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The coming evangelical collapse

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sermonindex

Hi Guys

Here is an excellent article from the Christian Science Monitor. Here is the first few paragraphs...click on the link to read the rest.....Frank


Oneida, Ky. - We are on the verge – within 10 years – of a major collapse of evangelical Christianity. This breakdown will follow the deterioration of the mainline Protestant world and it will fundamentally alter the religious and cultural environment in the West.

Within two generations, evangelicalism will be a house deserted of half its occupants. (Between 25 and 35 percent of Americans today are Evangelicals.) In the "Protestant" 20th century, Evangelicals flourished. But they will soon be living in a very secular and religiously antagonistic 21st century.

This collapse will herald the arrival of an anti-Christian chapter of the post-Christian West. Intolerance of Christianity will rise to levels many of us have not believed possible in our lifetimes, and public policy will become hostile toward evangelical Christianity, seeing it as the opponent of the common good.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0310/p09s01-coop.html

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sermonindex

wow the secular or "cultish" prophets are speaking again! where are the prophets of true christianity??


Evangelicalism needs a "rescue mission" from the world Christian community. It is time for missionaries to come to America from Asia and Africa. Will they come? Will they be able to bring to our culture a more vital form of Christianity?


We need new evangelicalism that learns from the past and listens more carefully to what God says about being His people in the midst of a powerful, idolatrous culture.

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sermonindex

I agree brother, where are they? Protecting their pensions perhaps ? :) Anyway, to be brutally honest, I long to see this happen. We do need missionaries here and in Britain and in the West in General.

I find it hard to argue with anything he says. That has been one of my biggest fears in the last ten years, that Christians would throw their lot in with the world(politics, culture war and so on, none of it necessarily bad) and when it was rejected by a fickle world, then so to would the Christian message because it is so identified with the worldly message. I do not mourn the end of Evangelicalism, God has brought it to pass and the people who brought it about are the people who fought so hard against it, classic irony. It is not by might nor power but by My Spirit says the Lord. Now we and our children will have to deal with the worlds backlash. And people like Rush and Coulter and Hannity will not be sharing our fate, I have no doubt of that. The wind will seriously change soon, and these kinds of people always know what way the wind blows.

The movement of Azuza street and at the same time the Welsh revivals swept away dead denominationalism and the Assemblies of God and the Elim Pentecostal churches were born. They swept away much of the dead denominations. This coming movement will sweep away those institutions. That's not to say that they don't hang on for a long time, they will. In Britain it is not unusual to have a church with 12 people in them. What this author points out was my biggest fear, the involvement in Politics and the so called "culture war," has dealt the church a grievous blow, because we are identified with the world when it should be the other way around. The question is now, how will one move forward? What advice to the sheep?

It seems that God stubbornly refuses to glorify ministries, He only glorifies Himself................brother Frank

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sermonindex

The problem isn't that the churches are or will be empty, it is that they will be full. The problem is what exactly are they full of?

Old Joe

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dohzman

Psa 1:1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
Psa 1:2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
Psa 1:3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.
Psa 1:4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
Psa 1:5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
Psa 1:6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

I neither recieve this report nor do I acknowledge it as being anything prophetic, maybe a wolf in sheeps clothing, maybe. The Holy writ declares the very character of God as love and than later describes love as never failing. The Lord is not slack, He will have a people, strong and mighty, full of the Holy Ghost and power! They may look a little rough around the edges but they will glorify thier God and Savior Jesus Christ. The route the Lord takes His disciples is sometimes....no...most of the times a difficult path to understand, but like Israel who was 1 days travel to the promised land but had to travel 40 years in circles till the old man was fully put off, so will the Lord accomplish in these days something wonderful through His people. Jesus asked the disciples will you also leave me? He has brought the large portion of disciple to a difficult cross roads, eat my flesh and drink my blood, total dependence, that always weeds out on the course of discipleship. We'll see who's willing to stand in a pulpit when it's not popular to do so and when there's no money or self grandisment attached to that calling. When the cross in real life is again something nessary to embrace, than we'll see... but I wouldn't count out the church of Jesus Christ just yet! The gates of hell SHALL NOT prevail against it! Never!

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sermonindex

Oh please Dohzman....good grief. No one said anything about the Lord's Church. Before we start talking about Holy writs you really have to read, its really important. What was suggested was the the Evangelicals are facing a precarious future. The very fact that one would call himself an Evangelical or a Baptist or a Pentecostal is part of the problem. If we know Jesus, then we are His followers. There is not a single person in here who would ever say that the Lord's Church could ever be defeated. deep sighhhhh......brother Frank

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sermonindex

I totaly agree Joe. With full and bulging church's right now we are in a woeful spiritual state. Billy Graham said that his biggest regret was the spiritual state that now exists. My only point was about dead denominations, how they tend to hang on forever, keepers of the status quo............Frank

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dohzman

I look at the source of the article and did read it, but water from a poluted well is still water from a poluted well. CS is set up in such a way that it can embrace every from of religion on this ole' planet. The trouble is that its cultish in nature and it presently is inflitrating the church with its false doctrines and anti or extra biblical teachings. At the root it is a serious problem and will in the days ahead pose a serious challenge to the local churches. As to identity or denominational back ground as being a problem rember there were 12 tribes of Israel 13 less one. And since I have had to refute some CS doctrine up close and personal within some local churches I see it first hand as being dangerous. The devil will sound off warnings as long as those warnings make intellegent people think with thier heads and not thier hearts. King David said I will praise you O'Lord in the great assembly and in the assembly of the upright. In each and every christian church I believe God has a people who have kept themselves for God. BTW my comments were not meant to do you any personal grief or harm or distress. I did not post to attack you personally. I have the utmost respect for what I have observed in your writtings and the character in which you post but I feel very strongly about what all these soothsayers are saying of late, and that without any real knowledge of God almost like the sons of sceva who tried to drive out demon in the name of Paul's God, these false prophets are false none the less.To observe thier candor and reconize it as authoritive can and is a slippery slope to navigate, especially for the less informed amoung us.deeper sigh.......your brother in Christ daryl

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sermonindex

"where are the prophets of true christianity??"

They are giving warnings that no one will listen to. They are pleading sound doctrine that falls on deaf ears (this excludes the extreme legalists who believe that theirs in the only sound doctrine, cheapens the blood of Christ, and leaves no room for mercy).

The Bible predicts a great falling away from the faith in the last days. That's little comfort but it shouldn't come as any big revelation.

People would rather feel drunk in the spirit with uncontrollable laughter, listen to tall tales about being transported to the third heaven or chatting with Jesus while you have a bathroom shave. They want 'self-help' Gospel preaching. Anything that excludes the cross, requires personal sacrifice or a regenerate and sanctified heart to God. It's a Gospel that let's us have it both ways.... the old man and salvation, God and mammon. It's a Gospel that's been widdled down to a simple prayer.

It's a pulpit that doesn't command people to take the Gospel home with them, to spend their own time with God, to establish and maintain their own relationship with Christ. It's a pulpit that demands political activism but no prayer. It a 'Jonah pulpit' that demands condemnation of sin but offers no good news to the sinner. It's a pulpit that glories in digesting God's Word for others once a week and arrogantly believes that this is enough. It's a pulpit full of programs and events but no unction. It's a 'fun pulpit' that has preachers for your children but fails to implore the importance of the parent's part in ministering the Gospel to their kid's. It's a pulpit full of props, movie clips, sound bites, and play acting. It brings theater, drama, and entertainment from the secular stage to the pews.

Who needs sound doctrine when our attention deficit flesh is being constantly entertained, coddled, and numbed to that very double-edged thing that is designed to cut through joint and marrow, soul and spirit?

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sermonindex

Paul Washer pointed out that the leader of the Southern Baptist Convention said that if they were honest about it... less than 10% - 15% of their membership are not truly saved.

I think perhaps it wont be a collapse of the evangelical church... but rather perhaps the coming revival will chase the goats out of the barn.

Krispy

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sermonindex

"I think perhaps it wont be a collapse of the evangelical church... but rather perhaps the coming revival will chase the goats out of the barn" krispy

That's it in a nutshell right there. Well said Krispy... Amen.

God still know's what He's doing.

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sermonindex

I am sorry brother Dohzman, I am not buying that and I say that with a smile :) If a donkey stands up and tells the truth, then the truth is the truth. Krispy and ccrider are both correct in their assertions. The thrust of your reply was intimating that the writer as well as the poster believed that God's Church could be prevailed against. In that, you were simply wrong brother.

You argue that the Evangelicals are "just a little rough around the edges," and Krispy points out that Washer believes that perhaps only 10-15% are actually saved. Ravenhill once stated a number like 2%. I will be perfectly honest, I am in the Washer and Ravenhill camp when it comes to their assesments, and they both may be generous. Yet, brother, you have a right to disagree and I fully accept that. You argued forcefully that basicly everything is fine, perhaps just a little fine -tuning is needed and that ultimately this group would glorify God, in that I disagree.

Finally brother, I do not walk in the counsel of the ungodly. And no matter how "respectfully," that is stated, it is simply not true :) God bless you brother and may all of us recognize the truth. Something is either true or it is not. To recognize a truth is not to acknowledge the mouth that it comes from...........Frank

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sermonindex

Paul Washer pointed out that the leader of the Southern Baptist Convention said that if they were honest about it... less than 10% - 15% of their membership are not truly saved.

I think I said that wrong... I think it should say "less than 10% - 15% of their membership IS truly saved".

Sorry about that. I think everyone understood what I was saying.

Krispy

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sermonindex

Here is another post by the author. Its about how you can now text your decision for Christ. I am only posting it to give you an idea where this guy is coming from. Hold your bullets until you read it, that may always be good advice :)

http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/new-toys-same-problem-evangelicals-evangelism-and-the-new-altar-call#more-2897

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sermonindex

Read it... I'm sure the Holy Spirit changed some lives thru Winter Jam, and perhaps even texting. I dont think any of us would dare to say otherwise.

However, what I am struck by is man's attempt to make "getting saved" easier and easier. Yes, it is a free gift from God, and we can do nothing to earn it or deserve it... but where is the Holy Spirit's convicting power? Where is the weeping over sin? Where is the repentence?

I'm just very very bewildered by it all.

Krispy

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sermonindex

It is true the author of this article is from the Christian Science denomination which is a cult.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Science

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sermonindex

Good catch... I didnt pick up on that.

Krispy

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dohzman

You argued forcefully that basicly everything is fine, perhaps just a little fine -tuning is needed and that ultimately this group would glorify God, in that I disagree.

I wouldn't go that far,when it comes to eternal predictions about the souls of the sons of Adam and tacking a % about how many are eternally saved and what percent are real christians or not? I believe Ravenhill as well as Paul Washer run some risk in the presence of God on that day, at the very least a stern rebuke. We all are tempted at times to count Israel and place a number or percentage to it, but any speculation is just that, speculation, Proverbs says who can know the heart of man? It's God who ultimately knows the end from the begining. I like this passage of scripture in acts: Act 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Such as should be saved! Takes all the pressure off me, God is in control. The church of Jesus Christ was is and will be the crown jewel of our Lord, Revelation declares:Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

As to these false prophets, I don't have any need to hear from them, I can reconize the voice of "Our" shepard when it comes, and through who it comes...i.e. books , posts, letters, voice etc...
That which is true may not always be truth, I don't know if you can grasp that concept, but I can tell you a whole lot true things based on observations, surveys etc... but that doesn't nessarily mean that they are truth, for real truth rests and belongs to God and Him alone, and why would He speak through ungodly men at this juncture in life when He has declared that He'll do notthing except He first reveal it through His servants the prophets? Finially what's true today maynot be true tomarrow, that's the type of truth this man is putting forward, but real eternal truth? No.

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swsojourner

It is true the author of this article is from the Christian Science denomination which is a cult.

No, it is not true.

Having an article published by the Christian Science Monitor no more makes one a Christian Scientist than having an article published in the Washington Times makes one a Moonie.

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sermonindex

well... swsojourner is correct. Is here is the bio of the author:

Michael started working with students in 1976, and worked as a youth ministry specialist in four different Southern Baptist churches over a period of thirteen years. In the same time, he graduated from Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in 1984 with a Master’s degree in Theology. He took every philosophy course available and is much indebted to his time with Drs. Richard Cunningham and Timothy George. He returned for post-graduate study in 1987.

Michael and Denise have two wonderful, talented and funny children. Noel Spencer Cordle, 24, and Clay, 21. Noel, an Ohio State University graduate, married Ryan Cordle and they live and work as teachers in southeastern Kentucky. Clay and his wife Taylor live in Lexington, where Clay is finishing a degree in English at the University of Kentucky.

In 1988, Michael left youth ministry and became a pastor. Michael enjoyed preaching, but the rest of the pastorate wasn’t his game, so he soon figured out that God had something else in store. In 1992 the Spencers moved to Southeastern Kentucky, where they live and work in ministry today.

Michael started Internet Monk right after the November 2000 elections, and has been blogging ever since. Internet Monk is consistently rated in the top twenty Christian blogs in the world. It was recently voted the number 12 blog read by Christian leaders. His work has been noted on blogs around the world and published in newspapers and magazines, such as The Christian Science Monitor and Modern Reformation. He was featured in the September 21, 2006 edition of Time Magazine for his blogging on Joel Osteen and was chosen as a featured blogger by the Dallas Morning News. He has been cited and linked by Glenn Beck, CBN, GetReligion, Out of Ur, Yahoo News, Andrew Sullivan, Daily Kos, Rod Dreher,National Review Online and Real Clear Politics, among many others.

In 2008 Michael was awarded a sabbatical grant from the Louisville Institute to pursue his interest in “Contemplation and Balance in Life and Ministry.” He has been a seminar presenter and panel moderator at Cornerstone ‘08 and ‘09. He is a regular guest at Steve Brown, Etc. He has been interviewed on numerous radio programs and magazines. He also podcasts the popular Internet Monk Radio podcast.

Michael is much more opinionated on paper than in person. He describes himself as a New Covenant, Reformation-loving Christian in search of a Jesus shaped spirituality. He has great appreciation for the ancient church, missions, Christian community and theological underdogs.

Krispy

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sermonindex

Dohzman writes.....


"As to these false prophets, I don't have any need to hear from them, I can reconize the voice of "Our" shepard when it comes, and through who it comes...i.e. books , posts, letters, voice etc...
That which is true may not always be truth, I don't know if you can grasp that concept, but I can tell you a whole lot true things based on observations, surveys etc... but that doesn't nessarily mean that they are truth, for real truth rests and belongs to God and Him alone, and why would He speak through ungodly men at this juncture in life when He has declared that He'll do notthing except He first reveal it through His servants the prophets?"

Dear Dohzman, you have now called this guy a false prophet, a wolf in sheeps clothing and an ungoldy man.And also a heretic. Now, you spoke of the "accuser of the brethren." The truth is he is a Christian. His articles are frequently picked up and published in the Monitor. And for that, you have publicly "stoned," him. I am not sure where to go with that brother, not sure at all. Please read the bio that others have copied here about this guy..........Frank

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ChrisJD

There are three kinds of evangelical churches today: consumer-driven megachurches, dying churches, and new churches whose future is fragile.



Is it a good thing that many marginal believers will depart? Possibly, if churches begin and continue the work of renewing serious church membership. We must change the conversation from the maintenance of traditional churches to developing new and culturally appropriate ones.



I'm not a prophet. My view of evangelicalism is not authoritative or infallible. I am certainly wrong in some of these predictions. But is there anyone who is observing evangelicalism in these times who does not sense that the future of our movement holds many dangers and much potential?


The Church of God, and it's condition in the Earth, is not our play thing.


This constant spewing forth of our opinons(EDIT: in particular about what belongs to God, and bears God's name) is sick.

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sermonindex

Chris...Many on sermonindex, and those who have written on revival have talked about "sleepy Christians." They have also talked about the state of the Church. Luther was not very impressed with the state of The Catholic church, Whitfield was not very impressed for what passed for Christianity, Wilberforce wrote the book "Real Christianity," exposing what was real and what was religious. Tozer talked about the state of the Church, Bonhoefferr too and coutless others. Do they all make you sick?. I venture to say that none of them considered the church on earth as a play thing. In fact, many gave their lives to the ones who were actually playing at this "Church thing."...........Frank

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ChrisJD

Hi Frank,

I have not read much of anything that those men wrote about the Church. I don't know.

If they spoke the words of the One that walks in the midst of the candlesticks, who could argue.


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ChrisJD

Frank, also if I could suggest,


I venture to say that none of them considered the church on earth as a play thing.

I think that we should consider this question for ourselves, apart from what others may have done in the past.


We have very powerfull technology and means to spread information.


We are interacting with each other and people in ways that are not easliy seen or comprehended by us.


I think that great caution is needed.

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dohzman

you have now called this guy a false prophet, a wolf in sheeps clothing and an ungoldy man.And also a heretic

Amo 3:3 Can two walk together, except they be agreed?
Ok i read his bio. Now what? Am I to be impressed
? Awed? I know I sound hard but let me pose a senerio you may be better able to understand. Let's say I write an article that condemns evangelicals and the satan free press picks it up and uses it with my permission, I have bid them God speed, I have given them my blessing and any and all of my credibility....2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
2Jn 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
2Jn 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2Jn 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
Where exactly does the CS stand? Heresy and error.

We live in a free society and think that obedience to the written word of God is oppositional, it is not. If a christians writtings appear in a JW's Tower publication with thier consent they are equally wrong no matter how right of factual thier writting is, they "lead" others into error, they allow for a little leaven to enter into those who are following them and they will be held accountable, now that may not be popular to hear say or what ever, but it IS sound christian doctrine and over 2000 years of church teachings bear it out. I don't care what label I have to wear, accuser? No not at all...his own actions in allowing an ungodly publication to print his writtings have become his accuser. Believe it or not he has aligned himself with the Christian Science Cult by allowing that article to be used in thier publication and he himself may be involved with CS in practice since they believe one can be a baptist as well as a christian science participate.

Brother Frank, I don't think you get it here. This man has a following, he's leading people, he has now lead people to SC and some who FOLLOW him will end up in heresy because they wont just read his article they will figure since he wrote for the CS it must all be OK. Man are you blind?! We are talking about eternal souls here, we"er talking about taking stalk of our actions and looking way down the road and seeing the remifications of what we teach---Jesus' actions validated His teaching.Jas 3:1 My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.

Now I have consistantly brought you the Word of God and that by sound precept and principle. I can't make a judgement call on his character/nature but his actions of association and where he leads his followers needs a little more discernment, he needs to ask the Lord for wisdom in this

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sermonindex

Brother, you wrote.....

"Ok i read his bio. Now what? Am I to be impressed
? Awed? "

Do you know how self-righteous and arrogant that sounds? I say that with great sadness. The bio, which I did not even post here, was simply to prove he was not a cultist. You are simply wrong on this brother. You accused this guy of many things. The least of which is that he should not allow his writings to be published in this newspaper. On this last point perhaps one could have a discussion. Yet on the false prophet part, or the heresy part, or the wolf in sheeps clothing part or the ungodly man part, are you not in the least bit ashamed brother?

In this particular case brother , the only thing that you have consistantly brought me is self-righteousness, judgmental stone throwing attitude wrapped around Scripture. Its very sad :(.......Frank

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sermonindex

Hi Chris

I think in the end one cannot judge anothers motives, only his words and actions.....Frank

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dohzman

If you knew me you'd know that there's nothing in me that i pride myself on, nothing at all.As to self righteous? I don't think so, Ive looked inside of me and what I see has me up at nights thinking often,If I barely make it what is the end of those who don't believe. And make no mistake, that publication is meant to convert people to Christian Science.

Do you rember Jim Jones? Whats sad is that you can't see that the actions of association will lead some poor souls straight to an eternal hell because they will buy into a lie, thats what's sad. I guess if I sound self righteous but prevent one unlearned person from following this man into CS teachings by a courious glance beyond his article so be it, my hands are free from innocent blood in this matter. The warning has been given so let me make it plain and clear....Steer very clear of Christian Science anything or you WILL end up following a decieving spirit.

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openairboy

Here is another post by the author.

Please note: the guy is rejecting such ridiculous notions. And, yes, 'texting' in your decision for Jesus is ridiculous. Yea, there is the "Are you saying the Holy Spirit can't use it?" trump card, but come on.

I am all for critiquing this fella, if necessary, but lets make sure we know what we are aiming at.

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sermonindex

A friend of mine told me last night that internet monk is not a writer for CS. He is a pastor somehwhere in Appalachia and has been blogging for a few years. This was a piece that was originally on his blog. According to my friend, someone turned Christian Science Monitor to the blog piece and then asked if they could publish it. He agreed but didn't know it was going to be the 'featured story'. I guess he's gotten pummeled with e-mails since the story broke.

Anyway that's what I was told and this guy is usually on top of all this kind of stuff so for what it's worth...

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sermonindex

Well brother Dohzman. It seems that you have given yourself a clean bill of health. I shall go no further since I do not know your heart. I do know what you said about this man as you mistakenly thought he was a cultist. You did not retract your comments after finding out he was not a cultist, but changed your commments to make this a discussion on whether one should allow your pieces to be published in this paper.

Given the wisdom that you have used brother, I guess when Paul went to Mars Hill , that liberal bastion of lazy philosophers and quoted one of their own, he was wrong. Or when Jesus would go to the Pharisees house, or talk to prostitutes , he too was wrong. Jewish people opposed Christianity with much violence and yet every Sabbath, you would probably find Paul sharing in a synagogue somewhere.

My point is, one may agree or disagree with allowing pieces that you write to be published by a paper such as this, or the Washington Post which is run by the moonies, or any publication that is run by Rupert Murdoch, including Fox News.(Rupert Murdock finianced most of his ventures by the money raised by the "Sun newspaper," in Great Britian, a pornograhic rag) That would be a legitimate discussion, but to be an accuser of the man who writes the pieces, and be wrong about that, well that is another matter indeed.......Frank

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adamdawkins


appolus wrote:
...or any publication that is run by Rupert Murdoch, including Fox News.(Rupert Murdock finianced most of his ventures by the money raised by the "Sun newspaper," in Great Britian, a pornograhic rag)...

Apparently (I read it in a book by Roger Oakland on the Emergent Church), Murdoch now owns Zondervan publishers too - and emergent content increased since his ownership.

He also owns 'Sky' in the UK, pretty much the only satellite TV channel provider available.

As part of controlling the Sun the newspaper, many give him credit for getting Tony Blair to power - and he introduced all manner of ungodly laws (re: homosexual marriage, stem-cell research, etc).

I know this is off-topic, but I thought it was interesting that in remembering where he made his money, he's now taken an interest in controlling Christian publications.

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sermonindex

Hey Adam..you are correct. This man has had a destructive influence in Britian and he is now doing the same in America. He knows how to drive a wedge issue to his favor, manipulating the more gullible by playing to their deepest fears.......Frank

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KingJimmy

Personally, I welcome the collapse of evangelicalism in our country. Our vine is in need of being pruned. We have much fat that needs to be cut out. Of course, such will create a cultural vacuum in our society that will be further filled with something fleshly and demonic. But, such will create much purging we are in need of.

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sermonindex

HI Guys

Here is an article from Chritianity Today which talks about Spencers piece and gives another perspective. Now that I have to give a qualifier, I do not neccecarily endorse the magazine "Christianity Today." :).....Frank

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2009/marchweb-only/110-31.0.html

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ChrisJD

Hi everyone,


Frank,


I guess when Paul went to Mars Hill , that liberal bastion of lazy philosophers and quoted one of their own, he was wrong. Or when Jesus would go to the Pharisees house, or talk to prostitutes , he too was wrong.

Paul, was a man sent by God. He did not preach his own message neither did he spend his time forcasting religous trends.

No, we don't judge men's motives.

We do not either have the messengers of God in our hands as stars, nor do we trim the lamps in the Temple of God or search the hearts and minds of every man.


Neither do our eyes burn like flames of fire.

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ChrisJD

Frank and others,


I wanted to add a request here, that you and others would forgive me if my responses have sounded harsh or short.


I think that I could have done better in what I have written here.


I wish none of you, Frank or anyone else, any harm or wrong but wish you love from God.

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sermonindex

Hi Chris...I have not taken offence at your comments. You have your opinion and your certainly entitled to it. I feel your love brother :) I am a pretty thick skinned Scotsman :)
On the other matter, I think Paul did talk about the future of the "Church." He knew that grevious times were coming, and he did not cease, night and day, warning about wolves in sheeps clothing. And it was not the "outside," he was worried about. Yes Paul was undoubtedly led to Mars Hill by the Spirit, but, unless we know otherwise, we cannot say that a man is not led of God to write what he writes or speak what he speaks or go where he goes. Unless what he writes violates Scriptures, or what he speaks is not wholesome or where he goes does damage to God's kingdom.

If I were invited to a mosque tomorrow to share my faith, I would certainly go. If some radical Muslim magazine wanted to publish anything that I have written, I would certainly allow it to be published. Ah , you may argue, they only want it so that can manipulate it. Perhaps, but if it is a word from God or something that is in the flow of what the Lord is doing by His Spirit, then greater is He that is in me than he that is in the world. The wise are often caught out by their own craftiness, they set snares and oftentimes end up in them themsleves. So, if we follow God with a good concience, we do not have to worry about the stone-throwers...........Frank

PS.. I love and appreciate your humility brother.

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dohzman

Setting the record straight. Mars hill was a public place of debate. Msnbc or the other secular broadcasts are public, however slanted, places of debate to influence one way or another, its good for ratings to have equal opposition with in thier different programs so they tolerate the christian right and left, if it were not so you would never see christian anything on thier broadcasts period.

Christian Science is totally for thier own idealogy, nothing more or less. They are very pro-active and have an active plan to inflitrate the churches by allowing thier disciples to be both evangelical as well as CS. They actively send in teachers to christian churches to become part of the assembly of saints and become active inorder to take away disciples unto themselves, this isnt up for debate, this is real, this is factual, and this is happening all over the US right now and has been for many years and is gaing ground. I know of several pulpits who embrace CS doctrine along with some of thier evangelical orthodoxy. A kind of a mix.

Now you bring in a prominent blogger who by his own admission is no authority but none the less a very visiable person. He allows his views to be placed within that very thing that Paul warned about Act 20:27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Act 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
Act 20:32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.
By his consent He has bid the Christian Science Monitor God Speed, he has given the them the right hand of fellowship, contributed to thier efforts to undermine the church. Now he maynot have thought this through but that effect is the same. What next? Are christian writters going to allow thier writtings to appear in x rated maginzines or publications that are purely anti-christ from the get go? And for what? Money? Filthy Lucre? Reconition?
Brother Frank I don't think you understand exactly what it is I'm trying to head off or even say! There is a grave responsibility when one takes on the duty to be a teacher of men on any level, and as that responsibility grows so does the need for discernment and a knowing of the mind of Christ. If you can show me in scripture that Jesus, who said He would BUILD HIS CHURCH, is going to come back for a shrinking failed defeated body of believers I will be still, but the truth is that buildings and labels may pass away but the victorious cross carring saints of God will become more and more liberal and move from grace to grace as the end times come to a close.

What concerns Me most about his observations is he makes no mention of the soon return of Jesus Christ or the coming of the bridegroom for his bride. He sets a date for the full colapse of the church but forgets that we may not have but a handful of years left, at best. Now if I was transfixed 10years down the road I probably wouldn't see the thief enter my house tomarrow and suffer spoil or loss. I almost feel bad about being so hard on this issue but the Word I'm hearing from the Lord is one that should make every church , every christian in America shake, the day of reconing is upon us. The times of playing church are over. There will be a serious settling over the churches by the presence of God and for those who do not repent, the glory will depart for good. The Holy Spirit will stop striving with man and no matter how big some of these churches are, quickening life will cease as one by one thier lamps will fail because of the lack of oil in thier lamps. At that point they will fully embrace doctrines of demons and fall head long into delusion, believing a lie and not the truth, they will have prepared thier souls for an eternal hell, thinking they are going to heaven they will standing before the great king who will ask them why they have no wedding garments on, no answer to give they will be casty into outer darkness forever where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. And so I take the direction of any leader very serious because precious souls hang in the balance. Even if I try I can not bring myself to picture anyone in hell, no matter how hard I try and no matter who it is I may try to picture there. So to thoughs who I probably offended I'm sorry. But I can't bring myself to stand down on this matter, the time is to short, the things of this life are about to speed up and change very fast, and the souls of the world hang in the balance.

C
ChrisJD

Hi again everyone,

Dear Frank,

I think it would be great if you were given the opportunity to share your [b]faith[/b] in Christ at a mosque.

But too, I think that would be far and away from being invited there to speak about the topic here.

I don't think that we can compare what Paul wrote and said about the future with what was written here. Not at all(John 3:34).

Wish you all well,


Chris

S
sermonindex

Dear brother Dohzman....Perhaps I was not making my self clear. The only issue that I have is that you called this man many names. I can see that you have no desire to address that and so I believe any further comments would not be fruitful. Most of what you write are issues that we could all agree on in regard to Christ returning soon. You write...

"If you can show me in scripture that Jesus, who said He would BUILD HIS CHURCH, is going to come back for a shrinking failed defeated body of believers I will be still."

Are you deliberatly trying to twist the authors words, or give implication that I believe that? I guess you are still equating the "evangelical movement," with God's church? On that issue , you are simply wrong, it is not God's church, any more than the Baptist movement is God's church or the "Pentecostal movement,' is God's church.
There is a seperation going on, even as we speak. The sheep are being seperated from the goats. The Lord is coming back for His sheep and His sheep stand victorious and overcome the world because Jesus overcame the world.

http://scottishwarriors.wordpress.com/2009/01/21/sheep-from-goats/

Lets just agree to disagree, and lets be clear on what we are disagreeing about. I do not believe that author is a false prophet, an ungodly man, a member of a cult or a heretic. I am not his biggest fan, in fact, I believe that he actually waters down the message quite a bit, but he is none of the things that you accused him of. Its kind of like the attack on brother Yun a few weeks ago, lots of words but no actual proof of wrong doing. If you have proof that he is a false prophet or an ungoldly man or a cultist or a heretic, please share with us brother and we can examine that, but if not, then one should refrain from accusations, dont you agree? If you would like to PM on this issue, I would be more than glad to continue our discussion there. I know that this medium is not the best when it comes to tone and understanding where we are coming from. So let me just say brother, God bless you my friend, you are a man of passion and you seem to be fully persuaded. So, it may be that we will just have to agree to disagree on this mans spiritual status..........brother Frank

G
ginnyrose

The debate concerning the placement of this article reminded me of another controversy, or rather storm, that broke when "Playboy" magazine - a porn magazine - printed (in 1976) an interview they did with President Carter in which he admitted he has lusted after females.

Just thought I would say what came to my mind - having lived a while does this, you know.. :-(

ginnyrose

S
sermonindex

The debate concerning the placement of this article reminded me of another controversy, or rather storm, that broke when "Playboy" magazine - a porn magazine - printed (in 1976) an interview they did with President Carter in which he admitted he has lusted after females.

Can you imagine? A man who has lusted after females! Oh my...

Too bad all those people in 1976 who got upset about Carter admitting that he lusted after females couldn't have been transported 20 yrs into the future to 1996 and seen Bill Clinton in action!!

I remember when all that controversy happened over Carter lusting... I was 9-10 yrs old. I remember my dad, not a Christian, saying "let those without sin cast the first stone..."

But you have to admire Carter... as a politician he had a rare moment of honesty.

Boy, I think I've totally jumped off topic! Sorry!

Krispy

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