Message to the USA Church

I am posting this for your own discernment. Please pray about this message. I do not know of this man personally, but I do know that the Lord has been giving me the same type of message over the last 2 1/2 years. This came from Andrew Strom's mailing list.-----------------------"PROPHETIC MESSAGE to the USA CHURCH"-by Sadhu Sundar Selvaraj (-prophet from India).Delivered to the church in St. Louis, June 2002.Don't you believe any of the false prophets who preached to you after 9/11 saying it was not a judgment of God.... Two days before 9/11 happened, a dear friend of mine, a very saintly prophet of God, was taken up in the spirit to Heaven. And while he stood before the presence of the Almighty God, the Lord Jesus Christ called forth for a mighty, powerful angel. He came and stood before the Lord Jesus Christ. And a fiery torch was given to this angel. As soon as the angel held the torch, he became enflamed (engulfed) with fire from the crown of his head to the sole of his feet. And then, the command was given to the angel, GO FORTH! And cast this fire down upon the nations of the world. And the angel and this prophet came down, and they stood in the mid-heavens. And the angel told him, now see what happens. And the angel took the fiery torch in his hand and cast down fires in several parts of the earth. And when the fires were thrown, the angel told him, From now onward, there will be bombings, fires and destructions in many, many nations around the world. That (vision) was (given to this prophet) on the seventh of September (of 2001). On the eighth of September, when he was conducting a fasting and prayer meeting in his church, the same angel came and stood by his side again, and repeated into his ear, audibly, word for word, every event that he saw the previous day. And the angel commanded him, Now, declare to your church everything that you saw and you heard. And with great fear and trembling, he shared what he saw and what he heard. And they all prayed. Several days later came the judgment upon America. It was not an ordinary terrorist attack. If you read in the Old Testament, the five books of Moses, every time Israel would go away, go astray from the commandments and laws of God, the Bible says very clearly, God will turn her enemies against her. The hornets and the wild beasts will be let loose to come and create havoc in the land of Israel among the Israelites. If God can do that to the chosen nation, the chosen people, how much more YOU? God removed his protective cover, removed his protective hand, because you constantly turned your back against the Almighty God. I was supposed to speak with you about the crucified life, as Imentioned last night. But today, as I was here during the worship service, an angel of the Lord came and stood before me, and he told me to do something else. That is what is happening right now. Exodus 34:5 onwards..."And the Lord passed by before Him andproclaimed, The Lord, the Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering and abundant in goodness and truth. Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin. And that will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquities of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, to the third and to the fourth generation." Please observe the last part in verse seven, "visiting the iniquities of the fathers upon the children and upon the children's children unto the third and fourth generation. I came well prepared to continue preaching on the crucified life. But as we were deeply worshiping the Lord, I saw the chief prince angel over the nation of the United States of America. He came and stood before me. I first began seeing chief prince angels of nations when I went to South Africa. That was the first time that I ever saw a chief prince angel that is in charge of overlooking the affairs of an entire nation. And he gave me a word concerning the nation, concerning the will of God, and what God's purpose is for the nation. From then onwards, for the many, many nations that I would go to, the respectiveangels of those nations would come to me and give me a word for the nation: what is God's word, what does God think about the nation, what has been happening in the nation, in the churches, and what is going to come to pass. So when the angel of the United States of America came and stood before me, I tremble and quake every time I see an angel of a nation, I always tremble and quake in my heart, because of the awesome anointing and authority they have. When he came and stood before me, he told me, An awesome judgment is going to come upon America very soon. An awesome judgment. When he spoke, I felta fear, a Godly fear running through my bones and my spirit. This is not a judgment that would destroy the entire nation, but something quite similar to what happened with the twin towers. But, it can all be prevented, IF RIVERS OF INTERCESSION flow in the nation. This is the word that he told me to speak. And I saw, that if you will take this seriously and pray, a huge river flowing all throughout the center of your country. If it flows - a river of tears, rivers of intercession (and as the angel was speaking, I saw this huge white river flowing from the east to the west)-- only that would prevent this judgment that could come. And then I saw this angel, where he was positioned and where he was standing, guarding over the United States of America. He was standingvery near to where the Statue of Liberty is. A huge, gigantic angel! If you read in Revelation, chapter ten, it is written, John saw an angel so huge and mighty that one of his legs was on the earth, the other leg was on the sea, and he stretched out his hand and he reached to the sun. Can you imagine what a gigantic figure he must have been? Probably as tall as the Sears tower or the former World Trade Center. Such a huge, gigantic angel standing guard over the United States of America! My dearly beloved brothers and sisters, as he was speaking these words, he said this is the word that you should preach tonight. And then I saw the heavens open, and from the throne of God, this word came to me: Visiting the iniquities of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children unto the third and to the fourth generation. The judgments of God. Don't you believe any of the false prophets who preach to you after 9/11 saying, it was not a judgment of God. I tell you, as a non-American, and as a holy prophet of God, what happened was a judgment from God.... You know, when I first came to America, in 1991, on the fourth of July, your Independence Day, I was in a conference scheduled to speak. As I was worshiping the Lord, I saw the heavens open before me, and the Lord Jesus Christ stood there, and He told me,"Now I am going to give you a word for this nation." Among the three things that He showed me, they all have come to pass, but I will tell you one thing that concerns you right now: I saw the flag of America. -- You know, I have never seen a people like the Americans, who love their nation so much, and who are so patriotic about their great nation. That is good. When I traveled in your country, I used to see these huge, gigantic flags that fly so majestically in some parts of the country. I feel very proud, as if I myself was an American. The same American flag, I saw in the heavens. But instead of flying in the right direction, it was flying in the reverse direction. And the Lord Jesus Christ was standing at the flag and knocking on the flag. And as He was knocking, I saw the words, LAST CALL flashing. Last Call was flashing and flashing. Then the word of the Lord came unto me, "This nation -- the flag that you see flying in the reverse direction is the heart of this nationthat has turned away from righteousness, and is walking toward unrighteousness. She has turned her back towards Me. Yet, I am still calling her. Last call, last call, last call. And for the three months that I was in the U.S. during that period, every church and every conference that I went to, I was commanded to share this vision. And ask the American people to pray for your country. But you know, I was very aghast to notice that the Americans, especially American Christians, take very lightly such words, because you think that the non-Christian Americans deserve God's judgment. You really don't love your country. You think you love your country, but deep down in your heart, you don't really love your country. You have such a self-righteous attitude, thinking that the non-Christiansdeserve the judgment of God, and you deserve Heaven. Don't you think that when the twin towers came down, many Christians also perished? When the economy of New York City came to a standstill, how many Christians also suffered economic losses, job layoffs. Thirty-thousand Indians working in New York City were sent back home. Overnight, 30,000 Indians lost their jobs. They came back home, among them, many Christians. They wrote to me for prayer. When the judgment of God comes, remember: even the righteous may have to suffer. When God's judgments came upon Israel, and she was taken captive to Babylon, righteous Daniel was among them! He was a captive. When Israel was under the captivity of another foreign nation, righteous Jeremiah was there! RighteousNehemiah was there. The righteous saints also go into the captivity! Don't you forget that. Don't forget that. You have been duped by all the false teachers and false prophets in your country, deluding you and deceiving you into thinking that no matter what happens, you will always be protected. As a result, you are suffering from spiritual lethargy, hearing only that which you want to hear and switching off when you don't want to hear. You know, of you it is written in the Bible, "those who have itching ears, only wanting tohear pleasant words." My dear brothers and sisters, the judgments of God are real. The countdown has begun. You know, India and Pakistan came this close to an all-out nuclear war. If the war took place, the whole of Pakistan would have been wiped out. Four northern states in India would have been wiped out. And the defense analysts predicted that Pakistan would have been uninhabitable for thirty years because of the nuclear dust that would be hanging over the country. The whole of north India would have been wiped out. Nepal would be wiped out. Tibet would be affected. They came this close to an all-out nuclear war. Somehow, God spared us. My dear brothers and sisters, if you read the Holy Bible, forget about church doctrines, forget about vain traditions and teachings of men who only want to bilk you out of your money. I am declaring to you the oracles of God right now. From Genesis to Revelation, if you read the Holy Bible, it shows very clearly two things: redemptive judgment. God judges! Because He is a good God. From the garden of Eden all the way up to the book of Revelation, you will see these two themes: love and judgment. Not just love and love, and bless me and bless me. This is how your prophets and teachers are teaching you today. And they have not only corrupted the American church, they are corrupting the Indian church. They are corrupting the Eastern church, they're corrupting the African church and they're corrupting the European church. It (unbalanced teaching) has been exported!... Many people teach, If you are once saved, you are forever saved. That is a teaching from the pit of hell. Once saved is not forever saved. (Technically, I do believe that, but not practically.) Not from the viewpoint of God, because it is written in Matthew 24:13, "He that endures until the end, only HE shall be saved." Enduring until the end! Lot's wife did not endure until the end. As she was on the road to redemption, she left behind her heart in Sodom and Gomorrah. Her heart pulled her back. And she turned and she saw, SAVED but then suddenly DESTROYED! Don't be deceived! I tell you one more time with great love and all humility, don't be deceived that once saved is always saved. Don't be deceived that just because you are a tongue-talking Christian that you will be saved and caught up in the rapture. Don't be deceived. He that endures until the end, only he shall be saved. Look at the story of Nineveh. Jonah went there, preaching. It took three days to walk around the whole city. For three days, he was crying out, "REPENT! If not, then in forty days you will be destroyed!" From the king to the animals, they all fasted for forty days. They repented in sackcloth. God's heart was moved with compassion. Judgment was delayed, but Nineveh was eventually destroyed because she only repented for a season, like you (America).After 9/11, the whole nation appeared holy and repentant for a season. Now you are back to normal. You are back to your filth. You are back to your corruption, you are back to your sins. You have forgotten the repentance you did after 9/11. The vows you have made unto the living God after 9/11, you have forgotten! The altars that you had repaired after 9/11, you have forgotten! And they are back in ruins again! The Scriptures say, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever." My spirit shall not strive with man forever. Now come with me to the New Testament, in Luke, chapter nineteen. The Lord Jesus Christ looks at the city of Jerusalem, His beloved city, His own city, He has no other city except Jerusalem. He looked at the city, and He beat His face and He cried, and cried and cried. No one had ever seen the Lord Jesus crying like that before. This was even before He cried at Lazarus's tomb. He was beating His face, beating his breast and crying bitterly. Why? Because the very people for whom He came, as the very personification of redemption, they were going to reject the Messiah. And what would result from that rejection? Judgment. The Lord Jesus predicted, "Oh Jerusalem, you are going to be destroyed! They are going to siege you around! You are going to be utterly destroyed! Your city will be burned, you will become ashes!" He cried, like a mother crying for her baby. Thirty-three and a half years after the Lord Jesus Christ was crucified, Jerusalem was burned to ashes. Not one time, but three times, the city was burned to ashes. My dear brothers and sisters, did she repent?

Part 2 - "PROPHETIC MESSAGE to the USA CHURCH" .-by Sadhu Sundar Selvaraj (-prophet from India).Delivered to the church in St. Louis, June 2002. America is good. A good nation, a giving nation, a helpful nation. And at the same time, a prideful, arrogant nation. She thinks that she has become great by the power and strength of her own might. She has forgotten that it is the Lord God that has lifted you up, blessed you, made you strong and mighty, but you have forgotten your creator. Look at the Book of Revelation, chapter two and three, the seven messages to the seven churches that were existing at the time. None of them, except the church in Smyrna, received a (good) word from the Lord Jesus Christ. The rest of the six churches were receiving conditional judgment. If they repented, it would be well and good. If not, the Lord said (to one particular church), "I will remove your candlestick and you will be destroyed." I was once preaching in a charismatic church in Singapore. The pastor invited me to his house for Christmas Day dinner. Together with me were his two church elders. After dinner, before I left, he said, please bless our family before you leave. I stood to pray for his family. And the Lord Jesus Christ came and stood beside me and said, "For three years, I have been coming to his church and looking for fruits, and none are bearing. Right now, I am going tocut this tree." Then I fell on my knees, and I interceded for the church. For twenty-five minutes, I cried to the Lord. "No Lord, please don't. Please don't. Spare them Lord for one more year. The Lord Jesus heard my prayer and He said, "Because you asked, I will spare them for one more year." After the prayer, I called the pastor privately and I told him this word (from the Lord). And I totally forgot about this entire event. But, 365 days later, exactly to the day, the Lord Jesus Christ appeared to me and He said, "The one year is up." I totally forgot about it. He came and reminded me. "The one year is up. And during that one year, she did not bear any fruit. NOW, the reapers will go and will cut the tree." From the moment the Lord Jesus spoke that word, I saw the tree of this church withering day by day, by day. Today, it does not exist. Even the pastor is no more the pastor of the church. The church totally closed up. This is just one example that I have told you. I could tell you examples of many other churches where the Lord came and removed the candlestick from the other churches. (Another) church with whom I had a very close affiliation, it's like I was a mother giving birth to the church (I gave birth to the church). But the very mother who gave birth to the church, -the very mother-, had to use a dagger to stab her, like Abraham did. One day when I was in their church, the Lord Jesus appeared to me and He said, "I am going to remove their candlestick." When I told this to the pastor, he laughed at me. He said, "Brother, we are in the New Testament. We are under grace. How would God ever do like (what you have just said)?" I looked at him and I said, "If I am a true prophet of God, and if that word truly came from God, it will come to pass." And I shook off the dust off my feet that day, and I never went back to that church again. But one year later, the candlestick was removed from the church. And that church is no more in existence. My dear brothers and sisters, donâ't take your salvation for granted. Don't take your freedom for granted. Don't take the mercy of Godfor granted. Don't take the redemptive grace of God for granted. Several years ago, I was preaching at a conference in Sydney, Australia. You know the city of Sydney is exactly like the city of San Francisco. The very sins in San Francisco are the very sins in Sydney. The very sins that you see in New York City are the very sins in Perth. Two identical cities, on the east and west coast in your nation are the same (in these spiritual respects) cities inAustralia, east and west coast. They are always gateway cities. While I was there, one evening an awesome angel came and stood before me. I am usually never fearful in the midst of angels, except when I started seeing the chief princes of nations. But that particular angel, when he stood before me, I trembled and quaked like a leaf. And he had like a bowl in his hand. And he looked at me with a fierce look in his eyes, and he said, "I am one of the two angels that was sent out to spy Sodom and Gomorrah. And I have been sent here to spy out the city and pour this vial of judgment upon the city." Only then I understood why I was trembling. With fear, I fell on my face before God. I prayed and prayed for the city of Sydney. I said, "Lord, not now. There is still three more days for the conference, Lord. I will gather all the Christians to repent for Sydney, to pray for this nation." For a long time I was lying on my face. Finally, thecountenance on the angel's face changed. He became calmer, and he said, "I am leaving now for a season." And he left. That night I went to the conference. Seven hundred people had come, andI shared with them what I saw. All the 700 people fell down on their faces before God. For forty-five minutes -- there was no message that evening -- for forty-five minutes, they were all crying, beating their faces, beating their breasts, and beating the floors. The whole auditorium was reverberating and echoing with their tears and with their cries. Everyone from the oldest to the youngest were on their faces before God. My dear brothers and sisters, I tell you one more truth today. As the chief prince angel of the United States ofAmerica stood before me, he said, Like the angels that went out to spy out Sodom and Gomorrah, a host of angels are walking the length and breadth of your country, spying out the land in a similar manner to how the two angels did (at Sodom)." I tell you, when the white missionaries go to the East and to Africa to preach, we hear the gospel. We turn away from our millions of gods of wood and stone, and we turn back to worship the true and living God. But the gods we give up, you are now embracing, and you are bowing down and worshiping them. So who is the greater heathen, tell me? The nations in the East? No way! Because we are turning back to the righteous God. And the supposedly Christian nation is becoming a heathen nation where you have all kinds of abomination. You know,none of the Muslim nations in the Middle East will allow (except for Bahrain, Kuwait and United Arab Emirates, except for these three countries) -- the rest of the countries would never allow a Christian church in their nation. The largest Muslim mosque outside the Middle East is in the United Kingdom. In fact, the headquarters for their European operation and American operation is in the United Kingdom, a supposedly Christian nation. And the churches in the U.K. open their doors to allow the Muslims to come in and use their very premises for the propagation of Islam. Would they (Muslim countries) do that? They will not even allow you (to practice openly in their country). They consider Christians infidels. They will not even allow us into their churches. They will not allow us to build churches in their nations. Whereas, we, in the name of the FirstAmendment, -- you know, your very freedom has become your curse. The very First Amendment that you use to promote 'freedom of speech' has become your very curse. That's what the gays are now using. The First Amendment. We (the gays, in this case) have the right to speak what we want, and you (the church) cannot disagree with us. Your freedom, your liberty, has become your curse. My dear brothers and sisters, unless you weep for your nation, great judgment is going to come. Unless rivers of intercession flow in your nation, unless tears of repentance flow from your eyes, flow from your churches and water this nation, judgments have been pronounced. You know, there is a certain group of angelic beings called the Watchers. We only read about them in one book of the Bible. The book of Daniel, chapter four, verses 13 and 23. This specific group of angelic beings are in charge of executing and overseeing the plans of God and judgments of God over each nation. At their command, they can execute judgment. I was in the nation of Indonesia in 1998, just after the fall of a dictator that ruled that nation for thirty-two years. On the first day that I was in that nation, the chief prince angel over Indonesia entered into my room, and he said, "Whatever has happened in this nation has been decreed and ordered by the watchers in Heaven. They decreed and they said, let there be achange." And overnight, the dictator of thirty-two years was overthrown. Overnight -- it did not happen over a long period of time. Overnight, he was overthrown -- decreed by the Watchers. The same decree has been passed. However, -- you know, when a person is sentenced to death, he can have one last final appeal to the president. Do you have this in your country? We have this (law) there. It is called the "President's pardon". If the President chooses to pardon, the person sentenced to die can (have their sentence reduced) to life in prison. You (America) are in that stage (or situation) right now, and your only appeal is to the Heavenly Father. The final pardon is in His hands. If not (if the church in America does not give enough intercession and weeping), 9/11 was just a sample. It will be repeated and repeated.My dear brothers and sisters, God loves you. If he did not love you, an angel would not have come to give that word. Let me tell you today how God works. If He wants to execute a judgment, He will just carry it out without informing His prophets. He would do that. Why does He tell His prophets? Amos 3:7-8- "God will not do anything before He tells His prophets." Why? So that they will pray. God wanted to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah, but why tellAbraham beforehand? So that he would intercede and pray for the salvation of Lot. He (Lot) was under the same curse. He (God) could have just destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. Why inform Abraham first? Even today, God follows this same principle. Why is God informing you? So that you can be saved. So that you will repent. So that you will cry out to God. So that His entire pronouncement can be overturned, and mercy can come upon your nation. You know, it is not so much God's wrath, but the hardnessof your hearts, the hardness and sins in your hearts that must be changed, and the nation will turn back from unrighteousness to righteousness. You have an awesome call upon your nation. You know, the symbol of your nation, a flying eagle, was not chosen by your forefathers by accident. An eagle is a Heavenly bird. It's supposed to be up there in the heavenlies with God, not down onthe ground like a vulture, eating flesh. But you, the mighty eagle, have now become an ugly, flesh-eating vulture. The church is no better. The standards of the world have crept into the church. Are you pure? What is the difference between you and the world? You are called to be separate. You are called to be peculiar. What is so peculiar about you if your lifestyle is exactly the same as the world? What is so peculiar? Why then should non-believing Americans get saved? Why? When the church is stinking, why should they get saved? That is the reason why many are embracing Islam. They areembracing Buddhism. Did you know, let me tell you truth, Buddhism is the fastest growing religion in North America. Not Christianity, which is decreasing in size. The church in Europe is decreasing in size. Islam is the fastest growing religion in Europe. What's happening to you? The church is growing in the East. The church is growing in Africa. But you are shrinking. Why? Because (your lack of loyalty or fidelity to the teachings of Christ) stinks. Tell me now in all honesty. Do you think that you deserve the grace of God? You don't. Do you honestly believe, as you see your own condition better than I do, do you honestly think that you deserve themercy of God? No. Yet, God is good God. His mercy endures forever. (The passage in Scripture states), "The Lord, God is good, merciful, forgiving, merciful to a thousand generations." In the many names of God that are mentioned in Scripture, three times it talks about His goodness. Only one time it says that He will judge, which means His goodness is three times greater than His judgment. My dearly beloved American brothers and sisters, the Lord Jesus Christ loves you very much. But He cannot accept a corrupted church. He loves you. If not, this meeting would not have been held. He loves you very much. But He cannot accept a compromising church. He loves you, but He cannot accept deceiving teachers, and lying prophets. But the wheat and tares have been allowed to grow at the same time. He has allowed it, patiently waiting, hoping against all hope that you will repent. Every little judgment that He sends to you, hoping against all hope that you will repent. But you are not. Youknow, I fear that your fate will be as exactly what happened to Jerusalem. The Lord Jesus said, "Prophets after prophets were sent to you, Jerusalem. Instead of embracing them, you stoned them to death. And (as) the final prophet, I am coming. You have not known the hour of your visitation, oh Jerusalem. And now, therefore, the hour is coming when you will be sieged all around, and you will be desolate." What would you like to choose? Let's all bow our head for a word of prayer. What will you choose? Will you cause a river of intercession to flow in your nation? Will you cause a river of intercession to flow in your nation? Or are you going to just sit here and let this word run down your back like water on a duck's back? Can God count on you? Can all the hosts of Heaven count on you that you will intercede? That you will weep like Jeremiah? Can He count on you? If you are willing, get up from your seats right now, and fall down on your face before God. And lift up your heart and cry for your nation now! Lift up your hearts and cry for your nation now! Lift up your heart and cry for your nation. Oh, America, oh beautiful America, won't you repent? Tear you heart! Tear your heart! And cry for your country! I am not asking you to cry for India! Cry for your own nation! Tear your heart. Cry out to Him for His mercy! Tell Him, "We have sinned Lord! We have sinned, Lord. We have turned our backs against you, God!" Cry out to Him. Cry out to Him now! Let the rivers of intercession flow now Oh you daughters ofAmerica, let your tears flow now, let your tears flow. Cast away your good-for-nothing pride! Cast away your pride. Your military might is nothing before God. Cast away your arrogance. Cast away your sexual sin! Cry, cry, takes (America's) sins onto your shoulders, and cry now. Let your tears flow like rivers now. Let your tears flow like rivers. The children in the East arerepenting and turning back to righteousness. Oh My children in America, will you be destroyed? Will you perish, while they who are sitting in darkness are turning back to righteousness and light? Oh ye, that were of light and sitting in the light, why have you embraceddarkness? Why have you allowed your understanding to be darkened? Why have your beauties turned into corruption? Cry out to Him. Cry out to Him now. The Spirit of Christ is telling me now; the only way that righteousness can spring up in this nation is if the church will turn back to righteousness. And she will weep and sow righteousness into the land. Oh you daughters of America, don't just mechanically pray. Don't just pray because I asked you to pray. Tear your heart! Tear you inner heart! And turn back to God with weeping, with fasting, with repentance. Turn back to God! (Spirit of grace and spirit of supplication, come and abide in us!)[Forty-five minutes or so of weeping and intercession is offered. Then Sadhu Sundar Selvaraj returned to offer these additional words]: The angel over the United States of America is still standing here. And he showed me that all your intercession (just offered) is just a drop in the bucket that he has in his hand. And the word of the Lord that has just come to me is this, "If My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, seek My face and pray, and turn back from their wicked ways, I will hear their prayers, I will forgive their sins and I willheal their land." Lift up your hands to God, America.

Hi ChaninI don't know whether it is appropriate for an outsider to comment on these prophecies but I have to say I find no place for them in my spirit.

I agree with Bro. Ron to the extent that I do not like it when I hear so called, "prophets." So in this case I read through this message with that attitude. I must say though, that inside the borders of this nation- the essense of this message is definately right on. Backslidden America has found no place for this message. God is sending warning after warning after warning to this nation. The more the trumpet blows in Zion (as it were) the deeper the slumber becomes. The urgency that I have felt in this land is increasing by the day. I read the entire work. It is nothing new. Talking about angels and the Lord appearing is heavy stuff and my immediate reaction is to repulse; but all must understand that in America this nation is destined for the very flames of Hell if she don't TURN back to God, and TURN fast. Nothing would surprise me anymore. Again, I must say I have always prided myself (humbly of coarse ;) in not giving heed to prophets, dreams, visions and the like. I always seen these people as being from Flakesville. I am from Missouri (the 'show me' state). :-) This year has been different. Since 2004 began- God has been taking extraordinary steps to gain my attention and keep it. Things have gotten very very serious in my neck of the woods. I would not expect anyone beyond the borders of this nation to see or feel the truth of God's judgment hanging over our heads. The true Christians I talk to all agree that we feel this urgency in our spirit. Lift up your hearts and cry for your nation now!Lift up your heart and cry for your nation. Oh, America, oh beautifulAmerica, won't you repent? Tear you heart! Tear your heart! Andcry for your country! I am not asking you to cry for India! Cry foryour own nation! Tear your heart. Cry out to Him for His mercy! TellHim, "We have sinned Lord! We have sinned, Lord. We have turnedour backs against you, God!" Cry out to Him. Cry out to Him now!Let the rivers of intercession flow now Oh you daughters ofAmerica, let your tears flow now, let your tears flow.Could these be the words of a false prophet? If they are false they are more good than what is going across the pulpits of our lands. We see false prophets proclaiming prosperity and every vile thing. Let these men who have the boldness to call this nation to repent fearlessly to speak in our churches. Let them sound the call. God will use a willing vessel. Would to God that He raise up thousands of Whitefields, Wesleys, Edwards, and Finneys. Or better yet, men suited for the wickedness of our times. Men that may well need a much greater walk with God than has been needed in 2000 years. We need some John the Baptist's in this nation and we need them fast.God Bless,-Robert

I do know that this "prophet" is not one of the ones who are in the "prophetic community" as we know it. This is very similar even to what David Wilkerson has been saying. Yes, Robert, it is nothing new really (except for some people who are not aware and go along with the notion that God will always bless America because it is a christian nation- ha ha)Also, from all of the things the Lord has shown me and the dreams I have had in these last 2 1/2 years, this goes right along with what this man is saying. The Lord has shown me that this nation is going right along as sodom, He has shown me that we are running the course just as Judah was in Ezekiel 16. These things that the Lord showed me were not something made up or an accident. I didn't even have a clue about any of the Old Testament Prophetrs before I had the dreams, etc...This man is saying what we all should already know about our condition here in America. He is calling us to weep and repent and turn from our ways. Actually many of the things he said here are the same exact things I have written in my journals from the previous years. I only post this now because I have gotten away from this message. I have been to that place and now the Lord has moved me on from that message- but it is always a good reminder of the state we are in in the country.In Him, Chanin

Yes, this message is a hard one to bring to people- even christians. Because the things the Lord has shown me in the past- people want to gnash their teeth at me- which could be why i have pulled away from this type of "judgement" message. Could be just that the Lord is showing me things in different areas instead.It is very rare to hear someone bring a "repent or perish" type message today. When the Lord showed me some of these things- this really got me to quickly come out of my lukewarmness.It does take boldness for a John the Baptist type to bring their message to the public. I see David Wilkerson as one of the few and he is hated by much of the christian community. Surely Wilkerson is not the only one who can bring this message to the church- more need to stand up and risk being doubted and hated and thought of as crazy. This includes myself, i guess. It is defintily more comfortable not addressing these things because people don't give you a hard time any more. :-( In Him, Chanin

I was supposed to speak with you about the crucified life, as I mentioned last nightJust from this I see that this guy is not your normal "prophet" that is in the "prophetic" circles common today.What is the difference between you and the world? You are called to be separate. You are called to be peculiar. What is so peculiar about you if your lifestyle is exactly the same as the world? What is so peculiar? Why then should non-believing Americans get saved? Why? When the church is stinking, why should they get saved? That is the reason why many are embracing Islam. They areembracing Buddhism. Did you know, let me tell you truth, Buddhism is the fastest growing religion in North America. Not Christianity, which is decreasing in size. The church in Europe is decreasing in size. Islam is the fastest growing religion in Europe. What's happening to you? The church is growing in the East. The church is growing in Africa. But you are shrinking. Why? Because (your lack of loyalty or fidelity to the teachings of Christ) stinks. The above says it all.In Him, Chanin

Wow Sister Chanin, thanks for sharing ... Below are a few (((bracketed))) excerpts that stood out in my mind that truly correspond with a message that i recieved from our Lord on 1/7/01, which i'll include a little further below .... The Indian brother states ...((( This is not a judgment that would destroy the entire nation, but something quite similar to what happened with the twin towers. But, it can all be prevented, IF RIVERS OF INTERCESSION flow in the nation. This is the word that he told me to speak. And I saw, that if you will take this seriously and pray, a huge river flowing all throughout the center of your country. If it flows - a river of tears, rivers of intercession (and as the angel was speaking, I saw this huge white river flowing from the east to the west)-- only that would prevent this judgment that could come. )))Well in my view all blessed with unblinded eye, and clear hearing as to what the Spirit is saying to the Church must be prepared for further judgment because it's gonna take even more serious devastation that 9/11 to make both Christ Church and America to bow our knees, let alone gush forth a massive river of repentance before our Lord ... The Indian brother continues ...((( The same American flag, I saw in the heavens. But instead of flying in the right direction, it was flying in the reverse direction. And the Lord Jesus Christ was standing at the flag and knocking on the flag. And as He was knocking, I saw the words, LAST CALL flashing. Last Call was flashing and flashing.Then the word of the Lord came unto me, "This nation -- the flag that you see flying in the reverse direction is the heart of this nation that has turned away from righteousness, and is walking toward unrighteousness.She has turned her back towards Me. Yet, I am still calling her. Last call, last call, last call )))i totally believe and recieve this brothers word as from our Lord, for it's confirmation to what He's been saying to me for some time now ... With me He uses the word "final" ... The Indian brother continues ... ((( But you know, I was very aghast to notice that the Americans, especially American Christians, take very lightly such words, because you think that the non-Christian Americans deserve God's judgment. You really don't love your country. You think you love your country, but deep down in your heart, you don't really love your country. You have such a self-righteous attitude, thinking that the non-Christians deserve the judgment of God, and you deserve Heaven. Don't you think that when the twin towers came down, many Christians also perished? When the economy of New York City came to a standstill, how many Christians also suffered economic losses, job layoffs. )))Now this is the scariest part to me of all that's transpiring today ... we don't even see our sin ... How can a people wake up if they don't even realize their asleep ... Today we think this dream is actually reality ... i have actually watched some saints visibly fight to stay asleep when i've mentioned that a lot of saints had their lives required of them on 9/11 ... The Indian brother continues ... ((( As a result, you are suffering from spiritual lethargy, hearing only that which you want to hear andswitching off when you don't want to hear. You know, of you it is written in the Bible, "those who have itching ears, only wanting to hear pleasant words." My dear brothers and sisters, the judgmentsof God are real. The countdown has begun. )))Ouch!!! ... This brothers statement "the countdown has begun" is the exact same phrase our Lord said to me on1/7/01 = WELCOME TO THE TRUE, NEW MILLENNIUM! .... 2001 .... "THE COUNTDOWN HAS BEGUN"EVENTS OF THIS DECADE:FIRST TO THE CHURCH ..... The Church of Jesus Christ, from Pentecost up until (313 AD) the time of the Roman church's usurpation of the leadership of the Holy Spirit, was a "do right" Church. It was not concerned with "grand edifices", but with the lowly individual human being as "temple" - and the welfare of the poor. It was not concerned with "pomp", but more eager to "pump" the life changing message of the Lord Jesus Christ. It's only interest in "circumstance" was "Are you saved" ? ... and "do you know Jesus"? And the only "ceremony" that held it's interest was that of "baptism", and the keeping of the "Last Supper" sacrament. After Satan's deception of the Body of Christ (via the vanities of men) into/thru a 1200 year period of spiritual darkness (The Dark Ages - 313 to 1525 AD), the Lord eventually called Martin Luther as His "protest-ant reformer". Since the time of his nailing the "95 THESIS" (1517 AD) to the church of Rome's door, the Body of Christ has been on a long, slow road back to recovery! Even though in our illness we have gained countless souls over the centuries (for the Word of God never returns unto Him void), we've since been on the mission of a "get right" Church! Christ has been waiting all this time for us to "renew our strength"! .... Well guess what! .... God say's, "WE'RE HEALED, so pick up our bed/his cross and walk"!!! .... God is now re-requiring a "do right" Church! He knows that WE are now just "pretending" infirmity, because WE don't really want to bear His cross, by individually speaking up about His Gospel ! ... THIS IS THE FINAL HARVEST! As per Revelation chapters 2 & 3, the Lord is about to "remove angels/pastors" and "candle sticks/individual churches" - "if thou doth not repent"! In other words its either "do right now", or "die right now"! ... spiritually and/or physically. ... And yes there is still "sin unto death", even under grace (1 John: 5:16).... Many pastors are about to be physically called home, so as to be replaced by "those whom God has chosen" to tend His flock. We are about to witness an unprecedented stirring up of the Body of Christ due to the Divine dismissal of "angels/pastors" who are not willing to "repent" to the renewed leadership of the Holy Spirit. And the redistribution (removal of candlesticks) of their sheep, hungry for the undiluted Word, towards relocation into "do right" churches (like that of Philadelphia) under "do right" pastors! .... So if YOU'RE a "do right" pastor, GET READY! ... for both your ministry and your responsibilities are about to skyrocket! (Matt: 25: 28-30) .... And you store front "do right" pastors of poor Smyrna type churches had better start looking for larger digs! ... Then "hold fast that which thou hast, that no man take thy crown"! (Rev. 3:11) Also the imminent chastisements coming on America will force the Body of Christ in America, into a renewed sense of Christian community and sharing (Acts. 2: 44-47 & Act. 4:34). God is not pleased with the palsied effect that socio-economic, racial, doctrinal, and denominational schisms have wracked upon His Body (1 Cor. chapter 12). There is but "one Lord, one faith and one baptism"! (Eph . 4: 1-6). And we are all "equally" joint heirs in Christ(Rom. 8:17). Let me make this analogy. We are not to be like the harlot that rides the back of the beast. We are not to be soft, puffy and bloated with the excesses of the warnings of 1 John 2: 15 & 16. WE ARE THE BRIDE OF CHRIST! Christ is coming back for a glorious Bride, one trim enough to don our soon coming wedding gown of glory! ..... There will be no signs of carnal overindulgences on the body of a Bride, fresh from being toned by the work in the field of her Lords final harvest .... REPENT!EVENTS OF THIS NEXT DECADE:....THEN TO THE NATIONS At this point the stench of America's wickedness toward God has caused Him to turn His face from her. Even her continuous support of Israel will not keep her from experiencing in this decade the woes already stored up. A serious decline in her ability to control other nations governmental and military policies is about to befall her. And she will become increasingly impotent in being able to manipulate the rest of the globe, because of United Nations overrules. America is also about to pay for her sins by having to endure an escalatinging barrage of serious financial, social, natural, and terroristic disasters. Unprecedented and horrific, they shall cause fear and trembling! America is about to suffer want and need, as chastisement for her immorality and greed! ... REPENT! The EC (European Community) will emerge as the dominant financial global force, and the Euro will replace the dollar as the worlds most valued currency. This is necessary for the fulfillment of the prophecies of Daniel, and the Apostle John. The Arabic/Islamic nations will finally unite, form a Federation, and become a power within themselves. This is necessary for the fulfillment of the prophecies of Daniel, and the Apostle John. Russia will increasingly become a self serving opportunistic nation, supporting those in the UN to it's own best advantage. While all of her once dominated Islamic satellite nations will attach themselves to the newly formed Arabic/Islamic Federation. All Islamic countries from Eastern Europe to the far East will do so. This is the word (i believe) i recieved from our Lord eight months prior to 9/11, and i can tell you that all it's distribution got me was riducule (oh there he goes again) and/or prayer (for deliverance from my hyper-faith) ... The Indian brother also stated ...((( After 9/11, the whole nation appeared holy and repentant for a season. Now you are back to normal. You are back to your filth. You are back to your corruption, you are back to your sins. You have forgotten the repentance you did after 9/11. The vows you have made unto the living God after 9/11, you have forgotten! The altars that you had repaired after 9/11, you have forgotten! And they are back in ruins again! The Scriptures say, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever." My spirit shall not strive with man forever. )))Hmmmm ... i often wonder what's it gonna take to wake up America ... Sarin gas in our subways? ... The tactical nuking say of N.Y., Philadelphia and/or Baltimore? ... What's it gonna take to bring us to our knees ... The Indian brother continues ...((( The standards of the world have crept into the church. Are you pure? What is the difference between you and the world? You are called to be separate. You are called to be peculiar. What is so peculiar about you if your lifestyle is exactly the same as the world? What is so peculiar? Why then should non-believing Americans get saved? Why? When the church is stinking, why should they get saved? That is the reason why many are embracing Islam. They are embracing Buddhism. Did you know, let me tell you truth, Buddhism is the fastest growing religion in North America. Not Christianity, which is decreasing in size. The church in Europe is decreasing in size. Islam is the fastest growing religion in Europe. What's happening to you? The church is growing in the East. The church is growing in Africa. But you are shrinking. Why? Because (your lack of loyalty or fidelity to the teachings of Christ) stinks. )))Double Ouch!!! ... Thank God that He has just recently taken me out of myself to realize that He alone is my/our only Source, Provision, and Power, that He disciplines those that He loves, and most important that He is in total control ... It may not look like it but He has His appointed time for everything, and it seems very evident to me that we're all about to experience His appointed time of judgement ... Thy will be done on earth Lord God, as it already is in heaven ... Amen

Do not follow every voice and do not run after every new revelation as if something extraordinary is produced and presented.Any man with a heart for the things of the Lord understands, without having revelations or dreams, without being "prophetic", that our nations are straying and in fundamental need of a voice preaching repentance covered by intercessors who know what God wants. Lars W.

Sis Chanin you posted:((( I only post this now because I have gotten away from this message. I have been to that place and now the Lord has moved me on from that message-Yes, this message is a hard one to bring to people- even christians. Because the things the Lord has shown me in the past- people want to gnash their teeth at me- which could be why i have pulled away from this type of "judgement" message. Could be just that the Lord is showing me things in different areas instead. )))Well if your road is anything like mine i don't think you made a decision to cease and desist in your "warning" messages, i believe, like myself, our Lord has desisted you ... Right after i delivered the third "word" He'd given me to my pastor/church He said in my spirit, "It is done, I will take it from here" ... I was overjoyed to be done with being one of His instruments of striving with man, but in equal trepidation of what generally happens when the words He speaks thru His prophets are not heeded ... Christian City, especially in America, is in for a shaking, a softening up if you will, and I don't think we'll find our message of "put away all your false idols" so resisted when we're finally sent back to Bethel (God's place, His Church) a second time ... i, and i dare say you also, like Jacob once was, now dwell at a place of rest, Shalem, Schechem, but it's only a regroup place, we'll not be allowed to stay, for we will recieve His call back to Bethel again ... Praise God, i now read, see, hear negative comments about "so called prophets", fruits, flakes and nuts, and i can now honestly say it's like water off a ducks back, for i am nothing, i no longer take it personal, if ridicule, hatred, marginalization and even death was good enough for the fore runners called to my office, especially Christ, then it's certainly good enough for me ... Prophets have been, and always will be concidered weirdos by most, we proclaim, "Fire's coming, fire's coming"! ... but few believe until we're all in the fire ... He has it all under control ... Amen

Any man with a heart for the things of the Lord understands, without having revelations or dreams, without being "prophetic", that our nations are straying and in fundamental need of a voice preaching repentance covered by intercessors who know what God wants. This is true to an extent. But in fairness, the extent is that to which you look and see the need with your eyes and begin to trevail in prayer as God commonly uses men and women of God. But; there is something about God sending you a dream that you know is from Him that will cause you to wake up and PREACH the message of repentance until you are utterly spent. Like FIRE shut up in your bones- you will preach and preach and preach. God will lead you into your prayer closet and call you out to preach. There have been over 30 such dreams sent to people I know and they are all stuff like you would read in the book of Revelation. Stuff that people don't just make up. They are all WARNINGS. When you KNOW that God has visited you in this way there is an urgency that cannot be explained. I have done a fair amount of praying and fasting over the last 10 years I suppose; but when God placed an urgency in me to utterly repent I showed up here at sermonindex. If it were not for a 'prophetic' visitation from God into my life I would not be at this forum and would not be preaching repentance. I would not be burning the candle like I am. The Spirit of God is upon me in a way that will not allow for silence. The pattern is this PRAY and PREACH... PRAY and PREACH. Perhaps I'm a "Finnyite" in this regard. May as well be I suppose; I grew up under his theology. We need the Daniel Nash's- but someone has to be the Charles G. Finney. Someone has to put some legs on their prayers. I would not follow anyone either with revelations- but we better be attuned to this repentance message in America. God Bless,-Robert

"Thus says the Lord of hosts: "Do not listen to the words of the prophets who prophesy to you. They make you worthless; they speak a vision of their own heart, not from the mouth of the Lord. They continually say to those who despise Me, The Lord has said, You shall have peace, and to everyone who walks according to the dictates of his own heart, they say, No evil shall come upon you.For who has stood in the counsel of the Lord, and has perceived and heard His word? Who has marked His word and heard it? Behold, a whirlwind of the Lord has gone forth in fury-- a violent whirlwind! It will fall violently on the head of the wicked. The anger of the Lord will not turn back until He has executed and performed the thoughts of His heart. In the latter days you will understand it perfectly. I have not sent these prophets yet they ran. I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied. But if they had stood in My counsel, and had caused My people to hear My words, Then they would have turned them from their evil way and from the evil of their doings." Jeremiah 23:16-22.Which prophets do we choose to hear today? Look around you these days are evil.In ChristJeff

A couple of shekels... (the shirt is in the wash :-( )Nothing earth shattering here, think Lars summed it up well. Also concur with what Robert and Greg 'sensed' in that creepy kind of feeling about angels and all the rest. None of which is to disregard any of the input from Chanin, Rahman et al...Guess what came to mind is that this is obvious to a more attuned eye and ear and frankly has been going on for quite awhile.A loose paraphrase from 'our' favorite grandfather:"If the Lord doesn't judge America soon, He will have to apologize for Sodom and Gomorrah" Leonard Ravenhill

Brother Greg,Thanks for the link ... i've went thru it and have to say that i agree with Brother Selvaraj's ...Statement of Faith:http://www.jesusministries.com.sg/aboutus_3.htmlAnd found his ...Personal Testimony:http://www.jesusministries.com.sg/aboutus_1.htmlvery interesting, raised Catholic, then Hindu, then saved .... Brother Greg you posted:((( I would be careful with this character Sadhu Sundar Selvaraj (-prophet from India). He is in fellowship with many very questionable and false people and if he was a true prophet he would seperate himself from the false priesthood and prophets. )))You call this brother a "character", which makes me think you've concluded him shady ... Can you please give us any additional info (links) about the group of unsavory people you said this brother is a part off? ... i'd like to know more ... Also you also posted:((( I believe I have heard an audio message by this fellow and even though he says alot of good things here the things stated in the audio message drew up red flags all over the place. )))Is it possible for you to find that audio message and post it (i really would like to hear it) ... And finally you posted:((( Amen Lars, the true prophetic voice in our day will not tickle ears, what a mockery that we have so many self-proclaimed prophets, but truly how many has God called to that office. )))Well i certainly didn't sense any ear tickling from Brother Selvaraj's "word" ... i myself have never had any visions on the level of his, or visitations from angels as this brother proclaims (except one dream where three of them silently flew past me) , but his warnings ring true in my spirit ... God knows i'd much rather hear from this brother if in fact he's a false prophet, than the brand we have here, and export from America ... i've often wondered when Joel spoke of God's pouring out of His Spirit in the last days, where He's giving dreams and visions to folk, what would be the criteria for how He'll choose to show someone something ... He doesn't give any criteria in Joel but the Bible is jam packed full of accounts of how He's appeared to folk, but today we sure seem to have put a lot of proof criteria on how He can, and cannot appear to folk ... The Book says that we are to try the Spirit, by the Spirit ... God in the OT talked to men with angels visibly, in visions and in dreams, spoke to Mary thru Gabriel, appeared to the shepherds in the field thru them, so why can't He appear to NT prophets thru angels, even today? ... Why is that so hard to believe? ... Is it because it hasn't happened to us personally, so therefore it can't be true? ... The book says that God is the same yesterday, today and tommorow ... but since He's now contending with our science drenched age He should alter Himself to reveal Himself in ways that we're comfortable with? ... God forbid, that's why He says He uses the foolish things to confound the wise ... Brother Mike, in all love and respect, you posted:((( Nothing earth shattering here, think Lars summed it up well. Also concur with what Robert and Greg 'sensed' in that creepy kind of feeling about angels and all the rest.)))I'll bet that's the same way the majority of Israel felt toward the words of Jeremiah, until Babylon lowered the boom on them ... Perhaps Brother Selvaraj isn't aware that in America he'd fare much better, if he said like Jeremiah, that "only" the Word of the Lord came to him, and not an angel as tall as the World Trades ... i wish that i could hip him to this and let him know that we Westeners are much to savy to believe something like that, and that when we don't believe one part of anything, we will throw the baby (the message) out with the bathwater (what we can't possibly believe) ... Someone earlier posted that they were from Missouri, the "show me" state ... We'll i think most of us Americans are from Missouri, including Christ Church, and i think He's about to show us all! ... i think that He's about to make us true .... believers .... '0) To me the proof of a true prophet of God is his message ... Is it one that points to God, toward true repentance, especially if that message appears at a time of dire wickedness ...

To try to prove the obvious with the sensational does not belong to the categories of the Father.A prophet, and there are quite a few at work these days, does not have to use any amplification, any fireworks or dramatic posturing. Plain words, veracity and the seal confirming God’s sending bring conviction. The poor man’s soup advertised and served at this table has been rolled back and forth from the kitchen too many times to warm a praying heart – angels or no angels helping in the distribution.Lars W

Perhaps Brother Selvaraj isn't aware that in America he'd fare much better, if he said like Jeremiah, that "only" the Word of the Lord came to him, and not an angel as tall as the World Trades ... i wish that i could hip him to this and let him know that we Westeners are much to savy to believe something like that, and that when we don't believe one part of anything, we will throw the baby (the message) out with the bathwater (what we can't possibly believe) ... Hi Rahman,No problem brother. Don't have any real qualms with this actually at all. Wouldn't even throw out the message (baby) with the bath water, for what the context is stating. I am actually more surprised that the lord has been so longsuffering towards us, especially the churches!Whether it is 'prophetic' in the sense of 'apperances' of the Lord or angels..who am I to dispute what he has 'seen'? I guess it just does throw up some flags as a natural reaction to all the 'prohecies' that abound in our time. Everybody seems to have one.But as to the context of what he was saying...doesn't sound any different than what we discuss around here often. Repentance!Think we all can be challenged by the things that we 'percieve' in our dreams, meditations, prayers and not to discount them out of hand, but...let me put it this way: If I was to tell of half of the things that cross this whacky brain of mine on any given day, you all would be calling for a straight jacket! :-)Hope that helps clarify a bit...

The copycat is a common animal.Prophet Uriah belonged to that brand – Jer. 26:20-23.He prophesied words similar to Jeremia, even against Jerusalem.He was prophesying truths, things which could be said to come from the throne but the fear of the Lord did not follow as a testimony to the origin. The copycat will break under pressure, and run.So did Elijah once, running in the wrong direction, served by angles during the detour.Our detours result in great books and testimonies which draw crowds.Angles served him while being wrong, the Lord working hard making him realise he was wrong. If angles serve us, we are absolutely sure we are right.The copycat prophesies according to common trend.Copycats produce mutual endorsement, constituting common words as truths to be accepted without testing.The genuine prophet has to stand alone with few friends and perhaps some admirers who do not dare to approach him.

Whoa, Chanin! You got us all thinking! I'm glad to see this thread. Robert, all your posts are a blessing. Wow, these younger brothers that the Lord is raising up!! You guys are an inspiration.Indeed, the Lord led me to SI too, during deep travail in my soul. I cannot concentrate except to beseech God to spare my family members and turn our lives around. It is so urgent the past year.Every time I get serious with God, He says the same thing: I am coming with judgment! Is your household safe? And I have to say "aaak, Lord, it's NOT!" And down I go, fasting and praying and crying.There is one man who has been preaching his heart out on this very thing, warning whoever will listen. This man's preaching has turned thousands of parent's hearts back to their homes and their children through a series of tapes on the godly home... Denny Kenaston. A few of his sermons are on this site. He's like David Wilkerson -- prophetic and clear. But he takes holiness, and the calling of godly family life to the highest degree. He is radically on-fire and while he does not call himself a prophet, he has the gift, no question!! His church Charity Christian Fellowship in Lancaster County, PA and their sister churches hold several Seminars each year. In Feb. 2004 they had a Men's Leadership Conference --- 600 men attended and Gerhard Du Toit prophesied that if revival breaks out, it may happen in one of these churches. Click on the mp3 of #3299 here:Gerhard 2/15/04My encounter with God last summer, where He stressed the verse "they were all together in one place, praying" --- I keep hoping and watching for any kind of gathering where seeking God can be first & foremost and we can seriously fall on our faces and pray. Those of you in Phoenix, did you attend the PrayerQuake with Jim Cymbala and the pastor from Uganda? I went Thurs. night, and was very turned-off by the hype, the lack of seriousness, and the control of the prayer time. I drove 3 hours expecting to pray, for crying out loud!!! (Didn't know about fellow SI'ers then) After the preaching I join a hundred or so people to pray in the sanctuary. I'm broken, on fire, fasted all week, the needs in my OWN life are very great, I'm anxious to see God move if He so desires "and let it begin with me". I don't know a soul, so I plop myself down on the floor near some other women. A lady sits down next to me and we talk briefly -- we're both in earnest, crying and we are sharing our hearts. We pray for a bit, then begin sharing again. Somebody 'in charge' comes by and says to us (and many others) "This sanctuary is to be used for prayer only. No visiting allowed." I'm shocked, and look up to heaven and say 'what is THIS?' I left shortly afterward, feeling very out-of-place. Other ladies in the rest-room were saying 'that was so rude of that lady to ask us to leave because we were talking! That's not very Christian'. In a gathering of nearly 2,000 people, from all over the west attending workshops for 3 days on prayer with these big names, I and many others are not allowed to pray as we see fit, we can't even stay in the ROOM.But loud tongues-speakers are encouraged, drowning out the small conversations people are 'not allowed' to have!!!!AAAk!!!!!!!Would anybody be willing to host a week-long "Something" that would meet this need? I'm still looking into doing something here, altho the local paper did NOT run my notice about "revival prayer and discussion group forming". It was supposed to run last Friday. My husband and I have no church backing of any kind here, so we question the wisdom of holding an event here. But then again, I will do anything God asks, even if it seems weird or out-of-place. :-) Great moves of God in the past often started in annual, cross-denominational conventions --- Keswick, Sialkot, Llandridod (sp?), oh my the list is endless. Zac Poonen will be preaching in Ohio in Aug. and I don't know if we can make that, but it's a start.Looking at the calendar... New Year's Day falls on a Saturday. It's the tail-end of the Christmas - winter break season... would anybody come to Arizona right after Christmas for 4 days to a week of meetings? (Dec. 27 to Jan 2?) With Friday being New Year's Eve and a natural for all-night prayer... whole families welcome, all food provided in some sort of low-key setting where we're away from city lights and hub-bub and cell phones. Suggestions?I'm willing to do anything to facilitate. Please contact me at the email address in my profile.Mrs. Fred

Whoa, Chanin! You got us all thinking! I'm glad to see this thread. Yes, you did and that can't be bad. You put it out for readers to 'discern' and some have done so publically and some, no doubt, privately.Initially I was hesitant to express my own feelings earlier in the thread, but I think it be best if we didn't polarize but listened to what the saints say, and then make our own judgments.Mu hesitancy to make my own comments was based on the fact that I have learned how little it takes to start a 'feeding frenzy'. The important thing in these areas is to prayerfully and thoughtfully consider and then to make a decision, your own decision; party reactions are to be avoided whenever possible.

Can you please give us any additional info (links) about the group of unsavory people you said this brother is a part off? ... i'd like to know more ... Here are some that leave me wondering. I don't know if they're related to any of this discussion, but they disturb me:Elijah ListCindy JacobsArizona Gatekeepers: the Prophetic Network of ArizonaI'm leery of any prophet who is prophesying "for" another land or congregation, without any personal connection. Cindy Jacobs is an example. She's invited to Phoenix a few times a year. She 'receives prophecies' about Arizona, thousands of people, just flying into the airport. Read her latest Arizona prophecy here:Cindy Jacobs Propecy of 6/26/04This stuff grabbed me for awhile -- hey, who WOULDN'T love to see revival! But all this concern about land and money and stadiums and prosperity, on and on.... for me, it's fake, it's made-up, it's not the way God has acted in the past! Look at Acts, look at the church in China, look at any group of Christians who've had to risk their lives to be Christians. God forbid that we CLAIM property for God!! Genuine prophets of God are GIVING UP property for God!!Again, I'm grateful for this thread, to expose this stuff and wave that red flag. Prayer is good, yes! And I want to pray with every Christian who desires to pray, and not quench the Spirit! But if there is not personal brokenness over our OWN sin, our OWN poor state before the Lord, then lemme out. If I can't kneel on the floor and cry for my own wretched heart, then I'm in the wrong place.~Mrs. Fred

(From Gerhard Du Toit) ---"...The very first time God broke into a gathering... in my homeland in Africa... I was part of an organization that had a strong stand on a holy life, a commitment to prayer, and a strong conviction that souls need to be saved... it was an Easter convention, and Saturday night came... I would hear speaking about the spirit of God breaking through...I was a young evangelist and I didn't understand this concept... on the western Cape of South Africa there were about 600 people, very God-fearing conservative Christians, at this campground.... the services were in a large tent... Saturday night came and the leader of the camp said "We are going to ask God to break into this convention. We can't go through meeting after meeting without meeting with God. We need to trust God to break into our hearts."We gathered together and we began to climb underneath the burden of God in prayer... praying THROUGH, persevering in prayer...I will never forget Sunday morning... the missionary speaker gave a very simple message... about halfway through his message, suddenly the Spirit of God came --- there was nothing strange about it --- a wave of brokenness and conviction swept over the tent. I saw very old, conservative, precious, God-fearing people, one after the other, begin to bend down into the dust and grass, before God. I was at the door of the tent, amazed by this wave of conviction of sin, the revelation of coming short of the glory of God.There was an old man in his 70's... he was knowledgable about such things... he shook me by the shoulder as I wept and he said "Young man, this is what happens when God comes."

Reading that long thing, I'm not so sure. If 9/11 was a punishment from God, I think He would have punished Iran, Sudan, China, and North Korea first. All of those countries persecute Christians.Please don't take this statement as a "Oh, yeah? Well, those guys are worse than us!" argument. Just remember the story with God sparing the city (for awhile) on account of Lot.

Don't you believe any of the false prophets who preached to you after 9/11 saying it was not a judgment of God.... Two days before 9/11 happened, a dear friend of mine, a very saintly prophetof God, was taken up in the spirit to Heaven.Some years ago I was in Kiev; it was about 2 years after Chernobyl. In many church meetings the people flocked to the front for prayer for healing. My interpreter said most of these prayer requests are linked to Chernobyl. They have a headache but they are afraid it is more than that. They have stomach ache but they are afraid it is more than that. Birth deformities in animals and humans were already being seen. A sense of fear still pervaded. I met a KGB major who had attended Chernobyl; he was not expected to live long. His son was a believer. I came to love these people very much.While I was there a self-billed 'prayer-warrior' from the USA arrived in town. He explained how they had been praying that the Lord would 'rain hammer blows on the Soviet Union'. Chernobyl, he said, is the first.Do you have any idea how the people of Kiev felt? What kind of a God is that who would do such a thing? The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ? I think not. Unless I am mistaken in my most basic understandings of the scripture... God was not judging the USA on 9/11. Nor was He raining 'hammer blows' on the Soviet Union. I think to say so is slanderous, which in this context is a legal word for blasphemy.(occasionally someone discovers how to rattle my cage!)

Thanks for some perspective Ron.I most certainly have failed here to bring this back to memory. Right after 911 recall the big division over whether this was or wasn't a 'judgment of God', my first reactions were much the same as you have stated here. Yet, I do find that I can be a little to flippant perhaps in throwing out things as I did here earlier and have done so in the past. Not trying to be wishy-washy, it certainly does appear that "we are asking for it" if I can put it that way.It does raise another interesting batch of questions. Are we guilty of trying to rain down judgment on our own heads? Will God still judge us as a nation in a manner that was more common in the 'Old Testament' style? Certainly there is a 'final' cleansing of the earth coming, the Day of the Lord, but the musings that come about don't necessarily seem to be talking about that...And yes, what of this that Ron brings up?"There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."Luk 13:1-5 I don't pretend to know and if I have postulated that I have in the past, I was clearly wrong..

Will God still judge us as a nation in a manner that was more common in the 'Old Testament' style?Perhaps it is time to discuss this broader question. Does God 'judge the nations as He did in Old Testament times'? This is a 'given' to many preachers and contributors to sermonindex, but is it so?Is there any indication from the New Testament that God is currently 'judging' nation states?

Recently I heard an interesting interpretation of the part in Romans 1 about God "giving" nations over to sins like homosexuality: that, while Sodom was punished for its sins (prominently, homosexuality) by fire and brimstone; the U.S. is being punished for its sins (perhaps prominently the inexcusable apathy and lethargy of a church given lavish material and spiritual blessing) by a surge of being "given" over to a reprobate mind. Thus, we shouldn't expect fire and brimstone to rain from the skies as the homosexuals run free: the homosexuals running free are the "fire and brimstone."I'd prefer the fire and brimstone, personally.

the U.S. is being punished for its sinsbut what is the US in biblical terms? I know the great concensus is that God is active in judgment and that nations come under God's blessing or His curse, but where does this idea come from?Can the US be 'judged' as a nation state? I know that United Nations has taken on this role of nation-state judge but I question what authoroity the United Nations has, biblically.In Old Testament times Israel was a church, an ethnic group, and at times a nation state. These are not synonyms but they show that one group of people can have multiple roles. I am brother, husband, father, grandfather... but these are not synonyms and I may succeed in ones of these roles while failing in another. Nation states that set themselves against the nation state of Israel came in range for God's blessing or judgments, but it seemed to hinge entirely on their relationship to Israel as the 'apple of God's eye'. If the modern nation state of Israel is the legitimate heir of the ancient nation state of Israel AND the covenant between God and the people group were still in operation we might expect similar results now as then. But the people group covenant of Sinai is no longer operational and it is a question that needs asking as to whether or not the modern Israeli state is the restoration of the old nation-state of Israel.The people group called Israel entered a Covenant with God at Sinai; that covenant had both blessings and responsibilities. But the Sinai Covenant ended with the cry 'it is finished'. Its law cannot operate without its priesthood. For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also. (Heb 7:12 NASB) The Priesthood was an integral part of Israel's law, without the Levitical priesthood there could be no 'people' with God in their midst.What does the New Testament have to say about all this? Not a word. There is no NT doctrine pertaining to God's contemporary judgment of nation-states. So where has this idea come from that God will punish the US? (btw a hundred years ago it was the UK (you rememer the UK? we were the big guys before the US arrived on the block) which the preachers said would come under God's active punishments)I have to say that I can't understand this teaching at all, and its not for the want of trying. Some of the folk I respect most hold these truths as self-evident, but I just can't see them. Can anyone help out there?

Does God 'judge the nations as He did in Old Testament times'? This is a 'given' to many preachers and contributors to sermonindex, but is it so?We know for certain that Israel was judged with the destruction of the Temple in 70 CE under Titus and later with the Bar Kochba rebellion in 135. So great was that disaster that the Jews were expelled from Jerusalem and the city was renamed Aelia Capitolina. This fulfilled a significant portion of Matthew 24. How did the Pharisee's respond? They moved to Yavney (Jamnia) and took over Judaism by starting Rabbinic Judaism. They utterly userped the authority of God by suggesting that only the Rabbi's have the authority to interpret scripture. They even went back and nullified the authority of an audible voice from Heaven (Bath Kol) in order to maintain their authority. They responded to what happened by utterly shutting God out. They would not receive a word from a prophet and reserved the right to interpret a dream that may have come from God. The Rabbi's since then have been the authority- not God (so they think). The StrumaIt is also contended by some Jews (Zionist Jews) that Britian was judged by God for the way she handled the Jews that were trying to enter Israel in WW II. they suggested to me in class discussions that had they allowed the Jews (which no nation was willing to take as refugees) they would STILL be the world dominating power. As Bro. Ron points out, they were the big guys on the block and then some. They were WAY powerful as a nation. However, the ships were being turned back by the Royal Navy that were filled with Jews trying to flee the Holocaust. The Arabs in that area as well were cutting deals here and there and causing thousands of Jews to be lost in Nazi concentration camps. Did God judge? Only He knows that I suppose. Some thoughts on NEO-MARCIONISM that may aid in our discussion. Clearly Paul states that the things written in the Old Testament were written for our admonishion and our warning (I Corinthians 10:11). It was Marcion that tried to suggest that the Old Testament God was the bad God and the New Testament God was a good God. He found in 45:7 the claim made by Yahweh (Jehovah), ‘I make weal and create woe, I am the Lord, who do all these things,’ and this was fundamental to his interpretation of Christianity. How, Marcion reasoned, could an evil tree bring forth good fruit? So he concluded that there must be two Gods: the Creator God of the Old Testament, who was characteristically a God of Law, who involved himself in contradictory courses of action, and was cruel. The 'Supreme God', Marcion contended, was a God of Love and was evidenced in Jesus Christ. Marcion was dualistic, therefor his 'Christ' was docetic (he only appeared to be a man, because Marcion considered matter to be evil - the creation of the lower Demiurge). Marcion was condemed as a heretic.This issue is of great importance to understading how to approach Jews in sharing the Gospel. Is the God of the Old Testament the God of the New? Are we out from under all the laws of the Old Testament (antinomianism)? A glance through the book of Revelation reveals God as more awesome and fearful than anything revealed in the Old Testament. The heavens and the earth fled away from Him. That is why the book of Revelation is known at least in word- by even the worst of pagans. If they have heard of the bible- they are likely to know just one book in it- REVELATION. It has that reputation. The New Testament speaks of a God of judgment that will destroy body and soul in Hell. He will SMITE the nations as Revelation tells us. Blood approaching the horses bridles is an awesome thought. As Ravinhill says, Revelation is a book of Majesty, Mystery, and Misery. The New Testament reveals a wrath of God for those who trod under foot the blood of His Son and declares a more sorer punishment for them than anything revealed in the Old Testament. Men that would seek death and not find it? As I see it- as God increased the revelation of His love for man- He also increased the revelation of His judgment and wrath upon those who reject that love proportionally. This is true for individuals and nations. The times of ignorance God winked at and if He is not winking now then what are we to make of His response to a nations highhandedness? Would it be less now that He is not winking anymore? With revelation comes responsibility. that is why America is in so much trouble. She is sinning with way too much LIGHT. God Bless,-Robert

Hi RobertWe know for certain that Israel was judged with the destruction of the Temple in 70 CE under Titus and later with the Bar Kochba rebellion in 135.Yes, for me that would still come under the heading of God's final judgment his own people. (I can see judgment in the church too in 1 Corinthians 11 as a contemporary phenomena). The destruction of the temple was the fulfillment of Christ's word against it, and the premonition of the high priests;If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation. (Joh 11:48 KJV)It is also contended by some Jews (Zionist Jews) that Britian was judged by God for the way she handled the Jews that were trying to enter Israel in WW II.Yes, there are some Christians who believe this too, but then there ar e some Jews who believe God sent the holocaust as a punishment on the Jews for trying to establish a nation-state before the coming of the Messiah. I regard both of these as hearsay, and without biblical basis.This issue is of great importance to understading how to approach Jews in sharing the Gospel. Is the God of the Old Testament the God of the New? Are we out from under all the laws of the Old Testament (antinomianism)?More exactly, I think, antinomianism is to be against moral law of any kind, not only the Decalogue. I don't think we are 'out from under all the laws of the Old Testamen' because many of us were never 'in under those laws'. I don't keep any of the Old Testament Sinai laws (that usually gets people listening :-?); as I walk in the Spirit I 'fulfill the righteous requirements of that law' but not by endeavouring to keep the letter. The New Testament speaks of a God of judgment that will destroy body and soul in Hell. He will SMITE the nations as Revelation tells us.This is not contemporary judgment but future judgment. I have no doubt about a future judgment, but even then the nations are surely not judged as nation-states. How can a nation-state be judged as an entity when it has contained both saints and sinners.Marcion was condemed as a heretic.I'm not sure that I see the significance of Marcion to our discussion. I know of him, of course, but I am not suggesting that there are two Gods, only two testaments, and that the way God behaved towards the nation-states who touched 'the apple of his eye' in the Old Testament is not an indication of the way that preachers suggest that God will bring contemporary judgment upon a nation that rejects His truth in our own day.I think that underlying this discussion there is the idea that God has particular plans for particular nations, and that to deny that plan is to bring present-tense judgment upon that nation. This is closely allied to the idea that God has a territorial strategy and that the geographical land of Israel(Palestine) is part of that plan. I do not hold this view and I don't subsribe to the view that God will bless the nation-states that support the modern Israeli nation-state.I suppose that fundamental to my understanding of judgment is Paul's comments in Romans. I agree with the comments about sin being the consequence of sin, but I don't think this can be applied to discrete territories. (Here's a bit of historial trivia... maps are in existence that show that George III was willing to concede much more territory than was demanded in US independence negotiations. The maps were kept hidden for over a hundred years in fear that they would cause more unrest; but show that George was willing to have conceded a further 100 miles north. In such a scenario would the judgment expected on the US have also reached a further 100 miles north?)Paul's comment in Romans is And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; (Rom 2:3-5 KJV) Treasuring up for a day of wrath and judgment and a contemporary judgement don't seem compatible to my way of thinking.

Hi Bro. Ron,My thinking as pertains to Marcionism is in light of the discussion as a whole in that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. The wrath of God is still revealed from Heaven against all unrighteousness of men, etc. I don't see any reason biblically to think that God has changed in His approach to dealing with nations or even cities (such as Sodom). It is chronicled in the Old Testament enough for us to understand a pattern. nineveh was certainly not under the Old Covenant, but God judged them later on after Jonah preached. As Richard Owens Roberts points out a nation is judged when the measure of their iniquity is FULL (Genesis 15:16). This is a common teaching in scripture from Genesis onward. We see Jesus use this phraseology in Matthew 23... So that ye bear witness of yourselves that ye are sons of those who slew the prophets: and *ye*, fill ye up the measure of your fathers. There is as Robert's puts it, "A legal limit on sin." He writes, "The Legal Limit on Sin (I Thessalonians 2:16) - "Every entity [person, church, nation] has a measure of sin allotted to it.  When the measure is full, [that entity] will endure the wrath of God to the utmost."  As he sets forth this doctrine and its implications, both personal and corporate, Roberts exhorts us to inquire where we are with respect to God's "legal limit on sin." God Bless,-Robert

My thinking as pertains to Marcionism is in light of the discussion as a whole in that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. The wrath of God is still revealed from Heaven against all unrighteousness of men, etc.But as has been pointed out in Keith's post this 'revelation of God's wrath' is seen in his abandonment of the race and individuals to sin. This is not the kind of judgment that people are thinking of when they speak of God's impending judgment on a nation-state. nineveh was certainly not under the Old Covenant, but God judged them later on after Jonah preached.Yes, I had thought of Nineveh, but its association with Israel is what brought it into range for summary, contemporary judgment at a late stage. It is interesting that Jonah's complaint was that 'I didn't want to preach judgment because I knew you would spare them'.Roberts exhorts us to inquire where we are with respect to God's "legal limit on sin." I'm not sure that I like the concept of a 'legal limit on sin'. I was under the impression that God had a zero-tolerance programme in force. ;-) We still haven't defined 'nation'. The Hebrew 'goiim' and the Greek 'ethnos' both have people groups in mind and not nation-states. If you look at a map of the world you will frequently find countries with straight line borders. They are a sure sign of a British bureaucrat, who has never been further than the south coast, deciding where one nation started and another ended. (I am often embarassed at the arrogance of my forebears!) When Paul spoke in Athens And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: (Act 17:26-27 KJV) he uses the word 'ethnos' which is 'race' not nationhood.The current defence claims of Sadam Hussein are interesting biblically. He claims to be the State. This is anathema to democrats (not the party but the political idealogy) but we need to remind ourselves that democracy is really a very modern notion in its current form. Sadam (and you will surely know that I am not defending him) is on much older ground. Democracy says its presidents are the servants of the State and can thus be held accountable. Sadam says the State is the servant of the president and the president cannot be held accountable. (btw we had a civil war over here in 1642 on this interesting point. Sadam could use Charles I's script if he only but realised it.) Here is an interesting clue as to how God sees things;Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory. And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold. (Dan 2:37-38 KJV) Many prophecy students say this is the kingdom of Babylon; God says it is Nebuchadnezzar himself. As the scripture says the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom... God held Nebuchadnezzar responsible for his 'nation'.My point in the above ramble is that the Bible does not have in mind nation-states as we now understand them and therefore does not speak to them in blessing or threat. Consequently the idea of God bringing a summary judgment upon such an entity is missing from the scripture.

Brother Ron wrote:"What does the New Testament have to say about all this? Not a word. There is no NT doctrine pertaining to God's contemporary judgment of nation-states. So where has this idea come from that God will punish the US? (btw a hundred years ago it was the UK (you rememer the UK? we were the big guys before the US arrived on the block) which the preachers said would come under God's active punishments)"I believe the treatment of seperating the OT and the NT are the works of men. I believe the Holy Scriptures are one continuous revelation of God, Son, and Holy Spirit. The revelation of God given to us in the OT truly tells us who He is. As already mentioned, He does not change. The book of Daniel clearly defines how God views "nation state." David wrote: "The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool." Acts 2:34-35. The saints prayed boldly," Why did the nations rage, and the people plot vain things? The kings of the earth took their stand, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord and against His Christ." Acts 4:25-26. Does this not cover all ages? In ChristJeff

If you would like more information about the doctrine Mr. Roberts expounds concerning the "legal limit on sin" here are links to the pamphlet and audio tape.PamphletTape(Scroll down to "tapes in print")Jonathan Edwards preached on this as well.Edward's SermonI believe the "legal limit on sin" would tie into the "sin that leads to death".

The book of Daniel clearly defines how God views "nation state." David wrote: "The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool." Acts 2:34-35. The saints prayed boldly," Why did the nations rage, and the people plot vain things? The kings of the earth took their stand, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord and against His Christ." Acts 4:25-26. Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things? (Act 4:25 KJV). This is my point; the word translated 'nations' (ethnos) is not nation-states but people-groups (the word we get 'ethnic' from).ethnosThayer Definition:1) a multitude (whether of men or of beasts) associated or living together1a) a company, troop, swarm2) a multitude of individuals of the same nature or genus2a) the human family3) a tribe, nation, people groupI believe the treatment of seperating the OT and the NT are the works of men. I believe the Holy Scriptures are one continuous revelation of God, Son, and Holy Spirit. The revelation of God given to us in the OT truly tells us who He is. As already mentioned, He does not changeIt is one continuous revelation, but it is a continuous and progressive revelation. By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit;(Eph 3:4-5 NASB) and some parts are now past their sell-by date; Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. (Gal 3:19 KJV) the law... was added ...till the Seed should come...

But as has been pointed out in Keith's post this 'revelation of God's wrath' is seen in his abandonment of the race and individuals to sin.This is but one arrow in God's quiver (as Matthew Henry calls it). God is never at a loss for a means to punish a wicked people- His quiver is always full. It is certainly not how God dealt with Ananias and Sapphira or Herod for that matter. They were smote dead instantly. So judgment of this kind is for Christian's and Non-Christians and in the New Covenant period. I don't know that we can accurately compare the nations and kingdoms as they were known in the Old Testament to today. Your point on Nebuchadnezzar is well taken. As for God not tolerating any sin this is true. But the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah and in other generations. When the sins of the people reached unto heaven God sent violent judgments. These are the things that the world is willingly ignorant of and convince themselves that all things are going to continue as they always have. They will not. Their iniquity will fill up and God will send judgment. Which ever arrow His hands sees fit to draw to the bow- will be their fate. As for the 'cup of iniquity' issue. I listed a few of the passages that refer to this phenomena. When I compile the related passages in my head I see it happening somthing like this (if you please): Unequity (Iniquity) is equal to sin time’s light (U=SxL). The wrath of God is revealed when the ‘measure’ of the iniquity is filled up. Each time a person, city, nation, etc. sins and refuses to repent- they are deepening their debt or in other words- filling their cup. That sin is ‘valued’ or ‘charged’ based upon the amount of light in which it was committed. It would seem to me also that denying that you sinned would add more weight to the cup of iniquity. Maybe there are many variables we are not looking at. It is quite a sobering thought though. When the sins (by another analogy) reach unto heaven- God's judgment comes. God Bless,-Robert

Ron wrote:"It is one continuous revelation, but it is a continuous and progressive revelation. By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit;(Eph 3:4-5 NASB)"Paul was given a dispensation of grace, and he was called by God to reveal the mysteries of Christ to the gentiles. Paul states this in Ephesians 3:6, "that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel." I believe many take Paul's thoughts out of context. Many try to dismiss this thought that up until this point the mysteries of Christ belonged only to Israel. Now the mysteries of Christ through Paul would be made known to all nations. You see the mysteries were spoken of by the prophets,("and the prophets in the Spirit.")Ron wrote:and some parts are now past their sell-by date; Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. (Gal 3:19 KJV) the law... was added ...till the Seed should come...The covenant made to Abraham preceded the law given to Moses through the angels. The law given to Moses was given to only teach man what sin was. The law taught Israel that they didn't know how to be righteous. It taught them that they needed to seek God in faith. They needed to listen to His voice. The law did not end the covenant made with Abraham. The law did not put the covenant made with Abraham on hold. The promise to Abraham existed through out the time that Israel was commanded to obey the 613 commandments. Ron wrote:"Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things? (Act 4:25 KJV). This is my point; the word translated 'nations' (ethnos) is not nation-states but people-groups (the word we get 'ethnic' from).ethnos"Is the United States a nation state? We can disagree about words, but how does Scripture speak to the judgements of Tyre and Sidon, Egypt, Assyria, Medes and Persians, and Greece? "And four great beasts came up from the sea, each different from the other. The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings. I watched till its wings were plucked off; and it was lifted up from the earth and made to stand on two feet like a man, and a man's heart was given to it. And suddenly another beast, a second, like a bear. It was raised up on one side, and had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth. And they said thus to it: "Arise, devour much flesh!....Daniel 7. This speaks to the nature of man's rule. This speaks to the history of man ruling over man. Listen to what Elihu says in Job 34:21-28, "For His eyes are on the ways of man, and He sees al his steps. There is no darkness nor shadow of death where the workers of iniquity may hide themselves. For He need not further consider a man, that he should go before God in judgement. He breaks in pieces mighty men without inquiry, and sets others in their place. Therefore He knows their works; He overthrows them in the night, and they are crushed, He strikes them as wicked men in the open sight of others, because they turned back from Him, and would not consider any of His ways."..."When He gives quiteness, who then can make trouble? And when He hides His face, who then can see Him whether it is against a nation or a man alone?" Job 34:29I believe this speaks to all His creation.In Christ Jeff

Unequity (Iniquity) is equal to sin time’s light (U=SxL). The wrath of God is revealed when the ‘measure’ of the iniquity is filled up. Each time a person, city, nation, etc. sins and refuses to repent- they are deepening their debt or in other words- filling their cup. That sin is ‘valued’ or ‘charged’ based upon the amount of light in which it was committed. It would seem to me also that denying that you sinned would add more weight to the cup of iniquity. Maybe there are many variables we are not looking at. It is quite a sobering thought though. When the sins (by another analogy) reach unto heaven- God's judgment comes.Hi Robert,this is a fascinating theory but I am still unconvinced. We have entered an era of grace. In this period of amnesty, it seems to me, God does not initiate judgment against individuals in this present age, but The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: (2Pe 2:9 KJV). Judgment does still obtain in the church and Ananias and Sapphira, and 1 Cor 11 are examples of this. There are two exceptions to my theory; Herod and Elymas. These two are outside the church but they are very focussed enemies of the church and I have wondered whether in these early days God made an example of them as He did of Ananias and Sapphira who were in the church. A & S constitute the first known sin in the church and I see some similarities with Numbers 15:32ff.Let me tell you why I began to question the received wisdom of evangelicalism. 30 years ago I was in Turkey. At that time there were less than 10 known Turk believers, but many Armenian believers. However, the Armenian believers would not witness to Turks because 'God's judgment was on the Turks' for the destruction of the Armenians in the early part of the 20th Century. This was an outworking of the 'God is judging because of sin' principle. It was hard work to persuade the Armenians to go 'against God's judgment' and bring the God's love to their ancient enemy.Many years later I was working with a group of Ugandans. Uganda had had a cycle of Milton Obote, followed by Idi Amin, followed by another dose of Milton Obote. Hundreds of thousands, if not millions, died because of these men. The Ugandan believers said God is punishing Uganda for its idolatry. My heart ached for them and for the reputation of God.Then there is the 'christian' scenario which goes along this theme. I am making up the detail but you will follow the story... Our postman is a Satanist and he knows I am a Christian. He drops my mail in the mud, but the other day God judged him and he fell of his bike and fell in the mud... So Idi Amin sits in the sun in the lap of luxury in Saudi Arabia, havning murdered countless numbers and engaged in cannibalism, meanwhile God pushes the postman off his bike. :-( I feel a lack of perspective here to say the least. By and large the world's most wicked men have died in their beds, and millions die in Sudan and Ethiopia of hunger and disease. Where is the justice? cries the world. The only sense I can make of this is that judgment is suspended because The Lord knoweth how... to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: (2Pe 2:9 KJV) as Paul said to the Athenians He hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom He hath ordained... (Acts 17:31)

Brother Ron you wrote:" We have entered an era of grace. " I am sorry if it seems I am badgering you incessantly, but the Light gives light to every man coming into the world, John 1:9. God does not change, without His grace all would have fallen into the bottomless pit. Yet we know that Enoch pleased God, we know that Abel was a prophet. We know that Noah walked with God. This is not possible for depraved man. Only by the Messiah could this have come about. All grace comes through Christ. No where is Scripture does it say otherwise. "He is the image of the invisible God, the firsborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers..." Colossains 1:15. All these govenments, all these thrones, all who are judged fall under the dominion of our Lord and Savior. "Kiss the Son, lest He be angry, and you perish in the way, When His wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him." Psalm 2:12In ChristJeff

I am sorry if it seems I am badgering you incessantly, Don't worry about it. I know my posts often provoke you. Our views on many issues are incompatible and it is inevitable that we shall frequently collide in our conclusions. I have no wish or intention to change your views, but as I have opportunity I will give an answer for the hope that is in me, with meekness and fear, having a good conscience... The fundamental difference is that that I believe that although Enoch, Abraham walked with God by faith without which is impossible to please God, there are differences in what was available for Abraham etc and what is available for the saints of the New Covenant. Paul refers in Romans 5 to this grace wherein we stand and Peter of the grace that should come to you. I hold that the grace in which we stand is different to that in which Abraham stood, and that the 'coming grace' of which the prophets were enlightened has now arrived.This is all the work of the Holy Spirit who was with them of those older covenants, and in them of this Covenant.

Ron,Continuing on at the end of Romans 5, "Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound; Romans 5:20Paul makes no distinction of time in this verse. He says the law identified sin, and where sin abounded, grace did much more abound. Isn't Paul refering to the time of when the covenant was established on Mount Sinai?In ChristJeff

philologos wrote:This is closely allied to the idea that God has a territorial strategy and that the geographical land of Israel (Palestine) is part of that plan. I do not hold this view and I don't subscribe to the view that God will bless the nation-states that support the modern Israeli nation-state.Some of the folk I respect most hold these truths as self-evident, but I just can't see them. Can anyone help out there?I’ll give it a go.The blessing given, that I will bless those who bless you etc, was given to Abraham before the law, so mount Sinai and the cross are not factors here as a basis for receiving the promise. The LORD appeared to Abram and said, "To your offspringA I will give this land." (Gen 12:7) The whole land of Canaan, where you are now an alien, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God." (Gen 17:8). The LORD appeared to Isaac and said, "Do not go down to Egypt; live in the land where I tell you to live. Stay in this land for a while, and I will be with you and will bless you. For to you and your descendants I will give all these lands and will confirm the oath I swore to your father Abraham (Gen 26:2,3). May he give you and your descendants the blessing given to Abraham, so that you may take possession of the land where you now live as an alien(Gen 28:4). "I am the LORD, the God of your father Abraham and the God of Isaac. I will give you and your descendants the land on which you are lying(Gen 28:13). I include these scriptures to tie the people of Israel to the land physically. For from these three men came the whole shooting match in regards to covenants and temple worship etc. So it would be safe to say anyone who follows the Torah and doesn't eat pork, would be considered a Jew, and being a Jew an inheritor to the whole physical land of Israel, even if they are living under the Old Covenant.The bible tells us that, theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen. Rom 9:4, 5 So the Patriarchs are part of their natural lineage so the blessing given to Abraham, whether they hold to the law or not, still stands because this promise was given before the law came into affect. That is why there is great contention over whether Abraham was the Father of Islam or Judaism/Christianity. If I as a Christian believe the word then I must believe that anyone who calls himself a Jew has a biblical mandate to the entire land promised in scripture. This has got nothing to do with the consequences of their sin, or whether or not they receive the messiah. This is a literal thing that God said Abraham and his descendants would receive. He confirmed it to Jacob who is the father of the twelve. That there is still so much prophecy hanging over them as a people, indicates that there is still a dealing that God has for them. So tying it to this thread, if God has promised the Jews that land, and some outside force tries to tamper with his land, and with the people in that land, then surely God will take action. For he said, May those who curse you be cursed and those who bless you be blessed." (Gen 27:29,30).I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse(Gen 12:3).So partitioning the land of Israel and given it to people who worship a demon will evoke some response. On America being punished for her sin is another thing that has been covered adequately in other posts. The issue of where America stands, in fact where any nation stands in regard to Israel and the land will bring blessings or curses based upon the promise given to Abraham and his descendants.I hope this helps. Zeke

Philologos, Thanks for all the time, effort, and patience you've shown in this thread. Your posts seem to be consistently well done. I am pretty new to this whole paradigm being discussed in this thread, but after reading most of it, I thought this one point deserved a comment from you. Rookie (I think) wrote:"Is the United States a nation state? We can disagree about words, but how does Scripture speak to the judgements of Tyre and Sidon, Egypt, Assyria, Medes and Persians, and Greece?"What are you thoughts on that? I mean, it seems like these are specific cities and "nation states" as we might say.

Just to throw out a few semi-random (and hopefully relevant) thoughts:Were not many of the "nations" referred to in the O.T. simply the descendants of a certain person (i.e. Israel = Jacob, Edom = Esau, Ammonites = Ammon, Moabites = Moab, etc)? Granted, I don't recall such a patriarch for, say, Egypt or Chaldea, but is it known whether they were not thus organized? If this is the Biblical idea of a "nation" to be judged, the U.S. doesn't really qualify.And about whether the U.S. is being "punished" for its sins:Romans 121 For when they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God, nor were thankful, but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man, and to birds and fourfooted beasts and creeping things.24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies among themselves.25 They changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women changed the natural use into that which is against nature.27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men, working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense for their error which was meet.28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind to do those things which are not fitting,29 being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness, full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity. They are whisperers,30 backbiters, haters of God, spiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,31 without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affections, implacable, unmerciful.32 And knowing the judgment of God, that those who commit such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but have pleasure in those who do them.Three times here God "reacts" to certain wickedness of "them" (groups, not necessarily nations, perhaps even the whole of humanity, dunno about that) and "gave them" over to yet more wickedness (perhaps a withdrawal of certain kinds of depravity-inhibiting grace), and once it even says "a reprobate mind," which (I think) many have interpreted as a state in which the reprobate have lost much or all of their moral judgment to the extent that they are beyond possibility of repentance and thus salvation.Certainly not the more direct sorts of "punishments" found in the O.T., more like "standing out of the way" and ceasing to shield the particularly nettling sinners from the fuller consequences of sin.Edit- about the Iniquity = Sin * Light theory, it is interesting... I have this idea in my mind of the U.S. head of state ordering some accounting division to calculate the nation's "iniquity height," and some days later receiving a memo from said division stating "Mr. President, we are in serious trouble." :)

Continuing on at the end of Romans 5, "Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound; Romans 5:20Hi rookieFour times in Romans 5 Paul uses (in the Greek) the phrase 'much more'(5:9,10,15,17) and then at this point 'superabounding'. The whole emphasis of this chapter is the 'much more' of the gospel. He is pointing out 3 distinct eras; From Adam to Moses, then The Law (Sinai)and finally Grace's Reign. In one sense these three periods are mutually exclusive (I know you won't like that but I have to say it to explain this point) but there are connections between them too. In Adam (v12) Sin entered, through Moses Law entered (v20) Where sin reigned the law restrained and measured it. but that was termporary as Galatians makes clear. Grace now reigns. Sin and Grace cannot co-reign.

I’ll give it a go... I hope this helps. Zeke this is well and concisely expressed. It deserves a considered answer and I am packing for a family holiday. If my wife finds I have spent the morning talking to my friends at sermonindex rather that packing I shall have some serious explaining to do. So I will get back to you.Can I just tease you a little by saying that Israel, Abraham's Descendants and Jews are not synonimous terms. You might have a person who would qualify for all of them but there would be some who would not. Paul's comment in Romans 2:28,29) is a starting point. But the presence of people like Caleb, the son of Jephuneh the Kenizite needs to be considered. If you trace him through the record you will find that he was not a blood descendant of Israel although he seems to be part of the people of Israel and was the representative of the tribe of Judah and an inheritor of the land. Think about it and I'll get back to you.

Hi Folks,I'm going slightly off topic here to go back to some of the earlier discussion in this thread, and I haven't read all of the messages here yet because I wanted to stop and comment on one point. First, to comment on the original post: I think a lot of the things the man said are true, but I'm extremely wary of anyone who would claim such a "connection" with our Lord Himself, and His Heavenly Host. If such things happen today, why not to men like Tozer, Ravenhill, etc. who preached the same things for years before Mr. Suhndar. Also, it seems to me that claiming "Apostolic" ministry on his website is sketchy. I have met men such as Bobby Moore, Bill MacLeod, and T.W. Hunt who walk closer to the Lord than most, and the Lord Jesus has never "physically" appeared to them. Have they sensed His presence so strongly that it put them in fear and trembling? Certainly. But personal appearances to select individuals? I don't see it in Scripture. The Apostolic ministry in the early Church was to set the foundations of the Church, and that foundation is already laid, not to be built upon by any new apostles. I'll start by just stating my position on the "Jews and Christians" topic. I believe we are in the Church Age, and that the true Israel is not evident in our world today in the same way as before Christ. I do not believe the Church is a new Israel. I believe that they are still God's chosen people, but that God's dealings with humanity is not centered around the Jews at this time. I believe He still has future "plans" for them, ie: I think the 144,000 during the tribulation could well be Jews, but that He is currently working with His Church, the Bride of His Son. So, on to what I really wanted to say... The promises of prosperity and health in the OT are, as far as I understand, limited to the Jews of the OT. God has never promised these same types of blessings to the Church, rather He has "blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ." Moreover, He tells us repeatedly that we will suffer, experience tribulation, peril, "the sword", persecution, etc. In my experience in the churches of North America, (and I have been to many different churches due to my experience with a traveling ministry), it seems to me that many western Christians equate material posession as spiritual blessing. Where is that doctrine in the NT? How does that explain everyone east of Western Europe? Some might say that those eastern nations are poor because of the fact that they have been pagan for so long, but if the material=spiritual factor is true, shouldn't the believers in those places be rising above financially? The people I'm talking about are not "health and wealth prosperity gospel" people, they are the average North American professing Christian who seem to think that when America was formed as a country it became the new Eden! I immensely appreciate the fact that America has a rich spiritual heritage, and yet I wonder how many of the "founding fathers" and original pilgrims were true believers, or simply moralists who recognized that God's moral laws were the only realistic way for a country to functionally maintain order. All that to say, if God never promises wealth to His Church, how can we say that His judgement will come by taking away our financial and material prosperity? I am not saying that I do not think that God could use something like 9/11 to wake up a nation, but I just don't know if those are the kinds of judgements we should expect from the Lord today. Furthermore, would it not be more fitting that today's judgements upon the Church would come from a more Spiritual aspect? Removing the Lampstand, for instance? My understanding of this Scripture would be that the Lampstand is the Holy Spirit's working with a Church giving it light (ie: guidance, leading, direction, understanding of Scripture, fruit) and that the removal of a lampstand would result in a fruitless, Spirit void group of people who do not follow the Word of God, which looks like a lot of the western "churches" today. (this fits surprisingly with the first post that began this whole discussion...) One last thought. Off topic, sort of. How much of the professing "church" in the west today is truly a purchased, redeemed, blood bought Bride? It would not surprise me if 80-90% of the professing western church were not true believers. I believe that it is possible that tens of thousands of people in western churches are not saved and they go to church every week because it is "what they do", and what they're parents and grandparents have always done. I really believe that for many the Church is merely the group of people around which their social interaction is formed. They're in the church softball, football, basketball, quilt making, square dancing, amusement park attending, etc. etc. etc. programs--but they have to go to Church on Sunday or they couldn't be in those programs--and it's a lot cheaper to be involved in the church softball than the world's softball, so, duh, why wouldn't we do it through the church's program? In a lot of the seeker friendly churches, you might have a lot of 1st generational professing christians, but quite frankly, with starbucks in the lobby, a warm fuzzy message on how God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life, a place for the kids to go on Friday nights, and lots of nice things for mom and dad to do, who the heck wouldn't want to go to a place like that? A church can get 25 people onto a softball team, but the only people out to a "prayer" meeting (and I mean a prayer meeting, not another sermon that happens to be mid-week, and then praying for 10 minutes for all the people in the hospital and Jimmy's Aunt Margie's dog) are a few old ladies and the associate pastor...How can people who profess to have the Spirit of the Living God residing and abiding in their hearts, live for years and years and years without ever doing a single thing for eternity? I think that there is an awful lot going on in the Name of our Lord which has no connection with the Person of the Lord. Everywhere we see people "having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof". We have more books, tapes, videos, seminars, music, etc. etc. etc. that have the tag of "Christian" on them, than in any other time in our history. There are more versions of the Bible, more "kinds" of Bibles available (in English anyway) than at any other time in Human history--and yet the people inside and outside of the church in the west remain unchanged by the gospel. I definitely believe we need Revival in the Church, Oh God we need revival, but the natural outflow of a Revival is that the lost realize their lostness and come to Christ for Salvation--especially the lost within the so-called church. I really think that another Great Awakening must occurr to wake up the dead in sins and trespasses who sit in pews week after week after year after year. Okay, I'm beginning to ramble so I will stop for now. I just wonder if we should get our focus off of impending judgement, and just preach the gospel (which is a lot more than just how to be saved, as we all know). Maybe that Indian Prophet should have preached on the Crucified Life after all. That's what the western church needs to understand...What is the priceWhat is the cost I must payFor Revival to see?Whatever the priceWhatever the costLord, let it begin with me.

this is a fascinating theory but I am still unconvinced. We have entered an era of grace. In this period of amnesty, it seems to me, God does not initiate judgment against individuals in this present age, but The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: (2Pe 2:9 KJV). Hi Bro Ron,This is strange for me to have to talk about because since the time I was a child the concept of God's judgment has been in the back of my mind fueling my 'fear of the Lord' and helping me to depart from evil. I am now challenged with the thought that all along my concern was unfounded. To remove the threat of impending judgment for sin from my theology is near to uprooting the fear of God from my life. To do that would be to uproot the beginning of wisdom and the whole of meaning. My mind and theology is fixed on the Christ that walks among the 7 Golden Candlesticks. The one who opens and no man shuts and closes and no man opens. The one who casts false teachers and their children into a bed of GREAT TRIBULATION except they repent. These are writings that were written in 90-95 CE after the destruction of the Temple that we read of in Wars (Josephus). These are writings that could not possibly be describing the destruction of the Temple. My theology begins and ends with the words of John the Baptist- now the ax is laid to the root of the tree, any tree that does not bring forth good fruit is cast into the fire. It is my position and has been for years that we are living in a more fearful time than at any time in history. To reject Christ is to trod under foot His blood and despise the birthright (as it were) as did Esau. God loves those who do so just as much as He did him. The sad reality is that when people hear and reject the Gospel day after day and year after year- we don't wipe the dust off our feet-- they just keep trodding under foot the blood.We have heard of the destruction of the Jews for rejecting Christ in 70 CE & 135 CE and have known even sorer calamnity to come of them in the last century. I recall Bro. Katz mentioning that he asked a Jewish man if he thought some of the catastrophies that have befallen them over the centuries was due to their rejection of God (paraphrased) and the man said he refused to consider the notion.Every good and perfect gift is from above- are we in America to assume that our blessings are the works of our own hands? "For the time has come that judgment must begin at the house of God; and if it first begin with us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?" 1Peter 4:17,18 Vance Havner in his article "Time For Judgment" writes,"The men who carried weapons were to follow the man with the writer's inkhorn and kill everyone whom he had not marked and THEY WERE TO BEGIN AT THE SANCTUARY. Peter says, "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God." God begins with His own people: judgment, like charity, begins at home. Much of the blame for world conditions lies at the door of the church. Our indifference, our neglect, our failure to cry out against iniquity have encouraged the devil. Unfaithful preachers, modernism, formality, worldliness, unholy living have disgraced the house of God until He must like the Savior of old, first cleanse the temple. God's house has become a den of thieves and it is time for the whip of judgment." If I can't preach judgment to this people I may as well hang my harp on the willow.God Bless,-Robert

repenter wrote:The Apostolic ministry in the early Church was to set the foundations of the Church, and that foundation is already laid, not to be built upon by any new apostles. To ask one Question:1) In what church was that total foundation laid?All the letters in the NT were written to individual churches. The foundation of truth has been laid for 'The' church as in universal, but not at an individual level.Zeke

Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: For our God is a consuming fire. (Hebrews 12:28, 29)Our God IS a consuming fire. The same God that destroyed the sons of Aaron when they offered strange fire under the Old Covenant is the same God in the New Covenant that desroyed Ananias and Sapphira. Adam Clarke comments on this saying, " The apostle quotes Deuteronomy 4:24, and by doing he teaches us this great truth, that sin under the Gospel is as abominable in God's sight as it was under the law; and that the man who does not labour to serve God with the principle and in the way already prescribed, will find that fire to consume him which would otherwise have consumed his sin. " It is the mercy of God that we are not already consumed. And when God lifts the hedge (as it were) in our life the enemy will come in like a flood and disaster awaits. If God does not judge sin in the New Testament dispensation what are we to make of those in the book of Acts who were smitten dead or smitten with blindness or the like? As it is written, "And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand." (Acts 13:11) Is this not akin to the judgment that was leveled upon those in Sodom when their sin had driven them to madness?We read also in I Corinthians 11... For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. What was their crime? They had not examined themselves and prepared themselves to partake of the Lord's Passover (Supper). They took the things of God lightly and were sick and dead. This is chastisement at least and judgment at worst.As for reprobation to commit sin, I would argue that God reprobates men's minds at their request in order to cut themselves loose from their conscience and the dealing of the Holy Ghost. They ask for it by so great of striving and resistance as to all but beg to be cut loose. God gave them over to a reprobate mind that they might do those things which are not convenient. What is it? They could not sin as they wished unless God would give them over. "Just cut me loose God... just cut me loose..." They want to sin with a seared conscience and God gives them over. This is no doubt a judgment. Moreover, he that defileth (Phtheiro) the Temple of God him shall God destroy (Phtheiro)! This is a one to one judgment. This is an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. This is a warning against Fornication that had best be heeded or those who do not will likewise receive in themselves the just recompense of reward which was meet (deserved). This is the law of sowing and reaping in effect that shows explicitly that God will not be mocked in the New Testament any more than He was in the Old. This is the type of preaching that will bring revival and none else.God Bless,-Robert

Ron wrote;What does the New Testament have to say about all this? Not a word. There is no NT doctrine pertaining to God's contemporary judgment of nation-states. So where has this idea come from that God will punish the US? (btw a hundred years ago it was the UK (you rememer the UK? we were the big guys before the US arrived on the block) which the preachers said would come under God's active punishments)I have to say that I can't understand this teaching at all, and its not for the want of trying. Some of the folk I respect most hold these truths as self-evident, but I just can't see them. Can anyone help out there?I just have a few thoughts on this. I believe the OT covered this judgment of nations rather extensively, it didn't really need to be rehashed in the NT. By looking only at the NT are you maybe building an argument from silence on this matter?Here's a couple of interesting quotes on this topic from the American Civil War days;“Every master of slaves is a petty tyrant. Theybring the judgment of heaven upon a country.As nations cannot be rewarded or punished inthe next world, they must be in this …Providence punishes national sins with nationalcalamities.” - George Mason“On many a defeated field there was a voicelouder than the thundering of a cannon. It wasthe voice of God, crying, ‘Let my people go.’ Wewere all very slow in realizing it was God’s voice,but after many humiliating defeats the nationcame to believe it a great and solemn command.Great multitudes begged and prayed that I mightanswer God’s voice by signing the EmancipationProclamation, and I did it, believing we nevershould be successful in the great struggle unlessthe God of Battles has been on our side.”- Abraham Lincoln.In Christ,Ron

Robert wrote:This is the type of preaching that will bring revival and none else.Finney would agree, and John the Baptist would be cheering from the stands.In ChristJeff

Brother Robert you posted;(((This is strange for me to have to talk about because since the time I was a child the concept of God's judgment has been in the back of my mind fueling my 'fear of the Lord' and helping me to depart from evil. I am now challenged with the thought that all along my concern was unfounded. To remove the threat of impending judgment for sin from my theology is near to uprooting the fear of God from my life. To do that would be to uproot the beginning of wisdom and the whole of meaning. My mind and theology is fixed on the Christ that walks among the 7 Golden Candlesticks. The one who opens and no man shuts and closes and no man opens. The one who casts false teachers and their children into a bed of GREAT TRIBULATION except they repent.)))My upbringing also, so all i can add is my God, and amen ... Brother Philologos, i understand your reasonings on our Lord's extended grace, and while you may not be one to abuse such reasonings, the world, and now Christ apostate church, particularly in America, certainly do ... Both are doing what the Apostle Paul God forbidded us against by abusing such grace at His fulfilling of the Law, and while God may tolerate such disrespect a bit longer from the heathen, my belief is that it's a bit shorter for His own children, although both grace periods seem long to us mortals ... Jehovah, Israel's Husband was silent to His wife for 400 years between Malachi and Matthew, and they still rejected Him when He personally appeared to them again as their Messiah, at which point, thank God, we the Church got grafted in as Christ's Bride ... But even after the grace of Christ had entered into the world don't you think that Israel's complete destruction in 70 AD. was due to God's judgement of their second rejection of Him? ... Don't you think that the Holocaust was also God's judgement in that we all know that nothing can happen against the nation of Israel, His apple, without either His sovereign or permissive will ... Personally i find the same to be true with Christ Church ... True He said that the gates of hell will not pervail against us, but He also said that judgement begins with His Church first ... To me judgement, no matter how harsh it may seem, or how long it may take to come, is either permissively or sovereignly brought about by God on those that He hates or loves, individual or group, because it has an intense cleansing effect ... God's been silent to us in the extended graciousness of this Church age for some 2,000 years, long enough for the Gospel to acquire a history of it's spread, of how England played such a huge part at one time and fell away, and now America ... Whether anyone agrees or not America is viewed by the rest of the planet as the #1 "premier" Christian nation, she was founded in such a manner, and today at least 60% of our population still profess Christianity, even though to a greater or lesser degree apostate ... My personal belief on America, of our being in the throes of God's judgement (post 9/11), is not due to the heathen practices praticed by the unbelievers in this country, but by those same practices being practiced by so great a multitude within the 60% of His professing Church ... We've got groves and high places of idolotry in our lives and land, and eventually, tho it may be a loooooooooooong eventually via extended grace, unrepentant sin still has its just rewards, namely slow ethical and moral erosion, then subsequent destruction and death, to the point of where America is heading, Britain already is, and God help France, Spain, Italy, etc ... Your "extended grace reasoning" has brought it even more clearer to my mind why it's been so easy for our Lord to have been transformed, by the devil i might add, from the Revelation's Christ Jesus, the awesome risen conqueror who now sits at the right hand of the Father, with ALL POWER in His hands, to Christ Genie, the cosmic Mr. Nice God who wouldn't hurt a fly, and is here only to give us our now twisted prosperity tainted definition of "life, and that we might have it more abundantly" ... That's why most preachers/Christians completely by pass the Revelation in study, they don't want to hear that there's present judgement from God on what He has against us NOW (in this period of grace), as representative of the 7 churches ... That's why hell fire doctrine and preaching has been almost completely eliminated from sermons in our modern church and modern times ... And it's also why i was able to sit in on a home buyers course at my church recently and hear a young sisters unabashed (no conviction whatsoever) response to a Real Estate agent as to her present living situation, that she lives with her boyfriend ... And finally why so many Christians i know are so able to unremorsefully justify their fornication especially, even tho they profess to love God ... They tell me with confidence, "Oh God understands" ... Even when i was young, a fornicator myself, i never once was able to dismiss such a sin with, "Well God understands" , how unrepentant and unremorseful is that? ... My training, my conscience then, and especially now, would not allow for such reasonigs and would eventually bring me to repentance, "i'm so sorry Lord, please don't turn me into a dust spot" ... But few, if any, are afraid of God like that anymore ... God's dead to the heathen, and suspect to many so called believers ...i'd been on a real mission just recent, till God told me to cease and desist, of attempting to sound the alarm against such "God understands" hyper-grace belief at my church ... He's told me to rest and relax till He calls me back to Bethel a second time, but i shudder to think what's gonna transpire on this earth, particularly here in America, between then and now ... Maybe i've got it all wrong ... Maybe i'm just one of those old fashioned folk whose really afraid of falling into the hands of an angry God, but i think God's about to make it crystal clear to us all whether He's still in the "judgement" business of unrepentant sin, or not ... Stay tuned, more news at 11 ... i think God has already broken His silence and the escalation of His thunderings determined by the degree to which we're resistant to repentance from ALL our idols, and ALL our dead works ... If grace doesn't present us "without spot or wrinkle", His judgement, His discipline certainly will.

Brother Greg, i'm now somewhat confused, and hope that you can clarify this for me ... When you posted this about the recent "word" from brother Sadhu Sundar Selvaraj ; ---I would be careful with this character Sadhu Sundar Selvaraj (-prophet from India). He is in fellowship with many very questionable and false people and if he was a true prophet he would seperate himself from the false priesthood and prophets. His messages are proclaimed with divine authority from angels which even the apostle paul never claimed. Paul had a revelation of Jesus Christ and afterwards spoke from the Spirit of Truth in him. This fellow is not to be confused with the saintly SADHU SUNDAR SINGH who lived from 1889-1929. This man was a blessed Christian in india who had wonderful revelations of Jesus Christ and shared convicting messages with the church, his testimony will change you to the core of your being. --- Did you come to these conclusions about brother Selvaraj because of his questionable associations, or because of his references to having visions of Jesus and recieving messages via angels, or both? ... I'm confused because i just read your new post on; "Snippets from the biography of Sadhu Sundar Singh ...https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=2635&forum=34and this brother had visions of Christ also, and while he doesn't claim recieving any messages from angels (at least not in what you've posted), he believed his own divine, physical rescuing by them, as quoted from your other post, below ... ---Barely hours, before he intended to take his own life, the young Sundar Singh had a dramatic vision of Jesus Christ. Immediately the emptiness and despair that had filled his heart was lifted, and his search for inner peace was over. ------Sundar believed in angels. However skeptical or cautious his friends from the West might be, affected as they were by the higher criticism of that period, he had not the slightest doubt about either the existence of these spiritual beings or of their having come to his aid in times of danger. On his return from some of his journeys in the Himalayas, he quite naturally related experiences of deliverances, which he attributed to angels who appeared in the form of men.On one occasion, having being directed along a forest path that eventually led to a river, he saw that it was too wide and swift flowing for him to cross. Night was already falling, and with the sound of wild beasts in his ears, he wondered how he would fare, and whether the end of his life had come. To face death alone in that isolated spot was no easier for him than for anyone else, and his eyes were filling with tears when, looking across the river he saw a man warming himself by a fire.“Don’t worry, I am coming to help you”, the man called out, and stepping down into the water, he came across fearlessly and said to Sundar, “Sit on my shoulders, and don’t be afraid”. Perched on the man’s back, Sundar found himself carried through the river and up the bank, Thinking to himself, “He must live near here, and so be used to crossing. I must tell him the Good News about Jesus…” On arrival at the other bank, Sundar slipped off his rescuer’s back, glanced around to get his bearings, then turned round to speak to him – but the man had disappeared. Neither was there any trace of the fire. ---On another occasion, under the title : "Another help from the angel" ...One day it was the evening when having tried to preach in a place called Kanyan all the day, only to be interrupted again and again by men who were bitterly opposed to him, he made his way out to a desert place, dropped down hungry and miserable under a tree and fell asleep. About midnight, he was awakened by a touch, and a voice told him to get up and eat. There beside him were two men holding out food to eat and water to drink. Thinking they must be villagers who had taken pity on him, he took the refreshment gratefully and when he was satisfied looked up to speak to the men – but they had disappeared.The most remarkable instance of angelic succor and deliverance that he related happened when he had reached a town in Tibet called Rasa. Here he was arrested for having entered the country to preach a foreign religion. He was brought before the head Lama who passed sentence on him – a sentence that amounted to death. But the Tibetan religion forbidding them to take life, they had conceived two ways of leaving a culprit to die without actually killing him. One way was to sew him up in wet yak skins, then leaving him in the sun, which caused the yak skins to shrink, crushing him. The other was to cast him into a dry well, cover over the top and leave him there. In either case, there was no taking of life by human hands, since the forces that caused the yak skins to shrink or the body in the well to die through hunger and thirst were not under their control, so they were innocent.The method chosen in Sundar’s case was to cast him into the well. He was hustled there, the iron cover unlocked and removed, and he was pushed over the edge, down into a pit so foul that his very soul recoiled. The bottom of it was covered with dead men’s bones and rotting flesh and the stench was almost overwhelming. Then what little light had penetrated was shut out as the cover of the well was replaced and he was left in darkness.It was for worse than anything he had ever experienced before. No one had accompanied him on this trip; he was in a country where he was unknown, and he realized that humanly speaking his situation was hopeless. There was no possibility of help from any human source, and this time the inner joy he had known in times of persecution was missing.“My God, my God…. why have you forsaken me?”. The words of Jesus on the Cross came to mind but without the comfort of conscious fellowship. Why, oh why had God brought him to this place of horror and left him there?Hours passed – how many he had no means of knowing. His arm had been wrenched as he was cast into the well, but the physical pain was as nothing compared with the anguish of his soul. In relating the story ears later, he said he was in that well for two days and nights, and on the third night, he heard a sound above. The cover of the well was being removed and then a rope was let down and a voice told him to take hold of it. Summoning what strength remained in him, he slipped the noose under his arms and was slowly drawn up, to sink on the ground, conscious, only that he was gulping in fresh air at last. Weak as he was from hunger and thirst, his body craved air more than anything was. As he breathed it in, he felt himself strangely revived and the pain in his wrenched arm had gone. But he was alone. There was no sign of his rescuer. ---I'm now in the process of searching out some more of brother Singh's writings, and i must state that i have no problem with either "eastern" mans references to visions of Christ, and or angelic visitations, because i believe God utilizes, and comes to each individual where they are ... Easteners are far more mystical that we westerners are, and so i believe far more open to the supernatural than we are, so i believe God has and does use such saints in ways that we can't even fathom, and in fact either doubt, or completely dis believe ... i look at Watchman Nee, a Chinaman, and i think to myself that his cultural background had much to do with how the Holy Spirit was able to take him to the spiritual depths of his writings ... I'm in total agreement of this assessment of western saints and the wester church, quoted from "When Singh was in England" ...--- The Church of the West, blessed with an early vision of the Savior of the world, has yet to mourn its inability to meet entirely the needs of those for whom He died. The simple gospel, passing through the minds of men throughout the ages, has taken on the color of those minds, and has thus become less potent for its great task; for not in ceremonial appealing to the senses nor yet in mighty organizations is the new birth found. The accretions of the centuries sanctioned by time can offer only a semblance of the life, which is in Christ Jesus, and no other life can satisfy. The cry is “Show me a man like Christ”. A Swedish Archbishop pointed to Sundar Singh and said: “The gospel has not undergone any change in him…In the history of religion Sundar is the first to show the world how the gospel of Jesus Christ is reflected in unchanged purity in an Indian soul”“Christianity is imperishable”, said another writer, “and out of the east it will come again. The Sadhu is perhaps the first of the new apostles to rekindle the fire on dying altars”.i've just went back and re-read brother Selvara's "word" and it too, references to Christ, angels and all, also seems to be "a wonderful revelation of Jesus Christ and a convicting message to the American Church" ... Perhaps in this "Message To America" that sister Chanin posted it's our God attempting to place such a call from East to West, but we'll never be able to hear His phone because His word comes via people, circumstance and rhetoric we just can't possibly believe, and all the while His Word tells us that He sets up "the wise" to miss His message via "the foolish" ... Alas, the only message we westerners, and particularly we Americans believe, is "collateral damage", and "shock and awe", or loving Lord's last resort ... To bad our dis-belief leaves Him no other choice.

This was one of the fasted viewed, most participated in topics by SI visitors and members that i can recall in my short membership ... Thanks Sister Chanin ...To any future visitors, if you find this thread informative you might find this one of interest also ..."Another Message to the USA Church" ...https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=2726&forum=35&3