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False views concerning the church going through the great tribulation!

R
rbanks

I have noticed that many are saying that the church will go through the great tribulation. Where in the bible does it say that we are to prepare for the great tribulation? Where does it say that we are supposed to go through the great tribulation?

The scripture says that we are to look for the coming of the Lord unto salvation. We are to watch and wait unto the coming of the Lord and are to be purified as he is purified. We are to live worthy of the Lord so that we can escape all things that are coming upon the earth.

I for one am not looking to go through the great tribulation; I am looking for my Lord every moment and preparing to meet him. I want to see him and be pure as he is pure.

I believe that if you are looking to go through the tribulation then you just may get what you are looking for, but as for me, I will always be looking for my Lord to deliver me from every evil work and to present me faultless before him in glory.

Many may go through the tribulation, but I am looking for the Lord Jesus, and his great deliverance. The bible says "without holiness no man shall see the Lord". Looking for the Lord and striving to please Him, so that you will ready to meet Him in the rapture is biblical. Looking to go through the great tribulation is not the same as looking for the Lord. Fear of the great tribulation will not make you holy. The Lord is the only one who can make us Holy and ready to meet him. The bible teaches us to fear the Lord and be ready to meet him.

R
rreighe

send me and email. i dont have time tonight to explain. but i will. ok.

read matthew, and thessolonians. they talk about what to look for when jesus is coming again.

also, another quick note, this is not some fantisy we are all making up so we can put some excitement into "religion" this is biblical prophecys we belive are being fuffiled so fast it is unnormal

this site that i'm sending you a link to is based on the bible. they read from the bible then figure out what it means. they dont make up some crazy idea then find scripture to match it.

http://www.contenderministries.org


and msot of us here are not scared of the tribulation, we are infact ready and anxious to meet jesus. When will he come? "no man noeth the hour nor the day" that is in the bible, give me some time i have to make this quick.

also;
biblegateway.com.

in christ's word i will speak to you..
allan

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi there,

From what I know of the Scriptures, I don't believe that the Church (the Bride of Christ) will suffer the wrath of God (aka "the Great Tribulation"). Why do I lean toward this belief? The Church has historically suffered persecution, tribulation and the wrath of men. This will not change (and will only increase). However, the wrath of God -- the judgments that God will pour out upon the WHOLE WORLD -- has only historically been poured out upon those who did not belong to Him.

God has historically withheld His judgment from the righteous...and stores it up for the unrighteous. This was true of Noah and his family, Lot and his family, the Israelites in Egypt, the righteous in the wilderness, etc... God would not pour [u]His[/u] wrath upon Sodom if just ten righteous people would be found (even though the inhabitants of that city were ready to pour out tribulation upon the messengers). I feel that God has set a precedent in regard to His character and the targets to which He pours out His wrath. The Scriptures are clear that God has not appointed us to suffer wrath (in the same passage about the way the Lord will return - I Thessalonians 5:9). God has also promised to keep us from that "hour of trial" that will come upon the entire earth (Revelation 3:10). This is my personal view...and current direction for which I currently lean regarding to what I feel the Scriptures say on the matter.

That being said: I don't think that it is wise to state with an absolute regarding this matter. I do lean toward a belief that God will either provide a way of escape for His people [i]from[/i] His wrath...or that He will protect us [i]during[/i] that wrath (although this seems to be contrary to the descriptions of those judgments...that will destroy entire portions of the Earth). Yet I can't say that I am entirely certain either way (or [i]any[/i] way).

This has been said by many people many times. We should be prepared to face any tribulation, persecution...or even judgment...before the end of all things. Somewhere in the world today, people are [u]suffering[/u] for their faith. We should be ready to die for our Lord. However, I am entirely open to the distinct possibility that I might not suffer from the wrath of God. Like Keith Green said, "[i]Pray for pre-trib but prepare for post-trib[/i]" (this has probably been repeated many times on this website). David Wilkerson said it well, "[i]Some people believe in pre-trib. Some people believe in post-trib. I believe in 'PAN-trib.' It will all PAN out in the end[/i]!"

Either way...come Lord Jesus!!!

:-)

S
sermonindex

The is a good book called by brother Zac Poonen which is a very simple commentary of the book of revelation. Here is a quote from the Introduction:

[i]Paul said, “God encourages us in all our affliction so that we may be able to encourage those who are in any affliction with the (same) encouragement with which we ourselves are encouraged by God” (2 Cor.1:4 - Amplified).

It is not surprising therefore that the doctrine that Jesus would come secretly and take (rapture) His church out of the world, before the great tribulation, arose for the first time in a country (England) where Christians were living in comfort, and at a time (mid-19th century) when they were not facing any persecution for their faith at all. Today this doctrine continues to be proclaimed and believed by Christians who live in ease and comfort, in countries where there is no persecution against Christians at all.

Since the prayers of most Christians are basically of this order : “Lord make my life more comfortable on earth”, it is not surprising that they have gladly accepted this teaching of a pre-tribulation rapture of the church. Thus Satan has succeeded in lulling multitudes of Christians with a false comfort, so that they will be unprepared for the great tribulation when it does come upon them.[/i]

Here is the entire book online:

[b]The Final Triumph[/b]
http://www.cfcindia.com/web/mainpages/book_window.php?book=the_final_triumph


P
psalm1

One the greatest events to come will be the bridegroom returning for the bride.

The post trib. position turns this into a post trib or pre trib debate.

Notice we are exhorted at the end of the bible to declare and welcome his soon return.

20He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

21The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

We look to the return of Jesus. Not the advent of the Antichrist.
From my study I have noted the Bride is in heaven along with the wedding supper immediately before the white horsses. Therefore the rapture must precede the great tribulation.

Rev 19 7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

10And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Under a post trib format the bride mounts riderless horses as they come down from heaven.
Therefore the bride NEVER sees heaven. This is technically impossible.
Also the parable of the 10 virgins clearly points to the rapture. Bridegroom-bride-heaven

Luke 21
36Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

P
psalm1

quote

" Thus Satan has succeeded in lulling multitudes of Christians with a false comfort, so that they will be unprepared for the great tribulation when it does come upon them."
I totally disagree , this is a shaky method to discern scripture,better to let scripture interpret scripture

Actually the analogy of "unprepared" fits those that were caught unprepared for the return of the master

44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

45Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

46Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

47Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

48But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

49And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

50The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

51And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Quote;
" it is not surprising that they have gladly accepted this teaching of a pre-tribulation rapture of the church. Thus Satan has succeeded in lulling multitudes of Christians with a false comfort, so that they will be unprepared for the great tribulation when it does come upon them."

Nope,It is biblical and we are commanded to look to his return.
The false comfort,ironically, falls on those looking for the anti-christ.......no need to be ready for Jesus.

P
psalm1

Bravo rreighe! Contender is one of the few that actually look at the marrige supper,the white horses,the bride,and groom.

Will save this site.
Thanks

B
boG

Verses to emphasize: from [b]Matthew 24[/b]
[b]3.[/b] \tAnd as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

[b]15. [/b]\tWhen ye therefore shall see the [u]abomination of desolation[/u], spoken of by Daniel the prophet

My memory may be mistaken but isn't the "abomination of desolation" in the middle of the tribulation period, the 3½ year point?

[b]21.[/b] \t[u]For then[/u] shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
[b]22.[/b] \tAnd except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

For the elect's sake, what days shall be shortened?

[b]29.[/b] \t[b][u]Immediately after[/u] the tribulation[/b] of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

[b]Revelation 8
12.[/b]
\tAnd the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

I do believe this is referring to the 4th trumpet.


[b]30.[/b] \tAnd then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
[b]31.[/b] \tAnd he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

And this rapture is at the end of all these things.

Now, of course, is this really a post-tribulation rapture? Or is this another rapture? Or is there a pre-trib & post-trib rapture . . . ?

Many may go through the tribulation, but I am looking for the Lord Jesus, and his great deliverance. The bible says "without holiness no man shall see the Lord". Looking for the Lord and striving to please Him, so that you will ready to meet Him in the rapture is biblical. Looking to go through the great tribulation is not the same as looking for the Lord. Fear of the great tribulation will not make you holy.

No? Are you certain? And what if you are one of those who shall be required to endure the tribulation?
Will you still be found faithful when the Lord comes?
What if the rapture really isn't pre-trib, will your faith be shaken, will you doubt the Lord's deliverance?

"Looking to go through the great tribulation is not the same as looking for the Lord."
What if it is? What if looking for the Lord requires going through the great tribulation?

Personally, I don't care. If we are ready to stand before the devouring Flame and give an account of the grace we have received in Christ then we are ready to persevere through some brief tribulation, however terrible it may be for its time.

I agree with brother Greg, we are too comfortable and (as Ravenhill would say) desirous to be raptured from responsibility. And this frankly has zero impact upon the reality of the Christian life. The only thing that matters is that Christ is coming soon, will he find us serving him faithfully when he returns?

L
Lysa

rbanks wrote:
I believe that if you are looking to go through the tribulation then you just may get what you are looking for, but as for me, I will always be looking for my Lord to deliver me from every evil work and to present me faultless before him in glory.

This letter is all over, you can type her name and tribulation. From Corrie Ten Boom herself....

[i][b]There are some among us teaching there will be no tribulation, that the Christians will be able to escape all this.[/b] These are the false teachers that Jesus was warning us to expect in the latter days. Most of them have little knowledge of what is already going on across the world. I have been in countries where the saints are already suffering terrible persecution.

[b]In China, the Christians were told, "Don't worry, before the tribulation comes you will be translated – raptured." Then came a terrible persecution.[/b] Millions of Christians were tortured to death. Later I heard a Bishop from China say, sadly,[/i]

[b]"We have failed.
We should have made the people strong for persecution,
rather than telling them Jesus would come first.
Tell the people how to be strong in times of persecution,
how to stand when the tribulation comes,
– to stand and not faint." [/b]

[i]I feel I have a divine mandate to go and tell the people of this world that it is possible to be strong in the Lord Jesus Christ. [b]We are in training for the tribulation, but more than sixty percent of the Body of Christ across the world has already entered into the tribulation. There is no way to escape it. We are next. [/b]

Since I have already gone through prison for Jesus' sake, and since I met the Bishop in China, now every time I read a good Bible text I think, "Hey, I can use that in the time of tribulation." Then I write it down and learn it by heart.

When I was in the concentration camp, a camp where only twenty percent of the women came out alive, we tried to cheer each other up by saying, "Nothing could be any worse than today." But we would find the next day was even worse. During this time a Bible verse that I had committed to memory gave me great hope and joy.

"If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye;
for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you;
on their part evil is spoken of,
but on your part He is glorified."
(I Peter 3:14)

I found myself saying, "Hallelujah!
Because I am suffering, Jesus is glorified!"

[b]In America, the churches sing, "Let the congregation escape tribulation", but in China and Africa the tribulation has already arrived. This last year alone more than two hundred thousand Christians were martyred in Africa. Now things like that never get into the newspapers because they cause bad political relations. But I know. I have been there.[/b]

We need to think about that when we sit down in our nice houses with our nice clothes to eat our steak dinners. Many, many members of the Body of Christ are being tortured to death at this very moment, yet we continue right on as though we are all going to escape the tribulation.
[/i]

L
Lysa


psalm1 wrote:
One the greatest events to come will be the bridegroom returning for the bride.

Under a post trib format the bride mounts riderless horses as they come down from heaven.
Therefore the bride NEVER sees heaven. This is technically impossible. Also the parable of the 10 virgins clearly points to the rapture. Bridegroom-bride-heaven

Luke 21
36Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.


David's Pawson's study of the Book of [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=528]Revelation[/url]. Preferably this specific one: [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=11547&commentView=itemComments]The Rapture[/url]. But I highly recommend all 10, start at one and proceed onward.

And here are two of Zac Poonen's studies:
1. [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=157&min=280&orderby=titleA&show=20](revelation)[/url] - On pages 15 - 16 (so far!)

2. [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=157&min=340&orderby=titleA&show=20](The Last days & the Lord's coming)[/url]. All are good but check out The Great Deception.

I was pre-trib until I actually sat down for a few months and read the Scriptures for all three sides with an open mind and much prayer.

K
KathleenP

Thanks for posting this Lysa. In John 17:15, Jesus said,"I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil."

I fully expect persecution in this nation. I believe it will be instrumental in separating the wheat from the chaff. I know our whole beings cry out against the thought of physical harm, but we must be willing to accept what comes our way. He will keep us from falling.

I do want to clarify though that there is a difference between suffering the persecution we will endure as a body and the wrath that will be poured out upon the ungodly. These are two separate issues. As a saint, I expect persecution, but as one that is His servant, I believe I will be protected from the judgements.

Remember Noah, Moses, Lot, Jeremiah etc. They were kept from the evil issued to the wicked, but they were there to behold it with their eyes. We are no better than our fathers dear saints.

S
sermonindex

There are some among us teaching there will be no tribulation, that the Christians will be able to escape all this. These are the false teachers that Jesus was warning us to expect in the latter days.

This prooves that even Corrie Ten Boom can be wrong. Pre-trib or post-trib believers were not the false teachers Jesus was speaking of. You can be perfectly saved and believe either position. Our salvation does not hinge on whether we believe in the rapture or not.

Me, personally... I lean toward the thinking that we will be rescued from the wrath of God.

When my children need punishment I dont punish all 4 of them because 2 of them were being disobedient. I send the other 2 to another room and I punish the disobedient ones.

I believe God, our [b]Father[/b], operates the same way. It's as simple as that.

Obviously we can expect persecution at the hands of men. No one denies that, and for many believers in the world, it's happening as we speak. But as someone else pointed out... the Great Tribulation is a whole nuther animal.

Krispy

S
sermonindex

If it is tribulation people are looking for, preach the gospel and you will find it.

Old Joe

S
sermonindex


rbanks wrote:
I for one am not looking to go through the great tribulation; I am looking for my Lord every moment and preparing to meet him.

Others can stay if they prefer, but I won't be there.

Old Joe

S
sermonindex

I'm glad to see that this has been a civil discussion thus far. Hope it stays that way!

Krispy

B
BlazedbyGod


KathleenP wrote:
Thanks for posting this Lysa. In John 17:15, Jesus said,"I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil."

I fully expect persecution in this nation. I believe it will be instrumental in separating the wheat from the chaff. I know our whole beings cry out against the thought of physical harm, but we must be willing to accept what comes our way. He will keep us from falling.

I do want to clarify though that there is a difference between suffering the persecution we will endure as a body and the wrath that will be poured out upon the ungodly. These are two separate issues. As a saint, I expect persecution, but as one that is His servant, I believe I will be protected from the judgements.

Remember Noah, Moses, Lot, Jeremiah etc. They were kept from the evil issued to the wicked, but they were there to behold it with their eyes. We are no better than our fathers dear saints.

Amen

H
Heydave

I think there is too much casual talk about the great tribulation, that time of the great wrath of God.

We in our extended family bible study are currently in the middle of going through the book of revelation. What is so clear and shocking is the terrible outpouring of the wrath of Almighty God during this time. A third of the world's population destroyed by plagues, earthquakes, fire and brimstone, stinging creatures, no daylight, etc etc...

To say this is the same as tribulation that is currently being experienced is to REALLY mis-understand. Of course we will all suffer persecution if we live Godly lives. I don't say this to make light of the persecution our brothers are suffering at present throughout the world.

I personally believe that we in the West will see persecution that we have not experienced for many centuries and may even cost us our lives. However as I said the GREAT TRIBULATION is completely different to this. No comparison!

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Lysa

This letter is all over, you can type her name and tribulation. From Corrie Ten Boom herself....

There are some among us teaching there will be no tribulation, that the Christians will be able to escape all this. These are the false teachers that Jesus was warning us to expect in the latter days. Most of them have little knowledge of what is already going on across the world. I have been in countries where the saints are already suffering terrible persecution.

In China, the Christians were told, "Don't worry, before the tribulation comes you will be translated – raptured." Then came a terrible persecution. Millions of Christians were tortured to death. Later I heard a Bishop from China say, sadly,

I think that this assumption on the part of Corrie ten Boom is incorrect. It assumes that people like us (who don't conclude that God will pour out His wrath on His own children) are UNPREPARED or UNWILLING to suffer through persecution or tribulation. The Church should ALWAYS be prepared to suffer for the cause of Christ! The difference here, at least in a doctrinal sense, is in whether or not we will suffer through the WRATH OF GOD.

Persecution has always been around. The Old Testament prophets were murdered for their faith. Believers in the New Testament were tortured and murdered through terrible persecutions (from the days following the resurrection through the days of the Roman inquisition...to those persecuted in some muslim today).

What will make the "Great Tribulation" so "great" and "terrible?" For one, the Antichrist will be at work...deceiving the nations into even more widespread persecution of the Church -- to a point where people will assume that they are doing God a favor when they persecute us. But that isn't too different from persecution that some experience today or throughout history (just from a much more concentrated effort). What will make the "Great Tribulation" so terrible is that God will be the One pouring out His wrath (that has been "stored up")! In those days, God will pour out His wrath and destroy, in an instant, entire portions of the Earth (a third here, a third there).

The question here is whether or not God will pour that wrath upon us (his children...Christ's Bride). The notion of a "rapture" is the notion that Christ will gather His Bride BEFORE God pours out His wrath upon the Earth. Period. It doesn't teach that we should be unprepared to face trials, tribulations and terrible persecutions at the hands of men. Rather, we should expect those things...even as we should have expected them from the beginning.

I don't like the word "rapture." I prefer the word "escape" or "gathering." It might be, in my opinion, like the protection offered to Noah who was gathered into the ark before the flood (because Christ likens His coming to the days of Noah...eating and drinking and being merry before that day). It might be like the gathering of Lot and his family before the destruction of Sodom. It might be like the passover for those covered by lamb's blood during the great plagues of Egypt. It might be like a Groom who has gone to prepare a home for us...who will return to gather His Bride at a time when she (*and He) [i]knoweth not[/i]. By the way, I have always marveled at the fact that the Son doesn't know when He will return. You would think that, if He understood Bible prophecy well, He would know such a thing! Then again, it seems like Christ will return to gather His Bride...before that other Great and Terrible day when He will return to Judge the nations with the sword of His mouth.

Regardless of what you identify it with...it is simply a notion that God has not appointed us to suffer His wrath. His wrath is what will make those days so terrible...in which people will call out to mountains to fall upon them and cover them from the face of the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End and the Creator and Destroyer of all things.

How does this idea reconcile with Scriptures about believers of that time? Well, there will still be believers during that time! However, this idea explains that those will be the people who [i]became[/i] believers during that time. The rest of us will have gone to be with the Lord...gathered to be present with Him during the marriage supper of the Lamb.

However, please don't mistake the way that I currently feel regarding the End to be any sort of ultimate, undeniable doctrine that I should preach to sinners. I am not entirely sure about just how the end will come EITHER way! I do, however, get upset when I hear believers preach with authority what they believe...leaving no room for error or the possibility of being incorrect. Why can't we say that we aren't ENTIRELY certain that it will happen this way...and that we should be prepared for ANYTHING? We should be prepared for tribulation, persecution...and even the possibility of dying at the hands of God (if God so wills it). Our love for Him...and knowledge of what awaits us on the other side (to see the face of God) should help us endure through anything!!!

I just would like to caution those on EITHER side (or ANY side) of this discussion to mingle their words with the salt of being aware of our own doctrinal limitations (because those doctrines are often settled upon by our own flawed human reasoning). The Word of God does not say, with complete clarity, that Jesus will take His Bride before the wrath or God, during the wrath of God or after the wrath of God. So we are left with assumptions. That is all that these are. Someone will undoubtedly be correct...but we need to be so longing to be with Jesus that we don't really care how the end will come. To live is Christ, you know.

Just some things to think about.

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Greg...

It is not surprising therefore that the doctrine that Jesus would come secretly and take (rapture) His church out of the world, before the great tribulation, arose for the first time in a country (England) where Christians were living in comfort, and at a time (mid-19th century) when they were not facing any persecution for their faith at all. Today this doctrine continues to be proclaimed and believed by Christians who live in ease and comfort, in countries where there is no persecution against Christians at all.

Since the prayers of most Christians are basically of this order : “Lord make my life more comfortable on earth”, it is not surprising that they have gladly accepted this teaching of a pre-tribulation rapture of the church. Thus Satan has succeeded in lulling multitudes of Christians with a false comfort, so that they will be unprepared for the great tribulation when it does come upon them.

I think that Brother Poonen is wrong in this regard. There are references to the idea of an "time of escape from the Wrath of God" that date back much, much earlier than the oft-repeated year of many post-trib preachers. I have provided a few examples in the past. Yet many preachers continue to preach something as a fact what is inevitably untrue. It is odd that something is preached (that the rapture was invented by Englishmen) that might have simply been believed as evidence against the idea that God will not pour His wrath out upon His Bride. There are references of the idea of a "rapture" (although I don't like that word) much earlier than the time he supposes that the doctrine was "invented."

I certainly feel that it is presumptuous that Brother Poonen will publicly conclude that this idea is a [i]Satanic[/i] plot to throw the Church into wallowing in comfort when those of us who might lean toward such a notion are fully prepared for persecution and tribulation. Perhaps he should be a little less hasty in teaching this as if he himself knows the exact manner of the end? I am keenly aware that the End will come...and I should be prepared for whatever manner that it comes. I just don't really care too much. I just want to be with Jesus...sit with Him...suffer for Him...and finally...to see the Face of the One who made me...of whom I gladly pour out my life.

:-)

L
Lysa

When my children need punishment I dont punish all 4 of them because 2 of them were being disobedient. I send the other 2 to another room and I punish the disobedient ones.

I believe God, our Father, operates the same way. It's as simple as that.

You are exactly correct about how we discipline our children. But we all are in the same house and must watch those who are being disciplined. You don't take your children out of the house to save them from the others being disciplined do you?

Isaiah 55.9 [i]As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. [/i]

And exactly as Kathleen said, in John 17:15, Jesus said,"I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest [b]keep[/b] them from the evil." Keep does not mean removed.

L
Lysa

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
I think that this assumption on the part of Corrie ten Boom is incorrect. It assumes that people like us (who don't conclude that God will pour out His wrath on His own children) are UNPREPARED or UNWILLING to suffer through persecution or tribulation.

She bases that on the Chinese church and what the Bishop from China said, "We have failed. We should have made the people strong for persecution, rather than telling them Jesus would come first. Tell the people how to be strong in times of persecution, how to stand when the tribulation comes, – to stand and not faint."

Chris, do you think that in China they taught a different kind of pre-trib doctrine than what is being taught today in America?

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Lysa...

She bases that on the Chinese church and what the Bishop from China said, "We have failed. We should have made the people strong for persecution, rather than telling them Jesus would come first. Tell the people how to be strong in times of persecution, how to stand when the tribulation comes, – to stand and not faint."

Chris, do you think that in China they taught a different kind of pre-trib doctrine than what is being taught today in America?

I think that the mistake is the lack of differentiation between tribulation and persecution from the period known as the GREAT TRIBULATION. It will be "great" only in the sense that God will be the One dispensing the tribulation (if you know what I mean).

We should ALWAYS be prepared for tribulation, persecution and disaster. If our eyes are fixed upon Jesus...then what have we to fear?

So what should be taught?

We should certainly instruct believers to be PREPARED to endure through various manners of tribulation and persecution. Like you said, Chinese believers have endured terrible tribulation and persecution...as have many believers since the resurrection of Christ. Early believers were literally torn to pieces! They were fed to lions, killed by gladiators, crucified and even burned alive! Jews experienced horrendous persecution at the hands of the Nazis...for which Corrie ten Boom and her family were sentenced to the same fate. Yet this tribulation came at the hands of mere men (inspired by Satan, no doubt). This tribulation, however, was not the direct result of the wrath of God.

That is the key difference in this discussion. People who believe in the "rapture" (again, a terrible choice of word) don't believe that they will escape worldy tribulation. We can be assured that we will be persecuted and that we must endure through it...as overcomers citing Christ's example...as Jesus instructed us in the book of John! However, those who believe in a "rapture" simply see the Bride of Christ as being exempt from the Wrath of God that will be poured upon the entire Earth to kill and test those who are remaining.

I do think that there is a bad misconception about the beliefs of those who lean toward a belief in a "rapture" (or "gathering up") of believers before God pours out His wrath upon the world. While there are groups (like the charismatic prosperity believers) who try to teach that we can avoid hardship on this Earth -- their views in no wise make up the views of the believers who embrace the notion of such a pre-wrath gathering of the saints.

I just wanted to clarify this.

:-)

S
sermonindex

You are exactly correct about how we discipline our children. But we all are in the same house and must watch those who are being disciplined. You don't take your children out of the house to save them from the others being disciplined do you?

The other children would only witness the punishment handed out if it would also teach them a lesson (i.e. not to do it). God's wrath in the Tribulation is not meant to teach anyone anything... it's to lay down the judgement once and for all on those who rejected him. We're not all going to hell so we can witness that, are we? No, there is nothing there for us to learn.

There is a different between "corrective" punishment, and final judgement. I hate to use a term that Hitler used, but it could be said that the Tribulation Period is God's "Final Solution" on those who have rebelled against Him.

Krispy

R
rbanks

I greatly appreciate the many replies on this thread. I thank God for the Christ-like spirit expressed in the posts of people’s feelings and opinions. I am also grateful for the posts of the like minded view that has been expressed by Chris, Krispy, psalm1, and others concerning the church not having to go through the great tribulation. Here is a particular quote that I would like to comment on a little further.


ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:

That is the key difference in this discussion. People who believe in the "rapture" (again, a terrible choice of word) don't believe that they will escape worldy tribulation. We can be assured that we will be persecuted and that we must endure through it...as overcomers citing Christ's example...as Jesus instructed us in the book of John! However, those who believe in a "rapture" simply see the Bride of Christ as being exempt from the Wrath of God that will be poured upon the entire Earth to kill and test those who are remaining.

I do think that there is a bad misconception about the beliefs of those who lean toward a belief in a "rapture" (or "gathering up") of believers before God pours out His wrath upon the world. While there are groups (like the charismatic prosperity believers) who try to teach that we can avoid hardship on this Earth -- their views in no wise make up the views of the believers who embrace the notion of such a pre-wrath gathering of the saints.

I just wanted to clarify this.

:-)

Thank you brother for making this clarity! (although I don't have a problem with using the word rapture just because others have misused it)

There is a difference between tribulations, persecution, and sufferings for Christ than in the great tribulation.

Also notice in: Luke 21:36 (KJV) Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

We must not think that we will automatically be the bride of Christ and escape the great tribulation just because we are in the church. The scripture says the bride hath made herself ready and that we must be accounted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass.

There are many other scriptures that exhort us to be ready for the coming of the Lord. There are not a people on the face of this earth who can prepare themselves for the great tribulation. It will be the most horrible time known to man existence. The scripture says that God hath not appointed us to wrath but to obtain salvation.

This is what I believe from scriptural understanding and also having the spirit of Christ that is wrong about believing or preparing to go through the great tribulation. Jesus does not give us this view, he tells us to watch and be ready in an hour that you think not.

He also told the church of Philadelphia in Revelation 3:10 (KJV) Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

The view that Jesus wants us to have is of Him and his coming for us so that he can purify us as he is pure. He is the one who keeps us in all the trials of this life but they are not the great tribulation. I am one who believes that believing you will go through the great tribulation can be harmful. I also believe that believing that you will go in the rapture and escape the great tribulation automatically without heeding the words of Jesus is also harmful. The people who died as martyrs at the stake being burned did not prepare themselves to be such. They were filled with God’s spirit and were able to endure. I was reading of one who couldn’t bear the pain and cried out to God and was instantly baptized in the Holy Ghost and he began to praise God in the fire clapping his hands as the bones of his fingers were falling off. Praise God we need to be full of the Holy Ghost.

Jesus even told his disciples that they would be persecuted, killed, and be brought up to be judged for his name sake. He even told them not to prepare what they were going to say because the spirit of the Father would be in them giving them what to say.

Oh brethren! We must be filled with the Holy Ghost and the wisdom of God to be able to go through what ever trial we are face with for our Lord. We must be counted worthy of the Lord in order to escape the great tribulation and to stand before the son of man.

One other note for those who are looking to go through the great tribulation instead of looking to be caught up to be with the Lord at any moment, how are you preparing for this great tribulation. Why don’t you believe, that keeping yourself cleansed from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit knowing that he could come at anytime and you want to be caught up with him in the air so you will forever be with the Lord, will prepare you more than believing that you will go through the great tribulation.

P
psalm1

Matthew 25
1Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

2And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.

3They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:

4But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

5While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

6And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

7Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

8And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

9But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

10And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

11Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

12But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

13Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Note;
they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut

compare with;
Gen 7 16And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in.

17And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.
Compare with;
26And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

27They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

28Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

29But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

S
sermonindex

On end time events and doctrine.

The best teaching I have ever heard is right here on sermonindex....Zac Poonen's Revelation series.


I recommend it thoroughly. Listen, and form your own ideas; it is really neat.


I have learned a lot from multiple sessions in this series, and one of the deepest was that REVELATION WAS TO OBEYED!..I never considered that. Also, I was able to reconcile the bowls of wrath....[waters to blood, all green things dead, along with all of the oceans and rivers...[drinking blood...worldwide..], and Jesus's return. I agree with Poonen. We are not appointed to wrath. There will be a time, after Jesus's return, when the strokes of wrath will come, and we won't be here!


The enemies of the Lord will. He has returned, obviously, and yet there are people who cry out, "Hide us from the face of the Lamb!..and His wrath!"..."Let the rocks fall upon us!"


It is clear to me, that the Church will be gathered upon His return, and therefore before this final act of wrathful judgement when a sword comes from His mouth to destroy His enemies.


His return will come after a portion of the tribulation, and before His most terrible acts of Vengeance and punishment. This is biblical, and logical, and this series has helped me immensely to understand .


Again, make your own assessments. we are brothers whatever you decide, but as Poonen brings out, revelation is to be obeyed, and only the fruits of holiness will be gathered unto the Lord.

S
sermonindex

Matthew 11:16 But whereunto shall I liken [b]this generation[/b]? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,
Matthew 12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgement with [b]this generation[/b], and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
Matthew 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgement with [b]this generation[/b], and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

In the above quotes Jesus was speaking to the generation that He was referring to, namely the one that He was living in. Is the [b]"this generation"[/b] different than [b]"this generation"[/b] found in Matthew 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation?

I am not asking for answers, I know what the answer is. But I am putting it here for minds to come together to allow ourselves to think about what is being said and not pay attention to what we have come to know as "truth".

Sometimes truth can be shocking, especially when it disrupts what we have been taught.

P
psalm1

quote;
".....and Jesus's return. I agree with Poonen. We are not appointed to wrath. There will be a time, after Jesus's return, when the strokes of wrath will come, and we won't be here!"


Are you aware of a previous post,in this thread,
stating Poonen believes we do go through the trib.?
In fact anyone who disagrees with Mr Poonen is "deceived by satan"

Quote;
Satan has succeeded in lulling multitudes of Christians with a false comfort, so that they will be unprepared for the great tribulation when it does come upon them.
Poonen

R
rbanks


psalm1 wrote:

Are you aware of a previous post,in this thread,
stating Poonen believes we do go through the trib.?
In fact anyone who disagrees with Mr Poonen is "deceived by satan"

Quote;
Satan has succeeded in lulling multitudes of Christians with a false comfort, so that they will be unprepared for the great tribulation when it does come upon them.
Poonen


Thank you psalm 1 for your observance.

Poonen may have some truth here concerning those who believe that they will be automatically raptured without preparing to meet him but i don't agree completely.

I have tried to state in my posts to those who believe that we must prepare for the great tribulation, where in scripture are we told to prepare for the great tribulation.

It is impossible to be prepared for the great tribulation. I can't find one scripture that tells me that I must prepare for the great tribulation. I do find many scriptures that state I am to prepare for the coming of the Lord and that I am to be faithful unto the lord no matter what trials I am to face.

Lets say you believe that you will go through the great tribulation before the Lord comes to take you home with him. How do you reconcile this with watching and waiting for in an hour you think not your Lord does come.

In other words how can you be looking for him to come back for you at any moment with your heart set on Him wanting so much to meet Him in holiness and purity of heart if you believe that you will have to go through the great tribulation before he comes back for you.

The bible says that if we suffer with him we shall reign with him. The sufferings of this life are not worthy to be compared with the glory that shall be revealed in Him on that day.

What ever tribulations we have to go through in this life will be worth it just to see and be with him in glory.

Let us watch and prepare are hearts to meet Him at any moment and not even think that there must be the great tribulation for us to go through before he comes back for his bride. No, no, no let's prepare ourselves to be His bride by believing at any moment He could he could descend from heaven with a shout...praise be to the mighty God.

R
rreighe


Quote;
Satan has succeeded in lulling multitudes of Christians with a false comfort, so that they will be unprepared for the great tribulation when it does come upon them.
Poonen

in other words he has gotten the church to start degraging from the inside out by a few faithless then more and they fed off of eachother!

i persionaly am leaning toward the Pre-trib rapture. oh let me be clear that the word "rapture" will not be found in any clear true and rightly translated bibles! why? becasue the bibles use words like "twinkling of an eye" and "caught up" and "two wemon will be at a mill, one will go to the Lord, the other will be left" meaning either our bodys will drop dead or we will de-materialize into and earthly perspective of "nothingness" when that happens the antichrist will be pouring out is mess and crap against all of the nations. NO OBAMA IS NOT THE ANTICHRIST! NO ONE FROM AMERICA CAN BECOME ANTICHRIST! Obama is from here and antichrist is supposed to be from the middle east (people i trust interperate in areas near rome/romania/ rome like places) so dont worry.

search for the truth, trust God to lead you to the TRUTH and His WISDOM and He will, if you mean it and will agree with Him to be His.

also, if you are scared about the rapture happening then i am sure you are not right with God the way you know you should be. That does not include worrying about people you know... trust me i am scared for my friends and family. i love them and i dont know that they will go to heaven with me.

YOU MUST TRUST IN GOD! i dont want to sound condesinding but you dont know how much time you have left in this world! i dont know how much time i have left. i dont want you to go through the stuff prophesied in the Revelations about the wraths against the ones that are not HIs.

C
CJaKfOrEsT


ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:

From what I know of the Scriptures, I don't believe that the Church (the Bride of Christ) will suffer the wrath of God (aka "the Great Tribulation"). Why do I lean toward this belief? The Church has historically suffered persecution, tribulation and the wrath of men. This will not change (and will only increase). However, the wrath of God -- the judgments that God will pour out upon the WHOLE WORLD -- has only historically been poured out upon those who did not belong to Him.

Brother,

Over the years you have displayed yourself as someone worthy of respect, in a great many areas. However, it seems to me that your assumptions are correct, regarding the church enduring the "wrath of God", however you are mistaken in referring to the great tribulation (aka, the time of Jacob's trouble) as being that wrath of God.

I present this article, written by Reggie Kelly for your consideration.


[b]The Dangerous Presumption of Exemption from Tribulation[/b]

By Reggie Kelly

[b]Question:[/b] My "blessed hope" (Titus 2:13) is to not spend 7 years in incredible suffering and danger. Could you give any insight as to what this "blessed hope" is, if it is not a pre-tribulation rapture as I believe it is? I feel so removed from the heart and anointing of God when I consider doctrines (like yours) that are contrary to what I've known all my life.

[b]Answer:[/b] First, the "blessed hope" has been sadly misinterpreted and misappropriated if it is understood only to mean exemption from the church's common experience of tribulation (see Acts 14:22; 1Thes 3:4). The blessed hope is not exemption from tribulation, but perfected union with Jesus.

The great tribulation is not called 'unequaled' simply because of some unprecedented degree of human suffering. Though the 'scale' of human suffering will indeed be without precedent during the last tribulation, what individuals might face personally cannot be worse than what others of our brethren have faced throughout history without a rapture. The the final tribulation is said to be without equal because it extends to all the natural order. So, of course, human suffering will be co-extensive with the upheaval of a creation that has come to its greatest time of travail.

Therefore, it is not the 'degree' of personal suffering that makes this tribulation exceptional from all others, but its 'scale' of impact on the world of nature. So I ask: Do we detect a certain selfishness, or subtle presumption of moral superiority in the modern church's expectation of exemption from a last repeat of the same kind of persecution that their 'fellow servants and their brethren' have faced in every age (see Rev 6:11)? I must say that such a doctrine sounds suspiciously accommodating of a soft and untested church that has embraced the cross only in theory as a historical fact in Jesus' experience, and not as the invariable pattern of the very 'way' of God in the experience of every believer before and after Christ (but see Act 14:22).

The same is true of Jewish suffering. Except for its unprecedented global scale, the personal suffering of individual Jews throughout the 'time of Jacob's trouble' (Jer 30:7) will not necessarily exceed what their forebears have endured in past calamities. I believe that the reason this time will have such a different end from those earlier tribulations is precisely because of the presence of a martyr witness church. The church will use the prophetic key of interpretation (Dn 11:33; Mt 24:14) to explain these events in the light of God's age old covenant contention with Israel. It is something the church should be doing now.

Through God's use of the church's witness, an unprecedented entire third of the nation will be born in one day by the transforming revelation of Christ (Isa 66:8; Ezk 39:22-29; Zech 3:9; 13:8-9). This happens as the saved remnant will say with one voice, "blessed is He that cometh ..." (Mt 23:39; Zech 12:10 with Acts 3:21; Ro 11:25-26; Rev 1:7). However, this doesn't happen in a vacuum. It is the result of God's gracious use of a preceding travail and witness of the church! I see this transforming revelation in analogy with the delayed impact that Stephan's martyr witness had on Saul, the persecutor.

Of course, pre-tribulationists assign this task of final witness to Israel and the nations to the 144,000, whom they assume to be Jewish evangelists that have come to salvation sometime after the rapture. But here is a great curiosity: Pre-tribulationists acknowledge the presence in the tribulation of a witnessing people called 'the elect and the saints'. However, they deny to them the name 'church'. This brings the great question as to how we define the church, which is the real heart of the debate. In any case, it is evident that the saints of the tribulation are both 'sealed' and 'fed' (Rev 7:3; 12:6), and this does not require a rapture. How then, I ask, is the 'blessed hope' of Christ's glorious appearing any the less 'blessed' for these tribulation servants of God? One does not require removal from tribulation, or the common experience of persecution in order to be assured exemption from the wrath of God. It is a mistake to confuse tribulation with divine wrath. In fact, the judgments of the bowels of wrath are not directed on Israel or the saints, but upon the wicked that have followed the Beast.

We must not confuse the blessed hope, which is the common inheritance of every believer with some special privilege of exemption from tribulation. It is an error to suppose that our present standing in Christ owes to some moral advantage over those that are not called of God until after the tribulation has begun. The church as I understand the meaning of that term necessarily includes the saints of the tribulation and all those that God has called and will call henceforth. The saints of the present time are not entitled to a special exemption from tribulation only because their salvation has taken place on the 'happier side' of an expected pretribulational rapture. Many have represented the tribulation as a punishment for those that have neglected to avail themselves of salvation on this side of the rapture. There is a subtle humanism in this presumption that reveals an erroneous, and I think prideful view, of the very nature of divine calling, but that is another discussion.

Rather, through the refinement that comes to the church through these events (see Dn 11:35 w/ 12:7), the church will attain to its promised fullness of stature (Ro 11:25; Eph 4:13), as it gives its final witness by an obedience unto death (Rev 12:10), which results in the salvation of a number too great to number [[i]Note: This is evident since the 'tribulation' mentioned in Rev 7:14 carries the double article in Greek which is literally translated "the tribulation, the great one," showing that this vast multitude of the saved has specific reference to the future and final tribulation; see also Dn 11:33 with 12:3[/i]]. It will be the church's 'finest hour'.

Finally, I believe your aversion to consider something "contrary to what I have known all my life" is not because this necessarily removes you from "the anointing and the heart of God," but because it is inherently 'up-ending' of 'safe' and trusted categories, and this implies a suffering in its own right. It is nothing less than a holy resignation to follow the Lamb wheresoever He may lead (invariably to a death of one form or another) that can free us from the security (and sometimes presumption) of the 'safe' and the familiar. We tend to shrink from suffering, but that is the test of our profession. Why don't we consider that the church that is so manifestly 'sub-apostolic' is in this condition for a reason? We need to identify the reasons.

Through the humility that comes from the blessed experience of being completely wrong, the church will be truer priest that can more fully identify with the 'ignorant, the blind, and the out of the way'. Nothing less than a church that has passed through the searching judgment that must begin at the house of God could ever be entrusted with bearing final witness to Israel. In her final flight from Antichrist persecution, Israel will meet a humbled church that has been raised out of its own profound self-judgment. It is only a church that has known the real meaning of 'mercy' that can bring an effective witness to Israel (Ro 11:31).

I would urge you to be ruthlessly exegetical, and follow the evidence wheresoever it may lead, even to the death of some familiar categories and modes of thinking. The evidence will show that there is no trace that the early church knew anything of such a doctrine, as even the more academically informed pre-tribulationists will admit.

The time is short; the stakes are high.

Yours in the Beloved,
Reggie
October 2008

Having said all that, I like what you said here...in regards to the fact that it displays an openness to consider the alternative:


That being said: I don't think that it is wise to state with an absolute regarding this matter. I do lean toward a belief that God will either provide a way of escape for His people [i]from[/i] His wrath...or that He will protect us [i]during[/i] that wrath (although this seems to be contrary to the descriptions of those judgments...that will destroy entire portions of the Earth). Yet I can't say that I am entirely certain either way (or [i]any[/i] way).

This has been said by many people many times. We should be prepared to face any tribulation, persecution...or even judgment...before the end of all things. Somewhere in the world today, people are [u]suffering[/u] for their faith. We should be ready to die for our Lord. However, I am entirely open to the distinct possibility that I might not suffer from the wrath of God. Like Keith Green said, "[i]Pray for pre-trib but prepare for post-trib[/i]" (this has probably been repeated many times on this website). David Wilkerson said it well, "[i]Some people believe in pre-trib. Some people believe in post-trib. I believe in 'PAN-trib.' It will all PAN out in the end[/i]!"


I used to take this line, but the longer I studied the theme, facing the fact that pre-trib was all but unheard of prior to the nineteenth century, for example, I can now say that I am persuaded that we will pass through such a time. My only question is regarding whether the "great tribulation" is great because of its duration (historicism), or because of its final intensity (premillennialism). I personally lean toward a post-tribulational, pre-millennial view, preceded by a historicist foreshadowing.

Having said all this, my true focus is on the implications of it all. Like what will be required of us, during such a time, and what will prepare us to face such a divine obligation? These themes, by and large, are ignored, and can be seen in the kind of errors that are embraced in the church, with the most "subtle" and seemingly "irrelevant" being the most dangerous.

Brother (and others), this theme is amongst the most pivotal in regards to revival, and therefore it would be at our peril to ignore it. I often wonder if this is the reason why Satan would have his false apostles, prophets, teachers, shepherds, etc direct so much energy toward the spread of false propaganda regarding this time to come.

Every moment of history has been leading to such a time, and it would be a fearful thing to be left unprepared, due to us considering it to be irrelevant.

C
CJaKfOrEsT

*Edit*Sorry, double post.*Edit*

S
savannah

To any on SI that may be interested,this series of 6 messages on Dispensationalism may be of help.

Here is a link to the first in that series:

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?sid=426082328341

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi CJaKfOrEsT,

However, it seems to me that your assumptions are correct, regarding the church enduring the "wrath of God", however you are mistaken in referring to the great tribulation (aka, the time of Jacob's trouble) as being that wrath of God.
I actually tried to make such a distinction within the context of my posts on this matter. Most of the people that I know refer to the ENTIRE [u]period[/u] as “the great tribulation.” While the Satan-inspired persecutions, trials and tribulations from mankind will certainly increase during that period, this isn’t what will make that time so terrible. We aren’t even supposed to fear the evil one…or what he (or his people) can do to us. We are to fear only the One who will judge the quick and the dead. All of the terror that the Antichrist will inflict upon the world during that time PALES in comparison to the great and terrible judgments that God will pour out upon the earth. It is a result of His judgments that will cause men to pray for the mountains to fall upon them and cover them from the wrath of the Lamb (Revelation 6:16-17).

To clarify: I didn’t say that a great “rapture” will CERTAINLY take place (better words: collecting, gathering, taking, etc…). After several years of study, I do think that this is a very real possibility. Please do not misunderstand this as being entirely convinced (that is, placing my faith in [the certainty of] an [i]event[/i]). I am entirely prepared to face any persecution during my pilgrimage through the wilderness of this world. However, I am also somewhat persuaded that we are not appointed to suffer through the wrath of God. This seems quite clear to me (at least currently) from the Scriptures pertaining to time. I can’t find a single anecdote from the Word where God killed someone who literally belonged to Him while He was dispensing His wrath. Rather, there are a multitude of examples of God either protecting His people during such things…or removing them altogether before commencing such dispersion.

I do not believe that God will pour out His terrible judgment (that has been stored up for evildoers) indiscriminately upon his very children or Bride. Yet that is what will happen in those days! Entire portions of the earth will be destroyed (such as a third of the Earth…killing everything and everyone). Yes, I am aware that people will continue to turn toward God during that time. Yet the time of grace will seemingly have been completed. It seems to be a time when those who haven’t turned to God will still have a chance to place their faith upon Him in the face of great suffering from His wrath.

The possibilities, at least how I see them right now, are that God will either take His Bridge before that time (like the Jewish custom of returning to pick up the betrothed at a time that He and she “knows not”…after a place has been prepared and things are fulfilled)…or God will simply protect His children/Bride through His Wrath. I currently lean toward the former (but am open to the latter). The problem that I see with the latter is that it seemingly contradicts what is written in regard to some of His judgments. Entire thirds of the Earth will be destroyed (a third of the earth, a third of the sea, etc…).

Our Lord promised to keep the faithful FROM (as opposed to DURING or IN) the “hour of trial” that will come upon “the whole earth” (Revelation 3:10). What is the purpose of God’s wrath? It appears that it will be like the attempt by God to convince the people left alive to turn to God. Yet the Scriptures say that they will still not turn (Revelation 9:20-21). Interestingly, Revelation chapter 11 talks about the mysterious two “witnesses” who will preach to the nations. They will be killed by the wrath of men…resurrected by the power of God…and then “raptured” (in a sense) to escape the wrath of God that will be poured upon that city (Revelation 11:11-13).

Brother, I do not suppose that I know the certainty of how or when these things will take place. Perhaps we will be around and called upon to suffer through that time. I am willing to do so. However, I seem to understand (after much prayer and study) that the opposite is a very real and distinct possibility. Regardless, I feel that we shouldn’t state with a certainty about how the end will come. We aren’t to live our lives as if we know how it will all play out…but strive to live with our hearts already set upon Eternity and for the face of the One who saved us. Let the end come! No matter how it comes, it is a glorious end for those of us who know Him! Maybe we should take heed to the admonition from Jesus in Acts chapter 1…when some of His disciples were wondering about “times and seasons.” Jesus said, “[i]It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth[/i].” In other words – set your mind on things above! Remember, this might have been the very words that helped to set their hearts in one accord! What a glorious proposal!

I used to take this line, but the longer I studied the theme, facing the fact that pre-trib was all but unheard of prior to the nineteenth century, for example, I can now say that I am persuaded that we will pass through such a time. My only question is regarding whether the "great tribulation" is great because of its duration (historicism), or because of its final intensity (premillennialism). I personally lean toward a post-tribulational, pre-millennial view, preceded by a historicist foreshadowing.

I have heard this many, many times. However, I really wonder just how much research has been done into the historical teachings of the Church. Of course, many of those teachings are NOT in English (or even Greek). I have read references to this idea of God providing a “rescue” or an “escape” for people from that time that much predated that supposed 19th century claim – with at least one from 373 A.D. However, we don’t find much written teaching on ANYTHING (especially in regard to Biblical doctrines) from the first eighteen centuries following Christ’s death and resurrection. We don’t find much written about anything. Why? I’m not sure. Perhaps it was the persecution…causing men to speak verbally about such things. In fact, it seems like the issues that were written about mostly came from the corruption of Rome. We do know of a few examples from the works of Ephraem during the fourth century. I could ask the opposite…and ask for written citations that explain that the Church WILL be appointed to be around during that time. Could we even find any?

Anyway, I guess I will close by just encouraging one another to seek Christ. I don’t know that any of us know for a certainty about how the end will come. We can only look to Christ…as through a glass darkly. We should at least remember this when we concentrate on any such doctrines that aren’t entirely clear from the Word of God.

The Lord bless you and keep you. May His face shine upon you and give you peace!

:-)

R
rbanks

In the title of this thread anyone can see what I have stated concerning the false views of the church having to prepare to go through the great tribulation before the coming of the Lord.

I have not stated that the church will not go through tribulation and I have also not said that we will automatically go in the rapture.

I have stated from scripture that we are to prepare for the coming of the Lord and to be counted worthy to escape all the things coming upon the earth.

I am told that a missionary to China and mightily used of God believed in a select group called the bride of Christ would go in the rapture before the great tribulation.

Those who say that the rapture was only taught beginning in the 18th century, and that is why they don't agree with it, are you also saying they were not expecting the Lord to come back at any moment during the days of the apostles.

The scriptures here seem to tell us differently.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

It is clear that they were looking for the Lord and were expecting to be gathered together unto him. Some were teaching that the day of Christ (or day of the Lord)was at hand. They were troubled by this because they knew that the day of the Lord was vengeance on those who knew not God. They were expecting to be gathered unto the Lord to meet him in the air before the day of the Lord.

If one would do a study on the day of the Lord you will find that it is nothing to rejoice about for it will be filled with God's wrath.

I believe from scripture that the gathering of the bride of Christ will be before the day of the Lord.

P
psalm1

quote;
"Therefore, it is not the 'degree' of personal suffering that makes this tribulation exceptional from all others, but its 'scale' of impact on the world of nature. So I ask: Do we detect a certain selfishness, or subtle presumption of moral superiority in the modern church's expectation of exemption from a last repeat of the same kind of persecution that their 'fellow servants and their brethren' have faced in every age (see Rev 6:11)? I must say that such a doctrine sounds suspiciously accommodating of a soft and untested church that has embraced the cross only in theory as a historical fact in Jesus' experience, and not as the invariable pattern of the very 'way' of God in the experience of every believer before and after Christ (but see Act 14:22)."

I could not believe this guy could base his discernment on the following statement;

" So I ask: Do we detect a certain selfishness, or subtle presumption of moral superiority in the modern church's expectation of exemption from a last repeat of the same kind of persecution that their 'fellow servants and their brethren' have faced in every age"

If this logic is used to interpret the word does the following parable paint our Lord as evil?

" 8So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.

9And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.

10But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.

11And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,

12Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.

13But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?

14Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.

15Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?

16So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

P
psalm1

Quote;
"Brother (and others), this theme is amongst the most pivotal in regards to revival, and therefore it would be at our peril to ignore it. I often wonder if this is the reason why Satan would have his false apostles, prophets, teachers, shepherds, etc direct so much energy toward the spread of false propaganda regarding this time to come."

Wow such a brutal word,so eloquently spoken?

I shudder to think........and surely you are not referring to the body of Christ who embrace the rapture?

M
murrcolr


rbanks wrote:

I believe from scripture that the gathering of the bride of Christ will be before the day of the Lord.

By that you mean the Great and terrible day of the Lord where he pours his Wrath on the earth.

The Parable of the Weeds

Mathhew 13 v 24-30 Jesus told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared. "The owner's servants came to him and said, 'Sir, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?'
'An enemy did this,' he replied."The servants asked him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?' 'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.' "

First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burnt then gather the wheat.

The Parable of the Weeds Explained

Matthew 13 v 36-43 Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field." He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. "As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

So what do we learn from these scriptures.

1.Harvest is at the end of the age
2.The harvesters are angels
3.They will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.
4.They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
5.Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father.

So lets look in revelation to see if we can find the harvest.

Rev 14v14-19 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

The harvest and the weeds are gathered first.

Gods people are then gathered.

Rev 15 v 2-4 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

The wrath of God poured out on the earth.

Rev 16v 1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

R
rbanks

Lu 20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
Lu 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

C
CJaKfOrEsT


psalm1 wrote:
Quote;
"Brother (and others), this theme is amongst the most pivotal in regards to revival, and therefore it would be at our peril to ignore it. I often wonder if this is the reason why Satan would have his false apostles, prophets, teachers, shepherds, etc direct so much energy toward the spread of false propaganda regarding this time to come."

Wow such a brutal word,so eloquently spoken?

I shudder to think........and surely you are not referring to the body of Christ who embrace the rapture?

Brother,

Like many here, over the past few years, I have had to face many things that I used to believe, and realise that I was wrong. In some cases, I had to face the fact that the themes that I now saw differently, were not only erroneous, but they were actually toxic, and it was irresponsible to ignore.

I found myself in painful discussions with members of my former church, over their neglect of the mention of repentance in their gospel presentation. They would rather a "false convert" to attend church, in hope that they would eventually fifue it out, than to have the courage to present the truth.

Ravenhill referred this kind of thing as "spiritual abortion", which is certianly a serious allegation. Those who preach this kind of "gospel" are, no doubt, offended at such a claim, but the fact is, this is a highly serous theme, and we ignore it at our peril.

Now, granted there are many who will give an altar call, after preaching repentance, and will imply that the "hopeful convert" is "saved", after their response. It is not this kind of person that I am referring to here, even though this falls short of the mark. The point of my claims, above are directed at those who "lower the bar", in order to "broaden" the way of salvation, rather than pointing to the "straight and narrow way".

Now, I mention the above, as an example, because it is a theme that most of us agree with, and can acknowledge the existence of people who consider it irrelevant. They would say to us, "Hey, you preach the gospel your way, and we preach it ours. Does it really matter?" to which we must reply, "Well, yes it does, actually."

Brother, I am merely saying that the fruit of pretrib theology, is toxic. When I mentioned "false apostles, prophets, teachers, shepherds, etc", I was referring to the likes of Copeland, Hagin, Hagee, LaHaye, VanImpe, etc, who are "false prophets" who also happen to incorporate "Pretrib theology". I'm not referring to people like Chuck Missler, who are faithfull servants, even though they incorporate this into their eschatological viewpoint.

Pretribulationalism fell apart very quickly after I began to weigh it in Scripture, but I continued to allow myself the convenience of believing that it could still be a possibility. A kind of a compormise, that allowed me to not be rejected by those who embraced this error. The problem is, as time went on, it became more and more evident that pretribulationalism could not be simply swept under the rug, unimportant.

Perhaps my comments are "brutal", as you put it, and I make no apologies for that. This is a serious theme. It's not about being afraid, but prepared. To quote Art Katz, "When you bite the bullet of judgement, when you have made peace with a God who judges, something comes into the inner man, that was not there before, that insulates you from a susceptibility for deception that would otherwise make you victim." If we are unprepared, we will be more likle to be afraid, when it happens.

C
CJaKfOrEsT


ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Hi CJaKfOrEsT,
I actually tried to make such a distinction within the context of my posts on this matter. Most of the people that I know refer to the ENTIRE [u]period[/u] as “the great tribulation.” While the Satan-inspired persecutions, trials and tribulations from mankind will certainly increase during that period, this isn’t what will make that time so terrible. We aren’t even supposed to fear the evil one…or what he (or his people) can do to us. We are to fear only the One who will judge the quick and the dead.

Don't you think it is interesting that Jesus exhortation to be afraid of the "One who after destroying the body, can send a soul to hell", was given in the context of standing before persecutors? What I am putting forward, as does Kelly, in the article I presented, is the the "wrath of God" is the penalty of the final Judgement, where the the great tribulation is His final chastening of his creation, evidenced by its restraint.

All of the terror that the Antichrist will inflict upon the world during that time PALES in comparison to the great and terrible judgments that God will pour out upon the earth. It is a result of His judgments that will cause men to pray for the mountains to fall upon them and cover them from the wrath of the Lamb (Revelation 6:16-17).

So in other words, these events will cause some to realise the seriousness of God's wrath [b]yet to be out poured[/b] (from their persective), as typified by this [b]preliminary judgement[/b], that still pales in comparison with His ultimate one. Consider what will be worse, the great tribulation, of hell.

To clarify: I didn’t say that a great “rapture” will CERTAINLY take place (better words: collecting, gathering, taking, etc…). After several years of study, I do think that this is a very real possibility.

Yes, there will be a "rapture". We will "meet Him in the clouds" as He descends, at the event of his second coming. Those of us who don't sleep, will be changed, those who do will resurrect. We will be like unto the angels, and will reign with Him during the millennium.

I agree with Katz, when he says that we will fill the role that was intended for the angels that became the "principalities and powers of the air", before they aligned themselves with Satan.


Please do not misunderstand this as being entirely convinced (that is, placing my faith in [the certainty of] an [i]event[/i]). I am entirely prepared to face any persecution during my pilgrimage through the wilderness of this world. However, I am also somewhat persuaded that we are not appointed to suffer through the wrath of God.

Yes, I can see that. I have already addressed the "wrath of God" above, so i won't do it again. I singled out your post, because you have repeatedly referred to the "tribulational period" as the "wrath of God" that we will be kept from, which is a common misconception. You also demonstrate the kind of "fence sitting" that I addressed in my last post. Again, please don't think that I am implying that you are someone who is "evil" or anything, like I said earlier, you have certainly earned my respect over the years.

It is only that you have summarised the kind of eschatological position that I have come to oppose, of late. I have long opposed pretrib, but of late, the fence sitting has become more important, due to its subtlety.

I still love you, though. :-)

L
Lysa

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Our Lord promised to keep the faithful FROM (as opposed to DURING or IN) the “hour of trial” that will come upon “the whole earth” (Revelation 3:10).

Let's look closer at Revelation 3 where He is speaking to the angel in Philadelphia:

[i]Rev 3.7 ¶ "To the angel of the assembly in Philadelphia write: "He who is holy, he who is true, he who has the key of David, he who opens and no one can shut, and who shuts and no one opens, says these things:
8 "I know your works (behold, I have set before you an open door, which no one can shut), that you have a little power, and kept my word, and didn’t deny my name.
9 Behold, I give of the synagogue of Satan, of those who say they are Jews, and they are not, but lie. Behold, I will make them to come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.
10 Because you kept my command to endure, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, which is to come on the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
11 I am coming quickly! Hold firmly that which you have, so that no one takes your crown.
12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will go out from there no more. I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God, and my own new name.
13 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies.[/i]

I feel you took one scripture out of context of the entire philadelphia message. We know that this must balance.

In verse 11, we are told to hold firmly that which we have so that no one takes our crown and in verse 12 He says "He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God..."

My question is if we are kept FROM the hour of temptation, who will take our crown in verse 11?

And if we are kept FROM the hour of temptation what will we have to overcome in verse 12?

I'm not saying we will go through God's wrath. Please don't apply what you've heard other people say before this discussion to us! I have do not believe that I have ever said that the great tribulation and God's Wrath are the same thing. I don't know!

PS: I really enjoyed murrcolr's well written explanation of the Parable of the Weeds. Have you considered that?

God bless,

L
Lysa

murrcolr,

Thank you for thorough explanation of the parable of the weeds. I had never thought of it like that. I have some studying to do!

CJaKfOrEsT,

Thank you too, you have also thoroughly and rationally explained your position.

Thank you both, I have enjoyed reading your posts and it has further rooted my belief!

God bless,

L
Lysa

*** double post.***
I'm sorry, my page went blank, I didn't think the original posted.

R
rreighe

from what i understand is when he says "this generatin" he isn't meaning the generation of that particlar day. "this" he was (from what i understand) meaning the generation of the time of when it was going to happen. if it is Our generation, then let it be so. if it is our parents or our kids, let it be so. it should not sway your faith either way. right now i am very nutral as i seek his truth. the same is with the pre-mid-post tribulation thing...

EDIT: sentence structure from some of what i wrote below;

i ask you to read this with a nutral heart and mind.

untill you seek HIS truth you may very likey get confused God is not the author of confusion, he does not contradict HIMSELF. human mistakes and the barriers between languages with translation is part of the problem. on top of people being misled in some way are in danger of being decived they may copy a word wrong or misspell something while translating, leading us to read a word that would be better replaced with a differnt word. but that isn't the whole problem, the devil will pour out lies against Gods word. i will say this to you like i say to everyone else, seek God's guidence, go to your room and pray privatly in GOD's presense. allow him to show you what is the truth.

please everyone that post from here on out, please don't JUST tell us what you belive. base it on something, and not just a verse, show us and explination of the verse, an explination of something behind it and how you came to belive whatever you belive about it. examine your thoughts and pray for God to lead you to have right thoughts. be respectfull, and base it with scripture in an informative way. and keep in mind that others may NOT have done something like that. and pray that God will give you this understanding of what is right and wrong when you read it.

S
sermonindex

please everyone that post from here on out, please don't just tell us what you believe, base it on something, and not just a verse, show us and explanation of the verse, an explanation of something behind it and how you came to believe it.
I agree with you, but what your asking is an exhaustive work in writing. These are just forums, bits and pieces of information is being shared, if I wanted to read a book I would buy a book.

Now, I placed in previous post verses of scripture that dealt with the timing of the so called "Great Tribulation", I only needed to point out the verses that I used, I needed not to type all the verses surely all of us have a bible to read from to get the gist of what the poster is writing.

I have given you ample proof that the "this" generation was referring to the generation in which Jesus was referring to. Yes, I have prayed, I have sought the LORD on this subject and this is the conclusion that the Spirit of God has caused me to arrive at. This subject is the last thing that I'd rather be concerned with. Bible prophecy is not my forte, rather the study of righteousness, justification, and faith are more meaningful subjects. However for some strange reason Jesus Christ wants to show us that certain things have been fulfilled.

There are many truths. We could all say that there is only one truth and we would all say Amen to that. However, if you sit each of us down and talk about what we believe, everyone has a different take on how they perceive truth. So, in reality there are many truths. Since we know that there is only ONE truth, we have to come to the conclusion that we have many ideas of that truth.

Have you ever heard someone say, "I did a study on that subject and my findings were such and such", and they say it with such tenacity that because they studied it that makes it true, and you can't show them anything more than what they have studied.

Let me give you an example. Many people believe that the book of revelation is still yet to be unfolded. But I say to you, the words, the [b]"Time Is At Hand"[/b] in Matthew 26:18 And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, [b]Time Is At Hand[/b]; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.

When Jesus said that the "time is at hand" did He have the passover with His disciples then and there or was it a few hundred years from that time?

Is the [b]"Time Is At Hand"[/b] the same in Revelation 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the [b]time is at hand[/b].

Now Daniel was told to seal up the vision and prophecy because it was for many days. But John was told not to seal it up because the fulfilment of the prophecies were starting to unravel.

When you do up your will, it's sealed unto the day you die and then it's executed by the executer. Once the will is read, it's carried out. There is no waiting time unless specified by the one who wrote the will.

Good Night

R
rbanks

Dear Colin Robert,

I don’t know how much time I will have but I need to reply to your post. With respect to you sir, and Aaron Ireland, whom I will have to reply to later, I know you two are very knowledgeable in the word but I would like for you to re look at what you posted. I know we want to interpret the scriptures as accurately as we can.



murrcolr wrote:


The Parable of the Weeds Explained

Matthew 13 v 36-43 Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field." He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. "As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

So what do we learn from these scriptures.

1.Harvest is at the end of the age
2.The harvesters are angels
3.They will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.
4.They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
5.Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father.

So lets look in revelation to see if we can find the harvest.

Rev 14v14-19 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

The harvest and the weeds are gathered first.


Now let's look at what the word of God actually says in context.

Re 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
Re 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
Re 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
Re 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
Re 14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

These are the overcomers, they are the firstfruits, they are the redeemed, and have already been raptured before the throne of God singing the song of Moses and the Lamb.


Now lets look at:

In Re 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Re 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
Re 14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

This says that the harvest of the earth was ripe, so the angel trusted in the sickle and reaped a harvest for the Lord. This shows the Lord gathering a harvest for himself first.

Re 14:17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
Re 14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. Re 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

These next verses show another angel having a sharp sickle to gather the clusters of the vine of the earth casting them into the great winepress of the wrath of God. This shows that the unrighteous were gathered last to be placed in the great winepress of the wrath of God.

I would like to add something though before I go that there is a lot to consider from all that the Lord has said. The scripture does say that his wife hath made herself ready.

Blessings to all!

C
CJaKfOrEsT


rbanks wrote:

I don’t know how much time I will have but I need to reply to your post. With respect to you sir, and Aaron Ireland, whom I will have to reply to later, I know you two are very knowledgeable in the word but I would like for you to re look at what you posted. I know we want to interpret the scriptures as accurately as we can.

...

Now let's look at what the word of God actually says in context.

Re 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
Re 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
Re 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
Re 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
Re 14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

These are the overcomers, they are the firstfruits, they are the redeemed, and have already been raptured before the throne of God singing the song of Moses and the Lamb.


Contextually, what is the basis of your claim? All I see here is a people, probably Israelite (having his Father's name written in their foreheads), who have kept themselves pure. This is reminiscent of the seven thousand who had not bowed their knee to Baal (1 Kings 19:18 - see v12).


In Re 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Re 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
Re 14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

This says that the harvest of the earth was ripe, so the angel trusted in the sickle and reaped a harvest for the Lord. This shows the Lord gathering a harvest for himself first.

Friend, it says nowhere that that which Christ reaped, preceding the second two angels, were gathered for himself, in the sense that he was rapturing the redeemed (quite strange referring to future events in the past tense :-)). However, as murrcolr has pointed out, the parable of the tares shows that all was gathered together, and then were later separated, and that is clearly stated with [b]no room for an alternate speculation[/b].

So we have it, that appears to say that there the Wrath of God is unleashed prior to the events described in ch15, onwards. But then we had the raptured occurring in ch4:2, and again during the "seals", and again during the "bowls". Now surely we wouldn't suggest that there are multiple raptures?

Another possibility is that ch4 is simply John being brought up into heaven (in a vision) to see what is happening there during the events he was about to be shown ("Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter"). Now the others a little more complicated, sort of.

I am borrowing this interpretation from David Pawson, because it makes the most sense, out of all that I have been shown. It is interesting that there is an thread discussing IHOP's eschatology, because Pawson's series on [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=528]Revelation[/url] (hosted here), actually was preached there (although I read it in his book [url=http://www.amazon.com/When-Jesus-Returns-David-Pawson/dp/0340612118]When Jesus Returns[/url]).

Consider if the the chronology of events is seal 1-6, trumpet 1-6, followed by vial 1-6, with each of the seventh ones occurring concurrently. The idea being that each series is being presented as moving toward an ultimate fulfillment, which is described in the seventh. It could even be that the seventh seal described the trumpets and vials in condensed form, and the seventh trumpet condensing the vials. Then we have the seventh bowel condensing the remainder of events, preceding Christ's return.

Either way it gives a viable explanation as to why the description of the rapture appears to precede the wrath of God. The thing is Jesus said that he would tell his angels to gather up the "children of the wicked one" [b]first[/b] (Matthew 13:30,38), adding the words "so shall it be in the end of this world" (v40).

The rapture is not about a "hiding away until the wrath has ended", but about a first firsts glorification, in the midst of judgement. Consider these statements, patched together:


[b]14[/b] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so [u]them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him[/u].
[b]15[/b] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
[b]16[/b] For the [u]Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout[/u], with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the [u]dead in Christ shall rise first[/u]:
[b]17[/b] Then [u]we which are alive and remain shall be caught up [b]together with them[/b] in the clouds, to [b]meet the Lord in the air[/b][/u]: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
[b]1 Thessalonians 4:14-17[/b]
...
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, [u]the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints[/u],
[b]Jude 14[/b]
...
[b]11[/b] And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
[b]12[/b] His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
[b]13[/b] And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
[b]14[/b] And [u]the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean[/u].
[b]15[/b] And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
[b]16[/b] And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
[b]Revelation 19:11-16[/b]
...
[u]To execute judgment upon all[/u], and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
[b]Jude 15[/b]
...
[b]4[/b] And [u]I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them[/u]: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
[b]5[/b] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
[b]Revelation 20:4-5[/b]

So we have a scenario centred around Christ's return. As he is descending, with a shout (the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God). The dead in Christ rise, followed by "we which are alive and remain". We meet him, and the dead in Christ, in the clouds, fulfilling the first half of Enoch's prophecy (Jude 14). Upon their return, they provide "back-up support" to Jesus (which consists of them running into the battle, and witnessing Jesus slay wiping out his enemies, and "treading the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God" (this event is peculiarly described as the "marriage supper of the lamb" - Revelation 19:9).

It would seem that the saints are "raptured" at upon the trumpet sound of an archangel (Thessalonians 4:16), where the wicked are "reaped" at the hand of Christ (Revelation 19:15), fulfilling Matthew 13:30, because the saint are not "gathered into the barn", until after the final judgement (Revelation 20:11,21:2).

Once his victory is complete, Christ establishes his throne on earth, with Satan bound, for a thousand years, and the glorified saints will "execute judgement" along with him (Jude 15, Revelation 20:4). Once this period is over, Satan is released, and the last vestiges of support, that he has on earth, will be vanquished as the Father unleashes "fire from heaven", as forces of evil (no, not the 'axis of evil') encompass "the beloved city" (Revelation 20:9). At the moment that Satan thinks that he has Jesus defeated, he is vanquished suddenly.

Every event that precedes these are intentionally cryptic, but these are clear, even though they are the least described (a thousand years in six verses). Notice that most people who focus on eschatology ignore this. In fact, most people mark eschatological distinctions based on the timing of the "tribulation", while historically it has always been around the timing of the "millennium". Most of us who would be called "post-trib" would rather be called "premillenial". Most "pre-tribbers" are only convinced, to a point, and open to the consideration that they might be wrong. When someone comes along, persuaded of the validity of "premillennialism" (post-trib), they accuse them of focusing on the tribulation, and the fear attached with the theme. Interestingly, "pre-tribulationism", by definition, focuses on preparation for the avoidance of tribulation, where "premillennialism" focuses of preparation for his coming, of which passing through the "time of Jacobs trouble" (ie, the great tribulation), as part of God's provision for Israel, in flight, is a part.

My Apologies for such a long post.

S
sermonindex

The scriptures are plain on this subject. Jesus will come for His bride at the END of what we call the great trubulation.

Having said that, go ahead and believe what you want.

However don't say it's a "false" view. The scriptures as well as the historic testimnoy of the church taught that the church would go through the tribulation.

Another thing to consider. What if a person thinks he or she will not go through it and then turns out they do. Many will fall away because they will not be able to handle the pressure of taking the stand for Jesus. What about all those who will be beheaded? many will fall away because they do not want their head cut off.

Things to consider.

C
crsschk

Hope for one, prepare for the other ...

Maybe too simplistic but I do wonder where [i]I think[/i] ends in the midst of all these things. 'We', many of us, have this tendency to come to final determinations about what lies ahead though things are not crystal clear and frankly it is and has been my observation that the Lord keeps and will continue to keep His prerogatives to Himself. Not merely the 'time of the end' but the whole panoply of events and circumstances surrounding them.

I hope that doesn't thwart or give the wrong impression about the discussion of these things, but just a sideways thought or two towards it all.

Couple of verses that come to mind as part of this sideways perspective -

[i]Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.[/i] Amo 5:18

Not as accusatory, just as something to plug into all of this - Peter, the book of Revelation, other mentions off this same 'warning'.

[i]And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.

Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.[/i] Heb 11:32-48

"Others"

Somehow I cannot but help wonder that this will continue to be similar, but that it is of course sheer speculation as well. What I mean to input here is that this does seem to have a very long track record up to this present day. It is just as much an error to give those of us living in a prosperous (comparatively) nation a false sense of comfort by teaching them that they will be whisked away and therefore have little to nothing to be concerned about as it is to pronounce the flip-side that it is eminent, at the door, that persecution of the likes that 'others' are suffering [i]will[/i] come to them in like manner.

They do not know for certain one way or the other and usually no one does until things become more evident and obvious - It is here where I have the greatest difficulty with so much of our present day seers (Generally termed 'prophets') - Today it's '[i]this season and the Lord is doing ______'[/i] and tomorrow, the opposite. Usually, both are concurrent, their imaginations colliding, if we were to listen to them and take them at their word, God has never been so confused and indecisive in His entire existence.

We have touched on this elsewhere, where there is something of a wishful, hoping almost, underlying 'desire' that persecution might come (with some) and that is a very peculiar and wrong headed notion. Even the Lord stated as much, [i]to flee[/i] it (Mat 10:23).

If anything, the scriptures are replete with warnings - Of being watchful, of being ready, prepared - To take heed, and if I am not mistaken not to be too carried away with things that are of an uncertainty. Of course and again not to the exasperation of those things stated in scripture or even under discussion here, just food for thought.

I would hope, as far as present conditions are concerned, those of us who are on the opposite side of 'others' are eminently thankful for even the smallest of things by way of comparison of those 'others' who are enduring much more severe hardships, persecutions and devastations.

A bit off the track, maybe just some things to stick into the greater grid of all of this.

R
rowdy2

Reply to rbanks
You make some great points and I thank you.

I believe the first 20 chapters of Revelation is the account of the warfare and triumph of the Christ on the cross and the birth of salvation through the grace of God.

Fallen Adam was not the father and Eve was not the mother of the Sons Of God.

Genesis 3
16. Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
17. And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18. Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19. In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
20. And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Chapter 20 and 21 is the ushering in of the gospel, the perfect law of liberty in the Kingdom of God in us who are members of the new church, new Jerusalem, the body of Christ Jesus. While we were yet sinners took our stripes upon Himself died for our sins and we are saved by His life.
Christ Jesus rules over us, we are His Bride and God will never pour out His wrath on or beat us the Bride of Christ.


Eddie

R
rbanks

Dear Brethren,

Thanks for all your input for I truly believe we all want to be ready to meet the Lord.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

This is the rapture that we are told to comfort one another with and is a meeting with the Lord in the air to forever be with the Lord. This is not the second coming of Christ to the earth. This will happen prior to that great and dreadful day of the Lord. This is Christ descending from heaven for his church where the dead in Christ will be resurrected first and those remaining alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

The resurrection found in

[Revelation 20:4 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.]

is not the same resurrection as those who are raptured to meet the Lord in the air. This is an event occurring after Christ returns to earth, destroys the wicked, and binds Satan (Rev. 19-20:3).

Also the parables you mention in Matt 13 do clearly show that their will be a gathering at the end of the tribulation (Rev 19:11-20:4) but this is not the rapture in 1thess 4:16-17, at which time the faithful of Christ’s churches are gathered from among the wicked (Rev 3:10). Christ speaks much about being faithful and that many want be ready when he comes if they are not watching for Him in steadfast loyalty.

M
murrcolr


rbanks wrote:
Dear Brethren,

Thanks for all your input for I truly believe we all want to be ready to meet the Lord.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

This is the rapture that we are told to comfort one another with and is a meeting with the Lord in the air to forever be with the Lord. This is not the second coming of Christ to the earth. This will happen prior to that great and dreadful day of the Lord. This is Christ descending from heaven for his church where the dead in Christ will be resurrected first and those remaining alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

You missed some scripture out lets go and look at it. I have realy enjoyed this thread so far. There are some good points being disscussed. I will listen to David Pawson as I was coming to the train of thought myself that events are running at the same time in Revalation. Chris also brought up the point that we are not destined for Judgement and Mike Balog gave us somethings to think about.

1Th 4 v 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

Paul does not want us to be ignorant concerning them that are Dead in Christ.

1Th 4 v 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again than we should also believe that the dead in Christ should also rise again and he(Jesus) will bring them with him.

1Th 4 v 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

We that are alive shall not prevent them who are dead in Christ from what. We will not prevent the Dead in Christ being raised and coming with him.

1Th 4 v 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

The dead is Christ will rise first.

1Th 4 v 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

We will meet Jesus and the Dead in Christ in the air.

1Th 4 v 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Lets keep going into the next chapter

1Th 5 v 1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

These people know the times and the seasons.

1Th 5 v 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

They know he comes like a theif in the night. But lets think about what he is saying. He says THE DAY OF THE LORD because that is what he does not want them to be ignorant about in the previous scriptures.

1Th 5 v 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Paul gives us a clue here and it's when they say Peace and safety. Sudden destruction comes upon them as a woman travails. In Matthew Jesus tells us of birth pangs. What I make of this is that when the 7 year peace agreement is when the world will go into Hard Labour.

Dan 8v25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Olivet Discourse

Mathhew 24 v 1-8 Summing up these events, Jesus declares in verse 8, "But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs."

All of these "beginning birth pangs" are events that will lead up to the "hard labor" of the Great Tribulation and bring us closer to the Coming of Christ.

Matthew 24 v 29-31 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Know consider this verses

1Th 4 v 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.

1Th 4 v 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The scriptures above describe the same event. Jesus coming for all for us the Dead in Christ and those remaining (The First Resurrection Rev 20 v 4-5)

1The 5 v 4-9 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

We are not the children of darkness but children of the light we are not destined to the darkness of the Wrath of God. We are not appointed to wrath but we are appointed to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.

R
rbanks

Dear Colin,

I appreciate you and am also enjoying this thread with all the brethren.

I would like for you to notice something concerning the two passages that you are saying are the same.

Quote
Matthew 24 v 29-31 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Know consider this verses

1Th 4 v 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.

1Th 4 v 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The scriptures above describe the same event. Jesus coming for all for us the Dead in Christ and those remaining (The First Resurrection Rev 20 v 4-5)
Quote


How can these be the same event when one is talking about after the tribulation of those days...And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This is talking about the sign of the son of man...and also saying that he shall send angels...and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


The event of the rapture in 1thess 4:16-17 is saying "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

It seems clear that this is two stages of His coming. The first event is the rapture where the Lord himself descends to the air. The other event is after the tribulation of those days where the Lord sends his angels to gather together all of his elect.

Maybe we could go further later but I hope you can see the difference in these two events. There is more that I haven't brought out as of yet.

Blessings to all!

S
sermonindex

And then shall appear the SIGN of the Son of man in heaven:
The SIGN that Jesus is now in heaven (heavenly places) speaks of His authority that He is LORD over all. It's not an actual appearing per say, because it doesn't say that He would appear, what would appear is a SIGN of the Son of Man IN heaven.

The appearing is the revelation that Jesus IS in heaven ruling with a Rod of Iron. This all has to do with the generation that Jesus was speaking about nearly 2000 years ago. He spoke to them that the Sun and the Moon and the Stars would all be darkened, in that generation, at the end of the days, at the end of the 70th week.

Now Jesus was born under the law, and God hid His prophetic messages in similitudes and shadows, after Christ death, God would speak to us plainly about His plans purposes and desires.

The Sun, the Moon, and the Stars are Israel, specifically the Jewish nation because the promises to which Christ would come would come thru that linage. They were the light of the world. We know this because of Josephs dreams and the way Jacob interpreted it.

Genesis 37:9 And he dreamt yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamt a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me. 10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamt? Shall I(SUN) and thy mother(MOON) and thy brethren(STARS) indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?
Jesus was speaking about the Old Testament of Law keeping coming to an end and the Temple being destroyed. Because we are the true Temple of the holiest of holies (Holy Spirit).

This is just a primer, the beginnings of the exploits of Jesus Christ as King of Kings and LORD of LORDS over all the kingdoms of the world ruling now in heavenly places.

S
stephent

Question #1 What is the purpose of The Great Tribulation?

Is it to test my faith? Is it a crucible of sorts?

M
murrcolr

Matt 24 v 29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

If you read verse 29 You will see that what happens just before the appearance of the sign of the son of man.

Jesus was speaking about the Old Testament of Law keeping coming to an end and the Temple being destroyed. Because we are the true Temple of the holiest of holies (Holy Spirit).

Please consider the verse below

Luke 16 v 16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

S
sermonindex


thingsabove wrote:
What if a person thinks he or she will not go through it and then turns out they do.

Then when they notice others missing around them, they will learn that they were never saved.


thingsabove wrote:
Many will fall away because they will not be able to handle the pressure of taking the stand for Jesus. What about all those who will be beheaded?

Those will be new Christians during the tribulation. The period is meant to be a final gleaning of mankind looking for the last kernels of wheat. The gleaning process will be similar to a wringing out of a towel. There will be much force applied to the towel in trying to remove the last drops, so much so that the towel must be taken to its breaking point, yet all the drops will come.


thingsabove wrote:
many will fall away because they do not want their head cut off.

True enough, it will definitely divide those who are still pretenders from those who are genuine.


thingsabove wrote:
Things to consider.

Consider this.

So few will be raptured that your theology will appear correct and will be used by the church to apply the mark of the beast to those who remain in it. As the head of a one-world political-religious system, Antichrist will not just utilize the government, but because their allegiance will be to him, pastors will also hand out the mark of the beast to their full churches.


Old Joe

S
savannah

*EDIT*

S
savannah

Quote:

Question #1 What is the purpose of The Great Tribulation?

Is it to test my faith? Is it a crucible of sorts?

stephent,

Question #1 Answer) 1 Cor. 10:11 Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.

God has set them(Jews who rejected Messiah Jesus)forth as an example to instruct the elect of God in Christ. He came in judgement upon Jerusalem as He promised and great was the destruction thereof. That generation saw Jesus' prophecy fulfilled in AD 70.

"Note how this speech is directed against the Jews; for when these things were done by Vespasian, the Apostles could neither observe the Sabbath nor fly, seeing most of them were already dead, and those who survived were living in distant countries. And why they should pray for this He adds a reason, "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor shall be.

I ask the Jews, whence came upon them so grievous wrath from heaven more woeful than all that had come upon them before? Plainly it was because of the desperate crime and the denial of the Cross. But He shews that they deserved still heavier punishment than they received, when He adds, "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved;" that is, If the siege by the Romans should be continued longer, all the Jews would perish; for by "all flesh," He means all the Jewish nation, those within and those without; for the Romans were at war not only with those in Judaea, but with the whole race wherever dispersed.

Then, to show again the greatness of the calamity, He saith, "Pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day. For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world until now, neither shall be." Seest thou that His discourse is addressed to the Jews, and that He is speaking of the ills that should overtake them? For the apostles surely were not to keep the Sabbath day, neither to be there, when Vespasian did those things. For indeed the most part of them were already departed this life. And if any was left, he was dwelling then in other parts of the world.

And let not any man suppose this to have been spoken hyperbolically; but let him study the writings of Josephus, and learn the truth of the sayings. For neither can any one say, that the man being a believer, in order to establish Christ's words, hath exaggerated the tragical history. For indeed He was both a Jew, and a determined Jew, and very zealous, and among them that lived after Christ's coming. I should therefore be glad to inquire of the Jews. Whence came there thus upon them wrath from God intolerable, and more sore than all that had befallen aforetime, not in Judaea only, but in any part of the world? Is it not quite clear, that it was for the deed of the cross, and for this rejection? All would say it, and with all and before all the truth of the facts itself."
(Chrysostom, AD 347)

"It is fitting to add to these accounts the true prediction of our Saviour in which he foretold these very events. His words are as follows: "Woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day; For there shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

"These things took place in this manner in the second year of the reign of Vespasian, in accordance with the prophecies of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, who by divine power saw them beforehand as if they were already present, and wept and mourned according to the statement of the holy evangelists, who give the very words which be uttered, when, as if addressing Jerusalem herself, he said: "If thou hadst known, even thou, in this day, the things which belong unto thy peace! But now they are hid from thine eyes. For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a rampart about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, and shall lay thee and thy children even with the ground."(Eusebius,AD 325)

"The forbearance of God with his covenant people, who had crucified their own Saviour, reached it last its limit. As many as could be saved in the usual way, were rescued. The mass of the people had obstinately set themselves against all improvement. James the Just, the man who was fitted, if any could be, to reconcile the Jews to the Christian religion, had been stoned by his hardened brethren, for whom he daily interceded in the temple; and with him the Christian community in Jerusalem had lost its importance for that city. The hour of the "great tribulation" and fearful judgment drew near. The prophecy of the Lord approached its literal fulfilment: Jerusalem was razed to the ground, the temple burned, and not one stone was left upon another."(Philip Schaff, 1877)

"For there shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." Read the record written by Josephus of the destruction of Jerusalem, and see how truly our Lord’s words were fulfilled. The Jews impiously said, concerning the death of Christ, "His blood be on us, and on our children." Never did any other people invoke such an awlful curse upon themselves, and upon no other nation did such a judgment ever fall. We read of Jews crucified till there was no more wood for making crosses; of thousands of the people slaying one another in their fierce faction fights within the city; of so many of them being sold for slaves that they became a drug in the market, and all but valueless; and of the fearful carnage when the Romans at length entered the doomed capital; and the blood-curdling story exactly bears out the Savior’s statement uttered nearly forty years before the terrible events occurred."
(C.H. Spurgeon, 1888)

"Immediately after the great tribulation which is to accompany the catastrophe, or in those very days, the Son of man is to be seen coming in the clouds with great power and glory. His coming is described according to the Hebrew apocalyptic style; and then it is solemnly affirmed with an emphatic Amen or Verily, "This generation shall not pass away till all these things be accomplished " (Mark xiii, 30; Matt. xxiv, 34; Luke xxi, 32). It would seem from all this that the occasion and scope of this prophecy are clear beyond controversy. It was preceded by many a word of rebuke and warning to the hypocritical scribes and Pharisees, and a terrible woe pronounced against Jerusalem, the murderess of saints and prophets. The time-limit so emphatically asserted accords perfectly with the assurance given on another occasion that some of those who listened to the great Teacher should not die till they had seen the Son of man coming in his kingdom." (Milton Terry, 1898)

"Was not the judgment and sad conflagration of Jerusalem, and destruction of the Jewish church and nation, an assurance of the judgment to come ; when the expressions whereby it is described are such as, you think, meant nothing else but that final judgment? As, ' Christ's coming: coming in clouds, in his glory, in his kingdom : — the day of the Lord; the great and terrible day of the Lord : — the end of the world ; the end of all things : — the sun darkened ; the moon not giving light: — the stars falling from heaven, and the powers of heaven shaken: —the sign of the Son of man appearing in heaven: — heaven departing as a scroll rolled together, and every mountain and hill removed out of its place,' &c. You would think, they meant nothing but the last and universal judgment; whereas their meaning, indeed, is Christ's coming in judgment and vengeance against the Jewish city and nation; but a fore-signification also of the last judgment...

That the destruction of Jerusalem is very frequently expressed in Scripture as if it were the destruction of the whole world, Deuteronomy 32:22; "A fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell" (the discourse there is about the wrath of God consuming that people; see verses 20,21), "and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains." Jeremiah 4:23; "I beheld the earth, and lo, it was without form and void; and the heavens, and they had no light," &c. The discourse there also is concerning the destruction of that nation, Isaiah 65:17; "Behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered," &c. And more passages of this sort among the prophets. According to this sense, Christ speaks in this place; and Peter speaks in his Second Epistle, third chapter; and John, in the sixth of the Revelation; and Paul, 2 Corinthians 5:17,&c...

The destruction of Jerusalem is phrased in Scripture as the destruction of the whole world; and Christ's coming to her in judgment, as his coming to the last judgment. Therefore, those dreadful things, spoken of in Matt. 24:29,30 and 31, are but borrowed expressions, to set forth the terms of that judgment the more.. v.30 - "then shall they see" - not any visible appearance of Christ, or of the cross, in the clouds (as some have imagined); but, whereas Jews would not own Christ before for the Son of Man, or for the Messias, then by the vengeance that he should execute upon them, they and all the world should see an evident sign, and it was so. This, therefore, is called "his coming," and his coming in his kingdom...

for wheresoever the carcase is, &c. I wonder any can understand these words of pious men flying to Christ, when the discourse here is of quite a different thing: they are thus connected to the foregoing: Christ shall be revealed with a sudden vengeance; for when God shall cast off the city and people, grown ripe for destruction, like a carcase thrown out, the Roman soldiers, like eagles, shall straight fly to it with their eagles (ensigns) to tear and devour it. And to this also agrees the answer of Christ, Luke xvii. 37; when, after the same words that are spoken here in this chapter, it was inquired, 'Where, Lord?' he answered, 'Wheresoever the body is: &c.; silently hinting thus much, that Jerusalem, and that wicked nation which he described through the whole chapter, would be the carcase, to which the greedy and devouring eagles would fly to prey upon it...

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man. Then shall the Son of man give a proof of himself, who they would not before acknowledge: a proof, indeed, not in any visible figure, but in vengeance and judgment so visible, that all the tribes of the earth shall be forced to acknowledge him the avenger. The Jews would not know him: now they shall know him, whether they will or no, Isa. xxvi. II. Many times they asked of him a sign: now a sign shall appear, that he is the true Messiah, whom they despised, derided, and crucified, namely, his signal vengeance and fury, such as never any nation felt from the first foundations of the world...

This generation shall not pass, &c. Hence it appears plain enough, that the foregoing verses are not to be understood of the last judgment but, as we said, of the destruction of Jerusalem. There were some among the disciples (particularly John), who lived to see these things come to pass. With Matt. xvi.28, compare John xxi.22. And there were some Rabbins alive at the time when Christ spoke these things, that lived till the city was destroyed, viz. Rabban Simeon, who perished with the city, R. Jochanan Ben Zaccai, who outlived it, R. Zadoch, R. Ishmael, and others." (John Lightfoot(1601-1675))

Luke 21:20-22 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled."

The Great Tribulation is PAST! It happened in the first century.

Therefore,there is no possibility of anyone,elect or otherwise,going through it.

So NO! It is not to test your faith. It was to test the faith of the saints in the first century. They heeded Christ's warning and fled the city. But your faith and mine,if we have such faith,will be tested in numerous other ways along with the faith of all God's elect.

YES! It was a crucible of sorts to the saints of the first century who endured to the end and were saved from all those things which befell their hometown of Jerusalem.

Matthew 23:35-36 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation."

So it seemed good in His sight. Amen.

S
stephent

Looks like I don't have to worry about The Great Tribulation then.

S
sermonindex

Looks like I don't have to worry about The Great Tribulation then.
Yes your right, you needn't worry about the so called "Great Tribulation", it's a past event. However, we will always have tribulation and sometimes it may be great.


S
stephent

I've heard that it is a past event before. I'm unaware of the Doctinal view it goes by

L
Lysa

stephent,

On the first page last post, I posted some links to Zac Poonen's Revelation series and David Pawson's as well. I would hope you would give them a listen.

I do not feel qualified to answer your question and since no one has, I will attempt. (And you could be setting me up for an argument but I won't argue with you!!) Savannah did answer you but from what I read she believes the tribulation has already happened. I don't agree but I [b]cannot[/b] say she is wrong and I will not! Because everyone uses Scripture to prove their point and each's Scripture is valid. As I said in another thread, [i]"the truth of one Scripture cannot and does NOT rule out the truth of another Scripture. And it's in this where the whole counsel of God lies."[/i] What are we to do? To work out our own salvation with fear and trembling and study the Scripture for ourselves.

Do I know for sure that we are all going through the Great Tribulation? No, I do not but my belief and study of the Scriptures prove that whatever the Lord calls the Church to go through, He will keep us if we keep our eyes on Him and not look to the waves.

This thread was just about gone and I do not mean to aggravate those who disagree with me but [b]he did ask[/b] and so I'm going to convey what "I" believe. I'm not stating anyone else is wrong nor am I trying to resurrect it; this is just what I believe.

The major reason I believe we go through the tribulation is to finally prove how deceitful the heart of man truly is because (as found in Rev 20), the first resurrection occurs and after the thousand year reign satan will be loosed and gather his army.

Where does his army come from? There has only been the first resurrection of those who overcame, I believe that Christ rules and reigns with everyone still on the earth and of course, they will submit to Christ's rule. Satan will gather his army from these because even though they submitted, they did not have a change of heart. I believe that these to will be those who played at church, thought they were Christians but they were not planted in fertile ground but shallow ground or rocky ground. And when the great deceiver returns, they will flock to him and form his army.

Here is the clincher... what has helped me understand this and to change my life is that I believe only the overcoming Christians go in the first resurrection. Carnal christians and those who did not overcome and the unbelievers will be resurrected in the 2nd resurrection.

Revelation 20
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

To me, if every person who names the name of Christ gets to go in the 1st resurrection, why do the books and the book of life need to be brought out in the 2nd? If they are all resurrected unto death, then there is no point in bringing out any books.

Hebrew 11.35 [i]Women received their dead raised to life again: [b]and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:[/b][/i]

Aside from believing the church is going through the tribulation, to me that is truly MORE UNIMPORTANT than attaining to the 1st resurrection. Since I believe this way, does that automatically mean I think I'm going to be first? No, it does NOT. I am doing my best to live my life more holy, more prayfully, more lovingly than I ever have before to be an overcomer of the fruits of the flesh. I want to gather the fruit of the Spirit!! [edit: I forgot one of the more important aspects, what gives us the right to rule and reign for a thousand years if we cannot rule and reign over our own bodies or temptations or situations? This is why I feel only overcomers will be in the 1st resurrection.]

These are just the beliefs that I have gathered listening to others and reading the Scripture for myself.

God bless brother,

R
rbanks


Lysa wrote:

Here is the clincher... what has helped me understand this and to change my life is that I believe only the overcoming Christians go in the first resurrection. Carnal christians and those who did not overcome and the unbelievers will be resurrected in the 2nd resurrection.

Revelation 20
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

To me, if every person who names the name of Christ gets to go in the 1st resurrection, why do the books and the book of life need to be brought out in the 2nd? If they are all resurrected unto death, then there is no point in bringing out any books.

Dear Lysa,

This is a very good point and I also agree.

Here are two scriptures that I believe shows that the overcomers will take part in the first resurrection first.

Lu 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Re 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Blessings to you!

L
Lysa

rbanks,

At least we found a point of agreement, brother!! [huge grin]

God bless you!

E
Earendel

Peter said to Him, “You shall never wash my feet!”
Jesus answered him, “If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me.” John 13:8

There is a very good reason why the Church will not only go through the Great Tribulation, but MUST go through it.

I'm not sure if I posted this here on this forum or not...if I have I'm sorry.

...anyway let's consider Rev 12:7-10
[i] And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, [b]for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down[/b].[/i]

Why is it important to the Church, that the accuser of the brethren, who accuses us before our God day and night to be cast out?

Why consider Rev 12:7-10 ?

It's not only important that the accuser of the brethren be cast out of heaven, it is critical for the Bride that this happens.

...because it why the Bride goes through the Great Tribulation in the first place, just to get that point.

...and here's why:

A little background truth to understand first, before I get to what led me to this conclusion.


Please consider 1 Corinthians 10:13
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.


...But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
James 1:14

…but how do desires get corrupted?

It starts early in life before one becomes transformed into the image of Christ, before one is born again by the Spirit of God.


I believe the origin of temptation comes from satan/demons (began at Garden of Eden). I also believe that they can only tempt through the veil of our flesh by warring with the mind.


What is the sinful nature?


These satans/demons absolutely know the will of God, and before a person becomes a believer, they draw people to sin against the will of God starting early in life...through the flesh by warring with the mind of the mind of the individual.


They war against all believers this way - through the veil of the flesh that we are housed in. These demons start their work early in a person's life, before they come to Christ and try and form a person into their own image...and this is their war with and against God.


Therefore it is written to us who are to heirs of salvation:


Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood,(consider Hebrews 12:4) but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Ephesians 6:11-13

We also must be aware/mindful of where and what these demons/satans will tempt us (target our minds), so that you may be able to fight the good fight. They primarily target and draw a person to do these:


Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21 James 4:7


Further it is written, that we are to be on the look out for this:


Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: 1 Peter 5:8

Here is a critical point to make:

If the satan and the fallen ones/demons were bound (cast out of heaven as per Rev 12:7-10) and removed from influencing us in our earthly lives, would there be any temptation to sin? – I would say probably not...NO TEMPTER = NO SIN ...but the mind still has to be renewed after Christ nonetheless.


Further:

I have always believed that satan/demons need to get permission from God first before he can tempt or even harass a saint to sin, or hinder spiritual growth (Consider the story of Job, how that satan had to get permission first, and he did this by accusing Job before God - Job 1:6-12 )...satan does this to us, the heirs of salvation, by accusing us constantly day and night before God.

Critical point:

So what happens when satan can no longer accuse us day and night before God?

...so if he can no longer accuse us day and night before God, and doesn't get permission to tempt us to sin, or any other kind of spiritual hindrance aimed at us, what do you think will happen on the earth when the work of the Holy Spirit in us is unfettered from satanic hinderance in our lives?

It will be the time where the Bride will finally be able to make herself ready, even as it is written about in Revelation 19:7

No wonder it is written when satan is cast out by Michael:

[i]Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down[/i] Rev 12:10

This is surely coming, and is before us, and why I believe that a "Great Revival" is coming to the earth during the "Great Tribulation"

- Ephesians 6:12 will cease to be for the church…because satan has been cast out of heaven by Michael.

No accuser standing before God day and night accusing us before God means no permission to tempt a saint to sin, or to spiritually fight against or harass a saint, which means there will be a global revival on the earth unfettered from any satanic hindrances!!!

[i]"Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come"[/i]

There will be no more wrestling in the spirit with satan and his demons in high places…their day will finally, finally be at an end!

What this means to the Bride of the Lamb, is she will finally be able to get herself ready without any spiritual hindrance, without any temptation to sin, without any accuser standing before God - she will get her wedding garments ready and be holy, and without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, she will have righteous works - even as it is written.

But since satan can no longer tempt and accuse, because he is thrown down, he persecutes the Bride…and her saints and prophets are sent to martyrdom. But the saints at this time will not fear this...because of the strength of the Holy Spirit in them.

…the Lord is with the saints in their hour of trial, and the strength of the Holy Spirit sustains them, and fills them with a supernatural calm and comfort and love from God.


These saints overcome satan and the antichrist by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony, and they love not their lives unto death.

Nazi style holocausts will return globally, as Christians are summarily put to their deaths, even as it is written, just as the Jews were during WWII. It is all that satan has left.

During this time of unprecedented revival of the Bride of the Lamb, and during a time of persecution and murder of Christian saints, and in the midst of all the global chaos that will be going on during the Great Tribulation, there will be a an unprecedented move of the Spirit of God, ...such as has not been seen to this day...So powerful will be this move of the Holy Spirit - for God shall pour out of His Holy Spirit to strengthen and purify the Bride of the Lamb, that she may be holy and pure - without spot or blemish, her gown will be white....many will turn to the Lord during this time in this global revival, and will do so without any accuser accusing them before God day and night!


This is why I believe that the church will go through the refiners fire of the Great Tribulation.


P
psalm1

quote;
"Why is it important to the Church, that the accuser of the brethren, who accuses us before our God day and night to be cast out?

Why consider Rev 12:7-10 ?

It's not only important that the accuser of the brethren be cast out of heaven, it is critical for the Bride that this happens.

...because it why the Bride goes through the Great Tribulation in the first place, just to get that point."


This is compelling to the case for pretrib rapture.
The bride is in heaven for the 7 yr tribulation.

Rev 6;
8And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Note the dead in Christ,killed for their testimony are in heaven during the tribulation period. Not in the graves of 1 thes.
"for the dead in Christ shall rise first...."
The rapture has already taken place.

rev 19;
14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Note the armies originate from heaven.

Satan is thrown down and out of the way during the trib. period ,and the saints ,the bride, are in heaven.

Remember Jesus said;"But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom."

The marriage supper is what Jesus referred to,and it takes place in heaven.

This makes a posttrib rapture impossible,and the theory of the church being on earth during the tribulation period also impossible

C
Christinyou

Just whose Church is it? We are already being disciplined as son's, why would we go through the tribulation so Christ can present to Himself His Bride without spot or wrinkle. How do we learn obedience? Not by the tribulation, but by the things we suffer NOW. We are to glory in our suffering Now, not in a future tribulation that is meant for those that are not in Christ. That is why there will be tribulation saints. There last chance is not to take the mark of the beast in this time of tribulation and are beheaded for there belief that has come because of the great tribulation, that Jesus Christ is real and that He is the Son of God.

How can Christ present to Himself a perfect bride, when they are in the tribulation that has never been upon this earth before. Only a multitude that believe the two witnesses and keep their belief in Jesus Christ will be saved in the tribulation.

Ephesians 5:25-33 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

If a husband puts his wife through tribulation on this earth, he is not obeying God.

So would Christ be not obeying the Word if He puts His Bride through the tribulation.

Jesus is NOW preparing His Body the Church, His Bride for His catching away of His Bride, just as it is said in scripture, the Bride Groom coming as a thief in the night to get His Bride from her fathers home (earthly) and be taken to His Father's House (heavenly).

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Are we with the Lord NOW? Where are we already seated? Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Ephesians 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Ephesians 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

Why would Jesus then put His Church through a great tribulation, all that is necessary is His Shout and we will hear it in this dispensation:

1 Corinthians 9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Ephesians 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

Colossians 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

This is the dispensation; Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

His working in us mightily, not the workings of a tribulation.

In Christ: Phillip

S
sermonindex

I firmly believe He returns WITH His Bride at the end of the Tribulation... just as scripture says. Therefore, the Bride (Church) has to be with Him before He returns.

The Tribulation is God's wrath on sinful man. He does not, nor ever has, included His people in His wrath when He brought it upon those who are not His people. (He has brought judgement on His people, but for different reasons)

It's not a coincidence that scripture says "As it was in the days of Noah...". God spared Noah from His wrath. Noah and his family were the ONLY righteous people on the face of the earth. He hid them safely inside the boat... BEFORE it started to rain, and they were spared from His wrath.

Krispy

S
sermonindex

There are many who believe the Church goes thru the Tribulation, and they kinda look down their noses at pre-Trib brothers as being less spiritual. This kind of garbage needs to stop.

We're not saved by what we believe concerning the rapture/tribulation.

If I'm wrong in my understanding about the Tribulation... big deal.

Krispy

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Good point, Krispy. I lean toward a belief that the Church will not be forced to suffer the wrath of God upon the Earth.

The period of "great tribulation" that will come upon the ENTIRE world will not be so dreadful because of the persecutions and tribulations caused by man (or even Satan). Rather, it is the fact that God Himself will pour out wrath that He has been storing for thousands of years. God has NEVER poured out judgment upon His own people (at least, I can't find a single anecdote in the Scriptures of such a thing). Yet the wrath of God will suddenly be poured out upon the entire Earth...including the destruction of entire portions of it. There are, however, anecdotes in which God saved His people from His wrath. This was true in the wilderness...during the flood...and even just before the destruction of Sodom.

Regardless of what we want to claim, the Scriptures are not entirely clear on this matter (either way). We should be prepared to live for Christ no matter how the end comes.

Currently, I am still leaning toward a belief that the Lord might collect His Bride (and provide a way of escape) before the period of His wrath. However, I am more than prepared to suffer for His Name. And I think also that I have the Spirit of God.

H
hmmhmm


KrispyKrittr wrote:
There are many who believe the Church goes thru the Tribulation, and they kinda look down their noses at pre-Trib brothers as being less spiritual. This kind of garbage needs to stop.

We're not saved by what we believe concerning the rapture/tribulation.

If I'm wrong in my understanding about the Tribulation... big deal.

Krispy


it does not really matter when he comes back, before or after. Its not important, if he comes back before , great, i will meet the Lord. If he dont and the great tribulation starts and i am in the midst and i am persecuted and hungry and fellow believers and friends die and my children are scared and all is chaos. Great i trust the Lord to lead me in good times and bad. Still i will meet him when he comes.


we need not look so much at when he comes, what we need to see to is are we the ones he is coming for?

blessed is he that readeth and does everything written in the book of revelation....


overcome, focus on that, overcoming, no tribulation can be a problem for a child of God who is an overcomer, he has already overcome his own self, his life, if he lives or dies is the same, he has overcome satan and this world and its system.

let us press on to that, and if he does come before the great tribulation, i think many gonna miss him because they are debating so much of when he comes they will not even notice he came....


heb 12:1-2

C
Christinyou

Revelation 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

Where is the Bride and she has already become the Lamb's wife, which takes place at the marriage supper of the Lamb, she must be in His Father's House, for the Bride Groom has already taken her from her old father's house, Satan, and has made Her His Wife.

Romans 7:4-5 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

Satan can no longer accuse us with the Law anymore, we are dead to the Law by the body of Christ and made holy by His Blood, which cleanseth
Us forever.

This is where the wife of the Lamb is;

Revelation 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

We are already there.

Now the 1000 year reign from David's throne on earth, Where Christ makes David's throne His own, which is come down out of heaven from God. The wife of the Lamb ruling and reigning with Her new Husband, Christ.

How is the Husband suppose to treat His wife?

1 Peter 3:7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.

How does Christ treat His wife? The same and not put her through tribulation.

How are we to treat our Husband, Christ?

Colossians 3:18 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.

How does Paul speak by the Holy Spirit in a mystery.

In Christ:

Ephesians 5:25-33 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.


In my Husband: Phillip

H
hmmhmm

I do treat my wife also good, but it does not mean that when she willl give birth to a child she will not have birthpains.

do they hurt? yes more then i can understand. But if you ask her she is scared for them, but willing to go through them because wwhat awaits for the other end. I as a husband even thou i love her is also willing to se my wife suffer, for the glory that awaits on the other side.


and if you ask any woman alive, ask her one minute after she has given birth, was it worth it?


they will all say yes.... now they have their child, and the greater love the greater pain we can endure for whom we love....

S
sermonindex


hmmhmm wrote:
I do treat my wife also good, but it does not mean that when she willl give birth to a child she will not have birthpains.

do they hurt? yes more then i can understand. But if you ask her she is scared for them, but willing to go through them because wwhat awaits for the other end. I as a husband even thou i love her is also willing to se my wife suffer, for the glory that awaits on the other side.


and if you ask any woman alive, ask her one minute after she has given birth, was it worth it?


they will all say yes.... now they have their child, and the greater love the greater pain we can endure for whom we love....

Yes - Amen! For the joy set before us, now.

C
Christinyou

Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

W
White_Stone

You write:

overcome, focus on that, overcoming, no tribulation can be a problem for a child of God who is an overcomer, [b]he has already overcome his own self, his life, if he lives or dies is the same, he has overcome satan and this world and its system.[/b]

The only overcoming done in my heart and soul is accomplished through the work of God's Holy Spirit - by myself I am powerless against sin.

It concerns me that some may take your writing literally and feel through the power of their own self they can overcome anything. I will continue to believe you are meaning to overcome through the Power of the Blood of our Lord Jesus and not by one's own puny perseverance. Everyday I witness my own weakness and stupidity when I mean to do good and accomplish evil when going by my own power. Here is our power and strength, [b]Philippians 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.[/b]

Please accept this in the spirit it was posted,

Kindest regards,
white stone

S
sermonindex

"pre-trib"---"post-trib", as I just read thru this whole thread, 7 pages, and watched it gather steam, I was struck by one fact, and I ask you all this:

the Prophets of old, Old Testament Prophets, at whose hands did they suffer, at whose hands were they sawn in half, thrown down cisterns, etc etc?

The religious institutions of that time. Think about it, search your heart.

The Lord Jesus, at whose hands did He suffer, and was continually vexed and questioned and then ultimately crucified?

the religious institutions of the day, utilizing their occupiers, to do the hammering of the Nails on the Cross.

Who stoned Stephen, who's face bore resemblance to an angel?

the same religious institutions.

Who beat the tar out of those believers at Ephesus? the followers of artemis, which at that city at that time was the religious institution of that city and culture.

Same thing with some of the Apostles, Peter, crucified upside down, Paul murdered, by whom? You can say the romans, but it was their religious institutions that were at work, which were a derivation of the greek god panoply ....until of course the roman institution came along, the "holy roman empire", and dare anybody speak against that religious institution, we ALL know what happened to those who rebelled against that religious institution, which God have mercy, is still alive today with its popery and its superstitions, its mary worship and pedophile demon possessed priests, who cost that religious institution hundreds of millions of dollars to pay off legal claims for the countless children preyed upon by this hell soaked entity.

Then the "protestant reformation" came, which started off as men seeking God, by later devolved into more religious institution, which devolved into more "religious" wars, and persecutions of those who professed to follow Christ.

Even today, look at the muslims, and dont feel superior, because they do the same thing, they have religious institutions, sunni, shia , salafi(wahabbi) and they kill each other! in the name of allah!

and you know what? The Tribulation will come at the hands of religionists, acting in accord of their religious institutions, which on the surface say "Lord, Lord", but will have no qualms about murdering the elect, because in reality, their father is the devil, these are the sons of darkness, and their father the devil has been a murderer and a liar from day one.

and while I believe, fervently in the freedom of discussion, and the validity of opinion, this whole pre-post discussion is really just a non-essential, it's a side track of this Most Holy Faith, which is in its Esssence, is very simple, with a very simple Confession, "I believe God", and if you in your heart, Believe God, love God, with all your heart mind body and soul, and KNOW that Jesus is Lord, come to earth, crucified, raised from the dead, and that thru His Blood we are saved for eternal life to worship and glorify God in the heavenly Jerusalem, as well as the time we have left in these tents of flesh, amen.

It's so simple, a New Convenant, why do you complicate It with fruitless orchards of religious discourse? Why?

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi hmmhmm...

I'm not sure if the analogy works with the time of God's wrath. This world will physically experience [i]labour pains[/i]. The question, in my view, is whether or not God would cause His Bride to suffer His wrath.

This is something that is often lost in the discussion. People who believe that God might provide a "way of escape" from the coming period do NOT believe that we are exempt from the persecutions or tribulations of this world. We know that those things exist. History has demonstrated terrible conditions to believers. Hebrews 11 explains that there were believers who were jeered, flogged, stoned, chained and put to death with the sword. Some were even sawed in half without the Lord stepping in to physically rescue them. Yet all of those persecutions were the result of the tribulations of MEN (inspired by Satan, of course).

The "great tribulation" will be different. Not only will mankind be inspired to pour out greater persecutions and tribulations because Satan "knows his time is short," but the defining moments of the period will be when God pours down the wrath that He has been storing up. God's wrath will be poured out upon the ENTIRE Earth. In an instant, a third of the earth will be destroyed. In another instant, a third of the sea. The people of this world will call out for mountains to hide them from the face of God (Revelation 6:16-17).

The debate is not whether God's people will continue to experience persecution or tribulation (or even heightened versions of such), but whether or not the Bride of Christ will be around to experience the wrath of God. I cannot find an example of a single believer who was ever put to death by God. However, there are several anecdotes of God providing a
way of escape from His wrath.

I have wondered whether or not the coming of the Lord would be like the traditional Jewish wedding spoken of in Matthew 25:1-13. Once the man and his bride are engaged, the groom leaves to prepare a place for his bride. When that place is ready (and the father of the groom approves), the groom comes suddenly and quickly to take his bride to the wedding and wedding feast (at an hour that she doesn't know). The bride doesn't know the day or hour of the wedding; she must simply be prepared to depart with him at all times. Will this be a "type" or a "shadow" of a possible "taking" of the Bride before the Lord pours out His wrath upon the Earth?

I don't pretend to know the certainty of such a thing. However, I currently lean toward the notion that God will either collect His Bride from the Earth for the "marriage supper of the Lamb" before the period of wrath...or God will protect us from that wrath WHILE we stand upon the Earth. The latter seems difficult (but not impossible for God) because the Scriptures talk about entire portions (a third) of the Earth being destroyed in an instance and "every living creature" being destroyed by specific judgments.

In addition, there will certainly be believers who are on the Earth during the period. The question, however, is whether or not these believers were already present...or if they were converted during that time.

Anyway, I hope that this helps with the position that many of us have regarding the period referred to as the "great tribulation." Like many of us have said, we should be prepared either way. We should always be prepared to suffer and endure tribulation and persecution for His Name's sake. Death, after all, has lost its sting for those of us who know our Lord.

H
hmmhmm


White_Stone wrote:
You write:
overcome, focus on that, overcoming, no tribulation can be a problem for a child of God who is an overcomer, [b]he has already overcome his own self, his life, if he lives or dies is the same, he has overcome satan and this world and its system.[/b]

The only overcoming done in my heart and soul is accomplished through the work of God's Holy Spirit - by myself I am powerless against sin.

It concerns me that some may take your writing literally and feel through the power of their own self they can overcome anything. I will continue to believe you are meaning to overcome through the Power of the Blood of our Lord Jesus and not by one's own puny perseverance. Everyday I witness my own weakness and stupidity when I mean to do good and accomplish evil when going by my own power. Here is our power and strength, [b]Philippians 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.[/b]

Please accept this in the spirit it was posted,

Kindest regards,
white stone


I agree sister, i should have made myself more clear how i worded it, sometimes we take for granted everyone believes the fundamental things in the same way we do.

All things flows from HIM, and by HIM i can overcome even as HE overcame.

H
hmmhmm

hello Chris, how are you?

its very important i think what you mention, about Gods wrath, what i do think, or at least for myself, i have to much scriptures that are in conflict with each other, of course scriptures are not in conflict of each other, but i havent come to understand them in the right way yet.

my thinking goes like this, if God as you say and many others belive, does make a way of escaping his wrath, not persecution or suffering, such doctrines is fleshly i think, if the main motivation to se the Lord is to escape suffering i think we missed something, but if this is so must it be before? anyway i post a very known part of scripture and some of my thoughts on it.

Mar 13:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,
Mar 13:4 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?
Mar 13:5 And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:
Mar 13:6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Mar 13:7 And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet.
Mar 13:8 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.

al these things we see, from the deception and all the rest, and its the beginning....

Mar 13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

here he does not say that dont worry, it will be alright i will get you, but rather exhorts them that they will suffer and need to be prepared, take heed.... this is Christ himself saying this.

Mar 13:10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.
Mar 13:11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
Mar 13:12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.
Mar 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

now daniel is just like revelation a book full of strange things and hard to understand and with 100% certanty say it means this or that. But if it is antichrist that is spoken of here, i have anotrher theory also, but if so, this is taking place in the middle of this seven year period, the last week. And still there is nothing saying we will escape, but again Christ exhorts those who witness this to flee. and in the verse before we have the very famous verse he who endures, how can we endure in this period if we are not here in the first place?

Mar 13:15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:
Mar 13:16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.
Mar 13:17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

jesus even says "woe" unto those that are here in those days. and seeing he says they should pray i assume they are belivers,

Mar 13:18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.
Mar 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

here we see what terrible things that will take place, and i dont see one single thing that can tell me believers wont be there in that period.

whaat i do see, is how God will make an ark for not just believers but for their sake in his wrath he shows mercy and love by this following verse.

Mar 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Mar 13:21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:
Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
Mar 13:23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

in this verse notice the word after... after the tribulation...

Mar 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
Mar 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

and then, when? remember the above verse saying after.....


Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

but i can be wrong :-)

also one more thing, if christ comes again before and gets us, and then comes one more time? wouldent that be his third coming?

but anyhow when and how is not the issue, i think being ready is the main thing, its interesting to discuss these minor things, but i need for myself to focus on the main things, seeing i lack very much there.


wish you all the best and much grace in these days. look up saints, he is coming in the clouds any day now....

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Brother HmmHmm...

I don't pretend to know the certainty regarding the exact timing and manner of the Lord's return. I feel that the Scriptures are not completely clear to our veiled eyes. In response to your point, however, I would simply once again point out the difference between persecution and tribulations from man...and the wrath of God.

I don't know of any examples where God poured out His wrath upon His own people. However, we should be prepared for whatever comes our way.

S
Smokey

Folks:
I present the following information for your consideration.

Why is it that everyone seems to jump right to 1 Th.4:17, and start trying to find scripture to support whatever timing you choose to believe about this event called the "rapture" of the Church? If you back up one verse, there is an event promised that proceeds the "rapture" that can absolutely, biblically, be slotted perfectly into Gods timeline of His plan for the Church in the latter days.

This is the verse that everyone looks at to try and set a time for the "rapture" of the Church:

1 Th:4-17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

And completely ignore the verse that comes before it:

1 Th:4-16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise FIRST:

The event mentioned at the end of verse 16, "and the dead in Christ shall rise first:" is called the "first resurrection" in Revelation 20:4-5. The timing of this event, that proceeds the "rapture of the Church", is spoken of by Jesus himself 4 times in John 6, and is mentioned by, of all people, Martha, as Jesus spoke to her in John 11. The timing of the event is also clearly shown in the passage from Revelation 20.

People have been asking the wrong question. The question should be "When is the resurrection? Not when is the "rapture"?

Blessings Greg

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Smokey...

Actually, I don't think that this is the only verse that people use regarding the timing of the Lord's return or the timing of a "rapture" (I prefer the words "gathering" or even "taking"). Interestingly, this same passage about the Lord's return (I Thessalonians chapters 4 and 5) continues with the statement that God has "not appointed us to wrath" (I Thessalonians 5:9).

Yet you make a great point regarding the question that we should be asking. When is the resurrection? Of course, this opens yet another debate that might not be completely clear in Scripture from our vantage point on this side of Eternity. Besides, are we even supposed to think about the timing of such things? In Acts 1:6-8, the disciples were pondering the question about the Lord's timing. The Lord suddenly redirected them to something far more pressing and important -- having the power of God to be a witness.

:-)

H
hmmhmm

you dident answer my question chris....

how are you? :-)

i agree with you , we see in part now and as i said, i dont know so much, i just have much "contradicting" scriptures and havent come to a final conclusion on when the Lord comes, what i do believe to have gotten some little light on and feel is important is sitting by his feet until he comes.

by doing so we can not go wrong, whenever he comes

E
eklegomai

I know that you are probably more studied than I, but one thought or two concerning your post. Did God not say,"I kill and I make alive". So you must agree that if any die they would have does so at the hands of a Just and Right God. Death reigned from Adam on if you believe in orignal sin as a doctrine of the scriptures. So in this if God willing to show mercy on the two third and not on the one third would it not be His choice and Right if He has chosen to do so. I believe we will go throught the trib. Israel went through several of the plagues before being delivered and God's Sustaining Grace held them dear to Himself, but when the last plague which was the deaths of the first born was to be brought forth He said not even a dog shall wag his tongue toward my people in the land of Goshen. If we be the Church of the First Born; Christ then we are also the Body He being the head therefore judgement has already passed upon us through and by His soul sufferings. I believe that because of the affliction of Christ though we may suffer outwardly during this time of tribulation we will not be overcome by the rudiments of this world during the affliction. Just a thought I hpoe I explained what I was trying to to begin with.

With All Love,
Eklegomai

C
Christinyou

If the Body of Christ goes through the tribulation, everyone in that body on earth that are saved will loose their heads of starve, without the mark of the beast.

God is dealing with the Body of Christ His Church different than He dealt with Israel. The rain falls on the good and bad. But those that are saved have an umbrella of Blood, we may go through the rain, but few loose our heads by tribulation, except by Islam and non Christians and become martyrs for Christ, this is not even the Great tribulation saints. Why would Christ who has healed us by His Stripes, and seated us already in the heavenlies in Christ, so put His friends and The Father's sons into being persecuted as to loose our heads, unless all those dead and living, those in Christ, come back with those left alive and those dead in Christ are resurrected unto life and then all have to loose their heads again, this would be the second death, which the Body of Christ will not see. For we are blessed in the first resurrection, and the dead in Christ will rise first, which the Father brings with Christ and those that are left will be caught away up into the air and meet them with the Lord and so shall we ever be with the Lord. These are the words we are to comfort each other with, not, we must all loose our heads for Christ in the great tribulation. I thought that is why He went to the Cross, to save those that the Father has given Him. Are we saved in spirit only, quickened in the Flesh to contain the Spirit of Christ and the Holy Spirit, so we can loose our heads in the tribulation. I don't think so.

In Christ, looking up for His appearing in the clouds that we all that are His go to the Father's House where Christ is preparing a place for us.

Phillip

S
sermonindex

the literal Word of GOD -

[b]Rev 20:4-6 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and

I saw the souls of them that were beheaded

for the witness of Jesus, and for the Word of God,

and which had not worshipped the beast,
neither his image,
neither had received his mark upon their foreheads,
or in their hands;

and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

This is the First resurrection.

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the First resurrection:

on such the second death hath no power,
but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. [/b]

C
Christinyou


That Which precedes Rev 20:4-6?

Gaebelein's Annoted Bible
Revelation 19:1


CHAPTERS 19-20:6

The Manifestation of the King and the Millennium

1. Heavenly hallelujahs and the marriage of the Lamb (19:1-6)
2. Heaven opened and His visible manifestation (19:11-16)
3. The battle of Armageddon (19:17-21)
4. The binding of Satan (20:1-3)
5. The thousand-year reign (20:4-6)
Verses 19:1-10. Once more we find the significant phrase "after these things" (chapter 4:1; 7:1; 18:1). "After these things"--the things which are described in chapters 17 and 18, the fall of Babylon and the complete destruction of the whore and the system over which she presided and domineered, after these things, voices in heaven are heard again. We were first introduced to the heavens in this book in the fourth chapter.

In chapter 18:20 we heard the words addressed to heaven, "Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets, for God hath avenged you on her." And now we see heaven rejoicing. "I heard as it were a great voice of a great multitude in heaven saying, "Hallelujah." Hallelujah means "Praise ye Jehovah." This Hebrew word is not found elsewhere in the New Testament. Four times this word of praise is found in the beginning of this chapter; the Hallelujah times for heaven and earth are imminent. The book of Psalms closes with many hallelujahs; the blessed time which the Psalms so often anticipate, when the earth is judged in righteousness and the glory of the Lord is manifested, is now at hand. The praise here is on account of the righteousness of God exhibited in the judgment of the great whore "which did corrupt the earth with her fornication" and because the blood of God's servants shed by her is now avenged. The great multitude whose Hallelujah is heard first must be the company of martyrs who died during the tribulation. The souls under the altar and their brethren which were slain later utter this praise now. They are seen as a distinct company from the twenty-four elders. A second hallelujah is uttered by them, while the smoke of the destroyed city goes up forever and ever.

The whole redeemed company, Old and New Testament saints, add their amen and hallelujah to the outburst of praise on account of the execution of the righteous judgment. And they worship God, for it is of the righteousness which accomplished the destruction of the great whore. In the midst of this wonderful and impressive worship-scene the throne begins to be heard. A voice from the throne said: "Give Praise unto God all ye His servants and ye that fear Him both small and great." And the command is at once obeyed. John hears the fourth hallelujah and it is the greatest, the most magnificent. It is the great hallelujah-chorus of heaven. Like the voice of many roaring waters, like the voice of mighty thunderings, a great multitude saith, "Hallelujah for the Lord our God Omnipotent reigneth."

Who is this great multitude? In the first verse we heard the Hallelujah of the martyred companies. The twenty-four elders and four living creatures did not join in this first hallelujah. Their hallelujah followed. And now the great outburst of a great multitude. This multitude includes all the redeemed in glory. And they rejoice and give glory for an additional reason which is made known for the first time in this book. The marriage of the Lamb is about to be consummated. "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honor to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb is come and His wife has made herself ready." The harlot, which claimed to be the bride, being judged, the true bride of Christ is seen in glory. And it is the marriage of the Lamb. His joy is now filled full for He receives her, who is bone of His bone and flesh of His flesh. The second Man, the last Adam, is joined to her who is to rule and reign with Him.

But who is the bride about to become the Lamb's wife? Some teach that it is Israel to be united with the Lord in the closest bonds. But these expositors forget that the scene is a heavenly one. This marriage does not take place on earth where the faithful remnant looks up, expecting Him to appear for their deliverance, but this marriage is in glory. It is true such relationship is declared to be Israel's in the Old Testament. She was married to Jehovah in a legal covenant and on account of her faithless condition, because Jerusalem played the harlot (Eze 16:35), she was put away. For a time Israel was the wife of Jehovah (Isa 54:1) and then on account of her wickedness became divorced. She will be taken back in the day of her national repentance when the Lord comes. But as one who had been divorced she cannot be a bride again. The bride of Christ to become the Lamb's wife is the Church of the New Testament.

All who accepted Christ as Saviour and Lord since the day of Pentecost constitute the bride of Christ. The Church began on Pentecost and her completion will be the translation to glory (1Th 4:17). She is both the body of Christ and the bride of Christ, as Eve was of the body of Adam and also his bride. The Church is the nearest and the most beloved object of His loving heart.

The book of the revelations; Verses 4-6. Thrones are seen next by the Seer. "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them and judgment was given unto them." Daniel also saw thrones in connection with the judgment of the beast, but nothing is said of those occupying the thrones in Daniel's vision. Here we have the complete revelation, and several times the blessed statement is made that Christ and His saints shall reign with Him for a thousand years. The new age in which all things are put in subjection under His feet, the personal reign of Christ, in which all His redeemed people have a share, begins. It will last a thousand years. Six times we read of the thousand years in this chapter. Because this coming age will last a thousand years it has been called by the Latin word "millennium." Not a few have made the astonishing declaration that such a period of time during which Christ and His saints reign over the earth has but little foundation in the Scripture.

It is quite true that the only place in which the duration of such an age is given is this great final book of Revelation. And that should be sufficient for any Christian to believe in such an age of a thousand years. However, this age of unspeakable blessing and glory for this earth is revealed throughout the entire Bible. The Old Testament contains hundreds of unfulfilled promises of blessing for Israel, the nations of the earth and even for all creation, which have never seen even a partial fulfillment. Isaiah is full of such promises. In the New Testament there are also passages which clearly teach and point to such an age of glory for this earth. Read Mt 19:28; Ac 3:19-21; Ro 8:19-23; Eph 1:10; Col 1:20; Php 2:9-11. What awfully disheartening pessimism it would be if we had to believe that the terrible conditions prevailing on the earth now, conditions which have steadily become worse, were to continue and that man's work is to remedy them and produce something better. This earth has a bright and glorious future. Nations will some day no longer turn, as they do now, their plowshares into swords, but change their swords into plowshares. Righteousness and peace will surely kiss each other and creation's curse and travail pains will end. Mercy and truth meet together.

But when? Never as long as the great unfoldings of this book, which we have briefly followed, have not come to pass. There can be no better day for the earth as long as He is absent and not on the throne which belongs to Him. But when He comes, when He has appeared in glory and in majesty, then the earth will find her rest and groaning creation will be delivered. As we do not write on the great blessings and glories to come when He comes, we must refrain from following these things. Here in our book the revelation is given that Christ shall reign for a thousand years and His Saints shall reign with Him.

Let us notice briefly the different classes mentioned who are associated with Christ in His personal reign. The entire company of the redeemed, as we saw them under the symbolical figure of the twenty-four elders, occupying thrones and wearing crowns, are undoubtedly meant by the first statement, "they sat upon them and judgment was given unto them." They judge with Him. This is the raptured company whom we saw first in glory in chapters 4 and 5; and we, dear fellow-believer, belong to this company. Then follow the martyrs, whom we saw under the fifth seal (6:9-11): "And I saw the souls of them that had been beheaded on account of the testimony of Jesus and for the Word of God." Then we have a third company. "And I saw those who had not worshiped the beast, nor his image, and had not received his mark on their forehead, or in their hands." These are the other martyrs who were slain during the great tribulation, when the beast set up the image and demanded its worship (13). They lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. The first resurrection is passed and all who have part in it reign with Christ, are priests of God and of Christ and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

Oh! wonderful grace which has saved us! Grace which has saved us in Christ and through His ever precious blood delivered us from eternal perdition! Grace which saved us from Satan's power, from sin and all its curse! Grace which has lifted into such heights of glory and has made us the sons of God and the joint-heirs of the Lord Jesus Christ! And how little after all we enter into all these things, which ought to be our daily joy and delight. How little we know of the power of the coming glory of being with Christ and reigning with Him!

In Christ: Phillip

E
eklegomai

Will the Holy Spirit still be upon the earth during the Great Tribulation as He is now then?

With All Love,
Eklegomai

C
Christinyou

How is the Holy Spirit now on this earth?

Before The Father's answered prayer of the Son;

With Israel, but not in them.

Ec 4:1 So I returned, and considered all the oppressions that are done under the sun: and behold the tears of such as were oppressed, and they had no comforter; and on the side of their oppressors there was power; but they had no comforter.
La 1:9 Her filthiness is in her skirts; she remembereth not her last end; therefore she came down wonderfully: she had no comforter. O LORD, behold my affliction: for the enemy hath magnified himself.
La 1:16 For these things I weep; mine eye, mine eye runneth down with water, because the comforter that should relieve my soul is far from me: my children are desolate, because the enemy prevailed.

Now in the Body of Christ, not just with us but in us.

Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Joh 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

If the Body of Christ is with the Father and the Holy Spirit is in the Body of Christ, in individual members and with comforting words;

1 Thessalonians 4:17-18 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Where is the Holy Spirit now and where will He be then?

Still in the believer. If any are saved in the tribulation, the Holy Spirit must be the convictor of sin and the Sealing of Christ in the tribulation saints.

The Holy Spirit must release the restraints over the Devil and his army of evil, that they might appear and rule from the earthly temple, standing in the temple and declaring he is God.

But the Holy Spirit must be here for the new believers in the Tribulation.

Then Christ will come with a rod of Iron and rule from the New Jerusalem on David's Throne on this earth from a heavenly temple, which Christ makes His own.

So, Is The Holy Spirit the same now as He will be then? In part yes and in part no. It is the timing which God knows only. The Holy Spirit will certainly do His JOB as God the Holy Spirit as the Father will and the Son.

What do you think?

In Christ: Phillip

E
eklegomai

I really appreciate the answer and ask one more question. When Christ returns for His bride, body, and church who is there left to get afterward? I know most would say Israel, but is the church not spiritual Israel. He that is a jew is not one which is outwardly but one that is inwardly. Also not all Israel {natural} is Israel{spiritual}neither are the natural the seed of promise. So seeing that the spirit will be dealing with everyone the same which with Christ there is neither jew nor greek but one flock who is he returning back for after the rapture? Most around here in Tennessee teach that the natural Israel will be going through the tribulation and the church will ascend in the rapture and then the Holy Spirit will be withdrawn and there will be people saved during this time. I was taught this growing up but now I see no evidence in the scripture to support this or the 1,00 year reign. After all Christ does and always will reign in the heart of His people. To say that there is a distinction between the church and the jewish nation is to alienate Paul himself who said has God put away His people that He foreknew{intimately} God forbid am I not a jew God has not forgotten meor any of those in which he foreknew. Israel has not received that which he sought for , but the election hath received it and the rest were blinded. I don't know a lot about escatology and do not claim to I do however have some questions about it that I know God in His own time will guide me in all truth. I do not worry about it too much I am just glad that someday He will allow me to sit at His feet and worship Him for eternity whether I do go by the rapture, through the affliction, or by the grave He reigns....

With all Love,
Eklegomai

C
Christinyou

Quote:

"""I really appreciate the answer and ask one more question. When Christ returns for His bride, body, and church who is there left to get after"""

All those who did not believe in the fullness of the Gentiles.

We must see that all Israel's earthly promises will not be fulfilled in Heavenly Places where the Body of Christ is already seated in spirit.
Israel's promises are earthly, the body of Christ promises are heavenly. That is the difference in salvation by earthly means, "The Law", and Grace salvation by faith of Jesus Christ after the Cross.

How are we saved now? Ephesians 2:1-16 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

The enmity is the Law, which Paul says kills us.
That is how Christ will rule in the millennium, by a rod of Iron. Israel, the nation will again be the evangelistic nation that she was intended to be, which she did not and could not fulfill.

Those saved in the Millennial Reign of Christ will not be spiritual Israel, but earthly Israel by the Kingship of Jesus Christ and His heaven on earth, not spiritual Israel who reigns with Jesus Christ on His new Jerusalem Throne of David's earthly Throne made Heavenly by God the Father.

Earthly;

Re 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Heavenly;

Re 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

We are already His Bride. All that is left is the marriage supper of the Lamb which takes place in the Heavenly Realm not the earthly realm of Israel with their King Jesus on His throne.

In Christ: Phillip

L
Lysa

White_Stone wrote 2009/04/07 7:20:51 ~
You write:
overcome, focus on that, overcoming, no tribulation can be a problem for a child of God who is an overcomer, [b]he has already overcome his own self, his life, if he lives or dies is the same, he has overcome satan and this world and its system.[/b]

The only overcoming done in my heart and soul is accomplished through the work of God's Holy Spirit - by myself I am powerless against sin.

It concerns me that some may take your writing literally and feel through the power of their own self they can overcome anything. I will continue to believe you are meaning to overcome through the Power of the Blood of our Lord Jesus and not by one's own puny perseverance. Everyday I witness my own weakness and stupidity when I mean to do good and accomplish evil when going by my own power. Here is our power and strength, [b]Philippians 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.[/b]

Please accept this in the spirit it was posted,

Kindest regards,
white stone


White stone,
I agree with hmmmhmmm but when I read your post I said to the Lord, "Everything she has written is the Bible. I cannot argue with your word. Help me to understand."

And He did! I was listening to a Zac Poonen sermon and explained it thoroughly and I hope you feel the same but please know that I am not trying to argue with you. Here is the first 13 minutes... (might be in two posts! There's a LOT of typing for 13 minutes~!)

I want to turn to Revelation and chapter 21. Here it is speaking about the new heavens and the new earth and who are going to dwell there. It describes this new Jerusalem as a bride adorned for her husband and how God is going to dwell in the midst of His people. And then it says, after describing all those things where he makes everything new (v5).

For whom is this? Verse 7; "He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son."

It's a very common mistake that Christians make, they take one verse and make a doctrine out of it. That is how lots of the cults have developed. They've got their favorite verse and they build a huge doctrine around that verse and that's about all they see. For them that is a major part of the Bible, 90% of the Bible is that verse.

It's not just the cults, if you go to the average believer; and someone goes to him and he says, "Hey, I'm an unbeliever..." You can try this out if you don't believe me. If go to a good pastor, believer and tell 'em, "I'm an unbeliever. How can I be a son of God?" I don't think anybody would point you to this verse, "He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. " ((Rev 21:7) Do you think anybody will point this verse out?

No, they'll point some other verse like: "As many as received Him, to them He gave authority to become children of God" (John 1:12). It's true but everything in that verse depends on what it means to "receive" Him. There are a lot of expressions used in Christendom which are not found in the Bible. If you understand it correctly, it doesn't matter. We don't have to express things in the Bible the same way, provided the meaning is the same.

We know, for example, one of the great emphasis's in the New Testament is on "believe" but we know that belief is not what we understand and when somebody asks you, "Do you believe that?" Is so and so the president of India? Do you believe that? I say, "Yes, I believe so and so is the president of India." Well, that's not the type of belief that the New Testament speaks about. We know that because there is a belief that is an acceptance of a certain fact. And there is a belief which is a committing of one self; like in a marriage where a woman trusts that man and commits herself to him. So that one word believe is so important to understand it correctly because our eternal destiny depends on that.

Or receive; "as many as received Him, to them he gave the privilege to become the sons of God" John 1:12. We tell people who want to be born again, "Ask Jesus to come into your heart." Yea, but you'll never find that in Scripture. In Scripture it's always, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" but because that word believe is so misunderstood and millions of people say they believe on the Jesus Christ and we know they are not born again; so we have to rephrase that so we explain to people what it really means.

I find personally that since Scripture doesn't contridict Scripture, I believe that every place where it says how we can be a son of God must all mean the same thing. It can't be controdictory. I'll just show you a few examples. Here it says, "Only those who overcome are going to be sons and they're only going to inherit all these things." All the things mentioned about.

But most believers have the idea, "Whether I overcome or not, I'm going to inherit all these things." Well, if that's the case then God must be a liar, God's word anyway. Either God's word is a lie OR this is not God's word. One of the two, if this is God's word, then it's a lie or this is not God's word. Otherwise, this is God's word and it's true, then it's only those who overcome who will inherit all these things.

And in contrast, the opposite is mentioned in verse eight, but... here are the opposite of those who overcome; the cowardly, the unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and immoral persons, sorcerers, idolaters, liars, they'll be in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone. (Rev 21.8)

End of post 1...

L
Lysa

Here is post 2...

Let me show you another verse in 1 John 5. See John is the one who speaks a lot about overcoming and it says here in 1 John 5.4, "Whoever is born of God overcomes the world." And this is the victory that's overcome the world - our faith. So everyone who is born of God is an overcomer. If he doesn't overcome, you wonder whether he's had a genuine experience because it says here that "whoever's born of God overcomes the world."

Turn to 2 Cor 6. Here it says in verse 17, "Therefore, come out from their midst" He's talking about those who are in fellowship with idols in verse 16, in darkness verse 14, etc. "Come out from among them," verse 17, "and be separate and touch not what is unclean and I will welcome you. And I will be a father to you, And you shall be sons and daughters to Me," Says the Lord Almighty."

So who is his son and daughter? Those who come out and are separate.
So whom is God a father? There are those who will say, "Those who accept Christ, God is their father." True but it also means, they come out from the midst of people and don't touch what is unclean and God says, 'I'll be a father to you.'

Or take another verse in Matthew's gospel, chapter 5.43-45; how to be a son of God. matthew chapter 5, the end of the sermon of the mount it says, "You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbour and hate your enemy. But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven.' So what about a person who doesn't love his enemy? Doesn't pray for those who persecute him? Does it mean that the Lord meant that, well, even if you don't love your enemy or you don't pray for those who persecute you, you'll still be a son of your Father? These are just examples I wanted to show you how many people have favorite verses when they want to understand something.

If somebody were to come and ask, "How can I be a son or daughter of God?" They won't go to 2 Cor 6, "Come out from among them, and be separate and touch not the unclean thing." Or if somebody says, "How can I be a son or daughter of God?" They won't go to Matthew chap 5 and say you got to love your enemies and bless those who curse you. We got other verses which we go to as I said it all depends on what it means to receive.

So when we recognize that Satan himself quoted a Scripture to Jesus to try and lead Him astray; don't you think it's possible that Satan could quote a Scripture to lead us astray? And he has lead millions of people astray by quoting one Scripture and makes them understand it according to the dictionary meaning. There are millions of people today who think "believe" means "I believe on the Lord Jesus just like I believe that the sun rises in the morning or something like that."

Jesus corrected it by saying, "It is also written...." Don't just quote one verse, see what the other verse says. You put both together and you get the truth. So when we put all the Scriptures together (I just showed you some of them), on how to be a son of God; it means a lot more than just saying, "Lord Jesus, come into my heart."

And that's the reason that you have such a shallow Christianity in the world today. Even in churches that start out so well, after a while it becomes shallow because standards go down and that's because we are not taking all of Scripture. (this section ends about 12 minutes and 55 seconds from the beginning)

______
God bless,

C
Christinyou

So then who is the overcomer? Are we the overcomers because we come out from among those that are not in Christ. Or, is it the Christ in us that overcame at the Cross and being birthed in us by the Father who makes us overcomers by His work on the Cross. True, there are many scriptures that give the reason a Christian is a Christian, for it is by these works that show forth our coming out. But, who is the One that is working in us to make us overcomers as He, Jesus Christ overcame. Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Who's working, who's overcoming, as we labor by His working, this is how John can say, "he who is born from above is an overcomer", by the Christ that the Father has given the believer to.

So how does one become a Christian? By overwhelming evidence and abundance of scripture.

Believe. John 3:16-21 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Joh 13:19 Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.
Joh 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
Joh 14:29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.
Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
Joh 16:30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.
Joh 16:31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?
Joh 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Joh 19:35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.
Joh 20:25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
Joh 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
Ac 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Ac 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
Ac 13:41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.
Ac 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
Ac 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
Ac 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Ac 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Ac 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
Ac 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.
Ac 27:25 Wherefore, sirs, be of good cheer: for I believe God, that it shall be even as it was told me.
Ro 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
Ro 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Ro 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Ro 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and in His Cross that the Father prepared for those that would believe, by The Father giving those whom believe by the Power of God, to Jesus Christ that they might be son's of God.

In Christ: Phillip

C
Christinyou


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Who Then is a Christian?
By Warren Litzman

Defining Christianity is not an easy task these days. It has become so polluted with false doctrine and anti-biblical truth that anybody with anything on their mind religious uses the name. What is most critical about this is the world and even people in Christian churches do not know what Christianity is. To make it very simple, my definition is that Christianity is Christ. Nothing else - nothing else added to it and nothing else needed - just Christ. However, Christians without the knowledge that Christ is their life have become promoters and advertisers of their special brand of Christianity, or their denominational rules or their doctrines.

This means there is hardly to be found anywhere a pure or even near pure Scriptural Christianity. The term “Christian” was formed at Antioch by Paul and Barnabas when they were teaching there (Acts 11:26). There are many that teach the early Pentecostal church was a truly Christian church. But this is not so. The early church was a kingdom church (Joel 2:28, Acts 2:16) that had never heard the full gospel of grace and had never come into Paul’s gospel of Christ in you. It is my conclusion that no one can be Biblical Christians without a revelation of Christ as his life (Gal. 2:20).


1) Christianity is not just about the historical Christ. The historical record in the four gospels tell you all about Him and there are thousands of historical books that tell about Him. It is only when you get into Paul’s Epistles that He - Christ - ever becomes the life of the believer. A Christian is one in whom Christ lives. It is not that Christ gives something to the believer, but rather Christ is the life of the believer and His only life to the Father that birthed him.

2) Christianity is 4th dimensional. It is a mystery (Col. 1:26-27). It is the birthing of a new creation - a person that has never lived before - a person that will never die - because he has eternal life - Christ-life - in him.

3) Christianity demands nothing from an adherent other than to believe on Jesus Christ as his Savior. The denomination, the church doctrines and the religious programs can add nothing to salvation. Therefore, to put it bluntly, Baptist are not Christians. Methodist are not Christians. Pentecostals are not Christians. Catholics are not Christians. But because of the personal work of the Holy Spirit in a believer’s life, some Christians are Baptist, some Christians are Methodist, some Christians are Pentecostal and some Christians are Catholic. When Christianity becomes a tool of some group to promote their doctrine and ignore Paul’s message of grace then they are not Christians.

4) Christianity demands that a believer be willing to give up his old life (Rom. 6:6) and cease to serve sin. This is the message and essence of the cross and Christianity without the cross is life-less and Christ-less (II Cor. 2:2). Christianity is not our works for the Lord but rather His work in us and through us.

Christ-life Fellowship
PO Box 170307 Dallas, TX 75217-0307 USA

litzman@christ-life.org 214-391-0488

Webservant

In Christ: Phillip

H
hmmhmm

dear sister Lysa, thank you for writing what you wrote, do please post a link to the sermon, many would appreciate it i believe to hear in its full length.

L
Lysa

I was trying to finish up to take my mom somewhere and forgot the link... I'm sorry.

It's from a series "Testing and Deception" #10
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=11605&commentView=itemComments]mp3 - Overcomers Will Reign In Christ[/url]

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=11606&commentView=itemComments]video - Overcomers Will Reign In Christ[/url]

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sermonindex

I tried the Video link, but no luck. This is another link, with choice of Video or Audio to the sermon given on February 10, 2006:

[url=http://www.cfcindia.com/web/mainpages/video_message.php?date=06_04&issue=52&title=Overcomers+Will+Reign+In+Christ]Overcomes Will Reign In Christ- Zac Poonen[/url]

Sincerely,

Walter


Lysa wrote:
I was trying to finish up to take my mom somewhere and forgot the link... I'm sorry.

It's from a series "Testing and Deception" #10
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=11605&commentView=itemComments]mp3 - Overcomers Will Reign In Christ[/url]

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=11606&commentView=itemComments]video - Overcomers Will Reign In Christ[/url]

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Christinyou

Who is He that has overcome the world on our behalf? 1 John 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

This is what happens to those that think they can overcome on their own; 2 Peter 2:17-22 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Dogs and Pigs, these are not saved, washed in the Blood of the Lamb, and have Lambship, that is true son's of God by His working, not the working of the dogs and pigs.

In Christ: Phillip

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sermonindex

Excellent message -

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=2788]Prophetic Reality versus Fantasy[/url] by Art Katz

[b]Description:[/b] [i]How do we distinguish between the false and the true prophet as both use Scripture to validate their position? The fate of Israel was at stake in Jeremiah’s time—and so also today. Art shows that the false prophets were themselves deceived about their knowledge of God. Then, as now, nothing has changed.[/i]

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ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi hmmmhmmm...

you dident answer my question chris....

how are you? :-)

It is well, brother! I must have overlooked the question.
i agree with you , we see in part now and as i said, i dont know so much, i just have much "contradicting" scriptures and havent come to a final conclusion on when the Lord comes, what i do believe to have gotten some little light on and feel is important is sitting by his feet until he comes.

by doing so we can not go wrong, whenever he comes

I suppose that I identify with Krispy when he says that there is quite a bit of finger pointing toward those of us who hold to the possibility of the Lord taking His Bride just before He pours His wrath upon this world. It seems like we are looked down upon for such views. In reality, I don't think that the Scriptures are entirely clear on this matter -- at least for those of us on this side of Eternity who still peer through a veil and look through [i]a glass darkly[/i].

The ultimate question is not whether we have a right to share our views, but whether or not we should even proclaim our views as "truth." There is quite a bit of room for discussion in this matter. I sometimes wonder if we are even supposed to concern ourselves so much with the timing of the Lord's return. Even such a "spiritual" thing can serve as a distraction from what truly matters -- to know and fellowship with the Lord as we walk through "the wilderness of this world."

Knowing Him is all that truly matters. To live is Christ...and to die is gain.

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sermonindex

I also believe God’s people will not suffer wrath in Rev.it shows how God’s people are in fact protected from the judgements but they do infact go threw tribulations.. I am also committed to walking in our Lords command to love and love is definitely not rude, I am very zealous about following our Lord in love and this leads me to the next purpose of posting this, love always protects. I believe pre . trib. is teaching escapism and is doing great harm to the body of Christ. Do we really believe that God would require all these new born; baby Christians to walk threw the hardest time in history with out any mature leadership? I believe this view point is a selfish view point and is contradictory to God’s nature which is love and love is never self seeking .I believe a pri .trib. view point is motivated in self preservation which is in direct conflict to the Lord’s command because there is no greater love than to lay ones life down for another. I know I would not have made it in tribulations as a new believer, but 18 years of being saved I am much more mature. I know nothing will shake me because love always perseveres, that’s why love never fails because love never gives up. So after many years of stumbling and getting back up, walking through the fire of tribulation of life and relationship. Growing from faith to faith I can now say I know I will trust God threw any situation. Trust or faith comes from knowing someone for a long time and we build trust or go from faith to faith. God has always asked mature believers to go threw the hard test. I for one am signed up to help lead this multitude of new believers threw the tribulations. Love never fails. No greater love does a man have than he lay down his life for his friends.

God does protect his people threw this time,but they are still there.

Revelation 9:3-4
3And out of the smoke locusts came down upon the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. 4They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those PEOPLE who DID NOT have THE SEAL of God on their foreheads.
The saints are God’s church. If God is going to let the to witnesses go threw the tribulations and they are God’s people ?

Revelation 11:4
4These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.
Dearly loved by the Lord!


"For if the trumpet gives an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?" - 1 Corinthians 14:8

Joshua 1
6 "Be strong and courageous, because you will lead these people to inherit the land I swore to their forefathers to give them. 7 Be strong and very courageous. Be careful to obey all the law my servant Moses gave you; do not turn from it to the right or to the left, that you may be successful wherever you go. 8 Do not let this Book of the Law depart from your mouth; meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do everything written in it. Then you will be prosperous and successful. 9 Have I not commanded you? Be strong and courageous. Do not be terrified; do not be discouraged, for the LORD your God will be with you wherever you go."


John 13:1
[Jesus Washes His Disciples' Feet] it was just before the Passover Feast. Jesus knew that the time had come for him to leave this world and go to the Father. Having loved his own who were in the world, he now showed them the full extent of his love.


Daniel 11:33-35
33 "Those who are wise will instruct many, though for a time they will fall by the sword or be burned or captured or plundered. 34 When they fall, they will receive a little help, and many who are not sincere will join them. 35 Some of the wise will stumble, so that they may be refined, purified and made spotless until the TIME OF THE END, for it will still come at the appointed time.
Christians are made for hard times. All of the apostles when they reached maturity laid their lives down. Not immature Christians but mature Christians. The bible tells us that this glorified God. I know people don’t want to hear this. It takes great faith to believe God for strength to walk threw the tribulation. I would rather us count the cost now than be caught off guard later.\t

17 The third time he said to him, "Simon son of John, do you love me?"
Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, "Do you love me?" He said, "Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you."
Jesus said, "Feed my sheep. 18 I tell you the truth, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go." 19Jesus said this to indicate the kind of DEATH by which Peter would GLORIFY God. Then he said to him, "FOLLOW ME!"
Revelation 12:11
11They overcame him
by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony;
they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death.

The church that shrinks back from death will not overcome.

Revelation 21:7-8 (New International Version)
HE WHO OVER COMES will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8BUT THE COWARDLY AND THE UNBELEAVING, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
My intention is not to be rude but I along with a lot of other pastors an over whelming since that the church is not ready and judgment must come according to the word.


Ezekiel :14
1 Some of the elders of Israel came to me and sat down in front of me. 2 Then the word of the LORD came to me: 3 "Son of man, these men have set up idols in their hearts and put wicked stumbling blocks before their faces. Should I let them inquire of me at all? 4 Therefore speak to them and tell them, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: When any Israelite sets up idols in his heart and puts a wicked stumbling block before his face and then goes to a prophet, I the LORD will answer him myself in keeping with his great idolatry. 5 I will do this to recapture the hearts of the people of Israel, who have all deserted me for their idols.'
6 "Therefore say to the house of Israel, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Repent! Turn from your idols and renounce all your detestable practices!
7 " 'When any Israelite or any alien living in Israel separates himself from me and sets up idols in his heart and puts a wicked stumbling block before his face and then goes to a prophet to inquire of me, I the LORD will answer him myself. 8 I will set my face against that man and make him an example and a byword. I will cut him off from my people. Then you will know that I am the LORD.
9 " 'And if the prophet is enticed to utter a prophecy, I the LORD have enticed that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand against him and destroy him from among my people Israel. 10 They will bear their guilt—the prophet will be as guilty as the one who consults him. 11 Then the people of Israel will no longer stray from me, nor will they defile themselves anymore with all their sins. They will be my people, and I will be their God, declares the Sovereign LORD.' "
Judgment Inescapable
12 The word of the LORD came to me: 13 "Son of man, if a country sins against me by being unfaithful and I stretch out my hand against it to cut off its food supply and send famine upon it and kill its men and their animals, 14 even if these three men—Noah, Daniel [a] and Job—were in it, they could save only themselves by their righteousness, declares the Sovereign LORD.
15 "Or if I send wild beasts through that country and they leave it childless and it becomes desolate so that no one can pass through it because of the beasts, 16 as surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, even if these three men were in it, they could not save their own sons or daughters. They alone would be saved, but the land would be desolate.
17 "Or if I bring a sword against that country and say, 'Let the sword pass throughout the land,' and I kill its men and their animals, 18 as surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, even if these three men were in it, they could not save their own sons or daughters. They alone would be saved.
19 "Or if I send a plague into that land and pour out my wrath upon it through bloodshed, killing its men and their animals, 20 as surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, even if Noah, Daniel and Job were in it, they could save neither son nor daughter. They would save only themselves by their righteousness.
21 "For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: How much worse will it be when I send against Jerusalem my four dreadful judgments—sword and famine and wild beasts and plague—to kill its men and their animals! 22 Yet there will be some survivors—sons and daughters who will be brought out of it. They will come to you, and when you see their conduct and their actions, you will be consoled regarding the disaster I have brought upon Jerusalem—every disaster I have brought upon it. 23 You will be consoled when you see their conduct and their actions, for you will know that I have done nothing in it without CAUSE, declares the Sovereign LORD."

PEOPLE GET READY IN LOVE HIS SERVENT!!!!!!!

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ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi dmoney...

I think that I mentioned this in the reply to your PM.

People who believe in a "gathering of the Bride" before the period of the "wrath of God" certainly understand that we will have tribulation in this world. The Church has historically endured many terrible tribulations, trials and persecutions. The early Church had members who were burned to the stake, stoned, crucified and even sawed in half (as mentioned in Hebrews 11:36-37). Yet this is mere earthly tribulation.

What sets this period apart is the wrath of God. At that time, God will pour out the wrath that He has been storing up. He will pour it upon entire portions of the Earth. It will be so terrible that the people of Earth will cry out for the mountains to fall upon them in order to hide them from the face of God (Revelation 6:16-17).

I am fairly convinced that the Lord will not pour out His judgment upon the Bride of Christ. I cannot find a single anecdote from Scripture where God pours out His wrath upon His own people. There are anecdotes, however, in which God provided a way of escape for His people. Noah escaped the flood...Lot escaped the fire...the Israelites escaped the death of firstborns.

To this end, I think that many pre-trib and post-trib believers are in accord. I think that we all believe that God has not appointed us to wrath (I Thessalonians 5:9). The question is regarding the extent of the wrath that God will pour out upon the Earth. Will we be there...in the middle of it...but protected (even though everything around us is destroyed...including food and vegetation)? Or will we be somewhere else...taken out...like a Bride picked up by her Groom...and taken to a great wedding supper? We know that there will be people who come to the Lord during that time. But are they under a different sort of period...different than the period of grace following the cross?

God does protect his people threw this time,but they are still there.
Of course, this is an opinion in the sense that we don't know if these people are those of us who are alive BEFORE that period begins...or those who are saved during that time.

This question is far from settled. That is why I tell others to simply be prepared. We should be prepared to endure ANYTHING for our Lord. We might go through that period...or we might be taken out. The important thing is to keep our eyes upon Jesus.

:-)

S
sermonindex


In the Exodus the Israelites went threw the same kind of wrath and were past over because of the lamb. Were there 7 plagues also? Sounds like a shadow of what is to come .In fact the saints are past over the same way.

Revelation 9:3-4
3And out of the smoke locusts came down upon the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. 4They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people WHO DID NOT HAVE THE SEAL of God on their foreheads.
By the blood of the LAMB!


Revelation 12:11

11They overcame him
BY THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB
and by the word of their testimony;
they did not love their lives so much
as to shrink from death.

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

You may have a point. Then again, you may not. There will certainly be converts during that time. We don't know if they are the ones mentioned in Revelation.

The Hebrews were "passed over" because of the blood of the Lamb. However, they did not die at the hand of God if they were under His blood. During the time of God's wrath, the Lord will pour out His wrath upon entire portions of the Earth. Our Lord promises to keep us FROM that hour of trial that will come upon the whole Earth (Revelation 3:10). He didn't say that He would keep us IN or DURING that trial.

The point that I am trying to make is that we should refrain from speaking in [u]absolutes[/u] about a details that are not [u]absolutely[/u] certain. We should be very wary of using the word "facts" when we are merely persuaded about such things.

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sermonindex

"
One of the common arguments used to support a pretribulational rapture is the belief that since the Bible says God's people are not appointed unto wrath (1 Thessalonians 1:10, 5:9) then the Church will therefore not go through the great tribulation, which, they claim, is characterized by the pouring out of the wrath of God (Revelation 15:1, 16:1). If God pours His wrath out upon the world during the final years of mankind, then the Church cannot be there. This reasoning has influenced many Christians into a false hope, for the argument is based upon a complete misunderstanding of the Greek language and the nature of the wrath of God.


TWO KINDS OF WRATH

It all sounds good until a more careful examination of the Greek word for 'wrath' is accomplished. In the New Testament, there are two distinct Greek words for our English word 'wrath': orge and thumos, just like there are different Greek words for our English word 'love'. Both words for 'wrath' have a very distinct meaning, and must not be confused with each other.

-Orge is defined as judiciary wrath, or retributive wrath, being punishment for crimes as implemented by a judge.

-Thumos is defined as passionate anger that flares up but after subsides.

An example of the word thumos can be found in Galatians 5 verse 20, "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath [thumos], strife, seditions, heresies..." Paul is not speaking about justice, but passionate rage. Another example is in Acts 19:28, "And when they heard these sayings, they were full of wrath [thumos], and cried out, saying, Great is Diana of the Ephesians." Notice that the wrath here spoken is not a justifiable wrath against transgression, but the flaring up of anger that comes from passionate emotion. When someone says they have a bad temper, they are talking about this thumos wrath, not the retributive wrath of calculated justice. The word thumos is only found 18 times in the New Testament and always describes this passionate type of wrath.

Orge wrath can be clearly seen in Romans 2:5-6, "But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath [orge] against the day of wrath [orge] and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds." Here the wrath of God is portrayed as judiciary righteous judgment against the ungodly. Orge wrath is directly connected to transgressing the law of God: "Because the law worketh wrath [orge]: for where no law is, there is no transgression." (Romans 4:15) Sin deserves punishment, and that punishment is the orge wrath of God. The word orge is used 36 times in the New Testament and virtually always refers to the righteous legal judgment of God.


WHICH WRATH?

Now let us return to our immediate question. The pretribulationists claim that since God's people are not appointed unto wrath, we shall not experience the wrath of God poured out upon the world during the great tribulation as described in Revelation 15:1 and 16:1. With our new knowledge of Greek terminology, let's examine the key passages of Scripture used in their argument:

1 Thessalonians 1:10 - "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come." The word 'wrath' here is orge, the judiciary judgment of God against sin. Praise God that we are indeed saved through the Blood of Christ from the retributive wrath of God when His righteous judgments shall be revealed! "Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath [orge] through him." (Romans 5:9) Hallelujah! We are justified in His sight!

1 Thessalonians 5:9 - "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ." Again, the word used here is orge. Like in the verse above, Jesus has redeemed us from the punishment we deserved for our transgressions against the law of God! "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us." (Galatians 3:13) Through our faith in what Christ has done we shall obtain salvation from the wages of sin. As John the Baptist said, "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath [orge] of God abideth on him." (John 3:36)

Revelation 15:1 - "And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God." Proceeding from the beginning of chapter 15 to the end of chapter 16, the vials of wrath are poured out upon the earth by the seven angels of God. Since this takes place before Jesus returns and during the great tribulation, the pretribulationists assert that the Church cannot be present, for they are not appointed unto orge wrath. What they have failed to see is that the word 'wrath' used here and throughout these two chapters is not orge wrath at all, but thumos wrath, the hot anger of God being demonstrated against a wicked world PRIOR TO the revelation of Jesus Christ, when He at last comes to tread "the winepress of the fierceness and wrath [orge] of Almighty God." (Revelation 19:15) When Jesus comes He shall judge the earth for all it's wickedness, bringing with Him the righteous retributive judgment of God against His enemies. He shall separate the wheat and the tares, and cast all those who obeyed not the Gospel into the Lake of Fire which burns for ever and ever. That, my dear readers, is the true orge wrath of God, of which we are saved from, and of which we are not appointed to. The thumos wrath of God is something entirely different.


FURTHER ANALYSIS

God's wrath has been displayed all throughout history and will again be unleashed upon a wicked God-hating world in the last days; this is not surprising. But we are not to confuse God's thumos wrath with His orge wrath. When the Lord poured out the plagues upon Egypt in the days of Moses and Aaron, that was His thumos wrath; the passionate anger of the Lord expressed against that hardhearted and tyrannical nation, who oppressed His beloved people for 400 years. We must also remember that when God was pouring out the plagues upon Egypt, the children of Israel were preserved safely throughout it all. Likewise, during the great tribulation when the vials are poured out upon the earth, God's people will be protected safely throughout it all. When God closed the Red Sea over top of the pursuing Egyptian army, that was His thumos wrath bringing an end to the captivity of Israel. The Egyptians experienced God's thumos wrath when the waters toppled over them, but they experienced God's orge wrath when they lifted up their eyes in hell. In the same way, this sinful world will undergo God's thumos wrath against it during the great tribulation, and also when Jesus Christ physically destroys them at His coming, but this is nothing to be compared with the orge wrath men will experience when Jesus Christ sits upon the throne of eternal judgment. Oh Lord, God save us from that dreadful day!

C
Christinyou

And so begins the difference in a heavenly being and an earthly being. Christ is birthed, not created. Adam was birthed of the breath of God, Jesus was birthed by the Seed of God by the Holy Spirit. This is where the big problem of dispensationalism and pre, post, and ah, millennialism come into the biggest problem in doctrines when it comes to man's interpretation of the end times.

Christ is the first born, among many, Who are the many? We are the born a second time believers that now have a new creature nature, that is the Nature of God, by the Christ that is born again in us by the Incorruptable Seed of the Father, Jesus Christ our, Life, Lord And Lover of the Body of His Body, His Church, a complete and totally different dispensation of God when it comes to the children God the Father has prepared His House for, before the foundation of the World began. Eph 1: 4.

Here is and excerpt from a most enlightening article; "The difference is in the dispensations".

It is quite long, it will take different posts at different intervals to complete without using too much space for the whole article.

Chapter Ia, Chapter Ib, Chapter II, Chapter III, Chapter IV, Chart

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The Difference Is In The Dispensations
How to make sense of the differences in the Bible

Introduction and Chapter Ia

By
Timothy S. Morton


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Copyright 1997, Timothy S. Morton, All Rights Reserved. Presented with personal permission given from Timothy S. Morton. "Christinyou2"
All Scripture references and quotations are from the
Authorized King James Version of the Bible


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Introduction
When a person receives the Lord Jesus Christ as his Savior, he, with the Lord, also receives a desire to know more about his salvation and the one who saved him (John 15:26). This desire causes the new believer, possibly for the very first time in his life, to open the Holy Bible in a serious attempt to learn what God has to say. Once in the Scriptures the believer soon realizes that the Bible speaks of much more than just personal salvation and Christ dying on the cross; it speaks of God's whole program for His entire creation from eternity to eternity. It reveals what God wants man to know about God Himself, His creation, and His purpose with His creation. Unless the believer understands this and divides the Bible accordingly (2 Tim. 2:15), he may become overwhelmed by its vast scope and perplexed by its differences. All the Bible's major differences can be reconciled with some study (sometimes very little), but if the believer neglects to study and sort these differences out, he will cheat himself out of understanding not only God's plan and purpose for man in general, but also for himself in particular.
However, even though the Bible is in some areas complex and interwoven, one notable indication that it is the very word of God is the most vital and important subjects found in it are easy to understand. God has purposely made the crucial subjects of sin, man's accountability to God, Christ's substitutionary death, and personal salvation so simple a small child can understand them. He made these matters clear and easy to comprehend so any person wanting the truth about them could by faith act upon them and receive the Lord Jesus Christ as his salvation. These clear yet vital doctrines are referred to as the "simplicity that is in Christ" (2 Cor. 11:3). Though the more complex subjects reveal more of the mind and intentions of God, knowledge of them is not necessary for one to be saved.

Needless to say, the Bible contains both simplicity and complexity by God's direction. He wanted to provide a salvation so simple that a person could understand it and get saved after only being presented with the gospel once (Acts 10:43-44, 16:31, etc.), but He also wanted some other matters more detailed and complex so one would have to labor in the Scriptures a certain degree to sort them out. In this respect some Bible subjects are so mysterious and far-ranging in their scope that no one yet has done much more than scratch the surface of the treasures within them, let alone fully grasp them. Sometimes the Lord even spoke in "parables" to purposely confound those who listen to His words with the wrong "heart" or attitude: those who don't have "ears to hear" (Matt. 13:9-15).

If a person reads the Bible very much at all he is soon confronted with various laws, judgments, ordinances, commandments, doctrines, kingdoms, covenants, testaments, dispensations, gospels, priesthoods, feasts, tribes, churches, etc., and begins to see some of the Bible's complexity. He is further introduced to events known as the Exodus, Israel's Captivity, Daniel's Seventieth Week, the Rapture, the Judgment Seat of Christ, the Tribulation, the Millennium, the White Throne Judgment, the New Heaven and New Earth, etc., that add even more to its broad variety of topics.

Once a reader gets to this point questions usually arise: Where do all these subjects belong? Do they all apply to everyone in every age? Does every precept mentioned in the Bible apply doctrinally to a Christian? What about the doctrines that appear to contradict each other? Is salvation exactly the same in every age? How is one to account for the differences? With this book we will show that the major differences in the Bible can be reconciled by rightly dividing it into dispensations and keeping the different doctrines found in the dispensations in their proper place.

In 2 Timothy 2:15 the Holy Spirit states His word has divisions and the "workman" must "study" to "rightly" divide them. When a believer obeys God's word and with study finds these divisions and applies the truths found in them to their proper place, much of the Bible's complexity disappears and many of its alleged contradictions vanish. Furthermore, many of the different manners, methods, and doctrines in the Bible which often trouble people are reconciled, and the believer begins to see the "big picture" of what God is doing.

Since properly understanding the Bible's divisions is the key to being sound in doctrine and making sense of its differences, failure to do so can lead to dangerous heresies and spiritual chaos. When a preacher or any other believer fails to rightly divide the Bible and discern its differences, he will nearly always end up wresting it. This is one reason there are so many "Christian" cults today. Instead of rightly dividing the Bible, they ignore some or all of its divisions and produce a religious system that is littered with heresies, some of them deadly. When a person takes a precept or doctrine peculiar to one dispensation and forces it to apply doctrinally to another, he ends up with a heresy every time. He may quote several Bible verses to "prove" his doctrine, but it is still a lie once it is divorced from its corresponding dispensation.

In view of this, it is essential that every believer keep in mind that God spoke the words recorded in the Bible in "sundry times and diverse manners" (Heb. 1:1): to different people at different times. Thus the Scriptures were not written only for believers in the present Church Age, they were written for believers (and unbelievers) of all the ages. In short, the Bible was written FOR everyone for their learning (Rom. 15:4) but not addressed TO everyone in every age for doctrine. True, every verse in the Bible applies doctrinally somewhere, but many verses found in it do not apply doctrinally today. Of course, any Bible passage can be used inspirationally in any dispensation to help teach a present truth, but doctrine is another matter. For instance, most will agree the laws God gave to Israel through Moses do not apply doctrinally to Christians. The Israelites had strict religious, social, and dietary laws they had to comply with (Lev. ch. 1-15), but none of these laws, as laws, apply to believers today (Col. 2:14). A Jew at that time even had to have a human priest to work in his behalf towards God; today, every Christian is a priest himself (1 Peter 2:9). If one doesn't rightly divide the word of truth he can't help but wrest it, no matter how "sincere and devoted" he is.

Concerning the dividing of the Bible into dispensations, even the most liberal Bible readers (who often criticize "dispensationalism") will acknowledge at least one division in the Scriptures: the division between Malachi and Matthew dividing to Old from the New Testament. This division is so obvious that even an atheist can find it. Anyone who has read the Bible much at all knows the Old Testament is different from the New Testament and by doing so he admits to two dispensations. This makes him a "dispensationalist" whether he refers to himself as one or not. If these critics would study their Bibles a little more and believe what they read, they would find at least six more important divisions, each one revealing vital lessons.

A very large work would be required for one to try to exhaustively categorize and reconcile every difference found in the Bible, thus this is well beyond the scope of this relatively small book. The main purpose of this book is to present to the reader in a concise manner the principal and most important divisions of the Bible by examining its covenants and dispensations.

In addition, since the subject of personal salvation from sin is the most important and relevant issue to a sinner in any dispensation (and also probably the subject that causes the most debate and controversy among professing Christians today), we will also look at the dispensations from this perspective. In the first chapter we will briefly examine each covenant and its accompanying dispensation, noting the major elements of each; then in the following chapters we will take on the crucial subject of personal salvation in the different dispensations and examine the differences between them in this context.

I
The Covenants and The Dispensations
Over the centuries believers have developed several methods of studying the Bible. Some study it systematically by topic, others use an inductive or deductive method to arrive at conclusions, still others divide the Bible into "stages" or sections to make it more manageable, many study guides outline studies by book, chapter, or topic, and yet others study it dispensationally. Although there is merit in all of these methods, studying the Bible dispensationally with the covenants marking the divisions is the easiest and surest way one can see the various systems God has placed in the Scriptures and get a sufficient understanding of what He is doing. The Bible's divisions do not neatly divide between books, chapters, or subjective "stages," so the best method to get the overall picture of God's program is to study the Bible using its own terms of "covenant" and "dispensation," letting them mark the divisions.
Defining the Terms
A covenant is generally defined as a mutual agreement between two parties. In the Scriptures some covenants are unconditional and continue regardless of the conduct of man, while others are conditioned on obedience. Each covenant God makes with man (with few exceptions) marks the beginning of a new dispensation. The dispensation carries on the doctrines God established with the covenant.
Another word for covenant in the Bible is "testament," thus the 27 books known as the New Testament proclaim the new covenant God has made with man through the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ. Technically, much of the first four books of the New Testament (the gospels) refer to events that occurred under the old covenant of the Law, but the atonement Christ made with his death and resurrection as revealed in the gospels made possible the new covenant of grace in effect today.

A dispensation is usually defined as a "period of time" in which God works with and in His people in a particular way, but this is only partially true. Calling a dispensation primarily a period of time will not bear up under close scrutiny of the Scriptures. In the Bible the term "dispensation" refers to a manner, method, or particular arrangement of dealing with people God has chosen to dispense during a period of time, not the time period itself. Usually the length of time is not emphasized or even mentioned, it is the doctrines God has established to be valid during that time that distinguishes one dispensation from another. In short, a dispensation is a certain mode of testing God has dispensed to man, while a covenant is a contract or promise between God and man.

The term "dispensation" is found four times in the Scriptures (1 Cor. 9:17; Eph. 1:10, 3:2; Col. 1:25), and each passage makes it clear that God is dispensing something. In Eph. 3:2 it is "grace" itself that is dispensed, not a period of time called the "grace of God." God revealed through Paul how He was dispensing His grace to all men by making a free salvation available to them in Jesus Christ. This is contrasted with the Dispensation of the Law where God gave mainly law (though grace can be readily found in every dispensation). Under the Law obedience was demanded, obey the laws and live; break them and die (Gal. 3:10-13). In this Church Age of Grace, however, it is not obey the law but only receive Christ to be saved. In a nutshell, God simply uses covenants and dispensations to deal with man in different manners under different circumstances to teach and show him things about himself and his Creator.

The Edenic Covenant and The Dispensation of Innocence
Obviously, all things begin with God, and God's dealings with man began the moment He created Adam. Genesis chapters 1-3 tell us God didn't create Adam to only lounge in a beautiful garden, He gave him specific commands to obey and jobs to occupy him. This contract between God and Adam is the first covenant between God and any man; it is commonly known as the Edenic Covenant. In this covenant God supplied Adam with many blessings, among them life, a perfect body, a perfect environment, a world without pain, hunger, sickness or death, and also a wife. All Adam (and Eve) had to do was to keep six conditions God had laid down to keep the covenant in effect with all its blessings. God told them to:
1. Multiply and replenish the earth (Gen. 1:28).
2. Subdue the earth for their use (Gen. 1:28).
3. Exercise dominion over the animal creation (Gen. 1:28).
4. Have only a vegetable diet (Gen. 1:29).
5. Dress and keep the garden they were put in (Gen. 2:15).
6. Abstain from eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (Gen. 2:17).

This covenant remained in force until Adam broke it by eating of the forbidden tree. God kept his part but man did not keep his. A trend that will sadly continue through every dispensation.

The Edenic Covenant introduced the Dispensation of Innocence. The doctrines or requirements God established with the Edenic Covenant (above) expressed the kind of behavior He desired from Adam while it was in force. Remember, a covenant is an agreement or contract between God and man, it may be conditional (as this covenant) or unconditional. On the other hand a dispensation is the particular method of dealing WITH man God works under (the doctrines He has dispensed to be valid during that time), and the manner of behavior He requires OF man during the time period which began with a covenant.

The Dispensation of Innocence is so named because Adam was created as an innocent creature and had no natural inclination towards evil or righteousness. Although Adam was not a "sinner" until he ate of the tree of knowledge, neither was he righteous in God's sight. He was merely an innocent, untested creature who had no evil in him to separate him from God, nor any righteousness in him to commend him to God. Before he fell Adam was in a kind of moral "limbo" which God apparently never intended him to stay in long.

Some believers mistakenly believe the condition Adam was in at creation is the position a born again believer has before God in this present dispensation. They think salvation only puts them back like Adam was before the fall; that is, in an innocent state. If this were true a Christian could lose his salvation! Adam fell from his innocent position! This is a good example of failure to properly divide the Scriptures, and the Christians who hold this view are robbing themselves of some of the most precious truths concerning New Testament salvation. More on this later.

With this case of Adam alone we can already see how dispensations differ from each other. There is very little the Dispensation of Innocence has in common with any other dispensation. Nowhere in the dispensations of Family, Law, Grace, etc., does God command anyone to subdue the earth, keep a garden, eat only vegetables, or not eat of a certain tree. These doctrines were valid ONLY as long as the covenant and following dispensation were in force. When Adam broke the covenant, its doctrines were superseded by the next one.

When Adam ate of the Tree of Knowledge he died spiritually (Eph.2:1) and acquired an evil nature, but God in an act of mercy and grace did not yet allow him to die physically. His body did begin on its trek toward the grave, but God quickly made another covenant with Adam which contained a promise of ultimate deliverance.

The Adamic Covenant and The Dispensation of Conscience
When Adam ate of the forbidden tree at the bidding of his wife, they both acquired something they before thought desirable but soon turned out to be a curse; that is, knowledge. After Adam ate they both quickly learned the knowledge they obtained was quite different from what the Serpent represented it to be. It was not just "knowledge" for knowledge's sake, but the knowledge of EVIL. Contrary to many not all knowledge is beneficial. There are some things a person should not try to learn or seek after, and the greatest of these is a knowledge of evil (Rom. 16:19; 1 Co. 14:20). It is the knowledge of evil that condemned Adam and Eve to death, and it is the same that separates one child who is accountable for his actions from another who is not. In fact, it is the knowledge of evil or sin that condemns every man as a sinner, and every person born of Adam inherits the capacity for this knowledge. That the Serpent deceived Eve and led her to think all knowledge was desirable is immaterial. Adam knew exactly what God said; he made his choice for Eve knowing they both would die (1 Tim 2:14).
After he ate, Adam knew at least three things he didn't know before. He knew he had eaten of the forbidden tree and would die; he knew he had broken God's covenant; and he knew he was naked. This new knowledge caused him to feel fear and guilt for the first time and these in turn caused him to flee from God's presence. In spite of Adam's blatant sin, God did not abandon him. Though the Edenic Covenant was now broken, God did not cast aside His new creation. By His foreknowledge and grace He made another covenant with Adam, and unlike the first one this covenant was unconditional and is still in effect today. It is called the Adamic Covenant.

Knowing the end from the beginning and the whole scheme of events He would allow to follow, God made such a far-ranging covenant with Adam, including all of his descendants, that it remains fully valid with its effects still felt today. This covenant testifies to all mankind the willing act of disobedience their father Adam performed in a garden so long ago. This covenant, given to Adam and Eve before they were expelled from the presence of the Tree of Life, is composed of several curses and a promise. The curses affect all three parties involved in the sin.

1. The Serpent, which was the fleshy tool of Satan, was cursed to crawl upon the ground and eat dust (Gen. 3:14). This curse remains in effect through the Millennium (Isa. 65:25).
2. a. As for the woman, she was to have multiplied conception. One reason for this is because the earth will be harder to fill with people with the entrance of death.
b. She also was to bear children in sorrow. She is going to have more children but will have to bear them in sorrow because she is bringing another "sinner" into the world.
c. Thirdly, the woman will have a desire for her husband and will be in subjection to him (Gen. 3:16).
3. As for the man, first of all the ground that so freely gave forth its fruit was cursed. Man must now till the ground in sorrow and sweat and endure weeds that will choke and weaken his crops. Then, after a life of labor and toil, he must pay for his sin in the garden and physically die, returning to the earth he worked (Gen. 3:17-19).

Man has spent the last six millennia trying to undo everyone of these curses (with drugs, chemicals, technology, etc.) with only superficial success, but, of course, the curse he is most desperately trying to stop is death. Ever since Adam man has sought ways to overcome death or at least delay it for even a short period (Satan knows this well, Job 2:4), but eventually death wins out. The death rate remains 100%. God cannot be beaten, what He has cursed is cursed. These curses will not be completely lifted until the renovation of the earth by fire after the Millennium.

Among these sorrowful curses, however, God has thrown in a precious promise (Gen. 3:15). Its purpose was to show mankind what kind of God the Lord is and to show him He will provide a means of deliverance that can ultimately release him from the curses. The promise (which was actually addressed to the Serpent) was the "seed" of the woman (Christ) would bruise the head of the Serpent (a mortal blow) while the seed of the Serpent (the Beast) will bruise the woman's seed's heel. To Adam (and to those many centuries after him) this likely meant that a future "seed," born of a woman, would somehow redeem them and destroy the Serpent in the process, releasing them from his bondage. This is apparently all that was revealed to Adam about a future redeemer. There is nothing mentioned about a "cross" or a "new birth," all he knew was somebody was promised to come. Anyway, by God's grace Adam now had a hope to look forward to, even though he remained joined to sin and death.

Although the Dispensation of Conscience, began with the Adamic Covenant, it does not last as long as the covenant. It is replaced by another dispensation when Noah departs the ark; long before the end of the Millennium. Here is an important lesson: even though a covenant usually introduces a particular dispensation, the covenant and dispensation do not have to end together. A covenant can still be in effect long after its original dispensation has been replaced. Unconditional covenants can overlap each other or be in effect simultaneously, but by strict definition dispensations can not. This should become clearer as we go along.

The Dispensation of Conscience is so named because during this period man had nothing to guide him but his conscience. God did not give any specific commands to anyone during this dispensation. There were no "thou shalts" or "thou shalt nots;" God just left man to his own heart to guide him. Needless to say, man utterly failed in following his conscience. For the most part he hardened it and became extremely wicked. This wickedness was the cause of the flood (Gen. 6).

Some may ask here, "How could God hold them accountable for being wicked when He gave them no specific laws to keep?" The answer is man has an unwritten law written in his heart or conscience (Rom. 2:14-15). Though this law is vague compared to a written or verbal law, it will still convict a person of guilt when he contemplates evil. For instance, when Cain slew his brother Abel, he did not break any written law against murder because none was yet given, but he did break the law God had written in his heart and was therefore guilty. Like his father, Cain had a knowledge of good and evil, and he willingly chose evil. Every accountable person even today, no matter where he is, knows murder, adultery, stealing, and the like are wrong whether he has heard of the word of God or not. These laws are embedded into every man's conscience, but the conscience imparts no power to keep man from breaking it.

Man's responsibility in the Dispensation of Conscience (and to those in every other dispensation who have had no contact with the Scriptures) was to simply follow his conscience. If one listens carefully to his conscience, it will convict him of sin and lead him to God for salvation (Cornelius, for example, Acts 10). But if he doesn't listen to it and hardens it, all he has to look forward to is judgment. Since the people from Adam to Noah ignored their conscience and followed wickedness, God was forced to bring judgment—the flood. Man fails again.

The Noahic Covenant and The Dispensation of Human Government
When Noah left the ark after the flood, God made His third covenant with man; the Noahic Covenant (Gen. 8:20-9:17). Like the previous this covenant is also unconditional and lasts until the renovation of the earth by fire (2 Pet. 3:10). In many ways God is starting over with man. Having destroyed everyone except Noah and his family because of extreme wickedness, God sought to replenish the earth through Noah because Noah found grace in His eyes (Gen. 6:8). Like the others before, this covenant contains promises TO man and responsibilities required OF man. The promises were:
1. God would not curse the ground anymore or smite every living thing (Gen. 8:20).
2. He would not flood the earth again and destroy it (Gen. 9:11).
3. The seasons and day and night will not cease (Gen. 8:22).
4. He would set the sign of a (rain)bow in the clouds as a token of His covenant (Gen. 9:12).

These promises are valid and continue regardless of man's conduct, but God also had some requirements for man to follow:

1. He was to again multiply and replenish the earth (Gen. 9:1,7).
2. They were not to eat blood from any source (Gen. 9:4).
3. They were to exercise capital punishment upon man and beast (Gen. 9:5).

God also made two other statements related to this covenant:

1. Animals would fear and dread man (Gen. 9:2).
2. Animals were now available for food (Gen. 9:3).

Through the great object lesson of the flood, God showed humanity His hatred of sin. Though man often takes sin lightly, God proved He does not and will always ultimately punish iniquity. Also seen in this is God's long-suffering nature. The Lord will sometimes delay punishment to allow space for repentance. This is clear from the grace found in the above promises to Noah. God knows that because of the fall of Adam, every man is born inherently wicked. Because of this He will not smite the earth again in the same manner since He has made His will clearly known about sin with the flood. In the future He will destroy the Antichrist and all his followers at the second advent, but he will not destroy the earth itself until his great scheme of things concerning it is over, and then only with fire.

Much of man's obligations under this covenant are still in effect today and will continue until the elements melt with fervent heat (2 Pet. 3:10). The command against the eating of blood is also found in the New Testament (Acts 15:29) and capital punishment is still God's will even if many today ignore it (Rom. 13:4). Remember, the subject of capital punishment was first brought up by God. There is no record it was ever practiced before God made the command to Noah. It is solely His idea and shows the sanctity of human life and the consequences of taking it with malice. Under the law God gave more details concerning its implementation.

Rebellion at Babel
The primary responsibility of man in the Noahic Covenant was to "be fruitful and multiply and REPLENISH THE EARTH," but in this also he miserably failed. The earth's population did rapidly increase after the flood, but all the people stayed near an area later known as Babel. God wanted man to scatter and repopulate the whole earth, not remain in one area. The failure of man to do this brought upon him another judgment.
The descendants of Noah directly rebelled against the command to scatter and sought to stay united around a great city and tower in the plain of Shinar. In a few short years they also abandoned God in all their thoughts like those before the flood, and their greatest fear was not to displease God, but that they would be scattered. They thought safety was in numbers. It appears they built the city, with its tower, to act as a political, cultural, and religious center for them to gather around and become as a group, self-reliant. They thought they did not need any God and could "make the world a better place to live in" by themselves. God looked down and saw how they were one in language and purpose (what man says he strives for today), and how they were on the verge of making their imaginations real (likely with autos, airplanes, spacecraft, computers, or similar), and He decided to scatter them Himself.

God was not yet ready for man to advance in knowledge and technology as much as the people of Babel were capable of, so He did the simplest thing; He confounded their language. There were some vital lessons God wanted man to learn about himself and his Creator over the coming centuries before He would allow them to advance that far. Clearly, God is a segregator. The world at that time was determined to stay united and integrated, but God had other plans. The confounding of their language (certainly Hebrew) and resulting scattering was also a punishment for their disobedience. The different tongues made the respective groups unfamiliar with each other, and each language group became primarily occupied with getting and keeping territory, goods, and wealth from the other, now strange, groups. Building a one world empire was in the meanwhile forgotten. Most of the wars, famines, and other forms of suffering found throughout history are a direct result of the rebellion of the world at Babel.

The Dispensation of Human Government, which ran from Noah to Abraham, made man responsible for governing himself when he did wrong. God gave him very basic principles (listed above) to guide him in this, and man was required to keep them. Since man would not listen to his conscience and let it lead him to God, God made mankind as a whole responsible for punishing the sins of individuals and keeping iniquity in check. Of course, in this also man failed, but now he cannot come to God and say he wasn't given a chance to try! Instead of forming a government that was consistent with God and His commands, man developed one that was directly against him. As the one world, global, universal, United Nations, common market, Babel of today, the Babel of 4300 years ago was more concerned about unity and progress than about their sins and God.

Before we move on there is another covenant-like setup found in this dispensation between God and Noah's three sons (Gen. 9:20-29). After Noah heard the details of the above covenant, he planted a vineyard and became drunk from the wine it produced. While he was in this drunken state his son, Ham, came in unto him and saw his "nakedness." In other words Ham sodomized his father (Gen. 9:24; Lev. 18:6). When Noah recovered from his wine and realized what Ham had "done unto him," he cursed Ham's seed in the person of his son Canaan. He didn't curse Ham himself because God had previously blessed him (Gen. 9:1). Noah then continues to make a series of prophetic statements that may have been somewhat vague to his three sons (the fathers of the three races), but events that have occurred down through history since make them clearer to us.

1. Canaan (Ham's seed) is cursed to be a servant of his brethren (Shem and Japeth). Since the descendants of Ham moved south toward Africa, making him the father of the black race, this curse begins to fall into place. For millennia members of the black race have been slaves to other men.

2. Shem on the other hand is blessed. Noah said "blessed be the Lord God of Shem," and we learn later Shem is an ancestor of Abraham and the Lord Jesus Christ. God blessed the world with a Savior through Shem.

3. Japeth also is blessed, and he was to be enlarged and dwell in the former dwelling places (tents) of Shem. If at no other time, this has come to pass in the last 500 years. Thousands of Japethites (Europeans) crossed the Atlantic into North and South America, into dwelling places of Shemites.

These blessings and curse have come to pass in every detail. Shem is the religious race (every major religion came from him); Japeth is the worldly, materialistic race; and Canaan is their servant. Of course there are many individual exceptions to this, but racially they are consistent.


Go To Chapter Ib

You can go to the article if you would like to study and begin your refutation of dispensations and premillennial standing.

http://www.preservedwords.com/dispen1a.htm

In Christ: Phillip

C
Christinyou

The Difference Is In The Dispensations

How to make sense of the differences in the Bible

Chapter Ib

The Covenants And The Dispensations cont.


The Abrahamic Covenant and The Dispensation of Promise
Nine generations after Shem, Abraham was born. Abraham was about 75 years old and living in Ur of the Chaldees when God one day spoke to him. God, through His amazing grace, wanted to make another covenant with man and chose Abraham as His partner. The covenant He made with him was again unconditional and contained many promises (Gen 12:1-3). The only hint of a condition appears to be that Abraham had to forsake his home and family and go to a land God would show him. When Abraham obeyed and entered the land the promises became fixed. God promised to:
1. Make Abraham a great nation (vs. 2). This promise has been fulfilled both physically and spiritually. Physically through Isaac and Ishmael, spiritually through all those who have Abraham's faith (Gal. 3:7).
2. To bless him (vs. 2), and He did this also both physically (13:14-18) and spiritually (15:6).
3. To make his name great (vs. 2). Still today the name of Abraham is known and respected by millions.
4. Make him a blessing to others (vs. 2). Abraham blessed people in his own time and blessed humanity by his seed Jesus Christ.
5. To bless those who bless him (vs. 3).
6. And curse those who curse him (vs. 3). God has not only blessed those who blessed Abraham, but He also blessed those who blessed the nation that sprang from his loins, Israel. On the other hand, those who cursed Israel (Babylon, Assyria, Rome, Germany, etc.) must suffer. Some have suffered already, but these promises will not be completely fulfilled until the future.
7. Bless all the families of the earth in him (vs. 3). The fulfillment of this is Christ himself, who blesses all those who believe on Him with salvation and who will also physically bless all who are in the millennium.

Though this covenant is unconditional it does not apply universally to everyone. Doctrinally, it only applies to the Hebrew race through Isaac and Jacob (Israel). Gentiles can only get in on it by receiving Abraham's promised Seed—Jesus Christ. Those who refuse to receive Him, Jew or Gentile, will be judged by Him.

Like the Noahic Covenant this covenant also has a sign, and it is circumcision (Gen. 17:9-14). Circumcision is a token of the promises God has made to Abraham and his seed, and anyone who refused or neglected to accept it was cut off from his people and the promises (excommunication). Circumcision was the only obligation Abraham and his people had under this covenant. If they performed it by faith, they had full access to all the promises. God again reconfirmed this covenant in Genenis chapter 15 after Abraham "believed in the Lord..." and asked for more details. After Abraham offered five offerings as God commanded, the Lord again affirmed the covenant and revealed how Abraham's seed would be a stranger in a land (Egypt) and afflicted for 400 years. God also revealed the boundaries of the land given to Abraham. Moreover, God promised all of this to Abraham while Abraham was asleep! This proves the covenant is unconditional. God reconfirmed the covenant again after Abraham passed his severe but revealing test of offering Isaac (Gen. 22:15-18).

Another significant thing about this covenant is it apparently has no ending. It goes beyond the Millennium and renovation of the earth and even past the New Heaven and New Earth. Therefore, the nation of Israel, governed by its Messiah and King, will still be in existence at the gate of eternity.

The dispensation that began with this covenant is called the Dispensation of Promise for obvious reasons. For the first time God has made promises to one group of people at the exclusion of all others. From the time of Abraham on in the Old Testament, the only way someone other than an Israelite could partake of the promises was to become an Israelite himself (Ruth, for example [Ruth 1:16]). Again, the only way now is to receive Jesus Christ. By some this dispensation is called the Dispensation of the Family because everything God had to say to man He said to this one family. The promises He made to Abraham He reconfirmed to his son Isaac, his grand-son Jacob, and then to Jacob's sons, the heads of the twelve tribes of Israel. The manner of behavior God expected in this dispensation is much like the previous except that He told Abraham to go to a certain land and stay there (Canaan).

Abraham obeyed in going to the land, but when a famine came and times got hard he fled into Egypt for food. He could not yet trust God enough to stay. This again shows the weakness and failure of man to live up to God's requirements. In every dispensation man in some way fails to keep God's word and consequently brings judgment upon himself.

Moreover, the character of the descendants of Abraham degenerated from that of Abraham. Even though Abraham was afraid and lied in Egypt about Sarah, Isaac seemed to lie more easily (Gen. 26:7). Jacob (meaning Deceiver or Supplanter) was even more blatant in sin. He lied, deceived, tricked, and schemed it appears without a second thought (Gen. 27:6-29). Likewise, his sons (with the exception of Joseph) were even more mixed up in vice and evil. From adultery with handmaids and harlots to murder and kidnapping (Gen. 34:25, 37:23-36, 38:12-18), they all seemed to think lightly of sin. The actions of everyone concerned, from Abraham on down, and the degeneration of the character of the family in each succeeding generation caused God to send Abraham's seed into Egypt and later into bondage. It was 430 years from the call of Abraham to the exodus from Egypt, the length of this dispensation.

The Mosaic Covenant and The Dispensation of the Law
By the time Moses was born, the 75 people that went with Jacob into Egypt had grown into millions. The new king that "knew not Joseph" put them into heavy bondage and eventually the Israelites began to cry upon the Lord for deliverance. God heard their cry and sent them a deliverer from among their own—Moses. Since the self-governing of man in the dispensations of Conscience and Promise failed, God established a highly comprehensive and detailed dispensation where He could rule man Himself from a central place of worship.
After revealing Himself to Moses in the wilderness, God sent Moses back into Egypt to free his brethren from their slavery. With great signs and wonders He performed through Moses, God forced Israel's release and brought the people across the Red Sea to make a nation out of them as He promised to Abraham. On their way to the promised land (Canaan), God established His covenant with them at Mt. Sinai, and this time the covenant is completely conditional. That is, for God to continue to do His part, the Israelites had to continue to do theirs. The bulk of this covenant is called "the law," a detailed list of rules and regulations concerning nearly every aspect of life. No longer were they to be guided only by their conscience or the opinions of other men, God had given them very specific WRITTEN commands which were easily understood and could be consulted at any time.

In Exodus 19:5-6 God, through Moses, lays the covenant before the people and tells them what He will do for them "if" they obey His voice. The people of one accord reply "All that the Lord has spoken we will do" (Ex. 19:8) and the covenant is sealed. In the next chapter God gives them the "Ten Commandments," and in much of the rest of Exodus, nearly all of Leviticus, and a good portion of Numbers and Deuteronomy, He reveals more requirements. This covenant can be broken into three parts:

1. The Moral Law (Ex. 20: 1-26, the Ten Commandments, etc.).

2. The Civil (or Judicial) Law (Ex. 21:1-24:18). This was the precepts of the judicial system for the punishment of crimes and settlement of disputes.

3. The Ceremonial Law (Ex. 25:1-40:38, etc.). This was in essence their religious system and included all the details of sacrifice and worship (the tabernacle, priesthood, offerings, etc.).

This covenant also has a sign: the sabbath day—the seventh day of the week (Saturday [Ex. 31:13-17]).

Here, we must remind the reader that this covenant was only between God and the Israelites. No part of it applied to any Gentile then and neither does it now. The moral law of God found in the Ten Commandments is a reflection of God's nature and is profitable for anyone in any dispensation, but doctrinally as given in Exodus and Deuteronomy they are binding only on the Jews. All of the commandments, excluding the fifth (the sabbath), can be found in some form in the New Testament, thus making their message apply also to born again Christians, but as they are found in the Mosaic Covenant, they apply ONLY to Israel.

As we have said much of the Scripture wresting that goes on today is a result of people not properly dividing the Scriptures and forcing doctrines from one dispensational arrangement into another. The Sabbath, for instance, is one that is today heavily abused. God clearly states in Ex. 31:13-17 that the Sabbath is to and for the children of Israel alone and binding on no one else. Some think since it is found in the Ten Commandments it is an "eternal" law to everyone, but as mentioned above, no one else was ever commanded to keep it. In fact a born again Christian is not commanded to set apart any particular day for worship, not even the Lord's day (Sunday). He is free to meet on any day he esteems best (Rom. 14:5). Most believers usually meet on the Lord's day, however, by following the examples found in the New Testament (Acts 20:7, etc.). Again, when one tries to place a doctrine peculiar to one dispensation into another he will always end up with heresy.

The Dispensation of the Law lasted from the exodus out of Egypt until the cross (around 1500 years), and God kept his part of the covenant despite many failures of the Israelites to keep theirs. Just a short period of time after they promised to obey it, the Jews rebelled against the Lord, but God graciously gave them many more chances to obey. When they rebelled against Moses over the bitter water, God made the water sweet (Ex. 15:25). When they murmured about the lack of food, God gave them manna for 40 years (Ex. 16). When they became idolaters and worshipped the golden calf, clearly breaking the covenant, God again had grace and mercy on them though He had a mind to do otherwise (Ex. 32).

Over the years God was very long-suffering with Israel and overlooked many of their transgressions. When Moses died God was gracious and gave them another leader, Joshua. When he died God gave them judges to lead them. When they sought to be like the heathen and wanted a king, God warned them against it but nevertheless gave them Saul. After Saul came a man after His own heart, David. After David, God gave them His wisdom through Solomon, and on and on. God gave His people every advantage and opportunity to love obey and serve Him as He desired, but the Jews were a stiff-necked and rebellious people. With a pitiful few short periods of semi-obedience and loyalty to their credit, the Jews were usually characterized by rebellion, immorality, and idolatry.

Though God was long-suffering with Israel, He would not put up with their rebellion forever, and after almost 1000 years His patience ran out. In the meantime He sent numerous prophets (Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, etc.) to warn them of what He was about to do if they didn't repent, but for the most part they either ignored them or persecuted them. God faithfully protected Israel from her enemies for centuries, but around 606 BC, because of their failure to return to Him, He let their enemies have them. The Babylonians destroyed Jerusalem and carried the people into Babylon to again be slaves. Only after 70 years, after a new generation came along, did God allow them to return to Jerusalem and rebuild it under Ezra and Nehemiah. Though they rebuilt it with the purest of intentions, they again, over the next four centuries, degenerated and became so filled with unbelief, self-righteousness, and hatred that they did not even recognize their own promised Messiah when He walked among them (Jn. 1:10-11)! More than that they mercilessly persecuted and then crucified Him! So much for the humanistic notions there is "a spark of divinity in every man" or "man is basically good."

God has up to this point set up five different doctrinal arrangements with man, five different methods of testing and dealing with him, and man has miserably failed in every one!

The Davidic Covenant and The Dispensation of Grace
This covenant and dispensational arrangement is different from the others because the covenant is given nearly 1000 years before it and its accompanying dispensation go into effect. Instead of starting when it was first mentioned, this covenant is not fully in effect until David's seed comes along (Jesus Christ).
Once when Israel was at peace and David was at rest from his enemies, David wanted to do something for God and proposed building Him a permanent house (temple) to dwell in. Through Nathan the prophet God told David He did not yet want a house, but appreciated the thought (1 Ki. 8:18), and He then told David He was going to make a house out of HIM.

God made three promises to David in this unconditional covenant found in 2 Sam. 7:4-17:

1. That his house (posterity) would never cease (vs. 12-13).
2. That his throne will never be completely destroyed and continue forever (vs. 13, 16).
3. That his earthly kingdom will also continue forever through his promised seed (vs. 13, 16).

In some respects this covenant could be speaking of Solomon as the seed, but Solomon's reign ended in apostasy (1 Kings 11), thus another seed of David must be the ultimate fulfillment—the Lord Jesus Christ. Christ is the only person who can possibly fulfill it. He is the seed of Adam, Shem, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judah, and David, and he is the only person in history who fulfills the more than sixty other prophesies God had given concerning the "seed." Before Christ was born the angel Gabriel told Mary the son to be born of her was to be the "son of the highest" (God), the "son of David" (man), and He would reign on David's throne forever (Luke 1:30-33). This covenant, like the Abrahamic Covenant continues to the gate of eternity.

Since the fulfillment of this covenant is Jesus Christ, and God is going to keep all of His promises to David in Christ, the covenant did not come into effect until Christ was born. That no seed of David has reigned in Jerusalem since the Babylonian captivity has nothing to do with the fulfillment of this covenant. It is not until after Israel's full chastisement for rejecting Christ is completed (Tribulation) that Christ comes as a King to reign on David's throne (Millennium). Christ came the first time as a Servant and sacrificial Lamb; the second time He will come as a Warrior and King.

The dispensation ushered in by the Davidic Covenant is our present Dispensation of Grace. Again, that this dispensation is named grace does not mean that God's grace cannot be found in the other dispensations, only that it is more prevalent and visible in this one. God often had mercy and grace on many in the past (Adam, Noah, Abraham, David, etc.), but now He freely offers His saving grace to everyone through the shed blood of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Technically, this dispensation does not begin with Christ's birth but with his death and resurrection. It extends from the cross to the calling up of all believers, dead or alive, at the rapture. (1 Thes. 4:13-18). In some ways this is a parenthetical dispensation because it is in the form of a mystery and sandwiched between the two Jewish dispensations of Law and the Millennium.

The subject of this dispensation is a group called "the church" or "the body of Christ." The Church is the mystery referred to in Eph. 3:3-9 and is so named because God had not revealed in the Old Testament that He was going to form such an organism, especially from both Jews and Gentiles. The New Testament tells us God's purpose in the Church is to gather a "people for His name" from all humanity, Jew and Gentile, in Jesus Christ to (among other things) become Christ's bride. "Whosoever will" can become a member of this living organism by simply repenting and by faith receiving the risen Jesus Christ into his heart. No works are required to obtain or keep this eternal salvation; all one must have is Jesus Christ in him. Christ has promised to freely come into and save all who will admit they are sinners, abandon all other means of salvation, and trust Him alone as Savior.

In this dispensation God is no longer dealing with man primarily as nations but as individuals. Every individual can have a personal relationship with God through the Lord Jesus Christ and he does not have to go through any priest or religious system to receive atonement for his sins. Israel, as a nation, has been placed on a "back burner" because of their blindness, but individual Jews can be saved just the same as Gentiles until this dispensation ends. The "Church of God" is a distinct body from both Jews and Gentiles and has many blessings these two groups don't enjoy. God has poured many extremely rich blessings upon the saved of this dispensation that He has not given to those of any other. Even those saved in future dispensations do not have many of the precious treasures the Body of Christ has now. For example:

1. The new birth (regeneration [Tit. 3:5, etc.]). There is no clear, biblical proof that the new birth is valid in any other dispensation (More on this later).
2. A completed atonement (described under the salvation doctrines propitiation and redemption [Heb. 9:12; 1 Jn. 2:2]). Until Christ's death salvation was "on credit."
3. Eternal and everlasting life that the believer cannot loose (described under the salvation doctrines justification, adoption, reconciliation, imputation, etc. [John 3:16, 5:24; etc.])
4. Salvation by faith alone, no works at all required to obtain or keep it (Eph 2:8-9; etc.).
5. The indwelling Holy Spirit who comforts, empowers, and seals believers (Eph. 4:30).
6. A position in Christ's Body and Bride (Eph. 5:30-32).
7. The promise of a supernatural body like Christ's resurrection body (Phil. 3:21).
8. A future mansion in the New Jerusalem (John 14:1-3).

Clearly, born again Christians, by no value of their own, have been given more blessings and promises than any other group of saved people, all by the good pleasure and pure grace of God. Why God selected this group to shower these amazing privileges on is fully known only by Him, but how much more should we who are saved and partake of them obey God's wishes with love and thanksgiving?

The obligation of believers during this dispensation is simple and direct. Each believer is to:

1. Evangelize by preaching the gospel of the grace of God to every creature (Matt. 28:19-20; Mark 16:15).
2. Be filled with the Holy Spirit and let Him direct his every thought and action (Gal. 5:16; Eph.5:18).
3. Present himself as a living sacrifice for God's service and separate himself from the world (Rom. 12:1-2).

Whether the believer obeys or disobeys these duties has nothing to do with his salvation, but disobedience will cost him rewards and crowns at the Judgment Seat of Christ where every believer will give account of himself to God (Rom. 14:10).

Even with the multitude of great blessings and privileges God has showered upon believers in Christ, this dispensation still ends in failure. Their failure was hinted at by Christ before the cross. He said when He returned the times would then be like the days of Noah thousands of years earlier (Matt. 24:37-39), characterized by unrestrained rebellion, wickedness, and apostasy. With all God has given believers in this present dispensation, they have again willingly refused to consistently do as He commanded.

Soon Christ will return and secretly take away all the Christians to Heaven and judgment and let the world continue, then even faster, toward its destiny of destruction.

The Tribulation Period
Sometime after the rapture, possibly immediately or maybe years later, the Tribulation Period will began. In Jer. 30:6 this period is called "the time of Jacob's trouble" because God is going to judge Israel as a nation by allowing Satan to "trouble" them (through the Antichrist) for rejecting Jesus Christ as their Messiah. Though Satan will have his own reasons for punishing the Jews, God will allow him to do it because they said concerning Christ "crucify him, crucify him" (John 19:6) and "his blood be on us and on our CHILDREN" (Matt. 27:25). God simply gives them their request. This is the time period Christ was referring to when He said, "...for then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be" (Matt. 24:21). It will be disaster and sorrow on such a scale that the strongest men will hide in caves and beg for death (Rev. 6:15-16).
When Christ said, "I am come in my father's name, and ye receive me not, if another will come in his own name him ye will receive" (John 5:44), He was speaking of the coming Antichrist (also called "the Beast," "the man of sin," the "abomination of desolation," etc.). This evil character is second only to Christ as to the amount of information the Bible gives him. Daniel tells us he will make a covenant with Israel (Dan. 9:27) for "seven weeks" (years) and then break it in the middle (at 42 months). Many Jews will think him to be their Messiah until he breaks the covenant and demands to be worshipped as the God of Heaven (2 Thes. 2:4). When the Jews refuse, the Beast (now Satan incarnate) will persecute them with a fierce vengeance. He will slaughter millions of them (and also Gentiles who refuse to worship his image or take his mark—666, Rev. 13), but 144,000 will be sealed by God and protected from harm.

Finally, after no more than seven years from the signing of the covenant, Jesus Christ will return and destroy the Beast and his armies at Armageddon. The few Jews that are left will then "look upon him whom they pierced" and receive Christ as their true Messiah and King. At that moment God will save them as a nation (Rom. 11:26). They will, after 20 centuries, have finally accepted Christ for WHO He really is—"God manifest in the flesh." Though the Tribulation will severely punish them, almost to extinction, God was forced to allow it to get them to receive the truth. Being "stiff-necked" (Acts 7:51) they would not accept it under any other means. Once they repent and receive Jesus Christ, they are then ready to receive the kingdom promised to their fathers Abraham and David.

Dispensationally, the Tribulation period is basically the Dispensation of the Law with a few added features. Since the Church will have left in the rapture, the parenthetical Dispensation of Grace will be gone along with the doctrines unique to it. Thus the nation of Israel will again be the main object of God's concern. There will be a temple in the Tribulation, sacrifices will be offered, and salvation will again have a Jewish ring to it. More on this in the following chapters.

The Palestinian Covenant, The New Covenant, and The Messianic Dispensation
1400 years before Christ, at the end of their 40 years of wandering in the wilderness, God made another covenant with Israel besides the one He made at Mt. Sinai. Called the Palestinian Covenant because they were about to enter the land of Palestine, the covenant contains a promise of what God will do for them when they repent of their sins and return to Him after a period of rebellion. God promised after He dispersed them among the nations as punishment for future disobedience (ultimately the rejection of Christ), He would regather and return them to their land after they repent. This covenant is closely linked with the Mosaic Covenant, and some say the two are joined together at the beginning of the Millennium. It is found in Deut. 30:1-10 and its specific elements are:
1. Israel's dispersion for disobedience (vs. 1). Though Israel is a nation today, more Jews live in New York City than in the land of Palestine. The bulk of the Jews on earth are still scattered and those in Israel do not possess all the land promised to them.
2. Their (foreknown) repentance while dispersed (vs. 2). This is during the Tribulation.
3. The return of the Lord (vs. 3). Christ will personally regather them after the Tribulation.
4. The restoration of all their land (vs. 5). Christ will give them the entire land grant promised to Abraham.
5. Their national conversion (vs. 6). All Israel will be saved (nationally) in a day (Rom. 11:26).
6. The judgment of their enemies and oppressors (vs. 7). The judgment of the nations (Matt. 25).
7. Their national blessing and prosperity (vs. 9).

This covenant comes into effect at the end of the Tribulation period when the remaining Jews see the return of the Lord Jesus Christ and receive Him as their Messiah. They will nationally repent and mourn for their sin of rejecting Him and admit before all their acceptance of Him as King. God will then, in Christ, forgive them and bless them as He desired to bless them from their beginning. He will give them all the land promised to their fathers and reign over them Himself from Jerusalem. Christ will judge their enemies at the Judgment of Nations (Matt. 25:31-46) and place the other nations under them in privilege and importance. Israel will be the premier nation on earth, and that purely by the promise and good pleasure of God. This covenant lasts, at least, until the end of the Millennium.

The New Covenant is called "new" because unlike the previous covenants it has not yet been made. It was promised in Jer. 31:31-37 and confirmed again in Heb. 8:7-13, but it has not yet been officially given to the nation of Israel. Again, after the Jews repent and receive Christ as their Messiah, God will formally establish this unconditional covenant with them. This is the "new testament" Jesus was referring to in Matt. 26:28 when He said, "for this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." Thus this covenant is based on the shed blood and atoning death of Jesus Christ.

Many today insist this New Covenant doctrinally applies to the present "church age," but this is another wresting of Scripture. By letting the Scriptures speak for themselves one can easily see that the New Covenant only applies doctrinally to "the house of Israel" and "the house of Judah" (Jer. 31:31, Heb. 8:8). It has nothing to do with the born again believer or the present Dispensation of Grace. The main thrust of this "new testament" is not the Church Age, but a future covenant with Israel based on the atoning death of the Jewish "testator," Jesus Christ. Of course, the salvation Christ bought with His blood is available to all today, Jew or Gentile, but as found in Jeremiah and Hebrews the New Covenant will apply only to Israel. The specifics of this covenant are (as found in Jeremiah 31):

1. God will put His laws in each individual's heart (vs. 33).
2. God will again be their God and Israel His people (vs. 33).
3. There will no longer be any preaching or witnessing because all Jews will know the Lord (vs. 34).
4. God will completely forgive them and remember their sin no more (vs. 34).
5. It is as permanent as day and night, the moon and stars, the waves of the sea, and the unmeasurable vastness of the earth and heavens (vs. 35-37).

This covenant is in effect from the beginning of the Millennium through to the gate of eternity.

The Messianic Dispensation (the Millennium), along with the New Covenant, will begin when the Palestinian Covenant is fulfilled at the end of the Tribulation. This dispensation is the "golden age" and "utopia" man today dreams about. It will be characterized by a perfect, righteous, and holy Ruler, universal righteousness, world peace, greatly reduced sickness and death, extended life span, gentleness and compatibility of wildlife, more cooperative earth for crops, perfect climate and environment, no random natural disasters, most of the curses lifted, little or no crime, and the binding of man's constant enemy, Satan. In the Millennium man will have everything he says today he wants, but will he fare any better in this dispensation than in the others? Hardly.

There are scores of passages in the Old Testament concerning this blessed period, and in the New Testament it is called the "kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 3:2, 5:3). The kingdom of heaven truly was "at hand" when Christ began His earthly ministry, but when the Jews rejected the King it was postponed until they were willing to receive Him. The "sermon on the mount" (Matt. ch. 5-7) will essentially be the Constitution of this kingdom and lay down the rules and principles of behavior required in it. During this 1000 year period, Christ will rule with a "rod of iron" and compel everyone to obey these principles and His will. Those who don't will be punished (Zech. 14:16-19).

With Satan bound in the bottomless pit and no longer able to influence nations or individuals for evil (Rev. 20:2), man will not be able to blame him for their sins. God will remove every form of outside negative influence during the Millennium, thus giving man every opportunity to do right. But even in this much sought after environment man will ultimately fail. It appears that during this period the people will begin to get tired of compelled obedience and of the righteous King in Jerusalem and rebel against Christ in their heart (Jer. 17:9). At the end of the 1000 years, God will release Satan from prison and give him access to the nations one last time. Very quickly Satan will organize a revolt against Christ and form a huge army to oust Him from Jerusalem. He will likely use pride to convince man he can do a better job "governing himself" (remember the Dispensation of Human Government?). The entire revolt is devoured by fire from Heaven and Satan's usefulness to God is over (Rev. 20:9).

It has taken God seven dispensations to do it, but He has proved his point. The problem with man is not his circumstances or misfortune, neither is it his environment or upbringing, man's number one problem is HIMSELF. Man by nature is evil, and no matter what kind of world or environment he is placed in he will remain evil. The only remedy is God must give him a new heart (2 Cor. 5:17).

During this time those who make up the body of Christ and have gone up in the rapture will reign with Christ from Jerusalem. They may act as His ambassadors to the nations enforcing His righteousness all over the earth. Nevertheless, each born again believer's old sinful nature will be literally and forever dead, leaving him with no capacity for sin. He will also have a supernatural, glorified body like Christ's (Phil. 3:21). Therefore, he cannot rebel with the world against Christ, he has already went through his testing period. The Jews and Gentiles that enter into the Millennium from the Tribulation, however, will still have only their natural bodies and the same old sinful Adamic nature all sinners are born with.

The New Heavens, The New Earth, and The New Jerusalem
After the rebellion at the end of the Millennium and the destruction of all those involved, God's series of testing periods for man will be over; the time for final judgment will have come. God will judge everyone who has not been judged before in a final, all encompassing judgment at the Great White Throne. Every saved person from Adam to the end of the Millennium who was not part of a group that was previously judged (like the Church), along with every person of every other age who died lost will be resurrected to stand before the Lord Jesus Christ and be judged according to their works. Those whose names are found in the "book of life" will be granted the privilege to enter into the New Heaven and New Earth. Those whose are not found in the book will be cast into the "lake of fire," there to spend eternity in torment (Rev. 20).
Many today claim there will be no saved people from any dispensation before the White Throne for judgment, but what about those saved in the Tribulation and Millennium? There is no other judgment to cover these people. We agree no saved person from the present Dispensation of Grace will be judged there because the "Judgment Seat of Christ" will cover them, but those saved in other dispensations must be judged at some time (Heb. 9:27), and this is the only judgment left. These people will have their names recorded in the book of life when they are saved; the Great White Throne Judgment will simply reveal their salvation, and their works, to all.

While the above judgment is in progress, God will be forming the New Heaven and the New Earth. He will do this by renovating the old heaven and earth with fire, melting the elements and purging them from the contamination of sinful man and preparing them for future habitation. The White Throne Judgment apparently occurs in the void of space.

After the judgment and renovation God will be ready to establish His final dispensational arrangement. Calling this arrangement a dispensation may not be entirely accurate because it has no clear ending. It appears to join with eternity. Furthermore, three covenants will still be in effect at this time, the Abrahamic, Davidic, and New Covenants; therefore, the nation of Israel will still be in existence (Isa. 66:22).

Including Israel there will be three distinct groups of people in this final arrangement. Israel will be made up of saved Jews from every dispensation except the Dispensation of Grace; the second group will be saved Gentiles from every dispensation except Grace; and the third group will be all those saved, Jew and Gentile, in the Dispensation of Grace—the Bride of Christ. The Bride of Christ is a fixed number that cannot increase or decrease after the rapture, but the other two groups can increase through childbirth.

Since there will be no more death (Rev. 21:4), the kingdom will increase and rapidly fill the earth and then spread throughout the heavens. Isaiah 9:7 says, "of the increase of his government there shall be no end," thus Christ's kingdom may expand from earth to the other planets, then to the stars and beyond towards infinity. After 7000 years of dealing with man, God has redeemed those who obeyed him and put them in a suitable condition to populate the universe. Out of billions and billions of people who have lived on earth, God has saved a relatively small remnant and these now love Him in return. With
them God may begin to populate the entire universe.

The Bride of Christ will dwell in New Jerusalem, a city prepared by Christ for her habitation that contains "many mansions." The city will descend from Heaven to earth and among other things contain the throne of God and the "tree of life" (Rev. 21). At this point God will have in some respects made a complete circle in His dealings with man. The Bible begins with man in a garden with the "tree of life," and after more than 7000 years of revealing many things to him, God has him again in a garden like setting with a tree that brings life.

Although there are other more minor divisions in the Bible one could mention, the eight major divisions we have outlined above are the ones most essential for understanding the Scriptures. If a believer will spend a little time in study and by noting these divisions keep the different issues separate and the alike together, he will be well on his way to understanding God's program for man and all creation as He has revealed it. Things that are different are not the same, and in the Bible the difference is often in the dispensations.

The Great Lesson
Of the many things God has showed man through the dispensations, the lesson that should stand out above the others is that man is a hopeless rebel, utter failure, and without hope without God. He is simply not capable of living up to God's righteous standard no matter how "enlightened" and able he may think he is.
Place him in a beautiful garden with everything he needs, including fellowship with God, a beautiful and compatible wife, the earth under his dominion, access to the Tree of Life, etc., and man will forsake it all and choose death. Leave him alone with his conscience to guide him and man will become so exceedingly wicked that he must be removed from the earth with a flood. Give him great and sure promises and man will flee them and speak lies in unbelieving fear. Make of him a chosen nation for God to speak through and dwell among, with His holy Law and priesthood, and man will abandon his God and worship dumb idols. Give him an eternal redemption from sin and hell, everlasting life, an indwelling Holy Spirit, the promise of a new body, a home in New Jerusalem, and birth him into God's own family making him His son, and man will repay his Savior with rebellion, worldliness, and indifference. Give him a perfect, uncursed earth, a cooperative environment, no Satan to tempt him, extended lifespan, and Jesus Christ himself to reign over him, and man will revolt and try to force Christ from His throne. All is clear. Man is a wicked, vile, evil, selfish, and vain creature, and apart from God he is utterly hopeless and bound for hell. The surest proof of this is God is near the last millennium of his dealings with man (now 6000 years along), and man collectively has not learned this ONE lesson yet!


In Christ: Phillip


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