I have thought about this for a long time. I really don't think that smoking is a sin. is it ?? I saw an orthodox jew smoking the other day and I thought hmmm if anyone knows the law its gotta be him. So I think smoking is not a sin what do you guys think?????
I think it falls in the catagory of 'all things are lawful but not all things are expedient'.
moose34 wrote:
I have thought about this for a long time. I really don't think that smoking is a sin. is it ?? I saw an orthodox jew smoking the other day and I thought hmmm if anyone knows the law its gotta be him. So I think smoking is not a sin what do you guys think?????
You should know yourself if it a sin to smoke. Go into your heart and you'll find the answer your looking for.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel After those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, And on their heart also will I write them: And I will be to them a God, And they shall be to me a people.
Know all you need to do is obey and that's the hard part.
Yes I feel that an occasional cigarette and occasional drink is ok. I don't think that making a habit of it is good. Like how it says drunkards shall not inherit the kingdom, But it sure would take a lot of drinking to make one a drunkard.
moose34,
I think the more important question one must ask one's self, is whether or not they are seeking God with their whole heart. If you can honestly answer yes to that question, all others take care of themselves. If you are seeking Him with all your heart, He is able to let you know if there is something you are doing that is interfering with that pursuit. On the other hand if you are not seeking Him with all your heart, it is easy to get sidetracked by all the issues thinking it is a matter of getting all the issues right so you can then be pleasing to God.
There is really only one thing that is pleasing to God, that you seek Him with all your heart. Anything short of that is short of what He wants to do in and through a person's life. I have heard it referred to as 'majoring on the minor's and in so doing we 'minor on the major'.
One must settle that issue and make it a priority or it simply will not be. I have been guilty for years of putting God in the mix of all I was seeking. So I'm not just pointing fingers here. What I say I say from recent experience. There is no substitute if you want all of what God has for your life.
Awesome. So like being rich or having a big fancy house or new furniture or a brand new expensive flashy car? It kinda fits into that category right???? I kinda hear what you're saying basically anythig that gets in the way??
Hey,
I hope this verse helps: Rom 14:5-6
One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God.
moose34 wrote:
Awesome. So like being rich or having a big fancy house or new furniture or a brand new expensive flashy car? It kinda fits into that category right???? I kinda hear what you're saying basically anythig that gets in the way??
[b][color=000099]Anything - [/color]
Smoking would be a sin if it's idolatry-cigarette-worship, a fetish, and the WAY, the ANSWER that we use. He is the only way, truth, and life.
I mean, if a sodomite (gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgendered, masturbator) just did it one time WITH the plan of continuing it (committing it proudly), would we have the same compassion? No, we wouldn't. We would call that person a heathen.
For instance, using a practical example of friends, this is similar to the relationships between two friends or boy/girl relations. Just like with having a "best" friend or something "best", that friend becomes an idolatry. My sin with all the different people is that the "best" was actually an idol, a god that I had created, the PRIDE of life. It's being a respecter of persons (sin) or committing favoritism.
What commandment is broken here with committed smoking?
Exodus 20:3
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
The Law is righteous but will just show you that you are messed up and can't help yourself. Satan desires to trap people in the mode where that are convinced of what is best...but settle for something less...it effects a clear conscience which is further used to manipulate compromise.
We love HIM because HE first loved us right? GOD desires a cheerful giver right? EVERY good and perfect give comes from GOD right?
I see in these verses and more that the life in Christ, has Christ as the sole source. The Law was just a way to communicate and convince us our need of what (before the foundations of the universe) GOD had planned to achieve the goal of giving a gift to The SON, creatures that were able to see and worship HIM in truth.
As for smoking, drinking, gluttony, or any drive on our part to seek to find comfort in the flesh (for a season)when there is a HOLY dissatisfaction that can not be met by anything in this world (food, wealth, drugs, knowledge, sex, ANYTHING). There is no condemnation. HE knows our weakness...yet in the midst of these little battles for truth...HE is reaching to turn your eyes to HIMSELF, HIS life, and surrender...and the enemy is seeking to turn your eyes to disbelief, discouragement, and surrender.
Brokenness is more painful then condemnation...and condemnation is not what you think it is, or even feel it might be. Don't settle for less, even if it hurts.
HE who began a good work in you will not fail...no matter the choices we make, what we sow, anything according to the will of man. Cling to HIS love, pursue it. Sin will abound...but grace abounds greater to help us turn around, HE died for us while we were yet HIS enemies! From faith to faith, strength to strength, glory to glory, is HIS victory not ours.
Wow ! So anything could and could not be a sin. Right?? Could be a good thing or a bad thing. Like reading books or buying cd's or dirt bikes or sports or having a favorite sports team. It makes sense. Because sometimes people get all into something that even thier clothes reflect the actual worship ( like Hip-Hop or Rock ) Is that right???
Hi moose34...
Have you considered I Corinthians 3:16-17?
Whereas it is difficult to argue that a natural beverage that ferments (such as wine) could harm the body (...and many studies point to the opposite),[b]KJV[/b]
[b]16[/b] Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?[b]17[/b] If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
[b]NIV[/b]
[b]16[/b] Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you?[b]17[/b] If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God's temple is sacred, and you are that temple.
[b]NASB[/b]
[b]16[/b] Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?[b]17[/b] If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
That being said: I know men who smoked. C. S. Lewis smoked a pipe. Other famous preachers smoked cigars. But this was before the link between smoking and the destruction of the body was scientifically confirmed.
You are going to get a lot of opinions in a place like this. Yet if I were you, I would certainly pray about whether or not you think that it is appropriate or becoming of a child of God to smoke. What is the reason a person would smoke? Can anything good come from it at all – other than a temporary feeling of relaxation…that could be enjoyed by intimacy with Christ?
I will be praying for you, brother.
:-)
As a former smoker, I can tell you what the Holy Spirit used to convict me of the need to quit. It was 1 Corinthians 6:12
All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
Every time I lit a cigarette after the Holy Spirit prompted me with that Scripture, I realized I was enslaved to it. Smoking is not a "sin" per se, but it is bondage, and you can not experience the liberty of Christ, while you consent to remain in bondage. I hope that helps.
As a former smoker, I can tell you what the Holy Spirit used to convict me of the need to quit. It was 1 Corinthians 6:12
All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
Every time I lit a cigarette after the Holy Spirit prompted me with that Scripture, I realized I was enslaved to it. Smoking is not a "sin" per se, but it is bondage, and you can not experience the liberty of Christ, while you consent to remain in bondage. I hope that helps.
Is smoking a sin... no, but destroying one's health and wasting one's finances might be.
Are cigarettes habit forming (addictive)... Yes.
Are they dangerous to one's health? Absolutely!
Are they expensive? Yep!
God has made you a STEWARD of your body and your belongings to use them to glorify God! Can anyone glorify God through the consumption, addiction, and waste cause by smoking cigarettes?
Is smoking a sin?
That depends. If one sincerely believes something to be either a legitimate detriment to his health, or finances, usefulness to others, or the honor of God whom he represents, then yes, it is.
The same is true of coffee, red meat, and anything else existing in material form. Suppose a man thinks an occasional steak maintains his health. He is then free to eat and be full, and thank the Lord with a good conscience for his meal. Contrarily, if that man eats five steaks a week at $25 a sitting, while being convinced this diet is harming both his body and his willingness to share generously with others - and yet goes on in the habit - then it is a sinful practice which must be stopped.
One may be surprised to learn that tobacco was considered by some in the 17th century to offer valuable medicinal benefits. Pipe smoking was recommended as an effective treatment for migraines, as noted in Daniel Defoe's classic, 'Robinson Crusoe.' Under these impressions such smokers were by no means guilty of sin. This is because believers have freedom in Christ to partake in every creature, provided doing so is not an impediment to Christian love. It is the mark of a heretic to forbid others to eat meats or to marry. [1 Tim. 4:3-5] We ought not to forbid smoking, per se, but to warn against any knowledgeable abuse of the physical body, which is unloving towards those we might have ministered to with our full strength.
Confronting the issue of chemical addictions and deeply set habits is overwhelming for many. They have tried so many methods without success, even praying and fasting at length, and resort to frightening themselves and making rash oaths. Fear of God's anger or the disapproval of others may hold one off for a time. But fear is a weak motive and often proves inferior to strong cravings.
The real problem lies in having insufficient motives for quitting negative habits. Until one's motive to stop exceeds the motive to continue, there will be no permanent resolve. What motive is capable of providing enough strength to abstain entirely from something one enjoys? Only a superior satisfaction in the benefits of abstaining from it.
In the case of harmful habits, one needs true conviction that his abstinence is for the best of God and others, rather than for himself. His unwillingness stems from a depravity of sincere brotherly love, which ought to be mourned for, but not despaired over. God is powerful to change hearts: on His resume is the creation of new and clean ones. Those who have repeatedly fought and fallen before temptation may place hope in the One who "renews a steadfast spirit within." [Psm 51:10] It is more love that is needed, and such love is a fruit of the Spirit [Gal 5]. He has power to produce that virtue in everyone who faithfully attends the means of grace.
In conclusion, habitual sin is conquered by superior desires to love God and others. This love cannot be urged from one's natural self, therefore must be supernaturally wrought by the Spirit in believers. This work was purchased by Christ, and is received by faith. As a Christian rests in Christ's righteousness to appropriate his sanctification, he receives a transformation of heart through the means of prayer and the Word.
I exhort every addict to find his superior satisfaction in loving God and men, and to draw nerve-calming peace from the promises of Christ, the [i]Stimulus Ultimum
My two cents. God bless you.
Hi theopenlife...
I understand what you're trying to say...but there is a world of difference between smoking cigarettes and eating red meat. The Scriptures are clear that red meat is fine...and science has proven that the protein provided by red meat...or wine...and even coffee in moderation. Yet there are NO scientific studies that sing the virtues of cigarettes. EVERY study describes such things as being harmful to human beings.That depends. If one sincerely believes something to be either a legitimate detriment to his health, or finances, usefulness to others, or the honor of God whom he represents, then yes, it is.The same is true of coffee, red meat, and anything else existing in material form. If a man thinks an occasional steak maintains his health, then praise God. He may eat and be full, and thank the Lord with a good conscience. Contrarily, if he eats five steaks a week at $25 a sitting, while being convinced that this is harming both his body and his willingness to share generously with others - and yet goes on in the habit - then it is sinful habit which must be stopped.
Tobacco was considered by some in the 17th century to offer certain medicinal benefits. Pipe smoking was recommended as an effective treatment for migraines, as noted in Daniel Defoe's classic, Robinson Crusoe.
Smoking kills the body (or yourself and others). The Bible is pretty clear about a person who destroys his body. That is why I included the passage from I Corinthians chapter 3.
Of course, that, in itself, might not answer the initial question. Instead of comparing cigarettes with red meat or coffee, why not compare it with marijuana or heroin? Yet I have no idea if this is sinful enough to prohibit a person from going to Heaven. I do believe, however, that a smoker needs to stop. He is killing himself and those around him.
:-(
No, Chris, my friend, you are mistaken. What makes cigarettes [i]unhealthful[i]knowing it
If a man believes red meat is harmful and eats it, he sins whether or not it really is. If a man thinks his milk is poisonous and yet drinks it, he sins. But if a man unwittingly drinks poisoned milk, he has not sinned. If a man does anything with the assumption that he is seriously and needlessly endangering himself, he sins because he violates his conscience, not because the activity does or does not pose any actual dangers.
"EVERY study describes such things as being harmful to human beings."
You're right, but if one does not know or believe the studies, then they may not be [i]sinning
Hi theopenlife...
Yes, I think we are saying the same thing. The cigarettes are not sinful. They are just a bunch of ingredients added together by an industry intent on helping addicts feel a alteration to their body. This is no different than heroin...or marijuana...or even tylenol. The difference isn't that cigarettes alter the body...but that cigarettes are created with an effect that destroys the body (of both the user and the people around the user).
This is very different than red meat. Red meat is proven to have certain advantages when used in moderation. The same is true of wine...and even coffee.
I don't know if there is a smoker in the West who is unaware of the diseases caused by smoking. Yet the Word of God is clear that a man who destroys his temple (his body), then God will destroy such a man. Yes, this must be done with knowledge or intent, but it is the act of smoking (the question asked in the first post) that causes such destruction. Is it sinful for a man to smoke? Like I said before, I don't know that it is for every person. Like you pointed out, there might be a person who is unaware that it is wrong...just like there could possibly be a person who thinks that other drugs might not be sinful.
The point? This brother asked a question which is (sort of) answered by I Corinthians chapter 3.
Thanks guys! Man all those points of view are good. Smoking is also seen as a worldly thing, even if it is not a sin, would I preach on the street holding a cigarette??? No unbeliever ever convicted me for eating pies or hamburgers, But when they saw me smoke they always say " Hey! You're a christian and why do you smoke? " I am feeling convicted to quit so that I can be blameless like it says in the bible. Thanks for all your answers guys I truly appreciate it !!!
Thanks guys! Man all those points of view are good. Smoking is also seen as a worldly thing, even if it is not a sin, would I preach on the street holding a cigarette??? No unbeliever ever convicted me for eating pies or hamburgers, But when they saw me smoke they always say " Hey! You're a christian and why do you smoke? " I am feeling convicted to quit so that I can be blameless like it says in the bible. Thanks for all your answers guys I truly appreciate it !!!
Hi moose34,
Amen ! I think you got it right. The truth is usually always straight, plain, simple and pleasing to the heart. Smoking per se may not be a sin, but if you get one of the least of our brethren into trouble because of his weakness you left the principle of love.
The law says thou shalt and thou shalt not. The Spirit seeks to confirm to God in the heart of the matter, how to love Him and your brother to the utmost.
God bless, you brother, God showed you something through His Spirit, rather than applying a law.
moose34 wrote:
Thanks guys! Man all those points of view are good.
Thanks for all your answers guys I truly appreciate it !!!
I am glad that you have found help in the comments that have been posted here. I am praying that you continue to seek to hear from God. If you truly desire to know Him and to know His will for your life, He will make His way clear.
I hear ya. I should also consider my love for my brothers and sisters as well and not be selfish. I got ya. There is soo much stuff, but the spirit simplifies things. Now I kinda understand why the Pharasies had so many laws. Without the spirit It sure can get complicated!!!
Moose,
Mind if I relate a true story?
I have an uncle, who is now in his late 80s. He was abused by his father when growing up. His dad chewed tobacco and all his sons tried it ... once. WW2 came along and Uncle enlisted in the Army to serve as a non-combatant. While serving in Europe he experienced narrow escapes from certain death that he knows were divinely orchestrated. In the meantime, he was smoking cigarettes. He came home unscathed and upon arrival his father met him and confession of abuse was made; forgiveness sought and granted. A few years later in 1955 Uncle came to the LORD. He accepted Jesus as his LORD and Saviour. When Uncle did this the LORD removed his desire for tobacco as well and has never desired it since. He remains humbly grateful for this deliverance. He readily acknowledges that his experience was unusual and that some will struggle with it even after coming to the LORD. But is it not significant the LORD removed this desire when he came to him and he was not even looking for it?
Something to consider...
Hope the LORD will give you the victory you desire....blessings to you,
ginnyrose
Smoking cigarettes is very harmful to your body just like alcohol and strong drink and eating unhealthy. Anything you put in your body that is harmful is sinful, anything that is addicting like smoking, sex, gambling, putting your self first, greedy, pride it is all sin, you compare this to the holy God of israel, come on smoking is a sin for the fact that you our harming yourself and others. God has put good and bad here on earth choose this day which one, but smoking is a clear sin to your body. It is pretty clear that Jesus didn't smoke.Look at the scriptures the lord will show you that smoking most definitely is not a holy part of him.
nice comments ginnyrose
i have to admit it.i smoke too.im a secret smoker and only a handful know it since i keep it well hidden from both the saved and unsaved but i want to be able to stop i just dont know how.ive smoked for probably 15 years and if it werent for the cravings that drive me insane id stop but heres where its really strange.if i am with people in poublic even for 8 hours i dont touch one and can go without but when i am alone i smoke every ten minutes because the cravings come mostly when im alone.god convicted me more than once about smoking but i dont seem to have any power over this.reading these posts makes me want to see that its possible even for me.please pray for me
I've discussed on here before that I like to have an occasional cigar, especially while hunting or camping.
The Lord has been dealing with my heart in a manner of which He has never dealt with me before. The last month has been a complete reformation for me.
I will no longer smoke an occasional cigar... not because it might be a sin, but because it's something that does not bring me any closer to God.
If something does not bring me closer to God, or does not enhance my relationship to Him, then I'm cutting it out of my life.
The same thing goes for alcohol... the occasional beer. Gone. Is it a sin? Not necessarily, but does it bring me closer to God? No. So why do it?
(We will still use wine for communion, there are scriptural reasons why)
I only want things that will be proactive in helping me draw closer to Him. Some of these things are not sins, but they are "idle"... and I dont want to idle in my walk with Him. I want to move forward.
Krispy
God bless you, anonymous. Do you not think that if the Holy Spirit convicts you he will also empower you to obey? Perhaps you really - in the core of your being - like it too much, hence your failure? May I suggest that you tell the LORD how you feel in your heart about it, that you need help to want to stop, that He needs to work in your heart to bring it to past. I would guess all of us, if we are honest, do not always want to relinquish our pet sins because of the satisfaction we derive from it. Once we realize this is what is happening we are driven to the foot of the cross and admit to the LORD our sin/weakness and beg for his supernatural working of regeneration in our heart.
God bless you....
ginnyrose
God bless you, Krispy. Your testimony is inspiring and a blessing.
Take good care of those little Kritters! :-) And what do they say about your change of behavior?
ginnyrose
It's never anything I ever did in front of the kids anyway.
Krispy
It's never anything I ever did in front of the kids anyway.
Ya sure they never suspected it? Kids have an uncanny way of knowing more about mom or dad then we realize...
Actually, Krispy, your testimony really encourages me. When I see loved ones falling away from God, I get discouraged and wonder why God is not working on people? Maybe I am looking at the wrong places?
God bless ya, Steve, and all dem little Kritters!:-)
ginnyrose
Actually, Krispy, your testimony really encourages me. When I see loved ones falling away from God, I get discouraged and wonder why God is not working on people? Maybe I am looking at the wrong places?
If they fall away from God then they never walked with God to begin with. Thats why we get frustrated when we see God "not working" on people... we think they are saved, but God thinks otherwise.
Krispy
Here's something I just found from a Zac poonen article and instantly thought of this thread.
"I was speaking to a Christian once who was smoking cigarettes. I asked him if he would ever smoke a cigarette inside a church building? He said he would never do that because a church building was the house of God. I told him that it was his body that was the house of God and not some church-building. You would not commit adultery inside a church-building, would you? You would not watch internet pornography inside a church either. Your body is the house of God, when Christ lives within. So be careful what you do with the members of your body. Habits like smoking, drinking, taking harmful drugs and allowing impure thoughts to enter your mind will gradually destroy your body and your mind."
http://www.cfcindia.com/web/mainpages/a_clear_gospel_message.php
KrispyKrittr wrote:
I've discussed on here before that I like to have an occasional cigar, especially while hunting or camping.
Not to steer you away from what you feel God is calling you to not do, for I have one of my own and can relate. But to try and make this point, it seems like too good an opportunity to pass up.
Though I do not know you personally, I know from reading your posts, that you take your Christianity seriously, that without a doubt, you love God. When I think of you enjoying an occasional cigar while camping, at least for me, it does not take away the respect I have for you as a Christian. The bottom line is that you truly love God.
Just to clarify, for those that will read this and think I mean that if we love God we can do whatever we want to; I'm not saying that at all. There are things we are not to do and things that are lawful, just not expedient. I think this is falls into the latter catagory as the one I have been challenged to lay aside does as well.
You confirm your love for Him as you reached the same decision I did; sure it is not wrong. Sure it does not keep me from loving God. But, it does not enhance my love for Him so it doesn't make the cut of acceptable things that I allow in my life on a regular basis. 'I will not be brought under the control of any.' (paraphrase)
I have found that as I discepline myself on the regular basis, that rare occasions present themselves that seem to be more of a gift than a temptation.
For what it is worth.
Just for your information, smokes and alcohol make serotonin (the feel good chemical) in our brain. Because your getting your serotonin artificially your body stops making serotonin naturally because too much is toxic. So should you try and quit smoking you will feel irritable for a while until your body starts naturally making it's own serotonin. My husband (unbeliever for now) is a pack a day 26 year smoker and gave up "cold turkey" for 4 months, he felt fantastic. His mistake was he thought he could just have 1 to 4 a day and control it but the saying "One smoke and I'll be back smoking" is soooo true. He is back to a pack but is going to quit soon but is now armed with that saying above. Also maybe look at the relationship between the cigarette as it makes you feel good (serotonin) when your alone, there is some association in your past here of perhaps feeling alone and it was the time you felt most down and sad and your looking for the feel good solution that comes from the cigarette (serotonin). Ask God He knows you better than anyone. God bless and remember you are never alone when you have the Holy Spirit to guide and comfort you, also ask for the fruit of the spirit called self control because in the natural it is alot of pressure and stress on yourself. :-)
moose34 wrote:
I have thought about this for a long time. I really don't think that smoking is a sin. is it ?? I saw an orthodox jew smoking the other day and I thought hmmm if anyone knows the law its gotta be him. So I think smoking is not a sin what do you guys think?????
This question is very easy for everyone to answer. Smoke as many cigarettes in this life as you are going to in the life to come. Light up here in exactly the same way you plan to when you are standing before the judgment seat of Christ. I like how someone put it: "If you [i]can
And that's the answer to the original question.
Koheleth wrote:
I like how someone put it: "If you[i]can[/i] still smoke, you should."
I don't know if this is what you're referring to or not, but Smyth Wigglesworth was asked by a lady who accepted Christ at one of his gatherings, something to the effect, 'Is is okay to drink' to which he said, 'Sure, drink all you like'. She asked if it was okay to play cards; he replyed, 'Sure, play cards all you like'.
His point was when we are full of God, we will not want to do a lot of things that we previously enjoyed. And in a way, if we're not full of God, the other realy doesn't matter.
This all reminds me of a testimony Keith Daniel gave of his friend, Will MacFarland. Mr. MacFarland was used in bringing a young couple to God, and afterwards, the couple asked if was sinful for them to go to a dance that evening. They had planned months in advance to go to the dance. Will said nothing, just something to the effect of, "Go to the dance, if you want to go.."
Once they got to the dance hall, and saw all the ungodly people dancing, they began to feel very uncomfortable. Eventually, they could no longer bear it, and decided to leave and to go the meeting where Will was speaking. After the meeting ended, they approached Will. He asked them how the dance went.
"Why didn't you tell us?" they said. "We left!"
Will said, "I wanted you to hear it from the Holy Spirit instead of me..."
Krispy, your posts in this thread are amazing. It is the finger of God on your life, and I am humbled. Brother, please forgive me for assuming the role of the Holy Spirit with you in the past. All it ever brought to the forum was debate and friction, but with the Holy Spirit there is never any debate, and God accomplishes in one nanosecond what multitudes of threads and frustrated discussions could never in a hundred years do.
I don't know if there is a smoker in the West who is unaware of the diseases caused by smoking. Yet the Word of God is clear that a man who destroys his temple (his body), then God will destroy such a man. Yes, this must be done with knowledge or intent, but it is the act of smoking (the question asked in the first post) that causes such destruction.
This same line of thought could (and perhaps should) be applied to food we eat, such as fast food, Little Debbies, cokes, candy, fried chicken, cake, etc... Far more people die each year due to clogged arteries and other dietary issues than from cigarettes or wine. I personally don't smoke or drink (anymore), but I'm not a big fan of the argument against these substances based on the idea that we're destroying the body.
Anything done in excess can be harmful to the body (even drinking too much water), so I think we must realize that if we take a stand against cigarettes and beer based on the fact that the continual abuse of these substances can be harmful to the body, then we should be mindful of our hypocrisy if we have unhealthy eating habits.
Will occasionally eating bacon on your egg biscuit kill you? Probably not, but eating it three times a day, every day, will bring harm to your body. Likewise, will occasionally smoking a cigarette, cigar or pipe kill you... probably not, but doing it three times a day everyday will certainly harm your body.
I've heard many sinners make comments like, "I'm tired of "church" people always condemning me for smoking or drinking because it destroys the body, but then that same "church" person goes and eats a Big Mac after church." How does the sinner view the "church" person...as usual, a hypocrite.
I would say that when we argue this issue from this perspective we must make the occasional bacon or fried fish as sinful as the occasional beer or cigarette.
I would say that when we argue this issue from this perspective we must make the occasional bacon or fried fish as sinful as the occasional beer or cigarette.
I understand your point, but this is completely unecessary. Why can't you instead rejoice that God has done a work in our brother's heart? Krispy's testimony hasn't provoked these replies; I think you are being overly defensive because of a deeper underlying issue.
PaulWest,
Thanks for seeing into the motives behind my comments... "deeper underlying issue"??? Come on, really?
My comments were not meant to be directed at Krispy's testimony, I rejoice with Krispy in the work God is doing in his life! Perhaps you should read the current posts on his "God has changed Krispy's life" thread and see that I meant no offense to him with my comments here. I was attempting to offer what I have noticed is a problem with our "destroy the body" arguement against cigarettes and beer. There are many reasons that God might convict a person of their need to stop smoking, drinking, or eating Happy Meals, but the one that is always put at people is that they're destroying their bodies. IF we argue from this perspective, then I would admonish you, me and everyone to take heed that we do it in truth and not hypocrisy. It is completely valid to take the stand against these substances from this perspective, but we must have speaking rights on the issue.
Krispy tells me that he has been a bit of a health "junky" over the past few years and watches what he eats, that's great! He has room to talk to others about the harm in eating or partaking of substances that destroy the body...if he should decide to do so. But if I'm 5'10, 350 lbs and love to eat pork rinds then I shouldn't be telling others that they're destroying their bodies when they drink an occasional beer or smoke a cigar when they play golf. I say this because of the terrible witness that it has been to so many "lost" people.
I do NOT defend anyone who smokes or drinks and I do all I can to discourage anyone from taking part in these habits. I've had family members who have died due to the abuses of these substances and I've seen too many people fall back into old lifestyles because they wouldn't severe their ties to such abuses...so, whatever underlying issues I might have (and I've got plenty in my life) I do not believe my comments earlier were an "overly defensive response" to any of them.
God Bless,
Buck
Hi graceamazed...
The difference, I suppose, is that even a Little Debbie snack cake hasThis same line of thought could (and perhaps should) be applied to food we eat, such as fast food, Little Debbies, cokes, candy, fried chicken, cake, etc... Far more people die each year due to clogged arteries and other dietary issues than from cigarettes or wine. I personally don't smoke or drink (anymore), but I'm not a big fan of the argument against these substances based on the idea that we're destroying the body.
You are correct in that we should be careful about what we pollute our bodies with. If we fill our bodies with Big Macs, bacon or Tasty Kakes, it is similar to those who get drunk on wine. The excess of what can be a good thing becomes destructive.
Yet cigarettes are ALWAYS destructive. There aren't any health benefits from an occasional cigarette. It is always destructive to those who inhale...and those who inhale the second-hand smoke that they emit into the air.
Is a cigarette a sin in and of itself? No, it is just tobacco processed into a stick (along with other chemicals). It is meant to feed an addiction or as a drug to calm nerves. The problem, however, is that it is always destructive. The Word of God is exceedingly clear about the end of a man who destroys his own body (the Temple of the Holy Spirit).
I can't pretend to know the extent of whether or not smoking is a sin. But I think that we would do well to consider the destruction that smoking causes to us and others.
Perhaps you should read the current posts on his "God has changed Krispy's life" thread and see that I meant no offense to him with my comments here. I was attempting to offer what I have noticed is a problem with our "destroy the body" arguement against cigarettes and beer.
What is excess for me may not be for you, and vice-versa...but I don't know of any man who can drink an ocassional beer or smoke an ocassional cigarette who has any divine power with God in the pulpit, or a venerable repuation among both believers and unbelievers after they discover his/her pasttime.
You are basically hinting that the hypocrisy of gluttony may be at play here, and I think this is an unecessary defensive tactic in light of Steve's testimony.
No friend, after reading some of the posts on this issue I thought I would share my experiences on the dangers of arguing from the perspective of "you're destroying the temple of God". There should have been no harm in doing so, I was not "hinting" that Steve was a hypocrite, I don't even know Steve. Sorry if anyone's feelings were hurt, but it should be alright to point such an issue out without being attacked as tactically implying anything or having underlying "issues" that lead me to be defensive. If I post something that is heretical or that is a personal attack on someone then I would welcome you (as a moderator) or any other brother on here to rebuke me. As it is, we've gotten away from the purpose of this thread, and I see little to gain by you and I arguing over this further.
Steve, sorry if you felt I was implying you were a hypocrite, this was not my intent.
PaulWest, sorry if I did a bad job of communicating what I thought was a profitable contribution to the discussion on this thread... I will try not to stir offense, if possible, in future posts.
God Bless,
Buck
PaulWest, sorry if I did a bad job of communicating what I thought was a profitable contribution to the discussion on this thread... I will try not to stir offense, if possible, in future posts.
The truth be told, I am really rejoicing that God did this work in Steve's life. I've known this brother for a few years here, and we've gone back and forth over this very topic. In recent times, I've just backed off, believing I was overstepping my boundaries as a brother...by usurping the role of the Holy Spirit in his life. I love Steve too much to be a stumbling block and a source of offense to him here.
I guess I was just scratching my head, thinking "hypocrisy"? "gluttony"? "doritos"? Come on, brother, just rejoice with us!
I sincerely apologize for blowing this thing into something it was never meant to be.
I still love Little Debbie, though. My wife always buys me Oatmeal Creme pies (and now it's Girl Scout cookie season). I'm in trouble! :)
Forgive me of my typeing skills im new at this stuff. i just wanted to share what God has done in me.I am a former smoker and when i was Born Again Of GOD ,i found it really hard to witness to people wile i was smoking a cigerette. i new it was wrong. "Old thing are passed away and behold all things have become new." I loved to smoke. and asked the Lord to take the desire away so that i could witness to those he put in my path.and he did give me such Grace that i can not define in words." ask and you shall recieve"
and i did .
What is excess for me may not be for you, and vice-versa...but I don't know of any man who can drink an ocassional beer or smoke an ocassional cigarette who has any divine power with God in the pulpit, or a venerable repuation among both believers and unbelievers after they discover his/her pasttime.
(Paul West, I posted this before I had a chance to see that you had edited your previous post, so sorry if the tone is a little confrontational still)
I would remind you that Christ came eating and drinking and was called a glutton and a drunkard.
I too love bacon and Little Debbies and Dr. Pepper...that is why I do not tell others that they must stop smoking an occasional cigarette because they are destroying their body. There are many other reasons that I argue that someone shouldn't smoke a cigarette, but I do not have the speaking rights to tell them it is because they are destroying their body (this is what I was trying to get at earlier, and apparently failed).
Maybe I could get my point across more effectively by asking why a person who smokes or drinks can not have a powerful pulpit ministry and destroys their reputation with the saints? If our answer is "because they are destroying the temple of God," then we, in all truth, MUST apply that same reasoning to other aspects of our life that are destroying our bodies. If, however, there is another reason that this destroys their ability to be used by God in the pulpit and harms their witness (such as the dependency they have to the substance or the lack of stewardship it shows in their ability to handle their finances) then let's point those issues out.
Once again, I do not smoke or drink even on occasion anymore, but its not because I was convicted that these items were destroying my body. I stopped because I feared I might be a stumbling block for a weaker brother in these areas (one who perhaps can't show temperance when drinking wine).
I have known many men of God who have been, and still are, used mightly by the divine power of God in pulpit ministry who have occasional glasses or wine or who smoke occasional cigars. I also know some that eat Oatmeal Creme pies. I don't believe we can jump to the conclusion that anyone who does these things can not be used mightly by God. If we do come to that conclusion, based on the arguement that they're destroying the temple of God, then you and I better both drop our "Twinkies" and repent as well. ;-)
seekhymm,
I rejoice with you for your testimony! Dependence to nicotine is a terrible addiction that surely takes the grace of God to overcome! I know it did in my life.
PaulWest,
I praise God that we can discuss these issues, even get a little frustrated with one another and still come back to our bearings as brothers in Christ who are seek to glorify the same Lord with our conversations and lifestyles! God bless you brother.
Buck
If we do come to that conclusion, based on the arguement that they're destroying the temple of God, then you and I better both drop our "Twinkies" and repent as well.
I don't know of any man who can do this, but you say you know some brothers who can get away with it. I'd like to hear their sermons, honestly. Maybe you can provide me with some links in PM land. It has been my experience that the Holy Spirit does not endorse open tobacco and/or alcohol use in mature believers and then back their ministries with life-giving unction. Not because He can't, but because their defiled consciences will erect obstacles to prevent it.
If you can swig a beer and smoke a cigarette...and then step into the pulpit and preach with a clean conscience and with divine unction, this also is good.
Now this is an arguement that I can get behind! Based on this foundation I will seek to pursuade people all day long of their need to abstain from such practices. If someone is smoking or drinking against their conscience then they must stop! And not only that, but He will give them the power to follow through with the conviction He has placed on their heart. From this perspective of "destroying the body" I am in complete alliance. This obivously echos Paul's advice not to eat meat or drink wine if your conscience tells you otherwise, lest it is sin for you.
I'll see what I can do about getting my hands on some of the sermons from brothers whom I personally know who have an occasional cigar or glass of wine. I'll PM them to you when I'm able to.
James 4:17
Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not to him it is sin.
I'll see what I can do about getting my hands on some of the sermons from brothers whom I personally know who have an occasional cigar or glass of wine. I'll PM them to you when I'm able to.
The thing I'm getting at is that a candy bar may be destructive to me, to the effect that it defiles my conscience if I eat it in disobedience to God's inner working in my life. If the Lord has been dealing with me on health issues; on excessive weight gain, dangerous blood-sugar levels, etc. and has regulated my intake of junk food as a result, my eating of the candy bar will defile my temple through disobedience. Another person may eat the same chocolate bar and not experience the pang of God's correction. God works with us on a case-by-case basis with these things.
But with alcohol and cigarettes, we run into a much more complicated issue. If an unbeliever observes me eating a chocolate bar, he will think nothing of it (even if I am disobeying God while I eat it), but if the same unbeliever observes me drink a beer or light up a cigarette, a check will immediately go off in his/her heart (even if I am drinking and smoking to my own preserved conscience). Unbelievers intrinsically know that real Christians should not smoke or drink - not even ocassionally. Don't ask me why or how this is - it's just the stark reality of how this world operates.
Did you know that the only way a person can leave certain notorious gangs (without being killed through the "blood-out" law), is by an open confession to Christianity? But there's a catch: the converted member is closely monitored. If he or she is seen smoking or drinking, a hit is put out on them. They are considered fake Christians, and all deals for their safety are off.
This is how the world, controlled by Satan, sees the influence of tobacco and alcohol and how hypocritical it can make professed believers to appear. This, in my opinion, trumps the believer's own "settled conscience" for the matter. It's different from eating Doritos and drinking Dr. Pepper. Now, if I want my testimony to shine, I need to be careful what I allow in my life, and what other people observe me do. I don't see believers who choose to drink and smoke as unchristian, but unbelievers certainly see them as fake, or in the least acknowledge that something is very wrong with their walks. Intrinsically, unbelievers know not to take them seriously, especially if they attempt to preach against sin and worldliness. The world simply will not take them seriously, and God will not back their words to dissolve the suspicions of the unbelievers.
But with alcohol and cigarettes, we run into a much more complicated issue. If an unbeliever observes me eating a chocolate bar, he will think nothing of it (even if I am disobeying God while I eat it), but if the same unbeliever observes me drink a beer or light up a cigarette, a check will immediately go off in his/her heart (even if I am drinking and smoking to my own preserved conscience). Unbelievers intrinsically know that real Christians should not smoke or drink - not even ocassionally. Don't ask me why or how this is - it's just the stark reality of how this world operates.
In some countries the Christians (and non-Christians) view "Christian" women that wear their hair short or that apply make-up as not being "real" Christians or as being compromised. We, here in America, don't typically associate these traits as being a sign of a weak Christian, could it be that we culturally put more of an emphasis on alcohol and smoking than other issues of equal magnitude?
By the way, was this "Spurgeon" guy some great preacher or something? ;-)
Changed my mind about what I asked in this post. Not important anyway.
God Bless
MJ
In some countries the Christians (and non-Christians) view "Christian" women that wear their hair short or that apply make-up as not being "real" Christians or as being compromised. We, here in America, don't typically associate these traits as being a sign of a weak Christian, could it be that we culturally put more of an emphasis on alcohol and smoking than other issues of equal magnitude?
By the way, was this "Spurgeon" guy some great preacher or something?
He was a cigar smoker, as you know. That is, until the unbelievers found out and publicized it widely. He was rightly compelled to quit the habit as result. Now, replace cigar (or pipe) with peanuts or ice cream. Could Satan still use it against him, and cause "no small stir"?
There's just something about tobacco that the world expects us as Christians to eschew, and that the Lord will not endorse in our lives before unbelievers...and the same, of course, goes for alcohol. Even when both substances are still permissive to the conscience of the believer.
"I was speaking to a Christian once who was smoking cigarettes. I asked him if he would ever smoke a cigarette inside a church building? He said he would never do that because a church building was the house of God. I told him that it was his body that was the house of God and not some church-building. You would not commit adultery inside a church-building, would you? You would not watch internet pornography inside a church either. Your body is the house of God, when Christ lives within. So be careful what you do with the members of your body. Habits like smoking, drinking, taking harmful drugs and allowing impure thoughts to enter your mind will gradually destroy your body and your mind."
Excellent! This is a keeper! Thanks for posting this - it is so powerful!
ginnyrose
I guess by now God has already put the answer in your heart as to what you need to do. but I thought I will share my testimony too.
The Lord had given me victory over smoking (apart from various other vices, atleast for me it was, i.e. I could not let go of it.), quite dramatically. All my continuous resolove was of no use till He came in. Even people in my office was amazed by this dramatic deliverance.
About 6 months after that I succumed to the temptation to smoke. It felt so good and in my heart I knew it was wrong.
For reasons already mentioned in the above posts.
- my body it the temple of the living God
- my life is not my own
- I say I will foraske all, and yet I want to hold on to this habit
- I will be a stumbling block to the weaker brethren.
- Culturaly, I will bring dishonour to my Lord, since it is considered 'bad'.
- it will be a misue of the time and life God has given me
- misuse of the money God has given me
- also "passive smoking" I will be endangering others
But I just did not want to give it up, I liked it. So I started searching the web, hoping for some article that says "its ok to smoke."
But the Lord faithfully convinced me and I was able to seek Him and get the victory in this area.
As a brother has said, it is not how near to the edge of the cliff that I can walk without falling, it is how near to Jesus I can walk.
It is not about "is it right or wrong", then we go back to the fruit of good and evil, it is to be fully the Lords, the tree of life.
Let us take good care of our health, so that we live to the fulness of the age God wants us to live, to live for HIM.
Having said all this, I want to be patient with the brethren, when I was having this stuggle in my heart, God in His heart did not expose me. Truly love covers a multitude of sin.
after all is not anger worse than smoking
is not lusting worse than smoking
God loves us and will give us the victory to be fully HIS. we do not need to go into a panic introspection, but can trust the Holy Spirit to throw light on areas we need to repent and overcome.
Anything that has mastery over a believer is in competition with Christ for first place. In other words, an idol. Alcohol and tobacco are what many press into for "relief", rather than into the power of Christ and His Word--and of course, there are other things: food, sports, work, etc. When a person is caught up in addiction, he becomes a slave to that thing, letting it rule over him at the expense of his relationships both with God and with people.
God is jealous for the position of preeminence in the lives of His children and His church. All things we participate in should be for profit: advancing the Kingdom within ourselves and others. If it competes with Christ, let it go. "Masters two will never do."
"Anything that has mastery over a believer is in competition with Christ for first place. In other words, an idol. Alcohol and tobacco are what many press into for "relief", rather than into the power of Christ and His Word--and of course, there are other things: food, sports, work, etc. When a person is caught up in addiction, he becomes a slave to that thing, letting it rule over him at the expense of his relationships both with God and with people."
We often allow things in our life that do not glorify God and are hurting our testimony for the simple fact that we love ourselves and our own pleasure more than we love God. It is the love of God that constrains us. If we did all things for the glory of God, then we would not be having this discusion about whether or not it is a sin to smoke. Anthing that we are enslaved to and in bondage to is sinful.
Back in the late 60'S and early 70'S I smoked pot almost every day. I had convinced myself that it was not hurting me or anybody else, and that even God didn't object, because after all, He made all of the herbs of the field. After I got saved, I thought it would be all right to be a Christian and still have an occassional smoke. One day I was reading my bible and came upon Matthew 6:24. The Lord spoke to me strongly through this scripture that I was trying to serve two masters, and that He was requiring me to make a choice as to which one I was going to serve. Thank God that I made the right choice.
Mike
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