People know they are sinners?

I have heard a trend of preaching that we don't need to clamp down too hard in our preaching, for people already know they are sinners. And instead of spending much time on identifying sin and such, we need to spend more time preaching about the new birth and the blessings of the regenerate life. Is there any actual basis to this statement, that sinners know they are sinners? Discuss :)

I saw the question. Check this:"Pro 20:6 Most men will proclaim every one his own goodness..."Also" Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet."These are amazing statements! First that man does not by nature declare that He is a sinner in the biblical sense because by nature we are like Adam, who sewed some fig leaves to hid his nakedness after he had sinned. Most people I witness to think they are good people and therefore are at enmity with good because they are trying to be found in their righteousness rather then Christ's, "Phi 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith..." I was like this too, I used to be a blaspehming athiest and was convinced that if there was a God that He was like " Oh he is good person." That is a loud of rubbish! This preaching that doesn't talk about sin, and convince men they are sinners is rubbish! Away with all that trash! If the apostle Paul needed to be convinced of his sin as a moral Pharisee, how much more do this culture who is oozing and spewing forth rebellion every day, how much more do we need to be convinced? Check out on this site some sermons by Ray Comfort! He really puts the smack down on this type of whack preaching. He is also good for basics on the necessity to show men their exceedingly sinfulness of sin!

Indeed. Forevidence picks the verses that stick out to me the most from Scripture. The evangelism books I've read seem to all agree in this area as well, that we must preach the law in order to show men their sin. I've never heard anybody quote any verses that suggest something else. But, the fact I've heard several preachers say nearly the same thing, that sinners know they are such, shows that somebody out there is probably quoting somebody (whom I guess is rather popular). One of my professors at school said it over lunch one day, and I challenged him to provide a Scripture that teaches such. He wasn't able to. I heard my pastor say it this last Sunday as well.

we must preach the law in order to show men their sin.Hi JimmyI have heard this from some of the people I respect most but I struggle with the biblical basis for such a statement. I am currently reviewing "Firm Foundations" (Trevor McIlwain, New Tribes Mission - ISBN 1-890040-00-2) for a UK based Missionary Association. I have been impressed with the first few chapters but have now arrived at the chapters which involve this thesis. My main problem with the thesis is that I do not see it in the Acts. Acts 17 is a key passage to my mind where in the midst of a heathen audience Paul preached the resurrection as a guarantee that all men must face judgement. He says that God had overlooked men's ignorance in idolatry but now commanded all men everywhere to repent.The question to my mind is when is 'now'? Is this the moment when the gospel touches a life (when the commandment comes), or did the 'now' begin from the moment of Christ's death? There is no doubt in my mind that 'repent' means there must be some consciousness of 'sin', but is the law the only way by which sin is recognised in personal experience? Some may say but we see it in the epistles. But the epistles were written to people to whom God's command 'had come' with its consequent sin-consciousness.This site has a special interest in classical revival and its inevitable sin consciousness, but do revivals always begin with the education of the sinner or does an awareness of the presence of God bring the biblically uneducated to sin consciousness?As a matter of personal opinion I don't think that sinners do know that they are sinners without being told, anymore that corpses know they are dead. I think this is part of what Paul is saying in Romans 7; I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. Earlier he says that he would not have recognised 'lust' unless the law had said it. But he grew up with that fact; there was probably never a time when he did not know it. Clearly, at some point in his experience that commandment came and then the trouble started.

Hi Ron,16 ¶ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.Romans 114 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10But the subject is not faith but sin conciousness. :-P 19 ¶ Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.I don't find the word concience in my AV, perhaps YOU have it in one of those OTHER translations that you like. 8-) I feel strongly both ways. That man is born with a God conciousness. And that he needs to be instructed through the Word of God to be able to reconcile with Him.24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.II Timothy 2I've missed you my brother. I'm looking forward to what you'll do next with Abe.Clutch

I have heard a trend of preaching that we don't need to clamp down too hard in our preaching, for people already know they are sinners. And instead of spending much time on identifying sin and such, we need to spend more time preaching about the new birth and the blessings of the regenerate life. Is there any actual basis to this statement, that sinners know they are sinners? Let's not generalise too much. It really depends on the particular background of the audience. Jesus himself was stern at times ("Woe to you") and compassionate in other occasions ("I come to heal"). He preached to the Samaritan woman first the blessings of the living water, and then he subtly confronted her about her sins. Paul preached on the "Unknown God" to the Greeks in Athens, but Stephen went through the whole history of Israel when he spoke to the Jews in Jerusalem.Follow the Spirit's leading, not a particular gospel-preaching formula. People meet God in different ways, and it is impossible for those who have a genuine encounter with God to not be conscious of their sins.

i watched a program recently about America's prison system in which there was a segment where psychologist interviewed a cross segment of rapist, murderers, stick up thieves, and burgulars, and they asked them if they considered themselves "good" of "bad" people, and to a man everyone of them said that they didn't think of themselves as bad folk ... i think that most folk today, and i have to say within American society, because it's the only one i know, don't think that their bad, or sinners ... If they did they wouldn't do what they do ...i also just got finished listening to; "A Nation of Victims: The Decay of the American Character" ... http://www.booktv.org/booknotes/index.asp?schedid=297&segid=4809... on Book TV.Org ... You can watch/listen to it, if you click on "WATCH", and have RealPlayer ... As a Christian you'll find it pretty appaling, and gain some real understanding why it's so difficult for folk, particularly Americans, to truly accept, and experience the forgiveness of Christ, because even if they've done wrong, they don't take personal blame, it's just not their fault ... And the devil certainly didn't make them do it in their own minds because most don't even believe in the devil ... So it's their parents, or society's fault, never their own ... satan is the master deciever!

Is there any actual basis to this statement, that sinners know they are sinners? I think I would answer that question by asking, "Have they been informed?" That has already been answered in a previous post that dealt with man being without excuse. All men have the light of creation and conscience. The conscience is God unaffliated agent within us that either approves or condemns our behavior. God makes man conscious of their condition in many ways- even apart from preaching. Jonathan Edwards once compelled unrepentant sinners to consider right now how many different means that Christ is using to try to bring them to repentance. People have been made known they are sinners, but have hardened themselves to that reality and there for need to have their conscience re-awakened. God can do it sovereignly (as He did in the Hebrides revival)- but He generally uses a means such as preaching. The greater the hardness- the stronger the means needed to deal with it. This means increased unction and more potent message. A person near unto repentance may not need such. As one post already affirmed, we must have the leading of the Holy Ghost.

Interesting thoughts.Another verse I thought I'd toss out there for this discussion is:Proverbs 12:15 The way of the fool is right in his own eyes...Though there are surely some 'reasonable' sinners out there that show some prudence, all those who are not living the life of faith technically are fools. And their way is right in their own eyes, and it is a way that leads to hell.Let's not generalise too much. It really depends on the particular background of the audience. Jesus himself was stern at times ("Woe to you") and compassionate in other occasions ("I come to heal").Indeed.Follow the Spirit's leading, not a particular gospel-preaching formula. People meet God in different ways, and it is impossible for those who have a genuine encounter with God to not be conscious of their sins.Amen.i think that most folk today, and i have to say within American society, because it's the only one i know, don't think that their bad, or sinners ... If they did they wouldn't do what they do ...With out a doubt. Most Americans think they are pretty good people. More than that, most think they are Christian! Most would admit to some sort of faults, but, would most likely relegate these as simple "mistakes." Perhaps those who are caught up in the more taboo/socially unacceptable sins might admit they are in sin, but... as the one brother said, it will depend person from person. All men have the light of creation and conscienceIndeed, but as Romans 1 also points out, these men "surpress the truth in unrighteousness." Or in otherwords, when their conscience starts to bother them, they just "shrug it off."

KingJimmy ...This is a great thread brother! ... And let me take this opportunity to say that if you keep having dreams about "preaching" Christ Gospel, then i'd deduce that you're supposed to "preach" Christ Gospel! ... And i'm hoping that there'll be a healthy dose of "fire and brimstone" in it! ... AmenBrother Robert wrote;--- The greater the hardness- the stronger the means needed to deal with it. This means increased unction and more potent message ---Amen, but what is the "stronger means needed to deal with it" when God gets tired of talking? ... Reprobates are something far different than the usual run of the mill sinner ... Reprobates are folk God has turned His back on, in fact given up on ... Reprobates don't listen to reason, and today we live in a world, a country, a society full of reprobates ... Europe has completely dismissed God ... America magically rubs it's Bible three times in attempts of trotting Him out like some cosmic Genie only when she's in trouble ... It is STILL! a fearful thing to fall into the hands of an angry God, but not to much preaching is going on these days about God's anger, wrath, judgment, and the like ... America felt a twinge of this on 9/11, "i think God is trying to tell us something", and wham!, church attendance skyrocketed ... Then it got to be, "Hmmmmm was that God"? ... Then it got to be, " Nahhhhh that couldn't possibly be God, God's to nice, He'd never do/allow that, it was that crazy Bin Laden and his gang" ... And once it was all explained away wham!, back to business worse than before ... God help us!How can folk be afraid when they're primarily getting a one sided cosmic Mr. Nice Guy, baby Jesus at Christmas, helplessly crucified on the cross in the Passion view of Jesus ... Whose proclaiming His now majestically sitting at the right hand of the Father status NOW!, with ALL POWER in His hands NOW!, just waiting on the word from the Father, to come back down here and mete out the fiery judgement on the vileness and unrepentant wickedness of this world? ... Who? ... Are you? ... i can tell you from personal experience right now, that for the most part, and i do mean the most part, when you do, you become anathema to both saved and unsaved alike ... It is said that ignorance is bliss, and what you don't know can't hurt you ... Well saints you and i both know these are lies straight from the pit of hell ... But the world is determined to live by such lies, and much more sadly now are so many saints ... Want to make yourself some real enemies in and outside of the church? ... Preach REPENTANCE and see what it gets you ... Acts.28[27] For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.Tit. 1: 15 & 16Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.[16] They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.Rom.1: 18-32[18] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;[19] Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.[20] For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:[21] Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.[22] Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,[23] And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.[24] Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:[25] Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.[26] For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:[27] And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.[28] And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;[29] Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,[30] Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,[31] Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:[32] Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.2Tim.3: 1-9[1] This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.[2] For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,[3] Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,[4] Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;[5] Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.[6] For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,[7] Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.[8] Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.[9] But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.A great majority of folk ain't seeing, and they difinitley ain't into hearing about beingsinners ... We live in a world under strong delusion ... That only leaves the shock and awe of Divine judgment ... and according to the Revelation even this will not be enough to turn some ... Amazing, the power of delusion.

Amen, but what is the "stronger means needed to deal with it" when God gets tired of talkingThis is a good question Bro. Rahman, and I think the fear of the unknown of what exactly God is going to do is what sticks out in my mind. Matthew Henry once said that God is never at a loss for a means with which to punish a wicked and gainsaying people; His quiver is always full.Want to make yourself some real enemies in and outside of the church? ... Preach REPENTANCE and see what it gets you ... I believe the revival we need is a revival of repentance towards God. I have preached repentance almost continually for 8 months in some form or another. I can answer one thing it has gotten me is great dispair and a reputation for being morose. :) It gets me a lot of soul searching and sleepless nights. That only leaves the shock and awe of Divine judgment ... and according to the Revelation even this will not be enough to turn some ... Amazing, the power of delusion.Beloved lets keep preaching and pressing on no matter what this nation and world does! If they be annhilated let it not be said that theyw ere not fervently warned. Lets pray to God until their consciences become like a scorpion inside them if they don't repent (Ravinhill). Lets preach with eternity in our eyes!

Some say "well not everyone needs to hear it". well those who need to hear it must hear it, and those who don't need to hear it certainly won't mind if they do.Yes bro. Jesse! And what an opportunity to give God thanks for what he has saved us from as we hear these things afresh.

Amen again Brother Robert! ... you posted;--- I have preached repentance almost continually for 8 months in some form or another. I can answer one thing it has gotten me is great dispair and a reputation for being morose. :) It gets me a lot of soul searching and sleepless nights ---Now isn't that something? ... You preach "repentance" and you wind up doing the soul searching, because the very ones whose attention God is trying to get are telling youthat you're to morose, to tight, to legal, to whatever negative they can throw up to make you stop shining that light ... Is it any wonder that those burdened by the Lord with His "prophetic" message try to squirm out from under it, for the "prophetic" message always boils down to, "REPENT! ... FOR THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS AT HAND", beginning with the message instrument first! ... i did the same at first, "Lord is it me?" ... "Maybe i should tone done, if not just straight up stop with this repentance message" ... But we hear Him saying, "No, don't you do that", don't we? ... So i'm in 100% agreement with your next statement;--- Beloved lets keep preaching and pressing on no matter what this nation and world does! If they be annhilated let it not be said that theyw ere not fervently warned. Lets pray to God until their consciences become like a scorpion inside them if they don't repent (Ravinhill). Lets preach with eternity in our eyes! ---Brother Robert ... May our Lord and Saviour bolster you up by His miraculous Creator Spirit, in the same type of holy, call it like He shows it to you, boldness of Elijah and John the Baptist, tempered with the empathy of Jeremiah and Jesus, in making straight the path of our Lord's second coming ... Letting them know that denying our sinfulness, and refusing our washing in His blood will send us straight to a fiery, eternal torment called Hell, but we can get to the eternal bliss of Heaven if we just REPENT! ... In Jesus name i pray it ... Amen Preach on Brother Robert! ... Preach on!!!

Brother Jesse posted;--- well those who need to hear it must hear it, and those who don't need to hear it certainly won't mind if they do. ---This is why i pray for REVIVAL ... pure HOLY GHOST intervention where folk fall into repentance by the sheer convicting force of the Power of God Himself ... For i see no other way of re-ignition of Christ Church to boldy proclaiming that "harvest" message of repentance ... Like Ravenhill i long to see the day ...Fall fresh on us oh Lord Creator Spirit, and create in us ALL the heart of Christ ... Amen

I appreciate the encouragement, but can hardly take any credit. :) I am a wretched sinner with the rest. God has worked in my life to reveal how miserable, poor, blind, and naked I have been over the years. It was a sovereign act of God to burn this into me. BTW, the post that is going that Bro. Lars is doing on Richard Owens Roberts is an awesome thread. I have wanted to comment, but don't want to break the momentum. If we can preach repentance in love and compassion God will use it. May God keep all of us in a place of brokeness and charity. We need to get back to the two great commandments! God Bless.

--- We need to get back to the two great commandments! ---...and let ALL the Church say ... Amen!

It may be caused by the fear of man. They say that as an excuse not to preach against sin and to use the Law and not so much because they believe that.Possibly. Surely when you confront people with their sins, especially if they are complete strangers, it can make for a pretty awkward and uncomfy moment. I don't know too many people that seek out to be in such moments. Also, I think some people are afraid mentioning the commandments starts to border along legalism, or making Christianity sound as if it is just a list of "do's and dont's". When you keep things more "philosophical" it makes things much more "respectable" and palatable. My personal experience though is that when things are more of a debate format, people are simply more interested in arguing than anything else, and I personally believe that if you go from being a herald to an apologist, then you will not be as likely to win a soul.

Reading this thread it occurs to me that God did not give His law to Israel until He had delivered them from Egypt. However before that time He had revealed Himself to them in many ways. The whole issue of the law is that it is the law of "the LORD thy God which brought thee out of the land of Egypt and out of the house of bondage.." They had experienced this God and consequently His law must be taken seriously. We live in a culture which has no knowledge of the LORD thy God. I don't think we can begin with the law and sins, I think we have to begin with God. Of course, some have already begun to experience God and as such they may be ready to hear what He expects of us.The more I think about "not preaching grace until we have preached the law" the more unhappy I am with the concept. In any event the law was an expression of grace; And this is the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death. And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them. Yea, he loved the people; all his saints are in thy hand: and they sat down at thy feet; every one shall receive of thy words. (Deu 33:1-3 KJV)

Can we speak and preach about sin without talking about God?Can we speak and preach about God without talking about sin?

Can we speak and preach about sin without talking about God?Can we speak and preach about God without talking about sin?God was God before sin was sin, and our first biblical encounter of God has two full chapters without sin. The heavens talk about God without reference to sin, revealing God's deity and omnipotence but not His holiness. The Knowledge of the Holy (AW Tozer) has little to say about sin but much to say about God.So my answers would be 'no' to the first question, and 'yes' to the second.Jesus' first recorded words were not 'repent' but 'come and see'. [John 1:39]

To rephrase the question:Can we talk to fallen man about God without reference to man’s inability to relate properly to Him because of sin?Reading Tozer’s “The knowledge of the Holy” makes me turn to the side in shame – I know I am forgiven, moving from stage to stage of practical sanctification.If we really talk to each other, as well as to the non-Christian, about God the way Tozer and others do, our sinfulness would overwhelm us. The Holy Spirit brings conviction where conscience opens to the realities of God.Lars

Paul begins in the book of Romans preaching the Gospel showing man they are sinners utterly without excuse before God and are in danger of His wrath based upon their holding the truth in unrighteousness. This 'truth' is the law of God written upon their hearts to which their conscience has used as the STANDARD to either excuse or accuse them all the days of their life- whether they had ever heard of the Noachide Laws, Decalogue, the 613 Laws of the Mosaic System, or the non-grevious commandments of Christ. Every person on earth is born to some degree knowing right from wrong. If they walk in that 'light' God will give them more 'light'- if they will not He taketh away even that they hath (i.e. my Spirit will not always strive with man). This is evident in that God must give a person over to reprobation in order for them to commit certain sins. They are in effect 'cut loose' from a moral tie that binds them. Man before this cannot escape the condemning call of the conscience. This is why the modern Church growth philosphy is in error. What the unrepentant heart loves- the conscience rejects and what the conscience approves the unrepentant heart hates. A sinner is at war with themselves and it is therefor impossible to please them by watering down the Gospel. The ONLY hope we have in preaching the Gospel is to appeal to the conscience in such a way through the anointed word of God and the transforming power of the Holy Spirit that the will inclines itself to the counsel of the conscience and will submit to the dealings of the Holy Spirit. Romans 1:15. I am eager to preach the Gospel to you also who are in Rome. V. 17 for in it we learn that the just shall live by faith. V.18 For the wrath of God is revealed from Heaven against all unrighteousness of men who hold the truth in unrighteousness (supress the truth).Men supress the truth both in their own lives and in the lives of others. As much as in unrepentant man they both hide the truth from themselves and others. Moreover, when they cannot succeed in hiding that truth from themselves and others they distract them from that truth. Sin in its simplest form is opposition to God or rebellion against God- therefor to know anything about God- is to know anything of truth and to oppose God is to oppose the truth which God hath shown unto them (which is sin). This is summed up in this one statement, "The GOD that created you and therefor by rightful ownership deserves your obedience, you are willfully resisting and therefor deserve His wrath to the uttermost." The times of this ignorance God overlooked, whilst in His mercy chose to send His blessings, besides, till those peoples and nations filled up the measure of their sins, but NOW COMMANDETH everyone- everywhere to repent. Since the day this Gospel was first preached by the Apostles it is commanded that men repent upon hearing it, as soon as they hear it. Else, how shall they escape if they neglect so great of salvation? How much sorer punishment (than to die without mercy) do you suppose shall they be worthy who hath trodden under foot the Son of God and counted the blood of the Covenant whereby they were sanctified an unholy thing and done despite unto the Spirit of grace?A side issue to this is that if a man or woman is not made aware of their condition before God they will not love God as they should once they accept Christ. Nor will their hearts be filled with joy at the revelation of God's goodness extended upon them. If they do not love God as they should they will not love their neighbor as they should. To whom much is forgiven- the same loveth much. How could one love much that had not been made conscious to some degree of the enormity of their transgressions. The old lyric perhaps encapsulates these things all together: AT CALVARYYears I spent in vanity and pride,Caring not my Lord was crucified,Knowing not it was for me He diedOn Calvary.By God’s Word at last my sin I learned;Then I trembled at the law I’d spurned,Till my guilty soul imploring turnedTo Calvary.Now I’ve giv’n to Jesus everything,Now I gladly own Him as my King,Now my raptured soul can only singOf Calvary!Oh, the love that drew salvation’s plan!Oh, the grace that brought it down to man!Oh, the mighty gulf that God did spanAt Calvary!Chorus:Mercy there was great, and grace was free;Pardon there was multiplied to me;There my burdened soul found libertyAt Calvary.God Bless,-Robert

"The GOD that created you and therefor by rightful ownership deserves your obedience, you are willfully resisting and therefor deserve His wrath to the uttermost."Hi RobertI am not opposing this. I am just saying that sometimes you don't need to get to the end of the sentence in the first breath. In other words the first conversation could well be 'God created you'. The second conversation could be 'you are rightfully God's'.Some souls have been broken on the wheel of life and the first word to such does not need to be 'you are a sinner'. They will have to hear that word but I repeat that Christ's first word was 'come and see'. There is more than one sense to the phrase 'the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance'. Ezekiel says that the full work of repentance is the result of new birth. Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations. (Eze 36:31 KJV) Note the 'then' and see what preceeds it.I love the Lord's declaration of His purpose; The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified. (Isa 61:1-3 KJV) The 'day of vengeance' is fully a part of the gospel but it is a fair way down the list.

Hi Bro Ron,I think what you are saying brings great clarity. It is as though the Lord issues the priority list to reach those who are most ready and ripened to hear the Gospel first and with the means of healing, binding up, etc. Interesting the passage begins with the Meek or the humble. God resists the proud- but gives grace to the humble. These people don't need to be told how bad sin is- they have experienced it. Their hearts are prepared. The fallow ground is broken up. The seed of the good word may well find a lodging place. I certainly have followed this pattern over the years- but this just sort of puts it into a workable doctrine (as it were). God Bless,-Robert

Philologos posted;--- God was God before sin was sin, and our first biblical encounter of God has two full chapters without sin. ---This is true ... but my thought is that the rest of our Biblical encounter is all about sin, sins cosequences (death, hell and eternal damnation), sins solution (belief in Jesus), and sins finally destruction (in the fulfilment of the Revelation) ... So God is still God even after sin, in fact God is still God no matter what ...Without mankinds sin God's attribute of holiness had nothing diametrically opposed to it to make it stand out ... But boy after the fall of man, juxtaposed to his now unholiness, His holiness really came to fore, so much so that He destroyed the first world, and killed up a whole lot of unholiness in the OT ... So thank God for Jesus, but God is still holy, and man still unholy, and i believe we really need a good dose from time to time that without Christ we remain so, lest we forget, as it is obvious to me that so much of mankind already has ... As i've stated before look at Europe, particularly Britain, the once haven of Christianity, and God fearing men, and now America is following suit ... All we hear is Jesus loves you, Jesus loves you, but it's that same loving Jesus that's coming back to raise hell on earth at His Fathers bidding, all because so much of mankind is comfortable in the indulgence of sin.i watched a program last night about Pope Leo X, and how he sold indulgences for $$$ to supply his lifestyle as Pontif of the Roman church, and how Martin Luther came along and upset his apple cart by exposing such sin ... And it made me wonder if so many of todays Protestant preachers/denominations have come to a kind of soft core peddling of indulgences for the sins and unholiness of mankind, and especially within the Body, by only preaching God's love, and thereby eliminating any hard core preaching on hell, judgment and God's wrath, the facts that convict, against that sin and unholiness, tickling ears, for their continued benefit via tithes and offerings ... Now some might think me cynical for stating this, but the majority of preaching i hear today is about how much Jesus loves you, and keep those tithes and offerings coming ... But nobodys proclaiming that Hell's fire is hotter than those that engulfed the Worl Trades, and that the only place to jump is into more fire, all the while being housed in an eternal body registering the pain of that place thru-out all eternity ... Sobering thought isin't it, with a lot more motivation for the willfully sinful to sit up and take notice, preparing them to the message of the only way out ... Jesus!

....Oh and what i also meant to say is that we're in need of some Martin Luther's ... Preachers unafraid to call sin, sin, and relay it's consequenses! ... Amen

The Holy Spirit just reminded me that Brother Robert mentioned that we should go over to Brother Lars post of;PREACHING THAT HINDERS REVIVALby: RICHARD OWEN ROBERTShttps://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=2813&forum=40&post_id=&refresh=Goi just found it and now i know why the reminder ... This is what i'm talking about!2. Preaching that is TimidWhat ever happened to the fearless preachers whose fiery denunciations of sin and awesome warnings of impending doom used to grip the land? Are we too advanced a culture to be affected by prophets of God or are the men who think themselves called of God too timid to tell the truth? I remember that old Sunday School song: “Dare to be Daniel to stand alone! Dare to have a purpose firm! Dare to make it known!”Do you dare to be Daniel? Are you prepared to face your den of lions unafraid? Are you boldly standing, even if all alone? Are your purposes firmly set? Do all who you know, know to what you are unhesitatingly and compromisingly committed? Do you dare to resist the clock-watchers who are vastly more committed to keeping the services short than to the prosperity of Christ’s Kingdom? Do you dare to stand against the unregenerate leaders in your church, calling them to repentance and faith, even when they are scheming your departure? Do you dare to insist that the wealthy and prestigious must follow the same path of surrender and devotion to Jesus Christ as the poor and down-trodden? Do you dare to preach against the favorite sins of your congregation or is you preaching fashionable and acceptable to the unrepentant Christ-haters among your people? Do you dare to live a life of godly simplicity and open holiness before your watching world? Does the daring of Daniel mark your daily devotions? Does the courage of Christ characterize your Christian walk? Does the fearless passion of a post-Pentecost Peter power your preaching? Christians without courage are a strange and pathetic contradiction and a constant hindrance to revival. This says it all regarding the topic of this thread ... With this type of preaching if a man didn't know he was a sinner prior, he most assuredly would afterwards.