Some good sermons about Romans 7

Hello to everyone, I have come across some really interesting sermons by Charles Leiter concerning the issue of Romans 7:14-25 and what it is talking about, it's the most balanced view of this topic that I have ever heard of. Even if you disagree I think it's worth the listen, I know this brother knows Paul Washer and they sell his book on the Heartcry website, so it would be wise not to dimiss what he says so quickly.
I don't know if we're allowed to directly post audio sermons from other websites here, so I'll just post the link. There are 4 good messages that I've heard so far:

1) A Gracious Interaction with the Wrong Reformed View of Romans 7 (What is Good and Bad about this View?) - Sermon #86

2) Testimonies Concerning Changing Views on Romans 7 & Examining the Wrong “Deeper Life” View of Romans 7 - Sermon #87

3) The Wrong Perfectionist, Sinless or Wesleyan View of Romans 7 - Sermon #88

4) Q&A/Bible Study on Romans 6 and 7

You can listen to them [url=http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?currPage=1&keyword=Charles%5ELeiter&SpeakerOnly=true&currSection=sermonsspeaker&AudioOnly=false&SortBy=added]HERE.[/url]

Hope this is a blessing to you all.

the writer of romans. paul . was not speaking of himself in romans chapter 7. Paul was a perfect , Holy , and blameless man , as he himself says he is . romans chapter 7 is a example of a carnal unbelieving christian, when paul was saying I do the thing s I would not and I do not do the things i would , He is not speaking of himself there. romans chapter 8 Paul exsplains the deliverance from the dilema of being an unbelieving carnal christian. and not receiving what chapter 6 of romans says in verses 3-8. walking in newness of life is sinless perfection.

when paul was saying I do the thing s I would not and I do not do the things i would , He is not speaking of himself there.

Then why would he use the word "I"?

I have read Bro. Leiters book ( justification and Regeneration) it is sold at my church.He has solid views on justification and regeneration you will not find any better.He states his views on Romans 7 in the book. I am not to say or voice what I think on the matter,but may I point you to a sermon by John Piper (Who Is This Divided Man? ) at desiringgod.org do read my you be blessed.

he was speaking in the third person. He was not describing himself. he was not a wretched miserable man trapped in sin at the time He wrote romans. he was giving an example of one that minded the flesh in romans 7 and he gives how to be delivered of that fleshy minded state in romans chapter 8

Hi wtninChrist, thank you for the recommendation, I am familiar with Piper's views on the subject and would disagree, but I'm sure there is still some spiritual wisdom to glean from the message. I'll check it out.
I believe Leiter gives an excellent and balanced response to the Reformed view in the 1st message above.

I've also read Justification and Regeneration. These messages really complement the Romans 7 chapter in the book, adding much more valuable information.

Rom. 7:22 "For I delight in the Law of God according to the inward man;"

Paul delights - this is a strong and inclusive word. And, after the inward man, - thus revealing himself as regenerate throughout this struggle: No unregenerate man would say, (unless profane) "It is no more I that do it, but sin which dwelleth in me:" For,

(1) An unregenerate man is not conscious of a moral power which is not himself: for he has but the one nature, he is "in the flesh."

(2) An unregenerate man could not say, "What I hate, that I do." For only born-again people hate evil. "Ye that love Jehovah, hate evil" (Ps. 97.10), and David could say of himself, "I hate every false way" (Ps 119:104). But of the wicked he wrote, "He abhorreth not evil" (Ps 36:4).

(3) An unregenerate man could not say, "What I would not, that I do, -I consent to the Law that it is good." An unregenerate man resists the Law, that he may "justify himself." A regenerate man consents to the Law's being good, no matter how it judges what he finds himself doing!(Ro 7:16).

(4) The unregenerate man could not say, "I delight in the Law of God after the inward man." For by nature all men are "children of wrath, "" alienated from the life of God"; and "the mind of the flesh is enmity against God, not subject to the Law of God." Before his conversion, Saul, as we saw, could help to stone Stephen, -"verily thinking he ought" to do it; but Paul was not then seeking holiness (as the man in Romans Seven is), but was secure in his own righteousness as a legalist.

(5) The unregenerate man could not say, "Wretched man that I am!" For he could not see his wretchedness! His whole life was to build up that which was the flesh.

(6) If you claim that the "wretched man" of Romans Seven is an unregenerate man under conviction of sin, the complete reply is, that this man of Romans Seven is crying for deliverance, -not from sin's guilt and penalty, but from its power. Not for forgiveness of sins, but help against indwelling sin. This man is exercised, not about the day of judgment, but about a condition of bondage to that which he hates. The Jews on the Day of Pentecost, and the jailor at Philippi, cried out in terror, "What shall we do to be saved?" It was guilt and danger they felt. But this man in Romans Seven cries, "Who shall deliver me" (not from guilt) but, "from this body of death?" No one but a quickened soul ever knows about a "body of death"!

(7) But perhaps the most striking argument of all is in the closing words of Chapter Seven-verse 25: "Therefore then I myself with the mind, am subject to God's Law, but with the flesh to sin's law." Here we have both spiritual life and consciousness; also, discernment and discrimination of both his real true new self, which chooses God and His will and of the flesh which will continue to choose "sin's law": and all this conclusion after he has realized deliverance from the "body of death" through our Lord Jesus Christ!

Newell

"The writer genuinely deplores the fact that due to the law of sin still operating in him, he is unable to serve God as completely and whole-heartedly as he desires. The poignant grief here expressed is definitely that of a believer. No unbeliever would ever be able to be so filled with sorrow because of his sins! The author of the outcry is Paul, speaking for every child of God. The cry he utters is one of distress, but not of despair, as verse 25 proves. Paul suffers agony, to be sure, the wretchedness brought about by strenuous exertion; that is, by trying hard, but never satisfactorily succeeding, to live in complete harmony with God’s will but failing again and again. He is looking forward eagerly to the time when this struggle will have ended." (Hendriksen)

"Paul is expressing in forceful terms his dismay at what sin does to him. It is, moreover, important that we understand this as applying to the regenerate. It is all too easy to take our Christian status for granted. We so readily remember our victories and gloss over our defeats. We slip into a routine and refuse to allow ourselves to be disturbed by what we see as occasional and minor slips. But a sensitive conscience and a genuine sorrow for every sin are the prerequisites of spiritual depth." (Morris)

"In this section Paul continues to speak in the first person singular, but he leaves the past tense and uses the present. Not only so, but there is an inward tension here which was absent from Romans 7:7-13. There, sin assaulted him by stealth and struck him down; here, he puts up an agonizing resistance, even if he cannot beat down the enemy. There, he described what happened to him when he lived in 'this present age'; here, 'the age to come' has already arrived, although the old age has not yet passed away. He is a man living simultaneously on two planes, eagerly longing to live a life in keeping with the higher plane, but sadly aware of the strength of indwelling sin that keeps on pulling him down to the lower plane." (F.F.Bruce)

A study of the greek words used in romans 7 will bear out the fact that Paul does not speak in the third person but "...continues to speak in the first person singular, but he leaves the past tense and uses the present", as F.F. Bruce has correctly stated above.

Would the one who said, "he was speaking in the third person" please give proof from the original greek language, if you are able.

Hi savannah,

May I recommend that, if possible, you hear the above messages first? They're really worth the listen, regardless of your view. As I've said, they are really balanced. And Leiter presents his case in such a loving, understanding, and unargumentative style which is wonderful considering this is a very controversial topic.

Also, you can read Leiter's chapter on Romans 7 [url=http://www.puritanfellowship.com/2007/11/romans-7-by-charles-leiter.html]here.[/url]

And Tim Conway from Grace Community Church in Texas has some really good messages on sermonaudio.com as well, just look him up on the site and do a search of Romans 7 and you'll find his messages. If you want I can give you the link to those.

Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones and Isaac Watts were some men of God of the reformed persuation who held to this view. Also, I'm told the early Christians believed this for 300 years up until Agustine, who was the first person to teach the man in Romans 7 was a believer. I'm not sure about this but I'll have to investigate further.

he was speaking in the third person. He was not describing himself. he was not a wretched miserable man trapped in sin at the time He wrote romans. he was giving an example of one that minded the flesh in romans 7 and he gives how to be delivered of that fleshy minded state in romans chapter 8

Unfortunate chapter breaks, the whole of it speaks as an assessment that real life bears out.

He is a man living simultaneously on two planes, eagerly longing to live a life in keeping with the higher plane, but sadly aware of the strength of indwelling sin that keeps on pulling him down to the lower plane." (F.F.Bruce)

Precisely. Charles Simeon, I believe summarizes it experientially;

(John Piper speaking)

- Handley Moule captures the essence of Simeon's secret of longevity in this sentence: "'Before honor is humility,' and he had been 'growing downwards' year by year under the stern discipline of difficulty met in the right way, the way of close and adoring communion with God" (Moule, 64). Those two things were the heartbeat of Simeon's inner life: growing downward in humility and growing upward in adoring communion with God.

But the remarkable thing about humiliation and adoration in the heart of Charles Simeon is that they were inseparable. Simeon was utterly unlike most of us today who think that we should get rid once and for all of feelings of vileness and unworthiness as soon as we can. For him, adoration only grew in the freshly plowed soil of humiliation for sin. So he actually labored to know his true sinfulness and his remaining corruption as a Christian.

[i]I have continually had such a sense of my sinfulness as would sink me into utter despair, if I had not an assured view of the sufficiency and willingness of Christ to save me to the uttermost. And at the same time I had such a sense of my acceptance through Christ as would overset my little bark, if I had not ballast at the bottom sufficient to sink a vessel of no ordinary size. (Moule 134f.)[/i]

He never lost sight of the need for the heavy ballast of his own humiliation. After he had been a Christian forty years he wrote,

[i]With this sweet hope of ultimate acceptance with God, I have always enjoyed much cheerfulness before men; but I have at the same time laboured incessantly to cultivate the deepest humiliation before God. I have never thought that the circumstance of God's having forgiven me was any reason why I should forgive myself; on the contrary, I have always judged it better to loathe myself the more, in proportion as I was assured that God was pacified towards me (Ezekiel 16:63). . . . There are but two objects that I have ever desired for these forty years to behold; the one is my own vileness; and the other is, the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ: and I have always thought that they should be viewed together; just as Aaron confessed all the sins of all Israel whilst he put them on the head of the scapegoat. The disease did not keep him from applying to the remedy, nor did the remedy keep him from feeling the disease. By this I seek to be, not only humbled and thankful, but humbled in thankfulness, before my God and Saviour continually. (Carus, 518f.)[/i]

If Simeon is right, vast portions of contemporary Christianity are wrong. And I can't help wondering whether one of the reasons we are emotionally capsized so easily today - so vulnerable to winds of criticism or opposition - is that in the name of forgiveness and grace, we have thrown the ballast overboard.

Simeon's boat drew a lot of water. But it was steady and on course and the mastheads were higher and the sails bigger and more full of the Spirit than most people's today who talk continuously about self-esteem.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=25079&forum=34]Spurgeon - Mueller - An Important Series ~ Piper's Biographies[/url]

David, Isaiah, Jeremiah, John ... It is the prevailing mindset and recognition throughout scripture ... Luk 18:10-14

paul , in romans chapter 7 was speaking of a carnal christians exsperience. He , paul was not in this exsperience at the time he wrote this book . he was not refering to his present condition , but the condition of a carnal flesh minded christian . it is so simple to look at the whole big picture of scripture to see as an eagle sees from way up high and zoom in with the eyes of an eagle and see the little morsels to eat . meaning seeing the details of scripture by getting a big view ,of the big picture of pauls life and understanding His Holiness and blameless life before man and God.Paul was a blameless and Holy man or He was an extravagant boastful liar. I nowhere said or implied paul to be unregenerant nor the example in pauls teaching in romans ch.7 to be unregenerant either. the texts of romans chapters 5,6,7,8 all combined and followed through prove themselves , that paul is not speaking of Himself as the being carnal christian in a wretched miserable estate that the example of romans 7.

a carnal Christian as told of by paul in romans chapter 7 is more wretched and miserable than any sinner ever could be . I am well aware of this by exsperience unfortunately . I know that paul was not referring to himself . Many others know this also.I do not mean to be demeaning of the teaching of leiter's . I know not what he says , never heard him and don't know if i ever will. Being without si sprit , soul ,and body is attainable in this life ,without dying physically first. I hold to charles finneys view, it is biblical.

I know that paul was not referring to himself .

He most certainly was and it is all written in the present tense, an assessment of that conundrum that we all experience.

They are certainly extremes that make this more complicated and I am of the observation that trying to do this division (the unfortunate chapter\\verse aspect - remember there was originally no such numbering sequences in these letters) is to make or force an argument that is not there.

Part of the greatness of Paul was his sheer honesty and self-depreciating manner - He is being frank and this idea of a 'carnal Christian' vs what then? A 'Super saint'? (as Katz would put it) only complicates matters.

Well after the fact, if we hold to this idealism of separating the two ...

[i]For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit [u]do mortify the deeds of the body[/u], ye shall live.[/i] Rom 8:13

Why the bother if these things are now 'past tense'?

At what point does Paul speak of;

[i]I therefore so run, as not uncertainly; so fight I, as not beating the air: but I [b]buffet[/b] my body, and bring it into bondage: lest by any means, after that I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected.[/i] 1Co 9:26,27 (RV)

The KJV has it as;

[i]But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection:[/i]

"[b]Under[/b]"

G5299
ὑπωπιάζω
hupōpiazō
[i]hoop-o-pee-ad'-zo[/i]
From a compound of G5259 and a derivative of G3700; to hit under the eye ([i]buffet[/i] or [i]disable[/i] an antagonist as a pugilist), that is, (figuratively) to [i]tease[/i] or [i]annoy[/i] (into compliance), [i]subdue[/i] (one’s passions): - keep under, weary.

Again, why?

A verse that has to be taken alongside all this;

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[i]But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin[/i]

"So then ..."

Present tense

[i]For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.[/i]

"Mortify"

"If"

Conditions and 'work to do' - The great problem with this construct is the tense of 'eradication' that is implied by simplifying what Paul was stressing into a 'before\\after' construct. It's a continuum, it is both at the same time, it is ... '[i]a law[/i] ... warring ... [u]in[/u] ... [b]my members[/b].

The flesh will always [i][b]do[/b][/i] that which is it's bent if it is not overruled [i]with the mind[/i], a renewed mind, a mind [i]led by the Spirit of God[/i].

[i]For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.[/i] Rom 8:23

"but ourselves also"

"groan within ourselves"

For what?

[i]the redemption of our body[/i].

To be delivered from it, once and for all.

[i]For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.[/i] Rom 7:18

Back full circle again. It's as if to say "This is what I am, this is what I do left to my own devices." And experience bears it out. Let yourself drift just a little and you find that there is no eradication at all and with very little effort or even cognizance that it was always there. Some of us recognize it while it is yet 'present' and I am speaking as one who has yet drifted presently, though I cannot hardly articulate it. Not to apostasy, not to ... unbelief nor desperation but having been choked on the cares of this world to the point of distraction, present circumstances as they are ... the drift is [i]away[/i] not [i]towards[/i].

"I find then a [i]law[/i]."

Well put, Mike!

quote" "the flesh will always do that which is it's bent , if , it is not overruled with the mind , a rennewed mind , a mind led by the spirit of God. " this statement is so true and paul was not a man that minded his flesh , and he was not a man that did not overrule his flesh with the mind of Christ that was in him by the holy spirit. Paul ruled his flesh and mind and spirit buy the living word of God, that He had intrusted to Him by God ... please , please do not misunderstand this point ... Paul was not speaking of his state of living in romans chapter 7

how is it well put . it is not a truth to say that Paul was the struggling with carnality, minding the flesh, whipped by the flesh's passions and feelings and propensities, wretch that he is describing in romans 7 . Paul was not this man then and was not describing Himself as such

and therefore,

Henry continues;

II. It seems rather to be understood of the struggles that are maintained between grace and corruption in sanctified souls. That there are remainders of indwelling corruption, even where there is a living principle of grace, is past dispute; that this corruption is daily breaking forth in sins of infirmity (such as are consistent with a state of grace) is no less certain. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, 1Jo 1:8, 1Jo 1:10. That true grace strives against these sins and corruptions, does not allow of them, hates them, mourns over them, groans under them as a burden, is likewise certain (Gal 5:17): [i]The flesh lusteth against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary the one to the other, so that you cannot do the things that you would.[/i] These are the truths which, I think, are contained in this discourse of the apostle. And his design is further to open the nature of sanctification, that it does not attain to a sinless perfection in this life; and therefore to quicken us to, and encourage us in, our conflicts with remaining corruptions. Our case is not singular, that which we do sincerely strive against, shall not be laid to our charge, and through grace the victory is sure at last. The struggle here is like that between Jacob and Esau in the womb, between the Canaanites and Israelites in the land, between the house of Saul and the house of David; but great is the truth and will prevail. Understanding it thus, we may observe here,

1. What he complains of - the remainder of indwelling corruptions, which he here speaks of, to show that the law is insufficient to justify even a regenerate man, that the best man in the world hath enough in him to condemn him, if God should deal with him according to the law, which is not the fault of the law, but of our own corrupt nature, which cannot fulfil the law. The repetition of the same things over and over again in this discourse shows how much Paul's heart was affected with what he wrote, and how deep his sentiments were. Observe the particulars of this complaint.

(1.) [i]I am carnal, sold under sin[/i], Rom 7:14. He speaks of the Corinthians as carnal, 1Co 3:1. Even where there is spiritual life there are remainders of carnal affections, and so far a man may be [i]sold under sin[/i]; he does not sell himself to work wickedness, as Ahab did (1Ki 21:25), but he was sold by Adam when he sinned and fell - sold, as a poor slave that does his master's will against his own will - sold under sin, because conceived in iniquity and born in sin.

(2.) [i]What I would, that I do not; but what I hate, that do I[/i], Rom 7:15. And to the same purport, Rom 7:19, Rom 7:21, [i]When I would do good, evil is present with me.[/i] Such was the strength of corruptions, that he could not attain that perfection in holiness which he desired and breathed after. Thus, while he was pressing forward towards perfection, yet he acknowledges that he had not already attained, neither was already perfect, Phi 3:12. Fain he would be free from all sin, and perfectly do the will of God, such was his settled judgment; but his corrupt nature drew him another way: it was like a clog, that checked and kept him down when he would have soared upward, like the bias in a bowl, which, when it is thrown straight, yet draws it aside.

(3.) [i]In me, that is in my flesh, dwelleth no good,[/i] Rom 7:18. Here he explains himself concerning the corrupt nature, which he calls flesh; and as far as that goes there is no good to be expected, any more than one would expect good corn growing upon a rock, or on the sand which is by the sea-side. As the new nature, as far as that goes, cannot commit sin (1Jo 3:9), so the flesh, the old nature, as far as that goes, cannot perform a good duty. How should it? For the flesh serveth the law of sin (Rom 7:25), it is under the conduct and government of that law; and, while it is so, it is not likely to do any good. The corrupt nature is elsewhere called flesh (Gen 6:3, Joh 3:6); and, though there may be good things dwelling in those that have this flesh, yet, as far as the flesh goes, there is no good, the flesh is not a subject capable of any good.

(4.) [i]I see another law in my members warring against the law of my mind[/i], Rom 7:23. The corrupt and sinful inclination is here compared to a law, because it controlled and checked him in his good motions. It is said to be seated in his members, because, Christ having set up his throne in his heart, it was only the rebellious members of the body that were the instruments of sin - in the sensitive appetite; or we may take it more generally for all that corrupt nature which is the seat not only of sensual but of more refined lusts. This wars against the law of the mind, the new nature; it draws the contrary way, drives on a contrary interest, which corrupt disposition and inclination are as great a burden and grief to the soul as the worst drudgery and captivity could be. [i]It brings me into captivity[/i]. To the same purport (Rom 7:25), [i]With the flesh I serve the law of sin[/i]; that is, the corrupt nature, the unregenerate part, is continually working towards sin.

(5.) His general complaint we have in Rom 7:24, [i]O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?[/i] The thing he complains of is a body of death; either the body of flesh, which is a mortal dying body (while we carry this body about with us, we shall be troubled with corruption; when we are dead, we shall be freed from sin, and not before), or the body of sin, the old man, the corrupt nature, which tends to death, that is, to the ruin of the soul. Or, comparing it to a dead body, the touch of which was by the ceremonial law defiling, if actual transgressions be dead works (Heb 9:14), original corruption is a dead body. It was as troublesome to Paul as if he had had a dead body tied to him, which he must have carried about with him. This made him cry out, [i]O wretched man that I am![/i] A man that had learned in every state to be content yet complains thus of his corrupt nature. Had I been required to speak of Paul, I should have said, “O blessed man that thou art, an ambassador of Christ, a favourite of heaven, a spiritual father of thousands!” But in his own account he was a wretched man, because of the corruption of nature, because he was not so good as he fain would be, had not yet attained, neither was already perfect. Thus miserably does he complain. [i]Who shall deliver me?[/i] He speaks like one that was sick of it, that would give any thing to be rid of it, looks to the right hand and to the left for some friend that would part between him and his corruptions. The remainders of indwelling sin are a very grievous burden to a gracious soul.

2. What he comforts himself with. The case was sad, but there were some allays. Three things comforted him: -

(1.) That his conscience witnessed for him that he had a good principle ruling and prevailing in him, notwithstanding. It is well when all does not go one way in the soul. The rule of this good principle which he had was the law of God, to which he here speaks of having a threefold regard, which is certainly to be found in all that are sanctified, and no others. [1.] [i]I consent unto the law that it is good[/i], Rom 7:16, [i]sumphēmi - I give my vote[/i] to the law; here is the approbation of the judgment. Wherever there is grace there is not only a dread of the severity of the law, but a consent to the goodness of the law. “It is a good in itself, it is good for me.” This is a sign that the law is written in the heart, that the soul is delivered into the mould of it. To consent to the law is so far to approve of it as not to wish it otherwise constituted than it is. The sanctified judgment not only concurs to the equity of the law, but to the excellency of it, as convinced that a conformity to the law is the highest perfection of human nature, and the greatest honour and happiness we are capable of. [2.] [i]I delight in the law of God after the inward man[/i], Rom 7:22. His conscience bore witness to a complacency in the law. He delighted not only in the promises of the word, but in the precepts and prohibitions of the word; [i]sunēdomai[/i] expresses a becoming [i]delight[/i]. He did herein concur in affection with all the saints. All that are savingly regenerate or born again do truly delight in the law of God, delight to know it, to do it - cheerfully submit to the authority of it, and take a complacency in that submission, never better pleased than when heart and life are in the strictest conformity to the law and will of God. [i]After the inward man[/i]; that is, [i]First[/i], The mind or rational faculties, in opposition to the sensitive appetites and wills of the flesh. The soul is the inward man, and that is the seat of gracious delights, which are therefore sincere and serious, but secret; it is the renewing of the inward man, 2Co 4:16. [i]Secondly[/i], The new nature. The new man is called the [i]inner man[/i] (Eph 3:16), the [i]hidden man of the heart[/i], 1Pe 3:4. Paul, as far as he was sanctified, had a delight in the law of God. [3.] [i]With the mind I myself serve the law of God[/i], Rom 7:25. It is not enough to consent to the law, and to delight in the law, but we must serve the law; our souls must be entirely delivered up into the obedience of it. Thus it was with Paul's mind; thus it is with every sanctified renewed mind; this is the ordinary course and way; thitherward goes the bent of the soul. [i]I myself - autos egō[/i], plainly intimating that he speaks in his own person, and not in the person of another.

(2.) That the fault lay in that corruption of his nature which he did really bewail and strive against: [i]It is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me[/i]. This he mentions twice (Rom 7:17, Rom 7:20), not as an excuse for the guilt of his sin (it is enough to condemn us, if we were under the law, that the sin which does the evil dwelleth in us), but as a salvo for his evidences, that he might not sink in despair, but take comfort from the covenant of grace, which accepts the willingness of the spirit, and has provided pardon for the weakness of the flesh. He likewise herein enters a protestation against all that which this indwelling sin produced. Having professed his consent to the law of God, he here professes his dissent from the law of sin. “It is not I; I disown the fact; it is against my mind that it is done.” As when in the senate the major part are bad, and carry every thing the wrong way, it is indeed the act of the senate, but the honest party strive against it, bewail what is done, and enter their protestation against it; so that it is no more they that do it. - [i]Dwelleth in me[/i], as the Canaanites among the Israelites, though they were put under tribute: dwelleth in me, and is likely to dwell there, while I live.

(3.) His great comfort lay in Jesus Christ (Rom 7:25): [i]I thank God, through Jesus Christ our Lord.[/i] In the midst of his complaints he breaks out into praises. It is a special remedy against fears and sorrows to be much in praise: many a poor drooping soul hath found it so. And, in all our praises, this should be the burden of the son, “Blessed be God for Jesus Christ.” [i]Who shall deliver me?[/i] says he (Rom 7:24), as one at a loss for help. At length he finds an all-sufficient friend, even Jesus Christ. When we are under the sense of the remaining power of sin and corruption, we shall see reason to bless God through Christ (for, as he is the mediator of all our prayers, so he is of all our praises) - to bless God for Christ; it is he that stands between us and the wrath due to us for this sin. If it were not for Christ, this iniquity that dwells in us would certainly be our ruin. He is our advocate with the Father, and through him God pities, and spares, and pardons, and lays not our iniquities to our charge. It is Christ that has purchased deliverance for us in due time. Through Christ death will put an end to all these complaints, and waft us to an eternity which we shall spend without sin or sigh. [i]Blessed be God that giveth us this victory through our Lord Jesus Christ![/i]

Matthew Henry
[i](Italics extant[/i])

(Edit: Corrected the verses so that the new reference tagger links ... cool addition Greg has incorporated here.)

Brothers, recognize that is a bit long but hope it might be considered. I think there is really little to add to it from my own perceptions and experience. I concur with Matthew Henry whole heartedly.

I think there is always that extra bit we may be ... adding or maybe it's deducing from something like this.

For instance;

it is not a truth to say that Paul was the struggling with carnality, minding the flesh, whipped by the flesh's passions and feelings and propensities, wretch that he is describing in romans 7 . Paul was not this man then and was not describing Himself as such

In that sense you are correct but that is not either his definition nor my understanding of his intentions ... Again I appeal back to Henry and I do not mean to single you out brother, these just seem to be extrapolations that are not given - In other words, 'it doesn't mean that'. Trust I do this very same thing at times.

I really should look into it further, but what about the sequencing of the letters that Paul wrote? I am not sure but am thinking that Romans preceded the others? Correct me on that, but it might add some things to the construct.

[i]... even a regenerate man, that the best man in the world hath enough in him to condemn him, if God should deal with him according to the law, which is not the fault of the law, but of our own corrupt nature, which cannot fulfill the law. The repetition of the same things over and over again in this discourse shows how much Paul's heart was affected with what he wrote, and how deep his sentiments were.[/i]

Theology without evidence in the lives of believers is a dangerous thing. We can debate, think and reason with each other until He returns, but unless the Spirit Himself is within us there will be no gain from it.

Mike, the question of

'carnal Christian' vs what then? A 'Super saint'? (as Katz would put it) only complicates matters.

This is Paul's follow up to Galatians which was written in 52ad, Romans being written in the fall of 57ad...................Frank

Thanks brother. Did a little digging around as well - Am second guessing myself now as to making that part and parcel, likely clouding the issue more than clarifying it. Would think that Paul went on to the end buffeting himself over the smallest of matters, but again not to groveling over it ... ah, again and again that mention of questions leading to more questions and on to more and more extrapolations.

It just seems plainly enough to me what the expressions are, it is that remarkable finding in all of scripture where it is less ... a questioning of "Is this so?" but more of an "Alas! Yes, me too!" - A redundant mention, but I do not know that I need to hear that [i]the heart is desperately wicked[/i] for instance, it is true, it rings true, experience bears it out.

Wanted to frame this last night a certain way and stopped, too easily misconstrued - But there is a certain ... liberation and humbling in recognizing not only what [i]remains[/i] (as Henry put it) and striving towards that 'eradication' but also recalling that [i]'such were some of you'[/i] of where we have come from and are at all times not far from lapsing back into. Perhaps it is why I find this so much of an importance over against the more extreme versions of ... todays value placed upon so called 'self esteem'. The liberation is not the adverse and perverted idea of "free to sin" on the contrary and [i]God forbid![/i] as Paul always expostulated in these matters. No, not that at all - It's that reality check and real recognition of what we are - "dead" yes, but in these tents still we groan ... again that question rises to the surface, why? The liberation is humility and humbling, seeing always the speck as the log in our own eye - recalling the omissions and even the carelessness of words spoken on any given day, any seemingly 'minor' matter that arrests our conscience - without sin? Any of us, truly?

The oft used illustration of having a dead body tied as they used to do to murderers, tied to the criminal- the man that was killed, tied to the perpetrator has often been appealed to as what meant by being delivered from 'this body of death'.

From the intro to John Newtons Letters;

[i]If there is one thing outstanding in Newton's letters, it is, perhaps, the happy combination between spiritual mourning and spiritual rejoicing. Like the Apostle Paul he could cry with one breath: "O wretched man that I am" and, with the next, "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord." Writing to one of his correspondents he exhorts thus: "You say you are more disposed to cry, Miserere! than Hallelujah! Why not both together? When the treble is praise and heart-humiliation for the bass, the melody is pleasant and the harmony is good." The purpose of God in showing believers the evil of their own hearts is to make them prize more highly the grace and all-sufficiency of Jesus. In this way they go through life "sorrowful yet always rejoicing."[/i]

Hey, ive downloaded about 8 sermons from the guy you reccomended. I will listen to them today at work. Ive always understood that Romans 7 was a state of legalism, and the work of the law only upon a heart without graces influence. I also have thought that a christian could fall here, but that it was not Gods perfect will. We were to be free, in knowing grace and truth through Christ. "For sin shall not have dominion over you for you are not under law but under Grace." It seems to me that sin had dominion in ch 7. Let God be true and every man a liar, even me. I just want to know the truth, and be free like Christ said.

Regards in Christ
KPK

I dont have so much to add to the thread, some very good things have been spoken of and brought to my mind. But often i think we stumble over the verses and the chapter divisions, sometimes its just good to read the book, in this case romans straight through slowly and with thoughtfulness. Also i think a good starter before doing so is to read how Paull ends his letter.

Romans 16:27 to God, [b]alone wise[/b], be glory through Jesus Christ forever. Amen (Rom 16:27 NKJ)

4680 sofo,j sophos {sof-os'}
Meaning: 1) wise 1a) skilled, expert: of artificers 1b) wise, skilled in letters, cultivated, learned 1b1) of the Greek philosophers and orators 1b2) of Jewish theologians 1b3) of Christian teachers 1c) forming the best plans and using the best means for their execution

god alone is wise in all these above things, even christian techers, like Paul was, if Paul himself could say God alone is wise to understand all these things, how much less we? it is possible God one day will reveal some things to us, but God alone is wise. just a reminder to us all when we get "stuck" to right or left or in the middle or maybe can not understand all things that is written to us. Sometimes i think God purposely put hard things in the book for our humbling, mostly because we as humans tend to be puffed up and proud when we know it all. at least it has been so for me.

Thank you for a good thread

the people who believe we are going to have sin somewhere in our bodies until we die can only missunderstand pauls message of Christs sanctification and consequently our blamelessness in spirit , soul , and body. paul said he was perfect in,, 1 thess. 2:10 ,,2cor.6:3-7,,2cor1:12,,acts24:16,, 2Tim1:3 ,, gal. 2:20 ,, gal. 6:14 ,, phil. 1:21 ,, acts 20:26 ,, 1cor. 2: 16,17 ,, 1 cor.11:1 ,,phil3:17,20. phil, 3:9 ,, .. Paul could not have said any of these scriptures of himself if He was not perfect and Holy as God is perfect and holy . He could not pray that God would sanctify the church , to be preseved blameless in , spirit soul and BODY . and then add that God is Faithful and Will do it..pual could not have been teaching a message of our bodies being preseved blameless before God if he knew we were always going to have a sin nature in our bodies until we physically die. The blood of Jesus cleanses all our flesh from all sin . this lie of the devil that says the bible says we have a sin nature in our flesh till we die, is a great erroneous stumbling block that leads to unawnsered doctrinal questions . I do love this web site . i have not exsplained my views in my posts as clearly as i could . I am happy to have a place to look into some great men in God and gleam from thier wisdom and thoughs. I am so happy that leonard ravenhill is on here. Thank you all for being easy to get along and post with.

does the bible { or paul } really teach that paul has sin in His flesh ? or does the bible teach that paul has THE RESULTS of sin in his flesh..? all that i see from sound biblical doctrine, is that one who is sanctified and Truly crucified with Christ and then only lives Christ , as paul did , has The results of sin and not sin itself. Hope this clarifys why i have posted here the way i have.

If Romans 7 was not an auto-assessment of Paul's actual nature, I think we are all in big trouble...and I'm at the front of the line. When I read Romans 7 I am looking into a perfect mirror reflection of my poisonous inner workings that still very much live and pulsate and vie daily. When I read Romans 8 I discover the antedote and blessed assurance of the Spirit's agency of poison-control. You can't have Romans 8 without 7, and you can't have 7 without 8. They must be read together for the unification of the whole truth.

Perhaps the Feb 27 Article from Daily Devotion by Hoekstra (E-Sword version) may help in giving light to the issue.

Set Free by the Spirit

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. (Rom_8:2)

There is a destructive spiritual tendency that resides in every human being. It is "the law of sin and death." This indwelling principle is always pulling people downward into sin and spiritual deadness. It comes from being born physically into a fallen race of sinners who are like their earthly father, Adam. Being born anew spiritually does not remove this problem, since this principle still operates within our natural humanity (the flesh). Yet, becoming a child of God does make His remedy constantly available to us.

God's remedy for"the law of sin and death" is a higher, more powerful principle, "the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus." This lofty principle involves the Holy Spirit making the life that is in Christ Jesus our resource for living. This principle is operating in the life of any new creature in Christ who is not walking "according to the flesh but [is walking] according to the Spirit" (Rom_8:4). This approach to Christian living is the only one that can increasingly liberate us from the internal carnal tendencies that influence us all.

In fact (as we have noted previously), this is the only hope of growing in the godliness that the law demanded: "that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us" (Rom_8:4). Our lives can only measure up to the holy will of God when we are walking in the Spirit, because Christ is then being allowed to express His life through us. Jesus was, and is, the only one who could ever walk fully pleasing to the Father. Jesus said, "I always do those things that please Him" (Joh_8:29). For a victorious Christian experience, we need this same life of Jesus living in and through us now, by the working of the Holy Spirit. We need the higher law ("the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus") setting us free from the lower law ("the law of sin and death").

Again, what is our responsibility in this? We are to relate to the Lord in humility and faith. Humility can develop as we agree with our Lord that "the law of sin and death" characterizes our flesh (our best natural resources). Faith can be exercised as we look to our Lord to demonstrate that "the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death."

appolus wrote:
I like that Passerby.........And as I said earlier, there is no reason why we, as genuine Christians, should not be living a victorious life. To admit that we sin and have this tendency in the flesh, is not to say that we cannot live a victorious life, we can and we should and it is possible.............Frank

Amen and amen.

And Amen and Amen!

If Romans 7 was not an auto-assessment of Paul's actual nature, I think we are all in big trouble...and I'm at the front of the line. When I read Romans 7 I am looking into a perfect mirror reflection of my poisonous inner workings that still very much live and pulsate and vie daily.

May I suggest that herein may lie the problem? So often we read a verse or passage of Scripture and interpret it in the light of an experience we may have had as Christians, rather than interpreting it in the light of its [i]context[/i]. The question of Romans 7:14-25 is not so much, "What do we as believers experience?" It's, "What is Paul saying in this passage?"
As was previously suggested, context can shed a lot of light as to the intent and meaning of these verses.

Though there might be some seeming similarities between this passage and verses like Galatians 5:16-25 that describe the inner struggle in a Christian, Romans 7:14-25 is actually not speaking of the Christian life, as you can see by reading the whole chapter. The issue being discussed is the goodness of the Law and the way in which sin uses the Commandment to produce death. In Romans 7:13 Paul explains that it wasn't the Law (that which is good) that produced death in him; it was [i]sin[/i] that did it. And so in the rest of the chapter Paul explains [i]how[/i] this occured. Romans 7:14-25 is an explanation of how "the commandment came" and "sin revived", and how Paul "died" (Rom.7:9).

I believe this experience occured prior to his salvation. A "Hebrew of Hebrews", a staunch and ardent and zealous Pharisee of the upper echelon, he was "blameless" in regards to outward piety (Phil.3:6). But there was a point in time where "the commandment came" and he saw himself in his true light. He came under conviction of sin. Our Lord himself even said that he had been kicking against the pricks (Acts 9:5). That's my view on the matter.

It's interesting to note, also, that the Holy Spirit is absent from the last part of Romans 7, yet self is mentioned in every passage. When I read it I see an absolutely defeated and despairing man consumed with his own wretchedness. It's hard for me to accept that this is a believer because I can't really find another passage in the New Testament speaking of the Christian's struggle with the flesh that conveys the utter hopelesness portrayed here.

Something else that helped shaped my view is studying the Greek words in Romans 7 and comparing them to other passages from Scripture. I'm not an expert, but here are just some of the things I found:

Rom.7:15: "For I do not do what I want, but I [b]do[/b] (poieō) the very thing I hate." (ESV)

Poieō means to commit, make, practice. Another place where this word is found is in 1 John 3:8:

"Whoever makes a [b]practice[/b] (poieō) of sinning is of the devil..." (ESV)

So the man in Romans 7 continually "practices" sin, which the Bible says no true Christian does.

Rom.7:18: "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to [b]will[/b] (thelō) is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not."

The word "thelō" is also found in Philippians 2:13. Contrast the above verse, that says Paul wills to do good but can't, with this one:

"For it is God which worketh in you both to [b]will[/b] (thelō) and to do of his good pleasure."

Rom.7:25: "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself [b]serve[/b] (douleuō) the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."

Many people read this and say "See! That's proof the Paul is speaking as a believer! Only a true, regenerate Christian can serve the Law of God!"
But if you look up the meaning of the word, you will find that it means:

to be a slave to (literally or figuratively, involuntarily or voluntarily): - be in bondage, (do) serve (-ice).

So what is Paul saying here?
He is saying that with his mind, he is a [i]slave[/i] to the Law of God, and with the flesh he is a slave to the law of sin. We find this principle to be in Scripture.

Those apart from Christ who attempt to keep the Law are slaves to the Law:

Rom.10:5: "For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, [b]That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.[/b]"

Rom.7:1: "Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how [b]that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?[/b]"

Gal.3:10, 12: "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, [b]Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them...And the law is not of faith: but, the man that doeth them shall live in them.[/b]"

And the Bible also says that those who are living in sin are slaves to sin:

Rom.6:16: "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"

Hence, what Paul presents in Romans 7:25 is a double predicament. He is a bound by the Law (a slave to it) and bound by sin (a slave to it). It is basically a summary of everything he has said in Romans 6-7. There is no way to be freed from either the curse of the Law or the curse of sin apart from Jesus Christ. Romans 8 demonstrates how Christ has set us free from both sin and the Law.

That second quote is bad theology for a couple of reasons. 1. There are no chapter divisions, there is only the letter. 2. The mere fact that the Holy Spirit is not mentioned for a few sentences proves nothing.

Hello appolus,
Yes, I am aware that there are no chapter divisions. However, I would argue that the very absence of the Holy Spirit in verses 14-25 is of extreme significance, for this reason: Paul is contrasting the "wretched man" in Romans 7 to those who "are in Christ Jesus" in Romans 8. As was mentioned, chapter divisions [i]are[/i] unfortunate, as they may disrupt the flow of the argument. But ignore the chapters and verses for a moment and read Romans 7 and 8 all the way through. You will notice that this man to whom "the commandment came", who is "carnal, sold under sin", who needs to be delivered "from the body of this death"--is being compared to those who have already been delivered, those who are safe in the arms of the Lord, who are under "no condemnation."

The first part is full of "I"'s. I am carnal, I don't practice the good that I want to, but the evil that I hate, I don't have the abilty to carry out what is right, I am a wretched man, etc. He realizes that there's nothing IN himself that can save him. It's not even a struggle, it's utter defeat. He's a slave. He has nothing left, he has to look outside himself for help. All he can do is give a desperate plea: "Who will deliver me from the body of this death?!"

Paul then shows us that the only way of deliverance is through Jesus. He then summarizes: this defeated man is a slave to the Law in his mind, and a slave to sin in his flesh.

BUT--Paul says--those who are in Christ Jesus are NOT slaves, they are not under this condemnation; they are free from the law of sin and death, and the righteousness of the Law has been fulfilled in them (Rom.8:1-4).

Notice the difference here. Those who have been delivered (refered to in this section as "me", "us", and "you") have Christ living IN them via the Spirit. He has fulfilled the Law in us. We live according to the Spirit, we set our minds on the things of the Spirit, we have life and peace in the Spirit, the Spirit dwells in us, we can't be in the flesh if we're in the Spirit, the Spirit is life and quickens our mortal bodies, the Spirit leads us and affirms our sonship, etc.
The Spirit is mentioned in almost every verse. Even when there is a struggle (Romans 8:12-14), it's no longer "me vs. flesh" as it was in ch.7, it's "flesh vs. Spirit" and there is a note of victory.

Devotion by Watchman Nee:

For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing. for to will is present with me, but to do that which is good is not. Romans. 7.18.

Romans 6 speaks of our co-death with Christ; Romans 7 speaks of the battle between the new and the old lives; and Romans 8 speaks of the victory in the Holy Spirit. Both verse 6 and verse 11 of Romans 6 tell us that the death of our "self" is a fact. Why, then, do many believing in this truth—fail to experience the victory of Romans 8? It is because they have not failed enough.

God will let a believer fall until he willingly acknowledges, "I am sold under sin! There is no good in me!" Not till then will he know that except a power comes from outside, he is hopeless and helpless. But then will we cry out: "Wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me?" When he really perceives how corrupt he is, he will then know and acknowledge that unless Christ rescues him he cannot overcome sin.

Greeting appolus , I do understand and have the truth to thank for that..In 1 John where it says ," if we say we have no sin , we decieve ourselves and lie, and do not know the Fathers love, " really is missinterpreted. it says , and should read as such, " if we say we are incapable of sinning,not liable to sin , we lie and know not the love of the father. ... Sin is always a voluntary choice of violating the law of God. Sin never is anything involuntary, it not an appetite , or craving , nor a feeling ... We can look into the words dwelleth , and abide, in the greek.. Romans chapter 7:17,18,20.and 1 cor 3:16 paul uses the greek word,, oikeo ,, which means to occupy a house , or in other words to, Co habit ,, this is the only 4 places in scripture this word is used, please keep in mind the cohabit meaning. Now we can look at John 14:17 , john 6:56 , john14:10 , 1 john 3:24,4:12, 4:15,16 , 2 john2,the greek word for dwelleth in these scriptures is ,,, meno ,, which means= to stay , remain , abide ,dwell , indure + thine own.. this word is also used in the bible 18 times by jesus and 28 times by other apostles for the words abide and abideth. Now the significance of this usage of the word meno ,for abide and dwelleth, is that it is never used sin dweling or abiding in us , sin can only cohabit us, or in other words be a visitor in our house. GLORY TO GOD In THE HIGHEST!! HE sent His son to show us How we can live and were able to live Full to the very core and fiber of our bodies , souls and spirits ,, Cleaned from all sin by the Blood of the covenant of God.. the Covenant that He said and promised , tha He would be b In us, and with us. Sin cannot be in our Physical bodies !! the results of sin can and does effect our feeling and passions, but this is not sin itself..God sent His Son Jesus , and Jesus blood does Clean us FROM ALL SIN !! the Blood speaks LOUDLY for those who believe in its efficacy, and it says CLEAN CLEAN CLEAN , washed in the blood we are , FROM ALL Sin,,,... I know this is not taught everywhere, but this is the truth, this is the great news of the Glorious gospel and covenant of the Heavenly Father , for all His children, this is The promise , that we are hiers of ...To be a HABITATION OF GOD , in spirit ,,, in soul ,, and in body ..

May I suggest that herein may lie the problem? So often we read a verse or passage of Scripture and interpret it in the light of an experience we may have had as Christians, rather than interpreting it in the light of its context.

I believe that the first sentence is too strong. The closer I get to God the more I realize my predicament, my weaknesses, my sin, how far I actually fall short of the Living God.

I hate myself; but I have faith in God and in the power of the redeeming blood of Christ. I am a worm fit for an eternal hell, saved only by the Lamb. When I say, "I hate myself", I mean, of course, my flesh. If you could speak to John Wesley, George Whitefield, Matthew Henry, they would also tell you how much they despised themselves...because they knew they were sold under sin. Were God to grant me the prayer life of an Edward Payson, I would still abhor Paul West; were God to grant me the power of evangelism to rival that of George Whitefield, I would still despise my heart.

If all one got out of the presence of God was self-loathing, then I would seriously have to question that encounter

Hi Isaiah, you write ....

"We live according to the Spirit, we set our minds on the things of the Spirit, we have life and peace in the Spirit, the Spirit dwells in us, we can't be in the flesh if we're in the Spirit, the Spirit is life and quickens our mortal bodies, the Spirit leads us and affirms our sonship, etc.
The Spirit is mentioned in almost every verse. Even when there is a struggle (Romans 8:12-14), it's no longer "me vs. flesh" as it was in ch.7, it's "flesh vs. Spirit" and there is a note of victory. "

I believe that there is a danger of oversimplification here. The notion that because the Spirit of the living God dwells in a person then they only ever "walk in the Spirit," is an erroneous one...

Sorry if I didn't explain myself clearly...I wasn't implying that a normal Christian only ever walks in the Spirit without ever failing. I don't know if you noticed or not, but when I made the above quoted statement, all I was doing was [i]summarizing[/i] the first half of Romans 8. What I wrote is a shortened version of Romans 8:1-15.

to live is Christ ,, to die is gain,, ch. 7 of romans is NOT an auto- assessment of pauls nature. The new nature pual had was a new heart, a new birth , a new and living way . This is what paul walked in , revealed , and lived . For paul, to be alive, Was Christ. the life he lived was by Faith, paul was a perfect blameless , holy representation of Christ ,that He was called to be. we are told by him to follow and copy those things we heard and seen in him and that the God of peace would be in us as we do, as he did. How could anyone of pauls character say this to someone ,if he was not perfect and holy in all his conduct??? God is the author of our natures ,not the devil. The nature of sin is so missrepresented when it is presented as something that is physically a part of us of which we can do nothing about, except to bear with its ever perpetual nagging and harrassing us. why then would Jesus have told us to pray to God to lead us not into temptation, if we are forever in this life to be harrassed by this so called constitutionally sinful , natural inclination . If sin is a part of our nature we should inbrace its temptations and harrassments and see them as opportunities, as a means of Proving to our Heavenly Father that we love Him by denying them, and not obeying them. That with more harrasments of temptations, we prove to God we love Him more, the more temptations we deny ourselves . If The doctrine of a sinful natural inclination resident ,ever abiding with us, in our flesh , was true , then the denying of it would be part of our justification and salvation . Our not yielding to temptation would be a part of our salvation .. The Gospel OF FAITH IN CHRIST is not represented in this way . It does not fit our nature nor does it fit in with all of our relations with God , nor ourselves, nor to man .

Precisely. Paul's experience substantiates the collected quotes from all his epistles where he bemoans the weakness of flesh and his drastic inferiority...especially in comparison with the other apostles. It is by the terrifying awareness of indwelling sin that true humility towards God and man is provoked. The innate confirmation within all of us validates Paul's self-assessment in Romans 7, and I believe if a man were honest with himself, he would also concur with this diagnosis. Not because of some personal, ephemeral experience that contradicts the Word of God, but beacuse of the stark reality of his walk. I believe that the closer you get to God, the more you loathe yourself. The more we approach the light, the more vividly our blemishes and fleshly imperfections are made manifest...along with the staggering truth that we are utterly incapable of remedying them outside of the pure grace of God.

I would definately agree with you that the closer we get to God the more we see our weakness and failure and sin...but again, the question isn't: "What do we experience as believers?", or "How does this compare to other parts of Scripture where Paul talks about his weakness and inability?", or even "What do we feel when we read these verses?"
It's: "What is Paul saying and referring to in the immediate context of Romans 7?" What is it exactly that is being discussed, and how does it connect to the rest of the chapter? The answer to this question will reveal much.

One example I just thought up today (I'm hoping this works...) is Luke 18:13. Sometimes as believers we might be so under conviction of sin that we feel like we can't even lift our eyes toward heaven; we may get on our knees and even beat our breast, and say "God, be merciful to me, a sinner!" Now, in this sense, there may be some application to these verses. However, when we look at the context of the passage in Luke, we see that Jesus is giving a parable to those who are self-righteous. The person who gives this bitter moan is a character in the parable, not even a true, regenerate believer, but a man under conviction of sin. Now, we would obviously not conclude that because we as Christians have many similar experiences, the man being spoken of by the Lord Jesus must therefore be a Christian as well. That because our hearts can identify with this publican, then he must therefore be a regenerate man struggling with the flesh. No, it would be completely absurd, we would need to ridicuously prooftext the passage to say such a thing.

Now, I know things in Romans 7 get a lot more complicated, so my illustration may not have been very effective. But at the very least it serves to prove the point that it is extremely important to examine the context of a passage before coming to our conclusions as to what it is saying.

The following found in Charles Leiter's book [i]Justification and Regeneration[/i]:

Romans 7

To attempt to deal with the controversies surrounding Romans 7 would take an entire book. Only a few guidelines for its interpretation can be suggested here:

1. Romans 7 flows directly from Romans 6, continuing and expanding upon the themes that are introduced there. According to Romans 6, Christians have “died to sin”Rom 6:2,11 by virtue of their union with Christ and have therefore been “freed”Rom 6:7, 18, 22 from it, so that sin no longer has “dominion”Rom 6:14 (Gk. “dominion,” “rule”) over them. The result of this death to sin is “service”Rom 6:22 to God that brings forth “fruit”Rom 6:21-22 (Gk. “fruit”) unto sanctification. Paul repeats this pattern of triumph in Romans 7: Christians have “died to law”Rom 7:4 by virtue of their union with Christ and have therefore been “freed”Rom 7:6, 2-3 from it, so that law no longer has “dominion”Rom 7:1 (Gk. “dominion,” as in 6:14) over them. The result of this death to law is “service”Rom 7:6 to God that brings forth “fruit”Rom 7:4 unto God. In short, Paul has been “soaring”
in Romans 6, and he continues to soar in Romans 7!

The real purpose of Romans 7 is to explain and expand upon Paul’s statement in 6:14: “For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law, but under grace.” According to this verse, our deliverance from the dominion of sin is a direct result of the fact that we are no longer “under the law.” The first question to be answered is, “How has it come to pass that Christians are no longer ‘under the law’?” Paul answers this question in 7:1-4. Christians have passed out of the realm of law, having died to it by virtue of their union with Christ. The second question to be answered is, “Why is freedom from law necessary in order to secure our deliverance from the reign of sin?” Or, conversely, “Why is freedom from sin’s reign impossible for all who are still under law?” Paul answers this question in 7:5-25. All who are still “under law” are also still “in the flesh.” (v.5) But law actually stirs up and strengthens sin’s dominion over those who are in the flesh, leaving them in a state of bondage and death. (v.5, 7-25)
2. It is absolutely vital to realize that Paul thinks in terms of two and only two groups—those who are “under law” (“in the flesh”) and those who are “under grace” (“in the Spirit”).(pp. 96-98) The characteristics of these two groups are summarized both before (7:5-6) and after (8:1-4) Paul’s discussion in Romans 7:7-25. This means that in v.14-25, Paul is not describing a “carnal Christian” who has not yet “passed into Romans 8,” as the “deeper life” view of Romans 7 would tell us. All Christians are “in” Romans 8, just as all Christians are “in” Romans 6 and “in” Romans 7:6.

3. Paul has already described in detail the state of every Christian in Romans 6 and in Romans 7:1-6. We cannot ignore this description when we come to the last half of Romans 7. According to Romans 6 and Romans 7:1-6, all Christians have been “freed from sin” and have become “slaves of righteousness.”Rom 6:18 “Sin shall not be master over” Christians, for they are “not under law, but under grace.”Rom 6:14 Christians have been “joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, that they might bear fruit for God.”Rom 7:4 They are “alive from the dead.”Rom 6:13 They are no longer “in the flesh.”Rom 7:5 They “serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.”Rom 7:6

The view that Romans 7:14-25 is a description of “the Christian at his best, even of Paul at the time of writing” thus flies directly in the face of everything Paul has said up to this point. How can we read Romans 6 and 7:1-6 and still contend that all true Christians are actually “of flesh, sold into bondage to sin”!Rom 7:14

It is highly significant that this view of Romans 7 has led to the “wretched man” concept of the Christian life, where “wretchedness” and spirituality are almost equated, and the more holy we become, the more “wretched” we are. In the words of one writer: “This moan, ‘O wretched man that I am,’ expresses the normal experience of the Christian, and any Christian who does not so
moan is in an abnormal and unhealthy state spiritually. The man who does not utter this cry daily is either so out of communion with Christ, or so ignorant of the teaching of Scripture, or so deceived about his actual condition, that he knows not the corruptions of his own heart and the abject failure of his own life.”A. W. Pink, “The Christian in Romans 7” “The one who is truly in communion with Christ, will…emit this groan…daily and hourly.”Pink

It is true that in this day of glib “easy-believism” and shallow repentance multitudes of professing “Christians” desperately need a revelation of their own inner depravity and corruption. In the case of many, this would lead to bitter weeping Zech 12:10 and genuine conversion. But any true child of God who has traveled very far on the pilgrim pathway already knows quite a bit about his own wretchedness and vileness apart from the transforming power of Christ. Instead of praying that God would give us “such a view of [our] own depravity and unworthiness that [we] may indeed grovel in the dust before Him,”Pink would it not be more Scriptural to ask God for such a view of Christ’s resurrection life in us Eph 1:18-23 3:14-21 and our new nature in Him Col 3:9-13 that we might soar in the heavenlies and joyfully serve Him in newness of life?

Some theologians have tried to escape this “wretched Christian” view of Romans 7 by saying that even though Paul is speaking here of his own present experience as a believer, he is merely describing the fact that “no Christian is as holy as he wants to be.” Romans 7, according to this view, teaches only that “the Christian’s reach always exceeds his grasp” and that during this lifetime the Christian “cannot arrive at perfection.” All these statements are undoubtedly true, but they do not do justice to the degree of failure and misery evident in this passage. Paul is clearly describing here (to use his own words) a state of “wretchedness,”Rom 7:24 a state of “bondage,”Rom 7:14 and a state of inability Rom 7:18-19 to “do good.” In other words, the man of Romans 7 is not just battling with sin but utterly defeated by it, in stark contrast with Paul’s description of all true Christians in Romans 6 and Romans 7:1-6.

4. Romans 6 & 7 are structured around four questions and their corresponding answers. At the end of Romans 5, Paul makes two shocking statements that require defense and clarification. The first is that “the Law came in that the transgression might increase,” and the second is that “where sin increased, grace abounded all the more.” (v.20) Paul expects these statements to be misunderstood and distorted by others, so he sets out to clarify and defend them in chapters six and seven. He does this in terms of four questions and their corresponding answers. (6:1; 6:15; 7:7; 7:13) Each of these question-answer sections follows a very specific pattern. First, Paul poses the anticipated misunderstanding or distortion of his position. He then follows with a strong denial (“May it never be!”) and a brief summary answer to the misunderstanding. This brief answer is then clarified and expounded in the verses that follow. This pattern is invariable throughout Romans 6-7:

Romans 6:1—Question: “What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace might increase?” Strong denial: “May it never be!” Brief answer: “How shall we who died to sin still live in it?” Fuller explanation of brief answer: v.3-14.

Romans 6:15—Question: “What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace?” Strong denial: “May it never be!” Brief answer: “Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey…?” Fuller explanation of brief answer: v.17-23.

Romans 7:7—Question: “What shall we say then? Is the Law sin?” Strong denial: “May it never be!” Brief answer: “On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, ‘You shall not covet.’” Fuller explanation of brief answer: v.8-12.

Romans 7:13—Question: “Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me?” Strong denial: “May it never be!” Brief answer: “Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.” Fuller explanation of brief answer: v.14-25.

This is the setting of v.14-25! Verse 14 does not begin a new and entirely unrelated theme, as some have supposed. The subject being dealt with in this section is not “the immature Christian’s failure to walk in the Spirit” or “the mature Christian’s continuing struggle with remaining sin.” Rather, the subject here is “the goodness of the Law, in spite its effects upon those who are in the flesh.” In this connection, it is very significant that v.14 begins with
the word “for” and is immediately followed (twice!) by the word “for” in v.15.

5. Romans 7:14-25 flows from and is a continuation of Paul’s discussion in v.7-13 of the “man to whom the commandment has come.” In v.5 Paul describes the condition of those who are “in the flesh” and “under law”: “For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.” The key words here are “Law,” “sin,” and “flesh.” These three words from v.5 will form the heart of Paul’s discussion throughout the rest of the chapter.

In v.7-12 Paul begins to explain his statement in v.5 by reference to his own experience prior to conversion. There was a time when Paul lived in a state of complacent self-satisfaction: “I was once alive.” (v.9) He thought he was doing fine in keeping the Law: “As to the righteousness which is in the Law…found blameless.”Phil 3:6

But then a major turning point came in Paul’s life. By the working of God’s Spirit, “the commandment came” to him. He began to realize how deep and exacting the Law’s requirements really are and how impossible it was for him to fulfill those requirements. “Sin became alive,” and Paul “died” under the terrible conviction of his sinfulness. (How long this went on, we do not know, but we do know that before he ever met the risen Christ on the road to Damascus, it was already “hard” for Paul to “kick against the goads.”Acts 26:14) The Law, which promised life, thus resulted in death for Paul, not through any fault of its own, but because of the utter sinfulness of sin.

Up to this point in his discussion (v.13), Paul has described only the relationship between “Law” and “sin,” showing how the Law actually stirs up sin and leads to death. But he has not yet explained why Law should produce such effects. This he can do only by a discussion of “the flesh”!

This is the setting of Romans 7:14-25! Verse 14 begins with the word “for” and continues and advances Paul’s discussion of “Law, sin, and flesh” by dramatically describing in the present tense the place of sin’s reign—“the flesh”: “For we know that the Law is spiritual; but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.” (Notice that the transition to the present tense takes place quite naturally since Paul could hardly say, “We know that the Law was spiritual.”) Paul then continues in the present tense until the end of the chapter, giving a firsthand account of the “bondage to sin” experienced by those who are “in the flesh.” He does this from the vantage point of one who has now become a Christian and can see clearly the nature of the conflict that was formerly taking place in his life. For this reason the terminology that Paul uses in these verses shows much Christian influence, though it is descriptive of his pre-Christian state.

Remember again Paul’s controlling statement: “For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.” “Flesh” is controlled by “sin,” and in the presence of Law the sinful passions of the flesh will always culminate in “death.” The fact that “flesh” is Paul’s emphasis throughout this section is clear from the terminology that he uses: “of flesh, sold into bondage to sin,”Rom 7:14 “a law in the members of my body,”Rom 7:23 and “the law of sin which is in my members.”Rom 7:23 This bondage to “sin in the members” leads to the desperate cry, “Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death (margin: “this body of death”)?”Rom 7:24

Paul’s answer to this cry is given in v.25, “Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!” and more fully in 8:1-4, “There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did…in order that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.”

Notice Paul’s summary here of what he has just said at length in 7:14-25: “…what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh…”! And notice again his description of those who are Christians: “For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death…that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit”! The man of Romans 7 cries, “Who will set me free?” The Christian replies, “The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free.”

Isaac Watts sums up Paul’s teaching in Romans 7 in a hymn entitled “Conviction of Sin by the Law—Romans 7:8, 9, 14-24”:

Lord, how secure my conscience was,
And felt no inward dread!
I was alive without the law,
And thought my sins were dead.

My hopes of heav’n were firm and bright;
But, since the precept came
With a convincing pow’r and light,
I find how vile I am.

My guilt appear’d but small
before Till terribly I saw
How perfect, holy, just, and pure,
Was thine eternal law.

Then felt my soul the heavy load;
My sins reviv’d again; I had provok’d a dreadful God,
And all my hopes were slain.

I’m like a helpless captive,
sold Under the pow’r of sin:
I cannot do the good I would, Nor keep my conscience clean.

My God! I cry with every breath

For some kind pow’r to save;
To break the yoke of sin and death,
And thus redeem the slave.

Three Final Observations
In closing, three things should be noted:

1. In spite of superficial resemblances, Galatians 5:16-25 is not parallel with Romans 7. Romans 7:14-25 describes the struggle and defeat of a man who is still “in the flesh” and “under the Law.” The Holy Spirit is notably absent from the language and thought of this man. In fact, the Holy Spirit is not mentioned anywhere in the entire passage.

Galatians 5:16-25, on the other hand, describes the inevitable conflict that the Holy Spirit has with the flesh in the life of a true believer. A note of victory is sounded throughout this passage: The Christian is “not under the Law.”Gal 5:18 He has already definitively “crucified the flesh with its passions and desires” through repentance and faith in Christ.Gal 5:24 The power of the Spirit in his life effectually prevents him from following the natural inclinations of his flesh—he cannot do “as he pleases.”Gal 5:17 Since he lives “in the Spirit,” he is able now to “walk in the Spirit.”Gal 5:25 And as he “walks in the Spirit,” he is assured that he “will not carry out the desire of the flesh.”Gal 5:16 These verses are not a statement of “wretchedness,” but an assurance of victory!

The real parallel to Galatians 5:16-25 is Romans 8:12-14, where “flesh” and “Spirit” are similarly contrasted: “So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh—for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.” According to these verses, the Christian is under
no obligation to live according to the flesh. He is able, by the power of the Holy Spirit, to “put to death the deeds of the body.” In fact, being thus “led by the Spirit” is one of the distinguishing
characteristics of all who are truly “sons of God”! Notice the parallel here between being “led by the Spirit” (Romans 8:14) and “walking in the Spirit” (Romans 8:4; Galatians 5:16).

2. The man described in Romans 7:7-25 is not the typical lost “man on the street,” who knows nothing of the spirituality or real desirability of the law. The man in Romans 7:7-25 is the man to whom “the commandment has come.” He makes statements that the typical unbeliever would never make. The state of misery that he is experiencing eventuates in his coming to Christ: “Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!”Rom 7:25 From this it is evident that this man is being “taught by God” and is “hearing and learning from the Father.”John 6:45 Everyone who has thus “heard and learned from the Father” comes to Christ.John 6:45

3. There is no doubt that every true Christian has felt at times as if he were “in the middle” of Romans 7. Even the truly righteous man “falls seven times”!Prov 24:16 Christian experience always involves excruciating defeat as part of the process of learning to “walk in the Spirit.” Like Peter, we often have to learn by bitter failure the insufficiency of our own resolve.Luk 22:31-34 The question before us, however, is not, “What do Christians often experience?” but, “What is Paul teaching in Romans 7 ?”

(Those interested in reading further on this subject are referred to: Robert L. Reymond, A New Systematic Theology of the Christian Faith, Appendix F, 1127-32; Martyn Lloyd-Jones, The Law: Its Functions and Limits; and Herman Ridderbos, Paul: An Outline of His Theology, 126-30.)

Do you consider yourself no better than Judas in your Christianity? Do you walk on a razors edge, at any moment willing to sell your soul for the things that you mentioned? I do not relate to that brother

I actually consider myself no better at all than Judas Iscariot or Ahithophel or Saul or Samson, Solomon, Ahaziah, Sennacherib, etc. I am who I am by the grace of God, and I know what lurks in my heart should God retire His grace from my life and "hand me over" to my base lusts. I am capable of murder, adultery, theft, blasphemy. My foolish heart is able to be darkened at the drop of a hat if for one moment God ceased to continue the good work He began in me years ago. I love God, and what He has done for me...but I hate the sin and rebellion that dwells within my flesh, sin and rebellion that must be mortified daily by the power of the Spirit. I hate that my flesh is so allured by sin and wickedness, that my nature is so earthbound and content to remain as such.

It's: "What is Paul saying and referring to in the immediate context of Romans 7?" What is it exactly that is being discussed, and how does it connect to the rest of the chapter?

I think this is a justifiable method for determining truth (and I agree that my own experience means nothing if it's not supported by the Word).

So, agreeing with the writer, I would say that is why I had a problem with brother Paul West's statement, because I do not know him well enough to know that is it is not a case of "the more holy we become, the more “wretched” we are."

You know brother, adolescents think they know everything about the world. I remember when I was 16, I thought I knew more than my father. I thought I could run my life because of the information I accumulated from friends my own age, TV shows, movies and rock and roll songs. I got my first taste of life...and it was all about independance and self-confidence.

When we're young in the faith, it's the same principle: we get our first taste of God and the power of scripture and we suddenly think we know everything. We are irretrieveably convinced on Calvinism or Arminianism or Finnyism or on certain passages of scripture...and we shake our heads with pity and exasperation when others who are older than us in the faith try to tell us otherwise. We want our independance in very much the same way secular teenagers cultivate their own premature convictions in the world, and we persue it with a naive fervor until God in His mercy sets up a roadblock.

I thought I had Romans 7 and 8 all figured out three years ago, and I was certain that I understood the efficacy of 1 John 1:7. It took some crushing defeats, but God finally got through...and is still getting through. Not only did He set up roadblocks - He blew the highway to smithereens. It's like the teenager who thinks he can go off and live on his own. He doesn't get too far before realitiy crashes down on him and he gets arrested or hooked on drugs and any preconcpetion he had regarding the simplicity of life is totally obliterated. His innocence (and ignorance) is now stripped away, and he sees it was all a fantasy; that life isn't really like a rock and roll song or TV sitcom. The same lessons are learnt in the school of God, pertaining to scriptures and chapters like the ones being discussed in this thread.

Over and over again you've said that you don't understand how I can say that I loathe myself, and that it isn't your type of theology. I can understand: it also wasn't my type up until recently. I was a million times holier back then, Rev. Paul West. Now I'm just brother Paul and I'm no better than lowest of the low in the dregs of society without the grace of God and redeeming power of Jesus' blood. It's brought me freedom to come to this bittersweet awareness, freedom and sobriety and a boastless existence save in the cross of Christ my God.

I wish I could explain it better brother.

Dear brother Frank,

I am really speaking out of place here as it seems I am currently in a ... spiritual vacuum, yet I am compelled nonetheless. All this is so up in my thoughts currently, experientially ... I am feeling these effects if I may say so.

Maybe it just pains me that there is such a largess of agreement that some of the particulars are getting overblown. A lot of us are speaking in sweeping generalities, bereft of the personal [i]you[/i] - I do not in any way see Paul (West) associating these things to you personally or vice a versa ... Let me back up a hair and see if this is not saying the same thing;

Earlier you had mentioned;

I have found, after living in America for 19 years, that on a whole range of subjects, you only get two choices. You are either a Republican or a Democrat, a socialist or a communist, rich or poor, left or right and so on. And so the comment that one is either a sinner sold under sin and carnal or a super-saint is very typical of what I have come to expect. I think the problem is that if any Christian claims that the old man is dead, that the old man has been crucified and that we are overcomers, then they are often immediately critisized by the dwellers of Romans 7 and accused of claiming to be sinless and super-saints. What a dreadful outlook for Christians.

And prior to I had stated;

I have found, after living in America for 19 years, that on a whole range of subjects, you only get two choices. You are either a Republican or a Democrat, a socialist or a communist, rich or poor, left or right and so on. And so the comment that one is either a sinner sold under sin and carnal or a super-saint is very typical of what I have come to expect. I think the problem is that if any Christian claims that the old man is dead, that the old man has been crucified and that we are overcomers, then they are often immediately critisized by the dwellers of Romans 7 and accused of claiming to be sinless and super-saints. What a dreadful outlook for Christians.

Are we not largely stating the same thing? The black and white of it all- The 'either\\or'? Mere men! I think I am more bothered by even the suggestions and language used that even you used here however -

[i]"the dwellers of Romans 7[/i]"

This whole pitting of one against the other, brother, is this not contradicting the very thrust earlier of "[i]you only get two choices. You are either a Republican or a Democrat, a socialist or a communist, rich or poor, left or right and so on.[/i]"?

Sigh ... it may very well just be me, I am more and more losing all relish for a sort of theological needlepoint or a dissecting of every jot to put it back together again into a 'view' or a 'position' ... Bear with me, it's not any accusation towards anyone just guttural ... expulsion.

The whole of this, this letter - is it not linear? Continual? It seems almost strange that we can both decry the extremes and at the same time accept them.

Galatians 5:16-25, on the other hand, describes the inevitable conflict that the Holy Spirit has with the flesh in the life of a true believer. A note of victory is sounded throughout this passage: The Christian is “not under the Law.”Gal 5:18 He has already definitively “crucified the flesh with its passions and desires” through repentance and faith in Christ.Gal 5:24 The power of the Spirit in his life effectually prevents him from following the natural inclinations of his flesh—he cannot do “as he pleases.”Gal 5:17 Since he lives “in the Spirit,” he is able now to “walk in the Spirit.”Gal 5:25 And as he “walks in the Spirit,” he is assured that he “will not carry out the desire of the flesh.”Gal 5:16 These verses are not a statement of “wretchedness,” but an assurance of victory!

But isn't the grand word here really - [i][b]IF[/b][/i]? Maybe what this boils down to if we [i]must[/i] makes sides out of it is a thing of presumption? By making sides it seems to follow that it is easier to paint or stereotype one as grovelling in the mud, of being in bondage etc. etc. and the other ... "Victory!" I will admit that due to the abuses of the language especially in this day and age I cringe to hear that word unfortunately, it seems now to have all the connotations of great presumption, yes the "Super Saint" mentality - strutting and "proclaiming" and ... [i]Boasting[/i].

And that is something I cannot shake from Paul's writings, over and over again ...

Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then?

And all [i]that[/i] context that precludes and is included in this letter.

I do not know if I am making the sense of this that I would - I just do not see the necessity of splitting this into categorical terms ...

The man of Romans 7 cries

That still bothers .. it is the same man! The same man from 1-16.

It is true that in this day of glib “easy-believism” and shallow repentance multitudes of professing “Christians” desperately need a revelation of their own inner depravity and corruption. In the case of many, this would lead to bitter weeping Zech 12:10 and genuine conversion. But any true child of God who has traveled very far on the pilgrim pathway already knows quite a bit about his own wretchedness and vileness apart from the transforming power of Christ.

Alas! Yes!

Instead of praying that God would give us “such a view of [our] own depravity and unworthiness that [we] may indeed grovel in the dust before Him,”Pink would it not be more Scriptural to ask God for such a view of Christ’s resurrection life in us Eph 1:18-23 3:14-21 and our new nature in Him Col 3:9-13 that we might soar in the heavenlies and joyfully serve Him in newness of life?

... Why must this be so? The agreement is there but now the ballast is overturned so that we [i]might soar in the heavenlies[/i]? I am sorry I do not wish to be so didactic - "[i]joyfully serve Him in newness of life[/i]" Why of course!

I apologize again if this is discombobulated I am writing out of present experience, a sort of drift and where I am pulling back on the chain of the anchor ... to get back.

My long observation and experience and I will have to use the old tortuous, contentious Cal\\Arm controversy as illustrative. What I have noticed is that we are very often very poor explainers of others ... 'holdings'. That is as unfortunate as it is that we divide off into these camps and constructs, whether as this business of Romans 'wretch\\saint' or the Cal\\Am debacle - We fail greatly by re-stating the others 'position'- I am pretty sure I have done so already here.

Have been reading a great book on John Newton a sort of biography that in all honesty did not surprise me in the least - There was a post a little while back regarding a letter he wrote to Wesley and the lack of surprise was to find that they had a great deal of association over the years. Newton was or has\\had a strong Calvinist bent\\upbringing and yet still had the wonderful 'non-denominational' mindset that actually hindered and got himself into all kinds of various troubles. Back in those times there was something that has long gone out of favor in ours - The charge of 'enthusiasm' (Part and parcel due to his slight associations with Wesley)- This, they labeled upon him indiscriminately and wrongly, it kept him out the Established Church where he was inclined and desired to become a minister in for a long time. I would say that this day and age has taken the 'enthusiasm' that once was a guard against excess and ... extremes and made it something to be championed, desired ... [i]promoted[/i].

What does it all amount to or where am I appealing?

I just do not understand why it is so difficult to grasp holding things in tension, in 'balance', in abeyance - That two seemingly opposite things can go on at the same time - That our misunderstandings often are the products of poor explaining or a sort of [i]This is what you are then implying[/i], when it is just not so. It is not what I mean, you mean or in this case what Paul means. We end up largely saying the same things and then go to pieces ... dissecting the pieces!

Over and over again you've said that you don't understand how I can say that I loathe myself, and that it isn't your type of theology. I can understand: it also wasn't my type up until recently. I was a million times holier back then, Rev. Paul West. Now I'm just brother Paul and I'm no better than lowest of the low in the dregs of society without the grace of God and redeeming power of Jesus' blood. It's brought me freedom to come to this bittersweet awareness, freedom and sobriety and a boastless existence save in the cross of Christ my God.

This is the same sort of relief or liberty that I was hoping to convey earlier - It is a freedom of recognition ... The great stamp on this, to my mind, is one word that I practically want to scream aloud ...

I thank God [b][u]through[/u][/b] Jesus Christ our Lord.

Through!

So then -

with the mind
I myself serve
the law of God;

but with the flesh
the law of sin.

Rom 7:25

A plain reading suggests this as stating the obvious or calling the kettle black.

My problem I guess is that the whole flood of scriptures comes from all quarters - Not to paint this one way but perhaps I am after all.

Mat 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

The turn of a phrase - The flesh is weak and yet is it not strong in the sense that even Paul alludes to? Weak to overcome but strong to pant after temptations and desire, right back into the heart of Paul's expressions.

So many things that come into play -

1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

The word "remember" - From where you came from, what you [i]are[/i] apart from ...

Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

In, of, through.

This morning was reading through Micah;

... shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?

He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? Mic 6:6-8

And on to;

Therefore I will look unto the LORD; I will wait for the God of my salvation: my God will hear me. Rejoice not against me, O mine enemy: when I fall, I shall arise; when I sit in darkness, the LORD shall be a light unto me. I will bear the indignation of the LORD, because I have sinned against him, until he plead my cause, and execute judgment for me:

Mic 7:7-9

Finally;

Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy.

He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; he will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea.

Mic 7:18,19

To me, it all speaks of being cognizant of our frame and of being humble and humbled - Of indeed smiting ourselves not to the dust of ... some sort of exteme, but in this duality of life, oh are we not truly depraved even as we are saved? Is it not the whole grand mystery, the [i]amazing[/i] grace that it is? Is it not forever and always just that, [i]amazing[/i]?

Security and victory and all these extrapolations, this tension of [i]knowing[/i] that the Lords word is true, that none can snatch us away yet with certainty it stops us not from up and leaving or not in the least from drifting ... That at the very end of it all, to come before Him will still be amazement upon amazement that this thing can be so?

It just seems that simple and that complicated, all at the same time. We flesh dwellers, we mere creatures, so full of conceptions and constructs - ultimately at Gods mercy and what a mercy it is!

It is ... a marvel.

hello brother paul, I like what you have said here about seeing yourself , in comparison to God . I am not one of those who thinks He knows it all ,and that is living in entire sanctification at this time. I think of Hebrews where it says that All things are subject unto Jesus , yet we do not yet see all things subject unto Him, YET we SEE HIM . IT is all in the vision of Christ and the eye being single .. Looking unto Him always .. I can also say here that i realy love a little book from ...FENELON.. called " the seeking heart"" it is ver ygood on speaks much on the death blows that God inflicts upon us by the Cross of Christ. I love coming together with the body of Christ and reasoning together, yet I love more than all, to Be able to sit and hear and be led by the Holy Spirit to See Jesus and to know How to be transformed in to His image.. I live in tulsa, ok. so i am surrounded by those who think they are rich in God and think they have all that they can say or imagine. Seems like it is a perfect example of Getting out of philidelphia and into laodicea .. This example seems to me, to be of the kind of person you spoke of in your post. Have you heard of Clayton Sunmore ? He taught of the feast of pentecost and how we as Christians are not to stop there But Go on into the feast of tabernacles. He also wrote an article called " Show the house to the house. " I would like to find this article and others from Him . I appreciate sermon index. net greatly , God bless you and may keep looking unto Jesus. Amen . clint

God bless you clintstone, and may the Lord bless our dear brother Frank. I am honored to know the both of you, to name you as brothers and friends, even in our supposed discrepancies and in my misgivings. I regret that I have not expressed myself very well in this thread, and in more than one area I have been unduly forthright doctrinally. This is not becoming for a moderator and I sincerely apologize to you both.

May the Lord bless us with abounding wisdom and grace in every aspect of our walks with Christ, and may He spiritually prosper these forums in ways where others can come and drink and grow immeasurably.

Brother Paul

crsschk wrote:
I just do not understand why it is so difficult to grasp holding things in tension, in 'balance', in abeyance - That two seemingly opposite things can go on at the same time . . .

EDIT: While the light, or truth remains constant, one's interpretation changes depending on where you are located in the cycle. None being greater than the other as each passes through the ever changing landscape.

I am well aware that my posts are so condense and not all the pieces are there. the holy spirit has had me go to 1 thes. 4:1-7 the other day . there paul speaks of our sanctification and that whoever rejects it , rejects God, in the matter . Today the holy spirit had me go to John 3 and read the whole chapter. There Jesus exsplains to nicodemus about being born again. Being born of the Holy Spirit.. the Key statements that Jesus ministered to me were , john 3:5-8 ,, john 3:18-21 ,, .Now what i see of Jesus life ,way,and truth her in these verses is that the seperation of flesh and spirit needs to be rightfully understood and this would go a long way to rightfully understanding romans chapters5 through chapters 12 actually . romans chapter 12 exsplains the transformation which takes place when we renew our minds. then we look back at romans 8:26 , the Spirit interceeding on our behalf !! WHY ? the awnser is so that we can see how to gain faith and receive that for which all Christians truly Hope for and that is to be sanctified wholly spirit soul and body...and to be filled with all the fulness of God.. I do not Claim to be thoroughly purged , but i do claim to hope for that, and i shall have it ,, in this life i have had it , and i have had the tangible baptism in pure Holy Ghost fire where liquid waves of consuming love for a full month without leaving me, I feel Gods presence of His spirit on my body more than i feel the water on me when i am swimming in a swimming pool.. I have prophysied a major event in history before it happened and have opperated in the gifts of the spirit, so that people have been healed , and glorified God for touching them. All these things matter not too me , they should happen regularly in me. All that matters to me is that I have something to give to my bretheren that is truely from God.. Smith Wigglesworth said it best when He said that God keeps on breaking him and breaking him. All we need to do is let God deal to us the death blow of the cross . Some people learn this fast and others learn this lesson slow. I tell a an absolute gospel truth , that the bible teaches, and that i have stressed to you all here .. is that the sin nature teaching, that says sin is alive in a Christians body no matter how sanctified he is , is not true.. any scriptures that one uses to account for this doctrine are misunderstood.. The Blood of Jesus is much , much more efficient than this supposition, that the so called sin nature would reside futher down in us than the Blood of Jesus could reach into our physical spiritual or mental constitutions. my only claim is and has been that the Blood cleanses from all sin and that includes the mistaught sin nature. God bless you guys . rejoice always , pray in the Holy Ghost , sing in the Holy Ghost be filled in your mind and surely your physical bodies will be to , then out of you shall flow LIVING WATERS

Behold, how good and how pleasant it is For brothers to dwell together in unity!

I appreciate the diversity within the Body of Christ, and that we can learn from those that see things from a different angle than we do.

Even those with apposing views have given us light on this subject.

Mike

hello brother , the last of all things that i want to be to anyone is a reason of offence or stumbling . I read today in 1 Cor 1:26-29, are the verses that stood out in my mind and that God has chosen the things which are not , to bring to bring to nought things that are .. that no flesh should Glory in His presence.. in the verses prceeding these, paul says that we preached Christ crucified, and that, to us who believe, is the power of God . It is my understanding that God has done away with the emnity that was between us, which is our flesh , and that the veil was tore on the cross and that veil, was the veil of Jesus' flesh, as is stated in Hebrews that we now have a way into the Holy of holies right into the throne room of God . I believe with all that i am that the Holy Spirit has shown me that Jesus' blood cleanses my flesh as clean as Jesus flesh was when He walked here on earth. I know that Jesus was tempted in all points as we are . His not yeilding to the devil and temptation show us that we can and could then follow Him and that in Him we have a way of escape out of every temptation and thereby NEVER Sin , by always following Him.. John is the best teacher that builds the best blocks of reasoning that show us what is the Love of God [ agape ] and How we prove that we are in it , or out of it, and How to get back in it. I do love you and just always remember the bible never contradicts itself and it always fits perfect with are[ God made ] natures and our [ God made] relations. And that the devil only twists the truth. God has sent His son and His son sent the Holy Ghost to teach us all things concerning Him. don't trust yourself, don't trust others to do only what the Holy Spirit can do. Christians have a new nature now, certainly we are renewed in it. When people refer to mans fallen nature being sinful and that adam passed this nature to us all, need to know that results of sin is not the same as sin. Adam passed on the results of sin to all of us and that is a twisted, jumbled, confussed mess. Jesus came to make All the crooked paths straight, all we need to do is be His disciplined followers and We will then be as He is in this world. A triumphant overcoming Christian. God bless , I'll keep in touch. Clint