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FREE FROM THE LAW OF SIN AND DEATH

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Christ Jesus HAS freed me from the law of sin and of death.

Taken from the teaching of Watchman Nee

Romans 8:2; "For the law of the Spirit of life has freed me in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and of death."

It is important to know that it is not special Christians only who are delivered from the law of sin and of death. Every Christian is delivered from the law of sin and of death. It is possible that they do not know it but the fact remains that EVERY person who is born again is delivered from the law of sin and of death. Before we were born again were lived under the law of sin and death. We had no power or ability to ever get away from this law. It was our master and we were its slave. We were unable to do anything to get free. The history of many Christians is one of constant resolutions and constant breaking of resolutions. They continually resolve to do something and continually fail. They may even thank and praise the Lord that God's Word says that they should be free.

I repeat that it does not take special Christians to overcome the law of sin. No Christian has to remain without power. Every Christian can experience true deliverance from the law of sin. Now, it is a fact that Christ set us free the second we were born again. This freedom is a gift from God. It is NOT a command that we must perform or somehow have to work out. Every Christian should enjoy these experiences. Yet many do not experience the facts in God's Word. How sad this is!

What does it mean to be free from the law of sin and of death? First, we need to understand the term law. The common understanding of a law is that it is something that remains the same all the time, something that allows no exceptions. Moreover, there is power in a law. This power is a natural power, not an artificial power. All laws have power. For example, gravity is a law. If you throw something up, it will eventually fall back to the ground. The earth has a force that pulls it down. An object in the air will fall the same today and tomorrow. Any object in the air, as long as nothing is holding it, will fall regardless of time and space. A law remains the same all the time and allows no exceptions. It is a natural force which requires no human effort for it to exist. If I drop my handkerchief, it goes downward. Wherever the handkerchief is dropped, the same thing happens. Gravity pulls it down, so this is called the law of gravitation. Not only is gravity a force; it also is a law. If the handkerchief is only occasionally pulled to the earth, then this force could not be reckoned as a law. A law is something which always acts in the same way. If I throw my Bible upward, it will fall down. If I throw a chair up, it too will fall down. If I jump upward, I will also come down. No matter where or what, what goes up will come down. Then I realize that not only is there a gravitational force exerted by the earth, but there is also a law of gravity.

A law simply means it is always so. It permits no exception. If something happens once one way and another time a different way, it is a matter of history. But if something always happens the same way, it is a law. If a person commits a crime on the street, he will be taken into custody by the police. Should he commit this crime at home, he still will be taken into custody. Whoever murders, regardless of whom or where he murders, he will be taken by the police. This we call a law. A law applies to every person; there are no exceptions. If a man kills someone today, he is taken into custody by the police. But if he kills someone tomorrow and is not taken, kills again the day after tomorrow and is taken, then the matter of taking people into custody cannot be considered a law.

May I ask, does anybody need to hold onto the earth's gravitational force? Does someone need to pray that this force will quickly pull things down? No, there is no need to pray, for the earth most spontaneously attracts things downward. It is a law. All one needs to do is to remove his hand, to not purposely hold onto things. When the will is not working, then the law is manifested. When the will is not interfering, the law operates. In a similar way, the Spirit of the Lord in us does not need our help. If you are afraid that the Spirit of the Lord in you may not be responsible and so you rush to help when temptation comes, it shows that you have not seen that the Spirit of the Lord in you is a law.

The law of gravity does not depend on anyone believing in it or even understanding it. It's force remains constant no matter what we think , believe or understand about it. Have you ever been setting in a chair and get concerned that you might float up to the ceiling in your home? Have you even made any efforts to keep yourself from floating away? Of course not. As long as we live on earth, will live under its power, influence and force. The only escape from gravity would be in outer space. In space you would need to make efforts to stay in a chair and need to be concerned about floating away.

Now if you are not born again, you are now living under the power, influence and force of the law of sin and of death. Like the law of gravity it does not depend on anyone believing in it or even understanding it. It is fact. It is not that I sin accidentally or occasionally; it is not that I sometimes sin and sometimes do not; sinning is a law to me, for I constantly sin. Because this occurs all the time, I know it is a law. Whenever I would do good, evil is present. When Paul's eyes were opened to this, he realized that all his own efforts were futile. What had he tried? He had tried to do good. He had thought his will could overcome sin, not knowing that no will can ever overcome sin. But as soon as he saw sin as a law, not just a conduct, he immediately conceded that to will was useless. The will could never conquer the law. This, indeed, was a great discovery, a very great revelation.

When through God's mercy anyone is brought to see that sin is a law, he instantly knows how ineffective any method of overcoming sin with the will must be. Before he sees this, he is always making resolutions. When tempted, he bites his teeth and determines to overcome, but eventually he fails. The second time he is tempted he surmises that his first resolution was not strong enough, so this time he makes a firmer resolution to not sin again for any reason. But let me tell you, however strong his resolution is, he still fails again. He may yet conclude that something is wanting in his resolution, so when again tempted, he once more resolves before God and asks the Lord to help him. Since he is not sure of his resolution, he prays, "O Lord, please have mercy on me. Help me that I may not sin this time." After he gets up from his knees, he once again fails. He wonders why he cannot overcome sin by making resolutions. The answer is that it is because no amount of will effort can ever conquer a law.

I do hope that you will be clear on the nature of sin. If you see this law, you will be delivered from many hardships and sorrows. If you are willing to accept God's Word, you will know that sin is a law and that you cannot overcome it with your will. Then you will be able to see the real way to victory. It is a great blessing to find this law. It may take many defeats, possibly hundreds or thousands of defeats, to discover for yourself this law of defeat. You have to be so utterly defeated that one day you realize you can never overcome sin by your will. Sooner or later, sin will rise up and declare that it is a law, so what can you do? Let me tell you, all who trust in their own willpower will have to acknowledge that they can do nothing about it. Since sin is a law, what can you do? You cannot resist it; the power of your will can never overcome the power of sin.

We know man is not delivered by exercising his will. When he is using his willpower, he is unable to trust God's way of deliverance. He has to wait for the day when he submits himself to God and confesses that he is utterly undone. Then he will pray, "Lord, I am not going to try again." Whenever one has no way but still thinks of finding a way, he will draw upon his will to help. It is only when he acknowledges he has no way and is not going to find a way that he forsakes calling upon his will for help. Then he will begin to see how to get real deliverance.

Romans 7:15-25 says, "For what I work out, I do not acknowledge; for what I will, this I do not practice; but what I hate, this I do...For to will is present with me, but to work out the good is not. For I do not do the good which I will; but the evil which I do not will, this I practice. But if what I do not will, this I do, it is no longer I that work it out...I find then the law with me who wills to do the good, that is, the evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God according to the inner man, but I see a different law in my members, warring against the law of my mind and making me a captive to the law of sin which is in my members...So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh, the law of sin."

In verses 15 through 20, Paul repeatedly uses the word will and the phrase do not will. The emphasis is on willing or not willing, resolving or not resolving. In verses 21 to 25, there is another emphasis on the law. These two things are the keys to this passage of the Word.

Romans 7 shows us that Paul was trying to be free from sin. He was trying to free himself from sin. He wanted to please God. He did not want to sin or to fail. However, he eventually admitted that his resolutions were all futile. He said, "To will is present with me, but to work out the good is not." He did not want to sin, yet he sinned. He wanted to do good and walk according to God's law, yet he could not do it. In other words, what he willed he could not do, and what he resolved to do, he was unable to accomplish. Paul willed again and again, but the result was only repeated failure. This shows us that the way to victory lies not in the human will or human resolution. Paul willed and resolved again and again, but he still failed and sinned. Obviously, to will is present, but to work out the good is not. The best that a man can do is make resolutions.

The willing is present but not the good, because sin is a law. Following verse 21 Paul showed us that he remained defeated even after he made numerous resolutions. This is because sin is a law. This law of sin was present with him every time he resolved to do good. He was subject to the law of God in his heart, but his flesh yielded to the law of sin. Whenever he willed to obey God's law, a different law rose up in his members, subjecting him to the law of sin.

Paul was the first person in the Bible to point out that sin is a law. This was a very important discovery! It is a pity that many who have been Christians for years still do not realize that sin is a law. Many people know that gravity is a law and thermal expansion of objects is another law. But they do not know that sin is a law. Paul did not know this at first. After sinning repeatedly, not voluntarily but involuntarily by a powerful force in his body, Paul discovered that sin is a law.

Our history of failure tells us that whenever temptations come, we try to resist them. But we are never successful in this resistance. When temptations come again, we again try to resist them, only to end up in another defeat. This experience repeats itself ten times, a hundred times, or a thousand times, and we still find ourselves defeated. This is the story of our failure. We fail again and again. This is not something that happens by chance; it is a law. If a person committed only one sin in a lifetime, he could consider sin as something incidental. However, those who have sinned a hundred or a thousand times will say that sin is a law; it is something that continually drives them on.

Paul failed because he exercised his will to make resolutions. After verse 21, Paul's eyes were opened. He saw that the enemy he was dealing with SIN that was nothing less than a law. When he saw that sin was a law, he could only sigh and say, "Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from the body of this death?" He realized that it was impossible for him to prevail over sin by his will.

What is the will? The will is man's own volition. It is what man wants, determines, and decides to do. It is man's opinions and judgments. Once a man's will resolves to do something, he begins to carry it out. Man's will can produce some power. Therefore, there is power in the will.

But herein lies the problem. When the will comes in conflict with the law of sin, which one prevails? The will usually prevails at the beginning, but ultimately sin prevails. Suppose you hold up a book that weighs one pound with your hand. Gravity is pulling it down while you are trying your best to hold it up. But the unceasing operation of the law of gravity will eventually prevail, and the book will fall to the floor. You may try to hold it up with your hand. You may prevail for an hour, but after two hours you will feel tired, and after another hour your hand will no longer obey you. Eventually, you will let go of it. Gravity never tires out, but your hand does. The law of gravity is pulling the book down continuously, every hour, every minute, and even every second. Your hand cannot fight against the law of gravity forever. The longer you hold the book, the heavier it feels. The book has not become heavier, but the law of gravity has triumphed over the power of your hand, and you feel as if the book has become heavier and heavier. The same principle applies when you try to overcome sin with your will. The will can stand against sin for a while. But the power of sin far exceeds the power of the will. Sin is a law; it is not destroyed by the resistance of man's will. Whenever the power of the will slackens, the law of sin surfaces. The human will cannot persist forever, but the law of sin is always active. The will may prevail for a little while, but in the end it will always be overcome by the law of sin.

Before we see that sin is a law, we keep trying to overcome it by our own will. When temptation comes, we hold our breath and try to overcome, only to find that it has overcome us instead. When temptation comes again, we make a stronger resolution because we think that our last failure was caused by a faulty resolution. We tell ourselves that we will not sin this time and that we will overcome. But the result is the same - we fail again. We do not know why our resolution cannot bring us victory over sin. We do not realize that overcoming sin by the will never works. We will never be free from the law by our own efforts. No human power can overcome it. Paul did not learn this lesson at first, so he exercised his will repeatedly to no avail. It is impossible for man to try to overcome the law of sin by his will.

Once the Lord grants you mercy and shows you that sin is a law, you will not be far from victory. If you continue to think that sin is an occasional act and that victory can be secured through additional prayers and struggles against temptations, you are far from victory. Paul's story shows us that sin is a law. The power of sin is strong; our own power is weak. The power of sin always prevails, while our own power always fails. As soon as Paul realized that sin is a law, he knew that none of his methods would work. His determination was useless; he would never overcome the law of sin by his will. This was a great discovery, a great revelation to him.

Paul saw that a man cannot experience deliverance by the exercise of the will. As long as a man trusts in the power of his own will, he will not turn to God's way of deliverance. The day will come when you will prostrate yourself before God and acknowledge that you can do nothing and henceforth will do nothing. That will be the day you find deliverance. Only then will you understand Romans 8. Please do not belittle Romans 7. We must first have the knowledge of chapter seven before we can have the experience of chapter eight. The problem is not whether you understand the doctrine in Romans 8 but whether or not you have emerged from Romans 7. Many have buried themselves in Romans 7; they are still trying to deal with sin by their will. The result is nothing but failure. If you have not seen that sin is a law and that your will can never overcome this law, you are trapped in Romans 7; you will never arrive at Romans 8. Our newly saved brothers and sisters must accept God's Word as it is written. If you try to find your own way out, you will end up with nothing but sin. You will sin again and again, and your eyes will continue to be veiled. You will remain in your blindness. Your eyes need to be opened to see that all your willing and struggling is in vain.

Since sin is a law and the will cannot overcome this law, what is the way of victory?

Romans 8:1-2 says, "There is now then no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has freed me in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and of death." The way to victory is to be freed from the law of sin and of death. Notice that this verse states "The law of the Spirit of life HAS freed me in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and of death." Many Christians see the Spirit of life setting them free from only sin and death. They do not see the law of the Spirit of life freeing them from the law of sin and of death. It takes many years for some Christians to realize that sin and death are a law in them and that the Holy Spirit is another law in them. When the Lord opens their eyes, they will see that sin and death are a law and that the Holy Spirit is a law as well. The realization of the Holy Spirit as a law is a great discovery. When we realize that the life-giving Spirit is a law, we will jump up and exclaim, "Thank God, Hallelujah!" Man's will cannot overcome the law of sin, but the law of the Spirit of life has freed us from the law of sin and of death. Only the law of the Spirit of life can free man from the law of sin.

Once we realize that sin is a law, we will no longer try to do anything by our will. When God grants us mercy to see that the Holy Spirit is a law, we will experience a great change. Many people only see the Spirit of life giving us life. They do not see that the Holy Spirit is another law in us, and that we can be freed spontaneously from the law of sin and of death when we trust in this law. There is NO effort involved for this law to deliver us from the other law. We do not need to will, to do anything, or to hold on to the Holy Spirit. We do not need to be that busy when the Lord's Spirit is in us. If we fear that the Lord's Spirit will not work in us unless we rush in to help Him in times of temptation, we have not seen the Spirit as a law within us yet. May we see that the Holy Spirit is a spontaneous law within us. The way of deliverance from sin is not through the exercise of the will. If we exercise our will, we will end up in failure. God has given us another law which spontaneously frees us from the law of sin and of death. The problem of one law can only be resolved by another law.

There is no effort involved when we try to overcome one law with another law. We have mentioned before that gravity is a law. It pulls every object down to the ground. But helium is a gas which is lighter than air. If we seal it in a tight balloon, the balloon will rise up. It will rise spontaneously; there is no need to fan it or support it by any force. As soon as we let go, the balloon will rise. The rising is a law, and we do not need to do anything about it. In the same way, no effort is involved when we deal with the law of sin and of death by the law of the Spirit of life.

All victories are unconscious victories because the law of the Holy Spirit is operating and upholding us, not our own will. This kind of spontaneous victory is genuine victory. Once you experience this, you will realize that only the indwelling Spirit can keep you from sin; you do not have to will not to sin. It is also the indwelling Holy Spirit who is enabling you to overcome; you do not have to will to overcome. Since this law dwells in you, you are delivered from the law of sin and of death. You are in Christ Jesus, and the law of the Spirit of life is in you. Spontaneously, you are free. As long as you do not rely on your own will and effort, the Holy Spirit will bring you into victory.

Victory over sin has nothing to do with our effort. We did not exert any effort when the law of sin directed us to sin. Similarly, we do not need to exert any effort in order for the law of the Holy Spirit to free us from sin. Genuine victory is one that requires no effort on our part. There is nothing for us to do. We can lift up our eyes and say to the Lord, "All is well." Our past failures were the result of a law and today's victories are also a result of a law. The former law is powerful, but the present law is more powerful. The former law is indeed potent in bringing us to sin, but the present law is more absolute in saving us from condemnation. When the law of the Spirit of life is expressed through us, its power is far greater than that of the law of sin and of death.

If we see this, we will truly be freed from sin. The Bible does not say that we can overcome sin with our will. It speaks only of freedom from sin: "The law of the Spirit of life has freed me in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and of death." The law of the life-giving Spirit has pulled us out of the realm of the law of sin and of death. The law of sin and of death is still present, but the one on whom it worked is no longer there.

Every saved person should be clear about the way to deliverance. First, we must see that sin is a law in us. If we do not see this, we cannot go on. Second, we need to see that the will cannot overcome the law of sin. Third, we need to see that the Holy Spirit is a law, and this law frees us from the law of sin.

The sooner a new believer realizes this way of deliverance, the better it is. In fact, no one needs to wait for many years before seeing the way of deliverance. You do not need to suffer many hardships before experiencing freedom. Many brothers and sisters have wasted their time unnecessarily; they have shed many tears of defeat. If you want to experience less pain and tears, you should realize from the start that the way to deliverance lies in these words: "The law of the Spirit of life has freed me in Christ Jesus." This law is so perfect and powerful that it will save you to the uttermost; there is no need to do anything to help it. This law frees you from sin completely, sanctifies you wholly, and fills you with life spontaneously.

Now do not think that the Holy Spirit within us only expresses His life through us occasionally. If we think this way, it proves that we only know the Spirit; we do not know the law of the Spirit. The law of the Spirit expresses His life continuously. It remains the same at all times and in all places. We do not have to tell this law to behave in a certain way; it behaves the way it does without our guidance. Once the Lord opens our eyes, we will see that the treasure within is not just the Holy Spirit or a life, but a law as well. Then we will be released, and the problem of sin will be over.

New believers should accept what the Word of God says. If you have to wait to find out for yourself, you may have to commit many sins. Even after sinning repeatedly, your eyes still may not be opened. You will have to come to the point where you see that all your battles are futile. Paul said in Romans 7 that it is useless to battle, for who can overcome a law? Thus, at the start of Romans 8 he says, "There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death" (v. l-2). You have seen that sin is a law. You have also seen that it is not possible for man's will to overcome that law. Where, then, is the way of victory, the way of deliverance?

The way of victory is here: "There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus." The word "condemnation" in the original Greek has two different usages, one legal and the other civil. If the word is used legally, it means "condemnation" as found in the English translation. But in its civil usage, the word means "disabling" or "handicap." According to the context of this passage of Scripture, probably the civil usage is clearer.

We are no longer disabled. Why? Because the Lord Jesus Christ has given us deliverance. It is something the Lord has done. But how does He do it? It is very simple, for it is explained by the second verse: "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death." This is the way of victory. Can you alter Romans 8:2 and read it this way: "The Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from sin and death"? I suppose ten Christians out of ten would read the verse this way. But what does it say? It says that "the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death." Many have seen only the Spirit of life setting them free from sin and death, but have failed to see that it is the law of the Spirit of life which sets them free from the law of sin and of death.

To learn the lesson that sin and death is a law may take years. But even as it may take a great deal of time and resolution and failure to realize that sin is a law, so it may take years for many believers to discover that the Spirit of life is also a law. Sin has followed us for years and we have had a close association with it; yet we still do not know that it is a law. Likewise, we may have believed in the Lord for many, many years and have known the Holy Spirit in our lives, yet not known Him as a law.

It is a day of great discovery when our eyes are opened by the Lord to see that sin is a law. It is a day of even greater discovery when we are given the revelation that the Holy Spirit is also a law. Only a law can overcome another law. The will cannot overcome the law, but a higher law can overcome a lower law. We can never overcome the law of sin by our human will, but the law of the Spirit of life can set us free from the law of sin and of death.

Let us say it another way. To see sin as a law is a big thing, for it makes you decide against battling sin with your willpower. Likewise, seeing the law of the Holy Spirit in your life is another big crisis. Many seem to understand how the Spirit of life gives them life, but have yet to learn that the Holy Spirit in them, that is, the life which God has given them through Jesus Christ, is also a law. If you let this law operate, it will naturally deliver you from the law of sin and of death. When this law delivers you from the other law, it does not require an ounce of your strength. You need not make one resolution, spend any time, nor even lay hold of the Holy Spirit.

May new believers see that the Holy Spirit in them is a spontaneous law. If anyone is to be delivered from sin, he has to come to that deliverance naturally. Should he try to get deliverance by exercising his willpower, he will again be defeated. But now those who are in Christ Jesus are no longer handicapped, for the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made them free from the law of sin and of death. It is all so simple and so natural. We have been given another law which naturally delivers us from the law of sin and of death.

Someone may ask how this comes about. I do not know, but have you not had some such experience? For example: someone comes to you; he scolds you, quarrels with you, and even beats you. He is utterly unreasonable in all that he does. You should be very angry with him, but somehow you let everything go without knowing why. Afterward you begin to wonder why it was that when you were scolded you forgot to get angry. After that person did so much, you ought to have lost your temper. If you keep on remembering all that he did to you, you will no doubt be very angry. Yet, to your own amazement, you just unconsciously let everything pass. Let me tell you, victories are all won unawares.

Why is it that you overcome without being conscious of it? It is because a law is working. If it were a matter of your will, you would have to think and hold on. But what the Lord does is to give the victory without your awareness. Such victories are real victories. If you have experienced this even once, then you will understand the revelation that the indwelling Holy Spirit is able to keep you from sin. He is able to make you victorious without the help of your resolves. You do not need to make resolutions, for the law in you will deliver you from sin. If you really see before God that since you are in Christ Jesus, the law of the Spirit of life is also in you, then you will find that the Lord puts His Spirit in you in order to carry you through to victory quite naturally. You do not need to will or to grasp; you will just surprisingly be brought into victory.

To overcome sin does not require an ounce of strength, for it is the work of the law. There is one law which makes me sin without my effort, and there is another law which sets me free from sin - also without my labor. Only that which requires no exertion is true victory. I have nothing to do. Let me tell you, we now have nothing to do but to raise our heads and tell the Lord, "Nothing of me." What happened before was due to law; what is now happening is also due to law. The former law did a thorough work, for it made me sin continuously; this new law does an even better work because I am no longer handicapped by sin. The law of the Spirit of life has manifested itself; it is far superior to the law of sin and death.

If new believers can be brought to see this from the first day of their Christian life, they will then walk the road of deliverance. The Bible never uses the term "overcome sin"; it only uses the phrase "made free" or "delivered from sin." It is said here in Romans, "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death." The law of the Spirit of life has pulled me out of the realm of the law of sin and death. The law of sin and death is still present, but I am no longer there for it to work upon. The earth's gravitational force is present, but if things have been removed to heaven, there is no object for it to act upon.

The law of the Spirit of life is in Christ Jesus and I am also now in Christ Jesus; therefore by this law I am made free from the law of sin and of death. "There is therefore now no disabling to them that are in Christ Jesus." The man in Romans 7 is labeled, "disabled." But this disabled person who is so weak and always sins is now, Paul says, no more disabled in Christ Jesus. How? By the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus which has set him free from the law of sin and of death. Therefore, there is no more disabling. Do you see now how this problem of deliverance is completely solved?

The earlier a new believer knows the way of deliverance, the better it is for him. There is no need for a delay of several years before he can know deliverance and freedom. Within a few months he can have many experiences of learning. It is not necessary for him to suffer many wounds before learning. It is possible for a Christian not to be defeated. So, when you are faced with a difficulty, do not strive, using your willpower. If you are defeated, do not turn back. Learn the way of deliverance step by step. The first step is to see that sin is a law to you; the second, to see that the will cannot overcome the law; and the third, to see that there is another law which does overcome the law of sin. Upon experiencing these three steps, the problem is wholly solved.

May all Christians be able to sing the victory song of praise. How many miles are walked unnecessarily; how many tears are shed because of defeat. If believers see this way of deliverance and freedom from the beginning of their Christian lives, they will be saved many sorrows and tears. What is the way of deliverance? It is that the law of the Spirit of life has set me free. It is a law, perfect and powerful. That law is able to deliver me to the end. It does not require my help. As the law of sin in the world causes everybody to sin, so now the law of the Spirit of life in us naturally leads us into complete victory over sin. It naturally makes us holy, full of life, and full of its power.

You have already received life. Never think that the Holy Spirit sometimes manifests life and sometimes not. If this is your case, you do not know the Holy Spirit as a law. Since He is a law, He is always the same. He is the same wherever, whatever, and whenever it may be. He is the same, not because you make Him so, but because He is so. Do you believe He is a law? I have no way to persuade you to believe. If you have not seen this, you will not believe what we have said. May God open your eyes that you may see this. We have in us not only the Holy Spirit, not only life, but also a law. Thus we shall be delivered.

Having seen this law, our problem is resolved. It is not enough to see the indwelling Holy Spirit; we must see Him as a law in us. Then we shall begin to praise. Hereafter, we shall live a transcendent life. How wonderful it is.

Worrying may possibly decrease a man's height, but it certainly never added anything to it. "Be not anxious ", are His words. "Consider the lilies, . . . they grow". He is directing our attention to the new law of life in us. Oh, for a new appreciation of the life that is ours! What a precious discovery this is! It can make altogether new men of us, for it operates in the smallest things as well as in the bigger ones.

Do you remember when I said the only way to be free from the law of gravity is to be in outer space? Well the only way to be free from the law of sin and death is to die. The Glorious good news is - Christ has already done this for you. The fact is that, you are not living under the law of sin and death any longer. Now you need to just enjoy being free because nothing you do will change that fact.

Romans 7:4; "Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God."

May God open our eyes to see this way of deliverance. May He

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Victory over sin has nothing to do with our effort. We did not exert any effort when the law of sin directed us to sin. Similarly, we do not need to exert any effort in order for the law of the Holy Spirit to free us from sin. Genuine victory is one that requires no effort on our part. There is nothing for us to do. We can lift up our eyes and say to the Lord, "All is well." Our past failures were the result of a law and today's victories are also a result of a law. The former law is powerful, but the present law is more powerful. The former law is indeed potent in bringing us to sin, but the present law is more absolute in saving us from condemnation. When the law of the Spirit of life is expressed through us, its power is far greater than that of the law of sin and of death.

If we see this, we will truly be freed from sin. The Bible does not say that we can overcome sin with our will. It speaks only of freedom from sin: "The law of the Spirit of life has freed me in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and of death." The law of the life-giving Spirit has pulled us out of the realm of the law of sin and of death. The law of sin and of death is still present, but the one on whom it worked is no longer there.

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Paul failed because he exercised his will to make resolutions. After verse 21, Paul's eyes were opened. He saw that the enemy he was dealing with SIN that was nothing less than a law. When he saw that sin was a law, he could only sigh and say, "Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from the body of this death?" He realized that it was impossible for him to prevail over sin by his will.

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Earendel

It seems some people do not understand this; I will try and explain it so it is easy to understand.

The power of sin is in the Law (as delivered to Moses), and the wages of sin is death...for through the Law, I have knowledge of sin and sinned revived and I died. (This is the Law of sin and death)

But the law has no power over me now...why?

...because I have no sin...and because I have no sin, I am not under the law.
If I had sin, the law would have power over me, and I would be under the law.

Now this is the key to understanding this: How do I have no sin?

Jesus nailed my sins to the cross and this is called grace; (I am under Grace)therefore, I have no more sins before God, and I am completely made righteous before the throne of God, and being made free from sin through the cross of Christ, I have peace with God the Father.

This is the righteousness which is by faith and not by works, do you understand? I am sin free before God because Jesus took away my sins, and where there is no sins, the righteousness that the Law of God requires is fullfilled.

Now does this mean I do not have to have good works? ...of course not!! How shall we who have been freed from the law through the removal of sin live any longer there in! God shall enable us to live free from sin in our lives:

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


verse 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

(meaning God will enable us to live holy with good works!) My body is physically the Temple of the Holy Spirit (I was bought with a price)...meaning a part of me is God (that part of me that has the seed of God). I have His seed born into my spirit (the holy of holies is the place of His residence which is my heart...and I love Him so) which grows and brings forth fruit unto righteousness (righteous works), but but the Spirit, I serve God...inwardly which manifests outwardly through righteous works. herefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 2 Corinthians 5:17

And every day is Holy and is the sabbath...Jesus my rest...because He is within me...flesh of my flesh and bones of my bones...I am His physical body on Earth as are others too (We are the Body of Christ)! We live every day in holiness to God...for without holiness, no one shall see Him.

My repentance is true, and I stand on the righteousness which comes by faith in the finished work of Christ.

In Christ I have no sin, for He took my sin away and nailed it to the cross,
...and where there is no sin, the righteousness that the law of God requires is fufilled...thus is explained the righteousness by faith and Christ fulfilling the law of God.

How comes this righteousness? is by works? or is it by faith? Yes it is by faith, not by works...I am one of the elect of God and I know it, having repented of my sins and turned away from them, and turned to the God of my salvation with a pure and undefiled heart.

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Earendel

further to what I have written:

Someone once asked me:


But did Christ remove the possibility of me sinning?

My reply was"

No He did not.

Paul says, likewise "reckon" yourselves to be dead indeed to sin.

The one thing, that is provided to us is the Holy Spirit.

He could only come when there is no sin, not that we have no sin, but that Christ took the sins away. And because there is no sin, the Holy Spirit of God could come. The Holy Spirit is critical to the christian walk, and the new life, and we have to know Him personally. Why so many Christians spend so much time speaking against Him, puzzles me.

Before Christ died for sins, and was resurrected, and ascended to the Father, The Holy Spirit could not be given as indwelling us (because God cannot behold sin) ...the very seed of God which causes us (in our spirit) to be born (again) not of the flesh, but of the Spirit and in the Spirit.

We become a new creation different from what God did with Adam on the 6th day.

We are an unfinished work of God as of present.

Even the Apostle John did not know what the finished product was going to be when he wrote:

Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure. 1 John 3:2-3

Keep in mind that John was with Jesus and saw Him on the mount of transfiguration, also was a witness to the resurrection. Yet he says:
"it has not yet been revealed what we shall be"

Conclusion: we are still being created into something not yet revealed.

Again it is written, “ Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”

...But we are still in our corrupt flesh at this point, so where does this leave us?

As we once yielded our bodies as instruments to sin and unrighteousness, so now yield our bodies as instruments to righteousness, as those who are alive from the dead.

Paul states that if we through the Holy Spirit(who indwells us) do mortify the deeds of the flesh (human body), we shall live.

Our battle is with the human body that we are housed in (not some mysterious force that exists that makes us sin), the human body is not subject to the will of God, and we have to intentionally bring it under subjection to His will.

Separate you mind (which is renewed after Christ) from the wants and desires of the flesh, whether it be anger, lust, covetousness, what ever the flesh desires that is contrary to the will and Spirit of God.

We are dead to sin through Christ, and as a consequence, sin has no power over us at all, because Christ took the sins away.

The Law of God (as delivered to Moses, AKA the Law of sin and death)has no power over us because we have no sins (through Christ),
which is called the law of grace.

We are dead to sin, but we are still in the human body, which is not subject to the will of God. We have to bring it under subjection to our will (which is renewed after Christ) through the Holy Spirit ...by yielding our will to the leading of the Holy Spirit.

Although we are made perfect to God through Jesus, in the sense that we have no sins(Jesus took away the sins) it is still up to us to access the Holy Spirit given to us to bring our minds and conscienceness subject to the Holy Spirit by yielding to Him, and to bring our human bodies subject to our will which is renewed after Christ through the Spirit of God. (how well we suceed at this is called the amount of fruitfulness we will yield, some 30 fold, some 60 some 100...)

The Apostle John said, My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 1 John 2:1

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sermonindex

Please help me understand what you are saying

You wrote


The power of sin is in the Law (as delivered to Moses), and the wages of sin is death...for through the Law, I have knowledge of sin and sinned revived and I died. (This is the Law of sin and death)

But the law has no power over me now...why?

...because I have no sin...and because I have no sin, I am not under the law.
If I had sin, the law would have power over me, and I would be under the law.

Now this is the key to understanding this: How do I have no sin?

Jesus nailed my sins to the cross and this is called grace; (I am under Grace)therefore, I have no more sins before God, and I am completely made righteous before the throne of God, and being made free from sin through the cross of Christ, I have peace with God the Father.

Then you say say it is possible for a Christian to sin.

What are you saying about a Christian who does sin?

Are they back under law again?

You said


Jesus nailed my sins to the cross and this is called grace; (I am under Grace)therefore, I have no more sins before God, and I am completely made righteous before the throne of God, and being made free from sin through the cross of Christ, I have peace with God the Father.

Are you saying than if a Christian sins that this is really not a sin before God?

I am sorry but I do not understand what you are saying.

I hope you will clear it up for me.

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Earendel


freecd wrote:
Please help me understand what you are saying

You wrote


The power of sin is in the Law (as delivered to Moses), and the wages of sin is death...for through the Law, I have knowledge of sin and sinned revived and I died. (This is the Law of sin and death)

But the law has no power over me now...why?

...because I have no sin...and because I have no sin, I am not under the law.
If I had sin, the law would have power over me, and I would be under the law.

Now this is the key to understanding this: How do I have no sin?

Jesus nailed my sins to the cross and this is called grace; (I am under Grace)therefore, I have no more sins before God, and I am completely made righteous before the throne of God, and being made free from sin through the cross of Christ, I have peace with God the Father.

Then you say say it is possible for a Christian to sin.

What are you saying about a Christian who does sin?

Are they back under law again?

You said


Jesus nailed my sins to the cross and this is called grace; (I am under Grace)therefore, I have no more sins before God, and I am completely made righteous before the throne of God, and being made free from sin through the cross of Christ, I have peace with God the Father.

Are you saying than if a Christian sins that this is really not a sin before God?

I am sorry but I do not understand what you are saying.

I hope you will clear it up for me.

I know that this is hard to understand for some.

No, if a Christian sins, they are not back under the law of sin and death, because they are in Christ still; they just need to ask forgiveness when they err.

It is not okay to sin, how shall we who are dead to sin live any longer therein? But we are to be transformed by the renewing of our minds (through the Holy Spirit) that we may be able to know the things of God.

you wrote:
[i]"Are you saying than if a Christian sins that this is really not a sin before God?"[/i]

I am not saying this at all, sin is sin. What I am saying is, if we sin a sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. That if we confess our sins, God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Imagine a rocky road if you will. Lot's of boulders and rocks in the way on this road that is hard to navigate sometimes.

Repentance is like this rocky road. It is a rocky road that is sometimes hard to travel, especially when you first become a Christian, but one that must be travelled. This is us when we first become a Christian and are learning the ways of the Lord.

It takes time to get rid of the sins that so easily beset us. Likewise the Apostle of our faith has told us: let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us.
looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls.

...and then it says, for you have not yet resisted unto blood striving against sin.


Repentance is a rocky road, and we are bound to stumble on it sometimes, but if we stay on this rocky road of repentance, it soon leads to the straight and narrow way (which is a smooth road), that leads to eternal life. Jesus has promised us that His yoke is easy, and His burden is light.

Sanctification is therefore instantaneous upon conversion, and is a process of growth and maturity as we grow in the Lord.

But consider as we grow and mature in the Lord what begins to happen:

...again it is written,

Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this we will do if God permits.

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Nothing of Nee can be understood until one first absorbs his book "The Release of The Spirit"


Nothing of walking as HE did can be understood until we die to "I, me, mine."

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Earendel


Jesus-is-GOD wrote:

Nothing of walking as HE did can be understood until we die to "I, me, mine."

Yes and no to this.

WE have to seek which means "I" have to seek. Not for the purpose of vain glory, but so that "I" may love God...love Him. Only those that are truly born of Him can truly be in Love with Him. Believe it or not, it is spiritual intimacy. Oh to be like Him...my soul thirsts.

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PaulWest

Only those that are truly born of Him can truly be in Love with Him. Believe it or not, it is a romantic love.

This is error. I am not romantically in love with God; the very thought of this opens one up to grave error, as romanticism is the chamberfellow of eros. The love of God and our relationship to God by the blood of Christ hasn't the slightest inkling of "romance"; God's is a pure love that is nothing short of celestial, an agape love that is transcendental of your understanding and of mine. Any explanation less than this is earthbound, and an attept to define the union between God and his saints by virtue of earthly, visceral, and hence, limited knowledge...from which you've arrived at your "romantic" deduction.

I would halt this error now, before it continues and blossums into something that will embarrass you at a latter date.

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Earendel


PaulWest wrote:
Only those that are truly born of Him can truly be in Love with Him. Believe it or not, it is a romantic love.

This is error. I am not romantically in love with God; the very thought of this opens one up to grave error, as romanticism is the chamberfellow of eros. The love of God and our relationship to God by the blood of Christ hasn't the slightest inkling of "romance". God's is a love that is nothing short of celestial, heavenly, an agape love that is transcendental of your understanding and of mine. Any explanation less than this is earthbound, and an attept to define the union between God and his saints by virtue of earthly, visceral, and hence, limited knowledge...from which you've arrived at your "romantic" love.

I would halt this error now, before it continues and blossums into something that will embarrass you at a latter date.

I am making reference to the spiritual and not the physical. How is it that you do not see this?

Well, I am going to correct you on this. This has nothing at all to do with "chamberfellow of eros." as you suggest.

Have you ever been filled with the Holy Spirit? Have you ever watched someone worship God when the Holy Spirit is upon them?

What do you think you are going to be doing when you go to heaven, play checkers? No, we won't be playing checkers, we will be worshipping before the Throne of God...(it's a spiritual thing, not really understood by the carnal mind)

What is worship, if it not romantic love?

When you sing hymns of worship in Church, what are you doing?

The scripture is full of reference of people worshipping God "romantically."

let's do this with scripture shall we?

As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so my soul panteth after thee, O God
Psalm 42:1

And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
Mark 12:30

By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff. Hebrews 11:21

Read the book of Psalms to see how David worshipped God (Romantically in his soul)

I refuse to debate this; love God the way that you will. But, I will love Him in my heart and in my spirit, in the Spirit, above any earthly love as is understood by the natural carnal man...because I am born of Him who is from above.


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Earendel wrote:

Jesus-is-GOD wrote:

Nothing of walking as HE did can be understood until we die to "I, me, mine."

Yes and no to this.

WE have to seek which means "I" have to seek. Not for the purpose of vain glory, but so that "I" may love God...love Him. Only those that are truly born of Him can truly be in Love with Him. Believe it or not, it is a romantic love. Oh to be like Him...my soul thirsts.


WHAT has blinded the Church from the plain and simple fact that[b] "Jesus came 'also' to be our Only Example" of how to [u]inter-relate with GOD[/u][/b]???

What has blinded us from this Plain TRUTH?


We are to be "as HE was in this world."


I don't see that in this church.

I see folks kicking back watching sports, TV, doing their OWN things.

And consistently speaking "I" - "ME" - "Myself".


It's getting nauseating.


Even most talk about REVIVAL centers around what SELF WANTS HIM to DO - when HE did it ALL 2000 years ago - but because we've been SO Focused on Self - we haven't "walked IN HIM" - but have done our "own thing" for all of our saved lives and wonder "when will GOD show up and do A 'NEW' THING."

GOD FORGIVE US!

All of these "desires" are for SELF.

Even with some - "the desire to be Holy is for SELF / Pride."

"The Release in The Spirit" by Watchman Nee is about what some call "dying to SELF."

MY GOD, when will we ever learn that Jesus was dead to self ???

That Jesus set the Example of being "others minded ONLY" = Totally Self-Sacrificial - His Source = looking up to Father through Spirit to ENABLE IN "ALL" things.

HE displayed what "Love FOR GOD" IS - our Love is SELF centered - sorry!

"romantic" is right - in that romantic love looks for "a return" for IT[b]SELF[/b].


To be others-minded-always is not seen anymore because we are too busy preaching that "Jesus did it all FOR ME - NOW I DON'T HAVE TO BE LIKE HIM - HE DOES OR DID IT ALL."


GOD HAVE MERCY - PLEASE!


We will not see anything but purging in the days to come, unless we see this EXAMPLE OF CHRIST'S "SELF-LESS" LIFE displayed so humbly for us while HE took on our human form.
HE was/is GOD - yet HE took our form to "show us the Way" to LOVE GOD and others FULLY.

He said, to Love others, 'as' you love yourselves ... and also through Paul said ... "no man hateth his own flesh" --- which means - we do not need to be "taught" how to "love ourselves" because EVERY HUMAN IS BORN LOVING "SELF" --- EVERY SINGLE ONE.

He just asked that we love others "as" we love ourselves.

The problem has never been that we Don't Love ourselves - The Problem has been that we Love Ourselves Too Much.

Jesus was "others minded Always"... THAT is The Heart of The Father/Son/Spirit.


Until we get this "self" out of the way - we should not even speak of [b]HIS LOVE[/b] and should steer clear of songs such as - Oh, to be Like THEE ...

[i]Oh! to be like Thee, blessed Redeemer,
This is my constant longing and prayer;
Gladly I’ll forfeit all of earth’s treasures,
Jesus, Thy perfect likeness to wear.

Refrain:

Oh! to be like Thee, oh! to be like Thee,
Blessed Redeemer, pure as Thou art;
Come in Thy sweetness, come in Thy fullness;
Stamp Thine own image deep on my heart.

Oh! to be like Thee, full of compassion,
Loving, forgiving, tender and kind,
Helping the helpless, cheering the fainting,
Seeking the wand’ring sinner to find.

Oh! to be like Thee, lowly in spirit,
Holy and harmless, patient and brave;
Meekly enduring cruel reproaches,
Willing to suffer, others to save.

Oh! to be like Thee, Lord, I am coming,
Now to receive th’ anointing divine;
All that I am and have I am bringing,
Lord, from this moment all shall be Thine.

Oh! to be like Thee, while I am pleading,
Pour out Thy Spirit, fill with Thy love,
Make me a temple meet for Thy dwelling,
Fit me for life and Heaven above. [/i]

We don't even understand THE 'SELF'-LESS EXAMPLE that HE SET for [b]"us".[/b]
We sing songs like this one above with "self" focus again and again and not - TO YOUR GLORY - ALWAYS AND ONLY - NO MATTER THE COST TO SELF.


GOD forgive us. Show us what YOU meant by Loving YOU with all of hearts, minds, souls, and Strength, as The Son did - as our Only Example, Amen

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PaulWest

How is it that you do not see this?

I do not see it because I am looking at your own words, verbatim.
What do you think you are going to be doing when you go to heaven, play checkers? No, we won't be playing checkers

Well, I am going to correct you on this.


You seem awfully defensive and flippant. Checkers? We are talking about romantic love versus agape here, in your own words, so why the sudden slippery slope? The love of God is not romantic - not in the conventional sense of romance, anyhow. The scriptures you've provided have absolutely no allusion toward a "romantic love" between the believer and God. They were written in the idiom of Hebraic poetry, which is full of allegory and metaphorics. It is meant to convey the ecstasy of God's love in terms that surpass human understanding. Jesus is the Bridegroom in context to covenant, which is what marriage is, but it is not a romantic marriage in a conventional sense, as understood by the sons and daughters of this world; there is no temporary honeymoon and there are no conjugal passions, not even in the spiritual realm. All of these images, incidentally, are conjured up at the word "romance"; which is certainly the chamberfellow of eros.

Now, if you mean "spiritual romance" (as you've alluded to David romantically in his soul), I will give you the benefit of the doubt, allegorically. But this was not the impression I got from your initial post.

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Earendel


PaulWest wrote:
How is it that you do not see this?

Now, if you mean "spiritual romance" (as you've alluded to David romantically in his soul), I will give you the benefit of the doubt

*Sigh*...yeah, that's it. God knows my heart. Perhaps I could have chosen my words better for your benefit...let's change it to spiritual intimacy, which is what was intended.

Nothing carnal was intended I assure you; I apologize for offending you with my post. ...This is really too sad.

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PaulWest

Friend, God knows all our hearts. You're quite new, and it's just that we've had some very dangerous episodes in the past here in the forums that all started with this same topic of "romanticism" in terms of worshipping God. I will not go into the specifics obviously, as they were absolutely revolting and blasphemous.

The fact of not really knowing who you are and then seeing the infamous "romantic love" red flag coming up, I had to crash-test your intentions. Please feel free to continue sharing and expressing the love of God as it is shed abroad in your heart, for this is truly a wonderful thing and He alone is worthy.

Brother Paul

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Earendel


PaulWest wrote:
Friend, God knows all our hearts. You're quite new, and it's just that we've had some very dangerous episodes in the past here in the forums that all started with this same topic of "romanticism" in terms of worshipping God. I will not go into the specifics obviously, as they were absolutely revolting and blasphemous.

The fact of not really knowing who you are and then seeing the infamous "romantic love" red flag coming up, I had to crash-test your intentions. Please feel free to continue sharing and expressing the love of God as it is shed abroad in your heart, for this is truly a wonderful thing and He alone is worthy.

Brother Paul

Thanks, I understand your position with what you posted. :-)

I see you have an interesting hobby...How long have you been writing?

http://www.youtube.com/user/Jalapablo

Jesu Juva - Soli Dio Gloria

Ludwig van Beethoven was a south paw musician as well. :-)


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PaulWest

see you have an interesting hobby...How long have you been writing?

Well about 20 years, more or less. It keeps me occupied, and I can bless God through whatever little talent He has given me in this medium. I see you are familiar with JS Bach's inscriptions of J.J. and S.D.G. Impressive. I also compose my pieces for the sole glory of God - even if I dedicate them to people I know, they are ultimately God's, constructed and intended for His glory alone.

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Earendel


PaulWest wrote:
see you have an interesting hobby...How long have you been writing?

Well about 20 years, more or less. It keeps me occupied, and I can bless God through whatever little talent He has given me in this medium. I see you are familiar with JS Bach's inscriptions of J.J. and S.D.G. Impressive. I also compose my pieces for the sole glory of God - even if I dedicate them to people I know, they are ultimately God's, constructed and intended for His glory alone.

{JJ} With what ever God has called me to, Jesus help me. With what ever I set my hand to accomplish in the name of the Lord - To God alone be the Glory {SDG}

He is our destiny.

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wayneman

freecd,

Thanks for the timely post. I've been studying Romans 5-8 intensely for a couple weeks now. I had a good understanding of the law of sin and death and the futility of willpower, but Nee's exposition of the law of the Spirit was so illuminating I read it twice. The balloon illustration was interesting. A helium ballon does not rise in defiance of the law of gravity but because of it. The atmospheric pressure around it, caused by gravity, pushes it upward, away from earth. If we live by the Law of the Spirit, the pressure exerted on us by the world, the flesh and the devil only pushes us upward, closer to the Lord.

W
wayneman

PaulWest,

I, too, am uncomfortable with the concept of eros-as-allegory-for-agape. But even Nee, for whom I have enormous respect, taught that the Song of Solomon is a spiritual allegory.

" 8 The voice of my beloved! behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills. 9 My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, shewinge himself through the lattice. 10 My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away. 11 For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone; 12 The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land; 13 The fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away."

Stunningly beautiful poetry, but, to me, the notion that it is an allegory of Christ and the church repels the mind. It reminds me of one of Barth's comments in Romerbrief (from memory): "Any worship which forgets the infinite transcendence, holiness and wholly Otherness of God in favor of the 'intimacy' of mysticism, or the romantics, or the disciples of Zinzendorf, is a worship which ends with the no-god of this world." This seems appropriately severe. After all, the image of the Risen Christ, as He is revealed in Revelation 1-3, leaping like a hart, skipping on the hills and peering playfully through the lattice at his lover is too painful to contemplate. Spiritual allegory? No, it can't be.

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PaulWest

I think Thomas Watson (among a few other Puritan divines) had the right idea in relation to the spiritual/allegorical interpretation of Canticles, and how it applies to us in the correct context (that is, with the entire remaining Word of God, and not just one isolated poetic book). Are you familiar with Watson's writings? The following is a very worthwhile read:

[b]The Mystic Union between Christ and His Saints[/b]

"My beloved is mine, and I am his." (Song 2:16)


In this Song of Songs we see the love of Christ and his church running towards each other in a full torrent.


The text contains three general parts:
1. A symbol of affection: "My beloved."
2. A term of appropriation: "is mine."
3. A holy resignation: "I am his."

Doctrine: That there is a conjugal union between Christ and believers. The apostle, having treated at large of marriage, winds up the whole chapter thus: "This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church" (Eph. 5:32). What is closer than union? What sweeter? There is a twofold union with Christ:

1. A natural union. This all men have, Christ having taken their nature on him and not that of the angels (Heb. 2:16). But if there is no more than this natural union, it will give little comfort. Thousands are damned though Christ is united to their nature.

2. A sacred union. By this we are mystically united to Christ. The union with Christ is not personal. If Christ's essence were transfused into the person of a believer, then it would follow that all that a believer does should be meritorious.

But the union between Christ and a saint is:

(a) Federal: "My beloved is mine." God the Father gives the bride; God the Son receives the bride; God the Holy Ghost ties the knot in marriage - he knits our wills to Christ and Christ's love to us.

(b) Effectual. Christ unites himself to his spouse by his graces and influences: "of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace" (John 1:16). Christ makes himself one with the spouse by conveying his image and stamping the impress of his own holiness upon her.

This union with Christ may well be called mystic. It is hard to describe the manner of it. It is hard to show how the soul is united to the body, and how Christ is united to the soul. But though this union is spiritual, it is real. Things in nature often work insensibly, yet really (Eccles. 11:5). We do not see the hand move on the dial, yet it moves. The sun exhales and draws up the vapours of the earth insensibly yet really. So the union between Christ and the soul, though it is imperceptible to the eye of reason, is still real (I Cor. 6:17).

Before this union with Christ there must be a separation. The heart must be separated from all other lovers, as in marriage there is a leaving of father and mother: "Forget your own people, and your father's house." (Psa. 45:10). So there must be a leaving of our former sins, a breaking off the old league with hell before we can be united to Christ. "Ephraim shall say, What have I to do any more with idols?" (Hos. 14:8), or as it is in the Hebrew, "with sorrows." Those sins which were looked on before as lovers, are now sorrows. There must be a divorce before a union.

The purpose of our conjugal union with Christ is twofold:

1. Co-habitation. This is one purpose of marriage, to live together: "that Christ may dwell in your hearts" (Eph. 2:17). It is not enough to pay Christ a few complimentary visits in his ordinances - hypocrites may do so - but there must be a mutual associating. We must dwell upon the thoughts of Christ: "he that abides in God" (cf. I John 3:24). Married persons should not live apart.

2. Fruit bearing: "That you may be married to another; to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God." (Rom. 7:4). The spouse bears the fruits of the Spirit: love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness (Gal. 5:22). Barrenness is a shame in Christ's spouse.

This marriage union with Christ is the most noble and excellent union:

(a) Christ unites himself to many. In other marriages only one person is taken, but here millions are taken. Otherwise, poor souls might cry out, "Alas! Christ has married So-and-so, but what is that to me? I am left out." No, Christ marries thousands. It is a holy and chaste polygamy. Multitudes of people do not defile this marriage bed. Any poor sinner who brings a humble, believing heart may be married to Christ.

(b) There is a closer union in this holy marriage than there can be in any other. In other marriages, two make one flesh, but Christ and the believer make one spirit: "But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (I Cor. 6:17). Now as the soul is more excellent than the body, and admits of far greater joy, so this spiritual union brings in more astonishing delights and ravishments than any other marriage relationship is capable of. The joy that flows from the mystic union is unspeakable and full of glory (I Peter 1:8).

(c) This union with Christ never ceases. "Thrice happy they whom an unbroken bond unites" (Horace). Other marriages are soon at an end. Death cuts asunder the marriage knot, but this conjugal union is eternal. You who are once Christ's spouse shall never again be a widow: "I will betroth you to me forever" (Hosea 2:19). To speak properly, our marriage with Christ begins where other marriages end, at death.

In this life there is only the contract. The Jews had a time set between their engagement and marriage, sometimes a year or more. In this life there is only the engagement and contract; promises are made on both sides, and love passes secretly between Christ and the soul. He gives some smiles of his face, and the soul sends up her sighs and drops tears of love. But all this is only a preliminary work, and something leading up to the marriage. The glorious completing and solemnizing of the marriage is reserved for heaven. There is the marriage supper of the Lamb (Rev. 19:9) and the bed of glory perfumed with love where the souls of the elect shall be perpetually consoling themselves. "Then shall we ever be with the Lord" (I Thess. 4:17). So death merely begins our marriage with Christ.

Application 1: If Christ is the head of the mystic body (Eph. 1:22), then this doctrine beheads the Pope, that man of sin who usurps this prerogative of being the head of the church, and so would defile Christ's marriage bed. What blasphemy this is! Two heads are monstrous. Christ is Head, as he is Husband. There is no vice-husband, no deputy in his place. The Pope is the beast in Revelation (Rev. 13:11). To make him head of the church, what would this be but to set the head of a beast upon the body of a man?

Application 2: If there is such a conjugal union, let us test whether we are united to Christ:

1. Have we chosen Christ to set our love upon, and is this choice founded on knowledge?

2. Have we consented to the match? It is not enough that Christ is willing to have us, but are we willing to have him? God does not so force salvation upon us that we shall have Christ whether we want to or not. We must consent to have him. Many approve of Christ, but do not give their consent. And this consent must be:

(a) Pure and genuine. We consent to have him for his own worth and excellence: "You are fairer than the sons of men" (Psa. 45:2).

(b) A present consent: "now is the acceptable time" (2 Cor. 6:2). If we put Christ off with delays and excuses, perhaps he will stop coming. He will leave off wooing. "His spirit shall no longer strive," and then, poor sinner, what will you do? When God's wooing ends, your woes begin.

3. Have we taken Christ? Faith is the bond of the union. Christ is joined to us by his Spirit, and we are joined to him by faith. Faith ties the marriage knot.

4. Have we given ourselves up to Christ? Thus the spouse in the text says, "I am his," as if she had said, "All I have is for the use and service of Christ." Have we made a surrender? Have we given up our name and will to Christ? When the devil solicits by a temptation, do we say, "We are not our own, we are Christ's; our tongues are his, we must not defile them with oaths; our bodies are his temple, we must not pollute them with sin?" If it is so, it is a sign that the Holy Ghost has produced this blessed union between Christ and us.

Application 3: Is there this mystic union? Then from that we may draw many inferences:

1. See the dignity of all true believers. They are joined in marriage with Christ. There is not only assimilation but union; they are not only like Christ but one with Christ. All the saints have this honour. When a king marries a beggar, by virtue of the union she is ennobled and made of the blood royal. As wicked men are united to the prince of darkness, and he settles hell upon them as their inheritance, so the godly are divinely united to Christ, who is King of kings, and Lord of Lords (Rev. 19:16). By virtue of this sacred union the saints are dignified above the angels. Christ is the Lord of the angels, but not their husband.

2. See how happily all the saints are married. They are united to Christ, who is the best Husband, "the Chiefest among ten thousand" (Song 5:10). Christ is a Husband that cannot be paralleled:

(a) For tender care. The spouse cannot be as considerate of her own soul and credit as Christ is considerate of her: "He cares for you" (I Pet. 5:7). Christ has a debate with himself, consulting and projecting how to carry on the work of our salvation. He transacts all our affairs, he attends to our business as his own. Indeed, he himself is concerned in it. He brings fresh supplies to his spouse. If she wanders out of the way, he guides her. If she stumbles, he holds her by the hand. If she falls, he raises her. If she is dull, he quickens her by his Spirit. If she is perverse, he draws her with cords of love. If she is sad, he comforts her with promises.

(b) For ardent affection. No husband loves like Christ. The Lord says to the people, "I have loved you," and they say, "In what way have you loved us?" (Mal. 1:2). But we cannot say to Christ, "In what way have you loved us?" Christ has given real demonstrations of his love to his spouse. He has sent her his Word, which is a love-letter, and he has given her his Spirit, which is a love-token. Christ loves more than any other husband:

Christ puts a richer robe on his bride: "For He has clothed me with the garments of salvation, He has covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decks himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorns herself with her jewels." (Isa. 61:10). In this robe, God looks on us as if we had not sinned. This robe is as truly ours to justify us, as it is Christ's to bestow on us. This robe not only covers but adorns. Having on this robe, we are reputed righteous, not only as righteous as angels, but as righteous as Christ: "that we might be made the righteousness of God in him" (2 Cor. 5:21).
Christ gives his bride not only his golden garments but his image. He loves her into his own likeness. A husband may have a dear affection for his wife, but he cannot stamp his own image on her. If she is deformed, he may give her a veil to hide it, but he cannot put his beauty on her. But Christ imparts "the beauty of holiness" to his spouse: "Your fame went out among the nations because of your beauty, for it was perfect through My splendor which I had bestowed on you," (Ezek. 16:14). When Christ marries a soul, he makes it fair: "You are all fair, my love" (Song 4:7). Christ never thinks he has loved his spouse enough till he can see his own face in her.
Christ discharges those debts which no other husband can. Our sins are the worst debts we owe. If all the angels should contribute money, they could not pay one of these debts, but Christ frees us from these. He is both a Husband and a Surety. He says to justice what Paul said concerning Onesimus, "But if he has wronged you or owes anything, put that on my account." (Philem. 1:18).
Christ has suffered more for his spouse than ever any husband did for a wife. He suffered poverty and ignominy. He who crowned the heavens with stars was himself crowned with thorns. He was called a companion of sinners, so that we might be made companions of angels. He was regardless of his life; he leaped into the sea of his Father's wrath to save his spouse from drowning.
Christ's love does not end with his life. He loves his spouse for ever: "I will betroth you to me forever" (Hos. 2:19). Well may the apostle call it "a love which passes knowledge" (Eph. 3:19).
3. See how rich believers are. They have married into the crown of heaven, and by virtue of the conjugal union all Christ's riches go to believers: "communion is founded in union." Christ communicates his graces (John 1:16 ). As long as Christ has them, believers shall not be in want. And he communicates his privileges - justification, glorification. He settles a kingdom on his spouse as her inheritance (Heb. 12:28). This is a key to the apostle's riddle, "as having nothing, and yet possessing all things" (2 Cor. 6:10). By virtue of the marriage union, the saints have an interest in all Christ's riches.

4. See how fearful a sin it is to abuse the saints. It is an injury done to Christ, for believers are mystically one with him: "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?" (Acts 9:4). When the body was wounded, the Head, being in heaven, cried out. In this sense, men crucify Christ afresh (Heb. 6:6), because what is done to his members is done to him. If Gideon was avenged upon those who slew his brethren, will not Christ much more be avenged on those that wrong his spouse (Judges 8:21)? Will a king tolerate having his treasure rifled, his crown thrown in the dust, his queen beheaded? Will Christ bear with the affronts and injuries done to his bride? The saints are the apple of Christ's eye (Zech. 2:8), and let those who strike at his eye answer for it. Isa 49:26 "I will feed those who oppress you with their own flesh, and they shall be drunk with their own blood as with sweet wine" (Isa. 49:26).

5. See the reason why the saints so rejoice in the Word and sacrament, because here they meet with their Husband, Christ. The wife desires to be in the presence of her husband. The ordinances are the chariot in which Christ rides, the lattice through which he looks forth and shows his smiling face. Here Christ displays the banner of love (Song 2:4). The Lord's Supper is nothing other than a pledge and earnest of that eternal communion which the saints shall have with Christ in heaven. Then he will take the spouse into his bosom. If Christ is so sweet in an ordinance, when we have only short glances and dark glimpses of him by faith, oh then, how delightful and ravishing will his presence be in heaven when we see him face to face and are for ever in his loving embraces!

Application 4: This mystic union affords much comfort to believers in several cases:

1. In the case of the disrespect and unkindness of the world: "in wrath they hate me" (Psa. 55:3). But though we live in an unkind world, we have a kind Husband: "As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you" (John 15:9). What angel can tell how God the Father loves Christ? Yet the Father's love to Christ is made the copy and pattern of Christ's love to his spouse. This love of Christ as far exceeds all created love as the sun outshines the light of a torch. And is not this a matter of comfort? Though the world hates me, Christ still loves me.

2. In the case of weakness of grace. The believer cannot lay hold on Christ, except with a trembling hand. There is a "spirit of infirmity" on him, but oh, weak Christian, here is strong consolation: there is a conjugal union. You are the spouse of Christ, and he will bear with you as the weaker vessel. Will a husband divorce his wife because she is weak and sickly? No, he will be the more tender with her. Christ hates treachery, but he will pity infirmity. When the spouse is faint and ready to be discouraged, Christ puts his left hand under her head (Song 2:6). This is the spouse's comfort when she is weak. Her Husband can infuse strength into her: "My God shall be my strength" (Isa. 49:5).

3. In the case of death. When believers die, they go to their Husband. Who would not be willing to cross the gulf of death that they might meet with their Husband, Christ? "I desire to loosen anchor" (Phil. 1:23), and be with Christ. What though the way is dirty? We are going to our friend. When a woman is engaged, she longs for the day of marriage. After the saints' funeral, their marriage begins. The body is a prison to the soul. Who would not desire to exchange a prison for a marriage bed? How glad Joseph was to go out of prison to the king's court! God is wise; he lets us meet with changes and troubles here, so that he may wean us from the world and make us long for death. When the soul is divorced from the body, it is married to Christ.

4. In the case of passing sentence at the day of judgment. There is a marriage union and, oh Christian, your Husband shall be your judge. A wife would not fear appearing at the bar if her husband was sitting as judge. What though the devil should bring in many indictments against you? Christ will expunge your sins in his blood. Could he possibly say, "I shall condemn my spouse?" Oh, what a comfort this is! The Husband is judge. Christ cannot pass sentence against his spouse without passing it against himself. For Christ and believers are one.

5. In the case of the saints' suffering. The church of God is exposed in this life to many injuries, but she has a Husband in heaven who is mindful of her and will "turn water into wine" for her. Now it is a time of mourning with the spouse because the Bridegroom is absent (Matt. 9:15). But shortly she shall put off her mourning. Christ will wipe the tears of blood off the cheeks of his spouse: "He will swallow up death forever, and the Lord God will wipe away tears from all faces" (Isa. 25:8). Christ will comfort his spouse for as much time as she has been afflicted. He will solace her with his love; he will take away the cup of trembling and give her the cup of consolation. And now she shall forget all her sorrows, being called into the banqueting house of heaven and having the banner of Christ's love displayed over her.

Application 5: Let me press several duties upon those who have this marriage union with Christ:

1. Make use of this relationship in two cases:

(a) When the law brings in its indictments against you. The law says, "Here there are so many debts to be paid," and it demands satisfaction. Acknowledge the debt, but turn it all over to your Husband, Christ. It is a maxim in law that the suit must not go against the wife, as long as the husband is living. Tell Satan when he accuses you, "It is true that the debt is mine, but go to my Husband, Christ; he will discharge it." If we took this course, we might relieve ourselves of much trouble. By faith we turn over the debt to our Husband. Believers are not in a state of widowhood but of marriage. Satan will never go to Christ - he knows that justice is satisfied and the debt book cancelled - but he comes to us for the debt so that he may perplex us. We should send him to Christ and then all lawsuits would cease. This is a believer's triumph. When he is guilty in himself, he is worthy in Christ. When he is spotted in himself, he is pure in his Head.

(b) In the case of desertion. Christ may (for reasons best known to himself) step aside for a time: "my beloved had withdrawn himself" (Song 5:6). Do not say, therefore, that Christ has gone for good. It is a fruit of jealousy in a wife, when her husband has left her a while, to think that he has gone from her for good. Every time Christ removes himself out of sight, it is wrong for us to say (like Zion), "The Lord has forsaken me" (Isa. 49:14). This is jealousy, and it is a wrong done to the love of Christ and the sweetness of this marriage relationship. Christ may forsake his spouse in regard of comfort, but he will not forsake her in regard of union. A husband may be a thousand miles distant from his wife, but he is still a husband. Christ may leave his spouse, but the marriage knot still holds.

2. Rejoice in your Husband, Christ. Has Christ honoured you by taking you into the marriage relationship and making you one with himself? This calls for joy. By virtue of the union, believers are sharers with Christ in his riches. It was a custom among the Romans, when the wife was brought home, for her to receive the keys of her husband's house, intimating that the treasure and custody of the house was now committed to her. When Christ brings his bride home to those glorious mansions which he has gone ahead to prepare for her (John 14:2), he will hand over the keys of his treasure to her, and she shall be as rich as heaven can make her. And shall not the spouse rejoice and sing aloud upon her bed (Psa. 149:5)? Christians, let the times be ever so sad, you may rejoice in your spiritual espousals (Hab. 3:17,18). Let me tell you, it is a sin not to rejoice. You disparage your Husband, Christ. When a wife is always sighing and weeping, what will others say? "This woman has a bad husband." Is this the fruit of Christ's love to you, to reflect dishonour upon him? A melancholy spouse saddens Christ's heart. I do not deny that Christians should grieve for sins of daily occurrence, but to be always weeping (as if they mourned without hope) is dishonourable to the marriage relationship. "Rejoice in the Lord always" (Phil. 4:4). Rejoicing brings credit to your husband. Christ loves a cheerful bride, and indeed the very purpose of God's making us sad is to make us rejoice. We sow in tears, so that we may reap in joy. The excessive sadness and contrition of the godly will make others afraid to embrace Christ. They will begin to question whether there is that satisfactory joy in religion which is claimed. Oh, you saints of God, do not forget consolation; let others see that you do not repent of your choice. It is joy that puts liveliness and activity into a Christian: "the joy of the Lord is your strength" (Neh. 8:10). The soul is swiftest in duty when it is carried on the wings of joy.

3. Adorn this marriage relationship, so that you may be a crown to your husband.

(a) Wear a veil. We read of the spouse's veil (Song 5:7). This veil is humility.

(b) Put on your jewels. These are the graces which for their lustre are compared to rows of pearl and chains of gold (Song 1:1O). These precious jewels distinguish Christ's bride from strangers.

(c) Behave as becomes Christ's spouse:

In chastity. Be chaste in your judgments; do not defile yourselves with error. Error adulterates the mind (1 Tim. 6:5). It is one of Satan's artifices first to defile the judgment, then the conscience.
In sanctity. It is not for Christ's spouse to behave like harlots. A naked breast and a wanton tongue do not become a saint. Christ's bride must shine forth in gospel purity, so that she may make her husband fall in love with her. A woman was asked what dowry she brought her husband. She answered that she had no dowry, but she promised to keep herself chaste. So though we can bring Christ no dowry, yet he expects us to keep ourselves pure, not spotting the breasts of our virginity by contagious and scandalous sins.
4. Love your Husband, Christ (Song 2:5). Love him though he is reproached and persecuted. A wife loves her husband when in prison. To inflame your love towards Christ, consider:

(a) Nothing else is fit for you to love. If Christ is your Husband, it is not fit to have other lovers who would make Christ grow jealous.

(b) He is worthy of your love. He is of unparalleled beauty: "altogether lovely" (Song 5:16).

(c) How fervent is Christ's love towards you! He loves you in your worst condition, he loves you in affliction. The goldsmith loves his gold in the furnace. He loves you notwithstanding your fears and blemishes. The saints' infirmities cannot wholly remove Christ's love from them (Jer. 3:1). Oh then, how the spouse should be endeared in her love to Christ! This will be the excellence of heaven. Our love will then be like the sun in its full strength.

C
crsschk

...because I have no sin...

[i]If we say that we have no sin ...[/i]

Jesus nailed my sins to the cross and this is called grace; (I am under Grace)therefore, I have no more sins before God

[i]we deceive ourselves,[/i]

This is the righteousness which is by faith and not by works, do you understand? I am sin free

[i]and the truth is not in us.[/i]

We live every day in holiness to God...

[i]If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.[/i] 1Jn 1:10

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


It seems some people do not understand this; I will try and explain it so it is easy to understand.
This is the righteousness which is by faith and not by works, do you understand?

[i]My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.[/i] Jas 3:1

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Been reading your posts for awhile - Your great spiritual experiences, ethereal - otherworld - All with a special flourish. Your motivations may well be pure as snow but I am afraid for you, that you do not know the depravity of your own heart and the certain blindness to your boasting.

Every time this matter comes up of what Paul meant, what he explained, what he understood of his human condition ... It seems to get ran into the ground and squared off in nice tidy segments that are impossible to reconcile - Saints with sin or Sinless Saints and around it goes.

You can live in the notions of your head up until the point that reality brings it all crashing back down to earth - 1Co 15:47-49

This is what many of us fear and have often noted it when the pendulum is swung too far- That it can set others up for a greater fall when those times inevitably come, that you are made to [i]feel[/i] and to [i]know[/i] what still lurks and remains.

You may think you are clear of offense, that your conscience is pure and undefiled but others may have an altogether different observance of your character and conduct.


Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. 1Co 10:12


If you have never been in a season of darkness, of being left alone ... All the words in the world pale to the experience - The drift is easy, the old haunts, never removed nor completely extinguished - are still there. There is no complete eradication of sin that some could but wish were so true and that is so often implied, intentionally or otherwise.

Experience trumps great swelling pious sentiment.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=10733&forum=34&post_id=&refresh=Go] Jonathan Edwards - Undiscerned Spiritual Pride[/url]

E
Earendel


crsschk wrote:


...It seems to get ran into the ground and squared off in nice tidy segments that are impossible to reconcile - Saints with sin or Sinless Saints and around it goes.


You have misunderstood what I was relating here. There is no sinless perfection while [u]in the flesh[/u], only Jesus was perfect in the flesh.

What I was saying is, I have no sin because of the Blood of the Lamb, that Jesus took the sins and nailed them to the cross. When God looks at me, He sees only the blood of the Lamb applied to the door posts, not my sins. (this is the sinless perfection I was talking about) God sees no sins through the blood of the Lamb! Now, is the blood applied to the doorposts? ...this is what should be asked about.

I not saying that I have obtained sinless perfection in the flesh, or cannot be tempted to sin, or that I am sin free and without fault in my life, I have many faults...I am saying that only that through the cross of Christ I have no sin, because Jesus took them away. Whether you accept this or not, this is sinless perfection! ...yet not by works, but only through faith in Christ. (righteousness by faith) Not so hard to understand.

BTW I am not a new Christian, not a novice. I accepted Jesus as my savior at 9, learned to follow Him at 18, backslid in my 20's had a bad marriage, got away from God again, and God brought me to repentance again a couple of years ago. I have had some very profound experiences in the Lord throughout the entire history of my lifetime, I am sorry if you feel I was bragging about them, I assure you this is not the case. I thank God for His mercy in my life (and that is the point) and how that He has appeared to me as He has to others.

How is your lighting business going? Before you shine a light on to someone else's sins, please take a look at your own first. With a high and mighty arm God brought me back to Him, and I am grateful, forever and eternally grateful for it.

There is a storm coming...

I know why Tribulation comes, and I can't wait for it. I can't wait to see the Lord Jesus come again...when the saints of God are finally united together as one, and one in purpose, and one in heart, and pull for each other, and love each other, and help each other, and build each other up in the holy faith, instead of tear each other down. We are so divided as Christians, and I am so looking forward to when this finally ends. It's coming.

We will see it, it's coming and the Lord will do it by bringing the Church through Great Tribulation in order to make her white. He will make us work together...there is a revival coming...not a tent revival of traveling faith healers, but an unprecedented move of the Spirit of God, and this is going global, and will come during of Great Tribulation. I am looking forward to this.

A storm is coming brother...time to get ready.

During the time of unprecedented persecution and murder of Christians during this time, and in the midst of all the global chaos, there will be a an unprecedented revival and a move of the Spirit of God, ...such as has not been seen to this day...So powerful will be this move of God - for God shall pour out of His Holy Spirit to strengthen and purify the Bride of the Lamb, that she may be holy and pure - without spot or blemish, her gown will be white....many will turn to the Lord during this time in this global revival. This forum is about wanting revival, that's good, because it is coming.


C
crsschk

Hello Earendel,

Your reply was likely more gracious than my observation, which is a bit skewered at the moment. But I was less interested in your motivations than just the appearance of those things written, across a variety of posts and responses.

So take it for what it's worth. Give this a read, it's my motivation if I may.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=18390&forum=34&post_id=&refresh=Go]Our Attitude To Corrections ~ Zac Poonen[/url]

How is your lighting business going? Before you shine a light on to someone else's sins, please take a look at your own first.

Not sure what might give you the idea that I have not done so or do not continually - In fact it would be quite presumptuous of me if I was not speaking from a great deal of experience ... Nevertheless, I am operating on the flicker of a pilot light at the moment. Pray for me if it comes to mind.

I not saying that I have obtained sinless perfection in the flesh, or cannot be tempted to sin, or that I am sin free and without fault in my life, I have many faults...I am saying that only that through the cross of Christ I have no sin, because Jesus took them away. Whether you accept this or not, this is sinless perfection! ...yet not by works, but only through faith in Christ. (righteousness by faith) Not so hard to understand.

Can I say that I find this and even a great deal of what was spoken earlier by Nee (Who I have a great appreciation for) all a bit nebulous? For instance:

From Nee-

To overcome sin does not require an ounce of strength, for it is the work of the law. There is one law which makes me sin without my effort, and there is another law which sets me free from sin - also without my labor. Only that which requires no exertion is true victory. I have nothing to do.

From freecd-

Victory over sin has nothing to do with our effort.

This, like the unfortunate chapter divisions that are latched on to between 7 and 8 and made a before and after construct, where if it is read as one continuous whole, as a letter ... I just think that it does less to help than to create more problems. As far as I can tell, Paul is speaking in a continuum and does not use language supporting anything other than present tense - it's a well worn argument around here, I digress.

But the lack of effort on our part I find very suspect -

Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

If the former be true, then this would certainly be out of place wouldn't it?

There is a storm coming...
A storm is coming brother...time to get ready. ... an unprecedented move of the Spirit of God

I am sorry, but I have been hearing this for years and find it all very presumptuous. When? Next week? Next month? Next year? "unprecedented" - These things often have like terminology from our modern day 'prophets' and are always as vague as to be applied to the future forever, makes them just that impossible and just that easy to let the utter-er off the hook. No offense, but I know the Lord is not the author of confusion and what we have is just that amongst our imaginative seer's - Frankly, the Lord is not telling them anything of this sort, I believe He keeps His intentions very close to the vest ...

Take it all with a grain of salt, this is far more speaking than I should be doing at the moment anyway.

T
TrueWitness

Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

The first question we must ask about this verse is, where is this temptation to sin coming from? If someone is being tempted to sin from within, then simply declining to act on the temptation is sufficient resistance. But if another person is tempting (testing) you to sin, it may require resisting unto blood if they are doing so with the threat of violence to you if you do not comply. Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego come to mind. They however were rescued by God and were not harmed. But they were willing to give their lives in order to be faithful to God. I can't imagine someone needing to resort to self mutilation in order to keep themselves from sinning. While it is true that Jesus taught that if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. I think everyone knows that by refusing to give into sin, you can avoid the need to cut your hand off. The point of Jesus' teaching is that sinning is serious and to be avoided, not that we should cut our hand off.

E
Earendel


TrueWitness wrote:
Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

The first question we must ask about this verse is, where is this temptation to sin coming from? If someone is being tempted to sin from within, then simply declining to act on the temptation is sufficient resistance.

Please consider 1 Corinthians 10:13


...But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
James 1:14

…but how do desires get corrupted? It starts early in life before one becomes transformed into the image of Christ, before one is born again by the Spirit of God.


I believe the origin of temptation comes from satan/demons (Garden of Eden?). They can only tempt through the veil of our flesh by warring with the mind. These satans/demons absolutely know the will of God, and before a person becomes a believer, draw people to sin against the will of God starting early in life...through the flesh by warring with the mind.

They war against all believers this way - through the veil of the flesh that we are housed in. These demons start their work early in a person's life, before they come to Christ, and try and form a person into their image...and this is their war with and against God.

Therefore it is written:

Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood,(consider Hebrews 12:4) but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Ephesians 6:11-13

Be aware/mindful of where and what these demons/satans will tempt you to(target your mind), ...equip yourself with knowledge, so that you may be able to fight the good fight:

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21 James 4:7


Further it is written, that we are to be on the look out for this:

Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: 1 Peter 5:8

If satan/demons were bound and removed from influencing us, would there be any temptation to sin? - probably not... but the mind still has to be renewed after Christ.

I have always believed that satan needs to get permission from God first before he can tempt or even harass a saint to sin (think of Job)...he does this by accusing us constantly day and night before God.

...so if he can no longer accuse us day and night before God, and doesn't get permission to tempt us, what do you think will happen on the earth?

Pay attention to this:

And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, [b]“Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come[/b], for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. Rev 12:7-10

No accuser before God means no permission to tempt a saint to sin, or to harass a saint, which means there will be revival on the earth unfettered from any hinderance!!! ...But it will come during the Great Tribulation (a great and terrible storm is coming) which is before us now. This time of the Great Tribulation will be the time where the Bride of the Lamb has made herself ready.

Just imagine what the millennial reign of Christ will be like on earth, when all demons and satan is bound for a thousand years.


For me personally, I have found fasting chastises the flesh fairly well, the constant hunger pains is as a constant prayer before God...at least keeps my mind focused on God during the day. And God honors these kinds of efforts towards Him.

E
Earendel


crsschk wrote:
Hello Earendel,

Your reply was likely more gracious than my observation, which is a bit skewered at the moment. But I was less interested in your motivations than just the appearance of those things written, across a variety of posts and responses.

So take it for what it's worth. Give this a read, it's my motivation if I may.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=18390&forum=34&post_id=&refresh=Go]Our Attitude To Corrections ~ Zac Poonen[/url]


I can understand your motivation, but your judgment and your understanding in how you addressed what I wrote are incorrect. But that's okay, I don't hold it against you. ;-) The downside side to online forums, is that they don't always relay what is actually being said, and without being able to discuss/articulate in person, the point might being made, sometimes does not get through.

A word for you to consider though...

It is dangerous for a person to set himself up as the singular or sole or lone authority by himself, especially when council given may not be God inspired, and may very well be dangerous to some.

always get consensus in judgement...

Where no advice is, the people fall; but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety. Proverbs 11:14

Without counsel purposes are disappointed: but in the multitude of counsellors they are established.
Proverbs 15:22


Now consider the words of the Apostle John concerning those who set themselves up as a sole/singular authority:

I wrote to the church, but Diotrephes, who loves to have the preeminence among them, does not receive us. Therefore, if I come, I will call to mind his deeds which he does, prating against us with malicious words. And not content with that, he himself does not receive the brethren, and forbids those who wish to, putting them out of the church. Beloved, do not imitate what is evil, but what is good. He who does good is of God, but he who does evil has not seen God. 3 John 1:9-11

Now the issue of this website is to promote genuine revival, it is a meeting place for people to learn about this and discuss it. A place where people (hopefully Christians) can meet and talk to each other about the things of God. The theme is genuine revival and I truly hope to contribute to that end. Let's work to that end shall we?


On another issue, I truly believe we are in the times just before the Great Tribulation for many reasons. I have studied it, and as well I have had visions concerning it.

A good website for discussing endtimes prophecy in light of scripture is http://www.christian-forum.net
the site is down right now, but hopefully will be back up soon. There are a couple of scholars there. If you visit, pay attention to benny and stephen, gideon has some valid points as well. Lois, is very keen on world events. Keep your eyes on Israel... endtimes prophecy involves them and what happens there.
Preterists and partial preterists views are wrong and pretty much rejected by all, but they try sometimes. It's a good place to learn about endtimes. All those there pretty much agree that we are there now...evrything has been fulfilled with exception of Isaiah 17, Ezekiel 38-39, Daniel 9:27. Some are pretrib, some post-trib...a good place to learn.

E
Earendel


PaulWest wrote:


"My beloved is mine, and I am his." (Song 2:16)



Can't wait to get there! That I, His creation, may see Him, my Creator, face to face...and worship Him before His throne...His Love and His presence is so beautiful, so beautiful, that I cannot help but to love our Lord and Saviour like this (Worthy is the Lamb - Amen!)...and I so look forward to loving Him, and worshipping Him before His throne!

His Holy Spirit leads me into worship...He is my daily bread, His glory will be seen on our faces forever, His light will shine in us through out all eternity...Oh, that I could just capture my Creator's heart, and love Him perfectly in the heavens, and fall down before Him, cast my crown before Him, and worship before Him! Worship before Him!

Holy Holy Holy Lord God Almighty! Alelujah He's Coming!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWndDW_271g

Psalm 22:3


R
RevBenjamin

Earendel,

The Spirit of the Life of Christ has set me free from the law of sin and death.

Oh what a wonderful Savior we have.

The Law of sin and death was first announced to Adam. If you eat of the tree of the fruit of good and evil you will die. And so, in Adam all die.

In Christ, shall all be made alive. All being those who put their faith in Him.

Our faith is in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and His finished work upon the cross. We must first identify in His death to be quickened together with Him, raised up a New Creation. This is what Paul is teaching us beginning in Romans 6.

The first man Adam was a life giving soul, and the Last man Adam is a life giving Spirit. That was not first that was spiritual but fleshly. The first Adam.

Our life in Adam one ended at Calvary. We, in Christ have been set free from the bond and power death had over us, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, being saved by His risen Life.

I am crucified with Christ. No longer I but Christ in me.

Blessings,
R.G. Benjamin


E
Earendel

Amen! :-)

B
BenBrockway

On another issue, I truly believe we are in the times just before the Great Tribulation for many reasons. I have studied it, and as well I have had visions concerning it.

True... we are in the times before the great tribulation. Many people for many many years have studied it and have had visions. There are countless books and countless recorded visions of the tribulation/coming of Christ. Ravenhill (with no disrespect intended) thought he would live to see the coming of Christ. Even many of the disciples, upon Christ's ascension, thought they would live to see Him come again.

Look at Revelations... full of visions... yet written thousands of years ago. Many can say that tribulation/Christ is coming. Why? Well, because it hasn't happend, yet.

It disturbs me when people get a little predictive of the tribulation or Christ's return. After all, we will not know the day or the hour in which he'll come. And I do believe that a majority of those on this site also recognize that we are in the times before the tribulation. Scripturally speaking, it's a known fact...
:-)

E
Earendel


BenBrockway wrote:
On another issue, I truly believe we are in the times just before the Great Tribulation for many reasons. I have studied it, and as well I have had visions concerning it.

True... we are in the times before the great tribulation. Many people for many many years have studied it and have had visions. There are countless books and countless recorded visions of the tribulation/coming of Christ. Ravenhill (with no disrespect intended) thought he would live to see the coming of Christ. Even many of the disciples, upon Christ's ascension, thought they would live to see Him come again.

Look at Revelations... full of visions... yet written thousands of years ago. Many can say that tribulation/Christ is coming. Why? Well, because it hasn't happend, yet.

It disturbs me when people get a little predictive of the tribulation or Christ's return. After all, we will not know the day or the hour in which he'll come. And I do believe that a majority of those on this site also recognize that we are in the times before the tribulation. Scripturally speaking, it's a known fact...
:-)

The most significant endtimes marker/event that point to the times of the very end this age is Israel becoming a nation again after almost 2000 years in exile. Ezekiel 36 fulfilled.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Independence_(Israel)

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t150/dtc62/800px-The_Palestine_Post2C_ISRAEL_I.jpg

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t150/dtc62/flag83.jpg

B
BenBrockway


Earendel wrote:

The most significant endtimes marker/event that point to the times of the very end this age is Israel becoming a nation again after almost 2000 years in exile. Ezekiel 36 fulfilled.


And yet, after how many years since Israel becoming a nation (?) and we still have yet to see this day of the beginning of Christ's return. What I mean is this - I don't care how many people "predict" that Christ will return - His return was already set in motion by His own words. To predict His return upon our knowledge of what Scripture says, that we will neither know the day or the hour, is fruitless, quite frankly. Why must we put ourselves in the position of having these claimed "prophesies" and "visions" of His return, when we already know he is coming, and we already know that we don't know when!?

Will Christ come again? You bet! God keeps His word! That is all we need to know, and that is what we should be prepared/preparing for.

E
Earendel


BenBrockway wrote:


Will Christ come again? You bet! God keeps His word! That is all we need to know, and that is what we should be prepared/preparing for.

Amen to that!

C
crsschk

I can understand your motivation, but your judgment and your understanding in how you addressed what I wrote are incorrect. But that's okay, I don't hold it against you. The downside side to online forums, is that they don't always relay what is actually being said, and without being able to discuss/articulate in person, the point might being made, sometimes does not get through.

A word for you to consider though...

It is dangerous for a person to set himself up as the singular or sole or lone authority by himself, especially when council given may not be God inspired, and may very well be dangerous to some.

always get consensus in judgement...

Where no advice is, the people fall; but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety. Proverbs 11:14

Without counsel purposes are disappointed: but in the multitude of counsellors they are established.
Proverbs 15:22


Now consider the words of the Apostle John concerning those who set themselves up as a sole/singular authority:

I wrote to the church, but Diotrephes, who loves to have the preeminence among them, does not receive us. Therefore, if I come, I will call to mind his deeds which he does, prating against us with malicious words. And not content with that, he himself does not receive the brethren, and forbids those who wish to, putting them out of the church. Beloved, do not imitate what is evil, but what is good. He who does good is of God, but he who does evil has not seen God. 3 John 1:9-11

Now the issue of this website is to promote genuine revival, it is a meeting place for people to learn about this and discuss it. A place where people (hopefully Christians) can meet and talk to each other about the things of God. The theme is genuine revival and I truly hope to contribute to that end. Let's work to that end shall we?

David, you have been here a total of 10 days now and you have so far shown a certain aire that needs to take your own 'word to consider' into account. Let it reverberate in you own ears.

You are also making the classic mistake of trading observation for 'judgment' - The essence is a contorting of the word itself - "Do not judge" as a back stop for any observance and a return volley in kind.

About the nuance's of forums, yes, we have a great deal of experience and a good 6+ years of backlog around here - You might divest yourself of some of it. Misunderstanding abound, but no one is setting themselves up as a sole\\singular authority much less lording it over you or anyone else for that matter.

I am not impressed with your prophetic forays and your boasting is boasting even with the disclaimer. You are not the first to come in here with a Might Mouse persona of "I have come to save the day!" and surely won't be the last.

Judgment or observance? In 10 days time [i]you[/i] have set yourself up as one [i]who loves to have the preeminence among them[/i] and already seem to have a problem with accepting any correction from anyone.

Read the links presented earlier -

E
Earendel


PaulWest wrote:


The fact of not really knowing who you are and then seeing the infamous "romantic love" red flag coming up, I had to crash-test your intentions. Please feel free to continue sharing and expressing the love of God as it is shed abroad in your heart, for this is truly a wonderful thing and He alone is worthy.

Brother Paul

One more time...

Whom have I in heaven but You?
And there is none upon earth that I desire besides You. Psalm 73:25


One thing I have desired of the LORD,
That will I seek:
That I may dwell in the house of the LORD
All the days of my life,
To behold the beauty of the LORD,
And to inquire in His temple. Psalm 27:4


It is only through the Spirit of the living God that I have come to love Him so, ...just very special moments when I am alone with Him in my thoughts and in prayer, and His Holy Spirit visits me. Only when His Spirit is upon me do I worship and love Him like this...Never on my own, and never in the natural by myself.

Perhaps sharing these things (my testimony included) on this open forum like this, was the wrong this to do for me; I do not know what else I am to think brother Paul. I feel awful.

Anyway, God bless, and let your heart love Him in sweet worship always.

David.

C
crsschk

Perhaps sharing these things (my testimony included) on this open forum like this, was the wrong this to do for me; I do not know what else I am to think brother Paul. I feel awful.

No brother, sharing your testimony is never wrong - Allowing yourself to be vulnerable in the open ... to having your ideas and opinions questioned\\tested ... we all allow ourselves this scrutiny as a matter of course, it comes with the territory. And I think it is often far more useful to hear a critique than a constant chorus of 'amens' from members of your own kind.

If Paul West crash tested your intentions on one aspect and I on another, remember that we are just worms - I am still a bit concerned that you think too highly of yourself and that in itself evades you - Far from your intention as it may be, that is what has come across, especially as someone so new to his surroundings.

I took exception to your prophetic forays elsewhere -

[i]Funny you should mention Bentley.

The Lord moves in mysterious ways sometimes. About two weeks before the news on Bentley came out, I wrote to Stephen Strader and told him that a Katrina class hurricane was coming his way and that it was coming because of sin. A couple of weeks after I gave Strader that word, Hurricane Fay flooded Florida with record rain fall (3-4 feet in some places) (Katrina was about flooding, which is what Fay did) it was the same time that news on Todd Bentley was revealed.

Please don't take it that I am boasting for telling you this, because I am not...God forbid. It was merely a demonstration of the power of God moving through the Holy Spirit. I have always been about repentance (it's been my witness/message to myself first before others) and that was my message to Strader (Repentance). God kept the word of prophecy I gave to Strader, and in so doing kept His word about the need for repentance in the body of Christ. Strader did not accept it, even after the fact, because I did not names names, or say what the sin was, and he said a true prophet would be able to do that. *sigh*

I want add here that I have prayed for Todd and his wife Shonna and their kids. Lord have mercy on them, and forgive Todd Lord, and give him repentance.[/i]

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=28034&forum=40#216331]A Christless Pentecost, a warning, by David Wilkerson & Frank Bartleman[/url]

And I will say again that it is pompous and very presumptuous of you to think that what you had was a 'prophetic word' - "[i]God kept the word of prophecy I gave to Strader[/i]" and that any of the circumstances had anything to do with either of them. It's empty, meaningless, noise.

*If you had any discernment whatsoever the whole of the Lakeland fiasco was generated on soulish and outlandish behavior right from the get go. And Stradler and his Charisma(tic) enterprise is a constant duplicity and hypocrisy by promoting and denouncing in the same breath - These supposed leaders that gave their blessing at the onset turned tail and worse wrote out long defenses of their participation, attempting to distance themselves from it once it came crashing back down to the ground. But none of this has anything to do with your 'prophetic' utterance- It is sheer nonsense. For their part I find them to be cowards at true confrontation and just as so in general - This prophetic gobbledygook that has so permeated Christianity in the last 20 or so years lacks any authenticity whatsoever - It lacks humility and speaks presumptuously, it disgraces itself and thwarts it's own efforts by knee-jerk defenses that spell it's own demise. If the thing is so, it is so and there is no need to defend it. But this idea that "Gods says" or "Thus sayeth the Lord" or any variation on it is nothing but the imagination of fallen brains speaking things it ought not.

This ilk does not have the faintest idea of what prophecy is in the New Testament grasp. We have attempted to derive what is meant in many a post in these parts and it almost always, invariably turns into a mis-mash of emotional opinionating over against a biblical/scriptural definition.

If it is not obvious that I have something of particular bent against these things, trust this is far from harsh - It is to the ruin of so many and where I once was almost sucked into it all that I am compelled to speak, even in a season where I ought to be silent ...

There are multitudes that hang on to the words of these self proclaimed 'oracles', buy up their products and live in an imaginative universe of expecting ... who knows what on any give day or week - Blessing and prosperity or doom and devastation, it's all contradictory nonsense and most of it is never called into account. God is not the author of confusion and He is not saying any of this.

I will go back to my cave but I do want you to understand something. Despite what you might think and to be truthful, I believe it is what you [i]feel[/i] that is troubling you ... There is no animosity and nothing but true love for you as a brother. I am often amazed how we can be so ... spineless and lack any courage to challenge or be challenged. Is it love to be so concerned with 'offending' not a weak brother or sister but one that seemingly has some experience and acumen in spiritual matters by putting things to the test? And where is that delight, that welcoming appreciation that Paul had of the Bereans when they would not take his word for it but ... you know the rest. Is this not the very shredding of disposition of our great oracles of this hour that they cannot stand to be questioned and their supporters rush to their defenses?

It takes some courage and it causes a lot of pain if you are not one fond of confrontation - A lot of second guessing, a lot of regret in how things might have been stated - an expectation of misunderstanding and a certain knowing no matter how careful one may be that some will be injured on an emotional level despite it all.

I can guarantee sometime this afternoon I will have wished I never bothered with this. And I want to reiterate again that much of this earlier observance is skewered by the present state I am in - Take it for whatever truth may be found and discard it as the rantings of a lunatic for all else. My light is dim, my head is full of the cares of this world presently - It is as much beyond my control as it is just the darkest of of dark seasons - I do not know just what is going on but I am not seeking sympathy. It is what it is and I must endure it.

So David, I apologize if this is all seemingly too harsh - In fact some of it is, (I meant "Mighty Mouse" by the way, not "might" mouse - unnecessary regardless)- Where I erred and my regret the last few days has been ... some in what I might have said, but that I said it [i]at all[/i]. I am not supposed to be speaking, it's an intuition and I went against it. Forgive me for any undue harm brother. Please, you are more than welcome here -Get used to your surroundings, there is such a wealth of real spiritual help here and some incredible saints that have long graced these pages.

If you haven't - a couple of threads, not accusatory - just explanatory;

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=14144&forum=13&post_id=&refresh=Go]MUST READ: SermonIndex Forum Disclaimer / Community Rules[/url]

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=21919&forum=35&post_id=&refresh=Go]Testing all things on SermonIndex[/url]


*Edit - Already the words are redounding in my regrettable mind ... "If" is too accusatory - It occurred to me just there if we are not mistaking discernment for 'prophecy'. Apparently you have some discernment - I retract that. You still do not have a prophecy however :-)

E
Earendel

I am sorry that you do not believe in prophetic gifting; I am going to do this to encourage you Mike, no other reason. If you want to say coincidence after this, then so be it. But I am finished with this, and with talking to you about it anymore. Believe what you will.

You know when I first came back to the Lord, I never expected to be anything other than a door mat. I would have been very happy with that too, just knowing that I am saved would have sufficed for me. I did not ask for a prophetic gift.

I could only find the lofi version of what happened and as I recorded the event. Notice the time stamp of June 27, 2008 on the post.

I remember when the Lord first appeared to me in a vision, I did not know at all what to make of it. I went a number of months trying to figure it out.

...anyway

Here is how the Lord first visited me in a prophetic dream as it recorded:


QUOTE (Earendel @ Jun 27 2008, 04:26 AM)
I just had a very strange dream and came to the computer to write it out.

In this dream I was back in engineering school in one of my classes; we were talking about the bible and bible prophecy. I must admit I do not know what this is all about, but here it goes.

It had to do with bible numbers and golden squares, whatever that means. What was strange in the dream to me is I was not scheduled for taking this class. It had to do with aligning of golden squares in a grid pattern; each golden square filled in a part of a whole grid and I believe if there was filled in 49 golden squares (7 x 7 grid) a major event was about to occur. I remember the instructor was able to align a complete grid of 4 complete 7 x 7 golden grids, that is to say accurately prophecy. I remember thinking in the dream I could align them too, that is to say that I could accurately prophecy. I was not scheduled for this class, and how I ended up here I am not certain.

I remember sitting thinking I was not supposed to be in this class, but as I sat there I heard my name called out as part of the roll call for that class...I am in this class. The instructor called out my name in front of the class and said to the others that I had aligned a complete 7 grids by 7 grids golden grid square; and that a Katrina class huricane is coming...he called it a "Katrina Class" Immediately after hearing this, I heard a gentle voice call my name. The first time the gentle voice called out to me I did not awaken from my sleep. The gentle voice called my name again and I awoke out of my sleep, I got out of bed and checked on my children and sat down at this computer to write it out was it is still fresh in my thoughts. I started writing this out at approx 2:49 AM. What was odd about this dream, was the gentle voice that called my name twice to awaken me out of my sleep to come and write this out. The gentle voice was not apart of the dream but was exterior to it, like someone standing over me calling my name to awaken me. When I awoke, I was alone in my bedroom not at all frighened by what had happened. and here I am writing it out.

http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cache:mdrh7ZHNJ34J:www.christian-forum.net/lofiversion/index.php/t20684-50.html=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&client=safari

At the end of the link above, I saw it fulfilled.

That whole thread was about repentance and turning away from sin and turning to God. I am responsible for what I know, for surely as writing this I will have to give an account. My message is clear, the day of the Lord is at hand, repent and get ready! He's coming! Turn to God with a pure heart, and allow the work of the Holy Spirit to bring full repentance.

Concerning the prophetic, David Wilkerson has a very profound word of prophecy, I have sensed the same thing coming as well:
http://davidwilkersontoday.blogspot.com/2009/03/urgent-message.html


Paul Washer on what is coming:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7UyZYpeReY&feature=PlayList&p=12F5365130DB8B2A&index=0

Why a "Great Revival" comes during the "Great Tribulation".
http://www.prophecytalk.com/index.php?topic=6602.0


S
spirit2009

Have you ever tried yourself to be free from sin without the help of the Lord ? it is impossible , only the Father ,our Lord is free from sin and so we break down our human selves and let the Lord take control as we ourselves as human beings cannot!!!!!!!

E
Earendel


spirit2009 wrote:
Have you ever tried yourself to be free from sin without the help of the Lord ? it is impossible , only the Father ,our Lord is free from sin and so we break down our human selves and let the Lord take control as we ourselves as human beings cannot!!!!!!!

The only way to be sin free is through the cross of Christ, through the blood of the Lamb - there is no other way to be sin free. Complete trust in Christ that He took away the sins, and where there is no sins, the righteousness that the Law of God requires is fulfilled, thus is explained the righteousness by faith. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9

Once the sins are out of the way, the Holy Spirit can come...

For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:13

C
crsschk

I am sorry that you do not believe in prophetic gifting; I am going to do this to encourage you Mike, no other reason. If you want to say coincidence after this, then so be it. But I am finished with this, and with talking to you about it anymore. Believe what you will.

I am sorry as well. I had you mistaken after all.

Bible codes? Do not bring this nonsense in here. You have wandered into the wrong setting.

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