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The King James or a Newer Version?

S
sermonindex

[b]
Check out these verses of Scripture, 1st in the NIV, then in the KJV:[/b]

Mark 1 (New International Version)
Mark 1
1 The beginning of the gospel about Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

2 [b] It is written in Isaiah the prophet:

I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way— [/b]

3 a voice of one calling in the desert, 'Prepare the way for the Lord, make straight paths for him.'

Mark 1 (King James Version)
Mark 1
1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

2 [b] As it is written in the prophets,[/b] Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

As you probably noticed in the 2nd verse of the New International Version (NIV) it says:[b]
“…It is written in Isaiah the prophet…”
I have no problem with the accuracy of the translation from the Alexandrian text-based MSS from which the NIV was TRANSLATED. It is no doubt a correct and accurate TRANSLATION OF the Alexandrian text.

The problem is that the words quoted in the NIV’s 2nd and 3rd verses ARE NOT ALL FROM THE PROPHET ISAIAH.[/b]

[b][color=990000]These words were obviously translated from bogus manuscripts. And here’s why……[/color][/b]

“…I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way…” is not from Isaiah.

[b]Those words are from the book of Malachi, chapter three and verse one.[/b]

[b]Here are the words from Isaiah:
“…a voice of one calling in the desert, 'Prepare the way for the Lord, make straight paths for him…”[/b]

[b]So you see, the real Word of God, written by an author who was inspired of the Holy Spirit, copied and translated by men who were called and anointed by the Holy Spirit, who produced an accurate English translation that was ordained and preserved by the Holy Spirit – knew that those words were from TWO different prophets of God, NOT just Isaiah!

Thus, we have the real and genuine Word of God saying, “…As it is written in the prophets…” [/b]

[b][color=CC0000]In conclusion, I think that the reason all those “older” manuscripts (referred to in all of the newer "Bible versions") are in such good shape is because the 1st, 2nd and 3rd century Christians took one look at those bogus versions of Mark’s gospel, and said, “…Who wrote this JUNK?” “This is NOT the Word of God!”
They probably took them to the local used Gnostic book stores where they must have had to actually pay them to take the parchments off their hands. Much like trying to sell one of those green Watchtower bibles today.[/color][/b]

Sincerely,

Walter

H
HomeFree89

In conclusion, I think that the reason all those “older” manuscripts (referred to in all of the newer "Bible versions") are in such good shape is because the 1st, 2nd and 3rd century Christians took one look at those bogus versions of Mark’s gospel, and said, “…Who wrote this JUNK?” “This is NOT the Word of God!”

Interesting opinion... Too bad we'll never know what the early Christians thought.

T
TrueWitness

waltern wrote:

In conclusion, I think that the reason all those “older” manuscripts (referred to in all of the newer "Bible versions") are in such good shape is because the 1st, 2nd and 3rd century Christians took one look at those bogus versions of Mark’s gospel, and said, “…Who wrote this JUNK?” “This is NOT the Word of God!” They probably took them to the local used Gnostic book stores where they must have had to actually pay them to take the parchments off their hands. Much like trying to sell one of those green Watchtower bibles today.

This is pure speculation on your part and there is no historical evidence to back it up with. James White confronts this type of thinking in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxwLnuza6R4

G
ginnyrose

Check out Isaiah 40:3.

ginnyrose

S
sermonindex

To TrueWitness:

Thank you for the link to James White, which I did take the time to view.

James White is one of the "scholars" of our day (identical to the "scholars" of today who have taken over our Bible Colleges) that has followed in the foot steps of the original "scholars" who were Brooks Westcott & Fenton Hort (when they published their "Revised New Testament" in 1881, of which ALL OF THE NEWER BIBLE VERSIONS RELY)---and really think they know better than God because[b] they do not believe God because God's Word tells us that He will Preserve His Word, yet they do not believe what God has said! They have become the ultimate Textural Critics of the very Words of God. They say that you have to KNOW THE ORIGINAL LANGUAGE TO GET A BETTER UNDERSTANDING, BUT THEN TURN RIGHT AROUND AND REJECT THE ORIGINAL LANGUAGE, EVEN WHEN THE MAJORITY OF MANUSCRIPTS DISAGREE WITH WHAT THEY THINK IS BETTER THAN WHAT GOD SAID![/b]

Below is a list of manuscript evidence for the two readings.[b] Remember, when you see Byzantine text that it is talking about over ninety-five percent of the available manuscripts today! Don't be fooled by a list of manuscripts that looks even in count, but has Bytantine listed in one group. [/b]

The following manuscripts contain the reading [b]'IN THE PROPHETS'[/b] as does the KJV, the place following the / is where the ms can be seen, and the Roman numeral is the century (ie V= 5th Century, or 400 A.D.) the ms dates to:

A Alexandrinus/London V
K Uncial 017/Paris IX
P Uncial 024/Leningrad VI
W Uncial 032/Washington V
II Uncial 041/Leningrad IX
f/13 Family 13 manuscripts include 13 (XIII), 69 (XV), 124 (XI), 346, (XII), 543 (XII),
788 (XI), 826 (XII), 828 (XII), 983 (XII), 1689, (XIII); All of which are miniscules.

All of the following are Miniscule mss.

28 Miniscule/XI
1009 Miniscule/1200 AD
1010 Miniscule/XII
1079 Miniscule/X
1195 Miniscule/1223 AD
1216 Miniscule/XI
1230 Miniscule/1224 AD
1242 Miniscule/XIII
1253 Miniscule/XV
1344 Miniscule/XII
1365 Miniscule/XII
1546 Miniscule/1263 AD (?)
2148 Miniscule/1337 AD

Byz The Majority of Byzantine Manuscripts dating from 450 thru the XVII (17th Century, or 1600 A.D.)

Lect/m The Majority of Lectionaries in the Menologion.

syr/h The Syrian Harclean Peshetta/2nd to the 7th century

cop/bo/ms-mg The Coptic (Bohairic) ms=manuscript mg=marginal note/3rd to 6th century

arm Armemian Version (Zohrab)/4th or 5th century

eth Ethiopic Version/6th century

Irenaius/lst Church Father/202 AD

Photitus /895,

Theophylact /1077,

As you can see, the testimony support the KJV reading is vast, and covers everywhere from the beginning of the 2nd century AD [b](Time of John) to the early modern era.[/b]

[b][color=990000]Please Note, that the majority of the following are corrupt Alexandrian texts.[/color][/b]

[b]"ISAIAH THE PROPHET" [/b]is found in the following manuscripts.
Codex Sinaiticus (4th cent.)
Codex Vaticanus (4th cent.)
Codex Bezae (6th cent.) also known as Codex D
Codex Regius (8th cent.) also known as Codex L
Codex Delta (9th cent.)
Codex Theta (9th cent.)

It is also in the following minuscules.
33 (9th cent)
565 (9th cent.)
892 (9th cent.)
700 (11th cent.)
1071 (12th cent.)
1241 (12th cent.)
2174 (14th cent.)

Additionally, the reading is found in the following translations.
Some old Latin, vulgate, syrian, copic, and gothic versions.

[b]"in the prophets" is supported by the following manuscripts.
Codex Alexandruinus (5th cent.) also known as Codex A
Codex K (9th cent.)
Codex P (6th cent.)
Codex Washingtonus (5th cent.) also known as Codex W
Codex Leningradus (9th cent.)

The reading is also found in the following minuscules.
28 (11th cent.)
1009 (13th cent.)
1010 (12th cent.)
1079 (10th cent.)
1195 (1123 AD)
1216 (11th cent.)
1230 (1124 AD)
1242 (13th cent.)
1253 (15th cent.)
1344 (12th cent.)
1365 (12th cent.)
1546 (1263 AD)
1646 (1172 AD)
2148 (1337 AD)

The reading can also be found among the following early translations. Syrian, copic, armian, and in the Byzantine text[/b]

Sincerely,

Walter



TrueWitness wrote:
waltern wrote:

In conclusion, I think that the reason all those “older” manuscripts (referred to in all of the newer "Bible versions") are in such good shape is because the 1st, 2nd and 3rd century Christians took one look at those bogus versions of Mark’s gospel, and said, “…Who wrote this JUNK?” “This is NOT the Word of God!” They probably took them to the local used Gnostic book stores where they must have had to actually pay them to take the parchments off their hands. Much like trying to sell one of those green Watchtower bibles today.

This is pure speculation on your part and there is no historical evidence to back it up with. James White confronts this type of thinking in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxwLnuza6R4


H
HomeFree89

Walter,

How do you know that the TR is the best text? What proof can you give to us that it is the TR and not the other texts, that is right?

J
JaySaved

As you probably noticed in the 2nd verse of the New International Version (NIV) it says:
“…It is written in Isaiah the prophet…”
I have no problem with the accuracy of the translation from the Alexandrian text-based MSS from which the NIV was TRANSLATED. It is no doubt a correct and accurate TRANSLATION OF the Alexandrian text.

The problem is that the words quoted in the NIV’s 2nd and 3rd verses ARE NOT ALL FROM THE PROPHET ISAIAH.

These words were obviously translated from bogus manuscripts.

Actually, if you think about it, wouldn't it make more sense to say that the later copyists altered the words "in Isaiah the prophet" (a reading found in the earliest representative witnesses of the Alexandrian and the Western types of text) to the more comprehensive introductory formula "in the prophets"?

As to any issues concerning the inerrancy of scripture please see A.T. Robertson's notes on this passage:

In Isaiah, the prophet (en tōi Esaiāi tōi prophētēi). The quotation comes from Mal_3:1 and Isa_40:3. The Western and Neutral classes read Isaiah, the Alexandrian and Syrian, “the prophets,” an evident correction because part of it is from Malachi. But Isaiah is mentioned as the chief of the prophets. It was common to combine quotations from the prophets in testimonia and catenae (chains of quotations). This is Mark’s only prophetic quotation on his own account (Bruce).

FYI: I used Bruce Metzger's Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament for this response. I recommend it to all who desire to know why the modern translations made the changes they made.[url=http://www.amazon.com/Textual-Commentary-Greek-New-Testament/dp/1598561642/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1235353574&sr=8-1]Link to Book[/url]

S
sermonindex

To JaySaved:


This is exactly the kind of response I would expect from a “scholar”, from one of the elite. In other words, you are saying that everyone who wants to really understand and know the Bible, must have a total understanding of Greek and Hebrew, as well as a little "Textural Criticism" thrown in to boot. This is a necessity, you say, because only “scholars” can understand and teach God’s Word. Only "scholars" know the real deal.

"I am the LORD, I change not."
Malachi 3:6

[b]We must remember that the Bible is a spiritual book and is understandable to those who are led by God's Spirit. It is not possible for the natural man to understand it [I Corinthians 2:14], hence paraphrasing or simplifying it will do no good.[/b] The Bible is not supposed to read like a fairy tale--Peter said, "for we have not followed cunningly devised fables" [II Peter 1:16]. The words of the Authorized King James are not laborious -- they are beautiful and full of God's power. Even the world knows it--the Authorized King James has been listed on Norton Anthology's list of "the world's best literature" for decades.


In the not so far distant past the Roman Catholic Church made it impossible for the common man to read a Bible. Only the educated Priests and Monks had access to the Bible, and it was a crime, punishable by death, for ANYONE ELSE to read the Bible. It was the job of the Roman Catholic Church to tell the people what the Bible really meant.

[b]When Luther finally broke away from Rome, and had the Bible printed in German for the common man, did he use the text from the corrupt Roman Catholic Bible? No, of course not! He used the text found in early believing Church, that was passed down to us from the first believers at Antioch in the 1st Century, and is drastically different than the corrupt text that was used to create the Roman Catholic Bible---the same corrupt text used to create the Roman Catholic Bible was used to create the 1881 "Revised New Testament" by Westcott & Hort---the same corrupt text that has been used as the basis of every new "Bible version" since 1881
(the NIV, NASB,The Message,etc, etc. etc.):
[/b]

[b]A BRIEF HISTORY OF THE KING JAMES BIBLE AND ITS GREEK TEXT:[/b]

I. Believers at Antioch (1st. century)

A. The believers in Antioch were the first to be called "Christians" (Acts 11:26).

B. Since Antioch is in Syria, they translated the Bible into Old Syrian. This Bible agrees with the KJB and not the Catholic line of mss.

C. The believers at Antioch copied the Scriptures in both Syrian and Greek on papyrus (a paper-like material).

II. Believers in Greece (1st.-3rd. century)
A. They used the Greek text of Antioch and rejected the Greek text of Alexandria Egypt as corrupt. (Fuller, p. 194-215).

B. This is the church which departed from Rome and the Catholic church in the 4th century. History shows that the text of the KJB always goes away from the Roman Catholic Church. This being a historical fact, then why go back to Rome to make a new translation?

C. These believers copied Scripture on papyrus in both Greek and Old Latin (not Jerome's Latin Vulgate, but Old Latin). This Bible was translated in 150 A.D. and agrees in its text with the KJB, not the modern translations.

III. Believers in Northern Italy (3rd.-12th century)

A. They copied and used the Old Latin Bible and rejected the vulgate as corrupt.

B. These believers were called "Waldensens" and were known for the evangelism they did and the street preaching.

C. During the Inquisitions by the Catholic church, the Waldensens were the believers who were put to death (see "Foxe's Book of Martyr's")

IV. Believers in Early England and France (2nd.-17th. century)

A. They used the Old Latin Bible of the Waldensens as the official translation. They also copied the Greek text which later came to be called the Receptus.

B. These believers were very evangelistic and suffered much under Rome.

V.[b] Erasmus (1466-1536 A.D.)
A. Erasmus compiled the Greek mss. of the believers in Greece, Italy, England, and France and the Old Syrian and Latin translations to produce the Greek N.T. the Reformers used.

B. Note, this was the Greek text of the Reformation. This line always goes away from Rome.

VI. Luther (16th. century)

A. Luther translated the Bible into German using the text of Erasmus. He rejected the Greek text of the Catholic church (the text modern translations use).

B. Luther was the father of the Reformation.

VII. The King James Bible (1611)

A. The N.T. was translated off the Greek text of the Reformation. The translators rejected Jerome's Vulgate and the Catholic Bible.[/b]

B. The translators were men of God who knew their task. Note the following concerning a few of the translators of the Y-M.

1. Dr. Lansalot Andrews He was the chairman. He spoke 20 languages. He spent 5 hours a day in prayer. (see E. M. Bound, "Power Through Prayer" p. 33).

2. Dr. John Reynolds, Puritan leader. He spoke Hebrew and Greek as well as he could English by the time he was 18 years old.

3. Dr. John Boise He spoke Hebrew by the time he was 5 Years old. By the time he was 14 years old he spoke Greek. He spent from 4:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m. studying each day.

4. Dr. Miles Smiths: He spoke Chaldee, Syriac, and Arabic as well as he could English. He also served with Dr. Thomas Bilson as one of the two final editors of the whole King James Bible.

5. Dr. William Bedwell: He was called the father of Arabic studies in England. He wrote Lexicons in Arabic, Hebrew, Syriac and Chaldean. (Note: a Lexicon is like a Dictionary telling the meaning of words and their root meaning).

6. Dr. Thomas Holland: Not only was he a great Hebrew and Greek scholar, but a man of great dedication to God. His dying words were, "Come, 0 come, Lord Jesus, Thou Morning Star! Come, Lord Jesus; I desire to be dissolved and to be with Thee."

7. Dr. Laurence Chaderton: He was noted for his knowledge of Latin, Hebrew and Greek. He also spoke French, Spanish, and Italian ' Because of his Christian faith his father cut him off from his family. People enjoyed his preaching so much that they would beg him to preach even after he had just preached a two hour sermon! He was committed to personal witnessing. He said of his household servants, "I desire as much to have my servants know the Lord as myself."

8. All the translators of the KJB suffered under the reign of Queen Mary (also called "Bloody Mary") before James became King of England. This is the only Bible committee to suffer persecution of their faith.

NOTE: For more information on the above translators and the others, see "Which Bible?" pp. 13-24, or the book by Dr. Gustavus S. Paine, "The Men Behind The KJB"

C. The text of the KJB is the same today as it was in 1611.

D. The translators of the KJB believed they translated the pure word of God.

[b]E. The Greek text of the KJB is based on the majority of all Greek mss. and the line of Bible Believers throughout Church history.

F. The KJB is the Bible of the Great Awakening, the Well's Revival, the preaching of Edwards, Wesley, Moody, Carry, Hudson Taylor, Sunday, Spurgeon, etc., and every major revival from 1611 until now! No modern translation (or its Greek text) can make the same claim.

Matthew 12:33 "Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known of his fruit."[/b]

1. The tree of the modern translation is corrupt, how can the translation be good?

2. The tree of the KJB is pure, how can the translation be bad?

[b]3. The fruit of the KJB is Reformation and Revival, not Rome.

4. The modern translation says it is with error, the KJB says it is without error. Which one would you want to read???[/b]

5. The Bible always calls for choices (Josh. 24:15); this is also true in reading a Bible translation. You must choose which one you will read. Do so, not by what men say, but by the Word of God

God is unchangeable. God's word is unchangeable too. In Matthew 24:35, the Lord Jesus said, "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away."

[b]Who was God's Word translated for?

Answer? The common man. [/b]

Sincerely,

Walter
:-)


JaySaved wrote:
As you probably noticed in the 2nd verse of the New International Version (NIV) it says:
“…It is written in Isaiah the prophet…”
I have no problem with the accuracy of the translation from the Alexandrian text-based MSS from which the NIV was TRANSLATED. It is no doubt a correct and accurate TRANSLATION OF the Alexandrian text.

The problem is that the words quoted in the NIV’s 2nd and 3rd verses ARE NOT ALL FROM THE PROPHET ISAIAH.

These words were obviously translated from bogus manuscripts.

Actually, if you think about it, wouldn't it make more sense to say that the later copyists altered the words "in Isaiah the prophet" (a reading found in the earliest representative witnesses of the Alexandrian and the Western types of text) to the more comprehensive introductory formula "in the prophets"?

As to any issues concerning the inerrancy of scripture please see A.T. Robertson's notes on this passage:

In Isaiah, the prophet (en tōi Esaiāi tōi prophētēi). The quotation comes from Mal_3:1 and Isa_40:3. The Western and Neutral classes read Isaiah, the Alexandrian and Syrian, “the prophets,” an evident correction because part of it is from Malachi. But Isaiah is mentioned as the chief of the prophets. It was common to combine quotations from the prophets in testimonia and catenae (chains of quotations). This is Mark’s only prophetic quotation on his own account (Bruce).

FYI: I used Bruce Metzger's Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament for this response. I recommend it to all who desire to know why the modern translations made the changes they made.[url=http://www.amazon.com/Textual-Commentary-Greek-New-Testament/dp/1598561642/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1235353574&sr=8-1]Link to Book[/url]

T
TaylorOtwell

Actually, Walter, the "tree" of the KJV is not pure. It's a state Bible that had alterior motives behind it, and many Puritans knew that. The Geneva Bible was the people's Bible and was translated by Christians fleeing from persecution, it had nothing to do with any government, nor did it need any governments "authorization".

With care in Christ,
Taylor


S
sermonindex


To TaylorOtwell:

Actually, there is not a dimes worth of difference between the King James Translation or the Geneva Bible Translation of the Koine Greek text passed down from the believing Church.

The true difference is found between the text passed down from the believing Church, that culminated in the Autorized King James Bible, compared to the corrupt text of the Gnostics, that was used to create the Catholic Bible, and then used in the 1881 New Testament of Westcott and Hort, and then used in ALL OF THE NEWER VERSIONS SINCE 1881---who have relied on the same corrupt Gnostic text.

In my previous post I listed a Brief History of the King James Bible and it’s Text.

Now, it is time to post the Text used to create the Catholic Bible and all modern translations that come from it:

[b]A BRIEF HISTORY OF MODERN TRANSLATIONS:[/b]
"Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit: but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit." —Matt. 7:17-18

[b]Note the roots of corruption. [/b]

I. Justin Martyr (100 A.D.)

A. He was born a pagan, and died in the robes of a pagan priest.

B. He was the first to mix Gnosticism with Christianity. Gnosticism was a heretical doctrine which taught that Christ was created by God the Father. Funk and Wagnall's Standard Dictionary defines Gnosticism as "A philosophical and religious system (first to sixth century) teaching that knowledge rather than faith was the key to salvation." Many scholars today place their knowledge above faith in God's word.

"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" —Rom. 10:17

C. Historian Dr. Benjamin G. Wilkinson wrote, [b]"In the teachings of Justin Martyr, we begin to see how muddy the stream of pure Christian doctrine was running among the heretical seats fifty years after the death of the apostle John."[/b]

("Which Bible?". ed. Dr. David 0. Fuller, Grand Rapids International Pub., Grand Rapids, Mica., 49501, p. 191)

II. Tatian (150 A.D.)

A.\tHe was a disciple of Justin Martyr.
Like Martyr, he also embraced Gnosticism.

B.\tTatian wrote a harmony of the gospels using the Christian Scriptures and the Gnostic gospels,[b] thus omitting Scripture (such as John 8:1-11; and Mark 16.9-20). His "Harmony of the Gospels" was so corrupt that the Bishop of Syria threw out 200 copies.[/b]

III. Clement of Alexandria (200 A.D.)

A. Clement was a disciple of Tatian (Remember Luke 6:40-"The disciple is not above his master: but everyone that is perfect shall be as his master.")

B.[b] Clement taught that there was no real heaven or hell, no blood atonement of Christ, and no infallible Bible.[/b]

C. He used the Gnostic Scriptures to teach his students.

D. He founded the school of Theology in Alexandria Egypt.

IV. Origen (184-254 A.D.)

A. Origen was a disciple of Clement of Alexandria.

B.He held to the same doctrine as Clement, plus he taught baptism was necessary for babies to gain salvation.

C. Origen stated, "The Scriptures are of little use to those who understand them as they are written." (Ibid. p. 192).

D. Dr. Wilkinson stated, "When we come to Origen, we speak the name of him who did the most of all to create and give direction to the forces of apostasy down through the centuries." (Ibid.).

E.[b] Origen was one of the first textual critics. His textual work in both the N.T. and the O.T. (the "Hexapla") was the basis for two of the most corrupt manuscripts used by the Roman Catholic Church. (Vaticanus and Sinaiticus).[/b]

F. Origen developed a method of Biblical interpretation which is called "allegorization". Origen believed the Bible was only a set of stories that illustrate truth, but not literal facts. He believed Christ to be created and subordinate to the Father (the same as Jehovah's Witnesses), the pre-existence of the soul before birth (the same as the Mormons), and the final restoration of all spirits (Universal Salvation). (see Dr. Earle Cairns "Christianity Through The Centuries", Zondervan Publishing House, p. 122).

V. Eusebius (260-340 A.D.)

A. He was trained at Origen's school in Alexandria.

B. Eusebius was the editor of two Greek manuscripts (mss.) named Vaticanus and Sinaiticus. These two mss. were discredited and abandoned by early Christians as being corrupt. ("Which Bible?" p. 139,143).

These are Roman Catholic mss. and were not used by Protestant Christians until 1881. These two mss. are the basis for Roman Catholic Bibles and every major English translation of the Bible since 1901. These mss. were not the ones used for the King James Bible.

C. Eusebius was Roman Catholic in his doctrine (see his book, "Ecclesiastical History", Vols. 1-5).

D. He was commissioned by Emperor Constantine to make 50 copies of Scripture for the Roman church. Eusebius copied the Gnostic Scriptures and Vaticanus and Sinaiticus.

VI. Jerome (340-420 A.D.)
A. Like Eusebius, Jerome was Roman Catholic in doctrine.

B. Jerome translated the Greek mss. of Vaticanus and Sinaiticus into Latin (called Jerome's Latin Vulgate). This was the official Bible of the Roman Catholic Church.

C. The ms. Vaticanus was placed in the Vatican library, while the ms. Sinaiticus was abandoned in a Catholic monastery, and they were not used for the next 1,500 years.

VII. Tischendorf (1869)
A.\tHe was the first Protestant to find and use the mss. of Vaticanus and Sinaiticus.
B. Tischendorf was a liberal theologian.

VIII. Westcott and Hort (1881)

A. They used Vaticanus and Sinaiticus to produce a new Greek N.T.. This Greek N.T. is not the same as the one used for the KJB nor during the Reformation.

B. Their Greek N.T. was the basis for the Revised Version (RV) of 1881 and the basic Greek text for all modern translations such as the RSV, TEV, NASV, N.TV, etc.

C. The Greek text of Westcott and Hort (W & H) differs from the Greek text of the King James Bible (the Received Text) 5,788 times, or 10% of the text.

D. Since all modern translations are based on the work of W & H, it would do us well to know the theology of these two men.

WESTCOTT: "I wish I could see to what forgotten truth Mariolatry (Mary-worship) bears witness."

"No one now, I suppose, holds that the first three chapters of Genesis, for example, give a literal history I could never understand how anyone reading them with open eyes could think they did."

HORT: "Mary-worship and Jesus-worship have very much in common."

"Protestantism is only parenthetical and temporary."

"The pure Romish view (Catholic) seems to be nearer, and more likely to lead to the truth than the Evangelical."

"Evangelicals seem to me perverted rather than untrue."

These men did not hold to sound doctrine; instead they have turned, "...away their ears from the truth, and she be turned unto fables." —2 Tim. 4:4

NOTE: Where the KJB and the Catholic Bible (such as the New American Bible) differ, the NIV and the NASV agree with the Catholic Bible. The Bible says, "For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: —2 Corinthians 2:17a. The prophet Amos wrote, "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord." —Amos 8:11

God bless,

Walter


TaylorOtwell wrote:
Actually, Walter, the "tree" of the KJV is not pure. It's a state Bible that had alterior motives behind it, and many Puritans knew that. The Geneva Bible was the people's Bible and was translated by Christians fleeing from persecution, it had nothing to do with any government, nor did it need any governments "authorization".

With care in Christ,
Taylor


S
sermonindex

[url=http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/islam/2Geisler(5)-The-Bible-Has-It-Been-Translated-Correctly.htm]Norman Geisler on bible translation[/url]

When they translate the bible into another language, how do they do that? Basically isn't that the same debate...therefore their bible in their language is now corrupt...so where does it end?

J
JaySaved

To JaySaved: This is exactly the kind of response I would expect from a “scholar”, from one of the elite. In other words, you are saying that everyone who wants to really understand and know the Bible, must have a total understanding of Greek and Hebrew, as well as a little "Textural Criticism" thrown in to boot. This is a necessity, you say, because only “scholars” can understand and teach God’s Word. Only "scholars" know the real deal.

Walter, I am confused by your response. I am not saying that everyone who wants to really understand and know the Bible must know Greek and Hebrew. I am not saying that you must be a "scholar" to understand the Bible. My wife is not a scholar and my explanation made sense to her.

Simply put there are two options for Mark 1:2. Either Mark wrote:
1. In Isaiah the prophet or
2. In the prophets

Does it make more sense for a scribe to change "In the prophets" (which makes more sense because Malachi and Isaiah are quoted) to "In Isaiah the prophet" (being a more difficult reading)?

or

Does it make more sense for a scribe to change the (more difficult) "In Isaiah the prophet" to "In the prophets" thus make it more easy for the quotation.

But don't be afraid that by saying "In Isaiah the prophet" that somehow you are calling God a liar and His word untrustworthy. God's word is true and inerrant, without fault or blemish!

Blessings

H
hmmhmm

I prefer myself the bibles translated from TR
mainly because, if those manuscripts are not "pure" and nott trustworty, then it meens there was no Word of god that could be read and trusted in english until 1881 or whenever it was WH translated their version from the new manuscripts. And i dont think God would alow the church to be decived by a "faulty" text and that had been corrupted for about 1800 years. So that is one of many reason i prefer the TR, and the versions we have today is KJV and NKJV, in some cases i think kjv does a better job, in others nkjv does it better.

I dont like many of the newer versions since they are from the other manuscripts and many of them translate the greek in some very vital places wrong.

ALL english and other translations have their weaknesses since it is hard to translate greek exactly and get everything translated as closley to the original and still being able to understannd what is being read.

I for one has come to the conclusion the importance is not so much what version you read, but how much you obey of what you read, its better to read the living bible and obey it then being able to read the original greek and not obey it.

But if i was asked to recomend a direct translation that is the closest to the original in modern english it would be nkjv, and kjv for those who can understand it.

Its difficult to teach regenaration from any other bible just from reading the text, if using esv,nasb or some other you must explain things and comment upon the text, with kjv and nkjv you get it as it says in the greek. sadly the newer translations have put their own interpretation and own comments into the text and how they translated the greek.

But ill leave you on your own for studying this matter :-) i spent much time myself on it and my conclusion is TR is the preserved word of God and the two versions we have in english are the kjv and nkjv.

just obey the one you read no matter what version it is, this issue tend to divide much among belivers, and it is sad. one of my problems with many different transations has been when meeting muslims, even tho they have the samme thing with the quran, one muslim asked me :

"but since there are so many different bibles, and they say different things and different verses in all of them, which one is the word of God?"


its a good question....

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Actually, Walter, the "tree" of the KJV is not pure. It's a state Bible that had alterior motives behind it, and many Puritans knew that. The Geneva Bible was the people's Bible

Thank you for posting this brother (and thank you for your original post Walter). The Lord has really been convicting me to get away from the newer translations lately. I was wondering though, how my KJV only brethren treat the other older translations. I am no scholar, so please don't pounce on me if I am wrong, but I thought the Geneva, Wycliff, and Youngs Literal Translation all came from the same source text as the KJV. (IF there are more could someone clue me in).

Are these considered corrupt by KJV only people too?

-Jim

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Actually, Walter, the "tree" of the KJV is not pure. It's a state Bible that had alterior motives behind it, and many Puritans knew that. The Geneva Bible was the people's Bible

Would you care to elaborate what the "alterior motives" were? You cant just throw that out on the table without giving some proof. And please refrain from just making general statements... document your sources.

Krispy

H
hmmhmm

I think those versions you mention Jim is also from the TR and same as KJV, and brother taylor has a point in the state and some of the principles behind the kjv translation, one example is the phrase "the office of"

i think it is 40 something times in the kjv, and not one time either in hebrew or greek is that word there. It has to do with the political issues of those days i guess and that king James wanted to keep the peace and unity within his kingdom. So some things in kjv is not good, but i still prefer this version and it is an excellent word for word translation in english from TR.

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Everyone here does realize that King James had nothing to do with the actual translation, right? The only thing that King James did was authorize the translation of it, in other words he gave it the "crown copyright". The record, and the writings of the actual translators, shows that King James was basically "hands off" when it comes to the actual translators. He did not stack the deck, he did not influence the translators.

Some of the things being said on this thread about King James and his role in the translation is simply not true (otherwise known as lies... intentional or not) and is easily refutable by doing a little bit of studying and reading at your local library. A lot of times tho Christians dont study it themselves, they simply parrot what they've heard from others... who are parroting what they heard from others... who are parroting what they heard from others... etc etc.

Krispy

H
hmmhmm

herre is a shirt i would conncider buying for you krispy for your next birthday ;-)

[url=http://www.zazzle.com/real_men_use_a_king_james_version_bible_tshirt-235405396505132764]Real men use KJV[/url]

here are some of the "directions" that if i am not mistaken the king James ordered should be taken as "guidence" for the translators while translating the Kjv.

Fifteen general rules were advanced for the guidance of the translators:

1. The ordinary Bible read in the Church, commonly called the Bishops Bible, to be followed, and as little altered as the Truth of the original will permit.

2. The names of the Prophets, and the Holy Writers, with the other Names of the Text, to be retained, as nigh as may be, accordingly as they were vulgarly used.

3. The Old Ecclesiastical Words to be kept, viz. the Word Church not to be translated Congregation &c.

4. When a Word hath divers Significations, that to be kept which hath been most commonly used by the most of the Ancient Fathers, being agreeable to the Propriety of the Place, and the Analogy of the Faith.

5. The Division of the Chapters to be altered, either not at all, or as little as may be, if Necessity so require.

6. No Marginal Notes at all to be affixed, but only for the explanation of the Hebrew or Greek Words, which cannot without some circumlocution, so briefly and fitly be expressed in the Text.

7. Such Quotations of Places to be marginally set down as shall serve for the fit Reference of one Scripture to another.

8. Every particular Man of each Company, to take the same Chapter or Chapters, and having translated or amended them severally by himself, where he thinketh good, all to meet together, confer what they have done, and agree for their Parts what shall stand.

9. As any one Company hath dispatched any one Book in this Manner they shall send it to the rest, to be considered of seriously and judiciously, for His Majesty is very careful in this Point.

10. If any Company, upon the Review of the Book so sent, doubt or differ upon any Place, to send them Word thereof; note the Place, and withal send the Reasons, to which if they consent not, the Difference to be compounded at the general Meeting, which is to be of the chief Persons of each Company, at the end of the Work.

11. When any Place of special Obscurity is doubted of, Letters to be directed by Authority, to send to any Learned Man in the Land, for his Judgement of such a Place.

12. Letters to be sent from every Bishop to the rest of his Clergy, admonishing them of this Translation in hand; and to move and charge as many skilful in the Tongues; and having taken pains in that kind, to send his particular Observations to the Company, either at Westminster, Cambridge, or Oxford.

13. The Directors in each Company, to be the Deans of Westminster, and Chester for that Place; and the King's Professors in the Hebrew or Greek in either University.

14. These translations to be used when they agree better with the Text than the Bishops Bible: Tyndale's, Matthew's, Coverdale's, Whitchurch's, Geneva.

15. Besides the said Directors before mentioned, three or four of the most Ancient and Grave Divines, in either of the Universities, not employed in Translating, to be assigned by the vice-Chancellor, upon Conference with the rest of the Heads, to be Overseers of the Translations as well Hebrew as Greek, for the better observation of the 4th Rule above specified.

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Yes... exactly. When I refer to "influence" I mean KJ did not tell the translators "translate this to mean... etc." There are many false accusations of such influence when in fact there is no proof of such in any of the writings of the translators.

As for the guidelines of the translation you listed... there is much wisdom.

Krispy

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QUESTION: The Textus Receptus didn't appear until 1633 so how can the King James Bible, which was translated in 1611, be translated from it?

ANSWER: Wrong.

EXPLANATION: The Greek text which was used for the translation of the King James Bible extends back through history to the pens of Moses, David, Paul, John and the other inspired writers. Throughout history it has been known by a variety of names. Over the years the Greek text of the New Testament was collated by a number of different editors. The most famous of these being Desiderius Erasmus, Theodore Beza, Robert Stephanus and the Elzevir brothers, Abraham and Bonaventure.

Erasmus published five editions of the New Testament. The first in 1516 was followed by another in 1519 which was used by Martin Luther for his historic and earth shaking German translation. His third, fourth, and fifth followed in 1522, 1527 and 1535. Erasmus' work was magnificent and set the standard for centuries (sic) to come.

Robert Stephanus published four editions, dating from 1546 through 1549, 1550 and lastly 1551.

Theodore Beza published several editions of the Greek New Testament. Four were published in 1565, 1582, 1588 and 1598. These were printed in folio, meaning a sheet of paper was folded over once, thus producing four separate pages of the book. He also published five octavo editions, these dates being; 1565, 1567, 1580, 1590 and 1604. "Octavo" means that one printed sheet folded in such a way as to produce eight separate pages of the text. Books printed in this manner tended to have a smaller page size than folio works, but sometimes led to the need of a work being printed in two or more volumes.

[b]It is Beza's edition of 1598 and Stephanus edition of 1550 and 1551 which were used as the primary sources by the King James translators. [/b]

Some years later, the Elzevir brothers published three editions of the Greek New Testament. The dates being; 1624, 1633 and 1641. They followed closely the work of Beza, who in turn had followed the standard set by Erasmus. In the preface to their edition of 1633 they coined a phrase which was to become so popular as to be retrofitted to texts which preceded it by many years.[b] They stated in Latin "textum ergo babes, nunc ab omnibus receptum..." ei "According to the text now held from the volume received..." Thus the title "Textus Receptus" or "Received Text" was born.[/b]

So we see that, even though the name [b]"Textus Receptus" was coined twenty-two years after the Authorized Version was translated, it has become synonymous with the the true Greek Text originating in Antioch, passed down from the Believing Church. [/b]

Sincerely,

Walter



jimdied2sin wrote:
Actually, Walter, the "tree" of the KJV is not pure. It's a state Bible that had alterior motives behind it, and many Puritans knew that. The Geneva Bible was the people's Bible

Thank you for posting this brother (and thank you for your original post Walter). The Lord has really been convicting me to get away from the newer translations lately. I was wondering though, how my KJV only brethren treat the other older translations. I am no scholar, so please don't pounce on me if I am wrong, but I thought the Geneva, Wycliff, and Youngs Literal Translation all came from the same source text as the KJV. (IF there are more could someone clue me in).

Are these considered corrupt by KJV only people too?

-Jim

P
paulamicela

Another Bible versions debate... :-(

H
hmmhmm


paulamicela wrote:
Another Bible versions debate... :-(


Dear sister, there are two ways to do a discussion like this, the right way with humility and the approach to the discussion with the possibility and very likley fact we dont know everything and we may be wrong. Or the opposite....


There have been some very "ugly" debates about this, but also some very edifying and informative discussions also. So it is in our hands, it will be what we make it, how we approach it and how we respond to it.

I hope the discussion can bring some fruit in us that will produce a more Holy fear for god and his word, and bring a seriousness to study it and obedience to it.

so let us discuss with a right attitude towards our fellow saints, if we just want to prove our point and our perception as the best and highest we have already fallen. Let us share with love and humility what we know or believe and why we prefer with different versions.

the truth is, no english bible version is perfect, some have more defects then others, so we have pro and cons with all english bibles. When we realize this we will take another approach to the subject.

then we will have a thread that will bless many and our selves.

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We also have to keep in mind that our salvation is not based on what version we read. When we approach it from that angle, realizing that those we may disagree with are still our brothers and sisters... we can then approach this discussion with love, and not hostility.

But this is a very important topic that too many Christians today refuse to educate themselves about, preferring to stick their heads in the sand. When our heads are in the sand it makes for an easy target for the enemy kick our butts.

And also... if one finds this discussion too offensive for one's sensibilities... one can simply ignore it on this forum. No one here is forcing anyone else to read this. :-)

Krispy

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Dear Hmmhmm:

I used to believe what the publishers had to say---that the New King James relied upon the same historic text as the King James Version. However, after some serious study, I began to realize that the New King James Translators were very deceptive. One of the basic texts that I always check is Genesis 3:15. The King James says “The seed of the woman” and the New King James says “The seed of the woman”, so it should be O.K. we would think. However, in key places like this, throughout the Bible, the New King James is seemingly in sync with the King James. Have the Translators purposely tried to deceive us? The answer is yes.


Question: Is the New King James version basically the same as the King James Version? Does the New King James use the same text, passed down from Antiquity, that the King James Bible uses?

Isn’t the New King James Version essentially the same as the KING JAMES VERSION only without the "Thee's and Thou's?"

Answer: No, it is not. The Old Testament of the KING JAMES VERSION is translated from the Ben Chayyim Masoretic Text, which was edited by a born again Masorite Jew. Many Christians are surprised to find the texts underlying the NKJV are not the same texts the KJV is translated from...

Just as Hort and Westcott utterly rejected the Majority/Received Text (the N.T. of the KJV is translated from) for their Greek New Testament, and chose instead the deeply flawed Egyptian Minority texts, the translators of the New King James Version rejected the Ben Chayyim Masoretic text for the Old Testament and chose instead a Masoretic text that differs significantly from the text the King James Version was translated from.

[b]In addition to using corrupted texts in translating the Old Testament portion of the NKJV, the Egyptian Minority texts were consulted and used to some extent in the New testament portion. Although the translators attempted to retain the familiar rhyme and rhythm of the KING JAMES VERSION, and it does adhere in places to the Received Text *it does not entirely do so. That means the texts of both the Old and New Testaments of the New King James Version are corrupted.[/b]

That makes the NKJV just another counterfeit Bible, albeit a slightly better counterfeit than most *which makes it far more dangerous.
Just as tobacco and marijuana are known as *gateway drugs to the harder stuff, the New King James Version is a gateway as well by fostering acceptance of other corrupt Bible versions.

Question: Who are Hort and Westcott?

Answer: Professor Fenton John Anthony Hort and Bishop Brooke Foss Westcott were the [human] driving forces behind the Revised Standard Version.

These two Anglicans formulated the theory that the Received text (which the N.T. of KING JAMES VERSION is translated from) is full of errors and that the Egyptian Minority Texts (that they based their Greek New Testament on) were pure texts and completely error-free (an absolutely preposterous claim). Their theory is known as The Hort Westcott Theory and the Greek text they created (or one virtually identical to it) is used to train ministers in almost every English speaking Bible college in the world today.

Facts pertaining to both Hort and/or Westcott:
•\tInvolvement in the occult (séances etc.)
•\tProfessed disbelief in either the divine inspiration of scripture or the diety and physical resurrection of Jesus Christ.
•\tHated the idea of the blood atonement, hence preference for manuscripts which deleted references to both the blood and deity of Christ (see insidious footnotes, omissions and changes to Colossians 1:14 and 1 Timothy 3:16 in most Bibles).
Hort and Westcott were unsaved men. No one can be saved who denies either the Diety or the resurrection of Jesus Christ (see John 8:24, Romans 10:9-10,13).

Their scholarship and fitness for handling the Word of God was challenged by godly scholars of their day. And godly scholars today continue to stand against the heresy that has flooded the church as a result of the translations based on the Greek New Testament these two unregenerate men produced. In more recent years, many have attempted to distance themselves from the obviously flawed Hort Wescott Greek New Testament, but the United Bible Society's Nestle-Aland Greek text (used in its stead) is virtually identical to it.

[b]This means that almost every modern Version--including the New King James Version--is heavily influenced by the work of two men who demonstrated absolutely no fear of God during the course of their lifetimes. All versions resulting from their work and influence should be rejected.[/b]


[b]Question: Why should we trust the KING JAMES VERSION?[/b]

Answer: The King James Version is based on texts that can be traced to Apostolic times.
There are over 5000 extant copies of Majority/Received Text manuscripts, texts and versions available today that exhibit the agreement needed to be considered reliable. These texts come from all over the world and can be traced to many different time periods--including the time period of the the early church.

The Received Text is not riddled with errors. That claim is made only in connection with the Minority Texts which greatly contradict the Majority Texts in denying the blood atonement, deity, and virgin birth of Christ.

For more information on this subject, the book, MY BIBLE DOESN'T SAY THAT!, goes into great detail and is available online at www.Lulu.com/JocelynAndersen .

The E-book at www.Lulu.com/JocelynAndersen is available free for download.

If you would like a print copy but cannot afford one, call (863) 614-0439 to record your request along with your name and complete mailing address. We will send you a copy free of charge (limit one per household please).

http://www.sharecropperradio.com/
THE RADIO VOICE OF
http://www.hungryheartsministries.com/

Sincerely,

Walter


hmmhmm wrote:
I prefer myself the bibles translated from TR
mainly because, if those manuscripts are not "pure" and nott trustworty, then it meens there was no Word of god that could be read and trusted in english until 1881 or whenever it was WH translated their version from the new manuscripts. And i dont think God would alow the church to be decived by a "faulty" text and that had been corrupted for about 1800 years. So that is one of many reason i prefer the TR, and the versions we have today is KJV and NKJV, in some cases i think kjv does a better job, in others nkjv does it better.

Deleted.............


quote]

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Walter,

Forgive me if you have already answered this, but do you consider Youngs Literal Translation, Geneva, and Wycliff to be corrupt?

-Jim

H
hmmhmm

here is one reason i prefeer the KJV and the NKJV, mainly because the stick with the text in the original. And as we shall see the other versions, even those that claim to be exact word for word dont do this, and this is a very important thing. We see a very huge part of christianity teaching easy belivism and the doctrines of regenaration is very much lost in modern evangelical preaching. Can it be due to the very vast flood of modern versions of bibles translate some things differently then the original plainly says? i dont know, but it is my suspicion.


Romans 6:6 knowing this, that our old [b]man[/b] was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. (Rom 6:6 NKJ)

Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old [b]man[/b] is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. (Rom 6:6 KJV)

here we have the two translations from TR, the two most common today, the word in greek is:

a;nqrwpoj anthropos {anth'-ro-pos}
Meaning: 1) a human being, whether male or female 1a) generically, to include all human individuals 1b) to distinguish man from beings of a different race or order 1b1) of animals and plants 1b2) of from God and Christ 1b3) of the angels 1c) with the added notion of weakness, by which man is led into a mistake or prompted to sin 1d) with the adjunct notion of contempt or disdainful pity 1e) with reference to two fold nature of man, body and soul 1f) with reference to the two fold nature of man, the corrupt and the truly Christian man, conformed to the nature of God 1g) with reference to sex, a male 2) indefinitely, someone, a man, one 3) in the plural, people 4) joined with other words, merchantman

here are some other translations, from modern versions, it is the same word in the greek and in the other places the word occors in the NT it is translated man. Why then do other so called word for word translators translate this word this time into something else? i dont have the answer other then that they have made an interpretation that they themself se fit. and it iis very dangerous i think.

Romans 6:6 We know that our old [b]self[/b] was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. (Rom 6:6 ESV)

Romans 6:6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, that our body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin; (Rom 6:6 NASB)

Romans 6:6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin (Rom 6:6 NIV)

Romans 6:6 We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin. (Rom 6:6 NRSV)

Romans 6:6 We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the sinful body might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin. (Rom 6:6 RSV)

theree are some others that translate it to man, but not among the "large" and popular ones, to quote Ron Bailey, "I am not so sure a new self is much better then an old self"

This is a very important doctrine that you cant get from just reading the bible with many new translations. You have to have a commentator or a teacher tell you "really in the original it meens man"

this is just one thing, dont want to throw all these versions in the trash for this one verse since they have other strengths and are very good translations from their source on the whole. But we need consider this i think and carefully examine some things from what bible we read.

H
hmmhmm

Dear waltern, i have read much also against the nkjv and the translation and the texts they used, and i find not much worthy to be upset about in the prosess, its true you will get in the margin info on what the corrupt text say as you put it, and it is true that the manuscripts they used in kjv translation we dont have today, but on the whole i have no problem saying nkjv is a very good faithful translation from the greek in the majority text, i dont know much greek, but the very little i have learned i can say in some areas the nkjv is in fact better then the kjv.

And any honest greek schooler will say the same, not perhaps in everything but in some aspects in the translation.

Now that i have said that :-) i just want to say i prefer the KJV over all other translations, but i feel the criticism against nkjv sometimes are a bit "over reacted" so to say, i understand the concern and some of what people say, but again, i think it is not a big issue.

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To Jimdied2sin:

The [b]Geneva Bible[/b] relies on the same historic text as the King James, the Received Text, the Textus Receptus, and is not corrupt.

The [b]Wycliff Bible [/b]relies on the same text as the King James, the Received Text, the Textus Receptus, and is not corrupt. It is one of the oldest translations of the Bible into English. The translation was completed over a period of years between 1382-1395. Well known as a precursor to the Tyndale Bible and the King James Version, the Wycliffe Bible was very popular in its day.

The English state and the Roman Catholic Church took drastic steps to suppress the Wycliffe Bible, circulating pamphlets critical of the it and enacting some of the severest religious censorship laws. The translation itself can be difficult for modern readers because current spelling and grammatical conventions have changed drastically from those of Middle English.


[b]Youngs Literal Translation[/b] relies on the same historic text that the King James does, and is not corrupt. However I find it difficult to read and understand:

Young used the present tense in many places in which other translations use the past tense, particularly in narratives. For example, the YLT version of Genesis begins as follows:

1 In the beginning of God's preparing the heavens and the earth —
2 the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness [is] on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters,
3 and God saith, 'Let light be;' and light is.
4 And God seeth the light that [it is] good, and God separateth between the light and the darkness,
5 and God calleth to the light 'Day,' and to the darkness He hath called 'Night;' and there is an evening, and there is a morning — day one.
6 And God saith, 'Let an expanse be in the midst of the waters, and let it be separating between waters and waters.'
7 And God maketh the expanse, and it separateth between the waters which [are] under the expanse, and the waters which [are] above the expanse: and it is so.
8 And God calleth to the expanse 'Heavens;' and there is an evening, and there is a morning — day second.
9 And God saith, 'Let the waters under the heavens be collected unto one place, and let the dry land be seen:' and it is so.
10 And God calleth to the dry land `Earth,' and to the collection of the waters He hath called 'Seas;' and God seeth that [it is] good.
11 And God saith, 'Let the earth yield tender grass, herb sowing seed, fruit-tree (whose seed [is] in itself) making fruit after its kind, on the earth:' and it is so.
12 And the earth bringeth forth tender grass, herb sowing seed after its kind, and tree making fruit (whose seed [is] in itself) after its kind; and God seeth that [it is] good;
13 and there is an evening, and there is a morning — day third.[1]

Sincerely,

Walter


jimdied2sin wrote:
Walter,

Forgive me if you have already answered this, but do you consider Youngs Literal Translation, Geneva, and Wycliff to be corrupt?

-Jim

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Krispy...

Yes... exactly. When I refer to "influence" I mean KJ did not tell the translators "translate this to mean... etc." There are many false accusations of such influence when in fact there is no proof of such in any of the writings of the translators.

Actually, there is some proof of James' and the the official Church's instructions in this regard. It might take a little while, but I'll gather it when I can.

:-)

BTW...Walter...haven't we gone around this wilderness mountain over and over again? Perhaps we should simply use one of the many existing threads instead of creating yet another? I often feel the need to contradict the inconsistencies in your claims and accusations...but it gets tiring.

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To ccchhhrrriiisss:

It is interesting to me to see how one person's prejudice can effect men for many years. One of those men is Alexander McClue, and his Book "The Translators Revived, published in 1858.

I don't agree with all of Mr. McClure's historical commentary. In fact, I strongly disagree with his assessment of His Majesty King James VI. McClure makes him out to be worse than a heathen. [b]One way this bias manifests itself is in Mr. McClure's narrative about Dr. Richard Bancroft, one of the translators close to the King: [/b]

"...considering the control exercised by this towering prelate, and the fact that the great majority of the Translators were of his way of thinking, it is quite surprising that the work is not deeply tinged with their sentiments. On the whole, it is certainly very far from being a sectarian version, like nearly all which have since been attemped in English. It is said that Bancroft altered fourteen places, so as to make them speak in phrase to suit him...Two of those alleged alterations are quite preposterous. To have the glorious word "bishopric" occur at least once in the volume, the office is conferred, in the first chapter of Acts, on Judas Iscariot! 'His bishopric let another take.'"

[b]Here Mr. McClure shows his ignorance of earlier Bible versions,[/b] which I just happen to have a copy of. The scripture in question is Acts 1:20 where the King James translators selected the word, [b]"bishopricke". [/b] This translation was not unique to the King James Bible. In fact the word "bishopricke" was used in Wiclif's translation which was produced over 200 years before the King James Bible was ever thought about! Remember that the King James Bible came out in 1611. Look at the readings in these earlier translations--

Translation Year Reading
[b]WYCLIF 1380[/b] "and it is writun in the book of salmes, the abitacioun of hem be made desert: and be there noon that dwelle in it, and another take his [b]bischopriche,[/b]"
[b]TYNDALE 1534[/b] "It is written in the boke of Psalmes: His habitacion be voyde, and no man be dwellinge therin: and his [b]bisshoprychke[/b] let another take.
[b]CRANMER 1539[/b] "For it is wrytten in the boke of Psalmes: hys habitacyon be voyde, and no man be dwellinge therin: and his [b]Bisshoprycke [/b]let another take."
[b]KING JAMES 1611[/b] "For it is written in the booke of Psalmes, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: And his [b]Bishopricke[/b] let another take."
[b]GENEVA 1557 [/b]"For it is written in the boke of Psalmes, Let his habitation be voyde, and no man dwel therin: And let another take his charge."

[b]The only dissenting Bible in this group is the Geneva, a Puritan Bible.[/b] It was wrong for Mr. McClure to slander Dr. Bancroft for adding the word "bishoprick", when we can see that Dr. Bancroft did no such thing, and the staement was made for sectarian reasons. People have said for years that the King James translators mis-translated certain items to placate the King. As we see in the above example, this simply is not true.

Perhaps Mr. McClure's Puritanical bias has clouded his sense of objectivity (upon reading Translators Revived this Puritanical bias is easily seen). The Puritans and King James were not the closest of friends. In fact, Puritan Oliver Cromwell took over England after the regicide (means, killing of a king) of King James' son King Charles I.


The King James Bible translators were a collection of some of the world's best scholars. They approached this translation with the mindset that they were translating the very word of God, not just some book. The King James Bible has been called "the monument of English prose" as well as "the only great work of art ever created by a committee".

Take a look at that old King James on your shelf, and find out for yourself.

Sincerley,

Walter



ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Hi Krispy...
Yes... exactly. When I refer to "influence" I mean KJ did not tell the translators "translate this to mean... etc." There are many false accusations of such influence when in fact there is no proof of such in any of the writings of the translators.

Actually, there is some proof of James' and the the official Church's instructions in this regard. It might take a little while, but I'll gather it when I can.

:-)

BTW...Walter...haven't we gone around this wilderness mountain over and over again? Perhaps we should simply use one of the many existing threads instead of creating yet another? I often feel the need to contradict the inconsistencies in your claims and accusations...but it gets tiring.

H
HomeFree89

These two Anglicans formulated the theory that the Received text (which the N.T. of KING JAMES VERSION is translated from) is full of errors and that the Egyptian Minority Texts (that they based their Greek New Testament on) were pure texts and completely error-free (an absolutely preposterous claim). Their theory is known as The Hort Westcott Theory and the Greek text they created (or one virtually identical to it) is used to train ministers in almost every English speaking Bible college in the world today.

Let me get this straight, you say the TR is error-free, right? Then why is it "perposterous" that Wescott and Hort claimed the other text is error-free?



Facts pertaining to both Hort and/or Westcott:
• Involvement in the occult (séances etc.)

• Professed disbelief in either the divine inspiration of scripture or the diety and physical resurrection of Jesus Christ.

• Hated the idea of the blood atonement, hence preference for manuscripts which deleted references to both the blood and deity of Christ (see insidious footnotes, omissions and changes to Colossians 1:14 and 1 Timothy 3:16 in most Bibles).
Hort and Westcott were unsaved men. No one can be saved who denies either the Diety or the resurrection of Jesus Christ (see John 8:24, Romans 10:9-10,13).

Would you please back up these claims with proof? It is one thing to spout off a lot of "facts" about different people, but it is a totally different thing to be able to show these things to be true.

Please do a search on Wescott and Hort [url=http://www.kjvonly.org/]here[/url] and read how these claims about these men are refuted. I would be interested in hearing your thoughts about the articles.

M
Miccah

Brothers and sisters, this in unfruitful...

R
roaringlamb

The Wycliff Bible relies on the same text as the King James, the Received Text, the Textus Receptus, and is not corrupt.

Are you sure about this?

[b]The Wyclif translation came out in 1395, and the TR wasn't around until the early 1500's.[/b]

William Tyndale also had his NT published in 1526, and the Geneva Bible was first published in 1575.

It is interesting to note that Erasmus was a devout Roman Catholic(something overlooked by most KJ only types). Not that this has much to do with his translating skills, but I know people like to freak out about RC conspiracies when they talk about Bible translations.

S
sermonindex

To HomeFree89:

It is obvious that you have not read this entire thread. Please, take a deep breath, and go back to the beginning of this thread. Read all of them- from the 1st post to the last post, prior to your post below, and then please feel free to post again.

Thank you,

Walter


HomeFree89 wrote:

DELETED
Let me get this straight, you say the TR is error-free, right? Then why is it "perposterous" that Wescott and Hort claimed the other text is error-free?

Would you please back up these claims with proof? It is one thing to spout off a lot of "facts" about different people, but it is a totally different thing to be able to show these things to be true.

DELETED

S
sermonindex

To Roaringlamb:

It would be nice if you went back and looked at the prior posts, in regards to the questions that you ask.

This was posted previously:

The Greek text of the KJB is based on the majority of all Greek mss. and the line of Bible Believers throughout Church history.

A BRIEF HISTORY OF THE KING JAMES BIBLE AND ITS GREEK TEXT:

I. Believers at Antioch (1st. century)

A. The believers in Antioch were the first to be called "Christians" (Acts 11:26).

B. Since Antioch is in Syria, they translated the Bible into Old Syrian. This Bible agrees with the KJB and not the Catholic line of mss.

C. The believers at Antioch copied the Scriptures in both Syrian and Greek on papyrus (a paper-like material).

II. Believers in Greece (1st.-3rd. century)
A. They used the Greek text of Antioch and rejected the Greek text of Alexandria Egypt as corrupt. (Fuller, p. 194-215).

B. This is the church which departed from Rome and the Catholic church in the 4th century. History shows that the text of the KJB always goes away from the Roman Catholic Church. This being a historical fact, then why go back to Rome to make a new translation?

C. These believers copied Scripture on papyrus in both Greek and Old Latin (not Jerome's Latin Vulgate, but Old Latin). This Bible was translated in 150 A.D. and agrees in its text with the KJB, not the modern translations.

III. Believers in Northern Italy (3rd.-12th century)

A. They copied and used the Old Latin Bible and rejected the vulgate as corrupt.

B. These believers were called "Waldensens" and were known for the evangelism they did and the street preaching.

C. During the Inquisitions by the Catholic church, the Waldensens were the believers who were put to death (see "Foxe's Book of Martyr's")

IV. Believers in Early England and France (2nd.-17th. century)

A. They used the Old Latin Bible of the Waldensens as the official translation. They also copied the Greek text which later came to be called the Receptus.

B. These believers were very evangelistic and suffered much under Rome.

(1453) Moslems take Constantinople. Great exodus of Greek scholars from there to Western Europe, bringing with them Greek manuscripts of the Bible.

V. Erasmus (1466-1536 A.D.)
A. Erasmus compiled the Greek mss. of the believers in Greece, Italy, England, and France and the Old Syrian and Latin translations to produce the Greek N.T. the Reformers used.

B. Note, THIS WAS THE GREEK TEXT OF THE REFORMATION. THIS LINE ALWAYS GOES AWAY FROM ROME, AWAY FROM ERROR.

VI. Luther (16th. century)

A. Luther translated the Bible into German using the text of Erasmus. He rejected the Greek text of the Catholic church (the text modern translations use).

B. Luther was the father of the Reformation.

VII. The King James Bible (1611)

A. The N.T. was translated off the Greek text of the Reformation. The translators REJECTED Jerome's Vulgate and the Catholic Bible.

Sincerely,

Walter


roaringlamb wrote:
The Wycliff Bible relies on the same text as the King James, the Received Text, the Textus Receptus, and is not corrupt.

Are you sure about this?

[b]The Wyclif translation came out in 1395, and the TR wasn't around until the early 1500's.[/b]

DELETED

H
HomeFree89

Walter,

I honestly see no need to go back and read through the thread again. I have been reading it as it has progressed.

You made some negative assertions about the character of Wescott and Hort and all I'd like is some proof for those claims.

God bless!

R
roaringlamb

It would be nice if you went back and looked at the prior posts, in regards to the questions that you ask.

You still didn't answer how the TR could be the basis for the Wyclif Bible even though it was translated 300 years before the TR was around.

I really hope you aren't getting this stuff from Gail Riplinger and Jack Chick as both of them have been show to be a bit on the side of exaggeration and also leave out key quotes about men like Wescott and Hort.

It's funny how we can debate Bible translations and have threads stay active, but those on Scripture and Calvinism get locked.

How does a Bible translation argument further revival or our understanding of the God we serve?

R
roaringlamb

THIS LINE ALWAYS GOES AWAY FROM ROME, AWAY FROM ERROR.

Sorry but this is not true. Erasmus was a devout Roman Catholic and hated the Reformation and its proponents and Erasmus' first printing of the New Testament was indeed dedicated to the Pope.

Erasmus did not make his translation to break away from Rome, it was done as a favor to Rome. That is also why when none could defend Rome against the doctrines of the Reformers, Rome enlisted Erasmus to try to refute Luther with a book entitled "A Discussion Concerning Free-Will".

This was written in the hope that Luther could be silenced and shown to be a heretic so that the Reformation could be stopped. However Luther responded with what is today entitled "The Bondage of the Will"(which I highly commend).

Please go through History and don't just believe what some few KJV only people have posted. Study to show yourself approved.

S
sermonindex

[b][color=000000]To roaring lamb, HomeFree89, ccchhhrrriiisss & Miccah:[/color][/b]

Since the beginning of time, wolves have masqueraded as sheep in the Body of Christ. These wolves have no interest in God’s command for obedience to His Word, the Bible. Today, most Christian believers can find no difference between various Bible versions. In fact, the newer versions are seemingly preferred over the Protestant Standard, the [b]Protestant Bible,[/b] the King James Bible of 1611.

Instead of beating this subject to death, what does history have to say about the 1881 "Revised" Version of Westcott & Hort?

What was the response of the Protestant body of Christ to the work of Westcott and Hort and their revision committee in their "revised New Testament" in February, 1881? Was it accepted, or was it REJECTED AS FALSE?

Please see attached Letters to the Editor from the February 8, 1881 edition of the New York Times:

[url=http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=3&res=9D0CEEDA153BE033A25757C1A9649C94609FD7CF&oref=slogin&oref=slogin&oref=slogin]The New York Times, February 8, 1881[/url]

[b]It was REJECTED AS PLAGARISM!!!!![/b]

What was their response in 1881? Similar to the response by conservative Christians today. The conservative Protestant Church of 1881 REJECTED the "1881 revision" [color=CC3333][b](it was not a "revision", it was a replacement!)[/color][/b]. They rejected it as being a PLAGIARISM of the 1808 Belsham’s Unitarian Testament. It was rejected immediately by Conservative Protestant Christians, but welcomed by Liberal Protestant Christians. In the early 1900's, as time had passed it started to receive support from not only the Liberal body of Christ, but slowly over time, newer Pastors came onto the scene, men not knowlegable of the travesty that had occurred in 1881, men not knowledgable with God's Word, and ended up in support of the newer versions. Today, many people seem to actually prefer the newer versions than they do the Authorized Protestant Bible.

The story line in the 1881 New York Times reads as follows: "Certain striking coincidences discovered- a comparison with the Unitarian Version Published in London in 1808".

Thoughout this 1881 article they note all of the Scripture (Doctrine) that has been changed or eliminated in this 1881 Revision by Westcott & Hort in comparison to the Protestant Bible- the King James, just like Conservative Protestant Christians do today when comparing the King James Bible to all of the newer versions. In this article, they actually compared the changes in the 1881 revision to be identical (plagiarism) on a verse by verse basis with the liberal 1808 Belsham's Unitarian New Testament, concluding as follows:

"These striking coincidences of sense, and even of phraseololy, as well as the omissions and changes made in the text, would seem to indicate that the revisers must have had constantly in their view the Unitarian version of 1808, if they did not, indeed, make it the basis of their revision. It would hardly seem as if such coincidences could have been accidental. If the rest of the revised New Testament corresponds closely with the Unitarian version of 1808 as the examples given in the THE TIMES of Jan. 1881, the work will be a remarkable tribute to learning and skill of Mr. Belsham and his coadintors whose version was gotten up three-quarters of a century ago."

Belsham's Unitarian New Testament (1808) can be found here:

[url=http://www.bible-researcher.com/belsham.html]Belsham's Unitarian New Testament 1808[/url]

The 1808 Belsham Unitarian New Testament “[b]included a valuable introduction on the progress and PRINCIPLES OF TEXTURAL CRITICISM, ANTICIPATING MANY JUDGMENTS LATER ADOPTED IN THE REVISED VERSION OF 1881”[/b]; but drew the fire of the Orthodox by omitting as late interpolations several passages traditionally cited as pillars of Trinitarian doctrine (to Protestant Believers).

[b]What NONE of the Protestant critics knew in 1881, when they published their “discovery” (that the 1881 Revision by Westcott and Hort was a plagiarism of the 1808 Belsham Unitarian New Testament) was that Belsham[/b] (a Unitarian- look up the definition of Unitarian. I pass a Unitarian Church each day on my way to work that has signs attached to the building supporting gay marriage),[b][color=CC0000] as well as Westcott & Hort had switched the Authorized version of the New Testament with the corrupt Vaticanus and Sinaiticus texts that WAS USED to create the Catholic Bible.[/color][/b] [b] Even today, I don’t think people are aware of what really happened---the SUBSTITUTION of the very Word of God, passed down by the Believing Church with the corrupt text CREATED by Justin Martyr, Taitan, Clement of Alexandria, Origen, and Eusebius & Jerome to conform to their belief of Gnosticism![/b]

What is the fruit of Caholocism? What is the fruit of all the over 90 newer Bible Versions created since 1881. Today, the Protestant is crying out for Revival, but it is nowhere to be found. The Protestant Church is crying out for Brokenness, but it cannot be found. It is crying out for a “real” prayer life and a “real” personal walk with Jesus Christ, but again, it cannot be found!

Do these facts have interest to you? They have great interest to me, and they should be of great interest to any Child of God who wants a closer walk with Jesus Christ in these last days!

[b][color=990000]When we open our Bibles today, we are opening up one of the two" types" of Bibles. Even though today we have many Bible versions (over 90 and counting) to choose from, we still only have two "types" of Bibles. One of the Bibles has been passed down from the believing Christian Church, from the very beginning, and is the Protestant Bible, the Textus Receptus, the Majority Text, the King James Bible.[/color][/b]

[b][color=000033]The other Bible that could be in our hands today has been passed down from Gnostic's who revised God's Word to conform to their own beliefs- it is the Catholic Bible, that used the minority text, created by the Gnostics, the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus. [/color][/b]

In 1881 the Westcott & Hort used the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus to produce their new Greek New Testament. This Greek New Testament is not the same as the one used for the King James Bible during the Reformation. All of the newer Bible Versions since 1881 have relied on the Greek New Testament created by Westcott & Hort, relying on the faulty Vaticanius and Sinaiticus text.

[b]So, to clarify the issue, today, if you study the NIV, NASB, American Standard, or any of the other "newer" versions, you are actually studying Gnostic Doctrine, as found in the Catholic Bible and the Catholic Church.[/b]

[b][color=990000]"The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." [/color][/b]Psalm 12:6,7

Sincerely,

Walter


roaringlamb wrote:
It would be nice if you went back and looked at the prior posts, in regards to the questions that you ask.

You still didn't answer how the TR could be the basis for the Wyclif Bible even though it was translated 300 years before the TR was around.

I really hope you aren't getting this stuff from Gail Riplinger and Jack Chick as both of them have been show to be a bit on the side of exaggeration and also leave out key quotes about men like Wescott and Hort.

It's funny how we can debate Bible translations and have threads stay active, but those on Scripture and Calvinism get locked.

How does a Bible translation argument further revival or our understanding of the God we serve?

This discussion is archived and closed to new replies. Start a new discussion to carry the subject on.
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