Tea Party's

As many of you are probably aware, today hundreds if not thousands of cities throughout our country had "Tea Party's" in memory of the great Boston Tea Party years ago. I'm not personally big into politics, but today I participated in one in Charlotte, NC at the city hall. Probably 2-3,000 people showed up. I thought I'd share some of my pictures of what might be a historic day in our nation.

http://picasaweb.google.com/Jimmy.Humphrey/2009TeaParty?feat=directlink#

Yeah, not even all the local news stations in Charlotte showed up to cover it. It looks like only 2 or 3. And I thought, it's not often that many people gather together in uptown Charlotte of all places, except for a concert or professional sports game. Yet, it received very little attention. I'm dying to know if the local paper even covered it.

Watching the Tea Parties and waiting for what is to come. Someone on the other side *acting as a Tea Party member* will throw the first punch and the innocent will be blamed. Martial Law will be enacted and the heavy hand of the Government will slam down on all of us. The scenario plays out in my mind as if it were scripted by Hollywood. It is blatantly clear, just as a red sky at morning means storms brewing.

This is not something I want or even fear, just what I see coming.

I have been praying for Jesus to increase my strength. He is doing so but the growing process is painful. My Step Father died before we could get to see him. Pray for my family, please, they believe they are saved but they are in mortal danger. I praise Jesus for His faithfulness in answering my prayer and stand on

Romans 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.

His will be done,
white stone

Good question. In part of what I have understood about the gospel, we as believers are by nature protestors. What makes me different than the unbeliever at the same rally is that while I might post a sign or raise my voice about an issue, I don't operate under the delusion that this world is all that there is. Nor am I seeking to hold onto it by effecting political change. While passing through this world as a pilgrim, I seek to adjust things in this temporary world. I'm not seeking to build a kingdom in this world like many who partake in politics. Nor do I hope to bring about some everlasting change in the kingdoms of this world. But that doesn't mean I don't adjust the climate wherever I may reside for the time being.

*edit* When I stay at a hotel for but a few days, I adjust the thermostat as close as possible to my liking. By no means do I hope to stay in the hotel forever, I just seek to make it more like "home" as much as possible, though I know it shall never be such.

Dear Krispy,

Glad you asked him to go into detail, Krispy. I understood clearly that time. Thanks for phrasing it so precisely, KingJimmy. It makes it understandable how a Christian could take part in a Tea Party and not just to witness.

Kind regards,
white stone

I may draw some flack for asking this, but I think this question bears asking. Do you think these tea parties are biblical and have the spirit of Christ behind them?

Jesus said, "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's" Do you think that Caesar (not a godly man) used the money for good things? Probably not! But Jesus still paid taxes to him.

By the way... I think the "tea parties" are GREAT! This is what made America great. Common everyday people demanding that they be heard.

Do you really think that the Boston Tea Party was a good thing? It appears to be rebellion. I'm not saying we shoulds go along and do the ungodly things, but again, Jesus paid taxes to an ungodly government.

I may draw some flack for asking this, but I think this question bears asking. Do you think these tea parties are biblical and have the spirit of Christ behind them?

There is a major difference between our times and then. Rome was an occupying force in Judea. They ruled with an oppressive military hand. You didn't protest their occupation unless you wanted to lose your head. Thankfully, we live in a country where this is not the case, and indeed, our very founding documents encourage us to publicly air our grievances with the government in a civil and peaceful manner.

We can do such, and still render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's. If you are in the position to do so, do you not express concerns about how to better run whatever company you may work for? If you are involved in a local club of some sort, do you not express concerns about how to better run the organization?

If we can express our grievances in these contexts, then why not express them in a government such as ours? After all, our government is "by the people, for the people, and of the people." Our elected officials need our feedback on a regular basis, and not simply on election day. If they "represent" us, then we need to express what we think on a given issue so that they can vote accordingly.

These things are not contrary to kingdom principles. It's simply part of being "in the world." Though, we must never be of it.

Hey KingJimmy

I don't take part in things that pertain to politics or the government. I have my reasons for that but its is a whole other thread:-) I just wanted to say I really enjoyed your pictures and thanks for sharing them.Looks like it was a lovely day there. We are finally getting sunshine here:-)

Have a great day
Your little sis in Him

"Murmurings and disputings" is about cancerous and abusive speech that is done under one's breath. It is not the expression of disagreements on opinions and issues of policy.

Jesus told us to render to Caeser what is Caeser's, but he never told us we had to enjoy doing so.

I'm with Krispy on this one.

It is a mischaracterization of those here to say we are protesting the paying of taxes. No one here takes such a position. What the Tea Parties sought to do is to send a message to our elected representatives that we don't want to pay more taxes than we have to, and that we don't want them to wastefully spend our money on things we don't approve of. Such is not a spirit of rebellion, nor if done in the right spirit is it "murmurings."

Appolus, I believe you are misreading what is going on in all of this.

Bro. Frank,

You are misinterpreting what Christ said, and thus misinterpreting my stance and that of others. Nobody is questioning whether or not we should render to Caesar's what is Caesar's. We most certainly should. But being that we don't live under a dictatorship, and in a government that encourages its citizens to participate in its decisions, and to offer opinions as to what it should do, that is all we are doing.

We are simply saying, yes, we will pay taxes. But if we are allowed a legitimate voice to say what those rates will be, Jesus and the Jews were not allowed, we are, then we would be poor stewards of God's money too simply quiet our voices and allow the government to do whatever they wanted to do with God's money.

Be careful not to practice eisegesis, that is, reading one's interpretation of a passage into a Scripture. The passages you have cited thus far have only said we ARE to pay taxes, and nothing more. I appreciate your heartfelt sincerity on this issue and welcome any insights you may have. But brother, in my opinion, you are not rightly handling the Scriptures in what you have cited thus far.

By the way, Jesus didn't like having to pay taxes either. :-)

Hi appolus,

I think I speak for Jimmy and myself when I say that we both do both pay taxes, therefore, still fulfilling the command to render unto Caeser what it is Caesar's. And, we are still submitting to our government obeying its laws per Romans 13.

However, as Jimmy noted, it is nowhere forbidden in the Scriptures to peacefully seek that the government change its practices. In fact, it is in the first Amendment to the U.S. Constitution that the people have the right to petition the government for a "redress of grievances". That is exactly what the tea partys are. A petition to the government for the redress of the grievance of unjust spending habits and thus, unjust taxation. We are completely obeying our government in exercising this right that has been granted to us by the Constitution, which is the supreme civil law in the land of these United States. So, in summary, it is perfectly acceptable to petition the government. It is legal, and it is peaceful.

Secondly, the current economic system, in my understanding, is sinful. It is a breach of God's commandment not to steal. How do I come to this conclusion? Inflation. For instance, say I work and save $10,000 and place it in a savings account. When I go to retrieve that $10,000 in 30 years, does it have the same purchasing power that it had when I put it in? No, it doesn't. The government has overspent, and participated in inflationary practices such as bailouts, thus driving the purchasing power of our money down. It is a hidden theft from the American people.

Thus, we petition the government to redress this greviance by adopting sound economic policies, as is our Constitutional right. And, we petition them to turn from this sinful method of stealing the earned money of the American people.

With care in Christ,
Taylor

Thanks for the response, brother.

The bottom line is, I don't have to come up with an example in the New Testament of someone who peaceably tried to change the government's practices by petition, just as I don't have to prove that someone in the New Testament wore socks. In our daily lives, we have the freedom to act within the freedom granted by the moral law of God. And, since God nowhere forbids the peaceful petition of a government, neither can man forbid it. It is a matter of Christian liberty. The burden of proof is on those who feel we are out of line to prove that it is specifically forbidden in the Scriptures to peacefully petition the government, and, in my opinion, this is something they cannot do.

No doctrine has been created. In Romans 13, we are told to obey our leaders. The writers of our Constitution specifically told us we had the right to petition the government for a redress of grievances, therefore, we are perfectly within the law of God to exercise this right. We are still obeying the government.

Being "not of this world" does not mean withdrawing from worldly affairs or not being concerned about the "kingdom of man". It means that our minds are renewed, we do not think in a worldly way, and we do not live in a worldly way. We strive to promote truth, justice, and righteousness in the world and we do so using the lawful, peaceful means we have available.

With care in Christ,
Taylor

If God is in control of all things, and He is allowing this "taxation" to happen, and we join others in physically "protesting" this "taxation" are we not actually "protesting" against our Lord?

And if others that we have enjoined ourselves to turn to violence, are we not also participating in that violence simply by the fact that we have chosen to identify ourselves with them?

Are we not rather commanded to pray?

[i]If God is in control of all things, and He is allowing this "taxation" to happen, and we join others in physically "protesting" this "taxation" are we not actually "protesting" against our Lord?[/i]

Of course God is in control of all things. However, using this kind of logic you present, we would be "protesting against our Lord" by protesting against abortion.

[i]And if others that we have enjoined ourselves to turn to violence, are we not also participating in that violence simply by the fact that we have chosen to identify ourselves with them?[/i]

If others turn to violence, we can refrain from participating. But, as a movement in general, the tea parties were non-violent.

[i]Are we not rather commanded to pray?[/i]

We are commanded to pray. But, we are not command to pray to the exclusion of other efforts to promote justice and righteousness in the land. Notice the command given to the Jews in exile in Jeremiah 29:7 - [i]But seek the welfare of the city where I have sent you into exile, and pray to the LORD on its behalf, for in its welfare you will find your welfare.[/i]. We are to pray for the land we live in, however, we are also to actively seek its welfare. We do this by promoting truth, righteousness, and justice. Or, by promoting the moral law of God.

With care in Christ,
Taylor

First, we have to make a distinction between the historical Boston Tea Party and the tea parties that took place on the 15th. The Boston Tea Party involved the destruction of property that was not rightfully owned by those who destroyed it. That was wrong. There were better ways to protest. However, the tea parties on the 15th were completely peaceful and within Constitutional boundaries. I fail to see how it is a spot on someones Christian testimony to be actively engaged in the civic process of the United States.

The point still remains, the burden of proof is on those who rebuke those who attend the tea parties to prove from the Scripture that such peaceful behavior is prohibited. If that cannot be shown, it is simply a matter of Christian liberty. I'm seeing a lot of people's opinion as to what was proper Christian behavior on the 15th, however it must be shown that God forbids a peaceful petition.

With care in Christ,
Taylor

[b]2 Corinthians 6[/b]

1We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

2(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

3Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed:

4But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses,

5In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings;

6By pureness, by knowledge, by long suffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned,

7By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,

8By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true;

9As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed;

10As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things.

11O ye Corinthians, our mouth is open unto you, our heart is enlarged.

12Ye are not straitened in us, but ye are straitened in your own bowels.

13Now for a recompence in the same, (I speak as unto my children,) be ye also enlarged.

14Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

15And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

16And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

17Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

18And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

[b]Isaiah 55:8[/b]

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

If God is in control of all things, and He is allowing this "taxation" to happen, and we join others in physically "protesting" this "taxation" are we not actually "protesting" against our Lord?

This statement has had me thinking quite a bit. In A.W. Pink's The Sovreignty of God, he talks about how when we complain about the weather, we are essentially complaining against God.

Now, when we say that God is sovreign, we mean that God is in control of everything. Nothing is out of his control. So, it then leads to the question, does God "do" evil. We would think of a tornado that destroys a town and kills many as "evil" or "bad", but with God being sovreign, I would say that it is a means for God to glorify himself. Hundreds might die, but are there any spared? Does God show his mercy on the town? Regardless, He is still just and sovreign in all He does or permits.

But then we come to the issue of "free will". When I sin, is it me making the decision for myself, or is it God making me make the decision? After all, if I really have the ability to do anything on my own and God not have control over the situation, would mean that God is not sovreign. But, what if it isn't either of the options. What if it is God permitting me to make the decision. Me, in my fallen state, will make wrong decisions. But won't God glorify himself through me even more when I am redeemed of the sins I've commited?

I would say that if we confess that God is sovreign and to complain about something means we are complaining against God, doesn't this mean that anything we ask God for is really complaining to God about God? I mean, how many of us have asked God for anything? I know I have prayed that sick would be healed. Shouldn't I rather just tell someone, "stop complaining, be thankful for what you have"? This goes against scripture. We are told in Philippians to make our requests known to God through prayer.

If God answers our prayers, AWESOME! Praise Him! If he doesn't, AWESOME! Praise Him! It doesn't make Him any less. He is still God.

Yes, as Christians we should adhere to Romans 13. God has ordained every ruler. We know that not all rulers are even God fearing people. But they are there nonetheless. God will glorify Himself through all things. The early Christians are a perfect example of this. They were persecuted and murdered for their faith. This day is coming for us, saints.

The difference between the early church and us today is that we live in a system that allows us to peacefully protest our government. We are able to be obedient to scripture but still stand up and say, "this is wrong" (no matter the issue).

I agree that Christ should be our first priority. He is all there is. Everything else is loss. But weren't the Israelites told to settle in Jeremiah? They were to plant crops, have children, build homes. They had not entered the promised land, but they still had to survive (in their case many, many generations) to get to that point. We are not to be "of the world" but we do live "in the world".

I do agree that you have to be careful when dealing with philosophies of man and scripture. At the same time, you also need to consider if your understanding of scripture is accurate. It is important to look at the context of what is written, who it was written to and then you can determine how it applies to us today.

I do know that when we all get to Heaven, we will all realise how foolish we were. But God's grace will cover all.

In Him,
Ben

PS - This was not directed at anyone specifically. This is merely me 'talking' through some of the issues that have been raised.

EDIT: An additional thought regarding the quote above - This is a site that is trying to promote Biblical Revival. Now, maybe I'm off track, but I would say that in order for revival to occur, we need reformation in the church.

Now, based on the quote above, would it be considered 'complaining' against God to desire reform within the church, or even a revival in the first place. I mean, if revival isn't occuring, God obviously has it that way for a reason. Is this then something we should not desire?

Hi Taylor, you keep talking about Scriptures while ignoring the ones given. Jesus put it to rest. If you want to add something to it , then lets have it, or lets have another Scripture that would back up what you say.

Appolus,

That is because the Scriptures that have been given have nothing to do with a peaceful petition of the government. They have to do with obeying the government's laws, which we do. Frankly, the majority of the people on this site probably think partaking in political action is "worldly", and I understand I'm in the minority here. But, as I said, no Scripture has been produced that prohibits a peaceful petition, therefore, I do not prohibit my fellow believers from partaking in them.

Soemthing to remeber though, the poorest person in the States is richer than most other people in the world.

This is a good thought, and one that I have had before.

With care in Christ,
Taylor

I believe that I can clarify the differences on the scriptures that are being discussed here. I have a dear brother and friend from El Salvador who believes that it is wrong to participate in politics (voting, running for office, serving in government) in any way. I’ve tried to explain to him that the dirty political systems of Central America are very different from ours here. They have no “balance of powers” therefore, they stay poverty stricken from the greed and power abuse of the leaders.

WHAT MAKES AMERICA DIFFERENT?

Brother APPOLUS, if you are a citizen of the United States of America, you may very well read Mark 12:17 as: “Render to APPOLUS the things that are APPOLUS’, and to God the things that are God's.”

In reading the scripture, each one of us (some in different countries) realize that it is not Caesar that we are currently dealing with. We have to put another name there, because we don’t have Caesar here today. You are obviously replacing the word Caesar with “the United States Government”. [Unless you are sending your tax money to Italy, in an effort to honor Ceasar's descendants]

YOU are a very important part of the United States government! You are a very important part of the law making part of the government that you pay taxes to.

If you are a citizen of this country you have the heavy responsibility of making the decisions here!

To put it more simply: Suppose Appolus, KrispyKrittr, and KingJimmy were the ONLY 3 citizens of this country, and KingJimmy were the elected enforcer of the laws. As the enforcer, KingJimmy could only enforce the laws that the three of you made. If you, Appolus (in effect 1/3 king) decide to shut your mouth and have no input in laws being made, then KrispyKrittr, and KingJimmy will be making all of the laws for you to live by, and you will go on simply submitting to their laws. On the other hand, if you exercise your noble responsibility and voice your thoughts and vote, you can change the laws that you have to live by.

I am not trying to rewrite, nor tamper with God’s sacred word here, but we HAVE TO ask: “who is the ruler here?” and we have to put his name in that place in the scripture in order to obey it. Whether we shirk our responsibility as rulers in this country or not, WE ARE WHAT WE ARE, because the laws of our government have made us such:

Romans 13:3 For APPOLUS is not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4 For APPOLUS is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for APPOLUS is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: APPOLUS is God's minister, attending continually upon this very thing.
7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

We can point our fingers and talk about all of the bad things that “our government” is doing, but the guilt falls equally on us. We have been given specific guidelines about how we are to influence the laws of our land (as has been stated in other posts on this thread).

If Appolus remains silent, then KrispyKrittr, and KingJimmy will make the rules. KingJimmy will enforce them, but we will all live by them. Although we are many millions more than just the three . . . this is how it is. IN REALITY, there are ONLY FOUR simple groups ruling this country:

Real Christians who remain silent.
Real Christians who exercise their noble responsibilities,
Sinners who remain silent, and
Sinners who exercise their noble responsibilities.

Those who remain silent are in full authority to participate in governing this country, but they choose not to exercise that authority . . . like a parent who has full authority to discipline his child, but chooses not to . . . to the ruin of the child.

We are at a pivotal moment in history with this government, however. If we act on our citizen noble responsibilities, we might be able to keep it from becoming a government ruled by a dictator like Ceasar. If we remain silent . . . . . . . .but how in all good conscience can we do so?

Can you show me where one could find any example in the NT where anyone tried in any way to "change government"?

Jesus in no way condemned this widow woman who exercised her privilege to petition the government. He used her as an example of DOING SOMETHING GOOD:

Luke 18:1 And he spake a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to pray, and not to faint;
2 Saying, There was in a city a judge, which feared not God, neither regarded man:
3 And there was a widow in that city; and she came unto him, saying, Avenge me of mine adversary.
4 And he would not for a while: but afterward he said within himself, Though I fear not God, nor regard man;
5 Yet because this widow troubleth me, I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me.
6 And the Lord said, Hear what the unjust judge saith.
7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

I would think that those who don’t believe in peacefully petitioning the government could not in all good conscience hire a lawyer to defend their innocence if they were falsely accused of a crime . . . or if (may it NEVER happen), they are betrayed by a spouse and desire custody of their children.

If we are spending more time peacefully petitioning our government than we are aggressively agonizingly petitioning our Heavenly Father, we are actively demonstrating which government we have more faith in.

Personally, I feel so lacking in time spent in prayer before God's throne for the horrible condition of the world that we live in . . . I have very litte time for political activity. I hope that I will not be counted an unwise steward of my time when I give account for my life before God.

Bro Frank,

I'm sorry, I don't understand your logic. It simply does not make sense to me. Perhaps I have misunderstood you, but the way I read your post is that you say it is ok for us as Christians to vote, but it is not ok for us to petition the government and give them our opinion on a matter? Outside of the "official" nature of voting, in essence, how are the two any different? Both involve participation in the political arena. Both are means of giving the government one's opinion on things. If you are grieved over whoever is in office now, you can cast your lot for somebody else. How is this different than being grieved over decisions being made by our elected officials, and telling them what your lot is cast for?

Well, I think this thread has just about run it's course. I think I've said much of what I hoped to say on the topic (though originally, I was just hoping to post my pics from the event, not start a discussion).

Though it has been fruitful discussion I believe, I feel a little saddened that this topic took off much more than a little thread I posted on the resurrection of Jesus Christ a few days prior. I'm not big into politics and don't get too caught up in them. Personally, I absorb most of my time thinking on the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and prefer to do things to further the gospel. Because we are "in this world" politics is something we as Christians must deal with. Let us never become more passionate and interested in the world and its workings over that of the workings of God, and the amazing grace that is available to all of us who believe.

Just so you know...

The recent "tea parties" were not a group of Americans voicing an opposition to taxes, but a group of Americans who are opposed to [i]increased[/i] taxes and taxes spent for questionable ideals (like US funding for abortions in foreign lands).

This nation is very different than Caesar's Rome. Rome was an Empire where Caesar sat as the King. The United States has no king. It has a government "[i]of the people, for the people and by the people[/i]" -- a government of CONSENT. If you sift through the writings of the founders of the nation, this "consent" was a very central to the founder's idea of government. There was no longer a "divine right of kings" or a class of nobles. Rather, the regular people could actually serve as governors, senators, representatives, judges and presidents -- elected by peers.

We certainly have a Scriptural mandate to pay our taxes. However, this nation still gives us the opportunity to voice our concern in any issues. The concern of many is that the newly elected government from an ideology that supposedly protects personal liberty is now labeling ministers as potential terrorists for publicly voicing opposition to the new administration's agenda. While we should expect the people of this world to oppose the causes of righteousness (John the Baptist was beheaded, after all, for pointing out Herod's sinful marriage), but we should not expect a nation of consent (of elected fellow citizens in this temporary country) to mock and ridicule those with whom them disagree.

I didn't attend one of the "tea parties." In fact, I had not even HEARD of the tea party until the day they began. The first headline that I read was from CNN and MSNBC reporters actually mocking the rallies. They called it a "hate" rally. One television personality even ignorantly called it a "racist" event. One television reporter even noted all of the "Christians" at the rally and equated them as "far right wing extremists" because of the Bible verses on their posters and shirts.

What a time that we live in! We live in a day when the unrighteous boldly parade their SIN and then point to the righteous as "evil!" In this day and age, Isaiah 5:20 is becoming so real.

We are ripe for a revival.

:-(

Hi Frank...

appolus wrote:
Hi Chrisssssss, check out the comments. We have been through the whole thing.Not sure that there is much more to add. I think if you are checking the replies, look for the one's that talk about Christians and non-Christians joining together for common purposes.........Frank

Still, these were my comments and feelings that I shared. I apologize if they are repetitive with what you or others may have written.

The Lord bless you!

Today we had an International Prayer conference with brothers and sisters from the States and from Britian. We were small in number yet rich in the Spirit of God. People will flock to rallies where self-interests are represented and fear and paranoi are the order of the day, I wish people would flock to prayer meetings and petition the Lord our most High God who is High and lifted up.

Who had an International Prayer Conference? And where? Was it announced, or did I miss the announcement?

You are SO RIGHT brother that Christians can be gathered together so quickly for petitioning the Government, but generally will not gather together to petition the Creator of the universe!!!

I like the confidence that Brother Kieth Daniel from South Africa spoke with regarding this nation and its problems in his [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/myvideo/photo.php?lid=829]Warning to America[/url] . . . He said something like "you could have it all turned around in a matter of a couple of months if you would just pray . . ."

The "tea parties" were well announced in every place, and well attended.

How did such an effort get rallied in every town? Who was the trumpet blaster that rallied the concerned people together?

Can such a thing be done as was described in Brother Orr's [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=18527&commentView=itemComments]The Role of Prayer in Spiritual Awakening[/url] where an appeal goes out for all concerned Christians to meet every first Monday for prayer?

Every Saturday our mission has an "international" prayer meeting (Mexicans and Americans - usually only 5 or 6 of us there). Recently I discussed with the pastor of the West Monroe Church of God my desires for prayer meetings, so every first Friday of each month, two hispanic churches along with that American church will be meeting there for prayer. If you are in Northeast LA near West Monroe, you are welcomed to join us in petitioning God for a manifestation of His glory in convicting sinners of their sin, and awakening lives to the glory of God.

Who could sound such an alarm? Who could rally the troops? Shall we just assume Christians don't want to come together to petition God? Has anyone made the announcement or the invitation?

THANKS!

We have church services every Tuesday night, and prayer meetings on Saturday nights. There have been times when (if I didn't have people to take home) I have listened in some on the conference call prayer meeting after our services.

When you wrote "International Prayer Conference" I thought you were referring to people being "with one accord in one place" which is of course what the Revival Conference accomplishes for those who can go.

However it happens, THANK GOD for the prayers of the saints! Those prayers are so precious to God that they are being kept in special vials near His throne Rev 5:8.

It should be noted for historical context the main reason the Jews were troubled over paying taxes was because the coinage in that day had Caesar's image on it. Being that Caesar was treated literally as being a god, the coinage was looked at by the Jews as idolatrous in nature. This, also in part, is why the money changers existed in the temple. The Jews wanted any money given to the temple treasury to be free from idolatrous contamination. Thus, the money changers would exchange currency for these purposes.

Just some further thoughts :-)

Perhaps it was a little much to get into some of the things we did. My original intent was just to simply share pictures of the event because I noticed that the event wasn't posted in the News items. But, I'm never opposed to spontaneous discussions starting up over anything. It is my belief that theology is life and life is theology.

If a possible edifying theological discussion can occur as a result of just taking some pictures, then I'm good with that. How's the saying go? A picture is worth a 1,000 words. I'm ok with that :-) Somebody I know through work was impressed with some of the photos I took, and wants to use one or two of them for an article he plans on writing. It wasn't my intent to ever be "published" by somebody else, but it looks like that just might happen as well. Which is pretty cool in my opinion, as I do have an admiration for photography as an art and as a form of journalism. I've read a little on the subject, and have a pretty good quality digital camera, a Canon PowerShot is5. It's not quite the DSLR level of camera, but it isn't half bad either.

Had taken down a whole reply earlier ...

There is really nothing wrong with this - From the inception to the outcome. It is expected and encouraged that some discussion would ensue and it has been handled maturely.

Not to slight anyone here just some perspective and observance. I do think [i]where the scriptures are silent[/i] comes very much into play and if I may, to ponder the quote that is my signature at bottom.

Am pretty much unbiased and ambivalent to the matter - We are still fortunate to be afforded the rights we do have, where others do not. That including the right to do what we are doing just here - Giving our opinions.

I also wonder at the trade offs we can give to certain subject matter and force the issue in a manner of [i]We ought to be doing[/i] _____ thus and so. If it's not your ... cup of tea (pun intended), again reference the quote mentioned below.

What also came to mind is how, if we are to use the negative connotations and applications of what is warranted\\disallowed on this subject matter ... how does the same approach apply to say the abolishment of slavery? Did we not have some very good ministers throw their weight behind this? The civil rights movement ... Careful how I broach this, the emphasis is on [i]approach[/i] and deriving scripture to support the stance(s)- Not the apple to oranges comparisons of subject matter.

Interestingly, even KJ being the originator, innocently enough, showed some sadness that this took off as it did while a post on the resurrection of the Lord did not. I am not sure this is a very good comparison however. It [i]may[/i] indeed be for some a challenge of their priorities -loyalties but in general a larger response to a current event shouldn't be surprising. In fact I recall the post well enough, some things are stated so well they are difficult to respond to ... Just as well, I did happen upon something related yesterday that was on mind to add to it after all.

Another perspective is just one of the grass roots mentality that at least shows some life blood in organizing the ... fed-up-ness to coin a phrase, that just didn't bubble up out of thin air. This has it's orgins in 'protest' going back to the bailout's even of last year. Will skirt the more political aspects of it all but would appeal to what is largely a sort of silent ... minority(?) of the hardworking folks that keep this economy rolling on day in and day out. Rarely do we hear from them in this sort of fashion, most keep to themselves and go about their work. Others who are now in the unfortunate position of being out of work, what do they do, by and large ...? Sit and wallow? I would suppose the greater majority of even those who were protesting last week will be hard at work this week seeking [i]work[/i] if they are out of it or hard at work as is the norm that are employeed. Of course the abuses and those who will expect the Gov. to 'take care of them' but I do not believe half as much of the rhetoric is actual nor factual that Americans are not some of the most industrious, innovative and hard working people on the planet. Patriotic? Or just ... truth? There used to be something known as the "Protestant work ethic" it may lay dormant in the vehnacular but it is still in the water and the genes even if and by assimilation.

The whole realm of 'nominal' believers is fodder for another thread, but my observance is still that the extremities get the attention and where 'we' of a serious Christian mind tend to see what we want to see and often propose "God's judgment" upon "America" for the antics of the same styled 'protester's' who are better organized and are constantly more vocal for getting their peculiar 'rights' assessed upon everyone. Even when they are just a fraction of the population. It is difficult not to recall;

Gen 18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

My premise is that the picture is skewered, not that we have an overwhelming abundance of righteous Christians inhabiting the country. Just some, just enough perhaps. I felt compelled to offer this as it came my way elsewhere and does tie into a lot of the 'air' that is being fostered of "Judgment" that is what we are either experiencing or expecting.

As an aside to the recent 'complaint' vocalized in this situation, which I find no problem with, in fact it does throw a bit of argument on the idea that Americans are going to just lay down and take the proposed/suggested/speculative idea of 'socialism' without a fight.

Thankful. Thankful to live here. Thankful everyday for all the blessings we have, it is often guilt inducing to reflect that while I have so much in the simplest of things others do not even have shoes to wear on their feet - Or food, or shelter, or any of the myriad of things we so often take for granted.

In a nut shell, we are predominantly a nation of plumbers - we put in the plumbing and fix the leaks - You just rarely get to hear from them.

Feel like if I don't balance this out it may get misconstrued. None of this diminishes the atrocities of abortion or the moral bankruptcy that is evident - It is not one side being pumped up over the other- Only to lend some perspective to it all. I think I have just about had it with the misconstruing of data/facts/information to support things that have no basis in truth. It is very much the reason for the post on gullibility and critical thinking and the challenging of our many, many 'prophets' in whatever guise of delusion they labor under. It's just not right to mislead, misconstrue - It goes to the very heart of what [i]we[/i] as Christians are supposed to [i]be[/i] and far over what we pontificate on.

Off on a tangent I suppose and just some random food for thought.

One last piece of curiosity, one section of scripture that has challenged me for years and years and that I would offer to what this subject matter boils down to, namely money. Just to let it stand alone, without comment, but if it is not applicable in principle if not beyond;

Luk 16:8 And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.

I do intend to mean the whole context of this.

I can see both sides of this discussion, and on one hand we are citizens of another kingdom so our faith in not in any political system but on the other hand, we are called to be salt and light in this world and to speak out against unrighteousness and injustice.

We are blessed to be connected with intercessors that pray for government. We have seen a wonderful change in the state of Louisiana. as a result of the prayers of the saints. We now have a governor that is born again that put into effect major ethics reforms within the state. Louisiana was once known for its corrupt leaders and politicians, but is now being recognized for the many changes that are taking place under the current administration.

There are prayer meetings that take place in the state capitol, and there are members of both the state house and senate that attend some of the meetings that are being held throughout the state.

Tony Perkins is from Louisiana, and he has sent out an important prayer request to the intercessors throughout the nation.

Dear Friends,

I received a special request from Tony today, asking that I contact you to help enlist the nation's intercessors to make this an urgent prayer focus. Here is Tony's note:
Friends,

While I am passionate about our mission to advance faith, family and freedom, I am experiencing a deep stirring within my spirit over the Sebelius nomination that does not come often. I think this nomination will move our nation toward yet another immoral milestone. We've had pro-abortion politicians and cabinet members who have had no regard for the unborn before, but Sebelius takes it to a new level. This is a woman who has literally advanced, if not built, her political career with blood money, money that came directly from George Tiller's abortion clinic.

What makes this different from almost every other pro-abortion politician is that her alliance with the abortion industry is with the darkest side of abortion. George Tiller is a late term abortionist that specializes in destroying the lives of babies in the second and third trimesters. These are healthy babies, most of whom could actually survive outside the womb, at the point he performs his destructive acts.

It is clear why Sebelius initially tried to hide this direct connection to Tiller's clinic when she failed to report this information to the U.S. Senate. This connection to Tiller is even outside the mainstream of the Democratic Party. This is the second time Sebelius' integrity has been called into question, the first time when it was revealed that she had not paid all of her taxes.

Now that her ties with the darkest side of the abortion industry are known, if she is successful in her bid to head up HHS, the largest federal agency, which oversees the nation's health care system, it will send a very clear message to politicians - you can align yourself with the abortion industry without personal or political consequence.

This sets a new level that our nation will have sunken to.

We need to pray specifically that her nomination will be aborted - that either she or the Obama Administration will withdraw her name or the Senate will refuse to confirm her.

Right now neither looks possible, but we know that with God all things are possible.

Prayer Points:
Pray for Senator Sam Brownback, who is presently supporting Sebelius for political purposes, will have a change of heart and announce his opposition to her nomination.
Pray for the resources we need for FRC to educate the public on just how radical Sebelius' alliances with the abortion industry really are.
Pray that Senators will begin to question the integrity of Sebelius and her alliance.
Thank you

Tony
Please hear Tony's heart. Thank you for any help you can give him to reach God's intercessors across America

Tony will be on the ground in Kansas for the next two days, praying, preaching and working to draw national attention to this sordid matter.

Please be in earnest intercession for Tony during the next 36 hours. The spiritual principalities and strong holds related to abortion are strong. Tony and everyone you know who is involved in this sphere has encountered strong spiritual opposition when confronting these powers. Pray for God's favor as Tony speaks - for receptive ears - for protection for Tony and his family - and for the FRC staff on the ground with him. Pray that there will be a major breakthrough.

If you have any questions, feel free to call me (see contact info. below).

God bless,

Pierre Bynum

P.S. The attached Prayer Alert went to our prayer team on Friday. Please feel free to pass this on to your trusted prayer warriors. The attached Alert is posted on the Web at http://www.frc.org/prayerteam/urgent-prayer-alert---special-prayer-needed---kathleen-sebelius.

Rev. Pierre Bynum
Chaplain & National Prayer Director
Regional Director for Church Ministries

King Jimmy,

Great pics! Thanks for sharing them! There was nearly 2000 that showed up here in Colorado Springs.

All I can say to what [I] feel is pure ignorance on this thread is that, although I did not vote for Obama, he is now employed by me. Since he is my employee, I have the freedom and authority by the governance of Scripture and United States law, to voice my concerns.

To be told that I or anyone else has no Scriptural backing to do so is living in falicy.

Voicing my concern to my employees - Pres. Obama and the whole government, does not, in the slightest, diminish my walk with Christ.

crsschk - great points! I think you were right on!

:-D

those politicians and those who support them who say that they are a follower of Christ, yet engage in all of the heinous activities that go against God just to get elected. These are those who use Christ for votes and influence yet live differently than anything they espouse.

I was going to stay out of this discussion but this statement challenges my resolve...on the other hand this may be all I will say, who knows, being a woman and one who can easily change her mind! :-)

My comment: politically, Mississippi is conservative. The politicians use 'religion' to appeal to the religious folks in the state. And they are good at it, I promise. The late governor Kirk Fordice was very good at it. So was Congressman Chip Pickering - he served as a missionary in Hungary as a young man and so on...these guys espouse 'family values' only to violate them in the worst way. (By the grace of God Fordice had reconciled with his wife before his death.) If it repulses me I wonder how God feels - I know what he thinks but I wonder how much longer can this go on before they trigger his anger?

From observing Mississippian politicians one can easily see how they will use whatever it takes to get elected and in this state it is 'religion - God' and family values. So, then in voting for them are we becoming an enabler in their continuing sin? Oh, I forgot - most are Calvinists who believe in OSAS... :-(

ginnyrose

Regarding such matters, we should take into account the full counsel of God and move according to the direction of the Holy Spirit. Some will be called to pray, others to action--doing all things in the spirit of love, for we are ambassadors for Christ in this fallen world. We once were as they are: lost and without hope in the world, until we heard the Good News--let us not become arrogant or boastful.

This nation was never designed to be run by the government, but it is to be run by the people; the government is our servant; the will of the people must be made known, and the voice of reason must be heard while we still have the freedom to declare our position.

This nation is a gift to us from God: He is our King, and it is in His name that we place our trust. We are called to take an active role as regards the direction of our great nation, first and foremost as Christians (aka citizens of heaven), but as Americans second.

Paul never renounced his Roman citizenship, nor should we renounce ours as Americans. The blood of our forefathers cries out to preserve our freedom, that we might speak truth freely and openly in love. Blood bought our freedom in Christ Jesus, and blood bought our freedom in this great nation. We are in the world, not of it; indeed, we must conduct ourselves wisely, redeeming the time.

I have seen firsthand the effects of socialism and communism; both crush and diminish the human spirit--these are evil systems. This nation allows the fullest freedom of the human spirit--and yes, that can be abused, and has been--but for the sake of openness to spreading the gospel, we should wish to preserve and hold dear all that was bought for us with precious blood!!

I adjure you to do a refresher in reviewing the documents that we as Americans hold dear: The Constitution, the Bill of Rights, the Declaration of Independence.

US Bill of Rights
Amendment 1
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

May we conduct ourselves in wisdom and godliness.
Grace and peace to all.

Great points Run2Win! Now only if Apolus would get this!

"Paul never renounced his Roman citizenship, nor should we renounce ours as Americans."

Christ is King. He is ultimately to whom we live and stand for. In the midst of our lives spent for Christ, we too have every right and freedom under God AND U.S. law to voice our concern, opinion, and reason. After all, as you said Run2Win... "This nation was never designed to be run by the government, but it is to be run by the people; the government is our servant; the will of the people must be made known, and the voice of reason must be heard while we still have the freedom to declare our position." which is quite different then Caesar's days.

Apparently Apolus is still under Caesar's rule... ?
:-( :-?

Acts 25:12
Then Festus, when he had conferred with the council, answered, Hast thou appealed unto Caesar? unto Caesar shalt thou go.

Acts 25:21
But when Paul had appealed to be reserved unto the hearing of Augustus, I commanded him to be kept till I might send him to Caesar.

Acts 25:25
But when I found that he had committed nothing worthy of death, and that he himself hath appealed to Augustus, I have determined to send him.

Acts 26:32
Then said Agrippa unto Festus, This man might have been set at liberty, [i][b][u]if[/u][/b][/i] he had not appealed unto Caesar.

Haha... preach it Krispy and Nathan.

Well said, the both of you!

Hi everyone.

I think that the passages that Heartsong shared are relavant, but could also give us an opporunity to consider this in a larger context.

Before this, in Acts chapter 19(EDIT: see Acts 19:21), it seems as that Paul had purposed and was being led by God to go to Rome. And later the Lord Himself told Paul how he would go there(Acts 23:11).

Did he then purposely appeal to Ceasar so that he could go there? Maybe not(Acts 28:19).

Did all of these events, his own prayers and the prayers of the saints(Rom 15:30-33), the plot by his own countrymen against him(Acts 23:12-16), the shipwreck(Acts 27:21-26), and all else, did these things work to bring him to where God had intended him to go?

I think that if we may be willing to say that God has been pleased to raise a wicked governement to chastise us, we could also be willing to say that God had granted a form of governement that gave its citizens a voice in its formation and future and direction.

The Lord Jesus said that to whom much is given, much would be required, and that it is nescessary of us, to be wise as serpents and harmless as doves.

Hi appolus…

I know that a couple of brothers are praying for an end to this thread, but I just wanted to address a couple of things before it goes.

So brother, if you want to thrash around in the world, then that is your walk and you answer to Him, not to me. I will not be entangled in the things of the world.

I am happy that you maintain that you are not “entangled in the world” (although I personally believe that you misunderstand what is being said in that particular passage…and that you may be more involved in government than you might recognize). However, I am seriously disappointed that you freely speak such rhetoric in a manner as if the rest of us are somehow spiritually inferior for not feeling the same as you do. I am quite confident that you don’t mean to come across this way. Yet this is how I feel in nearly every post that you speak in regard to this sort of issue. You might even feel that God has led you to such a position. Please understand that the rest of us feel the same way.

Disclaimer: I didn’t get involved with these “tea parties.” In fact, I didn’t even know about them until they were already taking place. Yet I agree with the notion that a government of consent should be accountable in matters of taxation (especially if an administration wants to spend our tax dollars to murder countless unborn children overseas). These rallies were simply a gathering of voices. They were non-violent. They didn’t hurl accusations at government officials; rather, they simply were citizens telling other citizens what they felt about such issues.

Tony Perkins repeated on Sunday the oft repeated statistic. One third of Americans claim to be born-again. If, in this coming year, every one of those 100 million people brought one person to Christ, one person, let me repeat, one person, then 100 million people would be saved in the most overwhelming revival the world has ever seen. Not only would the country be radically changed overnight with crime and abortion and Homosexuality and murder being slashed to an unbeleivably small number, but the world would be enourmously transformed as the vast resources of this great nation was turned towards the purposes of God. And all this brother, and all of this, by bringing one person to the Lord, each and every one of us.

During college, I attended a wonderful Christian student organization. We were very visible on our college campus. We held many evangelical outreaches and we were having a wonderful move of God on our campus. We even financially supported several missionaries! In order to support the mission on the campus and send donations to missionaries, we would accept offerings and hold periodic fundraisers (like bake sales and car washes). Our car washes accepted “whatever you can afford” donations. During one of those car washes, one of the very vocal guys in our organization complained that we were accepting donations. “[i]Why does this have to be about money[/i]?” he asked. He wanted us to do the car washes for free as a ministry for the passing motorists. He explained that this is “[i]the Christian thing to do[/i].” We explained to him that the purpose of this car wash was to raise funds for missionaries by working hard. I told him that he could feel free to organize a free car wash at anytime…and that he could announce it and ask for volunteers. This was not good enough for him. He left in a puff of what he felt to be “righteous indignation” (he told people this). We had our car wash and earned funds for some missionaries. Ironically, this loud, young man never held one of those “free” car washes.

Why am I saying this? Our opinions may differ even though we believe in similar ends. This young man went around and caused quite a bit of problems because he incorrectly believed and told others that we were “entangled in the affairs of this world” and that we cared “more about money that souls.” He was wrong. He didn’t know that we held to the same core goals that he did – the salvation of souls in this lost and dying world. He continued to hurl his accusations about the rest of us to anyone who would listen to his complaints. He didn’t realize that he was actually bearing false witness by claiming such things. In fact, his comments got out to others around the campus. He acted as though he was doing God a favor by speaking his words to other believers. Yet he never understood that we were wholeheartedly and prayerfully trying to win the lost on our campus and elsewhere.

Now, you really want to change the world? Let us all get on our knees and cry out to the living God for forgiveness…

… forgiveness for the luke-warmness that leads people to be cynical about what [b][u]I[/u] have just said.[/b]

I just hope that you realize that those of us who disagree with you still hold to the same truths that you do. We are seeking Christ with true spiritual hunger. We spend time with Him in prayer and worship as we seek His face. We hunger to see a move of God in this fallen world and in a church that seems to have fallen asleep. We long for Christ more than anything this world has to offer. In my case, I just feel (through much prayer and study of God’s Word) that I have an opportunity to share my voice through various ways in this nation. We can disagree until the Lord returns…but I think that we need to be careful about “looking down” upon what many of us might prayerfully feel where the Lord has led us.

I do love you, brother.

Hi Chris...

This is very interesting in that I was thinking about this today. The same government that taxes us also gives us a voice in the government (through a vote, free speech opportunities, etc...). While taxes are compulsory, our voice is a matter of conscience. My heart does not condemn me in this. After much prayer and study, I feel the liberty through a clear conscience to express my views through a vote, etc...

My relationship with the Lord dictates everything that I believe and do. This is true of the "spiritual" issues...and the matters of this life. I try to share the things that I believe from my prayer and study of the things of God in every aspect of my life. A vote or an opinion are just a couple of areas for which this is true.

Thank you for your reminder.

Jeremiah 17:5-8

Thus saith the LORD;

[b][u]Cursed[/u] be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.[/b] For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, in a salt land and not inhabited.

[b][u]Blessed[/u] is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is.[/b] For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit.

Hi HeartSong...

Not trying to read too much into these passages, but are they directed here for a reason? I just want to remind you that those of us who do believe in limited involvement in things such as voting...or "tea parties" (I didn't take part in them) do trust in the Lord! To assume otherwise would be simply wrong.

Anyway, I apologize for this interjection. This is a great passage of Scripture...and I appreciate you sharing it with us. I just didn't know if there was a purpose for it...or if it is just a reminder that our faith should be on the Lord. God still uses doctors and medicine, after all, to heal the sick. The Lord certainly doesn't [i]need[/i] to use such things...but we still live in a world where even Timothy was instructed to take a little "wine" because of his stomach's sake and his frequent infirmities (I Timothy 5:23).

Is it possible that God could allow believers to use their citizenship voice (such as a vote or rally) to affect the thoughts of a government of consent which is elected from mere fellow citizens of our temporary country? After all, Paul did invoke his citizenship to avoid a flogging and to appeal unto Caesar in order to take the Gospel to Rome.

Anyway, I apologize again for the question and interjection. The Lord bless you mightily!

Hi everyone.

Chris, I really appreciate your desire that others would not judge you or others in their hearts, without knowing your heart in what you and they may do.

I was thinking about this and the story of Nehemiah came to mind. As I looked over the passages this stood out to me, how it says...

"...So I prayed to the God of heaven.

And I said unto the king..."

-from Nehemiah chapter 2 verses 4 and 5(KJV)

Was Nehemiah surprised when Artaxeres began to ask him why he looked so sad? I don't know. But he had been praying to God about His people and asked God for mercy in the sight of the king.

And then an oppportunity presented itself for him, and Nehemiah spoke, both to God, and to man.

I think that others have suggested something similar, that they may earnestly seek God for His help, but also seek justice and righteousness in the earth through lawful means.

I personally know very little about the situation in this thread, but I hope that we can all, with all sincerity, earnestly desire that whatever the other beleivers do here, that they may be able to do it with all goodness and godly sincerity, and with no offence before God or man. And that we should all pray unto the same.

Goodness and mercy be with you all.

Dear Brother Frank, and all the rest,

I have to agree that this thread has run far more than its course... but I fear that the reason can be stated with scripture with the following two cited: Matthew 7:1-5

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.

1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but† nota to doubtful disputations. 2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. 3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. 4 Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. 5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuadedb in his own mind. 6 He that regardethc the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. 7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. 8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord’s. 9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. 10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. 13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother’s way.

We are called to liberty only not to use liberty as an occasion to stumble our brother's Paul tells us.

There has been the repeated use of a couple of scriptures but there has been the violation of the above cited scriptures in the use of them. Indeed the scriptures do say what they say!

"For the word of God is living, and active, and sharper than any two-edged sword…".
It is a two edged sword… it cuts both ways.

There is exegesis and eisegesis.

Perhaps there should be more exegesis than eisegesis in judgment of the brethren… It is not improving your standing at all among brothers to take a stand that refuses to see your brother’s point when it is so very obvious, and just as equally scriptural. You have to omit the whole Old Testament and the prophets to make it unscriptural.

The history of the church, from the time of Justin Martyr,(and most of the ante-nicene fathers) through the Reformation and beyond is one of petitioning government, and often fighting government, (and it is simply an ignorant stand to say that they did not fight it in the issue of taxes, because the Church and State were the same) and in fact there would have been no reformation at all without men like Waldo, John Huss, Martin Luther, Zwingli (died with a sword in his hand), John Calvin, John Knox being involved to the degree that their conscience and the Word of God allowed in government, because the church [i]was[/i] the government for most of the period from the 4th through the 17th century.

Make your stand according to your own conscience but do not try to condemn your brothers and the whole of Christian history in the meantime!

Clint

"By much slothfulness the building decayeth; and through idleness of the hands the house droppeth through." Ecc10:18

I see in Scripture the counsel of stewardship. If we are given power to do good, and don't do it, is that not being a poor manager of what God has entrusted to us?

Were not the nations, including the United States, created by God for His glory? We are called to make Him known to all the nations. "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations..." At the present, the USA has freedom to print and distribute Bibles, to teach others about Jesus, to openly speak truth. What a gift and a blessing!

Consider this passage from Acts 17:24-28: "God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; and hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; that they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: for in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring."

I remember Keith Daniel saying that he concentrated his speaking time in the USA because it is a nation of senders. Can we not see the goodness and cherish the blessings of our land?

No doubt, the rafters are sagging, and the house could cave in any minute...who will deliver us out of this wreckage? God is able!!

At what level do we do nothing? I visited East Berlin before the wall came down; the distance of a few feet separated the captives from the free--unforgettable the difference. Do you know how many died trying to get from one side to the other?? For years after that, I prayed that God would bring the wall down. I didn't see how, but I knew He had the power to do it. And I had the burden to pray that it would be done. He made the way, as you all know--only God could do it--there is no other explanation, but the energy and zeal of human hands brought it down. I'll never forget that day.

I use this example to demonstrate that while I was praying (along with many others), God was calling others to action. It works like that, and God is glorified in all of it.

Let's stop devouring one another. I don't care if anyone considers me spiritually weak for loving my country.

BroClint and ChrisJD,

You must have been writing your posts at the same time as I. Both of you cited scripture passages that support my position on this subject. Thank you for those additions.

Our liberty is a treasure; may we use it, and all of our resources, for the glory of the Lord.