The Great Tribulation

If it is true, that we are at the doorstep to the times of Jacob's trouble, that the Great Tribulation will soon be upon us, then we must sound the alarm to the others to get ready...because the enemy is at the gate, and the trumpet is about to sound!

The book of Revelation does not give us what day to day life will be like for the Christian during the time known as the Great Tribulation, only that is will be a slaughter of humanity.

I have written the following events as a possible scenario of what I believe will shortly come to pass. I also believe it will be far, far worse then what I have written down; there will be supernatural judgments of God occurring during this time as well.

My intention in writing this, is not to add to the Book of Revelation, but only to present a possible scenario of what life may look like for Christians on the ground, who will have to endure it, ...and to cause as many as who will receive it, to be sober-minded and to take their Christian walks seriously. I believe the time is short.

I feel the Lord gathering up His elect in this hour, as a Shepherd divides the sheep from the goats. The day of His coming is fast approaching, and I believe that I have been given understanding into events that are to shortly come to pass.

One may ask, what is our calling as Christians and how do we refer to ourselves?

…with deepest humility and contriteness of spirit, I want to say how grateful we are that the Lord has saved us and redeemed us from the world; He has taken away our sins and washed them so they are remembered no more. Our names are written down in heaven...our light is seen in the world like a city on a hill that cannot be hid. Lord Jesus, help us…help me that I will stand out in the crowd as one of yours. Take the world out of me, and let be holy as you are holy. Amen

The Great Tribulation

I believe the Great Tribulation will soon be upon us, and that the times before us are going to progressively get worse and worse.

This is why we should be ready: Revelation 3:10 says: Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

Unfortunately, most Christians will not be ready - according to the Revelation 7:9-15, most Christians are not going to survive the time known as the Great Tribulation. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%207:9-15;&version=50;

The following is only a possible scenario of what may come.

2009 – 2012 may bring many changes. Sometime during this time frame the covenant with many as spoken about in the book of Daniel may come to pass. Perhaps it will only be a short time now, since Americans had elected a new President, that the agenda of the New World Order begins to take shape globally.

A possible scenario...

Concerning the present landscape in the Middle East and in looking forward into the future, the current conflict between Israel and the Palestinians in Gaza may spread: This war may spread beyond Gaza's borders into Syria (in which Damascus would surely fall), Lebanon and even possibly Iran. Consider that the world is presently in an Economic Meltdown, a Great Depression not seen since time began. Now throw on top of this a World Wide oil shortage of unprecedented proportions on top of it...and well...

....if this happens, this conflict could go global into a full blown World War (WW3)...especially if the U.S. gets hit with another terrorist attack like a nuclear weapon.

How the conflict in the Middle East may end: ...Peace talks with Israel, Hamas and Israel's neighbors reach a détente, and peace accord will be signed in Jerusalem, dividing the land of Israel between the Jews and Palestinians.

A certain man, possibly of Middle Eastern descent, rises as peacemaker and mediator between Jew and Muslim who Jews and Muslims will listen to. Israel gains control of the Temple mount in a peace for land deal that allows the establishment of the State of Palestine...and reconstruction of the Temple begins. (A covenant with many is established) Israel has peace for 3-1/2 years while the rest of the world remains in total chaos.

Bill H. R. 645 is passed unanimously, and becomes law, which directs the Secretary of Homeland Security to establish national emergency centers on military installations…commonly known as FEMA camps.

The global economy had finally and totally collapsed, and with it the entire world is plunged into a darkness deeper than night, and into the steely grips of a great depression not seen since the beginning of time.

With a world wide shortage of crude oil, there is little to no fuel for trucks, cars, jets, ocean liners, or any kind of transport...which means not much food delivered for grocery stores or any other goods and services for that matter.

Civil disorder, rioting, violence, looting, hoarding and panic erupts in every city, leading to the declaration of martial law in many countries. Militaries are called in to quell civil unrest, and riot police in full battle gear engage civilians in every city to disperse the hungry, homeless and rioting masses.

In America, the President goes on primetime television to address the nation. With both hands raised in the air, he urges calm in the midst of chaos. With a stern face, he urges submission to the authorities and compliance to the “Declaration of Martial Law”...saying: “do not leave your homes”, and “do not to give into our common enemies” and, that “this crisis will soon pass”, and promising food and humanitarian aid, little or none arrives. As time passes, more civilian-police clashes occur, and even more are detained.

It gets worse…

Civil disorder, hoarding, rioting, violence and looting begins in earnest, in every city…as people are hungry and suffering. Many have lost their homes and possessions due to the mortgage/credit crisis. Massive hyperinflation kicks in, and Congress calls an emergency session to deal with and to mitigate the fallout of a terrible and great depression. Congress bans hoarding under threat of prosecution; anyone caught would be immediately incarcerated and sent to a FEMA detention center where they will be processed and possibly detained.

Gangs of Civil rioters roam the streets, looting businesses, and looting peoples homes for food. These continue to break out all over…as gangs of rioters’ loot, rape, murder and pillage.

The riots get severe and violent. Police and military forces use tear-gas, rubber bullets and concussion grenades to disperse the angry crowds. The military brings in microwave crowd dispersion units, tanks and armored personnel carriers, and begin to patrol city streets to enforce the Declaration of Martial Law.

More protests erupt against the police and the military because of the brutality in which they enforce Martial Law. This leads to limited armed combat between armed civilians and the military. Police immediately arrest all the dissenters, who are then taken away to unknown locations. High schools and civic centers are flooded with the dead and wounded.

Many people are caught out on the streets after curfew, and are forced into FEMA concentration camps, as the military takes over complete control of all civil authority, with the full authorization of congress and of the President.

People at home are ordered to stay inside for an indefinite periods of time during armed conflicts, many of them missing loved ones, who may have been detained on the streets while looking for food, or taken into camps to some discreet unknown location.

Strict curfews are put into affect, as streets quickly turn into ghost towns. The reality of another American civil war has now been realized. America is at War, not with another nation, but with its own people…especially against those who oppose the President and his policies.

Some Christian groups consolidate, who become very vocal, and form a third national party to oppose the President, and offer an alternative to the Republicans and Democrats. This movement begins to take root nationally, but is soon defeated by the powers that be. This movement will be viewed/branded as civil insurrection in ALL mass media…because of all the chaos that will exist at the time.

Blame and persecution begins against Christians. Media presents the Christian groups as the ones who put GW Bush into power, who will be blamed for leaving current administration with all the mess to clean up. Christians will soon be blamed for the Global Economic Crisis. Christians were deliberately set up…in order to remove them as any future political threat to the globalists, and their New World Order agenda. Laws will be passed in order to ensure Christian groups will no longer be able to influence any politics or election. Persecution begins in earnest.

It gets worse…

Dissent grows and opposition to the President is voiced, but especially among Christians who oppose the Presidents anti-Christian policies and the New World Order that he and other World Leaders represents.

…But it is not the Christians who are violent, who riot and loot and commit heinous crimes. Nevertheless, Christians will be blamed for everything that has gone wrong in the world, for all the civil unrest, and for all the economic chaos, and for all the woes that have come on the world.

It will become a very difficult and hard time for a Christian during this time…brother shall betray brother; children shall betray their parents, and the love of many will grow cold.

Christians are now called the dissenters, and persecution begins against them in earnest in every city. Christian churches are burned, and Christians will be killed. Christians are forced to leave the cities, or go underground and meet in secret places. FEMA pastors tell Christians to go to the FEMA camps for their own protection...the ultimate betrayal for which they will surely give an account. These are but just the beginning of sorrows that are to come...

~~~

A nuclear terrorist strike hits from out of nowhere, leaving hundreds of thousands dead or dying in the streets. Retaliation begins in earnest against those believed to be the perpetrators.

In no time at all, battles are being fought over the skies of America. The sky rains down missiles, bombs, and unknown weapons of mass destruction. More land is destroyed, and even more people die. Yet the end is not yet…nuclear war has begun, and several American cities are struck with nuclear terror.

Cities are destroyed as are rural lands, and radiation clouds fill the skies. The air becomes poisonous to breathe and the water too toxic to drink. America finally collapses and merges with Canada and Mexico in a common union… World War III ends quickly, but billions the world over have perished in the blink of an eye

…yet the end is not yet.

From the ashes of WW3, arises a new world political and economic order; the purpose of the World War was only to consolidate power globally, in the hands of a very select few, into a one world economic global totalitarian system; all compliments of the global elite.

They, the international bankers and intellectual elite of the world, want to consolidate their assets under one roof so to speak. They will give their power to one man, who will lead the world, and they give all of their resources to him…the same one who made "the covenant with many" in Israel. He is the Antichrist.

They begin their reign of terror by getting rid of the dissenters first…the Christians. This ruler will cause all people to receive a mark on their right hand or forehead, and those who will not receive the mark, will be summarily put to death. This is how he finds the Christians, he uses the bible against them, because he knows they will never take the mark...he is evil incarnate.

Those Christians that have survived the nuclear war, who have seen rivers of blood, who have endured incessant pain and terror, are now faced with state sponsored persecution, roundups, and the death camps.

Police vans drive through streets, and police speak though loud speakers, ordering people out of their homes" THIS IS THE POLICE, YOU MUST VACATE YOUR PREMISIS, THIS IS FOR YOUR OWN SAFETY, YOU MUST COMPLY, DISOBEDIANCE WILL NOT BE TOLERATED" They begin marking the population with the mark of the beast, Just like marking cattle for ownership.

Mass house raids are made into people’s homes; kicking doors down, grabbing hold of the Christian dissenters…they check each house one by one in every city to check who has, and who does not have the mark. - Christian men, women and children are hurried out of their homes, regardless of their condition. Entire families are rounded up, and told that they are to be re-housed in temporary cities...FEMA camps.

In hundreds, perhaps thousands of concentration camps all over America and the world, countless millions of Christians sit in crowded, cold places, shaken with terror, cold, hungry, thirsty, stripped of their freedom and dignity…but the Lord is with them in their hour of trial, and the strength of the Holy Spirit sustains them and fills them with a supernatural calm and comfort, and with the comfort of the love of God.

These saints overcome the Antichrist by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony, and they love not their lives unto death. The Nazi holocausts return globally, as Christians are summarily put to their deaths, just as the Jews were during WWII.

During the time of unprecedented persecution and murder of Christians, and in the midst of all the global chaos, there will be a an unprecedented revival and a move of the Spirit of God, ...such as has not been seen to this day...So powerful will be this move of God - for God shall pour out of His Holy Spirit to strengthen and purify the Bride of the Lamb, that she may be holy and pure - without spot or blemish, her gown will be white....many will turn to the Lord during this time in this global revival.

The Prophet Daniel said...but such as do wickedly against the covenant shall the Antichrist pervert by flatteries; but the people that know their God shall be strong, and do exploits. And they that are wise among the people shall instruct many; yet they shall fall by the sword and by flame, by captivity and by spoil, many days.

Now when they shall fall, they shall be helped with a little help; but many shall join themselves unto them with flatteries. And some of them that are wise shall fall, to refine them, and to purify, and to make them white, even to the time of the end; because it is yet for the time appointed.

And the king [Antichrist] shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvelous things against the God of gods; and he shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished; for that which is determined shall be done. Neither shall he regard the gods of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god; for he shall magnify himself above all. ...And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High.

Small groups of Christians survive the holocaust against them and still roam around the streets; some have even fled into the wilderness into encampments and help each other. Helicopter raids are made to locate these free Christians, in order to route them out and to exterminate them. Police search every household over again, and again, until they have routed out all the dissenters (Christians).

Any form of money, gold, or silver will all be worthless and useless to the Christian, because you cannot buy or sell anything unless you have the mark of the beast. And those who have the mark of the beast will turn the Christians dissenters in to the authorities when they try to buy or sell.

Many Christians still in their homes, hiding in their basements or hidden under floorboards, are rounded up with violence. They are treated inhumanly, teased, taunted and humiliated. Some are even executed on the spot right in the streets in broad daylight before all.

it gets worse still...

Many homeless Christians roam around in the wilderness, with nothing on them, no food and no water to drink; they have nowhere to go. They are starved, thirsty and cold, and many just cannot cope anymore with the trauma, and just give themselves up. The weather does not help their condition either; the winters gets colder and colder as time progresses.

Strange weather phenomenon begins to show up, and the weather continues to deteriorate globally - rains fall flooding the lands, then heavy snows fall, blizzards pound, the earth quakes and volcanoes erupt. So terrible will be the Tribulation against the Saints, but the Lord Jesus stands by them, as they make ready and wash their garments in the blood of the lamb, and are made as white as snow...for the Bride makes herself ready.

And because of Starvation, dehydration, no shelter, climatic changes, earthquakes, floods, blizzards, hurricanes, extreme cold, extreme heat, separation anxiety (loved ones missing), demoralization, nuclear war and persecution, the morale of the Christian survivors falls even lower and lower; more give themselves up...and those who receive not the mark of the beast are summarily put to death. Some Christians die in the painful colds of the death camps awaiting their execution, either from starvation or exposure to the elements.

Blessed and holy are those who have the victory over the beast, over his image, and over his mark and over the number of his name. Blessed and holy are those who overcome him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony, who love not their lives unto death.

Those Christians that survive and remain to the end, until the Lord comes, have learned to work together, to love each other, to help each other in time of need, and have learned to trust in God who preserves them, and keeps them from the hour of trial…these are full of faith, good works and full the joy and comfort of the Holy Spirit.

And then …as fast as the lightning comes out of the east, and shines even unto the west, the Lord Jesus Himself descends from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

During the time, when the wrath of God is being poured out on those who received the mark of the beast, comes the vengeance of God...because these are who murdered His saints, and who brought destruction to the Earth.

God gives power to His two witnesses who will be clothed in sackcloth. These two prophets curse the Earth with all manner of plagues, these have power to shut heaven so that it rains not during their testimony, and they have power to turn water into blood, and to smite the Earth with all manner of plagues as often as they wish. Then comes the bowls of the wrath of God on the world. Woe to the inhabitants of the earth at this time.

Not all people during the Great Tribulation took the mark of the beast. By the grace of God, a remnant of man remains on earth to the end when the Lord sets up His Millennial Kingdom.

The time known as the Great Tribulation is close at hand, it is even at the gate...

This time is coming into focus now: World economies are beginning to collapse; there has been strange weather phenomenon showing up globally; massive record breaking hurricanes; there has been a substantial and devastating increase in earthquakes around the world; Tsunamis killing hundreds of thousands, wars and rumors of wars, nation against nation and kingdom against kingdom...the beginning of the fall of MBG(Mystery Babylon the Great.)

MBG is not a city...

I do not consider the "physical cities" like NY or London as being MBG...no more then I would consider a Church building as being the elect Lady. Physical cities of brick and mortar will fall, which is not MBG. Mystery Babylon the Great the mother of harlots is people.

There are two women (two bodies), one is the Lamb's Bride, and the other is the Harlot.

One is the body of elect body of believers, the other is the body of lost humanity. One is by faith, the other is of unbelief.

Sarah and Hagar are types of Bride and Harlot - one was of faith and belief, the other was of doubt and unbelief. From one would come our Lord and savior Jesus the Messiah, from the other would come the son of perdition, who exalts himself above God - the Antichrist. The Harlot shall not prevail over the Bride.

Rev 17:18 says -
And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth.

Rev 16:19 says - Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.

Mystert Babylon the Great is divided into 3 parts that God will destroy - "to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath."

1. Material Wealth - destroyed by economic collapse, famine and destruction of all infrastructure.

2. People - Destruction of the bodies and souls of men (Wars and Calamities)

3. Rule and Dominion - satan takes over of dominion of the Earth from MBG, just before the Lord returns to take it from him - click here to see: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2018:2;&version=50;

All of Revelation 18, describes Revelation 16:19 in detail.

What is coming the destruction of Mystery Babylon the Great, which is the rule and dominion of man on Earth, and will never rise again. God will take back the dominion He gave man, and The Lord Jesus will come and set up His millennial kingdom in Israel. Therefore, God Himself will take up dominion on Earth, and rule with a rod of iron from Jerusalem in a restored Israel. Man will never again self rule, or have dominion on earth again forever and ever.

~~~

The time is short now, and the day is far spent, for the great and terrible day of the Lord does come...the day in which He shall judge the nations in righteousness. The day in which the sinner and the ungodly are to be removed forever.

And he shall sit on the throne of his glory, and He judge the nations in righteousness; for the sum of all judgment is given to that Son of Man.
And He shall cause the sinners to be removed and to be destroyed from off the face of the earth. With an adamantine chain of God's fixed decree shall they be bound, and in their assemblage-place of destruction shall they be imprisoned, and all their works shall vanish from the face of the earth, for in righteousness does He judge and make war. And from henceforth there shall be nothing corruptible; for that Son of Man has appeared in power and great glory, and has seated himself on the throne of his eternal glory. And He reigns forever, and His kingdom is forever and ever. Amen

And He shall take to Him His great power, and the heavens and the earth shall be shaken, and He shall rule the nations with a rod of iron. All evil shall pass away from before his face, for who shall abide the great and terrible day of the Lord? And the word of that Son of Man shall go forth, and be strong before the Father of Spirits, and the sum of all judgment is given to that Son of Man. Blessed and holy are those whose sins are forgiven, who have washed their clothes in the blood of the Lamb; blessed and holy are those whose names have been written down in heaven; for when He shall appear, they likewise, shall appear with Him in honor and in great glory.

Earendel,

Are you the one that started the divorce thread? :-P Now here you go again!! (I'm just kidding with you. I KNOW it wasn't you!)

I see that you have only 12 posts to your name; but you should know that it's a toss up between this topic and KJ Only as to which can get as ugly as the divorce thread!! :-P

I will comment more later, I'm running out the door. But from what I quickly read, you believe that Christians are going to be here? If so, we are finally in agreement!

God bless you brother!

Natan4Jesus wrote:

are you willing to die with me?

Yes!!

We are living in the most exciting time in the history of mankind! It will separate the men from boys, so to speak. I pray to be a man/woman of God during that time (beginning now)!!

God bless,

Natan4Jesus wrote:
what a wonderful time that will be to LIVE and Preach the Gospel!!!

How precious each Bible will be!!!

How powerful each hidden prayer meeting will be!!

It will be a TIME OF TRUE GLORY!!

Will it be nightmarishly hard times? Yes! But it is those times when people will suddenly realize what it means to be TOTALLY DEPENDENT on God.

It'll be Glory.

are you willing to die with me?

neil

It will be glory!! I love the sweet presence of the Holy Spirit...His peace, His Joy, His comfort, His Glory overshadows me.

The saints will laugh in the face of adversity, and triumph in victory in the face the antichrist. I'm not saying that there will not be adversity, most of humanity will perish during this time; what I am saying is that God will stand by the saints in their hour of trial.

They shall be strong in the Lord, and they will not fear their deaths, just as the Hebrew Children were cast into the fire because they did not bow down to an idol...and the Lord met them in the midst of the fire. The Lord will cause His Holy Spirit to light each one with a holy light, and His glory shall be seen on their faces, and a holy calm will embrace each one. They shall all be raised in the Lord's triumph over the antichrist, and satan will be bound for a thousand years time. They shall decend to Earth on white horses in a glorious triumph in their glorified bodies!

THE MEEK SHALL INHERIT THE EARTH!!

Even as Enoch wrote concerning the righteous elect...

Blessed are ye, ye righteous and elect,
For glorious shall be your lot.

And the righteous shall be in the light of the sun,
And the elect in the light of eternal life:
The days of their life shall be unending,
And the days of the holy without number.

And they shall seek the light and find righteousness with the Lord of Spirits:
There shall be peace to the righteous in the name of the Eternal Lord.

And after this shall be said to the holy in heaven
That they should seek out the secrets of righteousness, the heritage of faith:
For it has become bright as the sun upon earth,
And the darkness is past.

And there shall be a light that never endeth,
And to a limit (lit. number) of days they shall not come,
For the darkness shall first have been destroyed,
[And the light established before the Lord of Spirits]
And the light of uprightness established for ever before the Lord of Spirits .

Lysa wrote:

Natan4Jesus wrote:

are you willing to die with me?

Yes!!

We are living in the most exciting time in the history of mankind! It will separate the men from boys, so to speak. I pray to be a man/woman of God during that time (beginning now)!!

God bless,

David Wilkerson has seen the begining of this time:
http://davidwilkersontoday.blogspot.com/2009/03/urgent-message.html

Compare his Urgent Message with my original post in this thread; we are close to this time now. I know what I posted is not a happy scene but rather depressing. It will not be a fun time during the Great Tribulation, but it will be full of Glory for the saints. We must stick together and be the bride that He has called us to be.

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor shall be.

When is "then" in this Word spoken by the Word made flesh?

And upon whom would this come?

Our answer to both these questions from Him Who spoke from Sinai!

Luke 21:20-22 But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Matthew 23:35-36 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

The saints of old testify to these truths as well.

Here are some of such testimony from our brothers in the faith of Christ:

"The forbearance of God with his covenant people, who had crucified their own Saviour, reached it last its limit. As many as could be saved in the usual way, were rescued. The mass of the people had obstinately set themselves against all improvement. James the Just, the man who was fitted, if any could be, to reconcile the Jews to the Christian religion, had been stoned by his hardened brethren, for whom he daily interceded in the temple; and with him the Christian community in Jerusalem had lost its importance for that city. The hour of the "great tribulation" and fearful judgment drew near. The prophecy of the Lord approached its literal fulfilment: Jerusalem was razed to the ground, the temple burned, and not one stone was left upon another."(Philip Schaff, 1877)

"For there shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." Read the record written by Josephus of the destruction of Jerusalem, and see how truly our Lord’s words were fulfilled. The Jews impiously said, concerning the death of Christ, "His blood be on us, and on our children." Never did any other people invoke such an awlful curse upon themselves, and upon no other nation did such a judgment ever fall. We read of Jews crucified till there was no more wood for making crosses; of thousands of the people slaying one another in their fierce faction fights within the city; of so many of them being sold for slaves that they became a drug in the market, and all but valueless; and of the fearful carnage when the Romans at length entered the doomed capital; and the blood-curdling story exactly bears out the Savior’s statement uttered nearly forty years before the terrible events occurred."
(C.H. Spurgeon, 1888)

"It is fitting to add to these accounts the true prediction of our Saviour in which he foretold these very events. His words are as follows: "Woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day; For there shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

"These things took place in this manner in the second year of the reign of Vespasian, in accordance with the prophecies of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, who by divine power saw them beforehand as if they were already present, and wept and mourned according to the statement of the holy evangelists, who give the very words which be uttered, when, as if addressing Jerusalem herself, he said: "If thou hadst known, even thou, in this day, the things which belong unto thy peace! But now they are hid from thine eyes. For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a rampart about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, and shall lay thee and thy children even with the ground."(Eusebius,AD 325)

"Note how this speech is directed against the Jews; for when these things were done by Vespasian, the Apostles could neither observe the Sabbath nor fly, seeing most of them were already dead, and those who survived were living in distant countries. And why they should pray for this He adds a reason, "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor shall be.

I ask the Jews, whence came upon them so grievous wrath from heaven more woeful than all that had come upon them before? Plainly it was because of the desperate crime and the denial of the Cross. But He shews that they deserved still heavier punishment than they received, when He adds, "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved;" that is, If the siege by the Romans should be continued longer, all the Jews would perish; for by "all flesh," He means all the Jewish nation, those within and those without; for the Romans were at war not only with those in Judaea, but with the whole race wherever dispersed.

Then, to show again the greatness of the calamity, He saith, "Pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day. For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world until now, neither shall be." Seest thou that His discourse is addressed to the Jews, and that He is speaking of the ills that should overtake them? For the apostles surely were not to keep the Sabbath day, neither to be there, when Vespasian did those things. For indeed the most part of them were already departed this life. And if any was left, he was dwelling then in other parts of the world.

And let not any man suppose this to have been spoken hyperbolically; but let him study the writings of Josephus, and learn the truth of the sayings. For neither can any one say, that the man being a believer, in order to establish Christ's words, hath exaggerated the tragical history. For indeed He was both a Jew, and a determined Jew, and very zealous, and among them that lived after Christ's coming. I should therefore be glad to inquire of the Jews. Whence came there thus upon them wrath from God intolerable, and more sore than all that had befallen aforetime, not in Judaea only, but in any part of the world? Is it not quite clear, that it was for the deed of the cross, and for this rejection? All would say it, and with all and before all the truth of the facts itself."
(Chrysostom, AD 347)

"Immediately after the great tribulation which is to accompany the catastrophe, or in those very days, the Son of man is to be seen coming in the clouds with great power and glory. His coming is described according to the Hebrew apocalyptic style; and then it is solemnly affirmed with an emphatic Amen or Verily, "This generation shall not pass away till all these things be accomplished " (Mark 13:30; Matt. 24:34; Luke 16:32). It would seem from all this that the occasion and scope of this prophecy are clear beyond controversy. It was preceded by many a word of rebuke and warning to the hypocritical scribes and Pharisees, and a terrible woe pronounced against Jerusalem, the murderess of saints and prophets. The time-limit so emphatically asserted accords perfectly with the assurance given on another occasion that some of those who listened to the great Teacher should not die till they had seen the Son of man coming in his kingdom." (Milton Terry, 1898)

"Was not the judgment and sad conflagration of Jerusalem, and destruction of the Jewish church and nation, an assurance of the judgment to come ; when the expressions whereby it is described are such as, you think, meant nothing else but that final judgment? As, ' Christ's coming: coming in clouds, in his glory, in his kingdom : — the day of the Lord; the great and terrible day of the Lord : — the end of the world ; the end of all things : — the sun darkened ; the moon not giving light: — the stars falling from heaven, and the powers of heaven shaken: —the sign of the Son of man appearing in heaven: — heaven departing as a scroll rolled together, and every mountain and hill removed out of its place,' &c. You would think, they meant nothing but the last and universal judgment; whereas their meaning, indeed, is Christ's coming in judgment and vengeance against the Jewish city and nation; but a fore-signification also of the last judgment...

That the destruction of Jerusalem is very frequently expressed in Scripture as if it were the destruction of the whole world, Deuteronomy 32:22; "A fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell" (the discourse there is about the wrath of God consuming that people; see verses 20,21), "and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains." Jeremiah 4:23; "I beheld the earth, and lo, it was without form and void; and the heavens, and they had no light," &c. The discourse there also is concerning the destruction of that nation, Isaiah 65:17; "Behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered," &c. And more passages of this sort among the prophets. According to this sense, Christ speaks in this place; and Peter speaks in his Second Epistle, third chapter; and John, in the sixth of the Revelation; and Paul, 2 Corinthians 5:17,&c...

The destruction of Jerusalem is phrased in Scripture as the destruction of the whole world; and Christ's coming to her in judgment, as his coming to the last judgment. Therefore, those dreadful things, spoken of in Matt. 24:29,30 and 31, are but borrowed expressions, to set forth the terms of that judgment the more.. v.30 - "then shall they see" - not any visible appearance of Christ, or of the cross, in the clouds (as some have imagined); but, whereas Jews would not own Christ before for the Son of Man, or for the Messias, then by the vengeance that he should execute upon them, they and all the world should see an evident sign, and it was so. This, therefore, is called "his coming," and his coming in his kingdom...

for wheresoever the carcase is, &c. I wonder any can understand these words of pious men flying to Christ, when the discourse here is of quite a different thing: they are thus connected to the foregoing: Christ shall be revealed with a sudden vengeance; for when God shall cast off the city and people, grown ripe for destruction, like a carcase thrown out, the Roman soldiers, like eagles, shall straight fly to it with their eagles (ensigns) to tear and devour it. And to this also agrees the answer of Christ, Luke 27:37; when, after the same words that are spoken here in this chapter, it was inquired, 'Where, Lord?' he answered, 'Wheresoever the body is: &c.; silently hinting thus much, that Jerusalem, and that wicked nation which he described through the whole chapter, would be the carcase, to which the greedy and devouring eagles would fly to prey upon it...

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man. Then shall the Son of man give a proof of himself, who they would not before acknowledge: a proof, indeed, not in any visible figure, but in vengeance and judgment so visible, that all the tribes of the earth shall be forced to acknowledge him the avenger. The Jews would not know him: now they shall know him, whether they will or no, Isa. xxvi. II. Many times they asked of him a sign: now a sign shall appear, that he is the true Messiah, whom they despised, derided, and crucified, namely, his signal vengeance and fury, such as never any nation felt from the first foundations of the world...

This generation shall not pass, &c. Hence it appears plain enough, that the foregoing verses are not to be understood of the last judgment but, as we said, of the destruction of Jerusalem. There were some among the disciples (particularly John), who lived to see these things come to pass. With Matt. 16:28, compare John 21:22. And there were some Rabbins alive at the time when Christ spoke these things, that lived till the city was destroyed, viz. Rabban Simeon, who perished with the city, R. Jochanan Ben Zaccai, who outlived it, R. Zadoch, R. Ishmael, and others." (John Lightfoot(1601-1675))

Believe what you will but do not call it God's Truth!

the saints are raptured before the tribulation.
The erroneous concept of the rapture happening after the tribulation is an impossibility.

The marriage supper happens in heaven immediately before the return of Jesus with his bride.

Antichrist murders almost everybody that is saved but left after the rapture,leaving almost zero saints for the concept of the posttrib rapture.

Also if you examine the posttrib model NO SAINTS see heaven. They would meet a returning King (not groom) on his way to earth with riderless horses to pick up the saints that would do an about face to earth.

Look closely at the bride/bridegroom and you will notice Gods purposes are not tribulation oriented but , like on earth, Gods focus is on his bride.

Jesus said ".....but pray that you might be counted worthy to escape the things that are about to come upon the world"

The whole purpose of the rapture is for Jesus to come for his bride.

quote'
" It will not be a fun time during the Great Tribulation, but it will be full of Glory for the saints. We must stick together and be the bride that He has called us to be."

There will be no bride on earth. The marriage supper happens in heaven.
By the time Jesus mounts his horse she is no longer called his bride ,but in fact,in rev. "for his wife has made herself ready"
The time of the bride is over by the time Jesus returns,at the end of the trib ,with his wife ,all on white horses.

There simply will be nobody to rapture. The tares will have taken the mark and the nominal Christians that go through the tribulation are martyred way before the end of the tribulation.

There is absolutely no way to make a posttrib rapture fit.

After David Wilkerson's prophecy was posted I did a bit more reading in the Word to refresh my memory about the end times and what one may reasonably expect. Matthew 10:22 jumped out at me: Jesus says his children will be hated by ALL men..The word ALL, not 'some' or a 'few' but ALL. No one can seek any refuge, any comfort from any government, any one in a position of power. Serious....

"FEMA camps"....years ago some prophets were declaring that shopping malls will be converted into prisons to house Christians ....So for years I avoided malls for the reason that I feared the secret police would make a surprise attack on the mall I was in...

The reality is the things you posted is already the reality of many Christians in some parts of the globe or have been in the past 100 years. The reality is also that things will not get any better regardless of your interpretation of eschatology..

So, let's be sober and be ready for that day...and to get ready is to be faithful in the little things that confront us that work to sideline us.

Blessings,
ginnyrose

i think an interesting observation is that that only in those parts of the world where there is no persecution or very little do they belive in pre rapture, i suspect our flesh comforts itself with such doctrines, the more then 50 millions of martys where not raptured. why would we be? we all ready many of us live the most comfortable lifes of all christians throughout all history.

its a matter of getting ready now,the way of the cross is foolishness... the way of death, filling up the sufferings that remain. not that we are worthy, to suffer for him, but is it his will for me i want to embrace it with heavenly joy.

god give us light and grace.

Here's an interesting video about the Tribulation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjbh_e-hArY&feature=related

hmmhmm wrote:
i think an interesting observation is that that only in those parts of the world where there is no persecution or very little do they belive in pre rapture,

In the [b]4 world leaders call for single currency[/b] thread someone wrote: [i]This is something that does not surprise me. But it does surprise me that is appears to be happening so soon.[/i]

I think we are going to be seeing a lot of things that happens a lot sooner than anyone thought it should.

That old hymn, "Oh I want to see Him"... "As I journey through the land singing as I go, pointing souls to Calvary through the crimson flow, many arrows pierce my soul from without within, but my Lord pulls ahead, through Him I will win!"

Amen!!

[i]Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written:
c“For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”
37 dYet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor eprincipalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

(Rom 8:35-39). [/i]

Earendel wrote:
The book of Revelation does not give us what day to day life will be like for the Christian during the time known as the Great Tribulation, only that is will be a slaughter of humanity.

Many homeless Christians roam around in the wilderness, with nothing on them, no food and no water to drink; they have nowhere to go. They are starved, thirsty and cold, and many just cannot cope anymore with the trauma, and just give themselves up. The weather does not help their condition either; the winters gets colder and colder as time progresses.

Revelation 11.9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
Revelation 11.10 Those who dwell on the earth rejoice over them, and they will be glad. They will give gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.

I think this leans toward proving that people may not be roaming with no food or no water but will still be buying and selling and watching cable or satelite tv in the comfort of their nice warm houses! I realize this may not be the Christians, 1/2 of the true believers could be dead.

I don't know it seems that life as we know could be going on as usual. Because the Word does say that, "Those who dwell on the earth rejoice over" the two dead witnesses. The world can't rejoice if they don't have their tv's and cable hooked up so they can watch them for three days. It's just something to think about.

I have listened recently (within the last three years) to David Pawson and Zac Poonen, they both have Revelation series that are excellent and long, 10 sessions or more. Now, I don't agree 100% with everything they say but I like their perspective, they think out-of-the-box, that's right up my alley!

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=528]David Pawson[/url]

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=157&min=280&orderby=titleA&show=20]Zac Poonen[/url]

I think your scenario is off just a tad but I also realize mine is no better!! *grin* I think where I really differ from most is that I believe that Christians are going in both of the resurrections. How so? Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first! That statement alone makes me there's another part that didn't make the muster; because He doesn't say if you don't go in this one, you're not going. They could be going... just not in this one!

And the books are pulled out for the second resurrection, if we automatically get a get-out-of-hell-free card then we should by have gone with the ones who went in the first. And if the unbelievers get a go-straight-to-hell card, why the judgment if they are going to hell anyway? To me that doesn't make sense but I know my beliefs on the subject are not written in stone and are subject to be changed!

Well, let me tell you how I got to this belief, I was heavily into the post trib thing and surviving this world, never mind what the Bible said!! And the Lord showed me that when He was coming - it was of no consequence but what WAS of consequence was my condition, was I blessed and holy to take part in the first resurrection?

[i]Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.[/i]
Revelation 20:6

I believe at the time He was preparing me to (hopefully) get into spiritual shape that I might attain to the first resurrection. That's what I'm shooting for anyway, only the Lord knows if I'll get there but I do know that He gave me warning and if I don't make it, it will be my own fault because I didn't rule and reign over my flesh on this earth. If I can't rule and reign over this flesh now before I die? How in the world can I be found able to rule and reign as a priest of God and of Christ during the 1,000 year reign? Like I said, that's just how He showed me.

One more thing that goes with your scenario I think is they say that history repeats itself... we need to remember that when Nero wanted to rebuild Rome he burned it down and blamed the Christians solidifying their persecution. I'd say we could be blamed for something as well, it's going to have to be pretty big, but they'll do their best to pin it on us.

Most importantly, Earendel, even if it does get as bad as your scenario says or even worse; the Word was written for us today as our example; to remind us of what the Lord has done for His people, how He is still doing it and how He will continue to do it tomorrrow because He is the SAME yesterday, today and forever! Amen! Hallelujah!!

PS:
I didn't want anyone to think I disliked their statements (if they made any) but I won't be writing for awhile, it's a God thing. He's really showing me I'm wasting His time and mine sitting in front of this screen. He's been showing me for awhile but I've ignored Him and now I have to repent and spend time with my first love!!

God bless you all!!

quote;
"i think an interesting observation is that that only in those parts of the world where there is no persecution or very little do they believe in pre rapture, i suspect our flesh comforts itself with such doctrines,....."

I would also think it interesting that those that seek approval for their erroneous doctrine that is unscriptural would turn to the consensus of the world to establish their desire for persecution.

I wonder if those that take a position erroneously,that the rapture ,(catching away) takes place at the end of the tribulation period,ever even bother to examine their own bibles.

It would appear to me that the post trib doctrine originated from the need to appease any brother that has suffered from tribulation,as if appeasement is the highest ground.

To just assume some doctrine is worthy of belief because someone died or suffered is great,great error.
No sir,i will not surrender sound doctrine to appease any teacher or group.

Experiences that Christians have, have been pigeon holed incorrectly to form doctrine.

It is so good to be able to pray this prayer with Jesus;
Luke 21; 36
"Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. "

It is a sad day when the consensus of the brethren prevent the church from agreeing with the king.

rev 22;12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

13I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
17And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
20He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

21The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

This prayer came from the throne room of God and it is interesting it is the final prayer of the bible.
Jesus is leaving his church with a prayer that teachers and promoters of error have erased from the heart of the church

Overall, Earendel, I see some of the very things you do, and I heartily agree with you, that the Church shall go THROUGH the great Tribulation. Zac Poonen, in his Revelation series, brings out some good points. "Who are these?"....[a great multitude no man can number..]..."These are those who CAME OUT of great tribulation..", and pointing out that they went in, and then came out.

look closely at these verses;
9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

These are martyrs,killed by Antichrist
now these verses
9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

11And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

12Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

16They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

17For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Now note that it is not until rev 22 that Jesus comes with his wife (from heaven martyrs included)to slay Antichrist.

If the rapture happens at the return on white horses then 1 thes is pure heresy,because when the white horse riders appear the dead are already on the horses when they leave heaven.

Now THIS is TRUTH -

He says nobody can find a single scripture that says "my people do not go through the trib"

Jesus said ".....but pray that you might be counted worthy to escape the things that are about to come upon the world"

All pretrib doctrine came from a little girls dream?
under this logic I could say "all Christians in Africa only got saved by watching billy graham"
This nonsense has been debunked long ago.

Another favorite he uses,The early church didn't expect the soon coming.....also debunked

I never cease to wonder,why are the extra biblical fairy tales and belittling misrepresentations almost always brought in?

LET US KEEP IN MIND THAT TIMES AND WHEN OR HOW IS OF LITTLE IMPORTANCE.

let us be blessed and do what it says, even if we have understanding or think we do, that understanding is worth very little in it self, there where two trees in the garden, and as adam and eve chose wrongly so often we chose the wrong tree, we want knowledge, some to follow christ that is good, others want knowledge to teach others that is bad.

When we read revelation there is much that is hard to get, even for the most spiritual of us. But the beginnig of the book says blessed are those who reads and know when and how....

no.... it says...

Revelation 1:3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near. (Rev 1:3 NKJ)

those who keep what is written in the book of revelation, these are important, these people will be blessed, for a long time i was in the group who wanted to know for the sake of knowing, that was my flesh, stimulating my mind and intellect and puffing my self up with knowledge, producing no life and no doing, made me quote a lot of verses to try persuade others to my position.

now i try to focus on keeping and doing what is written, and God will bless me, and the main theme i discovered in revelation is not tribulation, antichrist, the mark or beasts or any such thing, but overcoming.

overcoming sin,

pride

hypocrisy

lovelessness

anger

the world and the world system

religion (man made)

tradition

and on and on.

blessed are those who keep the things that are written in the book of revelation, if ypou want a fruitful and edifying study and also thread here, we should talk about what things are we to keep?

that will bless us and unite us as believers to an overcoming church and body.

because if you are an overcomer, when and how is very little importance, since when ever God comes back, you are all ready an overcomer, before or after or in the middle, i am not afraid of the tribulation, i have no desire to escape it, i dont consider my self higher or of more importance then the millions who where counted as sheep for the slaughter that i would escape what they did not. but if Gods wisdom is to take me out before may it be so, but it does not matter, the book of the end times teach us that we need to overcome, and if you want to be a blessed man, we need to keep those things written therein.

Meaning: 1) to attend to carefully, take care of 1a) to guard 1b) metaph. to keep, one in the state in which he is 1c) to observe 1d) to reserve: to undergo something
Origin: from teros (a watch, perhaps akin to 2334); TDNT - 8:140,1174; v
Usage: AV - keep 57, reserve 8, observe 4, watch 2, preserve 2, keeper 1, hold fast 1; 75
Misc: For Synonyms see entry 5874

Ummmm...yeah, I listened to the sermon from David Powlison. While I agree with his perspective on the eery error of Dispensational, pre-trib rapturism, I do think he may just need to come a little more prepared next time. He also goes on to make quite a few inferences based on his personal preferences...not scripture. Then holds it to be biblical. It was hard to listen to...

Hello hmmhmm,

I had only skimmed through your excellent post the other day and then practically could not find it again. Whew, all is well, I have copied it and have it on my hard drive. I may even list the main points on a few 4 x 6 cards and carry it with me. What a treasure chest it is.

Thank you for posting it, Praising Jesus, for I am sure it came from Him, as all good things do.

white stone

i aill amen your post Brothertom, brother Poonens teaching on revelation is great, no matter what you believe or what position you hold as when christ is coming, poonens preaching on revelation is outstanding, so simple so deep and so practical.

My self has been so blessed by it and as i said, it made me focus less on the knowledge part and more on the life part.

Its highly recommend series and it will bless those who want to follow Christ.

[url=http://www.cfcindia.com/web/mainpages/verse_by_verse.php?book=vbv_revelation]verse by verse (revelatioon) by zac pooonen[/url]

by savannah on 2009/3/21 5:53:18
"Was not the judgment and sad conflagration of Jerusalem, and destruction of the Jewish church and nation, an assurance of the judgment to come

Yes it is, but not the final judgement. God will judge and destroy the nations for the same reason He destroyed Jerusalem...they rejected Jesus Christ. This will occur during the "Great Tribulation" which is still pending...

Many calamities have happened since the destruction of Jerusalem that have been far worse then what happened there, and to imply otherwise through preterist prose is very short-sighted and ignorant. Look at both world wars to see what happened there as an example. The scourge of Communism has killed over 100 million alone, besides the wars, and these pale n comparison to what is coming.

There are only two bodies that are here on Earth...

There are presently two bodies that are on the Earth - "The Bride of Christ" and "The Harlot" (AKA Mystery Babylon the Great")

As we are called the "Body and/or Bride of Christ" because we are the believing "Body of the elect obedient,". The Harlot of Babylon is called so, because she is in unbelief, and is unregenerated by the Holy Spirit , she is the "Body of the Unredeemed rebellious" of Adam's fallen race which includes the false church(s).

The Body of Christ is people (elect saints); the Harlot of Babylon is also people (who reject the truth in Christ) - Two women with two very different destinies. ALL people on Earth belong to one of these two bodies and there is NO exception.

Faith is of the Holy Spirit. Unbelief is of satan the apostate spirit. To whom will we yield ourselves? To which body do we belong?

Sarah and Hagar are types of the Body of Christ (Bride of the Lamb) and the Whore of Babylon - MBG. One (Sarah) was of Faith and believing of the promise of God, the other (Hagar) is of unbelief/rebellion. From one would come the seed of promise (Isaac) from who came the Messiah, and from the other will come the son of perdition - the antichrist.

MBG (or Mystery Babylon The Great) has ruled the world since the fall of Adam; she has controlled governments and commerce and all aspects of the rule of man since the fall of Adam, and she is about to fall...when the wicked and unbelieving and unregenerated Godless are to be removed. MBG is the rule and dominion of Adam’s unredeemed fallen race (led by satan) in the spirit of rebellious unbelief.

Now concerning MBG who is NOT the Bride of the Lamb - the elect lady:

Revelation 17:4-6 (New King James Version)

4 The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the filthiness of her fornication. 5 And on her forehead a name was written:

MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

6 I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with great amazement.

Babylon's children are all the people of the earth that ever lived who are unredeemed, these make up the body of "The Harlot" and who are also called her children who are also called harlots, - they are the accursed ones. Mystery Babylon the Great (MBG) is "the body of persons, of all unregenerated/unredeemed persons of Adam’s fallen race" in the world that ever existed.

Two bodies - two women - two destinies.

Now here is a very interesting point to make and is necessary to understand why the Church, the body of Christ, goes through the Great Tribulation:

If satan/demons were bound and removed from influencing and harassing us (the Bride) in our earthly lives, would there be any temptation to sin? – I would say probably not...NO TEMPTER = NO SIN (think about that one)...but the mind still has to be renewed after Christ nonetheless.

I have always believed that satan/demons need to get permission from God first before he can tempt or even harass a saint to sin (I am reminded of the story of Job, how that satan had to get permission first, and he did this by accusing Job before God – Job 1:6-12 )…he does this to us, the heirs of salvation by accusing us constantly day and night before God, even as it written.

So what happens when satan no longer gets to accuse us day and night before God?

So if satan can no longer accuse us day and night before God, and he doesn’t get permission to tempt us to any kind of sin, what do you think will happen on the earth when the work of the Holy Spirit is unfettered from satanic hinderance in our lives? GLOBAL REVIVAL!!! (the number which no man could number)…After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, …Revelation 7:9

This is what will happen on earth, and why I believe that a “Great Revival” is coming to the earth during the “Great Tribulation”

- Ephesians 6:12 will end for us, and it will end for us…and here’s why:

And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. Rev 12:7-10 (meaning he does not get permission to accuse/tempt/harass anymore)

No accuser standing before God day and night accusing us before God means: no permission is granted to tempt a saint to sin again, or to spiritually fight against, or to harass a saint in there work, which means there will be a global revival on the earth unfettered from any satanic hindrances!!! There will be no more wrestling in the spirit with satan and his demons in high places…their day will finally be at an end! Then there will be a revival on the Earth such as never occurred before unto this time, as the Bride of the Lamb will finally be able to get herself ready.

Consider the voice of the holy angel, what he said, when satan is cast out:

Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven,

“Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come,

for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.

What this means is the Bride of the Lamb will finally be able to get herself ready without any spiritual hindrance, without any temptation to sin, without any accuser standing before God – she will get her wedding garments ready and be holy, and without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, she will have righteous works – even as it is written that she should. I will add that the Holy Spirit will be poured out as never before.

But since satan can no longer tempt and accuse, because he is thrown down to the earth with his angels, he persecutes the Bride…as her saints and her prophets are sent to martyrdom at the very hands of those whose names are not written down in the Lamb’s book of life.

…but the Lord is with them in their hour of trial, and the strength of the Holy Spirit sustains them, and fills them with a great supernatural calm, peace and comfort…there will be no fear of dying for the saints, as the Holy Spirit will sustain them.

These saints overcome satan and his antichrist by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony, and they love not their lives unto death.

Nazi style holocausts will return to the earth; this time globally, even as it written, as Christians are summarily put to their deaths in the camps, just as the Jews were during WWII. It is all that satan has left.

During this time of unprecedented revival and purification of the Bride of the Lamb, and during a time of unprecedented persecution and mass murder of Christian saints, and in the midst of all the global chaos that will be going on during the Great Tribulation, there will be a an unprecedented move of the Spirit of God in the chosen elect, …such as has not been seen to this day…So powerful and mighty will be this move of the Holy Spirit – for God shall pour out the undiluted strength of His Holy Spirit, and in the power of His strength will He will purify her, and beautify the Bride of the Lamb, that her gown may be white, that she may be holy and pure – without spot or blemish, or any such thing…her gown will be white….many will turn to the Lord during this time in this global revival, and will do so without any accuser accusing them before God day and night!

This is why I believe that the church will go through the great refiners fire of the “Great Tribulation”. There will be a “Great Revival” in the chosen elect and of the truth, and the complete destruction of the nations under satanic rule and unbelieving mankind during this time.

"To be a christian is to suffer all your life here. Why does God want you to suffer?

How can we argue this point?"

I have thought of this actually for a while and have formed somewhat of an answer. Our problem is not a God that doesn't protect or allows suffering. Our true problem is Sin, at the foundations of the Earth when Adam and Eve broke the command of God they threw our entire world into chaos. Now not to throw all the blame on Adam and Eve we are responsible as well, when we sin we face consequences at times we feel the force of others sins and are hurt by this.

God "allows" suffering because He doesn't violate our free will, He has given us the ability to choose. And so we living in a fallen world will feel the weight and shifting of this world with the pressure of continuous sins of not only ourselves but the sins of others. A small child isn't abused because they have sinned but because their parents sin. We must understand that sin and its effects go so much deeper than we realize.

We have never been garenteed a happy care-free life on the earth but infact one of many sufferings, There are however a few promises of God we can cling to in times of suffering.

He will never leave nor forsake us.
Our suffering will work out for our Good.
He who began a good work is faithful to complete this work.
Through Suffering we produce Godly character.

:) Suffering is a tough topic for Nonbelievers to understand. If only they knew there was a Loving Father that holds your hand the whole way.

by codek on 2010/12/21 2:10:37

Does God really take enjoyment in our agony?

He really wants us to suffer all costs for him, Is he that much of an egomaniac?

Tough love...but true love.

Much glory awaits us...
Romans 8:18
For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.

(this is a really pivotal point to understand this, because it is coming)

Revelation 12:7-10 (New King James Version)

Satan Thrown Out of Heaven

7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them[a] in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.

~~~

I believe God has been telling us that He is going to destroy the works of the devil and very soon now, and remove the tares from among the wheat, and then the wheat goes to the threshing floor so the chaff can be removed. An interesting this about wheat when it is on the threshing floors is: the wheat is beaten with the chaff until the chaff falls off of the wheat berry and is blown away by the wind or winnowing fan, and then the wheat can be gathered into the barn. (rapture)

The process may be painful, but necessary for the wheat.

So what happens when the accuser is thrown down to the earth?

1. He no longer gets to accuse the elect saints.

If you read the book of Job, you see that satan had to first get permission to attack Job, and he did this by accusing him before God.

2. vs. 10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come....

Did you know that this was not said during the ministry of Jesus Christ when He was on the earth, and it was not said with the first century church when the Holy Ghost was first given? It is said AFTER the "Great Tribulation" has started and AFTER the accuser of the brethren is finally thrown down... so he does not get to accuse the elect saints anymore.

So, why is this so important?

The book of Job makes it perfectly clear that satan can't just attack a saint when he feels like it; he has to get permission first, and he gets permission first by accusing us day and night before God.

And what does satan get to do after he accuses and gets permission because of accusation?

...he gets to:

- plant tares
- sift and tempt a saint to sin
- cause division
- divide and conquer the house of God from within
- cause the house of God to be in disrepair
- cause worldliness and carnality in Christians
- plant heresies and doctrines of devils to deceive, if it were possible, the very elect.
- the list goes on and on with the havoc he has wrecked upon the saints and the Bride of the Lamb through the ages.

But we are accountable before God to be on guard agaist all of these things, as we are warned about it in scripture: to watch and pray (Lead us NOT into temptation, but deliver us from the devil...)

So, If satan does not get to accuse us anymore and does not get permission to wreak havoc on the Bride of the Lamb, what do you think will happen with the elect saints when the work of the Holy Ghost in us is unfettered by the hinderer, because he was removed (taken out of the way)?

Well, that man of sin will be revealed when "satan the hinderer" is taken out of the way, and a great falling away of all of humanity and much of what is called the church will happen first ([b]remove the tares and chaff first [/b]- collapse the "Grand Old Mansion" which is in disrepair),

....but then comes true revival on a global scale when that Grand Old Mansion, that glorious House/Temple of God (who we are), is rebuilt, so the the glory of the latter end of the house will be greater than the former.

Because there is no accuser standing before God accusing us, Ephesians 6:12 will end for us, and so will all the works of the devil as pointed out above. But persecution at the hands of those who take the mark of the beast will occur.

[i]Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.[/i]

by mguldner on 2010/12/21 2:27:33

I have thought of this actually for a while and have formed somewhat of an answer. Our problem is not a God that doesn't protect or allows suffering. Our true problem is Sin

Our true problem is that we have failed the grace of God, and the provision he has made to rule over sin in our lives. We have failed to access His power for godly living, which brings true joy and happiness, not sorrow and sadness and suffering with no joy. There is true joy in communion and fellowship with the Holy ghost whom he has given to us.

Look at the reasons why people indulge the flesh in the first place, is it not to fill something that is lacking in the soul? Is it not to make one feel better, to give one a sense of well being? Is it not to give one a sense of joy and happiness and completeness? Is this not the reason why people drink to get drunk and indulge ALL of the senses of the body, to numb, to make one feel better, to give us joy?

I believe The Apostle Paul is saying that God can and will give us all joy and fulfillment in our souls. Be filled the Holy Spirit who completes us, and no longer indulge the senses of the flesh to do this.

The Spirit of God (Holy Ghost) is as natural to the human body as the hair on your head. And this is what we were created for...Are not our bodies called the "Temple of the living God"?

I believe Adam walked with God, where his body was filled with God's Spirit - there was a communion there. God's Spirit filled a part of Adam that completed him (Shekhinah), that made him a living temple of God.

Adam lost this when he, through transgression, fell. The Shekhinah Glory of God lifted from Adam, the same way that the Shekhinah Glory of God lifted from the Jewish Temple (the physical one before it was destroyed in 70 AD).

Since the fall of Adam, our race has sought to fill "that missing part" that incompleteness, by indulging in the senses of the flesh (which God has called sin). And without the Light of God (the Holy Spirit, who was, and now is the majestic presence or manifestation of God in man) man would grow exceeding dark and sinful, for without light, there can only be darkness. And if the light of your eye is darkness, then how great the darkness.

...but we are no longer in darkness (that is to say without the Holy Ghost), that we should indulge the senses of the body with all manner of uncleanness.

Ephesians 5:8 " For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light"

This indwelling Shekhinah presence of God in His temple is something that was always meant for man, we were created for this purpose - we are (that is our bodies) "living temples" of the Holy Spirit of God.

Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service.

Why?

because: Ephesians 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Earendel, my pecious brother,

Your description of world wide revival during the great tribulation is very pleasing to the imagination, but very far from what the scriptures say of that time.

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Matt 24:21-22 (KJV)

And of Daniel's people Israel, it says:

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. Dan 12:1-4 (KJV)

An Jeremiah speaks concerning Israel and Judah of that time:

And these are the words that the Lord spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah. For thus saith the Lord; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. Jer 30:4-7 (KJV)

But of the Bride, the Lamb's wife, the precious Philadelphia church,

Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Behold, I come quickly Rev 3:10-11 (KJV)

I believe that the true bride will be raptured and those that sleep in Christ will be raised before the time of the great tribulation, because God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ. Rather the 7 years of tribulation is the fulfillment of the 70th week of Daniels prophecy concerning Daniel's people Israel. Dan 9. 24 to 27

David

Could I also add that Revelation chapter 12 which you quote, clearly shows that the moment Satan is cast down to the earth and begins to persecute the woman, the heavenly saints ie the saints in heaven begin to rejoice. You are right that Satan can no longer accuse the saints, because Satan is cast down to the earth and the saints are now in heaven rejoicing.

David

by davidc on 2010/12/21 13:44:37

Earendel, my pecious brother,

Your description of world wide revival during the great tribulation is very pleasing to the imagination, but very far from what the scriptures say of that time.

Active imagination huh? lol

okay...here goes:

Revelation 7:9-17

The revival:

After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude

*which no one could count*,

from every nation

and all tribes

and peoples and tongues,

standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;
and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb."

And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying, "Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever Amen."Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?" I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me,

"These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation,

and they have washed their robes

and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

"For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them.

"They will hunger no longer, nor thirst anymore; nor will the sun beat down on them, nor any heat;

for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes."

They are Martyred as per the 5th seal (Revelation 6:9-11):

When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.

...and as per Revelation 20:4

Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

~~~~

I believe the days of the Great Tribulation are before us as foretold to us in the book of Revelation. We are the generation that will see the coming of the Lord, and even as I write this, prophecy is being fulfilled.

Aside from the restoration of national Israel, and concerning the book of Revelation, and concerning the saints and the mystery of the great whore...

There are two purposes for the time known as the Great Tribulation, and that is dealing with two women; there are two women being dealt with during this time. One is the Harlot known as Mystery Babylon the Great, and the other is the Bride of the Lamb. I find this as being the theme to the Book of Revelation.

further...

Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib, Pre-Wrath, Post Trib...if your heart is right with God, you are one of the elect saints and God will see you through. Salvation is not depended upon when a person believes the rapture is going to take place, but on the precious blood of the Lamb. He that started a good work in us, will complete to the very end, and His word will not come back to Him void, but will accomplish what it set out to do.

The pre-trib rapture view states that ALL Christians will be removed from the Earth before the 7-year tribulation begins. A common biblical phrase used for this view is the “The Body of Christ” is NOT appointed to wrath; this is true, we are not…that the Body of Christ is not appointed to wrath, but there are clearly saints of God in the Great Tribulation. So then it would appear that the time of the Great Tribulation is not entirely all about the wrath of God.

But if the Body of Christ is not appointed to wrath, then most definitely the Christian saints that go through the Tribulation are not (so much for the left behind theory), because the Body of Christ is not appointed to wrath. Although, the Body of Christ is not appointed to wrath, they are appointed to judgement.

Is it not the Apostle Peter who wrote that the judgement of God must begin at the house of God, and if the righteous scarcely be saved, where will the ungodly and sinner appear? If the pre-trib rapture view is to be taken seriously by true students of bible prophecy, then there are two raptures at the time of the end, one before the Tribulation and one sometime before the end of the Tribulation, …because both groups of saints are a part of the “First Resurrection” and rule and reign with Christ for a thousand years.

Pre-trib viewpoint rests heavily on Rev 3:10 which states: Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

And herein is the crux of the matter…the Lord Jesus does not state that the rapture will take place here at this point, only that: “ I also will keep you from the hour of testing”

Another point that pre-trib view fails in, is their claim that there are saints in heaven (in the glorified bodies) during the Great Tribulation. This is false about the glorified body part, they are in their spirit form at that time, and not their glorified bodies. Pre-trib view for some, rest heavily upon there being no consciousness after death, thus they say the saints in heaven are in their glorified bodies and therefore were raptured before the tribulation began. I am going to thoroughly show how false the view of no life after death is.

Let's start by looking at the Mount of Transfiguration. We have all read in the Gospel of Mathew.... how Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves, and Jesus He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light and how Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.

So hear we have it, Moses died before entering the promise land. And yes Moses did die...have you not read in Jude how Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses...Jude 1:9

But there is Moses clearly alive talking with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration. Some pre-tribbers will say that Moses was already resurrected when that took place, but what does scripture say? Does it not say that Jesus is the first-fruit of those who rose from the dead? But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 1 Corinthians 15:20 That means that no one will rise from the dead before Jesus, but there was Moses talking with Jesus on the Mount, before His death on the cross ...so now it can be reasonable deduced that Moses was in spirit form when he appeared to Jesus on the Mount...and further deduced that the saints in heaven during the Tribulation are too in spirit form awaiting the first resurrection and the glorification of there bodies.

I believe only a remnant of those who call themselves Christians will be “kept from the hour of testing” but so as through the fire, just like the 3 Hebrew Children was kept by the super-natural power of God.

The Apostle Paul seemed to know when the rapture would take place. 1 Corinthians 15:52 states: in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMPET. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The only other place in the New Testament where it talks about trumpets at the time of the end is in the Book of Revelation; the last trumpet is the seventh trumpet where the Kingdom is proclaimed. The seven trumpets precede the bowl judgements, or the wrath of God. I do not believe that Christians will be on the earth during the bowl judgements; I believe the rapture takes place at the seventh trumpet.

further again...

Matthew 24:29-31 (New King James Version)

The Coming of the Son of Man

29 “Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

THEN THIS HAPPENS NEXT AFTER THE TRIBULATION:

31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

~~~~

Rapture happens after the tribulation of the saints, and just before the wrath of God is poured out on the nations....another issue

Earendel, my thrice precious brother

I very much appreciated your expounding of the scriptures concerning the tribulation period. I felt at one time that "almost persuadest thou me to become" a post- tribber. But of course, it is clear from your writing that you have read and understand the thinking of pre-tribbers, mid-tribbers, and all the rest, so you'll know that I could show you scriptures which answer yours; but I won't.

There have been posts in the past on the rapture and unfortunately, they came to contention; we are told to contend for the faith which was once delivered to the saints and not to be contentious in other things. So I desist.

I believe that everyone should read the scriptures and read again and again, praying for the Spirit's help, and then should be fully persuaded in his own mind of the truth. Yes, we have come to different understandings of what the bible says in these matters, and perhaps this is the glory of the word of God, that it is not the word of men, and can be seen in many different perspectives.

In fact there are real ambiguities in some passages and even contradictions. This of course will serve to drive us to our knees and confess our own lack of understanding and need for the Spirits guidance. Of course, I am not speaking of ambiguities concerning our salvation in Christ Jesus. The gospel of the grace of God is clear light without any shadow or darkness, and has been revealed to us in Christ Jesus our Lord. Praise God.

So precious Earendel, I'll see you in heaven

David

Dear Earendel,

"The Spirit of God (Holy Ghost) is as natural to the human body as the hair on your head. And this is what we were created for...Are not our bodies called the "Temple of the living God"?

I believe Adam walked with God, where his body was filled with God's Spirit - there was a communion there. God's Spirit filled a part of Adam that completed him (Shekhinah), that made him a living temple of God."

If Adam was complete with the Spirit of God, why did God need to create Eve for him? This point makes the argument weak in our eyes (my husband's and mine). Can you explain your thinking on this?

Someone PM'd me with this question...and this is my reply:

The short answer is the procreation of the species, it was God's intention all along - or else how where our names be written down in heaven before the foundation of the world?

So when God created Adam, He knew all along that He would create Eve (she wasn't an after-thought in creation) - created not to complete Adam, but to create a race of beings, in His own image, that would some day ascend to and sit on His very throne, even as it says so in Revelation 3:21.

He knew Adam would sin, but put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden anyway. Does this make God unjust to put such a stumbling block in Adam's way? No it does not, not if you understand that God wanted to destroy sin, and not if you understand that from the beginning that God would interact with His creation through the cross of Christ.

That the full creation of man would not be complete, and indeed was not complete in the Garden of Eden, and will not be complete until we are like Him, completely like Him, created in in His image, even as the Apostle John stated in 1 John 3:2. which says: Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it does not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

The cross of Christ is about the redemption of mankind is true, but it is more about the creation man into God's Holy image then it is about man's redemption.

We are still being created, it did not end on the sixth day - even as the Apostle John has said; for it does not appear "what we shall be", but we know that when He shall appear (first resurrection) that we shall be like Him.

Complete in God/Christ, which we are (Colossians 2:10), is different then being complete in creation, which Adam was not completely complete in the Garden of Eden, in which we still are not complete, and that will not happen until the first resurrection. The Temple of God (Adam) was complete with the Spirit of God when Adam was created, but not complete in creation...not yet.