John Piper Testing Wilkerson's Message

[url=http://www.desiringgod.org/Blog/1670_testing_david_wilkersons_prophecy/]Testing David Wilkerson's Message[/url]

Testing David Wilkerson’s Prophecy
March 9, 2009 | By: John Piper
Category: Commentary

The Bible says, “Do not despise prophecies, but test everything; hold fast what is good” (1 Thessalonians 5:20-21).

David Wilkerson will cause a good many hearts to pound faster with his pronouncement that “AN EARTH-SHATTERING CALAMITY IS ABOUT TO HAPPEN.” New Yorkers especially will swallow hard: “It will engulf the whole megaplex, including areas of New Jersey and Connecticut.”

What shall we make of this? The part that depends on the Bible we should take with absolute seriousness. You don’t need to have special revelation to know that the rejection of Jesus Christ as Lord is the norm in America. Therefore, we stand under the judgment of God and it is only a matter of time till the present judgments (Romans 1:18-32) give way to spiritual awakening or punitive calamities (2 Thessalonians 1:6-8).

But the part of the prophecy that goes beyond what the Bible says, we measure by biblical standards. Two things give me pause in Wilkerson’s extra-biblical specifics.

First, it does not resonate with my spirit when he claims that God told him to “lay in store a thirty-day supply of non-perishable food, toiletries and other essentials” because when disaster comes “grocery stores are emptied in an hour.” God might have said this. But it doesn’t smell authentic to me. Too prudential. Too reminiscent of the embarrassing Y2K excesses.

Second, my confidence level drops when the Scriptures are not handled carefully. Wilkerson says, one way we can respond is: “As David says, ‘He fixed his eyes on the Lord on his throne in heaven—his eyes beholding, his eyelids testing the sons of men’” (Psalm 11:4).

This does not have the feel of authority to me because what Psalm 11:4 really says is: “The Lord is in his holy temple; the Lord’s throne is in heaven; his eyes see, his eyelids test the children of man.”

So my take on this prophetic word is that the scare will probably do good for a lot of people. The Bible is a scary book. And the future that is coming on unbelievers is scary beyond anything any preacher could conjure up.

But my own effort to be discerning says: Stick with the Bible, David. It is scary enough. And it is absolutely true. And your credibility will never fall.

First, it does not resonate with my spirit when he claims that God told him to “lay in store a thirty-day supply of non-perishable food, toiletries and other essentials” because when disaster comes “grocery stores are emptied in an hour.” God might have said this. But it doesn’t smell authentic to me. Too prudential. Too reminiscent of the embarrassing Y2K excesses.

I don't really know if this was meant to be prophetic or just good and wise advice. We live and have grown up in America at a unique time when our 'storehouse' [i]is[/i] the local supermarket. And working in one I can tell you that it is an unsound foundation to say the least. If something of a national crisis happens it would not take long for the shelves to empty and the transportation system of new supplies could easily become overburdened.

When I was a child, my great grandmother always kept a ready supply on hand of canned food and food that she had raised in her garden. (She had lived through the great depression btw.) It was a common chore for me to walk up the street to 'Grannies' house to get a jar of stewed tomatoes or some other vegetable for my mom to cook.

Without being an alarmist, stocking up on non-perishable foods sounds like a good practice to get in the habbit of in these times. After all the wise man sees the trouble in the way and prepares, the fool goes on and is punished.

Blessings,
Jeremy Hulsey

I got saved at Times Square Church right before 9/11. I walked into something unusual.

I never heard of David Wilkerson but he was at the pulpit saying, "We don't know what's going on but we feel lead to shut down all ministry events, meetings, outreaches, etc. and just come together every single night and pray. A visitation from the Holy Ghost." (my paraphrase)

I didn't know what was going on except that they opened the church every night of the week and the men were on there face crying because something was coming to the city.

3 weeks later 9/11 hit. They knew then and they now! God always warns his people. I was there.

I don't really know if this was meant to be prophetic or just good and wise advice

My only reason for posting this was to give another point of view. I am certainly not saying Wilkerson is unbiblical (just for the record :)

It is a subject for prayer and wise counsel, that's for sure.

In Him, Chanin

First, it does not resonate with my spirit when he claims that God told him to “lay in store a thirty-day supply of non-perishable food, toiletries and other essentials” because when disaster comes “grocery stores are emptied in an hour.” God might have said this. But it doesn’t smell authentic to me. Too prudential.

"Let Pharoah take action to appoint overseers in charge of the land, and let him exact a fifth of the produce of the land of Egypt...then gather all the food of the good years and store up the grain in the cities under Pharoah's authority...let the food become as a reserve for the land of seven years of famine.

Then Pharoah said, "Can we find a man like this, in whom is the spirit of God?' So Pharoah said to Joseph, 'Since God has informed you of all this, there is no one so discerning and wise as you are.'" (Genesis 41:34-39)

I'm with you Paul, I think an ounce of prevention could be worth a pound of cure.

I understand practical and Biblically informed behavior. Nonetheless, I was very sorry to find NO call to repentance or intercession in David Wilkerson's recent message. Repentance and prayer would seem a first response to such “news.” Clean hands follow repentance.

I have found the call (through Crown Ministries) to believers regarding our behavior in America, their assessment of various scenarios, and their consistently Biblical and practical advice appropriate and balanced. They made a strong Biblical call for national repentance and prayer on 9/24/08.

I posted this summary on SI. [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=25406&forum=48 ]Link is here[/url], on 9/30 at 14:32.

[b]Oh to hear from Church leaders[/b] the call to prayer 2 Kings 6:27 “And he said, 'If the Lord do not help thee, whence shall I help thee,'" and to repentance.

As I am studying the books of Moses during these days, several thing stand out. The response of Moses and Aaron to the pending destruction of the people was “falling on their faces” and interceding (Numbers 16:45 is just one example from my reading for this week). As they learned after the events of the spies (Numbers 14), acknowledging sin and obeying rather than coming up with their own way of responding to judgment/changing things is the way to go.

Maybe a message on repentance will follow. In addition, the events as described are limited in area and in duration (one month?). This will afford many believers the opportunity to prepare help for others. I have heard that local stores no longer rent large warehouses to store products but use re-stock deliveries to keep a one month supply on hand. That is true with my local grocery store on the West Coast. If everyone in one area bought a one month supply of food that would empty shelves itself.

I have kind of read through the different posts and different opinions and thoughts. It is good I believe to sharpen each other with counsel and keep focused on our deliverer. If there is one thing that God seems to have shown me is that to say God will 'always'or God will 'never' in regards to His actions can be very embarrassing. I think that this thread has shown more than the others a balance that is biblical and not compromising or double minded. We bought ten gallons of water for Y2K because if our well doesn't have electricity we don't have water. I am in country in Ohio and not NYC so the word of God to me "could" be different without God being different. I believe that to hoard supplies without sharing would be selfish. People will not necessarily be starving to death within 30 days and it would be right to share. I think of Elijah and the widow with oil or times I've heard of God making bags of grain last miraculously in times of famine for God's people. They weren't necessarily passing the provisions out although the famine hit everyone in their area. When Joseph supplied food for his family back home it was for his family and not for all the inhabitants of the land. As I was mulling the urgent message over after it was posted, two things came to mind. David Wilkerson is in my mind no doubt a Godly man. I don't listen to him as much any more as he seems to be more faltering, but he is sober and I don't think he would do something like this on a whim or lightly. Second is that God has been showing us about eating raw including sprouting seeds and grains. We were at whole Foods and I was buying some of these seeds when it hit me, with a little water, you could have a modest food supply with not a lot of investment and these things are cheaper by pound than by ounce. Again God will supply provisions for His people but it isn't always how we have pictured. I do pray that we continue to seek His face and the balance of 2 Chron 7:14 and He will be faithful to heal our land, even if through calamity. Peace to all, Barry

I think you bring up a good point. In the local churches the word has been circulating that one day the local congregations may have to gather inorder to eat at least a couple of full meals a week. It still needs to mentioned that in the judgements listed in Revelation Rev 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine. This can be telling, run away inflation but not everything will be touched.

2009/3/10 10:01
I have kind of read through the different posts and different opinions and thoughts. It is good I believe to sharpen each other with counsel and keep focused on our deliverer.

I have wondered whether to join this conversation but this seemed to be an encouragement to do so. I believe David Wilkerson is a brave and godly man, I also believe John Piper is a brave and godly man. I respect them both and am intimidated by neither. I wonder if folks have heard of "Intrusion Ethics"? I think it is a term which has come from modern Reformed teachers but I have my own spin on it and thought I would share it here.

I am part way through a book that I am writing and this is an excerpt from one of the chapters. Normally I never read posts as long as this one will be but tell me what you think about this...

[color=0033FF]"Let me introduce you to the idea of ‘Intrusion Ethics’. ‘Oh help’ I hear you cry! Most big ideas are much simpler than they sound. Why did God allow his covenant to be constantly disregarded and the nation of Israel to become more and more pagan. We are raising a question here that surfaces in the thoughts of anyone who takes the Bible seriously or looks at the world in which we live; why doesn’t God do something? Long before this time God had promised the land of Canaan to Abraham but gave an interesting reason as to why Abraham would not immediately possess the land. Apparently other events in other peoples were part of God synchronising of events; But in the fourth generation they shall return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.” Gen 15:16. Abraham’s descendants’ possession of the land would be synchronised with God’s judgements upon the inhabitants of Canaan. Our refusal to bring our lives into line with God’s pattern will have consequences; this is an unchanging fact of revelation. And yet so many cruel dictators have died in comfort in their beds and appear to have escaped God’s judgements. How can we understand this? Why did God not stop Hitler or Stalin or Idi Amin with an instant judgement?

Paul gives us one answer to this puzzling question in Romans; Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, Rom 9:21-23. In one sense that is an end of the matter. God is God and he will do want he wills. “Intrusion Ethics” is not arguing with Paul’s Spirit inspired words in Romans, but there is an old question that an old ‘friend of God’ once asked; Far be it from You to do such a thing as this, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous should be as the wicked; far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? Gen 18:25. There follows a fascinating conversation between God and his friend which we do not have time to pursue other than to remark that this was a conversation between friends and not a bartering encounter in a bazaar.

In the setting of the Canaanites it seems that God was ever reluctant to visit his judgement on the atrocities that were performed there masquerading as religion. While there is the slightest possibility of repentance he hold back his wrath even though he knows that they will not change. There is a wonderful stastement about the nature of God’s love in the gospel according to John; …when Jesus knew that His hour had come that He should depart from this world to the Father, having loved His own who were in the world, He loved them to the end. And supper being ended, the devil having already put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, to betray Him, Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into His hands, and that He had come from God and was going to God, rose from supper and laid aside His garments, took a towel and girded Himself. John 13:1-4. One of those whose feet he washed, having loved him to the end, was Judas Iscariot. If God then is so reluctant to act in judgement why does he ever do so? This is where the idea of “Intrusion Ethics” come in. At best it is a ‘best fit’ answer to the question, it is not the last word on the subject.

“Intrusion Ethics” makes a very clear distinction between the age in which we live in which God allows us to benefit from ‘Common Grace’ and the coming age of the ‘Consummation’ or final judgement. The fact that we are still alive in spite of our sinfulness is due to God’s ‘common grace’ towards our race. Even those who have not come into God’s favour through Christ are benefiting from this time of ‘common grace’. Even though we deserve judgement and instant retribution for our sin we are still here because of God’s unmerited love towards us, His grace. Why? Well Peter expresses it like this; The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2Pet 3:9. There is however another era that is on its way, and here we return to Paul; He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead. Acts 17:31.

So, if God is waiting for ‘another day’ why does he ever bring judgement now? These judgements are ‘intrusions’ of the ‘ethics’ of the coming age of Consummation into our days of Common Grace, or so the idea “Intrusion Ethics” states it. Some of God’s judgements which ‘intrude’ into this era of common grace are glimpses of a future day. They are ‘anticipations’ of the era of Consummation. One day this will be the norm and not the exception. These judgements then are examples of another day and a constant warning that the day of the Consummation and Final Judgement will arrive. They serve as rare examples of God’s character in his attitude to sin and the sinner, an attitude that will be revealed in all its awesome fulness on a coming day. They are Judgement Day in miniature and very rare. Isaiah declares one of these ‘out of the ordinary’ periods of coming judgement; For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act. Is 28:21 KJV.

Perhaps we should add a word of caution. We need to be very cautious in what we declare to be an act of God’s anticipatory judgement. It is folly to try to map specific sins to specific events although many Christians will attempt it. Notice in these verses the way in which the Lord refuses to link a specific sin with a ‘strange act’ but insists that the final day of judgement will surely come; Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. Luke 13:4-5."[/color]

The next question is do we dare make this connection between 'that sin' and 'this catastrophe'? I know the Bible writers do it but then they were verbally inspired.

I get a first run of this book? Thank you in advance.
Eccl says there is a time and season for all things under the sun,, and David fell in adultry at a time when Kings go to war, I sometimes feel as if what we see on earth is actually the results of what is happening in the heavens or that realm of the invisiable. In God's reconing with His servants over money>>1,3,5>>we always assume it means His saved children, blood bought, but thats not what it says, He called Nebuchadnezzar and many other pagans His servants, so what I see is the Lord taking back what actually belongs to Him. The earth is the Lord's and the fullness there of. As to the question of specific sins bringing specific judgements, I do believe that certain sins of the flesh bring specific judgements, but when you look at blanket judgements that take out entire cities or areas of society, it's usually provoked by relationship issues, injustice, oppression, etc...In America I believe we'll see judgement on our liberty because it has become such an idol, in the process of such those who were oppressors will become oppressed themselves by the very government they used with its systems to harm the innocent. The saint in all this needs to be sure they 're on the right side of the plumbline of righteousness because the warning in all ages has been that of Eze 33. But what about saints who die in the midst of these unusaul storms etc...? That's what we all really want to know but as you have stated above, Lk13:4-5 That becomes an individual matter of the heart and God forbid I/we should tred where angels fear to tred, as the saying goes.

I really appreciate the perspective from this excerpt you have posted and wish to add my "request" to Brother Darryl's, "me too, me too!" :-)

May we indeed, in fear and trembling before a most Holy God, be most hesitant to declare anything as fact, leaving room for His great mercy and grace to unfold our times which are all in His hand. I am reminded also of the earlier verses in Romans 9, particularly vs 15.

Thank you, again,

Lois

[u]Jimdied2sin[/u]: Surely many are more awake and watchful as the result of Brother David's message. Maybe he regularly preaches repentance and lifting clean hands in prayer to his congregation so that his congregation is repentant in addition to praying. It would be hard to be a preaching Brother and not preach repentance, though I don't hear teaching on what it is often. Although a believer”s first encounter with repentance is most remarkable, it seems to be more of a heart attitude than a once-in-a-life-time event. (I am no theologian.) When I listened to the Wilkerson clip Greg posted (Where are the praying men?), I heard “I don't want to be part of this,” rather than, “I have been part of this.” Maybe there is no difference. Prayer so easily follows repentance and forgiveness strengthens it. Brother David's message just lacked an encouragement to this which we all can easily add as a first response.

[u]Philologos[/u]: Interesting ideas that could be part of a useful framework. I also thought that God does make a connection [your “map”/”link”] between “that [u]repentance[/u]” and “this [u]withheld[/u] catastrophe” at times (ex. Nineveh). When the Kingdom of heaven is at hand, John and Jesus cried out “repent.” Of course your Luke 13: 4-5 passage is a great example. But then, maybe your book is not heading in the direction of repentance. The goodness of God leads to repentance and the knowledge of our peril, despite appearances, was effective in some times of revival.

Secondly, there are some major sin event-effect connections made: for example between the “high places,” Saul's act, touching the ark, the length of captivity etc. Maybe not the sort you are talking about?

Some church leaders responded to 9/11 and stock market events with prayer/calls for prayer. Few responded with repentance/calls for repentance. Many spoke comfort. Where is that book: The Life and Times of Repentance .

Edit/addition: Wilkerson's whole message “Hell Shaking Prayer” suggests it was an oversight that he did not encourage prayer and repentance for prayerlessness in his recent communication.

JoanM on 2009/3/10 20:54:56
Philologos: Interesting ideas that could be part of a useful framework. I also thought that God does make a connection [your “map”/”link”] between “that repentance” and “this withheld catastrophe” at times (ex. Nineveh). When the Kingdom of heaven is at hand, John and Jesus cried out “repent.” Of course your Luke 13: 4-5 passage is a great example. But then, maybe your book is not heading in the direction of repentance. The goodness of God leads to repentance and the knowledge of our peril, despite appearances, was effective in some times of revival.

Secondly, there are some major sin event-effect connections made: for example between the “high places,” Saul's act, touching the ark, the length of captivity etc. Maybe not the sort you are talking about?

The statement of Jeremiah is a universal axiom as far as I can see...

[color=0033FF] At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them. Jer 18:6-10 KJVS[/color]

While there is life there is hope. I see that of individuals there are times when the scripture says 'do not pray for him' but I am not aware of that ever being addressed to a nation.

I was first alerted to Dave Wilkerson's blog by a friend who asked 'what do you make of this?' I think an equally important question might be 'what do I do with this?' That is surely always the right response to a word which someone says has come from God.

I have to be honest and say to myself; 'do I believe this prediction?' and my honest answer is 'no'. So the next question is 'so you believe this will not happen?' and my answer to that also is 'no'. By 'believe' I mean active faith. Do I have active faith that this calamity will overtake New York? No I don't. Do I have active faith that this calamity will NOT overtake New York? No I don't.

Do I have opinions? Oh yes, by the truck load, but I try not to exercise faith in my 'opinions' and I certainly try not to exercise faith in other people's opinions.

So I am left with the question. "what does God expect me to do with this David Wilkerson blog?" I can pray and I do for David Wilkerson and John Piper and others who have a high profile and whose words are listened to by thousands of attentive hearers. They, and I, carry a heavy burden...

[color=0033FF]My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment. James 3:1 NKJV[/color]

Dear Ron,

Thank you.

I would like to request a signed copy with any personal note when it becomes available - Thanking you in advance.

It is not speaking season for yours truly and I have been taking this all in ... across the board, and not this 'board' only.

It is always wonderful when someone else can articulate that which you might struggle to convey;

I have to be honest and say to myself; 'do I believe this prediction?' and my honest answer is 'no'. So the next question is 'so you believe this will not happen?' and my answer to that also is 'no'. By 'believe' I mean active faith. Do I have active faith that this calamity will overtake New York? No I don't. Do I have active faith that this calamity will NOT overtake New York? No I don't.

If we were not in the era of writing through the avenue of keyboards, my trash can would be full of crumpled up paper. This past Sunday I spent a considerable amount of time doing some backlogging and research into the times surrounding the now infamous "Y2K" phenomenon. Had half a dozen web pages up - Pulling bits and pieces - Quotes and opinions of all the terror that was to be at hand. Probably the most interesting was ... let me pull out one of the scraps;

[i]In the process I dig some backlogging and research into the year 2000 - The whole "Y2K" phenomenon as it seemed to have such close parallels with this particular space in time. Dug up many articles - Old pronouncements of expectations and disaster even a treatise that was very clever and demonstrative of my premise here. Something along the lines of "[i]The Myth of Self Fulfilling prophecy[/i]" it was in essence a nay-saying of the 'naysayers' who were yet in denial over all that was to transpire when the clock struck 12, going into 2001.

I intended to quip various quotes, pull it altogether and allow it to speak for itself. And yet, I couldn't do it - I ended up disgusted and feeling practically ill from digesting it all. Spent a good portion of the morning doing research and scrapped it all.[/i]

What is rather unsettling to me is something that has longed bothered and has oftened manifested itself here - For some of those who have been around these parts and I know Philologos will recall our brothers Rahman and IRONMAN - They were speaking "prophetically" about all these things that have now 'come to pass' albeit about a year too soon. They were assured that this would all take place in 2007.
The whole economic collapse and if I recall correctly a certain judgment upon America.

To be honest I did have to give it all something of a 'Hmmmm ...' being this side of it and despite the missed 'dating' aspect. There is a sense where one could 'go back' and say, 'well it really did begin towards the end of that year, it just hadn't manifested itself ...'.

All that to say I still am quite bothered by something that I have a great deal of experience with and wonder ...

Are we living in our imaginations? That is tying future expectations of those things conjured up in our heads, derived from present ... pulse taking and then making pronouncements of our speculations? They do not even have to be uttered in one sense - You can 'imagine' that your spouse is 'thinking' or doing A and B and begin to convince yourself that it is in fact true. The question that always arises and that I must continually force myself to ask - 'Do you know this for a [i]fact[/i]?' Not a gathering of evidence for support of a premise (And not on the flip-side to especially ignore it), but is the premise faulty and more to the point, why am I doing this? Do I [i]know[/i]? Or do I not [i]know[/i]?

Generally speaking, I do not and will chide myself - "Then stop it."

[i]Then I beheld all the work of God, that a man cannot find out the work that is done under the sun: because though a man labour to seek it out, yet he shall not find it; yea further; though a wise man think to know it, yet shall he not be able to find it.[/i] Ecc 8:17

Do I have opinions? Oh yes, by the truck load, but I try not to exercise faith in my 'opinions' and I certainly try not to exercise faith in other people's opinions.

Well said.

Ron, my real trouble with these things is the sheer volume - This forum of late has been inundated with these things. Out in the main it is no different. It is [i]speculation[/i] run rampant - I cannot shake just how much of a stake in the current economic malaise is self perpetuating - Self fulfilling. It is [i]Fear[/i], everywhere - Nowadays everybody is not only full of opinion but an expert as well.

"This is [i]that[/i]" and I have to ask - Is it?

Could all of this simply be ... [i]a natural course of stupid human events[/i]?

It's own judgment for it's own failures - From the greed and manipulation of all sides - From the Governments role to the bankers to the individuals who got themselves in over their heads. It is only one piece of the puzzle but likely the largest. I had opined elsewhere a certain ... apprehension at the idea that the responsible ones could be included in the general 'all' - Not 'all' are to be blamed, but they unfortunately will get to burden the responsibility of the irresponsible.

If I was to be very blunt about it - Too much fear mongering. That may be quite unintentional, intentional or otherwise. I am not advocating "Peace, peace when there is no peace" and it is not to turn a blind eye towards what is currently ... present. It is [i]bad[/i] out there and to turn the imagination around and opine that "Isn't as bad as everyone is saying ..." would be just as hypocritical of me.

But still I wonder and as you so well articulated, I cannot put faith in any of it.

I am rambling, as usual - You did thwart an earlier attempt that I was thinking of presenting out here under the heading "Where is the wise man"? I was quite ready to lay a charge and even change the title to "Grow up". There is something that I have observed of late across the board and that is ... immaturity - A serious charge. But I have been observing grown men acting and speaking like children - Emoting overruling 'sound mind' - on both sides of the pond. "We" of all people ought to be of a sound mind and not bound up in so much speculating ...

Another crumpled piece of paper;

[i]Interestingly I too also had the notion of mentioning Benny Hinn as an example - If it was himself that had uttered the same this whole matter would have a completely different tone. The differences in character stop there however and so will I.[/i]

I think it puts many of us in a quandary because it is David Wilkerson, who is of a different [i]ilk[/i] altogether. There is a reluctance on the one hand and a readiness to defend on the other.
Quite understandable. But I so appreciated Philologos note of not being intimidated - That is not boasting nor inferring .. it's just not [i]fearing[/i] - and;

'what do I do with this?'

One last scrap from the trash can;

I am left with observation and would ply deeper.

[b]Men of Old[/b]

This site promotes and brings forth men of a different caliber predominately. There is much of what is now current that is conspicuously absent from their character. They were certainly far more wise than us and far better equipped in conduct, in experience and in constitution - For these reasons and more, is it not why so many of us appeal [i]back[/i] to them? And is it not where most of the charges at what has now become and what can only be called a 'Care-less Christianity', a 'easy beliveism', a call and a cry to return to "old Path's" and old ways from these [i]old men[/i] ...

They had something collectively that we lack. We tend far too often towards jumping the gun - They, were reserved - Cautious - Thoughtful - Articulate. They took the charge of enthusiasm literally - We, are now "Charismatic" in the extreme. I am hardly thinking of the realm of gifts but more so in conduct.

Let me appeal to someone who had much to say about the core of these sort of matters, who spoke much about [i]truth[/i], about being [i]exacting[/i] - Art Katz.

I had left off here and it is peculiar in itself. There is much that I was left quite unsure about in those things that Art would often tie together regarding the plight of the Jews, of Israel and 'how' these things would all work out. But in the core of what he so often tried to articulate was of a principle - I should insert here that he often did indeed second guess himself - But these things ought to be [i]exacting[/i]. All of these things that 'we' as Christians are putting forth should have a heightened sense of responsibility. If we take them at their face value, recognize that weight of responsibility that even Philologos drew attention to ...

What are the unbelieving to do and think? Are we promoting a God who is ... accidental and sloppy, who seemingly tells His people contradicting things? If these things [b]do not come to pass[/b], what then? And if they are to believed ... Where is the seriousness ... Where is the right reverential [i]fear of God[/i] on both sides of the pond? I am not at all impressed with the ease that most of these things are taken with, even those who may be led to believe this is all eminent. If this is to be [i]so[/i] you ought to be livid with indignation at the 'naysayers' ... Have we at all forgotten that if this is so, just how [i]exacting[/i] it all is?

My problem is just there. There is not more than two sides to these things; It is so or it is not so. This, I believe is not precisely that sort of mandate that is so often expressed by our modern day imagination dwellers (Otherwise promoted as 'Prophets'). Wilkerson has at least been careful to qualify most of those things he believes he is seeing\\hearing\\believing. But I am also left wondering when I have received so many of his past newsletters championing trust and not fearing ...

Let me wonder out loud and take this back to something Compton noted elsewhere. [i]IF[/i] someone like DW or you or I - If we were far removed from all the news and media, let's hypothesize say for the last year or so. Holed up in the wilderness, away from it all - No idea what is presently occurring in the 'state' of things - Not knowing, the likelihood that things are more or less as we left them ...

What then? If there was something intimated to our spirit of a coming calamity- [i]Then[/i] it might have more bearing - It would be coming out of 'left field' to the burden bearer.

Well, that I can see could be wrought with problems and misunderstanding. It just seems to me that those things that spoke forward in scripture were not included with a sort of 'might' happen that is so often conveyed in modernity. it is at least so often taken that way. Certainly many things were predicated with an [i]if[/i] behind them - That the Lord would relent - But the others never had a 'might' entangled with them - It was [i]so[/i]. The thing came to pass. It happened. There [i]was[/i] a famine ...

Mat 6:34 [i]Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.[/i]

Ron, my real trouble with these things is the sheer volume - This forum of late has been inundated with these things. Out in the main it is no different. It is speculation run rampant - I cannot shake just how much of a stake in the current economic malaise is self perpetuating - Self fulfilling. It is Fear, everywhere - Nowadays everybody is not only full of opinion but an expert as well.

Well said Mike and Ron.

i was going to post another response to this but there is alot of good reasoning in the posts already but i will say this the more i sit with my lord and the closer i get to him the holy spirit definatley shows me how low the morals are in the world at the moment. in a spiritual typology all i see is sodom and gomora (not sure how to spell gomora as i am tired) The lord that i know personally will only put up with this arrogance and rebellion for long before he lifts his grace and allows a cruel master to enslave the nations because of their sinfull stench which rises to the heavens. when this will happen is totally up to the lord. how or where i dont know but i do wait for the day that every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess Christs righteousness and tears of repentance wash the streets of every nation. it is important to preach everyday as if it is the last day to preach if we wait for certain signs from people then we can calculate when we need to witness and when we dont. evidence of this is when people claimed that the world would end in 2000 all of a sudden there was a rise of attendences in churches as people escaped the wrath to come. but when the world didnt end these numbers started to die of. all snakes escape the burning fire of destruction but they are still snakes at the end of the day ( i heard that quote and loved it) just my thoughts