Menu

Amillennialism

B
BlazedbyGod

I am curious to know what people who believe in amillennialism believe pertaining to Satan being bound "a thousand" years-I know they say that that refers to the Gospel beings spread into all the world and satan thus not being able to "deceive the nations" any longer-but there are a few other parts of the Bible the refer to Satan being "bound a thousand years"-that I have not heard any amillennialist speak of. Such as the following:

Rev 20: 1 And I saw [b]an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more[/b], till the thousand years should be fulfilled: [b]and after that he must be loosed a little season[/b].

AM's say that it is the Gospel of Jesus Christ that has bound Satan (no doubt, that is a truth of scripture) but pertaining to that being the meaning of Rev 20, how can that be so, when the Scripture says " An angel took hold of Satan and bound him with the great chain, then threw him in the bottomless pit" see not only was the devil bound, but he was thrown into the bottomless pit-my question to the AM's is " What then is this bottomless pit"-is this also symbolic?

The other question I have, is this: Scripture says after the the thousand years are finished, Satan will be loosed a little season-now if in Rev 20 the binding of Satan refers to the Gospel being preached all over the world and that there is nothing Satan can do about this, then when Scripture says that he shall be "loosed a little season"-what does this mean-does this mean that now Satan will begin to prevail against the Gospel of Jesus Christ-because when you get to verse 7 it says:

7 [b]And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations[/b] which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Apparently after Satan is loosed from his PRISON , there are a group of people whom Satan does once again deceive.

How do AM's reconcile all this, to what they call Amillennialsim?

AM's say that it is the gospel that binds Satan, but John says that it was an angel with a great chain that bound Satan.

J
JaySaved

Hi, I am a "Loose Amillenlialist" by that I mean that I hold to it more than any other millennial position but I still hold to the fact that it doesn't quite answer all objections.

The first reason why I hold to AM is because Revelation is a book filled with symbolism and Revelation 20 is a good example:

I know of no one who believes that Satan is bound with a literal chain, a literal key, and in a literal bottomless pit with a literal seal over it. This is symbolic language.

Jesus says in Matt 12:29: "...how can someone enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house." The context here is Jesus plundering the strongholds of Satan and this is possible because the strongman (Satan) has been bound by the work of Christ.

With the coming of Christ Satan is bound, not in the sense that he cannot move around, but "that he might not deceive the nations any longer" Rev 20:3)

As for Satan being loosed; God will allow Satan at the end of the age to "deceive the nations". Yes, this will occur while the gospel is being preached. Why does God allow this? I have no idea other than that is my interpretation the events.

So to answer your question, I do not see the prison/bottomless pit as literal but symbolic.

Hope this helps understand how an AM thinks.

Blessings!

C
ChrisJD

Hi BlazedbyGod,


I would wonder the same things that you asked.


Sure we can allow for symbolisim, but with literal meaning, and not that which destroys all the sense and soundness of the words we are trying to understand.

A pit, closed off with a seal, is not a world-sized openair cage from which to still spit and hurl lies(2Co 4:3-4, John 8:44, 1Peter 5:8, 2Co 2:11).

T
theopenlife

Hello, friends. I'm working on this subject right now, and intend to have a full article in a few months.

My basic belief is that, just as the greater context of Rev. 20 implies, Satan is bound and prevented from inducing a collective, global persecution of the Church, and inducing the final deception by the Man of Sin. The "thousand years" are the time between the ascension and tribulation/return of Christ to judge the World and the Devil.

I heartily recommend:

[url=https://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?sourceonly=true&currSection=sermonssource&keyword=crichbaptist&subsetcat=series&subsetitem=The+Millennium]Chris Hand - 5 studies regarding the Millennium[/url], at sermonaudio... this is the most balanced and generous treatment of all views I've found. Very well stated.

Also, Sam Storm's article:
[url=http://www.enjoyinggodministries.com/article/problems-with-premillennialism/]Problems with Premillennialism[/url]

C
Christinyou

Pre millennialism will always draw jeers and arguments against, because it is all of Christ and none of man.

Who made all things? Who was all things made for?

Who will do all things for His Body the Church and draw Her to Himself for His Glory and our witness that He is God. He has made us, He has saved us, He has given us life in Himself, we are in Him which is our hope of Glory. Dead to sin, when we were crucified with Him on the Cross, it was me that died on the cross with Him, all my sin all my life, which is now made in Him to be pleasing to the Father just like the first Born beloved Son, In Whom we all move and live and have our being. We are His now by His working in us, we have no works but to do the works of Him that is in us, by Him and through Him, for He is our life, and it is in Him in whom we live.

"It is no longer I who live, but Christ who live in me. By this we know; Colossians 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: New creation race of God's Children, son's and heirs of God and Christ Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

Who do we live in by and as Him? It is Christ living in me coming forth as me, if I believe and want His life to come forth through me. I must give Him permission to use my life as His, that He might do greater thing in me than He has already done. It is His working in me mightily to bring forth the kingdom of God in the believers the Father has given Him.

Acts 17:28-31 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof He hath given assurance unto all men, in that He hath raised him from the dead.

This is our repentance:

Strong's Greek Dictionary
3340. metanoeo
Search for G3340 in KJVSL
metanoew metanoeo met-an-o-eh'-o
from 3326 and 3539; to think differently or afterwards, i.e. reconsider (morally, feel compunction):--repent.

"Feel compunction", to know it is Christ in us that is our life, and may we offer our lives a living sacrifice, Holy and acceptable to Him, which is only our reasonable service for what He has done for us.

Praise God in the Highest on this Easter Day that brought forth a resurrected Savior Jesus Christ who is now our life, He in us and us in Him and the Father in us also with the Holy Spirit in us forever.

There was only one reason Jesus was in that Church House this Easter morning, every believer that walked through the door has Jesus in Him born again in the believer by the Incorruptable Seed of the Father, Jesus Christ, no longer I, but Jesus Christ now lives in me and all who brought Him into that auditorium, new creatures by the Christ in them.

Amen: In Christ:Phillip

B
BlazedbyGod


JaySaved wrote:
The first reason why I hold to AM is because Revelation is a book filled with symbolism and Revelation 20 is a good example:

I know of no one who believes that Satan is bound with a literal chain, a literal key, and in a literal bottomless pit with a literal seal over it. This is symbolic language.

Jesus says in Matt 12:29: "...how can someone enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house." The context here is Jesus plundering the strongholds of Satan and this is possible because the strongman [b](Satan) has been bound by the work of Christ[/b].

With the coming of Christ Satan is bound, not in the sense that he cannot move around, but "that he might not deceive the nations any longer" Rev 20:3)

As for Satan being loosed; God will allow Satan at the end of the age to "deceive the nations". Yes, this will occur while the gospel is being preached. Why does God allow this? I have no idea other than that is my interpretation the events.

[b]So to answer your question, I do not see the prison/bottomless pit as literal but symbolic[/b].

Blessings!

Jaysaved, if the prison, chain, and bottomless pit are all symbollic, then do you believe that the "ANGEL" that John saw is also symbollic? Because John says that it was angel that bound Satan-so is this referring to Christ as an angel symbollically-and if you believe it is, then why so? Why did not John see the Lamb binding Satan?

Also, if it is with the coming of Christ that Satan is bound-then what does it mean for Satan to be loosed-does this mean that Christ will have to re-ascend back to Heaven so that he can be loosed? AM's say the gospel binds Satan, but then when it comes to Satan being loosed, how can that mean anything else except possibly that Satan began to prevail against the Gospel-but then AM's won't say this? The very nations that he was bound from not deceiving, he is loosed and goes out and deceives them to join his army.

K
KingJimmy

Revelation says that Satan is bound so that the nations will not experience deception for 1,000 years. Paul reminds us presently that Satan is the god of this world, deceiving and blinding many. The gospel liberates man from his tyranny, but, presently the Scriptures remind us that he roams about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. A roaming lion is not a bound serpent!

C
Christinyou

Who will Satan attack? Only those he knows he can devour. The roaming lion will not attack those that are stronger than he is. Who is stronger that Satan is? 1Jo 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
1Jo 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

The only reason that Satan can attack the believer is with God's permission, as with Job, for Job's good and God's Glory.

Job 37:1-24 At this also my heart trembleth, and is moved out of his place. Hear attentively the noise of his voice, and the sound that goeth out of his mouth. He directeth it under the whole heaven, and his lightning unto the ends of the earth. After it a voice roareth: he thundereth with the voice of his excellency; and he will not stay them when his voice is heard. God thundereth marvellously with his voice; great things doeth he, which we cannot comprehend. For he saith to the snow, Be thou on the earth; likewise to the small rain, and to the great rain of his strength. He sealeth up the hand of every man; that all men may know his work. Then the beasts go into dens, and remain in their places. Out of the south cometh the whirlwind: and cold out of the north. By the breath of God frost is given: and the breadth of the waters is straitened. Also by watering he wearieth the thick cloud: he scattereth his bright cloud: And it is turned round about by his counsels: that they may do whatsoever he commandeth them upon the face of the world in the earth. He causeth it to come, whether for correction, or for his land, or for mercy. Hearken unto this, O Job: stand still, and consider the wondrous works of God. Dost thou know when God disposed them, and caused the light of his cloud to shine? Dost thou know the balancings of the clouds, the wondrous works of him which is perfect in knowledge? How thy garments are warm, when he quieteth the earth by the south wind? Hast thou with him spread out the sky, which is strong, and as a molten looking glass? Teach us what we shall say unto him; for we cannot order our speech by reason of darkness. Shall it be told him that I speak? if a man speak, surely he shall be swallowed up. And now men see not the bright light which is in the clouds: but the wind passeth, and cleanseth them. Fair weather cometh out of the north: with God is terrible majesty. Touching the Almighty, we cannot find him out: he is excellent in power, and in judgment, and in plenty of justice: he will not afflict. Men do therefore fear him: he respecteth not any that are wise of heart.

Only the mind will and emotions can be attacked with permission, not the Spirit, For that is Christ and also the Holy Spirit in our minds, which is now the mind of Christ directed by the Holy Spirit's quickening. Satan has no access to the Christ in our spirit or the mind where the Holy Spirit dwells, unless permission is given for our good unto obedience and God's Glory by the Christ in us, conforming us to the Mind and life of Christ that is in us. For as He is so are we in this world.

In Christ: Phillip

C
ChrisJD

Hi again everyone,


Who will Satan attack? Only those he knows he can devour. The roaming lion will not attack those that are stronger than he is.


Phillip, this is contrary to the exhortation of scripture:

James 4:7, Eph 6:10-16, 1 Peter 5:8-9, 1Th 2:18


Chris

[i]Edited to correct a scripture refrence(1Th 2:18 was incorrectly entered as 1Th 2:8)[/i]

L
lovejt

There's alot of things that come up with the Amil position that shows its on unstable ground. The explanation of the first resurrection is one of them. Amil argues this is when you are born-again instead of the glorious hope at Christ's return. That is a big red-flag.

Also, all the disciples of the apostles (polycarp, justin martyr, etc) were pre-mil and looked forward to a literal 1000 year reign on earth. There are many things that come down the pipe once you get through the initial layer of just that the millenium is now. Too much 'spiritualizing'. Anyone can say anything about anything then. There are definite things literal and definite things not. All you have to do is get beyond the initial layer and the cracks start to show.

These are some good references.

http://www.answersinrevelation.org/
http://www.olivetdiscourse.com/

T
theopenlife

Having come from one camp to the other, I am familiar with the counter points being made and can only say there were responses to these which satisfied them for me.

As for what it means for Satan to be bound at present, consider that Christ is really, but not literally, a Lamb who sits upon a throne. Likewise, Satan is really, but not literally "bound with a chain." He is prevented by angelic forces from leading the world in a collective deception and persecution of the Church, the likes which has never been nor shall again be.

As for the first resurrection pertaining to regeneration, this seems fairly apparent from Eph. 2:1-2, and Rev. 20:6 - those who take part in it are holy. The promise given is that those who are regenerated shall not die in vain, but depart to be with Christ the King, as the adopted heirs of God, until the "thousand years" are complete.

H
hmmhmm

luk1:32  He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33  And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

jesus will sit on davids throne and reign.

T
theopenlife

James says this is fulfilled already:


Acts 15 -

"Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things."

The Jews read Amos 9 and looked for a physical kingdom. James interpreted it by the Spirit and showed that it is already here, as a spiritual kingdom.

J
JaySaved

BlazedbyGod said:

if the prison, chain, and bottomless pit are all symbollic, then do you believe that the "ANGEL" that John saw is also symbollic?

The angel can be literal or symbolic, it doesn't seem to matter. It could be a literal angel. Just because I see the chain, pit, and seal as symbolic doesn't mean I think everything is symbolic. Some things can be literal, for example Satan.

Also, if it is with the coming of Christ that @ BSatan is bound-then what does it mean for Satan to be loosed-does this mean that Christ will have to re-ascend back to Heaven so that he can be loosed?

Well, Christ is currently in Heaven, seated at the right hand of the Father (Psalm 110:1). Satan is currently bound, but the restraint will be loosed at the end of the age so that Satan can deceive again. Why? I have no idea, we will have to ask God about that. :-(


AM's say the gospel binds Satan, but then when it comes to Satan being loosed, how can that mean anything else except possibly that Satan began to prevail against the Gospel-but then AM's won't say this?

Satan is given the authority to wage war and for a time conquer even the saints Rev 13:7. But, Satan's end is sure and Christ will conquer. Satan will temporarily prevail against the gospel, but this is short-lived.

J
JaySaved

lovejt:

There's alot of things that come up with the Amil position that shows its on unstable ground. The explanation of the first resurrection is one of them. Amil argues this is when you are born-again instead of the glorious hope at Christ's return. That is a big red-flag.

We have to determine how many deaths are in view according to Revelation 20.
There are two:
First, natural death
Second, eternal death
Look closer at Revelation 20:4-6:

In verse 4-5, we see two groups: 1) The people who die during the Millennium and 2) those who "die" (raptured) at the return of Christ at the end of the age. (This is similar to Paul's writing in 1 Thessalonians 4:17-21).

Those who die during the Millennium reign with Christ in heaven.
Those who "die" when Christ returns do not "come to life" until then.

It is this "coming to life' that is called the First Resurrection. The First Resurrection is just another way of saying "Born again" (John 3) because it basically means that the Second Death has no power over them.

I admit that this is not a rock solid interpreation of this, but as of this moment this is where my study has brought me of this topic.

C
ChrisJD

HI again everyone,

JaySaved,


Satan is currently bound, but the restraint will be loosed at the end of the age so that Satan can deceive again.


Satan has never stopped deceiving(2Co 11:3, Mat 24:5 - 1Jn 4:3, 2Co 11:14, 1Jn 5:19, 2Ti 3:13 - Jn 8:44, Rev 12:9).


The Gospel is not a bottomless pit.


A bottomless pit with a [b]seal[/b] set upon it is not a throne and kingdom from which to devise lies and false religons that sway vast portions of the population of this world(Eph 6:12).

Chris

C
ChrisJD

Hi Michael,


James interpreted it by the Spirit and showed that it is already here, as a spiritual kingdom.


I think this is a good point. But also, I think that spiritual does not have to exclude physical(1 Co 10:3-4, 15:44) or that they should both not be together at some point in the future.

I think that there is more(Mat 25:31, Luke 19:11-17, 1 Co 4:8, Rev 2:26-27,3:21, 1Co 6:2-3, Rev 20:4).


Chris

K
KingJimmy


I think this is a good point. But also, I think that spiritual does not have to exclude physical(1 Co 10:3-4, 15:44) or that they should both not be together at some point in the future.

Indeed, this is a point many forget. Biblically speaking, this is a pattern the Scriptures consistently maintain. The spiritual always has tangible physical counterparts. Part of this is why physical miracles even occur. Such outward demonstrations are demonstrations of a spiritual kingdom. Indeed, the entire story of redemption as laid out in the Scripture is dependent upon this very thing.

That is why though we are redeemed presently, we await the "redemption of our bodies." (Romans 8) That is, the resurrection of the dead and the millennial reign of Christ.

K
KingJimmy


Satan is currently bound,

As somebody who used to lean towards Amillennialism, I can sympathize with this position. But I seriously must ask, where in all of the entirety of Scripture is Satan ever presented as presently bound? So far as I have studied, Satan is presently as the god of this age who is actively blinding the minds of those who do not believe, actively deceiving people, and is the "god of this world." Not only that, but he goes about freely, as a roaming lion, actively devouring whomever he can.

Indeed, the spirit of anti-Christ is ever present in this world. How can this be if Satan is presently bound?

C
Christinyou

Romans 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Christ is our Armour, and Satan cannot attack unless he is given permission as with Paul, who ask for the messenger to be taken away, that Satan might flee, But God did not for Paul's good and God's glory. To keep Paul from being puffed up. Only with permission can Satan cause any problems for those that have the Armour of God, for who is the Armour of God?

Ephesians 6:10-24 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints; And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel, For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak. But that ye also may know my affairs, and how I do, Tychicus, a beloved brother and faithful minister in the Lord, shall make known to you all things: Whom I have sent unto you for the same purpose, that ye might know our affairs, and that he might comfort your hearts. Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Grace be with all them that love our Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity. Amen. Written from Rome unto the Ephesians by Tychicus.

We have Christ, Put Him on and the devil must flee.

We have no power to rebuke Satan, the Christ in us is why He must flee, that is the Armour that cannot be penetrated unless our faith has not Christ in its formation in us. Believe and Satan must flee, it is Christ in you that Satan must flee from, by His Faith in us that the Armour of God is protecting us from, any fiery darts and His lies, trying to get us to acknowledge the he has power us.

Ephesians 6:10-24 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. Put on (Christ) the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take unto you (Christ) the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, (in the liberty where with Christ has made you free) having your loins girt about with truth, (of Christ) and having on the breastplate of righteousness; (Christ who is our righteousness) And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; (which is Christ) Above all, taking the shield of faith, (The faith of Jesus Christ) Gal 2:16&20:
wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, (the Spirit of Christ) and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: (Who is Christ) John 1: 1-4 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints; And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel, For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak. But that ye also may know my affairs, and how I do, Tychicus, a beloved brother and faithful minister in the Lord, shall make known to you all things: Whom I have sent unto you for the same purpose, that ye might know our affairs, and that he might comfort your hearts. Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Grace be with all them that love our Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity. Amen. Written from Rome unto the Ephesians by Tychicus.

In a sense, Satan is bound, but bound in Chains in a sealed pit, but bound by the power of Christ in the Believer. This is where Satan does his best work, deceiving believers that he still has power over them. So my brethren, "Stand fast in the liberty wherein Christ has made you free".

Ps 89:28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.
Ps 111:8 They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness.
Jer 46:14 Declare ye in Egypt, and publish in Migdol, and publish in Noph and in Tahpanhes: say ye, Stand fast, and prepare thee; for the sword shall devour round about thee.
1Co 16:13 Watch ye, stand fast in the faith, quit you like men, be strong.
Ga 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Php 1:27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;
Php 4:1 Therefore, my brethren dearly beloved and longed for, my joy and crown, so stand fast in the Lord, my dearly beloved.
1Th 3:8 For now we live, if ye stand fast in the Lord.
2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

In Christ: Phillip

C
ChrisJD

Phillip,


We have Christ, Put Him on and the devil must flee.


I think that is getting closer to the exhortation of scripture(Eph 6:11-13, James 4:7).


B
BlazedbyGod

Could an AM's explain to me what it means for Satan to be "loosed from his prison and go out to deceive the nations" again- I am asking what is the symbollic AM interpretation of ".... after that he must be loosed a little season"-what does this mean according to AM's?

J
JaySaved

ChrisJD -

Satan has never stopped deceiving

True. Satan has never stopped deceiving, but he cannot deceive the nations as he has been able to previously.

KingJimmy -

As somebody who used to lean towards Amillennialism, I can sympathize with this position. But I seriously must ask, where in all of the entirety of Scripture is Satan ever presented as presently bound?

In Matthew 12:29 Jesus clearly speaks of Satan has having been bound. The casting out of demons represents that Jesus has first bound the strongman.

I believe we may be talking past one another because we have slightly different understandings of the word Bind.

The binding of Satan does not mean that Satan is dead and powerless, but that Satan is powerless to stop the spread of the Gospel into the nations.

Satan is still the god of this age who blinds the minds of those who do not believe, but (and this is the greatest part) Satan's blinding is powerless before Christ, Satan's deception crumbles before the inward-working of the Spirit, and Satan is a skinned-cat running for his life before the advance of the gospel.

K
KingJimmy


True. Satan has never stopped deceiving, but he cannot deceive the nations as he has been able to previously.

World War 1 and World War 2 suggests to me that he has deceived entire nations on a massive and unprecedented scale, and is ever increasing in his ability to do so. The spirit of anti-Christ has been ever at work, and will one day find its fullest expression in the Man of Sin.

I think I am seeking a more tangible definitive answer of how Satan is presently bound. So far as I can tell, he's up to the same things he has been up to since the creation of the world. The way I understand Revelation 20, there comes a span of time for 1,000 years (which I concede, may be symbolic in actual length, but a long span of time nonetheless), in which Satan will no longer deceive anybody in any way shape or form for the duration of the millennial reign of Christ, until he is unbound to deceive the nations one more time.

Also, what does it mean for Satan to be unbound if he is presently bound?

There seems to be some vagueness to what a bound/unbound Satan looks like.

J
JaySaved

World War 1 and World War 2 suggests to me that he has deceived entire nations on a massive and unprecedented scale, and is ever increasing in his ability to do so. The spirit of anti-Christ has been ever at work, and will one day find its fullest expression in the Man of Sin.

The extent to which Satan can deceive the nations is not something I can give an answer to. All I can say is that according to Matthew 12:29 Jesus is telling us that with His coming and work He has "bound" Satan.

I assume you agree with Jesus' statement that He has bound Satan.

The question then becomes: Is there another 'Millennial' binding? One can argue that there will be, but I argue that one doesn't have to.

When Jesus came, lived, and died; He set the captives free (Luke 4:18). Yes, Satan can still possess people in the gospels, but Jesus sets them free. Yes, nations can rise up in warfare, but Christ redeems people. A great real-life example of this is in Luke 13:16, where we see a woman bound by Satan who has been loosed. Satan's work cannot stand before Christ.

Revelation 20 is simply symbolic language to describe that Jesus has ushered in a period of time in which the gospel is to be carried out into all the world. The gospel can go into all the world because Satan is bound (i.e., powerless to stop it.)

Also, what does it mean for Satan to be unbound if he is presently bound?

That there is coming a day (maybe we are already in it) when Satan will be able to rise up against the spread of the gospel and for a season prevail against it. Why is this so? I have no idea, but that is what the Bible says.

Regardless of your millennial stand, you have to believe that things will get really bad before the end, then Christ will return.

B
BlazedbyGod

Jaysaved,

How can Jesus be telling us that in in Matt 12:29, when we read in Luke the remainder of the story in a different Gospel:

Luke 11:20 But if I with the finger of God cast out [b]devils[/b], no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. 21 When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: 22 But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils. 23 He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth. 24 When the [b]unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will RETURN unto my house whence I came out[/b]. 25 And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished. 26 [b]Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; AND THEY ENTER IN, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first[/b].

How can Rev 20 be symbolic to a time that Jesus has ushered in, when Rev 20 was written AFTER the Gospels were completed-and not to mention the Bible clearly says an angel is the one that binds Satan, it doesn't say the Gospel. If the 1000 years are symbollic, and the pit is symbolic, then what is the angel symbolic of?

Jesus is clearly talking about unclean spirits being stronger then mortal man-until the man gains some strength, however, the evil needs to go ant get 7 other spirits wickeder than himself so they can BIND or spoil the man again-this is clear by Jesus's statement "...and the the last state of that man is worse than the first"-because in the beginning the man only had one unclean spirit in him who was cast out, but now he has 8 unclean spirits returning to him .

Jesus could not have been talking about him and Satan because there are no 7 other spirits more wicked than the Devil-he is the Chief Evil.

John was writing about things that had NOT happened yet:

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants [b]things which must shortly come to pass[/b]; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:


J
JaySaved

John was writing about things that had NOT happened yet:

Then how do you interpret Revelation 12:1-17? Are these events not speaking of Christ's birth, life and resurrection? Are they not talking about the fall of Satan as Jesus said in Luke 10:18?

Clearly Revelation 12 must be taken symbolically because if you say that Christ is the "male child" then you are saying that He wasn't born before Revelation 12 and not before John wrote the book.

Also, angel can be rendered messenger, which considering the symbolic nature of the book it is perfectly legitimate to fit "gospel" or "Christ" as the interpretation.

Blessings.

B
BlazedbyGod


JaySaved wrote:
John was writing about things that had NOT happened yet:

Then how do you interpret Revelation 12:1-17? Are these events not speaking of Christ's birth, life and resurrection? Are they not talking about the fall of Satan as Jesus said in Luke 10:18?

Clearly Revelation 12 must be taken symbolically because if you say that Christ is the "male child" then you are saying that He wasn't born before Revelation 12 and not before John wrote the book.

Also, angel can be rendered messenger, which considering the symbolic nature of the book it is perfectly legitimate to fit "gospel" or "Christ" as the interpretation.

Blessings.

Why would John be seeing the birth of Christ-when he already wrote about the birth of Christ in the Gospel of John? Also pertaining to Rev 12:1-17-when Jesus was born, did a picture or image of Mary appear in the sky? When Jesus was born, did scripture ever say that Mary had a crown of 12 stars around her head? What Gospel is that in?-because I have never seen that. Also, are you implying that Satan was kicked out of heaven AFTER the birth of Jesus?

Angel can been rendered as "messenger" but Rev 12 says this "ANGEL" DESCENDED from Heaven having the great chain to bind Satan. So this messenger, was a messenger who "DESCENDED FROM HEAVEN"-an angel, even how it is rendered in the verse.

C
Christinyou

Quote:

"""Then how do you interpret Revelation 12:1-17? Are these events not speaking of Christ's birth, life and resurrection?"""

No, They are speaking of the Church the Body of Christ and Satan's fall by Her testimony and the Blood of the Lamb.

The Woman is not Mary, though what happened to Mary is by the Holy Spirit, and what happens to the Church is the representation herein of The Holy Spirit at Pentecost, and the Life of Christ, by His Spirit in the believer giving the Church His Body The place where she is Safe, by the Christ in each of Her believers also His Bride.

In Christ: Phillip

J
JaySaved

Why would John be seeing the birth of Christ-when he already wrote about the birth of Christ in the Gospel of John?

This is only absurd if you read Rev as occurring during a 7 year tribulation and take a very literal interpretaion, which I maintain you do not have to.

So if the Male-child in Rev 12 is not Christ then who is he?

C
Christinyou

Quote:


"""So if the Male-child in Rev 12 is not Christ then who is he?"""

Offspring of God, The Body of Christ, offspring by birth, rebirth, individuals as a son of God, by One Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Acts 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

"offspring"
Strong's Greek Dictionary
1085. genos
Search for G1085 in KJVSL
genoV genos ghen'-os
from 1096; "kin" (abstract or concrete, literal or figurative, individual or collective):--born, country(-man), diversity, generation, kind(-red), nation, offspring, stock.

Galatians 4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant , but a son ; and if a son , then an heir of God through Christ .

In Christ: Phillip

J
JaySaved

If the male-child born in Rev 12 is the "Offspring of God, The Body of Christ, offspring by birth, rebirth, individuals as a son of God, by One Spirit."

Then do you hold the view, as BlazedbyGod does, that Revelation refers to things that have not happened yet?

B
BlazedbyGod


JaySaved wrote:
If the male-child born in Rev 12 is the "Offspring of God, The Body of Christ, offspring by birth, rebirth, individuals as a son of God, by One Spirit."

Then do you hold the view, as BlazedbyGod does, that Revelation refers to things that have not happened yet?

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants [b]things which must shortly come to pass[/b]; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

The Bible clearly states this, and I am just in agreement with it. " ...things that must shortly come to pass".

The events that Rev 12 speaks of pertaining to the the woman and the male-child, does any of the 4 Gospels speak of any of those events happening at the birth of Christ? I am asking do either Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John in the Gospels speak of Mary having 12 stars around her head, and the dragon being present to put her and her child in danger from him, the devil himself. Did the war in heaven spoken of in Rev 12 take place AFTER the birth of the Messiah?

Trutfully speaking, even the part about Satan being kicked out of heaven in Rev 12, is a FUTURE event (not a past one)-for this doesn't speak of him being kicked out of the 3 third Heaven (where God's throne is) but rather of the 2nd heaven, the celestial heavens (sky, space, the air ) His realm is IN the air, not actually, physically ON earth yet. How do I know this:

Rev 12:. 7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, [b]NOW is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of OUR BRETHREN is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him BY THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death[/b].

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. 13 [b]And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child[/b].

Does the Bible ever in any Gospel speak of Satan "persecuting" Mary AFTER the birth of Jesus?

When Satan was kicked out of Heaven in the beginning, God did that, this time spoken in Rev 12, it is God sending Michael the Arch angel to FIGHT against Satan, and the last and final time will be when Satan by God himself is cast OUT of the earth INTO the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone, where the beast and false prophet will be-

Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. 5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: [b]and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne[/b]

When Jesus was born, was he " caught up unto God and to his throne" as soon as he was born? WHen Mary was in labor with Christ, does any Gospel teach that the devil himself was standing RIGHT in front of her to devour Christ as soon as he was born? Honestly, I am just asking these questions, because I have never seen this in the scripture?


J
JaySaved

The events that Rev 12 speaks of pertaining to the the woman and the male-child, does any of the 4 Gospels speak of any of those events happening at the birth of Christ?

Revelation 12 is symbolic. I do not believe myself that the woman is speaking of Mary. I believe it is speaking of the new covenant as in Galatians 4:26. So the gospels do not speak of Jesus' birth, life, and death in that way but clearly the male child who is the one "who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron" (Rev 12:5) is Christ. Reference Matthew 2:6.

Also, Revelation 12 is not telling us that Satan is cast out of the 2nd heaven. That is an unnecessary inference. John is not making any distinction here between the 3rd and 2nd heavens. Satan is cast out of heaven and takes a third of the angels with him. In your interpretation Revelation 12:12 makes no sense: "Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time." If Satan is cast out of the 2nd heavens then basically who is God talking to when He says "rejoice, ye [2nd] heavens, and ye that dwell in them" [because Satan has been cast out of the sky?]"

Look at Revelation 12 again [without the box of assuming that it must speak of things happening in the future only (and not violating Revelation 1)] and you will see the following:
- A Messiah born and raised to heaven
- Satan's fall from heaven
- War against the rest of the Messiah's "offspring"

I maintain that one doesn't have to conclude that this is speaking only of future events because all of these events have already occurred.

C
Christinyou

I have not seen Jesus as John describes Him, I know no other man that has. These must be in the future. John States in Revelation, Jesus Himself speaking; Revelation 1:18-19 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; So we must rightly divide the things we have seen by revelation of the Word of God in our Minds, by the Holy Spirit. We must also divide the things from revelation to experience that we have in our lives and our minds. We must also believe in the things that are to come for the Body of Christ, His Church, His Bride, whom He Loves and Gave Himself for Her and will present Her to Himself perfect without spot or wrinkle. "So shall we ever be with the Lord, therefore comfort one another with these words".

In Christ: Phillip


Revelation 1:11-19 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

J
JaySaved

We are at an impasse because I disagree with your position that Revelation only contains future events.

C
Christinyou

That is the only way Amillennialists and Preterists can believe.


"Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;"

I said, "we must rightly divide the past, present and future in the Book of Revelations." I did not say "only" future.

In Christ: Phillip

J
JaySaved

So you can believe that Revelation can contain past events from the perspective of John?

C
Christinyou

From the perspective of Jesus and His angel, by the writing in the book of John, yes, past, present and future.

In Christ: Phillip

J
JaySaved

So is it possible that Revelation 12 (which a picture of the male-child born and Satan being cast out of heaven) is giving a symbolic description of past events?

S
sermonindex


JaySaved wrote:
So is it possible that Revelation 12 (which a picture of the male-child born and Satan being cast out of heaven) is giving a symbolic description of past events?

Both - unequivically.

The woman is Israel - the man-child is Jesus, from the time that the three wise men announced His Coming, He was wanted dead and the end of Chpt 12 is "us".

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have [b]the testimony of Jesus Christ.[/b]

Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have [b]the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. [/b]


GOD forgive those who see the tribulation period as just for THE JEWS.

C
Christinyou

Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible
Revelation 12:13
Verse 13. And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth. That is, when Satan saw that he was doomed to discomfiture and overthrow, as if he had been cast out of heaven; when he saw that his efforts must be confined to the earth, and that only for a limited time, he "persecuted the woman," and was more violently enraged against the church on earth.
He persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. Cmt. on Re 12:5. The child is represented as safe; that is, the ultimate progress and extension of the church was certain, But Satan was permitted still to wage a warfare against the church-- represented here by his wrath against the woman, and by her being constrained to flee into the wilderness. It is unnecessary to say that, after the Pagan persecutions ceased, and Christianity was firmly established in the empire; after Satan saw that all hope of destroying the church in that manner was at an end, his enmity was vented in another form--in the rise of the Papacy, and in the persecutions under that--in opposition to spiritual religion no less determined and deadly than that which had been waged by Paganism.

William Burkitt's Expository Notes
Revelation 12:13
Observe here, The incessant and restless malice of Satan and his instruments against the church; neither his fore-mentioned disappointment, his present foil and downfall, nor his fear of future destruction, could move him to desist: but, having attempted to destroy the church with the fire of persecution before, he endeavours to drown it with a flood of errors now. Diabolus mutat consilium, non deponit malitiam; the devil sometimes changes his methods in doing mischief, but never lays down his malice: he persecutes the woman, the church of Christ, after another manner, namely, by a flood of errors and heresies.
Observe, 2. The care that God took for his church's preservation from this fatal mischief also: to the woman were given the wings of a great eagle, for flight into the wilderness; that is, all means and ways of evasion, which God out of his care for his church provides for her safety and protection in the time of trouble: the church's flight in time of persecution is by no means to be censured or condemned, especially when God by his providence provides her wings, that is, gives her opportunity so to do.

Observe, 3. The place she flies into for safety, namely the wilderness, called her place, because prepared by God for her safety; here she is nourished, that is, hath spiritual food provided for her by God, and a number of faithful ministers are qualified for the feeding of her; for a time, and times, and half a time, that is, for a certain time determined by God, but altogether unknown to us; thus when the church meets with new distresses, God provides for her new deliverances.

Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible
Revelation 12:5
Verse 5. And she brought forth a man child. Representing, according to the view above taken, the church in its increase and prosperity--as if a child were born that was to rule over all nations. Cmt. on Re 12:2.
Who was to rule all nations. That is, according to this view, the church thus represented was destined to reign in all the earth, or all the earth was to become subject to its laws. Compare Cmt. on Da 7:13.

With a rod of iron. The language here used is derived from Ps 2:9: "Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron." The form of the expression here used "who was to rule"--oV mellei poimainein is derived from the Septuagint translation of the Psalm--poimaineiV-- "thou shalt rule them;" to wit, as a shepherd does his flock. The reference is to such control as a shepherd employs in relation to his flock--protecting, guarding, and defending them, with the idea that the flock is under his care; and, on the supposition that this refers to the church, it means that it would yet have the ascendency or the dominion over the earth. The meaning in the phrase, "with a rod of iron," is, that the dominion would be strong or irresistible--as an iron sceptre is one that cannot be broken or resisted. The thoughts here expressed, therefore, are

(a) that the church would become universal--or that the principles of truth and righteousness would prevail everywhere on the earth;

(b) that the ascendency of religion over the understandings and consciences of men would be irresistible--as firm as a government administered under a sceptre of iron; yet

(c) that it would be rather of a character of protection than of force or violence, like the sway which a shepherd wields over his flock. I understand the "man child" here, therefore, to refer to the church in its increase under the Messiah, and the idea to be, that church was, at the time referred to, about to be enlarged, and that, though its increase was opposed, yet it was destined ultimately to assert a mild sway over all the world. The time here referred to would seem to be some period in the early history of the church when religion was likely to be rapidly propagated, and when it was opposed and retarded by violent persecution--perhaps the last of the persecutions under the Pagan Roman empire.

And her child was caught up unto God. This is evidently a symbolical representation. Some event was to occur, or some Divine interposition was to take place, as if the child thus born were caught up from the earth to save it from death, and was rendered secure by being in the presence of God, and near his throne. It cannot be supposed that anything like this would literally occur. Any Divine interposition to protect the church in its increase, or to save it from being destroyed by the dragon--the fierce Pagan power--would be properly represented by this. Why may we not suppose the reference to be to the time of Constantine, when the church came under his protection; when it was effectually and finally saved from Pagan persecution; when it was rendered safe from the enemy that waited to destroy it? On the supposition that this refers to an increasing but endangered church, in whose defence a civil power was raised up, exalting Christianity to the throne, and protecting it from danger, this would be well represented by the child caught up to heaven. This view may derive confirmation from some well-known facts in history. The old Pagan power was concentrated in Maximin, who was emperor from the Nile to the Bosphorus, and who raged against the gospel and the church "with Satanic enmity." "Infuriate at the now imminent prospect of the Christian body attaining establishment in the empire, Maximin renewed the persecution against Christians within the limits of his own dominion; prohibiting their assemblies, and degrading and even killing their bishops." Compare Gibbon, i. 325, 326. The last struggle of Pagan Rome to destroy the church by persecution, before the triumph of Constantine, and the public establishment of the Christian religion, might be well represented by the attempt of the dragon to destroy the child; and the safety of the church, and its complete deliverance from Pagan persecution, by the symbol of a child caught up to heaven, and placed near the throne of God. The persecution under Maximin was the last struggle of Paganism to retain the supremacy, and to crash Christianity in the empire. "Before the decisive battle," says Milner, "Maximin vowed to Jupiter that, if victorious, he would abolish the Christian name. The contest between Jehovah and Jupiter was now at its height, and drawing to a crisis:" The result was the defeat and death of Maximin, and the termination of the efforts of Paganism to destroy Christianity by force. Respecting this event, Mr. Gibbon remarks, "The defeat and death of Maximin soon delivered the church from the last and most implacable of her enemies," i. 326. Christianity was, after that, rendered safe from Pagan persecution. Mr. Gibbon says, "The gratitude of the church has exalted the virtues of the generous patron who seated Christianity on the throne of the Roman world." If, however, it should be regarded as a forced and fanciful interpretation to suppose that the passage before us refers to this specific event, yet the general circumstances of the times would furnish a fulfilment of what is here said.

(a) The church would be well represented by the beautiful woman.

(b) The prospect of its increase and universal dominion would be well represented by the birth of the child.

(c) The furious opposing Pagan power would be well represented by the dragon in its attempts to destroy the child.

(d) The safety of the church would be well represented by the symbol of the child caught up to God, and placed near his throne.

{a} "she" Isa 7:14
{b} "who" Ps 2:9

John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
Revelation 12:5

And she brought forth a man child,… Not Christ, literally and personally considered, or Christ in his human nature, as made of a woman, and born of a virgin, which was a fact that had been years ago; but Christ mystically, or Christ in his members, who are called by his name, because he is formed in them, and they are the seed of the woman, the church; and many of these were brought forth to Christ by the church in the primitive times, who were a manly birth, hale, strong, and robust Christians; or rather this manly birth may design a more glorious appearing and breaking forth of the kingdom of Christ in the Roman empire; for though Christ came as a King, yet his kingdom was not with observation in the days of his flesh; and though, upon his ascension to heaven, he was made and declared Lord and Christ, and had a kingdom and interest in the world, and even in the Roman empire, during the first three centuries, yet this was attended with the cross and persecution; but now, towards the close of that period, Constantine, a Christian emperor, was born, under whose influence and encouragement the Gospel was spread, and the kingdom of Christ set up and established in the empire; and this seems to be the thing intended here, he being of a generous, heroic, and manly disposition:

who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron; this has a manifest reference to Ps 2:9; which psalm, and the passage referred to in it, evidently belong to Christ; and as this is represented as something future, what should be hereafter, and not what would immediately take place, it may regard the kingdom of Christ in the last times, of which the present breaking forth of it in Constantine's time was an emblem and pledge; and may denote the universality of it, it reaching to all the kingdoms of the world, and the manner which Christ will rule, especially over his enemies, antichrist and his followers, whom he will destroy with the breath of his mouth, and break in pieces with his rod of iron, and order all that would not have him to reign over them slain before him; and as this may be applied to Christ mystical, the seed of the church, and members of Christ, as it is in Re 2:26; it may relate to their reign with Christ on earth, when they shall sit on thrones, and judge the world, when the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven shall be given to there; but since this is expressly said of the man child in the text, it may be expressive even of the temporal government of Constantine, who was an heroic and victorious prince, and extended his dominions to the several parts of the world; as far as Britain to the west, and all Scythia to the north, Ethiopia to the south, and the remote parts of India to the east, even to the ultimate parts of the whole world, as Eusebius1 affirms, making his kingdom to be three times larger than that of Alexander the great: and more especially it may describe the kingdom of Christ in his times; which was spread throughout all the nations of the empire; when Paganism was demolished, both in the continent and in the isles of the sea, and the strong holds Satan were pulled down, not by carnal, but spiritual weapons; when multitudes of souls were converted by the word, the rod of Christ's strength, and when the saints were guided, directed, fed, and comforted by it; for the allusion seems to be to the shepherd's rod, with which he leads and feeds his sheep; the same word signifies both to rule and feed:

and her child caught up unto God, and to his throne; which is to be understood not of Christ's ascent to heaven in human nature, when he was set down on the same throne with his Father; nor of Christ mystical, or of the saints being caught up into the air, to meet the Lord and be for ever with him, and sit down with him on the same throne; but rather of some glorious advance of the church and kingdom of Christ on earth; for as "to fall from heaven" is expressive of debasement and meanness, and of a low estate that a person is brought into, Isa 14:12; so an ascending up to heaven, as the two witnesses in the preceding chapter are said to do, denotes exaltation, or a rise to some more glorious state and condition, which was the case of the church in Constantine's time: and this may also take in the accession of Constantine himself to the imperial throne, which was the throne of God; for king's have their sceptres, thrones, and kingdoms from him, they his viceregents, and in some measure represent and are therefore called gods, and the children of the most high; yea, since Constantine, as advanced to the empire, was such an instrument in Christ's hand for the setting up and establishing his kingdom in it, Christ himself may be here represented as reigning over the Roman empire, as a presage and prelude of his reigning over all the earth another day.


1. De Vita Constantini, l. 1. c. 8.

The Woman is the Church, the man child is her offspring the Body of Christ as individual members in One Spirit, which we have all been made to drink into. 1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Again the woman the Church, her man child, the offspring of God by Jesus Christ as son's of God.

In Christ: Phillip

S
sermonindex

Brother, this has been debated possibly since immediately after this book was distributed.

There is no consensus on Chpt 12, most especially from those in e-sword and Reformed theology types that have placed-down Israel.

Just for one of the 'commentators' from the opposing viewpoint on Chpt 12, I agree with Zac Poonen on this --

- [i]"In Rev. 12, we read of Satan being enraged with certain people. There we read of him first trying to devour the Man-child (Jesus Christ) that the woman (Israel) had brought forth into the world. Satan could not succeed there, and the Man-child grew up, completed His ministry and ascended up to the throne of God (Rev. 12:4,5). Satan's fury is now directed against the younger brothers of this Man-child. These are described as those "who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus" (Rev. 12:17 b). These are the disciples of Jesus whose life is characterised by total obedience to the commandments of God and who boldly hold fast to the testimony of Jesus. They open their mouths, speaking about everything that Jesus Himself testified to - for this is "the testimony of Jesus". There are very few like these on earth today, for there are very few churches in the world now preaching total obedience to God's commandments."[/i]


When is the Church ever referred to as a "male"?


Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with [b]the remnant of her seed[/b], which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Who is her "seed" and who are the remnant of That Seed?

Did not The Seed - The Messiah come out of Israel [Rom 11:13-27]?

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Heb 2:16 For verily He took not on Him the nature of angels; but He took on Him the seed of Abraham.


I just truly fear that we may be taking Scripture about HIM as for ourselves, when Rev 12:17 is the Blessing that we have by His incarnation / birth and His being Lifted up to His Throne.

S
sermonindex

I should have said - I love e-sword and all the other Commentaries in book form that we have, but when it comes to The Revelation, I've found most of these old-time favorites to be almost useless. [Dan 12:9]

I don't want to put down any of these commentators of old but if you read Rev 12, you see there are 'three' different people mentioned - the woman - the manchild - and the remnant of that seed or the remnant of that manchild -------- these commentators have All three as the Church?
We'd need to understand their position on eschatology and Israel to understand why.

GOD Bless.

H
hmmhmm

Good thoughts J.I.G, i have noticed the same, maybe because in the days of old israel being a nation was very far away, but we can see more then they could, and we see it happening before our eyes. Zac Poonens book on revelation is outstanding i think, a must read for all who are interested in the end times, and we all should be, not for the sake of knowing just for knowing, but for being one of these that keep all Gods commandments.


here is one of the best commentaries i read on revelation, verse by verse study.

[url=http://www.cfcindia.com/web/mainpages/book_window.php?book=the_final_triumph]the final triumph by Zac Poonen[/url]

H
hmmhmm

excerpt from the above named book by brother Poonen:

CHAPTER TWELVE

V.1,2: And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. And she was with child; and she cried out, being in labour and in pain to give birth.”

Whom does this woman symbolise?

The best way to interpret Scripture is by comparing Scripture with Scripture. There is only one place in the entire Bible where “the sun, moon and 12 stars” are used to describe a community of people - and that is in Genesis 37:9, where Joseph related his dream to his brothers saying, “The sun and the moon and eleven stars bowed down to me”. His father understood what it meant and rebuked him saying, “Shall I and your mother, and your eleven brothers actually come to bow ourselves before you to the ground?” But that was what finally happened in Egypt. So the Bible interprets the sun, moon and 12 stars as a picture of Jacob’s family members. So the woman in Rev.12 is actually a symbol of the nation of Israel that came from that family.

The woman was in labour. In Micah 5:2-4,, we read, “Bethlehem….. from you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel....He will give them up until the time when she who is in labour has borne a child. Then the remainder of His brethren (the Gentiles who would be converted) will return to the sons of Israel. And He will arise and shepherd His flock in the strength of the Lord”. There we see the woman Israel being in labour and bringing forth Jesus Christ. (See also Romans 9:4,5).

V.3: And another sign appeared in heaven; and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems.

This dragon is Satan (v.9). We will study the seven heads and ten horns in detail when we study Chapter 13. But let me just say here that they symbolise a world government and this signifies Satan’s control of the governments of the world. We read in Dan. 10. of an evil spirit who was in control of the nation of Persia. And we read in Eph. 6:12. that we wrestle with the world’s rulers who sit in the heavenly places. The real world-rulers are not in the capital cities of the world. Those leaders are only the puppets who are pulled by the strings operated by spirit-forces in the heavenlies. This is why the church is told to pray for those who are in authority, so that the activities of those evil spirits are bound. Thus the church has authority to influence the government leaders of every country.

The dragon is red - the colour of blood and murder. Jesus said in Jn.8:44. that the devil was a murderer. He also said that Satan comes to steal, to kill and to destroy. That is why he is a red dragon.

When God created him, he was not like this. He was the most beautiful of all of God’s creation. We read in Ezek.28:13 that he was an anointed cherub who once ruled over the garden of God. But when pride and a rebellious attitude came into his heart, he became a horrible dragon.

Even one who is as pure as an angel can become like a dragon if he allows pride to enter his heart. Or let a little of the spirit of rebellion against authority come into your heart - whether that authority be your parents or your boss in the office or your elder in the church - and you will soon become like a dragon. Satan is forever seeking to make people just like himself, just as the Holy Spirit seeks to make people like Jesus! Satan succeeds in making people like himself whenever he is able to infect them with his spirit of pride or rebellion.

V.4: And his tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven, and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child.

Since the angels are called stars in Job 38:7 and in Rev.9:1,2, this probably indicates that one third of the angelic host joined Satan in his rebellion. In Isa. 9:15 a deceiving prophet is called “a tail”. So the dragon’s tail possibly speaks of the deception of Lucifer with which he led astray millions of God’s angels who then became demons.

The dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth so that when she gave birth he might devour her child. This has had a partial fulfilment throughout the history of Israel. In Exod. 1:16, we read that Pharaoh gave an order to the Israeli midwives that all newborn males should be killed as soon as they are born. Satan has always been against the Jewish people, because the Messiah was to come through them. In Esther, we read of another Satan-inspired man Haman, who tried to destroy the entire Jewish people. But Haman did not succeed. So we see many partial fulfilments of this picture of the dragon waiting to devour the man-child. But Satan has never succeeded in destroying the Jewish people - whether through Pharaoh, or Haman, or Hitler, or through any other world-leader.

Satan knew that the Messiah would be born, because of what God had said in Eden that “the seed of the woman, will bruise the head of the serpent”. So he waited to destroy the man-child. When Jesus was born, Satan instigated Herod to send his soldiers to Bethlehem to kill all the male Jewish children under the age of two. But the baby Jesus escaped.

V.5: She gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.

Jesus is the man-child who will “rule all the nations with a rod of iron” (Rev.19:15). He is called here `a son’ and `a child’, reminding us of Isa. 9:6 where it says, “A Child will be born to us and a Son will be given to us”.

The word “rule” is translated as “shepherd” in the margin. Jesus is not going to rule the world like earthly rulers rule today. He is going to shepherd the nations. True rulership in God’s eyes is that which is done in the spirit of a shepherd who leads his sheep from the front by example. All God-appointed leaders can be identified by this mark. They will be shepherds, not bosses.

The child is caught up to GOD’S throne. This also proves that the child is Jesus Christ. In Rev. 3:21, we read that the overcomer sits with Jesus on Jesus’ throne and not on the throne of God the Father. Only Jesus Himself sits with the Father on His throne.

What is literally true of Israel is symbolically true of the church. So we could look at the woman also as a picture of the church to learn some spiritual truths from here. Gal.4:26 says, “The Jerusalem above is free and she is our mother”. Paul says in Gal. 4:19: “My children, with whom I am again in labour until Christ is formed in you”. God is looking for those who have a spirit of travail to bring forth the nature of Christ in others.

V.6: And the woman fled into the wilderness where she had a place prepared by God, so that there she might be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

This will take place during the reign of the Antichrist, after he breaks his covenant with the Jews. That will be a time of tremendous persecution. But at that time the true “Israel” will be protected and nourished by God in the wilderness for a period of 1260 days.

As it says in Jer. 30:3-7, “I heard the sound of terror.....Why do I see every man with his hands on his loins as a woman in childbirth?....Alas! for that day is great. There is none like it. It is the time of Jacob’s distress. But he will be saved from it”.

V.7: And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. And the dragon and his angels waged war.

We read in Daniel 12:1: “Now at that time Michael the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people (Israel) will arise And there will be a time of distress (the great tribulation) such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time, your people, everyone who is found written in the book will be rescued”.

And we read further, “And I heard the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, as he raised his right hand and his left toward heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time (3½ years); and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people, all the events will be completed” (Dan. 12:7).

V.8,9: And they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven, and the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old, who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

This will take place during the final 3½ -year period just before Jesus establishes His kingdom on the earth. Satan will be thrown down to the earth then. At present, Satan is in the heavenly places. Many think that Satan is in hell. But he is not there. He will be cast in the lake of fire one day. But right now, he is in the heavenly places. Today, we have to wrestle with the “evil forces of darkness in the heavenly places” (as we read in Eph. 6:12).

The Bible speaks of three heavens. The first heaven is the visible heaven of the universe and space (Psa.8:3). The third heaven, where the apostle Paul was caught up, is also called Paradise - where God’s throne is (2 Cor.12:2,4). Between the first and the third heavens must be “the second heaven”.

When we pray, we have to penetrate through this second heaven to get to the third heaven. The best way to penetrate is by praising God. The one thing that the devil cannot stand is praise to God! So, if you find it difficult to pray, stop praying, and start praising God. Get connected to the third heaven and then start praying.

The dragon and his angels were thrown down out of heaven. Jesus once said, “I beheld Satan fall from heaven like a lightning” (Lk. 10:18). Jesus saw Satan’s fall when he fell initially and became Satan. But He also foresaw Satan being cast down to earth, being locked up in the bottomless pit, and finally being cast into the lake of fire. Then Jesus told His disciples, “I give you authority to tread upon serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of Satan. Nothing shall injure you”.

When we have seen what Jesus saw, we will no longer be afraid of Satan. He is a defeated enemy, for he was defeated on the cross by our Lord. The prince of the world has been judged. It is ridiculous for a believer now to be afraid of Satan. There is no need to be afraid. Ask God to open your eyes to see the fall of Satan. Satan hates the book of Revelation because it describes his final doom.

Michael and his angels are the ones who cast Satan out. There was a time long ago when Satan, as Lucifer, was above Michael. But he lifted himself up, and he was cast down. Finally Michael is given the job of clearing the second heaven of Satan and his hosts.

Satan is called here the serpent of old and the devil. The word ‘devil’ in Greek is ‘diabolos’ from which we get the English word ‘diabolical’. But the word ‘diabolos’ in Greek actually means ‘a slanderer’ or ‘a backbiter’, and is used in 1 Tim. 3:11, where it says, “Women must not be diabolos”. What that means is that women must not be little devils, who slander others, speaking evil about them behind their backs. Of course, men should not be slanderers either. It says in 2 Tim. 3:2,3, that, “in the last days, difficult times will come, for men...will be little devils (diabolos).” It says further in Tit. 2:3, “Older women should not be diabolos.” So both men and women are warned against becoming “devils” who slander others! A slanderer gets Satan’s name, just as a Christian gets Christ’s name.

Another name for the devil is Satan which means ‘the adversary,’ the resister of God, resister of the truth, resister of God’s people.

He is also called the Deceiver, the deceiver of the whole world.

Satan will be on earth for 1260 days. He is not here yet. If things are already so bad, you can imagine what it is going to be like when Satan is thrown down to earth with his angels. It says here that he will have great wrath at that time.

V.10: And I heard a loud voice in heaven saying, ‘Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser (slanderer) of our brethren has been thrown down, who accuses them before our God day and night.’

Here Satan is called ‘the accuser of our brethren’. If anyone slanders his brothers or sisters, let him realise that he is in fellowship with Satan, the chief accuser of the brethren. Satan accuses us before God day and night saying, “See how Your child is behaving there! See how Your child is talking there!” The Devil watches our private life carefully and thereby gets plenty of material to accuse us before God.

Satan accused Job before God saying that Job served God only because God had blessed him. Satan will accuse believers like that today as well. Since God is righteous, He will not say that Satan is wrong, if He sees that you are indeed serving God with wrong motives. Jesus Christ is a “righteous Advocate” (1 Jn.2:1). He cannot cover up for us if we are wrong. That is why we must always be honest with God in judging and cleansing ourselves, because then the blood of Jesus Christ will cleanse us from all sin and there will be no more ground for Satan to accuse us before God.

V.11: And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and because they did not love their life even to death.

These are disciples of Jesus who overcame Satan. They used three weapons.

(1) The blood of Jesus Christ that cleansed them because they were walking in the light of God.

(2) The word of their testimony. They told Satan with their mouths that they had been forgiven and cleansed and that he no longer had any claim on them.

(3) They did not love their lives even unto death. They took up the cross and died to Self daily.

It was on the cross of Calvary that Jesus defeated Satan, and it is when we take our place as crucified with Christ, and die to ourselves every day, that we too can overcome Satan.

Why do we speak about taking up the cross daily? Because we want to overcome Satan daily. The day we are unwilling to die to ourselves, Satan will overcome us.

V.12: For this reason, rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea; because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time.

There are three places in the New Testament, where it speaks about heaven rejoicing.

(1) Lk. 15:7: There is joy in heaven over a sinner who repents.

(2) Rev. 12:12: There is joy in heaven when a believer overcomes.

(3) Rev. 19:7: There is joy in heaven at the marriage of the Lamb, because the bride has made herself ready.

These three occasions are actually three stages of our Christian life.

Stage 1: When we repent of our sins.

Stage 2: When we overcome Satan in our personal lives.

Stage 3: When we have made ourselves ready as a bride for the marriage of the Lamb.

Every one of us can be a source of joy to the heavenly hosts, if we are willing to go through these three stages.

Jesus has already overcome Satan. Now He gives us the privilege of executing that victory which He has already won, as it says in Rom. 16:20: “The God of peace shall crush Satan under your feet shortly”.

Satan tried to devour Christ when He was born (Rev. 12:4), but he did not succeed. In heaven he fought with Michael and his angels, but he got thrown out (v.7-9). Now he fights with us. Are we going to be defeated? No! That which Jesus accomplished on the cross, we are to execute today so that the God of peace is able to crush Satan through us in our daily life, and finally completely.

The devil is a student of prophecy and knows that he will have only 3½ years once he comes down to earth. So his wrath will be great. And it is going to be a terrible time on the earth.

V.13: And when the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child.

Immediately after Satan comes to earth, he will start persecuting the nation of Israel that gave birth to Jesus Christ.

V.14-16: And the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, in order that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. And the serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, so that he might cause her to be swept away with the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and drank up the river which the dragon poured out of his mouth.

The wings of an eagle may refer to the nation of Israel being airlifted to safety into the wilderness where God has prepared a place to protect them. The river flowing out of the serpent’s mouth refers to a flood of persecution that will seek to sweep Israel away. But there will be even more people then, than in the Second World War, to help the Jews, so that they are not swept away from the earth.

V.17: And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

The dragon was enraged with Israel because he could not harm her. So he goes out to make war with “the rest of her offspring”. That refers to wholehearted disciples of Jesus - those who obey God and are witnesses for Jesus. They are called “the woman’s offspring” because the church was born through the witness of the twelve apostles, who were all Israelites.

This proves that there will be Christians on earth at this time, who obey God and hold to the testimony of Jesus Christ. They will overcome Satan and be a powerful testimony for the Lord on earth. God is now preparing His people for that day. So let us be faithful in these days to overcome Satan completely so that he is crushed under our feet.

Jer. 12:5 says that the Lord teaches us now to run with men so that one day we can run with horses. He trains us in a time of peace so that when “the flood of Jordan” comes, we will be able to stand. We cannot be prepared overnight. It takes time. So, if we take every opportunity that comes our way now, to humble ourselves and to die to Self now, then when the flood comes (the great tribulation) we will be able to stand true to the Lord and be a testimony for Him on the earth.

J
jack2009

Amillennialism (Latin: a- "against" + millennialism) is a view in Christian end-times theology named for its rejection of the theory that Jesus Christ will have a thousand-year long, physical reign on the earth. This is in opposition to premillennial and some postmillennial views of chapter 20 of the Book of Revelation.

In contrast, the amillennial view holds that the thousand years mentioned in Revelation 20 is a symbolic number, not a literal description; that the millennium has already begun and is identical with the current church age, (or more rarely, that it ended with the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 — see Preterism). Amillennialism holds that while Christ's reign during the millennium is spiritual in nature, at the end of the church age, Christ will return in final judgment and establish permanent physical reign.

========================
[url=http://www.acai.vg]Acai Berry Juice Side Effects Signs of Autism Signs and Symptoms[/url]
[url=http://www.compressorworld.co.uk/hydrovane-air-compressors-51-c.asp]hydrovane compressor[/url]

S
sermonindex

Who has decided to spiritualize these Scriptures?

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

This discussion is archived and closed to new replies. Start a new discussion to carry the subject on.
Archived
1 of 48 posts

Everything we make is available for free because of a generous community of supporters.

Donate