Motives behind Conditional/Eternal Security

you our right on old joe. If you believe you can lose your salvation because you continue in unrepentant sin oe you do some kind of awful sin than you our now going by the basis that it is your works that justifies you and not Christ himself who is the justifier of the wicked once and for all. Our works are like filthy rags compared to Gods. We must be regenerated by the holy spirit in which we become a new creature and our implanted new desires and a new purpose within, Gods spirit dwells. God will finish the good work in us. This was the whole purpose of being born again, so that this time we wouldn't fall away and that God would win the battle, that is because it is God that is willing all of this and not us and that is why we finish and perservere because he is doing the work in us. You may say that we still have the choice of leaving the faith or we might not repent after we sin after being a born again believer but that contradicts the new birth and God living in us, is it just you living or is God their. God saves us and changes us and lives in us and he will finish because he promises it. The problem is that people way misinterpret the scriptures and believe that we truly have a part in our salvation. It is god himself through his spirit that brings conviction, brings saving faith, brings our repentance and keeps us from falling, he who is born of God overcomes the world. Brother Joe i do not consider myself any certain denomination or i do not label myself anything at all, i am just a christian who God has revealed these truths to me because i seeked for the answers. I want the truth, but truth only comes from the giver himself and through the scriptures his whole purpose of bringing in this godly kingdom was for his glory and honor which he will uphold with his saved ones and not let anyone pluck us out and not even us. I commend you old joe for this writing because it is true of the nature of the believer.

The Heavenly Father who adopts and regenerates souls is not a bad father. He certainly chastens all His sons, and knows how to do so in order that each returns again. It follows that the regenerate person, being predestinated unto the adoption of sons from before the foundation of the world (Eph.1:3-6), and being chastened as a son in this present life (Heb.12:5-11), shall never pass out of sonship but shall be preserved in faith and renewed in the lifestyle of a son so long as he lives.

We are sons of God not only in the present, but from the eternal adoption. And what we are from eternity, we shall be to eternity.

From there all that needs to be asked is: What motivates you to perseverance in practical holiness? Potential loss of salvation, or the glory of God?

That is a good question. Another thought to ponder... we cannot please God in any way, unless we are trusting the promises of God as we come to Him. For example... The Psalmist writes, "I had fainted, unless I had believed to see the goodness of the LORD in the land of the living." (Psa 27:13) We persevere and do not faint because God has promised that we will see the goodness of the LORD. God has given us a new heart of Faith that lives forever. Hallelujah! "The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live forever." (Psa 22:26) The Lord gave me a verse in Psalm 23 a few years ago to comfort me when I was fearing that I might lose my salvation and perish in the end. "Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD forever." (Psa 23:6) Oh, that word "surely" became a precious promise to my weary soul in those dark days of despair. Another promise that the Lord gave me was in 1 John 5.

"We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not." (1Jn 5:18)

Do we really believe this scripture? It says that he "keepeth himself" as a direct effect of being "begotten of God"

If we refuse to trust the promises of God, all our efforts to persevere will become man-centered and man-glorifying. For whatsoever is not of Faith is sin and without Faith it is impossible to please God.

Every work of Faith, labor of love, and patience of hope is wrought in us by the promises that Salvation is of the LORD and the LORD is our Salvation.

The following is a clip from an article I wrote,

"
The Difference in Motivation
Man-centered evangelism tells men to repent so that they can escape hell. It tells men that "you must repent in order for God to save you from Hell." The error of man centered evangelism is not only in doctrine, but in motivation. Man centered evangelism is primarily motivated by a horror that men are going to hell. This horror is not wrong. However, it should not be the primary horror.

God-centered evangelism is motivated by a horror that men are crucifying Jesus with their hearts and not giving God the love and adoration that He is worthy of. God-centered evangelism is motivated to preach because the gospel of Jesus Christ is worthy to be magnified and exalted among all nations. God-centered evangelism is motivated by a consuming desire to please God by declaring all of God's wonderful works among the heathen."

[url=http://abrahamjuliot.blogspot.com/2008/02/god-centered-evangelism-and-man.html]Source[/url]

Blessings to the glory of God! -Abraham

EDIT: sentence structure

First we deal with conditional security which has as a key motivation the preservation of self.

Wow, that's news to me because that's not true in my life. I really think that there's a misunderstanding (Or maybe it's on purpose? It seems like anything said by those who don't believe in OSAS gets twisted.) going on between the two parties.

I don't believe you can just make a blanket statement when it comes to things like this. How do you know the motives behind everyone's beliefs and actions?

Eternal security on the other hand can only have the glory of God as the motive for perseverance.

Again how do you know this is true for all people in all circumstances?

HomeFree89, has a good point. These motivations being mentioned here are biased opinion. This is the same reason that spurred George Whitefield to rebuke John Wesley in that letter he wrote. The most beneficial lesson I have learned when dealing with controversial doctrines, such as this, is to consider, as far as I am able, the entire argument being presented to me. There will always be those who take advantage of Christian doctrine for their own selfish desires, however, both "conditional" and "unconditional" salvation suffer from godly and ungodly motivations. Moreover, the motivation for "preservation of self" may be improperly applied to both of these "salvations".
As for the example of Whitefield to Wesley, I would mention, the reason that "unconditional election" takes away from the Christian heart the most profitable and pure fear of the Lord. If we have no danger of being cast in to hell then the words of Jesus are vain in our ears: "fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

We are sons of God not only in the present, but from the eternal adoption. And what we are from eternity, we shall be to eternity.

Not to mention, "conditional security" does not necessarily contradict "eternal security". No one argues with the doctrine of election and predestination. Hence the focus is on the format of God's election -- why did the impartial judge save a few and condemn the most? Are we to conclude that God is most pleased to predetermine "the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth" to eternally condemn the many unto everlasting fire? Is God therefore more pleased with wrath than mercy? Hard determinism would lead us to conclude that God is more pleased with the display of his furious anger against unborn creatures, whom have done neither good nor evil (please, do not confuse this with an emotional appeal, I am merely relating what I have understood from the Scriptures), for it far exceeds his pardoning of sins. Shall we therefore conclude that God loves the elect more than he loves righteousness? For it is written that God loves the righteous and hates the wicked and that the righteous shall inherit eternal life and the wicked the recompense of destruction; however, such sentiments of God's nature (ie. loving righteousness) are arbitrary if God has judged all men prior to any good or evil.

I recently read some of the works of John Fletcher, who had some interesting criticisms concerning these things: "THE FICTITIOUS AND GENUINE CREED" and another article "An Equal Check To Pharisaism And Antinomianism"
(from the Wesley Center for Applied Theology: http://wesley.nnu.edu/john_fletcher/index.htm).

You may say that we still have the choice of leaving the faith or we might not repent after we sin after being a born again believer but that contradicts the new birth and God living in us, is it just you living or is God their. God saves us and changes us and lives in us and he will finish because he promises it. The problem is that people way misinterpret the scriptures and believe that we truly have a part in our salvation. It is god himself through his spirit that brings conviction, brings saving faith, brings our repentance and keeps us from falling, he who is born of God overcomes the world.

[b]Philippians 2
12.[/b] So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
[b]13.[/b] for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

You see, the monergism of God's sovereign will is that he is working "in you". However, the synergism is that you are commanded to "work out your salvation". At no time is there ever given place for man to work by his own self (which is the root of sin) and neither is it said that God will work it out for him; rather we read that God has given the free gift of salvation to man and that his grace is sufficient for him; therefore, God has designed for both man and Creator to cooperate together to "work it out" (this is synergism interposed with monergism). The divine work of grace which God gives is comparable to the talents ([b]Matthew 25[/b]): where to one is given a single talent, another two, and another five (note: everyone receives a talent there are none without at least one). The talents were sovereignly divided according to the King's pleasure as he saw fit. That is to say, were it not for the riches of the generous King the men would have nothing. Therefore, the men took their talents and either improved upon (very different from obtaining or purchasing) what was given to them or neglected so great a (salvation) talent. And this work of these obedient servants is never to be understood as something accomplished apart from the abiding Spirit of Christ that leads us into all righteousness, for he is the sanctifier. Therefore, in this respect, the salvation spoken of in [b]Philippians 2[/b] is the reward for the faithful servants. And the one who buried the talent, even what he had was taken from him. Wherefore the King declared "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." In this regard, the reward of disobedience rather than faithful stewardship is hell. That is to say, obedience does not obtain salvation, for salvation is not of works but of grace through faith in the Son of God, however, those who do not obey (for only those who love him obey his commandments) according to the grace given them shall receive the just reward of condemnation.

Man-centered evangelism tells men to repent so that they can escape hell. It tells men that "you must repent in order for God to save you from Hell." The error of man centered evangelism is not only in doctrine, but in motivation.

Man centered evangelism is primarily motivated by a horror that men are going to hell. This horror is not wrong. However, it should not be the primary horror.

John Fletcher has explained conditional election, in part, as this:
'We believe that Jesus Christ died for the whole human race, with an intention, first, to procure absolutely and unconditionally a temporary redemption, or an initial salvation for all men universally: and, secondly, to procure a particular redemption, or an eternal salvation conditionally for all men, but absolutely for all that die in their infancy, and for all the adult who obey him, and are "faithful unto death."

We believe that, in consequence of the general and temporary redemption procured by Christ for all mankind, every man is unconditionally blessed with a day of grace, which the Scripture calls "the accepted time," and "the day of salvation." During this day, (under various dispensations of grace, and by virtue of various covenants made through Christ, David, Moses, Abraham, Noah, or Adam,) God, for Christ's sake, affords all men proper means, abilities, and opportunities to " work out their own salvation," or to make "their calling and conditional election" to the eternal blessings of their respective dispensations "sure ;" and as many do it, by keeping "the free gift which is come" unto all men, or by recovering it. through faithful obedience to re-converting grace : or, in other terms, as many as know, and perseveringly improve "the day of their visitation," are, in consequence of Christ's particular redemption, entitled to an eternal redemption or salvation : that is, they are eternally redeemed from hell, and eternally saved into different degrees of heavenly glory, according to the different degrees of their faithfulness, and the various dispensations which they are under. While they that bury their talent, and "know not [i. e. squander away] the day of their visitation," forfeit their initial salvation, and secure to themselves God's judicial reprobation, together with all its terrible consequences.
. . .
We do not believe that Divine grace is indiscriminately given to all men. For although we assert that God gives to all at least one talent of true grace to profit with; yet we acknowledge that he makes as real a difference between man and man, as between an angel and an archangel, giving to some men one talent, to others two talents, and to others five, according to the election of distinguishing grace, maintained in the Scripture Scales, sec. xii. But the least talent of grace is saving, if free will do not bury it to the last.

And we believe that although God foresaw that in some unhappy periods of the world's duration the greater part of adults would reject his grace, he nevertheless bestows it in different measures upon all; but not (as Mr. Hill says) "in order to heighten the torments, and increase the damnation of any in hell." This is a horrid conceit, which we return to those who insinuate that God gives common grace (that is, we apprehend unsaving, graceless grace) to absolute reprobates, i. e. to men for whom (upon Mr. Hill's scheme of absolute reprobation) there never was in God the least degree of mercy and saving goodness. This shocking consequence, fixed upon us by Mr. Hill, is the genuine offspring of [deterministic] non-election, which supposes that God sends the Gospel to myriads of men from whom he absolutely keeps the power of believing it; tantalizing them with offers of free grace here, that he may, without possibility of escape, sink them hereafter to the deepest hell,-the hell of the Capernaites.'

boG & HomeFree89,

Your reactions to this thread remind me of a game played to demonstrate how rumors get started. People line up and pass a whisper down the line - when you reach the end the original message has changed completely.

Reading your replies make me feel you have not read the entire original post.

To get to the root of the matter between conditional security vs eternal security of the believer in Christ, we must [b]look at the factor of motivation for each of the positions.

That first paragraph in the post says that both sides to an argument will be presented. It does not say both sides are supported or endorsed.

Tonight as we were returning to home from a visit we saw a perfect representation of this threads theme. Driving past a physical Church their sign board read, "Where will I spend eternity?" It was a simple thing to understand that they are promoting self-centeredness instead of being God-centered.

Kind regards,
white stone

That first paragraph in the post says that both sides to an argument will be presented.

I realize that was said, but I don't believe it was done correctly.

My beliefs (which as you can tell, aren't OSAS) are not based out of motives of self-preservation, but out of times of biblical study, thinking, and prayer.

Again, how can Old Joe make a blanket statement like he's done?

I personally have seen self-centeredness and self-preservation on both sides of this argument. Do I then think that everyone who holds to OSAS is self-centered? No! I have dear brothers and sisters on both sides.

God bless!

I don't know your motives dear brothers and sisters. But, I know what the word of God says concerning His promises towards us. The condition of Faith and repentance are gifts that are wrought in us by the gospel of God's grace. If we turn God's words of "shall" into "maybe" or "possibly" it has a negative effect on our faith.

BoG said this,

As for the example of Whitefield to Wesley, I would mention, the reason that "unconditional election" takes away from the Christian heart the most profitable and pure fear of the Lord. If we have no danger of being cast in to hell then the words of Jesus are vain in our ears: "fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

No one is denying the fear of the LORD. True Faith that is set on God's promises is also set on God's warnings. God's warnings of wrath are only taken heed to (from a God glorifying motive) when we also trust His promises towards us.

I wrote the following in a previous thread. And the scripture passages I sited are still unaddressed...

Keep in mind, that the scriptural doctrine of Election has nothing to do with God seeing something special in us. But, it has everything to do with God being the Author and finisher of our Faith.

The Faith that we must stand by, is a hope in His gospel promises. I encourage you that your Faith and hope must be in God's sure and steadfast promises as well as His sure and steadfast warnings. God cannot lie. If your Faith is not steadfast in the promise that God will finish the work He began in you, then your Faith will be little, because you will begin to look to yourself for strength and victory. By the Fear of God we depart from evil. Faith works a love for righteousness and a hatred towards evil. Someone who has Faith that God will never leave them nor forsake them, will also have the Fear of God in their heart. Faith must have hope in the promises of God. Hope in the strength of our will and running capabilities is a Faith that is void of hope. For there is no hope, if Salvation depends upon the will and running of man.

Consider, how do you know that tomorrow you won't wake up hating God? How do you know that a year from now you won't forsake God by utterly denying Him? How do you know that you will remain in Christ if you could utterly fall away and alas end up in hell?

One might answer, "Yes, I have faith and I know that in me there is enough will power and strength to finish the race. Therefore I believe I shall finish well."

Do you not see that, such a man is hoping in himself and his faith is directed to himself rather than the promises of God?

You stand by Faith, and that Faith is a gift of God. Be not high minded. But, fear God. For it is God that holds you up through his gift of Faith. And that Faith is not of yourself.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." [Eph 2:8-10]

This is a clip from an article,

STATEMENTS AND PROMISES OF GOD THAT WOULD BE NULLIFIED IF ONE COULD LOSE THEIR SALVATION.

Please confer errors with respective scriptural refutations.

ERROR vs. TRUTH

1. He is not able to perform what He had promised Romans 4:21
2. He will not present me blameless 1 Thessalonians 5:24
3. He did not predestine me unto the adoption as a child Ephesians 1:5
4. There is condemnation for me even though I am in Christ Jesus Romans 8:1
5. Christ has not risen from the dead Romans 6:8-12
6. The Holy Spirit will take back His deposit Ephesians 1:13-14
7. The Holy Spirit did not seal us 2 Corinthians 1:22
8. He will leave me and He will forsake me Hebrews 13:5
9. He will not keep me from falling Jude 24
10. He will not preserve me forever Psalm 37:28
11. The truth (Jesus Christ) will not be with me forever 2 John 2
12. He did not cleanse me from all unrighteousness 1 John 1:9
13. His foundation is not sure 2 Timothy 2:19
14. He does not know them that are His 2 Timothy 2:19
15. He will cast me out John 6:37
16. He did not perfect me Hebrews 10:14
17. His prayer for me was not answered John 17:11-12
18. He is not interceding for me Hebrews 7:25
19. He did not complete the work He began in me Philippians 1:6
20. My life is not hid with Christ in God Colossians 3:3
21. I have not passed from death unto life John 5:24
22. He is not able to keep that which I have committed to Him 2 Timothy 1:12
23. I am not at peace with God Romans 5:1
24. I can be plucked out of His hand John 10:28-29
25. I can be separated from the love of God Romans 8:39
26. His righteousness is not everlasting Psalm 119:142
27. His love is not everlasting Jeremiah 31:3
28. He is not immutable Hebrews 6:18
29. He did not keep His promise Hebrews 6:17
30. He is a liar Titus 1:2

The consequences of believing a person can lose their salvation create obvious theological problems that contradict scripture. For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect? Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. Romans 3:3-4a

Source: http://www.eschatology.com/eternal.html

Biblical Perseverance includes gospel promises and gospel warning of which true Faith takes heed to.

Hence brother Nathan Pitchford quotes these Word's of God in is artilce,

God’s preservation of the saints is not irrespective of their continuance in the faith

1Cor 6:9-10 "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

Gal 5:19-21 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."

Eph 5:5 "For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God."

Heb 3:14 "For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end."

Heb 6:4-6 "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

Heb 10:26-27 "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries."

Heb 12:14 "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord."

Rev 21:7-8 "He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

Rev 22:14-15 "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie."

However, it is God who sanctifies us and causes us to persevere

John 15:16 "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you."

1Cor 1:30-31 "But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord."

1Cor 6:11 "And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

1Cor 12:3 "Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost."

1Cor 15:10 "But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me."

Gal 3:1-6 "O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. 5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."

Eph 2:10 "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

Phi 2:12-13 "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

1The 5:23-24 "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it."

Heb 13:20-21 "Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen."

1John 2:29 "If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him."

Jud 1:24-25 "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen."

-Abraham

EDIT:Spell check

I stated this,

Man-centered evangelism tells men to repent so that they can escape hell. It tells men that "you must repent in order for God to save you from Hell." The error of man centered evangelism is not only in doctrine, but in motivation.

BoG stated this in response,

Hell is not so popular a sermon today. It would appear the common theme is "repent so you can go to heaven" with little or no mention of the depraved condition of sinners and the wrath of God -- so it is not an evangelism of terror but of covetousness.

Please do not think I don't preach on hell. I have had people stop witnessing with me because I preach on the wrath of God. The wrath of God is one of my favorite attributes of God.

My point in saying this was that the focus is not on sin and God's wrath, but rather self preservation and fire. Their are plenty of men who went to hell fearing fire and with strong desire for mercy to cool the flames. However, there has never been a man who went to hell fearing God with a strong desire for mercy through the Cross of Christ. Moreover, I was correcting the false doctrine of repentance prior to the new birth. You know, that error that teaches that unregenerate man can bring forth the fruits of the spirit from his evil heart. What a horrible thought to entertain. Let us vomit that out of our hearts through the grace of God.

Here are some comps that I put together on hell.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=16926&forum=35&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=0]The Damnation of Hell[/url]

Again please don't think I don't preach the wrath of God, hell, and repentance. It's a joy of mine to study these topics. Here are some scripture lists that I have put together.

The Wrath of God in Isaiah
Isa 1:20
Isa 1:24
Isa 1:28-30
Isa 2:13-21
Isa 3:11
Isa 5:9
Isa 5:25
Isa 9:19-20
Isa 10:3
Isa 10:18
Isa 13:5-9
Isa 13:11
Isa 13:13
Isa 14:22
Isa 14:30
Isa 15:4
Isa 15:9
Isa 16:10
Isa 17:11
Isa 19:16
Isa 21:3
Isa 22:5
Isa 22:18
Isa 24:4-6
Isa 24:19
Isa 24:21
Isa 26:20-21
Isa 29:2
Isa 29:6
Isa 29:20
Isa 30:27
Isa 30:30
Isa 30:33
Isa 31:2-4
Isa 34:2-3
Isa 34:5
Isa 34:8-9
Isa 42:13
Isa 42:25
Isa 43:13
Isa 47:3
Isa 47:14
Isa 49:26
Isa 50:11
Isa 51:6
Isa 51:20
Isa 59:17-18
Isa 63:3-4
Isa 63:6
Isa 63:10
Isa 65:12
Isa 65:15
Isa 66:6
Isa 66:14-16

Hell and Eternal Punishment in Isaiah

Hell and Eternal Punishment
1. "Therefore my people are gone into captivity, because they have no knowledge: and their honourable men are famished, and their multitude dried up with thirst. Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it." [Isa 5:13-14]
2. "Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us? Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee." [Isa 14:9-11]
3. "Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit." [Isa 14:15]
4. "Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves." [Isa 28:15]
5. "And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it." [Isa 28:18]
6. "For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it." [Isa 30:33]
7. "And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever." [Isa 34:9-10]
8. "And thou wentest to the king with ointment, and didst increase thy perfumes, and didst send thy messengers far off, and didst debase thyself even unto hell." [Isa 57:9]
9. "And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh." [Isa 66:24]

The Sorrows of Death and the Pains of Hell
1. "For ye shall be as an oak whose leaf fadeth, and as a garden that hath no water. And the strong shall be as tow, and the maker of it as a spark, and they shall both burn together, and none shall quench them." [Isa 1:30-31]
2. "And it shall come to pass, that instead of sweet smell there shall be stink; and instead of a girdle a rent; and instead of well set hair baldness; and instead of a stomacher a girding of sackcloth; and burning instead of beauty." [Isa 3:24]
3. "Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel." [Isa 5:24]
4. "Through the wrath of the LORD of hosts is the land darkened, and the people shall be as the fuel of the fire: no man shall spare his brother." [Isa 9:19]
5. "And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames." [Isa 13:8]
6. "But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet." [Isa 14:19]
7. "Fear, and the pit, and the snare, are upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth. And it shall come to pass, that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake." [Isa 24:17-18]
8. "And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited." [Isa 24:22]
9. "For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth." [Isa 38:18]
10. "Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it." [Isa 47:14]
11. "There is no peace, saith the LORD, unto the wicked." [Isa 48:22]
12. "There is no peace, saith my God, to the wicked." [Isa 57:21]
13. "Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, my servants shall eat, but ye shall be hungry: behold, my servants shall drink, but ye shall be thirsty: behold, my servants shall rejoice, but ye shall be ashamed: Behold, my servants shall sing for joy of heart, but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart, and shall howl for vexation of spirit." [Isa 65:13-14]
14. "I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not." [Isa 66:4]

The Duty and Fruit of Repentance in Isaiah

Ceasing from the Love and Practice of Sin
Isa 1:13
Isa 1:16-17
Isa 30:22
Isa 31:6-7
Isa 55:6-7
Isa 56:2
Isa 58:13
Isa 59:20
Must Be In Love Towards God
Isa 7:9
Isa 10:21
Isa 30:15
Isa 44:22
Must Be In Humility With Godly Sorrow Over Sin
Isa 22:12
Isa 57:15

Perseverance of the Saints and Assurance in Isaiah
Isa 12:2
Isa 26:7
Isa 26:12
Isa 30:15
Isa 32:17-18
Isa 40:31
Isa 40:10
Isa 42:16
Isa 45:17
Isa 46:4
Isa 49:10
Isa 49:15-16
Isa 50:7
Isa 51:6
Isa 54:8-10
Isa 54:17
Isa 57:13
Isa 59:21
Isa 61:8
Isa 66:22

True and False Conversion in Isaiah
False Brethren
Isa 29:13
Isa 30:12
Isa 44:17
Isa 45:20
Isa 48:1
Isa 52:5
Isa 58:2-4
Isa 65:5
Isa 66:5
True Brethren
Isa 26:7
Isa 33:15
Isa 51:1
Isa 59:21
Isa 64:5

Blessing to the glory of God!
-Abraham

EDIT: ADDED quote and clarification of quotes in the beginning

That first paragraph in the post says that both sides to an argument will be presented. It does not say both sides are supported or endorsed.

I personally have seen self-centeredness and self-preservation on both sides of this argument. Do I then then think that everyone who holds to OSAS is self-centered? No! I have dear brothers and sisters on both sides.

And likewise, we have seen the grace of God and the purity of faith in Christ and the motivation to prove what is acceptable unto the Lord, on both sides.

Driving past a physical Church their sign board read, "Where will I spend eternity?" It was a simple thing to understand that they are promoting self-centeredness instead of being God-centered.

Please do not think I don't preach on hell. I have had people stop witnessing with me because I preach on the wrath of God. The wrath of God is one of my favorite attributes of God.

Keep in mind, that the scriptural doctrine of Election has nothing to do with God seeing something special in us. But, it has everything to do with God being the Author and finisher of our Faith.

The Faith that we must stand by, is a hope in His gospel promises. I encourage you that your Faith and hope must be in God's sure and steadfast promises as well as His sure and steadfast warnings. God cannot lie. If your Faith is not steadfast in the promise that God will finish the work He began in you, then your Faith will be little, because you will begin to look to yourself for strength and victory. By the Fear of God we depart from evil. Faith works a love for righteousness and a hatred towards evil. Someone who has Faith that God will never leave them nor forsake them, will also have the Fear of God in their heart. Faith must have hope in the promises of God. Hope in the strength of our will and running capabilities is a Faith that is void of hope. For there is no hope, if Salvation depends upon the will and running of man.

Consider, how do you know that tomorrow you won't wake up hating God? How do you know that a year from now you won't forsake God by utterly denying Him? How do you know that you will remain in Christ if you could utterly fall away and alas end up in hell?

One might answer, "Yes, I have faith and I know that in me there is enough will power and strength to finish the race. Therefore I believe I shall finish well."

Do you not see that, such a man is hoping in himself and his faith is directed to himself rather than the promises of God?

You stand by Faith, and that Faith is a gift of God. Be not high minded. But, fear God. For it is God that holds you up through his gift of Faith. And that Faith is not of yourself.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." [Eph 2:8-10]

[b]Psalms 130
4.[/b] But there is forgiveness with You,
That You may be feared.

I do not agree: "Do you not see that, such a man is hoping in himself and his faith is directed to himself rather than the promises of God?" For you see, why do they fear they may "fall at last"? because there is danger of hoping in themselves and are therefore shut up all the more unto faith in Christ Jesus as the Saviour of our souls.

STATEMENTS AND PROMISES OF GOD THAT WOULD BE NULLIFIED IF ONE COULD LOSE THEIR SALVATION.

Please confer errors with respective scriptural refutations.

ERROR vs. TRUTH

1. He is not able to perform what He had promised Romans 4:21 . . . etc.

The consequences of believing a person can lose their salvation create obvious theological problems that contradict scripture. For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect? Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. Romans 3:3-4a

And here we see the mystery of God's love towards us that while we were yet sinners and estranged from God he sought us out and loved us. So belief and unbelief do not determine the faithfulness of God however the effect of God's love upon the sinner's heart is solely determined by faith ([b]Hebrews 4:2[/b]).

God’s preservation of the saints is not irrespective of their continuance in the faith

[b]Heb 10:26-27[/b], "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries."

So, have you ever wilfully sinned since you have received knowledge of the truth? I don't know about you but "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." For this reason we live by the faith of the Son of God, and not of works, lest every man should perish. None-the-less, faith without works is dead being alone. Faith works by love -- the love of God shed abroad in our hearts through the Holy Ghost. Just as the man who was forgiven the "unpayable debt" did not receive the forgiveness of transgression unto the fear of the King and the cleansing of his heart ([b]Psalm 130:4[/b]), wherefore he refused to forgive another man who owed himself some amount. Therefore his sin was re-instated by the King upon his own head, "So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses." From this point, we have two arguments.
[b]1)[/b] if you do not obey the King you shall not be forgiven your sins ([b]Matthew 6:12; Luke 11:4[/b]).
[b]2)[/b] obey the King and prove what is pleasing in his sight.

[b]Rev 21:7-8[/b], "He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving . . ."

Notice, he that overcomes is contrasted with the "fearful" and "unbelieving". Which obviously implies that those who overcame did not fear, not the same as the fear of the Lord, but having their consciences purified through the Holy Spirit having peace with God and confidence to stand before him in Christ Jesus. Likewise, they were believers. No unbeliever shall inherit eternal life; for the inheritance of eternal life is always, and only, promised to those who believe unto the end (ie. the perseverance of the saints).

However, it is God who sanctifies us and causes us to persevere

I was correcting the false doctrine of repentance prior to the new birth. You know, that error that teaches that unregenerate man can bring forth the fruits of the spirit from his evil heart. What a horrible thought to entertain. Let us vomit that out of our hearts through the grace of God.

My brothers, you will find, as I have, that when we take the time to consider the good fruits (as well as the bad fruits) we shall find that we all agree far more than we often realize in the foundation and cornerstone of our faith. When I hear truth from "unconditional security" I accept it as truth and I live by faith according to that truth. When I hear truth from "conditional security" I accept it as truth and I live by faith according to that truth. And I find they neither contradict nor diminish one or the other.

Be blessed in the Lord you and your families, rejoicing in the remembrance of our Lord and Savior Jesus, the Christ, Merry Christmas!

John 8:31-32 Jesus said: If you continue in my word, then you are really my disciples; and ye will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.

An IF/THEN statement is a conditional statement.

If we do not continue in His word, then we are not His disciples, and we will not know the truth, and we will not remain free.

There are many conditional statements in the Bible. Here is one more example:

2Ch 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

The blessing of God here was dependent upon the repentance of His people.

If we have no choice in the matter, how can we say we love God? How can love be love if it is not voluntary?

Joshua 24:15 Choose for yourselves today whom you will serve.

Service of God in sincerity and truth can only result from a free and willing allegiance of the heart. The true worship of the living God must have its roots in the heart, and spring from the heart, and therefore cannot be forced by prohibitions and commands.

All service that is not free and voluntary can be only deceit and hypocrisy, and God loves a cheerful giver. He therefore calls upon people to make their choice, for God Himself will not force them - they must serve him with all their heart.

And how can it be giving glory to ourselves to deny ourselves, take up our cross, and follow Him?

People may shipwreck their faith by not keeping a good conscience. As a matter of course, they reject and renounce the gospel.

1Timothy 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck.

There is an entire destruction of faith - as a ship is wholly ruined that strikes on a rock and sinks. They have been driven to and fro by every wind of doctrine, and, getting among the rocks, have been shipwrecked and engulfed.

Since that which may be put away can only be of something previously had, and to be involved in a shipwreck, you have to already be on the boat, we know this speaks of those who were once believers.

Since those that put away a good conscience will soon make shipwreck of faith, let us live up to the directions of a renewed conscience, and keep conscience void of offense. (Acts 24:16)

1Ti 4:16 Take heed unto yourself, and unto your doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this you will save both yourself, and those who hear you.

Beloved, Grace to you.

I am joyful to find that many of us are in unity concerning the importance of not putting confidence in the flesh. However, I want to stress the importance of putting confidence completely in God.

God has promised eternal Life to His children
Are not God's promises for us (His elect)? Are not God's promises to us who have believed to the saving of the soul? I believe that God is my eternal Salvation. He is not a temporary salvation. I believe that God has presently given me eternal life and this life is in His Son Jesus. I refuse to believe that God may have only given me temporary life. I believe that God has justified me freely by His grace and I am among His elect through His tender mercies. God cannot Elect us by His everlasting love and then unelect us into everlasting wrath. The Lord doesn't make mistakes like we do. Sometimes we think God is like us. He is unchanging. He doesn't make mistakes when He elects and chooses to bestow everlasting love on a soul.

I believe that God has loved me with an everlasting love. And "no" I do not deserve this love. But, He has loved me for His own name sake to the praise of the glory of His grace. Hallelujah! Shame on those who despise God's everlasting Love by calling it unjust and unfair.

Jesus has saved us by the blood of the everlasting covenant. His mercies towards us are new every morning. God has put His fear in our heart, so that we will not depart from him. His promise of eternal life is sure to us. He is my song and my salvation and I will glory in my redeemer.

A Refusal to Believe Error
I do not believe that false doctrine that teaches that there are souls in hell who were once born of God. How despairing and discouraging is that thought! Neither do I believe that perverted doctrine that teaches that there are souls in Hell who were once dearly loved by God and freely justified by His grace. Oh, I hate such lies for they destroy the truth that we who have believed are clothed with the everlasting righteousness of Christ by the blood of the everlasting covenant.

An Exhortation to Husbands
Husbands, I have word for you. Love your wives as Christ has loved the church. Christ has loved His church with an everlasting love. Christ has loved His church with an unconditional love that is steadfast.

What a shameful sin it is for a man to refuse to love His wife with an unconditional-everlasting love. Do you require some goodness in your wife before you love her? I tell you that you are not following Christ's example. Christ died for the ungodly. He laid down His life for us (His sheep) in that while we were yet sinners. Jesus loves His wife through His everlasting mercies and He will never stop loving her. Shame on the man who tells the bride of Christ that Jesus' love for her may cease.

Beloved, Grace be with you forever! -Abraham

Psa 23:6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD forever.

EDIT: Sentence structure and calrification

Dear Abe

A Refusal to Believe Error
A Refusal to Believe Error
I do not believe that false doctrine that teaches that there are souls in hell who were once born of God. How despairing and discouraging is that thought! Neither do I believe that perverted doctrine that teaches that there are souls in Hell who were once dearly loved by God and freely justified by His grace. Oh, I hate such lies for they destroy the truth that we who have believed are clothed with the everlasting righteousness of Christ by the blood of the everlasting covenant

Dear Abe,

I do believe this what you call error and there are numerous bible verses I could quote which you would refute with numerous bible verses.

I m joyful to find that many of us are in unity concerning the importance of not putting confidence in the flesh. However, I want to stress the importance of putting confidence completely in God

Abe, you are drawing a dividing line that need not exist.

I do not see much irresistable grace displayed in your post though I do see your perseverance in continously driving your particular dogma here this forum rather than edifying the saints. Let's take heed that this discussion does not display Total Depravity

You are not just giving your opinion but you unsettle other people especially those young or instable in the faith with the way you go about it. I find that disturbing.

I am not a Calvinist as you can see, but I do glean from both Arminianists and Calvinist leaning preachers. I do not like your way of proselysation here on SI.

Think about it.

narrowpath

I am joyful to find that many of us are in unity concerning the importance of not putting confidence in the flesh. However, I want to stress the importance of putting confidence completely in God.

Amen.

...Let's take heed that this discussion does not display Total Depravity You are not just giving your opinion but you unsettle other people especially those young or instable in the faith with the way you go about it. I find that disturbing.

There are many opinions that are being shared on these forums, including your own. I have not brought calvinism or armianism into this thread and it is my desire to keep the peace by focusing on the scriptures rather than forming camps. If a brother is in error, we are to correct one another in love with the word of God. I have declared the Word of God and stated the errors of denying these scriptural truths. Does that disturb you? My opinions have no value. What Saith the Scriptures?

2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

For the cause of God and truth, I will declare man's utter corruption in sin.

Blessings in love to you brother,

[1] The wicked are a seed of evildoers. They are children that are corrupters. Their whole head is sick and their whole heart is faint. From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it (Isa 1:4-6).
[2] The gifts and sacrifices of the wicked are vain and abominable unto God. The religious zeal and penance of the wicked is iniquity (Isa 1:13).
[3] The wicked may hear the gospel with their ears, but they do not understand it with an ear of faith. The wicked may see the works of the LORD with their eyes, but they do not perceive the LORD with the eyes of understanding (Isa 6:9).
[4] When the LORD smits or punishes the wicked, they do not turn unto him. The wicked do not seek the LORD (Isa 9:13).
[5] The LORD shall have no joy in the young men that He has chosen to not have mercy upon. For everyone of them is a hypocrite, an evildoer, and every mouth speaks folly (Isa 9:17).
[6] If favor is shown to the wicked, he will not learn righteousness. In the land of uprightness he will not deal justly and he will not behold the majesty of the LORD (Isa 26:10).
[7] The wicked are children that will not hear the law of the LORD (Isa 30:9).
[8] The heart of the wicked will work iniquity (Isa 32:6).
[9] All nations before the LORD are as nothing. They are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity (Isa 40:17).
[10] The wicked may see many of the wonderful works of God, but they will not observe or give heed to the gospel call. The wicked may attend to hear the gospel with their ears, but they do not understand it with their heart (Isa 42:20).
[11] The greedy shepherds cannot understand (Isa 56:11).
[12] None of the wicked call for justice. None of the wicked plead [or defend] for truth. The works of the wicked are works of iniquity. Their feet run to evil, and they make haste to shed innocent blood. Their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity. Wasting [or violence] and destruction are in their paths. The way of peace they know not. There is no judgment in their goings. They have made them crooked paths. The wicked are in desolate places as dead men (Isa 59:4-10).
[13] We are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags. We all do fade as a leaf. Our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. There is none that calleth upon the name of the LORD, that stirreth up himself to take hold of the LORD (Isa 64:6-7).

MAN'S UTTER RUIN

UTTERLY SINFUL - The unregenerate only do evil and only do sin with their heart
Rom 3:10-18
Heb 11:6
Rom 14:23
OUTWARD GOODNESS - The natural man may show outward acts of goodness. However, these are not acts of love towards God. Therefore these acts are sinful because of the intentions of the heart.
ATTENDING TO THE WORD OF GOD
Act 17:18-21
HOSPITALITY
Act 28:2
Act 28:7
Act 28:10
FOLLOWING AFTER THEIR OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS
Mt 23:27-28
Lk 11:39-44
Lk 16:15
Lk 18:9-12
Rom 9:31
Rom 10:2-3

UNIVERSAL CONDEMNATION - by the offense of Adam judgment came upon all men to condemnation
Rom 5:12
Rom 5:14
EVIL NATURE - The unregenerate have an evil nature and they have need of a new nature
Jn 3:3
Jn 3:6-7
Jn 5:37-38
Rom 7:5
EVIL NATURE FROM THE WOMB
Rom 3:9
Rom 8:5
Rom 8:9
Rom 9:8
CHILDREN OF THE DEVIL
Jn 8:44
Act 13:10
EVIL HEART - The unregenerate have an evil heart and they have need of a new heart
Mt 12:34-35
Mt 13:13-15
Mk 7:21-23
Jn 2:25
Act 28:26-27
SPIRITUAL BLINDNESS
Jn 1:5
Jn 1:10
EXAMPLES OF AN EVIL HEART
UNWILLING TO COME TO CHRIST
Mt 22:3
SELF JUSTIFICATION AGAINST CHRIST
Lk 10:29
UNWILLING TO BRING OTHERS TO CHRIST
Lk 13:34
HATRED TOWARDS THE REIGN OF CHRIST
Lk 19:14
Lk 19:27
UNWILLING TO BELIEVE ON CHRIST
Lk 22:67-68
DESIRING TO MURDER CHRIST
Lk 23:25
UNWILLING TO RECEIVE CHRIST
Jn 1:11
Jn 3:11
MORE EXAMPLES
Jn 3:19-20
Jn 5:40-44
Jn 12:43
Jn 15:24
Jn 18:39-40
Act 7:39
Act 7:51
Act 22:18
BONDAGE
Jn 3:32
Jn 8:34
Act 8:23
FREE FROM RIGHTEOUSNESS
Rom 6:20
INABILITY - The unregenerate have an inability to do anything good with their nature and heart (Notice the words "able, can, cannot, could not")
Lk 13:24
Jn 6:44
Jn 6:65
Jn 8:14-15
Jn 8:21-23
Jn 8:43-47
Jn 12:38-40
Jn 14:17
Jn 15:5
Rom 8:7-8

HOPELESSNESS IN MAN AND HOPEFULNESS IN GOD - Scriptures that box sinners up to the mercy of God and thus leaving them no hope or confidence in their evil heart. Scriptures that lead sinners to a healthy dispair, so that they might set their hope in God and not in themselves
Mt 23:31-33
Jn 1:12-13
Jn 6:63
Jn 8:36
Jn 10:26-27

-Abraham

EDIT: spell check

All service that is not free and voluntary can be only deceit and hypocrisy, and God loves a cheerful giver. He therefore calls upon people to make their choice, for God Himself will not force them - they must serve him with all their heart.

I'm at agreement with this statement. Thank you dear brother for sharing your thoughts on the matter. I encourage the emphasizing of our responsibility of duty to joyfully delight in worshiping God at all times. Though we disagree on other matters, I want you to know that I love you as precious brothers and sisters whom Christ has loved with an everlasting love.

I wanted to share this devotional thought as an encouraging not for everyone.

Merry Christmas!

We have many foes! (by Charles Spurgeon)

In one sense the path to heaven is very safe--but in other respects, there is no road so dangerous! It is beset with many difficulties. One false step (and how easy it is to take that, if grace is absent), and down we go! What a slippery path is that which we have to tread!

How many times have we to exclaim with the Psalmist, "My feet were almost gone--my steps had well nigh slipped!" If we were strong, sure-footed mountaineers, this would not matter so much; but in ourselves, how weak we are! In the best roads--we soon falter; in the smoothest paths--we quickly stumble. These feeble knees of ours, can scarcely support our tottering weight. A straw may trip us, and a pebble can wound us! We are mere children, tremblingly taking our first steps in the walk of faith; our heavenly Father holds us by the arms--or we would soon go down! Oh, if we are kept from falling, how must we bless our patient Father, who watches over us day by day!

Think--how prone we are to sin, how apt to choose danger, how strong our tendency to cast ourselves down--and these reflections will make us sing more sweetly than we have ever done, "Glory be to Him, who is able to keep us from falling."

We have many foes who try to push us down. The road is rough--and we are weak! But in addition to this, enemies lurk in ambush, who rush out when we least expect them, and labor to trip us up, or hurl us down the nearest precipice! Only an Almighty arm can preserve us from these unseen foes--who are seeking to destroy us. Such an arm is engaged for our defense. He is faithful, who has promised, and He is able to keep us from falling--so that with a deep sense of our utter weakness, we may cherish a firm belief in our perfect safety, and say, with joyful confidence, "To Him who is able to keep us from falling and to present us before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy--to the only God our Savior, be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen." Jude 1:24-25

EDIT: spell check

Old Joe,

I would appreciate it if you would go back and read my last two posts and answer my question (how can you make a blanket statement...).

Greetings everyone,

Abe_Juliot,

You said,

"For the cause of God and truth, I will declare man's utter corruption in sin."

And before that,

"My opinions have no value. What Saith the Scriptures?"

And yet, between the multitudes of scriptures which you are qouting, there is a multitude of [b]your own words[/b].

For instance,

The unregenerate only do evil and only do sin with their heart

The scripture says that [b]every word of God is pure[/b].

But, are yours?

The word of God describes Cornelius, before he was baptised in the Holy Spirit, as a devout man, and one that feared God.

That is the way that the Bible described him.

The Bible says that every word of God is pure.

Are yours?

I thought your question was already answered in my original post, but I will try again.

No, I only saw a biased opinion telling me what my motives were.

What motivates you to perseverance in practical holiness?

Seeking to glorify my Lord.

If you believe loss of salvation is even possible, through an attempt at preservation of self, it is a key motivator in your perseverance.

Why would I believe that I could lose my salvation if I was wanting to preserve self? I could, in an easier way, just believe in OSAS and feel totally secure that self is preserved.

Hi again everyone,

Old_Joe, you had asked this earlier,

"What motivates you to perseverance in practical holiness? Potential loss of salvation, or the glory of God?"

But what exactly is the point of asking people about their motives here? God weighs motives, but I think that the Bible gives many reasons and exhortations about this:

For instance, those in Hebrews 4:11, 12:1,14-17.

Or those of Paul, the Apostle, to the Philippians(2:14-16)?

Or what he says later of himself(3:1-11). And of what he seeks to attain.

Or of those he writes about in the letter to the Romans(2:7) and what they are seeking.

Or what else he said of himself(Php 3:12-14) and to what mark and to what prize he pressed.

Also, about this,

"At that point your perseverance is not a denial of self, but a mere service of self, having its root in motivation of self-love."

I don't understand, are we supposed to despise the gift of life? Isn't it rather [b]life in this world[/b](John 12:25)?

Does denial of self mean we have no love for life, or of keeping it into eternity?

"For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile: Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it."

- 1 Peter 3:10-11(KJV)

What then of the Lord Jesus' warnings in Mat 5:29?

I looked up the greek there, where it says...

...it is profitable for thee

According to the Greek dictionary, [b]thee[/b]...

...it means, [b]thee[/b].

Friends,

I very rarly, if ever, have raised my voice in these forums,

But, I want to exhort you all with all love and deadly seriousness as I can

BEWARE OF PHILOSPHERS

SERIOUSLY WHY WOULD ANYBODY BOTHER PUTTING PRECIOUS ENERGY INTO THESE KINDS OF POSTS ... THAT END UP IN BICKERING AND SQUABLINGS?????????

Secondly if Paul was around today: would NOT the same man that once exhorted avoid "stivings" and "contentions" about the law - be equally if not just as concerned over bickerings over eternal security arguments?? ( altho some would contend they are friendly theologicol disputes and discussions ) well judging by the last few responses ... U could have fooled me!!!!!

Thirdly: Doctrine was NEVER intended to be given in such a way it destroys UNITY and harmony amongst the saints of God! causing people to DISSEMBLE with dissumulation ... but i suppose that is the answer and reason why we have a trillion different denominations to this present day!!!!

We cant agree together so the answer lies in dissembling and to be carried away like barnabus - by the dissumulation. Doctrine was never given in such a way that it leads us to become DIVISIVE with one another!! ( Surely ) ??

The ONLY winner through all that RUBBISH is the devil - who sits back and laughs at the dissension ... as we all blast each other to bits.

Forthly: Doctrine is important NO DOUBT you need a basis for what one believes....however having said that - we cant force our convictions onto others....true unity does not ask others to give up their convictions...so as to EMBRACE theirs...we can't manipulate others to believe our way (or) the same way we do...the holy spirit must be the one to "break through" and reveal what is TRUTH to them ....WE CANT CHANGE OTHERS...we have to leave that up to God by his spirit....and in the mean time - God help anyone who deliberately dissrupts or sows discord amonst God's people or who is "given to" dissembling and the dissension of Christ's people. ( the church )

FIFTHLY: NO ONE is asking you to believe the same way "YOU" DO ... or to EMBRACE MY BELIEFS/ or DOCTRINES... KEEP AND HOLD TO WHAT (YOU BELIEVE) Amen!....BUT IN THE MEANTIME...WE EXHORT THIS - IF YOU CLAIM TO BE IN CHRIST? Endeavoring to keep the unity of the spirit in the BOND of peace" For one things God hates -- is the PERSON that sows DISCORD amongst the brethren....it really is that serious!!

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of the One having raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the One having raised the Christ from the dead will also make your mortal bodies live through the indwelling of His Spirit in you.
Rom 8:12 So, then,[b] brothers,[/b] we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to flesh,
Rom 8:13 for [b]if[/b] you live according to flesh, [b]you[/b] are going to die. But if by the Spirit you put to death the practices of the body, you will live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

Its simple, brethren is fellow brother in Christ or several of them, and Paul says if you live according to the flesh you will die, if you live according to the spirit you will live.

I say as dr Tozer, "i am convinced about eternal security for my own sake, others im not to sure about."

Gods peace and blessing to all who work out their salvation with fear and trembling and in making their election sure. Gods wisdom is higher then ours, when someone claim they have it figured out we can be sure he know nothing as he ought to know. Including doctrines.

But love my brethren, love....

Sorry for back tracking but I believe this is pertinent to your whole discussion....

Brother Abe wrote way back....

The Lord gave me a verse in Psalm 23 a few years ago to comfort me when I was fearing that I might lose my salvation and perish in the end. "Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD forever." (Psa 23:6) Oh, that word "surely" became a precious promise to my weary soul in those dark days of despair.

I rejoice in your testimony of how God spoke to you.

Secondly...Have you considered that God spoke these very words to David for the same reason?

Thirdly...what might this mean in terms of the doctrines we try to support?

In Christ
Jeff

[i]And I will make an [u]everlasting covenant[/u] with them, that [b]I will not turn away from them[/b], to do them good; but [b]I will put my fear in their hearts, that [u]they shall not depart from me.[/u][/b][/i] (Jeremiah 32:40)

[i]Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the [u]everlasting covenant[/u]...[/i] (Hebrews 13:20)

I mention the Hebrews verse to show that the Jeremiah passage is talking about New Covenant promises. This is no "philosophy", this is simple Scripture reading.

People are simply going to have to ask themselves: "do I want to cut this verse out of my Bible, or do I want to believe it?"

Yes, we know that there are verses in the Bible that warn against apostasy. Every sound believer that believed the Bible's promises on God's preservation of his people has exhorted professors to make their calling and election sure. However, the Bible [b]plainly[/b] states that those who partake in the New Covenant both are preserved by God, and will never turn away from God.

With care in Christ,
Taylor

Old_Joe wrote:

HomeFree89 wrote:

What motivates you to perseverance in practical holiness?

Seeking to glorify my Lord.

Therein lies the problem, because you are only seeking to glorify Him, you are not really sure that you are doing it. But it begs the question, how exactly does YOU persevering bring glory to God? Is it not just another way to bring glory to yourself?

HomeFree89 wrote:

If you believe loss of salvation is even possible, through an attempt at preservation of self, it is a key motivator in your perseverance.

Why would I believe that I could lose my salvation if I was wanting to preserve self? I could, in an easier way, just believe in OSAS and feel totally secure that self is preserved.

If salvation can be lost, then your salvation can be lost, PERIOD. Only a charlatan would preach that others can lose their salvation, but they themselves cannot.

If you were totally preserved, then there would be no possibility of other motive for your perseverance than the glory of God. It is only when you believe you have a hand in your own preservation that your part in it automatically becomes a key motive for your perseverance.

Old Joe

Old Joe,

I'm am stepping out of this thread. Say what I will, there is no getting around your biased and preconceived notions about those of us who don't believe in eternal security.

As I pointed out in my first post, there are misunderstandings (however, there appears to be some twisting of words on purpose here) on both sides.

I wish you the best in Christ Jesus.

Old_Joe,

You said,

"It helps them determine their condition."

Says who, you?

Did the Lord Jesus Christ, or the Apostles tell you to do this? Are [b]you God[/b]?, that you can wheigh men's motives and determine their conditions?

One can be saved and not know they have eternal security, but because not knowing they have eternal security is a characteristic of the lost, those who do not have it ought to be questioned.

[i]not knowing they have eternal security is a characteristic of the lost[/i]

Where are these words in the Bible. Are they your words, or did they come from somewhere else?

The question that you asked was:

[i]What motivates you to perseverance in practical holiness? Potential loss of salvation, or the glory of God?[/i]

Who told you to ask the people here these questions?

But, in response to your questions, I gave you the refrences in the sciptures. Instead of filling the pages here with more of your own words, why not [b]examine what motives are suggested in those exhortations in answer to your question[/b].

Those are all fine exhortations meant for those who already HAVE everlasting life. They are meaningless for those who do not HAVE everlasting life.

The same applies. You asked

What motivates you to perseverance in practical holiness? Potential loss of salvation, or the glory of God?

Why not examine the passages and determine what motives the Bible is giving. Instead of going on with your opinions?

Of course we are not supposed to despise the gift of life, but we are to acknowledge that we HAVE the gift of EVERLASTING life.

This isn't what you had said before either.

You said,

At that point your perseverance is not a denial of self, but a mere service of self, having its root in motivation of self-love.

To which I gave you the refrences in the scriptures. Why don't you examine those passages and see what motives they are giving. Instead of going on with more of your opinions, Old_Joe?

Whether the Lord's Jesus' warnings there are a service of self or not, you decide. But why don't you take up your grievances with Him instead of questioning the people here about their motives in taking heed to [b]His words[/b]?

Old_Joe,

I don't think you have answered much of anything. What I do think is that the characteristics of your words and actions here are to gender more questions and disputes.

You are full of questions Old_Joe.

You might consider asking yourself, if you are in danger of playing games with God's people, and playing God.

Old_Joe,

Yes, full of questions.

Consider what you are doing in the hearts and minds of others with your actions here.

You said, in one case, it will help others determine their condition.

You are not God.

There is a lot of self preservation in this thread and very little godly edifying.

May I say that when we venture out of the scriptures is when we always get into trouble.

Neither eternal security nor conditional security is taught in the bible. Jesus did not preach either one nor did the apostles. There will always be arguments over men's doctrines.

We must not lean to our own understanding but trust in the Lord with all our heart.

Self can be just as must involved with a person believing in eternal security as it can be in one who believes in conditional security.

Salvation, eternal life is Christ. He who hath the Son hath Life. It is not he who has eternal security that is going to live for ever but He who is in Christ. He (Christ) is my eternal security. Christ does not give any man eternal security, He gives himself to that man. We are told to abide in Him.

2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
Heb 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
Heb 12:16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
Heb 12:17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

Neither eternal security nor conditional security is taught in the bible. Jesus did not preach either one nor did the apostles. There will always be arguments over men's doctrines.

Hi Brother, Please see the post I made a few posts down. I tried to plainly demonstrate the preservation of the flock of God from the Scriptures.

And I will make an [u]everlasting covenant[/u] with them, that [b]I will not turn away from them[/b], to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that [b]they shall not depart from me.[/b] (Jeremiah 32:40)

Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the [u]everlasting covenant[/u]... (Hebrews 13:20)

I mention the Hebrews verse to show that the Jeremiah passage is talking about New Covenant promises. This is no "philosophy", this is simple Scripture reading.

People are simply going to have to ask themselves: "do I want to cut this verse out of my Bible, or do I want to believe it?"

Yes, we know that there are verses in the Bible that warn against apostasy. Every sound believer that believed the Bible's promises on God's preservation of his people has exhorted professors to make their calling and election sure. However, the Bible plainly states that those who partake in the New Covenant both are preserved by God, and will never turn away from God.

With care in Christ,
Taylor

TaylorOtwell wrote:

People are simply going to have to ask themselves: "do I want to cut this verse out of my Bible, or do I want to believe it?"

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him

Yes, we know that there are verses in the Bible that warn against apostasy. Every sound believer that believed the Bible's promises on God's preservation of his people has exhorted professors to make their calling and election sure.

2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
2Pe 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

However, the Bible plainly states that those who partake in the New Covenant both are preserved by God, and will never turn away from God.

Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

you know their our many verses that proclaim eternal security and some that proclaim conditional, maybe the bible contradicts itself or they should not have put in certain books, who knows. I trust that the bible is perfect and infallible but these verses do bug me but i feel paul is talking about something different hear, maybe he is saying if it is possible.

Hi again everyone,

I think it is important to keep in front of us the Bible words when men are speaking more and more of their [b]own words[/b].

A good sandwhich can be delicous. It would be very bad though if someone put rotten meat between the bread.

Jude warns

against [b]ungodly men[/b] verse 4

that are [b]twice dead[/b] verse 12

that [b]seperate themselves[/b] verse 19

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life."

- Jude 1:21

Old_Joe,

You said,

Ah yes, Jude's warning is against those that are ONLY ungodly men. Keep going on this though and you will get to the full answer.

No, not only ungodly. He said they were twice dead also.

Old_Joe, what do you mean here, do you mean to go on through more of your words?

Old_Joe, why should I believe anything that you say? I do not mean that in anyway disrespectfully. But why?

The Bible says that [b]every word of God is pure[/b].

Please let me ask this as respectfully and gently as I can try to, are yours?

You said before this,

Attempting to keep EVERLASTING life that has been given you, is nothing other than questioning the EVERLASTING nature of it.

But Jude says,

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life."

- Jude 1:21(KJV)

You said,

To say that the believer is the one doing the overcoming/persevering is to say that the believer's ungodly nature is what is causing them to persevere...

But John the Apostle does not use these words you have written(1Jn 5:18).

And the Lord Jesus Christ does not use the words that you have written here either(Rev 2:26).

The Lord Jesus said,

[b][color=660000]My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or [i]whether[/i] I speak of myself. He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.
[/color][/b]

from John 7:16-18(KJV)

hey old joe this is not a question to cause dispute between me and you but to get an answer from what rbanks posted on those verses in hebrews that look like they teach conditional security, also their others like at the end of the book of james, i already got the answers for hebrews ch.6 and ch. 10 and also peter ch.2 and the branch being thrown in the fire one in john, blessings in the lord john.

bible1985,

I'm neither old nor Joe, but perhaps I can offer something that will help you.

Are you referring to this verse?

[i]Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;[/i] (Hebrews 3:12-14)

First, in Ezekiel 36:26-27 we know that the Lord removes the old heart and gives a new heart to those whom he pleases - we call this regeneration. Ezekiel goes on to record that the Lord will [b]cause[/b] these same people to walk in his statutes.

However, in Hebrews, the author describes certain people's hearts as "evil". Yet, they are outwardly partaking of the covenant via the church meeting, Lord's supper, etc. The author is issuing a warning here, as he does other places in Hebrews.

In essence, just many of ethnic Isreal during the old covenant, you can partake of all of the outward benefits (Red Sea, water from the Rock, Manna), yet still have an evil heart of unbelief! Simply put, these people prove themselves to have never been regenerated - Ezekiel 36:26-27 has never happened to them. How do we know this? 1) They have an evil heart - whereas those in Ezekiel are given a new heart. 2) God causes those referred to Ezekiel to walk in His statutes - and the command to believe in Christ is one of His statutes.

Ultimately, we cannot see who is regenerate and who is not. Therefore, we are to exhort one another daily in the grace of God and to continue in the race. For if there is an unbeliever amongst us (God forbid), it may prove the means to his conversion.

With care in Christ,
Taylor

Attempting to keep EVERLASTING life that has been given you, is nothing other than questioning the EVERLASTING nature of it. You cannot keep it any more than I can keep it, all you can do is trust that Christ will keep you. That is why He said it clearly here:

"...him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life."

Denial of self means your ALL is in Him.

You did not ask whether "conditional" or "unconditional" be true but the motives behind accepting one and the other. I will repeat what I had written previously:

"Do you not see that, such a man is hoping in himself and his faith is directed to himself rather than the promises of God?" Do you see: why do they fear they may "fall at last"? because there is danger of hoping in themselves and are therefore shut up all the more unto faith in Christ Jesus as the Saviour of our souls. As a believer in "conditional security" I also stand with you: "Denial of self means your ALL is in Him".

Therefore we ask, what is the motive behind "conditional security"? The condition cannot be satisfied by man of himself (as Christ said, "without me you can do nothing"), so the man must trust in the grace of God in Christ Jesus to save him.

Is this motive not answering your question? Or are you disappointed because it is the exact same answer you have given for "unconditional security"? As a believer in "conditional security" that is given from a conditional God through the condition that he sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins and that I am saved upon the condition of his grace alone through faith alone, and that I may fall foully and fall finally, I admit that every good thing within me is a good and perfect gift from God, including my salvation, my faith, my new heart, my new will, my new spirit, my righteousness, my justification, etc. -- for all these things are only to be found in Christ Jesus and not of myself. I stand because God upholds and sustains me. Yet, were I to return to my old ways, were I to trust in my flesh, etc., then I would not be in Christ, who is life eternal. Eternal life is not a gift in the sense we might receive a certificate but "this is eternal life, that we may know him, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom he has sent." Eternal life is the communion we partake, the peace we have with God, through the broken body and shed blood of our Savior that was offered up through the Holy Spirit unto the satisfaction of the holiness of God. And as such, eternal life is the relationship we have with the Father through the Son in the Holy Ghost; and this relationship is through faith. Faith may be made shipwreck. The Holy Spirit may be blasphemed. We may return again to the vomit and the mire.

[b]Hebrews 10
26.[/b] \tFor if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
[b]27. [/b]\tBut a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
[b]28.[/b] \tHe that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
[b]29. [/b]\tOf how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, [color=CC0000]wherewith [b][u]he was[/u] [/b]sanctified[/color], an unholy thing, and [b]hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace[/b]?
[b]30. [/b]\tFor we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
[b]31.[/b] \tIt is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

When Paul says that "Christ died for the ungodly", are you ungodly?

[b]Matthew 18
32.[/b] \t"Then summoning him, his lord said to him, `You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
[b]33. [/b]\t`Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
[b]34.[/b] \t"And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
[b]35.[/b] \t"My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart."
And, again, the parable of the talent: "cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

So then, let us ask a different question: what is our motivation for "conditional security" that acknowledges the verity of OSAS and that salvation may be neglected and slighted unto irreconcilable damnation? For the simple reason that both are present in the scriptures.

Hi Old_Joe,

You said,

Twice dead, they would suffer death of body, and were dead in spirit. Sounds like there is nothing godly there at all.

Those are your words.

Again, Jude did not say what you just said. Those are [b]your own words there[/b].

You said,

Why were they twice dead? Because they didn't recognize they were ungodly.

I didn't read that in the passage Old_Joe, where does it say "because they didn't recognize they were ungodly"?

You said,

I have already come to expect that you will never believe anything I say.

We are told that The Lord Jesus has the words of Life. And that the Lord Jesus prayed for those who would believe upon Him through the words of the Apostles(John 17:20).

You are here teaching the Bible [b]in a multitude of your own words[/b] and I am comparing what you say to the Bible.

I asked you why I should believe anything you say.

You asked concerning my words and works,

Nope. Are your words? How about your works, are they pure? How about your perseverance, is it pure? Let alone entirely pure, is it pure enough to squeak by?

I am not here teaching doctrines with questions and a multitude of my own words. I am comparing what you say with what the scripture says.

If you want to know anything about me, or my words, or my works, you may examine them yourself, or ask someone else here, or ask the Lord Jesus Christ Himself and consult the Bible. He said that if I testify of myself, my testimony is not true.

You said,

And so it does. Are you keeping yourself in the love of God? How do you know you have ever even been there?

You asked me this because I compared what you said here with what Jude wrote, first what you claimed:

Attempting to keep EVERLASTING life that has been given you, is nothing other than questioning the EVERLASTING nature of it.

Now, what the Bible says,

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life."

I have put this here to compare what Old_Joe claims, with what Jude says(who also appeals to the words of the Apostles and of the Lord Jesus Christ(Jude 1:17).

Jude says... [i]Keep yourselves in the love of God[/i].

I do not find any of Old_Joe's claims there. Just his words.

I do not see where Jude asks or suggests any of those things that Old_Joe claimed.

We take Jude's words there to be inspired of God and profitable for doctrine.

Next, Old_Joe asked

Let's dig into this one a little. It says "whosoever is born of God sinneth not", do you sin? Why or why not?

This was in response to my comparing what he claimed here with what John the apostle wrote, first what Old_Joe claimed:

To say that the believer is the one doing the overcoming/persevering is to say that the believer's ungodly nature is what is causing them to persevere...

John the Apostle wrote that

[i]...he that is begotten of God keepeth himself[/i]

Again, I do not find what Old_Joe claimed in the words of the Apostle here.

I do not find that John, who we take to be inspired of God, used anything like the langange or reasoning and words that Old_Joe used.

I also suggested to compare his claims with what the Lord Jesus said in Rev 2:26.

And again, I find nothing in similarity there.

Next, Old_Joe claimed about me in particular

Yet you believe with your impure works and impure words you will overcome. How do you think that is even possible?

What are you referring to. Where have I spoken or written these words Old_Joe?

And also,

This is why I keep telling you that you are speaking of yourself in your own perseverance, and seeking your own glory.

This was in reference to my having qouted the Lord Jesus in John 7:16-18.

Where have I spoken of any of the things you are claiming. I have, as far as I can recall, only qouted to you the scriptures in response to your claims.

Please provide the qoutations from me that testify to your accusations.

Thank you,

Chris

Scriptures for your consideration and meditation.

i have added emphasis where i think man has a part in salvation.

Mat 10:22 And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But [b]he who endures to the end[/b] will be saved.

Joh 15:6 [b]If[/b] anyone [b]does not abide[/b] in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand,
1Co 15:2 by which also you are saved, [b]if you hold fast[/b] that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain.

2Ti 2:12 [b]If we endure[/b], We shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us.

2Pe 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, [b]to turn[/b] from the holy commandment delivered to them.

1Co 6:9 [b]Do you not know[/b] that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,
1Co 6:10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

Exo 32:32 Yet now, if You will forgive their sin--but if not, I pray, blot me out of Your book which You have written."
Exo 32:33 And the Lord said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.

Rev 3:5 [b]He who overcomes[/b] shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

Hmmhmm,

Everyone agrees with these Scriptures, as they are breathed out by God.

However, it is a question of who gives the strength to endure? Did not the Lord also say "apart for me you can do nothing"? (John 15)

The prophet Isaiah also says that the Lord has "done all of our works for us" (Isaiah 26:12).

We fully confess that all believers must persevere to the end to be saved, however, we also joyfully confess that is God who works in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure, and that He is the one who is preserving us and giving us the strength to persevere!

[b]If one New Covenant member ever finally turned away from God, it would make Jeremiah 32:40 a lie.[/b] I would be very interested in seeing someone who believes that one time regenerate, New Covenant members can eventually be lost reconcile their position with Jeremiah 32:40.

[i]And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, [b]that they shall not depart from me.[/b] [/i](Jeremiah 32:40)

When we exegete Scripture, we have to ask ourselves, "[i]does my conclusion harmonize with the rest of Scripture?[/i]" The passages to "endure" and "hold fast" perfectly harmonize with a view of God's preservation of His people. However, the view that New Covenant members can eventually lose that status is [b]irreconcilable[/b] with other passages of Scripture.

With care in Christ,
Taylor

TaylorOtwell wrote:
Hmmhmm,

The passages to "endure" and "hold fast" perfectly harmonize with a view of God's preservation of His people. However, the view that New Covenant members can eventually lose that status is [b]irreconcilable[/b] with other passages of Scripture.

Well i agree with you God gives us grace and mercy to be able to endure, but as one who is drowning and a saving hand throws you a rope you can chose to grab it or not. Hold fast and endure til safely in the saviors arms. He will never let go, but i disagree with you on this issue. If we never can lose salvation, it would not be necessary to encourage people like Jesus did, Paul and the other apostles to endure or hold fast seeing they are already safe and in no need to hold fast seeing they can never lose the grip any way.

But I respect your opinion brother, i see both Gods power and enabling grace to keep us and our own responsibility and free will and without any contradiction. The times i have a hard time understanding i just lift my heart and say oh you know Lord, we dont need understand all things. We need to believe them all that is there in scripture, otherwise it would be unbelief. And Gods word is so rich :-) one man said the more he read the less he understood. I think he was an honest man.

Gods ways are so above ours yet so simple, we do make it so hard. I just try belive what it says. When it says [b]you[/b]... get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die....

i believe that...

When it says God will give me a new heart I believe that.

If you wanna call it something i guess God and man in cooperation, as in any love relationship there are two parts, two wills and two loves in unity one....

God in me....

God night brethren :-) i will go to sleep, i leave you with a wise word from a wise man.

[i]we do not speak great things, we live them[/i]
M.M Felix

i read another interesting quote the other day , quoting is just a substitute for intellect....

:-P

Gods grace and mercy to all as you make your election sure. Why would i need to if it already was? ohhh sorry i couldent help myself :-)

Brother,

You make an illogical leap in assuming that since God preserves men, it is needless for Him to encourage them to persevere. According to that reasoning, since God gives people a new heart and new desires, why even give them [b]any[/b] commands?

We have to understand that God has decided to work through means. The elect are brought to salvation through faith and repentance. Their faith is strengthened through the means of the visible representation of the gospel truths in the Lord's Supper. They persevere in that salvation by the means of abiding in that faith and repentance. However, the [b]root[/b] of the means (faith and repentance) is in God. Is it He who "works in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure" (Philippians 2), however, we are still encouraged to walk as children of light.

You did not offer any Scriptural explanation for how the position that New Covenant members can lose that status is reconciled with Jeremiah 32:40.

With care in Christ,
Taylor

thanks for that interpretation

I agree totally with hmmhmm verses as it seems does everyone else!

But let me explain the effect of teaching people that by saying a prayer they are saved and they need do nothing else. I see the effects of this horrible and devilish teaching each and every week when I go into the jails and try to minister to women who are there for the 3rd, 4th, 6th, or 8th time that because they said a prayer when they were age 5, 10, or 15 that they are saved.

My next question to them is, "Have you ever lived for Jesus, walked with Him," and no is their answer but yet they have been told and taught that they are "saved" and going in the rapture. Woo hooo!

I don't know that they aren't but IF we began to take responsibility for teaching and discipling every person we led to the Lord, perhaps this would cut down on all this falsity.

My argument against OSAS is that those who believe and teach this doctrine have FAILED these people by not discipling them and just going for the "count."

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. Matthew 23:15

DeepThinker wrote:
You have to love the LORD to endure all things. The Annasis and Sapphira's didn't have a love for our LORD in their hearts. They were in it for gain. That is the distinction between those who are truly saved and those who are not.

People who believe in OSAS but then say it doesn't work because they weren't really saved because ___(place your reason here)_____.

This denies the Scripture that says in Acts 2.21: whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

You did not offer any Scriptural explanation for how the position that New Covenant members can lose that status is reconciled with Jeremiah 32:40.

The proper question is this: why didn't the Lord put the fear of him in their hearts? Therein lies a mystery we shall not unravel.

Lysa, your discernment against the doctrine of "praying that prayer" is good; for indeed that is a common error that has been birthed by, what I can only reason to be, a combining of OSAS and Pelagianism (decisionism). None-the-less, the problem is not that OSAS is false but that men have taught it in such a careless manner so as to convince men of a certainty of salvation as opposed to encouraging them in the hope of salvation.

Brother Taylor,

I thought I would post at least 3 scriptures before that most wonderful verse 40. I as well as you and many others are so blessed by God with the new covenant.

Jer 32:37 Behold, I will gather them out of all countries, whither I have driven them in mine anger, and in my fury, and in great wrath; and I will bring them again unto this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely:
Jer 32:38 And they shall be my people, and I will be their God:
Jer 32:39 And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:
Jer 32:40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

I have thanked God a many of times for His fear in my heart. I know that the beginning of wisdom is to fear the Lord. It also says that the fear of the Lord is to depart from evil. I believe that we are kept by the power of God.

I believe with all my heart that Christ has saved me forever. I know that if his fear was not in my heart then I would have wander away from Him and already gone back into a life of sin. I don’t plan on loosing my salvation nor am I working for my salvation. I am diligently making my calling and election sure. I am working out my salvation with fear and trembling. I am taking heed to the warnings of Jesus and the apostles. I am striving to please Him and keep his commandments.

2 Corinthians 5:9-11 (KJV) 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

I pray, I mean I fear, I mean I pray that his fear will always be in my heart so that I will never depart from Him. I don’t trust in mine own heart lest I be a fool. When the bible tells me to abide in Him or to keep yourself in the love of God then His fear kicks and thank the Lord I take heed to this.

When the scripture says in Galatians 5:19-21 (KJV) 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

I understand that if his fear was not in my heart and his spirit was not in me causing me to walk in his way then I would be fulfilling the lusts of the flesh. He says for us to be filled with the spirit and to walk in the spirit and we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

Brother, if he was not living in me making me a new creature and causing me to bring forth fruit of a Christian then I would not be one of His people. It is the fear of God that teaches me not to depart from the Lord. It is the fear of God that teaches me to not trust in myself or any other type of security other than abiding in Christ. It is also the fear of God that teaches me that God is no respecter of persons and that I can’t trust in the belief that I have eternal security no matter what but that I must only trust in Christ and his power to keep me out of sin and his ability in me to bring forth fruit pleasing unto God.

Finally I believe that He has saved me forever and I am looking forward to seeing Him on that day. So I believe that Christ living in me gives me eternal security but I also believe that it is also on the condition that I continually surrender my trust to his everlasting covenant and will for my life. I do not believe that believing in OSAS will get you into heaven but once you are saved by believing in Christ, then always believe in Christ and He will get you to heaven.

...the problem is not that OSAS is false but that men have taught it in such a careless manner so as to convince men of a certainty of salvation as opposed to encouraging them in the hope of salvation.

Amen.

Old_Joe,

May God bless you.

Old_Joe wrote:

Again, you won't admit that you are ungodly, this proves you to be of the type whom Enoch Prophesied of. Christ will convince you of this fact when He returns with His saints, but by then it will be too late.....

Jude 14-15...Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Old Joe

It pains me to read this. Why would a brother condemn another brother? The scriptures teach us to speak the truth in Love.

Jesus died for the ungodly but he lives in the righteous. Jesus does not live in the unregenerate but in those who are born of God. He does not call us ungodly but we are called saints.

He was delivered for our offenses but raised again for our justification. We believe that he died for our sins and that we died with Him. He lives in us and makes us righteous. He does not live in the ungodly. He is coming back to exercise judgment upon the ungodly. This is what he is saying in the passage in Jude that you stated but he is coming back to be admired in his saints.

Romans 8:31-39 (KJV) 31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

We are not to accuse our brother nor condemn our brother. The bible says that the accuser of the brethren is Satan.

Lysa we don't believe the say a prayer and recieve Jesus and you will be saved, we our talking of truly converted christians who have been convicted of their sin and repented and trusted jesus fully, i don't believe in the modern day preaching and say this prayer and your saved at all and to single eternal security people on that one is just not right, see the biggest problem with conditional security from most of the defenders of it they believe if we commit certain sins or continue in our sins without repentance that we can lose our salvation and my point is, when did everything depend on us to be saved, why is it our works now and not what Jesus did, so now we our saying and talking of a works salvation in which we must do something to inherit eternal life which is complete heresy. The only way we our justified is by the blood of Jesus christ and because of his righteousness, i have said that only way you could lose your salvation after being born again if it may be possible is if you lose your faith in Christ, but again we must agree that God gives us saving faith, god does the convicting, gives us the want to believe, god finishes the good work in us not us. Most conditional people our talking of a works salvation that depends on them obeying the holy spirit till the end, paul affirms in many scriptures that God will work and finish that to prove that his new covenant won't fail, exactly what that great verse in jeremiah does teach which was posted earlier. If we have to post the verses that you think our clarifying conditional security and we will try our best to give you a proper understanding of it.

Old_Joe wrote:

rbanks wrote:
It pains me to read this. Why would a brother condemn another brother?

Maybe you should explain exactly why you are certain we are both brothers.

Old Joe

Unless you are referring to yourself you should not make such assumptions, you are not to judge anthers salvation, this judgment belongs to Jesus alone.

Joh 5:22 For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,

Judge not, that you be not judged —Matthew 7:1

Jesus’ instructions with regard to judging others is very simply put; He says, "Don’t." The average Christian is the most piercingly critical individual known. Criticism is one of the ordinary activities of people, but in the spiritual realm nothing is accomplished by it. The effect of criticism is the dividing up of the strengths of the one being criticized. The Holy Spirit is the only one in the proper position to criticize, and He alone is able to show what is wrong without hurting and wounding. It is impossible to enter into fellowship with God when you are in a critical mood. Criticism serves to make you harsh, vindictive, and cruel, and leaves you with the soothing and flattering idea that you are somehow superior to others. Jesus says that as His disciple you should cultivate a temperament that is never critical. This will not happen quickly but must be developed over a span of time. You must constantly beware of anything that causes you to think of yourself as a superior person.

There is no escaping the penetrating search of my life by Jesus. If I see the little speck in your eye, it means that I have a plank of timber in my own (see Matthew 7:3-5 ). Every wrong thing that I see in you, God finds in me. Every time I judge, I condemn myself (see Romans 2:17-24 ). Stop having a measuring stick for other people. There is always at least one more fact, which we know nothing about, in every person’s situation. The first thing God does is to give us a thorough spiritual cleaning. After that, there is no possibility of pride remaining in us. I have never met a person I could despair of, or lose all hope for, after discerning what lies in me apart from the grace of God.

Chambers

You hit the nail right on the head Bible1985. Well done!

In my studies I came upon these acronyms:

T - Total Depravity . . . . . . . . . .L - Limited Depravity
U - Unconditional Election . . . . .I - I elect God
L - Limited Atonement . . . . . . . L - Limitless Atonement
I - Irresistible Grace . . . . . . . . A - Arrestible Grace
P - Preservation of the Saints . .C - Carnal Security

LILAC is a false presumption which our stance of conditional security neither endorses nor defends. So if there is to be any "nail hitting" let it be the one we have believed and not your biased opinions; besides being of a critical spirit that is slander.

the biggest problem with conditional security from most of the defenders of it they believe if we commit certain sins or continue in our sins without repentance that we can lose our salvation and my point is, when did everything depend on us to be saved, why is it our works now and not what Jesus did, so now we our saying and talking of a works salvation in which we must do something to inherit eternal life which is complete heresy.

As I have said before (I find myself having to repeat a lot here), do not confuse salvation with sanctification.

The following link is,
[url=http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/wesley.htm][b]Perseverance Of The Saints [/b]by John Wesley[/url]

[b]Description:[/b] This is reprinted from [i]Fundamental Christian Theology: A Systematic Theology[/i], A. M. Hills (C. J. Kinne), 1931, Vol. II, pp. 266-281 . . . On this subject (conditional security) we shall use a somewhat modified argument of John Wesley, which is unanswerable, and further supplement it by arguments of our own.

[u]Here is an excerpt:[/u]
[b]VI.[/b]\tThose who 'see the light of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ,' and have been 'made partakers of the Holy Ghost,' of the witness and fruits of the Spirit, may nevertheless so fall from God as to perish everlastingly. For thus saith the inspired writer to the Hebrews: 'It is impossible for those who were once enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, if they shall fall away (and then fell away -- New Version) to renew them again to repentance seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame (Heb. 6:4-6). Must not every unprejudiced person see the expressions here used are so strong and clear, that they cannot, without gross and palpable wresting, be understood of any but true believers?

[b]1.[/b] They "were once enlightened," -- an expression familiar with the apostle Paul, and never applied by him to any but believers. So, "The God of our Lord Jesus Christ give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation; the eyes of your understanding being enlightened, that ye may know what is the hope of His calling, and what is the exceeding greatness of His power to usward that believe" (Eph. 1:17-19). So again, "God who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined into our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ" (2 Cor. 4:6). This is a light which no unbelievers have. They are utter strangers to such enlightening. "The God of this world hath blinded the minds of them who believe not, lest the light of the glorious Gospel of Christ should shine unto them" (verse 4).

[b]2.[/b] "They had tasted of the heavenly gift (emphatically so-called), and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost." So St. Peter likewise couples them together: "Be baptized for the remission of sins and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost" (Acts 2:38), whereby the love of God was shed abroad in their hearts, with all other fruits of the Spirit. Yea, it is remarkable that our Lord Himself, in His grand commission to St. Paul (to which the apostle probably alludes in these words) comprises all these three particulars: "I send thee to open their eyes, and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God (here contracted into that one expression, "they were enlightened"), that they may receive forgiveness of sins ("the heavenly gift") and "an inheritance among them that are sanctified" (Acts 26:18); which are made "partakers of the Holy Ghost," of all the sanctifying influences of the Spirit."

The expression, "They tasted of the heavenly gift," is taken from the Psalmist: "Taste and see that the Lord is good" (Ps. 34:8). As if he had said, Be ye as assured of his love as of anything you see with your eyes; and let the assurance thereof be sweet to your soul as honey is to your tongue. And yet those who had been thus "enlightened," had "tasted" this "gift," and been thus "partakers of the Holy Ghost," so "fell away," that it was "impossible to renew them again to repentance."

[b]Objection:[/b] "But the Apostle only makes a supposition: 'If they shall fall away.' "

[b]Answer:[/b] "The Apostle makes no supposition at all. There is no 'if ' in the original. The words are [i]kai parapesontas[/i] -- that is, in plain English, 'It is impossible to renew again unto repentance, those who were once enlightened, "and have fallen away"; therefore they must perish everlastingly.' "

[b]Objection:[/b] "But if so, then farewell all my comfort!"

[b]Answer:[/b] "Then your comfort depends on a poor foundation. My comfort stands, not on any opinion, either that a believer can, or cannot fall away, not on the remembrance of anything wrought in me yesterday; but on what is today; on my present knowledge of God in Christ, reconciling me to Himself; on my now beholding the light of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ; walking in the light as He is in the light, and having fellowship with the Father and with the Son. My comfort is that through grace I now believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and that His Spirit doth bear witness with my spirit that I am a child of God. I take comfort in this, and this only, that I see Jesus at the right hand of God; that I personally for myself, and not for another, have a hope full of immortality; that I feel the love of God shed abroad in my heart, being crucified to the world, and the world crucified to me. My rejoicing is this, the testimony of my conscience, that in simplicity and Godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God I have my conversation in this world.

Go and find, if you can, a more solid joy, a more blissful comfort, on this side of heaven. But this comfort is not shaken, be that opinion, true or false, whether the saints in general can, or cannot fall. If you take up with any other comfort short of this, you lean on the staff of a broken reed, which not only will not bear your weight, but will enter into your hand and pierce you.

Dear Brother hmmhmm,

As Saints we must question but, as I see it, in a prescribed manner.

[b][size=small][color=6600FF][font=Verdana]John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.[/font][/color][/size][/b]

[b][size=small][color=6600FF][font=Verdana]Revelations 2:2 . . . . and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars. . .[/font][/color][/size][/b]

Simply because Old Joe has not couched his 'questioning' in soft phrases does not mean his intent is anything but for the best for the questionee and the rest of us here.

At this point in this 'Ben Hur' of a thread, I can no longer keep track of who is who BUT I have gained much insight and reassurance.

Old Joe and I both are new here and if/when we question something/someone, that does not in any way diminish our right to question. I can see that there are very ruffled feathers here and for that I am sad. I do not believe, for one second that was done with malicious intent. Perhaps it may have been intended in a "righteous judgment" way. If any of these questions had been asked by a member of long standing they may not have been as provoking. This is similar to our President Elect going to great lengths to hide the information pertaining his 'Natural Born Citizen' status. Multiple lawyers are employed at great cost to block us from finding out, when simply showing the "true" Birth Certificate would stop all the questions. (If anyone does not know about the Natural Born issue PM me or Google)

It is not difficult. We give witness often, I confess Jesus is my Lord, I can do nothing good without Him. He is very God. He is the light of my life and I long to share this with others that they may also have this prize, I do not want to bury my talent. From what I have seen on this forum most feel the same way. That is one of the reasons I have stayed.

Kindest regards,
white stone

Hi again everyone,

I wanted to offer a few thoughts more here if I could.

About the passage in Jeremiah 32:40 and this topic in general:

I think that we need to be carefull in making absolute statements about things that we may not be able to reconcile ourselves, apart from in the exact language in the Bible(2Pet 1:20-21), especially if we insist that others hold to them.

I think also that we need to look to the words of the Lord Jesus and His Apostles for explanation of the things that were written before in the prophets and elsewhere, and for the words and understanding of the New Covenant.(John 17:6-8,20, Matthew 13:52).

So then, if Paul the Apostle was aware of the passage in Jeremiah, he also wrote the words in Romans 11:18-21.

Or if we read the next verse in Jeremiah, we also read Rev 3:14-19.

I think that we should be especially careful in considering the idea that we are free to suggest that the words and warnings of the Apostles can be taken in any way and to any persons [b]except in the way in which they were given[/b].

If they did not add anything else to them, can it be safe if we(1Cor 14:36)?

I have been off from work this week and so I have been taking some long walks in the morning. Every day I have been going the same way up and back. Yesturday as I was going back and came to a certain street, I noticed that a police car had pulled over to the side of the road and nearby a fire hydrant was on the ground and water was gushing out into the streets. I wondered if they were coming to fix it since it was so much water.

Today on the way home, a bit further up from that street, I noticed on the ground what looked like some children had been writting with chalk. Someone had written "Mt. Sinai", I think in at least two places. I thought that was interesting and kept going. As I came to that other street today I noticed a news truck nearby and some other large vehicles. Coming around the corner i was very surprised to see a city truck from the water department sunk halfway into the ground!

Appearantly the ground underneath it had collasped.

It was an amazing sight.

Fortunatley I asked the workers nearby and they said noone was hurt.

[i]EDIT(02 Jan 2009) There is a need for a correction to something written above: where it says that someone had written "Mt Sinai" on the ground, this is not correct. After going by this same area today, I realised that the person(s) had not written 'Mt.' as I had said, and [b]also[/b] they did not spell the other word 'Sinai' but something like 'Sianai' or something similar. I appologise for misrelating the details. I thought this was important to mention because it may be that the writting there had no reference to the Biblical mount Sinai as was suggested by what I had said. Also, it looks like they were able to remove the truck :)[/i]

Hi everyone,

Old_Joe,

About this,

"One is an abomination to be wrong on either side of this verse.

Prov 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the Lord."

and...

"His reference to us both as brothers is a judgment that both of us have salvation. At this point I don't believe he knows either of us well enough to make that determination."

In another thread, in answer to a question that someone asked about passages from the book of James, you said

James 5:19-20 is dealing with the conversion (salvation) of sinners. It is in regards to one who belongs to the visible church, seemingly performing the works of God, yet not from a renewed principle in their heart, for which Joash is a good type. Under the instruction of Jehoiada, he rebuilt the temple (outward visible manifestations) while leaving the inside empty of its ornaments (dead in heart).

James begins those verses by saying,

[b] Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth...[/b]

Do you mean to say that James was an abomination for saying that to [b]sinners[/b], as you called them?

This qoute above was taken from [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=26561&forum=35&6]here[/url]

Chris

Old_Joe wrote:

To flippantly consider everyone as a brother is a greater error than to question someone's salvation. In the former case you coddle them to hell, in the latter case you might at least wake them up. The only ones who take offense at having their salvation questioned are those who do not have it.

Old Joe

OK, so I call two certain individuals on SI brothers and I am flippantly considering everyone as a brother. Also, who is taking offense at having their salvation questioned?

OK then, I am sorry for assuming that you were a brother because I really don't know you. I will be praying for you though and I really do hope you will be saved, if you are not.

I know that it will be terrible for you if you are being a hypocrite. You have surely written a lot Old_Joe and seem to know more than others on here. I sure do hope you realized, that to teach others, you will be judged more severely. I hope that you also realized that the same measure you use to others will come right back to you.

Oh, enough said, because who am I to tell you anything, because you don't know me either.

I sure do hope their are a lot of true brothers and sisters on here that are praying for a genuine revival.

If there is anyone else on here who thinks I shouldn't call people on SI brothers please let me know.

Grace to all!

White_Stone wrote:
Dear Brother hmmhmm,

As Saints we must question but, as I see it, in a prescribed manner.

[b][size=small][color=6600FF][font=Verdana]John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.[/font][/color][/size][/b]

[b][size=small][color=6600FF][font=Verdana]Revelations 2:2 . . . . and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars. . .[/font][/color][/size][/b]

Simply because Old Joe has not couched his 'questioning' in soft phrases does not mean his intent is anything but for the best for the questionee and the rest of us here.

At this point in this 'Ben Hur' of a thread, I can no longer keep track of who is who BUT I have gained much insight and reassurance.

Old Joe and I both are new here and if/when we question something/someone, that does not in any way diminish our right to question. I can see that there are very ruffled feathers here and for that I am sad. I do not believe, for one second that was done with malicious intent. Perhaps it may have been intended in a "righteous judgment" way. If any of these questions had been asked by a member of long standing they may not have been as provoking. This is similar to our President Elect going to great lengths to hide the information pertaining his 'Natural Born Citizen' status. Multiple lawyers are employed at great cost to block us from finding out, when simply showing the "true" Birth Certificate would stop all the questions. (If anyone does not know about the Natural Born issue PM me or Google)

It is not difficult. We give witness often, I confess Jesus is my Lord, I can do nothing good without Him. He is very God. He is the light of my life and I long to share this with others that they may also have this prize, I do not want to bury my talent. From what I have seen on this forum most feel the same way. That is one of the reasons I have stayed.

Kindest regards,
white stone

Well the words judgment and judgment are same in the english bible, but in the greek it is two different words. And we are called to try things, prophesy and doctrines and teachings.

But never do we judge another's salvation, this judgment alone is Gods. And judging righteous judgment are not same as this in the greek.

[i] Krisis - Heaven or Hell

There is a kind of judging that we are not called to do. The Greek word is krisis.

For not even the father judges anyone, but He has given all judgement [krisis] to the Son (John 5:22).

The ultimate determination of heaven and hell belongs to the Lord alone. We never krisis. We are forbidden to krisis.

Krites - The Judge of All

But you have come to the general assembly and church of the first born who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge [krites] of all, and to the spirits of righteous men made perfect (Hebrews 12:23).

God is the judge of all. Yes, there are people who are called to judge, but God is the ultimate Judge of us all.

Hupo-Krites - Pharisees

If we are going to stand up and confront other people in the church about something being wrong, we had better make sure we are not guilty of the same thing, because that is another kind of judging we are forbidden to do.

Here the prefix hupo is added to krites, giving us the English word "hypocrites."

This is what Jesus meant when he said, Do not judge lest you be judged. For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.

And why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?

Or how can you say to your brother, "Let me take the speck out of your eye," and behold, the log is in your own eye?

You hypocrite [hupokrites], first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye (Matthew 7:1-5).

We do not krites and we especially do not hupokrites.

Kritikos - To Discern

For the Word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge [kritikos] the thoughts and intentions of the heart (Hebrews 4:12).

Cells called erythrocytes are stored in the red marrow of big bones, like the femur and the tibia. On the outside there is the bone and on the inside there is the marrow. But in between there is an area where, even with a microscope, it is very difficult to tellwhere the bone ends and where the marrow begins.

The Bible says that the relationship between soul and spirit is like that. Take prophecy: Was that from someone's imagination, or was it God's Spirit speaking through their spirit? It is very difficult to tell the difference.

Man is a three-dimensional being. You can separate a body from a soul; but you cannot easily tell where the soul ends and the spirit begins.

When people say, "The Lord showed me this" and "God told me that," it is difficult to know if it is someone's imagination or God's Spirit speaking to their spirit. The mind is a good servant, but a dangerous master. Many people overtly demonic, but they are prophesying from the futility of their own mind.

We are called to kritikos -- to discern between the soulish and the spiritual. The Word of God enables us to separate the bone from the marrow, the spiritual from the purely soulish.

Summary

Judge not? What does the Bible say?

1. We never judge from our opinions.

2. We are commanded to anakrino -- we always seek to discern: "Is this of God, or is it of the flesh,or of the devil?"

3. We are commanded to diakrino -- to render a decision as to whether something is morally right or wrong.

4. We do not krisis -- the Lord alone decides who goes to heaven and who goes to hell.

5. We are sometimes appointed to krites -- but we are to remember that the Lord is the Judge of all, and we are to judge righteously.

6. We never, ever, hupo-krites -- before we take a speck out of our brother's eye, we make sure we do not have the same speck in our own eye.

7. We always kritikos -- we draw on the Word of God to discern between the things of the soul and the things of the spirit[/i]

[url=http://www.moriel.org/articles/sermons/judge_not.htm]Judge not[/url]

Dear DeepThinker,

My point for even getting into this mix was my first post which led to my post to you.

I will admit that I do not know everything (:-D) and boG summed it up nicely (Thanks boG!)...

boG wrote:
the problem is not that OSAS is false but that men have taught it in such a careless manner so as to convince men of a certainty of salvation as opposed to encouraging them in the hope of salvation

Back to your post to me! I apologize for not making my point in my post to you more clear. I totally agree with the Scripture you gave - that the Lord adds daily to the church such as should be saved; but you didn't tell me what you thought of my post, like how convenient it is to always have an out for your belief or the OSAS belief and say, "Well, they truly didn't KNOW or LOVE the Lord.... is why they weren't saved." [And I still believe that conveniently believing that denies the Word in Acts 2.21 "whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved."]

This is just my 2 cents but let me ask you this.... Why does God need an out? If you believe this and say God has saved them, then by-joe stand by your belief and believe that God has indeed saved them to the uttermost no matter if they supposedly "love" Him enough or not because only God can judge a person's heart of what is enough.

In the midst of threads like this it is good to meditate on an encouraging exhortation that calls for immediate application. Let us walk with God by casting ourselves completely upon the mercy of God.

The seeds of every wickedness

(J. C. Ryle, "The Gospel of Mark" 1857)

"But Peter insisted emphatically, 'Even if I
have to die with You, I will never disown You!'
And all the others vowed the same." Mark 14:31

See how much ignorant self confidence may
sometimes be found in the hearts of Christians.
The apostle Peter could not think it possible that
he could ever deny his Lord. And he did not stand
alone in his confidence. The other disciples were
of the same opinion. "And all the others vowed
the same."

Yet what did all this confident boasting come to?

Twelve hours did not pass away before all the
disciples forsook our Lord and fled. Their loud
professions were all forgotten. The present
danger swept all their promises of fidelity clean
away. So little do we know how we shall act in
any particular position—until we are placed in it!

Let us learn to pray for humility. "Pride goes before
destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall."

There is far more wickedness in all our hearts,
than we know. We never can tell how far we might
fall—if once placed in temptation. There is no degree
of sin into which the greatest saint may not run—if he
is not held up by the grace of God, and if he does not
watch and pray.

The seeds of every wickedness lie hidden in
our hearts! They only need the convenient season
to spring forth into a mischievous vitality. "Let him
that thinks he stands take heed lest he fall." "He
who trusts his own heart is a fool.'' Let our daily
prayer be, "Hold me up—and I shall be safe!"

Sorry for back tracking but I believe this is pertinent to your whole discussion....

Brother Abe wrote way back....

Quote:
The Lord gave me a verse in Psalm 23 a few years ago to comfort me when I was fearing that I might lose my salvation and perish in the end. "Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD forever." (Psa 23:6) Oh, that word "surely" became a precious promise to my weary soul in those dark days of despair.

I rejoice in your testimony of how God spoke to you.

Secondly...Have you considered that God spoke these very words to David for the same reason?

Thirdly...what might this mean in terms of the doctrines we try to support?

In Christ
Jeff

[b][size=small][color=0033FF][font=Verdana]Everyone that posts here (me included) is attempting to teach at some level and ought to receive 'greater condemnation' than an average old Joe who just keeps to himself. [/font][/color][/size][/b]

[size=xx-small]Change is uncomfortable.[/size]
[size=x-small]Change of viewpoints is difficult.[/size]
[size=small]Change of beliefs the hardest to do.[/size]
[size=x-small]Messengers that carry the instruments of change are often attacked![/size]

Face it, people do not like change. Most men hate it when their wives rearrange the furniture. It is disturbing when someone close to you changes because you are forced to view them in a different light and that light reflects back on yourself and you must re-examine your own values.

The majority of people, once they establish a working set of values, do not practice self-examination unless it is forced upon them (this is where accidents are often blessings).

Old Joe never said an unkind word but he did provoke deep introspection. I believe this is what made this thread a mine field, for some a gold mine, for others landmines.

It is my pleasure to have participated in this adventure. Lord willing, in this coming new year we will all enjoy growing together for Jesus.

Kindest regards,
white stone

Old_Joe,

The Lord Jesus told His followers to bless those that curse them(Mat 5:44, Luke 6:28).

I said this in regard to what you spoke against me before.

I do still wish that God would bless you.

I [b]did not[/b] ask that He would bless your actions here though.

After I first challeneged your words in this thread, I wrote to your privately, asking you to forgive me if I had wronged you in anyway. This is what I wrote to you:

"I wanted to ask you to please forgive me if during our recent discussions I have wronged you in any way. I know that on my part I have responded to you very sharply and pointedly.

I want you to know that I wish you no ill or bad feelings.

I hope that whatever wrong there may be between us on my part can be made right through the Lord Jesus.

I wish you love and peace and thank you for reading this,

Chris"

I wanted to give you the opportunity to show me where I may have wronged you. I did not, and still do not trust that I am aware of all of the ways in which my own actions are wrong, either to others or before God(Acts 24:16).

Whatever you wish to continue to do to me here, I still wish that God will bless you Old_Joe.

Chris

ChrisJD,

I wouldn’t worry about offending Old_Joe. He is a tough Old_Joe. I could say that he is very opinionated. He just picks out what he wants to talk about and then tries to get others to see what he wants them to see. Some things are hard to follow because he is all over the place like a loose cannon sometimes. Anyway, this is what I have gathered from this thread. If I am wrong about this Old_Joe, then I know you will let me know.

I could also say that he is not as sensitive to how he says things to others as you are. Some people are more sensitive than others. So please don’t let Old_Joe’s comments to you, bother you, but seek the Lord and trust in Him. The bible says in 1Jo 3:20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
1Jo 3:21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.

I think we all could learn a lesson that we shouldn’t let everything that people write be taken to heart. The bible says that as his people, let no man teach you, because, we that are in the truth know the truth and do not need for man to teach us. It is the anointing within us that teaches us. We are not to let any one condemn us, but let the Lord convict us, and we are to walk in fellowship with God.

Grace to you all!

Sorry for back tracking but I believe this is pertinent to your whole discussion.... Brother Abe wrote way back.... Quote: The Lord gave me a verse in Psalm 23 a few years ago to comfort me when I was fearing that I might lose my salvation and perish in the end. "Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD forever." (Psa 23:6) Oh, that word "surely" became a precious promise to my weary soul in those dark days of despair. I rejoice in your testimony of how God spoke to you. Secondly...Have you considered that God spoke these very words to David for the same reason? Thirdly...what might this mean in terms of the doctrines we try to support? In Christ Jeff

It's comforting that a man of God like David needed precious promises like these to strengthen his Faith in God. How much more do I need these promises? Brethren, let us lay hold on these precious promises and exhort each other to trust in God to be the author and finisher of our Faith. May the Lord grant us an increasing Fear of God.

Jesus never told his disciples to fear death or fear hell. He said "Fear Him" who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. The fear of the Lord is to hate evil... it is to hate sinning against our beautiful precious Saviour.

The Fear of death and the fear of going to hell will not produce hatred towards sin. Rather, it produces sin... because we are not serving God by trusting in his redemption promises for His people. If we fear that we might end up on hell it proves that we presently do not have assurance nor are we presently trusting in the promises of God. This is a very serious matter.

I have some questions and exhortation for those who believe that a born again believer might end up in hell:

Do you have assurance that you will endure unto the end? Do you have assurance that God will save you and keep you in the fear of the LORD all the days of your life?

If you have the hope of eternal life that brings purity of heart(1jn 3:1-3), you must have assurance of these truths... for God has promised.

If you do not have assurance of these promises... then you need to examine yourself and see if you are in the Faith, because Faith is the assurance of things hoped for. (read Heb 11)

Thirdly...what might this mean in terms of the doctrines we try to support?

I'm not sure how to answer this question, because there are many specific doctrines which we are commanded to teach and preach (specifically the whole counsel of God). We should support the whole counsel of God. Without Faith it is impossible to please God. There are many truths that we can try to support... however, it is vain and sinful if we do not trust in the promises of God.

-Abraham

EDIT: sentence structure and grammar check

Abe_Juliot,

You said,

If we fear that we might end up on hell it proves that we presently do not have assurance nor are we presently trusting in the promises of God.

The Apostle Paul wrote:

"Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, [i]take heed[/i] lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [i]his[/i] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."

- Romans 11:20-22(KJV)

Abe_Juliot,

Sorry about the second post here,

About this, I don't understand:

"Jesus never told his disciples to fear death or fear hell. He said "Fear Him" who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

[b]Why[/b] are we told to fear God there.

[Edit addition:

The Apostle Paul wrote: "Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." - Romans 11:20-22(KJV)

I'm not sure what you are implying with this scripture. I don't believe God is teaching us to Fear death. The context is rebuking pride and unbelief. Paul is exhorting us to Fear God becaue Salvation is of the Lord and not by the will and running of the carnal mind.

Edit end.]

I don't fear falling away nor do I fear that God will stop working in me both to will and do of His good pleasure. I fear God who is able cast my soul and body into hell. That is big difference. He is the one who holds me up and strengthens me by His gift of Faith and grace. I fear Him and I don't want to sin against my beautiful Savior. By the grace of God I no longer fear death nor do I fear that I might end up in Hell, ...because God has become my Salvation. I love him because he first loved me. Amen.

-Abraham

Hi Abe_Juliot,

I do not mean to imply anything. I am comparing your words here with what Paul the Apostle wrote.

I don't find any agreement with what you said and what he wrote.

You claimed that

If we fear that we might end up on hell it proves that we presently do not have assurance nor are we presently trusting in the promises of God.

But Paul the Apostle wrote what he did there to people that he said [i]stood by faith[/i].

I believe your words are a contradiction to the scripture.

[i]Edited to correct spelling[/i]

"Jesus never told his disciples to fear death or fear hell. He said "Fear Him" who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Why are we told to fear God there.

I would emphasis that we are to Fear displeasing God because we love Him and we don't want to hate our Holy Savior Jesus.

This is not the same as fear the displeasure of God because we don't want to get burned by the flames of Hell. It is good for sinner to shaken out of the comforts of their sin with the terrors of the wrath of God. But, the Child of God has a different motive when He takes heed to this warning. The Child of God wants to persevere in a life of Holiness and purity for the glory of God and for the love of the Spirit. Whereas the sinner only wants to preserve His carnal mind and escape the flames of hell as the Rich man did in Luke 16.

May our conversation stay in fields of rich edification. -Abraham

Edit: spell check

Hi again Abe_Juliot,

I think that our conversation should stay as close to what God has said and as far away from our opinion as possible.

You said before,

"Jesus never told his disciples to fear death or fear hell..."

I asked you then why Jesus told His followers to fear God.

Not why we think it is good. Why He said to.

[i]Edited to correct spelling[/i]

But Paul the Apostle wrote what he did there to people that he said stood by faith. I believe your words are a contradiction to the scripture.

There are many more warning like this one which are clearly directed towards believers. Warnings as well as promises are to be taken heed to. The Warnings are a means of God preserving those who are born of God. The Promises are a means of strengthening those who are born of God. True Faith (which worketh by love) takes heed to both gospel warnings and gospel promises. Let us take heed to the warning that God gives and let us take heed His promises.

Dear friend, trust in the promise of God and take heed to His warnings. Put your confidence in God for He is the author and finisher of our faith. Let no confidence in the sufficiency of your will and running. Amen dear brother? Can we find unity here.

"And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me." (Jer 32:40)

"We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not." (1 Jn 5:18)

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." (Jn 10:27-29)

"Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Rom 8:37-39)

-Abraham

Edit: sentence structure

You said before, "Jesus never told his disciples to fear death or fear hell..." I asked you then why Jesus told His followers to fear God. Not why we think it is good. Why He said to.

One of the worst things about hell is not the flames or the torments. One of the worst things about hell is that you will forever be enslaved to a heart that hates God. You should fear displeasing the one whom is worthy of your love. Everlasting enslavement to Sin is the worst thing about hell and we should Fear sinning against God. The Fear of the LORD is to hate evil and depart from it. If you don't hate evil, you cannot depart from it. Fearing flames and death is not what God is asking for when He calls us to Fear Him.

George Whitefield said this, "Our sorrow and grief for sin, must not spring merely from a fear of wrath; for if we have no other ground but that, it proceeds from self-love, and not from any love to God; and if love to God is not the chief motive of your repentance, your repentance is in vain, and not to be esteemed true."(quoted from Whitefield Gold)

Charles Spurgeon said this, "We are also to preach the motives of repentance- that men may not repent from mere fear of Hell, but they must repent of sin itself. Every thief is sorry when he has to go to prison; every murderer is sorry when the noose is about his neck. The sinner must repent, not because of the punishment of sin, but because his sin is sin against a pardoning God, sin against a bleeding Savior, sin against a holy Law, sin against a tender gospel. The true penitent repents of sin against God, and he would do so even if there were no punishment. When he is forgiven, he repents of sin more than ever, for he sees more clearly than ever the wickedness of offending so gracious a God." (quoted from Spurgeon Gold)

-Abraham

Hi again Abe_Juliot,

You said before,

"Jesus never told his disciples to fear death or fear hell..."

I asked you then [b]why Jesus told His followers to fear God[/b].

Not George Whitefield or Charles Spurgeon, or anyone else.

I believe I answered your question and you overlooked what I wrote. I don't want to discuss this with you if you are going to be ignorant of my responses. Good night and may the Lord bless you. -Abraham

Hi Abe_Juliot, thank you for your patience with me.

I don't want to [b]discuss[/b] this with you at all. I asked you why the Lord Jesus Christ, in that passage, said to fear God.

I wanted to be clear what the Lord Jesus had said.

Old_Joe, you said,

They are to 'fear' to bring about their sanctification, they are told to 'fear not' because they ARE justified.

Those are more of your words.

I did not ask you for them. I did ask Abe_Juliot what the Lord Jesus said.

For clarification here,

Abe_Juliot said,

Jesus never told his disciples to fear death or fear hell. He said "Fear Him" who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

I asked why the Lord Jesus told His disciples to fear God there, that is, what reason He gave.

Chris,

We must examine the rest of Scriptures to understand what fearing God means.

Hebrews 2:15 - "and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death."

The writer states that believers are free from the fear of death. I believe if you search the Scriptures, you will that when a person is described as a "God-fearer", it means that they have respect, reverence, and awe for Him and His commandments, which I believe is why Jesus is commanding his disciples to fear God.

You are assuming what Jesus means by "fear God" and what you mean by "fear God" are the same thing, which I would humbly suggest is not true.

With care in Christ,
Taylor

Hi Taylor,

About this,

You are assuming what Jesus means by "fear God" and what you mean by "fear God" are the same thing, which I would humbly suggest is not true.

I don't believe that I'm assuming anything. I'm comparing what was claimed by someone else in this thread with what the Lord Jesus said, and asking what reason He gave his disciples to fear God.

..it means that they have respect, reverence, and awe for Him and His commandments,...

But not His warnings?

But not His warnings?

Sure, his warnings as well.

However, when we take heed to those warnings, including examining our self, and do we find that the fruit of the Spirit is present in our life; that God is working in us both to will and do of His good pleasure; that we love the brethren; and that we have a love of the truth? Of course, all of these must be examined in a Biblical fashion.

If we do find these things to be true, then we rejoice in the promises of God that he will preserve his people. If we do not find them to be true, then we should flee to Christ for salvation.

However, there is no Biblical precedent that the believer [b]who is bringing forth fruit consistent with his profession[/b] should fear death and hell. Actually, we are called to look forward to our internal inheritance and to not fear death.

With care in Christ,
Taylor

Hi again Taylor,

However, when we take heed to those warnings...

...If we do not find them to be true, then we should flee to Christ for salvation.

Paul writes to those in Romans 11:20-22 that he says [i]stood by faith[/i] and he writes to Timothy telling him to [i]take heed[/i](1 Ti 4:16). And James writes to the [i]brethren[/i] in James 1:13-16.

I think that we need to leave the warnings in the scripture in the words they were written.

Old_Joe,

So then as expected, you weren't really interested in learning the answer, just trying to cause trouble.

I'm very sorry that you feel this way. I did ask specifically, I think several times, to consider specifically what the Lord Jesus said.

I still wish for your best,

Chris

Chris,

[b]Romans 11:20-22[/b] - Yes, I agree those who manifest themselves as not having faith should fear death and hell. Paul says the branches were cut off because of unbelief. I agree, unbelievers should fear death and hell.

[b]1 Tim 4:16[/b] - It states to watch your life and doctrine closely. For by doing so, you will save both yourself and your hearers. Again, I agree, those who maintain wicked doctrines and wicked lives should fear death and hell. However, it says "take heed", the word "fear" is not in this verse. Paul instructs Timothy to take special care to maintain pure doctrine and living. I agree, we should all examine our doctrine and life. However, again, if they are not found ungodly, there is no Biblical precedent for fearing death and hell.

[b]James 1:13-16[/b] - James states not to be deceived about the nature of temptation. Nothing about fearing death and hell.

I understand that all of these verses state that those who maintain wicked doctrines and wicked lives should fear death and hell. I also understand that those who profess faith should take heed and examine their lives. However, if, upon searching the Scriptures, they find they do not manifest the things these passages warn against, but instead manifest genuine fruit and faith, there is no Scripture precedent that those believers should fear death and hell.

[b]As a follow up question[/b], can you point us to an example in the New Testament of a believer who feared death and hell? I see Peter talk about looking forward to an inheritance that fadeth not away reserved in heaven for us; I see Paul knowing to live in Christ and to die is gain; however, I can't find the fear of death and hell you speak of amongst genuine believers, much less can I find it encouraged. If one had a consistent fear of death and hell, it would mean they had a consistent uncertainty of their eternal state, which none of the Apostles or saints seem to be uncertain about in the Holy Scriptures.

With care in Christ,
Taylor

Hi Taylor,

About this,

"I can't find the fear of death and hell you speak of amongst genuine believers,..."

What exactly are you refering to, [b]that I spoke of[/b]?

Jesus never told his disciples to fear death or fear hell. He said "Fear Him" who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

I have asked here several times what reason the Lord Jesus gave His disciples to fear God.

Hi again Taylor,

About the passages in Romans, Timothy and James, I gave those here in response to your having said:

"If we do not find them to be true, then we should flee to Christ for salvation."

These passages were written to people who are called believers, and having salvation. I find in none of them an exhortation [b]to examine their lives to see if they were saved[/b]. They are not written to people who, as you put it, "maintain wicked doctrines and wicked lives."

Gal 5:15If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

This is no joke!

Brothers, calm down please, all of you, this one can't be won, you have long passed the bounds of beneficial discourse, just leave it.

:-(
_________________________________________________

Brother Abe wrote:

I'm not sure how to answer this question, because there are many specific doctrines which we are commanded to teach and preach (specifically the whole counsel of God). We should support the whole counsel of God. Without Faith it is impossible to please God. There are many truths that we can try to support... however, it is vain and sinful if we do not trust in the promises of God.

Brother, I heard your testimony of how God proved to you that He speaks to those that are His. This is how we know the Holy Spirit's seal is with us.

As you stated above, it is impossible to please God without faith. And further more, if I might add to what you said, it is impossible to have a God given faith unless we hear the word of God. For all things begin with God.

Here is another promise given to the saints....
............................................................................
Proverb 1:
20 \tWisdom calls aloud outside;
\tShe raises her voice in the open squares.
21 \tShe cries out in the chief concourses,
\tAt the openings of the gates in the city
\tShe speaks her words:
22 \t“How long, you simple ones, will you love simplicity?
\tFor scorners delight in their scorning,
\tAnd fools hate knowledge.
23 \tTurn at my rebuke;
\tSurely I will pour out my spirit on you;
\tI will make my words known to you.

..............................................................................

In this section of Scripture we find the source of our faith....
Again....verse 23

"...Surely I will pour out my spirit on you;

I will make my words known to you."

Brother Abe, do you hear the promise in this Scripture?

God Bless
In Christ
Jeff

I've been thinking that a more apt title for this thread might have been "Motives behind creating a threads that instigate disputes between Conditonal/Eternal Security"

Maybe the creator of this thread was not aware of the ramifications of such at the very beginning, but alas, here it is. Behold the fruit.

How many times will we go around in this same circle, brethen? Don't you ever get tired of it? Don't you ever get weary of the vertigo? Why do we feel the incessant need to scrutinize each other's theological leanings to provoke confrontations in the schoolyard?

One of the blessed things about being fully convinced and at ease with your beliefs is the [i]rest[/i] we soon experience from trying to proselytize others in the flesh. Now, there's nothing wrong with discussing motives on why certain people lean a particular way theologically; the problem arises when we stop discussing motives and begin injecting our own exceptions and indignant comments - the ineluctable result of engaging in these kinds of "loaded" discussions.

May I be frank here? If we are going to discuss such a mature subject as the intracasies of eternal versus conditonal security - and the motives for believing upon either one - we ought to also be mature enough in behavior to not to fall into the sand trap around the green. Certain subjects are too mature for children to discuss properly, and this Cal/Arm Conditional/Unconditional stuff has proven to be such the topic again and again and again in this forum. What starts out as a tranquil game of golf on a clean fairway, eventually ends up with all the players in the sand pit, clubbing each other with their irons. Iron does not sharpen iron in this case; it injures. And it's an embarrassment to the spectators.

Old_Joe,

we ought to also be mature enough in behavior

This is the forrest where '[i]play the [u]ball[/u], not the man[/i]' gets lost.

Simply to see who has EVERLASTING life and who doesn't.

I didn't know what most people here believed, but I have a good idea now.

I never get tired of labouring to bring EVERLASTING life.

This is not a Cal/Arm debate, this is about having EVERLASTING life.

Sometimes gospel work isn't pretty.

There are a bunch here whose beliefs prove they do not know whether they have EVERLASTING life or not, but Christ came that we may KNOW that we HAVE ETERNAL life.

The Bible divides us into only two groups, those who have EVERLASTING life and those who do not, is this then not worth the fight?

I spend lots of time with the cults and false religions. The common theme with ALL of them is that they do not know whether they have EVERLASTING life or not. Ask a Muslim, a JW, a CoC, etc. none of them have any assurance of salvation, let alone the full assurance of salvation that the Bible proclaims

If you believe there is a return policy on your redemption, you believe not in the redemption of Christ which is an "eternal redemption".

I'm not going to get sucked into this implacable debate; I will only say that I regard everlasting life as a catalyst: the concept of it alone may influence others' perceptions of it, though it itself remains uneffected and unassailable. God is also big enough - and the blood of Christ strong enough - to not banish a believer from it simply because of a supposed "lack of light" in the grasping of its veracity.

Eternal security on the other hand can only have the glory of God as the motive for perseverance. The believer recognizes: 1) That they already possess everlasting life, 2) That the new birth ensures they will persevere to the end, and 3)That with this life they are to use it to glorify God. Their reason for persevering in righteousness and practical holiness has nothing to do with self-preservation, but rather that the name of God be not blasphemed.

I would ask you again to consider your "motive" for bringing these types of topics to the forum.

Old_Joe,

You said,

The key motive for the perseverance of those who hold to conditional security is to [b]hold on to[/b] or obtain salvation, either way it is for their own preservation.

The Apostle Paul wrote,

"But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness. Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses."

- 1Timothy 6:11-12(KJV)

I asked you sometime before in this thread why I should believe anything that you say. I also had been insisting on comapring your words with what the scripture says.

Soon after, and after I also did not answer a question that you kept asking(I mean I did not appearantly answer it as you wanted because I did answer it), right after that you began to accuse me and to attempt to condemn me.

I asked you then, to provide qoutations from me that would testify to your accusations. I have seen none. Since then you further accused me and made a similar attempt to condemn me.

In your words,

"You cannot argue with that, it has been displayed over and over again."

Shall we judge you by your fruit?

Considering all that has been posted, one simple question will answer this:

Do you have everlasting life? Yes or No

And now the thread will be locked. The one simple question has been answered, which, according to you, covers all that has been posted up to this point. Case closed. Couldn't you have just asked this question without all the polarizing insinuations?