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Out-of-wedlock births hit record high

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sermonindex


[b]Out-of-wedlock births hit record high[/b]


Nearly 40 percent of babies born in the United States in 2007 were delivered by unwed mothers, according to data released last month by the National Center for Health Statistics. The 1.7 million out-of-wedlock births, of 4.3 million total births, marked a more than 25 percent jump from five years before.

Statistics such as these, which include for the second year in a row a bump in teen pregnancies, after a 14-year decline, leave Sarah Brown concerned. She worries about the children born to unwed parents -- about the disadvantages they often face, including increased likelihood of poverty and greater high school dropout rates. ...

read more: www.cnn.com

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repentcanada

I can't even imagine how high the number would be with the children who are butchered in abortion

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HeartSong

I wonder what percentage are born into a godly home . . .

and then,

how many are born into the kingdom of God.

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sermonindex

the river of hypocrisy runs so deep thru this website, that if a saved sinner looking for any mercy, any blessing, would soon be swamped and drowned by it.

Which is it Greg?

We KNOW abortion is murder! We know that! Have you ever had a child of yours, true..... concieved in sin, have you ever had a child that you fathered, that was doomed to death by your girlfriend, even though you BEGGED, PLEAD, WEPT for this little life, only in the end to hear, "I'm not ready yet, its my choice, its my body"....but I would counter, "That is my child too, and I pledge my life to you and this baby, this baby is a gift from God!!"

I would beg and plead and cry, "please don't kill our baby" Of course I was a sinner, and she was a sinner who didnt know Jesus, and we both knew what we were doing making love without condoms or ANY form of birth control, but i am a man of honor, ans as such, they are father to thier precious children.

and I would HAVE to take them to this hellish abortion clinic, and know that inside, MY child was being murdered, and I would drive her home, wordless, or maybe I would be spitting out my venom as I drove her to her place. "Comfort her"? Some of you women may be thinking, what a cruel man.....for not comforting this poor woman. I didn't want to even see them again, nor touch them again, fore I wanted to DIE with OUR CHILD.

I would go to my place, lay my hands on whatever illicit and illegal drugs I could get my hands on, curl up in a ball in my bed and weep for days.

Some of you may be judging us, (which is not an unuusuual occurnce on this forum) by asking "why didnt you get married, right and decent"? Because it didnt occur to us, we were all bad kids from broken homes, divorced parents, drug abuse, etc etc.

You see, thats the trouble with many of you on this forum, you are so locked in your "holiness" and your doctrines of work related salvation, that anybody that doesnt, or hasnt fit YOUR idea of the Love and Mercy of Jesus, that would adjudge such, as the lost, as objects of scorn, you have gone so far away from the Ministry of Jesus Who saved and cleanses souls such as mine. and God willing those lovers of mine. Jesus is the Loving Father, the older brother I never had that could have said to me" Neil there's a better way, Follow me"......and finally I opend my heart to Him. Am I perfect? Lord no! Sanctfication is an ongoing process, despite what some of these harsh, works oriented preachers you have plastered all this site, might say.

how convienent it is to adopt the concept "Christian Perfectionism".


and I would think reading that article, that saints would be exulting in that NOT yet another baby murdered?

Why don't you praise God in this? Why do cast these births as something to shun, or judge? Hmm, Greg?.....or there parents. or might I add, "single mothers"? WHY DID YOU EVEN POST THIS UP?

In what way does it disturb you? Does it perchance disturb you that 72% of our out of wedlock births are African American, or 51% Latino? Not unbeliavble, considering the plethora of American American preacher sermons we have on this website.

Let me be very frank with you Greg as the Holy Spirit leds me , and in the love I can muster in this cracked clay vessel. You have been overtaken with religious pride and I see nothing of the Pure Sweet Merciful Grace and Love of the Lord Jesus Christ in your words, and your witness. You are a young man who God gifted with a powerful internet minstry and your judgements and slander, read discerment give witness to this. You probably want to make me "anonymous" now, as you have so many you dared challenge anything you post, but search your heart, Ask God the Holy Ghost if what I say is true.

You broke my heart tonight, not out of conviction, my sins are washed clean by the Blood Christ Jesus, PRAISE HIS NAME. You broke my heart because you brought back the faces of those dear dead children of mine, one would have been 29, one would have been 23, and the other would have been 20, but God is so good, he gave me a 13 year old son, who's mother I married and just spoke lovingingly with tonight.

You brought there faces back for what? to show how craven the black community is? or the latino? or to show "how better we are"? than them?

Shame on you! The LORD rebuke you. Hear me, I will give prophesy now, if you keep this up, not the ministry, but your own hidden fleshly ways, then you and this ministry will go onto the rocks of ruin and error, and woe, if you drag anyone down with you. I have much to repent for, always will, till the day I see Jesus, but brother Greg, repent.

as you will probably make me anonymous, i want everyone else here to know who wrote this: neil giuntoli

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HeartSong

Our heavenly Father looks down upon His children, and weeps. Myriads of souls are lost and headed for certain destruction. His children, dead and dying by the choices that they have made and continue to make. Many are also dying as a result of the choices of others.

Not long after the Lord got a hold of me, I was in the park, walking along the river with my old dog. It was the time of the year when the trees were dropping their seed, and there were billions, upon billions, of seeds everywhere - everywhere I looked there were more seeds. As I stood in the midst of all of these seeds, the Lord brought it upon my heart that almost all of these seeds were destined to die. Many would be mowed down, many had fallen upon rocks and would never take root, many would be poisoned, and many would simply be washed away. With horror it dawned upon me that this was also the way it was with the people of the earth - most were destined to die - eternally.

We are all murderers. Our greed has brought about the death of many people. While we might not be aware of it, that does not negate the fact that it has happened. Neil, I am sorry about the pain from your past - for the choices that you made and the death of your children. Most of us are in the same boat, but the correlation is just not as direct. However, in our own hearts we know what we have done, things that have brought about the death of another - if not physically, then certainly spiritually.

I am thinking that the enemy is working overtime in these last days. It is essential that we stay centered in our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

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MaryJane

Greetings Neil
I can see from reading your post that this article has brought back some very painful memories and I wanted you to know that I will pray for you. I feel that I must be honest with you that I don't understand your attack on Greg though? The article was about unwed moms and women choosing to have children out of wedlock on purpose. Having a baby outside of marriage is not a noble thing to do because in all honesty if your pregnant and not married then you are committing fornication and I think that was part of the reason for Greg's posting this here. The open and blatant sin against God and His design for the family is or at least should be a cause for our concern.It should offend us that the sin of fornication is looked upon as no big deal, sadly even among those who call themselves born again believers.It grieves Fathers heart terribly, it should ours as well.
Please don't misunderstand what I am saying, abortion is murder and grieves Father, but so does the sin of fornication. Sin is sin regardless. I am thankful that these woman are having their babies and not aborting them, but it does not change the fact that these women and men are sinning against God in what they are doing.
Please before you write me off as one judging others understand that I know what I am talking about. I was an unwed mother. Had my first child when I was 17 years old. Having pre marital relations is sin and is not what Father had intended for us, consequently the children that are brought into this world as a result of this selfish sinful behavior do have a more difficult time of it. I am thankful Father put people into my life that stopped me from further sinning against Him and kept me from that abortion clinic, but I will also be completely honest I was not the best parent for my daughter when she was little. I was immature, sinful, selfish, and did not understand what it really meant or took to be a good mother as clearly spoken about in the Word. I made many sinful mistakes over the years that I regret and have repented for. Did Father see us through those times, absolutely He did but it does not change the fact that it was not the best possible situation nor was it as Father would have intended for us.

Perhaps you might have asked Greg his reasons for posting before attacking him here. Isn't that how Jesus would want us to speak to one another??? Having lost a baby of my own(not through abortion) I do understand the pain and grieving that you speak about and so does our Lord, only on a much greater scale then either of us could ever imagine. As Heartsong shared we need to keep our focus on Jesus!

Please consider this in the heart it was written
MJ

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sermonindex

Lovingly, I say to you: [b]Your daughter concieved at 17 IS ALIVE! [/b]

What did David confess to in Psalm 51? Which is the "mountaintop" of penitent Psalms?

isnt that the point of abortion clinic prayer minstries and interventions? [b]To save babies?!?[/b]

and then the owner of this very forum, makes a post that becrys the sin of the rise of unwed births? Look around at the world! It's sin-sick, and most of this sin is murder, and I'm not only talking about abortion, we have a world LOCKED in war, and rape and murder, the destroyer stalks the earth bearing "weapons of mass destruction", whether they be AK-47's, or human bombs, or Predator drone's that mistake a wedding party for a terrorist gathering. I could write of sins of the flesh all day long on this forum, but thats the problem, and THAT's WHY I chose to make rebuke public.

There has been an ugly spirit festering on this forum of late, and if Greg doesn't know what I'm speaking of, he should ask the Holy Spirit. Diviseness, arguing over doctrine, fear spread like manure, slander, much of it does not give Glory to God, nor reflect the Ministry of Jesus Christ and Him Crucified.

Do you want a prayer point? In that article, Greg posted, 72% of unwed births were to African-American women. Now, some would say this is because the "state" subsidizes these births, and I say, "get me behind me satan!". The devil is cunning in his deception, because we seem to forget the SINS of our forefathers, who STOLE Africans, whole families, brought them to these shores as slaves, and then callously and sinFULLY sold apart FAMILIES, and the virus of this sin, continues to this very day, as this nation has not had the Grace, or the courage to repent of this foul sin to this day. I'm a patriot, but I know our forefathers were utterly remiss, when they crafted the Constitution, proclaiming ALL men free, that they did not make slavery illegal in 1776, when they all signed that Declaration of Independence, or crafted a Constitution.

It is all hypocrisy of the lowest and most base form to ignore this present day reality, and then to becry the birth of children who's mother is not wed. Praise God these children weren't murdered! Praise God!...and woe to all of you who judge these mothers! WOE TO YOU! May God deal with anybody ever so harshly for this hypocritical judgement!

I had to walk THREE times thru prayer lines of well meaning Christians outside these hellish murder factories, my own heart in tatters, shredded, I wanted to shriek at them, "what do you think I've been doing for the last two weeks?!? I've been begging this woman NOT TO KILL OUR BABY!!"....and you should have heard them, with their shouts of "baby killers", only the sanction of law stayed my hand those three awful days, as I did not YET know the Prince of Peace, Jesus.

Greg should pray before he posts sometimes, we all should. I did, and you are reading my hearts testimony. If he wants to ban me, so be it, but he has stumbled a brother in the Lord.

in the event I AM banned, and made "anonymous" I will AGAIN sign my name to this post, neil giuntoli, a sinner washed in the Blood of Christ.

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MaryJane

Greetings Brother Neil

Your wrote: Lovingly, I say to you: Your daughter concieved at 17 IS ALIVE!
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All I can say to you dear brother is yes by the grace and mercy of God my daughter is alive, if it was not for Him I would have aborted her, but dear brother that does not make her conception any less sinful. I was guilty of the sin of fornication, that sin crucified my beloved Savior. It nailed Him to that tree! I know that I am forgiven but still it grieves my heart that I did those things. I love my daughter and am thankful she is with me but it does not change the fact that what "I" and my husband(before we were married) did was sin when she was conceived and to me that was I felt the reason Greg posted this article. So many look the other way when it comes to sin, we act as if it really does not matter. We are called to love each other but not to ignore the sin that is killing them, the sin that is causing so many to spend their eternity in hell. You are right that the world is full of sin, and fornication is one of them. It grieves our heavenly Fathers heart and it should do so to ours as well.

As for judging unwed mothers, I do not, the Word of God does. IT says having a relations outside of marriage is sin, I am not saying that the child is sin, but the fornication and conception of that child is sin. The article is not talking about women who are repenting for their sinful behavior brother it is talking about women who are choosing to have babies outside of Gods will and in rebellion to Him. I will grant it that most if not all are lost and walking in rebellion to Him daily anyway but still fornication is sin. If we can see that and be unwilling to call it that then how can we be the light to the world that Jesus called us to be. Sin is sin and it kills! I am thankful that these women are not further sinning by taking the life of their unborn children but that does not change what is going on here. If we really love the lost then we will share the truth with them honestly and in love.

Brother I will pray for you, it is clear you are hurting. These memories can be and are painful, I know from my own experiences. Even as I write this my own heart is aching, but I have to say I still think that you should speak with Greg about these things personally and allow him as a brother in Christ to share his heart. I will continue to pray for you brother...

God Bless you
Maryjane

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sermonindex

God bless you beloved sister, but we're just talking past one another right now.

you wrote:

Brother I will pray for you, it is clear you are hurting.

Maryjane, I bless any prayers I can illicit from any other saved sinner, but I feel you havent grasped why I am hurting.

I'm hurting because of the hypocrisy of many followers of Jesus in this nation, this issue just one example, there are too many to outline, just suffice to say, this whole dialogue reminds me so much of the adulterous woman brought before Jesus to be stoned. There is no wonder that there is nothing that would make the lost envious of so great a salvation in the way we walk out our Faith in America...nothing.

We bemoan the murdering of the unborn, yet call lost and confused people, "fornicators", who bravely refuse to take the life of their child.

Thats what hurts. As far as my three little babies, Maryjane, I will hug them someday. In the meanwhile, I got a 13 year old, saved and sanctified son, who needs some loving from his daddy.

I'm going to bow out of this conversation now.

In Jesus' love, neil giuntoli

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MaryJane

Brother
I do understand what you shared about the hypocrisy of many followers, sadly that is another sin that we as the church ignore. Why is that we are to afraid to stand on the truth and love with one another to encourage and admonish each other daily to walk in Him. Are we not instructed to do so??(Just my thought here)

I guess I think you are missing my point as well brother, you wrote:We bemoan the murdering of the unborn, yet call lost and confused people, "fornicators", who bravely refuse to take the life of their child.
____________

See this was my point about the article, these are not lost or confused people in their minds.They openly reject God and His plan for their lives. They do not see their actions as sinful because no one call fornication sin. The women in this article willing conceive their children, some do not even want a father in the picture at all. This brother is fornication no matter what we feel about it. The Bible is the last and final word on this as it should be.

I am thankful for your son and that Father has brought him into your life. I understand what you have shared about one day being able to hug your three other children. I to look forward to the day that I will see the baby I lost. We both can take comfort that they are all in Father care!

I do respect your heart about bowing out of the conversation , and wish you all Fathers blessing brother. Please know my intention and heart was not to cause you stumble any further but to come up along side you in hope that we two might know Fathers heart for us all here on SI. May we all continue to seek Him first and keep our eyes on Him daily as we walk out our time here. May Jesus name be lifted up and glorified!

God Bless you brother and your family
Maryjane

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sermonindex

[url=http://nytimes.com/packages/html/nyregion/1-in-8-million/index.html?hp&hp#/elizabeth_cousins]Elisabeth Cousins and her baby [/url]

See this was my point about the article, these are not lost or confused people in their minds.They openly reject God and His plan for their lives. They do not see their actions as sinful because no one call fornication sin. The women in this article willing conceive their children, some do not even want a father in the picture at all. This brother is fornication no matter what we feel about it. The Bible is the last and final word on this as it should be

So you, Maryjane, can "read" this young woman's mind, or know every corridor of her heart? Or know God's plan for her life?

Amen to Holy Scripture being the Word of God, but when I think of God's Mercy and God's love, and when God looks down on these two little ones, I doubt that he dismisses them with the prejorative you use, "fornicator". I believe He pines for their hearts, may it be so, amen.

72% of all unwed births are African-American, ask yourself why that is? No sin happens in a vacumn, this world is an evil place with evil men who love to steal, and at one time, they stole people, and rent families asunder, and what you see, is the fruit of that. You want to talk about REPENT AMERICA, let's start with our foundations, lets talk about slavery, people theifs. These "old path" preachers pratically worshipped on this forum, where did THEY stand on the issue of slavery in America?....or heaven forbid, dare I bring up the issue of race today in America, and the reminder that the most segregated hour of the week in America is 11 AM on Sunday.

Forgive me for going back on my "final word", you can have it.

In Jesus' love, neil giuntoli

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MaryJane

Greetings brother Neil

I want you to know that my previous post was not meant in any way to challenge you or cause you to stumble in coming back and posting further against your word. At this time I do humbly ask you though please do not put words into my mouth, I did not say or imply that God dismisses these women in the article that Greg posted. (and I was commenting only on the article that Greg posted) Of course His love and mercy covers a multitude of sins, including fornication. Amen with out that love and mercy I would still be lost. I was once in the same position as many of these women are today, I was guilty of the sin of fornication and living in rebellion to Him. I know what it means to be forgiven as I know you do. But honestly I don't understand what your trying to say, simple question... isn't having relations outside of marriage fornication? Is that not called sin in the Word of God. If we do not share with the lost that they are indeed sinners how will they ever feel or see their need for a Savior? All I can say to you brother is from my heart, I am so thankful for the few people that Father put in my life that spoke to me honestly about the sin I was living in. I am thankful that they were willing to risk all in order to share with me so that I too might know His truth and repent.

As for Sunday morning being a time of segregation I will have to take your word on that I do not attend the structure services and have not for the past 10 years. I also do not know how each of the old path preacher on the forum looked upon slavery since I have not read each one of the articles nor did I live when they did to know them personally or their hearts on the subject. I do however seek to live my life daily in Him and to walk in submission to His will as I know many others do to. I do my best to look at people as people... those who wear the name of Jesus and walk in His way(according to scripture) I gladly call brother and sisters and those that do not I pray one day will be brother and sister. I want to be careful of my words I choose here and not get caught up in debating with you, that was not the intent of my original post to you. I will be praying and seeking Father if there is anything in my heart that is not of Him then I know He is faithful and will show me. In all things I only wish to see Him glorified and His name lifted up.

I pray you have a blessed day in Him Neil, if I do not hear from you further I understand you are seeking to follow what Father is showing you in all of this as well.

God Bless you brother
MJ

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BroRed

With all due compassion... I think that you have missed the point of our host. The issues of out-of-wedlock births and the horror of abortion are not, in this case, tied together. Greg has put before us the singular issue of child birth outside of God's perfiect plan. This in and of its self is the focus of our moderator. I am sure that he understands the hurt, the pain and the struggles, that every person involved in abortion deals with.

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ginnyrose

Neil,

I would like to respond to your 'concern', if I may call it that. What I have to say may have been said by others - I do not at the moment have time to read all the responses.

As the father of several aborted children, you are experiencing intense grief for past sins - sins confessed and repented of, I am sure. To be reminded again of it angers you...you are having a hard time forgiving yourself. And that is one of the reasons why abortion is a tragedy to both parents: not only is a life taken but there is the aftermath of grief that 'kills' the parents. This is called the Post-Abortion-Syndrome.

Neil, the reason the rate of illegitimacy is so startling is because Scripture teaches us that immorality - "Let it not be named once among you", Ephesians 5:3 - is sin. And unfortunately, this trend is common in popular churches. When this is the case it is quite revealing that these churches are not peopled with saints but unrepentant sinners. I have talked with hundreds of females who profess to be Christians who experience little guilt for fornication/adultery. That is why this rate gives saints a reason for concern. The ironical thing is that while the rate for blacks is so high, they are also the most religious in our part of the country. (There is an African-American lady who comes to our store and we talk seriously about Scripture. Yesterday she was lamenting the ignorance of Scripture among her own people, and the I-do-not-care-mentality...)

I hope you will rethink the concern people express about the illegitimacy rate. May I suggest you get involved in abortion recovery group for fathers? Some have gone on to fight this evil...

Neil, a mark of repentance/forgiveness is the ability to speak out against sins you have committed. So, I have sinned, too. Should I now be silent about identifying these sins because I have been guilty of them? If anything, it should make one be more aggressive about warning others about the deceitfulness of sin. What do you think?

God bless you, Neil. I believe you when you inform us of the pain you feel when you recall...But God, through the work of the Holy Spirit can heal your soul of that pain. Go for it!

Blessings,
ginnyrose

EDIT: May I suggest you read the book "The Hand of God" by Bernard Nathanson. Dr. Nathanson was in the forefront of the move to legalize abortion in the USA and personally aborted his own...If I recall, he was responsible for aborting 55,000. Imagine the agony of this man's soul...

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sermonindex

Sister, may God bless you too, you cant hear my voice, but it is gentle. I want to give your post its due in response, but I have such housework right now, that if I respond, I will not attend to my responsibilities, and I didnt want you to think for a second that I was ignoring you, or God forbid, stewing. Allow me, a day or two to address, every issue you brought up.

Gracefully, neil

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ginnyrose

Neil,

I rereading my post I think I came across as being quite blunt. I hope you do not take it to mean I am hard? My heart goes out to people who suffer from PAS. I have heard these ladies share their pain (the ones who have aborted their children) and it is so deep it will even cause others to tear up. But these ladies are so aggressive in fighting abortion they get very impatient when they find someone who is contemplating the procedure and they grieve deeply, more so then I ever could.

You may also be interested to know that Dr. Nathanson was by birth and heritage a Jew. He has repented of his contribution to the abortion industry but had a problem of forgiving himself. He ended up joining the Catholic church because there was a priest who reached out to him. In any case, his story is well worth reading. The book can be purchased from Amazon.

Blessings,
ginnyrose

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ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Neil...

It is possible to realize that premarital sex AND abortion are wrong.

We should definitely reach out with the love of God to those who commit such sins, but we cannot candy coat the sin for the sake of the sinner's desire to not feel "judged." The "Good News" can only be fully understood and accepted when people realize the "bad news" -- that sin seperates people from God. Yet the love that we express to "sinners" has to be real -- and it has to be mingled with the message that we are all guilty of sin. The good news is that we won't stand with the accused if we come to Christ and forsake those things out of love for Him.

Anyway, I don't mean to "jump in" to this conversation uninvited, but I just wanted to interject that we can preach that BOTH things are sinful in a manner that is not self-righteous. Premarital sex is a sin at the same time that abortion is the purposeful murder of an unborn baby. Yet the Blood of Christ Jesus is powerful enough to reach both.

BTW, I don't think that Greg meant anything by this article other than a presentation of just what the times we live in look like. Forty years ago, unwed mothers constituted a small proportion of the population. Today, it is almost "normal" -- and even homosexuals want to indulge in their sin and still raise children as "their own."

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MaryJane

Greetings Ginnyrose

I just wanted to say thank you.You shared: I have heard these ladies share their pain (the ones who have aborted their children) and it is so deep it will even cause others to tear up. But these ladies are so aggressive in fighting abortion they get very impatient when they find someone who is contemplating the procedure and they grieve deeply, more so then I ever could

____________________

I just wanted to say that it was a young nurse who had gone through her own abortion years before that had openly and honestly shared with me. I will never forget the pain in her voice or the sadness in her eyes when she talked about the baby that she aborted. To this day I am so thankful that this lady had the courage to share truth with me, she could have lost her job for doing what she did. Reading over what you shared just really gave me pause, how close I came to walking that path that day and aborting my daughter. I am so thankful to the Lord for sending faithful servants into my life to share His truth with me so that I might repent and be saved.

Neil: I just wanted to say dear brother that you have been much on my heart and I am praying for you.


God Bless
Maryjane

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ginnyrose

I will never forget the pain in her voice or the sadness in her eyes when she talked about the baby that she aborted.

This is normal...And bless her heart for sharing with you, MaryJane.

These victims make very good counselors at CPCs. You may be surprised how many counselors/directors of CPCs have had abortions. I would encourage anyone who has had one or any father who had a child aborted who still suffers intense guilt to seek out a crises pregnancy center to see if they offer a support group for you. If they don't they should be able to refer you to a group that can render assistance. They exist to help hurting people. And do not be afraid of them. They have heard of every sin under the sun and nothing will shock a CPC worker. They are there to help people.

Blessings,
ginnyrose

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sermonindex

If two persons are living together and they are not married according the rituals of marriage and/or justice of the peace, and they have children, raise them, are you telling me that these kids are born out of wedlock?

Depends on how you view marriage. If a man and a woman (got to be specific these days) are married under the contract of common law, and they have babies and raise them, that is not out of wedlock. They are married, just not according to the standards of the world and the Church. But according to God they are. God honours that union as long as they stay together, just like those that have gone through the ceremony of vows of weights that no man keep anyway.

The Church errs greatly concerning this and has put millions under condemnation. Paul was very clear when he said that if you have sex with a harlot, you've become one flesh with her. One flesh is marriage. Because he went on in the next verse giving the same idea when we come in union with Jesus we are one spirit. 1 Corinthians 6:15 16 17

I can see all you legalist digging out your Greek lexicons and Matthew Henry's.

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InTheLight

The Bible doesn't say a whole lot about marriage customs but it does say plenty about the nature of marriage being between one man and one woman for life. It also is clear that the Bible deals with marriage as a covenant and much is said about covenants and vows.

We know that the Bible condemns fornication and adultery as sin. So, how do we determine if a man and a woman are together in fornication/adultery or if they are together acceptably in covenant relationship? What is the valid criteria?

To simply say they are committed to one another does not seem to be valid criteria. It seems the only way to determine if the union is sin or not is to ask, "are they married?" And they only way to determine if they are truly married is to determine if they made vows?, were there witnesses? Is there a record?

In Christ,

Ron

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ccchhhrrriiisss

Hello DeepThinker...

If two persons are living together and they are not married according the rituals of marriage and/or justice of the peace, and they have children, raise them, are you telling me that these kids are born out of wedlock?

Depends on how you view marriage. If a man and a woman (got to be specific these days) are married under the contract of common law, and they have babies and raise them, that is not out of wedlock. They are married, just not according to the standards of the world and the Church. But according to God they are. God honours that union as long as they stay together, just like those that have gone through the ceremony of vows of weights that no man keep anyway.

You might want to consider just what a "marriage" is in the first place. It isn't an agreement to live together. It is a binding covenant between a man and a woman in the sight of God. A "common law marriage" is a state recognized "marriage" typically without a ceremony and where no CONTRACT was ever established.

Of course, most states do not recognize a common law "marriage" as anything other than a couple who happened to live together for a long time. It is only a legal argument in 11 states (where it must now have a contract to be considered "valid") and does not legally exist in the other 39 states. In addition, I don't know if any sort of "common law marriage" even exists in Scripture.

By your definition (or, at least, what I [i]perceive[/i] to be your definition), a marriage could exist by a simple agreement. Please correct me if I am wrong. What do you think makes a marriage valid? I understand the history of marriage (studied this myself) and how "secret" marriages existed during Church history. Yet these were usually performed by a minister or at least with a covenant ceremony.

I can see all you legalist digging out your Greek lexicons and Matthew Henry's.
Why would you say this, brother?

G
ginnyrose

Deepthinker,

I have talked with many who were shacking and not one of them considers themselves to be married in any sense of the word. They simply do not want to make any commitment to another person and, yes, they know they are living in sin - and will even tell you so.

ginnyrose

L
Lordoitagain

Greg,

Thanks SO MUCH for posting this. Last Sunday, we were singing the chorus:

“Soften my heart, Lord,
Soften my heart.
From all indifference
Set me apart.
To feel Your compassion,
To weep with Your tears,
Come soften my heart, Oh Lord,
Soften my heart.”

The Spanish translation that we sing says: “Quebrantame” in the places that have “Soften my heart”. “Quebranteme” means “break me”. In the middle of the chorus, one of the Hispanic ladies started crying out to God: “Dejame llorar como Tu” (Let me weep as You). I was at the keyboard. I stopped playing, and we all knelt down and started crying out to God for Him to break our hearts and cause us to weep as He weeps.

After reading this post, I brought the alarming news to our prayer meeting Saturday night that 40% of all children are born to unwed mothers in the USA. We spent some time crying out to God to have mercy on this country . . . that one more time, true conviction of sin would grip the hearts of sinners, so that they could truly repent.

A couple of years ago, I was at a rummage sale, and bought a book copyrighted in 1894 by Edward T. Hiscox called The New Directory for Baptist Churches. There is a section in the book about prayer meetings. One part describes the different types of prayer meetings. Here is what was written about “The temperance prayer-meeting.”:

“The temperance prayer-meeting. This is not so generally observed as it should be. For if there be anything that appeals to Christian faith, and which should lead Christian people to appeal to God, the righteous judge, for help, it is this cause, --that the gigantic iniquity of the saloon, and the drink habit, which cause more suffering than war, pestilence and famine combined, may be checked and destroyed. With churches so apathetic, and good people on every hand so indifferent, the rum power rides riot over all that is fairest and best in society, destroying homes, impoverishing nations, and invading the sacred altars of our holy religion. Appeals need to be made to Him who is able to hear and save, for who else can avail?”

When I read that, my heart was smitten. In 1894, the Baptists, (and most Christians of that time) were so extremely bothered about such things that they called special prayer meetings to specifically appeal to God that such destructive sins would not spread. What smote my heart was that they spoke against the apathy and indifference of their churches with moral problems that were tiny in comparison to what we have today.

Am I SO hard hearted that the fact that 40% of children are born to unwed mothers cannot make me moan and groan and weep and howl before God? I would imagine that if in 1894, the newspapers had reported that the percentage of children born to unwed mothers had gone from 0.5% to 0.8%, the churches would have packed with saints crying out to God to save their fallen country.

“Soften my heart, Lord,
Soften my heart.
From all indifference
Set me apart.
To feel Your compassion,
To weep with Your tears,
Come soften my heart, Oh Lord,
Soften my heart.”

F
fuehrerbe21

I can see all you legalist digging out your Greek lexicons and Matthew Henry's.


Why would you say this, brother?

Agreed.

M
murrcolr

Are we as a church ready to recieve this generation, that lives on the planet today.

Are we ready to help the single parent raise there children, are we ready to show compassion to them who have aborted a baby.

I ask should christians stand outside abortion clinics and call people murders when scripture states Matthew 5:21-22 that any who gets angry is in danger of the same judgement as a murderer.

Let me ask you any one of you reading this thread do you get angry. You'll answer yes if your honest. Then you are in as must danger of judgement as the murderer.

I have been a christian know for nearly 20 years and I thought I had it all together, but as God is going deeper in my life I find that sin still holds onto me.

I desire to be Holy, but find I am a sinner in heart. Lets look at anger.

Col 3:8-9 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds.

Anger is stated as being a characteristic of the old man. Know there is a big difference between supressing anger and being free from anger.

Know if get angry and supress it your are just as liable to be judged as someone who murders and in Gods eyes you are a murderer.

We should not dare look at single parents or somone who has had an abortion and think we are better than them.

We as Christian need to get on our knees and let God do the work of sanctification in our lives where he makes our hearts pure.

One of the main reason for the people of our nations being so involved in sin is because the church is powerless because christians today have a form of godliness but deny the power. 2Tim 3:8 What does this mean a form of Godliness by deny the power.

They deny the power that God cannot only forgive them of there sin but that God can remove the sinful nature from us so we can be rid of anger, malice etc, etc.

You can say I am forgiven but let me ask you can God remove the sinful nature from you or do you deny it. If you don't deny it then why has he not done it for you. Why are you still a sinner by nature.

Thats the problem Carnal Christianity is the scourge of this generation, not the murders or single parents. Once this is dealt with (Carnal Christianity) then the people of your nation will change.

God will hold us accountable for the sin of this generation if we live as weak carnal christians and deny the power that can completly purify our hearts and be rid of the sinful nature that lives in us even though we have been forgiven.

So please lets us look at our own lives before we look at others and let God do the work of purification in us. Then and only then will we be able to teach transgressors Gods ways and convert sinners unto him.
Pslam 51:10-13

R
rreighe

i am sorry for this message. i will leave it so that you know what i am sorry for. i will not post if i don't know what i am talking about. i shouldn't have done this. it was a mistake on my part. the next time i will post, i will at least read all of the other posts. because i didn't realize that this is just like a conversation in a circle of friends and i did what would be the equivelent of ignoring everyone then coming in at the last minuet and saying what i thought.

here is the origonal post.... if you think i should just get rid of it then please tell me. but i am truely sorry. i will admit that i don't know scripture at all enough to the level that i would hope to.



[u][i][b]my old post[/b][/i][/u]


I will tell you right now i only read the first 2 or 3 replys.

I have been thinking alot about this post lately. and i think that by now we, most of us have gotten the point that the rates of society are changing rapidly. and i feel that unless it refers to anything directly concerning the build-up of, or the fuffilment of any prophecys, and the news is bad then why post it? we know the world is going down, that is obvious and we cannot deny it. i'm not saying to share a feel good only message; that would be absurd and stupid to do that. i am just saying if it really really isn't needed then why post it? we already know the imorality rates and the other prophecys concerning society are all ready at thier peaks so far (i know the peak isn't at its apex yet) so why stay on that? if we, any of us, were to keep on posting every bad news article about how soceity has gone to the slums we would be needing a whole new forum for that. i say that if it is really really needed then yes, post it, but if it is not then why?

L
Lordoitagain

unless it refers to anything directly concerning the build-up of, or the fuffilment of any prophecys, and the news is bad then why post it?

Hebrews 10:24  And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:


WHEN WE PRAY, we move the hand that moves the world! When praying people hear bad news of moral decline, it provokes them to pray.

We will not know until we get to heaven, but THERE IS NOT TELLING how many poor enslaved souls caught up in the slavery of fornication (as our dear sister Mary Jane was) have been brought to the place of seeing the horribleness of their sin (it cost God His only Son) and TRULY repenting. How many captive souls were set free because Greg cared enough to post the article on a forum that praying Christians look at.

NEVER underestimate the power of praying Christians!!!! NEVER!!!!

2 Corinthians 10:4  (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
5  Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

Strong holds that keep fornicators enslaved are TORN DOWN when the saints use their weapons!!!

EVERY ONE of our prayers are so important to God that he stores them in special vials near His throne: Rev 5:8 Rev 8:3-4

Jude 1:23  And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Let's pull as many as we can out of the fires of lust by mountain moving prayer!!!

We may not get any statistical reports from the news media about the conviction and conversion of fornicators, but on awards day in heaven, we will find out how many souls were rescued by our prayers!

Mark 11:23  For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.

S
sermonindex

Thank you for your posts Lordoitagain.

Before I read your second post, I felt to open up to Jude and read that whole chapter. Glad I did.
Many of us wish we grew up in a two parent home and I would love to tell these single folks how difficult it is to live without a Dad or a Mom. If I could just tell them my own story - I think it would make them think twice and show them what their children will be more inclined to do as adults themselves, because of what they've seen their parents do - and then their children's children - unless someone reaches out to them and breaks this generational tendency.
There are many good books out there about the affects on children who grow up without one or the other parent and how many children don't feel deserving enough to have a "Family name".

Amen - cry out for the children!

G
ginnyrose

If I could just tell them my own story

Go ahead and tell us! You never know who might benefit.

Blessings,
ginnyrose

G
Greenlea

Bro Neil I read your post and I have to admit that as a black woman I had an initial knee jerk reaction when I first saw this post to just say "Okay, here they go again picking on the black unwed mothers". Because I knew without even reading the post (I still have not read it) what it would basically say. Birth rates among blacks are .... % and among Hispanics are ....%. Same old thing. Been there done that got the t-shirt.

But I think I do understand Bro Greg's posting because sadly but true, too many women among the African American/Hispanic community settle for less than the best. And I am not talking about those who do not name the name of Christ, but those who do. However this is not just an African American/Hispanic problem, it is a "we are all sinful people in need of a savior" problem.

In the black community slavery is not the cause, sin is. As it is in every community. Pure and simple. I speak this from experience. I am a great-great-granddaughter of a slave. I was raise up in a godly home were we went to church every Sunday, (and every chance my mom found) yet at the first chance that she got, my baby sister went out and had a baby without being married. Why? Because she said she wanted someone to love her. Not that she didn't have a mother, father, three sisters and three brothers who loved her. That was not good enough and was really only an excuse to live what was really in her heart. My mother, sister and I ended up raising that little boy for most of his life.

That was twelve years ago. Well guess what? Six years later she did it again because she told the "Lord" that she wanted a little girl. She had her. And she is still unmarried.

My husband and I ended up raising her daughter for two years while my sister was in Dallas trying to get her life together. All the while she was professing salvation, going to church and proporting to "hear from the Lord"

Where is the dad? Sight unseen. No child support, no anything.

She didn't do this because of a history of slavery and what slavery did to the black family, but because she choose to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season.

Children born out of wedlock can have it hard, especially when one of the parents is out of the picture. Children of divorce can have it hard also and in some ways they are in similar situations. Believe me I seen them both in my family.

But, at least those children are alive. I think that is your point. And I concur. But sin is still sin, no matter how you slice it. It reeks.

So do I get upset when people harp on these kind of things? Sure I do. But hey, I harp too.

In the end all the talking in the world won't change a thing. Only a loving Father can do that. Aren't you glad he did? I am.

So the unwed mother, single mothers and fathers, and those who in ignorance aborted their tapestry before it was complete. I will embrace them, love them and plant seeds of Christ in them. And maybe.... just maybe you will meet one of them and be able to pour God's living water upon them.

Because only Father can give the increase. As you said, we are all cracked pots, waiting for Father to put us together.

In case you have fallen by the wayside of life; dreams and visions shattered, You're all broken inside. You don't have to stay in the shape that you're in; the potter wants to put you back together again.

In Christ,

C
Compton

Greanlea, thank you for your comments. There is objectivity, warmth, and humble dependency on the grace of God in what you said.

MC

W
White_Stone

Dear Greenlea,

Praise Jesus for your Faith and witness. Please stay around and become a regular here. We need your voice in our choir.

white stone

M
MaryJane

Greetings Greenlea

I very much appreciate what you shared here. Especially this part:However this is not just an African American/Hispanic problem, it is a "we are all sinful people in need of a savior" problem.

____________

Thank you for sharing. I agree completely.

God Bless
maryjane

S
sermonindex

Good post Greenlea!
________________________

About the article -

It's not that these media statistic folks care about children in single family homes or morality - as we all know, that's not even on their radar. They daily do artificial insemination on single women. I've heard programs on the radio where they praised these women - even making Stars out of some. They just use these statistical reports to encourage abortion and increase racial prejudice - period.

Our anger can get misplaced with these type reports, when it's these 'social engineers' and the 'reasoning' behind these reports that our eyes should be focused on. These are the same people who put out TV programs and movies of teens having sex for how many years and teaching sex ed to elementary school students for over a decade now - exposing young minds to things that they are no way ready for.
The MEDIA is the message - as was the title of one book.
The media has destroyed an entire generation - through music, TV and movies and 'education'.
And now - unsupervised internet even at the Libraries and the mocking of the abstinance message.

Why would they hate homeschooling Christians so much, if they're worried about teen pregnancies?

Look at all the welfare, medicaid, justice system and education costs these homeschooling Christian parents are saving the gov.

Pretty obvious that these statistics are geered toward promoting Planned Parenthood only and definitely not for us, the moral minority.

W
White_Stone

Your phrasing makes the problem very clear. The Media is just another tool in the bag of tricks of those who are trying to 'shape' the youth of this world. Public Education is another. Public Health Care will make it a triple threat. Genetic engineering is on the drawing board, wait and see.

Our prayers are needed.

white stone

S
sermonindex

Lea,
I've been praying and mediatating on what to post to you for a spell here now. I'm learning thru the Ministry of the Holy Ghost when to hold my tongue (read keyboard) and when to write. You said:

But, at least those children are alive. I think that is your point. And I concur

That was exactly the onus of my post.

Now as the brother of a bi-racial sister, born out of wedlock, as the result of an adulterous affair my mother had, I thank God and praise Jesus this blessed birth of my loved sister happened PRE "Roe v. Wade", because God love her, I know my mother, and my fear, given the enormous pressure of an interracial relationship in 1964, would have probably led her to abort, a woman, who now teaches public school, and has been for 17 years, and my sister and I both agree that if she changes just ONE child's life per year, she's a heroine. (there might be some here who say that public school is "evil", well, I wont spend bandwidth countering that)

So that was the point of my post, these children ARE ALIVE!!! There is so much sin afloat in this cruel and wicked world, one could spend all the day, "exposing" and speaking out against all the sin that abounds, and I say, people, check your own hearts.

That said, as the Lord leads me, there is an [b]implication[/b]inherent within the publishing of this article, ie the 72% figure, and it's an implication I don't like.

Now, as a young Jewish boy, who was studying at the synagogue with a half-black sister, don't think for an instant that the denomic sin of race hatred is reserved exclusively for white Gentiles...oh no, my baby sister had no fun at synagogue, nor at the Jewish summer day camps we were both forced to attend, where she was the only person of color. I said that to say this:

during a period of my life, when my mother was flirting with the African-American experience in America, she used to take us to "black" churches. I THINK they were either baptist or AME's, but I used to have the grandest time!!! I didnt know Jesus, but I used to love to see these big women, and I mean BIG, get filled with the Holy Spirit and go running up and down the aisles, praising the LORD in KNOWN tongues. (thats for all you anti-Pentecostals on this site) It just blew my 10 year old mind! They didnt do THAT in synagogue, I loved it, coz there was something so genuine and so REAL about their Faith and their love for Jesus! Even as a 10 year old, my spirit could discern this and I buried it up in my heart...and when the pastor spoke, My Lord!!....wow! Praise God, denoms fled that Church. If I would had my way, I would have gone to synagogue on saturday as I did, and that church on Sunday, but I guess my mother tired of her "hobby".

When the Holy Spirit rang my bell in May 2002, I was led to an Assemblies of God church, and a wonderful pastor, who has become my mentor and my best friend.("are you a Pentecostal, neil?"...I'm a Jew who follows Jesus, for those who make idols of labeling folks) At first the temple was mostly white, but Praise God, we got a real rainbow of ethnicities at that humble church, I was praying for that.

am I off topic?, yes and no, but I'm writing as the Lord leads. I was watching the PBS series "Carrier" (my son just got accepted at one the premier military academies, on his way to his dream of attending Annapolis and becoming a Naval Aviator) and they had one episode on faith aboard the USS Nimitiz, and I noticed something very disturbing, they have one service led by a layperson, who termed it a "modern praise and worship" service, which was attended by mostly white sailors, with a smattering of latinos, singing "Here I am to Worship" ( a song I love) but then they later had a "Pentecostal" service and it was 99% black sailors. Now when I was in the Navy, I didnt know Jesus, but if I was aboard the Nimitz, I'd rather be at the pentecostal service. why? because its all black and i'm making a "statement" as some all too earnest white "liberal"? no. Because during that service, I saw followers of Jesus face down on that deck, prone, either worshipping the Risen Lord, or dying to self, or all of the above. There were hands being laid on people, who's faces were wet with tears, Praise God!! Thats my kind of Church, as I have frequently been laid out on my face during service,(in the back between the seats, so as not make undue disruption) frequently been led to tears of joy, repentance, Heavenly burdens on me.

That leads me to write this, when I visit African-American churches today, I notice one thing, the majority of attendee's are women. I don't know what that means in the Economy of God, but it leads me back to my original premise that the foul denomic foundational national sin of slavery might have something to play in it all, because WE as a nation, have NEVER repented corporately of such sin.

Furthermore, I'm not making excuses for the sin of "fornication", or for the young African-American male, but the reality is this, A. young black men are not made to feel valued in this society, and a majority are raised by single mothers. Now, if a young man does NOT have a father in his life, he WILL seek out male role models, and in the inner city, there are only two, the pastor, or the street gang. The street gang holds a lot of allure, money, drugs, a sense of "family", denomic as that "family" may be, it's THERE for them...and once this street gang gets its claws into a young man's heart, his soul, there are only two ways out, death or jail, and this goes right back 200 plus years to when Africans were sold apart, families torn apart, and many times, children (if they were lucky) went with the mother, and a man, stripped of his family, stripped of his pride, his value, his worth, as a child of God, that heart grows dim, and like a generational virus, we are still healing, but we deal with it by jailing these young men. Oh, indeed, some need to be jailed, murderers or rapists, whatever, but how many lanquish in jails for the crime of drug dealing? What happened to the "visit prisoners" part in the Bible? (I'm speaking to myself now)

There are so many sins we leave unspoken, especially the national variety, we'll speak really loud about homosexual marriage, about abortion, amen, but we won't talk about an empire gone mad and killing hundreds of thousands of souls all over the world, post 1947, Vietnam and Iraq come to mind, we won't even speak of the national unrepented sin of slavery and the fact that we had to fight a nasty stinking civil war to rid this nation of that henious crime against God.

Many white southerners today will say, "no, the civil war wasn't about slavery, it was about states rights". Okay, good enough, I'll give you that, but you hear me, the "state's rights" you speak of, were your states percieved "RIGHT" to be people thief's and man stealers, which not only is sin, but is against the Constitution, and no state has the right to go against the Constitution, and those who do, and did, secceeded from the United States of America, that had been bought and paid for by the blood of patriots, hence this rebellion against the US was dealt with, and the slaves were freed, Thank God, but I have never seen any evidence of national repentance to this very day.

I've been studying the lives of abolitionists, not the well known historical figures, deeper, and I can tell you this with all veracity, 99.5% were on fire, Bible believeing followers of Jesus. It was Reverend John Rankin in his book, "Letters on American Slavery" who fired the first salvo in the information war in 1832, which were a collection of loving letters to his brother who had bought a couple slaves, outlining in systematic theology WHY his actions were sinful and a reproach to Christ, and Praise God, his brother repented, gave his slaves freedom and joined with his brother in Ripley Ohio. People convinced Rankin to bind these letters into a book, and from reading that book, "anti-slavery socities" were formed and these formed the basis for the loosely organized "underground railroad". Rev Rankin and his sons, rescued 2,000 slaves and Rev Rankin ahd a $3,000 bounty on his head, but the Rankins were never violent and endured much persecution, much of that coming from other "christians". People remember John Brown, who was violent and a failure to boot, not John Rankin.

My leading has always been this, you have the Assemblies of God, primarily white, and its splinter Pentocostal church, the Church of God in Christ, primarily black. I asked my mentor one time, actually two times, why dont we call all the COGIC pastors in our presbytery, call all the AoG pastors in the same presbytery, and sit down, break bread and forward this suggestion, a COGIC church and an AoG church form a sister relationship and maybe once a month or once every two months, one church will travel to the other and join worship, then repeat it the other way around, and maybe...just maybe, during the summer, find a good campground, and hold a week long tent meeting Holy Spirit Jesus camp, camping out, breaking bread, but the main business would be preaching in the tent and tarrying for the Lord to come down in Fire and Power and Holiness, just waiting on Him, but doing it TOGETHER!

God bless you Lea, a Jewish male and an African-American woman posting together on this forum, never thought I'd see the day. Did I address the sin of fornication? thats the next post, to my sister Ginny.

In Jesus' love, neil

H
HeartSong

At first the temple was mostly white, but Praise God, we got a real rainbow of ethnicities at that humble church . . .

. . . [b][i]rainbow[/i][/b] of ethnicities . . . :-)

S
sermonindex

I've been thinking and praying what I want to write as led by God, and again I say, my voice is soft. You wrote:

As the father of several aborted children, you are experiencing intense grief for past sins - sins confessed and repented of, I am sure. To be reminded again of it angers you...you are having a hard time forgiving yourself.

Sister, may God love you as I do, but you are assuming what I feel, and you are wrong.

I am feeling intense grief that those children were KILLED. I'll explain: I've had three major loves in my life, and what you should understand is that those who do not know Messiah, lead what many here would regard as "unregenerate lifestyles", and hence be classified "fornicators". That's the view from safe within the walls of the church.

But my first love, lets call her Laura, we fell in love at 14, she was 13, and Jewish like me, beautiful and smart, we would spend hours talking, such fun. Our love was chaste, we were both innocents. I had made a promise to my dying grandmother that I would never marry any girl, but a Jewish girl. Silly as it sounds, at 14, I wanted to marry her, I think thats why she broke up with me(lol) I dropped out of the prestigious private highschool we both attended at 17, joined the Navy, completed boot camp with high marks, and was rewarded with probably one of the most sensitive jobs in the Navy, besides handling nuclear reactors or nuclear weaponry, but first came back home after boot camp, tanned, lean, muscular, in a dress white uniform, all white, and one of my rich, ultra-rich classmates was holding a party in his families 15 room apt, there were about 100 kids there, this was 1977, and Laura was there, she saw me, and I saw her, and it was like two magnets coming together. I loved her so much, on so many different levels. I would have married her the next morning. We planned a date the next evening, she borrowed her father's Mercedes Benz, and off we went. (He loathed me, "good" Jewish boys didnt join the Navy, and besides my family wasnt wealthy, not what he wanted for his lil girl) and that evening, we were intimate. Was it for the sex? No, not at all, people here might want to think it was all about lust, but we loved each other, dearly.

So, I left for my training, was taught Korean, and intel gathering skills, we wrote 10 page letters back and forth, this woman was a true intellect, I went off to Korea, hundreds of letters between us, and then I was stationed in Washington DC, and she was at Smith College in Massachusetts, and every chance we got, I was in Mass, or she was in DC, and on my 21st birthday we concieved. I knew EXACTLY what I was doing, and she had to also, because we had been having albeit sporatic, unprotected sex for 4 years. But at 2 in the morning, late December, as we lay in her dorm room, I can still see the ice on the her window, and a pair of candles buring, I whispered in her ear, "you're pregnant". "nooo", she whispered back. I shook my head, and said, "trust me, you are now pregnant", and we fell asleep. a few weeks later, she called me, she was pregnant.

Now, I was begging to marry her...way before this, dying to marry this woman, wanting to, nothing mattered to me more, this was my soulmate, my intellectual counterpart, but she said, and kept saying, "no, I'm not ready"...and me being the kind of "liberated" man that I was, I didnt press the point, but there were two things I didnt know, first, her father and mother both thought me beneath their station in life, even though they didnt know I handled material which I could have before the Presidents eyes in ten minutes flat. (her father was one of those left-wingy type lawyers that hated the military...knee jerk hatred, reflexive hatred) and second she was in the opening stages of having an affair with a classmate of ours at another Massachusetts college ten minutes away, I dont know if they were yet active at this point.

When she told me she was pregnant, I was so happy, but I couldnt even breathe because I feared what was next, I asked her very cautiously"what are you going to do?" She said, "You want me to have it?" ("IT"......thats when I started to really get scared) "Yesss".

She said, "I can't do that"....I said, "Baby, lets get married tommorrow".

"I can't do that either".

Trying to stay calm, I asked, "well, what do you want to do?"

"I don't know" Then I got real serious, I said very calm, "please, please, I am BEGGING you, do NOT kill that child". She started crying, and I told her, I would get emergency leave and be up there in 4 hours, and we'd just talk. No, she didnt want that. Over the next few days we talked, and I kept pleading begging, I even called my mother immediately, and asked her to back me up, care wise, and call Laura and let her she was there for her. It didnt matter, she had made up her mind, or in the week it took her to get the courage up to call her parents, they made up her mind for her, ordered her home, abortion time. I knew the precise moment it was all taking place, I went on sick leave that day, and just laid with my back against the wall, shivering, weeping, I could feel his limbs being torn apart, as I knew the exact time of the "appointment", and something died inside me, it was my love for her, at that moment I hated her, deeply and throughly. That was MY child too, and believe me, saints, I would be no absentee father. How dare she kill my child, our child? She should have just taken a gun and put it to my head too at that moment, for the way I felt. Kill me too....good.

I stopped calling, I couldnt, I could never feel the same way about her again. She would make the odd call or two, and then she wanted to come down to DC to see me, and on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial she told me of the affair she was having with our classmate, whose family was very wealthy, much more to her fathers liking. I sat down on those marble steps where my hero, Dr. Martin Luther King spoke to 250,000 people and I wept. She put her arm around me, and I stopped crying, looked up at her, and said, "please....don't", and then went back to mourning it all. After I finished we went thru the charade of having dinner at a Vietnamese resturant in Georgetown, fancy place. I was okay at that time, very subdued, but inside just cratered, and Laura made the mistake of ordering a nice bottle of white wine. She knew all the fine wines, but I dont drink that much, however that evening I did, and as the wine took effect, I spoke my heart, and my heart was dark and coursing. I spoke of a murdered child, I spoke of betrayal, I spoke of phony convienent love, it was ugly, she was in tears, I was in tears...I didnt raise my voice, I just didnt take my eyes off hers. The real steam behind my whole drunken diatribe was that child, repeatedly asking, "How could kill our baby?"

Finally I had enough, enough wine, enough table time with her, signaled to the waiter, threw a hundred on the table, rose, she rose with me, we went outside, I hailed a cab, and asked her what airport she wanted, "Dulles", gave the driver a twenty, opened the door for her, she got in, and I said "see ya". (mind you, she had more credit cards on her, than any of us have, so it wasnt out of line for me to assume she could ticket any flight she wanted) and that was the last time I spoke with her.

The classmate she was having an affair with became her husband, dont know when, they have three children. Her father was disbarred in 1985 for being a crook, and her husband facebooked me, asking me for free tickets to my show as "money was tight", I guess his people didnt leave him a large inheritance, and to date they havent come to see my show. I told him, "that I can't give out free tickets, but I'd love to see you guys".

Do I forgive her? of course. Do I still grieve over that baby. You bet, yes I do, BUT its a Romans 8:28 thing, because on my 35th birthday me and my wife, the most beautiful red-headed South side Irish/Jewish woman I've ever met concieved our only child.My boy. God likes to give me good birthday presents, because two days ago, that boy,all of 13 years old, with his mother in tow, was accepted at a prestigious military academy, scoring 99 percantile on all tests. He wanted to go there, because it is his intention to attend Annapolis and God willing become a Naval Aviator.

Now the only unhappiness about this all, is that his mother divorced me after my salvation, and I miss her, tremendously, but she wasnt walking with God at that time, and we had grown very toxic. She follows Jesus now, but had re-married, a man who I love very much, a man I respect. Since my salvation I have not "dated"....or anything. I miss my wife.

So there it is. I dont feel any "guilt", you get washed in the Blood, and such guilt goes away. I'm wrecked right now, as these are memories were long forgotten, I have not the strength to recount the other two times.

What I say originally stands, I'm just happy those babies are alive, and to those who feel called to denounce sin, fingers a pointing, cheeks quavering at this sin or that sin, or pronounce this one a "true" Christian OR NOT, tread very carefully, you're playing with Fire, the Fire of God, and He doesnt have much patience with hypocrites. (I'm not talking to you Ginny) There is nothing ANY of us can do to be HOLY ENOUGH, despite what various holiness preachers may tell you. God can see right thru ALL of us, right thru the religious pride, the posturing, the posing, the churchly venacular, the religiousity, all of it. Point a finger, you play with Fire, consider the case of Ted Haggard and tremble with fear, fore God will expose all hypocrisy.

All we can do, is to plead the Blood of Christ and throw ourselves on the Mercy of God, anybody tells you otherwise doesnt know the Truth of the Gospel.

God bless ya Ginny I love you and the LORD loves you, neil

F
fuehrerbe21

What I say originally stands, I'm just happy those babies are alive, and to those who feel called to denounce sin, fingers a pointing, cheeks quavering at this sin or that sin, or pronounce this one a "true" Christian OR NOT, tread very carefully, you're playing with Fire, the Fire of God, and He doesnt have much patience with hypocrites. (I'm not talking to you Ginny) There is nothing ANY of us can do to be HOLY ENOUGH, despite what various holiness preachers may tell you. God can see right thru ALL of us, right thru the religious pride, the posturing, the posing, the churchly venacular, the religiousity, all of it. Point a finger, you play with Fire, consider the case of Ted Haggard and tremble with fear, fore God will expose all hypocrisy.

I've been trying to stay out of this thread, but this has prompted me to ask a question. I am asking this objectively, and have no hidden intentions.

Based on what you are saying in this quote, are you saying that we (as people in human form) are unable to identify any type of sin? This could mean in ourselves or in other people?

I am not putting words into your mouth, I just want to know if this is what you are saying.

Respectfully,
-Ben

S
sermonindex

you asked me:

are you saying that we (as people in human form) are unable to identify any type of sin?

no.

and then you asked me :

This could mean in ourselves or in other people?

ah, now we venture into new territory, and allow me to pose two questions to you:

are you without sin?

and I don;t ask that with any hidden agenda or intentions, or to shame you.

and I ask you who said this in Scripture?

And I said: "Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips.

not only who said this, but why did he say this?

you wrote this in another post and another thread. I dont bring it up to shame you (God forbid) but to illuminate what I mean:

I can tell you from personal experience, that I have been called out as being "self-righteous", "pious", "holier than thou", and outright arrogant.

Perhaps these are true, but after sharing the Gospel with my sister this past week, it hit me. Those that are not saved, are offended by the Gospel. This may sound elementary, but if God has opened our eyes to something that he has not opened someone else's eyes to, they may feel as if we are arrogant.

let me ask you this, to some, yes, the Gospel might be offensive, but consider this, maybe its not the Gospel that's offensive to those who are desperately in need of peace, shalom, wholeness, rightouness imparted by the atoning Blood of the Messiah, but could it be, its the human messenger in all his or her own flaws, that is the one thats offensive?

Not the Message of life and life to the fullest, everlasting, cleansed of sin by our Beautiful Jesus...not the Message, but could it be the human messenger, that is sometimes offensive?

and Ben, my Wisconsin brother(greatest state in the Union)there are no human words that can convince an overburdened sinner to drink of the Living Waters. All I can do is give you my own testimony, and no man's words saved me. I was saved by the God the Holy Ghost in a house trailer,just Him and me, when I was crushed by God, and brought into the Arms of Jesus.

Furthermore I state again, there is NOTHING we can do to make ourselves holy ENOUGH, our righteousness is imparted, its imputed, its supernatural, it's the Blood of Jesus. Does that mean we go out and live like the devil? God forbid, but I am simply tired of all this finger pointing and verbiage designed to make a schematic of "us" and "them".
and I am simply tired of all this trafficking in "get out of hell free" cards."Accept Jesus so you won't go to hell".

Hell? look around you, what do you think this old earth is? at least parts of it,worldy systems, greed, hunger,war, misery, sickness, murder, its hellish in it's own rights.
Even if God sent me to hell, I would count it gain at having loved and served Jesus while in this human tent, because He told me, in His Own Words, that He is "gentle and lowly in heart", and I love Him, and I will try my best to do like Him, "gentle and lowly in heart"....or "poor in spirit".

The Message is just fine, its some of the messengers that need some real reflection and recalibration in the Ministry of the Holy Spirit, and that don;t exclude myself.

God Bless you, and I know where one small taste of Heaven is on earth, the Driftless Region of Wisconsin!! God bless you Ben, neil

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi fuehrerbe21...


fuehrerbe21 wrote:
What I say originally stands, I'm just happy those babies are alive, and to those who feel called to denounce sin, fingers a pointing, cheeks quavering at this sin or that sin, or pronounce this one a "true" Christian OR NOT, tread very carefully, you're playing with Fire, the Fire of God, and He doesnt have much patience with hypocrites. (I'm not talking to you Ginny) There is nothing ANY of us can do to be HOLY ENOUGH, despite what various holiness preachers may tell you. God can see right thru ALL of us, right thru the religious pride, the posturing, the posing, the churchly venacular, the religiousity, all of it. Point a finger, you play with Fire, consider the case of Ted Haggard and tremble with fear, fore God will expose all hypocrisy.

I've been trying to stay out of this thread, but this has prompted me to ask a question. I am asking this objectively, and have no hidden intentions.

Based on what you are saying in this quote, are you saying that we (as people in human form) are unable to identify any type of sin? This could mean in ourselves or in other people?

I am not putting words into your mouth, I just want to know if this is what you are saying.


I understand what you are saying...and I think that I understand what Neil is trying to say too. There is a difference between pointing out sin...and pointing out sin in someone's life. And, of course, both of these are different from judging whether a person is a believer or not.

The article that Greg included speaks for itself. This world is in a state where sins that were once embarrassing are just not embarrassing anymore.

My wife is from Mexico, but she was raised in an area that had the highest teen pregnancy rate in the nation. The Rio Grande Valley of the Texas/Mexico border has an unbelievably high pregnancy rate. I asked my wife why this is. She told me that the biggest factor as she understands it is the welfare society. The border region of Texas is extremely poor. Yet the people do not worry about paying for their children. They don't worry about feeding their babies. They don't worry about having a place for their babies to live. Why? The government pays for it all.

My wife said that the culture of the Rio Grande Valley also is conducive for pregnancies. Most children belong to large families (my wife has nine siblings). If a teenage girl becomes pregnant, the grandmother is always there to help take care of the baby. The teenage girl can continue being a "teenager." Even if the family is unable or unwilling to help, the government in the Valley provides day care centers for every high school. In other words, the responsibility of motherhood is not there like one would expect.

To its credit, the Rio Grande Valley is heavily against abortion. This is due to its Cathoic roots. However, the high schools are also filled with young people who have a Catholic culture but pay little attention to all of the definitions of what "sin" might be. While the Catholic Church teaches against premarital sex, theft and drugs, the message is not resonating with the kids. The people who live around my wife's parents have teens as young as 12 years old who are pregnant. My in-law's 10 yr old neighbor was killed from a bad drug deal. My in-law's home has been burglarized four times in the past three years -- and they had their burro stolen last year!

That being said, I think that we should be careful when we point out such things. There are some sins that are abundantly clear. We can say that they are sin -- but we should always say so with a broken heart that is filled with God's love. Jesus ate and drank with "sinners." We should have such a compassion for those who are lost, those who are fallen and those who are even self-righteous that we are willing to risk our Christian "holiness status" enough to reach out to those who are hurting. We should not apologize for what the Gospel calls "sin." However, we should not point out sin unless we have true, heart broken passion for those who might or might not be caught in sin.

We can preach against abortion. We can preach against premarital sex. But we should preach in such a way that those who are guilty are won over by the love of God.

W
wind_blows

Dear Nathan4Jesus

Edit: I felt I should change what I posted.Just felt like my other post may have been to emotionally written. So this post has been edited. I have decided to delete much of what I first posted and instead just want to ask what would you say as a Christian to a young sixteen year old girl who is sleeping with her seventeen year old boyfriend and professes to love the Lord? How would you point her to Jesus and share with her,her need to repent if you never speak to her about the sin she is in???????

You are right we are all sinners, but that does not mean we don't help each other to walk in the Lord. Hebrews 3:13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
We can not exhort one another daily if we are not even willing to invest in one another lives and speak honestly so that we will not be deceived.
I know you are older then I am so thoughtfully and respectfully I will tell you that I disagree with most of what you have shared here today.

Your little sis in Him

Edit: I just wanted to come back on and say that I in no way am saying that I am not a sinner. I am so thankful for the people, loving and caring people God has put in my life who are willing to tell me like it is. I know that I will not always see things in my life that others walking with the Lord might see, self can deceive, the heart is deceitful, so I am so glad that their are others in the body who are willing to share with me. Sometimes it is painful and hard to hear truth and yet it has been these people, who love the Lord that have challenged me the most to seek Jesus, to lay down my life and die to sin!

S
sermonindex

(why some people dont use their names, I can never understand, so I'll call you Lil Sis, okay?)
Lil Sis, you wrote:

Please don't misunderstand me, I am not trying to be flippant with you about what you wrote but it just breaks my heart to read this stuff.

Well, I'm sorry I broke your heart, didnt mean to. (if you can discern a little sarcasm, I beg your forgiveness, its a character flaw me and Jesus are working on)

First off, how old are you? Secondly, this friend thats having sex with her boy friend, are you three in the same Church?.....in the youth group there?

the reason I ask this is that you asked me this question:

Tell me please what would you say as a Christian to a young girl who is sleeping with her seventeen year old boyfriend and professes to love the Lord?

Just what you've done to date, call her on her sin, if she doesn't listen, thats why I asked you if you three belong to the same Church and youth group.

IF you do, now its time to follow what Scripture has to say, bring in two or three from the Church and that would include an older sister in the Lord,presumably the youth group leader and speak with her again, pray with her, sit with her, and HIM, the boyfriend, and testify and discuss this sin, and God willing, If the Holy Spirit convicts them of this sin, good. Failing that, then its time to bring the couple, the youth leader, and the pastor of the Church to counsel them. You stay out of that meeting. If they dont submit to the leadership that God has entrusted to the pastor, and the youth leader, what does Scripture say to do?

BUT, if you're all just three lone wolfs, and belong to different churches, or those two aint churched, you have done what the Lord has led you to do, and that is to lovingly (I pray, rather than hectoring) point out "that this is NOT God's best for you girlfriend"...after that, what do want to happen? Do you think by YOUR human will you're gonna bully or manipulate her into a course of righteousness?

No, you won't, so let God deal with her, I think He's more than able, don't you think? Of course you can use that love for your wayward friend by really doubling down on your intercessory prayer time, and watching miracles happen on your knees.

Now here's where the fine line between following Jesus and just being a unloving busybody lays. you wrote:

I will keep praying for her, and sharing truth with her, but I will not support her sinful, selfish behavior and pretend that it does not matter.

Then don't, either walk away, or love her as she is, without agenda. But here's a problem, you wrote:

I would pray and hope that there would be brothers and sisters around me that when they see sin in my life that I am either ignoring or don't see would call me on it

amen, but there comes a point, when people "call" one another on sin, that borders on "religious" abuse and manipulation, I use the word "religious" very deliberately, because there have been countless number of souls that have been wounded or hurt by either well-meaning or not so well meaning folks wrapped up in "religion", who "call" them on their sin, and that calling becomes a hectoring or badgering, its not exhortation anymore, Exhorting is POINTING someone in the right direction, not pushing them.

Point in case, how did Jesus deal with the adulterous woman brought to him to be stoned?

"Go and sin no more", but two things were never written, did she go on sinning? God knows, and what was Jesus writting in the sand? God knows,but I have a feeling it was a list of her accusers hidden secret sins.

Its God the Holy Ghost that convicts one of sin, not you, or me. What do you think the whole plank and splinter parable is about? We might be used by the Spirit to point the errant sinner in the right direction, but its God that takes them by the hand, understand?

I will say to you what I said before, I AM JOYOUS those babies are alive and so is God because He loves them! I don't care whether you or anybody on this forum agrees with me, coz I am not here to please man, I'm here to please God, not man, and I know that God loves LIFE, He doesnt care whether these lil souls come from the Ward and June Cleever family (TV show) or from a 16 year old little alone black girl in the South Bronx.

and I still find it the depth of hypocrisy to becry a rise in live babies being born out of wedlock, which is a sin of ignorance, while we still have abortion on demand, which is an intentional sin, and murder at that.

If you agree with me on what I posted, fine, if you disagree, fine......and in closing, my tone might be strident, but its not hateful, or mean.

God love you Lil Sis....be brave, go by your God given name, mine is neil, shalom.

S
sermonindex

I spent an hour going over your post, PREVIOUS post, and writing to you in as loving and Godly manner I could, praying, putting heart and soul behind what I had to say, and you (wisely) had second thoughts about your first post, and that is cool, because you learned a neat lesson, which is one that I learned thru bitter tears and recrimination, before you hit the "submit" button, "should I do it Jesus?"...lol

no worries, in Jesus love, neil

W
wind_blows

Hey Neil

Thanks for answering my question. Sorry to have cause you to spend an hour over my deleted post.
If I may share some with you from your post?Some of what you wrote has a tendency to sound as if anyone who calls the sin of premarital relationships as judging, you paint a picture that is not entirely accurate or fair. Instead of lumping many together and painting the picture with such broad strokes you might think about clarifying that there are some who speak in a judgmental ways but that does not change the fact that we are told to lovingly in a Christlike manner point one another toward Jesus and at times that may require us to admonish one another for the sin we are in.(It is painful, but at times very good for us:-) You also come across as equating that anyone who speaks against the sin of fornication some how does not love or care just as deeply for the unborn child that may result. Please understand that one can deeply love these unborn children, be against abortion, and still love the moms and dads enough to share truth with them. May I ask you do you think that those others here that have spoken against the sin of fornication do not rejoice with you that these children are alive??? I believe that they do. I will close by saying this, I do agree that the heart in which we speak to one another does matter just as much if not more then what we might say, and as in all things that we do, we should be diligent and in prayer that we speak only what the Lord has for us and do not walk outside of that heart or attitude.


As you said Neil if you don't agree with me that is fine. No worries:-) Its all good:-)

Your little sis in Him

S
sermonindex

I think you may be misinterpeting or distorting what I was saying.

There is a very pronounced tendency within the evangelical church in north america to "cherry pick" which sins they denounce, and which sins they either ignore or give short shrift to.

For instance below, Chris brought up the roman institution effect on Mexico, well, as the Lord is my witness that roman institution is FULL of sin. In fact its very existence, underlines the depravity of most institutions that hide under the cloak of "religion", it's very existence is apostasy of the worst kind.

Many here, spent many hours, testifying to the sin-soaked nature of Todd bentley's "ministry", and true to God's nature, Todd was exposed, but at the same time, I dont see anybody calling out those some of those hideous apostate open air preachers, one in particular who started his antics on this very forum, I know he has been expelled, but the heart-breaking displeasure to watch his religious pride-soaked ramblings last night, deeply disturbing as this very young man, is lining up to be the next Jed Smock. Nobody calls him out on his sin, as he spews his "doctrine" amongst vulnerable college kids, and brings reproach to Jesus and the Grace and Majesty of the Gospel. I could do that, but for what purpose, God's going to deal with him, my prayer is that God gently steer him in the way he should go, instead of just exposing him in utter humiliation and ruin.

In the period of Oct 2002, until the first bombs started falling in Iraq in March 2003, and even to this very day, nobody has called out President Bush for the sin of lying to the American people, for embroiling us in an illegal, immoral unwinnable war in Iraq that was based on "intelligence" that anybody who had any real knowledge of the region KNEW was a lie, said war costing 4,000 American lives, and only God knows, how many innocent Iraqi's perished, not to mention the 2 trillion dollars sucked down the black hole of the military-industrial complex.

Its easier to have endless arguments over Bible versions, or the all too familiar "divorce/remarriage" argument, rather than call out a leader in his sin, or the same gaggle of well heeled executives that keep the weapons pipeline full for an empire gone mad, and then wonder why, we are in a financial depression, and the result that many good decent middle class families stand on the brink of ruin. When a believer would make that call, he or she would be accused of posting "political" threads, or get quoted Romans 13 ad infinitum. But today, many here pin this depression on President Obama, or call him the "anti-christ", bent on making America a "socialist nation", when in fact it was the previous President that engendered this terrible crisis, took us from surplus's, to a deficit that is mind boggling.

Many blame the "media", or the "culture" for our current woes, and the sin that birthed these woes, instant gratification, over-consumption, lust for the quick profit, the fleshly reliance on our many "horses and chariots" to enforce our will on the world, while we neglect the least of the least within our every own country, if you call out that sin also, what are called? a "liberal". Well read the Major Prophets in the Bible and they consistently prophesy against such sin. Were Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekial "liberals"?

I think not.

...and what do we have today?, a religious institution being hijacked and co-opted by an empire, and heaven forbid, you should call out such sin and rank hypocrisy. The Early Church was growing strong in the Lord, until the roman empire expropriated it, and made the whole once beautiful Ekkelsia into the whore of babylon, the holy roman empire, and those dogs and child molestering "priests" who engage in popery, mary worship and other such blasmphemous superstitutions and lies from the pit of hell, that calls itself the roman catholic "church". I shudder to think what this nation, God have mercy on us, will come up with as the official imperial "church", or how many will die that don't submit to this apostasy.

That's the sin that concerns me MOST of all.

Lil Sis, dont worry about responding to this post, I have a feeling many others will refute me.

But as I said before, if you agree with me, fine, if you don't, fine. Man's condemnation doesnt faze me at all. I aim to please God, and to serve Jesus, period.

neil

B
broclint

I have read this whole thread, and am more than a little shocked that no one has come back to rebuke you Neil for your rude, uncalled for, pharisaic comments, "the pot calling the kettle black". I have read many of your comments on many other threads and have restrained myself from commenting, but this one crosses the line big time.

First of all, your comments were totally out of line since all Greg did was post an article. You have your baggage and have let it all hang out... that is your privilege/shame, but to judge a brother and try to read his heart and make "prophesies" regarding his demise, and call it of the Holy Spirit is just plain disgusting. For all your repeated WORDS of 'sweet spirit' and 'humility' your whitewashed robe of pride is shining out from under it.

“the river of hypocrisy runs so deep thru this website, that if a saved sinner looking for any mercy, any blessing, would soon be swamped and drowned by it.”


And so you are in the unique position to judge us all???

Matthew 7:3-5 ( NKJV )
And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye?
Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye?
Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

If they ("the saved sinner an oxymoron") are looking for mercy it is most easily and readily found. The truth will set you free. Jesus spoke truth, and the 8th chapter of John was not the only place He spoke it. He spoke it to the rich young ruler, who walked away sorrowfully because he didn’t receive compromise, nor did those would be followers that wanted the Lord to make some concessions for them so they could "follow Him". He spoke it to the woman at the well, gently no doubt, but certainly without compromise. He spoke it to the Syro-Phonecian woman in a manner that would have no doubt offended enough to get a number of responses on this forum for political incorrectness … and of course He spoke it to those who had seen and seen and seen and still refused to believe, and told them in no uncertain terms what would be the result of their stubbornness.



“You see, thats the trouble with many of you on this forum, you are so locked in your "holiness" and your doctrines of work related salvation, that anybody that doesnt, or hasnt fit YOUR idea of the Love and Mercy of Jesus, that would adjudge such, as the lost, as objects of scorn, you have gone so far away from the Ministry of Jesus Who saved and cleanses souls such as mine. and God willing those lovers of mine. Jesus is the Loving Father, the older brother I never had that could have said to me" Neil there's a better way, Follow me"......and finally I opend my heart to Him. Am I perfect? Lord no! Sanctfication is an ongoing process, despite what some of these harsh, works oriented preachers you have plastered all this site, might say.”

And who fits your template? And if they don't they are hypocrites, Pharisees, bigots, etc. "harsh" again, the pot calling the kettle black... what hypocrisy!

By the way, this is Greg's website, and who (oh sorry I forgot) are you to come on here tell him what he should put on his own website. Like anyone here is going to try to tell you what to put on yours? It is a privilege to write on these forums, not a right!

The theology that you have displayed in this thread, and victim-ology sounds like something off of Oprah, certainly not from the New Testament. Paul wrote to Rome, Corinth, et al, to slaves and masters who were both brothers and sisters in the same church at the same time with the same responsibility.. please, spare us the liberal lectures... we all have ancestors and there is not a people in America that does not have someone in their background that was a victim of someone... some of mine are on a reservation... so what has that got to do with my own responsibility in the here and now, or any one of us... sounds like Eve blaming the devil, Adam blaming Eve, and in the end both of them blaming God... "each man shall bear his own burden".

Let me be very frank with you Greg as the Holy Spirit leds me , and in the love I can muster in this cracked clay vessel. You have been overtaken with religious pride and I see nothing of the Pure Sweet Merciful Grace and Love of the Lord Jesus Christ in your words, and your witness. You are a young man who God gifted with a powerful internet minstry and your judgements and slander, read discerment give witness to this. You probably want to make me "anonymous" now, as you have so many you dared challenge anything you post, but search your heart, Ask God the Holy Ghost if what I say is true.

Read your words here sir... please! If you have slept on these words and have awakened with them still in your heart, I suggest prayer... your "slander, read discernment" is most certainly skewed. Since when can you read a man's heart, and I assure you I cannot read yours, but I most certainly can read your words... by which we are either condemned or justified.

Shame on you! The LORD rebuke you. Hear me, I will give prophesy now, if you keep this up, not the ministry, but your own hidden fleshly ways, then you and this ministry will go onto the rocks of ruin and error, and woe, if you drag anyone down with you. I have much to repent for, always will, till the day I see Jesus, but brother Greg, repent.

That is a most audacious statement. "The LORD rebuke you" is reserved for demons, not brothers, and as for your prophesy, I believe you need to check out where this one came from... and perhaps, perhaps you may find it in your heart to do as you have advised since you have attacked a brother beloved by many of us here, who is providing a service that has been a blessing to millions. The question you asked regarding a very simple and informative post on the news thread "why did you post this?" could and should be asked you. Why, oh why did you post what you have, here and in many other places where a civil discussion has been interrupted by the spilling of your guts and self-righteous rebukes?

Clint

W
White_Stone

Speaking to Neil,

we are in a financial depression, and the result that many good decent middle class families stand on the brink of ruin.

You paint your picture with a broad brush. If people had not fallen in the 'debt' trap they would not be on the brink of ruin. This goes for ALL people, the bankers and the business owners, the corporations and the governments. Investing in 'debt' was a profitable business for a while but those debtors are just as much slaves as the Negro race you speak of constantly. The children and grandchildren (the future generations) in this Country are slaves to the debt the Government is running up. Your own son is in that group but you do not express concern for that. . . I find this odd.

What is with this hatred you have for President Bush? Did not President Johnson entangle us in Viet Nahm - at what price? In my view, no one is in a position of power without God putting him there. I pray God's will be done.

While President Bush was in office, my husband and I were struggling with our lives and could not devote time to study his actions. Actually, for all our lives we have looked to Government as a necessary cost of civilization. Someone has to be the boss to get things done and as in the old saying, 'The Boss isn't always right but he's always the Boss.'

Several posts back you lift up the black worshipers on the Nimitz. Falling on their faces and crying. And the 'big black women' running up and down the aisles of the Church your mother took you to visit. Personally, I do not see this as meek, humble, orderly behavior. It seems like attention seeking chaos. By their fruits ye shall know them. It is easy for a impressionable youth to mistake this for exhibiting faith but you are now a grown man and should see it for what it most often is, simply exhibiting self. From your description of the worshipers, alone, the truth of the matter is shown. You saw their physical bodies and recorded that for posterity - not their fruits.

Your story of your first love read more like a screen play and I feel the details were uncalled for here. The most offensive line was to say how much money you threw on the table when you left the restaurant. In my whole life I have never had $100 to throw away for a lunch. Actually, I have never wanted to have a $100 lunch. Why did you feel it necessary to give such a detail? Did that put more value on the fact you were trying to put across?

BroClint made his points clearly, I hope you can see them.

By the way, Egypt made your people slaves, why is it that I only hear you harping on the slavery that was in America? The same slave trade that populated America served the whole civilized world at the same time. America did not hold the only franchise. My ancestors were slaves in Ireland and Germany to the Land Owners (haven't you seen Braveheart?) life was no less painful there. Let's live in the HERE and NOW and give thanks for the Word that was preserved and passed on to all of us.

Trying to speak as softly as I should but feel it necessary to say something,
white stone (you know my name)

W
wind_blows

Hey Neil

I had to come back one last time, spent some time in prayer and then I read your post here this morning. I just thought I should respond to a few things.

First off you wrote: I think you may be misinterpeting or distorting what I was saying.
*********
Neil through out this entire thread you have contently described people on this forum as being judgmental(even Greg) for speaking against the sin of fornication. Did you ever stop to think that perhaps people were commenting on the sin of fornication because it was the one mentioned in the article. Put up an article on lying and I will share truth about that as well. Put up one on pride and we can share truth from Gods word on that. Just because you do not agree with the article does not change the fact that fornication is sin and that it does go on even amongst so called believers and for the most part is ignored.

Second you wrote:Many here, spent many hours, testifying to the sin-soaked nature of Todd bentley's "ministry", and true to God's nature, Todd was exposed, but at the same time, I dont see anybody calling out those some of those hideous apostate open air preachers, one in particular who started his antics on this very forum, I know he has been expelled, but the heart-breaking displeasure to watch his religious pride-soaked ramblings last night, deeply disturbing as this very young man, is lining up to be the next Jed Smock. Nobody calls him out on his sin, as he spews his "doctrine" amongst vulnerable college kids, and brings reproach to Jesus and the Grace and Majesty of the Gospel. I could do that, but for what purpose, God's going to deal with him, my prayer is that God gently steer him in the way he should go, instead of just exposing him in utter humiliation and ruin.
********
Neil I will be honest, I don't know what you are talking about here so I can not comment concerning these people. I will leave that to those as you said who might know.

Third you wrote this:In the period of Oct 2002, until the first bombs started falling in Iraq in March 2003, and even to this very day, nobody has called out President Bush for the sin of lying to the American people, for embroiling us in an illegal, immoral unwinnable war in Iraq that was based on "intelligence" that anybody who had any real knowledge of the region KNEW was a lie, said war costing 4,000 American lives, and only God knows, how many innocent Iraqi's perished, not to mention the 2 trillion dollars sucked down the black hole of the military-industrial complex.
Its easier to have endless arguments over Bible versions, or the all too familiar "divorce/remarriage" argument, rather than call out a leader in his sin, or the same gaggle of well heeled executives that keep the weapons pipeline full for an empire gone mad, and then wonder why, we are in a financial depression, and the result that many good decent middle class families stand on the brink of ruin. When a believer would make that call, he or she would be accused of posting "political" threads, or get quoted Romans 13 ad infinitum. But today, many here pin this depression on President Obama, or call him the "anti-christ", bent on making America a "socialist nation", when in fact it was the previous President that engendered this terrible crisis, took us from surplus's, to a deficit that is mind boggling.
Many blame the "media", or the "culture" for our current woes, and the sin that birthed these woes, instant gratification, over-consumption, lust for the quick profit, the fleshly reliance on our many "horses and chariots" to enforce our will on the world, while we neglect the least of the least within our every own country, if you call out that sin also, what are called? a "liberal". Well read the Major Prophets in the Bible and they consistently prophesy against such sin. Were Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekial "liberals"?
************

Neil all I can say to this entire part is that your speaking about worldly stuff. I don't get involved in worldly stuff like this if I can help it. This is not my home, my home is in heaven with my Lord and Savior. From what I do know about both presidents let me just say this, it is interesting to me that you seem to be fully against one and fully support the other. You seem fine speaking out against Bush for the war, that is your right. Are you willing to speak out against Obama for his pushing of abortion?(You do not have to answer that just some thing to think about for you)

Last you wrote: ...and what do we have today?, a religious institution being hijacked and co-opted by an empire, and heaven forbid, you should call out such sin and rank hypocrisy.
***************

Neil here you are calling the institution sin and rank hypocrisy. You say many churches are filled with judgmental hypocrites that choose sin to be against. All I and some others are saying that it is filled with fornication to. Why is it alright for you to call out others for their sin of hypocrisy and yet you condemn others for sharing truth concerning fornication. Seems as if you are also picking and choosing which sin to speak about. As far as I can read sin is sin and God hates it all. Fornication and hypocrisy. We should strive to die to it all don't you think??

Just one last thought, you wrote: Lil Sis, dont worry about responding to this post, I have a feeling many others will refute me.But as I said before, if you agree with me, fine, if you don't, fine. Man's condemnation doesnt faze me at all. I aim to please God, and to serve Jesus, period.
**************

Neil if you don't mind me saying it almost seems like you looking for a fight, like maybe you have been since you first posted to this thread? That may not be your heart at all but that is how you come across. I will close by saying I think you owe Greg a public apology for your first post but that is between you and God and Greg.

Have a great day Neil:-)
you little sis

Edit:wanted to make clear that I really don't favor either political party at all. I only reference the two presidents actions on the different situations to show you Neil that perhaps you to have a habit of choosing which sins you speak out against. While you were against Bush and the war I have not heard you speak out against president obama for his pushing the abortion legislation. (Again this is just something that you might think about) Personally I am praying for both men:-)

S
sermonindex

You been waiting a long time for this rebuke Clint? Well now you made it I was speaking my heart, and what you call "spilling my guts" is me being transparent.

and what you indicate in your post, is that you been laying for me a long time, and why?

I have read many of your comments on many other threads and have restrained myself from commenting, but this one crosses the line big time.

why was that? Because I condemned an illegal ill thought out war? You think I'm a dove? or as you later say, "liberal"? Think what you want.



The theology that you have displayed in this thread, and victim-ology sounds like something off of Oprah, certainly not from the New Testament.
please, spare us the liberal lectures...

thats the one Clint..."spare us your liberal lectures"...that lets me know, how bad you been laying for me, it all just added up, huh? Can't disagree with anybody, can I? NO, because according to you I'm just a person who is not only "liberal", but a person who

post what you have, here and in many other places where a civil discussion has been interrupted by the spilling of your guts and self-righteous rebukes?

"self-righteous"?

and here's where you and I differ, what you wrote:

You have your baggage and have let it all hang out... that is your privilege/shame,

thats right Clint, because I have no pride as you accuse me of, I thought among the saints was EXACTLY the place where you could "let it all hang out",as you call it, I call it transparency, obviously you disagree.

I was stunned by Greg's original post. Just as you have been watching and reading my posts, I have been watching and reading many posts (not by you) and that was where I found it all crossed the line, and it didnt matter whether it was a poster with 150 posts, or a moderator, or the owner of this website, that post of Greg's crossed the line big time with me, just as my last one with you did. Because I was thinking to myself, why would anyone fret over children NOT being aborted?...even if they came from single mother's? I know the answer to that question, and maybe my post was intemperate, as yours is now, but I never adressed a single person as you did me, nor did I accuse all posters of what you say I did. I have dear brothers and brothers on this forum, who I communicate off this forum. But you can call me any theologically insulting name that comes to your mind, because I happen to disagree with you, or Greg or anybody else.

Heaven forbid I disagree with the othrodoxy, whether it be religious or political, right? Heaven forbid, I "spill my guts", or "let it all hang out", trying to be true,real, and transparent, right.

That isnt how Christians act, right?

S
sermonindex

you're wrong,

Neil if you don't mind me saying it almost seems like you looking for a fight

I'm not, I was stunned that Greg put that post up because to me anychild that escapes the abortion mill is a blessing..even if 72% of them are black..and we dont know each other, but you wrote this:

While you were against Bush and the war I have not heard you speak out against president obama for his pushing the abortion legislation.

I sat three feet away from then Senator Obama at a dinner table and told him, "I think abortion is murder, plain and simple". believe it or not. I just never had the same opportunity with President Bush regarding Iraq.

thank you for your good wishes on the day, God bless you too, neil

S
sermonindex

I'm going to write you a PM. Two things, I'll probably be banished by Greg, because Bro Clint is a well respected member of this forum, and secondly, I'm done with this thread. Its been very very illuminating.

W
wind_blows

Hey Neil

You said:I sat three feet away from then Senator Obama at a dinner table and told him, "I think abortion is murder, plain and simple". believe it or not. I just never had the same opportunity with President Bush regarding Iraq.
*********

If you don't mind me asking what was his response? I really am interested to know. Also wondering why you did not share that here before, why just the rant about Bush? Your post came across as attacking Bush, defending Obama???(again maybe just some food for thought)

You also said that you were stunned by Gregs posting the article. Did you ever just ask him about the article and his motivation for posting it or did you just react. I know that there are times when I just react and in all honesty most of those times are in the flesh and not if His will. I asked once before and if I may ask again(don't want you to feel as if I am harassing you) do you think that Greg is not thankful for those saved lives as well. I know that I am.
I don't care how many of them are black, white, yellow, or what ever. I am just glad that they are not being aborted:-) For the record I think the best way to reach people that are living in sin is to share the truth of Jesus with them, to shine the love of the Lord on them and to get involved in their lives(if they want it) to mentor and help them daily walk out that life we have in Jesus. Paul Washer does a teaching on this and it is awesome.

I just want to say that if you have not spoken with Greg it is clear you have a greivance with him and we are told not to let the sun go down if we have a problem with are brother. If you have not already I would encourage you to be in touch with him so that you don't let the enemy have a foot hold in your life over this.

Thanks for the blessings.
Take care Neil
Your little sis in Him
Elizabeth(this is not my real name because I was taught not to give out to much info on the world wide web, but it is a nickname that I often go by:-)

PS I read you were done with this thread so I will send it in a PM to just in case you are not reading the thread anymore:-)

L
Lordoitagain

That isnt how Christians act, right?

Neil,

How do Christians act? Has anyone ever explained to you what repentance is? Have you ever discovered it in the Bible in your personal study?

In the book of I Corinthians Paul strongly rebuked them for sexual immorality. Did they have an attitude of defending it because it “wasn’t as bad as murder”??? No! They REPENTED:

2 Corinthians 7:8 For though I made you sorry with a letter, I do not repent, though I did repent: for I perceive that the same epistle hath made you sorry, though it were but for a season.
9 Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.
10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.

They were SO UPSET AT THEMSELVES for having been guilty of their sin that they had zeal and revenge against it. After such SORROW for their sin gripped their hearts, they were SO ASHAMED of what they had done.

I believe that that is the attitude of most people on SI. We are SO ashamed of the sins that we committed! We feel like SUCH WORMS for having participated in the crucifying of the innocent Son of God. If we talk about the sins of our past, it is under a shadow of INTENSE SHAME. If that shame ever leaves us, we need to examine ourselves. 2 Cor 13:5

We get alarmed at the news of the spread of sin. Does it not break your heart that people are committing fornication? Does it not move you to tears that people are sinning against the love that God expressed on Calvary? When we start comparing sins . . . making big sins and little sins . . . making fornication “not as bad” as murder . . . we take away the reality of God’s anger for ALL sin!!! ALL types of sin are what cost Jesus his life! I am ashamed of my participation in nailing Him to the cross, and it grieves me that 40% of the mothers in this country feel no shame for nailing Him too.

S
sermonindex

by Lordoitagain:

I believe that that is the attitude of most people on SI. We are SO ashamed of the sins that we committed! We feel like SUCH WORMS for having participated in the crucifying of the innocent Son of God. If we talk about the sins of our past, it is under a shadow of INTENSE SHAME. If that shame ever leaves us, we need to examine ourselves. 2 Cor 13:5

As they say, 'you nailed it' Brother.

I can't share my testimony unless The LORD give me 'strong' indication to do so, to and For the unsaved.

You nailed it Brother.

L
Lordoitagain

Amen, Brother:

Alas! and did my Savior bleed
And did my Sovereign die?
Would He devote that sacred head
For such a worm as I?

Thy body slain, sweet Jesus, Thine—
And bathed in its own blood—
While the firm mark of wrath divine,
His Soul in anguish stood.

Was it for crimes that I had done
He groaned upon the tree?
Amazing pity! grace unknown!
And love beyond degree!

Well might the sun in darkness hide
And shut his glories in,
When Christ, the mighty Maker died,
For man the creature’s sin.

Thus might I hide my blushing face
While His dear cross appears,
Dissolve my heart in thankfulness,
And melt my eyes to tears.

But drops of grief can ne’er repay
The debt of love I owe:
Here, Lord, I give my self away
’Tis all that I can do.

Refrain
At the cross, at the cross where I first saw the light,
And the burden of my heart rolled away,
It was there by faith I received my sight,
And now I am happy all the day!


Were you there when they crucified my Lord?
Were you there when they crucified my Lord?
Oh! Sometimes it causes me to tremble, tremble, tremble.
Were you there when they crucified my Lord?

Were you there when they nailed Him to the tree?
Were you there when they nailed Him to the tree?
Oh! Sometimes it causes me to tremble, tremble, tremble.
Were you there when they nailed Him to the tree?

Were you there when they laid Him in the tomb?
Were you there when they laid Him in the tomb?
Oh! Sometimes it causes me to tremble, tremble, tremble.
Were you there when they laid Him in the tomb?

Yes, I was there. I can't lightly talk about those acts that I did that caused His pain. Great remorse. Great shame. Great gratitude for His forgiveness.

One time I was in an office where I worked with several other employees. They were discussing a horrible situation that they had seen in the news about a man who had HIV and knowingly infected about 150 women with it. I was in full agreement with the horribleness of that man's evil, but then I turned the conversation a little. I stated that it was also HORRIBLE that all of those ladies committed fornication with him. When I said that, one would have thought that I had spoken some kind of blasphemy. Several of them started "attacking" me for saying such a thing.

One of the ladies said: "I do my fornicating, but I ask the Lord to forgive me".

I was SHOCKED to hear such a statement! Such a HORRIBLE misconception of God's forgiveness! Until there is true repentance, God doesn't promise forgiveness.

People with such flippant attitudes about sin have never really seen the cross. One glimpse of what He did on that tree is enough love to make any temptation to sin die! The cross is the cure for fornication, or any other sin, but one must see sin for what it is!

Isaiah 53:4  ¶Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5  But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.


Shall I crucify my Savior,
When for me He bore such loss?
Shall I put to shame my Savior,
Can I nail Him to the cross?

Shall I crucify my Savior?
Crucify my Lord again.
Once, O once, I crucified Him!
Shall I crucify again?

Are temptations so alluring,
Do their pleasures so enthrall;
That I cannot love my Savior,
Well enough to meet them all?

'Twas my sins that crucified Him,
Shall they crucify Him yet;
Blackest day of nameless anguish,
Can my thankless soul forget?

O, the kindly hands of Jesus,
Pouring blessings on all men;
Bleeding, nail scarred hands of Jesus,
Can I nail them once again?

Shall I crucify my Savior?
Crucify my Lord again.
Once, O once, I crucified Him!
Shall I crucify again?

Once, O once, I crucified Him!
Shall I crucify again?

G
ginnyrose

There is a DVD I would highly recommend to anyone who has been able to forgive himself/herself for having their child aborted. The title is "The Massacre of Innocence". I would also recommend it to anyone but be warned: it may challenge your comfort zone.

Eric Holmberg is the creator of "Massacre of Innocence", which was developed out of his own experience of having a child of his aborted.

This DVD is graphic and gut-wrenching. It can be purchased on eBay. You can also google Eric Holmberg and find his website where it is also offered for sale.

Blessings,
ginnyrose

S
sermonindex

I haved sinned against you in more than one way, and I beg your forgiveness. I sinned via my intemperate language, I have sinned by slander, and by assumption against you. I have sinned by letting a night go by without making amends. I have sinned by making public, what should have been expressed in private, and I beg your forgiveness.

My heartache is that I let time go by without making as such, but as we all know, I'm the not brightest bulb on the tree, the sharpest knife in the drawer....you get my meaning. I love you in the Lord, and will continue to pray for your ministry in this Gospel we hold to.

in contrition, your brother, neil

S
sermonindex

To any who have read my participation in this thread and were offended, I ask your forgiveness.

My Brother Clint, I ask your forgiveness in that I stirred a spirit of anger in you, and I am so sorry, please forgive me.

In Jesus' love, neil

M
MaryJane

Greetings Neil

Neil I just wanted to come and say that I really appreciated your last two posts here and the heart in which they were posted. Praise God, for He is always faithful to show us those things that hinder us in our walk with Him. Jesus is lifted up and glorified when we are willing to lay down our lives and live in submission to Him!!
What a wonderful testament to His faithfulness in working in our hearts!!
God Bless you brother
Maryjane

L
learn

Neil/Natan4Jesus,
I bet you never imagined that God used your below post to help me. Thank you and God bless.

I know I'm a bit off-topic here but felt it best to put my post here than elsewhere

To those that I've sinned here,
I want to apologize too for my past behaviour. I know that some of you have sinned against me more than I have you. But it doesn't matter because when you are God's child, you listen to God. The other party may never apologize but you still have to apologize when its time for you to do so. And its time. When I read Neil's apology, I immediately felt that God was challenging me to apologize. At first I said another time but it just took a short while for me to be willing to do so. Then I realize that a brother who has wronged me greatly and although I have blessed and prayed for him on and off, I could never truly felt that there was no bad feelings towards him. Well, it was until when I was willing to apologize to you all that I realize that I could really say I love him with all his flaws and what not. Then, I realize I could not even apologize because I had forgotten the password for quite some time already. Well, I was going to write this wonderful thing elsewhere but when I was writing it halfway elsewhere, I felt that even though God had accepted my apology, I should try harder to try to make an apology on this website. So, I prayed to God that if this is his will, then please let the password automatically appear when I type in my username (Yes, I know this usually is the norm but somehow it did not work for me in my past attempts here). Well, it was God's will and the password did appear automatically like what should be the norm usually.

Now, I don't care if the devil is going to try to make it difficult by getting that person or another to say something horrible like he was not in the wrong. The joy in the Lord is too precious to me to be willing to be tempted by the devil. And I know if I do get upset, God will clean me from my dross and cause me to have a closer walk with him.

Sorry for the long post...ummm not really. :-P

W
wind_blows

Hey Neil

So glad you came back:-)I know we went back and forth a bit, but it was all in love brother. I think it is really awesome that you came back and posted your apology to Greg. I know that these subjects are painful for many of us here and I just give thanks to God for bringing things into the light so that we all might grow in Him. What a praise it is when the sheep follow their Masters voice. Your heart in this has really demonstrated the love of Jesus:-)

Take care brother
Your little sis in Him
Elizabeth:-)

G
ginnyrose

Greenlea, your points are well spoken. I have been wanting to post again but wondered which thread to place it when I saw yours...

Neil, I think I understand your point in that why lament the rise of illegitimacy when it meant these babies were not aborted? You asked a good question, one I struggled with as I worked at a CPC. On the one hand I grieved when a single [woman] tested positive and also grieved when any woman wanted to abort her baby, be she single or married. Fornication is sin and so is murder. Murdering a child to cover up sin will always complicate matters. We walked on a thin edge when counseling these females, always pointing them to Jesus but very few were interested in going there - but perhaps some day they will. All we could do was to be faithful - God will do the rest. The only success I cared for was obedience to Him.

The greatest tragedy is as Greenlea pointed out: women being religious yet sinned with no regret. The problem is that Christians are telling folks that God has forgiven them and now you have to accept it. In our SS lesson this morning we had the verse in Luke 24:47 which informs us that repentance activates God's forgiveness for our sins. Repentance is the key!

Blessings to all,
ginnyrose

B
broclint

Brother Neil,

I appreciate so much your apology and your response in the PM regarding all the above. I want to say publicly as in private that there have been many things that I have appreciated in many of your posts, particularly as regards to Israel. And I left the wrong impression, I am sure, because I certainly have not been laying in wait to pounce upon you. And I do confess that I was provoked by the post on this thread and said far more than I needed to say, especially in bringing in the "Oprah... liberal... blah, blah, blah line" violating one of Crschk's well advised cautions to "play the ball not the man". I apologize to you and to all for that, and any hurt that I caused you and others.

I do thank God for this site and for the many, many godly and good commentaries that are made, and the way this cyber family continues to sharpen one another as iron sharpens iron. Most of the time we are quite civil and edifying even in our disagreements, and when we are not, thank God for His Holy Spirit conviction.

May God continue to bring us all into the image of the perfect man, Christ Jesus.

Clint

S
sermonindex

dear brothers and sisters,

I have been following this thread very closely. The Lord didn't lead me to say anything earlier but I have been reading...and praying. And my heart truly rejoiced at the posts that were put up today. The latter verses in James 3 came to mind, especially the very last verse:

"Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.
17 [b]But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.[/b]
James 3:13-18

Thank you to those who came forth with humble apologies...and especially to brother Neil for leading the way in sowing the fruit of righteousness in seeking to make peace. A beautiful savor of Christlikeness has come forth out of this thread...and it is an honor to the name of Jesus.

May He receive the glory and honor in the lives of those who bear His holy Name, and may we never bring shame to that blessed Name, Jesus Christ, through our thoughts, words or actions!

~Joy

M
Miccah


Natan4Jesus wrote:



my Wisconsin brother(greatest state in the Union)


Now I know that the Spirit moves in you. ;-)

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