The Greenock Conference - Was it irrelevent?

S

sermonindex Dec 18, 2008

I am continually amazed at how we Christians can write our own press and believe it. I was at the Greenock conference and left there quite disturbed. When I examne the results of the conference I have to say that:
1) A small constituency in the Christian church got 'blessed up.' They would have got blessed up whereever they were and whatever they were doing mind you. They came intent on doing business with God as they saw it, and did so.
2) The preaching was lack lustre, especially the last night and the last address, which was bizzare even beyond Bentley standards.
3)Revival did not come. Greenock is still in its sins, depression and the damnation of that present generation continues. Scotland remains untouched.
4) The good folks a Greenock will not reach this generation. Cannot reach their own generation, and would be happier in a past generation, which is dead.

The Geenock conference left me despairing.

Was any good done? For sure! Whenever Christians gather, God is among them and good is done. Great good was done at Lakeleand and continues to get done whenever the people of God, even the wacky people of God, gather together. However, there was no revival, so let's not kid ourselves that there was.

Blessings on you all.
www.whisperingword.com

P

PaulWest Dec 18, 2008

The preaching was lack lustre, especially the last night and the last address, which was bizzare even beyond Bentley standards

I didn't catch the last address. Who preached it, and why do you feel it was bizarre?

The good folks a Greenock will not reach this generation. Cannot reach their own generation, and would be happier in a past generation, which is dead.

Quite the presumptuous statement if I may say so.

Great good was done at Lakeleand

Would you mind sharing some of these "great good" things, and explaining how you came to the conclusion that while Lakeland had "great good", Greenock left you disturbed and despairing?

Thank you, and welcome to SermonIndex.

P

philologos Dec 18, 2008

whisperingword

I have more sympathy with your comments than you would guess from what I am going to say but...

I think you are saying that you did not get what you expected. The distance between expectation and realization is called 'disappointment'; it is a condition common to our race. ;-)

One of the inevitable consequences of a gathering such as the revival conference is that there are lots of different expectations. We all pray for revival but what is perceived as an 'answer to prayer' by one will be regarded as a disappointment by another.

I was present at the conference and my 'reactions' were very mixed. Some aspects left me feeling very disturbed and yet I am glad that I was there.

Was it revival? It depends on your definition. Churchill once famously referred to a victory which was not the 'end' and 'not even the beginning of the end' but was the 'end of the beginning'. I am not sure that Greenock was even that but it was a 'step' for many and in that I rejoice.

for Paul: the final speaker was Keith Daniels

N

notmyown Dec 18, 2008

So I gather from this post that you believe God is the instigator of the 'Revival' in Lakeland. I can understand why you were disappointed in Greenock then. There was no hype, no playing on emotions, just a heavy sense of God's presence which I havent experienced in a long time (years by the way, not months)

I was there with 7 others who all have come home minsitered to by God. One in particular has been nothing short of transformed in his walk with God. He's on a completely new level compared to before the conference.

As for me. Everything ministered to me. Everything hit home. I was broken for my lack of dedication to God and came home knowing I cannot be the same again as did the majority of people who were with me. We have now started a Prayer meeting for personal and corporate revival in my house and I have been studying and praying more as a result as have all the party with me.
.... and I am not the sort of person who meets God everywhere I go and neither are the others. I have seen false fire in Toronto and Lakeland and many other places being an ex-pentecostal church member. I can honestly say that never in any hyper emotional meeting have I been ministered to to the same depth as in that conference.

As for the comments about the preaching - especially regarding the last speaker (Keith Daniel) - nonsense! I think the last message was for you. Deceived in spirit. Harsh - but by your words I feel it is justified.

I've said a lot more than I planned but I am shaken by the origainl post and had to comment.

God bless those who orgainsed that Conference - we will never be the same again!

R

RobertW Dec 18, 2008

Hi Whispering Word,

1) A small constituency in the Christian church got 'blessed up.' They would have got blessed up whereever they were and whatever they were doing mind you. They came intent on doing business with God as they saw it, and did so.

This comes off as cynical to me and with an attitude like this we will never see revival. One of the challenges we face as Ron pointed out is our expectations. Are we prepared to be content with God's agenda? Will we rejoice and be thankful for the things that God does accomplish? Will we dismiss things too wonderful for us? I for one was not 'blessed up' in some bizarre charismatic sense, but came away with a sense of victory and grace that I have never known. We should caution ourselves not to speak evil or condescendingly of things that we know not of.

The preaching was lack lustre, especially the last night and the last address, which was bizzare even beyond Bentley standards.

I think this is a stretch. The preaching and teaching I attended to was very good, mostly. I would take issue with those that looked on the move of God Wednesday Night with a 'Michal style' (Saul's daughter that mocked David for dancing before the Lord) disdain. There was a breakthrough that was happening on a spiritual level in many peoples lives that will have an impact in time and eternity.

As for the last night being bizarre beyond Bentley, I think that is a bit strong. I personally do not relate to the style in the slightest and do not share many of the views expressed, but to compare someone to Todd Bentley is almost to suggest they are involved in the ~~[i]~~Occult[/i]. As with any ministry we should be good Bereans and keep our discernment up. We need to discern the spirit behind the message. Does it square with the fruit of the Spirit? I personally do ~~[u]~~not[/u] equate fearfulness, dread and soberness with 'spiritual'.

Scripture memorization is a fairly common thing also in my circles so I was not offended by that. I know people that can recite whole books of the bible from memory. It is a product of 'bible quizzing' and other studies.

Revival did not come. Greenock is still in its sins, depression and the damnation of that present generation continues. Scotland remains untouched.

Untouched? How can anyone know that? I think sometimes we read so many sensational accounts of revival that were spoiled to almost anything God does that does not meet that. It's why I quit reading books on accounts of miracles many years ago. It creates an almost 'comic book' Christianity. It is not healthy and it skews our expectations.

The good folks a Greenock will not reach this generation. Cannot reach their own generation, and would be happier in a past generation, which is dead.

[color=000066]Say not thou, What is the cause that the former days were better than these? for thou dost not enquire wisely concerning this.
(Eccl. 7:10) [/color]

You said also that we believe our own press? Guess what? The former generation wrote ~~[i]~~their own press[/i] and we believed it. Maybe ~~[u]~~that[/u] is the real problem? Many are so enamored with records of the way things once were and so nostalgic in their present experience that when God does something different they view it as 'lesser' and dismiss it.

Greenock was a learning experience. God revealed some things. I said it before and I'll say it again God does not have to 'spank' His children to suit the onlookers. he does not have to vex certain with torments of mind to accomplish His purposes. God is not looking for a 'pound of flesh' He is looking to bring many sons and daughters unto glory. If lives were genuinely changed we ought to rejoice and not be quick to criticize in our hearts any step that God takes towards man or any that man in turn takes towards God.

I believe we are the better off for the conference for two reasons:

1. God did a work in individual lives that will be life lasting.

2. God revealed a great hindrance to the moving of His Spirit in any generation:

a. a willingness to touch the Ark.
b. a tendency to look with disdain on people that respond to God in a way that does not 'please' ~~[u]~~them[/u].

H

HeartSong Dec 18, 2008

This was essentially the sermon that Keith Daniel preached at Greenock.

Preachers in the Last Days by Keith Daniel

Clearly (to me at least), God was in control of all aspects of the Conference. I was touched from this direction, and that direction, and then from all around. The Lord was working on a personal level, as well as a corporate level - before, during, and after the "event."

The way I see it, many forest fires have been started from the burning embers of a seemingly extinguished camp fire - even after water has been poured upon it.

E

enid Dec 18, 2008

Before we go any further, can we just step back and see what is taking place before us.

No doubt, whispering, knows that people, just like himself, are given to being defensive.

This post was started, presumably, because people will comment heavily on it, therefore getting him noticed, and getting his website noticed.

Or, in other words, it is just a publicity scam.

Don't read too much into what he is saying.

We should be big enough to ignore it.

P.S, He probably won't even reply to the thread he started.

L

Limey153 Dec 18, 2008

I am absolutely shocked at what you say as this was certainly anything but a "Blessed Up" conference as you put it. Throughout the whole three days there was a continual emphasis on brokeness and repentance, just take the Thursday morning for example when dozens of folk came forward publicly confessing sin.
As for Keith Daniels sermon I would go as far to say that it was possibly one of the best sermons I have ever heard, it was most definately biblical, it was a word in season and it certainly showed me (as if I did'nt already know) that brother Keith Daniel is concerned with speaking as God tells him to too and not in a way that simply makes him popular amongst men.
I sincerely hope more such conferences will follow, as for the comment about revival not coming, who can possibly say that? This conference was about seeking God for revival and since revival is preceeded by prayer then I am sure that this event was NOT a waste of time.

T

TroyorTakoda Dec 18, 2008

Is he referring to Brownsville Assembly of God? We believe that gifts of healing, prophesy, etc are still in effect today, however we are not of those who go chasing after signs, wonders and emotional experiences. As Paul Washer said: We have been given truth, and we cannot expect to do what is right in our own eyes and then expect the Holy Spirit to come down and bless our mess. I believe it was E.M. Bounds who said: Every revival comes, as Pentecost came, as the fruit of continued prayer. It is in the closet, with the door shut, that the sound of abundant rain will be first heard.

P

philologos Dec 18, 2008

So I gather from this post that you believe God is the instigator of the 'Revival' in Lakeland. I can understand why you were disappointed in Greenock then. There was no hype, no playing on emotions, just a heavy sense of God's presence which I havent experienced in a long time (years by the way, not months)

In all fairness to 'whisperingword', I don't think this is what he is saying, anymore than the Lord was commending those who cast out demons but were not his followers. Whisperingword is simply commented on an aspect of God's amazing grace.

Many years ago I was invited to preach in a convent in Lucknow in India; it was a charismatic catholic group. While I have a love for catholics and appreciate how God is working in many lives I am strongly anti-catholicism so I was somewhat uncomfortable at being there.

Things got worse. I was handed a chorus book which I opened at random. It had two choruses next to each other; the first was 'all over the world the Spirit is moving' and the second was 'Hail, to the virgin of Lourdes'. I breathed a silent prayer.... Lord what am i doing here!?!

It was one of those occasions when a brief inward conversation takes place..

Ron B: "Lord, what am I doing here?'

Answer: Can you love these people?

Ron B: Yes, Lord

Answer: Do you want to be a blessing to them?

Ron B: Yes, Lord.

Answer: That's how I feel.

...end of conversation. The answers in my heart did not endorse catholicism, they simply showed God's amazing grace.

When people genuinely seek the Lord, he can be found in the most extraordinary places. This does not mean that he endorses the theology of those places but simply that he has found a heart open to him. It is important to remember this principle irrespective of which side of this thread we stand. Blessing at Greenock is not necessarily an endorsement from God, but simple an expression of his amazing grace. After all, we deserve nothing, do we? Isn't that what grace means?

S

sermonindex Dec 18, 2008

Philologos, I was blessed by your response!
The essence of your post is how I felt when I read Whispering's comments... God can meet people wherever they are and whomever they are with. Our God is Great beyond words could ever express and He is able to do above and beyond all that we could ever imagine.
I was blessed by the Greenock Revival Conference... the fact that there were people there who had made the sacrifice to travel the distance, with family, without family and join united in our determined effort to see God's outpouring in the thirsty land around us, to hear the depth, urgency and the vigour of the preaching~ in the call to surrender our ALL to the One who surrendered His life for us, to attend the prayer meetings (My heart bleeds to see more prayer meetings in the church today!) and to meet with others with the heart of evangelism, revived my heart from one of despondancy! Personally, for me, there may not have been a 'revival' in Greenock, such as the ones which have gone before, but my heart and vision were revived! I joined with many who were there with a resounding, do what you will, Lord, to use me as a clean vessel for your glory and Your name's sake. Amen!

T

Tears_of_joy Dec 18, 2008

philologos wrote:
Ron B: "Lord, what am I doing here?'
Answer: Can you love these people?
Ron B: Yes, Lord
Answer: Do you want to be a blessing to them?
Ron B: Yes, Lord.
Answer: That's how I feel.

Hello Ron, could you share more what happened after that? What was the practical result of this conversation? How did you express God's love to these people, and how you was a blessing to them?

Thank you.

R

RobertW Dec 18, 2008

The ~~[u]~~good folks[/u] a Greenock will not reach this generation. Cannot reach their own generation, and would be happier in a past generation, which is dead.

I want to return for a moment to this point. I simply cannot agree with it at all. When I arrived in Greenock I had a house stay with a couple that I shall leave unnamed. Because of a little confusion ~~[u]~~did[/u] not think their visitor was coming. However, I showed up after the Tuesday Night conference as a surprise to them. But they took me right in with amazing hospitality

I observed this couple with amazement. In my mind they are part of a remnant in Greenock that loves God and are making a difference. I was so blessed that I can hardly imagine. I found a remnant in Reading and again in Liverpool. Truly there is a remnant in the UK that seeks after God. I am reminded of the passage:

[color=000066]“A bruised reed He will not break, and smoking flax He will not quench; He will bring forth justice for truth.” (Isa 53:3)[/color]

I did not sense a 'lukewarmness' in these certain local churches or with this family. I had a real sense of the presence of God. I live in the bible belt of America.I have been in a lot of churches and meetings. There are at least 5 churches within walking distance of my house. But God is at work at a different level in these places I visited in the UK.I come away tremendously encouraged.

P

philologos Dec 18, 2008

Hello Ron, could you share more what happened after that? What was the practical result of this conversation? How did you express God's love to these people, and how you was a blessing to them?

As I recall there were about 12 nuns, 3 priests and about 10 'lay folk'. I preached what God had put on my heart and about three quarters of the way through, I suddenly realized what my topic was. It seems impossible to imagine it now but I found myself telling all these folks, priests, nuns and lay folk they God had always intended that they 'should be priests' with unhindered access dependent on no man.

I am sure that if I had targeted the group with this topic I would have been tense and the hearers would have been defensive. But I continued without a strategy and quite oblivious to the implications of what I was preaching.

They were very warm towards me and some of the nuns, in particular, said they had never thought about such things. The priests seemed comfortable with it all. They seemed encouraged.

As regards the long term 'results' I have no way of knowing what happened to any of these folks. I never visited them again and this story is now 35 years old!! I work on the principal that I am not called to be a strategist but simply a foot soldier. I don't have to have plans, or submit to premature progress reports... the day is coming when all things will be assessed. All I have to do is 'the next thing' and leave the consequences to the Strategist. It is a simply life... ;-)

C

ccchhhrrriiisss Dec 18, 2008

Hi Brother...

Maybe our expectations of what "revival really is" aren't exactly set to the Biblical, non-theatrical standard? If I recall, Paul (that wonderful apostle) actually put one man to sleep (who fell out a window and died). Perhaps it would be good to learn what revival IS NOT before we create manmade definitions of what it IS.

"And Nathanael said unto him, '~~[i]~~Can there any good thing come out of Nazareth[/i]?'" - John 1:24

C

crsschk Dec 18, 2008

I am continually amazed at how we Christians can write our own press and believe it.

Including your own?;

"~~[i]~~In me, the root of this Scrooge like attitude is a spirit that is unthankful. Yes, a spirit of unthankfulness is the root cause of so many ills. Bitterness, depression, refracted vision, hate, anger and all the associated physical manifestations of a multitude of spiritual ills can trace their root cause to a lack of thankfulness.[/i]"

Got a feeling Enid is likely right here, neverthelesss;

~~[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=14144&forum=13&post_id=&refresh=Go]~~MUST READ: SermonIndex Forum Disclaimer / Community Rules[/url]

Both in general and regarding posting\\promoting your website here. Your other consecutive postings will be locked.

Irrelevent ... An interesting choice of words.

~~[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=10733&forum=34&post_id=&refresh=Go]~~Jonathan Edwards - Undiscerned Spiritual Pride[/url]

S

sermonindex Dec 18, 2008

Hi Robert

I am not sure what "press," you are referring too? Can I ask you if you attended the prayer sessions each evening? I was running them and did not see you there, although this could be an oversight on my part.

I think that we are so used to having to deal with "Florida," type revivals that even if Greenock was the beginning of a movement then we would not recognize it because it , apparently was not instant. Do you know Robert, that Carter Conlon is coming back in the spring-time with his team from Time square church for an evangelistic outreach? He is doing this because he was so touched by the people that he met in the area and he also claimed that there was an "explosion," in his heart.

There was many spiritual battles fought in Greenock. If you missed the prayer sessions and other events that did not surround the actual event you would probably miss the bigger picture. Did you know that Denny Keneston preached in the heart of a housing scheme garthering attended by about 100 drug addicts. Did you know that many of the team of organizers met with alcholics and drug addicts on almost a daily basis for about two weeks in a place that ministers to them called the Haven? Carter Conlon also visited these guys.

Did you know that, although many of the organizers would be considered to be "conservative," that the event was organized locally by two Pentecostal men? Did you know that Satan was not happy that the best of Pentecostals and the best of conservative Christians were working together behind the scenes to come against his schemes. This was part of the battle, this was part of the walls that were coming down. This would pave the way for someone like Carter Conlon to come again and have an evagelistic outreach in a town notorious for crime and drugs.

In a Christian world where everthing is for sale, and people who call themselves ministers of the Gospel are constantly trying to sell books and tapes, there was nothing for sale in Greenock. No one was paid, if you came, whether speaker or simply attending, you came at your own cost. In fact the organizers took this so seriously that they would not even allow a charity to sell calenders outside the event because this event was not about money.

Did I agree with everything that I saw and heard at Greenock? Of course not(although I disagreed with very little) Was there Spiritual breakthroughs personally and corporately? Yes there was. In fact, on the final day, one of the most notorious sinners in Greenock, well known to the Greenock people, found herself standing outside of the Greenock town hall. She was brought in by a pastor from England who felt compelled by the Spirit to step outside and bring her in. She wept and wept as she asked for forgiveness of her sins and confessed the Lord Jesus. As one of the main organizers pondered on this later, he told me that the Lord spoke to him and said "more."

So, when Carter and his team return in the Spring, will we see more? Will we see people like this woman swept into the Kingdom? Yes I belive we will. If we do, it is because the Lord did a work through His people. Barriers were broken down, prayers were sent up, hearts were broken, tears were wept.

Can I ask you Robert, as an English minister of the Gospel, did you personaly break down barriers? Was your heart broken? Did you join with God's people nightly and send up your prayers? Did your tears join the tears of other saints. If not, then this may be the reason that you missed out on personal revival and being part of something bigger that yourself and your ministry. All revival starts with us. Revival is an encounter with the living God. May we all be revived and may we all be part of God's end time prayer warriors, doing battle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the darkness of this age, against spiritual wickedness in high places............brother Frank

C

Compton Dec 18, 2008

I work on the principal that I am not called to be a strategist but simply a foot soldier. I don't have to have plans, or submit to premature progress reports... the day is coming when all things will be assessed. All I have to do is 'the next thing' and leave the consequences to the Strategist. It is a simply life..

I really like this. Too often, (as I perceive) revival minded Christians tend to measure their life in Christ only by kairos moments: those special times in God when chronos time seems interrupted, cracked open, suspended to make room for treasured spiritual stirrings.

Yet measuring our richness in Christ and our fellowship towards one another, only by the treasure of kairos moments we are going to feel disappointed, because we are undervaluing the day by day coin of chronos time. If you really study the finer history of the church, not just the glorious testimonies, but the nook and cranny stuff, when she was healthy, she abided in Christ in both kairos and chronos time.

At least that is how I've learned to see discussions like this. I wasn't there in Scotland, but if all that happened was a time of rich Christian fellowship, it was still a rich time in Christ. There's nothing to despise about that.

Blessings,

MC

S

sermonindex Dec 18, 2008

Hey bro

the press I am referring to is the 'utter tosh' I am reading ref God coming down at Greenock.

No I wasn't at the prayer meetings. (Am repenting as I write) I was praying elsewhere.

If you think Greenock was the beginning of a movement my brother, then you need your head examining.

I was there for Carter's message which I thought was spot on. However, he was so culturally irrelevant it wasn't true. His Pentecostal fervour at the end of his message showed his true background and his limp pogo-ing dance, well it just added silliness to what was a great message.

I am so glad that he is coming back in spring-time with his team from Time square church for an evangelistic outreach? Excellent. The drug addicts at haven are a captive audience that will greatly receive his message. I always find people in recovery to be open and learning the language of spirituality. No sarcasm here, I think that's great. I'd rather speak to addicts any day of the week.

As to 'There was many spiritual battles fought in Greenock. If you missed the prayer sessions and other events that did not surround the actual event you would probably miss the bigger picture.' Well bro, all I can do is sigh and say, regarding revival, GREENOCK is still untouched. Don't kid yourself.

Did you know that, although many of the organizers would be considered to be "conservative," that the event was organized locally by two Pentecostal men? well, yes I did. I became a Christian in Scotland through Aggies Weston's and was based 5 times just across the water in Helensborough. The meeting bore of the marks of the old fashioned holiness movements of the area. It's not new. It was irrelevant to the folks of that area some 25 years ago and remains so today.

Did you know that Satan was not happy that----- maybe. Though I cannot speak for him, my suspicion is that I don’t think he was overly concerned with what went on. Frank, did you know that the healing room in the main shopping centre is open 3 hours PER WEEK and is full of furniture got from the local dump?

There was nothing for sale in Greenock. No there wasn't. Not even a cup of tea. Were the speakers and crew catered for? They were? Why not the guests? A warm cup of tea would not have infringed on anyone’s holiness.

The event was not about money, and you could tell. Apart from the final collection towards costs. Which I think was a good thing. How much was raised.

Great news about the notorious sinner! Tell me more. How wonderful.

"'So, when Carter and his team return in the Spring, will we see more? Will we see people like this woman swept into the Kingdom? Yes I believe we will. If we do, it is because the Lord did a work through His people. Barriers were broken down, prayers were sent up, hearts were broken, and tears were wept. '" Good. This language is out of a puritan handbook from the 17 century. Did you know that? I am not a Todd Bentley fan, indeed I was at a very hairy meeting at God channel telling them just what I thought about old odd bentley- however guess what bro, at all of his meetings, and over the telephone and T.V. the Lord did a work through His people. Barriers were broken down, prayers were sent up, hearts were broken, and tears were wept.

As a British minister (Scots parents, Irish grandparents -born in England and on speaking terms with the Welsh - just) Though although the conference met the needs of a very small Christian constituency, My heart was broken at the overall irrelevance of the conference to the wider Christian community and to the world outside, and the may I say, to the very weird preaching. I am afraid I couldn't bring myself to pray with the old gang. Forgive me for that, only I have seen and heard all the old stylised weeping and pleading before. It just leaves me a little cold sometimes now. Sorry.

As for me, well, I am certain I battle with the devil daily. I am certain my motives are mixed, I am certain I am in need of constant revival. I am certain I need Jesus more. I am certain I need to be more full on for Jesus. I am certain the folks of Greenock were sincere. I am certain they excel me on so many plains and in so many ways. I am certain God will do good to us and even despite us. Yes and amen. Still, upon reflection and even so. I am also certain Greenock was a cultural irrelevancy.

S

sermonindex Dec 18, 2008

Regarding my 'undiscerned' spiritual pride..

sorry bro your wrong, I discern it quite clearly. In addition to that God has kicked me black and blue so many times over it, I have the marks to prove his dealings.

P.S. don't pull the old pride card then folks please..It's so boring.

P.P.S. I am a dreadful sinner saved by grace. You wont have to look too far for proof of that.

L

Lawevangelis Dec 18, 2008

Interesting. I've never known "cultural relevancy" to be a qualification for revival. Do you have chapter and verse on that?

Jon

S

sermonindex Dec 18, 2008

No, fair play, you are quite right. All previous revivals were culturally irrelvent. I should have thought about that!

S

sermonindex Dec 18, 2008

Judging by one of the modarator comments. I am about to get kicked out for advertising my web site (which by the way is - www.whisperingword.com) ???

So, my I say that my short sojourn with you all has not disproven my constant experience with the most holy. As Spurgeon rightly comments 'We are all fine birds until we get our feathers ruffled!"

How good and pleasant it always is to dwell with the people of God, that is, until you disagree with them in charge!

Blessings on you all anyhoo the noo.

S

sermonindex Dec 18, 2008

I took the time to go to "whispering's" web site, peruse the links, and to listen to parts of a couple of recordings. This would be Reverend Robert Farrell.If you could take honor in a critic singling you out, this would be the fellow. Is he a Christian? You be the judge of that. I see him as a religious secular humanist, who is somewhat of a gifted speaker and writer.

He happens to call himself a Pastor. The first thing that you will encounter when you arrive is the sale of various teachings and POETRY...for among his many accomplishments....[he lists them all, by the way,], he is a new age "flow of consciousness" poet. I went to U-Tube , and listened. Wow! ..really out there kind-of-beatnik garbage..] His site reminded me of the infamous "Elijah list", with the latest deep revelation FOR SALE, and not so cheap, either.

I could go on, but it wearies me to consider how filled with himself this fellow is, and a I said, in my opinion,I do not witness our Lord Jesus in his life, teachings, or recorded ministry. You shall know them by their fruit.

Having said that, Zac Poonen , I believe did a good teaching on how we receive accusation and Criticism. Remember, that this, along with persecution will come to "all who live Godly in Christ Jesus." Satan attacks those who stand in Jesus, and there is real suffering involved, and misunderstanding and rejection too. How do we receive this? "Jesus answered him not a word." [Pilate's inquiry.]

Revival is not an event, but an overall repentance from dead works, and a faith toward God. God gives revival, and there seems to always be a "breaking up of the fallow ground" that precedes revival, in which we humans cannot control. as much as we would like to.

This flies in the face of those who perceive revival as an event, which is based on a "blessed up" ideology and doctrine that if God is involved, it must have man's blessing and well being at it's core, and reality then is based on the positive EXPERIENCE of God, on our terms...rather than Faith and communion with God,which is based on our repentance and willing death to ourselves, our satanic natures, to gain Him. There is always suffering in this...always. This is the nature of true Christianity, to "PICK UP YOUR CROSS...[your own death..crucifixion of yourself to be with a holy God..]AND FOLLOW ME!"

In some instances much time goes by, before God chooses to grace a people, or return to them. He does however, hear those who love Him. We must remain as the infant who trusts, for such is the Kingdom of God. We are helpless, and we need Him for our heartbeat and breath, and also our mortal enemies seek our lives, and to destroy our faith.

Read 2 Corinthians chapter one, to see a diary of the greatest revivalist who ever lived. He suffered incessantly, as His Lord commissioned him to be so. We have no rights to blessing. We must learn this from the start to be successful...[read Job..]. Our blessing and our power is in Heaven, where our Master sits. Herein is the voice of all the martyrs, who also sought to bring true, Biblical revival.

H

hulsey Dec 18, 2008

Just a question brother because I am somewhat confused about how you are defining revival.

Would you have been upset with Paul because his preaching failed to close the temples in Corinth or the active slave trade? Would you have seen his brief stay in Thessolonica as a failure?

Is revival the saving of a culture? or of individuals out of a culture that God has condemned?

Also, I am pentecostal yet considered very conservative :).

Blessings,
Jeremy Hulsey

J

JoanM Dec 18, 2008

Whispering: I have only ever heard of two cultures, two Kingdoms.

S

sermonindex Dec 18, 2008

I am not always good at knowing when to "remain silent." :) So, I will not respond to brother Robert. Just know that I am praying for you brother. I love you and ernestly pray that God uses you in whatever arena that he has called you too. Here are some Scriptures that popped into my mind. They may not be culturally relevent :)

1Jn 2:10 He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no offense in him.

1Jn 3:11 For this is the message that you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another;

1Jn 3:23 And this is His commandment, that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

Rom 13:8 Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for he who loves another has fulfilled the Law.

Jn 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God, and everyone who loves has been born of God, and knows God.

1Jn 4:11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.

1Jn 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God has in us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him.

1Jn 4:21 And we have this commandment from Him, that he who loves God should love his brother also.

2Jn 1:5 And now I beseech you, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment to you, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.
2Jn 1:6 And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, as you heard from the beginning, that you should walk in it.

1Th 4:9 But regarding brotherly love, you do not need that I write to you, for you yourselves are taught by God to love one another.

One of the lessons in Greenock was ..........

Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not love, I have become as sounding brass or a tinkling cymbal.
1Co 13:2 And though I have prophecies, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so as to move mountains, and do not have love, I am nothing.
1Co 13:3 And though I give out all my goods to feed the poor, and though I deliver my body to be burned, and have not love, I am profited nothing.
1Co 13:4 Love has patience, is kind; love is not envious, is not vain, is not puffed up;
1Co 13:5 does not behave indecently, does not seek her own, is not easily provoked, thinks no evil.
1Co 13:6 Love does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices in the truth,
1Co 13:7 quietly covers all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
1Co 13:8 Love never fails.

Brother Frank

N

Nellie Dec 18, 2008

Revivals are to Glorify God, and the Revival in Greenock did this.
It is my understanding that Paster Carter Conlon is going back in the Spring.
God Bless all.
Nellie

S

sermonindex Dec 18, 2008

May I in Christian love call you out my brother. Fisty cuffs at dawn if you please. May I also ask for your details that I might take up libel proceedings against you in particular. Thanks. Look forward to hearing from you.

Only joking of course! hahahahah... good to see you old fashgioned holiness Christians are still spewing out Christian love. No really, bless you.

I took the time to go to "whispering's" web site, peruse the links, and to listen to parts of a couple of recordings. This would be Reverend Robert Farrell. YES IT'S ME! I look pretty cool. I prefer my blond haired stage though...but ahh, the passing of time and the rising cost of hair dye.

If you could take honor in a critic singling you out, this would be the fellow. Is he a Christian? You be the judge of that. Judging my salvation eh. Bold move. Brave move even.

I see him as a religious secular humanist, who is somewhat of a gifted speaker and writer. Thank you for the latter, as for the former, well may I say that if you were a woman in the Old testament, you would have had your hand removed for grabbing at such testicular nonsense.

He happens to call himself a Pastor. No my cobgregation call me Pastor.

The first thing that you will encounter when you arrive is the sale of various teachings and POETRY...for among his many accomplishments....[he lists them all, by the way,],
No! it's not the only thing you see, and frankly just where is all the web space to list ALL my MANY accomplishements.

he is a new age "flow of consciousness" poet.
again....may I say with great resepct.....Noo. it takes me ages to write poetry. Flow of conssiousness...sheeeshsh I WISH!

I went to U-Tube , and listened. Wow! ..

THANK YOU
really out there kind-of-beatnik garbage..]

you really should get out more....

His site reminded me of the infamous "Elijah list", with the latest deep revelation FOR SALE, and not so cheap, either.

14.99 for 700 pages of red hot spirituality! Dirt cheap mate I can ssusre you and worth every blinking penny. It's taken me years to write those two books of 700 pages each (did I tell you they were just 14.99)

I could go on, oooh I know you could!

but it wearies me to consider how filled with himself this fellow is, and a I said, in my opinion,I do not witness our Lord Jesus in his life, teachings, or recorded ministry. You shall know them by their fruit.

years in ministry and faithful dedication to loving and serving God and then sent to hell in one paragraph! That's me well and truly scuppered then!

Ah well, I'm off down the pub to meet with some real people and lick my wounds..... anyone fancy a pint?

S

sermonindex Dec 18, 2008

Thanks for your prayers Frank.....I need all I can get get! It would appear that I am a lion in a den of Daniels..Lord deliver me from Your please! Amen!

Blessings upon thee the noo Frank.

J

JoanM Dec 18, 2008

The next sermon on my “to hear” list today was ~~[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=5273&commentView=itemComments]~~Satan Found A Whisperer by Keith Daniel[/url]

S

sermonindex Dec 18, 2008

The preahcing was poor. In my opion. it was very poor and the last sermon was just plain weird. No judging of the brother here, his ministry or his relationship with God. The message and the delivery was, in my opinion, very, VERY strange.

Some good stuff happened in Greenock I hear. Great! 99.99999999% of greenock neither know or care that a 'revival; happened. It's still cold, dark and hopeless over Greenock mate. You judge.

E

enid Dec 18, 2008

How long before this thread is locked?

S

sermonindex Dec 18, 2008

Forgive me for rushing off. I have to go and try and be a Pastor and a preacher, find out where I can tap into that flow of consciousness (please God) and then sell some books. (just 14.99 by the way) Oh! AND get saved, grab a bite to eat, then weep. fast and pray for revival, beating the floor in a regular, though definitly not new age, rhythm.

please feel free to contact me directly on robert@whisperingword.com

though no death threats please, my folder for death threats and Christian cursing is over flowing already! Plus IT'S CHRISTMAS! BE NICE. Try it, it feels good.

Thanks!

S

sermonindex Dec 18, 2008

Enid...BE NICE..it;s Christmas!

S

sermonindex Dec 18, 2008

Ah Joan, well that would account for a lot of the problems you/we are having!

N

notmyown Dec 18, 2008

I dont recall anyone saying Revival happened in Greenock. It was a cry for Revival and it has birthed something in many a heart that will continue for years to come.

I have never seen a truer man of God than Keith Daniel and if you would listen to more of his sermons you would understand that he is walking in close relationship with God and seeing miracles etc.

You have no respect for those who are attempting to lead holy lives judging by the distain you use towards the 'holiness people' and their ways.

(Is this guy what they call a forum troll?)

S

sermonindex Dec 18, 2008

Joan...please-- your just being nasty now! ouch..

E

enid Dec 18, 2008

Just thinking out loud.

Merry Christmas!

N

notmyown Dec 18, 2008

Forgive me for rushing off. I have to go and try and be a Pastor and a preacher, find out where I can tap into that flow of consciousness (please God) and then sell some books. (just 14.99 by the way) Oh! AND get saved, grab a bite to eat, then weep. fast and pray for revival, beating the floor in a regular, though definitly not new age, rhythm.

Is this guy for real? The mockery is shocking! and he wonders why there's no revival!??!

S

sermonindex Dec 18, 2008

No I am not a troll.......Good grief Charlie brown... I love Jesus. He loves me! imagine that..... you might try it his example!

No, nothing against the brother, i donlt know him, the essence of my comment is that Greenock and the people there, were despite ministering to thier own constituents, mostly, completely irrelevent to the city. Some folks wee saved, some good was done, Hallelihah. But mostly.....nothing...... in my opinion....may I have one?

R

RobertW Dec 18, 2008

Some good stuff happened in Greenock I hear. Great! 99.99999999% of greenock neither know or care that a 'revival; happened. It's still cold, dark and hopeless over Greenock mate. You judge.

No one has said that what has started in Greenock is by any means complete. I am taken by how impatient folk can be. Like everywhere, there is a work to be done. There are laborers that must come to the harvest. The world in which Christ was born was a dark place. I can't recall anyone walking out of the cave where Jesus likely was resting as a babe and exclaiming- "Well, heres the Messiah, where the results?" It is plain cynical and pessimistic to not leave room for God to work.

S

sermonindex Dec 18, 2008

It's a literary device! It's called humour. Sprinkled witha little irony.... My American brethren will have to look that one up in the dictionary.

R

RobertW Dec 18, 2008

No, nothing against the brother, i donlt know him, the essence of my comment is that Greenock and the people there, were despite ministering to thier own constituents, mostly, completely irrelevent to the city. Some folks wee saved, some good was done, Hallelihah. But mostly.....nothing...... in my opinion....may I have one?

Your thankfullness and praise is lacking the eloquence of your criticism. YOU judge.

S

sermonindex Dec 18, 2008

I don"t mind leaving space for Grace---room for God-- but let's not hype it up brethren!

S

sermonindex Dec 18, 2008

now your just getting angry Robert...calm down...

R

RobertW Dec 18, 2008

Your thankfullness and praise is lacking the eloquence of your criticism. YOU judge.
now your just getting angry Robert...calm down...

I'm pretty calm really. But it is hard for me to take seriously a dialogue in which criticism is articulated with precision and praise is thrown out in pseudo ebonics (ed. and btw I consider my conversation a mix between ebonics and Jed Clampett). But I tend to be more careful when speaking of the things of God.

S

sermonindex Dec 18, 2008

explain?

S

sermonindex Dec 18, 2008

received by private email!
I read your comments on Sermon Index regarding the revival conference. I went to the conference in Lilburn, GA and walked away feeling the same way.

The group was small. There was a sense that the people were trying to force something. They seem to be seeking a greater power instead of humility. Often the charismatic sect is criticized while the Calvinist side display this awkward piety. When in truth God is on the throne and we are in the mercy seat.

I understand completely what you had to say. I believe your words are a warning to the proud on that website. They seem quite ridiculous most of the time. The real church are those whom God has chosen out of the world to live in fellowship with Him in a humble way. No one does good. No one seeks God. Yet, so much argument over foolish things.

I am grateful to be chosen. I think you are too. I have decided to no longer listen or participate in foolishness. Instead, I will know God and enjoy Him. I will pray for the lost and do what I am led to do according to His word.

R

RobertW Dec 18, 2008

explain?

OK Here is the 'praise quote'

No, nothing against the brother, i donlt know him, the essence of my comment is that Greenock and the people there, were despite ministering to thier own constituents, mostly, completely irrelevent to the city. Some folks wee saved, some good was done, Hallelihah. But mostly.....nothing...... in my opinion....may I have one?

Does that read like the first series of criticisms? Why is there not more care taken in coming off as if you are sincere here?

S

sermonindex Dec 18, 2008

Dear Brother,

Lest you become discouraged, please remember that there is a big difference between an opinion and an informed opinion.

Most Americans suffer from opinionitis with no true knowledge. Humility is lacking in our failing country. As we sink spiritually our arrogance abounds. Everyone thinks they should speak regardless of intelligence, experience, understanding or knowledge. Most are not saved. They walked down an aisle and were told that they are going to heaven.

The bible wasn't written in English or originated in America. Most people never consider that truth. It's all about the cash.

Enjoy Him Forever!
________________

It's like that bumper sticker "Jesus Love You...But, I'm His Favorite". How shocking it will be in His presence to see who He actually selected and what His original intent is. People on that site need to get a life and perhaps a job.

I'm sure my thoughts will cause a few angry opinions. You are loved by the most high!

S

sermonindex Dec 18, 2008

I am sincere. i donlt know the brother or his heart.

I heard his semron and saw his delivery. THEY WERE WEIRD. No, I mean that sincerely.

H

hulsey Dec 18, 2008

Perhaps if you described "how" it was weird and why.

Eating sushi and whale blubber is weird for me, but in Japan sushi is perfectly normal, and in Alaska so is whale blubber. Because it's weird to me doesn't mean that something is wrong with it. Your pronouncement that it was weird is coming off as a judgment that it was wrong.

Blessings,
Jeremy Hulsey

S

sermonindex Dec 18, 2008

Is he a present cultrual icon? Would people know who Jed Clampett was? How about Oor Wille? Hmmm....maybe you need to go and sit on a bucket brother and meditate a little more abut cultural relevenace......

S

sermonindex Dec 18, 2008

I don't think it was a case of right or wrong. Most Scots would have thought our brother had stepped out of the local looney bin. It was bizarre!

S

sermonindex Dec 18, 2008

I am a memner of the D.N.A.

the National Dyslexic Association.

so no matter how hard I try, soemtimes my eloquence eludes me.

E

enid Dec 18, 2008

whispering,

May I ask, why did you go to the conference?

H

hulsey Dec 18, 2008

I don't think it was a case of right or wrong. Most Scots would have thought our brother had stepped out of the local looney bin. It was bizarre!

Ok, this begs a couple of questions from me. If it was out of the normal for a Scot, then was he wrong in his delivery, or his message? Was his view of Holy Scripture not compatable with Scot culture? (yes, my questions are leading I'll confess, but they are sincere and mean no harm.)

And finally, this question got buried a few pages back....How do you define revival? and how is what you define opposed to what took place in Greenock?

Blessings,
Jeremy Hulsey

S

sermonindex Dec 18, 2008

Ok Whispering,

You talked about cultural relevence, you mentioned it, and yet you say that you are using humor as a literary device. A literary device is used to convey a message, is it not? Yet you are using British humor, which is always very irreverant, to most of the people on this forum who could not be expected to understand it. Should you not, as Paul did on Mars Hill, address the audience in a manner that they could understand?

And brother, I quoted those Scriptures because I could not "feel the love," coming from you. Perhaps I am wrong, but you seem to be taking pleasure in making people angry? Am I wrong? Are you deliberatly trying to lead people into sin?

Even if you have good points to make, your cynicism and anger will always nullify them. Its the Truth in love that is powerful, the truth itself can be used to deliberately destroy people. There is and always has been in the Church, a "Shimeien spirit." (my phrase) We do well never to fall into that category, or if we are on the receiving end of it, we respond in like manner as David did.......brother Frank

2Sa 16:13 And David and his men went by the highway. And Shimei went along on the hillside over across from him, and cursed as he went, and threw stones at him, and threw dust.

S

sermonindex Dec 18, 2008

I love the sermons of SermonIndex.net
Some of the old stuff is just unbeatable (in my opinion.) I am a preacher, I am driven by the annointing and the gifting as well as the calling. I also deal in the art of communicating. (see my new book - The Preaching Driven Church - advance copies available for just 12.99) :-) (Oh come on crack a smile!

So, I went to observe and be around, and learn from the best of the best. Also, our church has a 'fight club' for aspiring preachers and we use sermon index as a resource very regularly. My perosnal favourite and mentor is Dr. J Vernon McGee....(give it up folks for JVM and Thru The Bible Mnistries! Yeeeehah!... I think he would have ripped the speakers at Greenock to shreds!)

I have just taken on my new charge and the first 5 months have been pretty exhausintg and I received an invitation to go there with a good friend of mine. We had free acomodation in Stirling. So off I went. I went to get blessed. Get rested, get fired up and also, meet with God.

I came away dissapointed..

I live in a post Christian nation. I live in the Laodicean church age. I live with blindeness in the church. I live with an absence of the Holy Spirit in my land. He is not convicting of sin, righteous and judgement to come. We are destitute, we are under judgement, we are going to hell in a handbag. I live and work on the front line and I have NO DOUBT that without revival, REAL REVIVAL, that in a matter of years, I shall be in jail for my faith and this nation shall be an Islamic state. I have no time for rubbish either from lakeland or greenock and NO TIME for Christians who peddle it and call it a revival from God.

I am seeking a true Revival. Why dd you go?

P

PaulWest Dec 18, 2008

I have decided to no longer listen or participate in foolishness

Same here. For the benefit of everyone here, I'm putting this thread into the ground where it belongs. I've read all the posts, so this is not an impetuous action on my part.

Whisperer, you came here like a bolt of lightning, making your debut with a polarizing thread. Your responses have been less than godly; your tenor comes across here as most flippant and loose. Subsequent posts are purely didactic, and it is clear you came here to criticize, unilaterally teach, and promote your own website. This may be winked at in other Christian forums, but not here. There is a precious unity we endeavor to maintain here - in keeping with the Apostle Paul's yearning - and since your debut you have done nothing but undermine this. It is okay to disagree, but there is a fine line between disagreement and discord. I am sensing the latter.

This thread is terminated. Please consider your motives for joining our fellowship.

Brother Paul

S

sermonindex Dec 18, 2008

As usual my American friends...WORLD WIDE WEB means outside of the USA.

Frank, just 'man up' bro! You are a testimony to failure of man in the church who cannot call a spade a shovel.

No offence bro, but you sound too whimpish.

As to love, as to anger...may my anger, bey my fury be my love...Christianit in MY COUNTRY IS DEAD. IN 40 YEARS TIME, WE SHALL CLOSE THE VERY LAST OF OUR CHURCHES. we are in an irrecoverable nose dive. Angry, no I AM FURIOUS! I am ready along with Lord me thinks to puke out all that is dead and mealy mouthed. We must have real revival. There is no if's and there is no buts..WE MUST have real revival. Greenock came no where near. Indeed, I weep with frustration and despair and my beother Frank, don't even think you can begin to uderstand what we have lost in this country and the the most dreadful state of our churches. You have no idea. I am a true patriot, I love my land, I am passionate about it and life is testimony to that. I think, there will be a time, when we shall have lay down our lives for reviaval. Beleive me, this is a true consideration for thoughtful folks over here. A true consideration.

S

sermonindex Dec 18, 2008

"The servant of the Lord MUST not strive!"...Striving will steal your peace, and thereby your walk with God. Striving often has it's roots in justifying your SELF. Remember, You shall know them by their fruits...and these must be judged both by the Holy Spirit within, and the Holy written Word without.

"The wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy.

"Now the fruit of righteousness is sewn in peace, by those who make peace."

"Where, then, do wars and fights come among you?"James 3, 17 and 18..

James chapter 4

Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the World, makes himself an enemy of God.

Saints, this is obvious where this is intentioned...to no good. I see this fellow as Paul did unto those who loved the preminence,and the world, and sought to draw disciples after themselves. A grievous wolf, who thrives on contention.