Christmas trees in Jeremiahs days.

A brother showed me this verse today:

Jeremiah 10:2-4: "Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not." (KJV).

I guess christmas trees arent a new thing

Wow, hadn't noticed that passage.

I'm sure their motives for cutting and decorating trees were different. My mother doesn't worship hers. In fact, if you asked her why she has it, she would probably say, "it was pretty, and on sale."

If you warned her, "did you know those were used in German pagan worship rituals," she would say, "Really?! What morons they were to worship trees instead of God who made them! Do you like mine? It's very pretty, isn't it."

I found the history in this article interesting.

[url=http://www.christianitytoday.com/ch/thepastinthepresent/storybehind/whychristmastrees.html?start=1]Why do we have Christmas trees?[/url]

[b]Jeremiah 10:2-4[/b] [color=990000]Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, [b]the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.[/b] They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.[/color]

They make an idol out of the tree, by forming the wood with an ax.
They don't make a tree onto an idol.

Hi everyone,

They make an idol out of the tree, by forming the wood with an ax.

I think that the idol is made by the worship given to it and the place it is given in the heart, and when that which is not God is treated as though it were:

"They [i]are[/i] upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also [i]is it[/i] in them to do good."

- Jeremiah 10:5(KJV)

I once questioned a group of people that were preaching downtown during Christmas about this subject. This passage from Jeremiah was one of the passages they appealed to in railing against Christmas trees.

They suggested to me that if I were to place a package in front of a Christmas tree, and kneel down in the process of doing it, that the act of doing so would be contrary to the law against idolatry in Exodus.

I asked them what they thought of God's commandment to Moses to make a serpent and put it on a pole in the wilderness:

"And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live."

- Numbers 21:8(KJV)

Was it an act of idolatry for the Israelites to look upon a brassen serpent fixed to a wooden pole? But those that looked, believing the word of God through Moses, it says, were healed:

"And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived."

- Numbers 21:9(KJV)

And were they not clear in this because their faith was toward God in what He had said?

But I think that we ought to be carefull not to trouble the consciences of those who have liberty and an otherwise clear concience in what they have in their private homes before God.

Grace and peace to you all in Christ.

As Logic already pointed out, the people in question here are making an idol out of the tree. If you continue with that reasoning, then you wouldn't be able to have pictures up on your wall, etc.

If you continue with that reasoning, then you wouldn't be able to have pictures up on your wall, etc.

Where will it end? If you allow bitterness to grasp you, it will eat away like a canker. Yes, I said bitterness. The most lethal cankers are those that expand in the realm of spirit, cloaked by an auora of "godliness" and "sanctification" by those whose consciences are offended by certain objects they deem as pagan. In most cases, however, the consciences of these believers are surprisingly accomodating and malleable when the issue of jeopardizing their own personal comfort and convenience comes into play.

What happens is, in their irrepressible quest to be holy and separate from pagandom, they surface-scan the scriptures and tediously pick apart the etymology of each and every event in life that others might find enjoyment in. If they find any trace of an element that doesnt conform to their preconceived ideal of how Christianity should operate, the whole shebang is automatically labelled anathema and discarded. Deep down, however, these "anathema hunters" are full of unrest, critique and disdain. It is a paradox; you would think God would verify their zealous disassociations and pagan insights, but, for the most part, the Lord does not infer His fragrance upon their critiques. I think He does not touch them, because He knows the root from which they bloom. The more dry, the more parched the dirt, the less likely a frangrant flower will take root. Instead, we see wildflowers, crab grass, ragwed and cactus. I propose that much of the sharpshooting and pagan allegations we see this time of the year (and in general) are nothing more than wildflowers. They look pretty from a distance - brilliant colors - but have no aroma of sweetness. They smell like dirt up close. And a factor that contribues to their resplendency it the fact that they all bunch togeter in one patch.

Hello and blessings everyone,

This thread caught my attention because I had just read this passage again last week.

Logic quoted that the people were not worshiping the "tree" so to speak, but that they were cutting down a tree out of the forest so that they could carve an image out of the wood.

I agree, I too feel that this is what these verses mean.

Of course that does not mean that everything or image that a person carves out of wood is an idol, (for instance, little farm animals I gave my grandchildren) it just means that we are not to carve or make anything for the purpose of worshiping it.

These people would then decorate the carved image with gold and silver and stand it up and worship it.

This sounds a lot like when the Israelites formed an image out of melted gold (golden calf).
It also makes me think of a totem pole.
The difference was one was carved out of wood, the other was formed of gold.

Here's where the sin lies,

The Israelites made the image of the golden calf to worship... just like the heathen that Jeremiah referred to were doing.

I bought a bronze statue of a buffalo for my husband to place next to his sharps rifle and buffalo picture, I appreciate it's beauty and somebody's talent....

But I worship GOD

Blessings, bonni

I thought it was an interesting verse, thats all, I do have a christmastree in my house, i dont pass judgment on anyone that has, the verse made me go a bit like Michael "wow".

I believe this is under the freedom Paul speaks about, some eat some dont. Seeing it pretty much is the same principal i think. Some dont feel ok with it and dont have it, some feel ok with it and have it.

PaulWest wrote:
What happens is, in their irrepressible quest to be holy and separate from pagandom, they surface-scan the scriptures and tediously pick apart the etymology of each and every event in life that others might find enjoyment in. If they find any trace of an element that doesnt conform to their preconceived ideal of how Christianity should operate, the whole shebang is automatically labelled anathema and discarded. Deep down, however, these "anathema hunters" are full of unrest, critique and disdain. It is a paradox; you would think God would verify their zealous disassociations and pagan insights, but, for the most part, the Lord does not infer His fragrance upon their critiques. I think He does not touch them, because He knows the root from which they bloom. The more dry, the more parched the dirt, the less likely a frangrant flower will take root. Instead, we see wildflowers, crab grass, ragwed and cactus. I propose that much of the sharpshooting and pagan allegations we see this time of the year (and in general) are nothing more than wildflowers. They look pretty from a distance - brilliant colors - but have no aroma of sweetness. They smell like dirt up close. And a factor that contribues to their visual resplendency it the fact that they all bunch togeter in one patch.

I am sorry if i have done this, I need to take a step back and consider the things you say. Thank you for saying so.

I thought it was an interesting verse, thats all, I do have a christmastree in my house, i dont pass judgment on anyone that has, the verse made me go a bit like Michael "wow".

Now, these verses in the hand of an uninformed and angry person with a chip on his/her shoulders against Christmas will transform it into a weapon to stumble other believers. What we see happen is the actual equivalent of a spiritual "strawman" argument. I guess we can call it a "treeman" here :-)

I didn't think that this was your intent, Christian. I'm sorry that I didn't put down a disclaimer. Merry Christmas to you and Happy New Year dear brother.

p.s. We didn't get a tree this year. Too busy at the funeral home and my wife and I are just being lazy. This is the last year we celebrate the holidays and New Year with just the two of us :)

Lord willing, with the baby next year, we'll have a beautiful tree with all the garland and lights and lots of photographs and memories to share with my family.

PaulWest wrote:
We didn't get a tree this year. Too busy at the funeral home and my wife and I are just being lazy. This is the last year we celebrate the holidays and New Year with just the two of us :)

Lord willing, with the baby next year, we'll have a beautiful tree with all the garland and lights and lots of photographs and memories to share with my family.

I rejoice with you and your wife, i have quiver full my self :-) , i pray all goes well. I was still an unbeliever when my first children came into the world, i had twins first time and it was very powerful, i remember i thought in my unconverted state that there must be a God, because such perfection can not come from nothing, evolution happened by chance ect.

Truly this is wonderful brother, congratulations to you and your wife. May the Lord grant you a house full of energetic children that make you age ;-)

Also, one thing i noted for myself is, the revelation of God as a loving father becomes somewhat stronger when you have your own children. Anyway, its incredible and i am glad you will receive this blessing brother.

As I read this thread, I am becoming more and more convinced that the trees are indeed an idol.

Personally, the Lord has shown me that this is something that He does not want me to have - so I will obey. If next year, He directs me to put up a tree, I will obey. Similarly, if He wants me to go into a bar, I will go in. If He wants me to stay out, I will stay out. Only He knows what is right. He has proven this to me time and again. My wisdom is but foolishness.

It would seem, after the things that I have read here, that it would be wise to at least pray before we make a decision on these things - for there will be a price to be paid in going forward in our own strength.

When I was a teenager, I played with a Ouji board. When it moved on it's own, it scared me and I never played with one again. However, when the Lord was purging me of all of the evil of my past, this was one of the things that I had to repent of - even though I did not understand fully what I had done. I actually went and dug up the picture that was taken of me using the board - and I burned it. While the Lord has not had me repent of having Christmas trees, we must take into consideration that there are spiritual things happening that we are not aware of. The enemy would have us align ourselves with the things of this world, and only our Saviour can save us from doing such things.

Hi everyone,

As I read this thread, I am becoming more and more convinced that the trees are indeed an idol.

I would like to make a general suggestion here if I could?

I do not think that a strong response to something is nescessarily an indication that the thing is an idol to others.

For instance, implications or things that are implied by the introduction of a topic can be offensive and can provoke a strong response also.

Like if a man were to walk into a crowded room and announce to everyone that [b]the room stinks[/b]. That persons opinon about the room would likely be offensive to those who were already in it, even if they couldn't care less about the room itself.

In the same way, being reproached as an idolater could be offensive also, whether you care about the supposed idol or not.

The Apostle Paul asks

[i]...who is offended, and I burn not? [/i]

As much as we ought to be carefull to guard against idolatry, we ought also be carefull to guard against falsely charging the consciences of others with guilt. There are consequences for going forward with that also. Amen?

Grace and peace to you all.

falsely charging the consciences of others with guilt.

Pretty much everything I say seems to be offensive. :-?

Hi Heartsong,

About charging others with guilt,

You had said before that you were increasingly convinced after reading this thread that the Christmas trees were idols.

If they are not, and others take what you have said to be true, and feel guilty of idolatry for having them in their homes, wouldn't this be like placing guilt in the conscience of others that is not right or should not rightfully be there?

How can it be that my words would "place guilt" in the conscience of others?

From what I have experienced, there are two influences - good and evil. If I have my eyes on the Lord, and am abiding in Him, what others say is of very little consequence regarding the things that I do, or do not do. However, if I have taken my eyes off of the Lord, or have taken to doing things outside of His will, the voices of others can be VERY condemning.

It is not my intention to "place guilt" on others. Another one of my concerns is that all of the justification of these Christmas traditions could lure others away from being obedient unto the Lord, for He has had me to cease from such things, and I am sure that He would have the same for others.

For what it is worth, the Lord has given me visions of these Christmas threads as being the equivalent of "dancing around the golden calf" (the mention of same, earlier in this thread, brought it all to the surface again). This has been very painful as I have considered many of you to be my friends, but I can not endure the mocking of my Lord.

Would anyone care to define 'idol', preferably from the biblical context?

I am not sure if this is the biblical context, but I understand it to be anything that I love more than the Lord Jesus.

"For when one says, "I am for Christmas trees (of Paul)," and another, "I am not for Christmas trees (of Apollos)," are you not carnal." 1Cointhians 3:4 (revised version)

Dear Heartsong,

"How can it be that my words would "place guilt" in the conscience of others?

From what I have experienced, there are two influences - good and evil. If I have my eyes on the Lord, and am abiding in Him, what others say is of very little consequence regarding the things that I do, or do not do."

I understand that this may be your experience, but you are in a public forum interacting with people both seen and unseen.

Please Heartsong, let me, as gently as I can, urge you to consider what you are saying here and how it might affect the consciences of others, and to consider some of the warnings in the scriptures in regards to how we are to treat our judgments of others in matters that may not be clear or easily agreed upon.

For instance, in some matters, where we may have liberty of conscience to do or to not do something, we are not to make judgments about others(Romans 14:1-10 for example).

In the same way, I realise that you may be very uncomfortable with the idea of Christmas trees and I do not want to pursuade you otherwise. Only I think that you in turn should be very carefull in making a declaration that the same Christmas trees are idols to the believers here, if they have them in their houses.

This is a condemnation of sin upon them, and yes I think it could bear upon their conscience(Mat 7:1-2).

Please consider these things,

Thankyou,

Chris

[i]edited to correct errors in spelling[/i]

Hi again everyone,

I want to respond to this directly for the sake of the discussion here:

How can it be that my words would "place guilt" in the conscience of others?

I think that we can do this by deciding for others that something is sin, if it is not.

I think that this is what Paul warns against in Col 2:16.

According to Strong's the word [i]judge[/i] there means

G2919
κρίνω
krinō
kree'-no
Properly to distinguish, that is, decide (mentally or judicially); by implication to try, condemn, punish: - avenge, conclude, condemn, damn, decree, determine, esteem, judge, go to (sue at the) law, ordain, call in question, sentence to, think.

Chris,

Thank you for your patience with me - but I am still not getting it. How can I be judging you if I don't even know whether or not you have a tree? As for my feelings about Christmas trees, personally I don't care one way or the other whether or not someone has one - I am not even uncomfortable being around them. However, what is of great concern to me, is that the Lord would not have me to have one - and I would assume that there is a reason.

"My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God." - 1 John 3:18-21

Please pray for me in this matter, as I would not want to do anything that would harm any of His children.

I think that we can do this by deciding for others that something is sin, if it is not.

I think that this is what Paul warns against in Col 2:16.

This does not say do not judge. It says do not be judged.

I used to be perplexed by the commandment "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image of anything that is in heaven above or in the earth beneath..." This really came home to me one day when I was playing with my children, modelling faces out of play-doh because I was trying hard to form a human head with my clump of play-doh.

Then I looked at the OT scriptures some more, especially the historical part. History teaches us how people regarded God's statues, their responses and God's.

Soon after the ten commandments were given, God also gave them specific instructions, very detailed, on how to build the tabernacle. They were told to make pomegranates, flowers etc out of beaten gold; cherubims graced the top of the mercy seat...So it appears God was contradicting himself by telling them don't do it and then in the same breath telling them how to pretty up his tabernacle by making figures resembling things found in nature! Jehovah just does not operate that way, at least not according to my understanding of the Word.

So, what does the commandment mean? Then I noticed this in Exodus 20:5: "Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God.." ah, so this must be the clue: fall down and worship and image you have made. Well! now this concept becomes far more encompassing then the mere construction of an idol: it can very well mean any work that I adore above God. hhhmmmm.

My grandfather, who was raised Amish, had strong aversions to having his picture taken...When I got a camera as a gift at 13 I took candid pictures of him on the sly and later I found out it really upset him because he felt like this was a violation of this second commandment. I loved my grandfather and in respect to him, I no longer took his picture...but his wife loved pictures of their grandchildren... Anyhow, this experience taught me to respect those who have a conscience against something I do not. It is of far more importance to respect these consciences lest we set before them a stumbling block.

Anyhow, this has been the story of my pilgrimage during this maze of understanding what the Scripture sayeth on this issue.

Blessings,

ginnyrose

Where will it end? If you allow bitterness to grasp you, it will eat away like a canker. Yes, I said bitterness. The most lethal cankers are those that expand in the realm of spirit, cloaked by an auora of "godliness" and "sanctification" by those whose consciences are offended by certain objects they deem as pagan. In most cases, however, the consciences of these believers are surprisingly accomodating and malleable when the issue of jeopardizing their own personal comfort and convenience comes into play.

What happens is, in their irrepressible quest to be holy and separate from pagandom, they surface-scan the scriptures and tediously pick apart the etymology of each and every event in life that others might find enjoyment in. If they find any trace of an element that doesnt conform to their preconceived ideal of how Christianity should operate, the whole shebang is automatically labelled anathema and discarded. Deep down, however, these "anathema hunters" are full of unrest, critique and disdain. It is a paradox; you would think God would verify their zealous disassociations and pagan insights, but, for the most part, the Lord does not infer His fragrance upon their critiques. I think He does not touch them, because He knows the root from which they bloom. The more dry, the more parched the dirt, the less likely a frangrant flower will take root. Instead, we see wildflowers, crab grass, ragwed and cactus. I propose that much of the sharpshooting and pagan allegations we see this time of the year (and in general) are nothing more than wildflowers. They look pretty from a distance - brilliant colors - but have no aroma of sweetness. They smell like dirt up close. And a factor that contribues to their resplendency it the fact that they all bunch togeter in one patch.

Paul, this is profound...perhaps you need to post whis where it can easiy be found?

ginnyrose

Hi Heartsong,

Thank you for taking the time to respond also.

"How can I be judging you if I don't even know whether or not you have a tree?"

I understand, but calling the trees [b]idols[/b] implies that those who have them are idolators, or at least that they have something [b]sinful[/b] in their homes. Even if we do not say that to them directly.

I think that statements like that(the trees are idols), if taken to heart by those that read them, can lead them to feel as though they have to make a choice about the trees in order to have a clear conscience before God. That may be good, but it could also be bad if they have a sense of guilt about something that God is not holding against them.

Also, about the passage in Colossians,

"This does not say do not judge. It says do not be judged."

Right, but does that mean the Apostle approved of those that were judging them in what they ate or drank or the days they observed? I don't think it does. In the same sort of context, that is, about similar issues, he writes to those in Rome:

[i]Who art thou that judgest another man's servant?[/i]

and

[i] But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at naught thy brother?[/i]

I think that these passages show us that there are things which should be left up to the individual to decide before God as to whether or not it is right or wrong.

And so for us, we should consider if what we say could be in effect, deciding for them, if they believe what we say is true.

I don't know if this has been helpful to be clearer; I hope so and I appologise if it is not.

Chris

I understand, but calling the trees idols implies that those who have them are idolators, or at least that they have something sinful in their homes. Even if we do not say that to them directly.

I think that statements like that(the trees are idols), if taken to heart by those that read them, can lead them to feel as though they have to make a choice about the trees in order to have a clear conscience before God. That may be good, but it could also be bad if they have a sense of guilt about something that God is not holding against them.

It is the direction of the heart that determines the matter.

But anything can be an idol. And anything can be sinful. And anything someone says can be considered as being judgmental.

Yes, and calling them [b]idols[/b] takes the guessing out of it. Doesn't it.

Especially in a forum about that very thing.

If your heart is clear on the matter, it should not be a problem.

Is your heart clear on the matter? Have you asked the Lord to show you how He feels in the matter? Have you listened for His reply? Would you be willing to turn away if that is what He required?

Heartsong,

This isn't about me. Yes, my conscience is absolutely clear.

It is a problem though, because we are discussing these things in a public forum, with people we may know something about, and with others of whom we may know nothing.

Dear Heartsong, I'm not going to reply to the other questions that you asked me. I reaslise that there is a way to ask probing questions that are genuinely spiritual.

I also know, from experience, that the same things can be an empty wind and our own hot air.

It is a problem though, because we are discussing these things in a public forum, with people we may know something about, and with others of whom we may know nothing.

If my words are put forth with no malice of heart, and I have confirmed this by bringing it before the Lord - then who are you to judge what I have said? for you do not know my heart - but my Father does, and it is to Him that I am accountable.

I love you Chris, but I just do not get what you are saying. It will take the Lord to reveal this to me, so if you see that I have things wrong, please pray for me - that I might see any truth that is being hidden from me - for it is my desire to be obedient unto my Lord and to dwell within His Light.

May I hang a painting in my home?

May I frame it, too?

If the painting becomes old, make I keep the frame alone?

May it be a pretty frame?

May I appreciate it for the beauty of the woodwork done, and glorify God for the sensation of pleasure He has attached to aesthetic taste?

May I bring in a carved log, for the same artistic reasons?

How carved must it be?

May I bring in an uncarved bough or limb of driftwood, simply because it is beautiful to me, and glorify the Lord for it as Adam praised God for Eve?

May I, like David, exalt God like for the natural world, and not have some of it in my house, too?

In the worship at the temple one would find golden cherubim, candlesticks, and life-sized bulls. These were made by God's ordering. A serpent on a stick was ordained by God, and was preserved until people began to worship it. The object which was to one generation a blessed pointer to God, was to another a false sense of hope, and a curse.

Hi again Heartsong,

And thank you again for your response.

"If I worry about what others think, or how they will take what I am saying, and let that dictate my actions or words - then my relationship with those people is an idol."

I think I can understand how you feel, but I disagree. I think that we might even be able to come to a better understanding together about this by what you mentioned here.

In Paul's letter to the Corinthians, there was a situation where:

Some believers, because of the knowledge they had of the true God, were now convinced that idols were nothing, and that they could without any grief of conscience, eat food that had been dedicated to the idol, because they themselves and in their own hearts did not regard it as such. 1Corinthians 8:1-6.

Others, who were believers themselves, still held that there was something to these idols, and, if they eat something that had been sacrificed to them, would perhaps feel a prick of conscience for doing so. Even though the idol was nothing(v4), because they thought it was something, it was sin unto their conscience.

Now then, if two of these differnt believers were together in the same place, and the one who felt liberty to eat those things was seen doing so by the other, who did not, and that other knew that the first was himself a beleiver, then Paul says will he not be emboldened to do that which his own conscience is accusing him of being wrong, because he sees the other brother eating it(v10)?

And then he suggests that he may even perish(KJV) in doing this.

So Paul says God forbid that anyone should use their own liberty when it may cause another to stumble. He even says that doing so would be to sin against Christ(v12).

And then he says, in order to avoid ever doing such a thing, if his eating such meat would cause his brother to sin, that he would not eat meat so long as the earth was standing(v13)!

And this is why I disagree, that changing our behavior, or being careful what we say to other believers, is nescessarily making an idol out of our relationship with them.

No, I don't think it is at all. I think that this passage is suggesting to us, that our relationship to other believers is woven together with Christ. And that our treating them one way may be treating Him that way as well.

And in this case, I think that we should be carefull not to create an offense or sin in anothers heart, if God is not holding this thing against them.

I hope that my very weak explanation of these passages will be sufficient and will not cause any confusion for anyone. Please forgive me if what I have written is not clear or in error in anyway.

Wish you all well,

Chris