i am very scared

I have told everyone my problems many times and i hate to tell people this but they have only got worse. I am so scared. Then i just read this by charles finney and i have become even more scared about everything. I have seen my self just grow worse and worse, my heart has become hardened and i can't hold onto my faith at all anymore, even when i try it is impossible. I am seeing myself fall back into my old sins and not being able to get out of them. I have this hatred in my heart towards people and i do not serve god anymore, and if i tried it would be fake. I mean when the lord came into my life 5 years ago i was changed, my desires and my life towards him, but not even 2 months into it i fell into sexual sin, got married 3 years later to an unbeliever and since then it has been as if i have been living a curse, i get attacked by demons all the time and do not have no power over them. I have had me and everyone pray for me to no avail. I have thought about killing myself but i am afraid i am going to be in hell on the other side. Was it my lack of knowledge that got me in this and why has God not forgiven me and given me the ability to have faith, has he given me an evil spirit to not believe. Was i even saved from the beginning or was i only awakened? I see my flesh taking over me and me being desirable to sin more than living for the lord.Am i dooomed as charles finney says.

III. The consequences of grieving the Holy Spirit.

1. One of the consequences of grieving the Holy Spirit is to be abandoned by him. If you continue to grieve the Holy Spirit you may expect him to abandon you forever. God's Spirit will not always strive with man. He gave up the Israelites because they vexed and grieved his Spirit. He abandoned the old world for the same reason. And many individuals, and families, and nations, in every age of the world have been given up because they grieved the Holy Spirit.

2. Spiritual blindness. This follows as a matter of course from the absence of the Spirit's influences. Men are naturally blind and deaf to all the great truths which should sanctify their souls. Not that you have not naturally eyes and ears with which to see and hear were you well disposed, but "having eyes you see not, and ears, you hear not." And being unwilling to retain God in your knowledge you blind your own eyes, and deafen your own ears, and harden your own hearts. And when once the Spirit of God has given you up, your blindness though voluntary is as certain and eternal as your existence.

3. A conscience seared as with a hot iron is another effect of grieving the Spirit. This will naturally follow from your great spiritual blindness. A silent or seared conscience is a state of mind to be infinitely dreaded. For if its voice be silenced you may go on in security crying peace and safety until sudden destruction cometh upon you. It is an unspeakable blessing to have a quick and tender conscience--one that will enforce the slightest obligation with great power. But you should by all means, as you would the murder of your own soul, avoid that which will silence your conscience and hush its warning voice.

4. If God abandon you, you will become the confirmed and complete slave of that sin, whatever it be, on account of which he has given you up. If it be some vile indulgence in some form of intemperance--the love of money--the love of pleasure--passion under any form--or infidelity or error--in short whatever sin has been persevered in until God has given you up or the Holy Spirit departed from you, that sin has become your master. It will chain you like a slave, and rule over you with a rod of iron. It will impose on you its galling yoke until you shall be filled with your own ways. How many cases of this kind have come under my own observation, where persons have tempted God by indulging in some form of sin, until he has given them up to its reigning power; and then how feeble are all their efforts to overcome it. Their resolutions are as yielding as air. Every breath of temptation carries them away. And finding themselves all weakness and swept away by temptation as with a flood, they throw up the reins, and drive furiously to destruction.

5. If the Holy Spirit abandon you, you may expect God to "send strong delusions upon you that you may believe a lie, that you may be damned because you obey not the truth but have pleasure in unrighteousness." It is said that an "evil spirit from the Lord troubled Saul," and that a "lying spirit" was suffered by the Lord to deceive Ahab to his own destruction. A man who grieves the Holy Spirit--who is hiding away from the light, receives not the truth, but has pleasure in some form of unrighteousness. It is remarkable to see in how many ways the providences of God will help a man, in this state, forward to some fatal delusion. Infidel books or lecturers--universalist ministers or publications--wicked companions and associates--and often times the prince of hell, is suffered to delude and lead such a soul into impenetrable darkness, and destructive delusion.

6. Self-disgrace may be and often is a consequence of being abandoned by the Holy Spirit. It is remarkable to see when an individual has grieved the Holy Spirit, how blind he is in regard to the light in which his conduct is and will be viewed by those around him. If this be your case you will probably go from step to step, beginning perhaps with indulgence in levity--next you will discover an irritable spirit, and show that you have no command of your temper--then a spirit of worldly-mindedness may develop itself--next a spirit of licentiousness may be plainly discerned by those around you--then some form of intemperance may get the mastery of you--then a spirit of exaggeration and perhaps of lying may take possession of your soul--and thus in the midst of your blindness wander on until you find yourself deeply disgraced in the eyes of men, and forever lost in the eye of God.

7. You may be left to inflict the deepest disgrace on your family and friends and perhaps ruin many over whom you have influence. "A little leaven leaventh the whole lump." Men naturally have great influence over each other, and with great facility do "evil communications corrupt good manners," because wicked example so falls in with the corrupt state of the human heart. It is exceedingly easy to influence individuals to sin, because they are already so inclined to sin. A slight amount of temptation therefore may lead those around you to follow your example, until all together, at last you sink to the depths of hell.

8. If you are a professor of religion, and the Holy Spirit leave you, you will of course greatly wound and dishonor Christ.

9. You may be given up to Satan "to be led captive at his will." I have already adverted to the case of Saul and Ahab as being given up to Satan for their wickedness. Paul speaks of having delivered a certain man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, and it doubtless often occurs when the Spirit of God has left a man, that Satan takes full possession of his heart. Christ seems to teach this in the following language. "When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and finding none. Then he saith, I will return into my house whence I came out and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first." Now here it is plainly taught by Christ himself that when the Holy Spirit has left a man, his heart is like a room swept and garnished waiting to entertain the devil, and that he may be expected to take possession, to exert over him at least sevenfold more influence than ever before.

10. If the Holy Spirit leave you, you may expect to become very insensible and blind in regard to the state of your own soul. You may be left to think that you are engaged in religion, and mistake the silence of your conscience for the peace of God, and the absence of all concern about your soul for a good hope through grace. It doubtless has often occurred and I think I have myself seen cases, where persons seem to have the most undoubting assurance of mind that they were in a gracious state, when their temper and conduct manifest any thing else than the [S]spirit of Christ. Christ himself represents some as being in such a state of delusion as to carry their false hopes and delusions to the very bar of God. He represents them as saying, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name cast out devils, and in thy name done many wonderful works?" But hear his answer. "Then will I profess unto them, I never knew you. Depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

11. If the Spirit leave you, you will have no heart to offer prevailing prayer, and if you attempt to pray, you will find that your mouth is shut, and if opened it will only be opened to mock God. And you will find as a matter of fact, that instead of being benefited you are only hardened by engaging in prayer.

12. You will wax worse, and worse if abandoned of God. This may be true of you and still you not observe it, and yet if you will be honest with yourselves, if any of you have grieved the Holy Spirit away, by comparing your recent with your former experience, you may see that you are waxing worse and worse.

13. If the Spirit leave you, your damnation is certain, God has said. "Woe unto them when I depart from them." If left to yourself, remember that you are as certain of being lost as if you had already been a thousand years in hell.

14. If the Spirit abandon you, all things will work together for your destruction. The very means that should make you better will make you worse. The efforts that God makes to save those around you will only confirm you in your sins. In short all God's providences, with all the influences of his grace which surround you will be but so many stumbling blocks to your poor blinded soul. The Sabbath with its cheerful light and solemn stillness, will rise upon you but to harden your heart. "The sound of the Church-going bell,"--the voice of the living preacher--the song of praise--everything in the sanctuary--every thing within and without yourself, will conspire to work out for you an exceeding great and eternal weight of damnation.

Dear bible1985,

Please please listen. You are NOT doomed. You have a conscience and a desire to serve God. You have not crossed over the line to unforgiveness. I was in exactly the same state as you about 8 years ago and was terrified that I would never be free.

I was in an adulterous, marraige, drank excessively, smoked 2 packs of cigarettes a day, and had a horrendous online gambling debt that in the natural would have meant bankruptcy. I could not speak without profanity emerging from my mouth because of an unclean spirit. Now, you are talking about a woman who had experienced a grand salvation and turned from the Lord after falling into sin.

It was through much seeking of the Lord AND a willingness to allow Him to cause things to happen to free you from this prison. I know you can be set free because I was.

First, please stop listening to or reading sermons that will damn you. Satan loves this and would want to lie to you that this is beyond God. With Him, nothing is impossible. Stick to the Word of God. Read about David and how he was forgiven and delivered. He actually set up and killed a man which was worthy of stoning. I know the Lord included this in the Word to let me know that I was not alone.

Daniel 11:25 says that some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end. Dear saint, that is you and I. You must understand that He is greater and a wonderful Shepherd. It will not be easy but you will be a polished stone once you are refined.

He is coming to seek you out AND deliver you. Satan is doing his best to lie and tell you it can't be fixed. If He could deliver me, he will deliver you. Remember, that most of these sins are demonic in nature, and will not be intense as they are as the Lord delivers you. I wish you could see my before and after pictures, maybe some day.

Definitely stop reading what will put condemnation on you. None of us are worthy. He knows my wretched state daily, but I have given myself to His refining and not my own. It is the washing of the water of the Word and the renewing of the Holy Ghost.

His Spirit has not abandoned you because you despise your sin. It is simply a spirit of fear that is hounding you.

I will pray this morning for that cloud to break and the truth of God's forgiveness to be revealed. He is so patient and faithful and safely deliverers his wandering sheep.

May you rest in His mercy. Please keep us posted.

God Bless, His forgiven servant, Kathleen

I agree with Kathleen. Might I suggest you do something? Burn whatever material you are reading by Charles Finney. As beneficial as he can be sometimes, I believe he only brings about more confusion than good, especially if you don't read what he says with a grain of salt. The man had little concept of grace and faith, and indeed, held some view points that stand in outright contradiction to God's word.

Ultimately this is what you need to do. You need to do as the apostle Paul taught in Philippians 3:1-18. Forget the things that are in the past, and put no confidence in the flesh. Don't trust in how good or how bad you have been. Instead, let your only confidence only be in the righteousness of God that comes by faith. You see, it's not about what you do or don't do. According to Romans 5, it's about what Christ did, and "the obedience of the One." It's not about your obedience, it's about Christ's obedience.

Once you truly have that mindset, embrace what Paul taught in Phil 3:10, "that I might know Him." Let that simply be your heart's burning desire. Stop trying to stop sinning and start trying to simply know God and hungering for Him. Such is the true path to victory. All else becomes fleshly exertion and law based living, instead of Spirit based living. Determine to only know Christ and the power of His resurrection, and with it His sufferings and death.

Paul reminds us also in verse 12 to never come to a place that you feel like you have "arrived." Instead, always strive in your faith to know Him better and better each day, not looking back to your past, but looking forward towards Him. Press on in this, run in this, and you will do well.

Listening to Finney will only cause you to become a hamster than is running on the same wheel day in and day out, getting you nowhere and leaving you exhausted and full of despair. As mighty as Finney was used, his teachings are very carnal and often in grave error, and stand in staunch opposition to the gospel of Jesus Christ, and the true liberating power that it brings. Finney's teachings induce law based and flesh based living, which only leads to slavery to the flesh and to sin. It is not Spirit based, and will never bring about the freedom, joy, and peace that you seek, which can only come from living a life relationally with the Spirit of God, who will help you in putting to death the deeds of the flesh.

So like I said earlier, burn your books by Charles Finney, and drown yourself in Philippians 3.

Do yourself a favour, ditch Finney and everyone else for that matter, and stick with the word of God.

Psalm 138v2, '...for You have magnified Your word above all Your name.

Since God has given such power to His word, how is it we have a hard time believing Him? As though He were a liar, which He is not.

Another thing is, do you operate according to your emotions?

So many do, and sadly, emotions can dictate how we react to all sorts of things, anything that comes our way.

James 4v8 tells us to draw near to God and He will draw near to you.

Is that a promise or a fact? Does it say we will see, feel or hear anything? No.

If God says He will, He will, what more is there to it?

It is just a matter of whether or not we believe what the word of God says.

Follow the example of the apostles in Act 6 who gave themselves continually to prayer and the ministry of the word.

How many chapters or how much time do you spend reading the word of God daily?

How much time in prayer?

These are foundational to our Christian walk, without them we are no better than we were before we got saved.

If you didn't want God, you would not have written what you did.

Just one last scripture.

Psalm 34v6, 'This poor man cried out, and the Lord heard him, and saved him out of all his troubles'

God bless.

Bible 1985,

Conviction of sin is from the Holy Spirit. If you had sinned away your salvation and grieved away the Holy Spirit, you would not be under conviction as you are now. John 16:8 "And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment." The same Spirit who is convicting you of sin will lead you to Calvary. Stay in the Scriptures, which point you to Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith, and do not be decieved by Charles Finney, who will tell you to look to yourself for salvation. As a young Christian, a sermon by Charles Finney shattered my faith, destroyed my confidence in the Bible and I walked away from God for many years. Finney taught a false gospel known as Pelagianism. He denied the atonement, justification by faith, original sin and the new birth. Don't be led astray by him.

Do as others have said, read scripture and not Finney.

God wil never desert you. Jesus said, 'I am with you always to the end of the age'.

You are a son of God in whom he is well pleased. You cannot disappoint him as He knows everything about you already (what you have done and will do) and He still loves you, just as he still loves me whatever I have done, do and shall do in the future.

Nothing you do can make God love you more but nothing you do can make God love you less either!

A voice that is telling you that you are worthless and goading you towards suicide is that of the enemy, Satan. Please do not listen to such unchristian nonsense from anyone not from Finney nor anyone else. He was way off beam.

This from www.spurgeons.org (now Spurgeon WAS a great christian):

Charles Grandison Finney was a heretic. That language is not too strong. Though he excelled at cloaking his opinions in ambiguous language and biblical-sounding expressions, his views were almost pure Pelagianism. The arguments he employed to sustain those views were nearly always rationalistic and philosophical, not biblical. To canonize this man as an evangelical hero is to ignore the facts of what he stood for.
Don't be duped by sanitized 20th-century editions of Finney's works. Read the "Complete and Newly Expanded" 1878 edition of Finney's Systematic Theology, recently published by Bethany house Publishers (the unabridged 1878 version with a couple of Finney's later lectures added). This volume shows the real character of Finney's doctrine. (The unabridged 1851 version is now online, and it also exposes Finney's errors in language not toned down by later redactors.) By no stretch of the imagination does Finney deserve to be regarded as an evangelical. By corrupting the doctrine of justification by faith; by denying the doctrines of original sin and total depravity; by minimizing the sovereignty of God while enthroning the power of the human will; and above all, by undermining the doctrine of substitutionary atonement, Finney filled the bloodstream of American evangelicalism with poisons that have kept the movement maimed even to this day.
That's why you'll find Finney listed in the "Really Bad Theology" category of my bookmarks, and in the "Unorthodox" wing of The Hall of Church History.

May God's Blessing be upon you and His Love for you be ever more real to you.

GordonM

My Brother... God is not an absentee Father. He will not say something and then change his mind. He will not leave you like others have left you in the past. He will not promise you something and then lie to you. His word IS truth. His word IS life. He IS salvation.

He gives salvation to us without charge because of who HE is, not because of who you are.

[u][b]Ephesians 2:8-9 NKJV[/b][/u]

[i]For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.[/i]

I stand in agreement with our brothers and sisters here. Burn all other books that you have except the Bible. Fall into His word, and His word alone.

If you are going to read anything, I would suggest sticking to the NT at this time, specifically the writings of Paul. I believe that Paul understood Grace almost better then anyone on this earth, at anytime. King David would be another.

You are saved by Grace my brother. Grace. Grace. Grace. It is the gift of God to all mankind. Accept it my brother, then walk in it.

[u][b]Revelation 3:20 NKJV[/b][/u]

[i]Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. [/i]

thank you guys so much, i had no idea finneys teachings were considered heretic. I have to get to sleep, but i want to talk about this issue in detail on this tommorow. I want to be saved so bad and i just want to thank you so much, i believe that the lord is finally revealing my sinfulness finally this past few months, but i will get back to you.

I can sympathize with your anguish, please don't fall any further into the trap of believing that your justification before our Father is nullified every time you sin, this is a dammnable heresey! Read 1 John and meditate on it, read Romans 6 and 8, meditate on it- if you are born again, these chapters ARE the reality of a child of God. Do not depend on your feelings, they are too easily effected by Satan.

bible1985,

Praise God you have such comfort in the Lord's saints for He has sent them there to assure you that you have a faithful Shepherd. It's been so long that I had forgotten how much terror I had lived with early after my return to the Lord. None of this began until I repented. I now realize that Satan's attempts to fool us that we have "Done it this time!", are his efforts to cause us to give up the battle.

May you gain strength from His Word and the exhortations here.

Thanks also brethren for speaking about Finney. I had to stop reading his sermons because of the darkness I would feel. I wondered why he was so praised and why I felt so terrible from what he spoke. Bless the Lord. There is now therefore no condemnation...

I wondered why he was so praised and why I felt so terrible from what he spoke.

Finney is praised by those who have a penchant for hard-nose hell fire preaching and railing against sin as if this were the gospel itself. He's praised by those who have a mindset of picking yourself up by the boot straps and being a self-made man. He's praised by those who are impressed by the practical application and results of his ministry. It's a hard thing to deny the numbers he saw, and not easily be impressed.

Even the great A. W. Tozer who thought poor of Finney's doctrine's thought at least God used Him to bring about a genuine revival. I was not alive then and have not absorbed myself in Finney's teachings, so, I will not say with absolute confidence that he saw genuine revival through his ministry.

Ultimately though he is a man who thought through his personal obedience to the law of God he would be saved. Yet Paul reminds us that we are saved by grace apart from the works of the law. Even firm Weslyean-Arminians such as myself realize such is a false gospel.

If you are depending on your personal obedience to the law to save you, such as some who were trusting in circumcision for salvation, then Paul says we have been severed from Christ and fallen from grace. Romans 5 is such an important chapter to truly grasp. For when one truly grasps it, one will see it's all of Him and none of us. It is "through the obedience of the One" that salvation is attained. Contrary to the ideas of some, this does not make room whatsoever for a "greasy grace" or anti-nomian thought. For a faith that trusts in Him to the uttermost for salvation is a faith that brings an end to self. And when one comes to the end of self, as saving faith is calculated to bring one to, then one will stop living for self and instead live for God. A radical transformation has thus occurred. In this we lose our lives so that we might gain and live His. Our "obedience" is merely the outworking of the saving faith that brings an end to self.

Continual disobedience, no doubt, is evidence that one has never had or has at some time walked away from this faith that brings an end of self. But such lawlessness is merely the symptom of living for self that issues out of a lack of faith. If one is in such a state, the solution is not to fall on your knees and tell God you'll do better and obey Him now. Such a mindset will only further enslave one to sin and to the flesh. Rather, the solution is to turn to Him, and trust Him moment by moment for all things, including your salvation. Only when this happens will one walk in obedience to God and His commandments, which is merely the outworking of our salvation which has already been obtained by Christ through His obedience on the cross.

finney may be unbalanced in much of his writings, he wrote much that is true and much to be for our benefit to read. but as all men he was unbalanced in some areas. i feel i want to share a sermon by t a sparks called the grace of god. download it and listen, its less tjen 30 minutes buy it will help you understand things better.

Thanks Old Joe.

You've been a great help.

here is the link brother, i urge you to take time to listen to it, mostly because much of what you have written i once feelt and struggled with and sometimes still do, this sermon released something within me and it bis one of the best messages i have ever heard. Also the best defenition of Gods grace i have ever read or heard.

so i beg you to take time, and if you have an ipod or something put it there go out to the woods with an open heart and seek God. I pray you will return a changed man.

I did after this sermon.

God be with you

edit: forgot the link! [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=1373&commentView=itemComments]the grace of god - t.a sparks[/url]

enid wrote:
Do yourself a favour, ditch Finney and everyone else for that matter, and stick with the word of God.
God bless.

Amen! and Amen and can I get another Amen! I have spent many dry seasons looking to man for the answers and all man did was confuse me. My God is a jealous God, just like your earthly Father would not like you asking someone advise before asking him, God always wants us to come to him first, seek me first is what he said. In my honest opinion, I still believe that most Christian men or women are not truly speaking from deep within the heart, but speaking there opinions from there mind or experience and neither may fit your particular need at the time.

We all go through dry seasons, and sometimes confusion will set in, and we all know who is the master of confusion, right? Stick with God and look to others for conformation only, trust me this will help you I know, why? because I have been in your shoes many, many times.

I hope that you will find this sermon that was preached recently by William Carrol to be helpful...

[url=http://media.tscnyc.org/mp3/20090303T1.mp3]What If I Fail In The Time of Trial[/url]

Hello, friend. You know, it was Finney's writings which helped lead me to seek God's grace... precisely because Finney's seemed to lack any hope of it.

I later read portions of Finney's systematic theology and discovered first-hand that he denied the substitutionary death of Christ and the imputation of Jesus' righteousness to us through faith alone. Finney may have been good at pointing out our guilt under the Law (which is not always a bad thing) but he missed the point of the gospel - God justifieth the ungodly.

"Him that works not, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." Rom 4:5

If Christ's perfect obedience can be counted, that is credited, to me on the basis of faith alone, apart from my own works, does this free me to sin without regret or consequences? By no means. Imputed righteousness through faith does not give anyone a license to sin, but promotes grateful obedience for having been accepted on the basis of Christ's obedience imputed to us. Moreover, the God who imputes righteousness does so through faith, which is the result of a regenerated nature. The "new creatures" that persons become through regeneration, i.e. being born again, sincerely long after holiness, even though it is strongly opposed by the world, the flesh, and the devil. While a degree of holy living and sincere contrition are evidences of real faith, they do not substitute or add to it in the category of justification.

How do we receive such credited righteousness? Only by faith in God to have mercy on us through Jesus' obedient life, substitutionary death, and victorious resurrection, to ascension, unto all who believe.

His Life Fulfilled the Law - Jesus lived obediently to fulfill the Law of God on behalf of persons who broke it. Through faith we may receive the full reward of His obedience, so that it is not only as if we are a clean slate - "from now on obey or else you'll go back to to damnation" - but are actually, presently, and unchangeably righteous in God's legal sight. He earned the degree and hands us the certificate. He did the job and extends to us the check. We cash it the moment we express faith in His generosity.

Here is a simple way of summing this up:

You are not justified by your sanctification;
You are sanctified by your justification.
Your justification is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

Friend, you feel overwhelmed and hopelessly sinful, but how is that so bad? You fit very well the description of the ones whom Christ came to heal - the sick. Are there any more sick in soul than one like yourself? For sinners Christ died.

Satan suggests that you were never saved but have been a hypocrite all along. So what? Christ died for the ungodly - your resume is perfect, if you will believe. So what if you were merely awakened all those years ago and have been unrepentant since? Now He "commands all men everywhere to repent." [Acts 17:30] Turn this moment from trying to be saved through your moral obedience, which is the Old Covenant, and believe on Christ Jesus, who justifies the ungodly!

If this is not enough to convince you of His goodness towards your personal situation, consider what it means that God now commands you to believe on Him to justify you through faith in Christ alone. What is this God demands? Only that you immediately stop doubting His kindness and receive His everlasting joy freely, by believing on Christ to have earned the reward of perfect obedience, and to have suffered the full penalty for all those who believe. He commands you, "Be saved and receive life, joy, love, living waters, and paradise! Gratis! Free through my Son!"

God commands no one to go to hell. Just the opposite: He demands that you receive His gift, not based on your performance but on His grace - an unearnable gift! Don't hesitate because of your weakness; He is strong. Trust His promise and "be confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ." [Phil 1:6] Paul was not boasting in himself but in Christ, when he wrote, "I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me." [Phil 4:13] What more do you wait for, fall even now upon the "God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." [Phil 2:13]

Galatians 2:16 - "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

Friend, I plead with you to abandon your despair. You make the Lord's death seem insufficient, when it is not so. He bore the sins of all who come. Confess to the Lord that you have not obeyed, cannot obey apart from His grace, and will never obey as you ought, until you are in the presence of Christ. Then trust Him to pardon you through faith in Jesus' having fulfilled the terms. Let every act of future obedience be a sacrifice of thankfulness for having been justified freely through His grace.

God bless you, friend.

PS: I recommend Whitfield's Letter to John Wesley. It was the antidote to my season of darkness, and from the year I read it til now I have not had fifteen minutes of utter gloom.

Praying for you.

-M:.

Do yourself a favour, ditch Finney and everyone else for that matter, and stick with the word of God.

I agree to some extent. The following is a reply on another Christian discussion board by a friend named Robin:

Is it true that all we need is a copy of the Bible and our own understanding of it? Because after all, the Bible says,

the anointing which you have received abides in you, and you have no need of any man to teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you of all things, and is truth and no lie, even as it has taught you, you shall abide in Him (1st John 2:27).

So as a Christian, I don't need teachers or pastors or theologians to tell me what's what. All I need is my Bible and "the anointing." Right?

Yet the same Bible also says,

He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ... as a result we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine... (Ephesians 4:11-12, 14).

Why would He give teachers and pastors to people who have no need of any man to teach them? Why are we told to honor those in authority over us as "those who keep watch over souls" (Hebrews 13:17)? Why are we told to "prove all things" (1st Thessalonians 5:21)? Shouldn't "the anointing" be enough?

Well for one thing, how are to we to know "the anointing," anyway? Is it a feeling? Is it some intellectual assurance or a satisfied emotion? And how is it that me and my Bible (and whatever "anointing") can come up with completely different "absolute truths" than my friend gets from [i]his[/i] Bible and anointing? How is it that we can disagree so vastly - using the same Bible and having the same "anointing" - on such vital matters as the nature of God, what He requires of men, and how His word is fulfilled?

Believers enjoy the illumination of the Holy Spirit speaking through the Scriptures. It is no contradiction that we should listen to other believers when they admonish and instruct us. They also have the same Spirit, and the danger of confusion by false teaching is a real threat (Matthew 24:24). And as we see in the Ephesians passage above, He has provided certain gifted people and set them in place to instruct us in the teachings of Scripture. It absolutely astounds me how some people can simply dismiss all the work of all the gifted translators, linguists, historians, archaeologists, and theologians throught the centuries and conclude, "just read your Bible and go with your gut." Sure, many of the theologians and others disagree among themselves at times. Throughout the history of the Church there have been some major battles fought to preserve the truth of the Scripture, with wonderful debates in which evidence is presented on opposing sides of some doctrine and a decision is reached after much prayer and debate. The first recorded instance of such a council is recorded in Acts 15. It is called "the Jerusalem Council" and the subject of that debate was whether or not the Church should require Gentile believers to be circumcised according to Old Testament law. The issue was decided upon evidence that God Himself provided - the sign gifts of the Holy Spirit were bestowed upon uncircumcised believers just as they were upon Jewish believers.

"He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith (Acts 15:9)," Peter testified to the Council. Paul and Barnabas provided further eyewitness testimony to God's work among the Gentiles. The decision of the first Council was not to require Christians to receive circumcision. In his epistles Paul makes it very clear that circumcision was a "type and shadow" of the real thing - the substance being Christ (Colossians 2:17).[b] How astounding that a Council made up almost entirely of Jewish believers could agree that the Old Testament requirement of circumcision was no longer valid! How dare they dismiss Genesis 17 as though the Old Testament had expired! [/b]No, not expired, [i]fulfilled[/i]. All of the Old Testament ceremonial law prefigured Christ and was fulfilled in Christ. Why aren't those who insist that we worship on Saturday still building altars and sacrificing animals? How do they pick and choose which ceremonial types and shadows [i]are[/i] and which are [i]not[/i] fulfilled in Christ? I'll tell you how: "Just me and my Bible," that's how. One's interpretation differs from another, and neither recognises the same anointing in the rest of the body of Christ; and they reject the gifts God gave to the church (Ephesians 4 again).

There have been church councils over other issues in the centuries since the Jerusalem Council. In each one the issues were examined and debated and tested by those gifted "laborers in the word and doctrine (1st Timothy 5:17)," who either proved or disproved a teaching from the Scriptures and helped to define and clarify the teachings of the Christian religion. These sumary statements of doctrine came to be called the Creeds of the church. [b]Some of the earliest creeds are even recorded for us in the epistles![/b]

It is a faithful saying, worthy of acceptation... (1st Timothy 1:15, 3:1, 4:9, 2nd Timothy 2:11, Titus 3:8)

[b]These "faithful sayings" refer tothe earliest creeds[/b] - a way of clarifying and describing [i]what is to be be believed[/i]. So don't be one of those prideful "no creed but Christ, no book but the Bible" sort of Christians who reject the gifts of the Spirit (Ephesians 4:11-12) to His church and the truths He has preserved through them. If it is "just me and my Bible," without the knowledge of history; without the wisdom of gifted teachers and pastors past and present; without the clarity of the councils and creeds, I could very quickly confuse myself in the pages of my own Bible, left to my own senses and reasoning.

The Jerusalem Council declared the Law requiring circumcision inapplicable to believers. By what authority did they "nullify" the clear commandment of Genesis 17? And what other laws may no longer be in effect for Christians? Why?

Most people can't get answers to these questions just using their Bible and whatever "anointing" they can "sense." Nor can we learn to study the Bible and truly discover it's teachings entirely on our own. No one is that good. Not even the Apostles, who had to hold a Council to discuss and debate before reaching a conclusion. If even they couldn't do it without help, what makes you or I think we can make it on our own - "just me and my Bible?"

I do not think it is wise to ignore the teachings of others. In fact, you have hear a whole library of sermons and messages made by godly men giving you an example. As for your problem,

Here's my advice... download Paul Washer's sermon called "Examine Yourself". Listen to it as many times as it takes for this sermon to sink in.

Then... get on your knees and don't get up until you have sought God, and He has touched you.

Krispy

That is godly advise.

As another side of view, I was where you were at: with the knowledge of my extensive list of sins and totally terrified. I was dating a women who professed salvation yet whose life ignored Him. And I followed suit: soon, she had me convinced that sex was ok, that a filthy mouth was something that could be alright if it were the right time, and that "natural thoughts" were totally fine as long as when you got home you "confessed". I was so consumed with my sins that God had become nothing to me; I was at the point to where I knew that to continue in my sins I would have to ditch God and His word and His church. I was close to doing so, but I listened to Paul Washer, not to give him glory, and God used him to show me that I needed to compare myself and life to the Scriptures and what They say about true Christianity and true salvation. I read through 1 John and had nearly begun to cry with the thought that I may not be saved. I read through it again and at 2:11 I fell on my back, balling my eyes out, waving my hands near heaven with one cry: "I am not saved!!". God had touch my soul with the truth of His powerful word. I remembered the words of Christ and the apostles, "Repent and believe..." and Christ saved me on May 2, 2008, Friday. I will not say that you are saved, because I do not have the right to. But I will say that if you feel that there may be some doubt, examine yourself with Scripture. *2 Corinthians 13:5*

You are in my prayers ;)

I don't think anyone here really means literally ditch it all except the Bible, it really depends on the type of seasons we are going through. I have been through seasons were I was moving forward, just not as fast as I would like or things were not falling into place as well as I would like, in theses type seasons yes a book or a few good sermons might help you to understand enough to get a grasp or hold on things to help pull you through.

I have also been in seasons that anything "period" I picked up by man or listened to by man only confused me more and made me beat myself up more, so in those seasons I stuck close to Gods word. I am not saying that there are not some excellent sincere Bible teachers or writers out there, I am only saying that there is some seasons in our lives that we get caught up in looking for a book or sermon to pacify us temporary, and confusion always seems to set back in, the word of God offers no opinions, only truth, so it's very hard to get confused if you are wise enough to understand every word your reading in the Bible is truth.

I don't think anyone here really means literally ditch it all except the Bible

I only posted all that because they never clarified on your point ;)

Thanks for the post

Guilt can cause us to look at things and people in our lives in a way that is very unhealthy. Guilt, which is not the same as conviction, is a tireless adversary wishing to drag the heart and soul into a thick darkness in which clarity can not be found.

Very amazing posts on here by the way, I was very encouraged by them. Thank you.

With all this wonderful advise and discussion I hesitate to post, yet please allow me to share this.

Taking all things said into consideration, which are very true, even though some are more complex than need be, one thing remains:

God has never changed His mind about the rescue of a soul.

Even more than that, (Many years ago I heard this somewhere and it has grown in my heart, in my study and became a part of my Christian experience..)

God knows ALL about every part of you. Better even than you do yourself. He has watched you since you were a baby, and has seen every struggle you may have endured. He sees every sin, even those you may not yet recognize. He realizes every weakness, with your flesh, your feelings, your past, and your humanity.

YET, it was HE who choose you.

Nothing at all is hidden from Him, and He knows all about us; yet HE choose us, He ransomed us, He draws us by the power of the Holy Spirit. He washes us with the blood of His very own dear Son.

He is not surprised by our sin, He knows everything from beginning to end, and HE is more than able.

Please remember one thing. God saw the travail of His soul (Jesus Christ's) and was satisfied. (The cost for sin.)

Yes, there are probably things you need to deal with, as we all do. There is this wonderful, simple place which aids us: the light. The light dispels darkness, its a fact. It doesn't matter how I feel about it, when I flip on a switch the darkness goes away. In the light, I know that I'm a sinner (as was spoken earlier and quite well by another post), I recognize that as a fact. I AM UNABLE TO CHANGE MYSELF.

In the light I see that. In the light I see that no one else can either, no one else can change their hearts, thier sins, or their minds themselves.

In the light I can see,
regardless of how dimmly- as I may have thngs blocking my full view- I may only see men walking as trees- I may have a splinter or a branch in my eye which causes me to only see bits and pieces...,

but I will see

that the God who spoke this entire universe into existence choose me to belong to Him and HIS desire is that I should be washed, that I should be made whole, that all the scars of this life would be without the power to disable me.

Forgive me for using so many words to say something so simple.

The Holy Spirit spoke to me 25 years ago some simple words that rocked my world:
"You did not choose me, I choose you. You are a chosen vessal of mine"

I was as filthy as every other horrible sinner out there, I didn't think there was any way God could forgive me or that He would want to. I was held prisoner by my past, I was blind.(Period) As well as being blinded by many things, I have struggled through so many self inflicted wounds it's rediculous. Thank goodness it wasn't up to me. Thank the Lord that HE made a way where there was no way. I am thankful that He caused me to see. It was not easy, it was not fun, sometimes it was so hard I never thought I'd get past it. But I hold onto these truths.

#1 God knows everything. He knows all about you and I, and HE choose us to be changed into His sons and daughters.

#2. God is MORE than able! He can speak to chaos and darkness and create a vibrant, glorious, marvelous world. He can speak to a man dead for 4 days in the desert heat and bring him back to life. He can heal the leper, the lame, and blind and set the prisoner free. GOD CAN!!!!!

and the thought that astounds me

He wants to.

He gave His Son to reconcile a world gone astray, a people full of every vile thing that could no way be a part of His presence. Sold into captivity by their own choices, He bought them with His own blood. Not because they were special or good or a part of a few; but because they were His: His creation, His children, eternal souls given life and breath by Him.

a sister in Christ... sorry I rambled on so...

Brother,

I used to have a bad problem with evil imaginations. And my struggle in getting victory over this sin is similar to yours. I got victory but how did it come about?

I read all the articles I could on how to get victory. They suggested memorizing Bible verses, pleading the blood, prayer, Bible reading...All of these worked - for a while. You see methods of obtaining victory are powerless to help you because it focuses on human effort. Then I fell again and felt as doomed as ever before...so how, or when did victory come? After each episode of falling, I would literally fall on my knees and cry before God for strength and forgiveness. And before too long, it happened all over again. No lasting victory. BUT I kept it up! I got very desperate. I knew I was helpless. And I kept on falling before the LORD asking for victory. Then one day, ONE day the devil came along with an evil thought and out of -who knows where- came the command to the devil to leave. I told him to leave and at that moment a peace filled my body, starting at my head and flowed to my feet! Oh, brother! That was so wonderful! You want to know where I was when it happened? I was standing by our refrigerator, fixing to open the door! And brother, I have since then been free from that bondage! Awesome!

Brother, I told you my story to help you understand that some things require a struggle because of the enemy. But you must persist and not give up/in. Victory will come. You are in a fight for your life so keep it up! Your victory may not be similar to mine - God is not limited to certain methods. He will do it His way and you cannot imitate it.

Now about reading books, I will digress from the prevailing advice here and recommend "Pilgrim's Progress" by John Bunyan. The original version is a difficult read, you may want to read an updated, modern version. It is an allegory of the Christian life.

You will get the victory if you keep up the fight. And it may take you a long time, but never give up. God will come when he knows you have given up but still want Him desperately.

Blessings,
ginnyrose

bible4life wrote:
lore it is o.k yo ramble, we all want someone to hear our rambling, their is great responses on hear, now i really need to do something or wait on the lord or cry out to him.

Cry out to Him. This may sound harsh, but the way I see it is if your focus is truly on Him, your computer will be dung to you.

44And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

45Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

46And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

47And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

48And ye are witnesses of these things.

49And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

50And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.

51And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.

52And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:

53And were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen.

You can know that bible frontwards and backwards and NOT know Jesus.

Once you get the baptism of the Holy Ghost and truly spend time in his presence the looking back will stop.

Your walk is so mechanical and sin conscious. It is by faith we walk,but to never be WITH him and talk WITH him is a mere abstract relationship.

Most Christians talk to Jesus but not with him.

Dear bro in Christ,

There is a fine line between conviction and condemnation. Satan tries to condem you when you are caught in your sins while Jesus convicts you to repentance everytime you sin against God. John 10:10- the thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly. 1 John 3:8b- For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. It was at the cross where the powers of sin was broken when Yeshua (Jesus) took the sins of the whole world (John 3:16). Considering the fact that you are able to know your sins and to acknowledge them, the Holy Spirit must be convicting you. It is very different than if you delibrately come against God's conviction in your life. So, everytime you read the Word of God, it MUST bring change and conviction to your life. Confess your sins before God and repent from all of them. Repentance is not just saying sorry for the wrong you did, and then trying to be good. Repentance is completely turning away or forsaking all your past disgusting habits, and allow God to do a deep work of cleansing in you. And this cannot be done by human effort or the flesh. It must be led by the Spirit (Rom 8:14). Read Rom 8:1-2 carefully (preferably the KJV or NKJV), and meditate on what it says. There is only no condemnation if you are walking by the Spirit. If you are walking by the flesh, definitely you'll be condem. Romans 6-8 provides a very good advice for those who are struggling with sins in their lives. Surrender your life to the Lord and allow Him to take over your life completely. Be earnest, diligent and sincere in seeking His face. The more you spend your time communing with Him, reading His words and obeying Him, the more you'll experience the reality of God's presence in your life. On the other hand, if you are not committed to receive your breakthrough, you will not receive the freedom that you desire. Remember that no matter how terrible your sins are, God is able to forgive and cleanse you from all your sins. Do not allow the devil into deceiving you. Whatever happens in your past is all over, focus on your future in Christ from now on. In Christ, you are a new creation. God bless you bro, and hope to hear some good news from you.

I think if you die in your current state you are doomed as your concience testifies to you. But You are not without hope. You need to be delivered from these demons. You should seek out men of god who know how to deal with these demons, they will counsel and assist in the deliverance.

God loves us and has no desire to toss us aside, after Christ died for us. He has given much to assure our redemption, he values your soul.

Ezekiel 33:
10 ¶ Therefore, O thou son of man, speak unto the house of Israel; Thus ye speak, saying, If our transgressions and our sins be upon us, and we pine away in them, how should we then live?
11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
12 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.
13 When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.
14 Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;
15 If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.
16 None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.
17 Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal.
18 When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.
19 But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.
20 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways.

You must by all means be delivered from these things to overcome the sin.

I have known many people in your situation. Some get deliverance but some are decieved into believing they are doomed. One has been in this state for nearly thirty years. Two others requested of God to leave them alone and let them enjoy their sin (neither of them knew the other and the incidences were years apart). Those two each died before that night was over. You have to realize that satan will kill you in your sins if God removes his hand from you. The fact that you are still alive says alot.

Fasting and prayer will help you and I will pray for you.

I was listening to a message today by Carter Conlon and thought of you.

It is titled "Fly Away" and can be found here:

http://www.tscnyc.org/sermons_evangelistic_messages.php

I'm sorry I have not had time to read all the replies but you need to know FATHER GOD LOVES YOU
Your heart is reaching His HE LOVES YOU
your past is past HE LOVES YOU
it's not what you feel HE LOVES YOU
it's not what you do for him HE LOVES YOU
don't listen to legalism HE LOVES YOU

dear brother, you havent listened to the sermon yet?

it is 35 minutes and it will help you. I ask one more time you would consider take 35 minutes and listen to the sermon, it will solve all your back and forth thinking brother, it will set you free in him and his grace. It will be to your loss if you dont listen i am firmly convinced.

God bless you

Pray about my time alone with god this weekl, i really want to move forward with him

you need to find a group of spirit filled believers moving and operating in the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

I can't for the life of me see how the church chuggs along in their mental salvation.

I mean,it is fine I suppose for real clean cut believers that are satisfied.
You need heavy duty help (like me). The superficial walk won't cut it.

jn 7;38
He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

Not out of his mind,out of his belly

1cor 14;
1Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

2For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

12Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
14For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
18I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

I can do this anytime,anyplace. I jump right out of my natural circumstances and into the spirit.
We have an awesome array at our disposal and many ministries that not only haven't a clue but will teach with passion how not to walk in the power and spirit.

The word says "the joy of the Lord is my strength" and yet the church is not only not walking in joy but adamantly opposed to those that do.

I will walk in the spirit,walk in the joy,speak in tongues,enjoy the prosperity of Jesus,and the infilling of the spirit just like the disciples in the upper room and Stephen who was stoned and john on the isle of patmos. I will cast out demons and raise the dead just like Jesus said for me to do. I will desire to prophesy and walk in love and trust the Spirit of the living God To increase my faith and welcome every rebuke and chastisement from God and trust him to do right by me whether he sees fit to prosper me,and if I find myself in want,it is he who also promised me "but after ye have suffered for a little while" to bring me right back into his fullness and restore me spirit,soul,and body,just like ole Job. And should my time be up through martyrdom it is he that will gloriously give me the power to face ANYTHING a mere humanoid can throw at me,Jesus'friend

I never have a bad day anymore,because Jesus stands up inside me.
The devil is a punk,a liar,a sissy and a bluff.
And my God is a really,really big God. And I m his and belong to him. He may do with me as he wishes and whatever he does will be right.
I walk in victory because Jesus IS victory
I walk in love because Jesus is love
I walk in freedom because Jesus is freedom
I prophesy because Jesus is the spirit of Prophecy
No matter where I go or what I do Jesus is with me big time. He shows me what to do,and when I blow it I get with him and he fixes me back every single time. When I loose money or clients he brings me stuff that NORMALLY WOULD NOT BE THERE even better than before. Why? because that is how Jesus operates.

He is awesome and powerful.He is lovely and beautiful beyond human words and understanding. He is so holy and pure and beautiful. He is kind and gentle and loving. And he is my God.

I love to see the devil lose. And he LOSESS EVERY SINGLE TIME

Seek the baptism of the Holy Spirit and never look back. Then enter the fullness of your walk,and an adventure with Jesus that is truly,truly,out of this world

yeee haaa

I haven't read all the replies either. I did look at the first one in which Charles Finney's works were mentioned/listed.

Finney was not a good theologian, in fact he was a pretty brutal one. Consider Phil Johnson's (Grace to You) view...

http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/articles/finney.htm

William Cowper (Piper did an awesome biography on the man) struggled much of his life as well. Luther, Spurgeon and especially John Bunyan all wrote of times of terror and fear before God. It's not just you.

Inside Out is a great book if you can find it. You'll probably relate to it more than anything you've ever read.

Some people pass through a little easier, but some must pass through the flood. (as the hymn reads)

I've always wrestled with great fear before God, and it seems nothing can change it. I feel for you.

But we are saved by God's grace, and that means nothing you've ever done or ever will can earn you a single piece of salvation.

Jesus said all those that come to him, he'll cast none away Jhn 6:37

He'll also finish what he started Phil 1:6

Hang in there. God is not shocked by your sin. He's quite aware of it.

It's amazing grace.

And it's grace that the prodigal son understood in the end. I don't know about his older brother though.

When you've come to your end, just go to Him as he says. If you're weary and heavy laden, go to him, and he'll give you rest. He promised.

He didn't say it would be within 30 seconds of your prayer. But He did promise rest.

Go to Him and stay for awhile. Do the scariest thing. He's always watching for the return of a prodigal.

bible4life

Quoting you "i can't explain how i have tried to hold onto my faith and then satan comes and rips it out of my hands and i try to fight back to no avail. I can only hope and pray."
++++++++++++++

IF I may say take your focus off of self and put it completely and only on to Christ. Stop striving and just simply believe that all His promises are true. Abandon yourself to Him daily, take every thought captive to Jesus and just fall in love with your Savior. Its not about you at all, its about Him! Look at what He has done for you and just fall in love with your Lord and King!! You do have a choice in this. Daily make laying down your life for Him and others how you choose to live. If you put your focus on self it will consume you, put it on Jesus and others there will be a change.

Praying for you to die to self

Dear Bible4life,

I have followed this thread from time to time. What an awesome collection of responses to your situation, which is sooo common. This has been of great benefit to me as I read the responses and learn: iron sharpens iron. Do you see how God is faithfully blessing you? Seek and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened to you. I agree that you probably will benefit most from time in the Word asking the Holy Spirit to lead you in understanding the truth.

from an earlier post: "the funny thing is that at my job at dish network the other day we went to a christians house and they wanted to give me some material for free"

As an aside, this really encouraged me. I had some internet guys here last year and felt led to talk to them. I ended up finding that they had both strayed from the Lord. Both were so open to encouragements. I gave one a book I had on hand; he seemed grateful. You were being thought of by God in your encounter. He is a personal God who encourages us all day long. I hope you will be looking around you for other personal encouragements from Him.

This quote from you: "I have got to explain the gospel to her jewish grandfather, he seems interested but only God can change him, one thing you will realize is that everyone is dead in their sins and cannot respond on their own accord. Which to me makes the calvinistic doctrine more believable everyday even though it is scriptural too, calvinism from what i know was just an answer to 5 points of armianism. The only question i have always had wondsered about is why can't God choose everyone, and the fall was that predestined by God, those our 2 tough ones that our hard to understand, fallen men was it really in Gods plan for that to happen."

I also discourage you from getting hung up on Calvinism in sharing your faith. What a stumbling block this is for so many people! The gospel is not about Calvin or any other man, just Jesus!!! Be faithful to share truth in love: to sow and water--It is God who causes the growth!

I agree with many here, that you are under conviction. Ask God to search your heart and to give you the gift of Godly sorrow leading to repentance. He wants a contrite heart. Even if you don't FEEL it, AGREE with Him. Ask Him to open your eyes and ears and to make your heart sensitive...and then WAIT upon Him. He will act in His perfect timing.

Praying for you. Do not lose heart.

My fear that the Spirit of the Lord has passed on from me is the reason I just now opened Sermon Index in probably over a year and this post by Bible1985 is the first I accessed. Glory to God and His ways. I've read only a couple replies to Bible1985 and already am praising God and coming out from under this oppression of fear that began growing in me recently that I have lost my salvation. Thank you to those of you who take time to respond on this site.

To Bible1985, hmmmmm, and anyone interested, the audio of T. A. Sparks on grace took some doing to find. This is the direct link to it:

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=2&min=160&orderby=titleA&show=20

I'm going to listen now. Thank you hmmmmmmm for suggesting it.

Hebrews 10:26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

PLEASE I very much desire to know how those wise in the knowledge of the Lord on this site interpret the above scripture.

Thank you and I look forward to your counsel.

Paul was writing to the hebrews, but that dont meen it does not apply to us, that would make all other of Pauls letters not valid for our claim, including the "assurance" verses written to the Ephesians and Philippians or the romans, we cant really say we are saved by faith since it was written to the romans, so by saying it was to the "hebrews" pretty much leaves an American or Swedish in despair since we have no word of God to us.

i take it as it is, Jesus said many times "if"...

best way of have assurance is to look what Jesus said,

Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Jesus also gave us these words for our assurance

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

so if you hear Gods voice and obey and follow him no one can pluck you out of his hand, not even satan himself, no you may chose freely to "jump out" of his hand yourself, God never forced anyone into heaven.

I for myself have found that all verses speaking of promises and security for the believer has a condition to it, read all such verses in their context and you will find this, you will find words like "if" , "and" , "when" ect,

i hope you wont take my words for it but search for yourself, also Paul speaks of a great "falling away".

You cant really "fall away" unless you been in the right place to begin with. The greek work is [i]apostasia[/i] and can also be translated among other words to forsake. The reformed brethren would probably say those people never where born again from the start, maybe this is true in many cases and in our modern "easy belivism" christianity, but i am not so sure all people who leave the faith was never born again.

also my logic works such that if it where utterly impossible under all circumstances to lose our place in Christ, then why would Paul even bother to write a letter and encourage, warn, correct his brothers and sisters? why warn someone who is not in any danger anyway?

these are just my poor thoughts on this matter, i do not write this to rob you of any assurance, but rather hope to encourage you as peter did, [i]give diligence to make your calling and election sure[/i]

I could write much more of my conclusions on what the sum of scripture teaches, but i dont consider myself as one of those you said [i]wise in the knowledge of the Lord[/i] , but there has been many threads in the past dealing in depth with this subject, search on "eternal security" , "lose salvation" ect.

and dont limit yourself to favorite one "side", take time read both sides, since both sides has truths from the bible. All preachers and teachers are unbalanced, but Gods book is perfectly balanced so we need to read it and prayerfully submit to it.

God bless you

hmmhmm wrote:
...., no you may chose freely to "jump out" of his hand yourself, God never forced anyone into heaven.

Just something to consider,

Jeremiah 32:40
I will make an everlasting covenant with them: I will never stop doing good to them and I WILL INSPIRE THEM TO FEAR ME, SO THAT THEY WILL NEVER TURN AWAY FROM ME

One of the things that cause me to believe we will never deny God after having really been born again is that if we are the parent and we see our child going the wrong way (eg: taking drugs and stealing), well I am willing to do whatever I can such as sending him to a rehabilitation center even if its against his will of wanting to go there as I know that its the best for him and I know he is not able to think properly or refuse to think properly. Just some thoughts.

bible4life wrote:
I also will say this that i believe many of the early church fathers believed you had to perservere, so if i am wrong you can correct me but i believe they thought we could lose our salvation.

you are right, many of them seem to have believed this

I do belive Gods love will draw us and he will chastiuse us and try bring us back i think, or i think much of scripture say so,, but...... if you in the end keep fighting against God by living in sin, in the worlds ways ect, you keep living like an enemy to God even tho you have been born again, even tho God have been merciful and done things that you would turn around , but you refuse. I believe we have this choice, or if we dont then the love we have is not a genuine love. All true love is from a choice. So if you in the end by living in sin chose that way, why would God not let you go where you want to go?

and its true we have a new nature, we have put off the old man, but just as i can put off my work clothes when i get home, even tho they are dirty and muddy, if i wanted to i can put them on again. So i think if we go after sin and chose that way of life, even as we know it is wrong, we know it is sin, we are putting on the old man again i think, time periods and ect may vary from individual to individual, God deals in ways best for each different person, so we cant set up a box and say thus and thus it is for all.

but i have a suspicion and belief it is possible, if a born again beliver wants to, he can go to hell.

bible4life wrote:
do you know what early church fathers did and didn't

not sure i understand? did or didnt believe or do?

If you ask me, and my very limited understanding of the early church fathers i would say they or many of them belived a man could be saved and live so that he would end up eternally in hell.

thats my impression from reading the church fathers. but remember they are not scripture, even tho there may be some weight and its highly interesting.

edit: i recomend david bercots books on the church fathers and his dictionary, very good resources.

That was a lot of good teaching and learning about life in Christ. On closer examination-I would say "instead of burning charles finney's notes, let us use it TO work out our own salvation with fear and trembling."

I understand why so many of us are against charles finney, but the reality is OUR GENERATION needs messages like charles finney gave. So many christians are becoming a prey to satan's tactics. I had never read charles finney before- we need messages like this NOT TO BE CONDEMNED- BUT TO REALIZE THAT I AM A CHRISTIAN- I AM IN THE WORLD,BUT NOT OF THE WORLD.

As long as we keep directing people back to what others have said (ABOVE) what HE has said, THEN is it any wonder people struggle WITH THERE STRUGGLES? AND when they seek answers to there problems instead of us/we quoting FROM Christ or WHAT Paul wrote as the (ORACLES) of God... we say brother download this MESSAGE or read this book!

God gave us 66 books to gain comfort and wisdom from - and familiarize ourselves with!!!

And get to know "relationally" the one that authored those same 66 books. It's an insult to God himself when we prefer other books ABOVE the book of books. We read big voluminous books written By men. When bookS like leviticus and dueternonomy go UNREAD! JUST TO MAKE THE POINT

i ASKED A CHRISTIAN ONCE WHO HAD KNOWN THE LORD FOR OVER 30 years wether he knew the account of david numbering the people in Israel - and the penalty that ensued from that? To which i got the reply (NO im not familiar with the account and have never read it) never i replied to him? he said - no brother, i have never read the account!

Paul knew perplexity and distress and buffeting! All great men of God have known distress and perplexity. Look at Job - whenever you think you cant see the way out (OR) understand what is going on, then remember everything this man endured (and we count them happy and blessed which ENDURE - James said). Ive known similiar thick dark clouds come rolling in myself! and have known great wrestlings and stuggles in order to get my own mind sorted out!! In fact Sometimes it looks like a very dark tunnel in which there is no way out (in the natural - that is) - but we serve a God of the impossible. SO what do i do in those times and instances?? Is go back to basics for one - and hit the floor hARD on my my knees. I talk to God - And at the same time have a right royal talking to myself to sort out my priorities and direction. I check my desires - and wether im truly fair dinkum with God...or do i want to serve sin?? I get honest with myself ( first) because at the end of the day - it comes down to desire! How badly do i want it? But if it's a case of needing deliverance ... then: who the son sets free - is free indeed. If you truly want a way out. Then one thing is sure - he will make a way! He will make a way of escape! How badly do you want it? I garantee there isn't a person in here - that hasn't at one point or another in there life - known dark days, known trial, known affliction, known vexation, known oppression! And (yes) felt depressed and discouraged. But the good news is? There hath no temptation taken YOU but such is common to man: but God is FAITHFUL, WHO WILL NOT suffer you TO BE TEMPTED (OR TRIED) above that WHICH YOU ARE ABLE TO BEAR, BUT will with the temtation - make a way to escape... Sometimes to much advice - and not enough Godly inventory is counter-productive ( and i say that with all sensitivety ) Brother!! All the right answers lie with God. Had king saul practiced this instead of going by gut and by instinct and not so much "human counsel" - then he might not have been "the mighty that had fallen" !!

And i know this might all seem like "pat answers" when your in derision and feel afraid. And full of uncertainty. Ecet. But brother i sincerely hope that what ive shared might be of some help and of some spirtual assistance to you? hopefully

The advice we give people when they come to us at the end of there tether! and on the brink - becomes of critical importance to guide them in the right direction....sending people to the God of all comfort and exhorting them to prayer! As highest good and highest priority ( Followed by good spiritual counsel) surely must rate highly as the way to go. Although at the time i know that it seems like nothing can really help. And Being someone myself that has worked in mental health as a counselor - years ago. I know and have felt there pain, there heartache, and there confusion! And to the person (in that tunnel) it can seem like there really is no answer - or way out.

God bless !!!
I pray you know and find his grace! and realize he is "the God-of-all-comfort"

He sent his son who is NOW (high priest) over the house of God - who is able and willing to succour them ....that are in need of succouring!!

Dear sonofthunder,

Hopefully you will post more often. As I understand your message, it is 'go to the source, the Word of God. Amen.

Do not waste your time reading anything else - there is not much time left.

white stone

thank you sonofthunder. I realized that i was a couple days of ago so focused on sermons and other books and i wasn't getting into the word of god and i didn't have a great desire for it either. I began to read the gospels again 2 days ago in matthew and i am hoping the lord speaks to me.I feel as if satan is trying to blind me from truly believing and that is what is making it so hard to believe. I appreciate your post and your concern and prayers. Can i be saved if i am not convicted of my sins, because i have been praying to have i guess one of those times where God reveals to me my sins and that i have godly sorrow and want to repent. I have heard so many tell me of the time when they were saved that God shown them that they were a wrench and they were terrible sinners, but its like i don't have that majority of the time i feel like i am forcing myself to hate my sins but i really don't, i just hate the bad things that come with sinning. I will continue in the word of God, thank you for your help.

bible1985,

I don't remember if I have asked you this before, but do you attend a local church?

With care in Christ,
Taylor

TaylorOtwell wrote:
bible1985,

I don't remember if I have asked you this before, but do you attend a local church?

With care in Christ,
Taylor

Dont need to be a building but are you a part of a body brother? as brother Taylor seem to also wonder i think this is highly important if not vital, there may be times God leads us through the desert of loneliness for a season but Gods design and plan is a body, and within that body we can comfort and encourage one another every day, reprove and have fellowship, and being guided by godly elders is very important. I also am curious if you are in fellowship with real believers.

Hmmhmm,

Yes, I am part of a local church.

With care in Christ,
Taylor

TaylorOtwell wrote:
Hmmhmm,

Yes, I am part of a local church.

With care in Christ,
Taylor

i know brother Taylor :-) i see i may have worded such that you thought i directed the post to you , sorry it was for bible 1984

Ohh, I see, brother. :-)

Bible1985,

The main reason I ask is that there is a large amount of encouragement and benefit that cannot be obtained through SI. Finding a group of believers to spend time with will be an ecouragement, although I understand finding those people is difficult sometimes.

Also, don't be overly introspective. Rest in Christ's sacrifice. Don't turn conviction of sin into some new law that saves you. Your conviction of sin will grow and mature over time as a believer. Go forth rejoicing in Christ's work. You don't feel convicted enough - welcome to the club. None of us feel convicted enough. Go forth and love your neighbor, not your navel, and rest in Christ's atonement while doing so.

With care in Christ,
Taylor

first baptist church of willow springs, new lenox gospell call church for 1 day, bible study in indiana, you guys on sermon, and my friend robert evcheverria

Hello bible1985,

From what you are writing, it seems to me that you are expecting something like an 'event' where you are *saved.*

Scriptures tell us not to go by our 'feelings' but to go forth in Faith. You are directing your focus on how you feel and not on what the Word of God says. If you continue in this fashion you will keep being blown about in the wind and tossed about like a branch on a stormy sea. Grab hold of the Anchor/ the Rock and you will be saved. Do not take your eyes off of Him. Don't go by your feeble emotions (they will lie to you), Your willful self will try to force you to doubt but continue reading the 4 Gospels and believe. They were written for you, Jesus wants you to come to Him. Stop feeling sorry for yourself and give God the praise He deserves. Praise Him no matter how you 'feel.' Even if it is an effort to say the words, once you do it, it will come easier.

If you feel doubt, say to the devil that you resist him in Jesus' name.

Being saved and following Jesus is much simpler than you are making it. Try doing it His way and see if it doesn't work.

Praying for you,
white stone

Wecannot fully understand God's love. Jesus, who knew God best (you have seen me you have seen the father) refered to God as our Loving father. What a picture of our heavenly father who loves us with a perfect love!
He sees and responds to the inner cry of our heart! He deals with mankind in regards to our heart's desire and if we want his touch and change in our lives he knows that! David prayed, "Lord when you said seek my face my heart said your face will i seek." Because he knew that when he truly called on God He would answwer him every time!
Don't live your days out in fear.....live in Faith in Gods amazing love for you!

thanks deepthinker and belt