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The International House of Prayer Onething Conference "ESCHATOLOGICAL REVOLUTION!" (video).

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davidt

I believe there are some special messages spoken at this conference mainly by Mike Bickle. The meeting has already past however the archived videos are available. This conference was much different then the others. Usually there is an emphasis on intimacy, prayer, and other things with breakout sessions and popular speakers and singers from various places. This time however that did not occur it was more solemnly and singly focused on the end times and preparing for such times and the "true" end times message was proclaimed. What I mean by that is specifically the time is at hand even at the door, the Church will go through the tribulation so we must prepare now like John the Baptist did for Jesus' first coming, we need to stand with Israel, and so forth.

[url=http://38.100.176.140/vod/pl/otarch.html]click here[/url]

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KingJimmy

Looks like Art Katz might have rubbed off on Mike Bickle a bit?

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TaylorOtwell

Frankly, I'm confused. I don't know what people mean when they say we should "stand with Israel".

I'm not sure why we should treat them any differently than we treat other earthly nations. We treat them with respect and dignity. However, I don't think many Christians are accepting the fact that modern day Judaism is an apostate, idolatrous religion, which would actually be sinful to support.

It seems to me that not heeding Paul's writings to Galatia and Ephesus is producing false definitions of Israel.

That being said, I do hope for a large turning to Christ amongst the ethnic Jews.

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davidt

Jimmy,

Yes I am sure to some degree if not substantially. I know that he would come and speak here at IHOP sometimes and that that has been since the early days and there are other ties. David Pawson is another guy I believe the revelation series by him here on SI is from when he spoke in KC. I would say mainly though that the Lord taught him. I myself had sought God for quite a while and longingly and even though I was in a major Tim Lahaye type pre trib setting I came to have the scripture clearly opened to me. Even with Israel I had started to tend toward replacement theology and just not really caring but I knew in my heart what was right and the word is blunt on the matter so as I was ready I learned the importance of the elect people and am. So I would think the Mike also learned the same way as He went deep in God and it was shown to him for there is a spiritual war behind this. The genuine believers who seek God and don't compromise will understand and hopefully as the day draws near it will increase and the bride will know how to make herself ready.

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davidt

Taylor,

Thank you for your comment and concern... I am going to write kind of straight forward to to communicate clearly so please do not be offened by anything.

This can be a difficult subject. I believe we should approach it with humility especially because it must largely be learned spiritually. If anything I believe that we have lost a centralized vision for the Jews and a passion for them. I believe that this goes against the secular mind in that it is labeled racist and other things. I believe it goes against the heart that is filled with an anti Christ spirit even in Christians. I take this stance because the scripture do. I still have some learning to do and have some gray areas but I will convey what I do comprehend.

God chose Abram, and Israel, and David, and so forth and made promises to them that are still to be fulfilled. He did not choose them because they were great but because they were weak. God's original plan is to work through Israel to be a light to the world however it is not happening that way right now but if there falling away means reconciliation how much more there return. They have blessed us in spiritual ways carrying the scriptures and bearing the Messiah so we are to bless the naturally. Even when Israel was rebellious God still rebuked nations for not treating them the way that He wanted. God even now is preserving His people and placed them in their land so that they will remain a people. So if God is blessing them at least to a degree then we also should. If Jesus was so passionate about their salvation and Paul was and the whole reason for Him turning to us was to make them jealous then we also should be zealous for them almost even that we would be accursed from Christ in intercession for them for we must remember that the gospel is first to the Jew. This is God's prophetic will and so I must stand with it and share God's heart. We have forgotten how central Israel is to Christianity look at how many of the biblical authors were Jewish look at how focused God has been on them throughout history and it has not changed there is no such thing a an Old and New Testament God He is the same. I am sure there is more I could write and I have written without planning it out but I hope this will suffice.

[edit] p.s. I believe if you search through some of Art Kats sermons you should be able to find some solid topical messages on this topic.

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TaylorOtwell

David,

Thank you for the kind reply.

I guess the main difference between us would be that I find the true Israel and the promises to be fulfilled by faith, and Paul states, that though it is a great mystery, the Gentiles are included in this.

Maybe one case study would be to look at how Peter interprets
the promise to rebuild the fallen house of David. I believe this is
in Acts 2, but I am on my phone and don't have a Bible nearby (edit: way off. It is in Acts 15:16-17).

Another passage to consider would be in Ephesians where Paul tells Gentile that they once were aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, but are such no longer, this implying they are part of the true Israel.

With care in Christ,
Taylor

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davidt

Taylor,

This is one of the difficult things that I was talking about.

I know we are called sons of Abraham and circumcised at heart and one with them but that is about as far as I would go we are nowhere called explicitly Israel and I think that is to make a distinction though there is much commonality.

Paul states in Romans that God has not utterly cast away Israel and that He would restore them and they are mentioned in Revelation distinct from the Church that is mentioned early on.

So there are some sticky things. There is Israel and then there is true Israel. There is natural Israel and then there is spiritual Israel. I think though that natural Israel has a spiritual advantage and prominence and so in that they are to be emphasized. The natural and the spiritual has been tied together to an extent but not totally. So I try to keep it simple as I find it hard to find words to clearly portray as I ought but hopefully I am getting my thought across.


Is there anyone else out there that would like to input on Israel? Specifically but not exclusively on the reasons and ways we are to be for Israel.

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davidt

I also wanted to mention this page since it has free resources on the end times like sermons and articles with 100 most FAQ's and so forth.

[url=http://ihop.org/Group/Group.aspx?ID=1000036187]click here[/url]

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davidt

"Has God forsaken His people?" Michael Brown ICN Ministries:


Some things are non-negotiable. God’s covenant with Israel is one of them. How could He have made Himself more clear?

He gave His oath to Abram, and reiterated it six more times to Abraham, to his son Isaac and to his grandson Jacob. On one occasion, “When God made His promise to Abraham, since there was no one greater for Him to swear by, He swore by Himself” (Heb. 6:13).

Why did God speak so decisively? It was because He “wanted to make the unchanging nature of His purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, [so] He confirmed it with an oath’ (Heb. 6:17). God Who cannot lie bound Himself by an oath!

His covenant with Israel was reiterated through Moses, repeated by the prophets and rehearsed by the psalmists. Jesus Himself affirmed it (Matt. 19:28), Paul articulated it (Rom. 9-11) and the gates of the New Jerusalem announce it forever (Rev. 22:11-12). God has chosen Israel as His covenant people.

What if Israel broke the covenant? What would then happen to them? Listen to these unmistakably clear truths: “Though I completely destroy all the nations among which I scatter you, I will not completely destroy you. I will discipline you but only with justice; I will not let you go entirely unpunished” (Jer. 30:11). God will completely destroy other nations, but He will not completely destroy Israel! He treats His people differently from other people; they are judged more strictly, but they will never be wiped out.

No matter what Israel does, God will never forsake them as a distinct people. In Jeremiah 31:31-34, the Lord declares that He will make a new covenant with Israel and Judah. But He doesn’t stop there. It’s as if He’s saying, “Now, don’t get me wrong! Don’t think that this new covenant means that I’m abandoning My people. No!”

This is what the LORD says, He who appoints the sun to shine by day, who decrees the moon and stars to shine by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar – the LORD Almighty is His name: “Only if these decrees vanish from My sight,” declares the LORD, “will the descendants of Israel ever cease to be a nation before Me.” This is what the LORD says: “Only if the heavens above can be measured and the foundations of the earth below be searched out will I reject all the descendants of Israel because of all they have done,” declares the LORD (Jer. 31:35-37).

As long as there is a sun, moon, stars, earth, and sea, there will be a distinct people of Israel – no matter what they do. It’s God’s promise! It’s true!

“Is not Ephraim my dear son, the child in whom I delight? Though I often speak against him, I shall remember him. Therefore My heart yearns for him, I have great compassion for him,” declares the Lord (Jer. 31:20)

Look at how relevant God’s prophetic word is to our day and age. For centuries the Church, in arrogance, because of ignorance, claimed that she alone was the true Israel, that she had replaced the ancient covenant people. The Church taught that it was the Christians alone who were the true Jews. (How strange that these Christians were not claiming to be Jewish during the Holocaust!) The Church taught emphatically that the physical people of Israel (those who were ethnically Jewish and those who joined the nation through conversion to Judaism) were eternally rejected.

This is not some worn-out old doctrine. It is on the increase again in our day. Yet the Lord is not surprised. Twenty-five hundred years ago, He already addressed this issue:

The word of the LORD came to Jeremiah: “ Have you not noticed that these people are saying, ‘The LORD has rejected the two kingdoms He chose?’ So they despise My people and no longer regard them as a nation. This is what the LORD says: ‘If I have not established My covenant with day and night and the fixed laws of heaven and earth, then I will reject the descendants of Jacob and David My servant and will not choose one of his sons to rule over the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. For I will restore their fortunes and have compassion on them’ ” (Jer. 33:23-26)

People are still murmuring against Israel and despising the people and the nation.

God’s answer is still the same: “I will never reject them!”

What exactly did God promise Abraham and his descendants? How long are His promises good? Psalm 105 has the answer for us.

He remembers His covenant forever, the word He commanded for a thousand generations, the covenant He made with Abraham, the oath He swore to Isaac. He confirmed it to Jacob as a decree, to Israel as an everlasting covenant: “To you I will give the land of Canaan as the portion you will inherit” (Ps. 105:8-11).

Did God make himself clear? The Scriptures speak of God’s covenant, the word He commanded, His oath which He confirmed as a decree forever, for a thousand generations, as an everlasting covenant. The Lord is trying to make a point!

Not only did He promise to bless Abraham and make him into a great nation; not only did He promise to multiply his seed; not only did He promise to make him the father of many nations; not only did He promise to bless those who blessed him and curse those who cursed him; He also promised Abraham the land of Canaan, with clearly defined borders, as an everlasting inheritance to his natural descendants – until this earth is no more.

Amazingly, some teachers have tried to get out of this perpetual land promise to Israel. They claim that in the New Testament, neither Jesus nor the apostles ever reiterate this particular aspect of the covenant. But why should they reiterate it? When almost all of the New Testament was being written, about one million Jews were living in the Land, Jerusalem was the spiritual and national capitol and the Temple was still standing. And Jesus made it clear that, despite Jerusalem’s soon-coming destruction – a destruction that would last “until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled” – He would come back to a Jewish Jerusalem (Luke 21:24; Matt. 23:37-39). Obviously Jews would be in the Land!

But there is another reason why Jesus and the apostles did not explicitly stress the land promise to their people. The specifics of God’s covenant with the patriarchs were so clearly stated in the Scriptures that it would have been a waste of words to repeat them all! David Brown, the respected nineteenth century Bible commentator, was correct when he said: “What is permanent in the kingdom of God under the Old Testament is PRESUMED in the New.”

And let all believers who question Israel’s rights to the Land, based on the New Testament, take note of this: The New Testament doesn’t state that Israel would be exiled from the Land either! Both of these Old Testament truths, Israel’s scattering and Israel’s regathering, are presumed in the New.

The covenant God made with Israel is just like the covenant He made with David. The Lord declared to David that He would establish a lasting dynasty for him. He gave this promise to David’s son who would succeed him on the throne:

When he does wrong, I will punish him with the rod of men, with floggings inflicted by men. But My love will never be taken away from him, as I took it away from Saul, whom I removed from before you. Your house and your kingdom will endure forever before Me; your throne will be established forever (2 Sam. 7:14-16)

What a wonderful word! In spite of David’s terrible sin and Solomon’s tragic backsliding, in spite of the godlessness of Davidic kings like Ahaz and Manasseh, the kingdom would never be taken from his physical descendants.

When the kingdom was divided and God gave Jeroboam the ten northern tribes, He did so to humble David’s descendants, “but not forever” (1 Kin. 11:39). He still left one tribe with the sons of David, “so that David My servant may always have a lamp before Me in Jerusalem, the city where I chose to put My Name” (1 Kin. 11:36). The King of kings and Lord of lords is a direct descendant of David! God was faithful to keep His word to David, and He is just as faithful to keep His word to Israel.

His covenant with Abraham is just as unconditional and everlasting as His covenant with David. Read Genesis 15 carefully. In ancient days, that is how covenants were made. Sacrificial animals were cut in two and their severed bodies placed in two lines. Both parties entering into the covenant would then walk between the carcasses. By doing so they were symbolically saying, “If I break this binding agreement, if I fail to uphold my side of the pact, then let me suffer the same fate that these animals have suffered.” But something was different in Genesis 15. Only God passed through the pieces! This was a one-way deal (see Gen. 15:17-21)

The Land belonged to other nations. But at the proper time it would be given to Abraham’s seed. If they violated the terms of the covenant – especially as expressed through Moses – then they would be punished and even driven temporarily from the Land. But just as God’s word to David stands firm, His word to Abraham endures, no matter what Israel does. This is what He said through Moses. When the Israelites are

…in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them or abhor them so as to destroy them completely, breaking My covenant with them. I am the LORD their God. But for their sake I will remember the covenant with their ancestors whom I brought out of Egypt in the sight of the nations to be their God. I am the LORD (Lev. 26:44-45; see also Deut. 4:27, 30-31)

Even today, when “As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on [our] account; [yet] as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable” (Rom. 11:28-29). Could anything be more plain?

Right now the great majority of the Jewish people are our “enemies” as far as the gospel is concerned. They reject our message (the Orthodox Jews reject it most strongly), and some even actively oppose it. As individuals, they forfeit their covenant blessings when they turn from Jesus the Messiah. But as a people, they are still elect and loved “on account of the patriarchs.” Otherwise, God’s promises have no meaning and election has no significance. “Abraham, I’m swearing by Myself, I’m putting My reputation on the line. I will bless your offspring always – no matter what. (But I may replace them with someone else one day!)” That is not the Lord that we serve.

God’s covenant with Abraham is just as unconditional and everlasting as His covenant with the Church. The Lord “saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of His mercy” (Titus 3:5). Praise God, we were chosen by grace! But we are not the only recipients of the Lord’s unmerited favor. To Israel, Moses said:

The LORD did not set His affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples. But it was because the LORD loved you and kept the oath He swore to your forefathers that he brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the land of slavery, from the power of Pharaoh king of Egypt (Deut. 7:7-8).

Sounds familiar, doesn’t it? God’s covenants with Israel and with the Church are based on His promise, not our performance.

Old Testament Israel and the New Testament Church both stood, and still stand, by grace. Both received God’s eternal promises. Together we make up the family of God: The faithful ones of Israel and the chosen ones from every nation become one new man out of the two, one body, one people. “For through Him [Jesus!] we both have access to the Father by one Spirit” (Eph. 2:18). Great is the wisdom of God.

This is not what the Muslims believe. It is a fundamental tenet of the Koran that both Israel and the Church failed. Moses was a prophet. Jesus was a prophet. But Muhammad was the seal of the prophets, the messenger of the final revelation. The Jews are not the people of God – they failed! The Christians are not the people of God – they failed! It is Muslims who are the people of God.

Of course, this is preposterous. But, in the event that you are still uncertain about the calling of Israel, consider this simple truth: If God could forsake Israel, in spite of His unconditional, everlasting promises, then He could forsake the Church! If God could replace Israel, in spite of His unconditional, everlasting promises, then He could replace the Church! So, if you hold to a theology that says, “God has forsaken physical Israel,” or “The Church has replaced Israel,” you had better be extremely careful.

Maybe the Koran is right!


When I was reading this article this verse came to mind, "Rom 11:28-29 As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance."

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davidt

Jimmy, I like the Ben Israel's home page pic.

http://www.benisrael.org/images/sign2_wjmn.jpg

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sermonindex

IHOP is a movement that has largely embraced "another spirit" and promotes some really "out there" false prophecies -not to mention their endorsement of false revivals and their past affiliation with men such as Todd Bentley.

I have been to a couple IHOP churches personally and in one I discerned a strong evil presence of demons of sexual perversion, and this was confirmed by the fact that many people in that church had sexual struggles. In another, there was a strange spirit, I think it was divination or something of the sort, and the spiritual presence of it was mystic and creepy. The place was not filled with the Holy Spirit.

Look, most of what they "SAY" might be good, but the issue is the SPIRIT behind what they are saying that is infecting people with demonic bondages. I would strongly warn anyone who is in any way absorbing the stuff that IHOP puts out to get away from it immediately and to seek Christ.

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davidt

Sorry about making so many posts about this topic I guess but I have just been coming upon these resources progressively. So here is an audio message from Michael Brown that is actually called "stand with Israel". I believe this is a pretty well layed out message from a man that specializes in this area and more so then my self specifically at this point.

[url=http://www.icnministries.org/israel/audio.htm]click here[/url]

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savannah

The Roots of Christian Zionism Part I, The Cause of the Conflict
Charles E. Carlson Dec 08, 2008

America’s war based economy depends on Christians’ support Christian Zionists, by whatever name, are the primary public enablers of serial wars upon Islamic states. Why? Because they have been conditioned to think of Islam as an anathema to them, much as many of us were trained to consider communists our ideological enemies a generation ago. Most Christian celebrity media leaders have allowed themselves to be used as propagandists against Islamic states with independent governments, including Iraq, Palestine, Afghanistan, Somalia, Bosnia, and in the future, Islamic states of Iran and Sudan. Our purpose is to examine why and how this has been done, why it is wrong and what can be done to correct it.

The Christian Right’s world war on Islam was observed as early as 1983, and became official in 1991 with the first destruction on Iraq. Only Christian Zionists (known by many names) believe war is an inevitable part of their religion, so they do little to resist it. Due to this un-Christ like error, they have become the primary cause of our conflict, a conflict that has become perpetual.

Christian Zionists, by whatever name, are the only remaining faction of any size that supports the war in Iraq. Therefore, they are largely responsible for the economic and social disaster, and due to the distortion of their own faith, they are the seeds of their own destruction. We find them among our friends, families and associates. This is a problem because we can not just turn our back on Christian Zionists, despise them, and call them fools; they are among our best friends, bosses, even our wife or children, so we need to learn to deal with them. In their formidable numbers we find them our best hope for the positive change from the warmaking state.

Endless wars always have, and always will result in the destruction of both the morality and the currency of the aggressor and are historically destructive to religious freedom. High priced gasoline and food can be accurately laid at the feet of those few industrialists and politicians who see war in their own interest. They deceive Christian Zionists, making them enablers, believing that war is necessary to their faith. Judeo-Christians can be easily swayed to support conflict, so long as a Muslim is on the receiving end of our bombs and bullets, and so long as the state of Israel is perceived to benefit from it.

I am in no way excusing cowardly Congressmen for knuckling under to the war lobby. We know some few gain a lot financially from war, and work for it. But these professional Warmakers are far too mercenary to believe that a God controls their eternal destiny. I also do not dismiss the influence of Jewish Zionists, who consider war in the Middle East in their national interest. But for every Jewish Zionist in America there are ten or twenty Christian Zionists doing the work of the former.

It is my belief, as a follower of Jesus Christ, that Christians who turn from Jesus’ words, “Blessed are the peacemakers, and love your brother…even your enemies, as you love yourself”…these “Christians” deserve the hottest places in hell, as Dante put it. For if those who claim they follow Christ fail to stand for justice and protection of the innocent, who will?

Change can only come from understanding the Roots of Christian Zionism. To this end it is urgent that all Americans of all religions understand why Christian Zionists believe what they do. Those who try to follow Christ need to rescue decent souls to more orthodox Christianity, one by one.

Most Christian Zionists don’t know they are Zionists and might deny it. They usually describe themselves as Evangelicals, Dispensationalists, pre-Millennialists, or a “Born Again Christian.” Very few are comfortable with the radical elements of Christian Zionism if they stop to think about it, but they do not. Their church is to most, a comfortable social outlet, especially for their families, and a society that they desire. Their societal links are much better defined than the theological ones which most do not understand and can not recite.

Restoring the walk to Jesus’ Way can save America.

If Christian Zionism can be correctly exposed as a warring religion, America may be restored to peace, justice, and at least to some of the prosperity which we have lost. Many of us are all beginning to suffer economic distress as a result of the very wars Christian Zionists have supported, supposedly because these wars please God and are necessary for Jesus’ return to earth.

At the apex of the Christian Zionist sect (which is only 100 years old) are leaders who include media personalities such as John Hagee, Rod Parsley, Pat Robertson and the late Jerry Falwell, Benny Hinn, Joyce Meyer, and hundreds more. Each has openly expressed the view that war upon Islamic states is necessary and welcome. Currently, most of these call for America’s next planned serial war against Iran. Sudan is also on the war agenda.

Dispensational bible students can be found in almost any church of any denomination because of the effectiveness of radio churches and giant international bible studies in homes and churches that transcends denominational descriptions. For instance, some Roman Catholics, Episcopalians and Lutherans are Christian Zionists because of their outside Bible studies and are ignoring the contradictions to orthodox Christianity espoused by their own church. In this sense, Christian Zionism is a disease or a parasite upon orthodox or traditional Christianity.

The sixty-four dollar question is how do you identify a Christian Zionist, and how do you know if you are one? We have developed a 10 word litmus test that is non-invasive and usually welcome, so you can ask any churchgoer without hurting his feelings or starting an argument: "Do you believe the state of Israel is the fulfillment of biblical prophesy?"

Tens of millions of Americans need to face this question, for if they believe Israel is the fulfillment of biblical prophesies, then where does Jesus fit in? Simply stated, either Jesus or Israel is the fulfillment of the prophecies of the Old Testament, but there is not room in Christianity for both. If you have been taught that political Israel is in any way involved in your spiritual life, you are infected!

Orthodox or traditional Christians have always believed that Jesus, not Israel is the correct answer. Only Christian Zionism (by definition) assumes that political Israel is in God’s plan for the future, and that in spite of its intolerance, racism, and constant wars, political Israel is the chosen people of God.

Today about one-third of the 210 million American adults who identity themselves in polls and census as Christians, are influenced by Christian Zionism. That is about 70 million, most of whom vote, making Christian Zionists the most powerful and coveted voting block in the world, as can be clearly seen during an election year, translating into some 26 million votes! This means they are much coveted by every political candidate.

The most obvious example was John McCain’s reckless pursuit of Christian Right support that had led him to gross embarrassment at the pulpit of both maniacal Zionists, John Hagee and Rod Parsley, both of whom call for nuclear destruction of Iran.

The teachings of Jesus Christ inescapably demand peace and love of one’s neighbors. This has been America’s one badge of righteousness. In the mid-19th Century, America’s churches led the cry for peace in a world where wars were all too common. It was later, at the turn of the 20th Century that Christian Zionism first took root.

The French author Alexis deTocqueville wrote of churches while he traveled here in the first third of the 19th Century. He sang the praises of America’s invulnerable strength and spirit which he attributed to our citizens sense of morality, and even to the abundant church attendance he observed in America, which of course he would not find in his native France.

DeTocqueville wrote: “America is great because she is good, and if America ever ceases to be good, she will cease to be great.” He could not know that the churches he saw as the source of conscience were under a moral attack aimed at the very sense of justice he observed within them.

War seeds immorality
The first attack on the churches came with the War Between the States in 1861-65, which scarred the sense of justice and morality and diminished and divided churches as only a brutal war can. The terrible slaughter called the War Between the States taught moral Christian men about mass killing. But it did not change their New Testament Bible; it simply allowed men to ignore it.

The most powerful theological attack on Christianity came from Oxford University Press in England, which in 1908 published a false and intentionally misleading reference Bible called the Scofield Reference Bible aimed at creating a new religion, with the future state of Israel a semi-God in it. The term “dispensationalism” was taken from Scofield’s book, and is an assault on orthodox Christianity. Oxford did not just publish the book; it promoted it into the key places of study in America where opinion could be molded to cloud the peacemaking tradition of Christianity.

Most pastors and teachers were unaware of any danger. A few foresaw the consequences of the heresy that to most seemed foolish, outlandish, and embarrassing. Few guessed it would come to dominate American Christianity when in 1948 the State of Israel came into existence.

This new religion that chose the friendly pseudonym “evangelicalism” is the topic of our discussion. Religion scholars on both sides often identified it as “Dispensationalism” or “Pre-millennialism,” and “Judeo-Christianity” which are popular synonyms. We will presently explain some of these changes in detail, but first I want to show you how world-Zionism sold its stepchild to Christians.

The World Zionist movement was in full charge toward occupying Arab Palestine by 1913. It was given a huge financial and promotional boost through Oxford University Press in England, which to the amazement of Biblical scholars published a new bible of Christian Zionism in 1908 called the Scofield Reference Bible. This book would be used as the launching pad for a methodical and spiritually deceptive growth of the new sect. Its leading was to be subtly used to help lure America into two unnecessary world wars.

Not all mainline Christians were asleep.

One of the few who saw the warmaking and heretical danger of the new sect, and actually called it “Zionism” was a well-known attorney, Phillip Mauro, turned scholar, who wrote a brilliant critique of the new cult in his 1927 book, Gospel of the Kingdom. Mauro wrote:

“Through a recent occurrence I was made aware of the extent- far greater than I had imagined – to which the modern system of dispensationalism has found acceptance amongst orthodox Christians; and also the extent- correspondingly great- to which the recently published “Scofield Bible” (which is the main vehicle of the new system of doctrine referred to) has usurped the place of authority that belongs to God’s Bible alone.”

Mauro went on:
“Let it be understood at the outset that my controversy is solely with the doctrine itself and not at all with those who hold and teach it, or any of them. Indeed I was myself of their number for so long a time that I can but feel a tender consideration and a profound sympathy likewise, for all such.”

Phillip Mauro has been an encouragement to your writer, and to all those who support We Hold These Truths. He was a dedicated scholar with an engineer’s logic, and a lawyer’s tenacity that allowed him to foresee errors in 1927, that many like myself took five decades to recognize.

This writer must admit and echo Mauro’s confession; for I, too, was “of their number” and like Mauro, I share “profound sympathy” for those caught up in dispensationalism. As his words suggest, we are not fighting Christian Zionists; we are trying to reclaim them.

Dr. F. Furman Kearley was another who saw the path to war in the errors of dispensationalism. He was head of graduate studies at Adeline Christian University in 1983 when he wrote of Christian Zionism’s evil fruit of perpetual war in the Middle East. His short book, The Middle East Crisis in Biblical Perspective, takes sharp issue with those he calls Israel First Millennialists. He names radical prophet Hal Lindsay, and the late Jerry Falwell, whom he said would lead us into endless war with Islamic states.

Kearley noted: “When the concept of Armageddon, as in Revelation 16:16 is raised, those who believe in a literal war at Armageddon often feel that Christians should work to start this war, and should vigorously participate in it. Those in particular who view this present situation as Armageddon…believe that Christians should support Israel with vigor and urge our government to take an active part in the conflict in the Middle East.”

Kearley saw Christian Zionist’s support of Israel’s brutal occupation of Palestine as a precursor to more war in the Middle East. He concludes:
“One needs to be absolutely certain that the doctrine he follows is God’s and not of men before he advocates a doctrine that would put the blood of other men on our hands.”

Dr. F. Furman Kearley explains the neo-Christians’ love affair with war as a religious fixation, correctly stating: “Christians must (as a matter faith) pray for peace in the Middle East. Premillenialists must pray and work for World War III, so Armageddon will come. They cannot pray for peace.”

If a follower of Christian Zionism would only examine the simple teaching of Jesus in the New Testament he will find not a single passage or phrase that would give a follower of Christ cause to take the life of another man, or another man’s child. Certainly we must not kill a man’s wife in a far away country. No such permission exists.-End Part I

URL http://whtt.org/index.php?news=2&id=2724


In Part II: We examine the bitter fruit of Christian Zionist's error...how followers of Christ were detoured to accept a false and anti-Jesus doctrine of Christian Zionism that leads to the death of millions in the name of Christianity.

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KathleenP

I must humbly say that in all due respect to the zeal to that is displayed here on behalf of the Jews and the prophecies concerning their time of salvation, we must be very discerning as to when this time will be.

As our dear Brother Art Katz stated, they are at a place of self sufficiency and self righteousness that only a great breaking will deliver them from. Are we "prophetic" minded saints ready to watch Jerusalem become leveled and destroyed? Are we aware enough of the need to cause great distress among them so they can receive the love of the truth? When Jerusalem is laid in heaps and the modern prophets scratch their heads in wonder because they did noy realize that modern Jerusalem was not rebuilt by righteous godly men as in the days of Nehemiah and Ezra.

Only by a great humbling will the Jewish nation begin to seek their Messiah and we must be the priestly nation that the word declares His people to be in order to present to them the true gospel of godliness and repentence. The Lord is rebuilding and refining a holy people and it must people patterned according to His word and not man's portrayel of holiness. I have a sincere desire to see the salvation of the Jews, but it can ONLY be done the Lord's way.

In light of all this, I must agree with Josef_Urban concerning the Call and Mike Bickle. Dear saints, I have stated before that messages that Art Katz had spoken before their congretion rebuked them for their loud music and "modern" trappings. We were never meant to be a "with it church in a "with it" world.

I have discerned the sexual spirits surrounding the congregation and spirits of sorcery and witchcraft. I am not a child in this sort of knowledge and I do not intend to speak this to cause strife. In malice we are to be children, but in knowledge we are to be men. I cannot support this organization in all good conscience because of what I see spiritually, reguardless of the zeal displayed.

For some reason, even the word "revolution" echos of rebellion to me. I am concerned.

Sincerely in Christ Jesus, Kathleen

T
TroyorTakoda

Frankly, I'm confused. I don't know what people mean when they say we should "stand with Israel". I'm not sure why we should treat them any differently than we treat other earthly nations. We treat them with respect and dignity. However, I don't think many Christians are accepting the fact that modern day Judaism is an apostate, idolatrous religion, which would actually be sinful to support.

Have you seen my post on human rights in Gaza?

T
TroyorTakoda

Very good stuff, Savannah. I bookmarked that link. I am going to a Gaza protest this Friday, so please pray that it will open up some doors for me to minister to my Muslim friends.

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davidt

Josef,

IHOP is a movement that has largely embraced "another spirit" and promotes some really "out there" false prophecies -not to mention their endorsement of false revivals and their past affiliation with men such as Todd Bentley.

This whole topic has been covered before but I will take this opportunity to share some things that I believe have not been said from my own personal perspective. I know what IHOP is to a somewhat large extent as I have experienced it first hand for a while and have studied about it. I have a whole personal testimony to go along with it that I will not mention at this time.

You say they are of another spirit but somewhat of note I would like to say that this is a ministry that both Leonard Ravenhill and Art Katz have been a friend of since its beginnings even til their deaths to a somewhat substantial level. And so in this I mention possibly your own prophets. This is not even to mention the vast fruit that is being produced in the lives of saints.

The claim you make here as you know is a very severe things and is either slander or an exhortation that should be heeded and so I think you should take good care in making such a statement and in light of that I will respond.

I don't know exactly which far out prophecies you are talking about so I can neither receive nor respond to that. I am sure there is some error in some places which is often the case with Christians and ministries. I can say though that I have listened to the encountering Jesus series about the prophetic history of IHOP and am somewhat persuaded recently that it is sound and probably true. From what I understand Andrew Strom confirmed its accuracy though he thinks it is now off the rails.

If you are talking about Brownsville and Toronto I believe that is debatable and cant say much since my exposure to it is limited especially because I was not yet a Christian when it was occuring and did not even hear of it til a good time later. From what I understand good things have come out of it though like joy in the Lord and laughter, intimacy and soaking in the presence of the Lord, fire fervency repentance and revival, Gladstone and Brown ect. As for Lakeland I do not think IHOP ever said it was a great end time revival like others had and it was not substantially effectual in the community. I also do not have much to say about Lakeland as I did not receive anything from it.


I have been to a couple IHOP churches personally and in one I discerned a strong evil presence of demons of sexual perversion, and this was confirmed by the fact that many people in that church had sexual struggles. In another, there was a strange spirit, I think it was divination or something of the sort, and the spiritual presence of it was mystic and creepy. The place was not filled with the Holy Spirit.

If you have not been to KC you do not know that half of it. There are many places that take on the name and even the form but most places I am sure are very far from what it is like in KC. The IHOP leadership has made it a point that they are not starting a denomination and so all the hop's out there are running independently. So it is as if some random Church just started to pray and that is about the extent of the similarities with some mimicked forms. So any comparison that you make cannot be taken into account therefore you must see these as distinct.

When it comes to your spiritual discernment I cannot confirm it since it is largely subjective to you. Often people have personality errors that skew their supposed prophetic seeing whether it be legalism or lasciviousness or a number of things though I am not specifically saying that this is the case with you.

The fact that you state someone was in sexual sin would not necessarily mean that he congregation it compromised. Especially I mean if it is a visitor or light attendee or even a struggling brother or sister in weakness or maturity or a temporary snare.

I think it also hard to say that the Holy Spirit was not in the room as I can personally attest that often I would be in the presence of the Holy Spirit while the congregation around me did not discern it except possibly through me.

Once again you may have felt creepy because of your pre conditional prejudices that produced an emotional response. And even if this congregation were compromised it does not mean that KC is in fact IHOP emphasizes holiness emphatically.


Look, most of what they "SAY" might be good, but the issue is the SPIRIT behind what they are saying that is infecting people with demonic bondages. I would strongly warn anyone who is in any way absorbing the stuff that IHOP puts out to get away from it immediately and to seek Christ.

It says in first John that we can know if someone is of a false spirit if they confess false doctrine like Jesus did not come in the flesh. It can also be turned around in that if one speaks the truth then they are of a true spirit and I know that is not always the case. When it comes to IHOP they speak "much" truth and very much more so then the majority of the Church. Holiness against pornography is regularly spoken of authoritatively and importantly in light of human trafficking and having eyes for the Lord and an inner lamp of light, WOTM evangelism and hell fire preaching, apostolic foundations and the knowledge of the Holy, true eschatology,revival prayer and intimacy, and a whole mass of other things.

As for demonic bondages in contrast there is much fruit being born in raising up fasting, faith filled, fervent, forerunners. I attended an internship and it was like a boot camp. I never had any free time and at times it was hard for me to keep up. I had attended a pretty good Bible College previously and it paled in comparison and I think there are few places in the world that are emphasizing the sermon on the mount in that way at least in the west excluding the apostolic ministers in China and the like.


In conclusion I have many more things to say but at this specific time wont. I can say that I have often had my wrestling with this matter very much so but have grown to understand much and at this point only see in part and so cannot speak absolutely authoritatively but I can say as much as I can. I think though that this is something that we should not disdain but it is mighty thing that is occuring also in light of The Call. There is some error and some mixture but I believe a lot of good is happening irregularly and so should be rejoiced in and lifted up especially in light of the lukewarm Church that is so prevalent. I think it is a much bigger thing then you think. If these are believers and you are separating from them as an out of Churcher or IHOPer then in that you are walking in the dark for if we walk in the light we will have fellowship with one another and to shrink back because some weakness or whatnot makes you uncomfortable because you are to weak to eat meat or something then that should be corrected. In love, sincerity, and humility on such matters and my own weakness in grasping such things I write.

D
davidt

Kathleen,

Great I am glad that you also know the truth about the true end time scenario and happenings!

...concerning their time of salvation, we must be very discerning as to when this time will be... they are at a place of self sufficiency and self righteousness that only a great breaking will deliver them from.

I am not saying that this time will be tomorrow or something. I think it could but I think more so maybe in the next couple generations or so since I think the Church is largely not prepared and other things. Also, I am not so sure that a physical humbling will bring them to Christ since this has already happened. I also read in revelation how tribulation makes man to curse God even more. This is not to totally discredit your statement only to make a point.


...it can ONLY be done the Lord's way. In light of all this, I must agree with Josef

Are you saying that IHOP or something is doing it mans way? I think that a prayer ministry and it's attitude especially if done the right way is quite the opposite.


...messages that Art Katz had spoken before their congretion rebuked them for their loud music and "modern" trappings. We were never meant to be a "with it church in a "with it" world.

I am sure that Art rebuked IHOP at times and I hope we are all rebuked at times that it would be oil to our heads. This however is not a total denunciation. I have heard some things where he talked about music but I have not heard any direct messages against IHOP though. Not to say that there aren't any but if there are I would like to hear them for instruction since I value this so if you have the resources please let me know.

Loud music? I am taken back in grievance over this statement just by that fact that a Christian can be so wrong. This is not meant to be offensive but only expressive. Is there not loud music in heaven and shouting from arch angels? Did not David say make a shout to the Lord and a loud noise? I know there is a time and a place for hush and such but not always. Maybe you mean that it is just a big fun time or something but I think that often the heart of it is to be fervent toward the Lord.

By Modern trappings you were not very specific so I have a hard time knowing what you are saying. I see some modern trappings but much of the modern trappings are gnats that are being swallowed and it is only to the legalistic weak brethren that strain at them. I think there is a validity to in some ways of being relevant to our culture as Paul was and more specifically to our generation not to say we should be worldly in a sinful sense but there is a difference and wearing clothes like Quakers and listening only to classical music or something is only a form and externally focused on a false romanticizing of our previous history.


I have discerned the sexual spirits surrounding the congregation and spirits of sorcery and witchcraft. I am not a child in this sort of knowledge and I do not intend to speak this to cause strife. In malice we are to be children, but in knowledge we are to be men. I cannot support this organization in all good conscience because of what I see spiritually, reguardless of the zeal displayed.

Have you been to KC and that for an extended period and observing without prejudice in taking a true look at what is happening with patience? If not then I would be hard pressed to acknowledge your statement about spiritual discernment.

I would also not really question your statement about maturity wholly and you may be right to an extent but to a full extent I think not. And I think if you cant receive it in good conscience then that may be for a number of reasons though I think it probable that those can be answered. I also have had many reasons but many of them were false and have been revealed for what they are after perseverance and love for the truth no matter how hard it was to get there and all the offense that raised in my heart. Remember that Jesus purposely offended the mind to reveal the heart when speaking of eating His flesh and drinking His blood and all left Him and He even tested His close disciples but they in desperation and faith in what they otherwise knew to be true stayed for they were bound to this great man who had all they had. Imagine if you were a Jew and someone told you God had been born of a virgin, or the God came in the form of a dove, or God came in the form of fire and wind, or that John the Baptist was Elijah to come. I also think many things can be traditionalism, denominationalism, legalism, and so forth.


even the word "revolution" echos of rebellion to me.

The revolution is in context to end times theology. It is in contrast to replacement theologians, post tribbing not caring or preparing, lethargy and unbelief in prophecy. What is wrong with that if it is rebellious it is in a righteous sense. This is an unmerited comment and it is sad that such a slanderous statement would be made without any reason or by the word of God and in love for the family of God. To revolutionize something is merely to change it the word has no inherent evil sense to it.

P
philologos


Frankly, I'm confused. I don't know what people mean when they say we should "stand with Israel".

Hi there Taylor, as Robert W might say 'would you like to borrow my helmet'? ;-)

D
davidt

Troyor,

Yes I have read your post and find it in some places to and sense to be false.

I understand that there is MUCH hardship in Gaza but that is the fault of Hamas and this war if the fault of Hamas and the fact that Israel has to accidently hurt civilians is Hamas' fault. War is never a clean thing.

I also understand that much of what the US has done it false and even that of Israel of course. However in this instance from my understanding Israel is in the right. Maybe if you understood the statement that Ahmadinejad has made about annihilating Israel or that of the late Arafat then you would understand. Or the many other things.

I do stand with Israel but I do not condone false wars. Nor do I state that Israel is good nor innocent. I do however stand for them to have human rights and for them to have their homeland.

D
davidt

Savannah,

conditioned to think of Islam as an anathema to them,

It is an anathema especially true fundamental Islam that correctly translated its Quran. It is a very dangerous threat and has been and even more so as nuclear threats have come about.


for if they believe Israel is the fulfillment of biblical prophesies,

Israel is there prophetically and against all odds miraculously. Though in unbelief and sin they are still there for they must remain a people and the Temple is to be built in which the abomination of desolation will occur.


not a single passage or phrase that would give a follower of Christ cause to take the life of another man, or

This would be teaching complete passivism. However the government are God's ministers and so if it good to make war on evil then it is good.


I have previously already understood the more ultra liberal side of politics and in some respects agree with them and am still trying to figure out some things as there is much intrigue and deception. I am not persuaded that it is totally true though.

I believe that replacement theology is criminal and a rank heresy to one of the largest degrees and one should be ashamed for holding such a stance also especially because of what has been done in light of ministers holding such views under Luther, Hitler, and so forth. So I believe it to be a literal sin to hold to such a thing.

Do you not understand that Israel has a main and central necessary role in the plan of God and affairs of the world and that they have in no way been replaced but remain as they have been. I recently had a revelation on this fact and here it is. Just as God dealt with Israel in the Old Testament he is still related to them in the EXACT same way. God always mainly dealt with the Jews. He always was burdened in love for them and working with them. And He was saving many of them like He is today with Gentile Christians. Hardly would you even hear of Gentiles being mentioned. Why? Well not because He didn't care for them but He cared first for Israel and once He worked through them then it was to the world. He had promises and set His LOVE on the patriarchs and they labored for things that we are now walking in we are receiving that for which we have not labored. So here is the parable that came to mind. A father sent his laborers to receive the money from his farmers and the farmers killed them. Finally he sent his son and they killed him and that was too much. So even God had sent His prophets and Israel killed them but when they killed His Son it was too much and He turned from them and the Gentiles. BUT even in that it was only to make the Israelites jealous. We must also have this ordered burden that God has and that Paul had. Paul did not have this burden only because they were His people but because they were God's he was not humanly centered but God centered in his ambitions.

In this I am not saying that we ought to join the IDF or that we should promote unjust wars. But I think that we should stand for the right of Israel to exist and also for their human rights. And as far as I understand they are only at this point protecting themselves from people bombing there homeland. It is hard to say what is just and what isnt but it sure seems that they have been treated unlawfully by militant Muslims more so. If you have ever seen Ahmadinejad call for the annihilation of Israel or Arafat then you would understand and there are many other things to be mentioned.

D
davidt

'would you like to borrow my helmet'?

haha

D
davidt

Is the Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ Imminent? Written by Eli Brayley:


While I was growing up, I heard it often stated by pastors, friends and teachers that Jesus could return at any time, any hour, or any day, and that we had to be "ready" if He appeared at any given moment. Of course, as a boy I assumed this was true, and I never asked any questions. However, when I began to study the Scriptures on this point, I discovered that this oft repeated claim is absolutely not true, and sadly many Christians today believe it to be true because they have not studied the Scriptures for themselves, having just accepted what they have heard asserted for so long.

Today, this idea is presented as "the New Testament Doctrine of Imminence"... but unfortunately, as strong as the name sounds, its Scriptural basis is entirely indefensible. For this reason you will not find "the New Testament Doctrine of Imminence" in any theology or commentary books prior to the 1830's; for up until the 19th century no such idea existed in the history of the Church. The belief in the imminent return of Christ is a new and widespread teaching today; its success due to its enormous media propagation and emotional appeal.

God's Word commands us to "prove all things" (1 Thessalonians 5:21), and in the spirit of the Bereans, the deciding question is not, "How many men believe it?" but, "What saith the Scriptures?"


THREE ASSUMED SCRIPTURAL GROUNDS

There are three types of verses used to justify the belief in an "any moment" coming:

A) verses with a general expectancy of Christ's return
B) verses comparing Christ's return to that of a thief
C) verses stating the uncertainty of the date

After examining these claims more carefully, we shall see that none give credibility to the idea of imminency, but rather, on the contrary, disprove their own assumed grounds.

A. General Expectancy
It is thought that because the early Church believers were looking for the coming of the Lord (as many Scriptures exhorted them to do so), therefore they believed that Christ could come at any given moment. Verses such as Philippians 3:20, "...from whence also we look for the Savior" and 1 Corinthians 1:7, "...waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ", pretribulationists point to as supporting texts for an early Church expectation of imminency. However, this attempt to use verses of general expectancy from the days of the early Church to prove that they expected an imminent return of Christ is unwarranted: all it proves is simply that the early Christians were indeed watching and waiting for the return of their Lord! WHEN and HOW they thought He would come is not described in such general exhortations. That the Church has always been expecting and looking for Jesus' return is not in question, but the details surrounding this hope cannot be deduced in these basic exhortations, as the pretribulationists try to force.

A posttribulationist can read the same passages and agree that the early Christians were waiting for the coming of the Lord. How this is to be understood will be different, which requires looking at other Scriptures on the matter. As Samuel P. Tregelles said, a Greek scholar from the 19th century, regarding the manner of the Church's expectation: "The Church is called to "patience of hope", and not to mere excitement of speculative expectancy." The Bible is not silent on how we are to wait, but in fact gives us clear instruction as to the promise of His coming. We shall look more into this below.

B. Christ as a Thief
Several New Testament passages correlate the return of Christ to that of a thief. It was Jesus who first used the allegory in Matthew 24:43 when He said, "But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up." Paul also borrows this comparison in reference to the coming of the Lord in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3, "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape." Notice that in both cases the warning is to those who are unready: that if you are caught off guard you will be plundered and destroyed. The thief comes to steal, kill and destroy.

What is most interesting is that the next verse in 1 Thessalonians 5:4 states: "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief." For the Christian who IS watching, Jesus Christ will NOT come like a thief. "Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober." (5:6) Only upon those who are not watching will Jesus come as a thief; but to those who ARE watching He will come as the Savior! This is the lesson in both Matthew 24 and 1 Thessalonians 5. Pretribulationists have misunderstood this parable to mean that Christ will come upon everyone like a thief to 'snatch' away the Church, and that no one will be able to ascertain His coming. This is absolutely not the case.

Our Lord Jesus dedicated a whole discourse with His disciples to give us definite signs to watch for that we may know when He is coming and not be caught unawares. "So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors." (Matthew 24:33) In this way His people will be prepared and not caught off guard like the rest of the world. If we are not watching in the way which Christ prescribed, then we are in serious danger of having our house plundered. "Let us not sleep...but let us watch..." Paul wrote this to the Christians at Thessalonica but it must again be heard today. Millions of Christians are not watching! Many people think there is nothing to watch for since they believe Jesus must come like a thief upon all men without distinction... but the point of the exhortation was for us to watch that He would NOT come upon us in that way!

In Revelation 16:12-16, the apostle John sees the armies of the antichrist gathered together for the final battle of the great day of the Lord, which is at Armageddon. The setting is the very end of the seven year tribulation, on the threshold of when Christ shall immediately appear in flaming fire and great glory to be manifested before the entire world. But right in the midst of this scenario, in verse 15, we read: "Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame." If pretribulationism is true, what is this statement doing here? The warning of coming as a thief is directly connected with the Second Coming of Jesus Christ at the end of the age. For those who are watching, they will 'keep their garments' and will be able to anticipate that He is right at the door... but for those who are not watching, Christ shall come upon them with the destructive character of a thief, and they will be consumed. Therefore watch!

C. The Uncertain Date
The last argument that is put forward to support imminency is the uncertainty of the date, for Christ Himself said, "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." (Mark 13:32) Since no man knows the day nor the hour, the pretribulationists deduce that Christ could come at any time.

The problem with this reasoning is that it utterly ignores the fact that Jesus gave the Church clear signs that we are to watch for to anticipate His coming (He gave these signs in the very same conversation!). The date may be uncertain, but the signs are certain. One may not know the day when Christ will come, but one DOES know the signs which Christ gave in order to watch for His coming. The only way this argument would work for the pretribulationists is if Jesus had not given us any signs to watch for and had just departed with the promise of His 'uncertain day' return. Only then would their argument would work, for it is impossible to "watch" for an 'any moment' coming! But Jesus did not do that, and therefore this argument has no strength. Christ gave us signs, and many of them have already come to pass.

Consider this: the Bible likens the return of Christ to the giving birth of a child (Matthew 24:8, John 16:21, Romans 8:22, 1 Thessalonians 5:3). The general duration of a woman's pregnancy is approximately nine months, and so the mother knows roughly how long she must carry the child before it is born. Though she does not know the exact day or the hour that the baby will be born, it would be absurd for her to think that she could give birth at any given time! As the baby grows and the mother's body with it, she can watch the definite signs of progression until she knows the time is drawing incredibly close. At that point, she still does not know the exact hour the water will break, but you can be sure she will take every precaution to have things ready for when it does, because she knows the signs. Because she has been watching, she will not be unprepared when it is time to go into labor. This is a perfect picture of the return of Christ.

Not knowing the day does not mean 'any day'. We do not know the day or the hour, but we do know the signs. It would be equally absurd to say that Jesus could come back any time when the circumstances on earth are not as Christ Himself prophesied them to be. The apostle Paul also gave us clear instructions on how to discern His coming: "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?" (2 Thessalonians 2:1-5) Watching for signs was important to Paul and it was important to Jesus. Definite things must take place before the Lord can return. There is a difference between being "ready" to be whisked away on a cloud at any given moment, and being ready to face the ultimate pressures of Satan's final persecution at the end of the age. Both Jesus and the apostles gave us clear and strong warnings to ensure that we would be prepared. Have you taken them seriously?


THE NATURE OF OUR WAITING

It might be surprising to some people that these three arguments are the only defense pretribulationists can give for their fundamental belief in imminency. As said before, the "doctrine of imminency" is only as old as the 1830's and became widespread through repetitious assertion and emotional appeal. It is not a clear New Testament doctrine but must be exposed as a false teaching that draws people away from true Biblical watching. The Scripture repeatedly exhorts us to watch and to wait patiently for the coming of our Lord and Savior, Who shall at last separate out of the earth the wheat from the tares, when He shall "send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (Matthew 24:31) This is our blessed hope for which the Church for 2000 years has been looking for!

The early Church was watching for Christ's coming. The Medieval Church was watching for Christ's coming. The Church in the Reformation was watching for Christ's coming. Perhaps in our generation we shall see the parousia of our Lord? No one knows the day, but we do know the signs, and shall continue watching and waiting in the way that God prescribed.

"Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus." (Revelation 22:20)

S
sermonindex

Frankly, I'm confused. I don't know what people mean when they say we should "stand with Israel".

I'm not sure why we should treat them any differently than we treat other earthly nations. We treat them with respect and dignity. However, I don't think many Christians are accepting the fact that modern day Judaism is an apostate, idolatrous religion, which would actually be sinful to support.

Taylor, since this is a cyber medium, let me tell you the "voice" I'm writing in: gentle, meek, soft.

I'm a Jew. I'm a Jew , who follows Jesus as Messiah, the resurrected Son of God, Who is the Lamb of God, the Final Atoning offering.

Since last Sunday, I have been repeatedly stumbled again and again, by reading the likes of what you write. Now, that's MY problem, you're just saying what you feel, or how you interpet the Word, the stumbling problem is all mine, but let me ask you this: why is it that when a Gentile Christian even mentions the Name "Jesus" to a Jew, observant or secular, the history and cultural DNA hairs on the back of their neck stand up in fear?

Is it the fear of conviction? You might say, "yes" (might), but I am here to witness to you, that for thousands of years the people of my flesh, the Hebrews, have been tortured, presecuted and murdered all in the "name" of Jesus, whether it be the followers of the roman church, the orthodox church, the Lutheran church, the russian orthodox church, it's fact. Millions upon millions of Jews murdered in the "name" of Jesus. It's a horrible fact that the "followers" of Christ have scared the Jesus out of the Jewish people. Their memories are long.

So, with what I read of your post, such rhetoric is not helpful. I won't even deign to counterpoint you with the fact that the modern state of Israel is a God thing. I dont have the steam, nor the bandwidth. Quite frankly, and in the spirit of transparency I now regard a portion of the church, with grave suspicion, meaning, that when I read such a posting as yours, its pretty safe to assume, (and forgive me for assuming) that you might adhere to "replacement theology".

Taylor, I thank God that we live in a republic, where all are free to think what they want, read what they want, etc etc (you get the picture) but I cant express in mere words how this theological concept just craters my spirit, in that the Spirit of Christ IN me, says, "wrong!", when I read of those who expound on this.

I dont want to get further into all this, I just wanted to point this out to you IN DUE RESPECT: you wrote,

That being said, I do hope for a large turning to Christ amongst the ethnic Jews.

overlooking the "ethnic" part, let me say this, don't "hope", pray and believe; because the way I read the Word is this; the Jewish people figure so so prominently into endtime prophecy, that if the enemy can kill us all off, well..........I don't know what to say. Why do you think it is, that the enemy has been working overtime to kill the Jewish people off?

Don't ever forget the Vine from which you recieve the Nutrient.

I pray my post was not contentious, I just had to say what I had to say, in Jesus love, neil

S
sermonindex

thank you, thank you for these words:

This can be a difficult subject. I believe we should approach it with humility especially because it must largely be learned spiritually. If anything I believe that we have lost a centralized vision for the Jews and a passion for them. I believe that this goes against the secular mind in that it is labeled racist and other things. I believe it goes against the heart that is filled with an anti Christ spirit even in Christians. I take this stance because the scripture do.

I am SO grateful for a brother in Christ, brother in Messiah, who can understand the absolute torment a Jew who follows Jesus feels for his people in the flesh, who can understand the miserable stain of history in regards to how some elements of the church have treated the Jews thru the dark corridors of history.

may I quote the rest of your post, as its what I would want to say:

God chose Abram, and Israel, and David, and so forth and made promises to them that are still to be fulfilled. He did not choose them because they were great but because they were weak. God's original plan is to work through Israel to be a light to the world however it is not happening that way right now but if there falling away means reconciliation how much more there return. They have blessed us in spiritual ways carrying the scriptures and bearing the Messiah so we are to bless the naturally. Even when Israel was rebellious God still rebuked nations for not treating them the way that He wanted. God even now is preserving His people and placed them in their land so that they will remain a people. So if God is blessing them at least to a degree then we also should. If Jesus was so passionate about their salvation and Paul was and the whole reason for Him turning to us was to make them jealous then we also should be zealous for them almost even that we would be accursed from Christ in intercession for them for we must remember that the gospel is first to the Jew. This is God's prophetic will and so I must stand with it and share God's heart. We have forgotten how central Israel is to Christianity look at how many of the biblical authors were Jewish look at how focused God has been on them throughout history and it has not changed there is no such thing a an Old and New Testament God He is the same. I am sure there is more I could write and I have written without planning it out but I hope this will suffice.

Praise God for your testimony as swept along by Him. Words cannot convey how grateful I am, to both you and the Holy Spirit, as I have been in a "desolate place" for a week now, isolated and suspicious, didnt go to church on Sunday, skipped the Thursday 6 AM men's meeting, but I simply must be in the fellowship of believers this Sunday, I must.

thank you brother, in Jesus' love, neil

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sermonindex

spot on with this remark:

I guess the main difference between us would be that I find the true Israel and the promises to be fulfilled by faith, and Paul states, that though it is a great mystery, the Gentiles are included in this.

YES!! to this Jew, that is the beautiful Frangrance of the Gospel, that its ALWAYS been about the Gentiles, "ALL knees will bow".

God was NEVER ever going to let His Name be confined to ancient Israel, to the Hebrews, to the Jews...oh no! that was not to be. Because if it was left up to the Jews, we would have sat in the boundaries of that ancient kingdom, and never brought forth the Glory of God. Look at how Jonah pouted when the people of Nineveh got God, how they worshipped Him....Jonah pouted

Our Loving Merciful Father would NEVER let the people's of this earth live in darkness forever, that's why He sent His Son Jesus as the FINAL pascal Lamb.

You know Taylor, when I sit in Church, my home church, and I look around, to me, it feels JUST THE SAME as when I was child in the synagogue, in my heart, the secret place, I think of followers of Jesus, Christians, I think of us as ONE, as a kind of "new Jew", forgive my home cooked slang, "new Jew", but thats the way I feel, I dont feel a seperation or difference.

and please forgive me if I assume you adher to "replacement theology", I dont know whether you do or not, but ...ummm, I just had to unveil my heart beat on this forum, where one's testimony or words can be tragically misconstrued.

neil

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sermonindex

my first paying job was an intelligence analyst, so I know how to dig deep, and dig deep I did on and about the website, "We Hold these Truths" dot org, and I can say this in absolute truth and clarity, that "We Hold" is an anti-semitic website, and Charles E. Carlson is a stone cold neo-nazi, can I be so frank.

when a website is quoted by davidduke dot com, or the author of this piece has been a speak at "National Alliance" events, that person is a neo-nazi.

when books offered for sale have such intro's as this:

Mayer Amshel Rothschild, the founder of the Rothschild fortune, at the time of his death in 1812, created a trust of his estate, by will, for the elevation of the Jewish race and the establishment of a Jewish World Empire. The estate has been preserved and managed since his death as a unit in persuance of the provisions of his will. This 1940 classic examines the origin of the Rothschild Empire, gold, the Federal Reserve, and how the money trust twice arranged for World War.

thats from "Rothchild's Money Trust" available for $18

here's one from a book by Ivor Benson, "The Zionist Factor":



A distinguished war correspondent and talented writer, Ivor Benson, analyzes the Jewish Impact of 20th Century History. Benson relates little-known history of Zionist world influence. His essays on Carroll Quigley�s Tragedy and Hope, Anthony Sutton�s Wall Street and the Rise of Hitler, and Wall Street and the Bolshevik Revolution, as well as other related works, and details the systematic destruction of Rhodesia and South Africa by sanctions and deceit. Paperback 250 pp

guess where else you can find the writings of the esteemed Messrs Benson?

here at a website called "ZOG's Nightmare dot com"

(for those who are unaware, "ZOG" means "Zionist Occupied Government" and that is used by neo-nazi's to refer to America)

[url=http://www.zogsnightmare.com/index3c.htm]ZOG'S Nightmare[/url]

and I love this bit of hyporcrisy in Carlson's satanic essay:

If a follower of Christian Zionism would only examine the simple teaching of Jesus in the New Testament he will find not a single passage or phrase that would give a follower of Christ cause to take the life of another man, or another man’s child. Certainly we must not kill a man’s wife in a far away country. No such permission exists

Oh sure, Mister Carlson, nazi's love to kill Jews, Jesus did leave us with one Bit of Scriptural Advice: "Sell your cloak and buy a sword".

Yes Lord, amen.

S
savannah

GOD'S PROMISES TO THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL FULFILLED
BY JOSHUA

The book of Joshua contains a passage (Chapter 21, verses 43-45) which throws clear light upon the question we are investigating--the future of the Jews. The passage has already been briefly noticed; but its importance demands a more extended consideration. Its value for our present purpose lies chiefly in the fact that thereby it clearly appears that nothing now remains to be fulfilled of all that God promised the fathers of Israel He would do for their natural descendants.

Joshua, whose name signifies Saved-of-Jehovah, had by God's express command, led the children of Israel across the river Jordan and into the land which the Lord had promised their fathers to give them. Furthermore, after a personal interview with "the Captain of the host of the Lord" (who could have been none other than the Lord Jesus Himself) he led them victoriously against their enemies, subduing one after another, until, as the record declares, "he left nothing undone of all that the Lord commanded Moses" (11:15). And finally, he divided the entire land among the twelve tribes, assigning to each tribe its inheritance, and to the Levites cities in diverse parts of the land.

God was with Joshua in a very special way; and through that chosen and well prepared instrument He completed all He had pledged Himself to do for the children of Israel under His unconditional covenants with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; and this is plainly and most emphatically declared in the passage we are about to examine. The confusion and misunderstanding that now exist, in regard to the present status and future prospects of "Israel after the flesh," would never have arisen had due attention been given to these facts of Scripture: first, that God's promise to the fathers of Israel concerning the land of Canaan went no farther than He would bring their descendants into that land, would give them complete possession of it, and would subdue their enemies under them; and second, that their continued possession of that promised land would depend upon their faithfulness to Him and their obedience to His commandments.

Accordingly, when the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob had fulfilled to their seed, through Joshua, all He had pledged Himself to do for them, all of which He faithfully accomplished to the last detail, notwithstanding their many and great "provocations" during the forty years He suffered their manners in the wilderness, then the unconditional covenants with the fathers were fulfilled so completely that "there failed not ought of any good thing which the Lord had spoken to the house of Israel." Therefore, they stood thenceforth, as to their relations with God, wholly upon the conditional covenant He made with them through Moses, which we have considered in a previous chapter (Deut. 29:1). The details of that substituted covenant, which is strangely ignored by Bible teachers in our day, occupy the greater part of the Book of Deuteronomy. The substance of it was, as we have already seen, that, upon the express condition that the children of Israel would diligently keep the commandments of God--those commandments being of the essence of the covenant--He would plant them firmly in that land, would establish them in permanent possession of it, and would, moreover, give them to enjoy certain specified blessings therein. But if, on the other hand, they should be disobedient, should adopt the customs of the people of the land, and should forsake Him to worship their gods, then He would bring sundry curses upon them, and eventually, for persistent rebellion and apostasy on their part, would destroy them from off the land and scatter them among all the nations of the world (Deut. 28:15-68). This is stated again and again, in the clearest and strongest terms (see Deut. 29:23-28; and 30:17, 18).

Certainly it is impossible to maintain, in the face of these plain Scriptures, and of what we are now about to bring to the reader's attention, that God had obligated Himself to give the land of Canaan to the natural seed of Abraham for an everlasting possession. Moreover, those who so teach overlook the fact that, if God had indeed obligated Himself by His covenants of promise, not only to bring the children of Israel into that good land, but also to establish them in it forever, then it would have been a breach of covenant on His part to pluck them from off the land and scatter them among all nations of the world, as He has now done. But, as to the conclusions we should reach regarding this important matter, we are not left to an inference, however plain; for we have this clear record:

"And the Lord gave unto Israel all the land which He sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.

"And the Lord gave them rest round about, according to all that He sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man [64] of all their enemies before them; the Lord delivered all their enemies into their hand.

"There failed not ought of any good thing which the Lord had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass" (Josh. 21:43-45).

Here is a carefully worded record, manifestly designed to arrest the attention and impress itself upon the minds of the readers of God's Word; which record declares in the most emphatic terms that God had, despite all the provocation, contumacy and rebellion of that people, fulfilled completely "all" He had promised and sworn to their fathers to do them; insomuch that of all the good things He had spoken concerning the house of Israel, "there failed not ought."

But that is not all; for Joshua, when about to die, assembled all Israel, with their elders, their heads, their judges and their officers (23:2), and after rehearsing briefly what Jehovah had done for them, he earnestly exhorted them to be "Very courageous to keep and to do all that is written in the Book of the law of Moses"; to shun the idolatries of the Canaanites, not even so much as to make mention of the names of their gods; but to cleave steadfastly to Jehovah their God, as they had done during the period of his leadership (vv. 6-8).

And then, with the utmost solemnity and impressiveness, he warned them that, if they should "in anywise go back, and cleave unto the remnant of those nations . . . and make marriages with them, then they were to "know for a certainty that the Lord" would no more drive out those enemies; but would make them the instruments of His judgment upon the apostate people, "until ye perish from off this good land which the Lord your God hath given you" (11-13).

And he concludes with these weighty words:

"And behold, this day I am going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the Lord your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, and not one thing hath failed thereof.

"Therefore, it shall come to pass that, as all good things are come upon you, which the Lord your God promised you; so shall the Lord bring upon you all evil things, until He have destroyed you from off this good land which the Lord your God hath given you. When ye have transgressed the covenant of the Lord your God, which He commanded you, and have gone and served other gods, and bowed yourselves to them; then shall the anger of the Lord be kindled against you, and ye shall perish quickly from off the good land which He hath given unto you" (vv. 14-16).

It is specially to be noticed that Joshua's last message changes in character at verse 15 from an exhortation to a prophecy; and that, in the prophetic part of that message, he plainly declares that the then unborn generations of Israelites would transgress the covenant of the Lord, and that He would therefore destroy them from off the land. (That the prophecy had reference to future generations of Israelites appears from verse 31 of the next chapter, where it is recorded that "Israel served the Lord all the days of Joshua, and all the days of the elders that overlived Joshua, and which had known all the works of the Lord, that He had done for Israel.")

And now the whole world has been witness for nineteen centuries that God has done just what He said He would do. And is there to be, in time to come, a reversal of this Divine decree and judgment? Impossible. We use that strong word advisedly. For to begin with, there is no hint in the Scripture we have been considering of the reversal of this decree and of a return to the old order of things; and "God will do nothing, but He revealeth His secret unto His servants the prophets." Furthermore, the terms in which God announced through Moses and Joshua (the founders of the nation of Israel) the destruction of that nation, exclude the possibility of its restoration. And finally, it was necessary that the old covenant and all that was connected with it should wax old and vanish away, in order that place might be found for the new and everlasting covenant, the "better covenant, which was established upon better promises" (Heb. 8:6-13). It was under that old covenant, which had merely the "shadow of good things to come"--the glorious and eternal things of God's everlasting kingdom--that the children of Israel took possession of the land of Canaan. And now, not only have the old covenant and all the shadows connected with it passed away, but they have been replaced by the eternal realities, which those shadows represented for that era of mingled light and darkness. But "the darkness is past and the true light now shineth" (1 J. 2:8); so there can be no going back again to the time of dimness and shadows.

It is of the highest importance that this truth be clearly grasped and firmly maintained, for it is of the very essence and substance of the gospel that, while there is mercy now for all men--pardon, life and eternal blessing--"through the blood of the everlasting covenant," there is no mercy and no blessing for any, whether Jews or Gentiles, under any other covenant; but judgments and curses only. There now remains no promises for any except the "better promises" of the gospel of Christ; and for those who refuse that gospel--it matters not what their ancestry--there is nought but the abiding wrath of God, nought "but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries." (Heb. 10:27). It is due to the glory of God and the honor of His gospel to insist upon this.

"THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE HEIR"

But the Scripture does not leave the matter there. Chapter III of Galatians states the positive side of the truth, showing, and with all the clearness that could be asked, that Christ and His people are the true "Israel of God" (6:16), the seed of Abraham and heirs of the promises; but chapter IV presents the negative side of the same truth, making it evident that the natural Israel has no longer any standing before God, or any part in His future purposes. And further it is shown that the setting aside of "Israel after the flesh" is not a new revelation given to Paul, but was to be found in the O. T. records. For there is evident reproof in the words: "Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman" (Gal. 4:21, 22). Paul's question implies that those who construed the Scriptures in the sense that is now-a-days mis-called "literal," should have known better. And he goes on to show that these things "are an allegory," in which Hagar stands for the old covenant and her son, Ishmael, for the natural Israel; whereas Sarah represents the new covenant and Isaac the true Israel, the seed of Abraham, the heirs of the promise. And the climax of the lesson is found in the words of Sarah, which the apostle here declares to be the voice of Scripture; for, in declaring what was to be the outcome of the controversy between the natural Israel, that which "was born after the flesh," and the true Israel, that which "was born after the Spirit," and which was being persecuted by the natural Israel, he says: "Nevertheless, what saith the Scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son; for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman." And he concludes with this comforting statement: "So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free."

It is superfluous to say that these New Testament Scriptures make certain that the national restoration of Israel after the flesh is not a part of the revealed will of God, but that the reverse is true.

Philip Mauro

D
davidt

Amen, Neil.

I also hear you on that issue and am burdened with you.

S
sermonindex

Personally, the jury is still out on what I think concerning ethnic Israel...concerning God's promises... But, I must say that I do have questions about some of Mr. Brown's premises.

Of course, this is preposterous. But, in the event that you are still uncertain about the calling of Israel, consider this simple truth: If God could forsake Israel, in spite of His unconditional, everlasting promises, then He could forsake the Church! If God could replace Israel, in spite of His unconditional, everlasting promises, then He could replace the Church! So, if you hold to a theology that says, “God has forsaken physical Israel,” or “The Church has replaced Israel,” you had better be extremely careful.

Here is my thought process concerning this: (which I know is not much different than some other folks)

Just because someone does not believe that God still considers His land covenant with Israel ( I myself am still unsure) this does not mean that they think that the Church replaced Israel. Unfortunately though, many of the proponents of this "natural Israel theology" usually label those folks believers of "Replacement Theology."
This of course is the breeding ground for all anti-Semitism in the church.....supposedly...

Has God replaced Israel? or Is Jesus Christ the fulfillment of Israel? Is He the Son, the Suffering Servant, the Apple of God's Eye?

God has not forsaken Israel. He has fulfilled all that He has promised Israel....in Christ. Is that too farfetched? Isn't that what the book of Hebrews is all about? The Old Covenant now fulfilled in Christ? The Substance has come. The shadow is past.

God spoke in times past by His prophets. God ruled in and conquered in times past by His Kings. God mediated in times past by His priests.

But...

Now He speaks to us by and through His Son, the Living Word of God. He has conquered and now rules by the King of Kings who sits in power on the right hand of the Father. We now have ONE mediator between God and man...Christ Jesus our Lord.

No, the Church has not replaced Israel, but I ask you, has not Christ fulfilled Israel...Are not:

All the promises of God in Him......yea and amen!
2Corinthians 1:20

Is that too farfetched.

My one main contention with those who talk about Israel all the time is that, it seems, (and this may just be my perception) that they end up preaching and teaching "Israel" instead of preaching and teaching "Christ".

---------------

Another observation:

The election of Israel. Israel was unconditionally elected. God chose Israel out of all the nations, not because of anything in them, but simply because....He chose them. Period. He set His love upon Israel and remained an enemy to the rest of the nations. All those who descended from Abraham (naturally) were blessed because God chose them...in Abraham. They were predestined if you will.

I find it funny that people can passionately defend the election of Israel (and they should) but those same people will deny election in Christ. Ephesians says we were chosen..in Him.

---------

One last observation.

It seems (again this may be my perception) that when proponents of natural Israel speak of the Church as compared to Israel, the Church is portrayed as separate from Israel. Like "the Church" is made up of only white, suburban, 30 something males, who like to attend "Purpose Driven" bible studies and use orange and green highlighters when reading the bible.

There are millions of Jews (both dead and alive) who are my brothers and sisters...in Christ. The Church...God's people...is made up of every nation and one of those nations is Israel.

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sermonindex

Do you ever notice that God always seems to be raising up a new generation of ________________ (fill in the blank)

M
murrcolr

Davidt I listen to one sermon and heard this.

Mike Bickle says

"Know this is new new for some of you. The tribualtion happens through us not to us. The tribualtion is against the anti christ. The major storyline of the book of revelation is the destruction of the antichrist through the praying church."

This quote is taken from the session on the 28th Dec 2008 with Mike Bickle.

Mikes teaching sounds like the manifest sons of God teaching, which teaches that an elite army of 'overcomers' will either destroy or subdue all the enemies of Christ until they eventually gain power and authority throughout the world.

So what does the bible teach us how is the Antichrist destroyed? It's done by the Return of Christ, for Christ “will destroy [him] with the brightness of his coming.” 2 Thessalonians 2:8 Not as Mike and his new teaching says that the tribualtion through us will destroy the anti christ.

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davidt

Savannah,

I think the one point you are trying to make by this article is you are claiming the promises to Israel have already been fulfilled.

I can say that preterism as a whole is obviously an erroneous theology.

Much of the reason why people held to this view historically is because the biblical prophecies had not been fulfilled for an extended amount of time. So naturally they tend to lean their interpretation by the circumstances they were in.

There is no way that all prophecy is fulfilled. The tribulation has not begun at no time have we seen 1/3 of the population die at once. We have not seen the sun darken and so forth ect ect.

If you are stating that prophecy has been partially fulfilled then you are correct. However in the area of Israel this is not true. If you read in Revelation you will see that Israel is mentioned as distinctly from the Church. Why was Jesus so passionate for His people. Why is the gospel first to him and so forth as I have already posted multiple proofs to found my statement and position.

Also, to state "again" the Church is one with Israel and sons of Abraham and so forth. And not all natural Israel is spiritual Israel. But, they have spiritual promises toward their natural state. God has made spiritual promises to natural Israel. They are to come spiritually first to God and then much of the world will follow. For if their falling away proves to be reconciliation and salvation for the world how much more their return. The original and still standing prophetic plan of God is for Israel to first be saved and then be a light. When God turned to the Gentiles first things were put out of order. Things right now are not right and if the order were put back in place then things would be much better.

Lastly, as I saw your post I was saddened in that you are so far off in the dark when it comes to this all important matter to the heart of God. And also just in general that such doctrines of demons are espoused. Please do not take this as if I were writing from a bad attitude.

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davidt

Mahoney,

Personally, the jury is still out on what I think concerning ethnic Israel...concerning God's promises... But, I must say that I do have questions about some of Mr. Brown's premises.

Quote: Of course, this is preposterous. But, in the event that you are still uncertain about the calling of Israel, consider this simple truth: If God could forsake Israel, in spite of His unconditional, everlasting promises, then He could forsake the Church! If God could replace Israel, in spite of His unconditional, everlasting promises, then He could replace the Church! So, if you hold to a theology that says, “God has forsaken physical Israel,” or “The Church has replaced Israel,” you had better be extremely careful.


Well he made many points and in this one instance it is not a direct biblical argument but I believe it to be biblical. It is not one of his stronger arguments but carries validity.

Could the Church be replaced? No. Then why should we think Israel could be. Neither the supposed Latter Day Saints nor the Islamist's can replace the Church and this is obvious and so with Israel. Often when you look at something from a fresh perspective is helps to clarify things.

To teach replacement theology is much what false religions and anti Christ/Semitic spirited cults have done. The Muslims think they have replaced Israel and the Church. The Latter Day saint think they are the latter day saints. They believe there was apostasy and they are now the new thing.


Just because someone does not believe that God still considers His land covenant with Israel ( I myself am still unsure) this does not mean that they think that the Church replaced Israel. Unfortunately though, many of the proponents of this "natural Israel theology" usually label those folks believers of "Replacement Theology."

It is true that many people are in error and go to extreme however you cannot bundle all the people up and generalize.

If you are saying that the Church has not replaced Israel then you are not specifically teaching Replacement Theology.

However to say that Israel is not in the land by providence can lead to false things. The anti Christ and the nations will hate Israel and attack them and I don't think that one would want to be with them and do the same. Corrie Ten Boom in contrast would be a better example.

The issue of Israel is not a light matter to stand on the fence about. Jesus said if you are not with me then you are against me. He also said that his servants will be with Him where he is. So if Jesus is for Israel then you also should be. Or else you might be found not with Him and against Him. You may say that you are not against Israel, but are you for them?

So even if you are not saying that the Church has replaced Israel yet still saying that they are not in covenant then it is just as bad in many respects.


"Replacement Theology." This of course is the breeding ground for all anti-Semitism in the church.....supposedly...

Once again people can come to extremes but you cannot completely generalize and therefore discredit.

I do not think that replacement theology necessarily leads to anti semitism.

I think though if you read throughout history this doctrine would more effectually bother you.

Also in a sense one might say that it is necessarily a doctrine that leads to anti semitism in that it is a doctrine of devils.

It is therefore by devils conjured up, fueled and motivated, and a door way and breeding ground for such things (as has been thoroughly demonstrated).


No, the Church has not replaced Israel, but I ask you, has not Christ fulfilled Israel...Are not:

So you are asking has Christ replaced Israel?


The Old Covenant now fulfilled in Christ? The Substance has come. The shadow is past.

The shadow and old covenant was the Law not Israel.


My one main contention with those who talk about Israel all the time is that, it seems, (and this may just be my perception) that they end up preaching and teaching "Israel" instead of preaching and teaching "Christ".

This can often be the case. As it is with many things like evangelism, holiness, prayer, revival, and so forth.

One must however have a "passion" about things that are of importance. Often in passion one may err but in that you must give mercy since much was from good intention.

But, yes I have seen people be kinda weird and off in it. Some preach them as if they are good. And some are extreme Zionists in the sense of militia and so forth and that should be pointed out and corrected and kept from eccentricity.


I find it funny that people can passionately defend the election of Israel (and they should) but those same people will deny election in Christ. Ephesians says we were chosen..in Him.

I find funny much about Calvinism and Calvinists without trying to be offensive and I could list things.

Many people as myself hold to a mystery and see both sides of the matter and so deny neither side totally.

Adam was chosen but he had to choose and as we can see he chose wrongly. Noah, Abram, and so forth were chosen but they had to chose to live by faith and obey God as all the other in Hebrews 11. Israel was chosen by God but had to choose to obey/ go/ trust/ and so forth.


It seems (again this may be my perception) that when proponents of natural Israel speak of the Church as compared to Israel, the Church is portrayed as separate from Israel.

The Church and Israel are distinct in a sense and one in a sense. So in conclusion as I said like 3 times there obviously are those who go into error into extreme and they are wrong and it is good to be pointed out but this is not what I am saying and other should not be generalized with them.

D
davidt

Mahoney,

Do you ever notice that God always seems to be raising up a new generation of ________________ (fill in the blank)

I hope He is.

You must understand that the Lord is going to strengthen His Church in the last days which we are in. The Bible does say in the last days I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh.

You might also be careful not to form a mocking scoffing spirit.

And I don't think you could say that people were saying a generation will arise that hasn't since you have not lived longer then a generation.

If you noticed the Jesus people was a generation. Often God can work in generations just as He can work in nations or families or other sets of things since they are tied together in one way or another.

D
davidt

Murrcolr,

Mike Bickle says "Know this is new new for some of you. The tribualtion happens through us not to us. The tribualtion is against the anti christ. The major storyline of the book of revelation is the destruction of the antichrist through the praying church."

This quote is taken from the session on the 28th Dec 2008 with Mike Bickle.

Mikes teaching sounds like the manifest sons of God teaching, which teaches that an elite army of 'overcomers' will either destroy or subdue all the enemies of Christ until they eventually gain power and authority throughout the world.


From what I understand the manifest sons of God teaching is not held by IHOP as it has for a long time been denied on the IHOP website.

Mike is not saying that the Church is going to be warring on the world throughout the tribulation physically. He is saying that their prayers will release the wrath of God on the earth as it states in Revelation that the bowls of wrath are mixed with the prayers of the saints.

He was also speaking in contrast to the pre trib teaching that if the Church went through the trib that they would be victims. However we would be more like Moses in releasing the plagues and we would be exempt like Israel was from the plagues. And so we would not be the receivers but the givers of justice prayer.

When Mike said the tribulation is against the anti Christ specifically what he means is that it is generally against his world and kingdom just like Pharaoh. The judgments come down on the earth against the world and since the world is under the sway of the Devil and so forth these plagues are also against the anti Christ. I also understand that it is when Jesus returns that the anti Christ is destroyed but this is the completion. The day of the Lord as it says in the beginning of Revelation is not talking about sunday or saturday or the Sabbath or something. It is talking about the day of the Lord as in the day of His returning and judgment. So John saw the day of the Lord and the day of the Lord is not just the return but all that which works up to His return starting at the tribulation.

Also I think that manifest sons of God theology is more of a kingdom now post millenial theology whereas the eschatology being taught here is pre millenial.

M
murrcolr


davidt wrote:

Mike is not saying that the Church is going to be warring on the world throughout the tribulation physically. He is saying that their prayers will release the wrath of God on the earth as it states in Revelation that the bowls of wrath are mixed with the prayers of the saints.

He was also speaking in contrast to the pre trib teaching that if the Church went through the trib that they would be victims. However we would be more like Moses in releasing the plagues and we would be exempt like Israel was from the plagues. And so we would not be the receivers but the givers of justice prayer.

When Mike said the tribulation is against the anti Christ specifically what he means is that it is generally against his world and kingdom just like Pharaoh. The judgments come down on the earth against the world and since the world is under the sway of the Devil and so forth these plagues are also against the anti Christ.

There is a big difference between Judgements and tribulation We are told that Tribualtion comes on God people on the latter days.

Tribulation meaning Great affliction, trial, or distress; suffering. An experience that tests one's endurance, patience, or faith

Deut 4 v 30-31 When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;(For the LORD thy God is a merciful God;) he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.

We must struggle through many tribulations in this world.

John 16v33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Act 14 v 22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must go through much tribulation to enter into the kingdom of God.

Paul tells us through that through much tribualtions we enter into the Kingdom of God.

Listen to John the revelator as he says in
Rev 1v9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

John is saying here he is our brother in tribulation for the Word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Lets look at John 16v33 again

These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. It the same reason we have been told about the End times that fear will not come us but we will rise up in faith and be of good cheer when the tribualtion comes.

Lets look at what you say Mike is saying

When Mike said the tribulation is against the anti Christ specifically what he means is that it is generally against his world and kingdom just like Pharaoh.

This to appears to me that it's very oppossite of what Jesus is teaching in John 16. Jesus says In the world we will have tribulation but to be of good cheer as he has overcome the world. Mike says that the tribualtion comes against the world and the kingdom so we can overcome it like Moses did Pharoh.

1Jhn 5 v 4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

Why do we need to overcome again why do we need to defeat the Devil and cause tribulation(justice prayer) to come through us to defeat the devil his Kingdom and the world when Jesus has already defeated him. As long as we keep faith in Jesus we will have victory over the beast his image and his number.

so we would not be the receivers but the givers of justice prayer

Your saying we are not going to recieve tribulation but will be the givers of tribualtion through justice prayer.

That just wrong Rev 13 v 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

You'll have a choice at that time worship the beast and his image and recieve the mark. If not you'll pay the price with your life. Who'll will be the one who enforces the worship of the beast.

The false prophet his main purpose, as stated in Revelation 13:11-17, is to make the whole world worship the first beast. To do this he performs great signs, even calling down fire from heaven. He gives breath to the image and all who refuse to worship this image he causes to be killed.

Know that seems to me like there is a False religious system that will cause a great tribulation on the earth when people refuse to worship the beast and take his mark.

Listen to what I say THE FALSE RELIGIOUS SYSYTEM WILL CAUSE THE GREAT TRIBULATION THAT WILL COME ON THIS EARTH AS THEY ENFORCE THE WORSHIP OF THE BEAST.

Matt 24 v 15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

When you see the abomination that causes desolation from then shall be the great tribulation.

To end with a positive note

Rev 15 v 2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

A People of Victory who have believed in the Lord Jesus Christ and have refused to bow.

D
davidt

Murrcolr,

Your saying we are not going to recieve tribulation but will be the givers of tribualtion through justice prayer.

I was not saying the Church will not go through tribulation at all. I believe the Church will go through tribulation from the world and anti Christ but not from God. I differentiate between the tribulation that comes upon the world through plagues and such and the tribulation which comes upon the world through martyrdom and such.


Why do we need to overcome again why do we need to defeat the Devil and cause tribulation(justice prayer) to come through us to defeat the devil his Kingdom and the world when Jesus has already defeated him. As long as we keep faith in Jesus we will have victory over the beast his image and his number.

So you are saying we should not and do not need to pray?

It does say that we have overcome but it says again in Revelation to him who overcomes. So we still need to act out this overcoming to the end. And do you think we will be able to overcome without prayer.

This is like saying we have been saved and born again so why do we need to pray any more for grace love and victory over sin. Though we have it it still needs to be worked out.

Jesus has overcome the world but His second coming procession is the complete fulfilling of it. When Jesus comes back He overcomes the world completely.

At the very least we are to pray Maranatha and Lord come. Is this not a prayer for justice. Maranatha and let all those who love not our Lord Jesus Christ be anathema. Will not God give justice to His elect who cry out to Him day and night. Jesus comes back for His people and judges the earth in response to the prayers of the saints. Here is one example of the prayers of the saints being tied in with the judgments of God:

Revelation 8:3-5Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, ascended before God from the angel's hand. Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and threw it to the earth. And there were noises, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake.


Quote: When Mike said the tribulation is against the anti Christ specifically what he means is that it is generally against his world and kingdom just like Pharaoh.

This to appears to me that it's very oppossite of what Jesus is teaching in John 16. Jesus says In the world we will have tribulation but to be of good cheer as he has overcome the world.

Mike says that the tribualtion comes against the world and the kingdom so we can overcome it like Moses did Pharoh.


It is true that Moses overcame Pharaoh. But it is also true that before the children of Israel were released they went through tribulation.

So I am not saying we will just defeat the anti Christ and the world with no tribulation. Jesus is coming to free us from the anti Christ and his kingdom just like he freed Israel from Pharaohs kingdom but during that time there will be tribulation on us.

Israel suffered tribulation from Pharaoh and Egypt. But they did not receive the tribulation of plagues and so forth and were exempt and their cattle. In the same way I am saying this happens to the Church and this is an example of how I differentiate between the 2 types of tribulation.


p.s. I think you come to conclusions a little too fast and are predisposed and inclined to presume error a little too much. First you claim manifest sons of God with very little basis just because it was said tribulation will come through us. Then you come to think that I believe the Church will not receive tribulation. I can at least see how you come to the conclusion on the latter, but I still think it a bit crazy. For to say that I don't believe the Church will receive tribulation is like trying to teach a school teachers the abc's. It is an obvious fact that the Church will suffer tribulation and I find it ridiculous that you would write a long post to affirm such an apparent thing.

D
davidt

Neil,

I was blessed by this video interview here on SI of Corrie Ten Boom.

[url=http://media.sermonindex.net/17/SID17004.wmv]click here[/url]

M
murrcolr


davidt wrote:

So I am not saying we will just defeat the anti Christ and the world with no tribulation. Jesus is coming to free us from the anti Christ and his kingdom just like he freed Israel from Pharaohs kingdom but during that time there will be tribulation on us.

I hear what you are saying but that is not what Mike Bickle said in the statemnt I posted ealier. He clearly said "Know this is new new for some of you. The tribualtion happens through us not to us.

I am only repeating to you what I heard from Mikes mouth and this is the reason I quoted scripture saying that we will experience tribualtion. I do not know what you believe or don't believe about anything. All I know is you posted the link and assumed that this is what you believe.

When I heard "The tribualtion is against the anti christ" I about fell off my chair how can a man who reads the same bible as me come up with that statement.

Then to follow it up with this.

"The major storyline of the book of revelation is the destruction of the antichrist through the praying church"

Now that statement above does sound innocent enough and encourages Christians to pray. But I believe that is not what is being shared. Far from that! I think the meaning behind this is that Christians should pray to become the executioner of God's wrath. Know that the root of that mind set is MSOG or what we know it as today Joel's Army.

Listen to what Earl Paulk teaches – in “The Wounded Body of Christ” "The last enemy to be conquered is death. Who will conquer it? A mature Church will come forth with the kind of authority and power that will be able to stand in the very face of Satan" Earl Paulk is a teacher of the MSOG.

Could you agree that sound similar to Mikes Bickles statement.

p.s. I think you come to conclusions a little too fast and are predisposed and inclined to presume error a little too much.

Asking questions does not make me a bad person, nor does it mean I have a "religous spirit". This forum is open to all types and there are many people here with many different beliefs and experiences.

I don't know what you believe and if it seems like I was getting on your case I am not. I desire only to look at scripture and understand the truth of scripture an walk in it.

D
davidt

Murrcolr,


"Know this is new new for some of you.

In saying new he was not saying that he has a new theology "msog". Contextually he was speaking to people who were largely of the post trib crowd since most of the Church is.


The tribualtion happens through us not to us.

Once again I want to state (First I know what he teaches on this issue and am acquainted somewhat thoroughly on it) He was not saying we will not go through tribulation. He just did not in this specific instance mention it. The tribulation that he was talking about that would not come upon us was the tribulation direct from God, namely the plagues and bowls of wrath and so forth. So he was only saying that we will not receive that "specific" tribulation. He was not saying we would not receive tribulation at all just not that kind. So there is a distinction between the 2 kinds of tribulation. One from God and the other from the anti Christ.


When I heard "The tribualtion is against the anti christ" I about fell off my chair

Again, there is a certain type of tribulation that is against the anti Christ. The other kind is against the Church. For example here is an Old Testament type. Pharaoh received tribulation from God by Moses and the cry of Israel like the plagues. Then again there is the other type of tribulation that was against Israel like the hard servitude. So in the same way God is going to bring plagues on the earth like it says in Revelation on the earth and this is directed at the anti Christ but also the world or egypt. Those plagues that are sent in Revelation are not for the Church God would not pour His wrath on the Church. And the reason that God is attacking is because it is the beginning of the war against anti Christ and the beginning of the second coming or the day of the Lord. As John said, "I was taken in the spirit on the Lord's day". The "Lord's day means the day of the Lord which is often spoken of. So from the start of the tribulation of God's wrath this is when the day of the Lord begins and culminates in finality at the second coming of Jesus on a white horse.


"The major storyline of the book of revelation is the destruction of the antichrist through the praying church"

This is the major storyline. Much of the Church is afraid of the tribulation and day of the Lord. However the Church will be spiritually powerful though under affliction as has been demonstrated before like in the book of Acts. When Moses came to Egypt and the plagues broke out on Egypt and the Israelites were persecuted this was not a bad day but a good day. The Israelites were being tested but it was also said that God had heard their cry and they need not fear the plagues for they were not for them as long as the had lambs blood over their door post.

It is about the destruction of Anti Christ and the Devil and it culminates at Armageddon. I remember when I held to pre trib theology and it was not until I understood post trib that this type of Egypt and Moses became so very clear and fitting.

Also, please note you will see if you read the book of Revelation that the judgments of God are poured out in connection with the prayers of the saints even the dead saints for remember the martyrs under the altar crying how long? It is this prayer of Maranatha and anathema to all who love not Jesus and hasten the day of the Lord and so forth that is prayed and answered like the cry of Israel unto their deliverance. Many do not want the Lord to come soon but those are mainly those who are not suffering from injustice. We are to be fasting because the bridegroom is gone and longing from His appearing and that will be answered for He is a good judge and will answer those who cry out to Him day and night speedily and that verse is then followed up by an exhortation from Jesus saying, "when the Son of man returns will He find faith on the earth?". Jesus wasnt saying there would be no faith on the earth in the last days He was challenging us to have faith and pray believing that they will be answered for His second coming. We have lost our desire for Jesus to return remember how the disciples felt when Jesus left them ascending in the same way we should long for His return.


I think the meaning behind this is that Christians should pray to become the executioner of God's wrath. Know that the root of that mind set is MSOG or what we know it as today Joel's Army.

I understand the connection you are making here. However though there is somewhat of a similarity there is an essential difference. He is not saying that we will militarily beat Satan but that we will pray and they will be answered and God will send plagues and so forth from heaven. So you cannot and do not have a basis for saying that this is msog. Remember once again that msog has been openly rejected by Mike on ihop.org.


Asking questions does not make me a bad person, nor does it mean I have a "religous spirit". This forum is open to all types and there are many people here with many different beliefs and experiences. I don't know what you believe and if it seems like I was getting on your case I am not. I desire only to look at scripture and understand the truth of scripture an walk in it.

I understand what you are saying and apologize if I was unnecessarily sharp. I was not only responding to you but in general to those who have pre produced prejudices against certain ministries and so erroneously find error quickly just because they feel uncomfortable if you see what I am saying.

I do largely believe that same that is taught in this eschatology. But once again I think you are misinterpreting what is being said here. I understand why would think that namely because he did not fully explain himself on the issue but that is because he was only talking about one thing and did not mean the word "tribulation" to mean both types but only one and I can tell you that I know this from study. I respect your respect and reverence for scripture and encourage that.

So do you see what I am trying to say. I think I understand what you are saying. But just think you have misunderstood some things though somewhat justly. Are things cleared up?

S
sermonindex

It is interesting that some of the commitments here are very biblical and should be practiced by all Christians:

The Sacred Charge: 7 Commitments of a Forerunner
Friends of the Bridegroom preparing the way of Jesus' Second Coming

As part of the Sacred Charge you commit to:
Pray Daily: Spending 2 hours in prayer and Word (Book of Revelation once a week for 3 years)
Fast Weekly: Setting your heart to fast 2 days a week as a lifestyle *
Speak Boldly: Standing as a faithful witness in allegiance to Jesus' heart for the Church, Israel and the nations
Do Justly: Doing works of justice focusing on the fatherless and oppressed
Give Extravagantly: Giving to the prayer movement (beyond our tithe)
Live Holy: Walking out the Sermon on the Mount and keeping the Purity Covenant
Lead Diligently: Leading weekly prayer meetings and Bible studies (focused on training forerunners)

I
iansmith

I hate to be a wet blanket, and this may have already been said, but Mike Bickle and IHOP have all the signs of being a cult in one of the worst senses... that is not to say that those who attend are not Christians, but I think many people have been deceived (and will be deceived) by this man and his ministry.

D
davidt

Greg,

It is interesting that some of the commitments here are very biblical and should be practiced by all Christians:

Yeah.

D
davidt

Ian,

Mike Bickel and IHOP have all the signs of being a cult in one of the worst senses... I think many people have been deceived (and will be deceived) by this man and his ministry.

Can you expound upon your statement and explain? I think if you make such an accusation that you should give facts. I don't think it is helpful to say things like this without giving proofs. I am sure you have reasons or at least hope so since you are making such authoritative claims on quite important matters. I would like to hear them I believe it would be beneficial.

I
iansmith

There's a thing called google, all the information is there if you want to look for it.

First of all, Mike Bickle has been associated with many false prophesies (as part of the Kansas City Prophets and the Prophetic Movement) and has recently been pushing a lot of new age doctrine and eastern mysticism in his teachings. There is a strong emphasis on contemplative prayer and meditation.

Like many cults in their early stages, many members are manipulated through fear, guilt, shame or expectations of leaders to sacrifice their time, money and plans in order to build up the church -there are plenty of stories online of young people that have been abused in these ways in the IHOP ministry.

There is an over emphasis on experience within the IHOP ministry, and they are associated with some very heretical movements around the nation (including a recent revival in Florida and all of the dog barking up in Toronto).

Simply put, avoid Mike, avoid the pancakes (ha ha) and avoid Kansas City.

D
davidt

Ian,

There's a thing called google, all the information is there if you want to look for it.

I know about google and have studied much on the topic. Even in that I am open to more comments that I have possibly not considered.

I was mainly responding to you. In that you made an accusation but did not give any reasons, nor did you provide proofs, and I feel it is your responsibility to do so in such a case.

And, I was wanting you to share your thoughts so that I could respond.


associated with many false prophesies

Again you should provide reasons/ proofs/ evidences for you claims. What false prophecies are you talking about?


pushing a lot of new age doctrine and eastern mysticism in his teachings. There is a strong emphasis on contemplative prayer and meditation.

What is the proof that there is new age doctrine or eastern mysticism? There is nothing wrong with contemplative and meditative prayer. We are supposed to contemplate God and meditate on Him and His word.


manipulated through fear, guilt, shame or expectations of leaders to sacrifice their time, money and plans in order to build up the church

There is nothing wrong with persuading someone in light of the fear of God. The fear of God does bring shame and guilt and so forth yet conviction is a good thing.

I would also like to note that this ministry does not mainly focus on pressuring people to such things but much grace is emphasized and this ministry has even often been accused of emphasizing it too much.

This is what evangelist do to bring people to God. Or brethren do in exhorting each other. So this in and of itself is not bad.

If it were based on a false premise or a false motive then this would be called manipulation.

Again you fail to provide proofs but only offer an accusation.


there are plenty of stories online of young people that have been abused in these ways in the IHOP ministry.

I have not really come upon many. Even so those that there are can you know whether these people are not compromised and so give a compromised testimony as many do after leaving a Church. I remember reading of Hudson Taylor and how many missionaries were upset with him that he encouraged them to the mission field. There can even be extreme and fault but this does not totally discredit a fellowship.


There is an over emphasis on experience within the IHOP ministry,

How so? I would say there is too little emphasis on experience in the Church. Christianity is an experience if you don't have an experience you don't have Christianity. Paul prayed that we would have a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him. Did Tozer and Ravenhill focus too much on experience? This is eternal life that you may know "experience/ spiritual revelation" Him.


and they are associated with some very heretical movements around the nation (including a recent revival in Florida and all of the dog barking up in Toronto).

There is a difference between association and imitation. David Ravenhill is associated with many of these ministries and so is Paul. You can be associated with a ministry and be far different from it.

As for the Florida thing I noted earlier that it was not emphatically effectual in the IHOP community nor was it claimed to be a lofty end time revival ect ect. Other then some emotional hype and exciting hoopla you would have to point out some things that are heretical essentially in it and even in that show that IHOP agrees with it. Men like Andrew Strom believe in Azusa Street Wigglesworth and many other types and many of them had pretty strong errors. King David had errors, Solomon did, Peter at times did, and so on.


and all of the dog barking up in Toronto).

Bickle said that He believed that God was working in Toronto but that there was also a mix and some really bad stuff in it too. So in that I am confident that he rejects dog barking and other things like that.


avoid the pancakes (ha ha)

I think in light of what you are saying this statement does not carry a spirit of brokeness and humility. When you rebuke, condemn, damn, accuse someone or something you have to do it with lowliness and meekness and not a mocking spirit. Even if these were your enemies and you laughed at their calamity you would be judged for that.

I believe it is a bit childish to make such remarks as "pancakes". What if a ministry in the west had certain initials that in the east stood for a pancake store would that be funny? Not really because everything doesnt revolve around prominent franchises.


So, in conclusion this is one of the reason I wanted you to respond. I thought that possibly as usual you would have these certain reasons that are far from valid and under some scrutiny show to be silly and erroneous. I can say that there are some hard things to deal with but I am persuaded that you have not provided any actual factual basis's or meaningful reason for your accusatory case. I think the burden of proof still stands on your shoulders since you have said such things as I feel I have answered your criticism clearly and soundly.

I
iansmith

My hope was to make a quick post to warn people about this ministry, not go into a deep conversation about their theology or practices. I am a graduate student studying missiology, I have a heavy reading and writing load as it is and don't have much time to spend on topics not directly related to my studies.

As someone who has been involved in an abusive church and as someone studying missiology, with experience in missions and in missions mobilization I believe that I have enough experience and knowledge to spot a dubious ministry.

As for the 'Prophetic Movement' and the 'Kansas City Prophets,' there is more than enough documentation on the internet to turn up a few warning signs. (Also do some searches on Bob Jones and Paul Cain).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostolic-Prophetic_Movement

Contemplative prayer is also a big warning sign to me because it is all tied up with a surge of new-age, eastern mysticism and neo-Catholicism which is sweeping into Pentecostalism and seeping into Evangelicalism. Some other words to watch out for are 'Spiritual Formation,' and 'Emergent.'

There are lots of great resources for discerning the problems with people like Eugene Peterson, Rob Bell, Brian McLaren etc.

As far as your comments regarding fear or guilt as a legitimate reason for people to get involved in missions -I would say that you are completely wrong. Take a course called Perspectives (http://www.perspectives.org) and get a clear, concise and biblical understanding of Missions in 15 weeks.

I would also recommend that you read a book called 'Churches that Abuse' by Ronald Enroth.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Churches_that_Abuse
Here is the PDF:
http://www.reveal.org/development/Churches_that_Abuse.pdf

When you rebuke, condemn, damn, accuse someone or something you have to do it with lowliness and meekness and not a mocking spirit.

Lighten up, watch this: http://www.marshillchurch.org/media/religionsaves/humor

D
davidt

Ian,

My hope was to make a quick post to warn people about this ministry, not go into a deep conversation about their theology or practices.

My hope was 2 fold. First, I don't think you should make lofty statements without giving reasons. Second, to correct you in your common misgivings especially since these things are written in an open forum.

If you don't have time to post that is fine but I would say don't make such posts without expecting to have to at least give some backing behind your post especially in this type of case.


As someone who has been involved in an abusive church and as someone studying missiology, with experience in missions and in missions mobilization I believe that I have enough experience and knowledge to spot a dubious ministry.

I also have gone to school and studied thoroughly and ministered to many places missionally and I also believe I know what I am talking about especially since I have spent more time in actuality observing things first hand.


As for the 'Prophetic Movement' and the 'Kansas City Prophets,' there is more than enough documentation on the internet to turn up a few warning signs. (Also do some searches on Bob Jones and Paul Cain). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostolic-Prophetic_Movement

Warning signs? I am sure there are some things wrong and even some pretty serious mistakes. However there would have to be essential problems that are continued upon in order to discredit a ministry. And I have studied those things which you are referencing.


Contemplative prayer is also a big warning sign to me because it is all tied up with a surge of new-age, eastern mysticism and neo-Catholicism which is sweeping into Pentecostalism and seeping into Evangelicalism. Some other words to watch out for are 'Spiritual Formation,' and 'Emergent.'

There is nothing wrong with contemplative prayer in and of itself in a biblical context. I understand that there is a lot of error generally but you cannot generalize.

As for the emergent movement one of the main things that IHOP denounces is the false emergent movement. So as you should see you have erred in grouping IHOP into this mess.


There are lots of great resources for discerning the problems with people like Eugene Peterson, Rob Bell, Brian McLaren etc.

I dont see how any of this ties in with IHOP.

Also, I don't know this for sure but I think Mars Hill is tied in with Rob Bell which you later refer to. I have been to Mars Hill and liked it except for it's reformed emphasis, but I thought I have heard something that Mark is a part with Rob.


As far as your comments regarding fear or guilt as a legitimate reason for people to get involved in missions -I would say that you are completely wrong. Take a course called Perspectives (http://www.perspectives.org) and get a clear, concise and biblical understanding of Missions in 15 weeks

Fear and guilt is a legitimate motivation for ministry it is biblical. Paul said woe is me if I preach not the Gospel. Ezekiel was told he would be guilty of the judgment of men he did not preach to. There is also the parable of the talents. If you do not believe that fear and conviction is a valid motivation for obedience then you adhere to a liberal theology. The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom and to fear God is to depart from sin. The list goes on... I am not saying that that is the only motivation but I also said that IHOP as you claimed does not primarily place conviction and responsibility on people for ministry.

I have a sound biblical view of ministry and have also read theological books on the matter it is not like it is some deep complex topic.


I would also recommend that you read a book called 'Churches that Abuse' by Ronald Enroth.

I also understand about abusive Churches. First from experience but also the denomination I was a part of often preached against Lording it over the flock and fleecing them and also about pentecostal emotional extremes and so forth. There is a difference from guilt, conviction, rebuke, chastening, discipline, and abuse, manipulation and so forth.


When you rebuke, condemn, damn, accuse someone or something you have to do it with lowliness and meekness and not a mocking spirit.

Lighten up, watch this: http://www.marshillchurch.org/media/religionsaves/humor


You are telling me to lighten up and you are writing posts about how this ministry is from the devil. I would lighten up if this were a light matter. And I really am not being very heavy I was just bringing some light instruction. You might call this humor but I was not sure if it was mockery especially in light of the fact that you condemn this ministry. Even if it were humor I don't see its place its place in context to your defamatory remarks. You cant call out someones ministry and then humor them.


Concluding, you cant just read books and go to a college and think you can come to great truth that way. The vast majority of the professed Church lay ministers have studied much at seminaries and such and have only come to deception. God has to teach you spiritually as well. I went to a bible college for years and studied 10 hours a day or more even during breaks and was not able to come to complete truth on many matters until the Lord broke through. There is a major spiritual war and it must be fought spiritually not merely taught seminarily. Also you must have apostolic obedience you cant just be comfortable in your denomination and follow you pastors like Messiahs you actions dictate your doctrine. Many heresies come from the flesh and until you are free from it you will not have right doctrine and especially not heart doctrine. It seems also probable to me that you have come to your conclusion off of cult website. I believe this method can be very helpful but is also a very shallow attempt. Unless you have been here met the people encountered the Lord have prophetic insight and so forth then you ought to watch what you say. Even doing missions does not make you great. Missions is merely crossing a governmental border and mixing into a different culture. It is not much different then preaching in the US where over 90% of people are not Christian. So, all I am saying is I think you dont know really what you are talking about until you have certain credentials to say so and I also believe many of your arguments have fallen apart and if you do have some essential proof that can discredit the ministry you have yet to provide evidence and have only made statements like contemplative prayer, the fear of the Lord, and so forth which in and of themselves have nothing wrong with them. I am not writing with a bad attitude I am only trying to get my point across which I believe to be valid.

As for my point on seminaries I believe this sums it up shortly in the video
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77xWI8PnvJs]click here[/url]

C
crsschk

davidt,

I want to put the disclaimer tone right up front; what follows is some observations and considerations and are not 'personal'.

I did 'cherry pick' these but have read through the thread for the greater part, skipping over some of the longer extrapolations in particulars (Israel, replacement theology, scriptural ... exegesis, etc.)

You say they are of another spirit but somewhat of note I would like to say that this is a ministry that both Leonard Ravenhill and Art Katz have been a friend of since its beginnings even til their deaths to a somewhat substantial level. And so in this I mention possibly your own prophets. This is not even to mention the vast fruit that is being produced in the lives of saints.

That is at best a bit misleading. Incidents are not precedents and I think you are stretching the credulity of their involvement. It is not the larger of the points by any means, but I will go on.

[i]Do you ever notice that God always seems to be raising up a new generation of ________________ (fill in the blank)[/i]

I hope He is.

You must understand that the Lord is going to strengthen His Church in the last days which we are in. The Bible does say in the last days I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh.

You might also be careful not to form a mocking scoffing spirit.

On the contrary, is it not really more your [i]assumption[/i] and also a duplicity that you might think this is so .. to imagine evil of a brother, guess at his motivation from a simple comment?

The truth of the matter is that that is a very accurate statement. These 'new' things are postulated almost daily and are so vague, so indiscriminate, so care-less-ly stated that they mean nothing. There are two responses I would forward; Are they [i]evident[/i]? And if so, where is the [i]evidence[/i]? This prophetic business as it has turned into has multitudes hanging on these people's words and far too often without any testing whatsoever. Not only the test of scripture but moreover just the test of, dare I say it, common sense. What I do see as evident is a certain 'likability' of these men that gives them a pass, clouds their judgments and far too often will use other avenues as support. Much of this is what you are doing here. To be honest, I am somewhat unbiased towards most of this - I see those aforementioned 'other avenues' as worthy, as all well and good, but not at the expense of those concerns that others have mentioned and shared. I know you want staunch, precise-examples but I also see where that is where you come in with a non-stop defense and refuting. There are links elsewhere, have you taken them into account and tried to look at them without your bias? I think the reluctance of getting into all of this is due to those very factors ...

All of that leads to my main point;

Sorry about making so many posts about this topic I guess but I have just been coming upon these resources progressively. So here is an audio message ...


I know about google and have studied much on the topic. Even in that I am open to more comments that I have possibly not considered

My comment to you and by your own admission, is that you are far too taken up with all of this. Too many posts. Too ready to come to the defense. Too emotionally attached to a lone ministry. David, it's evident.

A consideration ... Sometimes the only way to get some perspective and hear the concerns of your own Brethren is to detach yourself from what is 'so up in your ears' at any given moment. Go away from it for a season, turn your thoughts elsewhere, be challenged on a different line altogether - These things can sway us even subtly, they begin to color our thinking, give us a certain slant and bent, we get all bound up in them. I hope you can trust I am speaking from a great deal of experience. This very forum would prove it out.

And for the detractors and others, you might find some of the same things applicable here.

I
iansmith

Slight difference between 'Mars Hill Church' and 'Mars Hill Bible Church.' Which has lead to a lot of confusion.

http://www.marshillchurch.org/
Mark Driscoll is reformed in his doctrine, holds to the orthodox teachings of the bible -his close relationship with John Piper should be a source of comfort for many people on this forum. He preaches reformed theology and doesn't hold punches when it comes to sin. He has also told Rob Bell to repent.

http://www.marshill.org/
Rob Bell is at the forefront of the reformed movement. He denies the virgin birth of Jesus, he denies the deity of Jesus, he is openly supportive of homosexuality within the church. He has adopted many new-age teachings on spirituality and practices from eastern mysticism. When I say 'stay away from this guy' I say it very emphatically. Bad news!

Contemplative prayer is something that many people have recently resurrected, but doesn't have its roots in historic Christianity, instead it has its roots in Buddhism, Taoism and Hinduism. Contemplative prayer first made inroads into Christianity through the monastic movement. The Desert Fathers, influenced by 'holy men' from other religions coming into the Eastern Roman Empire through the silk road were first exposed to this type of prayer and began to teach it to their disciples.

As someone who works primarily with people from a Buddhist and Animistic background, I am more than aware of what has been imported to Christianity through the back door. The way that the people at IHOP, Mars Hill Bible Church and Eugene Peterson, Richard Foster etc. are trying to teach people how to pray is Neo-Catholic, they are taking a form that was rejected by our Protestant forefathers and hoisting it back into the modern church -I say we need to be discerning and reject it as heresy.


D
davidt

crsschk,

Quote: You say they are of another spirit but somewhat of note I would like to say that this is a ministry that both Leonard Ravenhill and Art Katz have been a friend of since its beginnings even til their deaths to a somewhat substantial level. And so in this I mention possibly your own prophets. This is not even to mention the vast fruit that is being produced in the lives of saints.

That is at best a bit misleading. Incidents are not precedents and I think you are stretching the credulity of their involvement. It is not the larger of the points by any means, but I will go on.


First, I said "somewhat".

Second, I believe these to be more then incidents.

Art Katz:
From my understanding through research. Mike Bickle was a conservative minister who didn't really even believe in prophecy or tongues. He had recently met Bob Jones and was testing him as to his authenticity as a prophet. Art visited a meeting and was talking to Bob in the back. Art later told Mike that Bob was a true major prophet because he had told him his dream and interpreted it. They went on to have a all night meeting with the 3 of them in which they talked of deep things and wept in the presence of the Lord. Art continued to speak at IHOP from time to time he and Mike held a very similar eschatology and even before Art's death he came to speak in KC and the message was not a damning message but in fact had grown endeared to many. This is largely derived from the Encountering Jesus series on the prophetic history of IHOP. Some of his writings are main textbooks for the seminary in KC "Apostolic Foundations".

Leonard Ravenhill:
He would come and preach at the prayer meetings from its very outstart. The prayer meetings have actually been happening for over 20 years. There are tapes of Leonard and Mike praying for revival together. Mike and the so called KC prophets were tied in with John Wimber and the Vineyard. Keith Green who ministered with Leonard was also involved with the Vineyard and his wife lives in KC and is involved with IHOP and spoke this weekend even. Leonard became friends with John and put on an extended conference at the main Vineyard in Anaheim. Leonard seemed to really like the people and you can hear some of those sermons on SI. If you watch the old Revival Conference q&a you will hear Leonard speaking of Paul Cain and quoting his prophecies specifically about the billion being saved. Some of his writings are main text books for the seminary in KC "Why does revival tarry?"

So, in conclusion I believe these are more then just incidents and are actually quite substantial.


Quote: Do you ever notice that God always seems to be raising up a new generation of ________________ (fill in the blank)

Quote: I hope He is. You must understand that the Lord is going to strengthen His Church in the last days which we are in. The Bible does say in the last days I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh. You might also be careful not to form a mocking scoffing spirit.

On the contrary, is it not really more your assumption and also a duplicity that you might think this is so .. to imagine evil of a brother, guess at his motivation from a simple comment?


I said "might". I also said "careful" which was not to say do not do but more cautionary which is always a good thing. I will add though as I overlook this again that I may have been wrong in even saying might or thinking possibly. I probably did make a mistake here in my analysis and if so apologize to Mahoney in this specific circumstance.


The truth of the matter is that that is a very accurate statement. These 'new' things are postulated almost daily and are so vague, so indiscriminate, so care-less-ly stated that they mean nothing. There are two responses I would forward; Are they evident? And if so, where is the evidence? This prophetic business as it has turned into has multitudes hanging on these people's words and far too often without any testing whatsoever. Not only the test of scripture but moreover just the test of, dare I say it, common sense. What I do see as evident is a certain 'likability' of these men that gives them a pass, clouds their judgments and far too often will use other avenues as support. Much of this is what you are doing here. To be honest, I am somewhat unbiased towards most of this - I see those aforementioned 'other avenues' as worthy, as all well and good, but not at the expense of those concerns that others have mentioned and shared. I know you want staunch, precise-examples but I also see where that is where you come in with a non-stop defense and refuting. There are links elsewhere, have you taken them into account and tried to look at them without your bias? I think the reluctance of getting into all of this is due to those very factors ...

It may be for some but the specific topic is about accusation against IHOP. If you tie IHOP in with others that is false generalizing.

The bible says that God will pour out his spirit in the last days therefore the last days generation will be anointed. I think also that we often do not expect enough. For example Philip had 7 daughters who were all prophets. When was the last time we have seen this mainstream and genuine? I hope and trust that this will happen again.

I do agree with you that there is much error going on and not enough testing. I also believe in contrast that some people have not faith nor encounter and revelation.

As for me personally I do not have any false motives or premises like the likability of men and so forth. It is actually the opposite I am from a more conservative background and have gone against all that natural stuff that you talk about.

My reason for talking about Leonard and Art was to respond to the accusations of "being of another spirit". If one says that such and such is of another spirit and then takes the spirit of others who take the spirit of the aforementioned then that is inconsistent. I think that the testimony of godly men is a legitimate avenue as a testimony though not complete as scripture but still helpful.

You earlier said that I was falsely charging others with false intentions. You are now doing that to me. I do not hold to my position based on the likability of men and there is no solid reason to think that I do. I do not have a non stop defense and refuting. I am open to the truth and only respond and correct where it is needful. If I found something to be right I wouldnt deny it. I have studied these things without reluctance and actually my bias has from the start been against IHOP. So I find this to be offensive and unfounded meaning this is a wrong and hurtful testimony and I do not believe you have basis for thinking and saying such things.


All of that leads to my main point;

Quote: Sorry about making so many posts about this topic I guess but I have just been coming upon these resources progressively. So here is an audio message ...

Quote: I know about google and have studied much on the topic. Even in that I am open to more comments that I have possibly not considered

My comment to you and by your own admission, is that you are far too taken up with all of this. Too many posts. Too ready to come to the defense. Too emotionally attached to a lone ministry. David, it's evident. A consideration ... Sometimes the only way to get some perspective and hear the concerns of your own Brethren is to detach yourself from what is 'so up in your ears' at any given moment. Go away from it for a season, turn your thoughts elsewhere, be challenged on a different line altogether - These things can sway us even subtly, they begin to color our thinking, give us a certain slant and bent, we get all bound up in them. I hope you can trust I am speaking from a great deal of experience. This very forum would prove it out.


I did not say that I was too taken up in this. I was speaking specifically to the person in which I was responding about Israel. I was saying that I had made multiple responses on the topic of Israel and the reason for doing so was because I was coming upon the resources progressively since I had prior not really looked for apologetic articles on Israel since I have largely not needed them. I also said "I guess" what I meant by that was that I guess which means in my specific terminology not really. My mindset was sorry for making so many posts because I did not want to overhaul the person with resources but I explained why. So, this was not in regards to IHOP in general. I have studied diligently in the matter because of its importance but I am not too far erroneously.

I don't think I have made too many posts. I have mainly been responding to peoples comments that I feel to be harmful and incorrect.

I think that I am an open minded and reasonable person and takes things with sincerity and humility.

I am not emotionally attached to a lone ministry.

You say it is evident but on what basis because I have made some posts about it and responded to hurtful and false claims and respect the teaching that comes forth.

I have often been detached from it. Let me say more completely I don't think you quite understand the situation. I come from a conservative background. I attended an internship and actually left it half way through because I was not comfortable with many charismatic and lofty claims and my bias was against such things. I have been separated from IHOP for exteneded periods of times a few times. I study widely and am not under a great deal of influence. And even if I were I have a growth and resiliance in the Lord and the scriptures that anchors me.

I trust that you do have experience. I also have experience. In this case I would possibly say that I have more first hand experience.


In conclusion, I do not believe I have said anything wrong. I am not by any means doing any of the list of things that you are guessing that I do. And I think you do not have half of the story. I am confident that the statements that many have made have been way off base and very unreasonable and that I have spoken soundly in correcting such allegations. I could go on as I already have but I think you get the point. I am also not writing with a bad attitude just to let you know since there are cyber medium limitations. If I have said or have some error let me know and I am open to it the rebuke of a righteous man is like oil to my head. I am not pumped up or over zealous or so on but am just trying to write plainly and literally. Also you posts about IHOP in generalization with others cannot stand. Mike for instance will say that there is much error in the prophetic movement recently he said that most words he hear he thinks to himself these are lies or that person is crazy or his spirit feels sick. This is in love and truth with right motive so I would hope that you would see it for what it is and not lock my thread ban me from the forum for such things.

D
davidt

Ian,

Slight difference between 'Mars Hill Church' and 'Mars Hill Bible Church.' Which has lead to a lot of confusion.

Thanks for the info.


Contemplative prayer is something that many people have recently resurrected, but doesn't have its roots in historic Christianity, instead it has its roots in Buddhism, Taoism and Hinduism. Contemplative prayer first made inroads into Christianity through the monastic movement. The Desert Fathers, influenced by 'holy men' from other religions coming into the Eastern Roman Empire through the silk road were first exposed to this type of prayer and began to teach it to their disciples. As someone who works primarily with people from a Buddhist and Animistic background, I am more than aware of what has been imported to Christianity through the back door. The way that the people at IHOP, Mars Hill Bible Church and Eugene Peterson, Richard Foster etc. are trying to teach people how to pray is Neo-Catholic, they are taking a form that was rejected by our Protestant forefathers and hoisting it back into the modern church -I say we need to be discerning and reject it as heresy.

I understand that there is false prayer. I know there is a false prayer movement, false religions that influence, and so forth. However this does not mean that IHOP is in accord with it.

There is a false and a true contemplative prayer. You can contemplate God in prayer in a way that is not evil:

Contemplate
1 .To look at attentively and thoughtfully.
2. To consider carefully and at length; meditate on or ponder: contemplated the problem from all sides; contemplated the mystery of God.

As for the emergent movement and prayer and Rob and Eugene I know that IHOP preaches emphatically against the emergent movement and so in that its leaders. So therefore the 2 can not be tied together in the sense of their prayer.

As for the other I cannot say a lot. I have not heard anything substantially wrong with Richard Foster. If he did have something wrong that were not essential that would be a situation of chew the meat and spit out the bones. I have also heard that the Catholic Church has historically had good in it like Augustine for instance and so I cannot say that the monastic movement is all false.

Just because the protestants rejected something does not necessarily mean they were right. From what I have read many were militaristic murderers. And though they had reformed they still had a ways to reform. Often as well when someone reforms from something they often in zeal go to the opposite extreme.


So, there are no actual proofs here to discredit IHOP. There are comparisons. There are generalizations. There are statements. There are seeming ties. But, none of these are actual proofs to discredit. Do you agree with this? Or are there any actual proofs?

R
Ruach34

This thread is beginning to look like the 'Davidt' hour or 'Late-night on davidt' channel. Forgive the snide remark but David, did you not hear anything Mike Balog wrote. Please consider taking a break and simmerin' down now...

'Unless a grain of wheat fall into the ground and dies it abideth alone...'

all of us; our emotions, brain activity, intelligence, comfort, will etc...(you get the picture) must die. Our whole self-life must die and until it does we are only asserting our SELF life.

'but if it dies, it bears much fruit.' [John 12:24}

Please consider the words of the moderator. i personally have not found more solemn, God-focused and Spirit-led moderators anywhere on this wide world of web-dom.

D
davidt

Ruach,

This thread is beginning to look like the 'Davidt' hour or 'Late-night on davidt' channel.

This thread has nothing to do with me. Have I spoken often of myself? I think at most my nickname has my name. Have I been trying to push my own specific agendas that lift me up? Almost wholly I have been responding to false hurtful accusations against Israel, IHOP, Eschatology in general, and some against myself personally. Or is it my many posts? Because I believe I haven't posted more then maybe 2 a day.

Usually when a person does not agree with a topic that someone is talking about and they are not able to prove it false they begin to attack the person instead of the message. Sometimes this is just but I do not believe I have given any reason for this. I do not believe I have ever displayed an argumentative spirit, an over zealous ignorant extremism, or any other number of things.

I think you are possibly presuming things and ought to retract the things you have said. You have no grounds to make such a statement.


did you not hear anything Mike Balog wrote.

I did. I read through it. Did you not read my post? If you had I believe you would see that I did.


Please consider taking a break and simmerin' down now...

Why would I take a break? Have I done something wrong because I would readily admit if I am or did. I earlier made it a point to explain that I was not hyped up but was mainly responding to attacks that were saying certain ministries were of the devil and so on. I was only writing things literally but not with a bad attitude. I also have not overly posted or pushed things to extremes.


'Unless a grain of wheat fall into the ground and dies it abideth alone...' all of us; our emotions, brain activity, intelligence, comfort, will etc...(you get the picture) must die. Our whole self-life must die and until it does we are only asserting our SELF life. 'but if it dies, it bears much fruit.' [John 12:24}

I don't understand why you would say I am not dead to myself or bearing fruit even specifically in this instance.


Please consider the words of the moderator. i personally have not found more solemn, God-focused and Spirit-led moderators anywhere on this wide world of web-dom.

I understand I am not questioning anyone's godliness or maturity. I have considered the words thoroughly and patiently. If you have read my posts you would see my reasons. I also would ask you to consider my posts. I also believe myself to be solemn, God focused, and Spirit lead. It seems to me that you have not read them or at least understood them for if you had you would not be posting such things as you have. You have made statements based on presumptions and without reason and I exhort you to re examine yourself in this.


In the end I do not even want a post about me to be about myself. But, I hope that in responding I will be able to show that it is not. Also, to remove accusations off of me so that what I say is not made void. And, so in this bring things away from me and back to the topics. And I don't even really want to make it about the topics in a debating way but I feel it needful to instruct certain errors on certain topics for edification.

S
sermonindex

When I awoke this morning and went to my morning devotions, I'm in the "little psalter" right now:
Psalms 101-110, the Spirit reminded me of what I had read the day before that you posted and the Spirit said to me, "This is profitable", so I cut and paste this to a Doc:

Pray Daily: Spending 2 hours in prayer and Word (Book of Revelation once a week for 3 years)
Pray Daily: Spending 2 hours in prayer and Word (Book of Revelation once a week for 3 years)

Fast Weekly: Setting your heart to fast 2 days a week as a lifestyle *

Speak Boldly: Standing as a faithful witness in allegiance to Jesus' heart for the Church, Israel and the nations

Do Justly: Doing works of justice focusing on the fatherless and oppressed

Give Extravagantly: Giving to the prayer movement (beyond our tithe)

Live Holy: Walking out the Sermon on the Mount and keeping the Purity Covenant

Lead Diligently: Leading weekly prayer meetings and Bible studies (focused on training forerunners)


To me, the most simple roadmaps are the best. To those who can read long theological tretises and essays, O' God bless them, I like the simple maps, this is very good and profitable for me.

Thank you and God bless you, and davidt, God bless you dear brother.

If any of you have a chance and the leading read Psalm 104 today, it made me think of the majesty of God's creation, and it made me think of the upcoming planting season; how wonderful it is to walk thru a glade of oak and locust trees coming to life, to see milk cows eating the first gleanings of pastures, to smell the new breath of life in the fields, to watch the bees go too and fro, to see the first emerging winterwheat.

How I long for the green country, Psalm 104, true this "earth" is passing away, rolled up like a garment, but now, this time, He created it, we care for it, and recieve His blessing from it.

How I long for the green country, just to sit under a wild cherry tree and praise His Holy Name, contemplate Jesus, meditate on His Word, and sup of the Good Things that are here and now, recognizing how much greater there awaits.

Psalm 104 brothers and sisters.

G
ginnyrose

Mark Driscoll is reformed in his doctrine, holds to the orthodox teachings of the bible -his close relationship with John Piper should be a source of comfort for many people on this forum. He preaches reformed theology and doesn't hold punches when it comes to sin. He has also told Rob Bell to repent.

Not everyone is pleased with Mr. Drisoll's ministry. Here are excerps of an email I got today from "Christian Newswire". I deleted portions for obviouis reasons.

"For years, Pastor Mark Driscoll of Mars Hill Church in Seattle has styled himself as hip and relevant and gritty. He's made a name for himself with his irreverence, his ultra-cool persona and most of all, for his crass discussion of sexual matters. It is this discussion of sexual matters that is increasingly removing Mr. Driscoll from the company of Christians who believe he long ago crossed a line of acceptable conduct for an evangelical pastor.

Pastor Driscoll, DELETED Driscoll also sees himself as a sex advice counselor on his Mars Hill Blog, DELETED In short, he makes Planned Parenthood instructional videos look tame.

The fact that this press release is unlikely to make it through Internet filters speaks for itself. Author and former head of Eagle Forum in Washington state, Cathy Mickels, issued a press release yesterday, decrying the foul material being passed off in the name of relevant ministry by Mr. Driscoll. I join Mrs. Mickels in her profound disgust that this pastor has been legitimized and endorsed by leading Bible teachers like John Piper and Erwin Lutzer. Driscoll is allowed the platform that he has because Christian leaders have not said, "enough is enough!" Women are now having to speak up about the degrading and filthy content of Mr. Driscoll's "ministry."

At a time when American young people are hit in the face with graphic sexuality in every facet of our culture, the church should be a safe haven where the sacredness and privacy of the act of marriage is respected by pastors. Those with sexual issues need to receive private counseling---not sex seminars in a church auditorium. For generations, Christian pastors have managed to convey the Scripture's teachings on fornication, adultery and the beauty of sexuality within marriage without sullying and cheapening it, Driscoll- style.

Mark Driscoll is a sad product of our times. While waving his orthodox doctrinal credentials, he has simultaneously embraced the spirit of the age when it comes to his treatment of sex. In the process, he is pornifying the church and only adding to the moral squalor of our culture.

Contact: Ingrid Schlueter, Co-Host
Crosstalk Radio Talk Show
414-881-5852

In short, I would NOT want any of my single, unmarried sons or grandchildren to read this stuff!! (MODS: if you deem this too [EDIT] revealing, delete this post).

ginnyrose

M
Miccah


ginnyrose wrote:



Not everyone is pleased with Mr. Drisoll's ministry.


I agree sister. When I was newly saved, I was impressed with Mr. Driscoll, but this article speaks of reasons why I no longer endorse (sp?) Mr. Driscoll's teaching methods.

Though he speaks of real life situations and things that should be addressed, his approach is something to be desired.

I think you hit the nail on the head when you said, "I would NOT want any of my single, unmarried sons or grandchildren to read this stuff". I do want to point out that I think that the majority of his teachings that I have heard are sound, but the ends do not justify the means. Also, I heard Mr. Piper say that he doesn't agree with Mr. Driscoll on these types of issues (was in a teaching I heard from Mr. Piper a few years back).

I
iansmith

Ginny,

I would take Ingrid's commentary with a grain of salt. I lived in Seattle for a good chunk of my life, and while I would consider myself very prude, I have been exposed to more overt sexual references than most people on this forum. I would consider myself pretty conservative for someone from Seattle.

Mark Driscoll's ministry is in Seattle. He talks abut the things that his congregation is concerned with. He is against homosexual fornication, he is against sex outside of marriage, he is against pornography and other sexually immoral practices.

What has gotten Mark in trouble is that he preached from Song of Solomon and actually told people what it meant -bible scholars have written about this stuff for ages, but the average person in church is totally oblivious... now you may ask, why did he do this?

Well it is in the book! Of course Song of Solomon is an allegory about Jesus' love for the church -but at the same time it is a very romantic book about the love between a man and his wife.

Mark Driscoll got in hot water because of what he said was PERMISSIBLE in a marriage!

The fact of the matter is that we live in a generation where the church is bombarded with false information on sexuality -and for the most part our response has been to ignore it and not address it. This has been a mistake and has lead to countless problems. Mark Driscoll speaks authoritatively against sexual sin, but also with freedom about what is permissible for a Christian to do within the confines of marriage -I may not agree with everything he says, but for the most part he has addressed the subject matter well.

The problem with people like Ingrid is an issue of contextualization. Ingrid is probably living in on the upper peninsula, attending a small Swedish reformed church that hasn't grown a single soul in the past 50 years, refuses to wear pants, doesn't have a drivers license and sits at her computer doling out judgmental criticism of church leaders all day.

Its easy to attack people from an insurmountable tower of self-righteousness. I have seen Mark Driscoll's ministry at work, and it is a light in the darkness in Seattle, I would encourage any of my friends or family to attend, because I believe that God is really at work there.

C
crsschk

In short, I would NOT want any of my single, unmarried sons or grandchildren to read this stuff!! (MODS: if you deem this too [EDIT] revealing, delete this post).

Not in the least, I do not know if it could have been handled better. It is beyond a state of disbelief that this is even possible ... Having this 'role' and some responsibility I followed up on it ...

It is a sad commentary on our present state of affairs, this bizarre pragmatism - The words 'tact' and 'crass' made to be meaningless with the later spun off as acceptable, championed even.

Suffice it to say that this is so bad that even the mention of it will not see the light of day here, (those that were deleted). If one wishes to search this out on their own, be forewarned, but do not even think of bringing it out here as a matter of discussion - There is nothing to discuss before the eyes and ears of those that frequent these pages. It will be deleted immediately and if necessary, locked.

Perfectly handled sister.

C
crsschk

The problem with people like Ingrid is an issue of contextualization. Ingrid is probably living in on the upper peninsula, attending a small Swedish reformed church that hasn't grown a single soul in the past 50 years, refuses to wear pants, doesn't have a drivers license and sits at her computer doling out judgmental criticism of church leaders all day.

"[i]Probably[/i]"? - 'contextualization'. Brother, is this not doing the one and same thing? That is a huge assumption.

It is more than one thing that has gotten him into hot water - Being vulgar, having no tact towards things that need not be put on public display - The care-less-ness and sloppiness of what is presented before the masses, what sort of reaction is to be expected? People are not that stupid to grasp the differences of what is done in the confines of marriage ...

"Sacred", is it now just another word to be re-defined, given a new revisionist history? Small wonder that the Church is so largely ineffective when that quip of finding the world in the church and the church in the world is so emphatically exemplified by this sort of ignorance.

S
savannah

Quote:

"Frankly, I'm confused. I don't know what people mean when they say we should "stand with Israel"".

I thought the following message clarified the answer to the question "Who is Israel" from a perspective of the full counsel of God.

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?sid=48082130523

L
Lysa

At a time when American young people are hit in the face with graphic sexuality in every facet of our culture, the church should be a safe haven where the sacredness and privacy of the act of marriage is respected by pastors.

This is EXACTLY the time that every false sexual facet that is being preached to our kids should be faced.

I listened to Mark Driscol's [url=http://www.marshillchurch.org/media/religionsaves]Religion Saves Series[/url] and if you follow the link, it is the fifth one down entitled, Sexual Sin.

There was nothing wrong with that message. He was straight forward and very Godly about the topic.

Some people cannot "hear" the God in what other people are saying because they live in a fantasy world of what they think "Christianity" should look like and sound like. Therefore they miss God and not only do they miss God but they stand in the doorway and block others from going in as well.

Go yourself and listen to it.

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