Purpose Driven Life

I would like to know what other thoughts people have on Rick Warren's book "A Purpose Driven Life". Does anyone feel this book is more of a psychological piece of junk or Gospel truth? From what I've read so far, it glorifies man's ways and programs over Christ and "The Faith"(the finished works of Christ). What are your thoughts?The Evangelist

Oh, it's come up a few times around here :-( Here is a couple of threads:Purpose Driven Life vs. My Utmost?The Purpose Driven CrazeThese are related more towards The Purpose Driven Church:Apostolic Christianity and the Transfer of WealthThe Pied Pipers of Purpose

This book is a piece of trash. If any 'Christian book' is being sold out in secular book stores can't possibly be of God. It is an abomination that the church has allowed. I had a couple of friends of mine go to his whack Saddleback church. They dont even have Bibles!? Anyways, he preaches a soulish gospel and if you haven't noticed, it has not changed the moral climate of our churches or our nation. That in and of itself says it all. Peace. God bless.

Hi Forevidence,I take issue with your reasoning completely. First, the fact that a Christian book (no quotation marks) is being sold in secular book stores does not say anything about its merits and demerits. The secular book store in my neighbourhood sells Bibles as well; by your logic, the Bible cannot possibly be of God?Second, the behaviour of a small number of attendees at Saddleback does not thereby nullify the soundness of a book or a preacher. Of course, you are entitled to your own opinion. But I would rather you interact with the content of the book (which is what a "book review" means), rather than making sweeping generalisations like this.Please respect the fact that there are genuine, devoted Christians who hold different opinions on this book. What really "says it all" is ultimately our attitude and love (or lack of) towards our fellow Christians.

Personally I have not read the book yet, even though I bought it to read it. From what I see in people's lives who read the book, I don't think it is a deep book. I read the papers as given below in The Pied Pipers of Purpose also given in another reply and from that I don't believe the book to be inspired by God, but rather man trying to mix his ideas with that of God - something that can and will never work.I will urge every one to take a look at the websites and papers, as it gives one quite an insight in where this book and new theology comes from and where it is leading. It is that theology that takes the same languge into their mouths as the Bible and the gospel of Jesus Christ, but have a totally different basis and outcome in the end. It is the smooth cross theology, something that won't ever bring you to God or heaven.Here is just a quote from discernment ministries.Love in ChristJanusDISCERNMENT MINISTRIES, INC. P. O. Box 254High Bridge, NJ 08829 May 1, 2004 From the Editor: There is no doubt we are seeing a world-wide phenomenon. It is overwhelming in the speed of its growth. From the Purpose-Driven website the following is a quote: Right now about 5,000 more churches are doing the 40 Day of Purpose campaign, and now the program has been adopted by corporations (like Coke and Walmart) sports teams (like the Oakland Raiders and Green Bay Packers, NASCAR drivers, and the LPGA) schools, civic clubs, and even prisons. Last week, Paul Harvey told everyone to go buy a copy of PDL on his ABC radio broadcast. He said "This is one of the most insightful books I've ever read and I will read it again...and again...and again." In 2004 we expect over 15,000 more churches to participate. Discernment Ministries has been sending out a newsletter for fifteen years. As we have watched developments unfold in the church we knew that there was indeed a “plan” unfolding. However, none of the researchers had a clear picture of the “plan”. Many articles and newsletters have been written. There is a plethora of information available on the internet. God has used many diverse, and for the most part unobtrusive, servants to glean facets of truth. These dedicated folk have not sought any earthly reward. Their only desire is a burning love and zeal for the Gospel of Jesus Christ to be preserved in its purity. Several research conferences were held in which we were all aware that parts of the puzzle of giant proportions were indeed coming together. For the first time this has been laid out in a clear and defined manner in the booklet, which we have enclosed. Because of the urgency of the subject matter, it was decided not to wait until a book was completed, but to make available to you Part 1 of The Pied Pipers of Purpose. This booklet is extremely important and you will want to obtain copies to give out – especially to pastors and church leaders. We are indeed humbled and blessed by the dedicated commitment of God’s people to truth. Our prayer is that the many leaders who have been caught up in the excitement of building mega churches will “stop, look and listen” before they deviate from the true call of the Gospel of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. We are sending this out to you in place of the May/June newsletter. As the Lord provides, we will also get the booklet out to our mailing lists in Europe, Australia, South Africa and other parts of the world. Printing and postage costs are exorbitant, so every donation helps tremendously. Our request is that you read this booklet prayerfully and check out the research for yourself before making judgments. Be a true Berean! In the Service of the King, Jewel Grewe___________________How one man's gospel tale became a global bestseller For one of the most powerful religious figures in America, Pastor Rick Warren looks very casual. Wearing a blue Hawaiian shirt and loafers, he puts his feet up on his office table and cracks a broad grin. 'If I didn't believe in Jesus, I would be a millionaire with a yacht, sitting in the sun on my own island,' he laughs. 'But instead I am a pastor.'Warren, dubbed 'America's pastor' by the media, has written one of the biggest-selling books of all time, generating tens of millions of dollars. He heads one of America's five largest 'mega-churches' and runs a religious network that spans the globe. If his religion were a business, then Warren would be a Wall Street mogul.His influence is growing all the time. He now plans to deliver a copy of his religious self-help tract, The Purpose-Driven Life, to every US soldier serving in Iraq. 'Copies are already hitting the sand,' Warren said. He is also preparing a trip to Britain next year when he will headline a meeting of the Baptist World Alliance in Birmingham alongside former President Jimmy Carter.Yet Warren is not a household name. He has crept under the media radar while building his religious empire. He has been a guest at the White House, he ministers privately to some of the most important figures in American industry and was instrumental in helping market Mel Gibson's controversial religious blockbuster, The Passion of the Christ .The Purpose-Driven Life has sold a staggering 20 million copies worldwide. It is, Warren says, selling a million a month. 'If you took Bill Clinton's book, Hillary Clinton's book, the latest Harry Potter and the Da Vinci Code and added them together, you still would not get the same as The Purpose-Driven Life ,' he boasted...Warren sits in a spacious office on the 'campus' of his Saddleback Church in the prosperous Lake Forest suburb of Orange County. He is on a mission that stretches far beyond Saddleback, far beyond America even. That mission is world domination. 'We need a billion footsoldiers,' he said 'If you love Jesus, we are on the same team.'...http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1258742,00.html

Hi Agent001Sometimes we as fellow christians see it as lovelessness when others confront us. In Paul's letters he really confrunted the church members, even though some of them believed and had different opinions than he did. I dont think we should make anny assumptions regarding the love or lack of it, especially over the internet and that of a brother with whom you might have to spend eternity!!I urge you to rather get hold of the pied papers I think it is and read and see for yourself. If our eyes is first opened we will all stagger at what is happening in this world!!!Love in ChristJanus

I agree with the sentiment that the book "is a piece of trash," but I also disagree with the reasoning that any book that sells well in secular stores cannot be from God, or that unchristian behavior among small parts of a pastor's congregation necessarily destroys his credibility as a Christian author. If a church has good discipline you shouldn't see too much of the latter, and if the book is sufficiently anti-sin you you shouldn't see too much of the former, but if it's a pastor from a fairly large church or one with deficient discipline (which isn't good, but not exactly the mark of the beast, either), and it's a sufficiently well-written book on some theological topic not overly connected to the sinfulness of the reader...

Well, the reason I mentioned that argument about it being in a secular bookstore is not just because it is being sold in a secular store, but rather the fact that it is being sold out in a secular store in which non-believers are being it. Now that can be good if the book can change your life like the bible or'why revival tarries.' But we see it thus far that it has not changed our church or state. The book has no power in it. It simply brings forth that lukewarm, abominable, and watered down gospel. The fact that people's life has changed has nothing to do with it either. Your life can change reading the satanic bible. Even positive change is not good enough. It has to be Holy Spirit filled change we see in the bible, and that eventually will change our nation. All these people recommend it but it has really done nothing. The fruit of the man's ministry is highly questionable, because of the people that are under him. If the people don't see an importance to cleave to their swords(bible), what does that tell you of the pastor? Saddleback is one of the biggest churches on the southern california area, and yet southern cali is still the same. Im just weary of big hipe that doesn't produce big Holy Ghost results. Thus far this book has made millions of dollars off Christians, and the church is still bankrupt of spiritual riches. So that's my opinion.

Thus far, I fail to see much interaction with the content of the book itself. I have yet to see a fair assessment of its content. It appears that the only "sin" that the author commits thus far is that of writing a best-seller and being successful (but of course, the fact that he does not pocket the money for his own personal gain seems to be conveniently omitted as usual). The book is not the greatest book on earth (However, I think it has a balanced approach to Christian spirituality--even though it is more introductory than in-depth). I do not think it will rank high among many other spiritual classics. So it is surprising that it has become a best-seller, and we can probably attribute this to media hype. Nevertheless, there's nothing in the book that indicate to me that it is an "abomination of the church". Contrary to such thinking, I happen to think that God (not Satan) has used this book to arouse the spiritual thirst of people who would otherwise be reading Chicken Soup for Pet-Lovers. Now comes my very personal opinion: I think a lot of people, Christians included, simply cannot stand others being successful.

After reading this recent article:A Steady Christian InfluenceWhich gives two opposing views, more or less the optimist and pessimist view of the state of Christianity, make that "Christiandom".The above link is the optimist view point (The pessimist will be posted tomorrow)I have the magazine and have read both already and frankly don't see that either one really gets to the heart of the matter and conviently leaves out too much that should be taken into consideration. Forgetting about for instance rampant divorce on the one side and as it relates to this topic here, well here is snippet:"There are fewer R-rated films produced now than there were 10 years ago. And one of the most successful R-rated films is The Passion of the Christ.The bestselling books in America, and around the world, in recent years have included The Prayer of Jabez, Left Behind, and The Purpose-Driven Life""All this seems to suggest is popularity and since when was the Gospel 'popular'? At best it is a testament to how far we have gone to show the world that we are just like them, able to compete with the best of them in selling our wares. Being 'successful' seems to imply that we can generate much heat and little light. I guess it depends on what we mean by being successful. If all these things were producing true change in hearts and lives, were is the fruit?Have thought about writing a book on Death, (seriously) and if I had the backing on it that these same publishers who are savy enough to market it and somehow was able to keep strict control over it's content (which otherwise I wouldn't bother) and was to include all the hard hitting statements that the Lord spoke about, namely Hell, judgement, denying yourself, taking up your cross, suffering, persecution (past and present, including all the gruesome details, torture, being burned alive, etc.) Do we really think we would have a best seller on our hands?I guess what I am getting at is that while there may be worse out there and there certainly is, the content is not telling the whole story in any of these. That may not have been there purpose. But where are the bestsellers that speak of anything beyond a surface level? Where are the publications that would "cut to the heart"?Where are all the conversions? What is the bottom line of all this 'success'?

crsschk and all,In my personal experience, there were quite a number of spiritually thirsty seekers or new believers who told me that The Purpose-Driven Life is the first serious book on the Christian faith that they have dabbled in. For the generation growing up in this multimedia, information age, finishing one book outside of the Chicken Soup series is already quite a feat. Thus, I find PDL to be a good stepping stone to guide them into other spiritual classics. It is a spiritual milk that leads to more solid food. (And I have found nothing in its content that causes me great concern--nor have I found reviews that adequately point out the problems inherent in its content. Most negative reviews, it seems to me, flow out of concerns about the bigger issue of "popular" Christianity--how it is marketed and hyped up by media). So my approach has always been more pastoral than critical--how do I encourage and guide these people to continue to grow in Christ?All this seems to suggest is popularity and since when was the Gospel 'popular'? ...Have thought about writing a book on Death...Do we really think we would have a best seller on our hands?My take on this: of course, we should not seek to be popular at the expense of compromising the truth (by the way, I haven't seen any concrete evidence that PDL did compromise the truth.) But that does not mean anything popular is bad.It's all in God's hand and His timing is always the best. Billy Graham is a popular evangelist. C. S. Lewis is a popular Christian writer. I would not automatically assume that crsschk's book on death will never become a bestseller. Perhaps, in His time and according to His way, this might be so. With God everything is possible.

Thanks Sam,Have been pondering on this since my last reply. It's interesting the way a train of thought can go when it is coupled with another line of thinking. Which is what I believe I had done here in marrying it to the mentioned article. The result being a generalization.In my personal experience, there were quite a number of spiritually thirsty seekers or new believers who told me that The Purpose-Driven Life is the first serious book on the Christian faith that they have dabbled in. For the generation growing up in this multimedia, information age, finishing one book outside of the Chicken Soup series is already quite a feat. Thus, I find PDL to be a good stepping stone to guide them into other spiritual classics. It is a spiritual milk that leads to more solid food. (And I have found nothing in its content that causes me great concern--nor have I found reviews that adequately point out the problems inherent in its content. Most negative reviews, it seems to me, flow out of concerns about the bigger issue of "popular" Christianity--how it is marketed and hyped up by media). So my approach has always been more pastoral than critical--how do I encourage and guide these people to continue to grow in Christ?Great points. It is all too easy to forget that there is a starting point for everybody. As a stepping stone I agree and I also don't believe we are talking anything heretical here either.I was actually humbled yesterday ironically. Was doing some work for a elderly couple, very dear people. She asked me yesterday if I was a Catholic and I stated "Well...I used to be, but I am a Christian" After some dialog about my upbringing and a bit of my testimony from prodigal to today and her own experience (long time Catholic) She asked why I had left, wasn't sure if she meant the Faith or being "Catholic", but nodded with understanding about the differences we share. We were talking about our love for books and she picked up a handful of Catholic titles and....."The Purpose Driven Life"Felt the hypocrite a bit by saying "Ah yes, I have read that" In light of my recent comments here....Was sincerely glad to know that she was reading this and not some book by a prosperity teacher.I was and am humbled once again.So my approach has always been more pastoral than critical--how do I encourage and guide these people to continue to grow in Christ?That says a lot if it doesn't say it all from this perspective. But I still think there is warrant for some caution brought out by others that have already been addressed in other threads on this topic. The over commercialization and spin off products and programs. The sense that our churches need spiritual milk when they should be far into sides of beef by now...it's just opinion, what do I know?A side note. Progressing through this pile of backed up books, finally got around to "God's Smuggler" Brother Andrew and as part of my musing on all this in recent days, it was a bit striking, right in front of my eyes on the cover:"10 Million Copies in Print"To clarify a bit on the "Death" book, (hmmm, maybe that's the title right there) would definitely be striving to strike a balance, but it would be an emphasis on the 'bad' news before the 'good news', which isn't really a balance...Of course neither is our sin in comparison to our Saviour.Thanks brother.

For another perspective or deeper look into this phenomenon please read this article by Berit Kjos. http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/2003/1-purpose.htmand the follow the thread to the other articles in the same series. They are long.jouko

crsschk:I like your latest reply; it comes very close to how I see this issue. I appreciate your thoughtful consideration of my line of thinking.Sam

I want to address a few lines you had written. So my approach has always been more pastoral than critical--how do I encourage and guide these people to continue to grow in Christ?As Christian people, we shouldn't be encouraging others to grow in "Psychology". We should be encouraging them to die to self, by the which i.e. can only be done through THE CROSS!!! According to Mr. Psychological Warren himself, we can grow in God and/or be delivered from sin and temptation through the works of the flesh, which is totally contrary to the very teachings of the Apostle Paul and other writers. Maybe you have forgotten that there isn't any good thing in us (Romans 7), and we have not the power to deliver ourselves from the dominion of sin. As Paul wrote in Galatians, It's no more I that live but Christ living in me. According to Warren in PDL, we can obtain deliverance through teachings similar to A.A. (Alcoholics Anonymous)...or in other words - A 12-Step Program - which will actually put our minds on methods. One man of God said one time, "It's the message, NOT the method" that is capable of setting a person free. Which actually brings me to the concern, Have you yourself actually read the book? In my personal experience, there were quite a number of spiritually thirsty seekers or new believers who told me that The Purpose-Driven Life is the first serious book on the Christian faith that they have dabbled in.They "told you" about it...don't see any where you said that you read it. So my approach has always been more pastoral than criticalAnd one more thing -- a pastor or a shepherd is not going to allow that which is going to destroy the flock into the church, unless he himself is blinded and unaware to the unbiblical teaching that is taking place in 62% or even more of God's Holy house today. I hope you do change your heart more than your train of thought to that of a pastoral approach to any stiuation. You just might be accountable one day of those you failed to warn of "wolves in sheeps clothing."

I've been following this thread for a bit and thought I'd finally weigh in with my two cents. We've been using Purpose Driven Life in our ministry here to reach the Hakka Chinese ... and with great effect. It not only leads the non-Christian down the right road towards the cross, but challenges the believers in not being led astray from the "simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ." It is a simple book - and that is its strength. I cringe to see people seeking after deeper knowledge when what they usually need is a fuller experience of the simple truths they already know. Someone once said, "Maturity is mastering the basics." I couldn't agree more. That's why I would never apologize for admitting that this book has taken me back - in a good way - to the basics. And why I would not apologize for encouraging our young churches here to read and apply the principles in this book to their lives. Agent001 has mentioned a couple of times that this is a great place to review what's actually said in the book (as opposed to making critical generalizations.) I agree. That's why I'd like to write the first sentence from every chapter (for the first ten chapters) and the subtitles from these chapters (if laid out.) This might at least give those who haven't read the book a chance to see some of the basic principles being espoused by Rick Warren.Chapter One:“It’s not about you.”Chapter Two: “You are not an accident.”Chapter Three:“Everyone’s life is driven by something.”1.\tMany people are driven by guilt.2.\tMany people are driven by resentment and anger.3.\tMany people are driven by fear.4.\tMany people are driven by materialism.5.\tMany people are driven by the need for approval.6.\tKnowing your purpose gives meaning to life.7.\tKnowing your purpose simplifies life.8.\tKnowing your purpose motivates your life.9.\tKnowing your purpose prepares you for eternity.Chapter Four:“This life is not all there is.”Chapter Five:“The way you see your life shapes your life.”1.\tLife on earth is a test.2.\tLife on earth is a Trust.Chapter Six:“Life on earth is a temporary assignment.”Chapter Seven:“It’s all for Him.”1.\tWe bring God glory by worshiping Him.2.\tWe bring God glory by loving other believers.3.\tWe bring God glory by becoming like Christ.4.\tWe bring God glory by serving others with our gifts.5.\tWe bring God glory by telling others about Him.Chapter Eight:“You were planned for God’s pleasure.”1.\tBringing pleasure to God is called “worship.”2.\tWorship is more than music.3.\tWorship is not for your benefit.Chapter Nine:“The smile of God is the goal of your life.”1.\tGod smiles when we love Him supremely.2.\tGod smiles when we trust Him completely.3.\tGod smiles when we obey Him wholeheartedly.4.\tGod smiles when we praise and thank Him continually.5.\tGod smiles when we use our abilities.Chapter Ten:“The heart of worship is surrender.”1.\tCan I trust God?2.\tAdmitting our limitations.3.\tWhat it means to surrender.4.\tThe blessing of surrender.5.\tThe best way to live.I’d copy more, but just don’t have the time. (Sorry) As I’ve been skimming over these chapters (and others in the book) I can’t help but be a bit puzzled by accusations that PDL is just another example of easy believism. Over and over Rick Warren calls us to the cross. (ie - It’s not about you, it’s about Jesus. You must surrender every area of your life completely and joyfully to Him.) Are we reading different books?Please – if you have a problem with the book, at least do us (and Rick Warren) the courtesy of quoting the offending portion instead of giving us your own interpretation of what’s offensive. Then we can dialogue over what’s really written instead of a vague concept.

My first question to the people who are bagging PDL and Rick Warren is "Have you actually read the book?" It's easy to form an opinion on something that you nothing about, due to ignorance. It's even easier to form an opinion on something that has been approached with a biased perspective, based on other peoples opinions and propoganda (yes, I've read "that related document" too).As Christian people, we shouldn't be encouraging others to grow in "Psychology". We should be encouraging them to die to self, by the which i.e. can only be done through THE CROSS!!! Firstly, while this statement, in essence is true, the only way to truly serve God is to die the Gal 2:20 death, and the only way to the cross is via futile attempts at fullfilling the Law in your own strength. In some way "psychology" can be a tool used to come to this realisation. One must accept that we are tripart in nature (body, soul, spirit), which means that we must look after our body via exersize, our spirit through devotional discipline, and soul (psyche) via applied disciplined thought life. If we "die to self" we still need to combat the "strongholds" in our thought life, using the "weapons of our warfare" that are "mighty" for pulling them down. True psychology, is applying the Psalms to our "emotions", and Proverbs to our "will", and Ecclessiasties to our "reason".Sorry, I know major tangent. My own experience with PDL, began 5 years ago, when our church adopted Purpose Driven Church as part of our strategy. Essetially, the concept of 5 spiritual purposes, comes for Acts 2:42-47, which describes the early NT church's begining. Warren's goal, was for a return to his view of what the NT church was, in the it wasn't based around a program, but a process that saw people "added daily" and discipled, as opposed to just becoming "pew warmers". One thing the Warren seeks to do, in his books, is to admit that, however much we try to deny it, people look at "features and benefits", with everything they do. We shows the "features and benefits" of the gospel, as well as outlining our obligations. Essentially, how the message and heart of the gospel interacts with our life in a practicle sense.Our church embarked on the "40 Days of Purpose" this year (incidently, the Lord had me avoid reading the book, in favour of listening to Ravenhill and Tozer;-)...however, the sermons that I listened to, lined up with the sermons being preached from Warren's material). Warren mentioned, in his introduction, that one of the most significant moments in his life, was father on his deathbed becoming anxious, and all of a sudden, sat up screaming "Gotta win one more for Jesus". This is the basis behind PDL.On a whole, I don't really have an issue with the teaching contained in the book. However, some of the meathods can be a bit destructive, although very subtly. A friend and I were discussing the use of Powerpoint presnetations during preaching. On one hand, we are a visual generation, and diagrams and photos, can be effective tools for communicating a point. One trend seems to be emerging that can be seen throughout PDL. The use of multiple Bible translations during preaching. I'm not trying to say, that there's only one true translation, or we should all go KJV, but there is something about reading from the same translation, that helps with retention. It is hard enough to memorise something, without changing the wording 3 or 4 times during a series of teaching.Although this seems like a smmal thing, don't forget that it's the "little foxes the spoils the vine". In an age of ever increasing darkness, one of the greatest necessities is for us to memorise His Word.As Leonard Ravenhill puts it, "We thinking that it'll be Revival or concetration camps, but Ithink it'll be revival AND concentration camps."Lord, prepare us for persecution, whether it comes or not.

Some quotes from "The Purpose Driven Life" by Rick Warren. Sounds pretty solid to me.“This act of personal surrender (to God) is called many things: consecration, making Jesus your Lord, taking up your cross, dying to self, yielding to the Spirit. What matters is that you do it, not what you call it. God wants your life – all of it. Ninety-five percent is not enough.”“Surrendering is best demonstrated in obedience. You say, ‘yes, Lord’ to whatever He asks of you. To say ‘no, Lord’ is to speak a contradiction. You can’t call Jesus your Lord when you refuse to obey Him.” “God doesn’t owe you an explanation or reason for everything he asks you to do. Understanding can wait, but obedience can’t. Instant obedience will teach you more about God than a lifetime of Bible discussions. In fact, you will never understand some commands until you obey them first. Obedience unlocks understanding.”“Genuine surrender says, ‘Father, if this problem, pain, sickness, or circumstance is needed to fulfill your purpose and glory in my life or in another’s, please don’t take it away.’ This level of maturity does not come easy. In Jesus’ case, He agonized so much over God’s plan that He sweat drops of blood. Surrender is hard work. In our case, it is intense warfare against our self-centered nature.”“The most difficult area to surrender for many people is their money. Many have thought, ‘I want to live for God but I also want to earn money to live comfortably and retire someday.’ Retirement is not the goal of a surrendered life, because it competes with God for the primary attention of our lives.” “Sometimes it takes years, but eventually you discover that the greatest hindrance to God’s blessing in your life is not others, it is yourself – your self-will, stubborn pride, and personal ambition. You cannot fulfill God’s purposes for your life while focusing on your own plans.”

Hi all,theevangelist: The answer is yes, I have read PDL and I enjoyed it. I do not find any traces of secular psychology within the book, nor do I find the claims that this book is "destructive" to be substantial, thus far.CJaKfOrEsT: I worry more about today's Christians (especially those in North America) not engaging in serious Bible study at all than the trend of using multiple translations. But yes, I do think it is beneficial for a single congregation to stick to one translation for public use, although the use of other translations for specific verses to make a point during preaching is quite acceptable to me.HakkaMin: Excellent point concerning living out simple but profound truths rather than seeking "deeper" and "higher" knowledge:It is a simple book - and that is its strength. I cringe to see people seeking after deeper knowledge when what they usually need is a fuller experience of the simple truths they already know. Someone once said, "Maturity is mastering the basics." Excellent!

Hello all. I have not read the book and have no intention of reading it. I found this persons thoughts on the book and would like to share it, he seems to have read it.joukoAnalysis Of the BookPurpose Driven ® Life by Rick Warren By Merv TuckerOpening CommentsRick Warren is the pastor of Saddleback Church in California , and the writer of The Purpose Driven® Church and The Purpose Driven ® Life series of best selling books. With The Purpose Driven® Church Rick Warren targeted pastors and church leaders, now with the release of The Purpose Driven® Life ; he turns his attention to laypeople. Since its release in 2002, literally thousands of churches have either used or are using this book in a campaign called '40 Days of Purpose'.Rick Warren may well be a very sincere Christian pastor and his book does have some practical truths for believers today. However, even though the book has some very positive aspects, the fact that this book is promoted as a spiritual journey, it must be looked at carefully.Any error should be exposed by the light of scripture. Rick Warren does a lot of what bible scholars call ‘proof texting', that means he often takes scripture out of context to back up his point or to sound persuasive.In appendix 3 at the rear of the book, Rick Warren explains his use of 15 different translations. He states ‘no matter how wonderful a translation is, it has its limitation'. This may be true, but to use 15 different translations, many of them paraphrases and free translations is not good scholarship practice. It can be helpful to read verses in many different versions, but when using paraphrases and free translations, the original meaning of the text can be lost.Please do not misunderstand me, free translations such as The Message, or paraphrases such as The Living Bible or The New Living Bible, may have their place, but only if they hold to the meaning of the original text . As you will see, some of these do not. When doing serious study, it is a better practice to choose two or three reliable versions and go with them. If a verse is a little hard to understand, then give some explanation to shed some light, after all, that is what good exegesis is.Rick Warren also states at the bottom of appendix 3 ‘I haven't always quoted the entire verse, but rather focused on the phrase that was appropriate. My model for this is Jesus and how He and the Apostles quoted the Old Testament'.However, Jesus and the Apostles did not take those portions of scripture out of context when they quoted the Old Testament, something Rick Warren needs to take note of.Let us now look at the book itself.IntroductionRick Warren states on (page 9) “Whenever God wanted to prepare someone for his purposes, he took 40 days;Noah's life was transformed by 40 days of rain. Moses was transformed by 40 days on Mount Sinai . The spies were transformed by 40 days in the Promised Land. David was transformed by Goliath's 40 days of challenge. Elijah was transformed when God gave him 40 days of strength from a single meal. The entire city of Nineveh was transformed when God gave the people 40 days to change. Jesus was empowered by 40 days in the wilderness. The disciples were transformed by 40 days with Jesus after the resurrection.” This is a misrepresentation of scripture. The bible does not teach as Rich Warren suggests that whenever God wanted to use someone he took 40 days.“Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God.” Genesis 6:9 the 40 days of rain was not at all to transform Noah, as Rick Warren wrongly suggests. Noah was already prepared when the rains came; he had spent approximately 100 years building the ark and was a preacher of righteousness. “If he (God) did not spare the ancient world when he bought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness and seven others.” ( 2 Peter 2:5) The 40 days of rain was God's judgement on a wicked and violent human race not a time of preparation or transformation for Noah. “ The Lord saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. The Lord was grieved that he had made man on the earth and his heart was filled with pain. So the Lord said,” I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them.” But Noah found favour in the eyes of the Lord. This is the account of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God . Noah had three sons: Shem, Ham and Japheth. Now the earth was corrupt in Gods sight and was full of violence. God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people of the earth had corrupted their ways. So God said “ I am going to put an end to all the people, for the earth is filled the violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth.” ( Genesis 6:5-13 ) (Emphasis added)Moses was not called up onto Mt Sinai to be transformed as Rick Warren states. Moses had been changed from the wilful young Hebrew who had left a man buried in the sands of Egypt by 40 years shepherding his father-in-laws sheep. Moses knew while he was still in Egypt that God was calling him to rescue his people, but they did not. “Moses thought that his own people would realise that God was using him to rescue them, but they did not.” ( Act 7:23-25 ) The problem was that Moses like so many churches today was trying to do things in his own strength. Amazing what 40 years in the wilderness alone with God can do to a man. When was Moses ready for what God had called him to?When he encountered God at the burning bush. This is clear from what God said to Moses at that time, “so now , go. I am sending you to Pharaoh to bring my people the Israelites out of Egypt .” ( Exodus 3:10 ) Note Moses response in ( verse 1)1 But Moses said to God “ Who am I that I should go to Pharaoh and bring the Israelites out of Egypt ?” (Exodus 3:11) Wow! The brash wilful young Moses is gone, now God has a man he can use and send, indeed the humble man, “more humble than anyone else on the face of the earth” . ( Numbers 12:3)Moses did not go up on to Mount Sinai to be transformed by God, scripture makes it clear that he went up to receive the law, and in obedience to God. The Lord said to Moses “ Come up to me on the mountain and stay here, and I will give you the tablets of stone, with the law and commandments I have written for their instruction.” (Exodus 24:12) Was Moses on the mountain 40 days and 40 nights? Yes! But not for transformation, it has much, much more to do with understanding God's command to “come up to me” (verse 12) Rick Warren also states “The spies were transformed by 40 days in the promised land.” Yes they were! Ten came back and gave a bad report to the people they were faithless; this report in turn turned the people away from God in disobedience. Only two, Joshua and Caleb, remained faithful. Infact Numbers states “But because my servant Caleb has a different spirit and follows me wholeheartedly, I will bring him into the land he went to, and his decedents will inherit it.” (Numbers 14:24 ). The 40 days the spies took in the land ended up being incredibly costly for the 10 who spread the bad report because they were struck down by a plague and died “These men responsible for spreading a bad report about the land were struck down and died of a plague before the Lord ( verse 3 7) . And Israel spent one year for each day the spies had been away wondering in the desert “For forty years—one year for each of the days you explored the land—you will suffer for your sins and know what it is like to have me against you.” ( verse 34) Rick Warren's assertion that David was transformed by Goliath's 40 days of challenge is also wide of the mark. If Mr Warren had placed this in its scriptural context, he would have found that David was sent by his father to take supplies to his older brothers who were with King Saul and the armies of Israel . David did not arrive until the last day of Goliath's taunting and challenging Israel . He did not even know about it before that. On his arrival at the battle lines, he was filled with indignation that this uncircumcised Philistine should defy the armies of the living God.David was not transformed by these 40 days of taunting from Goliath. David was a man after God's own heart. In fact, we find that from the day Samuel anointed David to be King the Spirit of the Lord came upon him in power. “ So Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the presence of his brothers, and from that day on the Spirit of the Lord came upon David in power. Samuel then went to Ramah. ( 1 Samuel 16:13 )We are then led to believe that Elijah was transformed when God gave him a single meal that gave him strength for 40 days. I do not doubt for one second that God can give strength for 40 days from one meal, or 80 days for that matter, but that is not what this passage is about. When Elijah arrived at Horeb he went into a cave for the night. The word of the Lord came to Elijah, “ What are you doing here Elijah?” This question was intended to reveal the thoughts and feelings hidden in Elijah's heart. Elijah answered, “ I have been very zealous for the Lord God Almighty. The Israelites have rejected your covenant, broken down your alters, and put your prophets to death with the sword. I am the only one left, and now they are trying to kill me too.” (1 Kings 19:10 ) Elijah's words, filled with despair, but also a sense of vengeance that the Almighty should immediately punish the idolaters. Because Elijah had not seen the results for his zeal, he thought all was lost. Poor Elijah wanted to reform things by tempest, which is not the gentle way God sometimes pursues in His grace.When bought to understand these things during his encounter with God, then he could go back the way he came as instructed by God. This was not about a meal that lasted 40 days. The meal and the 40 days walk did nothing to change Elijah's conditionI have been considering this passage for some time; it is so rich with meaning. There is so much in this passage, please go and read it for yourself. ( 1 Kings 19) The entire city of Nineveh was changed when Jonah went through the city telling them that God was going to send judgement on the city in 40 days and completely destroy the city. This again is about God's judgement, and the fact that a city repented of its sin in sackcloth and ashes and therefore received God's grace for a time. When God saw that they did (repent) and how they turned from their evil ways, he had compassion and did not bring upon them the destruction he had threatened. (Jonah 3:10) We know that later on Nineveh was infact destroyed by God because of its wickedness. Rick Warren also contends that Jesus was empowered by his 40 days in the wilderness. This again is a manipulation of the text. In fact, scripture in three of the four gospels makes it very clear that the Holy Spirit descended in bodily form at Jesus' baptism. John's gospel tells us that John the Baptist saw the Spirit come down and remain on Him and that by this happening; John was able to know who Jesus was. “Then John gave this testimony: “I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him. I would not have known him, except that the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is he who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.' I have seen and I testify that this is the Son of God.” ( John 1:32-34) Jesus was empowered at His baptism by the Holy Spirit, not after 40 days in the wilderness, which was a time of trial and testing ordained by the Father, directed by the Spirit and fulfilled by the Son. Luke's account does state “ Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit” (Luke 4:14 ) However this is not proof that Jesus was empowered by his time in the wilderness. But it is proof that he was empowered by the Holy Spirit, and when did the Spirit come upon him? At his baptism.Rick Warren would then have us believe that the disciples were transformed by 40 days with Jesus after the resurrection. Again there is no biblical evidence for this. It was infact at the day of Pentecost that the disciples were transformed from scared, frightened men into bold preachers of the word. It was the coming of the Holy Spirit that transformed them. “Stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.” (Luke 24:49) And “But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you…” (Acts 1:8) The bible does not teach that God will take 40 days to prepare people for his use. This is a manipulation of scripture to convince the reader of the importance of this book.The number 40 is very significant in scripture; it is ultimately linked to trials, testing and judgement.The 40 days of rain at the flood was judgement. The 40 years for Moses in the wilderness was testing, training and humbling. The 40 days of taunting by Goliath was about trial and testing for Israel . The 40 years in the wilderness for Israel was to do with testing and judgement. The 40 days on Mt Sinai for Moses to receive the law was also about testing for the people, and would they remain faithful to God while Moses was gone, and they didn't, so God passed judgement.

Day 2Rick Warren states (page 22) “Your parents may not have planned you, but God did.”In a world today where many, many thousands of babies are born outside of marriage, the above statement is to directly attribute those births to Gods plan, so therefore God is responsible for the sin in which they were conceived. God did not plan for children to be born outside of marriage. Those births are a result of sin, not God's planning.Rick Warren takes the passage from Psalm 138:8a (“The Lord will fulfill his purpose for me.”)NIV, out of its context to back up his thoughts for the day.He starts out by building a framework of God planning you, not being surprised by your birth, and then he states ‘You are alive because God wanted to create you'. To then link that to Psalm 138:8 is incorrect. This part of the psalm is about God delivering David from his enemies “Though I walk in the midst of trouble you preserve my life, you stretch out your hand against the anger of my foes, with your right hand you save me. : ( verse 7) Rick Warren takes only the first half of ( verse 8) and in doing so misrepresents the original context of the verse which ends with David asking “…your love, O Lord, endures forever-do not abandon the works of your hands.” Rick Warren could not use this part of ( verse 8) as it would not fit with his thesis. ( Verse 8) must be linked with (Verse 7).Again on (page 23) he stresses that even though some children are conceived in sin they are still planned by God. That cannot be. God does not plan sin or have a hand in it. God's will is for children to be born within the framework of marriage, but when they are not, God's love is toward them as it is towards all people. Does God know them before they are born? Yes. Does He knit them together in their mother's womb? Yes. Does He plan illegitimate children? NO. They are a result of sin.Rick Warren carries his theme on in (page 24). He states ‘God's motive for creating you was His love.' And yes, that statement is partially correct, however he then quotes “Long before he laid down earth's foundations, he had us in mind, had settled on us as the focus of his love.” ( Ephesians 1:4a Msg) as his proof text, a blatant misuse of scripture. Again he uses only half the verse and even then quotes it completely out of context.This verse is about God's sovereign election of those who believe, it is addressed to believers. The word ‘chose' in Greek is ‘eklegomai' which means ‘to pick out, to choose'. It is a definitive statement about God's elective grace concerning believers in Christ, and had it been put in its rightful context, we would see that that election is to be holy and blameless. It is not a verse as Rick Warren would lead us to believe about God choosing to create any and all human kind, because He loves us.On (page 25) Rick Warren quotes “I have carried you since you were born; I have taken care of you since your birth. Even when you are old, I will be the same. Even when your hair has turned gray, I will take care of you. I made you and will take care of you.”( Isaiah 46:3-4 NCV) but first he makes the comment, ‘There is perfect love in the fellowship of the Trinity, so God didn't need to create you. He wasn't lonely. But he wanted to make you in order to express His love'. The verse is then quoted, again completely out of context to what he is saying, this verse is not about God creating individual human beings to express His love, yet again he deliberately drops the first part of ( verse 3) which clearly states ” List en to me, O house of Jacob; all you who remain of the house of Israel you whom I upheld….” This is about Israel and Jacob. What's more Rick Warren leaves out the ‘a' in the references at the back of the book showing that the first part of the verse is not quoted, again a misrepresentation as most people would not look the actual verse up. If this was not a deliberate deception, why does Rick Warren use the ‘a' ‘b' system sometimes and not others? It must be to hide the fact that the verse is taken out of context. Why else would one do this?Day 3 Under the heading ‘Many People Are Driven By The Need For Approval'. Rick Warren writes, trying to earn others approval, including friends, parents and teachers. He then makes the following statement ‘I don't know all the keys to success, but one of the keys to failure is to try to please everyone. Being controlled by the opinions of others is a guaranteed way to miss God's purpose for your life. Jesus said “ No one can serve two masters .”' Although the thoughts Rick Warren is expressing may be good and sound, he has again taken scripture out of context to give foundation to his thoughts.This verse found in Matthew 6:24 is part of the passage known as the ‘Sermon on the Mount', and this particular verse is in the middle of Jesus speaking about storing up treasure in heaven, and not on earth, because where your treasure is there your heart will be also. Jesus also states “No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.” (verse 24)These verses have nothing to do with trying to win others approval. Yet again, Rick Warren takes the beginning of the verse, does not quote the whole verse, but in the notes at the back of the book makes it appear that he has given the reader the entire verse. In fact to put ( verse 24) into any sort of context at all, the least one must do, is to read ( verses 19-34). Since ( verse 25) starts with the word ‘ therefore ' it is related to the verses above and is a continuation of thought and speech by Jesus.To take the first part of ( verse 24) and relate it to trying to please others, trying to get others approval, shows incredibly poor exegesis.At the bottom of page 31 is a quote from ( Proverbs 13:7) in ‘The Message' version, which completely misses the meaning of the original text.‘The Message' reads “ A pretentious showy life is an empty life; a plain simple life is full of life .”The LITV reads “ There are those who act rich, yet have nothing at all; and those who act poor, yet have great wealth.”The NIV reads. “One man pretends to be rich, yet has nothing; another pretends to be poor, yet has great wealth..”As you can see, ‘The Message' leaves much to be desired with this verse.We have the same problem on day 1 (page 19), again the Message version is misleading in its translation of ( Matthew 16:25 ) . It reads, “Self-help is no help at all. Self-sacrifice is the way, my way, to finding yourself, your true self.” The ASV reads “For whosoever would save his life shall lose it: and whosoever shall lose his life for my sake shall find it.”While the NIV reads “For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it.”

DAY 5Under the subheading of ‘Life Is A Test' Rick Warren uses the illustration of King Hezekiah (page 43). He quotes “God withdrew from Hezekiah in order to test him and to see what was in his heart.” (2 Chronicles 32:31) The Hebrew word for ‘test' in this case is – (‘nasa' to test, to prove character or faithfulness) and in this case is a correct application of this verse. However, on the next page (page 44), still under the same subheading, Rick Warren states ‘the good news is that God wants us to pass these tests of life, so he never allows the tests you face to be greater than the grace he gives you to handle them;. He then quotes from the ‘Today's English Version', “God keeps his promise, and he will never allow you to be tested beyond your power to remain firm; at the time you are put to the test, he will give you the strength to endure it, and so provide you with a way out.” (1Corinthians 10:13 ) The problem here is that the word translated ‘test' in the Today's English Version is incorrect, the original Greek is “peirasmos” which literal means ‘temptation'. This verse is not about being tested by God as Hezekiah was in ( 2 Chronicles) , this passage from ( 1 Corinthians) is about being tempted to do evil or to sin. To link these two verses under the premise that God will sometimes test us, as Rick Warren does in this lesson, is completely wrong.There are two very different things happening in these two verses. One is testing and the other is tempting. God may be responsible if we are tested, as seen with Hezekiah, but he most certainly is not involved in any way if we are tempted. James 1:13-14 states “ when tempted, no one should say God is tempting me. For God cannot be tempted by evil , nor does he tempt anyone ; but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire , he is dragged away and enticed ”. NIV (emphasis added)To take this verse in ( 1 Corinthians 10:13) and place it in the context of testing that Rick Warren has is taking it out of its context in regard to being tempted. Further more, on Day 27 (page 209), Rick Warren uses this same verse in relation to tempting, under the heading ‘Defeating Temptation' but now he uses a different translation to make the verse say what he wants on this day. The translation he uses this time is the New Living Translation, because it uses the word temptation (which is correct) in place of the word tested . This is deliberate manipulation of scripture for his own ends.Rick Warren then states as a new sub heading, ‘Life Is A Trust'. He then says at the bottom of (page 44) ‘the first job God gave humans was to take care of Gods ‘stuff' on earth. This role has never been rescinded. It is a part of our purpose today. Everything we enjoy is to be treated as a trust that God has placed in our hands.. He then gives the reference ( 1 Corinthians 4:7b). Rick Warren is quite correct, mankind is responsible for looking after the earth, and the scripture he gives to back this up is correct ( Genesis 1:28 ). However the passage from ( 1 Corinthians 4:7b) which he uses to add weight to his thesis, has nothing to do with what Rick Warren is discussing in this lesson for Day 5. Again he has taken this verse out of context to give weight to his thoughts.This verse in ( 1 Corinthians) is part of a gentle caution or reprimand by Paul against pride and self conceit. This passage is directed to the members of the Corinthians Church who were boasting about under who they were converted and baptised, while Paul would rather have them consider that whatever difference there was between them was from God not from man, and that if they had received or enjoyed some benefit under their respective ministers, (apostles) then they had received it from God, therefore they should not be puffed up with pride. Actually it is a continuation of Paul's theme in ( chapter 1:11 -17) where some were saying “ I follow Paul”; another “I follow Apollos;” another, “I follow Cephas;” still another “I follow Christ”; (verse 12). The rest of this passage I will leave for you to read for yourself. (Verses 13-17)Paul is not talking about our responsibility to take care of God's “stuff” (page 44), Paul is dealing with what the Corinthians had received from God through the Apostles, their salvation, and their misplaced pride regarding that salvation.Day 7This day presents us with a particularly unbiblical teaching regarding salvation. Rick Warren's version of the gospel as stated on (page 58) is deeply troubling. Days 1 through 6 seem to build up to Day 7, when supposedly non believers reading the book are ready to invite Jesus into their hearts. He then gives them a prayer to pray to ‘receive salvation', here is that prayer “Jesus, I believe in you, and I receive you”. Then he adds ‘If you sincerely meant that prayer, congratulations! Welcome to the family of God!” I don't know about you but my heart grieves at this false gospel that is infact no gospel at all!Where is REPENTANCE? Jesus the greatest gospel preacher of all came preaching repentance. ( Matthew 4:17). Peter preached repentance . (Acts 2:38 ). Paul preached repentance. ( Acts 20:21 ).Where is CONFESSION OF SIN? (1 John 1:9)Where is THE CROSS? (1 Corinthians 2:2)Where is the CRUSIFIED SON OF GOD? (Acts 2:36 )Where is the BLOOD THAT CLENSES US FROM SIN? (1 Peter 1:18-19; Revelation 1:5)Where is THE RISEN SAVIOUR? (2 Timothy 2:8: Luke 24:6)Infact from day one these things do not get a mention in anyway that relates to what Christ has done for us.This is incredibly sad ‘seeker friendly deception'. I read a quote by James McDonald recently, it was his response to the “seeker friendly” movement, I really like his comment, ‘The seeker movement, subtitled: How to Fill Your Church with Tares.'There is more truth in that statement, than in Rick Warren's entire non gospel. And the thing that is even sadder than Rick Warren's non gospel, is that thousands of pastors and elders are presenting this book to their congregations as something of value.

Day 8One does not need to look too far to encounter problems with Rick Warren's exegesis yet again. Under the sub heading ‘Bringing Pleasure To God Is Called Worship', he gives four words only from ( John 4:23 ). He states (page 64) ‘the reason God made us with this desire is that he desires worshipers! Jesus said “ The father seeks worshipers ”. This is a misrepresentation of scripture, not only has he taken this completely out of context, but he has also mutilated the verse to suit his own ends. At the rear of the book in the end notes where the scripture references are listed there is no indication as to which version has been used. I wonder why? I have in my resources 23 different bible versions, including Greek Interlinear and Greek New Testaments from the original manuscripts, I checked them all and not one of them has ‘The father seeks worshipers' in any part of ( verse 23) or anywhere else..This passage is about worshiping God in spirit and in truth that is the kind of worshipper God is looking for. Rick Warren misrepresents the whole theme of this passage.On (page 65) he makes the statement ‘God loves all kinds of music because he invented it all – fast and slow, loud and soft, old and new. You probably don't like it all, but God does! If it is offered to God in spirit and in truth, it is an act of worship'.This is wrong and unbiblical. The reason most people like loud worship, rock music worship, and other forms of music that are offensive to God is to satisfy their own desire for gratification. God did not invent all kinds of music as Rick Warren suggests, music itself may well be a gift from God, but God did not invent Rock Music, or Rap Music, or Country Music these and others like them came out of mans own sensuality and sinfulness.In Hebrews 12:28-29 we read “therefore since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe. For God is a consuming fire and a jealous God.” NIV (emphasis mine) Verse 29, is a direct quote from ( Deuteronomy 4:24 ) where Moses warns the people about idolatry and we find he then says “ For the Lord your God is a consuming fire and a jealous God.” It is interesting that the writer to the Hebrews picks up this verse and drops it into the setting of worship as a warning to the Church. We had better understand what God deems acceptable worship. Any part of our worship that is done for our own enjoyment, our own pleasure or entertainment cannot be acceptable worship, as it is not focused on God, but on ourselves. Therefore it is not done in “ spirit and in truth.”Please keep those thoughts in mind as I quote several passages from Rick Warren's first book in the Purpose Driven ® series. In the Purpose Driven ® Church he encourages young Pastors to leave behind the old fashioned Church music in favour of Jazz or Rock or whatever turns your people on! He encourages churches to imitate the culture and “dress down” for church. How does that fit with “ Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will” (Romans 12:2). Or with “You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be friends of the world becomes an enemy of God.” ( James 4:4)Rick Warren also states in the Purpose Driven ® Church . “Figure out what mood you want the service to project, and then create it” (page 264) This sounds like manipulation to me, where is the Spirit lead worship?“We used classical, country, jazz, rock, reggae, easy listening, and even rap. The crowd never knew what was coming next. The result, we didn't please any body. Therefore we changed the music to one style, rock! We've often been referred to in the press as the church that likes to rock! We use the style that the majority of the people in our church like to listen to on the radio”. (Page 285)“We have attracted thousands more because of our music”. (Page 285) Interesting, I thought Jesus was the attraction.‘Saddleback now has a complete pop/rock orchestra'. (Page 290)“I sometimes wonder how many more people we might have reached in our early years if we'd had MIDI- quality music in our services”. (Page 290)There seems to be much greater emphasis on the type of music that the people want and like, rather than on worship in spirit and in truth. Rick Warren seems to say one thing in the Purpose Driven® Life and something completely different in the Purpose Driven® Church. On one hand he is saying worship should be in spirit and in truth, while on the other hand he advocates giving the people what they like. That is not God centered worship that is man centered. In ClosingI have taken only the first eight days of this book to analyse, as they are a good indication of the tone and problems throughout this book. These problems are not just in the first eight days, but are prevalent through out the book. I believe it would be futile to review the whole book, as anyone who really does have an open mind and truly loves God's Word, will see from what is presented here that there are serious problems with, not only this book, but with Rick Warren's theology and exegesis.I would not recommend this book. I know that there are those who may feel that this analysis is critical and unloving, that there are some good points in ‘The Purpose Driven ® Life . There will also be those who say we should not judge, and there are scriptures that talk about not judging others, I freely acknowledge that. However, those scriptures are not about judging in regard to doctrine, false teachers or false prophets. In fact, the New Testament talks twice as much about wrong doctrine as it does about wrong conduct. Why? Because wrong doctrine leads to wrong conduct. Paul actually names people who are responsible for wrong doctrine. 2 Timothy 2:17-18, 2 Timothy 4:14, 2 ;1 Timothy 1:20 and in Galatians 1:8-9 Paul says “But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we hav e already said, so I now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel other than what you have accepted, let him be eternally condemned”.The most unloving thing we could do is not to warn people about false teaching. Believers are commanded by Jesus himself to “ Stop judging by mere appearance, and make right judgement” (John 7:24 ). The bible very clearly teaches repeatedly that man is capable of being deceived. False teachers are not only ‘ deceiving ' others but are ‘ being deceived' ( 2 Timothy 3:13 ). God requires us to be discerning of doctrine and teaching. God desires that the church is protected from false teachers and their teachings (Acts 20:27 -31; 2 Timothy 3:13 ; 1 John 4:1-6) . When we use discernment and bring all teaching back to the Word of God, then it is not in actuality us who are judging, but the Word of God itself. It is and must always be God's plumb line from heaven. If it does not line up with the Word of God, then it is false teaching and we must avoid it.There are also those who would say “well it's OK some good might come out of it, someone might be touched”. This is an argument we use to make ourselves feel better, and so that we can avoid facing the absolute truth of God's Word.God does not and never will judge anything by the end result; he always judges things by the Truth and Light of His Word.God the Father is the one true God. Jeremiah 10:10; John 17:3 Jesus said “I am the way, the Truth and the Life”. John 14:6 The Holy Spirit is first and foremost the Spirit of Truth . 1 John 5:6Since all three persons of the Godhead are truth, how can God accept anything that is not truth? When to do so would be contrary to all that God is. The fact that people might be touched is not an indication of God's blessing, or even that something is of value, it is simply a fulfilling of God's promise that His Word will not return to Him empty. Isaiah 55:11.

Discernment and definitions are major points of importance in life and practice of the Church in the End time.God intends to finalise His task as to the building of a Church which corresponds to and answers to the purpose of the His own.To talk about purpose and motivational forces in terms decided upon by man, by a forceful leadership group or by ambitious leaders will eventually throw any church project off track.Ministering projected in terms of winning man for God by means of man’s means will only accomplish man’s dreams in this field of existence. Serving to meet man’s needs by man’s resources and according to man’s measure of success and satisfaction will only level with man’s desire. God’s purpose will eventually stand in opposition to man’s ambitions. The objectives of God will forcefully oppose and overcome man’s desires regarding success in any and every part of our common reality.The truly purpose driven life is a surrendered life, a life lived learning to rest in the Lord – never passive, actively seeking the Lord and His way of projecting Christ into men’s life.Many purpose driven individuals and communities define surrender to Christ as a “I am going to do all for Christ, work hard, spend everything, go anywhere.” But it is just another act of the “I”. “I am fully focused on my assignment, I am working with the one object to please the Lord” – but it is still only fleshly ambition. The one looks genuine and is in a way productive; the other is real, a ministry of the interior, something which holds great value before the Lord and therefore pass the test.To be purpose driven may either express a vital priestly ministry of the Lord to “thy neighbour” or a fatal misconception of the meaning of ministry expressed in large doses of religious perspiration. The one represents what God is after, the other will end up in a sobering crash landing at the best.Lars W.

I believe that every true Christian who realy seek the Lord and has read until this post, should have some doubts about this book. Let us not look to ourselves for answers, let us all go to the Lord for that answer. Remember as Paul write in Romans, that if you are not led by the Spirit you are not TRULY His child. You can think you are, live as if you are. But let us all yield ourselves to Him alone and seek the truth. I am convinced that this book is not written for the Glory of God and should be avoided and sould not be read by Christians.This is not to go out and punch those who already read the book, but out of love that every one can come to the truth of our Lord.Love in ChristJanus

Hi all,Just a few comments.joukos: You have quoted large amounts of second-hand sources that critiques the original book by taking its meaning out of context. But of course, you won't know; after all, you have stated clearly that "I have not read the book and have no intention of reading it. I found this persons thoughts on the book and would like to share it, he seems to have read it." How would you know it's a fair assessment if you are biased even before you read the book?lwpray: There is much gems in your comments, but the problem is, it does not interact with the specific book, Purpose-Driven Life, at all. Even a cursory look at HakkaMin's quotes show that whatever you think being "purpose-driven" means is not what was said in the book itself. I say Amen to your main points, but having read the book, I honestly do not know how you would apply these points to PDL, in particular.Janus: You said, "I believe that every true Christian who realy seek the Lord and has read until this post, should have some doubts about this book" (emphasis mine). From this, I get your not so subtle message: that those believers who endorsed this book (like myself), are either not a true Christian, or not someone who "really seek the Lord." Essentially, all those who disagree with you are either unbelievers or carnal Christians. I respectfully disagree.I wouldn't be this frustrated if this forum were called "book bashing" or "book infallible", because that's the impression I get sometimes.Some quotes from "The Purpose Driven Life" by Rick Warren. Sounds pretty solid to me.“This act of personal surrender (to God) is called many things: consecration, making Jesus your Lord, taking up your cross, dying to self, yielding to the Spirit. What matters is that you do it, not what you call it. God wants your life – all of it. Ninety-five percent is not enough.”“Surrendering is best demonstrated in obedience. You say, ‘yes, Lord’ to whatever He asks of you. To say ‘no, Lord’ is to speak a contradiction. You can’t call Jesus your Lord when you refuse to obey Him.”“God doesn’t owe you an explanation or reason for everything he asks you to do. Understanding can wait, but obedience can’t. Instant obedience will teach you more about God than a lifetime of Bible discussions. In fact, you will never understand some commands until you obey them first. Obedience unlocks understanding.”“Genuine surrender says, ‘Father, if this problem, pain, sickness, or circumstance is needed to fulfill your purpose and glory in my life or in another’s, please don’t take it away.’ This level of maturity does not come easy. In Jesus’ case, He agonized so much over God’s plan that He sweat drops of blood. Surrender is hard work. In our case, it is intense warfare against our self-centered nature.”“The most difficult area to surrender for many people is their money. Many have thought, ‘I want to live for God but I also want to earn money to live comfortably and retire someday.’ Retirement is not the goal of a surrendered life, because it competes with God for the primary attention of our lives.”“Sometimes it takes years, but eventually you discover that the greatest hindrance to God’s blessing in your life is not others, it is yourself – your self-will, stubborn pride, and personal ambition. You cannot fulfill God’s purposes for your life while focusing on your own plans.”

Well, Everyone is intitled to there own opinion.You have stated your's and that's okay.You have stated..."Let us not look to ourselves for answers, let us go to the Lord for answers. Let me ask you this, how does one go to the Lord for answers? Does God not speak through his word, through people, through this still little voice in side of you, in your heart or hearts. We must know when it's God, and you will know this because it will bear witness in your Spirit, that it's God speaking to you.Now, you also mentioned as Paul wrote in the book of Romans, well was not the book of Romans and every book that Paul wrote along with all the others, were they not written by inspiration of the Holy Spirit? Yes, they were!My opinion of the book "The Purpose Driven Life" it is a book that has been written by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, it is a book that has been written by an anoited man of God, that knows, and knew how to be still in the presence of the Lord, it was written by someone that was willing to yeal to the heart beat of God, to be used of God, for this day and age, for this generation.I happen to believe that -- again this is my own personal opinion, the book not only does it bring you up to another level in your intimate relationship with God, but it can also be used as a sence of counseling. It is the kind of Book like our most Holy Book, once you begin to read it, you can not put it down, it answers so many of our questions and brings us right back where we should be in the path of God, the straight path.For like Paul who was once known as Saul, and once walked in a crooked path, but Thank God, for his Mercy, Love, and Grace to appear to Saul on the road to Damascus, spoke to him took his eye sight, and then lead him to a street called "Straight", how awesome is that, that it would even line up with a book of one of the prophets, where it states, that he lead's the blind by ways that they knew not, and he makes every crooked path straight. AmenWITH ALL DUE RESPECT, NO OFFENSE MY OPINION ONLY, YOU ARE LOVED BY ME AND BY GOD.

The controversy of the Lord lies precisely within this specific realm of Heavenly purpose and fleshly ambition.The very mistake, the crucial omission made by motivational speakers and leadership committed to their own dreams regarding ministerial success is to be found precisely at this dividing line between the flesh and the spirit.The motivational speaker omits signalling a warning to the listener regarding the application of a purpose oriented message in the fleshly realm. Too many are therefore misled to a belief that man’s produce is pleasing to the Lord. Cain’s attitude led to judgment in the times of Noah. Our time, the end time, is of the same kind. Cain rules the church in general.This is one major reason for the controversy of the Lord with His Church.By the way, I am not into book bashing. . .Lars W.

joukos: You have quoted large amounts of second-hand sources that critiques the original book by taking its meaning out of context. But of course, you won't know; after all, you have stated clearly that "I have not read the book and have no intention of reading it. I found this persons thoughts on the book and would like to share it, he seems to have read it." How would you know it's a fair assessment if you are biased even before you read the book?Thanks Agent 001 for your comment.Could you please give me examples of the things that were taken out of context by this second hand source of mine. My comment still stands unless of course you can point out the obvious problems with the text. Here is another comment of mine. I don't particularly like the Hillsong music that is churned out to make a nice profit in the name of the Lord nor the cd;s that are there for instructional use in different aspects of life, also sold by Hillsong. I don't see a change in peoples lifes after being "indoctrinated" in Hillsong products, rather I see the opposite. Again, it's my comment, others might see it differently. Can we make a formula out of the word of God for success in evangelism i.e 40 days or like this other book by Bruce Wilkinson, The prayer of Jabez ? I did not read that one either nor have I got any intention of reading it. As for being a book basher, that is a comment worthy of being called biased and I haven't got a problem with that. I'm glad we have spirited discussions here and it's always invigorating to take part. From my point of view no malice was intended nor anything else that would harm any of the partakers in this thread. jouko

I must be sounding like a broken record by now.We will see in something we read exacly what we want, if we look for it. This is simple science...the same science that, when beginning with the assumptions of truth of the Bible, sees creation being the result of the work of a Creator...but when follows the assumptions of Darwin & Co, sees "creation" as the result of a "random act".I recently chatted with an individual, who stopped coming to this site, after he was constantly "confronted" by people on this site, with the sole intention, to establish themselves as right and this man as wrong (yes, I am aware that right now I am coming dangerously close to doing the same thing...I pray that you'll here the humility of what I am trying to say...as a man who is constantly being exposed as falible).I have been trying to get this man to listen to "10 Shekels ans a Shirt", in hope that God will show him the source of the hurt and confusion he's experiencing. There are things that this man is saying, that shows an ernest desire to serve God faithfully, being totally true to the Bible, yet also trying to ignore it's "inconsistancy's", rather than confronting them, and finding that they don't exist (this statement will take considerable explaining to those who don't have "ears to hear", if I offend you by it, please take it up with me privately, before bringing it out in public). He has totally rejected nearly every speaker on this site, due to the fact that he perceives the arrogance of some of the people here, as being the result of what these men of God have to say.He has some very "convincing proofs" of these opinions, even siting parts of the sermons preached. In the one recent discussion, he made a statment that made me weep. He said that he tried to listen to Keith Daniel's "Sermon on the Mount" message, and thought that Keith was "full of pride" for the manner in which he reads Matt 5-7. Anyone who has ever listened to Keith Daniel, will know that he is a man of intense humilty.Consider that, this happened due to a preconceived idea, being brought into the listening of him, that was based upon the people Daniel is associated with (us), at least in his own mind. Could we be doing the same with Warren? Could we be relying on some very persuasive propoganda (which I have personally read) and other people views (which I have also read), rather than the book itself (which I intend to read, if only to clarify my opinion).I have recently read a great deal of Masonic literature, from a christian website, only to find that none of it expresses Australian freemasonry, which is vastly different to that in the States. This has been done for the purpose of leading someone out of the lodge. This man is graciously lending me his masonic literature, to find a problem, regarding it's compatability with christianity. Alot of people have givening him books, refering to Albert Pike's Luciferian doctrines being in Morals and Dogma, not realising that there is no Scottish Rite in Australia, and that York rite doesn't acknowledge Pike. The point being, many of us are barking up trees that have nothing but shadows, when we should be looking for cats.If you're gonna say something, make sure you know what your talking about. If you don't, then pray that one of us will change, to conform to God's glory, whether me...or you. That's what I'll be doing.

JoukoYou wrote:I don't see a change in peoples lifes after being "indoctrinated" in Hillsong products, rather I see the opposite. Again, it's my comment, others might see it differently. I see it exactly as you see it. I don't want to critisize any of the people who make the music or say that they are not sincere, but are we trying to work for the Lord or is He doing the work through us?As Lars(lwpray) wrote:Too many are therefore misled to a belief that man’s produce is pleasing to the Lord. What do we see if we look at the ministry of our Lord, Jesus Christ? Did He engage into the things of this world and used their tools as a means to get what He want? Did He use all sorts of stuff that was attracting for the world to attract them to Him? NO!! He used only what He knew was from the Father and did not get near to this world or their means. He spoke the truth even though He knew it would offend others. But the offending was for their good - that they sould repent and return to the Lord. If any of this I wrote this far offended any, please, it was not intentional and I write this from a sincere heart. I want you to see what the Lord showed me. I myself should offcourse open my eyes and see if the Lord dont want to teach me something here, but let us all then pray for our eyes to be opened.Agent001 posted this:Janus: You said, "I believe that every true Christian who realy seek the Lord and has read until this post, should have some doubts about this book" (emphasis mine). From this, I get your not so subtle message: that those believers who endorsed this book (like myself), are either not a true Christian, or not someone who "really seek the Lord." Essentially, all those who disagree with you are either unbelievers or carnal Christians. I respectfully disagree.Whith the words true christians, I meant those of us who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and was born from above. I did not intend that all those otherwise was unbelievers or carnal. What I did say was that if read till here in this post, they should see there is some other sincere christians that does not agree with this book completely. Of course there is true things said in this book, but so in any other book! What I wanted to say is that all christians should have gone and make a small study of Rick Warren and where he comes from. There is adequit refferences and links in this forum. Let us then find out everyone for himself if something is of God or not, not condemning one another but praying for eachother - that our eyes may see His light and not those of our fellow men.Love in ChristJanus :-)

Lars (lwpray),I have high respect for your contribution in this forum and others. I share particularly the same interest as you in many other spiritual classics. My comment regarding "book-bashing" was (clearly, I hope) not directed towards you. That being said, Rick Warren is not a motivational speaker, nor does this particular book exemplify anything of "man's produce." So if what you have said concerning "man's produce" and "Cain" is referring to The Purpose-Driven Life, then I'm afraid you are attacking a straw man of your own imagination.I respect your opinion on this matter, but I'd first like to find out if we are really talking about the same book here.

My dear Agent,I am not a book basher, and I am not taking the comment as pointing at me.What I was trying to say is that I am not commenting the book per se but lifting up a principle which is commonly disregarded among us – the motivational speaker unwilling to take heed of the carnal twist.By the way, I took a look at Warren’s web site. The key word at the opening page was “Award-winning” rather than “Crucified”. It is not a particularly good start to win me for the product of his.Trying to make an impression is not impressive at all in the spiritual realm.Every blessing,Lars

Janus:Whith the words true christians, I meant those of us who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and was born from above. I did not intend that all those otherwise was unbelievers or carnal. What I did say was that if read till here in this post, they should see there is some other sincere christians that does not agree with this book completely. Of course there is true things said in this book, but so in any other book! What I wanted to say is that all christians should have gone and make a small study of Rick Warren and where he comes from. There is adequit refferences and links in this forum. The problem is, I saw little sincerity on the part of some Christians who renounce the book to accept the sincere opinion of other sincere Christians who find the book helpful! As some have already admitted, some could launch a bashing campaign on a book that they have not even read before, and have no intention to read. That is quite ironic, considering the fact that this forum is for the purpose of "book review".

Lars (lwpray),Let it be known that I have my own doubts on some of the marketing practices associated with the Purpose-Driven series; but nevertheless, in my opinion, the contents of the book are still solid, if not superb. One does not have to buy into their church growth and marketing strategies in order to fairly assess the book's substance, which I repeat, is the whole point of having this thread in the "book review" section. Sam

Why not follow through as to solidity on all levels.A book on how to follow the Lord being marketed according to principles which does not follow the mind of Christ.A contradiction. . . .Lars

Well, there are Bibles (and other spiritual classics) that are packaged and marketed by principles "that do not follow the mind of Christ"... (I have seen the NLT Living Water Bible sold by giving away bottles of water, is that not a marketing ploy?), does that nullify its contents as the Word of God?

I would probably be able to say something which sounds clever as an answer to your last point, dear Sam, but we are quickly moving into a cul de sac.Let’s leave this part of the thread as it is.Lars

Agent001 wrote. (I did change it a bit)As jouko has already admitted, jouko could launch a bashing campaign on a book that jouko has not even read before, and has no intention to read. That is quite ironic, considering the fact that this forum is for the purpose of "book review".I had a look at the first part of this thread and this is what it says;I would like to know what other thoughts people have on Rick Warren's book "A Purpose Driven Life". Does anyone feel this book is more of a psychological piece of junk or Gospel truth? From what I've read so far, it glorifies man's ways and programs over Christ and "The Faith"(the finished works of Christ). What are your thoughts?The EvangelistI have gathered other thoughts as per request and haven't put my thoughts into writing, as I stated I haven't read and won't read the book. I might still have to change my mind on that. Every time I watch the news I form an opinion. I'm sure that everyone of us has had an opinion about something but haven't really known the "truth" about that something since we weren't there. Looking at the comments of "some" of us they have changed over the few weeks this thread has been developing. Some comments have been fair some less fair but that is all they are, comments, and that is how we should take them. If we start becoming a bit "restless" maybe even a bit "agitated" we should ask ourselves this question, Am I defending this book because I perceive it to be of value to me and should be of value to others as well, maybe even as far as they should believe what I believe. A book, no matter what book, how good it's perceived to be will never do the same the Word of God does, set you free. I suppose the answer to this debate lies in this, will this book "lead" people to a living relationship with the Lord and not a "fleshy, feeling good kind of faith" that won't last ? Will people repent from their sins and receive salvation by grace and not by works ? joukoThings are wrong between the world and God. The world does not know Him. Its citizens do not love Him. They do not trust Him. They cannot stand before Him with acceptance. Their sins have separated them from God, and the guilt of sin is bearing them down to deeper sin and a dark eternal hell. But God has sent Jesus Christ to make this right....[Christ] has taken upon Himself man's sins, man's obligations, man's wrongs against God. He has met the issue, and He has paid the penalty.....This is the gospel of salvation through the blood of Jesus Christ. A. B. Simpson (1843-1919)The Spirit of God never heals [except] He wounds; and if those seeking Christ have not peace, it is because there is still in them some remnant of fancied goodness....There is a counterfeit Confession of Sin; let us beware of this counterfeit. We may be sure the sorrow is not deep if the sin be not subdued....God kills to make alive. He smites men's consciences to make them judge themselves. The first great step when a man desires to be saved is unqualified self-condemnation. Sin unconfessed is imputed; but sin confessed is blotted out by God. The sinner, coming in the name of Jesus, has a title to life; the ground of that title is the very name and justice of God. R. C. Chapman (1803-1902)Job 42:6 Wherefore I abhor myself, And repent in dust and ashes. Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that so there may come seasons of refreshing from the presence of the Lord;

I am really enjoying this Thread, Praise God!My Apologies, to all if I appear to be a tad -challening in my character, in regards to this book.Evangelist;You stated...(Am I defending this book because I perceive it to be of value to me and should be of value to others as well, maybe even as far as they should believe what I believe)Well, no not necessarily, but if the Lord chooses to use a book/tool to reach perhaps those that by no other way were able to be reached, then Praise God. Perhaps there are somepsychological strategies, along with the Word of God being used in this book. Well, don't we use some type of psychology in our day to day lives, along with the Truth, understanding that the truth surpass all. "WE CHRISTIAN'S UNDERSTAND THAT IT IS THE WORD OF GOD THAT SETS US FREE", and the word of God is used in this book. If a book is able to apprehend you both spiritual and psychologically, then it should be given a chance. There are times, when we can build some walls that are higher then the walls of Jericho, and nothing will bring these walls down, but something that could both apprehend spiritually and psychologically (with a shout - amen :-))In your previous paragraph you used the word Sin. Well what is Sin? Really! We know because the Word teaches us that we all fall short, meaning that we all miss the mark. Does the world really understand Sin? How can they if they don't understand Salvation, because of comdanation. I believe that the book makes you think, and to think is a good thing. It draws you back to the path.What i don't understand is why would someone want to bash a book that they have not giving themselves the opportunity or taken the time to read. Why put yourself through all of the Gymnastics of bashing it?God Bless You :-o

Hello Rafiki.Perhaps I didn't make it clear enough on my post that it wasn't Evangelist that answered but Evangelist that started the thread. He did not state...Am I defending this book......and so on, I did. As for psychological strategies, drawing back to the path, marketing practices, maybe that is some of that fancied goodness. If by me posting thoughts and opinions by other people about this book amounts to book bashing, then yes, I'm guilty. Let's keep on challenging. jouko

jouko:Forgive me for not expressing myself clearly enough in my previous posts. Please don't get me wrong--posting other people's opinion is quite legitimate to the discussion!What puzzles me, though, is how you could conclude that a book is not worth reading without actually reading it. You have stated that you have no intention to read the book at all; I would like to listen to your reasons why?Going back to the article you have quoted, I did read most of it, and it seems to me that the author was a little too eager to find fault.Finally, you said,A book, no matter what book, how good it's perceived to be will never do the same the Word of God does, set you free. I suppose the answer to this debate lies in this, will this book "lead" people to a living relationship with the Lord and not a "fleshy, feeling good kind of faith" that won't last ? Will people repent from their sins and receive salvation by grace and not by works ? I totally agree that there is nothing superior to the Word of God. Only his Word, his truth can set us free.As for the latter part of the quote, I have mentioned before that I have observed that this book had been a blessing to quite a few new believers that I personally know. I find it to be a good, readable book for helping new believers take the initial step of commitment to God. There were concerns about this book being "a psychological piece of junk" or that the book is simply a "make me feel good" kind of book. However, I do not find that in my own reading or my own experience, and I have yet to see a substantial argument based on the book's content.It is not my wish to "defend" this book--in terms of depth, it is certainly not comparable to many spiritual classics recommended in this forum; but neither do I find it to be a piece of trash, like others have either implied or asserted (although not much concrete support was given thus far). I am well aware that different people might (and probably will) hold different opinions. I just want to know the specific reasons (preferrably directly drawn from the book) for those who see it otherwise.I hope I have made myself clear. God bless!Sam

Thanks for the answer Sam and you're forgiven. ;-) No offense taken in the first place, a spirited discussion is good. I don't believe I ever concluded that the book wasn't worth reading only that I have no intention of reading it to which I later added that I might still have to change my mind. In an earlier post you wrote; Re: Thus far, I fail to see much interaction with the content of the book itself. I have yet to see a fair assessment of its content. Me again. What and how is a fair assessment ? Is it an assessment that concludes what I believe ? The articles I found didn't say it was all bad, in fact they say that he has much good in the book but..... I also believe that the articles I have read so far have done a quite in depth study of the book. It worries me when a doctrine comes into the church and is being implemented no matter what and people are being kicked out because they don't agree with the doctrine. It worries me when that doctrine uses outside sources to that doctrine to make it successful as we have in this case. Here are some examples of what the people behind this success boast about themselves:CMS is made up of a team of talented individuals whose dedication and expertise have earned them a solid reputation for creating results.Our strength lies in our ability to take an assignment from concept to completion. CMS has made a specialty of supporting direct and broker sales forces with programs, training, promotions and materials. Under Minnie's vision and direction, CMS has developed a number of proprietary products used by CMS clients in the everyday management of their businesses.A dynamic change agent, he is a proven leader in the development of marketing and sales organizations. His critical thinking ability has lead each of the companies he has been associated with to double-digit sales growth. His excellent oral and written communications skills and focused reports have consistently delivered successful execution of programs.Her extensive expertise in management, strategic business development, marketing, communications, sales, distribution, research, new product development, and creative development has helped clients optimize both long range and short term opportunities.At CMS, we view it as our mission to help our clients grow their businesses. We do this by working with each client identifying opportunities and developing innovative, creative and profitable services which assist them in the execution of effective marketing, sales and communications program.We believe in a true partnership between client and agency, one that fully integrates our services in a hands-on-style.Me again. From what I see they have succeeded. But is this a business ? Are business concepts necessary for a church ? If you dig deeper in connection with this, you'll find that some of the "business" associations should be of concern to you and every christian no matter how popular a book or church is. Pastor Rick’s 1995 book The Purpose Driven Church, is translated into over 25 languages and was voted one of the “100 Christian Books That Changed the 20th Century. More than 350,000 church leaders from 120 countries have been trained in Saddleback’s purpose-driven paradigm. Pastor Rick’s latest book, The Purpose Driven Life, has been the #1 or #2 bestseller on the New York Times bestseller list for almost two years and still selling about a million copies a month. It has been named “Book of the Year” twice- in both 2003 and 2004, and recognized as “the bestselling hardback non-fiction book in history.” It focuses on the truth that life is “not about you,” and shows how God can enable each of us to live for His purposes.Your opinion again:Now comes my very personal opinion: I think a lot of people, Christians included, simply cannot stand others being successful.Me again. What is success ? and how do you measure it in Christian life/perspective ?More from you:Thus, I find PDL to be a good stepping stone to guide them into other spiritual classics. It is a spiritual milk that leads to more solid food. (And I have found nothing in its content that causes me great concern--nor have I found reviews that adequately point out the problems inherent in its content. Most negative reviews, it seems to me, flow out of concerns about the bigger issue of "popular" Christianity--how it is marketed and hyped up by media). So my approach has always been more pastoral than critical--how do I encourage and guide these people to continue to grow in Christ?Me again:There are many reviews posted on this topic in this thread and I believe quite a few problems have been pointed out by the reviewers and quite a few good points as well.Yours:joukos: You have quoted large amounts of second-hand sources that critiques the original book by taking its meaning out of context. But of course, you won't know; after all, you have stated clearly that "I have not read the book and have no intention of reading it. I found this persons thoughts on the book and would like to share it, he seems to have read it." How would you know it's a fair assessment if you are biased even before you read the book?Me:Could you be specific about what meanings where taken out of context ? I'm going on some leave for a few weeks and I believe a friend of mine has the book. If possible I'll read it so at least I can see the specifics that were taken out of context in the reviews posted whom you hopefully will post.You're invited to our afternoon barbeque tomorrow and please bring your friends.Thanks for answering and God bless you.jouko :-)

jouko:jouko said:From what I see they have succeeded. But is this a business ? Are business concepts necessary for a church ? If you dig deeper in connection with this, you'll find that some of the "business" associations should be of concern to you and every christian no matter how popular a book or church is. This brings us to quite another controversial theological discussion, which I was trying to avoid by suggesting that we discuss the contents of the book. Not everything associated with "business" and "management" is evil. Nevertheless, I am hoping to focus the discussion on the book's content and substance.The "guilt by association" process often leads people to make conclusions well before they have even read the book itself. That Rick Warren uses insights from business management to run his church has nothing to do with his book on Christian life -- the book PDL does not presuppose an agreement on his church model. That Rick Warren encourages the use of contemporary music in worship services also has nothing to do with his book on Christian life -- the book PDL does not discuss this topic at all. There were also charges about a "make me feel good" message, but that is also absent in the book, and as far as I could tell, Warren had consistently insisted the need for absolute surrender and obedience to God throughout PDL. These charges, I presume, were also made on the basis of "guilt by association". My point is, there is a place for discussions of all these: business practices, worship styles, church growth models, etc. But I am only interested at the moment, in hearing how others interact with the message of the book itself. Agent001 said:Thus, I find PDL to be a good stepping stone to guide them into other spiritual classics. It is a spiritual milk that leads to more solid food. (And I have found nothing in its content that causes me great concern--nor have I found reviews that adequately point out the problems inherent in its content. Most negative reviews, it seems to me, flow out of concerns about the bigger issue of "popular" Christianity--how it is marketed and hyped up by media). So my approach has always been more pastoral than critical--how do I encourage and guide these people to continue to grow in Christ?(I stand by my comments here)joukos responded:There are many reviews posted on this topic in this thread and I believe quite a few problems have been pointed out by the reviewers and quite a few good points as well.I have yet to see convincing arguments based on the contents of the book. Perhaps you could highlight the few good points that you find convincing?--------The author of the article you have quoted was a little to eager to find fault, for instance:a. Day 5, 1 Cor. 10:13The author acknowledged that the main point Rick Warren was trying to make was right, but still wanted to nit-pick on Warren's biblical quotation, especially that of 1 Cor. 10:13, claiming that his inconsistent use of the verse here and in Day 27 is "deliberate manipulation of scripture for his own ends." Pretty strong accusation here.The author made a big fuss about peirasmos in 1 Cor. 10:13. He claims that it should have been translated "temptation," not "test." But he was ignoring the the fact that peirasmos can refer to both. That is why The Message translates the verse, "No test or temptation that comes your way..." Similarly, the NET Bible (a relatively literal translation) has "No trial has overtaken you that is not faced by others..." Had he done his homework, it should not be difficult for the author to find commentaries that prefer a translation other than "temptation". My understanding is that both "test" and "temptation" are legitimate possibilities for peirasmos in this particular verse. Perhaps the author was a little too eager to crucify Warren concerning "deliberate manipulation of scripture for his own ends"?b. Day 5, 1 Cor 4:7bAgain, the author is in agreement with the point of Rick Warren, but he still wants to prove that Warren manipulates scripture. Indeed, he spent some much time challenging a single biblical reference in parenthesis... perhaps a little too eager to find fault?The author claims that Warren "has taken this verse out of context to give weight to his thoughts." Well, yes, the context of the verse in question is not directly dealing with human responsibility to take care of the gifts that God has given us on earth. But perhaps that is why Warren emphasised primarily on Genesis 1:28 (which the author acknowledged but still want to find fault in the details).A case can even be made that Paul in his rhetorical question in 1 Cor. 4:7b, he was appealing to a universally-acknowledged principle to make his point. In that case, the reference by Warren would be warranted.In any case, both issues are minor, and could hardly be considered "deliberate manipulations of scripture".I shall stop here.Sam

I said it once and I'll say it once more...YES I HAVE READ IT! The majority might be for it, but don't you know that the majority isn't always right? Does Caleb and Joshua ring a Bell?(If you wanna talk about Joshua) PDL is a whole lotta Garbage...Trash...Junk...Bologna! But its hard for you to see it(the truth) as it really is when you're raised in such a decieved environment, huh? You'll never know what it is to "live by faith" when you are not in THE FAITH, Christ is your life, and you are dead to self daily. Had you been, you would know that deliverance from temptaion and bondage doesn't come by faith in some 12-step program so-to speak --> (PDL Chapter 27). How foolish can you be? The apostle Paul, who wrote most of the New Testament, was trying to get the 'then Church' to come to the end of self by Faith in what Christ had done at Calvary. Warren is promoting self by none other than what the majority of Modern Churches are teaching - Psychology: which can basically be put in the words "trusting or leaning on the arm of the FLESH. The just shall live by _ _ _ _ _? Yes, Faith! Paul mentions it in Romans, Galatians, and Hebrews (I believe he was the writer of Hebrews, but that's another topic altogether), and Habukkuk says it in the Old Testament. Faith in who and what? NOT you nor I nor Warren but in Christ, and according to Paul, Christ and Him Crucified. Let me say it one more time so you don't miss it okay? YES I HAVE READ THAT TRASHY POOR PITIFUL EXCUSE FOR A GODLY BOOK. No it isn't helping you nor anybody who reads it. It's turning you from the Faith (If you were ever in the Faith), and it's destroying the body of Christ with heretical Humanistic teaching....NOT 100% Biblical truth. It's none other than a watered down gospel...a soft pedaled gospel...a tiny toe tip toeing through the tulips gospel! But if you want it, I nor anybody can stop you. Just don't say you've never been warned! Straight from an old time pentecostal,The Evangelist.P.S. If younger Christians want Spiritual milk, tell them to get into their Bibles, and to seek the Lord them selves. The Holy Spirit still speaks to people today...and it isn't a man that gives the increase...it's God. (I COR.3:16) :-)

PDL - - > Psychological Driven Life

Quote:Please respect the fact that there are genuine, devoted Christians who hold different opinions on this book. What really "says it all" is ultimately our attitude and love (or lack of) towards our fellow Christians.Rafiki;And futhermore, let's keep the name of the (?) where saints gather together in worship and in prayer OUT of your mouth, amen. "Remember" that regardless of our opinion and YES, you are entitled to your own opinion, the word teaches us that where two or more gather together in his name, he is there.Since, everyone seams to have there own opinion, Why don't we try something new, let's read the book together. When voicing your comments about a particular (insight) let's back it up! Tell me, exactly what did he write or share that made you to believe it's a pieces of junk, which is not!!! AmenAs you all may know, I happen to believe that it's a great book.

Rafiki? Isn't your name taken from an witch/enchanting monkey from Lion King? And, The House of the Lord is not on safe ground. That's the Truth. With false teachers(like Warren and many others)and doctrines coming into it greater than ever before. (1 Tim.4:1,2,16) Let me remind you first of all by saying that the object of this whole relationship between an individual and God isn't about Me, Myself, and I. Oh yes, It is about one person. It's all about Jesus. Next, I, nor any other man or woman of God should respect anything or anybody that neglects the Cross of Christ. That's where The Faith is based around. And most of all, That's where we found the precious Master. And like I said before, if you, I, or anybody isn't dying daily as the Apostle Paul mentions(1Cor. 15:31), then it does become about us. Amen! In Warren’s gospel, it's really quite simple to say no mention is made of sin, repentance, or even the Cross. His message is this: Find God and you will find yourself (purpose),i.e., Secular Humanism. What did Jesus say? "...He that findeth his life shall lose it..." And, I'll let you read on...(Matt.10:38-39)Amen! An let me tell you now so you don't ask again...We ain't gonna read it together. However, I will read it for you. Let's start with page 9. "This is more than a book...". No it isn't more than a book. It is a book. The Word of God is more than just a book, and PDL is NOT the word of God!Amen! "...a guide to a 40-day spiritual journey." Where do you find that in scripture where men of God led others on any spiritual journey let alone a through a man made book who in reality twists scripture to fit his ideas? The HOLY SPIRIT led Christ on a 40-day fast...but that was the Holy Spirit. Warren isn't God. He shouldn't try to point anybody anywhere but to the Cross. God had ministered to others on different occasions as Warren wrote on page ten, but it wasn't because they read his book or any other MAN-inspired book. If I or you wanna be changed by God, and wanna know His will for our lives, get down on your knees and hear from Him, not some stupid book that claims it'll change you. NOT Warren! Funny, that's just the first couple of pages! My conclusion for now is if you wanna learn from a man - Learn from Jesus. Amen! There are four books at the beginning of the New Testament you can learn from a lot more than you'll ever learn from Warren. Amen! Keep posting 'em, and I'll keep providing 'em. God Bless. An old time Pentecostal,The Evangelist. P.S. :-) What really "says it all" is ultimately our attitude and love (or lack of) towards our fellow Christians.Nope, brother or sister or what ever you are, I have to disagree with you again, real love is telling the truth to those you love, even if it hurts. True love is trying to spare somebody you love from danger. Ezekiel 3:20-21. :-) Sometimes we as fellow christians see it as lovelessness when others confront us. In Paul's letters he really confrunted the church members, even though some of them believed and had different opinions than he did. (Special Thanks To Janice)

A gentle answer turns away wrath, but harsh words stir up anger. Pro.15:1Nope, brother or sister or what ever you areAs a sister in Christ, I do not appreciate this kind of talk to anyone.May the words of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart be pleasing to you, O LORD...Ps. 19:14In His perfect love, ChaninEdit: we do such a disservice to the Lord when we use this kind of tone or harsh wording. We are to be examples of Him. It reminds me of my own self when I have fallen short and let my anger and my 'right to be right' get the best of me. :-o

Chanin, thanks...but it's okMany may not understand...what is happening right now but God is in this, he is -- he really is, Amen.The only reason why i chose the name rafiki as my nick name was because at the time i was thinking about my son, and how we had watched this movie the Lion King. The name rafiki c ame into mind, and so I typed it, that's all. I guess I should have been more careful as to not grieve anyone's spirit.Quote:An let me tell you now so you don't ask again...We ain't gonna read it together. However, I will read it for you. Let's start with page 9. Ooouch what ever this mean.Listen everyone, I just desired to learn and to grown along with everyone else. I thought that I could freely express myself and just be me and be transparent, and have a respectful discussion/debate about this book, which is a very good book. However I do, must, and will agree with my brethern, it doesn't nor will it ever take the place of the WORD OF GOD, WHICH IS SHARPER THEN ANYTWO EDGED SWORD.P.S. I will not disguise myself and change my name into all these different alias, when I speak you will know that it is me and that it is God speaking through me.No offense taken, he who has an ear let him hear and I do, Love You Much.

Here's some material you might wanna try reading if you don't think what I'm saying is enough! The Evangelisthttp://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/exposes/warren/scripture.htmhttp://www.svchapel.org/Resources/Articles/read_articles.asp?id=1http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1506ch3.htmlhttp://www.fundamentalbiblechurch.org/Foundation/fbcsdlbk.htmhttp://ww2.forwilliam.org:8004/forum/archive/index.php/t-516.htmlYou need more, let me know! Oh, and I'm sorry to offend you, I didn't know who or like I said what(gender)I am adressing. God Bless! :-)

(1) http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/exposes/warren/scripture.htm(2) http://www.svchapel.org/Resources/Articles/read_articles.asp?id=1(3) http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1506ch3.html(4) http://www.fundamentalbiblechurch.org/Foundation/fbcsdlbk.htm(5) http://ww2.forwilliam.org:8004/forum/archive/index.php/t-516.html Quick comments concerning these five links:(5) is a dead link.(3) and (4) are directed generally towards the philosophy behind Purpose-Driven Church, not specifically towards the book Purpose-Driven Life and are therefore beyond the scope of this book review forum.The author of (1) made it clear that it is really an adaptation of the article in (2).In summary: The only article with some substance in relation to the topic at hand is (2), an article by "Gary E. Gilley, Pastor-Teacher". The only substantive argument I find made by this author is his objection to the use of some translations (e.g. The Message), of which the author is clearly biased against. There is more critique of The Message than anything else in this article.Not too convincing overall.

Try this and take your pick. But I said in one post, if you been raised in it you can't see how its wrong. You need to ask the Holy Spirit to open your eyes...oh, and when you actually begin to study your bible, that helps. You know, the problem isn't just the book. Let's address a little bit more than the book, huh? You're right, those sights discuss more than just the book...but it's all part of the same Modern Day Apostacy. It's MANS WAYS, TRADITIONS, & PHILOSOPHIES (in a way Gnosticism) that people are uplifting...it's the messages that he and others are teaching, whether in regards to PDL or PDC or whatever book it is, it's all bologna and Warren and others who both embrace and teach this jargon should be thrown out of the pulpit by their ear. Maybe I am in one sense harsh, but I don't think Christians should tippy-toe around False Doctrine. They should expose it and the teachers/promoters of it for who and what they really are.(Phil.3:17) Did not Paul not say (and somebody wants to say I'm harsh) Beware of Dogs (Philippians 3:2) And the very word that the Apostle used was the worst slur of the word... ;-) Verse 3 he says, "...have no confidence in the flesh." Now an "eight-step recovery process" isn't any different than what Alcoholic Anonymous (A.A.)does. But in chapter 27, he makes reference to it and says in the past 10 years over 5,000 have been set free. Maybe they have, maybe they haven't, but it's according to a man's standards of deliverance. Where does the Word say to find deliverance in an eight-step process or any other process? NO WHERE! It's only through the Cross of Christ, and do you know what? That's where MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS have found freedom from sin, temptation, and bondage, and It was through the power of the Cross! THERE"S DELIVERANCE IN THE CROSS OF CHRIST!!! It's what we Christians have known it to be called from the very Word of God! THE FAITH!!! He (Warren) talks about being accountable to one another on the bottom of page 212, and uses James 5:16. Well it's good because we all need to be held accountable of things we do...BUT JAMES WAS NOT TALKING ABOUT IT BEING A WAY TO DEFEAT TEMPTATION! He was refering to being quick to admit a fault if such be the case. Yet the context of the scripture is "The Prayer of Faith(in regards to the sick)". TWISTING SCRIPTURES IS HE? Let me give it to you this way. When you're dead...the devil can't defeat you. He can't harm you. You're dead already! The reason for so many defeated Christians isn't because they can't overcome bondage to sin, but that Christ has ALREADY defeated it at the Cross (Col.2:14-15)and they don't know it! And Rick Warren isn't teaching this! Every Christian man & Woman, boy & girl who needs deliverance from besetting sins need to, by faith in Christ and what He's ALREADY done at the Cross, understand and except that they nor anybody else has the power to deliver them from sin...not even a stupid book (s.a. PDL). But Christ and Him crucified ONLY! Amen. And they need to be dead to self. THEY NEED TO BE DEAD TO SELF AND BURIED WITH CHRIST AND RESURRECTED IN NEWNESS OF LIFE THROUGH THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT! (We call it the ressurected life)Gal.2:20 Why do you think Paul spent so long trying to get this Gospel to sink into the hearts of those who were in the Church back then??? It wasn't the message of "seeker-sensitivity", "Cell-Groups", or any of this other Bologna they're teaching in this Modern Day Church world...But the teaching of the New Covenant which cannot be taught by me nor anybody, unless The Holy Spirit has given the revelation to whomever the recipient of this powerful bondage breaking message. That's the message the Church has left. That's the message that needs to be brought back! That's not the message Warren is embracing! Christ and Him Crucified alone will change lives and set captives free. (1 Cor. 1:17-18)(Matt. 16:24-25)(Phil. 3:7-11) If you would like to discuss this more feel free!http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/criwarren.htmlAn old-fashion Pentecostal,The Evangelist :-) ;-)

Hi Giancarlo, I have to agree with Sam on this.But,please tell us after you've read it why you do think it's trash,that would be more helpful :-)

How many times have I already stated it: YES I HAVE READ IT!!! But,please tell us after you've read it why you do think it's trash,that would be more helpful Why don't you tell me "after you've read" the rest of the posts. That does help Delboy. ;-) The Evangelist.P.S. Try reading A.W. Pinks article on "Another Gospel" It reminds me a lot of PDL. :-) On the other hand...maybe you should try reading your Bible. ;-)

theevangelist:The only two substantial arguments put forth that I could discern are - (1) Warren made reference to Alcoholic Anonymous and also suggested an "8-step recovery process"; (2) Warren "twisted scripture" when he cited James 5:16.In my opinion, these two points are minute details within the book which do not do justice to the overall value of the book.(1) I do not find the notion of following certain steps for recovery necessarily incompatible with scriptural principles. I acknowledge it is a hotly debated issue among Christians. Moreover, it is more important to evaluate whether the principles behind the steps than making a universal rejection.(2) James 5:16 refers to confession of sins and praying for healing in a community setting. The context has a strong communal element to it: v. 14 the elders of the faith community prays for the sick; vv. 19-20 restoration of believers who have gone astray. I think an extended application could be small groups whereby one is accountable to one another, so that healing and other spiritual support could take place.Your so-called context "The Prayer of Faith" is taken from the NIV heading, which I should remind you, is not part of the inspired text. It is, to use your famous expression, MAN'S TRADITION, who put it in there. *wink* :-P

Your so-called context "The Prayer of Faith" is taken from the NIV heading, which I should remind you, is not part of the inspired text. It is, to use your famous expression, MAN'S TRADITION, who put it in there. *wink* That's funny because I only use King James *wink wink* You're theological brain (through pride) can drag you soul to hell faster than anything drinking or any other sin can. Lose the haughty spirit. And either way...He or you or any other preacher preach deliverance any other way but throught the Cross...you're in err. *wink wink*The Evangelist

You're theological brain (through pride) can drag you soul to hell faster than anything drinking or any other sin can. Lose the haughty spirit. And either way...He or you or any other preacher preach deliverance any other way but throught the Cross...you're in err. *wink wink*Gee, dude, Thats harsh. :-?

Lose the haughty spirit.Perhaps you might want to re-read some of your recent post's in this regard brother. Careful...

Ha ha, funny Mr. Moderator Crsschk, nah, but yall are right(about some of my comments). I'll try to keep a better composure.(lol) God BlessThe Evangelist

The Evangelist states:Interest: Preaching Christ and Him Crucified!Comment:Preaching is done with ones whole life. You preach what you are.A quote;The life of the Vine and the branch is so completely identical, that the manifestation of the life must be identical too.A. Murray.The Evangelist does need to consider and reflect on conduct and appearance also regarding behaviour in these threads. Your words do preach, but not the Cross of ChristLars W.Minor Moderator

Hmm...well thanks for that bit of advice. If I can learn from it and God is gonna to change that part of my life I'm willing to allow him to do so. Your words do preach, but not the Cross of ChristI'm not justifying anything I say or do...however, there are things I say...maybe they mean one thing to me to me and another to you. The way I present them, mean one thing to me and another to you. Take that into consideration...and kinda what you said about the Jimmy Swaggart Intercession threads, with the exception of what I said to Agent001, I appologize for my remark...This isn't the place to discuss you or I or anything but PDL. ;-)

Dear Evangelist,Thank you for responding.We all have a lot to learn regarding human behaviour and reactions.We all have a lot to learn about the Cross and its work.I am quite fond of straight talking - and I therefore recognize fervour and outrightness as a plus in a ministry profile.Blessings,Lars

21"I can't stand your religious meetings.I'm fed up with your conferences and conventions.22I want nothing to do with your religion projects,your pretentious slogans and goals.I'm sick of your fund-raising schemes,your public relations and image making.23I've had all I can take of your noisy ego-music.When was the last time you sang to me?24Do you know what I want?I want justice--oceans of it.I want fairness--rivers of it.That's what I want. That's all I want.From The Message.jouko here and I've sort of read through the book as I finally got hold of it through a friend. Sort of means, I got tired of reading this humanistic book that says that is all about God but promotes self often enough.I do not find that 40 days is a significant time spritually in the Bible and that whenever God wanted to prepare someone it took 40 days.Real spiritual growth is never an isolated, individualistic pursuit. Really ???? Where do I find this in the Scriptures ? Ravenhill and his comments on travailing and praying comes to mind. Matt 6:6 speaks about an inner chamber. In that inner chamber you will not be able to pretend, the drawback of course is that nobody but God will know and it might take longer or less than the 40 days prescribed.Then you have the promotion of material that can be bought in conjunction with this book.What happens if I break the covenant I sign with Rick ? and why would I even want to sign a covenant with him ? Why do I need to sign a covenant if I join Saddleback ?Does finding yourself, your true self sound Biblical ? compared to lose your life (for the Lord's sake)to find true life ?Could you please check out the statement: Above and below, visible and invisible. What does it mean to bring out the best in us ?I thought the idea was for me to die and Him to increase.About DNA and designer purpose. Lenin, Stalin, Mao etc on page 23.I would like for you to check out these persons in whatever way possible.Bertrand RussellAnais NinBernie SiegelHenry David ThoreauBro LawrenceMother TheresaAldous HuxleyHenri NouwenWould you use them in conjunction with teaching the Word of God ?Would you use entire verses and in context to teach or would you use parts of verses to get it to fit in your teaching ?What is the "power of focusing" ? Jesus and the fork on page 57 ? Is that for real or a joke ? Compare to page 282.How about teaching the whole of John 3 ?This is about the stage where I started losing interest so I mainly skimmed the text.Nothing about the blood of Jesus nor true repentance for your sins. Hell's Best Kept Secret comes to mind. Sacred pathway, 9 ways to God, personalities, he is in everything, eastern mysticism, biblical 8 step recovery etc.A very good advice is to memorise scripture but from which scripture ?Some of my concerns and criticism and below some more from other people.http://www.erwm.com/Church%20Growth%20Movement.htmWith blessings and sorry to drag this up again.jouko

Amen Jouko! I totally agree with you!The Evangelist

Just realised this was actually an old response here (from Jouko) but as it often seems around here at times, threads cut across each other on similar ... themes.This morning couldn't get away from these two words;"smooth things"Isa 30:10