with me I thought the second one (when they are talking in their kitchen) was encouraging as they clearly had a focus on making the reality of Jesus Christ relevant to a sub culture that defines "good" through experience and more often than not that experience is found through drug use. I would assume that sits outside many people's experience and context on this site but then we need to accept the importance of contextualisation in presenting our faith today - we live in a post modern age and as Christians we need to recognise that mindset flows through every aspect of our culture today - shutting our eyes and bemoaning that will not make it go away - a large focus in presenting our faith is that it needs to be in a manner that is true to God's word but also in a manner that is relevant. As painful as it may be launching into a Spurgeon style sermon might not work to a particular group. Paul took quite a pragmatic view in such things - whether through adapting his preaching in Athens to be culturally relevant or accepting that even if others were preaching out of selfish ambition then if Christ was still preached and people come to know him then Hallelujah! It is good to have different people come to our church's from time to time to expound the Gospel in a manner that may be very different from what they are used to - although the rub is in ensuring that the message is in line with God's Word says - it's a difficult balance to get right as we are very good at tying God's Word to our own cultural preferences...

However on reflection I thought the comment made by an earlier poster about Christians thinking they are operating through God's Spirit but are in fact being led by their soulish nature (that's a paraphrase) was spot on. It is a huge problem in my church where there are many young people who are doing this very thing and thinking that they are doing the right thing. How do we as leaders or experienced Christians guide them so that the Holy Spirit speaking to their spirit guides them and not their emotions...??

I don't typically recommend Derek Prince's writings and sermons, but he did a helpful message series called "Protection from Deception.' You can do a search and find the audio on his site. The one I particularly recommend is called, [b]Earthly, Soulish, Demonic.[/b] It is well worth a careful listen.

Appolus, Robert W
Many thanks - some useful thoughts there.