Be Alert! David Wilkerson's "latest" prophecy

[size=medium][b]Latest David Wilkerson Prophetic Prediction - Is It New?[/b][/size]
[font=Georgia][b]MORIEL MINISTRIES - By James Jacob Prasch - March 10, 2009[/b][/font]

Moriel and Jacob Prasch have received multiple inquiries regarding the [url=http://davidwilkersontoday.blogspot.com/2009/03/urgent-message.html]issuance of a prophetic prediction by David Wilkerson dated March 7, 2009.[/url]

The complication is that although having some additions, it is not new but reiterates one made in 1992 when he said it would be "soon" 17 years ago and is confusing in that it urges 30 days emergency food supply be kept on hand, but stating he has no idea of when.

[b]The latest version of Mr. Wilkerson's prophetic prediction:[/b]
[i]An earth-shattering calamity is about to happen," he writes. "It is going to be so frightening, we are all going to tremble - even the godliest among us." Wilkerson's vision is of fires raging through New York City. "It will engulf the whole megaplex, including areas of New Jersey and Connecticut. Major cities all across America will experience riots and blazing fires - such as we saw in Watts, Los Angeles, years ago," he explains. "There will be riots and fires in cities worldwide. There will be looting - including Times Square, New York City. What we are experiencing now is not a recession, not even a depression. We are under God's wrath. In Psalm 11 it is written, "If the foundations are destroyed, what can the righteous do?"[/i] [url=http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=91097](WorldNetDaily)[/url]

[b]The Original version of Mr. Wilkerson's prophecy - Sept 7, 1992:[/b]
[i]"I have had recurring visions of over 1,000 fires burning at one time here in New York City. I am convinced race riots will soon explode! New York City is right now a powder keg-ready to blow!...federal and State Welfare cutbacks will be the spark that ignites the fuse. Next year, New York City could have over 100,000 angry men on the streets, enraged because they have been cut off from benefits.... Federal troops will have to move in to restore order. New York City will have tanks running down its avenues.... Churches will be closed for a season because it will be too dangerous to travel about. Fires will rage everywhere."[/i]

Many prophetic voices from multiple quarters have been directed by The Holy Spirit to alert The Body of Christ of divine judgment coming on the planet generally, including on the utterly backslidden Protestant Democracies not excluding the USA due to the genocidal proportions of non therapeutic abortion. Britain and Europe however are even more post Judeo Christian and Neo Pagan than the USA, and incipient persecution of the true church and growing anti Semitism and anti Zionism, (both factors in divine judgment) are more acute. More importantly, scripture foretells a coming judgment of God on the Moslem world and unbelieving Israel is bound for 'The Time of Jacob's Trouble'.

We certainly do not deny David Wilkerson's good intentions, nor can we deny that God has spoken through him in the past in the prophetic realm with accuracy. Additionally, Hebrew prophets like Jeremiah, Joel and Isaiah warned of judgments decades before they transpired.

There are however concerns that lead us to urge caution in testing Mr. Wilkerson's predictions as we commanded to test prophecy in 1 Corinthians 14, and we are warned of those predicting things in a time specific manner that fail to transpire in Deuteronomy 18 & Jeremiah 28 where we have a list of biblically proven false prophets such as Paul Cain, Rick Joyner, Benny Hinn, Cindy Jacobs, Pat Robertson, and Kenneth Copeland.

[b]In fairness, Mr. Wilkerson set no date, but the question automatically arises:[/b]
[b]*[/b] "Why then are 30 days food specified"?
[b]*[/b] Also, how soon was soon in 1992?

Had Mr. Wilkerson said 'soon' and then said to store up 30 days food supply, it would make sense. Instead, his latest prediction states flatly he has no time frame and does not say "soon" as he did with the same prediction in 1992.

Biblical prophets gave clear signals. Store up 30 days food supply from when? Surely there must be clarification if this is from God.

Mr. Wilkerson discredited himself and his ministry in his shameful and stupid visit several years ago to the UK, and this has made many British Christians who had admired him in times past skeptical, not of his integrity, but of his credibility.

After denouncing the kind of 'laughing & drunken' counterfeit revivals associated with the Pensacola and Toronto fiascoes in his excellent recording [url=http://www.intotruth.org/dev/reproach.htm]"Reproach On The Solemn Assembly"[/url]", in a direct, and some would say hypocritical contradiction of his own warnings, Mr. Wilkerson rejected solid warnings and accepted a number of engagements to speak many of the most lunatic fringe churches that continued promoting these very deceptions. One church he spoke at in The English Midlands promoted Benny Hinn only one month later.

Mr. Wilkerson then began defending the wolves in sheep's clothing and criticized their opponents who warned the sheep from them. Mr. Wilkerson then went to London to a church that followed the Toronto Experience and Paul Cain (the confessed homosexual and alcoholic false prophet and mentor of Todd Bentley) to deliver one of the most utterly ridiculous, completely irresponsible, and totally unbiblical teachings imaginable.

With no regard to the exegetical context, Mr. Wilkerson invented the unbiblical doctrine of 'feeding Jesus' (Jesus Himself said that His food is to do the will of The One who sent Him) and essentially mindlessly blabbed out a line of biblically un-founded rubbish in its purest form.

We are warned not to sharply rebuke an older man, and we do not wish to. However, his teaching was a barrage of silly unscriptural junk not supported by the cited text in context and not of God. This however was the prelude to his supreme betrayal of those who trusted him.

Mr. Wilkerson spoke of being on the ground laughing unable to get up because God's Hand was on him. The Fruit of The Spirit is 'Self Control' (ekreitei) not the lack if it. The fact that he 'could not get up' proves it was not God's Hand that was upon him. The Word of God teaches the very antithesis.

For a respected brother of his stature to preach one thing but do the very thing he preached against was a colossal act of hypocrisy. It was a huge let down. It would have been better had he never come to Great Britain. His visit has had no enduring positive impact. Ever since Mr. Wilkerson's indefensible antics in Britain, we have not been able to trust him or respect his judgment or discernment to the degree we once did. We do not attack his integrity but we simply cannot exercise the confidence in him in The Lord we so much did at one time.

Again, he is a man of God but none of us is perfect. He may be right but the prophecy is so nebulous how can we know? Why does he say something 17 years ago saying it would be soon, but now say store up 30 days provision yet saying he does not know for when? It is very unclear and the source of the prophecy no longer commands the credibility that he once did.

His nonsense in Britain was an idiotic disgrace. We just do not know if he is any longer reliable or not. Yet, we are not against him personally and we again recognize that God has indeed used him including prophetically. Our simple advice is to weigh his warning carefully. We want God to bless David Wilkerson and we still esteem his overall legacy. However, in the UK he sadly tainted it.

Having said that, without any reference to David Wilkerson, the scriptures generally point to a global crisis socially, economically, strategically, and politically with a coming chaos heralding the wrath of God. Many godly Christians likewise echo similar warnings. God's judgment is coming and to a degree has already come. This no bible based praying Christian can possibly deny.

On this note, we would point our readers to the following article by our friend Brother Paul McGuire.

In Jesus,
Jacob Prasch

This and the rest of the message can be viewed [url=http://campaign.constantcontact.com/render?v=001aqj1QInodGRMWw12uBg7Vy9zI19A_29z3w2Dyg-yocnYEEMD-B3vx4ZLP7jUWoisDyiycL7yT-qNDtJQLGYvokT0o9oPPVVhab_5a-E_KmDQCN-ibsJPb9YsjesPNaSdyvd4K251ukMJl8fsILnrCG3w5XHg6XbrEBtjWhgvlNW9IgPhNkQ5NVEx_uusL79kGAsXyZkqHx7oJlkgAww-1QWszr1BbHbYcfosYBgq5ZFW00XQpW-Zug%3D%3D]Here[/url]

Does not matter who wrote the artical, the facts are true and the rubuke to David Wilkerson still stands because it is valid.

David Wilkerson "prophesied" something that has not come to pass:
[b]Deut 18:22[/b] [color=990000]When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.[/color]

David Wilkerson did speak of being on the ground laughing unable to get up, reminiscent of the herertical "laughing revival" as the "Toronto bleesing" & the "Brownsville revival"

Jesus-is-GOD wrote:
This is sickening. Have you the right to throw the first stone with your background Mr. Prasch?

How many souls have you won to Christ compared to David?

Rev__Enue wrote:
David Wilkerson is not perfect unlike the people
at Moriel.
David Wilkerson is not venemous and hate filled as Jacob Prasch is either.

Lets look at the fruit:
David Wilkerson's ministry Teen Challenge has been used of God to set thousands upon thousands of drug addicts free by the power of the
Holy Spirit. Lives eternally changed for the better.

Moriel has been used by "god" to do what?????
Blather and critisize and not much else.

Yes some fruit there.

What will you do with the "prophesy" from Septempber 7, 1992 which is said to be comming to pass soon that has not come to pass?

David Wilkerson is a great preacher with a very needed ministry, but he is not a prophet and should refrain from prophesying.

Umm... Jesus said he was coming soon, and this was 2,000 years ago. "Soon" is a very subjective term in prophecy.

in all essence... 6000 years ago is pretty "soon" compaired to eternity past and future. (after and before the earth and stars ect. i'm not totaly clear on THAT subject but i hope you understand)

Umm... Jesus said he was coming soon, and this was 2,000 years ago. "Soon" is a very subjective term in prophecy.

i'm not defending David W, i am just mearly asking you to use a different bases of evedence for calling someone a false prophet. a different "justification" to prove him false. if he was wrong and jesus appears before what david w said happens then ok... but that is a different subject.

-----------------------------
on a different note;
why would such a man that claims to be a God fearing man being so flat out hatefull? if fear God like you say you do you would have the courtisy to at lease state your "facts" respecfully and as lovingly as you possibly can. in all actuallity i will not lend the man that wrote those hatefull things about david w my ear for any amount of time, not for the david w's sake but for the fact that there might be some poision inside of the man's thoughts.

Rev Enue wrote:
Mr. Logic

When Wilkerson said soon in 1992 did he suggest
What time frame soon suggested? No.
Soon could be 5 years and it could be 50 years.
So how could you say that this a false prophecy
Is the time is not yet at hand?
You can not.

If you’re thinking about when Jesus says that He comes quickly (Rev 22:7, 12, 20); He is meaning suddenly or maybe readily.
It is not meant as "soon" as in a short period of time as David Wilkerson claims when he said, "I am convinced race riots will [b]soon[/b] explode! New York City is right now a powder keg-ready to blow!..."

And when a Prophet speaks, he does not use probable words such as "[b]could have[/b] over 100,000 angry men on the streets".
A Prophet speaks in a definite manner with specifics.

David Wilkerson does have some specifics such as:
"New York City will have tanks running down its avenues.... Churches will be closed for a season" & Fires will rage everywhere."

But what about the other cities?
Or is it only a prophesy for New York?

Furthermore, when a Prophet brings a new prophecy, it is because the old has already come to pass.
However, if it is a continuation of the old prophecy, is it separate from the time of what the Book of Revelations tells us about?

If he is only referring to what the Bible says in the Book of Revelations, he should at least give references to such; the Holy Spirit would if it was according to the 7 year period so not to confuse anyone.

Is David Wilkerson prophesying about a separate event other than that of the Book of Revelations speaks about?

Tell me, what has Moriel done for anyone ?

Moriel has taught the church good doctrine.

Hi Logic...

What will you do with the "prophesy" from Septempber 7, 1992 which is said to be comming to pass soon that has not come to pass?

David Wilkerson is a great preacher with a very needed ministry, but he is not a prophet and should refrain from prophesying.

Personally, I don't know what to make of Brother Wilkerson's message. I think that the underlying message behind it is quite sound. Wilkerson isn't pointing people toward himself, a prosperity message or some other substitute for Christ. Rather, he is pointing people toward the cross of Jesus Christ. We should [u]ALWAYS[/u] have our shoulders squared toward the Lord and be prepared to endure many hardships. It is interesting that some people are willing to accept much of his messages as Christ-centered UNTIL he starts speaking about what he believes that God has shown him in regard to future events.

I would remind you that Leonard Ravenhill -- a highly regarded man of God -- was a very close and personal friend and mentor of David Wilkerson's even AFTER he had published his book [i]The Vision[/i]. In fact, Brother Ravenhill wrote a forward to David Wilkerson's "other" prophetic book, [i]Set the Trumpet to thy Mouth[/i]. This book is just as ominous...just as pressing as [i]The Vision[/i]. Wilkerson speaks of oil fields in the Middle East on fire...big name preachers caught in adultery...the rise of mega-churches...and many other things -- remarkable in that it was published in 1985. Leonard Ravenhill seems to be a character witness for Wilkerson in the forward of this book. I will pull it from my shelf and transcribe it into this post:

"Dr. Wiersbe has given us a lovely book on walking with the giants. Brother David has given us something better in this wonderful book, and it is walking with the prophets.

There is probably no preacher in the nation who is more intimate and knowledgeable on the crime and accelerated depravity in the inner cities of our nation, but he skililfully avoids any horrendous statistics on these youth-crippling vices, which is the result of the anemic preaching of the Word of the living God. There is so little preaching of Christ, repentance, and judgement of sin.

Often I am asked, "Is David Wilkerson a prophet?" Well, not in the classification of the Old Testament, but surely a prophet in the bracket of the New Testament. I claim for him that God has made him a watchman unto our nation. My slight contribution to this book is like a man taking a bucket of fire and adding it to a volcano, for this book certainly is volcanic. The author sees the church of Jesus Christ wounded, raped, and robbed; and he blows God's trumpet to show us the sin and unbelief that caused it.

He has been broken in compassion for the weak and withered testimony of believers today in a world of arrogant heresy and strident cults. I saw him on one occasion stagger into my office, and his lips trembled as he spoke with tears in his eyes, saying, "Len, I hardly dare put on paper and publish what the Lord has given to me." But he has done this, and I for one am tremendously glad that he did.

This book will bring a cry of joy from the young preachers who are asking for a spiritual voice compelling the church back to her original calling of holiness and power. The author has followed the command of Joel to "Blow the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the Lord cometh for it is night at hand; a day of darkness and of gloominess." Then he urges us on to Joel 2:12,13 "Therefore also now, saith the Lord, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and mourning, and rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the Lord your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil."

God grant us the Spirit of obedience to do this, in order that Joel 2:30 may be our experience: "I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth." A divine intervention is our only hope.

This trumpet gives no uncertain sound.

Leonard Ravenhill
(Author -- "Why Revival Tarries")

How will this all pan out? I have no idea...except that the Lord will always remain the Author and Finisher of my faith. My life is in His hands...come mountains or valleys, life or death. Why? For saints, even death is a victory for our Lord.

For one, I am praying for my wife and my family. I am praying for the Body of Christ in New York and America...and the world. I am also praying for my "neighbors" in the land of my temporary citizenship. And most importantly, I am keeping my eyes toward Christ, with the goal of letting nothing move me. Why not? We have nothing to fear in Him.

:-)

Soon could NOT be 50 years.

Sir, if you were to study the prophets closely, you would find out that many of them waited their entire lives to never see the words they pronounced against such cities as Jerusalem come to pass, many of who asserted the things were so soon to come that they would speak of the things to come as if they were past tense!

Even though I believe Wilkerson's word is probably from the Lord, I have no interest in defending it. I'd just like to suggest the rigid rules of discernment that you are applying to these things are human in their origin, and are not based on the Scriptures. Comments as such that masquerade as "discernment" are as false as the prophetic words they claim to denounce.

These things must be done in Spirit and in Truth. They must be grounded in God. And James says when such things are of God, they are:

James 3:17 But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy.

I have often spoken like you have, straight from the hip and passionately... often blindly so. Might I suggest your discernment be spoken in the wisdom that James suggests? Otherwise, it is entirely questionable.

What will you do with the "prophesy" from Septempber 7, 1992 which is said to be comming to pass soon that has not come to pass?

David Wilkerson is a great preacher with a very needed ministry, but he is not a prophet and should refrain from prophesying.

You are reading a highly edited version of what he said in 1992. I'm am somewhat amazed that one like Jacob Prasch would do that and angered because of his platform. David Wilkerson in his 1992 newsletter describes his vision of 1000 fires burning in New York and then what you are reading from Prasch is making it sound like the rest is apart of his vision which it was not.

In the original newsletter Wilkerson changes the flow of thought to describe conditions as they existed in New York at that time. He was merely parroting newspaper headlines that were dealing with welfare reforms and financial shortcomings that were going to leave thousands without money and food in NYC. Many, as apparently Jacob Prasch has done, have tried to make David Wilkerson say that his vision was going to happen in '93 which he didn't say at all.

Jacob Prasch is someone whom I respect greatly. I'm somewhat suprised that he would employ deceptive editing in that way. You have to read the whole 1992 newsletter to get what was said.

Hi everyone,

After reading through this briefly I wanted to share something with you all.

One of the things that stands out to me when I am reading something like this and trying to percieve if the person's judgment is sound or not, is the control they exhibit over their own speech. In Psalm 25 it say that the Lord will guide the meek in judgment and that He will teach them His way.

When I read over and again words like 'utterly' 'colossal' 'mindlessly' and so forth, when I see things like this in [b]abundance[/b] it gives me the impression that the author is struggling in their own power to make a point and that they are not speaking for God, or with His authority.

Wisdom says that all the words of her mouth are in righteousness and there is nothing froward or perverse in them. Nothing twisted, distorted, or false.

The meek will He guide in judgement.

The meek will He teach His way.

Ok I went digging around a bit to find that newsletter. (I've kept Wilkerson's newsletters--and coverletters for that matter--for close to 20 years now.)

Here is what Jacob Prasch says that David Wilkerson prophesied in 1992:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Original version of Mr. Wilkerson's prophecy - Sept 7, 1992:
"I have had recurring visions of over 1,000 fires burning at one time here in New York City. I am convinced race riots will soon explode! New York City is right now a powder keg-ready to blow!...federal and State Welfare cutbacks will be the spark that ignites the fuse. Next year, New York City could have over 100,000 angry men on the streets, enraged because they have been cut off from benefits.... Federal troops will have to move in to restore order. New York City will have tanks running down its avenues.... Churches will be closed for a season because it will be too dangerous to travel about. Fires will rage everywhere."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here, however, is what he actually said:

A young pastor asked me recently, "Why do we need to know what's ahead? Can't we just leave that
in God's hands and go our way rejoicing?"
Beloved, the Lord warns us to prepare us! You see, he is coming for a prepared Bride - and knowing
that fire is about to fall from heaven, He forewarns us in love: "Seeing then that all these things shall
be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye be in all holy conversation and godliness" (2 Peter
3:11). We're not to panic when judgment hits - we're to be built up and ready!
A Prophetic Warning To New York City!Right now, I believe God is speaking a warning to New York
City. And I wrestled with His severe word as I prepared this message. I prayed, "Lord, is this really
going to happen?" Again and again, I heard the still, small voice: "Preach it - warn! Those who want
the truth will receive it!"
Dear saint, this warning is not meant to scare anyone. It's meant only for you to take to the Lord and
pray. This is what I believe the Lord showed me:

Thirty days of chastisement will fall on New York City such as the world has never seen. God is going
to let down the walls! There will be unimaginable violence and looting - over a thousand fires will be
burning at the same time, throughout the city and its boroughs. Times Square will be ablaze, and the
flames that ascend into the heavens will be seen for miles. Firetrucks will not be able to handle it all!
Trains and buses will shut down for a few weeks. Billions of dollars will be lost. Broadway shows will
stop completely for weeks at a time. It will cause businesses to flee the city in an unstoppable
hemorrhage. The violence will be so ferocious, it will shock the whole world. Our streets will be lined
with not just the national guard, but our country's militia. Los Angeles' fires were confined to a few
sections of that city - but New York will be ablaze in all its boroughs!
Such things are expected in Third World countries, but not in a civilized nation like the United States.
Yet in not too long a time afterward, New York City will go bankrupt - the world's "queen city" cast into
the dirt! It truly will become a Third World city - a city of poverty!

[b]Here is when he said it will take place:[/b]

When will all this come about, you ask? All I can say is, I believe I will be here when it happens! And
when it happens, no matter where we are - in our apartment or on the job - we are not to panic or
fear!

You will notice:
1. No 100,000 men marching down the street
2. No tanks going down the avenues
3. No churches being closed for a season etc...

Now to be fair, David Wilkerson did say all those things....but not in what he prphesied. No, they were actually in the coverletter. That's what I referred to in my previous post when I said that Wilkerson was repeating newspaper headlines of the day. In the coverletter btw there is no hint of a prediction. He was only describing the conditions that existed already in NYC at that time.

In a following newsletter he would go on to say that the worse judgment that God could send in the immediate future would be a period of finacial prosperity. (at the time of these newsletters we were in a mild recession)

I'm more loyal to the Word of God than I am to Bro Wilkerson, but if someone is going to bring an accusation against an elder then it needs to be the truth.

Blessings,
Jeremy Hulsey

Such rules as prophets must name dates and be 100% correct is erronous!

Greg,

I agree that prophets don't have to set definite dates all the time, but are you saying that a person doesn't necessarily have to get his prophecies right 100%? If the prophet is not right every time, then we are told not to be afraid of him (Deu. 18:22).

Mr. Prasch - look at a recent video of TSC ...

Also felt I should clarify for whomever - The Midrash debate was not on Moriel's forum as you 'may' remember it or those who came onto the other man's forum from yours to get us - not Several years ago - just 6, come this July.

Brother, no one here is privy to your personal grievances with them, this is not a place for airing them out. Mr. Prasch is not present on this forum, you might want to direct these things directly to him.

"Mr. Wilkerson discredited himself and his ministry in his shameful and stupid visit several years ago to the UK, and this has made many British Christians who had admired him in times past skeptical, not of his integrity, but of his credibility."

This and the laughing matter mentioned - Would like to hear or see evidence of these things, if they are true or not - I am unbiased and have no regard for second hand information - Neither to defend nor accuse - Facts please. Evidence. Context.

[i]"In the final analysis, David Wilkerson's prophetic warning should be heeded."[/i] [url=http://campaign.constantcontact.com/render?v=001aqj1QInodGRMWw12uBg7Vy9zI19A_29z3w2Dyg-yocnYEEMD-B3vx4ZLP7jUWoisDyiycL7yT-qNDtJQLGYvokT0o9oPPVVhab_5a-E_KmDQCN-ibsJPb9YsjesPNaSdyvd4K251ukMJl8fsILnrCG3w5XHg6XbrEBtjWhgvlNW9IgPhNkQ5NVEx_uusL79kGAsXyZkqHx7oJlkgAww-1QWszr1BbHbYcfosYBgq5ZFW00XQpW-Zug%3D%3D]Paul McGuire[/url]

From the article linked in the original post. I am not in agreement with them however.

From the same:

However, [u]what if[/u] God did reveal something to David Wilkerson? [u]What if[/u], for example, what he saw was a consequence of an Israeli strike against Iran where computer guided missiles from Russia and other nations were launched. Intelligence experts are aware of the fact that there are thousands of missiles aimed at major U.S. cities and vice versa that are on a hair-trigger alert. [u]What if[/u] Iran attacked Israel and that action precipitated a nuclear missile exchange ...

[i]What if ..[/i]

What if ...

Some zealots started fires in NYC, just to get the ball rolling - Help out a little.

I wonder about ... the FDNY and NYPD - Have they taken notice? Wonder how they have welcomed all this ... suggestion.

What if ...

We take this all seriously and make a run on the grocery stores and while were at it, the banks as well.

What if, you stub your toe or your alternator goes out or ...

The sun shines, the economy improves, a revival hits NYC and beyond or any combination thereof.

What if ...
What then?

How long will these things go on and why is it always surrounding present circumstances? Be it 1992, 2009 or Y2K? The news is read and the prophecies are extrapolated out of them - Are they 'direct revelation' or something else entirely?

Look at the obsession with post after post about all this. 2 months from now, all forgotten? - on to the next thing?

You want to cause injury to your spirit? Go on reading these things, absorb all that the news presents you as speculative fact- That is what they are implying - Conspiracy theories which may even have a hint or even more truth to them- Do you know which is which?

Take a real honest look around you. Are we in [i]fact[/i] [b]in[/b] the 'great depression II'? Is it so? Are the streets on fire and deserted? Martial law - Troops in the streets - Chaos and commotion - Executives launching themselves out the windows on Wall Street?

Do you fully know what today or tomorrow will bring?

Just what [i]are[/i] the facts? What [i]is[/i] the evidence?

I would turn no ones head around in ignorance, nor plead for an alternative - short of ...

Faith for [i]fear[/i] - Because right now the imaginations of our fallen minds are ruling the day and we are far too bound up in them. Speculative fears- Imaginative fears - Remember the quaint little acronym? F.E.A.R?

[b]F[/b]alse
[b]E[/b]vidence
[b]A[/b]ppearing
[b]R[/b]eal

What biblical precedence do we have, what scriptural warrant do we have for this aptitude and attitude? None that I know of.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=27885&forum=34&post_id=&refresh=Go]An Instructive Truth[/url]

quote;
"We are warned not to sharply rebuke an older man, and we do not wish to. However, his teaching was a barrage of silly unscriptural junk not supported by the cited text in context and not of God. This however was the prelude to his supreme betrayal of those who trusted him.

Mr. Wilkerson spoke of being on the ground laughing unable to get up because God's Hand was on him. The Fruit of The Spirit is 'Self Control' (ekreitei) not the lack if it. The fact that he 'could not get up' proves it was not God's Hand that was upon him. The Word of God teaches the very antithesis"

WOW DAVE GOT HIT BY THE HOLY GHOST???

This also happened to me.

Don'T you just love it when the skeptic gets hit?
How wonderful. Yes those Holy Spirit experiences are so precious. It will take a person a million miles.
I hear this is still happening at Toronto and with Rodney Howard Browne.

GO FOR IT DAVE!!!

double post

Hi Logic...

Mr. Wilkerson spoke of being on the ground laughing unable to get up because God's Hand was on him.

:-(

Someone said, somewhere, sometime ago in some place that Wilkerson had submitted to these manifestations.
Must be true if they, whoever, the parties involved had witnessed such things.

Well not exactly true. I can't remember the sermon where this rumor came from...I'm thinking 'A Reproach Among the Heathen'...But he said, in fact, the opposite. He said that there were times of great joy in the Holy Spirit where he lay in his office in prayer and laughed with great joy. The context of what he said was to avoid the foolishness of what was going on in places like Toronto where a man slaps you on the forehead to knock you down into uncontroled laghter.

Rumors in the past have also circulated that he divorced his wife and left the ministry. All of which are untrue.

Blessings,
Jeremy Hulsey

I would like to know if Mr. Prasch had appealed to Mr. Wilkerson before he decided to email slander to his select mailing list.

Shouldn't you ask him?

I had reason for clarifying 'which' forum. It was very important to clarify - and the reasons why it was very important to clarify I kept to myself.

Which is the problem. "We" do not know who the "we" you are referring to is. And that which you choose to keep to yourself is not helpful when you are speaking in abstracts. No need for any acrimony it is just confusing to the hearers when you are speaking alternately in the first person and the third person as if everyone here was privy to your former or present situation - Who is "ACT"? Who is "our" and "we" that you keep referring to? I am not of necessity asking for answers, they are questions for your own consideration. The majority of us do not know what you are talking about and again those that you are speaking to are not present here.

"What if" your "what if" never entered anyone's mind to start fires until now?

Hyperbole - Yet, point taken. It was unnecessary. I would offer again though ... Do these things not carry some weight or [i]shouldn't they[/i]? That is [i]if[/i] this is all to happen ... should it not be taken with seriousness and gravity? It is my beef that the way it is taken seems to be largely ambiguous and this is one of the principles I am after.

I think I made some mistakes earlier in how this was responded to, my tendencies to jump from specific to generalities.

What has happened to "giving others the benefit of the doubt", when we don't know what they've been through - could never endure it ourselves - or who they are - nor haven't had the ministry that they have had or are ignorant of what "root of bitterness" that they've been exposed to from others and continue on with attacking a man who's church loves him dearly - a man who's slate is far more clean than those who feel the liberty to assault his character & decisions?

Kind of a mixed bag there (from the articles standpoint) isn't it? On the one hand there was an emphasis on separating integrity from character as was stated, yet it didn't come out that way at all - Why I mentioned where is the evidence to support the accusations.

"giving others the benefit of the doubt"

It seems to me this is where we can go wrong and make an assumption, entangling emotions and appreciation - Love for a brother, etc. to rush to his defense. It is along the same lines of argument that some of us used to have even with say a Benny Hinn. "Are there not thousands being saved due to ...." - "Has he not done ____" And so forth.

Of course character plays into it and integrity as well - Respect and ... [i]responsibility[/i]. The very qualities that are deduced and expected of those 'leading the sheep'.

Is this utterance, this warning - Is it responsible or is it creating undue fear? This is the bottom line of the argument for me.

Around here we have often touted the [i]"Play the ball, not the man'[/i] line and as another has noted, it comes down to "What am I to do with this?"

It is a [i]good[/i] thing to be measured and questioned and it can be done if the content is what is under scrutiny. I think I could easily speak for the many here who have a great appreciation for David Wilkerson and yet see how even having to make that mention colors or presents a certain bias in the mind? I am one of them - I love DW and if there was a sermon I would promote and one that had such a truly, literal effect in altering, solidifying a decision I already had the simmerings of before hand, it would be ...

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=3843]A Call to Anguish[/url]

I left the church 'proper' (rather 'modern') not 'because' of this particular message but as just an element and consolidating of a number of factors - In fact, the message itself had no resemblance or emphasis or even suggestion toward my decision.

So there is my color and my bias - What has it to do with the statement? Nothing. This is not about what he has done, but what has been said. And it is a healthy and usually welcomed attribute to be "Berean like" - Paul [i]loved[/i] the fact that he was tested and that they would not take his word on gratis (or we might assume his reputation, integrity, character?)

I do not know that we can necessarily extrapolate chapter and verse - (We do anyway) to something like this - But it is a bit vague, non-specific - ambiguous - open to interpretation. Does it not raise the question [i]"When[/i]"? I would not even question the sincerity, this is indeed what he has felt\\saw and has the former replays if you will that go back all these years now. I cannot say 'he is wrong' anymore than 'It is so'.

That is also a huge part of the problem. It's frankly confusing. It seems to me it should be either adamant and grave, taken with all seriousness [i]right now[/i] or just flatly discarded. Which is it? What am I to do with this?

I cannot lean either way with any assurance, so it just goes into the larger pot of abeyance, of the realm of 'perhaps'.

But scripturally there is an issue with this word - [i]Fear[/i] and an aspect of that is another fear - I fear that this might be regretted later. Why? Because I myself often regret many things, especially things written right here in this forum. I go away from the morning and come back, re-read my ramblings and ... Oh, why do I do it? I can almost guarantee being that it is morning here now that this afternoon I will again feel this same way.

My tendencies in asking questions is not in accusation (at least that is not usually the motive or intention) but to cause first myself and others to just [i]think[/i] about matters. About repercussions. About timing - Are present circumstances or merely speculations of what is next in line a barometer of tomorrows foreboding? [i]Should[/i] we be doing this? Are we creating undue fear? Do we have scriptural principle and warrant for it?

Sometimes we do - But should they be, are they not ... [i]exacting[/i] not ... vague?

Generalities largely. No acrimony nor strife necessary nor intended.

You guys are making us Calvinist look good.

In the old testament the test for a prophet was more in the line of accuracy.

In the New Testament we are told to weigh and judge prophecy by the body of Christ, a check that was not performed in the old testament.

Jesus did not repeat the criterium of accuracy, but rather said that we should recognize a prophet by his character.

Bileam prophecied accurately, yet he was a false prophet. Jona prophesied, and God refrained from fulfilling it because Ninive repented. Yet Jona did not have God's heart.

In the NT a prophet must know God's heart and
be Christ-like over and above beeing accurate. The Spirit filled body of Christ is entrusted to performs the accuracy test and compliance with the rest of scripture.

Matthew and other scriptures even warn us of prophet who prophecy accurately and may even validate themselves through a sign that takes place but still they are false prophets because they do not have Christ's likeness.

Matthew 7

A Tree and Its Fruit
15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

I can tell you a little anekdote from my own life.
I had Christian brothers who visited me one day. We stood in my porch in the early evening hours. I said to them: Look into this directing in the sky and when you see a sign you know that I can fortell the future. Seconds later a light blip appeared in the sky in the direction that I pointed to. They were flabberghasted! Later I told them that I checked a website for Iridium sattelite flares that predicts sattelite passed by time and geographical coordinates.

whyme wrote:
You guys are making us Calvinist look good.

I'm a Jesusist.

20And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

21Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

22For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

23And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

24Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

25Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

26Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.