Hebrews ch.6 verse 9, what do you think it means

9But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

Paul was saying that even though he was warning them very strongly against falling away, he was confident of their firm standing in the Lord.

God is able to keep His sheeps, warnings like these are just part of His design to keep us. If any one doubts, be encouraged that God will keep us to the end, "Phi 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

Although there is a natural possibility that saints may fall away, in reality as God had declared it, not one of His sheep will be lost.

"Joh 10:27-28. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

could it be that He is talking about, the one who tasted as the ones who never was saved? He tested or tasted,but spit it out. He rejected Christ and the Spirit. Never to return(we see this in verse 8 )but sit his doom.In verse 8 we see the one who did not reject the Spirits call and he bring forth fruit to God.

If you keep reading fron Hebrews 6:4-6 (scary part)on to verses 7-8 you will see it references and parallels JESUS' words in Matthew 7:16-19 about the cofessors of CHRIST who bear bad fruit being thrown into the fire. Compare those passages.

Then in Matthew 7:23 JESUS says, "I NEVER KNEW YOU" - in other words it is a reference to those who were not saved despite their profession ("Lord, Lord") of faith. now go back and keep reading the next verse, Hebrews 6:9- "we are confident of BETTER THINGS in your case-things that accompany SALVATION.

So it is clear that Hebrews 6:4-6 is a reference to false converts. Those who were ONCE (not are) enlightened, TASTED (not partaken of) the Heavenly gift, SHARED (by virtue of being in the fellowship of believers) in the Holy Spirit, TASTED the goodness of the Word and the powers of the coming age but not SAVED since if they were saved and then lost then CHRIST would have to be re-crucified in order to re-save them.

I have this nagging question though, if those were not true believers before then why this:

6"If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame".

a. do the unconverted fall away
b. had the unconverted already repented

Before someone think otherwise, I would like everyone to know that I firmly believe in the 'Doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints'.

They were enlighten, but were not truly converted. they tasted the heavenly gift of Chirst, but did not swalllow Him and have Him as their own. They were made partakers of the Holy Spirit; the Spirit of God was calling on their lives, but they did not yield to it fully. They tasted the good Word of God, the teaching of the gospel and was that it was good, but was not saved. They experienced the power of the gospel and put it on trail. To say; I will put this under consideration, I will see what I think about this. so as to test the gospel with their own proud arrogance. With full knomledge of the gospel they reject it and harden their hearts. In this concluding the opposite of the truth of Christ and being in ageement that he should be crucified. This is the falling away of the unconverted.

For a long time it was taught to me that verses 4-8 were refering to those who were saved and lost it. After some time I've come to reject that teaching. It is a fact that those of verses 4-6 cannot be brought back to repentance, it's a fact because that's what the text says. But those of verses 4-8 are not the same as those of verse 9. I can't give you the greek or any of that, but the distinction between the two groups are obvious and undenyable. Praise God that when it comes to the people of verse 9 better things are always said! :-)

i think it is simple, it means the apostle dident think the hebrew believers where in that category, that does not mean there is no one in that category.

I am amazed and i tremble that the apostle would use such language to these believers, these are the believers that:But recall the former days in which, after you were illuminated, you endured a great struggle with sufferings: partly while you were made a spectacle both by reproaches and tribulations, and partly while you became companions of those who were so treated; for you had compassion on me in my chains, and [b]joyfully accepted the plundering of your goods[/b], knowing that you have a better and an enduring possession for yourselves in heaven. (Heb 10:32-34 NKJ)

that the apostle would write some of the hard things in this letter, to saints that where persecuted and where not only taking it with joy, they also could live in rejoicing when everything they owned was robbed from them.

if such people need to hear the warnings in the letter to the hebrews, how much more i? that can get upset when misplacing a set of carkeys and "annoyed" and "frustrated", that is a long way from "joyfully accepting" someone plundering my goods, home ect....

and if these men and woman needed to hear there is a chance they can fall away if they dont "look to Jesus" i will take it serius and not explain it away.

We need to tremble at scripture and not make them easy our conciseness, making us think "i am ok" thats not as serious as it says, it does not mean that really.

All of scripture, the assurence verses, the Gods keeping us verses we take very serius and embrace with no problem, but the verses that makes us uncomfortable we wanna explain away somehow, so we can continue to slack on in our halfhearted way, let us take it serious not as in frightening of " if i dont do this or this i lose my salvation"

no that is the wrong way, the right is to be encouraged and by all the power and help from the holy spirit make our calling and election sure.

These are serious things, its eternal things, an eternity of regrets or wasted opportunities and eternal voes, or an eternity of "well done my faithful servant"

if these verses scare us or make us tremble, let them do so in a way that makes us seek the Lord, i ssee my need when reading these verses, and the kingdom of God is for the needy, one thing with eternal security is you dont need Jesus anymore, you are already home safe and just walking around here waiting for his return or your death.

When i see verses like this i go "oh Lord i need you in a way i can not even comprehend fully, if you leave me for one second i am such a man in hebrews"

All things are possible with God,,,, who are we to say otherwise?

let us take scripture as they are, not less not more, meditate upon them and tremble at them.

Eternity is at hand, how we look at scripture and tremble at them will effect all of eternity

God bless

First of all I think that in verse one where he says let us go onto perfection he is talking about the more excellent way.

1Cor 12:31 But desire earnestly the greater gifts. And moreover a most excellent way show I unto you.

In verse 7 Pauls is writing about a parable it's the parable of the weeds. And he spake to them many things in parables, saying, Behold, the sower went forth to sow and as he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the birds came and devoured them and others fell upon the rocky places, where they had not much earth: and straightway they sprang up, because they had no deepness of earth and when the sun was risen, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
And others fell upon the thorns; and the thorns grew up and choked them and others fell upon the good ground, and yielded fruit, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
He that hath ears, let him hear.

There is the parable of the weeds and here is what it means.

Matt 13:18 Hear then ye the parable of the sower.
When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the evil one , and snatcheth away that which hath been sown in his heart. This is he that was sown by the way side. And he that was sown upon the rocky places, this is he that heareth the word, and straightway with joy receiveth it; yet hath he not root in himself, but endureth for a while; and when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, straightway he stumbleth. And he that was sown among the thorns, this is he that heareth the word; and the care of the world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful. And he that was sown upon the good ground, this is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; who verily beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. Another parable set he before them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man that sowed good seed in his field but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares also among the wheat, and went away. But when the blade sprang up and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. And the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst thou not sow good seed in thy field? whence then hath it tares? And he said unto them, An enemy hath done this. And the servants say unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? A man that is an enemy But he saith, Nay; lest haply while ye gather up the tares, ye root up the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather up first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn.

Hope that helps you

I am also with the same line of thinking with 'hmmhmm'.

The thing is, we must take heed of those warnings very seriously. Truly, real Christians will persevere to the end, being kept by God, but it will be according to His design that we repent of our sins, put our faith in the Lord, and hold fast to the end.

Those who are careless, those who harden their hearts and continue to indulge in sin should think otherwise.

"He that hath ears let him hear"

Eph. 1:13,14 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

The above verses alone ought to end any controversy. But the enemies of the Gospel of Grace are yet with us.

Chapter 6 & 10 of Hebrews are just a couple of those wrested by the unlearned. But if read in context and if the Holy Spirit give understanding there is no confusion.

In chapter 10 we read "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.(vs.14-18)

Sacrifices are being discussed to a people(the Hebrews)familiar with sacrifice and offering.

The admonition of the learned John Wycliffe ought to be heeded here;

"It shall Greatly Helpe Ye to Understand Scripture, If Thou Mark Not only What is Spoken or Written, But of Whom, And to Whom, With what Words, At what Time, Where, To what Intent, With what Circumstances, Considering what Goeth Before and what Followeth." John Wycliffe (1324-1383)

Hebrews 10 explains the context of 6:4-6 as Christ the Foundation is being built upon throughout the epistle. The epistle was written to Messianic Jews who had received the gospel but were now being counseled by false teachers (called "Judiazers") not to stop practicing
their temple rituals. These Judiazers were trying to combine the practice of the Levitical system with the Gospel. To gentile believers in Galatia they were teaching the need to first submit to the rituals of Judaism before embracing Christianity, and to Jewish believers
they were teaching the need to stay in Judaism.

Again,we see here the contrast between those not grace-taught and us who are. The 'remnant of the election of grace'.

There are always and only two categories of men spoken of in the Scriptures. Children of God and children of the devil. Cains and Abels,Jacobs and Esaus,Peters and Judas',and so on.

Jesus clarified this when he told His disciples why He spoke in parables.

Mark 4:10-13 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them. And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?

If any would be interested in hearing a brief 6 minute answer to the question "Does Hebrews teach that Christians can lose their salvation?" you may go here:

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?sid=3209841246

unto the praise of His glory,

one of the remnant of the election of grace

i think it is very proudfull calling people that dont share the same view on a small doctrine "enemies of grace" , and wrenchers of scripture.

I can call all who hold the "doctrines of grace" wrenchers of scripture because they also must twist multitudes of scriptures to make them fit their box.

Its pride and what is disturbing is you set your convictions as the standard of what others should believe.

Myself read it as it says, when it says we are saved by grace it is so, when it says "beware" , "hold fast" , "take heed" , "make your election and calling sure"

i believe it is just that I must do.

instead of letting your doctrine interpret your bible for you, let Gods spirit show interpret the bible and hence it will crush your doctrines.

Dont forget the two sides in scripture you speak of are both religious, cain and abel both where equally believers, believed the same doctrines.

but it was what was in the heart that mattered.

and when you call people that dont share your conviction of what grace is or how God saves a man or hardens them. You call them enemies of God

that shows what is in your heart. It is sad we so often have our favorite subjects, our favorite verses, if someone else mention them we go off andwe need check ourself, why is it when someone speaks of a certain doctrine or a certain thing i go off?

is it because i am unbalanced? probably so...

but i bless God there are verses that speak of Gods grace, and i take them literary, i believe what God says and trust him, when the word says i can lose my salvation i believe so.

I am convinced one thing that makes us so shallow and immature in christ, even tho we have read the scriptures for years, read theology and books in the hundreds and know all doctrines inside out, but yet we are defeated by sin and yet we quarrel with brothers and are offensive when someone do not agree with us i am convinced is this.

But they mocked the messengers of God, despised His words, and scoffed at His prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against His people, till there was no remedy. (2Ch 36:16 NKJ)

and so it is still today with people and their petdoctrines, they refuse to listen to Gods messenger, if it is the letter to the hebrews or gospel of john or any other message from that book.

and so we stay immature, we are still the cause of strife and divisions, instead of building the body of christ with encouragement and love we tear down with angry words and attitudes. careless and ignorant of what they/we produce.

what spirit is behind it?

i am not just talking to those who embrace the doctrines of grace, i know many of them are far more godly then me and know Jesus more intimate then me, no but some among that group, and some among the other side, and some of them in between and beside them. Let se to it what ever we belive and share, we do it with the same spirit as Paul and Jesus did.

Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we do not lose heart. But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor handling the word of God deceitfully, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. (2Co 4:1-2 NKJ)

let us not deal with the word of God with craftiness, trying to preach what we believe bending and being selective of what scripture are more valid then others, what verses mean what they say and what verses that do not mean what they say. Tremble at Gods word.

and paul says we have this ministry....

what ministry? making others belive in the doctrines of grace or doctrines of that or that?

no, no,no!

But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2Co 3:18 NKJ)

Pauls ministry was being transformed from glory to glory, and working out that would take effect in others also.

becoming more like Jesus, this is the thing we should focus on, brother i dont care if you are a calvinist or a preferred to be called believer of grace, i care if you are being transformed more and more into the image of Christ? are you becoming sweeter and sweeter to be around? your speech as graceful as your doctrines? your sins fewer and fewer? this is what matters, not if someone believes in eternal security or not.

and please stop calling people who dont hold your doctrines enemies of grace, or in other words enemies of God.

here is a man who embraced the doctrines of grace, but also he dealt honestly with scripture, even those who seemingly contradict what some who hold the doctrines of grace believe. That is why men like Ryle, Whitfield, Edwards where so anointed and still are today, and why ours is not, they trembled and treated the word of God with a Holy fear and reverence, we "cut and paste" so it fit our doctrine. And hence we have not power with the word of God when we speak it.

[i]The truth which our Lord brings out in this place is very painful, but very useful and needful to be known. No man, be it remembered, is in so dangerous a state as he who has once known the truth and professed to love it, and has afterwards fallen away from his profession, and gone back to the world. You can tell such a man nothing that he does not know. You can show him no doctrine that he has not heard. He has not sinned in ignorance like many. He has gone away from Christ with his eyes open. He has sinned against a known, and not an unknown God. His case is well near desperate. All things are possible with God. Yet it is written, "It is impossible for those who were once enlightened--if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance." (Heb. 6:4-6.)

Let us ponder these things well. The subject is one which is not sufficiently considered. Let us never be afraid of beginning to serve Christ. But let us begin seriously, thoughtfully, and with a due consideration of the step we take. And having once begun, let us pray for grace that we may persevere, and never fall away.[/i]

J.C Ryle

Very interesting. (You asking what these scriptures mean, bible4life.) Lately I see how there are tares among us and I came upon this sermon series by Jeff Noblit called "The Pretenders". Jeff Noblit is the pastor where Paul Washer attends.

Anyhow, I listened to the messages in this link, and especially here's what came from listening. The scriptures he pointed us to are the same scriptures that many of us are using to pray for revival. My own personal question has become: Are we praying for revival of sheep or goats? (Hope that doesn't sound bad, but we do want to pray according to God's will.)

Anyhow, on this page below, look for the Pretenders messages (3 total), if you are interested in this series. It may be on Sermon Index, I just haven't actually searched.

[url=http://www.anchoredintruth.org/resources/sermons/hebrews]The Pretenders Series (Scroll down)[/url]

Isn't it time for people to stop ignoring plain scriptural meanings?

Some scriptures are very difficult to understand but some are not.

Heb6 vs4-6 is a clear statement that salvation can be lost by determined action. The scriptures that state clearly that no one can pluck the saved form the Father's hand do not preclude a saved person plucking himself or herself out of the Father's hand.

If this were not so, then sin as much and as often as you like because ultimately the worst you will suffer is loss of heavenly reward but no loss of salvation. Does anyone seriously think that is correct?

The above comments will probably produce volumes of exegesis undertaking major feats of mental contortions to try to evade the plain meaning of the relevant scriptures.

I'm not saying that you can easily lose salvation - certainly not. However, a wilfull, determined and sustained course of action against righteousness on the part of a truly born again Christian can ultimately result in lost salvation. If you avoid mental gymnastics its the only possible meaning for the verses.

Its not about the 5 points of Calvinism or Arminianism but what the Word actually says.

This is talking about rejection of the gospel by the unconverted with full konwledge of the gospel. This is the apostasy it speaks of here. this is not talking about a true christian. If this verse was to say that one could lose his salvation, then by this you could never get it back. We keep his commandments because we love Him not out of fear that we will lose our salvation. ( John 14:15 ). We as chirstians have a hate for sin. when we do sin we must repent. This is done out of a love for God.

Mat 16:12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Mat 23:24 Blind guides, straining out the gnat, but swallowing the camel!

We are to be-ware of any false doctrine and the purveyors thereof. Doctrine is no small issue as seen in the above verses.

Especially a doctrine such as the one being discussed on this thread which has to do with no less than the eternal salvation of a soul.

It has to do with the very Gospel of God and the precious blood of the Son of God.

Be-ware when the doctrine of Christ,the very Truth of God in His Holy Word is belittled, as it has been here in a previous post in these words, "a small doctrine".

What a low view of God and the doctrine of Christ a mind must posess if they do not see the devilish nature of those words.

Furthermore, more erroneous dribble spills out to increase the confusion evident in the understanding of the mind behind the words when this is added,"cain and abel both where equally believers".

God's Word says otherwise,

Heb. 11:4 By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained testimony that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

1 John 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And why did he slay him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

Matt 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one.

Jeremiah the prophet speaks God's Word to us when he writes of cutting an everlasting covenant,

Jer. 32:40 And I will cut an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do good to them. But I will put My fear in their heart, that they shall not depart from Me.

Not only are we given the promise of God not turning away from us, but His Grace keeps us in Christ "that they shall not depart from Me".

There is no power but of God. There is no power able to withstand the power of God by which we are kept.

1 Pet. 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again to a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith to salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Notice our inheritance(grace bestowed)is incorruptible and fades not away.

As for the quote from Ryle it is evident that he considered it unthinkable for one of Christ's flock to finally perish.

"There are two points in religion on which the teaching of the Bible is very plain and distinct. One of these points is the fearful danger of the ungodly; the other is the perfect safety of the righteous. One is the happiness of those who are converted; the other is the misery of those who are unconverted. One is the blessedness of being in the way to heaven; the other is the wretchedness of being in the way to hell.

I hold it to be of the utmost importance that these two points should be constantly impressed on the minds of professing Christians. I believe that the exceeding privileges of the children of God, and the deadly peril of the children of the world, should be continually set forth in the clearest colors before the Church of Christ. I believe that the difference between the man in Christ, and the man not in Christ, can never be stated too strongly and too fully. Reserve on this subject is a positive injury to the souls of men. Wherever such reserve is practiced, the careless will not be aroused, believers will not be established, and the cause of God will receive damage." (from Never Perish by J.C. Ryle)

It may be read in full here:

http://www.biblebb.com/files/ryle/never_perish.htm

Note these words in Ryle's quote by the one who posted it, "...professed to love it, and has afterwards fallen away from his profession...".

As I said above,Ryle considered it unthinkable for Christ to lose one which His Father had given Him and His precious blood shed for.

Why would Ryle or any who loves Christ and His Salvation deny Christ's own words,

John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest to me I have kept, and none of them is lost but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
John 18:9 That the saying might be fulfilled which he spoke, Of them whom thou gavest to me, I have lost none. John 6:39 And this is the Father's will who hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me, I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Finally, in response to your plea, "please stop calling people who dont hold your doctrines enemies of grace, or in other words enemies of God."

No lie is of the Truth. Repent of believing lies!

1 John 2:21 I have not written to you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth. 1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received from him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man should teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you concerning all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

I am in agreement with what Spurgeon has to say,and I think it'd be safe to say that Edwards,Ryle and Whitefield would aslo,when he says,

"Some things are true and some things are false. I regard that as an axiom; but there are many persons who evidently do not believe it. The current principle of the present age seems to be, "Some things are either true or false, according to the point of view from which you look at them. Black is white, and white is black according to circumstances; and it does not particularly matter which you call it. Truth of course is true, but it would be rude to say that the opposite is a lie; we must not be bigoted, but remember the motto, 'So many men, so many minds.'" Our forefathers were particular about maintaining landmarks; they had strong notions about fixed points of revealed doctrine, and were very tenacious of what they believed to be scriptural; their fields were protected by hedges and ditches, but their sons have grubbed up the hedges, filled up the ditches, laid all level, and played at leap-frog with the boundary stones. The school of modern thought laughs at the ridiculous positiveness of Reformers and Puritans; it is advancing in glorious liberality, and before long will publish a grand alliance between heaven and hell, or, rather, an amalgamation of the two establishments upon terms of mutual concession, allowing falsehood and truth to lie side by side, like the lion with the lamb. Still, for all that, my firm old-fashioned belief is that some doctrines are true, and that statements which are diametrically opposite to them are not true,—that when "No" is the fact, "Yes" is out of court, and that when "Yes" can be justified, "No" must be abandoned."

He continues,

"We have a faith to preach, my brethren, and we are sent forth with a message from God. We are not left to fabricate the message as we go along. We are not sent forth by our Master with this kind of general commission—" As you shall think in your heart and invent in your head as you march on, so preach. Keep abreast of the times. Whatever the people want to hear, tell them that, and they shall be saved." Verily, we read not so. There is something definite in the Bible. It is not quite a lump of wax to be shaped at our will, or a roll of cloth to be cut according to the prevailing fashion. Your great thinkers evidently look upon the Scriptures as a box of letters for them to play with, and make what they like of, or a wizard's bottle, out of which they may pour anything they choose from atheism up to spiritualism. I am too old-fashioned to fall down and worship this theory. There is something told me in the Bible—told me for certain— not put before me with a "but" and a "perhaps," and an "if," and a "maybe," and fifty thousand suspicions behind it, so that really the long and the short of it is, that it may not be so at all; but revealed to me as infallible fact, which must be believed, the opposite of which is deadly error, and comes from the father of lies.
Believing, therefore, that there is such a thing as truth, and such a thing as falsehood, that there are truths in the Bible, and that the gospel consists in something definite which is to be believed by men, it becomes us to be decided as to what we teach, and to teach it in a decided manner. We have to deal with men who will be either lost or saved, and they certainly will not be saved by erroneous doctrine. We have to deal with God, whose servants we are, and he will not be honored by our delivering falsehoods; neither will he give us a reward, and say," Well done, good and faithful servant, thou hast mangled the gospel as judiciously as any man that ever lived before thee." We stand in a very solemn position, and ours should be the spirit of old Micaiah, who said, "As the, Lord my God liveth, before whom I stand, whatsoever the Lord saith unto me that will I speak." Neither less nor more than God's word are we called to state, but that we are bound to declare in a spirit which lets the sons of men know that, whatever they may think of it, we believe God, and are not to be shaken in our confidence in him."

Amen

since you are on the train you are on, steaming forward not even considering what has been said or scripture, all of scripture that is. i just want to say to you the gospel is much larger then calvinism.

since calvinism is a mann made theological system and the gospel is God....

the difference between calvinism and the gospel is as much difference as between man and God, or any other man made theology.

i hear what you say about truth and the real gospel ect, and yes that is true, but you are not defendiing the gospel, you are defending your own conviction, scriptures say otherwise.

there are hundreds of scriptures that speak against calvinism as the only gospel.

hundreds, and Jeremiah said also things that is not according to your system.

Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

he said that also...

and the reason i respect Ryle is he is honest with scripture, what he said in your quote is true, he dealt honestly with that scripture, but i have read his exposition of scripture and he believed a man could once be saved and end up in hell. He believed in thee possibility, and that is why his words are so anointed still today because he honored God and his word and treated it with a holy fear, when coming upon a assurance passage he dealt truly with it, when he came to a terrifying place in scripture he deal honest with it and did not try explain away it and by that "secure" his theological system.

thats is where you differ from ryle, but i to am unbalanced for sure in some areas, and i need to be teachable and recon i dont know everything.

so i am thankful for the book God gave us, and his spirit that can show me all things.

Grace to you and peace, may God show you all his truth.

and i end with another quote from ryles comments upon scripture.

[i]Men seem to forget that there is such a thing as an unpardonable sin, - and that if salt has once lost its savor, it cannot be seasoned again.

I should not like to be mistaken in saying this, i cannot find in scripture any clear proof that there is any decreed reprobation. I hold that the destruction of those who are lost is the consequence of their own sins, and not of Gods predestination. I believe we have no right to say of any sinner, that he is too bad to be saved.
[/i]

also, you have in your post called many men of God liars and false teachers, such as Wesley, Tozer, Ravenhill, the early church fathers ect....

the anabaptists and many more, since they did not share your view on this doctrine, and again i say it is a small one, you know why it is a small pitty doctrine? no matter if i believe your version, or mine, none of those belief in the doctrine will make a man holy, make him like jesus. So it is a very small matter, important yes, but of the most importance?

no, i want to become what i was predestined to by God, become like Jesus, this is eternal security, this is election, to be more and more day by day being transformed into his likeness, this is the gospel, this is what paul preached, this was pauls ministry.

whetre one can lose his salvation i am certain Paul though people could, otherwise he would not had to write one single word or letter to anyone, since they where in no danger anyway...

why write a letter that can change nothing?

ponder that my friend, and its good when we come to scripture to forget all we have learned from the tree of knowledge, and just let Gods word teach us as children as it was the first time we read it.

someone said it and it has blessed me much doing so.

God bless

Let's briefly look at Hebrews 6 vs 4 and 5 in a little more detail and then consider what Verse 9 is saying.

vs 4: 'once enlightened' are the unsaved enlightened? It doesn't say partially enlightened or had a glimpse of enlightenment does it?

vs 4: 'have tasted the heavenly gift' do the unsaved taste the heavenly gift?

vs 4: 'have become partakers of the Holy Spirit' do the unsaved become partakers of the Holy Spirit? Partakers?

vs 5: 'and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come' do the unsaved taste the good word of God AND the powers of the age to come?

Verse 9 is Paul saying that he has no doubt that those he is addressing have not lost their salvation but that it was time to move on (read this in the context of the need to progress from baby food into maturity).

The problem with calvinism is that it is all tied up in TULIP and TULIP is flatly contradicted in the Bible. I'm not arguing for Arminianism by saying this just that TULIP can't stand in light of clear scripture.

The 'L' for limited atonement and 'P' for perseverence of the saints are inextricably linked. If the 'L' falls so does the 'P' and vica versa since Calvinism teaches that Jesus only died for the elect and the elect cannot be lost - but that is not actually what scripture teaches.

There are a number scripture that clearly indicate that the saved can lose their salvation and if that is so then the whole notion of Limited Atonement as propounded by Calvinism cannot stand either which in turn brings down TULIP.

For example to pick on three sets of scripture, we could begin with Hebrews 6 verses 4 through 8 which is the meat of the original post generating these threads. Then there is the whole of 2 Peter 2 and then read Matthew 18 23 - 35.

In light of the quoted scriptures how can anyone argue that its not possible to lose one's salvation. As I said in earlier posts I don't believe for one minute that one can easily lose one's salvation but that its possible and that some have is beyond honest argument surely.

Its not about Calvinism or Arminianism but what the Word actually says. We need to be honest in this.

well bile4life, i do agree on that some things in calvinism are to be found in scripture, i have nothing against election, predestination or any other thing that is to be found in scripture, since we have been asked not to discuss cal vs arm here i will leave the thread with this post.

as you are saying yourself, israel was gods chosen people, can he not chose whom he will?

you and i answer both yes, then i ask you

how many of Gods chosen elected people entered the promised land?

you find that answer and you find the answer to if a christian can lose his salvation or not, you will find the answer to eternal security i belive.

God is the same yesterday today and forever.

now i can fellowship with a beliver in eternal security without a problem, and a calvinist to ;-)

but my great burden and grief is so many are blinded by theological systems, you say election is very biblical, yes it is... but so is it to say God loves all men and want all men to come to repentance. That is Gods will that all men will be saved. So we see that sj cripture is larger then man made calvinism, and yes some aspects of calvinism is to be found in scripture, but so is arminianism.
and that is why i respect men like J C Ryle, he could speak about eternal security and write tracts aout it, ut in his comments upon scripture he can speak a fearful word according to scripture without twisting or wrenching or manipulating to make it fit his theological system. he was an honest and humble man.

and any one of us that are truly humble will say we dont know all things, i dont at least.

what bugs me with calvinism is that the passages that speak for their belifs are to be very litteral interpreted, as let say some verses speak about predestination, but verses that have the word all in them are not to be taken litterary.

i think all scripture is true, and if we belong teachable i think in the end we will end up neither a calvinist nor an arminian, but a christian.

and our only point will e Jesus Christ himself.

God bless you

Hi everyone,

Please forgive my unlearned and very small interjection into this thread. But I wanted to share something that seems very incredible to me:

It is, that some both in history and at present, who would deny that God does continue to inspire and speak, would spend so many [b]of their own hours and words[/b] trying to explain what He, through inspiration, has said.

And this, they hang upon the necks of men as orthodoxy.

Utterly incredible.

In my unlearned opinon.

Evolutionists are to my mind a strange bunch. So totally convinced are they that their scientific theory is backed by abundant strong evidence that they interpret at outset everything through a mental filter of accepting the theory of evolution as a proven fact. That's the starting point and everything must fit into that fact even if there are things that seem to contradict the scientific theory.

When clear, persuasive, easy to understand and contrary to their beliefs things are pointed out to them that doesn't cause them to step back and look again at the theory. Not at all, instead they look at ways to get around what would otherwise be regarded as strong evidence that the scientific theory is unsound. They postulate this possible alternative explanation or that possible alternative explanation or maybe it's another. What they know is it couldn't possibly be something that shows evolution to be untenable even if it looks as if it does - there just has to be another explanation that validates the scientific theory. Just look at how much evidence we have that says it is valid they say and we are so totally convinced its right that it must be so and besides they have accepted this belief for decades and so many great scientists could not have got it so wrong over the years could they? Darwin was after all a genius.

J.C. Ryle is at home now.

But while he was among the living upon this earth he left us his writings by his own hand expressing and communicating those biblical truths he so loved.

One such truth was final perseverance.

I think we'd all agree that no mere man is the final authority upon truth.

And so, my purpose here is not to say that final perseverance is true because J.C. Ryle or any other man believes it and says it's true.

I will quote J.C. Ryle below because hmmhmm continues to distort Ryle's views.

hmmhmm says, "the reason i respect Ryle is he is honest with scripture...i have read his exposition of scripture and he believed a man could once be saved and end up in hell. He believed in the possibility...".

Let us let Ryle speak for himself.

The following excerpts are from his tract entitled, "Never Perish".

"I now proceed to show the Scriptural grounds on which the doctrine of perseverance is built."

I need hardly say that the Bible is the only test by which the truth of every religious doctrine can be tried.The words of the sixth Article of the Church of England deserve to be written in letters of gold: "Whatsoever is not read in the Holy Scripture, nor may be proved thereby, is not to be required of any man that it should be believed as an article of the faith." By that rule I am content to abide. I ask no man to believe the final perseverance of the saints, unless the doctrine can be proved of the Word of God. One plain verse of Scripture, to my mind, outweighs the most logical conclusions to which human reason can attain...I find proofs in abundance in the New Testament, and to them I shall confine myself.

I shall write down the texts which appear to me to prove final perseverance, without note or comment. I will only ask you to observe as you read them, how deep and broad is the foundation on which the doctrine rests. Observe that it is not for any strength or goodness of their own that the saints shall continue to the end and never fall away. They are in themselves weak, and frail, and liable to fall like others. Their safety is based on the promise of God, which was never yet broken,—on the election of God, which cannot be in vain,—on the power of the great Mediator Christ Jesus, which is Almighty,—on the inward work of the Holy Ghost, which cannot be overthrown. I ask you to read the following texts carefully, and see whether it is not so.

"I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

"My Father, which gave them Me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." (John x. 28, 29.)

"Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

"As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

"Nay in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him that loved us.

"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

"Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Rom. viii. 35-39.)

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." (1 John ii. 19.)

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on Him that sent Me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." (John v. 24.)

"I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever." (John vi. 51.)

"Because I live, ye shall live also." (John xiv. 19.)

"Whosoever liveth and believeth in Me, shall never die." (John xi. 26.)

"By one offering He hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified." (Heb. x. 14.)

"He that doeth the will of God abideth for ever." (1 John ii. 17.)

"Sin shall not have dominion over you." (Rom. vi. 14.)

"The very hairs of your head are all numbered." (Rom. vi. 14.)

"A bruised reed shall He not break, and smoking flax shall He not quench." (Matt. xii.20.)

"Who shall also confirm you to the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Cor. i. 8.)

"Kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation, ready to be revealed in the last time." (1 Peter i. 5.)

"Preserved in Jesus Christ, and called." (Jude 1.)

"The Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto His heavenly kingdom ." (2 Tim. iv. 18.)

"I pray God your whole spirit, and soul, and body, be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

"Faithful is He that calleth you, who also will do it." (1 Thess. v. 23,24.)

"The Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil." (2 Thess. iii.3.)

"God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Cor.x. 13.)

"God willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of His counsel, confirmed it by an oath;

"That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us." (Heb.vi.17,18.)

"Fear not little flock; for it is your father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom." (Luke xii. 32.)

"This is the Father's will which hath sent Me, that of all which He hath given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day." (John vi. 39.)

"The foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, the Lord Knoweth them that are His." (2 Tim. ii. 19)

"Whom He did predestinate, them that He also called; and whom He called, them He also justified; and whom He justified, them He also glorified." (Rom. viii. 30.)

"God hath not appointed us unto wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thess.v. 9.)

"God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit, and belief of the truth." (2 Thess. ii. 13.)

"The vessels of mercy, which He had afore prepared unto glory." (Rom. ix. 23.)

"The gifts and calling of God are without repentance." (Rom. 11. 29.)

"If it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." (Matt. xxiv. 24.)

"He is able to save to the uttermost all them that come unto God by Him, seeing He ever liveth to make intercession for them." (Heb. vii. 25.)

"Able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy." (Jude 24.)

"I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day." (2 Tim. i.12.)

"I have prayed for thee, That thy faith fail not." (Luke xxii. 32.)

"Holy Father, keep through Thine own name those whom Thou hast given Me." (John xvii. 11.)

"I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil." (John xvii. 15.)

"I will that day they also whom thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am." (John xvii. 24.)

"If, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son; much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life." (Rom. v.10.)

"The Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth Him not, neither knoweth Him; but ye know Him, for He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you." (John xiv. 17.)

"Being confident of this very thing, that He which begun a good work in you, will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ." (Phil. i. 6.)

"The anointing which ye have received of Him abideth in you; and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in Him." (John ii. 27.)

"The Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption." (Ephes. iv. 30.)

"Ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance, until the redemption of the purchased possession." (Ephes. i. 13, 14.)

"Born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible." (1 Peter i. 23.)

"He hath said, I will never leave thee nor forsake thee." (Heb. xiii. 5.)

Reader, I lay before you these forty-four texts of Scripture, and ask your serious attention to them. I repeat that I will make no comment on them. I had rather leave them to the honest common sense of all who read the Bible. Some of these texts, no doubt, bring out the doctrine of final perseverance more clearly than others. About the interpretation of some of them, men's judgments may differ widely. But there are not a few of the forty-four which appear to my mind so plain, that were I to invent words to conform my views, I should despair of inventing any that would convey my meaning so unmistakably.

I am far from saying that these texts are all the Scriptural evidence that might be brought forward. I am satisfied that the doctrine maintained in this tract might be confirmed by other arguments of great might and power.

I might point to the attributes of God's character revealed in the Bible, and show how His wisdom, unchangeableness, and power, and love, and glory are all involved in the perseverance of the saints. If the elect may finally perish, what becomes of God's counsel about them in eternity, and His doings for them in time?

I might point to all the offices which the Lord Jesus fills, and show what discredit is thrown on His discharge of them, if any of His believing people can finally be lost.

What kind of Head would He be, if any of the members of His mystical body could be torn from Him? What kind of Shepherd would He be, if a single sheep of His flock was left behind in the wilderness? what kind of Physician would He be, if any patient under His hand were at length incurable? What kind of High Priest would He be, if any name once written on His heart were found wanting when He makes up His jewels? What kind of Husband would He be, if He and any soul once united to Him by faith were ever put asunder?

Finally, I might point to the great fact that there is not a single example in all Scripture of any one of God's elect ever finally making shipwreck and going to hell. We read false prophets and hypocrites. We read of fruitless branches, stony ground, and thorny ground hearers, virgins without oil in their vessels, servants who bury their talents. We read of Balaam, and Lot's wife, and Saul, and Judas Iscariot, and Ananias and Sapphira, and Demas. We see their hollow characters. We are told of their end. They have no root. They are rotten at the heart. They endure for a while. They go at last to their own place. But there is not a single instance in the whole Bible of any one falling away who ever showed unquestionable evidences of grace. Men like Abraham, and Moses, and David, and Peter, and Paul always hold on their way. They may slip. They may fall for a season. But they never entirely depart from God. They never perish. Surely if the saints of God can be cast away, it is a curious and striking fact that the Bible should not have given us one single plain example of it.

But time and space would fail me if I were to enter into the field which I have just pointed out. I think it better to rest my case on the text which I have already given. The mind to which these texts carry no conviction, is not likely to be influenced by other arguments. To myself they appear, when taken altogether, to contain such an immense mass of evidence, that I dare not, as a Christian man, deny to be true. I dare not, because I feel at this rate I might dispute the truth of any doctrine in the Gospel. I feel that if I could explain away such plain texts as some of those I have quoted, I could explain away almost all the leading truths of Christianity.

Reader, I am quite aware that there are some texts and passages of Scripture which appear at first sight to teach a contrary doctrine to that which I maintain in this tract. I know that many attach great weight to these texts, and consider them to prove that the saints of God may perish and fall away. I can also say that I have examined these texts with attention, but have found in them no reason to alter my opinion on the subject of perseverance.Their number is small. Their meaning is unquestionably more open to dispute than that of many of the forty-four I have quoted. They all of them admit of being interpreted so as not to contradict the doctrine of perseverance. I hold it to be an infallible rule in the exposition of Scripture, that when two texts seem to contradict one another, the less plain must give way to the more plain, and the weak must give way to the strong. That doctrine which reconciles most texts of Scripture is most likely to be right. That doctrine which makes most texts quarrel with one another is most likely to be wrong.

I ask you, if not convinced by all I have said hitherto, to put down the texts I have quoted on behalf of perseverance, and the texts commonly quoted against it, in two separate lists. Weigh them one against another. Judge them with fair and honest judgment. Which list contains the greatest number of positive, unmistakable assertions? Which list contains the greatest number of sentences which cannot be explained away? Which list is the strongest? Which list is the weakest? Which list is the most flexible? Which list is the most unbending? If it were possible in a world like this to have this question fairly tried by an unprejudiced, intelligent jury, I have not the least doubt which way the verdict would go. It is my own firm belief and conviction that the final perseverance of the saints is so deeply founded on Scriptural grounds, that so long as the Bible is the Judge, it cannot be overthrown.

Once admit that the saints of God may perish, and you seem to me to tear from the Gospel crown its brightest jewel. We are hanging on the edge of precipice. We are kept in awful suspense until we are dead. To tell us that there are plenty of gracious promises to encourage us, if we will only persevere, is but mockery. It is like telling the sick man that if he will only get well he will be strong. The poor patient feels no confidence that he will get well, and the poor weak believer feels nothing in him like power to persevere. Today he may be in Canaan, and tomorrow he may be in Egypt again, and in bondage. This week he may be in the narrow way; but for anything he knows, next week he may be back in the broad road. This month he may be a justified, pardoned, and forgiven man; but next month his pardon may be all revoked, and he himself in a state of condemnation. This year he may have faith, and be a child of God; next year he may be a child of the devil, and have no part or lot in Christ. Where is the good news in all this? What becomes of the glad tidings? Verily such doctrine seems to me to me to cut up the joy of the Gospel by the roots. Yet this is the doctrine we must hold, if we reject the final perseverance of the saints.

I bless God that I am able to see another kind of Gospel than this in the word of God. To my eyes the Bible seems to teach that he who once begins the life of faith in Christ, shall without doubt be preserved from apostasy, and come to a glorious end. Once made alive by the grace of God, he shall live for ever. Once raised from the grave of sin and made a new man, he shall never go back to the grave and become once more the old man dead in trespasses and sins. He shall be kept by the power of God. He shall be more than conqueror through Him that loved Him. The eternal God is his refuge; underneath Him are Everlasting Arms. The love in which he is interested is eternal. The righteousness in which he is clothed is eternal. The redemption which he enjoys is eternal. The sense and comfort of it he may lose by his own carelessness. But the thing itself, after once believing, is his for evermore.

Reader, the absence of the doctrine of perseverance appears to me to give a different colour to the whole Gospel. You cannot wonder if I regard it as of great importance."

"My sheep shall never perish" (John 10:28) John Goodwin, the famous Arminian, offers the following explanation of this text: "The promise of eternal safety made by Christ to His sheep, doth not relate to their estate in the present world, but to that of the world to come!" A man must be sorely put to straits when he can argue in such a way.

To the praise of His glorious grace

Heb 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
Heb 3:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, javascript:%20justReturn()and saw my works forty years.
Heb 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
Heb 3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Heb 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
Heb 3:16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
Heb 3:17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
Heb 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
Heb 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. [b][size=large][color=0099FF][font=Georgia]Howie[/font][/color][/size][/b] :-o