Interesting question.

I have no question in my mind that that is NOT GOD's will for me because HE has regenerated me and given me eternal life in CHRIST. For those whom HE predestined HE also called, those HE called HE also justified and those HE justified HE also GLORIFIED!(Romans 8:30)

The golden chain of redemption is all in the past tense as though it were already complete since it is sure and absolute in its finality. Notice also that all of those links in that golden chain of redemption are all things that GOD does. It is not as though I am dependent upon myself and therefore I have assurance of heaven since I am believing on CHRIST.

No, I am not prepared for God to contradict the covenant I believe He has made with me in Christ, but hypothetically, if I proved to be a reprobate, then, yes, I have no argument with God's just damnation of me.

Who am I to reply against Him? Does the thing formed say to Him who formed it, Why have you made me thus? If God withheld His grace, no doubt I would be only a willful enemy of His holiness and an opponent of the gospel. His grace is His to give, to have mercy upon whom He will have mercy. I cannot contest that fact, but gladly receive the promises of the gospel as belonging to whosoever believes on the substitutionary death of Christ for the forgiveness of sins. His sovereignty to save or to withhold saving grace does not impugn the validity of the gospel promises.

no

Old_Joe wrote:
Are you ready/prepared to be condemned to hell if that were God's will for you?

Old Joe

strange question since the Word says God does not want anyone to perish. So it can not be His will that people go to hell, but that all come to repentance.

but as a.w tozer said "even if God sends me to hell at least there will be one man praising him there because he is worthy to be praised." i am not sure i nailed that quote since he said it in a sermon, but i think i got the point tozer was trying to get across.

A slave does as his Master commands. I like the Tozer quote, hmmhmm.

Joe,

Jesus has not asked me this question and I see no where in the bible that he has asked anyone else either. Hell was created for the devil and his angels.

Joe, I am very concerned about you. You probably don’t care right now anyway but I am having a hard time finding any humility in your writings. Look at what you are writing in all your posts, you seem to be hard with the truth you know and superior to everyone else’s writings. The bible says that we are to speak the truth in Love.

Hebrews 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

I don’t know if you realize the tone of your writings. From your writings it seems like you have been told to leave a church. I hope you the best and I pray you are not carrying any bitterness from your past. I mean no harm by writing this and if I have misread your posts please forgive me.

In Christ Love!

I think we need see what scripture says and not so much human reasoning. A Father does not want to send his son to hell. It is true Jesus went to hell so to speak, but that is not Gods will for any other son of God, seeing no one else can pay the penalty as Jesus did.

I think the childlike faith just humbly belives scripture when it says

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

I dont think God would have it in his will to send us to hell, should we be prepared to go there? I dont know, maybe,, but it seem odd to prepare for something that God never want you to do or have in his will for you.

I can not see how it benefit any believer to think in such ways? or how it encourages someone or strengthen their faith.

I know Gods will for me and all his elect, that is to be conformed into the image of Jesus. And Jesus ultimate destination is not hell and neither will it be for any brother of his enduring to the end in faith.

1Ti 1:3 As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus so that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine,
1Ti 1:4 nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies, [b]which promote speculations[/b] rather than the stewardship from God that is by faith.

these types of questions and discussion feed speculation, i dont find it very edifying to be honest. Nor do i seem to see what the "point" of this thinking is? maybe you can share some more of your thoughts Joe?

Father, thy will be done

Since Jesus is the Holy One and the Father made these promises to Him

Psalm 16:10
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Acts 2:27
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

In Christ we become the righteousness of God

2 Cor. 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Since Jesus Christ is the firstborn

Col. 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

We also have the promise in Him

Romans 8:11
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

So if it would be Gods will to send us to hell, it will also be Gods will that all those in Christ Jesus will not see corruption.

In His Love
pastorfrin

Jesus did not willingly go through death, hell and the grave by himself. Matthew 26:39 tells us, "And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, "O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt."
Matthew 26:42 also says, "He went away the second time, and prayed, saying, "O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done." It was God's will that Jesus followed through with, not His own. And if it is God's will for us to do likewise, than we should do the same. Praying for God's grace to do it! After all, we are here to reflect Christ! If Jesus, still being in the flesh, prayed till he sweat drops of blood, than who are we to think that we should not do the same, if we are followers of Christ! Thank you for this post! It has shed light on a few things for me! God Bless!
Wendy :-)

What you are essentially asking is, if [i]we[/i] were Christ would any of us have taken upon themselves the sins of the whole world? Scripture basically answers the question:

[color=000066]For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

For [u]scarcely[/u] for a righteous man will one die: yet [u]peradventure[/u] for a good man [u]some[/u] would even dare to die.

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. (Romans 5) [/color]

Only Christ would give His life for a world of lost sinners. This is one of the aspects of His glory and why for eternity we will proclaim He is worthy...

these types of questions and discussion feed speculation, i dont find it very edifying to be honest. Nor do i seem to see what the "point" of this thinking is? maybe you can share some more of your thoughts Joe?

I also think as hmmhmm that we have to be careful how we navigate this subject and how we approach it. If we are talking about Christ's willingness to "drink the cup" then we need to know what we mean. Personally I am of the Penal Substitution Atonement theology. What it means to drink that cup is impossible for us to know.

I believe I see what you were hoping to stir in the minds of the readers of this post Old Joe. It kind of makes me think of some of what Paris Reidhead talks about in "Ten Shekels and a Shirt". I'm not sure, however, that there couldn't have been a little less confusing way of pointing people to the idea of being completely submitted to God.

I would like to point out to everyone an idea that is from scripture that might support Old Joe's line of questioning: God tells Abraham to sacrifice his son. How many of us would not even consider it due to the fact that we feel it violates the promise in our life that He will raise us a great nation through Isaac? The fact is, God said do it, and Abraham was willing - and he had the faith to believe that IF it was God's will for this to happen then God would still uphold His promise and would raise Isaac up from the dead. Bottom line: God asked and Abraham didn't reason it out according to his understanding, he just had faith and acted and it was credited to Him as righteousness.

If God should send me to Hell by His will, then I would like to say I would have the faith to believe He would also raise me from the pit of Hell and remain true to His other promises that have been given to all of those who trust in Christ.

but a slave doesn't desire what a master desires, but only submits out of fear of retribution

I would disagree with this statement. perhaps the slave has fully submitted to the will of his master because that is what he is called to do. we are to submit to the delegated authority of God.

I think that is maybe a point you are trying to make. Are we willing to submit to God, even if it was as extreme as our damnation. I guess a question I would ask you Joe, which is something I've asked myself, is would you be willing to serve God and submit to His authority even if you knew you were to be damned to hell?

I do agree that we need to tread lightly and speak to one another in love and humility. Philippians 2:1-11

If God should send me to Hell by His will, then I would like to say I would have the faith to believe He would also raise me from the pit of Hell and remain true to His other promises that have been given to all of those who trust in Christ.

I think the focus we need is to realize that faith comes when God speaks:

[color=000066] So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (Romans 10)[/color]

Faith comes when God quickens His will to our heart by revelation. it cannot be presumption. This is what the devil tried to tempt our Lord with. Satan said, "Throw thyself down, for it is written..." But the Lord started the test by reminding the devil that man is not to live by bread alone but by every word that is proceeding from the mouth of God.

This means that [u]if[/u] God said to "cast thyself down and the angels will take charge of thee" then He could do it [i]in faith[/i]. Why is it faith? Because God spoke to Him.

What if Peter had tried to walk on water before Jesus bid him come? It would have been presumption. If [u]I[/u] quote the passages about Peter walking on water and then try to do it [i]myself[/i] by faith then I would surely sink. Why? Because God did not speak to me that truth to me. If He did speak it to me by quickening it to my heart- I could step out in faith also and so could any of the disciples that the word was quickened to.

RobertW wrote:

If God should send me to Hell by His will, then I would like to say I would have the faith to believe He would also raise me from the pit of Hell and remain true to His other promises that have been given to all of those who trust in Christ.

I think the focus we need is to realize that faith comes when God speaks:

[color=000066] So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (Romans 10)[/color]

Faith comes when God quickens His will to our heart by revelation. it cannot be presumption. This is what the devil tried to tempt our Lord with. Satan said, "Throw thyself down, for it is written..." But the Lord started the test by reminding the devil that man is not to live by bread alone but by every word that is proceeding from the mouth of God.

This means that [u]if[/u] God said to "cast thyself down and the angels will take charge of thee" then He could do it [i]in faith[/i]. Why is it faith? Because God spoke to Him.

What if Peter had tried to walk on water before Jesus bid him come? It would have been presumption. If [u]I[/u] quote the passages about Peter walking on water and then try to do it [i]myself[/i] by faith then I would surely sink. Why? Because God did not speak to me that truth to me. If He did speak it to me by quickening it to my heart- I could step out in faith also and so could any of the disciples that the word was quickened to.

Well said. We must seek to know His voice, follow His voice and trust that He is the Good Shepherd. Even if we find ourselves being asked to sacrifice something dear to us, or to step out on water, or to walk through the valley of the shadow of death, we will have nothing to fear for He is leading us and we can have FAITH that He is good and all of His ways are good.

Greetings all,

I am amazed at the kind of questions that can be asked here.

How is it that these things can be asked in a way that it is [b]impossible to know who will be reading it[/b]?

Is this some sort of game??

Can we ask anything we want to people that can not look us in the face and in the eye?

When the Apostle Paul made that amazing declaration in Romans 9:2-3, he, it appears, knowing how astounding his declaration was, prefaced it by saying:

[b][color=000000] I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, [/color][/b]

And yet, did he turn and ask them the same thing?? Did he then ask them if the same was true of them? What?

But, also, was he not writting to people that he knew, or who could know of his love and care for them, or who were also aqauinted with his own faith and love and works?

But he does not ask them such a thing, but NOT EVEN MORE to strangers?

We aught to consider if taking shots in the dark will make us more like a skilled and carefull surgeon, or like a blind swordsman hacking away into the air.

We are not playing a childs game of operation, where the worst penalty for our errors is that a cheap peice of electronics and plastic glows and makes an annoying sound.

We are dealing with flesh and blood, with the hearts and minds and spirits of people made in the image of God.

Old_Joe,

You said,

"It's no game, it's dead serious."

And yet you continue to speak and to teach others in a multitude [b]of your own words[/b].

Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

what is disturbing is this reasoning and thinking and questioning is not to be found in the word, scripture says God dont wish anyone to perish, then why would we want to have such thoughts and questionings knowing it is not the Lords will?

Luther may have said something alike, but luthers words are not christs, i think Luther said much that is under the category "words of Christ" and that is very benefitial to read and dwell upon, but this is clearly not when we compare to the Words of Christ in the bible.

So it is not wise to teach such or ask such questions that we know is not God.

We are then very close to create an idol, a God of our imagination that is not real.

May we teach the true God and what he says in scripture.

let us ask and seek wisdom how we can teach the words of Christ with all wisdom.

NKJ Colossians 2:8 ¶ Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.

philosophy, (fribergs)

love of wisdom, pursuit of wisdom; in a negative sense in the NT, of a worldview opposed to that derived from divine revelation human wisdom or understanding

[i]Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?[/i]

Gen 18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

This hypothetical question is troubling for a number of reasons. One, that it is hypothetical to begin with. Secondly that it presupposes something that is out of His character by a prepositional "if". Lastly, there is no biblical warrant or equivalent.

I get as much as anyone might the gist of this by way of examples noted already, of being wiling, of a Tozer or Reidhead making mention of preaching in hell itself if that was the outcome of it all. But there is a world of difference between being wiling to obey [i]knowing[/i] the character and righteousness (... do 'right" in the verse above) of God, having a [i]expectation[/i] that that very expectation is fulfilled by His character - In other words ...[i]be (it) far from thee to do after this manner[/i], and, positing something that He would not do.

So the question falls apart and no, I am not ready to be condemned when the Lord came to redeem men from this very thing. It would not happen, it is not His will and never will be. The "if" is without warrant.

Moses, Paul, Abraham, Daniel ... David, I am trying to recall any instance where these men made reference to be ... [i]"accursed" ... "blot me out of Thy book I pray" ... " ... even if He does not deliver us, we will not bow down"[/i]. All of these being [i]wiling[/i] does not lessen their intention, but neither does it do away with their known expectations, that [i]the Judge of all the earth will do right[/i].

Far be it for Him to do otherwise.

Question: "[i]Are you ready/prepared to be condemned to hell if that were God's will for you[/i]?"

Answer (as HmmHmm pointed out): [color=660000]"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." [/color]

In other words, it is NOT God's will for anyone to perish. Period. This is clear from this verse, John 3:16-17 and pretty much any other verse in the Word of God regarding the Lord's heart for us. Jesus didn't die for a select few...He died because He so loved [i]the world[/i]. Although God may already know who will ultimately choose to believe in Him, it is just downright [u]silly[/u] to even suggest that God might want some people to go to Hell. We have a free will...that distinguishes us from all of creation. We can choose to give our lives to Him. While God might know who is ultimately His (since He sits in Eternity...already knowing past, present and future) -- we still do not know our outcome. I can guarantee that if a person does not believe in Jesus...they were not "chosen," "preordained," "predestined," etc... They are just lost.

I don't know what will happen to my next door neighbor. He may live to be 100. He may die when he is 30. However, I can pretty much guarantee that if he were to stand in front of a train going 65 miles per hour, he will not live to be either 30 or 100. Was he predestined to die in front of a train? Well, he wrote his own destiny using the pen of "free will."

But...in answer to your initial question...

No, it is NEVER God's will for anyone to go to Hell. It is His will that ALL should come to repentance. This is the very essence of the "Gospel" -- the "good news."

:-)

Duplicate post.

Joe,

The thread you started stated about being condemned to hell. There is no mention about going to hell and then God miraculously raising you from hell.

Abraham was not asked to condemn his Son to hell. He was asked to offer his son as a sacrifice believing in the promise of God that he can not lie. The bible says in Hebrews chapter 11 that Abraham believed that God was able to raise him from the death.

Hebrews 11:19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

Christ is the seed of Abraham from whom the promise has come. Abraham offering Isaac is the antitype of God offering his own Son. This will never be repeated just like the offering of Jesus as the supreme sacrifice will never be repeated. God has told us that sacrificing children was an abomination to God.

You mentioning Abraham have nothing to do with someone being asked to be condemned to hell. Your reasoning makes no sense at all. Abraham believed that the promised seed was in Isaac and he believed God so strongly that he was willing to sacrifice his Son accounting that God able to raise him up, even from the dead, from where also he received him in a figure. The bible says that we are saved by believing in the sacrifice of his Son and that he raised him from the dead.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

God sent not his son into the world to condemn the world but that the world through him might be saved.

In Christ Love

Hi Joe...

It is NOT God`s will that a parent should kill their own child either, yet Abraham faced this at the very hand of God.

You are asking a question that was already answered by Jesus himself. You are introducing a hypothetical scenario that is just unBiblical. We already know that God doesn't want ANYONE to perish. He doesn't predetermine for ANYONE to go to Hell...because He gave His life for ALL the world. He doesn't want for ANYONE to perish. How can we ask a question...and then attribute this fictional, unBiblical scenario to an act of faith reminiscient of Abraham?

If you want to relive the scenario of Abraham, then why not ask whether any of us would be willing to do what Abraham was asked to do? Yet you are introducing the possibility that it is God's will that some who know Him and follow Him will go to Hell. Where, dear brother, do you even find this in the Scriptures? It seems that the body of Scriptures very clearly point otherwise.

:-(

All I have been asking everyone to do here is face the issue like Abraham did, or like Luther and others preached, yet everyone here is afraid to face the issue. It only proves the faith of Abraham is very rare.

Hi Old Joe,

Maybe we are missing your overall premise after all. I will face it.

No, I do not have the faith of Abraham.

This reminds me of Zac Poonen when he was here last speaking on the use of money and a mention that he did not have the faith of George Mueller, that kind of faith - It was just a very frank admission.

It is probably just as likely obvious to you our issues in the way this was framed, this question, so it seems to be belaboring the point to go on much more about it.

Another verse came to mind that might run somewhat along the line you were drawing;

Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

And strangely enough I want to put them out of sequence;

[i]Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?[/i] Rom 9:20,21

It is after all a "What if" sort of question.

But ... sure you anticipated this 'but' ... Using these verses is taking things a bit out of context just as well. I still come back to a thought I have had running for awhile about [i]incidents[/i] and [i]precedents[/i] in the scriptures. Abraham and Issac is an incident though it was more profoundly expected by Jesus.

I can see where this could just get bogged down now that I think about it. As difficult as it might sound, Abraham did not have our struggles nor we his. They are just different. How would any of us react, how [i]should[/i] we react?

No offense but I have a hard enough time with things that are actual then to concern myself with things abstract and 'possible'. Being condemned to hell ... and being wiling to accept that? I do not think you should be at all surprised by the responses you are getting here brother.

As the word says, that is where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
So could anybody be prepared for it?
I think not.
Tozer was noble in his attitude, but when faced with the holy judgments of God I think the whining will begin.

Old_Joe,

You said,

"I guess you don't read or hear many sermons then, since they are in the preacher's own words."

We are not here talking about the words of other men, but [b]yours[/b].

Crssck's: Being condemned to hell ... and being wiling to accept that? I do not think you should be at all surprised by the responses you are getting here brother.

I am often concerned by questions that come up seeking to tap the greatest extremes in our willingness to glorify God and do His will. These 'what if' questions often run contrary to the revealed character of God. So then the question itself should be called into question.

Paul writes in Romans 9:

[color=000066] For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ [u]for[/u] my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: [/color]

Paul speaking under inspiration of God and full of His love makes this statement, not just to glorify God in some abstract sense (as if God could be glorified by sending one of His children to Hell without cause or purpose), but saying in effect- if it would save the many, I the one would trade place with [i]them[/i].

To arbitrarily volunteer to go to hell for eternity after Christ has died for the sins of the whole would would be to rob the Lamb that was slain of one more soul that constitutes the 'reward of His suffering'. So how can we in one breath declare- "May the Lamb that was slain receive the reward of his suffering" while simultaneously volunteering to go to Hell- without contradiction?

Amen RobertW,

Paul was full of the love of God and following in the footsteps of Christ.

Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Christ was cursed for all of us but he was not condemned to hell and I don't believe Paul was talking about being condemn to hell either.

People who really love God want to be with God no matter what they are called to go through.

Christ can strengthen me to go through anything for a little while for his glory but in the end I will be with him.

Blessings!

RobertW wrote:

Crssck's: Being condemned to hell ... and being wiling to accept that? I do not think you should be at all surprised by the responses you are getting here brother.

I am often concerned by questions that come up seeking to tap the greatest extremes in our willingness to glorify God and do His will. These 'what if' questions often run contrary to the revealed character of God. So then the question itself should be called into question.

Paul writes in Romans 9:

[color=000066] For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ [u]for[/u] my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: [/color]

Paul speaking under inspiration of God and full of His love makes this statement, not just to glorify God in some abstract sense (as if God could be glorified by sending one of His children to Hell without cause or purpose), but saying in effect- if it would save the many, I the one would trade place with [i]them[/i].

To arbitrarily volunteer to go to hell for eternity after Christ has died for the sins of the whole would would be to rob the Lamb that was slain of one more soul that constitutes the 'reward of His suffering'. So how can we in one breath declare- "May the Lamb that was slain receive the reward of his suffering" while simultaneously volunteering to go to Hell- without contradiction?

Hi Old Joe...

Being the first one to look internally in the matter, you win the prize on this one. Well done! Do you think anyone else will?

Would we be willing to suffer for Christ? Would we be willing to sacrifice our own child for God? These are legitimate questions. God asked Abraham to do something that was entirely against His promise. Yet Abraham submitted...not because he thought that God's promise was void, but because he reasoned that this was just a spot along the road to the destination that God promised (that He would raise a mighty nation out of Isaac). Yet we can't pretend that it was ever God's will for Isaac to die...and not be raised again. In other words, God's promise was to raise a mighty nation out of Isaac...and Abraham believed God! To ask such a question about going to Hell...when we know who it is created for...is, in my opinion, to doubt God's Word regarding the matter.

I apologize if response is not what you were hoping for from the brethren. I think that I know the essence of what you are asking (submitting fully to God's will...regardless of the apparent scenario). I am concerned only with the nature of the question...which seemingly causes us to question what God has already made plain from His Word.

But, yes, I am willing to submit to God in all circumstances. However, I am keenly aware that God is not a liar...and that He would not condemn me to Hell if I have truly believed in Him.

I hope this clarifies my previous post(s).

:-)

Old_Joe said

In the words of Luther.

The Lord Jesus Christ said,

[b][color=660000]My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.
[/color][/b]

I am not at all surprised, I have learned to expect it.

[b][color=000000]The people here are not your play things.[/color][/b]

It is NOT God`s will that a parent should kill their own child either, yet Abraham faced this at the very hand of God. All I have been asking everyone to do here is face the issue like Abraham did, or like Luther and others preached, yet everyone here is afraid to face the issue. It only proves the faith of Abraham is very rare.

As has been pointed out several times I think, the story from the Bible that you are making refrence too has [b]no correspondence[/b] to the question you put in the faces of everyone here.

Abraham had recieved a promise and believed that God could [b]fulfill it[/b], and that He was able to raise his son from the dead(see Hebrews 11:17-19).

So, what does [i]this[/i] prove then? that is, what you have done here, what does [i]that[/i] prove?

I think that it suggests to me that a misapplication of scripture, along with human reasoning and self-willed interjections in the form of questions is destructive.

It suggests to me also, that you are not fit to handle the things of God [b]in the capacity that you are attempting here[/b].

Since you feel the boldness to declare to the people here what you believe they are afraid to face, may I suggest to you, that you face this.

Sincerely,

Christopher Joel Dandrow

John 15:12-14
This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. [13] Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. [14] Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

Both were prepared to suffer damnation, not for their own sin, but for the cause of another. These are the kinds of things Christians are enabled to do and be, in the Spirit.

I think this is true, but I think there is also a definite objective behind the feeling. There is a desire to stand in the gap and make up the hedge (as it were). But in each of these situations there is a conscious choice to chose man over God. That is a stunning consideration.

And this is the heart that breaks for sinners, but at the same time has a fierce loyalty to God. This is why Ravenhill said a prophet is a tragic figure.

Hi OldJoe...

Has anyone here ever cried out to God in such a manner so as to be damned that another may be saved? Only then can you know how close to God you really can be.

Your example of Moses...and Paul...are actually counterintuitive to your original question. Their statements were an act of love for sinful people...and not to be confused with the "will of God." Through their examples, we learned that a person cannot be more forgiving than God. It was NOT God's will to curse Paul the Apostle...even if Paul was willing to do anything for the lost.

We can certainly love the lost like that. But we need to be aware of the Lord's Word in this matter. God is NOT WILLING for ANYONE to perish. If we come to Him and believe in Him...and continue to walk with Him until the end, there is NO CHANCE that we will go to Hell when we die.

:-)

Hi Joe...

You are still missing the point.

Like Christ, both Paul and Moses were willing to be damned for the sake of the lost. This is not about any chance of them going there, but of the willingness of their hearts to deny self to the utmost. A total forsaking of your own will and desires for the will and desires of God, come what may.

People can talk of self-denial, but when the rubber hits the road all it usually amounts to is a show of vain-glory. When one is personally willing to deny self in the ultimate sense (as were Paul and Moses, and Luther described so well), then it is that Christ is evident in the believer. Until then, the entire profession may be nothing other than a show of vain-glory.

However, I think that you are erring with the original question. You are asking us to consider a hypothetical idea...that is contrary to what we know about God. God does not WANT for anyone to go to Hell. Period.

You can create hypothetical situations all you want -- but there is a reason that people are pointing out the contradiction to your original postulate. The Word of God is CLEAR that God doesn't send people to Hell who believe in Him (in a Biblical sense of salvation). The Word of God is clear that God does not exchange saved souls for lost souls (Moses for Israel, or Paul for lost Jews/Gentiles, etc...).

I understand that you are likely trying to point out the selfless love of these men. We should strive to have such a selfless love for the lost. Yet we still should refrain from introducing hypothetical reasoning when the underlying principle is simply unbiblical. For instance, I don't have to entertain hypothetical questions about whether or not God wants men pay their taxes...because this is already clear from the Word of God. Likewise, I don't have to entertain a hypothetical scenario about God possibly sending people to Hell who have given themselves wholely to Him. Even if the point you are trying to make is thought-provoking, the notion of God doing so is entirely unbiblical! Worse, it hypothesizes that God can possibly LIE about His gift of salvation.

I have heard people say that they would serve God even if there was no Heaven or Hell. Yet we don't have to consider such a scenario...because God has already established the truth of the matter. There [u]is[/u] a Heaven...and it is promised to all who believe in Him! I don't serve Him [i]because[/i] of going to Heaven...or in order to miss Hell. However, I don't have to hypothesize about an eternity where neither exist for me.

I think that I understand what you are trying to get at...although it does seem that your premise is meant to provoke each of us into ascertaining just how "spiritual" we are. Yet is this what we are supposed to be doing? Wouldn't it be better to simply use a hypotheses like Abraham and Isaac...or Moses and the people of Israel? In those, God didn't contradict His Word. I guess that is the point that we are trying to make. We understand what you are trying to get at (I think), but there is a much more Biblical way to go about it.

Thank you, brother, and I hope you know of the love I hold for you.

:-)

If one takes a stick and strikes a bell, unable to deny itself, it cries out with much loudness about how it was offended

Old_Joe,

This might be fine if the people here were bells, or some other dull and lifeless object, but they are not.

It might also be fine if anyone of us had the authority to go around whacking them with whatever stick we felt was suitable to pick up off the ground to beat things with.

But the people here are not ours to do with as we please.

Paul the Apostle wrote, in speaking of the ministry that he and others had from God:

"But we will not boast of things without [i]our[/i] measure, but according to the measure of the rule which God hath distributed to us, a measure to reach even unto you. For we stretch not ourselves beyond [i]our measure[/i], as though we reached not unto you: for we are come as far as to you also in [i]preaching[/i] the gospel of Christ:"

- 2Corinthians 10:13-14(KJV)

...we stretch not ourselves beyond [i]our measure[/i].

Please consider this.

All:
I did not start this thread see you write down whether you are or aren't willing to deny yourself, because your writing of it most often proves meaningless. I started this thread for each of us to see within our own hearts if we would actually be willing to be damned were it really the will of God in our life. It is to help with our own self-determination of the denial of self and the yieldedness of each to the will of God.

There are different kinds of people that profess to be Christians, and each react differently when prodded in manners outside their beaten paths.

Old Joe, others ...

Different points to be made and I am not so sure that the means and manners of getting there, of guessing at motivations, leveling various accusations is all that helpful. There is as much not being considered by both Old Joe as there are those overlooking the greater point which I still find a bit skewered to be honest, but, we have preachers of the past here that have given similar extrapolations as has been noted. Think we are missing each other and misinterpreting things to some extent, missing by miles when the truth is not so far off from each other.

I want to clarify, not defend what I stated earlier about not having the 'faith of Abraham'. In my mind, I was thinking as it pertained mainly to his offering up Issac as a sacrifice and if I extended it to his life in general, would I be [i]wiling[/i] to uproot my family and [i]move[/i] not even knowing where I was going? Not likely as I sit here dumping my brain out in musings ...

We have gone through some of these 'what if' scenarios in the past here and I find them bothersome on certain levels. At any given moment we will react more likely dependent on the given circumstances, where our head and heart is at - The distinct problem with these hypothetical's is to put present circumstances and conditions into futuristic constructs and make bold statements about what we would do when they arrive. It is entirely foolish on that level. The examples in these previous 'what if' scenarios ran the gamut, but one of these was geared towards a sort of skewered pacifism (in my opinion) over 'what we do' if a family member was attacked or threatened - And of course there was a range of 'dependents' - If, it was a matter of renouncing the faith, if it was a thief breaking into your house, if someone attacked your wife, your child, etc.

The problem with all this again, is just too many variables - The 'what if's' can become endless: [i]What if[/i] you are in a particular mindset where things are cold and you feel your prayers are as met with heavens of brass? [i]What
if[/i] you were full of zeal and felt the Lords Presence so powerfully, you may do what even you might not expect - There is just no end to it all.

On the flip-side of all this is something less a dogmatic, futuristic absolute, but more along the lines of provoking thought - Wiling to be damned is strong language and some of us have been at pains to express our repudiation of such a thing, while some of us get the greater point I do not think Old Joe is getting ours, I have no other course than to single you out brother, it was your posit here ...

But the more I though on this, the more something else came to mind, and if a difficult sounding question brought this up, well maybe there is something to gain after all.

[i]Reverend Wurmbrand: A Westerner can't understand God is here and knows that I will not tell you the while truth because if I will tell you the while truth, you will faint and rush out of this room, not bearing to hear what things have happened. But I will tell you that in a prison they crucified a cat before ourselves.

They beat nails in the feet of the cat and the cat was hanging with the head down, and can you imagine how this cat screamed and the prisoners, mad, bead on the door, "Free the cat, free the cat, free the cat," and the Communists very polite, "Oh, surely we will free the cat, but give the statements which we ask from you and then the cat will be freed," and I have known men who have given statements against their wives, against their children, against their parents to free the cat.

They did it out of madness, and then the parents and the wives have been tortured like the cat. Such things have happened with us.[/i]

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=16110&forum=40&post_id=&refresh=Go]Amazing Testimony Of Richard Wurmbrand (Interview)[/url]

I have written a bit here in the past about my cat, [i]The Girl[/i] as she is so affectionately referred to, though she manages to have more names and alter ego's as Sybil (The woman with multiple personalties and names). She is in a sense the perfect heathen at times but primarily she exudes love, [i]lover butt[/i] is almost always the epitome of just an overgrown kitten, even at 10 years of age. She is without question '[i]Daddy's Girl[/i]'. Shall I go on? What, all this over a 'cat'? More than just a 'part of the family' - I wish I could tell all of what she means to us here in this very odd, dysfunctional family, but I never could - She is almost like a certain glue and I am often convinced she was sent, not merely accidentally happened upon when she followed us home as a true kitten and wooed us with her exuding charm all those years ago. Her Daddy worries much about her due to the ... idiots that think our street is just the bend before the finish line at Talladega and her own normal cat instincts at pouncing on movable objects. Everyday I pray the Lord protect her and keep her from doing something stupid and especially staying out of the darn street! Every morning I wake up, open the back slider and look for a little white paw sticking under the gate, thank you Lord.

A lot of this could be misconstrued and a lot more would go into furthering our present situation - it's not just some overblown lavishing of sentimentality nor is it paranoia, she is equally 'Mama's Girl' as she is 'Josh's Girl'.

Take all this and transpose it against what these people tragically experienced in the account above from Richard Wurmbrand. I need not express what sort of madness this 'what if' might have caused me to see it, but if it were [i]Daddy's Girl[/i]? Would it be a stretch that I might not Samson like tore those bars off that cell and ...

What I am driving at here is that I have oft stated to the Lord that He take me before [i]The Girl[/i] and I do indeed mean it, for my own sake indeed, not wiling to bare it, but also for my wife, for Josh. Taking all that Old Joe has attempted and what all of us might not have considered ... What about the notion that it is far easier for us to lay down our life than to be wiling to [i]stand by[/i] and watch, if not outright preform the killing of an Issac if that is what the Lord had commanded? What sort of madness and tragedy of thought might have gone on in Abraham's mind? It does not say and we lose the pause up the mountain in reading these things in paragraph form already at the outcome without any of the tension and dynamics, the heart wrenching, bone shattering, mind .. boggling aspects. What of his [i]emotions[/i] and the [i]testing[/i] of his faith ...

And yes, transfer all this over to the Father [i]standing by[/i] while His only begotten Son agonized in the garden, was beaten and spat upon, a crown of thorns - The vicious stripes, the vitriol and verbal cries of [i]Crucify![/i] - All of it, all in total until being [i][u] nailed[/u][/i]- Stop. [i]Nailed[/i], being a contractor of sorts for a good portion of this life, hammering a [i]nail[/i] into a piece of wood and hammering a piece of human flesh, bones and corpuscles and all ... The savagery, the madness of it all - A cat, in that instance above seems to get us more cognizant strangely doesn't;t it? It may just be due to that familiarity with the 'story' of it all - but all of a sudden, a helpless cat crying out ... I think you get my point.

So maybe, just maybe there is something even more profound and difficult than just being wiling to give up our own lives and if I have to ask it - Are you ready and wiling to [i]stand by[/i] and watch ...? It makes even this peculiar 'what if' of being commended to hell [i]almost[/i] more preferable in my mind, than to stand by and do nothing to save another.

The choice was not man over God, but another man over self. Far from the rejection of the presence of God they were actually encapsulated in it in the imitation of Christ.

This is only partly true, because the eternal consequence in both Moses and Paul's case would have been to be blotted from the book of life or accursed from Christ. Would not both Moses and Paul had forfeited their relationship with God if He had honored their desire?

Hi Joe…

Even the heathen serve God, only a Christian trusts Him in all.

I wasn't really concerned about your service to Him, this was about you seeing how much you [i]trust[/i] Him. Do you trust Him on the way to the furnace similar to Daniel's friends did? Do you trust Him on the water as Peter did? Do you trust Him in the lion's den as Daniel did? Do you trust him further than that as Paul and Moses did?

Keith Green wrote a great song about “pledging his head to Heaven for the Gospel.” Yet it didn’t talk about simply pledging his own head – he pledged the head of his wife and his son. Wurmbrand’s [i]Voice of the Martyrs[/i] newsletters has been filled with stories of believers who were forced to stand by and watch as their children endured excruciating torture – all for the cause of Christ. I remember one story about a mother and father who were about to witness their 10 yr old get hanged for the faith. All they had to do was deny Christ…and their child could have lived. They walked over to the child, whispered in his ear, “[i]Just close your eyes. You will see Jesus shortly…and we will join you soon[/i].” What a display of trust in the face of great tribulation! The death of such a saint is surely precious in the sight of God.

With all of these examples, we still need to realize that God’s “will” does not contradict His “Word.” If you want to understand my perspective, it almost seems that, through this initial, hypothetical question, you telling us to trust…that God might not fulfill His Word regarding our salvation? You see, it appears that you are asking us to consider a hypothetical question about God breaking the New Covenant (the covenant of His blood) with us. God will not break that covenant…and will not send the Bride of Christ to Hell. So why even consider the question in the first place? The means does not always justify the end.

What you should see should humble you, not make you proud. Mike was the only one who even got close to seeing it the right way.

Further, you now assume that it is a matter or “pride” if we do not see things the way you supposedly see them (what you called “the right way”). Brother, I know that you probably didn’t mean to express it in this manner, but this is what it appears.

I am getting at what Luther was getting at, the same way he was getting at it.

It seems like Luther is sorting through a question about [i]predestined election[/i] – which is certainly a hotly debated issue (and FAR from certain). Regardless, Luther was just a man. He may have done some great things…but he was still fallible and prone to the flaws of this earthly tabernacle. In this example, Martin Luther seems to say a very unbiblical thing (although I can’t find a citation to verify the authenticity of it). He is directly contradicting the promise of God called the New Covenant. It just doesn’t make sense to hypothesize that God would want to send some people to Hell when He has already made it clear (in the Word) that He doesn’t want ANYONE to perish.

Brother, I feel that I completely understand the underlying principle that you are making…and I agree with the notion about trusting God in all things. Yet we must know the Word…and know that God will not contradict His Word. Abraham was willing to sacrifice his only son…because He reasoned that God would raise Isaac from the dead (Hebrews 11:17-19). Yet God stopped this physical sacrifice because the inner sacrifice had already been revealed.

Should we hypothesize about God not fulfilling His promise of salvation to those who have faithfully believed and trusted in Him? Wouldn’t that be the equivalent of [i]doubt[/i] and [i]unbelief[/i] rather than [i]trust[/i]?

In a nutshell, I feel that what I perceive to be your underlying principle is quite noble. I simply think that the example was flawed at its root.

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Thank you, brother, and I hope you know of the love I hold for you.

Joe’s response: “It will take a little more time to tell the truth of this.”

:-)

Hi Joe...

These are all examples of someone else's faith. Only when you have been in the same fire can you actually understand. To what level have you personally suffered for the cause of Christ?

Does that mean that those of us who have not suffered greatly for the cause of Christ are somehow ignorant of the extent of truly trusting Christ? Suffering is surely a testament of commitment. However, people all over the world are willing to suffer for ungodly causes. Some extremists even attach bombs to themselves or their children and who then walk to the marketplace so that they can kill people. Even in this nation: How many times have we heard fathers claim that they would do anything for their family – including “[i]sell their souls to the devil[/i]?” Does that make it a [i]righteous[/i] thing? I would never do (or say) such a thing – because I don’t have to! I already know what the Word says about “working out our own salvation with fear and trembling.”

In the case of your question, the Word of God is exceedingly clear about the terms of salvation under this New Covenant…so we do not have to entertain a hypothetical question like the one you raised. To entertain such a question, in my opinion, is to lack faith in God’s covenant with us.

ORIGINAL QUESTION IN THREAD:
[b]Are you ready/prepared to be condemned to hell if that were God's will for you?[/b]

.......

"Christ entertained it, Paul entertained it, Moses entertained it..."

Oh really? Where did our Lord consider entertaining hypothetical questions that lay aside His New Covenant promise of salvation? Did He [u]ever[/u] entertain the possibility that He would contradict His promise to save those who call upon Him in truth?

Brother, you are stretching here. In fact, I feel that this initial question almost borders on disrespect of God’s promise. I understand the point that you are trying to make -- but God cannot [u]lie[/u]. This was the "faith" that Abraham displayed. It is the faith that reasoned that God would NOT lie…or break His promise of raising up a mighty nation out of Isaac. Yes, Abraham was willing to sacrifice that son…but with the knowledge that God did not LIE to him regarding the promises that He made regarding Isaac. In addition, Paul did not state that he would assuredly go to Hell if it were God’s will – because Paul clearly understood that it was [u]not[/u] God’s will. Similarly, Moses lived under a different covenant than we or Paul. He made his declaration during the beginning days of the Old Covenant. Yet in any case, Moses is NOT God.

The difference between all of these anecdotes is that their examples are very different than the hypothetical question that you introduced.

“Are you ready/prepared to be condemned to hell [b][u]if[/u][/b] that were God’s will for you?”

Brother, it is NOT God’s will for me.

Brother, it is NOT God’s will for you.

Brother, God doesn’t want ANYONE to go to Hell.

Is that clear enough?

I understand your point about caring for the lost…and even suffering for Christ. Yet this question is not the way to make a point. We are believers: You could have stated as much without using such an extra Biblical device to illustrate your point.

Everyone here [b]seems[/b] to be at best content with just not being damned (Luther refers to this group in one of the quotes). I am here to tell you that you can go much higher than that. As 1 Cor teaches, you may not understand it at first, but as you come through it, you will.

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
How? Please don’t doubt my love that I hold for you even if I might disagree with the question that you initially asked. It is real, dear brother.
________________________________________

Old Joe: “Only after it has been tried in the fire, can I know.”

Brother, I probably will move on from this thread. I think (and hope) that I made my feelings clear in this. I don't have a problem with the end of what you are trying to achieve. I just have issues with the rhetorical method by which you introduced it. I trust, however, that you meant well by it all...and only hoped to achieve a greater semblance of trust amongst the saints.

:-)

Old_Joe,

Why do you continue to talk and strive so much about your opinons while speaking to others about their desire to only save themselves?

this was about you seeing how much you trust Him

If you want to speak to others about their trust in God you could demonstrate your own by stiving less with your own intellect, words, and opinons. You could demonstrate a reliance upon God by appealing to His Word in an accurate manner and not imposing specualtions and human reasonings without end to make a point and that you interjected with a question to people you know nothing about.

Doing so doesn't demonstrate an abandoment of self at all.

Everyone can go their own way as they wish, but I am going with Luther.

If you're going to continue to challenge the faith of others, why not go the way of the Master instead? He said,

[b][color=660000] I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. [/color][/b]

You may be able to convince others that you are genuinely concerned about them denying themselves.

Christ entertained the idea of eternal damnation for himself, the sinless one. When He took on the penalty for sin, he took it willingly as though it was an everlasting penalty.

[b][color=000000]Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [i]our[/i] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. [/color][/b]

- Hebrews 12:2(KJV)

I don't find any correspondence here, or with the 'interesting question' that was and continues to be raised here.

Hi OldJoe...

Christ entertained the idea of eternal damnation for himself, the sinless one. When He took on the penalty for sin, he took it willingly as though it was an everlasting penalty. Remember, while on earth, retaining his omniscience Christ forsook knowledge of some things future (Mark 13:32). This included not knowing the end of the sacrifice He was about to make. Though He knew He would be three days in the heart of the earth Matt 12:40, as far as He was concerned at that time, His sacrifice and payment was a dedication to eternal damnation.

Yet...in a way...this doesn't truly defend your initial question. We are talking about whether or not we should express a willingness to go to Hell even though it brings into question the truth about the New Covenant promise of salvation. It is one thing to provoke one another into trusting God in all things. It is another matter altogether to provoke us to consider the truthfulness of God's promise of eternal life. I just don't see how that fits into all of your reasoning.

Please do not take this personally, brother. I simply think that Martin Luther, if this is what he was trying to get at, was VERY wrong with this sort of suggestion. Jesus didn't risk eternity in Hell when He made the decision to be the perfect, sacrificial Lamb for us. After all, He knows the End from the Beginning. More importantly: We are supposed to trust God's Word...not to question it.

:-(

Christ entertained the idea of eternal damnation for himself, the sinless one. When He took on the penalty for sin, he took it willingly as though it was an everlasting penalty. Remember, while on earth, retaining his omniscience Christ forsook knowledge of some things future (Mark 13:32).

Old_Joe,
I would have to agree with the others on this point and another scripture I would point out is in John 17 when Christ prayed for the Father to restore to Him the glory which He had with Him from the beginning. I would also point out the passages when Christ spoke of going to prepare a place for those who followed Him (and that place was not in Hell).

Hi Joe...

The funny thing is that I am one of the very few here who believes that salvation cannot be lost, which is very likely a major factor causing the fear of reception of this doctrine. Those who think salvation can be lost are very concerned with any thought of displacing their position.

Those who understand that salvation cannot be lost generally don't have any problems with displacing their position in Christ and therefore grasp the concept quite easily.

In addition, I have a concern with your declaration that "...[i]those of us who understand that salvation cannot be lost[/i]..." You might want to change your statement to "...[i]and those of us who [u]are persuaded[/u] that our salvation cannot be lost[/i]..." Some of us are very much persuaded that a person who has met the Lord...called upon Him in truth...can still be tempted back to their old life or "run ahead" of the teachings of Christ. According to 2 John, the end of such a person is not pretty. Were they ever truly saved? I don't know.

Regardless of a discussion about "eternal security," your original question in this thread seems to introduce a hypothesis of "uncertain security." If it is an act of trust to doubt God's Word about the New Covenant that He has promised us...then how can we say that we are living by faith?

:-(

The funny thing is that I am one of the very few here who believes that salvation cannot be lost, which is very likely a major factor causing the fear of reception of this doctrine. Those who think salvation can be lost are very concerned with any thought of displacing their position.

Actually, I do believe in the Perseverance of the Saints (or the Preservation of the Saints as I understand it), yet this is not the doctrine in question. I was responding to your doctrine that says: "Christ entertained the idea of eternal damnation for himself, the sinless one. When He took on the penalty for sin, he took it willingly as though it was an everlasting penalty. Remember, while on earth, retaining his omniscience Christ forsook knowledge of some things future (Mark 13:32)."

This is a dangerous idea, and not scripturally substantiated, so I would advise changing your position on the issue based in part on the scriptures that have already been mentioned that blatantly contradict your idea.

Christ entertained the idea of eternal damnation for himself, the sinless one. When He took on the penalty for sin, he took it willingly as though it was an everlasting penalty. Remember, while on earth, retaining his omniscience Christ forsook knowledge of some things future (Mark 13:32). This included not knowing the end of the sacrifice He was about to make. Though He knew He would be three days in the heart of the earth Matt 12:40, as far as He was concerned at that time, His sacrifice and payment was a dedication to eternal damnation. THIS is what caused the sweat of blood. The very thought of that to be done on one’s behalf, ought to cause one to melt in their steps. Nevertheless, it was of the Father’s good will that Christ is not there still. That is the good will that the believer can trust even as Christ through His human nature trusted, to the very depths of hell, and back again.

Patently absurd.

Mat 27:63 Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.

There was never any question of His expectations, Jesus stated on more then one occasion that He would rise again. He absolutely knew the outcome of His sacrifice before hand ..

[i]Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.[/i]

[i]No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.[/i]

The funny thing is that I am one of the very few here who believes that salvation cannot be lost, which is very likely a major factor causing the fear of reception of this doctrine. Those who think salvation can be lost are very concerned with any thought of displacing their position.

Quite an assumption there, might not the opposite be true, that it makes one proud and presumptive, suspicious of others and sets themselves up as isolated iconoclasts? ...

This 'doctrine' you espouse is based upon a hypothetical question that is part hyperbole and part thought provoking- Redundantly, some of us are [i]getting[/i] the general premise but the logic and means, the pragmatic ends are patently false within the original question. To draw off of a 'what if' scenario is one thing ... to make it a doctrine when it's a flat contradiction of the character and nature of who God is, what the Lord has done and intends, is to put Him in a corner and force His hand.

There are so many problems with this whole thing, many that are being brought out here, that it is rather odd just what it is you are after, after all.

How far do you wish to push this? The sacrifice you are advocating is practically to displace Christ Himself if this was to continue in these extremes. Take it to it's logical ends - What need of Christ [i][b]if[/b][/i] we were to give up our own selves ... [i]even for another[/i] and be cast into damnation for all eternity - Even Abraham was spared Issac and the Lord [i]Himself[/i] provided [i]the sacrifice[/i]. I know this isn't lost on you and may not be your intention, but for the sake of others, do you even care to entertain the concerns of those, esteem them better than yourself or is it just one constant rebuttal ....

Talk is cheap, I have lived similar things.

You are being contentious brother. What you linked to came readily to mind even at the time I so foolishly attempted to paint something of an illustration, coming back later only to wish I almost hadn't bothered at all. It was limited, an attempt to give this some perspective, some food for thought. Something paradoxical in your statement there; If talk is cheap, how does it apply then to this hypothetical question? and if you have lived similar things are we to take that on gratis not knowing what they are, what you have indeed lived? If this is part and parcel of your motivation and intention on the framing of this question in the first place, why not tell us rather than leaving us guessing. It leaves all this in a sort of underlying 'you do not what I have been through and therefore cannot accept my argument', it's woven throughout these replies. Far be it from me to even hint at discounting your experience, [i]similar things[/i] to that compared to there? Why, out with it brother!

Again, I think we all are missing each other here in misunderstanding and miscommunication, unwilling to [i]bend[/i], hear each other and have gone on to contention, insinuations and the like. I am assured I have contributed just as much, even in this response - bring the corrections, they are desired - But there is no need for squaring off and being offended over all this [i]at each other[/i] ...

Pride. Deadly, dastardly ... bastar ..dly. Listen to us. Time for a revisit first for my own self;

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=10733&forum=34&post_id=&refresh=Go]Jonathan Edwards - Undiscerned Spiritual Pride[/url]

I thought about this, and i later read this short excerpt from Ryles book, and it struck me it is the other way around. "will a holy man go to hell?"

no, ill post the excerpt for your consideration in the opposite , do you follow? :-)

"Every man who has his hope in Christ, purifies himself." 1 John 3:3

Suppose for a moment, that you were allowed to enter heaven without holiness. What would you do? What possible enjoyment could you feel there? To which of all the saints would you join yourself—and by whose side would you sit? Their pleasures are not your pleasures, their tastes are not your tastes, their character not your character. How could you possibly be happy in heaven—if you had not been holy on earth?

Now you love the company of the frivolous and careless, the worldly-minded and the covetous, the reveler and the pleasure-seeker, the ungodly and the profane. There will be none such in heaven! Now you think that the people of God are too strict and particular and serious. You rather avoid them. You have no delight in their society. But remember, there will be no other company in heaven.

Now you think that praying and Scripture reading, and hymn singing, are dull and melancholy and stupid work. But remember, the inhabitants of heaven rest not day and night, saying, "Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty!" and singing the praise of the Lamb! How could an unholy man find pleasure in such an environment as this?

An unholy man would feel like a stranger in a land he knew not, a black sheep amid Christ's pure flock. The song of angels and archangels, and all the company of heaven—would be a language he could not understand! The very air would seem an air he could not breathe! I know not what others may think, but to me it does seem clear—that heaven would be a miserable place to an unholy man! It cannot be otherwise.

People may say, in a vague way—that they "hope to go to heaven after they die." But surely, they do not consider what they say. We must be heavenly-minded, and have heavenly tastes, in the present life—or else we shall never find ourselves in heaven, in the life to come.

Are you holy? I do not ask whether you attend your church regularly, whether you have been baptized, or whether you profess to be a Christian. Are you yourself holy this very day—or are you not? Why do I ask so straightly, and press the question so strongly? I do it because the Scripture says, "Without holiness no man shall see the Lord." It is written—it is not my imagination; it is the Bible—not my private opinion; it is the Word of God—not of man: "Without holiness no man shall see the Lord." (Heb. 12:14).

Alas, what searching, sifting words are these! I look at the world—and see the greater part of it lying in wickedness. I look at professing Christians—and see the vast majority having nothing of Christianity, but the mere name. I turn to the Bible and I hear the Spirit saying, "Without holiness no man shall see the Lord." Surely it is a text which ought to make us solemnly consider our ways, and search our heart.

You may say, that "if you were so holy—you would be unlike other people." I answer, "I know it well. It is just what you ought to be. Christ's true servants were always unlike the world around them—a holy nation, a separate people—and you must be so too, if you would be saved!" You may say, "at this rate very few will be saved!" I answer, "I know it. It is precisely what Jesus told us in His sermon on the mount—Strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leads unto life, and few there are who find it!" Few will be saved, because few will take the trouble to seek salvation--men will not deny themselves the pleasures of sin for a little season.

You may say, "these are hard sayings; the way is very narrow!" I know it is. The Lord Jesus said so eighteen hundred years ago. He always said that men must take up the cross daily, and that they must be ready to cut off hand or foot, if they would be His disciples. That religion which costs nothing—is worth nothing!

Old_Joe wrote:

rbanks wrote:
Joe,

Jesus has not asked me this question and I see no where in the bible that he has asked anyone else either. Hell was created for the devil and his angels.

Joe, I am very concerned about you. You probably don’t care right now anyway but I am having a hard time finding any humility in your writings. Look at what you are writing in all your posts, you seem to be hard with the truth you know and superior to everyone else’s writings. The bible says that we are to speak the truth in Love.

Hebrews 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

I don’t know if you realize the tone of your writings. From your writings it seems like you have been told to leave a church. I hope you the best and I pray you are not carrying any bitterness from your past. I mean no harm by writing this and if I have misread your posts please forgive me.

In Christ Love!

Looks like I should give out a hint here.

Hell was created for the Devil and his angels, but did the Son of God not willingly go there at His Father's command?

If there are no other responses, I will explain with my next post.

BTW: I forgive you.

Old Joe

Dear Joe,

I have decide to re post something I had posted earlier in this thread in which you also replied.

I also would like for you to know that I am praying for you and I am also willing by his grace to forgive you for misrepresenting our Lord Jesus Christ and trying to lead others away from the true word of God into heresy.

Quote Joe
"Christ entertained the idea of eternal damnation for himself, the sinless one. When He took on the penalty for sin, he took it willingly as though it was an everlasting penalty. Remember, while on earth, retaining his omniscience Christ forsook knowledge of some things future (Mark 13:32). This included not knowing the end of the sacrifice He was about to make. Though He knew He would be three days in the heart of the earth Matt 12:40, as far as He was concerned at that time, His sacrifice and payment was a dedication to eternal damnation."
Quote

This is plain out right heresy and no where to be found in the glorious gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Joh 18:4 Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye?

Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Ac 2:25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
Ac 2:26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
Ac 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Ac 2:28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.

Joh 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

Mt 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

Mt 20:18 Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death,
Mt 20:19 And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and the third day he shall rise again.

I am praying that you will consider the scriptures and repent.

In Christ Love.

Hi Mike :-)

I wanted to suggest a few things in relation to this following...

"But there is no need for squaring off and being offended over all this at each other ..."

But it almost seems as though [b]offense[/b] was a built in conclusion, God forbid [u]even an intention[/u] at the inception of this?

There are different kinds of people that profess to be Christians, and each react differently when prodded in manners outside their beaten paths. It is kind of like the difference between a bell and an old burlap sack. If one takes a stick and strikes a bell, unable to deny itself, it cries out with much loudness about how it was offended; whereas if one strikes a sack, the sack patiently and quietly yields to the blow.

Now it is obvious that there are a whole bunch of ringing bells here, but I encourage everyone to take a lesson from the sack and yield to the will of God, come what may.

Does someone have a stick called 'the will of God' and authority to beat others with it until they determine if they are submitted or not? Is that right?

Nearly right before that he said,

I did not start this thread see you write down whether you are or aren't willing to deny yourself, because your writing of it most often proves meaningless.

After you had suggested to him to not be surprised at the kind of responses he was getting(that is, in the context of the kind of question he was asking people) he said

"I have learned to expect it."

Joe

may i say, sometimes it is good for us to say maybe i was wrong. Maybe my beliefs dont line up with scripture on some point. This is a good realization since then we can adjust to the right belief. And apply it to our life.

I just get a very strong feeling from this thread sometimes we so defend and have our excuses just as Adam in the garden had. And in this case all the explonations and all posting has lead to?

heresy from your part and discussion that to some has not been edifying.

All can be avoided vith humility and learning to say, you may be right and i maybe was wrong.

But so often just as Adam we blame someone else, or something else.

Not speaking as i have reached the goal, but just sharing something i hope you might consider.

God bless you

Christian

My own corrective:

and sets themselves up as isolated iconoclasts? ...

A bit much, unecessary and regretable. Forgive that, forgive me.

Leaving here earlier, another off hand thought. As it pertains to the Lord and His death and ressurection and without too much extrapolation of His own volition, His submission, the mutability of agreement with the Father, His own power to both lay down and take up ... The thought occured to me, was it not more so that he was [i]put through hell[/i] ...

so to speak ... ?

Old_Joe, are you listening to anything that anyone is saying to you here?

It is not persecution to suffer because we are willfully persisting and striving for our own opinions over the corrections of others.

The very willingness of Christ through His human nature to dedicate himself to eternal damnation was taken by the Father as the deed itself.

"Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [i]him[/i] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [i]his[/i] seed, he shall prolong [i]his[/i] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand."

- Isaiah 53:10(KJV)

Again, I see no correspondence here between the character and nature of your words and what is written in the Bible, or with the initial question that you appear to be willing to continue to strive over.

...anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

Bold words from a man that continues to fill pages upon pages with his own words.

If you speak for God who could argue with you.

But if you have been here speaking for yourself then, well.

So you are sending Christ to the cross with the mindset of "only three more days and I'm done". Doesn’t that sound terribly cheap to you?

--------------

you will understand by watching these two very short videos posted in another thread.

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30WzomEaDYs]How Jesus' One Death Satisfied Billions of Deaths[/url]

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgrWIbuR-mM&feature=channel_page]How Jesus Paid for the Sins of All Mankind in 3 hours[/url]

Joe,

I have taken a portion of your quote above ("This included not knowing the end of the sacrifice He was about to make.")as unscriptural concerning his sacrifice.

You have stated that this included that Jesus did not Know the end of the sacrifice He was about to make. Why would you say this when He said that he would be crucified and on the third day rise from the dead. He was not afraid that his sacrifice would not be accepted. He was not afraid that the Father would not raise Him from the dead. He has never been separated from His Father. He knew that the separation was going to come at the cross because of Him bearing the sins of the world but he also knew that the Father would not ultimately forsake Him. He knew that he was condemning our sins in the flesh because he had never sinned. He knew that he was not going to be condemned to hell. He knew what the Father's will was for Him all the time.

The only Hell that He went through was coming down here in a sinful world, suffering at hands of sinners, bearing our sins to the cross, and dying a horrible death that we deserved. He did experience the horribleness of sins penalty and a brief moment of separation from His Father but the moment He cried it is finished and gave up His Spirit to His Father the penalty was paid in full. He went to hell with his Father with Him as always and rescued the righteous (made righteous by the blood of His Cross) taking the keys away from Satan. The only reason He went to hell was to take back from Satan what was His in the first place. He has the keys to death, hell, and the grave.

The sacrifice was finished on the cross meaning the complete atonement for the sins of the whole world and hell added nothing to our redemption.

The will of the Father for Jesus was to be sacrificed on the cross and it was never to be condemned to hell. Being condemned to hell can save no one because it would be separation from God eternally.

The preaching of the cross is the power of God to them that believe; not the preaching of being willing to be condemned to hell.

We would all be condemned to hell if Jesus had not come to save us. We deserve to be condemned but thank God he didn't come to condemn us but to save us by the work of the cross. Let us take up the cross and follow Him.

We could say that he died as a condemned man to hell in our place and even felt what that would be like but he knew what his sacrifice would accomplish in the end and had no doubt that God would raise Him from the dead. Praise His Name!

Hi Joe...

Severity of judgment? Brother, I think that enough is enough. I know that you might not agree with what ChrisJD said...but wishing judgment upon Him (or yourself) is quite a bold declaration. You might not like it if it were to happen...and it is certainly not Christ-like.

It might be time for this thread to just die.

:-(

Hi Joe...

Yet that is reflective of the old covenant! We have a covenant where we bless those who curse us...and do good to those who spitefully use us.

In this case, you are asking God to severely judge the one who is wrong. In this case, I think that you are wrong...but I wouldn't wish severe judgment on you at all (or upon ChrisJD if he is wrong).

Brother, God does not send people to Hell who call upon Him in truth. In addition, we should strive to reflect a I Corinthians chapter 13 type of love.

:-)

Old_Joe,

I pray that the Lord Himself judge between us in the fullest severity of His judgment. Are you willing to give that a hearty amen?

The scripture says that if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged(1 Co 11:31) and king David, in the Psalms, prays unto the Lord, saying

"...enter not into judgment with thy servant: for in thy sight shall no man living be justified."

Old_Joe, it is certain that I can be wrong, and wherever I'm wrong, I believe that I would want the Lord to correct me in His gentelness and goodness and compassion.

I remember how it is writen in Isaiah,

"For I will not contend forever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls [i]which[/i] I have made.

- Isaiah 57:18(KJV)

Yesturday as I was walking home, I noticed a sticker on a car that said,

"my Karma ran over my Dogma"

As I read that, I thought of how it seemed appropriate for this thread, or of how it could be, of how we could allow a sense of contentment with whatever may be to run over things which the Bible is dogmatic about and our own concern about them.

I think, for instance, that the Bible is dogmatic, that we should be very concerned about offending others(Mat 18:7, Pro 18:9), or of causing them to sin or to stumble in faith, or in doing so in the things that we teach(James 3:1-2).

I think too that the Bible is very dogmatic about the dangers of causing divisions among Christians, or of doing things to harm the Church(Pro 6:19, Rom 16:17, 1 Co 3:10-17).

It seems to me that the Bible points out a great many things for us, as being dangerous, or harmful, to ourselves and to others, and it seems also that this is for our good. It doesn't seem possible then, to honor God, and ignore them also.

Old_Joe, whatever you may wish for me, I wish for you that God would bless you, and that He would protect you, and keep you from harm.

May God's love be with you all.

[i]edited to add the word 'in' to the 4th paragraph from the bottom[/i]

As pointed out above, for the sacrifice to satisfy eternal damnation for men, His human nature could not know, and His divine nature must needs forsake that knowledge for a time to make a COMPLETE sacrifice.

Old_Joe, where is [b]any of that[/b] written in the Bible? Are you making this up?

The Lord Jesus said

[b][color=660000]My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.
[/color][/b]

While the Lord Jesus was upon the cross, it is written that He said to one that was on a cross next to Him:

[b][color=660000]Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise. [/color][/b]

His means of arriving at the point are off ...

Sounds familiar.

For someone with a great deal of Puritan aspirations behind him as is evidenced by your site, where did your sense of superiority in straightening everyone out come from?

You are not the first nor likely the last to come in as a one man army, refuting and contending (contentiously) with your own Brethren in this setting.

I had to rethink a great deal of this whole matter - look back over the amount and level of accusations you have stamped upon others here. Everything from blindness to insinuations of the character of individuals who you do not know. It's your verbiage sprinkled about - 'meaningless', 'cheap talk', 'ringing bells'- It's quite incredulous and haughty, presumptive. The Mighty Mouse syndrome, [i]I have come to save the day[/i] that this forum has experienced time and again.

This post originally, on it's face, was enough to spark all kinds of contention - All over a hypothetical posit that is flawed in it's origins - it is just not going to happen according to the scriptures nor according to all that has been expressed by many here, whatever nuances excepted. But just the [i]character[/i] of Who we are talking about in doing such a hypothetical is not easily dismissed by the pragmatic manner or end or point or musing that was sought after.

The attempt to at least give the benefit of the doubt, 'entertain' the idea for your sake has been only met with one rebuttal after another and more insinuations and contorting of intentions and accusations.

[i]That will be hard for you to do since you are not willing to take up the cross in its entirety.[/i]

As evidence. Who are you to say?

[i]But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.[/i]

[i]But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.[/i]

Applicable regardless and we all stand guilty for our own participation and continuances of this skewered question turned even more ridiculous.

It's not the last word by any stretch and the temptation is to just close this and it may still come to that. I have returned volley here because you have been so obstinate Old Joe, yet we still do not know many things that you alluded to and have chosen to keep to yourself. That's fine if it is your prerogative but to level the charges you have, to admit to nothing of your own contributions, to do nothing but respond as you have with this sense of superiority ...

You may have the last word.

Of course you only desire gentleness, goodness and compassion, that is what Oprah expects from God as well. The true child of God is prepared for anything that the Lord may send.

Cynicism and sarcasm retorted to a very sincere and humble man who has been the epitome of levelheadedness, patient response, a true blessing in these parts for some years now. That you managed to dishevel him from his more normative moorings says much more about you and your turning everything into a dispute, an insinuation ...

The level of pride you exhibit is beyond your ability to even consider, quite remarkable.

This exercise has ran it's course and will be locked.

1Co 10:12

Greetings all,

I want to say first that I want to honor Mike's offer to give Old_Joe here the last word and have every intention of giving place to that.

Since this has continued on somewhat and the question continues to be put to me, I hope that I can offer one more response and hope that it will be of some use for those that may be reading this.

Of course you only desire gentleness, goodness and compassion, that is what Oprah expects from God as well. The true child of God is prepared for anything that the Lord may send.

The Psalmist said,

"Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD forever."

And I do not think I should pray amiss if I were to say with the Prophet Habbakuk "...in wrath remember mercy".

The Apostle Paul says, "Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God" with the promise of goodness to those that continue in God's goodness.

I think rather that the child of God is called to look unto that which God has promised and not rather to put Him to the test.

Old_Joe, I truely, so far as I can tell in my heart, wish you no harm, neither that even a hair upon your precious head should perish. I am fully persuaded that, being made in the image of God, there is much to find to love about you.

I hope that you will wish the same for me.

May God richly bless you Old_Joe.