Individual Church Visions and the Bible...your thoughts.

Well I am restless in my own thoughts trying to make sense of what I see.

For those of you who love Jesus and try everyday to follow his Word....Has anyone been noticing that the people of God are starving for a fellowship of Genuine believers walking in faith? Willing to do what the Bible says Everyday?

My thoughts ...correct me please.

I have been fellowshiping with the non-denomination-denomination. I have grown so tired of praying for the "New" building, listening and trying to praise the Lord to "this is the air I Breathe" till everyone is emotionaly spent, and watching everyone trying to make the Cut in being the Good Looking minister/Hireling suck ups to a "Klicky" leadership. How far are we from the Mark and how badly are we missing it?

The (My) Heart is decietfully wicked right...Am I just a Bitter believer in sin, not submitting to a church's vision. Or is this what the Church in America is today? Is it men following men with ideas of How it all should be done? Waiting for approval from one another in order to do what they KNOW is already right? Is the Worship leaders new les paul with a Marshall half stack more important then some 90 orphans in Pena Blanca Honduras getting atleast one meal a day served by someone wanting to show the Love of God and point them to Jesus?

Some body please slap me! Then pray I dont get an Isaiah complex and start some zealous home fellowship.

Note : I am limiting my Brother Ravenhill sermons to 2 a year....if that much.

Thanks for your encouragement or exhortation in advance.

I think that's some good advice, Brother Tom. I've been through that myself, and I also have friends who have been there, wondering if we can't find a decent church because we're maybe being too picky. A good thing about being in transition between churches, though, is that you have to learn how to stand on your own for a season, and it can strengthen you if you choose to see it as an opportunity to do so, but still we were not meant to walk alone all the time.

Your brothers may have their focus off. Your brothers may be trendy. Your brothers may play lots of games. But they are still your brothers just the same. Wherever God has planted you, blossom there.

Therefore, strengthen the hands that are weak and the knees that are feeble, and make straight paths for your feet, so that the limb which is lame may not be put out of joint, but rather be healed. (Hebrews 12:12-13)

There are some weak, feeble, and lame brethren out there. Indeed, there are many whose lives are out of joint and they have rendered themselves lame. But tend to them, love them, and take care of them. Build them up in the most holy faith, that was once and for all delivered to the saints. Be patient, and remember that you yourself have probably been in their very same predicament before in your own life. But the Lord was patient with you, and had mercy on you. Therefore, show mercy to them.

Withdrawing fellowship from your weaker brethren so you can form a small group of Ravenhill's simply is not the will of the Lord. He never did that nor would He do that today.

"And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, My people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues." (Revelation 18:2-4 KJV)

Hello KingJimmy,

Withdrawing fellowship from your weaker brethren so you can form a small group of Ravenhill's simply is not the will of the Lord. [b]He never did that nor would He do that today.[/b]

Can you quote me the scripture for that? It sounds more like a personal assumption of what you feel He would say. I trust you do not intend putting words in our Lords mouth. If I am in error here, please show me.

regards,
white stone

Thanks Brothers....appreciate it.

Some body please slap me! Then pray I dont get an Isaiah complex and start some zealous home fellowship.

--well that's how it started out "Believers meet house to house"

An organism of cooperating cells submitting to the direct headship of Christ, rather than a religious business corporation where the directors raise up a vision in Jesus' name.

The corporate model is easier to control by men, the the former much harder.

The head of every believing man is Christ not the local Church. He has an individual plan/vision for each believer. And as long as it supports the corporate church's vision they'll support yours-(maybe). When the Lord leads you in a different path than the corporate vision then suddenly your a divisive brother; not submitting to the headship their church.
"Who's your covering?"-- a catch phrase of man's control. Christ is my head and the presence of the Holy Spirit my covering.

cordially Ron J.

White_Stone wrote:

"And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, My people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues." (Revelation 18:2-4 KJV)

Hello KingJimmy,

Withdrawing fellowship from your weaker brethren so you can form a small group of Ravenhill's simply is not the will of the Lord. [b]He never did that nor would He do that today.[/b]

Can you quote me the scripture for that? It sounds more like a personal assumption of what you feel He would say. I trust you do not intend putting words in our Lords mouth. If I am in error here, please show me.

regards,
white stone

Yes, please show me as well.

I am one of those you speak of that has started a House Church. Have you been involved in many???? Any???

Blessings my friend.

""Can you quote me the scripture for that? It sounds more like a personal assumption of what you feel He would say. I trust you do not intend putting words in our Lords mouth. If I am in error here, please show me.""

The only time the Scriptures ever encourage us to disassociate ourselves with other Christians is in the case of those who persist in open sin, and shun the discipline of those in the church who show them their sin. Read Paul's letter to the Corinthians. Or read five of John's seven letters to the churches in Revelation. Or read our Lord's command in Matthew. Never will you find a verse in the entire New Testament that encourages you to leave one church and go to another, or to form a small group of Ravenhill's to protest a large lukewarm churches.

To do so is to create division in the body of Christ, and is just as much sin and carnality as those who are living in adulterous relationships. "Divisions" or "Factions" is listed as a fruit of the flesh in Galatians 6, which ranks with some other gross immorality. There is nothing spiritual about it. "Come out of her My people!" is often the cry of many such individuals. In my opinion and experience, I'm glad to see such people go when they finally do go. That way the church can get on with the business of being the church.

That's not to say I don't sympathize with such a view point. If there is anybody that is jealous for a church that is pure, white, and without spot and wrinkle, it would be me. But that doesn't mean we ignore the fact there are those who are genuine brethren who don't regularly live up to that standard. Indeed, there are brethren who are quite stale in their walk, and have little passion for God. Mere pew warmers on many levels. Oh to God this were not the case, but the fact of the matter is that this is the case. And such excites me and challenges me all the more. God knows I've been there and done that.

I thank God for the people who woke me from my slumber. Thank God they did not break away from the church and have nothing to do with lukewarm people like me. Otherwise, I would not be the man of God that I am today. We must patiently deal with immature and lukewarm believers. It is only so-called brethren who live in open sin that we must disassociate ourselves with. To disassociate from the brethren just because their cold and institutional has no foundation to it in Scripture whatsoever.

As for house churches, no, I've never "formally" been involved with a house church. Every Friday night though, I do open my apartment up for a time of fellowship with other men in the church. There is no formality to it. We show up, we eat, we share, we look at Scriptures, we lay hands on one another, we pray, and we go home. There is no leader. We simply meet under the headship of Christ, and simply as brethren. Some weeks some men have more to share than others. Sometimes our schedules conflict and we don't get together at all.

I believe God has called me to be a church planter here in America one day. He has put it in my heart to plant a church that is as organic as possible, and be house/cell based. But, I'm not opposed to having a larger more formal Sunday morning service so long as its done in the right spirit.

Hello KingJimmy,

Your arguments do not hold water. There is no comparing the practice of worship held by the early Christian's and those of today. There were no mortgages owed on buildings used for the Lord's Supper. There were no 'music programs,' or PA equipment to pay for.

The early Christian's were not set in stone, they may have moved from place to place, just as people do now. They could not have been expected to have been locked into attending the same Church family for life.

If there is total starvation for the Spirit of God how can you prove we must stay or justify the statement below?

To do so is to create division in the body of Christ, and is just as much sin and carnality as those who are living in adulterous relationships.

That sounds terribly judgmental and opinionated to me.

Kind regards,
white stone

KingJimmy wrote:

As for house churches, no, I've never "formally" been involved with a house church. Every Friday night though, I do open my apartment up for a time of fellowship with other men in the church. There is no formality to it. We show up, we eat, we share, we look at Scriptures, we lay hands on one another, we pray, and we go home. There is no leader. We simply meet under the headship of Christ, and simply as brethren. Some weeks some men have more to share than others. Sometimes our schedules conflict and we don't get together at all.

I believe God has called me to be a church planter here in America one day. He has put it in my heart to plant a church that is as organic as possible, and be house/cell based. But, I'm not opposed to having a larger more formal Sunday morning service so long as its done in the right spirit.

Brother, you ARE a part of a House Church.

Welcome! :-)

Your arguments do not hold water.

Can you show me Scriptural justification for refusing to fellowship with other believers on the grounds that they are not Spirit-filled enough in their church services? Remember, Paul said some in Corinth were dividing on grounds that they were of Cephas, Barnabas, Paul... and then there were those who were saying they were dividing on grounds that they were "...of Christ!" Paul condemned all as a fit of carnality and immaturity. That includes those who said they were the sect of Jesus!

"We gather around the headship of Jesus Christ alone!" I submit to you in all humility and brotherly love that this is a lie from hell. It's just as divisive as those who say they are of Cephas, Barnabas, Paul, the Baptists, Pentecostals, Presbyterians or whoever. The believer who is truly spiritual, those who Paul calls "the approved among you," are those who can gather together with any group of brethren, no matter their denominational affiliation and no matter their state of spiritual maturity. It is the spiritually immature who pull away from genuine fellowship with other believers simply because they don't quite add up to the stature they think somebody should i.e. Ravenhill's.

If there is total starvation for the Spirit of God how can you prove we must stay or justify the statement below?

Wherever two or three are gathered, He is there. Just because the movement of the Spirit tends to be on the stagnant side when believers gather doesn't mean He's not there. Biblically speaking, He's ALWAYS there so long as His people are. He's just as much there in an out of control Corinthian gathering where the gifts are abused as He is in a church where there is no demonstration of the gifts. Both churches are just as immature spiritually, though perhaps the stagnant church where there is no one-anothering is more fit, because at least they aren't being competitive and rude with the usage of their gifts, and stepping on one anothers toes in order to display their gift.

Wherever the Lord is, the Spirit is. If there are any who are saved at any gathering, then His presence is definitely there. Whether it be in an institutional setting or a house church setting. His presence is there just the same. This is truth. And if Jesus can fellowship with the people in the stagnant church, and still live inside of them, immature as they are, then there is no reason you should ever leave them. Indeed, it is your duty rather as a Christian to stay, and to strengthen the hands of the weak.

Oh, no doubt, your staying and doing things that are unconventional even as they persist in the status quo will probably bother them, and possibly create some conflicts within that church. But such is a cross one must bear. Simply withdrawing from fellowship is nothing more than cross avoidance. It's a cowardly thing to do. And there can be no Pentecost without going through the cross.

I have a lot of sympathy for what you write. Yet I think it may be over-general. For instance, what would you tell a Catholic who was born-again? Would you tell him to stay where he was and not avoid his cross? What about a Baptist who gets Spirit filled and there is no place for that in the church where he worships?

I believe you are misunderstanding me. I have emphasized throughout my posst that I am assuming that one is gathering with real believers who actually have Jesus living inside of them. People who have actually been saved. As far as a Baptist getting Spirit-filled, he should by all means attempt to continue on at the Baptist church he is in. Unfortunately, many Southern Baptist churches will make no room for him, and will show him the door. It is one thing to be kicked out of a church and have nowhere to go, it is quite another to break away with a contentious "I can do better elsewhere" attitude.

The only reasons I personally can justify leaving a church for are: 1) You move far away 2) God actually tells you to go somewhere else 3) They kick you out.

Leaving a church because they don't play the way you'd like them to play, however, I think is entirely unjustified. Indeed, sometimes its more complicated than this. But, if you've read the rebukes Christ gave 5 of the 7 churches in Revelation 2-3, you'll never once see Christ give any faithful on fire believers the "Come out of her My people!" type call many profess to hear today. What do you find instead? You find Christ warning those churches to get their act together. And these were in churches that had problems much bigger than being seeker friendly! He commends the faithful for their faithfulness, and corrects those who are in error for their error. And as Paul makes clear to the Corinthians, if people are in error, you need to hold them to account for that error.

Lord, seriously. Have we actually read the Bible in all its ugly nakedness? Have we actually read Paul's epistles? We need to clear our minds of all these romantic notions of what the early church was really like. Seriously, consider Corinth. At Corinth you had sectarianism running wild, people living in open sexual immorality of the grossest kind-- and bragging about it, confusion about proper gender roles, people getting drunk on communion wine, people neglecting the poor during the Lord's Supper, charismatic chaos, and if that weren't bad enough, there was a great question mark about if Jesus was really raised from the dead!!!

This is a church Paul ministered to! And guess what? He still opened his epistle to them, greeting them as brethren, and calling this bunch of pigs sanctified! Never once did he encourage the few there who were living right to leave and go start another church down the street. Rather, he called upon the church to correct those who were in error... just as he was doing.

No doubt, many of us, probably including myself, would have been tempted to leave that bunch and write them off. No doubt, they make many of the churches I have been part of look so good. And one might seem justified in quietly packing up their bags and moving on. But, this is not in keeping with the mind of Christ, and contrary to the apostolic pattern that was displayed for us by our brother Paul.

Do what you want to. But I will follow Paul, for he followed Christ.

I can not tell you how much your post has meant to my husband and myself! Even although my response to KingJimmy was critical of his comparing the modern Church to the 'Home Style' Church in the Apostle Paul's day, his passionate argument made us feel confused.

As much confusion and pain KingJimmy's posts have caused I have assurance in these words from Romans 8:28
And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.

Praise Jesus, He is my Lord, and He will give me a
white stone

Blunt,

I would guess if you spent some time volunteering at a Crises Pregnancy Center you would find out how bad the modern-social-club many call 'church' really is. And you would feel much more discouraged then you already are because there are too many in church leadership who are fornicating. And their youth - oh my! so dreadful. Moral purity appears to be exception, not the rule.

Sorry, I can not be more optimistic of the modern-social-club some call church. (I am reluctant to call this social club 'Church' after hearing Paul Washer's take on 'church'. Ever listened to it? It just might encourage you...)

Blunt, there is something else I am seeing which may encourage you. And that is the exposure of sin in Believers. It used to be people could participate in sin privately and it would not be found out for years, if then. But no more: it is being exposed. As I see it, God is doing this to make people aware of their need to get right with God quickly because His son will return soon and it is essential to be ready for this event.

My opinion for whatever it is worth...

ginnyrose

[b]It is better to stay at home and read God's Word[/b]

[i](Arthur Pink, "A Call to Separation")[/i]

"Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? What harmony is there between Christ and the Devil? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols?" 2 Corinthians 6:14-16

This command is so plain, that it requires no interpreter.
Righteousness--and wickedness;
light--and darkness;
Christ--and the Devil;
God's temple--and idols.
What do they have in common?

This is a call to godly separation. This passage gives utterance to a Divine exhortation for those belonging to Christ--to hold aloof from all intimate associations with the ungodly. It expressly forbids them entering into alliances with the unconverted. It definitely prohibits the children of God walking arm-in-arm with worldlings. It is an admonition applying to every phase and department of our lives--religious, domestic, social, commercial. And never, perhaps, was there a time when it more needed pressing on Christians, than now. The days in which we are living are marked by the spirit of compromise. On every side we behold unholy mixtures, ungodly alliances, and unequal yokes. Many professing Christians appear to be trying how near to the world they may walk--and yet go to Heaven!

To Israel, God said, "So do not act like the people in Egypt, where you used to live, or like the people of Canaan, where I am taking you. You must not imitate their way of life. You must obey all My regulations and be careful to keep My laws, for I, the Lord, am your God!" (Leviticus 18:3-4) And again, "Do not live by the customs of the people whom I will expel before you. It is because they do these terrible things--that I detest them so much!" (Leviticus 20:23) It was for their disregard of these very prohibitions, that Israel brought down upon themselves such severe chastisements.

God's call to His people in Babylon is, "Come out of her, My people! Do not take part in her sins!" (Revelation 18:4) No one can be a whole-hearted follower of the Lord Jesus who is, in any way, "yoked" to His enemies!

"Do not be yoked together with unbelievers." This applies first to our religious connections. How many Christians are members of so-called "churches," where much is going on which they know is at direct variance with the Word of God--either the teaching from the pulpit, the worldly attractions used to draw the ungodly, and the worldly methods employed to finance it, or the constant receiving into its membership of those who give no evidence of having been born again. Believers in Christ who remain in such "churches" are dishonoring their Lord. Should they answer: "Practically all the churches are the same, and were we to resign, what would we do? We must go somewhere on Sundays!" Such language would show they are putting their own interests, before the glory of Christ. It is better to stay at home and read God's Word--than fellowship with that which His Word condemns!

What about the Catholic church? They claim to be Christians, will you decide that they are not, will you say to Catholics who discover Jesus to "buck up little camper," and stay where you are?

Comparing the Roman Catholic church to lukewarm evangelicals isn't exactly comparing like with like. When I talk about somebody who is a Christian, or when I talk about a church, I have in mind any brother who knows what the reality of Christ living inside of them actually is. To talk about Roman Catholicism is to talk about another religion altogether. In my opinion, to compare them even to the most immature Christians is to slander immature Christians. For there is a Reality and Life that separates the two entirely. For all the problems of the church, with all its immaturity and all its carnality, the living One abides and lives in it just as He does the rest of the church. If Jesus lives in them, no matter how pathetic that Life may manifest itself in somebody, then there can be no justification for separation.

Do you know what Corinth was? It was a city, with perhaps 500,000 people. The church was one entity, with many gatherings. If you left one gathering and fellowshipped in another, you would still be part of the Corinthian church. You are using a modern model to apply to Scripture.

This is true. The Scriptures seem to only recognize one church per town/city.

I think that sentence is extremly condecending, as though many good Christians make the descision to leave a church lightly. This is not a conversation about church-hoppers, its about a genuine struggle where people, at their wits ends, after years of struggling , and hearing from the Lord, decide to leave.....brother Frank

Many good Christians leave their whatever church they are a part of for many different reasons. Some good, and some bad. It is a struggle, and one I have dealt with thoroughly in my life. I have suffered a lot of abuse within the church, especially at the hands of pastors who were upset with me tipping the proverbial apple cart, and reminding them that the church they pastor is not their own little kingdom that they can see fit to build anyway they want. Many are threatened with the practical ramifications of just what it would look like if a church were to submit itself to the headship of Jesus Christ. It is something many would like to just shelve as good theology at best, but a practical impossibility.

But with all this said, so far the Lord has had me bear the hardship of it all. I know what it is to sob deeply over the present state of the church, especially the institutional variety. I know what it is to be blacklisted by state level overseers as trouble. I know what it is to be forced to "take a sabbatical" (or shut down). I know what it is like to want to run away from all the troubles and woes, and to start up another work somewhere in town. I know what it is like to lose a fiance to the institutional church, who felt like she must stay there the rest of her life, so she left me in order to pursue her ministry there. I also know what it is like to be restrained of the Lord, and told "blossom where you are planted... be patient... be quiet... wait for Me." And I'm sure you can relate on many levels with what I say, and perhaps understand where I am coming from.

I hope to inject no confusion with anybody. If you are apart from any institutional fellowship right now, that is wonderful. Stay wherever you are. Blossom where the Lord has planted you. But I hope in all this, if nothing more I trouble you a little bit. I am not anybody's enemy here, I am a friend and concerned brother in the Lord. I am jealous for God's sake that we can maintain unity of fellowship with one another, especially those within the institutional church.

They are our brothers, and we must not forsake fellowshiping with them, no matter how spiritually retarded their models of ministry may be, or how earthly they are in their living. So long as Christ lives in them, we should be inclusive of them should we find ourselves in their midst. That doesn't mean we go along with them in all the things we do. But that doesn't mean we stand up in their midst and cry for them to come out.

God bless you guys. The modern day church bears no resemblence at all to what we see in Scripture. The Lord will lead and guide you guys, of that I have no doubt....brother Frank

Blessings to you too. But this is not at all an accurate statement. It is theological wrong on so many levels. It smacks of romanticism. The chief thing that the present day church resembles that the church of the Scriptures reflect is the living reality of Christ in them. So long as there are people who are saved in the church, then today's church resembles the early church in many ways. Yes, there are great departures from the ancient church to today. But, with Christ living in them today just as He did yesterday, there is a much greater resemblance than one presently sees or confesses.

Such a statement is a horrible slap in the face to our brethren and Lord. He lives in them after all.

White Stone wrote:
Your arguments do not hold water.

KingJimmy wrote:
Can you show me Scriptural justification for refusing to fellowship with other believers on the grounds that they are not Spirit-filled enough in their church services? Remember, Paul said some in Corinth were dividing on grounds that they were of Cephas, Barnabas, Paul... and then there were those who were saying they were dividing on grounds that they were "...of Christ!" Paul condemned all as a fit of carnality and immaturity. That includes those who said they were the sect of Jesus!

"We gather around the headship of Jesus Christ alone!" I submit to you in all humility and brotherly love that this is a lie from hell. It's just as divisive as those who say they are of Cephas, Barnabas, Paul, the Baptists, Pentecostals, Presbyterians or whoever. The believer who is truly spiritual, those who Paul calls "the approved among you," are those who can gather together with any group of brethren, no matter their denominational affiliation and no matter their state of spiritual maturity. It is the spiritually immature who pull away from genuine fellowship with other believers simply because they don't quite add up to the stature they think somebody should i.e. Ravenhill's.

If there is total starvation for the Spirit of God how can you prove we must stay or justify the statement below?

Wherever two or three are gathered, He is there. Just because the movement of the Spirit tends to be on the stagnant side when believers gather doesn't mean He's not there. Biblically speaking, He's ALWAYS there so long as His people are. He's just as much there in an out of control Corinthian gathering where the gifts are abused as He is in a church where there is no demonstration of the gifts. Both churches are just as immature spiritually, though perhaps the stagnant church where there is no one-anothering is more fit, because at least they aren't being competitive and rude with the usage of their gifts, and stepping on one anothers toes in order to display their gift.

Wherever the Lord is, the Spirit is. If there are any who are saved at any gathering, then His presence is definitely there. Whether it be in an institutional setting or a house church setting. His presence is there just the same. This is truth. And if Jesus can fellowship with the people in the stagnant church, and still live inside of them, immature as they are, then there is no reason you should ever leave them. Indeed, it is your duty rather as a Christian to stay, and to strengthen the hands of the weak.

Oh, no doubt, your staying and doing things that are unconventional even as they persist in the status quo will probably bother them, and possibly create some conflicts within that church. But such is a cross one must bear. Simply withdrawing from fellowship is nothing more than cross avoidance. It's a cowardly thing to do. And there can be no Pentecost without going through the cross.

I've left two churches in the last ten years because the pastor's lied and manipulated the sheep; well, the first kinda kicked me out because I upset the apple cart as well.

I do know, from personal experience, if you do not go where the Lord can pour out of you, then you are useless to God because we become a stagnant pond. It isn't just about "getting fed" but feeding! And there are many ways to feed. And you don't have to be a seasoned mature Christian to feed either!

I know in the beginning we go to get fed but then we grow from milk to the meat of the word. I essentially get fed by the Spirit at home, I've stopped trying to find a church that feds me. I'm not a baby anymore. I go to share with my fellow brothers and sisters in the Lord.

I don't know what the answer is White Stone and King Jimmy but I know that 1 Corinthians 13 holds the answer... LOVE!! If one side (or person) is NOT doing anything wrong (in our eyes), then why in the world do we need the gift of love? THAT is exactly when we need love.

Jimmy is offering the 1 Cor way. I'm not saying that all churches are run correctly - most are not. But there are souls in them that need help that they may not be getting from the leadership. I'm currently in the same position, asking God about leaving a church but I look at the people who are hungry (to me 'lost sheep') and if God can use me to help them know more of Christ, I want to be there. So I'll wait until the Holy Spirit tells me "move."

Love (beyond what we want) is the answer!

PS: This is what I'm praying about now: We really need to make sure that it is the Lord moving us because I really don't want to stand before Christ and find out God had a plan for me there but I let my pride and fleshly arrogance move me before I knew. This is what I'm dealing with. If everyone else knows that it was God, then that is wonderful.

Love is the answer. Love beyond our understanding.