I don't think this is a topic to be focused that much on but I would like to bring about some more positive sides of such occourances and allow people to see how not all such occourences are bad or to be debunked.---Falling Under the Power of the GodJonathan Edwards. His assessment was that a person may “fail bodily strength” due to fear of hell and the conviction by the Holy Spirit or due to a “foretaste of heaven.”John Wesley recognized falling to the ground as a manifestation from God, and records many such instances in his ministry. In fact, George Whitefield criticized Wesley for permitting the phenomena until it began happening in his own meetings.Finney’s ministry also frequently manifested fainting or swooning, what he called “falling under the power of God.” The Welsh revival of 1859 was accompanied by swooning as “waves of power often overwhelmed” people.Moody’s associate R.A. Torrey testified of people falling under the power of God due to conviction of sin.---My personal opinion on this occourence is that the all the references above speak of a phenomon that is drastly different from what is commonly called today 'falling under the power' or 'doing carpet time'. All of the references above from these men of God clearly stipulate that the reason for the falling down is that there was an extreme duress and conviction of sin upon the individual, this weight of guilt and the picture of the holiness and majesty is too much for the mind and body to bear. It was not paticularly a enuberating feeling that was synomonous with the presence of God. But rather it was the working of the Holy Spirit in the peoples hearts bowing them low under conviction of their ungodly state of affairs. 'On the ground crying out for mercy', usually these occourances would involve people shouting out under the state of conviction and the end result would be uncounciousness after a time of this condition and circumstances.
Physical Manifestations in Religious Excitments (falling under the power of God)
Amen to that.'On the ground crying out for mercy', usually these occourances would involve people shouting out under the state of conviction and the end result would be uncounciousness after a time of this condition and circumstances.In some churches shouting out while you are lying on the ground may get you some deliverance ministry.:-D It is very concerning that this does happen, even at times in our church. People only respond to what they see or are told. If you see it in a church and you are just born again, you will think that it is 'normal' unless you really search the word of God on that particular topic.My question is, how do you go about helping people out of this kind of thing? It is not a salvation issue, but a issue of the truth of Gods working, so in some minds it is not imporatant. Secondly what can one do, if you don't lead a church, but are part of one where this is 'pracised'?Zeke
Moravian leader Count Zinzendorf, who was open to supernatural movings of the Holy Spirit, witnessed a man falling into an “inspired fit, jerking and convulsing, and prophesying. Zinzendorf did not hesitate to reject the inspiration.” John Wesley’s counsel was: “Do not hastily ascribe things to God. Do not easily suppose dreams, voices, impressions, visions, or revelations to be from God. They may be from Him. They may be from Nature. They may be from the devil. Therefore believe not every spirit, but ‘try the spirits whether they be from God.’” A.B. Simpson, who believed in supernatural gifts and manifestations, nonetheless observed, “There have been many instances where [seeking for] the gift of tongues led the subjects and the audiences in to the wildest excesses and were accompanied with voices and actions more closely resembling wild animals than rational beings, impressing the unprejudiced observers that it was the work of the devil.” Paul Rader, pastor of Moody Memorial Church and President of the C&MA after Simpson’s death, writes of casting out a demon from a man who came down the aisle of Moody Church barking like a dog. Pentecostal leader Charles Parham also described as demonic manifestations of barking like a dog, braying like a donkey, and crowing like a rooster, and contortions and fits. Wesley warned of a two-fold danger: 1) to regard them too much, as essential to revival, 2) to regard them too little, condemning them altogether.
I know at the church I attend, you see people who after being prayed for, start to cry and weep, then they sometimes as it was put 'do carpet time', you can normally work out who is faking and who is real.
There is nothing strange or unusual about these manifestations in seasons of Revival. They have always and will always accompany moves of the Spirit. We should always use discernment. These things DO NOT verify wether it is a true move of the Spirit, nor do they show that it is not a true move of the Spirit.If you read "Revival in India" (which documents the movings of the Spirit under the ministry of Pandita Ramabai) by Helen S. Deyer you will find some of the wildest manifestations you'll ever read about. While some are due to conviction of sin, it is as Johnathon Edwards said, also sometimes due to a foretaste of heaven. There are times that the greatness of God simply overwhelms you. This is not unusual, and certainly not to be feared. There are many in Pentecostal and Charismatic circles (of which I am a credentialed minister thru - so I criticize myself as well) who are just always searching for another "buzz". They travel to all the hot spots to try do "Carpet Time" on everyones carpet just to say they did it. Now if their hunger is genuine, then I will let the Lord deal with them. However, our focus should never be simply to get goosebumps, to have an esoteric experience etc... We should be longing for a touch from the Master so that we might preach the glorious Gospel of Jesus Christ with power and unction. If one falls on the floor and wakes up transformed - and they possibly do things while on the floor that my mind does not understand - than who in the world am I to criticize. I often think of the ministry of Heidi and Rolland Bakker. This was a woman who was greatly touched by God at Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship about 10 years ago. Many have criticized Toronto for allowing fleshly manifestations to take place -and they probably have. This woman was almost useless for three weeks as she was under the power of God. We can criticize that saying, "God would never make someone lay around useless for three weeks." Yet if you look at their ministry and still have the AUDACITY to make such an uneducated, and prideful comment, than you should probably lock yourself in the secret place and seek God. Johnathon Edwards wife had a similar experience to that of Heidi Bakker.Burning,Jeff
There are many in Pentecostal and Charismatic circles (of which I am a credentialed minister thru - so I criticize myself as well) who are just always searching for another "buzz". They travel to all the hot spots to try do "Carpet Time" on everyones carpet just to say they did it. Now if their hunger is genuine, then I will let the Lord deal with them. However, our focus should never be simply to get goosebumps, to have an esoteric experience etc...But brother think about what you just said if people can ABUSE this presence of God and use it for their own selfish means? then what an awful sinful place this is for a person to be found. I believe as much as the socerer wanting to wield the power of the Holy Spirit for his own end. But the scriptures clearly state that God is not willing to be used! He will NOT be used by these type of men. So what you said above nullifies the potential of it being genuine in my mind brother and is something that not only scares but has grieved my heart and I am sure the heart of God.I often think of the ministry of Heidi and Rolland Bakker. This was a woman who was greatly touched by God at Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship about 10 years ago.What I have seen from her ministry and life and teachings scares me. Her head continually convulses to one side and see makes a sound like: "whoooaaaa" all the time, this I find disturbing if the Holy Spirit makes a like that. Her teachings as far as I have heard them make me cring over the lack of scripture properly given.Johnathon Edwards wife had a similar experience to that of Heidi Bakker.That is an unfair corrialtion and you cannot simply do that. There are volumes of difference and truly that is a comparision between the genuine and spurious.
There was one time i was prayed over with my husband in the conference i truely gave my heart to the Lord. I was so aware of my sin and wanted forgiveness so badly. My heart burned within me and as i was being prayed over with my husband (who at that time was my fiance) we both fell symaltainiously. I can't remember the moment it happened, it was like the Holy Spirit just touched me. I believe that moment was genuine because of the sudden awareness of my sinfull self. But what was strange (i should't really say strange) was that i felt someone's arms catch me and as i went around after the meeting trying to find out who caught me to thank them i was told no one caught me! I am absolutly 101% sure someone caught me.But like i said that was a one off. I hate it when someone who is praying for you places their hand on your forehead and tries to force you to the ground, something that happens a lot!! I sometimes feel uncomfortable when i see people so easily fall to the carpet and coats are being thrown over them. People who i've seen fall to the carpet only an hour before are back to their usual selfs drinking coffee like what happened before was just a normal routine experience. Some people almost perform for an audience if you know what i mean. It's these moments that make my spirit cringe. What really shocked me (and my husband) was one day as i was flicking through the t.v channels to find a christian radio station i saw a preacher wave his hand across a large congregation and they all fell symiltainiously as if hypmotised (excuse my poor spelling). Whats that all about? I don't beleive there is anything unusual about these manifestastions in seasons of revival as already mentioned but not in the ways described above as if it was the norm. Being touched by the Holy spirit himself in such a way is not an everyday experience. Being filled with the spirit as you read the word ect yes definatly.I know i have to be carefull what i say because it's a personnal experience and discernment is needed.In his love, Geraldine
also believed that white people worshipping and holding hands with black people was wrong and thought such was apostate behavior. To his dying day Charles Parham was an unrepentant racist, even becoming a full-fledged member of the KKK.Charles Parham was also a proponent of "British-Israelism", who's modern day theology is "Christian Identity", the heresy of the white hate groups.I cringe everytime Charles parham is mentioned as a "Pentecostal leader".
Charles Parham was also a proponent of "British-Israelism", who's modern day theology is "Christian Identity", the heresy of the white hate groups.Brother this is a different discussion. I would consider if you ever look to men much you will be discouraged, but if you look to Jesus then you will be satisfied. As to the topic matter I think its important not to accept everything that is popularized as "spiritual" in evangelical or charismatic circles but have a firm grounding in scripture and church history to judge and approve these things.
Neilgin1, I've learned that Jonathan Edwards actually owned slaves. John Calvin had people executed, and Martin Luther was anti-Semitic. So do we discount the good they brought forth as well? (Oh yeah, and should we throw out Proverbs, Ecc., and Song of Songs, because of how Solomon ended up?)
I've learned that Jonathan Edwards actually owned slaves. John Calvin had people executed, and Martin Luther was anti-Semitic. So do we discount the good they brought forth as well? (Oh yeah, and should we throw out Proverbs, Ecc., and Song of Songs, because of how Solomon ended up?)Brother Todd, I hope you are able to realize the truth of God and seek after truth that costs.. "it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks."
Not sure about Charles Fox Parham, as he still preached and were 'friends' with William Seymour.
I find this bit of Scripture from Hebrews is most helpful:"Therefore holy brothers, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, the apostle and high priest whom we confess".Hebrews 3:1That said, whether or not that is a "different discussion", this is the point that I wished to forward, that I find it most distressing that a racist and sodomite like Parham is bandied about as a "Pentecostal leader".To be a pentecostal has a VERY firm grounding in Holy Scripture AND in church history. Brother Gaston Cashwell , an early white pentocostal leader repented of his racism AT AZUSA, and received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, Parham did not.
To be a pentecostal has a VERY firm grounding in Holy Scripture AND in church history. To be a Christian has a VERY firm grounding in Holy Scripture AND in church history.
Neilgin1,First of all, you didn't address my questions. Not that you have to, but I would appreciate it very much.Second, how is that Scripture relevant to your post on Parham? Does critisizing Parham help us fix our eyes on Jesus? Or are you just saying that it is wise to keep our eyes fixed on Jesus and not people and this is an example why?Third, what's with calling Parham a sodomite? I've never heard that charge before. What evidence do you have of that? (edit)
I'm going to choose my words very carefully because Greg is very ready to delete a post of mine that does not "have the right spirit" , which is what he told me in a letter of admonishment.To read of the relationship between Seymour and Parham the scholarship is there, forgive me, I am not near my library at this moment. As for the other, you can utilize google.They doctrinal error of Parham in latter years, preaching British-Israelism is a very serious strain of apostasy, and one I am personally very sensitive of. So sensitive, that I really don't care to read of the teachings of Martin Luther. I was raised a Jew, and I cannot tell you how many Jews have been kept from salvation knowledge of Jesus Christ, because our teachers would say, "you want to see the heart of Protestantism, read Martin Luther anti-semitic comments.so they read Martin Luther, and they don't see Jesus, they see the vituperative bile of Martin Luther. They don't see the ultimate justification and sanctification of the Cross, they don't see the Beauty of a faith that encompases ALL PEOPLE, a ministry of reconciliation that transcends all the partisanship and human roadblocks to the love of God for His people....and when I say "His people", I mean ALL of creation.Do you know what I mean?
Neilgin1, I do think I know what you mean regarding Luther. However, I do appreciate the great good that he accomplished as well, though I can understand why this would be more difficult from your position. The good he did doesn't excuse his errors and the consequences of those are very disturbing, but his accomplishments are valid nonetheless. The same goes for the other people I mentioned (which you haven't commented on) including Edwards, Calvin, and Solomon. If you do get near your library sometime I would be interested to hear more specifics about the literature you've studied regarding Parham/Seymour, etc. As for the sodomite charge, I don't consider google a legitimate reference. But just for the heck of it I did a quick check and what I found is quite interesting. My key word was "'Charles Parham' + sodomite". Almost every catch led to a supposed quotation from R.A. Torrey which spoke of the Pentecostal movement as "emphatically not of God, and founded by a Sodomite." I checked some other google sources and apparantly Parham was arrested for “sexual indiscretions” with boys. But the charges were dropped. Now if it is in fact true that the charges were dropped, I hope R.A. Torrey, you, and whoever else has ever called Parham a sodomite has repented. It would be one thing to say that of someone who admitted to it, and even in that case it would questionable to be so harsh with the name-calling and hold them to it if they repent, but in this case it seems completely out of line. So if google is the best source you have for that Sodomite claim, or the words of R.A. Torrey (which seem to be illegitimate anyway), I urge you to reconsider your position and repent.
I don't think this is a topic to be focused that much on but I would like to bring about some more positive sides of such occourances and allow people to see how not all such occourences are bad or to be debunked.I know that we can't focus on this topic too much although i can't help but feel we have some what strayed off the topic in question. All i want to know is others opinions on this subject. My pastor is often 'doing carpet time' and is so touched with the spirit. I on the other hand have only experienced it once (see previous post), Does that mean im not being touch by the spirit as often or in the mannor i should? These are just thought provoking questions and i would be interested in the responses. It's something always expected in our church and because it's the only one i have ever been to i would like to know how others feel on this topic. :-) In his love, Geraldine.
I'm going to choose my words very carefully because Greg is very ready to delete a post of mine that does not "have the right spirit" , which is what he told me in a letter of admonishment.I see the only reason to share this with the public is that you are upset or thinking my words were unappropriate towards the manner and way you use the forum. Personally I am not seeing much grace in your posts you are quick to cut down and condemn men of God that many on these forums admire and have been blessed by. The main purpose of these forums are to edify the body of Christ. I hope that is your intent in being on the forums if its not then you should question "why am I here posting and spending my time?". I am sorry to come down hard on you but there is quite abit of vested interest in the forums by many long-standing members and I am trying to assure that this stays a plausible resource to be on this site.To read of the relationship between Seymour and Parham the scholarship is there, forgive me, I am not near my library at this moment. As for the other, you can utilize google.Thats really not good enough, I think it would be better to not say comments unless backed by substantial proof. Even if proof is there is it worth while to expose or is it picking at something that is trying to ruin the fruits of the labour of a man of God.
geraldine,I know this thread has got off topic. But I felt it was important to clarify a few things that were said. So I know that I kind of have perpetuated this little rabbit trail but I think it is almost to the end. It's my understanding that falling is no indicator of spirituality. I know of well-respected leaders in the charismatic movement, who are constantly in an environment like you, but they never fall down. It's really not a big deal either way. But you want to remain open to let God be God in your life. I like the advise that Randy Clark once gave to a group of us before ministering. THere was a mix of more charismatic and more conservative people in the group, many of which (I think), had never experienced anything like this before. He said something like, "Don't try to fall over, but don't try to stand either." Basically his point was, don't even think or worry about that, just focus on God. Just as it seems silly to try and fall over, it seems just as silly to try to stay standing.
It's my understanding that falling is no indicator of spirituality. I know of well-respected leaders in the charismatic movement, who are constantly in an environment like you, but they never fall down. It's really not a big deal either way. But you want to remain open to let God be God in your life. Yes its nice to get back on topic ;-)The problem I see with using any information from the charismatic movement as fact or truth is that from a reading of the book of Acts you see no-one falling down or a mentioning of falling down. The only places people fall down (off the top of my head) are when demons are being excercised and they rent the human so he convulses and foams at the mouth, or Annais and Sapirha fall dead when they lie to the Holy Spirit, Or Saul falls to the ground off his horse when a bright light of the glory of Jesus appears (taking the rest of the bible accounts when people meet God I would say he fell prostrate, meaning face forward and his mind was fully consious being able to understand and speak intelligably back to Jesus and he got right up afterwards but needed help because he was blinded by the light), off the top of my head I am not sure there are more accounts of this falling down whether good or bad. I think going back to scripture for a foundation is the best place dont you?
Amen Brother Greg!!I can truly say that in every post of yours I can see a spirit of meekness and humility, but at the same time of strong truth!!THis is a very, very big issue. And I dont think we should talk to little about it. If these phenomina is not of God, then where is it from?? If it is of the devil, then we see the great deciever again working right over the world decieving millions. People these days look only for the "touch" of the Spirit which come through phisical penomina!! If these are experienced, then you are filled with the Spirit, are you not?? But if this is not the Spirit of God, then what spirit are this?? THen those who might not even be saved or never before had any form of repentance now live in an illusion of being filled with the Spirit because of some strange phenominan that took place!!THen as Geraldine stated earlier, as she, there are now many others who dont experience these phenomina and now they start to worry! Is there something wrong with me then if I dont experience these things?? Well, what are we then looking for?? THe Spirit of God or the experience?? Does the Bible not say that we live by faith and not by experience or feeling. The feelings and experiences may come, but that should be in the shadow of faith. Paul taught hard on this issue and said that a service should always be ordered and should build any person who enters the service. We also should look at the Word and see if we can find these phenomina there!! If we cant, well I whould be very very carefull not to take things and make it out to be from God if I Dont read of it anywhare in the Word. O, John also fell at the feet of Jesus as a dead man face to the ground, but when he was commanded to rise up he immedietly obeyed. This was of fear!!Seek the Lord always and keep the eyes on Jesus.Love in ChristJanus
Greetings in the Wondeful Name of Our Saviour Jesus Christ.The topic which has been raised, i believe, is one we should not just delve into but we, as our brother has already said, must spend quality time in Gods Word in order to find the truth.My view and belief on this particular subject is if the Spirit of God descends on our Lord (who was fully man aswell as fully God) as we read in Matthew chapter 3:13-17 (ppMark 1:9-11,Luke 3:21-23,John 1:29-34) then surely He would've also fallen. I believe just as you do that the Spirit of God is the same yesterday, today and forever. So if the Holy Ghost did descend upon our Lord then why is there no record of Him falling in the New Testament. Again we see that one of the fruits of the Spirit is self-control (Gal 5:23). I have to say that this fruit, in my opinion, is not visible within this type of movement.But i, in His love do pray that you would also search His scriptures, to develop a very solid view on this subject that you may bless others having been blessed by the Almighty.Please feel free to add your own thoughts to this very shallow opinion of mine. I do not wish to push my view onto others infact i detest the very thought of this. But please do forgive me if i have come across to harsh.In JesusMoriel
So if the Holy Ghost did descend upon our Lord then why is there no record of Him falling in the New Testament. Again we see that one of the fruits of the Spirit is self-control (Gal 5:23). I have to say that this fruit, in my opinion, is not visible within this type of movement.Dear brother your comments are not coming across harsh but are valid and said in very good manner. Its a thought to consider much that our Lord Jesus who was full of the Holy Ghost showed utmost control of his body and mind over his ministry, striving against sin and temptations. His life was the utmost view of what self-control and other fruits of the spirit are, what a good truth to meditate on in pertaining to this subject matter. thank you brother.
Well, what are we then looking for?? THe Spirit of God or the experience?? There are some really good points coming across which i had not thought of before, this is good! But i have always thought that too many are only out for the experience. Im sorry to offend anyone with this statement but i've often felt uneasy seeing this manifestation in the church. If it is of God i pray he will show me and forgive me for feeling the way i do. I DO feel touched to see people collapse to their knees in repentance, awe and fear as this is only to be expected. But i, in His love do pray that you would also search His scriptures, to develop a very solid view on this subject that you may bless others having been blessed by the Almighty.AMEN!
Rather than focus on those I do not admire, Greg, please allow me to forward a list of those Godly men I do admire, and who's ministries have been a blessing to me:John Sung"One of the most unique prophetic men of the Twentieth Century was the revivalist, John Sung. He operated as a true apostolic evangelist, with countless signs and wonders following his ministry. Unlike any other modern saint that I have ever studied, John Sung epitomizes that rare combination of New Testament purity and power. His life and ministry were powerfully marked by a genuine prophetic anointing. He was the embodiment of a burning zeal, unquenchable passion and an unrelenting fearlessness".(http://www.watchword.org/smithers/ww51a.html)David Brainerd:"It was a short life: twenty-nine years, five months and nineteen days. Only eight of those years as a believer, and only four of those as a missionary. Why has Brainerd's life made the impact that it has? One obvious reason is that Jonathan Edwards took the Diaries and published them as a Life of Brainerd in 1749. But why has this book never been out of print? Why did John Wesley say, "Let every preacher read carefully over the 'Life of Brainerd (p. 3)'"? Why was it written of Henry Martyn that "perusing the life of David Brainerd, his soul was filled with a holy emulation of that extraordinary man; and after deep consideration and fervent prayer, he was at length fixed in a resolution to imitate his example"? (see note 2) Why did William Carey regard Edwards' Life of Brainerd as a sacred text? Why did Robert Morrison and Robert McCheyne of Scotland and John Mills of America and Frederick Schwartz of Germany and David Livingston of England and Andrew Murray of South Africa and Jim Elliot of modern America look upon Brainerd with a kind of awe and draw power from him the way they and countless others did (p. 4)?The answer for me is that Brainerd's life is a vivid, powerful testimony to the truth that God can and does use weak, sick, discouraged, beat-down, lonely, struggling saints, who cry to him day and night, to accomplish amazing things for his glory."I prefer the "Life of Brainerd", but the above excerpt is from a wonderful paper by John Piper(http://www.desiringgod.org/library/biographies/90brainerd.html)these are just two of many men whom I admire in the faith. Among many others in Scripture, Jeremiah stands out in the Old Testament and Paul in the New.Jeremiah, because God allowed him to see the new covenant which Jeremiah wrote of in the 31st chapter of his book, verses 31 thru 34. Actually the whole Book of Consolation (chapters 30 thru 33) is most edifying to read in regards to what the Messianic times will bring to God's church. and God used Paul to breath life into this New Covenant and give it shape so that we could apply it. Greg, you might feel that my posts lack grace, and that I am "quick to cut down and condemn men of God that many on these forums admire and have been blessed by", but if memory serves me correctly the only two I REPUDIATED were George W. Bush and Parham. (I also indicated that AS A JEW, Martin Luther's infamous anti-semitic writings ruin EVERYTHING, for me, that issues from his pen. If you can't understand that, than please ask God to give you the sensitivity, to ascertain how many pogroms were generated by this virulent hatred masqurading as a "word")You accuse me of lacking grace, but was it not you who refered to the U.S. Presidential John Kerrey in juxtaposition with George Bush as thus:"I don't think it matters that much over small issues with Bush vs. Kerry. The main thing here is that Bush is a godly man seeking the Lord and Kerry is an infidel trying to win over all sides of peoples to get into the presidential spot. Christians pray!"An infidel? Is that grace? Is a lying spirit in the mouth of a leader the fruit of a godly man?I am on this site because I hunger for Christian fellowship, as I have also been on www.fireonthealtar.comthere you can listen to my offerings either on the main page or in the compilation section. Give a listen to "sheath the sword", or "shake the nation", "as we are one", "in my mother's womb". Every one of those compilations was built after time on my knees seeking the Mind of Christ, just as these posts are.What is happening today in the white evangelical church of North America these days is both sickening and exhilirating.Sickening because the flesh and the devil is seducing the Bride of Christ with the promise of wealth and a place at the seat of imperial power. Believers have begun to worship the idol of patriotism, wrapping themselves in the flag. You know I speak the truth. There are those who know I speak the truth, and there are those who are angered by what I say.I fear only God, not man and his ways.I have no idea what you speak of when you refer to "vested interest", and this site remaining a "plausible resource". I do not know what you speak of. All I was doing was speaking my heart.I'm sorry if that doesn't tickle your ear.I do love what you have done with the website, nobody offers such a wealth of audio teachings. My prayer is that God bless you always.in Jesus' love,Neil
The Primitive Methodist revival of the 19th century had many instances of people falling to the ground and crying for mercy. As has been said this certainly happened during the original Methodist revivals of the 18th century.I think there is a discernable difference between these historical events and those of early Pentecostalism and the Toronto Blessing era (and the bridge between them). The difference is that the experience is consciously 'mediatated' in the Pentecostal/Toronto Blessing pattern. It is 'produced' by key preachers who were able to 'zap' individuals or congregations either by touch or triggers of some other kind. This is much more ominous.As regards the Lord Jesus not succombing to such an experience, I'm not sure that we can use Him as a straight comparison. He never seems to have been in 'awe' of His Father as we need to be and the frequent 'Abba-Father' is indication of this. I cannot recall Him 'worshipping' the Father. Neither is there evidence of involuntary prostration in the Acts.I wonder if this would be a suitable topic for the famour Alliance position; seek not- forbid not?
Quote:"The problem I see with using any information from the charismatic movement as fact or truth is that from a reading of the book of Acts you see no-one falling down or a mentioning of falling down."I'm not sure what you mean by "using... information from the charasmatic movement as fact or truth." I don't know if anyone is trying to do prove anything in this case except that you can't conclusively prove it is right or wrong. If we are to use Scripture as our foundation, we are going to have to leave this topic open. We cannot be conclusive to the point of calling it wrong or right. It seems that attempting to be absolutely conclusive on this matter could only be achieved by going beyond the Scriptures (and into man's reasoning). This seems to be the approach you are venturing into but even in this case the logic is falty because you would be using an argument from silence (i.e. "________ is wrong because it's not mentioned). That's like saying choirs are wrong because they are not mentioned in Scripture. Quote:"The difference is that the experience is consciously 'mediatated' in the Pentecostal/Toronto Blessing pattern. It is 'produced' by key preachers who were able to 'zap' individuals or congregations either by touch or triggers of some other kind."Yes it seems it is sometimes mediated by people but not only "leaders." I've also seen people fall with no human mediation.It seems that a lot (if not most) of Christian ministry is mediated by people. Does this aspect of our topic here concern you? Do you think they would say it is "produced" and that they are able to "zap" people by their own power? Quote:"seek not- forbid not"Yeah, I like that.
It seems that a lot (if not most) of Christian ministry is mediated by people. Does this aspect of our topic here concern you?Do you think they would say it is "produced" and that they are able to "zap" people by their own power? 1. I think we have got into the habit of regarding 'ministry' as something extra to preaching etc. So that people now 'come forward for ministry' and 'after the meeting there will be a time of ministry'. The word has been hijacked. :-? Clearly God uses people and always will do, but I genuinely doubt that there are many today who could cope with the adulation seen towards Peter when just his passing shadow healed the sick. The reputation gained by the ability to produce 'phenomena' is surely a sign of the decadence of much current Christian experience.The 'laying on of hands' was clearly a NT fact of life, but this expectation that an individual can 'produce the goods' is something different.2. I am reluctant to say where I think the power is coming from, but I am profoundly disturbed that it can be accessed with such ease. Kathryn Kuhlman was reported, by her official biographer, to have used 'slaying in the spirit' as a tool to control others on the platform who became too prominent. To me, this control of others and other powers sounds more like magic than genuine faith.
What do we say when people fall in an open and demonstrative way and then there is no real demonstration of Spiritual change? Granted maybe there was an emotional issue that God needs to touch, etc.; however, what do we say when all manor of experiences seem to do little if any real positive good? What if a person 'goes out in the Spirit' and gets up acting like the devil when they get out to the parking lot? Should we not question what happened? As a Classical Pentecostal since I was a child that stuff has always bothered me. God Bless
What if a person 'goes out in the Spirit' and gets up acting like the devil when they get out to the parking lot? Should we not question what happened? As a Classical Pentecostal since I was a child that stuff has always bothered me.It bothers me too, but then it bothers me when someone changes for the better without choosing it. Is imposed holiness really holiness? I have heard lots of testimonies to this. 'Look at the fruit', they cry. but it bothers me if there was no preceding repentance. It bothers me when apparent grace is bolted on to unconfessed unrighteousness.
I have heard lots of testimonies to this. 'Look at the fruit', they cry. but it bothers me if there was no preceding repentance. It bothers me when apparent grace is bolted on to unconfessed unrighteousness.Amen. I became a bit unpopular in some Pentecostal minds when I said at the beginning of the year that I believed it was time to fall forward on our faces and repent instead of backwards. So what shall we make of these things? God Bless,-Robert
Amen again. I've been at this type of service as well. If there's no real conviction of sin and no subsequent repentance, what does this amount to?Is it purely an emotional response? I'm looking at this in the context of my own life and am not trying to judge anyone else but if it's really the Holy Spirit there should be real conviction of sin. How we respond to it is up to us.
Rember---Jesus was very God and had the Spirit without measure.Being God he needed not experience the things we must needs experience in many ways.There are excesses and misuses even in the things of God, but that doesn't make them false or even wrong.There was a point in Jesus' ministry where his mother and brethren came to get him saying he was beside himself, you can conclude something outward was happening there that compelled them to try to remove Jesus' , however the Holy Spirit did not deem it nessary for us to have specific knowledge on that or many other things.Maybe God doesn't what us to limit him or place him in a box but in all things learn to discern through prayer and communion with Jesus the things we see that happen in the church. God bless.
There was a point in Jesus' ministry where his mother and brethren came to get him saying he was beside himself, you can conclude something outward was happening there that compelled them to try to remove Jesus' , however the Holy Spirit did not deem it nessary for us to have specific knowledge on that or many other things.That in no way makes Jesus to be like some of the leaders in movements where the church service is like a circus. Jesus also is our litmus text for ourselves as Christians. We are to walk and do things like Jesus did. We are to express ourselves through the fruits of the Spirit as He did.1 John 2:6 - He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
John 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they were written...............It's interesting that the movings of God---not the slight of man---become a point of contention.There are misuses but that doesn't mean there isn't a true move.Many times the Lord responds to the person seeking and not through the preacher even though it appears as though he is using that person.Fruit?Yes , we are to bear fruit , but that doesn't have anything to do with the movings of God in meetings.Fruit is what the world is to see in us.
we are to bear fruit , but that doesn't have anything to do with the movings of God in meetings.Fruit is what the world is to see in us.What are the fruits of the spirit? isnt one self-control? another peace? The apostle paul in 1 Corinthians explicity states that christian fellowships where the Holy Spirit is present will be under control, for God is not an author of confusion. You cannot contrast what happens supposedly under some ministries in our day and what the scriptures show as ideal christian fellowship and worship.
Amen Greg,The only distinction that I would make is that it is fruit of the Spirit. There are no fruits. Only one fruit and everything has to be connected together. In other words we must have each thing in order to have the fruit "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.""And when he (i.e. the Holy Ghost) is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment."Whenever I'm a gathering, I look for the evidence of the convicting power of the Holy Spirit in my own heart and those around me. There is no greater miracle than passing from death to life and that's my hope and prayer wherever I'm at.
I will not defend ministries I don't know, however I believe a careful study of Pauls preaching will lead you to conclude that sometimes what we see as decent and in order isn't what God calls decent and in order.To many examples to list throughout the entire bible let alone the very life of Jesus.I believe what Paul is addressing here is that all things must be done in thier turn so as not to give the appearence of mass confusion. A careful study of revivals and church history and thier movements will help with this falling out buisness.John Wesley even had similar experiences happen in his meetings.But againg let state---In America----much of what we see is a gross misuse of something that does in fact exsist, where men ---for what ever reason--let God be thier judge----seem to manipulate the people and the moves of the Spirit.But I know personally people who have be touched by God healed of incurable illnesses only to later find out the preacher was in sin.God still responds to his childrens cry even though it may appear he's using a ministry or preacher.
Quote:"The 'laying on of hands' was clearly a NT fact of life, but this expectation that an individual can 'produce the goods' is something different."I don't know what you mean by "produce the goods." I don't know if any one of these people would make that claim. I think it might be something more like demonstrate the goods. The power of God flowing through a a person. It seems that this is more of the kind of expectation (faith) that we need- for is it not ultimately faith in the power of God?Acts 19:11"And God was performing extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul" Quote:" I am reluctant to say where I think the power is coming from, but I am profoundly disturbed that it can be accessed with such ease.Kathryn Kuhlman was reported, by her official biographer, to have used 'slaying in the spirit' as a tool to control others on the platform who became too prominent. To me, this control of others and other powers sounds more like magic than genuine faith."Who said it could be easily accessed? We don't know what individuals have gone through to find that place with God where He can trust them with higher realms of authority and power.Remember what Elisha did when he was mocked by those youth? How Paul dealt with Elymas? It seems there are places in God that we no little, if anything, of. I think it's a very wise move, and in yours and everybody else's best self-interest, not to judge these things outright but to tread very carefully here. We don't know exactly how God's government functions in these times, but it seems He has always delgated authority to key individuals whom He has chosen. This specific case of Kathryn Khulman might just be one modern example of this. Quote:"It bothers me too, but then it bothers me when someone changes for the better without choosing it. Is imposed holiness really holiness? I have heard lots of testimonies to this. 'Look at the fruit', they cry. but it bothers me if there was no preceding repentance. It bothers me when apparent grace is bolted on to unconfessed unrighteousness." Why does this bother you? I don't think you would put it this way outright (maybe because it's not right), but are you basically saying you want people to have to earn it more? Even so, let's not forget the humility and desperation for God it takes for most people to enter into this kind of experience (to choose to let go and let God control). Have you considered that?
Brothers and Sisters,I must say that I greatly respect both arguments that are being presented in this post. I respect one side because I see within it a great zeal, and a great desire for truth. In a day when truth is being replaced by "personal revelation" and ones own spin on scripture this is certainly refreshing to see. We need more men like Brother Greg in our day whom "zeal for the house of God hath consumed". We need more men and women who will tie themselves to the mast of God's word and not be moved by the siren songs of worldliness, or of popular Christian opinion. I greatly respect that.On the other hand I see a group who have no doubt had a genuine life changing experience with God. Yet, perhaps this experience came with "phenomena" or "manifestations" that to the human mind seem unbliblical, useless, and show a lack of self-control. Instead of brothers and sisters in the Lord rejoicing with you, they (as you see it) condemn you and say what you received was not of God. I can relate to this. It is more than understandable to react to such criticism. I see that both sides are GREATLY hungry for the genuine moving of the Spirit but view it from a slightly different angle. We must not demonize the other side. If we feel that one is in error, instead of using words that tear down, let us lift that individual before God in prayer. Let us first, however, examine our own hearts before God.As to the topic at hand... I do think we must take caution on both accounts. We must not be, as some are in the habit of doing, always seeking a greater manifestation. Nor should we be always condemning, or trying to find the flaws in, anything that looks abnormal to us. It has been rightly said in this post that SCRIPTURE, not EXPERIENCE, must be the litmus test for any of these experiences. The scriptures, however, are very clear that the way to test any spiritual movement is not with the eyes, or with the ears. This was one of the characteristics Jesus' demonstrated (Isaiah 11:3) and is a fruit of the Spirit given in the Old Testament. In other words (as it applies to this topic only) we must not simply look at the phenomena (sp?), or listen to the chatter and make our judgements. The scriptural standards for wether something is fresh fire, false fire, or fleshly fire - wether something comes from above, below, or in between - does not necessarily include historical or scriptural precedence. In other words, we do not necessarily have to see that a particular phenomenon occured in scripture in order to know it was God. Certainly if we were to be fair and honest, we would all have to admit that there are things which have taken place in revivals that we all admire, that have had no scriptural precedent. (Was that a run-on :) I can give examples in a follow-up post if anyone wishes. Jesus himself promised that those who believed on Him would do greater things than He. If they were greater than the works of Jesus, meaning things He Himself never did, than where was the scriptural or historical precedence? Now I am certainly not suggesting that physical manifestations are the "greater works" spoken of by Jesus. I'm simply trying to show that there does not necessarily need to be a precedent in order to prove whether or not something is of God. If I am in error, or our of line with scripture, someone please correct me. (That was not said with sarcasm by the way:)So what then is to be our test? How are we to know? Jesus clealy tells us that we will know the true from the false by the fruits that they bear. That is the test. There are people I have known that have "manifested", fallen to the floor, spoken in tongues, prophesied etc... Yet I never saw what I would have called "fruit" in their lives. On the other hand, I know very well men and women who have never experienced any of these things and yet they have fruit everywhere. (I have seen the reverse be true as well) Yet I will be no mans judge. I have seen people "manifest" in ways that to the natural mind was bothersome, yet the fruits of this experience was genuine repentance and a transformation in life. We must focus on fruit rather than on surface level judgements that our eyes and ears make. In my first post on this thread I made a reference to Heidi and Rolland Bakkers ministry in Mozambique Africa. My basic comment was that she was touched greatly by God at the Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship Church. I then went on to say that if one looks at the FRUITS of their ministry they must no doubt come to the conclusion that they are doing the work of God. This comment was met by a very well-meaning, yet (to me) a very dissapointing comment. It was stated that Heidi Baker does not preach with much scriptural depth, and that she has strange manifestations. I will be the first to admit that I have heard her preach and was not sure what to make of this woman. She did indeed have my eyes saw as "strange manifestations". I listened to part of her message and my wife and I left the service before she finished. It was only later as I carefully examined the fruit of their ministry that I saw my error. My original comment was an encouragement to "Check the fruit", not the manifestations. A tree could to our eyes look ugly and unappealing, yet could be loaded with fruit. On the other hand a tree could look beatiful to the eyes and produce nothing. If you look at the Bakkers (just one example) you may see a tree that looks strange to your eyes. Yet the fruit of 4,000 churches planted, over 4,000 trained pastors, each pastor taking at least 1-10 orphans into his/her home, thousands of orphans being cared for, the sick (genuinely) healed, the lost saved, the gospel preached etc.... I could go on. In light of this, I say, Who cares if she shakes laughs or falls, just keep doing the work of God.Do not get me wrong, I am not a proponent of fleshly Charismania. Nor do I label everything that shakes or barks as being of God. I hunger and thirst for the genuine moving of the Spirit that gives Glory and Honor to Jesus Christ and results in a life lived Godward. Friends let us take care that we do not accept everything that comes down the pipeline. And let us also not reject everything we do not understand.God Bless,Jeff An Experience of God that costs nothing is worth nothing, and does nothing. -Leonard Ravenhill
Just a quick follow-up concerning the fruit of self-control...Self-control is speaking of the God-given ability to abstain from the lusts of the flesh, the lusts of the eyes, and the pride of life. It is speaking of the ability to abstain from indulging in selfish sinful behavior. For the Spirit is called the Spirit of Self-Discipline. (2 Timothy 1:7) I do not believe this is speaking of bodily manifestations. For we see many times in scripture where men fell prostrate before the Lord as though dead in an apparent trance-like state.(Rev 1:17) This phenomenon has taken place in Revival througout the ages. (in this instance I'm not speaking of being 'slain in the spirit') There are also many accounts from the History of Revival that show manifestations occuring in peoples bodies. Is it any wonder that flesh reacts when an all Holy, Consuming Fire touches them? We do see in scripture, however, that the Lord has granted us the right to resist the Spirit. For the Spirit of the Prophets is subject to the control of the Prophet. The Spirit does come forcefully on men at times, yet the scriptural norm is that when men are open and seeking God is generally when these things occur.Blessings,Jeff
Hi toddI'll try to answer some of your questions. I don't want to take a stance on these things, but I do share my uncertainty with many current practices.by todd on 2004/10/15 5:03:48I don't know what you mean by "produce the goods." I don't know if any one of these people would make that claim. I think it might be something more like demonstrate the goods. The power of God flowing through a a person. It seems that this is more of the kind of expectation (faith) that we need- for is it not ultimately faith in the power of God? Faith in God was never 'for' this kind of phenomena, not biblically. I am not afraid of physical manifestations of the Spirit's presence. I just don't see any parallel biblically to current practice. Here in the UK we have had meetings where everyone holds hands and at the click of the fingers of the 'preacher' something akin to an electric shock surges through the meeting. Some jump almost 3 feet into the air. The experience is referred to as being 'zapped'. The only result appears to be the greater reputation of the person who can produce the zapping. Folks are encouraged not to let their minds get in the way, but just believe and receive. Believe and receive what? A zapping?by todd on 2004/10/15 5:03:48 Acts 19:11 "And God was performing extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul"If we take the quotation to the next verse we can see the purpose of such 'extraordinary miracles'; God was performing extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul, so that handkerchiefs or aprons were even carried from his body to the sick, and the diseases left them and the evil spirits went out. (Act 19:11-12 NASB) I have no anxieties about these kinds of demonstrations of God's power; it is 'zapping' I am uncomfortable with."I am reluctant to say where I think the power is coming from, but I am profoundly disturbed that it can be accessed with such ease.Kathryn Kuhlman was reported, by her official biographer, to have used 'slaying in the spirit' as a tool to control others on the platform who became too prominent.To me, this control of others and other powers sounds more like magic than genuine faith."Who said it could be easily accessed? We don't know what individuals have gone through to find that place with God where He can trust them with higher realms of authority and power.Remember what Elisha did when he was mocked by those youth? How Paul dealt with Elymas? It seems there are places in God that we no little, if anything, of. I think it's a very wise move, and in yours and everybody else's best self-interest, not to judge these things outright but to tread very carefully here.We don't know exactly how God's government functions in these times, but it seems He has always delgated authority to key individuals whom He has chosen. This specific case of Kathryn Khulman might just be one modern example of this. I didn't say easily acquired, I said easily accessed. Some leaders of meetings can do a count-down to the 'zapping'. Elisha and Paul exercised judgmental miracles against their enemies. According to Jamie Buckingham's 'Daughter of Destiny' Kathryn Kuhlman did it to her colleagues when she thought they were becoming too prominent on the platform. There is something about that which makes me very uncomfortable. :"It bothers me too, but then it bothers me when someone changes for the better without choosing it. Is imposed holiness really holiness?I have heard lots of testimonies to this. 'Look at the fruit', they cry. but it bothers me if there was no preceding repentance. It bothers me when apparent grace is bolted on to unconfessed unrighteousness."Why does this bother you? I don't think you would put it this way outright (maybe because it's not right), but are you basically saying you want people to have to earn it more? The point I was making is that classical revival experience of prostrations was always accompanied by a deep sense of sin and an awe of God. It began with a consciousness of sin which is authentic biblically, when He is come, He will convict the world of sin... No I don't want anyone to earn anything, but I do want them to know what is happening to them. The 'foolishness' of preaching is the content not the method. The gospel is to be presented intelligibly so that choices can be made. How can this be if people are unconscious?Even so, let's not forget the humility and desperation for God it takes for most people to enter into this kind of experience (to choose to let go and let God control). Have you considered that?I'm not sure that many who adopt these practices are notorious for their humility. I have no problems about 'letting go and let God control'. I still have problems about 'letting go and letting men manipulate'.
Quote:"Faith in God was never 'for' this kind of phenomena, not biblically."Ok. I think I was unclear here and the confusion is my fault. I think I was speaking more of the "goods" of the likes that Kathryn Khulman produced (healing, deliverance, salvation, etc.), not necessarily the "phenomena" we have also been discussing (although I think that counts too). I didn't realize it's only the 'zapping' thing that you are uncomfortable with. Sorry about that. However, it seems that faith is the general requirement for receiving anything from God. Quote:"I just don't see any parallel biblically to current practice."I can see why this might make you cautious about it. But this doesn't at all mean that we should reject it, correct?Quote:"Believe and receive what? A zapping?"Since we are dealing with nonspecifics here, as far as what has actually been said by these unnamed leaders, I can't really say for sure. But my guess is that these people you speak of encourage others in attendence to engage the Spirit with their spirit and receive whatever He is giving. If you feel a sensation you might describe as a 'zap', ok then.For some reason the touch of God is often reported as feeling like electricity. This likely explains the 'zap' terminology. Quote:"I have no anxieties about these kinds of demonstrations of God's power; it is 'zapping' I am uncomfortable with."Again, sorry. I think I meant to use this verse more as a warm-up to what I was about to write concerning Kathryn Khulman, or just a verse that seemed relevant somehow. Maybe just to establish some more about the human mediation thing in general. Certainly not as a key verse in the 'phenomena' discussion.Quote:"I didn't say easily acquired, I said easily accessed."Ok. I guess my point is once a certain place of authority and power has been 'aquired', there may be an ease of access that goes along with it. So seeing the aquiring as a prerequisite to easy access, it can still be maintained that easy access is not easily aquired. You like that better?Quote:"I didn't say easily acquired, I said easily accessed. Some leaders of meetings can do a count-down to the 'zapping'."Now it seems you have made the same kind mistake I did. In this case you seem to have equated the kind of authority that Khulman evidenced on the platform with leaders who minister with the 'zapping' phenomena. Clearly these are two very different realms of authority. The Khulman example seems to be a revelation of far greater authority, as she was given the ability to, let's just say, 'get out of the way', those who she sensed needed to be out of the way. That is, they were 'taken down' perhaps somewhat involuntarily. But we can't know too much about all that for sure. Besides, this is assuming that we are looking at this whole thing in the right way. I still haven't read the material. On the other hand, the 'zap' leaders seem to operate in a fashion in which the recipients of the 'touch' are desiring it, that is, voluntarily (although it seems there are plenty of cases where critics and/or sceptics have gotten 'zapped'). In response to where the power for 'zapping' was coming from, you brought up the Khulman example, which seems to be a very different level of authority and power. I, in turn, didn't make that inconsistancy clear in my response back to you. But now I hope we are clearer on this issue.Quote:"Elisha and Paul exercised judgmental miracles against their enemies."My point with these Scriptures was simply to introduce the fact that there are places in God where few have gone and that most of us know little about. Who knows how deep the realms of friendship and intimacy with God can go, and how much He can trust people with? Perhaps God saw fit to give this kind of authority to Khulman on the platform. Or perhaps she was abusing it. We can't say for sure, can we? But the fruit of her ministry seems to speak for itself. Quote:"The point I was making is that classical revival experience of prostrations was always accompanied by a deep sense of sin and an awe of God."Ok, I guess if this bothers you it bothers you. I just don't see why it has to. Sure, there are verses about conviction, but there are verses about the Comforter too. And the desires of God to be intimate with His people. Also, I never noticed this before, but that verse you referenced speaks of Him convicting 'the world' of sin. But aren't we talking about the Church? Quote:"The gospel is to be presented intelligibly so that choices can be made."Are we talking about presenting the gospel, or the manifestations of the Spirit?
Quote:"Hi toddI'll try to answer some of your questions. I don't want to take a stance on these things, but I do share my uncertainty with many current practices."Ron,I was so caught up in the main content of your post, I think I didn't really register this introduction. I just want to make it clear that I very much respect your decision not to make a firm stance, and that it's totally fair to share your concerns. I also greatly appreciate your willingness to dialogue in a fair manner about this controversial topic.
It has been rightly said in this post that SCRIPTURE, not EXPERIENCE, must be the litmus test for any of these experiences.Brother to follow the characters of the bible primarly Jesus Christ and the apostle Paul as the rule for proper spiritual manifestations and spiritual life. Yes I believe everything in spiritual life needs to be found in Scripture if its not then I am willing to allow it pass. Spiritual Holiness has a result in a persons actions, it starts out in the heart and out of the heart comes out all the actions, words, etc. Do not get me wrong, I am not a proponent of fleshly Charismania. Nor do I label everything that shakes or barks as being of God. I hunger and thirst for the genuine moving of the Spirit that gives Glory and Honor to Jesus Christ and results in a life lived Godward. Friends let us take care that we do not accept everything that comes down the pipeline. And let us also not reject everything we do not understand.Yes absolutely I believe God is using many things for his purposes. Like Jesus told the disciples about the others who were using his name to cast out devils, that if they are not against us they are for us. In other words God will use many things for his glory! but that does not make us to be complacent with the permissilbe but to seek that which is beneficial. We need not to seek after that which is good or ok but that which is perfect which is pure and from above. Brother Jeff your heart and comments are awesome and I thank you for sharing so openly how you feel about these things. By Gods grace we can continue to strive and seek that which is perfect and pleasing in Gods sight.
The point I was making is that classical revival experience of prostrations was always accompanied by a deep sense of sin and an awe of God. It began with a consciousness of sin which is authentic biblically, when He is come, He will convict the world of sin... Amen brother Ron, I have tryed to repeat that truth many times in these forums, its something that has been lost and the concept of it doesn't make sense to the modern day Chrisitan. Falling prostrate is clearly thought of as a blessing from God now and creates an euphoric feeling of Gods presence on the body and mind, heart! which can and does happen when God pours out His joy and love on His people, but in revivals conviction of sin is the primary working of the Holy Spirit.Since we are dealing with nonspecifics here, as far as what has actually been said by these unnamed leaders, I can't really say for sure. But my guess is that these people you speak of encourage others in attendence to engage the Spirit with their spirit and receive whatever He is giving. If you feel a sensation you might describe as a 'zap', ok then.I think the problem that Ron is raising is very sensible. Why should we see after a feeling or blessing that doesn't have grounding in anything except what it is and results when you recieve it. I want to know God more and to know His love that surpasses understanding from seeking after that God will bless us. Not for our own selfish ambitions to seek after an experience.