MUST HEAR: Early Anabaptism Audio Series

Hi Greg,

Thanks for posting about these sermons! I've already downloaded one of them and I'm planning on checking out some of the others.

Jordan

I have listened to part 1 and have found it so inspiring, challenging. I look forward to listening to the others.

Quote by Denny Keneston: "we can seek truth and reality through Christian history." This is what Bible history is all about: it presents truth through history, hence its appeal to people of all ages.

Thanks for posting these audios, Greg.

ginnyrose

thank you for putting them up, the anabaptists passion and life and zeal for true biblical christianity and truth shames me, but encurages me also to press on.

what i love with them is it not only a doctrine or a theory, but life....

so often we hold a certain view, we "refute" calvinism or arminianism ect, yet we dont have the same life in us that those we say have a faulty doctrine, be it wesley,finney or calvin or edwards.

what they had was life... the anabaptists had life..

oh we need life! to quote ravenhill, you think you are spiritual because you get your head overloaded with theology...

oh that jesus life would flow through me !

these are truly gems worth listening and dwelling upon. thank you

so often we hold a certain view, we "refute" calvinism or arminianism ect, yet we dont have the same life in us that those we say have a faulty doctrine, be it wesley,finney or calvin or edwards.

Amen.

A good word brother.

Their is a lot of rich heavenly zeal that can be observed in all of God's children throughout the ages. Despite their lack of perfect theology, God's church has always been perfected in love. I look forward to listening to this series. But, I would caution the listener to be aware of some of the errors of the Anabaptist. It is very dangerous to make the doctrine of justification and sanctification the same thing.

You can read more on this in these articles:

[url=http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/anabapt.htm]The Anabaptists[/url] from Spurgeon.org

[url=http://www.enjoyinggodministries.com/article/19-zwingli-and-anabaptists/]Zwingli and Anabaptists[/url] by Sam Storms

[url=http://www.reformed.org/sacramentology/index.html?mainframe=http://www.reformed.org/sacramentology/lee/index.html]The Anabaptists and their Stepchildren[/url] (history book) by F.N. Lee

I will say Again, It is a very serious error to make the doctrine of Sanctification and Justification the same thing, and I would caution everyone to beware of this error of Anabaptists. It's not something easy to spot out because often it is taught very subtly by them.

Thomas Watson said this,

"THEY ARE NEVER SEPARATED!

(Thomas Watson, "The Lord's Prayer")

"You were sanctified, you were justified."
1 Corinthians 6:11

Justification and sanctification are not the same.

Justification is without us—sanctification is within us.
The one is by righteousness imputed—the other is by
righteousness imparted. Justification is once and for
all—sanctification is gradual. One person is sanctified
more than another—but one cannot be more justified
than another. One has more grace than another—but
he is not more justified than another.

The matter of our justification is perfect, namely,
Christ's righteousness; but our sanctification is
imperfect, there are the spots of God's children. Our
graces are mixed with sin, our duties are defiled.

Thus justification and sanctification are not the same.

Yet, for all that, they are never separated. God never
pardons and justifies a sinner—but He also sanctifies him.
"This is He who came by water and blood, even Jesus
Christ." 1 John 5:6. Christ comes to the soul by blood,
which denotes remission of sin; and by water, which
denotes sanctification. Let no man say he is pardoned,
who is not made holy! This I urge against those who
talk of their sin being forgiven, and having a part in
Christ—and yet remain unconverted, and live in the
grossest sins!

Where God pardons, He purifies. Whoever God forgives,
He transforms. Let no man say his sins are forgiven—who
does not find an inherent work of holiness in his heart.
"I will place My Spirit within you and cause you to follow
My statutes and carefully observe My ordinances."
Ezekiel 36:27"

Charles Spurgeon said this,

"THE WAY OF SELF-RIGHTEOUSNESS!

The following is from Spurgeon's sermon,
"The Old Way of the Wicked" Job 22:15-17.

The unsaved talk of their merits, prayers, and
tears. They will, if they can, find something of
their own in which to trust. They wrap their
miserable rags about them, and claim that
they are well clad. Being fascinated by self
deceit, they imagine that they are rich and
increased in goods when they are naked,
and poor, and miserable. They will not lie
at the feet of Jesus, and receive salvation
as a gift of mercy, pure mercy!

The way of self-righteousness is trodden
by tens of thousands of men. Ah, your church
goings and your chapel goings, your goings to
the sacrament, your baptism, your confirmation,
your ceremonies of all sorts and kinds, your gifts
to the poor, your contributions to charities, your
amiable speeches, your repetitions of your
liturgies, and your prayers; these are rested
on as the rock of your salvation.

Beware, I entreat you, for this is the way of
the Pharisee when he thanked God that he
was not as other men. It is the way of sinful
human nature which always goes about to
establish its own righteousness, and will not
submit itself to the righteousness of Christ.

As surely as the Pharisees were condemned
as a generation of vipers, and could not escape
the damnation of hell, so surely every one of us,
if we set up our righteousness in the place of
Christ's righteousness, will meet with condemnation,
and will be overthrown by God's sudden wrath!"

-Abraham

When the reality of Christ is so strong in my life that men are willing to hunt me down like a dog to tortuously rid the earth of me because my testimony is so repulsive to them in their wickedness, then I will move on to picking apart and condemning them because of their (Anabaptists)theology. Was their theology perfect and right on in every way? I seriously doubt it, but they (in the strength of their movement) were made perfect in love and humility which are the marks and commands of Christ. I have read writings of Calvin that I wonder how He could possibly believe what he wrote, but I still cannot condemn him as this is not my place. We can find fault in anything or anyone, all we need to do is disagree with them and that will feed our critical spirit. I know, because I have spent too many years sidetracked and kept out of the battle with divisive arguments. What a subtle tactic of the enemy to keep us disunified and unloving toward each other and ruins our testimony to the world of what true christianity looks like. Love will cover a multitude of sin. Strive to love perfectly, it is the more excellent way. I love this family that God has given us, thanks Barry

This preacher will not lead you astray. If only we would follow Christ as Kenaston has.

In Christ
Jeff

rookie wrote:
This preacher will not lead you astray. If only we would follow Christ as Kenaston has.

In Christ
Jeff

amen, i am halfway through this series and what riches! so much here, to much to miss. praise God for brother denny and his burden

this is a gift to the church of Christ

Abe_Juliot wrote:
I would caution the listener to be aware of some of the errors of the Anabaptist. It is very dangerous to make the doctrine of justification and sanctification the same thing.

Brother, since Greg has posted this article and apparently many people appreciate and understand Anabaptism, why do you feel the need to inject your negativism and error here?

Anabaptists do not confuse justification with sanctification. Anyone who thinks they do is an opponent without cause who has not taken the time to understand.

I would ask you not to commit this error. There are plenty of threads on Calvinism already on this site dominated by the perspective you are trying to inject here. I believe you are off the original thread topic.

This is a wonderful series, thank you for making them available.

Just bringing this series to the forefront......

In Christ
Jeff

sermonindex wrote:
I would like to hear what brothers and sisters are specifically getting out of this series and some things in it that are blessing them.

Gelassenheit.....

this one was very edifying and challenging to me for "absolute surrender" in all areas of my life.

I just finished listening to part 4, The Foundation Stones of Anabaptism. This was outstanding, from the simple yet often overlooked truth that Jesus doesn't just give us salvation but that He [b]is[/b] salvation, to the convicting and challenging finish on the evangelistic call of the church, this sermon demands some listening, prayer & meditation, and action.

Thanks for posting these, looking forward to the rest in the series.

In Christ,

Ron

I listened to part 2: Theology vs Anabaptist Reality".

A few points:

For the reformers church was a place where you went to to learn how to believe right. The Anabaptist were a people who went to church to learn how to live right.

They believed salvation produces works, life, vibrant and clear.

This segment should be a required listen-to to all who would post here on SI! :-)

ginnyrose

For the reformers church was a place where you went to to learn how to believe right. The Anabaptist were a people who went to church to learn how to live right.

Interesting statement - but simply not historically true. Read the Reformer's sermons, and I think you will see it was more than just abstract theology.

If someone wants to look up to the Anabaptists, they are certainly free to do so, but there is no need to spread false information about anyone, even our enemies.

"I have so much to do that if I didn’t spend at least three hours a day in prayer I would never get it all done." - Martin Luther

Doesn't sound to me like someone who is just full of "head knowledge"...

There is no need to produce some kind of either/or dichotomy between orthodoxy and orthopraxy. This must be a both/and situation. If you just teach people how to "live right", we are nothing more than a Christianized Dr. Phil. If we just teach people how to believe right, but don't care about orthopraxy, we are nothing but vain philosophers. However, if we teach people both how to believe right and how to live right, we will be following the Apostolic model. An overview of Titus 3 shows this. Paul discusses the free grace of the gospel, and that it was not of our own works. Then, he states he wants to Titus to stress these things (theological concepts regarding the Gospel) - so that - people will maintain good works.

With care in Christ,
Taylor

Greg,

Again, you are making some historical assumptions here. The Anabaptists that Calvin and Luther had to contend against were not country people minding their own business. The Anabaptists of yesteryear and the Anabaptists you think of today are not necessarily the same thing.

The Anabaptists were a varied group, and some of them were actually violent.

"In 1534, the Melchiorites, an inflammatory sect of Anabaptists, captured the German city of Münster. They immediately burned all books except the Bible, banned the use of money and seized the property of non-believers. They killed Protestants and Catholics and practiced polygamy and sexual excess. Their leader, John of Leyden, had sixteen wives"

As you can see, the Anabaptist were diverse, and Luther struggled with radical, physically violent Anabaptists during his lifetime.

So, you cannot simply take this quote, and assume Luther was writing against people like Denny Kenaston. There were Anabaptists who were peaceful, loving people, and there were Anabaptists who were radically violent and wicked. They were all called Anabaptists.

To get a historical context for the Anabaptists Luther wrote against, look into the "Peasant's War". If you have seen the movie "Luther" (the new one), they briefly give a picture of the Peasant's War when they show the citizens who are killing people and destroying the Catholic churches, before Luther comes back to Wittenburg.

Strong language is not necessarily a bad thing if it is justified, which it certainly could have been given Luther's experience with violent Anabaptists. Paul told the false teachers of Galatia to cut off their reproductive organs if they were so obsessed with circumcision, which, in my opinion, is pretty harsh.

With care in Christ,
Taylor

To build on what Taylor wrote, I post this exceprt from Schaff's "History of the Christian Church"-

[i]"He(Carlstadt) also denounced pictures and images as dumb idols, which were plainly forbidden in the second commandment, and should be burnt rather than tolerated in the house of God. He induced the town council to remove them from the parish church; but the populace anticipated the orderly removal, tore them down, hewed them to pieces, and burnt them. He assailed the fasts, and enjoined the people to eat meat and eggs on fast-days. He repudiated all titles and dignities, since Christ alone was our Master (Matt. 23:8). [b]He expressed contempt for theology and all human learning, because God had revealed the truth unto babes[/b] (Matt. 11:25), and advised the students to take to agriculture, and earn their bread in the sweat of their face (Gen. 3:19). He cast away his priestly and academic robes, put on a plain citizen’s dress, afterwards a peasant’s coat, and had himself called brother Andrew. He ran close to the border of communism. He also opposed the baptism of infants. He lost himself in the clouds of a confused mysticism and spiritualism, and appealed, like the Zwickau Prophets, to immediate inspirations."[/i]

[i]"These Zwickau Prophets, as they were called, agreed with Carlstadt in combining an inward mysticism with practical radicalism. They boasted of visions, dreams, and direct communications with God and the Angel Gabriel, disparaged the written word and regular ministry, rejected infant baptism, and predicted the overthrow of the existing order of things, and the near approach of a democratic millennium."[/i]

These men were the ones that Luther was writing against, men who were saying that the Spirit told them they didn't need Theology and learning, and that the Spirit told them to kill others.

Obviously the Holy Spirit would not say to kill someone as it is contrary to the Scriptures(leave the Servetus argument alone please).

I bring these things up to give some frame of reference as to what was going on in those times. To bring it closer to home, it would be like some of the false prophets of our day saying all kinds of things and us writing to correct them or warn against them.

Brother Greg this is a serious question that I have.

How is it that Anabaptists get a playing field here so to speak, and that their ideas get encouraged but when myself or others bring up Reformed doctrines, threads get locked?

I understand that this is your place and I have enjoyed being on here these last few years, but when there seems to be an obvious dislike for some parts of Christendom over and above others, is that fair?

If I was to post something regarding the heresies of Arminius(as it was called in his day), or the heresies of Finney(as many called it in his day), it would be shut down very quickly. But there is freedom to attack those who believe in Reformed doctrines?

I just don't see how it is fair to push one group above another if we(Reformed guys and gals) cannot defend ourselves without having threads locked.

Just adding to thread...

King David was a murdering adulterer who went unrepentant for at least nine months.

God still managed to use him.

I have murdered in my heart.

Apart from the grace of God, King David, Martin Luther, or I myself deserve nothing short of Hell.

I fail to see how maligning someone’s past changes things…or nullifies what they have to contribute to our education and understanding.

This works both ways. None are perfect.

This is what I see developing here. Greg posted a set of messages. Soon there was a word of caution and correction to the messages Greg posted. Is that the purpose of sermonindex? Correction and rebuke and contention of what others post? The header says this site is for "promoting genuine biblical revival."

Greg redirected the thread by asking people for what [i]they[/i] were getting from the messages, which is the purpose of the thread, and a few people replied. Then someone's reply received this comment.

TaylorOtwell:
Interesting statement - but simply not historically true.

Again, is that what this thread is supposed to be about? To have people post what they got out of the messages and have others correct them? I think this is better done in a PM. The original poster can offer a correction to what they said, if they decide that they posted something wrong.

roaringlamb wrote:
How is it that Anabaptists get a playing field here so to speak, and that their ideas get encouraged but when myself or others bring up Reformed doctrines, threads get locked?

There are many "reformed" threads going that are not locked. There are many reformed preachers featured on this site. Nobody has any problem with that. Most of us like them. It is threads that turn into debate and contention, when the "reformed" perspective has a mission to correct others that gets threads locked.

I understand that this is your place and I have enjoyed being on here these last few years, but when there seems to be an obvious dislike for some parts of Christendom over and above others, is that fair?

Although Greg does almost all the work here, I think he is pretty free in what he allows. He is still even allowing me to post!

If I was to post something regarding the heresies of Arminius(as it was called in his day), or the heresies of Finney(as many called it in his day), it would be shut down very quickly. But there is freedom to attack those who believe in Reformed doctrines?

I don't think you are seeing the issue rightly. Errors of many groups have been touched on by this site. There are resources on this site that hit on the errors of both Arminians and Anabaptists. We all need to take things in context and in stride. I have not heard anybody cry out that this site was anti much of anything when Paul Washer's sermon was featured. I guess there could have been one, but the idea is to focus on Christ and revival and not debate and correction. This site exists for revival. It is an error to even think it exists to debate and correct others. Post something positive and encouraging.

I just don't see how it is fair to push one group above another if we(Reformed guys and gals) cannot defend ourselves without having threads locked.

Defend yourselves? This is the mistake. You don't need to defend yourselves. When you start doing that, threads get locked. Let the Lord defend. If we try to defend against others the Lord has not spoken to, it causes contentions. Use PM if you need to share your heart with someone. Then no threads will get shut down.

Calvinists and reformers have a strong tendency to correct and debate others, as John Piper rightly admitted. But they are certainly not the only ones! I believe the current cry on this site is to avoid much of the need to debate and correct and convince, because it usually leads to arguing and divisions. A revival site is by definition opposed to any person or group who engages in such anti-revival behavior. Use posts for testimonies and encouragements and requests and what God is doing in your life.

The Lord Jesus said,

[b][color=660000] Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchers of the righteous, And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.[/color][/b]

- Matthew 23:29-31(KJV)

Thanks, ChrisJD, for bringing us back to CHRIST. Apart from Him we are nothing, apart from Him we can do nothing, and apart from Him nothing matters.

So doctrine is secondary to Christ.
Words are secondary to Him.
CHRIST is all and in all...
Know Him and speak words if you have to.

And also,

[b][color=660000] Woe unto you! for ye build the sepulchers of the prophets, and your fathers killed them. Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchers.[/color][/b]

- Luke 11:47-48(KJV)

From King David,

"For I have heard the slander of many: fear [i]was[/i] on every side: while they took counsel together against me, they devised to take away my life...

...Let the lying lips be put to silence; which speak grievous things proudly and contemptuously against the righteous."

- Psalm 31 verses 13 and 18(KJV)

...[i]depart from me therefore, ye bloody men. [/i]

Greetings all,

Dear Ruach34,

All praise and glory be to God Who alone is worthy of praise.

I wanted to suggest if I could, that I think there are at least three warnings in the words of the Lord Jesus that were qouted:

One, of thinking that we are not capable of doing the things that the fathers did.

Two, of perhaps undue honor or attention to those of the past.

And three, and which seems to be very important here, of not doing or saying anything to suggest that we approve of the deeds of those who have killed men and women of God. Even those that He has sent.

I have been going over this series again, thank God for brother denny and his heart, and i strongly recommend those that have not gone through these messages to do so.

Well in that case if the life of the anabaptist is true christianity then I should go back to the charismatics and faith movement becahse there they had life but bad doctrine.
They were radical for Christ.

I think the main reformers such as luther and Zwingli stopped at corret doctrine and the anabaptist where not content with just "head doctrine" and a few changes in the way people "did" church at the time, the anabaptist had a desire to go all the way back to living authentic Christianity as the first christians did as the others (luther etc) had a desire to adapt (reform) christinity into the society keeping childbaptism etc to not "rock the boat" to much. The anabaptists had more of a attitude to follow Christ no matter the cost and they proved it with their lives.

The anabaptist where not perfect nor the reformers, but they set a great example of what a life surrendered to God through faith and obedience can do "they turned the world upside down"

I found a comment on the second to last one, (Early Anabaptism) Reviving the Righteous Root of Anabaptism by Denny Kenaston, very prophetic. A sister at 1:11 says that she is afraid of the long term fruit even for the Charity Fellowship with the effective lifespan of the Anabaptists of only 30 years (1525-1555). She wondered what would happen to them in 2012. We know what has happened, we have heard the testimony of Brother Denny in the recent repentance. I found it very interesting that the comment almost directly after this sister was by a brother serving as a pastor. He makes the comment that the movement will remain if they train their children and have radiant wives. I fear that there has been a substitution of the family for the Body that always looks to the Head that is Jesus Christ. Denny makes the same comment but the proof is in the fruit. It is interesting to hear the later comment by what was then one of the young men. He pledges to press on in the model shown. The anointing was not on him though. I have had the honor of meeting some people like those from Charity and they are very pleasant, kind and generous. However, there are very real reasons God spoke in 1 Corinthians 7 about the cost of being a disciple and being married. It is very easy to go from serving God wholeheartedly to being consumed with the complexities of family life. So the question of whether we really believe the Word comes to the fore.

Link to Brother Denny Kenaston's "Jealous for the Testimony"

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=23771&commentView=itemComments

Jealous for the Testimony of the Lord by Denny Kenaston

Topic: Testimony\t
Description: Brother Denny Kenaston has been diagnosed with stage 4 cancer of the brain. He came back on April 22, 2012 to a church he planted to share the burden of the Lord with them. He confessed many of his failures and sins over the years and humbled himself before the body of Christ.

EDIT: Added link.

Hi Jesus-Is-GOD,

Brother Denny repented for many things in the tape I linked in my last post. Listen to the Godly Home series and you will be able to understand some of the context of comments. In the Godly Home series, Brother Denny goes through the Word and shows what a home of this type should look like and describes the principles by which it operates. The Lord has blessed many people through the ministry of those tapes. They instruct families to turn from the world, practice good biblical discipline, modesty, for husbands to love their wives, wives to submit and so on. Good things. The end result is that the family is elevated very high. Charity Ministries also reach out to the Plain People, Mennonites, Amish, do missions trips in New York and around the world. Brother Denny and the others at the fellowship are strong on holiness and prayer. There is good reason the Lord lead Greg to feature Brother Denny's teaching here because it mirrors the heart of SI. The tapes about family made Brother Denny famous to some extent and gave him opportunity to minister throughout the States and, I think, help found other assemblies similar to Charity. Brother Denny's testimony helps explain the path that brought him to this, in which we see a man arrested by God, supernaturally saved and taught of the Spirit. The message I referred to in my previous post from this series, is the heart of Brother Denny's desire for those involved with Charity, including himself, to have a life that radiates Christ and receives the hatred of the World as its testimony. If you listen through the messages by Brother Denny here on SI, you will hear again and again his love for Christ and his desire to see these people grow into the knowledge of the fullness of Him. At one point, he laments about the nature of Charity's tape ministry. The Godly Home and the tapes regarding raising a family consistently rank at the top but the really God focused, Christ focused tapes get very few requests. In order to meet demand, the less popular tapes are thinned from the catalog.

I have attached the link from the original post to the sermon with the comments. They start at about one hour and eleven minutes into the recording.

(Early Anabaptism) Reviving the Righteous Root of Anabaptism by Denny Kenaston
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=17841&commentView=itemComments

It is important to note the reason why Brother Denny was repenting. He repented because something had taken the place of Christ in his life. He had valued his family higher than it ought to have been and it became an area of pride. He treated the church he helped found as his own rather than Christ's and in his desire for recognition competed in his heart against brothers in other like minded assemblies for the largest numbers which is to say he did that for his own glory rather than the LORD's. In his service to this group through out the country he did not always do it as unto to the Lord so a way was opened for loathing and bitterness to root. We can see that the reason Brother Denny was repenting was because he saw that he had not done everything for the glory of God. Is what he did of no use to the Lord? No, because even Paul praises the Lord for those who preached Christ for impure motives. From what I can tell, Brother Denny has taught more for the glory of God but he is aware that as one saved by the grace of God that a little leaven leavens the whole lump. Even though the people he has been in fellowship with did not recognize what was happening does not mean it was not present. The reason I pointed out the brother's comments from the Anabaptists' tapes was because he articulated what I meant. He stated that if he kept to the Godly Home teachings, it would all be alright. The problem with that is that to focus on one's own family in realizing a system is to not focus on Christ. It is for this same reason referred to the statement by Denny about the tape ministry. An easy way understand this is to see it as a present analogy of what happened with Christ at the feeding of the five thousand in John 5. The people wanted to make Christ Jesus their king because He met their physical need. But Christ told them no, He would not because rather than lead them, they must follow Him. One is the democratic mindset that is focused on one's self whereas following Christ is focused on Him for Himself. There is also the issue that Christ chooses those who are His. We do not make Him king, He is the king whether we agree or not. The people tried to make Brother Denny a type of king.

Its true what he is saying its should not only be theology but also reality.

bump

Bump up for brother Bear,

http://www.radicalreformation.com/sermons/by-speaker