1 John 1:8

I'd like some insight on this passage, I've recently been asked to teach our churches electives class, which is open to anyone who would like to attend. We are going to start studying 1 John and this verse has been stuck in my craw for a couple weeks now, as there are several of the Wesleyian/Arminian persuasion in my class, and others who are not.

According to Wesley, this verse is referring to an unsaved person who claims to have no sin; while others claim that this verse is warning against self-righteousness and claims of moral perfection in a Christian. I'd love some feedback on how you all interpret this verse. Thanks,
Joe

It will be helpful to read through the section ignoring the chapter and verse distinctions...

But if [b]we[/b] walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If [b]we[/b] say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If [b]we[/b] confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If [b]we[/b] say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, [b]we have an advocate with the Father[/b], Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the [b]propitiation for our sins[/b]: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Notice how the "we" is used consistently throughout the passage. Then, John writes that "we" have an advocate with the Father, and that Christ is the propitiation for "our" sins. Also, notice it is the same "we" who is possible claiming to have no sin. Therefore, I submit that it is not an unbeliever John has in mind in verse 8, because he applies spiritual realities to this individual that an unsaved person does not have.

However, we also have to consider the whole counsel of God. Our Lord gave his disciples a daily prayer "give us this day our [b]daily[/b] bread"... In that prayer, he taught us to ask for the forgiveness of our trespasses (daily). Therefore, we can conclude that sanctification will be an ongoing process during our pilgrimmage on this earth.

With care in Christ,
Taylor

Hi Taylor,
Could these verses not be referring to the salvation of an unbeliever, since it says

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

Well...

Examining the scope of John's letter - it seems he was at least writing to [b]professing[/b] believers. He goes on to discuss various signs that someone is indeed a genuine follower of Christ. So, it honestly may be hard to establish if who he is talking to is indeed a believer (John himself could not see into men's hearts). As I said, I think he is addressing them as professing believers, perhaps with a gracious attitude in accepting their profession, but exhorting them with several signs of true belief. At the very least, in my understanding, John is writing to professing believers. I think that is obvious from the letter, and the fact that Apostles did not write letters to people who were openly unbelieving.

The Arminian/Wesleyan view is probably quick to claim that this is definitely an unbeliever, because they feel that a Christian could use this as an excuse for sin. I think you will find it is dangerous to establish beliefs in this manner (by reacting to a perceived danger in the belief). This has been done with a number of other doctrines, particularly those of Calvinistic nature (I'm assuming we're all mature here, and that I can use the word Calvinist for distinctions sake). For instance, let's use predestination/election for example, you will often find people saying "well then we would all be robots!", then completely deny predestination. They are denying a teaching because they have a preconceived idea of the results and realities of the teaching which are incorrect. I believe you may often find the same thing occuring with this issue - "well then we could all just live in sin!". Of course, Paul received the same question (Romans 6).

We just have to examine the scope of Biblical revelation (as I mentioned with the Lord's prayer). If we do, I believe we will find that sanctification is progressive throughout the life of the believer. This sanctification is worked by the Spirit of God through the means of Word, sacrament, prayer, fellowship, etc.

With care in Christ,
Taylor

The idea that a born again Christian is doomed to everyday sinfulness is nothing but a teaching and bondage of the law. Christ has made us FREE from sin and we no long have to sin. We are supposed to be DEAD to sin and live NO longer therein. In the first vs of 1 John 2 it says IF any man sin. Not when you sin, but IF you sin. How shall we that are dead to sin continue any longer therein? GOD FORBID! The entire chapter of Romans 6 deals with this topic.

The idea of grace being an "umbrella" of God's love in which we our sins are "covered" by the blood of the lamb is inaccurate. This is what the law is. The law is the blood of animals which covers our sinfulness so that the Jews could be accepted of God. God looked at the Jews through the blood of animals and didn't see their sinfulness. This is the law. But grace is when you are dead with Christ and you no longer live. You are not merely a "covered" or "excused" person but a NEW person in which sin has no power and should therefore have no presence. IF any man sin we have an advocate. Remember, not when, but IF. Grace is when the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ destroys the old man and we are a new person without bondage to sin.

When we make continue in sin we make the blood of Jesus as though it were the blood of an animal and trample it under our feet. How much sorer punishment do you suppose we will receive for this?

The covenant of grace involves higher power, higher standards, and higher consequences. If you are constantly in sin you are not dead to sin. If you are not dead to sin you are not alive to God. If you are not alive to God you haven't been resurrected with Christ and you are altogether as an unbeliever.

Do not put your bible study group under the condemnation of the law by teaching them they are trapped in sinfulness. Set them free through the baptism into Christ. Tell them they have no more excuse for sin and they should live no longer therein. Tell them they are free from sin and alive to the Kingdom of God. EXACTLY LIKE JESUS who was tempted in all ways like as we are, yet without sin. Then they can truly die to this world and set their affections on the things above where Christ sits (and we with him) at the right hand of God.

It is as Leonard Ravenhill said, what are you saved from? hell? death? no, its salvation from sin. Is the work of Christ not enough?

Hi Matt,

Thanks for your post. I was just curious, could you explain why Christ taught us to pray daily for the forgiveness of our trespasses?

I'm not condoning sin here - I am simply trying to understand why our Lord would make this command.

With care in Christ,
Taylor

I don't believe Jesus was saying we will or must trespass every day. If he was, then why did he die? Why not just continue using the blood of animals? In the context of what you are saying, we are constantly applying blood to trespasses we can't avoid. If this is the case, then what is the difference between grace and the law? Where is the new birth and what does it mean? What does it mean to be dead to sin? Truly, being dead to sin does not simply mean being forgiven of it, but that it has not power over us. We are free from it like a widow of her husband. If a woman re-marries under the proper situation but has relations with her former husband especially if he is dead, is it not adultery? Truly you cannot serve two masters. For to whom you yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants you are. Whether of sin unto death or of righteousness unto eternal life.

I think he was teaching us that we are to be constantly searching our hearts for and cleansing them from any sin we may commit. Even more, I think he was putting a focus on forgiving others as we are forgiven.

We must remember that 1 John was written to Christians and not to unbelievers. In the first chapter the Apostle John is exhorting the believers on how to maintain their fellowship and communion with God. When we walk in the light we have fellowship with God. When we walk in darkness, that fellowship is broken. Fellowship is restored by confessing our sins to God. Although Christians should not sin, because Jesus has delivered us from the power of sin, there is always the possibility that we could sin. If we walk in the Spirit then we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. We must take up our cross daily, because unless we have had radical dealings by the Lord, we do not really know ourselves as we ought to.

Mike

Hi Matt,

In speaking about the blood of animals, we need to distinguish between the shadow and the reality. The animal sacrifices were a shadow of a thing to come, namely, Christ, the true and sufficient sacrifice. And, we know from the book of Hebrews that the blood of animals was never sufficient to atone for sin.

The differences between the covenants are numerous, one being that under the old covenant, the faithful were guided my types and shadows, whereas under the new covenant we have received the things these types and shadows pointed to. We have a fuller revelation of God's redemptive purposes, etc.

The new birth is a sovereign work of God whereby the sinner is regenerated and is given spiritual eyes to see and ears to hear. It is much more than mere moral reform (as it is often preached in our day).

I agree, we have victory over sin, by the Lord's grace. I am simply stating that this mortification of sin proceeds gradually. Sin is not currently in "check-mate" as it were, but the pieces are such that check-mate is inevitable, and will be reached when the Lord returns and we "know Him as we are known."

You wrote - "I don't believe Jesus was saying we will or must trespass every day." To which I respond, that if so, he wouldn't have told us to ask forgiveness for trespasses everyday. We must also remember that simply because we do not perceive sin in ourselves does not mean that it is not present. The Lord knows what is in man, and I think it is safe to conclude that the thrice holy God can find fault with our performance any day of the week.

With care in Christ,
Taylor

Hey Guys,
Thanks for the input; Taylor, for the record, I do believe that this letter was written to professing believers, I was just begging the question, as it were, hope you don't mind...It has been my first impression reading this passage that it is referring to believers.

Hi Brother,

No problem. I've enjoyed discussing the passage!

One thing I've found is that the more a christian grows, the more they realize their total insufficiency apart from Christ. I know some define sin as a known violation of God's law.

I agree, brother. May the Lord help us all to see our utter insufficiency. As the Lord told the Pharisees - [i]"Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains."[/i] (John 9:41)

With care in Christ,
Taylor

Hey, thanks for the thoughts Taylor. So, how would I respond to those that may see this passage as referring to those that are not in Christ? I'm inclined to direct my class to the fact that there is a desire for holiness in true Christians, regardless of how they choose to word it, ie. "progressive vs entire".

Frist John is a outline of the christian character were by we can examine our lives . Here we can test ourself by the word, to examine ourself to see if we are in the faith. In 1 John 1:8 one who will say I have no sin. A christian can not say I have no sin. A christian will say without grace and the power of the spirit all I can do is sin, there is nothing good in me and if it was not for grace worked in my heart I would sin against Him all the time. In this you see the character of the christian to sin. If your only hope is in what Christ did you will find assurance in the text. If your hope is in what you have done or any other work of man you will find no peace.

Frist John is a outline of the christian character were by we can examine our lives . Here we can test ourself by the word, to examine ourself to see if we are in the faith. In 1 John 1:8 one who will say I have no sin. A christian can not say I have no sin. A christian will say without grace and the power of the spirit all I can do is sin, there is nothing good in me and if it was not for grace worked in my heart I would sin against Him all the time.

This is well said and in line with Scripture...

This reminds me of this believer's testimony...

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Psa 119:1 Blessed [are] the undefiled in the way, Who walk in the law of the LORD!

Psa 119:2 Blessed [are] those who keep His testimonies, Who seek Him with the whole heart!

Psa 119:3 They also do no iniquity; They walk in His ways.

Psa 119:4 You have commanded [us] To keep Your precepts diligently.

Psa 119:5 Oh, that my ways were directed To keep Your statutes!

Psa 119:6 Then I would not be ashamed, When I look into all Your commandments.

Psa 119:7 I will praise You with uprightness of heart, When I learn Your righteous judgments.

Psa 119:8 I will keep Your statutes; Oh, do not forsake me utterly!

Psa 119:9 How can a young man cleanse his way? By taking heed according to Your word.

Psa 119:10 With my whole heart I have sought You; Oh, let me not wander from Your commandments!

Psa 119:11 Your word I have hidden in my heart, That I might not sin against You.

Psa 119:12 Blessed [are] You, O LORD! Teach me Your statutes.

..............................................

John's testimony is the same as the writer of Pslam 119...

In Christ
Jeff

I am not posting these scriptures to say that we don't have the ability to sin. I am posting these scriptures to show that sin is not supposed to be always present in your life as a believer.

1 John 3

3And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

5And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Also, the bible says love not the world for the love of the world is enmity with God. The only way to sin is to take your affection off of the Kingdom of God and place it on this world. Then, you will mind the things of this world and seek them. Will God permit you to enter the Kingdom of God if you are his enemy and love the world? If you are resurrected with Christ, you are supposed to be alive to the Kingdom of God and dead to the world. If you mind the things of the world, you are not dead and therefore cannot be resurrected. What did Jesus tell Peter when he set his affections on the things of the world? "Get thee behind me Satan!" For thou savorest not the things which be of God but the things which be of man. Any time you have a sin in your life that is not defeated, you are standing on the outside of the Kingdom of God, you are standing in the world. For to have one sin remaining in your life is to place the world before God. Does an Idolater have a place in the Kingdom of God? No. But we are supposed to be dead to sin. DEAD. Not alive to it. You can't be alive to God and the world. It is not possible. One sin is enough to make you dead to God. If you have sin, don't fight against it in yourself, die to the world and you will no longer value it over the Kingdom of God.

Hello, brothers .. matt , mike ,taylor.. Good posting matt . The verse here in this passage is so out of line, because it is not interpreted correctly. It cannot be interpreted correctly because it does not fit in with verse 6,7 nor does it fit in with 1 john 3:4-6. the amplified bible does not even have it stated as it should read . first , this passage is not refering to sanctification , but it is refering to justification. it is immedietly preceeded by the assertion , " the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin." so verse 8 could not be saying "that if we say we have no sin we decieve ourselves ", and this could not be said right after " the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin " come on , all exspositors and preachers, represent Jesus better ,please ! , i beg of you to learn this. John the apostle would never contradict himself .in verse nine John says it again " that the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all unrighteousness ",if we are cleansed from all unrighteous ness we are cleansed fron all sin.John is speaking of being Justified here , not sanctification.here is the meaning of the whole passage as given by charles finney....If we say that we are not sinners , that is , have no need of the blood of Jesus Christ ; that we have never sinned, and consequently need no savior, we deceive ourselves. For we have sinned, and nothing but the blood of Christ cleanseth us from sin, or procures are pardon and justification. And now, if we will not deny , but confess that we have sinned, " He is faithful and just to forgive our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." " But if we say we have not sinned we make Him aliar, and His word is not in us." ... Now to the lords prayer ... it would also be a flat contradiction for Jesus to have us pray for it to be here on earth as it is in heaven , and then have us to pray for sins that we keep commiting to be forgiven. it is a sinless state in heaven. we can only ask Christ for forgiveness only when we have repented , so the lords prayer is for forgiveness of past sins. the lords prayer is only having a renewed abhorence and grief over our past sins,and a fresh acknowledgement of , and a casting ourselves upon His mercy. His having Forgiven us does not make the potition improper..

Brother Clint wrote:

the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin." so verse 8 could not be saying "that if we say we have no sin we decieve ourselves ", and this could not be said right after " the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin "

We have this thought given to us in Scripture...
..............................................................................
Psa. 119:1 \tBlessed are the undefiled in the way,
\tWho walk in the law of the LORD!
2 \tBlessed are those who keep His testimonies,
\tWho seek Him with the whole heart!
3 \tThey also do no iniquity;
\tThey walk in His ways.
.............................................................................

Likewise John who knows the Scriptures writes this...

..............................................................................

1 John:

6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

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These two sections of Scripture say the same thing do they not?

Likewise if we continue, we find this parallel of these two sections of Scripture....
.........................................................................................
Psalm 119:
4 \tYou have commanded us
\tTo keep Your precepts diligently.
5 \tOh, that my ways were directed
\tTo keep Your statutes!
6 \tThen I would not be ashamed,
\tWhen I look into all Your commandments.
7 \tI will praise You with uprightness of heart,
\tWhen I learn Your righteous judgments.
8 \tI will keep Your statutes;
\tOh, do not forsake me utterly!
9 \tHow can a young man cleanse his way?
\tBy taking heed according to Your word.
...............................................................................

and

..............................................................................
1John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. 1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin.
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John and the writer of Psalm 119 have shared with us the same precept...

Remember, John finishes this exhortation with these words..."My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin."

If one continues in John's letter we find this thought....

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12 I write to you, little children,
\t\tBecause your sins are forgiven you for His name’s sake.
13 I write to you, fathers,
\t\tBecause you have known Him who is from the beginning.
\t\tI write to you, young men,
\t\tBecause you have overcome the wicked one.
\t\tI write to you, little children,
\t\tBecause you have known the Father.
14 I have written to you, fathers,
\t\tBecause you have known Him who is from the beginning.
\t\tI have written to you, young men,
\t\tBecause you are strong, and the word of God abides in you,
\t\tAnd you have overcome the wicked one.
................................................................................................

The writer of Psalms 119 writes....

......................................................................

9 \tHow can a young man cleanse his way?
\tBy taking heed according to Your word.
10 \tWith my whole heart I have sought You;
\tOh, let me not wander from Your commandments!
11 \tYour word I have hidden in my heart,
\tThat I might not sin against You.
12 \tBlessed are You, O LORD!
\tTeach me Your statutes.
13 \tWith my lips I have declared
\tAll the judgments of Your mouth.
14 \tI have rejoiced in the way of Your testimonies,
\tAs much as in all riches.
15 \tI will meditate on Your precepts,
\tAnd contemplate Your ways.
16 \tI will delight myself in Your statutes;
\tI will not forget Your word.
17 \tDeal bountifully with Your servant,
\tThat I may live and keep Your word.
.......................................................................................

Please notice that John divides the body of believers into three groups and then distinguishes each group from one another. Then meditate on how a "young man" cleanses his way, according to what is written in Psalm 119 above...

Just some bread to feed upon...

God Bless
Jeff

I agree with the Charles Finney quote. 1 John 1:8 refers to the unsaved condition of a man.

As far as willful and ignorant sins, that is another topic. Is a young child not excused from their sin for their ignorance? Is it not altogether because they don't understand right and wrong? Does God not excuse us for the same? I had not known sin until I had known the law. But when the law entered, sin slew me. I think an important aspect to bring into this picture is the "pure conscience" that Paul spoke about. 1 John 1:8 is not an excuse for an unclean conscience. Ignorant sin does not defile your conscience. Willful sin does. If we don't have a pure conscience at the moment of Christ's return, will he take us with him? Or will we have to turn back in order to purchase oil? We will altogether be left out of the Kingdom of God if we have a defiled conscience. Cleanse yourselves and IF you sin, repent, then go and sin NO MORE lest a worse thing come upon you.

hello Jim , this is Clint . i do not know why some people will always claim that we have sin no matter what . Whether it is known or unknown matters not when it comes to being free from all of it. Free of it from our Flesh and souls and spirits as the bible claims that the Blood of Christ does. what really needs to be known is the holy Spirit and the ministration of life and that life is Jesus and God the Father indwelling us and we abiding in them through the Holy Spirit. teachers that teach that we will always have sin as long as we live do not understand what Jesus secured for us by His atonement. God is not always , constantly at every moment cleansing us from some form of unknown sin. I cannot ,along with everyone that exist believe in nor deny ,something that is not fully understood, nor the ideal of it developed. i hear that there is such athing as unknown sin but i can not agree or dissagree because it has not been shown me to be scriptually true . So far as my knowledge is i cannot believe that sin is anything more than voluntarily , choosing to withhold Love from God with part of our heart and souls and strenght. If we do not know we are doing this , then we sin not, and are still free from all sin.. Jesus refused to wash peters whole body because it was already Clean. Jesus washed peters' and the other disciples' feet because that is what came into contact with the world. This feet washing example points to the reality of being without sin completely !!! as so very many Scriptures do. Every Christian can walk in SINLESS PERFECTION the bible everywhere exspesses this most assuredly and unequivically.

I do believe that you misunderstand the " Sin nature" that we supposedly inherited from adam. All that we inherited from adams' sin is death. which is the OUTCOME of SIN and not sin itself. Now this outcome has EFFECTED us in the since that the appetites and propensities have been ENFLUENCED and TWISTED. the people who take the enfluence form the outcome of sin , which is physical death and spiritual death, and make the mistake of calling that Sin, are making a gross and erroneous mistake. The bible and gospel never makes Sin out to be constitutional , or in other words , physical and INVOLUNTARY . there is a big difference between physical depravity, and moral depravity. physical depravity in and of itself is not sin.

Brother Clint wrote:

i hear that there is such athing as unknown sin but i can not agree or dissagree because it has not been shown me to be scriptually true . So far as my knowledge is i cannot believe that sin is anything more than voluntarily , choosing to withhold Love from God with part of our heart and souls and strenght.

This is what Scripture teaches...

..............................................................................................
Lev. 4:
1 Now the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Speak to the children of Israel, saying: ‘If a person sins unintentionally against any of the commandments of the LORD in anything which ought not to be done, and does any of them, 3 if the anointed priest sins, bringing guilt on the people, then let him offer to the LORD for his sin which he has sinned a young bull without blemish as a sin offering.

Lev. 4:13 “Now if the whole congregation of Israel sins unintentionally, and the thing is hidden from the eyes of the assembly, and they have done something against any of the commandments of the LORD in anything which should not be done, and are guilty; 14 when the sin which they have committed becomes known, then the assembly shall offer a young bull for the sin, and bring it before the tabernacle of meeting.

Lev. 4:22 “When a ruler has sinned, and done something unintentionally against any of the commandments of the LORD his God in anything which should not be done, and is guilty, 23 or if his sin which he has committed comes to his knowledge, he shall bring as his offering a kid of the goats, a male without blemish.

Lev. 4:27 “If anyone of the common people sins unintentionally by doing something against any of the commandments of the LORD in anything which ought not to be done, and is guilty, 28 or if his sin which he has committed comes to his knowledge, then he shall bring as his offering a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he has committed.

.............................................................................................

Do you hear what the Scriptures say?

In Christ
Jeff

Thank you brother Jim!!!

I do not have to sin. You do not have to sin. And nobody can prove different. I CAN sin if I want to. But I do not have to sin. When you say we cannot live without sinning you say I MUST sin. Why then did Jesus die? Why not just keep using bulls and sheep blood?

I no longer have the nature of Adam. I have the nature of God. I am a new creature. I am born of the second Adam. I overcome the world and the lust thereof. I am alive to the Kingdom of God and do not set my affections on this world. When I do this, I do not sin.

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

(on a total side not. Right now it is hailing the largest hail I have ever seen. It is almost as big as a dime.) God bless.

i know all these scriptures this is the law and no man can keep all 630 something of them Jesus did not even keep the letter of the law.. come on ! i am a very intelegent man when it comes to Love and the fulfilment of the law of love in CHRIST JESUS. Jesus told peter to eat that which used to be unlawful for peter to eat as a jew and one who tried to keep the letter of it.

yes that is true to fact . calvin , edwards , and such the like have erroneous views when they speak of the sin nature.. as being something that is involuntary and that we have no choice in the matter, of always having . george whitfield s'comment in this post was not accurate either , All that george could of meant is past sin already cleasnsed from .

matt , you have said well . These things are so very clearly dealt with by Pauls' teachings ,, which was THE GOSPEL , these arguments are stirring me to want to go shout it from the roof tops THAT JESUS CHRIST HAS REDEEMED US FROM THE FALL AND GIVEN US LIFE ABUNDANTLY >>>> THERE IS PLENTY TO DO THAT IS ALL FOR HIM AND BY HIM AND THROUGH HIM THAT WE CAN ESCAPE ALL THE PETTY TEMPTATIONS OF THE DEVIL , THE WORLD ,and THE FLESH HEBREWS 9:13-28 exsplains that SIN HAS BEEN DEALT WITH, TO NO MORE EXIST, IN OUR BODY SOULS OR SPIRITS< BECAUSE OF CHRIST SHEDDING HIS BLOOD AND DYING ONCE AND FOR ALL .. matt this is so clearly taught by paul and John that sin and its curse of confusion and twisted thinking and death . NOW HAS NO PLACE IN CHRIST ,GOD , OR THOSE WHO ARE IN CHRIST JESUS . nowhere not one unclean place, not one unclean place, now the conscientious aspect of it and the renewing of the mind by the leading of the Holy Ghost and being cleaned by the BLOOD [ Life ] of Christ is what needs to be taught on and looked at , ans studied constantly . that is called SEEING HIM that the book of hebrews 2:8,9 speaks of. GOD BLESS YUO ALL AND MAY YOU SEE HOW FREE FROM SIN CHRIST JESUS HAS MADE YOU !! Clint .

Jim i am not railing on you i know that you post well on this site. i know by the Spirit you are a Good Christian. the point that I clearly want to get across for all that may read any of my posts here is that SIN CANNOT BE AN ATTRIBUTE OF HUMAN NATURE> for this would be physical , and not moral depravity. to talk of a sinful nature , or sinful constitution, in the sense of physical sinfulness , is to ascribe sinfulness to the creator, who is the author of nature. It is to overlook the essential nature of sin, and to make sin a physical virus , instead of a voluntary and responsible choice . Both sound philosophy and the bible make sin to consist in obeying the flesh,or in the spirit of self- pleasing , or self-indulgence ,which is the same thing, in selfishness-in a carnal mind , or in minding the flesh. Sin is not reporduced by nature and is not passed down by nature.the terms original sin , indwelling sin ,an appetite for sin ,an attribute of human nature , and the teachings promoting such are misleading and false and not biblically taught . The scriptures that biblical teachers use to teach of a sinful nature are misinterpreting those passages .

Brother Clint wrote:

i know all these scriptures this is the law and no man can keep all 630 something of them Jesus did not even keep the letter of the law.. come on ! i am a very intelegent man when it comes to Love and the fulfilment of the law of love in CHRIST JESUS.

Many have the same response because they have repeated what others have said that have gone before them. But, I have never heard it said that Jesus did not obey the Law of Moses fully.

With that said...you have not seen what the Scripture teaches about "unintentional sin" and how God views this sin. Again what does the Scripture teach about this type of sin?

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Lev. 4:
1 Now the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Speak to the children of Israel, saying: ‘If a person sins unintentionally against any of the commandments of the LORD in anything which ought not to be done, and does any of them, 3 if the anointed priest sins, bringing guilt on the people, then let him offer to the LORD for his sin which he has sinned a young bull without blemish as a sin offering.

Lev. 4:13 “Now if the whole congregation of Israel sins unintentionally, and the thing is hidden from the eyes of the assembly, and they have done something against any of the commandments of the LORD in anything which should not be done, and are guilty; 14 when the sin which they have committed becomes known, then the assembly shall offer a young bull for the sin, and bring it before the tabernacle of meeting.

Lev. 4:22 “When a ruler has sinned, and done something unintentionally against any of the commandments of the LORD his God in anything which should not be done, and is guilty, 23 or if his sin which he has committed comes to his knowledge, he shall bring as his offering a kid of the goats, a male without blemish.

Lev. 4:27 “If anyone of the common people sins unintentionally by doing something against any of the commandments of the LORD in anything which ought not to be done, and is guilty, 28 or if his sin which he has committed comes to his knowledge, then he shall bring as his offering a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he has committed.
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What does Scripture teach us, he who has ears let him hear....

In Christ
Jeff

What type of sin did Job commit? Intentional or unintentional.

In Christ
Jeff

Sin Nature? Erroneous?

I think not.

Ephesians 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Gaebelein's Annoted Bible
Ephesians 2:1

2. The Production of the Masterwork and its Destiny

CHAPTER 2:1-10

1. What we are by nature (2:1-3)
2. What God does--rich in mercy (2:4-6)
3. The destiny of the masterwork (2:7)
4. Saved by grace (2:8-10)
After the great revelation of the first chapter and the prayer which followed, the production of the masterpiece itself is now brought more fully into view. We have before us a revelation concerning our state by nature and how God takes us up and produces out of such material His masterpiece. The first ten verses of this chapter give us this story. They contain one of the richest portions of the whole Word of God.

The first verse tells us that we are by nature in the state of death--"dead in trespasses and sins." Man is dead spiritually; he is dead towards God (Joh 5:24-25). This fact that the unregenerated man is dead is much denied in our days. We hear of "the better self," or "the good spark" which is in everybody, and the truth God has revealed concerning man, that he is dead in trespasses and sins is but little believed. The next verse states the walk of the natural man. It fully shows the awful place in which man is as dead in trespasses and sins. The walk is according to his fallen nature; the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life are the governing principles of this walk. We are enemies of God by wicked works. And behind all there stands the prince of the power of the air, Satan. He works in the children of disobedience, which here means the Jews. Of this our Lord spake when He said, "Ye are of your father, the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do" (Joh 8:44). And again it is written, "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. (1Jo 3:8). It is a solemn truth, which God has revealed concerning our condition as fallen beings, that we are in the grasp of the prince of the power of the air; that man is under this mighty being of darkness. To what a place of degradation man has been brought by sin! This likewise is disbelieved by the great majority of professing Christians. A personal devil is ridiculed and his existence is denied.

In the third verse another description is added, "children of wrath." The "you" of the first verse is addressed to the Ephesians, showing what they were in their former condition. The "we" in the third verse means the Jews "among whom we also had our conversation." The apostle shows that the Jews were in the same condition; and he adds "and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." Jews and Gentiles are dead in trespasses and sins, are the enemies of God and children of wrath. And this truth is also increasingly denied. The Word of God is most positive, and tells us "that he that believeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him" (Joh 3:36). The denial of a future, conscious and eternal punishment of the wicked is becoming wide-spread; it is one of the marks of the latter day cults like Christian Science, Russellism, the New Theology, Spiritism and others. But the believer who knows the gospel and knows that he is "saved by grace" does not deny the truth of these first three verses of this chapter. It is our true photograph. Such material, God has to produce out of it His great masterwork.

After this dark picture of death, ruin and wrath, we read what God has done and does, for all who believe on His Son, our Lord Jesus Christ. "But God who is rich in mercy, for the great love, wherewith He loved us" (verse 4). This is the blessed bridge, which leads out of the dark and dreary, hopeless condition. But God! Man is guilty and lost. But God! God now comes in and makes known the riches of His mercy. Yet a righteous, holy God cannot be rich in mercy unless His righteousness is fully met and maintained. His mercy must have for a foundation His righteousness. And this is blessedly the case. He is rich in mercy for the great love wherewith He loved us. He gave His only begotten Son. He made Him who knew no sin, sin for us. He made full atonement on the cross and now God can be rich in mercy. And what does He do with such as we are? Verses 5-6 tell the blessed story.

These verses in which we read of the believer's quickening, his resurrection with Christ and being seated in Christ in the heavenlies, take us back to the time when our blessed Savior Lord was quickened and raised from the dead and seated in glory. It is plain what God did for Him, who died on the cross, He has done for all, who believe on His Son. Many Christians are ignorant of this great truth, while others have difficulty in grasping it. Yet it is quite Simple. Every Christian believes that when the Lord Jesus suffered on the cross He bore our sins in His own body on the tree. With the Apostle Paul every believer is entitled to say in looking back to the cross, "He loved me, He gave Himself for me." We know all our sins were paid for by Him; all the punishment we deserved fell upon Him, our substitute. In Him we died. All this happened when we were not in existence at all. The sins He bore were not yet committed. God knew all about us and all about our sins and shame, the punishment we deserved, and His ever-blessed Son took all upon Himself. In the same sense God hath quickened us with Christ, raised us up and seated us in Him, when He did this for His Son our Lord Jesus Christ. This is simple, yet so wonderful and deep, that it is incomprehensible. It was all done for us, who believe, when it was done for Him. God in His marvelous counsels in redemption has associated us with Christ. He has made all, who believe on Him, sharers of His life and nature; He brings us into the same relationship as sons, and finally into the same glory and inheritance. Let us bear in mind that all this was done for us in Christ. He is the first one who was quickened, raised up and exalted in glory, and associated with Him are all His members; we share it with Him.

And all this becomes our blessed portion by faith in Jesus Christ. As we believe on Him, we are quickened, that is, we receive life, even eternal life and are saved by grace. Then we are risen with Him. We are now in Him, risen from the dead, the sons of God. Likewise in Christ (not with Christ) we are seated in the heavenly places. Now it is "in Him"; when He comes again we shall be "with Him" and share His glory. Here we have the summit of Christian position. We are not along representatively, but also virtually seated in Christ in the highest glory.

It is worth the while to review in a brief word the blessed revelations given in the first six verses of this chapter.

We saw first what man is by nature. Dead in trespasses and sins. Enemies of God under the prince of the power of the air, this is the result of such a condition. Children of wrath, because we are dead, His enemies and linked with Satan.

And now God has come in with His mighty power in the production of His masterwork. He gives life so that the dead condition is ended. Instead of enemies, we are constituted, by the resurrection of His Son, beloved sons of Himself. And in Christ Jesus, He makes of us children of glory, instead of children of wrath. Marvelous masterwork of God! May we praise Him for it all.

But one must ask in view of such riches of grace, as revealed in the preceding verses, What is the purpose of all this? The verse which follows gives the answer. We find ourselves face to face with the destiny of His masterpiece.

"That in the ages to come He might show (or display) the exceeding (surpassing) riches of His grace in kindness towards us in Christ Jesus" (verse 7). This is one of the richest and deepest statements in the Bible. Two ages follow the present age. The millennial age, and after that has lasted for a thousand years, the eternal state begins. In the coming age and in all eternity, God is going to make known His glory through and in His masterwork. All His redeemed will be with Him in glory. When He comes again He brings many sons to glory; and we shall reign and rule with Him over the earth.

But this is not all. in the eternal age, from eternity to eternity, God is continuing in this. He will bring forth something new in glory, new riches of Himself for those who are one with His well-beloved Son. From eternity to eternity He displays the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness towards us in Christ Jesus. How one is overwhelmed in the presence of such a statement! And how little after all we can understand all those coming riches in glory. What a destiny! The heart may well cry--nothing but glory! What is the little suffering, the little while down here, in comparison with such never ending glory!

Fittingly this great revelation ends with the blessed statement that we are saved by grace through faith, and that not of ourselves, it is the gift of God; and that we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

We cannot walk in good works unless we have a nature change. Christ in you, is our new nature, for He was not our Lord, Savior, Brother, Friend, and telling us to Call God "Our Father".

If this is not a nature change from your father the devil, I don't know what is.

Praise God my old nature is dead on the Cross with Christ. Being alive to sin and Satan, then being crucified with Christ, and with new life in Christ being a Holy Creation in Christ Jesus is certainly a change in Nature.

Ephesians 2:4-6 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Galatians 2:16-20 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Not only a new nature, but a complete new Creature in Christ Jesus our Lord.

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Ga 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

Is not uncircumcision or circumcision a nature?

Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Romans 2:27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

Romans 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

Galatians 2:15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,

Galatians 4:8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.

Ephesians 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

2 Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

What Nature? "Devine Nature"

In Christ: Phillip

the letter kills , But the Spirit gives Life. the time when Jesus did not keep the law , in those religious spirited guys thought that by law Jesus could not heal someone on the sabbath, because that was work . another time they thought that an adulterous woman should be stoned, because that was a levitacle law, Jesus did not keep that one. the woman was not stoned. I am so sure i can find more but i amnot here to argue this easy point, it is triffling. the Spirit of the law of God is Love and Jesus always kept and did that perfectly.

I know that sin has a nature. I know the difference between the nature of sin , which is the RESULTS of Sin and not the SIN ITSELF. the bible clearly distiguishes this . I klnow that the Life is ONLY had by yielding to the Holy SPIRIT ,, this yielding to the HOLY SPIRIT by praying in tounges and by groanings that He Gives to those who yield to this earnest of our inheritance will Be cleaned from all philthiness of Flesh,, from all philthiness of soul and from all philthiness of spirit. This Cleansing is a result of being led by the spirit of God , the changing of our bodies comes latter but that is not meaning that our bodies are sinful and have sin in them by nature till then. our bodies may have the corupt RESULTS of SIN but have sin itself in them .

The question of whether we have to confess our sins anymore is not what this is about. 1 John 2:1-2 is enough to show this answer. We are probably going to sin after we get saved and we are supposed to confess it when we do. The question is whether when we confess our sins we are cleansed of them completely or if sins always abide in us because we always are sinning.

What an OBVIOUS answer! How can sin always be in us and at the same time be gone? It is not possible. If sin were always in us, then we would never need to confess more than one time that we are sinful and that is it. If Christ hasn't delivered us from our sins then how can we confess sins as they arise? For they are always there! In the case some are describing of an ever sinful heart, the sins are always there. NOT POSSIBLE! If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves refers to our state prior to confession. Which is why it is followed by the statement of 1 John 1:9. When John writes 1 John 1:10 he is simply adding to his point in vs 8 that we have all sinned and what it means to say such a thing.

The determining word in this argument is the word BUT. We have sin, BUT if we confess our sins we are cleansed. In other words, we have sin, UNTIL we confess our sins and are cleansed. How can a man be cleansed of a sin he is currently committing? What happened to repentance? I cannot steal with one hand and hold the hand of Christ with another. Nobody can serve two masters. Either you are in sin, or you are not. If you are in sin and are judged, what will the verdict be? Christ did not die so you could sin and not be punished. Christ died so you could not be punished for the sin you previously committed, and that you would not sin anymore. And IF you sin, ... 1 John 2:1-2.

I proclaim at this moment in my life I have no sin in me. I have a pure conscience. Acts 24:16 And my heart does not condemn me 1 John 3:21,22. I am prepared for the return of Christ in my heart and I am dead to the world. Nothing in my life at this moment is between me and God. There is no sin. Am I perfect in all spiritual understanding? No. Do I have perfect faith in all things? No. Am I in any way transgressing the commandment of God in my life? No. I am sinless! And [b]IF[/b] I sin, I will know what to do. 1 John 2:1-2.

You call me a hypocrite, but are these not the very words of the apostle Paul?

This teaching would seem like the law and not grace to some. But if that is so, then you are confused about what grace and the law really are. Romans 6:14

matt, well said brother. I know by the Holy Ghost that i am called to preach Christ crucified and raised from the dead . And this was done that we might choose to abide IN Him Forever. My disagreement in any of these posts in this discussion forum is with the lack of distinction between Physical depravity { Physical crookedness } and Moral depravity { self- interestedness, self- seeking, moral crookedness ] when scriptures are refered to as saying that SIN and physical depravity [ physical crookedness ] are the same thing , are a misinterpretation of Scripture, and threby are a misrepresentation of the Good news [ gospel ]. Sin is not physical crookedness, ever. Sin happens ALWAYS by TEMPTATION . This makes me think of bartemeus , the blind man Jesus healed , the people asked Jesus who's fault it was that He was born blind his or his parents. Jesus said to them that it was neither his ,or his parents fault. I think those who asked Jesus this question mistook physical depravity for moral depravity . those who asked this Surely thought Some sin of His or his parents caused him to be blind. This was not the case and Thank God Jesus knew it . I am so Glad that the Holy Spirit Knows How to deliver those That will follow Him into a place of knowing how to Forgive sin and to also be able to say " take up your bed and Walk , such as i have give I unto thee." The First thing JESUS CLEANSES by the Holy GHost is the Flesh , second is the soul [ conscience ] thirdly He cleanses us in our spirits . Some on this thred have assumed and added to my thoughts here . I am at fault for not being thurough and clear with my thoughts . I know that they light comes more and more as I look to Jesus. I know when He is breaking me ,and i come to the place, by the Holy Ghost, that i have a hatred for sin , equal to Gods hatred of it,then , that is the time that God delivers me from it and i Go on into God {Love} deeper than i was before. This sanctification We have brings Oneness with Jesus and the Father as far as God reveals Himself to us By the Holy Ghost. I wish that all could get 2 cor. 5:1-5 ,, romans 8; 21-27 , Jude 20 , . The gift of praying in the Holy Ghost and building ourselves up in our most Holy Commitment [ faith ]. This is the key to understanding the how , the who, the when, the where , and the why , of the ways of LOVE [ God ] to ourselves and also to the rest of mankind. Again , thank you for standing with me , matt , and proclaiming the great salvation love has wrought for us, and that surely sets us free to always lalk in life and godliness and that more aboundantly than we can ask or think, all we have to do is be a disciplined follower of Christ Jesus ..

MattChenier,clintstone and any other "sinless" claimers,

You both speak with one voice when these words were posted, "I proclaim at this moment in my life I have no sin in me...There is no sin. Am I perfect in all spiritual understanding? No. Do I have perfect faith in all things? No. Am I in any way transgressing the commandment of God in my life? No. I am sinless! And IF I sin, I will know what to do."

There have been many who've been patiently admonishing and exhorting you here on this forum.

A sharp rebuke is unlikely to prevail with you either.

You have been shown how prone to sin that men in flesh and blood bodies are, but you refuse counsel from the Word of God.

But even as Jesus said to the pharisees in John 9:41 "Jesus said to them, If you were blind, you would have no sin. But now you say, We see; therefore, your sin remains."

Presumptuous sin,sins of ignorance,pride,arrogance,thoughts,attitudes,motives and the like have been brought to your attention.Yet you insist on being self-condemned.
Tit 3:10,11 A sectarian man, after a first and second admonition be rejecting,having known that he hath been subverted who is such, and doth sin, being self-condemned.

YOU ARE DECEIVED!!!

I will make you aware of yet another sin which holds you tight in its grip.

"Every deviation from truth is a sin. It is not simply a sin for me to do a wrong act, but it is a sin for me to believe a wrong doctrine."

You admit when you say, "Am I perfect in all spiritual understanding? No. Do I have perfect faith in all things? No.", that you do not know whether the doctrine you believe is correct on every point.To believe a wrong doctrine is sin.

If we do not know which doctrines we may be holding to are erroneous we cannot confess nor repent of them. This adds to the other sins mentioned already above of which you are guilty.

I will end this post with the words of C.H. Spurgeon on the subject of believing a wrong doctrine being sin. He expounds upon this well I believe.

"In the first place, every deviation from truth is a sin. It is not simply a sin for me to do a wrong act, but it is a sin for me to believe a wrong doctrine. Lately our ministers have absolved us all from obeying God in our judgments; they have told us point blank, many of them, in their drawing-rooms, and some of them in the pulpit, that we shall never be asked in the day of judgment what we believed. We have been told that for our acts we shall be responsible, but for our faith we shall be irresponsible, or something very much like it; they have told us plainly, that the God who made us, although he has authority over our hands, our feet, our eyes and our lips, hath but little authority over our judgments; they have told us, that if we make ever such blunders in divinity, they are no sins, so long as we can live right lives. But is that true?

No; the whole man is bound to serve God; and if God gives me a judgment, I am bound to employ that judgment in his service; and if that judgment receive an untruth, it has received stolen goods, and I have sinned as much as if I put forth my hand to take my neighbour's goods. There may be degrees in the sin. If it be a sin of ignorance, it is nevertheless a sin; but it is not so heinous as a sin of negligence, which I fear it is with many. I tell you, beloved, if, for instance, baptism be not by immersion, I commit a sin every time I practice it; and if it be, my brother commits a sin who does not practise it. If Election be true, I am committing a sin if I do not believe it; and if Final Perseverance be true, I am committing a sin before Almighty God, if I do not receive it; and if it be not true, then I sin in embracing what is not scriptural. Error in doctrine is as much a sin as error in practice.

In everything we are bound to serve our God with all our might, exercising those powers of judging and believing which he has given unto us; and I warn you, Christians, not to think it is a little thing to hold faith with a feeble hand: it is a sin every time you do aught which makes you waver in the faith of Jesus Christ. Remember, too, that error in doctrine is not only a sin, but a sin which has a great tendency to increase. When a man once in his life believes a wrong thing, it is marvellous how quickly he believes another wrong thing. Once open the door to a false doctrine—Satan says it is but a little one—ay, but he only puts the little one in like the small end of the wedge, and he means to drive in a larger one; and he will say it is only a little more, and a little more, and a little more. The most damnable heretics who ever perverted the faith of God erred by littles and littles; those who have gone the widest from truth have only gone so by degrees. Whence came the Church of Rome, that mass of abominations? Why, from gradual departures. It did not become abominable at first; it was not the "mother of harlots" all at once; but it first did deck itself in some ornaments, then in others, and by-and-bye it went on to commit its fornications with the kings of the earth. It fell by little and little, and in the same way it separated itself from the truth. For centuries it was a Church of Christ, and it is difficult to say, looking at history, when was the exact point in which it ceased to be numbered with Christian Churches. Take care, Christians, if you commit one error, you cannot tell how many more you will commit.

"Hold fast the form of sound words," because error in doctrine almost inevitably leads to error in practice. When a man believes wrongly, he will soon act wrongly. Faith has a great influence on our conduct. As a man's faith, so is he. If you begin to imbibe erroneous doctrines, they soon have an effect on your practice. Keep fast to the bulwarks of your fathers' faith. If you do not, the enemy will make sad havoc with you. "Hold fast the form of sound words which was delivered unto you."

And now, for the good of the Church itself, I want you all to "hold fast the form of sound words." Would you wish to see the Church prosperous? Would you wish to see it peaceful? Then "hold fast the form of sound words." What is the cause of divisions, schisms, quarrels, and bickerings amongst us? It is not the fault of the truth; it is the fault of the errors. There would have been peace in the Church, entire and perpetual peace, if there had been purity—entire and perpetual purity—in the Church."

Can water be removed from a fish and the fish not be removed from the water? I have confessed my sins and they are removed from me. Not only this, but I am removed from them. God bless.

The argument that the epistle is written to Christians does not prove that he isn't talking about our state before we are saved. That is a not sufficient grounds to build such a strong conclusion. I back my stand on Romans chapter 6 and many other scriptures including 1 John 1:9. Read Romans 6 and tell me a person saved by grace cannot be sinless. Read 1 John chapters 2-5 and tell me the same thing. Such a small piece of "evidence" that you destroy so much truth over.

The "sin nature" does still abide in our flesh. This is shown by Paul's statements in Corinthians when he says he serves God with his mind but with his flesh he serves Sin. So is he a servant of both? Impossible. Nobody can serve two master. Rather, he chooses who he serves. Before he was crucified with Christ he served the flesh willing or not as is seen in his prior statements about doing what he doesn't want to do. He is speaking in this case as though he were not saved and is bound to serve the flesh. However, when he is baptized into Christ, he is set free from the power of his own flesh, in which he dwells, and is alive to God.

So the "sin nature" of Paul's flesh still abides, but it has no power over him because ... he is crucified with Christ, neverthless he lives, yet not him, but Christ lives in him and the life which he now lives [i]in the flesh[/i] he lives by the faith of the Son of God.

Sin nature still there, Sin in the heart not there. Sinful flesh, sinless man. Baptism into Christ. True doctrine.

1John 2:26niv "I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray."
The purpose for the letter writen to the saints, is that false brethen were tring to lead them astay. The same is true for the letter to the Galations. Paul was warning about starting with the Spirit, and then relying on self efforts, by obeying the Law to finish the work.
In first John, John was warning about the false teaching of lawlessness, saying that you are saved yet living in darkness, and saying that you are not sinning because grace covers all, therefore you have no need for repentance.

There is a message very similar to this one being preached today, it even goes to the point of saying all are saved, because Jesus died for all sin, but it's lacking faith. Faith brings the substance of what Jesus did into reality.

1 John 1:6 niv "If we claim to have fellowship with Him yet walk in darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth."

John is refuting this doctrine, with a warning that if we live this way, we don't understand the truth.

1John 1:8 niv "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."

I beleive He is talking about the same thing as verse six, claiming to be in the light, saying I'm saved and sin free, yet walking in darkness.

The cure is Jesus, when you see the blood stained hands, feet, and side, and realise that he bore it all, you can not help falling in Love with Him, and turning from ungodliness to Our Risen Lord, who has Grace and Mercy for all who turn to Him.

Love in CHRIST
tom

Thomasm, God bless you, but please, read all of what I have posted before combating pieces of it. I have in no manner from the beginning or until now said that we are to be doing anything of our own works. I have spoken about this time and time again so far. If you read all of what I have written you will find no room to believe that what I am speaking of is the falling from grace that the Galatians experienced. Being sinless isn't falling from grace. Its called being in grace. Romans 6:14

Dear Matt, My post had absolutely nothing to do with your posts, it was a reply to the first post.

I do believe that in Christ, with His nature we can rise above sin, not at all saying we cannot sin or will not sin, or that we do not have to confess our sin, when we do fall, so that our conscience remains clean.

There is a place in Christ where we lose ourselves and take on His nature, but very few have found it, because very few dare to believe it. Everything in Christ is attained by simple faith, in what He has already done.

LOVE IN CHRIST
tom

Agreed, and very sorry for the assumption. Please forgive me as I am sure you will. Thanks and God bless.

I have never in any of my posts claimed that i have , or have not been, sanctified completely . I have however and will forever proclaim, as scripture does, that they who are sanctified and He that sanctifies are one. This oneness will bring about a total cleasing from all sin in the flesh all sin the soul and all sin in our spirit. Jesus only had to Clean the disciples feet WHY WHY WHY??? did He not clean the rest of thier Bodies at that time?? Jesus told them that His words have already cleaned the rest of the body,, The bible everywhere affirms and commands and promises to cleanse us and from all Sin and then too FILL US WITH ALL THE FULNESS OF GOD and it says that this is to happen in this life,meaning that we can and are to Have a body here now Wholly Filled and Flooded with God Himself, My body cleansed from all philthiness and Filled with God !,, My body a temple of God ! ,, My body a habitation of God ! , These are commands from God , reject them and you reject Him , not Me, with every command , God Gives us . He also Gives to us a precious promise of fulfilment through believing the promises , and that is why everything that IS NOT FAITH IS A SIN,.

matt , just because the flesh serves sin does not mean or imply or prove that paul has sin in His flesh by nature . tha t is not what paul is implying. where Jesus said , that; " that which is born of spirit is spirit and that which is born of flesh is flesh, " is simply saying that what is done from the holy spirit is spirtual, and that that which is done from the flesh is sin..it is sin because self seeking is the whole of Sin.

paul is not saying anything about a constitutional sin nature in His flesh. He never does say ,or imply this anywhere in the bible ..if sin, is by our, or part of our nature, what we would do , left to ourselves. then salvation by the atonement would be by justice, and not by Grace. the notion of a sinful substance of flesh,does not fit all truth. it does not consist with other sound doctrine. I know that you will see this as you go with God in your studies of His word God bless you brother , sincerely , Clint .

Quote from Walter
I love this dialogue that continues between 4 posters that are in total agreement ON EVERY ISSUE. Actually, if we look close, they are ALL saying the same thing. Four “different” posters, with identical grammatical and posting style and vocabulary, all in identical Doctrinal error!

The four posters (Christinyou, MattChenier,Clintstone, & Thomasm) that could very well be one poster, masquerading as four.

Have you “four” noticed that you are talking and dialoguing among "yourselves", but refuse to do so with others?
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This seems like a very big assumption on your part, as I have only made two posts on this thread. I also agree with you on many points, does that make us one and the same person also.

My first post was a reply to the original question, and having read the entire thread, no one to my knowledge, has given this understanding of 1John 1:8.
Please explain my doctrinal error, I do not hold a " I know it all attitude" and I am open for debate on any doctrine, but not easy shaken or moved.

LOVE in CHRIST tom

1Co 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
2Co 8:19 And not that only, but who was also chosen of the churches to travel with us with this grace, which is administered by us to the glory of the same Lord, and declaration of your ready mind:
Php 2:2 Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.
Php 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
Php 4:2 I beseech Euodias, and beseech Syntyche, that they be of the same mind in the Lord.
1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

Could this possibly be the reason, "One mind in Christ Jesus.

And the revelation of Christ by the Holy Spirit, that His life is the most important concept we can agree on. This same mind that was in Christ, do we not have full access to it by revelation of the "another Comforter", bringing us to the things Christ has said and what He now says about His life in the believer, making son's of God by the Incorruptable Seed of the Father birthed in the believer.

Colossians 1:26-29 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

1 Peter 1:22-25 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

The Word Himself in us. John 1:1-5 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

But now we comprehend; John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Colossians 1:27-28 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

The whole God Head makes His abode with and in us.

Doing Gods Plan from before the foundation of the world. Ephesians 1:3-10 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

In Christ: Phillip

brother Phillip , excelent post. anointed..

Waltern,

Perhaps you should consider your motives for that last post. Love?

the doctinal error , I most solemny assure, is not on my part . I do not Glory in being right about doctine , rather I am grieved that this damnable , heretical doctrine , of a sinful substance given to us by adams first sin and that this is our nature handed down to us, by adams offence, and that this is the reason why we sin , because our nature's are sinful !!! this is absurd . Many professors of religion have held to this view, and i would rather that the many professors be right, as opposed to being wrong, and misleading , in their assumptions of religion and of our natures and relations in them. Many professors of religion have taken 1 john 1:8 and made it to mean literally , that if, a Christian says he has no sin , He is lying and the love of God is not in Him. they have grabbed this verse and used it to reinforce their assumption of a sinful constitution always in us, in some substance inherited by , or through , adams fall. All the scriptures which speak of sin and the conection of it to the flesh are not implying or saying that we always have sin because we still have a physical body.. Sin comes ONLY THROUGH TEMPTATION , when we give in, and yield to temptation we sin. Sin never comes through our flesh by way of some unavoidable, inherited sin nature our bodies always carry . I am not wrong here and this can be discussed thoroughly and at lenght. Sound reason, and the scriptures will prove this to be so . when the scriptures are taken as a whole . There are two kinds of effects of Sin, one is physical,, and the other is Moral.. the levitical law respected the physical and showed us the hatred [ emnity ] between us and God. this physical law was done away with through the FLESH of JESUS .. Now , I am not saying that the law did not do Good , it did, but it did not make anyone righteous [ perfect ]. the physical always points to the Spiritual .. the law was mankinds schoolmaster pointing us to Christ. Now the new law of Love in Christ Jesus set us free from the law of Sin and death.. This law of sin and death is not a physical substance we have no choice in having. We do not go astray and sin from early in childhood because we have a substance of sin in our flesh, an inherited sin nature. We Sin because the fall of adam brought in a great and damnable world of twisted thoughts , that came from Temptation, eve was tempted to know the knowledge of good and evil ..and went her own way and sought out something God had forbidden . Then of coarse, Temptation came to adam through eve and He went the God forbidden way also. Sin is a transgression of the law ,it is never an inherited substantive nature . Again the reason i post on here is because so much that seems to be believed and implied, by some of you ,is that you think that sin is in our natures and ,therefore, we are always predisposed to sin , or have sin ,in some form , wether accidentally , unknowingly , or intentionally, and never be completely free from it till we get rid of these earthly bodies that carry sin. this is the lie , and the unreasonable , unscriptural assumption , that needs to be seen for what it is and should not be held as truth by Christians any longer.. God bless you richly !! Now may the God of peace sanctify you wholly , and that your spirits , souls, and bodies, be preserved blameless unto His appearing .. ... and FAITHFUL IS HE WHO WILL DO IT !! 1 thess.5:21-24. Clint. one last thing here , the atonement is a covering , that potects us from what is outside of us, which is all the evils and temptations and occasions of unlawful transgression of the law.

Hi Clint,

I have a few questions I was wondering if you could answer for me if you get a chance.

1) What did Christ accomplish on the cross - what actually happened?

2) When someone places their faith in Christ, what happens? Is Christ's righteousness imputed to them so that they are now viewed as righteous in God's sight?

With care in Christ,
Taylor

Great questions , taylor . I believe that you have studied scripture. I can tell this from the few posts of yours , i have read .. Christ satisfied the justice of God by dying for us, Christ the innocent, offered Himself, to bear the God inflicted penalty of Sin, which is death,an innocent life, for the guilty sinful race of mankind . So christ , in satisfying Gods claim and penalty of sin, can secure to Himself, through His great Love , a people that would gladly except his sacrifice and follow Him and His example and die to themselves daily and become alive to God, [thus be born again ] , through the same power that raised Christ from the dead . now from my knowledge that i now have, i know not the meaning of imputed, but the two becoming one , i do know , and that this new birth from above , is a marraige . so all that my new creation Spirit of Christ [ my husband ]has , my soul can have . What ever my soul takes in will pervade through my whole being and out of my body. . I am the Righteousness of God , as much as my soul [ the wife ] so desires and yields to the Spirit of Christ . If this is Christs way of imputing His righteousness in me , then the answer is yes to Christs righteousness being imputed to all who are born again from above. now walking this righteousness out comes as we learn of the leading of the Husband and our soul,[ the wife ] following everywhere He, the husband leads. Now our part in righteousness is the Following [ always abiding ] His part is the ever leading and keeping us , in Himself, and into Gods very presence . Hope you know what i am trying to say here, God bless you taylor . Get to go attend to my wife now .. have a blessed evening ,, Clint

Hi Clint,

So, when were you actually counted as righteous before God? When you believed?

Also, were you counted as righteous before God because Christ made it possible for you to obey God? In summary, are we justified by following in the example of Christ and living a holy life?

With care in Christ,
Taylor

Clintstone,

If we do not have a sinful nature, why did Christ die?

You mentioned through Adam and Eve came temptation. This is false and I'll quickly explain. Temptation came before Adam and Eve, through Satan. Eve wasn't the tempter, Satan was. So if Eve isn't the tempter, then temptation did not come through her. She was tempted and sinned, therefore sin came through her, as with Adam.

Temptation in and of itself is no bad thing. It is a test of purity.

Sin is a bad thing, however, as it makes us impure and removes us from the holiness the Lord requires for us to be present in His sight, since He is holy.

In Him,
Candy

i have re-read romans chapter 4 this evening . the words imputed, impute , reckon , and counted , are all the same word in the original greek . This being so really makes it so easy to read this chapter and to interchange these 3 words all the different ways possible to do so. I first looked up impute and found itmeaning to be reckoned and counted , so , i thought that these words might just all be the same greek word , and sure enough they are ..we are counted righteous when we believe Christ , we are justified because Christ took our place and died for us. Now , about the being able part , I do not see from scripture where Grace gives us ability to obey God, i believe the doctrine of gracious ability to be false doctrine , also. I know this is a big one too . there are two big words when we believe on , and in Christ, and they are " I CAN " ... paul said " I CAN do all things through Christ which strenghtens me " grace shows us what we can do , grace is the recieving of sight of what we could of been doing all along had we not been blind . praying for grace is the same as praying for vision of Christ and His offices that we individually can walk in , For the supply, and building up of His body .Now if we are unable to obey God before grace comes , why are we guilty before Grace comes to us ? Also grace , may Have stricken paul blind for three days so He could see just how blind he was,too the vision of Christ , even though he was a profound biblical scholar,. The workings of God upon us and in us are so high and wonderful , seems that us and Him move together at the same time. I tell mos tpeople ,I know that ,," Be thou my vision " is one of my favorite songs. We deem ourselves encapable of obeying God wholly, and Christ comes and says yes you can. paul , i believe lived Christ perfectly , to live, for him, was Christ. Paul told those in his day to follow him , his example , because his example would lead them to God Himself and into His peace.. I love to tell the story of unseen things above , of Jesus and His Glory , of Jesus and His love... I'll praise Him forevermore for giving me sight, just to see Him... and the I can ... of doing all i do Through Him .

Quote From Clintstone
"rather I am grieved that this damnable , heretical doctrine , of a sinful substance given to us by adams first sin and that this is our nature handed down to us, by adams offence, and that this is the reason why we sin , because our nature's are sinful !!! this is absurd ."
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I believe that we were born with a "sinful nature or a fallen nature or spiritual blindness" Whatever you like to call it. eph2:3niv
rom8:3-4niv
Where I differ from others is I believe the sinful nature, was crucified with Christ, rendering it powerless, the problem is Satan likes to lie kill and destroy, and goes to great length, to lie to us about our old nature, and keep us conscience of sin rather than our place in Christ. rom6:6niv rom7:4-5niv rom7:6niv heb12:1-2niv heb12:2-4niv

John G. Lake, wigglesworth, Andrew Murray, and many others, had a similar line of thinking.

LOVE IN CHRIST tom

what i believe that i said and meant to say is that eve was tempted first, and we all know by who, then eve was who the temptation came to adam by .

thank you tom for your posts i am i big admirer of lake , wigglesworth ,andrew murray. I have read much of their writtings , murraays book " the holiest of all" and " prayer " are excellent . I highly recommend all of us learning john G. lakes and wigglesworth secret to having the power of God in such high demonstration , and that showed them the Mysteries hidden in Christ before the foundation of the world.. Thier secret is that they PRAYED in toungues a lot ,and they understood this gift, and function of God in it, too them . I am becoming more aware of what beliefs are held by people , and yet this is not my mainsource of input. I have had this building in me for twenty years and i keep coming back to it by Gods leading, . Sin is not handed to us by nature. yes we have an old man that died , and was crucified with Christ , and in abiding in Christ we learn by His spirit how the mortification of our flesh takes place. I love what you say of satan going to great lenghts to lie kill and destroy. Jesus had the same flesh and bone body we have , did he not? He had all the appetites, passions, desires,and propensities, which are constitutional and entirely involuntary . Christ possessed them , or he was not a man, nor , in any proper sence a human being. scripture says that Jesus was in all points temted as we are and never sinned . He was able to be tempted as wea are because he took on this FLESH the same exact one we have before we are born again!! .. Oh i am so glad that my sin is is all my fault and that it is all on me and not on some inherited nature that i got from something resident inside me that i had no say in . Sin came to me by way of temptation, and my appetites and passions and desires and propensities , are not sinful, though they are the occasions of sin. Theu are an temptation to the will to seek their unlawful indulgence. When thes lusts or appetites are spoken of as the " passions of sin, " or as , " sinful lusts or passions" it is not because they are sinful in themselves, but because they are the occasions of sin. our Flesh , meaning its passions , appetites , propensities, desires are the occassions of sin . A moral agent is responsible for his emotions, desires, etc. , so far as they are under the direct or indirect control of his will , and no further. He is always responsible for the manner in which he gratifies them. If he indulges them in accordance with the law of God, he does right . If he makes their gratification his end, he sins. It should be remembered , that the physical depravity of our race has much to do with our moral depravity. a diseased physical system renders the appetites , passions, tempers and propensities more clamorous and despotic in their demands, and of course constantly urging to selfishness , confirms and strenghtens it. It should be remembered that physical depravity has no moral character in and of itself. But yet it is a sourse of fierce temptation to selfishness. the Human sensibility is , manifestly, deeply physically depraved [crooked,bent ] and as sin consists in Commiting the Will to the Gratification of the sensibility, itphysical depravity will mightily strengthen moral depravity. Moral depravity [ crookedness] is then universaly owing to temptation. That is , the soul is tempted to self indulgence , and yields to the temptation , and this yielding , and not the temptation , is sin or moral depravity . This is the way Adam and eve became morally depraved . They were tempted, even by an undepraved appetite, to prohibited indulgence and were overcome . This is the way that every man comes to moral depravity [ SIN ] not by birth not by nature not through posterity of adam. a child can be born unhealthy [ sick ], physically depraved ,but this is not Sin , nor is it being born to sin, or , in sin .. I believe that if i sat and talked this over with , murray , lake and wigglesworth , they would agree with this view .. In eph.2:3 cannot , consistently with natural justice ,be understood to mean , that we are exspossed to the wrath of God on account of our nature .It is a monstrous and blasphemous dogma , that a Holy God is angry with any creature for possessing a nature with which he is sent into being without his knowledge or consent . The bible everywhere represents God as being angry with men for their wicked deeds , and not for their nature. It is common to speak of the first state man finds himself to be in as his natural state, as opposed to a changed state . thus we speak of sinners as in a natural state, as opposed to a regenerate state, and a state of grace . By this we do not mean that they have a nature sinful in itself . Total moral depravity is the state that follows , and results from their first birth , and is in this sense natural , and in thisense alone , can it be truely said that they are " by nature children of wrath . " Against the use that is made of this text , and all this class of texts , may be arrayed the whole scope of scripture , that represents man as to blame, and to be judged and punished only for His deeds. The subject matter of discourse in these texts is such as to demand that we should understand then as NOT implying , or asserting , that sin is an essential part of our nature. I have quoted much from Finneys theology , He exsplains it well and He was one of americas greatest evangelists and teachers . This Is my view and I do not see it changing soon , I have studied it much throughout my walk with God . My sin is my responsibility and i can live without it completely, Because Christ did , so can I because of His death, burial and ressurection . Having the mind of Christ , or the same mind as Christ , means simply to Love God and obey Him as Christ did . Through Christ ALL people can do this , and we are commanded , By God , to do so . God commands this of us because this secures the most good for Him and for us and for all the universe, and all the rest of creation is waiting and groaning for the manifestation of the sons of God , which are those who choose to do His command ..

Romans 5:12-21 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Gaebelein's Annoted Bible
Romans 5:12

4. In Christ.
The Sanctification of the Believer;
his Deliverance from Sin and the Law;
Children and Heirs.
Chapter 5:12-8.

CHAPTER 5:12-21

1. Sin and Death Through the First Adam. 12-14.
2. In Adam by Nature; in Christ Through Grace. 15-21.
So far the subject of this Epistle has been our sins and how God has dealt with them in the Cross of Christ. The guilt and penalty of the sins of the believer are forever gone. With this section the question of sin itself is taken up and we learn how the justified believer is also sanctified in Christ and as such delivered from the dominion of sin and from the law. Furthermore we learn it also includes that believers are children and heirs of God. To distinguish between sins and sin is important. Sin is that evil principle in us, as fallen creatures, and sins are the fruits which spring from the evil root in us. Sin, the old nature, and how God deals with it in virtue of the redemption of Jesus Christ, is now, first of all, revealed. What we were in Adam and what we are through grace in Christ, how as identified with Christ we may be delivered from the power of indwelling sin, are truths unknown to many believers. Without this knowledge a true Christian experience, such which a believer should constantly enjoy, is impossible. One of the chief reasons why true believers are carried about with divers and strange doctrines, is the ignorance of these great facts of our redemption in Christ as unfolded in this part of Romans. How many others are constantly striving and struggling to lead a spiritual life and fail in it because they know not the great principles of sanctification and deliverance in Christ.

Verses 12-14.--"Wherefore as by one man sin entered into the world, and by sin death and thus death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." By one man, the first Adam, sin entered into the world (not sins, but sin). And death followed, which is physical death. "Dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return," and this death has passed upon the race because of sin. The margin of the authorized version contains a statement which is responsible for a very unscriptural teaching. The margin states "in whom all have sinned"; upon this it has been taught that the guilt of Adam has been imputed to all. This is not correct. We are not responsible for the sin of Adam nor are we held responsible by God for a sinful nature; we are responsible for the outworking of that nature, that is for our own sins. The wicked dead, those whose sins were not taken away, because they believed not, will not be judged for having had a sinful nature, but solely according to their works (Re 20:12). Death comes upon us on account of our sins, as it is stated in this verse "death passed upon all men for that all have sinned.

"For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law; nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of Him to come." This looks difficult, but it is simple after all. The law was given by Moses; from Adam to Moses there was no law, men were left to conscience, by which they knew good and evil. But death reigned nevertheless from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression. Adam had a commandment which he transgressed, inasmuch as there was no law till Moses, the generations could not sin after the similitude of Adam's transgression. Sin is lawlessness and not as the faulty translation of 1Jo 3:4 states, "sin is the transgression of the law." However, sin becomes transgression when there is a law. As there was no law from Adam to Moses, sin was therefore not imputed as transgression. But as they all sinned, death reigned and there is also judgment afterwards for them. The last sentence of verse 14 "who is the figure of Him that was to come" is the important statement which is fully developed in the verses which follow and upon which the whole argument rests.

Verses 15-21.--The first Adam is the type of the last, Adam, the Lord Jesus Christ. The same comparison is also found in 1Co 15 "For as all in Adam die, even so all in Christ shall be made alive" (verse 22,). This passage has often been used by those who teach the ultimate, universal salvation of the whole race. It has nothing whatever to do with salvation from the penalty of sin, but it applies to the resurrection of the bodies of the redeemed. Here in Romans the contrast is of a different nature. Adam and Christ are viewed as two heads, having each his offspring to whom they communicate something. The first Adam bestows upon his offspring the results of his sin; Christ, the last Adam,* bestows upon those who belong to Him, by personal faith in Him, the blessed consequences of His great work. (Christ is never called the second Adam, but the last Adam, as there will not be another after Him.) A sinful nature and physical death is what we have as the children of the first Adam. In Christ the believer receives a sinless nature, eternal life and glory. In this sense Adam is the figure of Him to come.

The first sentence of verses 15 and 16 is best put in the form of a question. This helps much in understanding this deep portion of the Epistle. "But shall not the free gift be as the offence?" By the offence of Adam the many died, his offspring has been affected by his Offence. In like manner the grace of God and the gift of Grace, which is by the other Adam, Jesus Christ abounds also to the many. The question asked must therefore be answered in the affirmative. This and the following verses have also been used to teach that there is universal salvation. But it does not mean that. The condition "faith in Christ" must not be lost sight of. We are all in the first Adam by the natural birth; identification with the second Man is only possible by the new birth and that takes Place when a sinner believes on Christ and in His finished work. Those who do not believe are in Adam and are dead in trespasses and sins. "And shall not as by one that has sinned be the gift? For the judgment was of one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification" (verse 16). The sins committed are here in view. Our sin brought judgment. The free gift of justification, on account of Christ's atoning sacrifice, is blessedly sufficient to deliver from the guilt of many offences. "For if by the offence of one death reigned by the one; much more shall those who receive the abundance of grace, and Of the free gift of righteousness, reign in life by the one, Jesus Christ" (verse 17). The Previous verse spoke of the guilt of sins, which rests upon all those who are in Adam and this guilt is met in Christ by justification. In verse 17 death which reigns in the first man is met by reign of life in Jesus Christ. Those who believe on Him have life now and are delivered from the reign of death. When He comes, the bodies of His Saints will be raised in incorruption and we who remain shall be changed in a moment and be caught up into His Presence without dying. Verse 18 in the Authorized version is poorly translated and misleading. "So then as it was by one offence towards all men to condemnation, so by one righteousness towards all men to justification of life." This blessed contrast between Adam and Christ is made again in verse 19. "For as indeed by the disobedience of the one man (Adam) the many have been constituted sinners, so also by the obedience of the one the many shall be constituted righteous." Here it is the contrast between Adam's disobedience and Christ's obedience. And the obedience of Christ which constitutes all who believe on Him righteous, is not His obedient life, but His obedience in the death of the cross. "But law came in in order that the offence might abound; but where sin abounded grace overabounded, in order that, even as sin has reigned in the power of death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Here for the first time a reason is given why God gave the law. The Epistle to the Galatians will bring the subject of Law and Grace more fully to our attention. Law came in that the offence might abound; it has constituted man a transgressor and in this sense the offence abounds. But grace overabounds. It deals with the transgressions and reigns through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Wonderful and preciously deep contrast! In Adam sin. condemnation and death. In Christ righteousness, justification and eternal life; yea much more, eternal glory. In Adam we have his constitution; in Christ we possess through grace His life and glory.

Praise God, In Christ: Phillip

this interpretation and explaination, of these passages of scripture is not right # 2 vs 15-21 and what the writter says there is not right at all .. sins are not the result of sin, in the sense that sin is a part of our nature, evil root, given us by adam ,therefore we sin, because the evil root of sin is in us .WE do not have an evil principle in us , that is sin. we were not born with indwelling sin, we were born into a world effected by sin and we were born into a body effected by the results of sin but we were not born into Sin.

I guess, before we continue, we need to define, the difference between, sin, and the fruit, or acts of sin. The fruit is our transgression done in the mind and then the flesh. Sin itself is unbelief in Christ, which we were born with, and is the only thing that kept us from salvation. The acts of sin are just proof that we haven't believed, or have not fully yet understood the truth. John16:8-10niv

Love in CHRIST tom

Why must these bodies be changed? If we are not sinners because of sin, why don't we keep these flesh bodies and why must there be resurrection?

Ro 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Where is sin?

Ro 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Free from what?

Ro 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Where is sin?

Ro 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

What is dead because of sin?

Ro 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

By the Christ in us, what are we not allow to reign in our mortal bodies?

Ro 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

What does the law bring to life?

Ro 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

What works death in all men?

Ro 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Where does sin dwell?

Ro 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Where does sin dwell?

This is what Christ died for, once, to take away sin in our mortal bodies, that we might live unto God.

So we cannot sin in Spirit, for that is Christ, we are learning to not sin in our soul, by the mind of Christ, taught by the Holy Spirit and we will be set free from this body of sin when resurrection life comes to these mortal bodies and they will rise in newness of life and what, we don't know, but they will be just like His glorious sinless body.

Don't make the Cross of Christ to no avail, that He had no need of dying for sin, for that is what we were and are without Him.

In Christ: Phillip

Quote from Walter
To Thomasm:

You have stated that the following men of God share your view about the "Sin Nature" of man:

Smith Wigglesworth & Andrew Murray
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You haven't told me what is wrong with my sin nature doctrine yet.
It's seems that any one who doesn't agree with you is a false teacher or deceived, I could go to great length to defend John G Lake, because as I was reading your post, I noticed left out portions, of what he said that, totally contradict your claims, but it wouldn't make a bit of difference, as you have all ready judged him, and I doubt that you will change your mind. May God be the JUDGE.

As for Andrew Murray the article you posted is close to what I believe. Smith Wigglesworth will be forth coming.

Love in Christ tom
[edit]
p.s. I apologise for allowing myself to get dragged off the subject of this post. 1John1:8
God Bless tom

To Walter:
I in no way, said or am saying that we should not judge, the teachings or doctrines of others. I do not agree with every thing Lake, Wigglesworth ,or Murray wrote, they lived in the light that they had, and I praise God for the good revelation, and toss out the bad, but because they weren't perfect in knowlegde, doesn't mean I toss the whole thing out. I do agree that Lake had some strange teachings, but I wouldn't go so far as to call him a fraud. I am just glad they didn't have a newspaper in Peter, Paul and John's day I'm sure there were many bad reports. By the way Lake never claimed that every one he prayed for was healed, so I'm sure there are many accounts of people who didn't get healed.

Love in Christ tom
ps Lets not beat this thing to death.
We can agree to disagree on Lake.
The question I asked was whats wrong with my doctrine, I can't go back and talk to the dead, so let's move on to better things.

physical [ crookedness] depravity. is not sin nor the cause of it. we are born , more or less physically depraved . Moral depravity , comes through transgression of the law, noone has ever been born morally depraved which is SIN , physical depravity is the last thing we will get rid of when we recieve our Glorified bodies .. God never ever views , nor teaches us that physical depravity, IS sin in and of itself , which we have no choice in having , and which is only the result of Sin, If we had no physical crookedness we would never wear out and die,,, Men first lived a lot longer but as more moral depravity , sin , come to be the norm in mans choices , he physically died sooner .If we come to understand the distinction the bible makes between Sin , moral depravity. and the results of sin , physical depravity, then a lot of these texts that speak of these issues would not be representing sinful nature, evil bent , substance , liquid , spirit , Etc, in the sense of being SIN , yet they would be viewed in the right place of being the RESULT of Sin... Jesus could heal all manor of the results of sin , sickness , disease , issues of blood , blindness, and do this without requiring anyone to repent before doing so a child born with blindness is not a sinful being with a sinful substance. When the bible represents us as yielding to the nature of our flesh , we are only yielding to the world , and its many temptations , our undeveloped [In the Gospel of Christ , without hope , unregenerate spirit ] physically depraved flesh, in this state, which is only the results of sin and not sin, finds plenty of occasions , through temptation only , to sin . Sin is not a substance , a liquid , a spirit , a seed , or speck , jot or tittle , which we are born with ,or given through sperm or during any of the gestation process in the womb .. Sin is not the same thing as our defiled , physically depraved bodies . I have about exhuasted this , there is many scriptures that become so easy to see how that our natures and relations to ourselves , God , and to man , are still of the devine order and that , this devine order is so attainable in all our relationships with God , ourselves and man and all the rest of Gods creation . Redeemed , how I love top proclaim it , redeemed by the Blood of the lamb , redeemed through His infintie mercy , His child and forever I am,, thank you all so much for being patient with me and enduring my unclear communications in what i am trying to convey. my typing is terrible and my punctuation probably is to , God Bless you all and may you ever rejoice in Jesus Christ ,, Clint

tom , all my posts here have been aimed with one intent , and that is the defining between Sin , and the results . WE shall know the truth and the truth shall make us free ,, this is so Great Salvation . OH I am so glad that i have a triumphant shout in my soul , For i am saved and God inhabits me.. God bless you richly and make all grace abound to you and your family ,,

Walter{quote}
Your doctrine is error. We are to repent and believe to be saved, and then we are to repent and believe, to repent and believe, to repent and believe our entire life times on this earth, once we have been saved. Repenting & believing is not a one time occurence, it is a continuous occurence to the true Child of God.
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I have said nothing about not having to repent and believe to be save. To the contrary I said[quote}

{The cure is Jesus, when you see the blood stained hands, feet, and side, and realise that he bore it all, you can not help falling in Love with Him, and turning from ungodliness to Our Risen Lord, who has Grace and Mercy for all who turn to Him.}

And again I said{quote}

{not at all saying we cannot sin or will not sin, or that we do not have to confess our sin, when we do fall, so that our conscience remains clean.}

I believe turning away from ungodliness to our Risen Lord is repentance, and confessing our sins when we fall, as an on going repentance. I have never stated that I live in "sinless perfection" as you have {said I }stated, but I see a place in Christ that is so far above what I know, and I have my eyes focused on Him.

Love in Christ tom
Ps I thought we were talking about the sinful nature, not the salvation message, as 1John1:8 is speaking to the saved, not the lost.
edit added {said I}

Thomas , I want to commend you for your sincerity and good spirit, throughout this thred . If our eyes be single , our whole bodies shall be full of light !! God Bless you richly .. Clint

I John tells what the character of a christian is in absolutes, not in opinions or conjecture. In terms that leaves no doubts. This is what a genuine christian is from the word of God. You may test yourself by them. That is the reason it was giving to us by God.