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The fact on the rapture scripture interprets scriptures

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I had always been taught and believed in a pre-trib. rapture up until just recently .The change began when God told me I needed to pray more. The 3rd day about 45 min. into prayer God began to speak to me about the deception in the church. The spirit was telling me that the spirit of Babylon was in many churches in America :( Rev. 18:3-4),” For all the nations have drunk the maddening wine of her adulteries. The kings of the Earth committed adultery with her, and the merchants of the Earth grew rich from her excessive luxuries. 4 Then I heard another voice from heaven saying:” come out of her, my people, so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues! The burden was so great I could not bear it; it was like the spiritual wind had been sucked out of me. Then God began to lead me threw end time prophecy and began to show me the events, kingdoms, and leaders unfolding right in front of our eyes. The most alarming part about this whole thing was the over whelming sense that the church was not ready for what was about to happen. As God lead me threw my studies of end time prophecies and current events I began to notice there was no clear promise of being pulled out before trib. in fact there were many very clear warnings of going threw this time. Jesus thought it was so important that in Matt. there are 3 whole chapters devoted to the topic of end times. For instance
Matt. 10:21-22 21"Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 22All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
This scripter is clearly the hour of testing of tribulation. Jesus clearly tells us in v.22,”He who stands firm until the end shall be saved.”

This is not doom and gloom it is the Christian life. In surrender we find freedom, joy, rest and revelation,” the abundant life Jesus came to give.” How much do we really trust Jesus?
John 8:31-32
"If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32Then you will know the truth and the truth will set you free."
If it was important for Peter to know that Jesus was going to require him to walk threw martyrum. Then I believe it is important for us to know if the Lord is going to require us to go threw tribulations. Suppose you believe in a pre-trib. rapture and you find your self in the middle of the most distressful time in history and you are told to take the mark or you or your child’s life will be required. During that moment there can be no questions because if you were wrong in that area you could be wrong in others. This would bring doubt in one of the hardest moments of you life. This is why this issue is very important to me. Peter tells us that false teaching is destructive in 2 Peter 2:1 it has been the devil’s agenda to twist God’s truths and deceive God’s people sense the beginning. All we have to do to see the destructive nature of heresy is look at the fall of man. God has put a burden on my heart to make sure it doesn’t happen at the end also. I hope you see the motivation of my heart,” Love always protects.” John 16:1 Jesus says, “All this I have told you so you will not go astray.
Matthew 24:9-13 (New International Version)
9"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Notice it says many will turn away. Why? Because they were not ready, their faith was shaken; they did not count the cost. Why? Because they thought they would escape the time of tribulations. Also note the love of most will grow cold. If we have not reckoned with this fact we may not have the faith to keep our hearts right, like Steven in Acts 7:60,”Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” Now, once again we see the quote,” but he who stands firm until the end will be saved.”

There are many scriptures to study on this subject and I highly recommend studding this subject in depth. For the sake of time I am now going to shift gears to pinpoint chronological order of what people call the rapture.
The pre-trb rapture was not taught for 1800 years after the death of Christ.

Margaret McDonald, a 15 year old Scottish girl, and member of Edward Irving's congregation, had a
Vision in early 1830 that included a Secret Rapture of believers before the appearance of the Antichrist.
She informed Irving of her visions by letter. Irving then attended the prophecy conferences that began in
Dublin Ireland in 1830 at Powerscourt Castle, where he promoted both Futurism and a Secret Rapture.
John Nelson Darby (1800–1882), a Church of Ireland clergyman, later with the Plymouth Brethren, also
Promoted Futurism and a secret rapture. Darby attended the series of meetings on Bible Prophecy that
Began in 1830 at Powers court, Ireland, and at these conferences Darby apparently learned about the
Secret rapture as revealed by vision to Margaret McDonald and promoted by Edward Irving, and he
Soon visited Margaret MacDonald at her home in Port Glasgow, Scotland. Darby later visited America
Several times between 1859 and 1874, where his Futurist theology was readily accepted.
Cyrus Ingerson Scofield (1843‐1921), greatly influenced by the writings of J. N. Darby, incorporated
Futurism in the notes of his Scofield Reference Bible. First published by Oxford University Press in 1909,
One million copies were printed by 1930. The Scofield Bible was instrumental in firmly establishing the
Futurist interpretation in the Protestant Bible schools of the United States in the 20th century.

Scripture interprets scripture. So we are going to use something I like to call the fence post method that means we are going to use scriptures that talk about the same thing put them together in a manner where they line up with one another. This is an easy way to get the correct interpretation of scripture. There are three things that will give us the ability to identify a time line of the rapture. The 1st is the sun being darkened and the moon turning to blood, the 2nd is the loud command and last trumpet call, and the dead in Christ rising from the dead,

1 Matt.24:29-31
29"Immediately after the distress of those days
”‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'[A]
30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Note v.29 says immediately after the distress of those days putting this event at the end of tribulations. Note the sun and the moon are also listed to be after the distress of those days in Mark 13:24 Luke 21:24-25 and in Rev. 6:11-12 in all of these scriptures it shows us after the3 ½ years of persecution, then the sun and the moon, then Christ will appear and gather his people .A good study note is the 6th seal, trumpet, and bowl are all chronologically at the end of tribulations. The 7th of all three are the last judgment executed by Jesus at Armageddon. The end of the 31/2 years of persecution, the 2nd coming of Christ and the gathering of the elect, 2 witnesses or the resurrection of the saints show us the seals trumpets and bowls run concurrently or at the same time.

Mark 13:23-27 (New International Version)
23So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time.
24"But in those days, following that distress,
”‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
25the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'[A]
26"At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.
Luke 21:24-28
24They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
25"There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26Men will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."
Revelation 6:9-7:10
9When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" 11Then each of them was given a white robe and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.
12I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
15Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"
Revelation 7
144,000 Sealed
1After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3"Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God." 4Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
5From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
6from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
7from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
8from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.
The Great Multitude in White Robes
9After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice:
"Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb."


We have already heard the terms gather, a loud command and a trumpet call and the coming of the Lord. Let us look at the trumpet call and commanded. In 1st Corinthians 15:49-54 Paul tells us the rapture happens at the last trumpet call. Paul also gives us a lot of detail on the purpose of this event,

1 Corinthians 13:10
but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears.

When we see Jesus His appearance changes us. We receive our glorified bodies.


1 Corinthians 15:49-54 (New International Version)
49And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we[a] bear the likeness of the man from heaven.
50I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, and then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."[b]
There are two things in this section of scripture that are time line identifiers :( The last trumpet and the dead will be raised imperishable.) Keep in mind it list the dead first then us afterwards this is important for time line. Before we go to revelations let’s look at 1 Thess.4:15-17.


1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (New International Version)
15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.


I want you to note Paul emphasis is on we who are still alive at the coming of the Lord will certainly not precede those who are dead and that Paul said they got this information from Jesus Himself. Now let’s look at Rev.11:11-15 for the last trumpet and Rev. 20:4-6 for the resurrection of the saints.
Revelation 11:10-15 (New International Version)
10The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.
11But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. 12Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.
13At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon.
The Seventh Trumpet
15The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ,
and he will reign for ever and ever."

Not only is the 7th trumpet at the end of tribulations but another time identifying fact is that the two prophets are given power to prophesy the whole time the saints are persecuted according to Rev.11:2-3 The 31/2 years definitely puts the rapture at the end of trib. We also see the 2 witnesses or the 2 prophets, the saints and the elect all go at the same time. The events all match perfectly.
Revelation 11:2-3 (New International Version)
2But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. 3And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth."


Remember Thess. 4:15-17 and 1 Cor. 15:49-54 both said the dead in Christ would raise first. Let’s see if we can find the dead rising Rev.20:4-6
Revelation 20:4-6 (New International Version)
4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
About half way threw v.4 you see the souls of those who had been for the testimony of Jesus .So the soul are in heaven but it says they are raised to life and in v. 5 it says this is the first resurrection. They were given their immortal bodies and after that so shall we who are still alive be given our immortal bodies. Then we will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air .This is when Christ is coming down to throw the false prophet and antichrist in the lake of fire.” The 7th judgment, the END.”

All of Rev. is written to the churches and for the churches.
Revelation 22:16 (New International Version)
16"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you[a] this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."
I think we would do well to take it to heart
.
Rev.1:3 blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.
John 21:17-19 (New International Version)
17 The third time he said to him, "Simon son of John, do you love me?"
Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, "Do you love me?" He said, "Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you."
Jesus said, "Feed my sheep. 18 I tell you the truth, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go." 19Jesus said this to indicate the kind of death by which Peter would glorify God. Then he said to him, "Follow me!"
In His service. Ezekiel 33:6

C
Christinyou

Gaebelein's Annoted Bible
Matthew 24:1

CHAPTER 24

12. The Olivet Discourse; the King Reveals the Future of the Kingdom. Chapters 24-25.
1. The Destruction of the Temple Foretold. 24:1-2.
2. The Questions of the Disciples. 24:3.
3. The End of the Age; Events Preceding His Coming. 24:4-14.
4. The Great Tribulation and what will Happen. 24:15-26.
5. The Visible and Glorious Return of the King. 24:27-31.
6. The Exhortations of the King. 24:32-44.
7. The Parable of the Faithful and Evil Servant. 24:45-51.
The Olivet discourse is the last great utterance of the King. It was delivered to the disciples and concerns the future. It is divided into three parts: First, He answers the three questions of His disciples (verses 4-44); then He speaks three parables (45-25:30); the last part contains a great judgment prophecy (chapter 25:31-46). The first part concerns the end of the age, and in it the King describes what will take place on earth immediately before His visible Return. The second part reveals the conditions in the Kingdom of heaven (Christendom) and how He as King and Judge will deal with those conditions. The third part is a prophecy concerning the judgment of the nations the King finds on His return to this earth. (It is impossible to give satisfactory annotations of this great and important discourse in a small pamphlet. The readers will find the complete exposition in our Commentary on Matthew.)

The first part has nothing to do with the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem. Jerusalem and the temple are not even mentioned by Him. The interpretation that all His predictions in verses 4-44 found their fulfillment during the siege of Jerusalem in the year 70 is totally wrong. The destruction of the temple is foretold by Him in verse 2 before the disciples asked the questions, which resulted in His discourse. Luke reports the destruction of Jerusalem and the scattering of the nation (Lu 21:20-24). But in Matthew the Holy Spirit records the regathering of His elect, earthly people (verse 31). Nor does the answer of the Lord to His disciples have anything to do with this Christian age. The church is not mentioned by Him at all. The disciples had asked about the end of the age. (Again we remind the students of this Gospel that the word "world" is incorrect. The end of the world cannot come for a long time. Before the end of the world can come this earth must first be put in order and delivered from the curse.) They only knew their Jewish age and were ignorant of this Christian age. The Jewish age did not fully terminate with the rejection of the Messiah and the worldwide dispersion of the nation. It was only interrupted in its course. The interruption is this present Christian age during which the church is gathered out. When that purpose is accomplished, the true church will be removed from the earth to be joined to the Head in glory. Then the dealings of God with His ancient people Israel will be resumed. The end of their age of unbelief ends. It will last seven years, the last week of the great prophecy of Daniel (Chapter 9, see our commentary on Daniel).

It is this end, these seven years still future which our Lord describes in the first part of His discourse. True it is that throughout the age in which we live all these things He mentions, wars, earthquakes, famines, pestilences, persecutions of the godly have taken place. All these will occur in a more intensified form during the end of the age, when the true church is no longer on earth. Then the remnant of Jews who believe, like the disciples of the King when He appeared the first time, will preach the Gospel of the Kingdom among all nations. In Re 7 we find this remnant sealed and in the second half the result of the preached testimony, a multitude which comes out of the great tribulation.

When these seven years are ended the King appears in all His Glory in the clouds of heaven. For the church and His Saints there is another Coming (1Th 4:13-18). The Saints come with Him in that day (Zec 14:1-5).

Verse 34 has been a difficulty with many. The word generation does not mean the people who were then living; it has the meaning of "this race." (Same as 1Pe 2:9, "a chosen generation," i.e., class of peoples.) The Jewish race cannot pass away till these things be fulfilled.

With verse 45 the second part begins. It concerns Christendom. While the seven parables of the Kingdom (chapter 13) teach the beginning, the development and end of Christendom, the three parables of the Olivet discourse show the moral aspect of those who profess Christianity. The true and the false, the faithful and the unfaithful are uncovered and dealt with.

in Christ: By His Incorruptable Seed birthed in the believer. These are Heavenly places in Christ, a sphere of living now on this earth and also with Christ, who is our new nature. Not earthly but heavenly, you cannot commingle earthly and heavenly. Christ will reign over an earthly Kingdom on earth for 1000 years. The Body of Christ is not earthly, but heavenly creatures in Christ and we will rule with Him from His Throne, which is Davids earthly throne and Christs' heavenly throne on earth, acquired by His Father's promise. The earth and the gentiles and Jews hearing the King Himself speak and sending His sharp two edged sword out of His mouth to evangelize the world that is left after the tribulation and He will use the 144,000 sealed of Israel to do this and the Heavenly Host, His Body the Bride and His Church are ruling and reigning with Him from the New Jerusalem come down out of Heaven and He and the Father are the light of it.

In Christ: by Birthright a son of God: Phillip

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One of the biggest problems I have a pre. Trib. rapture is it was never taught until 1830 by a 15 year old girl and it was never taught by any of the apostles or any one else for 1800 years after Jesus’ death. So after extensive study on my own not listening to some one else’s interpretation but listening to the Holy Spirit. The reason I say that is if some one is taught wrong and they teach another they both fall in a ditch.
1 John 2:27
27As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.

The reason I changed my stance from pre. Trib. to post trib. The clear and transparent statements made by Jesus that we would be handed over to be persecuted and put to death .the many times Jesus said he who enders until the end. Some very clear statements by Paul about us certainly not preceding the dead in Christ. Many statements saying this would happen at the second coming that the bible clearly states is after the trib. persecution of the saints. No where can I find any clear scripture about being spared persecution. Infact bible promises persecution.

You see the whole problem was I just took some one else’s interpretation on this mater .When I began to study it out on my own I saw clearly there was no pre. Trib. rapture. Then when I studied the history I found out it was accepted and printed in the Snowfield reference bible then was widely accepted in protestant seminary in America from 1906-1930 ,1,000,000 copies were printed by Oxford University. This is some info. On some of the people who worked with that project and their change of mind.


SPIRITUAL PREPAREDNESS
I am sure that with the true child of God it is not a question of preference but of truth. Does God’s Word say so? Why then rebel? Is not His plan best? Besides, what difference does it make so long as we are ready? "Spiritual Preparedness" is the only important factor after all.
I wonder if we have been lulling the Church into a false security. Can it be that we have been preaching an easy escape? Ought we to prepare the Church for the greatest of all ordeals? Should not our teaching harden her for the fires of the Tribulation? What kind of soldiers are we training? I am afraid that we have been very guilty and that God will certainly hold us responsible for the type of Christian our preaching is producing. We need men and women today of the martyr spirit. The test of the Inquisition is coming again and woe betide the pre-millennialists who are not ready. The Church must be purified in the fires of persecution.
Naturally, I thought of 2 Thessalonians 2:7: "he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way". But then I learned from the Greek that the second "he" is the Antichrist, and that the Greek does not say "taken out of the way," but "revealed in the midst," or, "born out of the midst." In other words, lawlessness will be restrained until the appointed time for the lawless one, the Antichrist, to appear. There is no mention of the Holy Spirit at all. That is a Scofield Bible assumption. The Holy Spirit and the Church remain to the end of the Age.
VOICES OF OTHERS
Now if I were to go into the subject in detail and attempt to deal with the numerous passages, both for and against, I would simply be overlapping. Others have already done this most ably, far better than I can, and so, if you are really interested, I would suggest that you secure the books that have been written on the subject and study them prayerfully and with an open mind before taking sides. A great many have been written by men on both sides of the Atlantic. The following are among the best that have been published in Great Britain and you may procure most of them from THE SOVEREIGN GRACE ADVENT TESTIMONY, I DONALD WAY, CHELMSFORD, ESSEX, CM2 9JB, the organization that publishes the Post-Tribulation magazine Watching and Waiting, edited by James Payne.
Here are the books:
Will the Church Escape the Great Tribulation? (by Edmund Shackleton); Christ’s Second Coming (by S. P. Tregelles) [these two are scarce]; Our Lord Cometh (by W. J. Rowlands); The Coming of the Son of Man (by Rev. E. J. Poole-Connor); The Second Advent of our Lord, Not Secret, but in Manifested Glory (by B. W. Newton); One Second Coming of Christ (by W. J. Rowlands); The First Resurrection (by S. P. Tregelles); Touching the Coming of the Lord (by Dan Crawford); The Saints’ Rest and Rapture (by Frank H. White); The Second Coming of Christ (by George Muller). Send for their catalogue.
The following have been published in North America: The Blessed Hope (by Professor George E. Ladd). Dr. Ladd teaches in Fuller Theological Seminary, Pasadena. It is a masterly volume and it goes into both the history and doctrine of both the Pre-Tribulation and the Post-Tribulation Advent. "Will Christ’s Coming he in two stages?" (by Norman F. Douty).
I have a list of nearly seventy Bible Teachers who have proclaimed this view of the Return of Christ. Among them, in addition to those who have written the above books, there are such names as W. J. Erdman, Charles R. Erdman. Dr. Campbell Morgan, Bishop Frank Houghton, Dr. A. B. Simpson, Dr. J. W. Thirtle, Dr. Charles T. Cook, Alexander Reese, Dr. Horatius Bonar, Dr. Adolph Saphir, Henry Varley, Dr. Nathaniel West, David Baron, H. W. Soltau, Dr. Bergin, Dr. Harold J. Ockenga, and many others. To ignore the convictions of such spiritual leaders is impossible. Deference must be given to their views
"For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?" - 1 Corinthians 14:8

THE TRUTH OR CONJECTURE: YOU DECIDE

In this cursory article we have briefly examined how the pretribulation theory requires 1) a coming, 2) a rapture and 3) a resurrection all prior to the prescribed time clearly set forth in the Holy Scriptures. It is up to pretribulationists to decide whether or not they are going to continue attempting to squeeze the Word of God through the filter of prejudicial conjecture or simply believe the Bible for what it says. In the words of the late W.J. Erdman, the third pastor of Moody Church in Chicago who was once a pretribulationist and an editor of the Scofield Reference Bible before a "further searching of the Scriptures" convinced him otherwise: "Better the disappointment of truth than the fair but false promises of error."

"Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." (2 Timothy 2:15)

THE GREAT EXPECTATION

I find it extraordinary that throughout the Bible there is only one hope and one glorious coming ever expected at the end of the age, whether it be from the scroll of the prophet Isaiah to the Book of the Revelation of John, from the Olivet Discourse to the angelic announcement after the ascension, or from Enoch the seventh from Adam to the letters of the dear Apostle Paul. There is but one event described, and only one event ever anticipated. That one event is our blessed hope, the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

May we never lose sight of the Church's great expectation.

Written by Eli Brayley
"And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come." - 1 Thessalonians 1:10

One of the common arguments used to support a pretribulational rapture is the belief that since the Bible says God's people are not appointed unto wrath (1 Thessalonians 1:10, 5:9) then the Church will therefore not go through the great tribulation, which, they claim, is characterized by the pouring out of the wrath of God (Revelation 15:1, 16:1). If God pours His wrath out upon the world during the final years of mankind, then the Church cannot be there. This reasoning has influenced many Christians into a false hope, for the argument is based upon a complete misunderstanding of the Greek language and the nature of the wrath of God.


TWO KINDS OF WRATH

It all sounds good until a more careful examination of the Greek word for 'wrath' is accomplished. In the New Testament, there are two distinct Greek words for our English word 'wrath': orge and thumos, just like there are different Greek words for our English word 'love'. Both words for 'wrath' have a very distinct meaning, and must not be confused with each other.

-Orge is defined as judiciary wrath, or retributive wrath, being punishment for crimes as implemented by a judge.

-Thumos is defined as passionate anger that flares up but after subsides.

An example of the word thumos can be found in Galatians 5 verse 20, "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath [thumos], strife, seditions, heresies..." Paul is not speaking about justice, but passionate rage. Another example is in Acts 19:28, "And when they heard these sayings, they were full of wrath [thumos], and cried out, saying, Great is Diana of the Ephesians." Notice that the wrath here spoken is not a justifiable wrath against transgression, but the flaring up of anger that comes from passionate emotion. When someone says they have a bad temper, they are talking about this thumos wrath, not the retributive wrath of calculated justice. The word thumos is only found 18 times in the New Testament and always describes this passionate type of wrath.

Orge wrath can be clearly seen in Romans 2:5-6, "But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath [orge] against the day of wrath [orge] and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds." Here the wrath of God is portrayed as judiciary righteous judgment against the ungodly. Orge wrath is directly connected to transgressing the law of God: "Because the law worketh wrath [orge]: for where no law is, there is no transgression." (Romans 4:15) Sin deserves punishment, and that punishment is the orge wrath of God. The word orge is used 36 times in the New Testament and virtually always refers to the righteous legal judgment of God.


WHICH WRATH?

Now let us return to our immediate question. The pretribulationists claim that since God's people are not appointed unto wrath, we shall not experience the wrath of God poured out upon the world during the great tribulation as described in Revelation 15:1 and 16:1. With our new knowledge of Greek terminology, let's examine the key passages of Scripture used in their argument:

1 Thessalonians 1:10 - "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come." The word 'wrath' here is orge, the judiciary judgment of God against sin. Praise God that we are indeed saved through the Blood of Christ from the retributive wrath of God when His righteous judgments shall be revealed! "Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath [orge] through him." (Romans 5:9) Hallelujah! We are justified in His sight!

1 Thessalonians 5:9 - "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ." Again, the word used here is orge. Like in the verse above, Jesus has redeemed us from the punishment we deserved for our transgressions against the law of God! "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us." (Galatians 3:13) Through our faith in what Christ has done we shall obtain salvation from the wages of sin. As John the Baptist said, "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath [orge] of God abideth on him." (John 3:36)

Revelation 15:1 - "And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God." Proceeding from the beginning of chapter 15 to the end of chapter 16, the vials of wrath are poured out upon the earth by the seven angels of God. Since this takes place before Jesus returns and during the great tribulation, the pretribulationists assert that the Church cannot be present, for they are not appointed unto orge wrath. What they have failed to see is that the word 'wrath' used here and throughout these two chapters is not orge wrath at all, but thumos wrath, the hot anger of God being demonstrated against a wicked world PRIOR TO the revelation of Jesus Christ, when He at last comes to tread "the winepress of the fierceness and wrath [orge] of Almighty God." (Revelation 19:15) When Jesus comes He shall judge the earth for all it's wickedness, bringing with Him the righteous retributive judgment of God against His enemies. He shall separate the wheat and the tares, and cast all those who obeyed not the Gospel into the Lake of Fire which burns for ever and ever. That, my dear readers, is the true orge wrath of God, of which we are saved from, and of which we are not appointed to. The thumos wrath of God is something entirely different.


FURTHER ANALYSIS

God's wrath has been displayed all throughout history and will again be unleashed upon a wicked God-hating world in the last days; this is not surprising. But we are not to confuse God's thumos wrath with His orge wrath. When the Lord poured out the plagues upon Egypt in the days of Moses and Aaron, that was His thumos wrath; the passionate anger of the Lord expressed against that hardhearted and tyrannical nation, who oppressed His beloved people for 400 years. We must also remember that when God was pouring out the plagues upon Egypt, the children of Israel were preserved safely throughout it all. Likewise, during the great tribulation when the vials are poured out upon the earth, God's people will be protected safely throughout it all. When God closed the Red Sea over top of the pursuing Egyptian army, that was His thumos wrath bringing an end to the captivity of Israel. The Egyptians experienced God's thumos wrath when the waters toppled over them, but they experienced God's orge wrath when they lifted up their eyes in hell. In the same way, this sinful world will undergo God's thumos wrath against it during the great tribulation, and also when Jesus Christ physically destroys them at His coming, but this is nothing to be compared with the orge wrath men will experience when Jesus Christ sits upon the throne of eternal judgment. Oh Lord, God save us from that dreadful day!


C
ChrisJD

Hi everyone.


dmoney, how are you?


I was wondering isn't this the same thing that you posted in another thread just recently?


If I'm not mistaken, these topics have been discussed many times on the forums and I think someone else mentioned that also in the other thread.


Also, if you would allow me to ask, please consider this if you are new here and also that it would be polite and gracious to consider how and what we introduce for discussion when we are new among people we know nothing about.


Thank you for your time,


Chris

S
sermonindex

I did not think I was being rude. Some of the stuff I posted was copied from another article, but I thought it was good info. Sorry if I came across wrong my intention was to educate and to be educated. I am also committed to walking in our Lords command to love and love is definitely not rude, I am very zealous about following our Lord in love and this leads me to the next purpose of posting this, love always protects. I believe pre . trib. is teaching escapism and is doing great harm to the body of Christ. Do we really believe that God would require all these new born; baby Christians to walk threw the hardest time in history with out any mature leadership? I believe this view point is a selfish view point and is contradictory to God’s nature which is love and love is never self seeking .I believe a pri .trib. view point is motivated in self preservation which is in direct conflict to the Lord’s command because there is no greater love than to lay ones life down for another. I know I would not have made it in tribulations as a new believer, but 18 years of being saved I am much more mature. I know nothing will shake me because love always perseveres, that’s why love never fails because love never gives up. So after many years of stumbling and getting back up, walking through the fire of tribulation of life and relationship. Growing from faith to faith I can now say I know I will trust God threw any situation. Trust or faith comes from knowing someone for a long time and we build trust or go from faith to faith. God has always asked mature believers to go threw the hard test. I for one am signed up to help lead this multitude of new believers threw the tribulations. Love never fails. No greater love does a man have than he lay down his life for his friends.


"For if the trumpet gives an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?" - 1 Corinthians 14:8

Joshua 1
6 "Be strong and courageous, because you will lead these people to inherit the land I swore to their forefathers to give them. 7 Be strong and very courageous. Be careful to obey all the law my servant Moses gave you; do not turn from it to the right or to the left, that you may be successful wherever you go. 8 Do not let this Book of the Law depart from your mouth; meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do everything written in it. Then you will be prosperous and successful. 9 Have I not commanded you? Be strong and courageous. Do not be terrified; do not be discouraged, for the LORD your God will be with you wherever you go."


John 13:1
[Jesus Washes His Disciples' Feet] it was just before the Passover Feast. Jesus knew that the time had come for him to leave this world and go to the Father. Having loved his own who were in the world, he now showed them the full extent of his love.


Daniel 11:33-35
33 "Those who are wise will instruct many, though for a time they will fall by the sword or be burned or captured or plundered. 34 When they fall, they will receive a little help, and many who are not sincere will join them. 35 Some of the wise will stumble, so that they may be refined, purified and made spotless until the TIME OF THE END, for it will still come at the appointed time.
Christians are made for hard times. All of the apostles when they reached maturity laid their lives down. Not immature Christians but mature Christians. The bible tells us that this glorified God. I know people don’t want to hear this. It takes great faith to believe God for strength to walk threw the tribulation. I would rather us count the cost now than be caught off guard later.\t

17 The third time he said to him, "Simon son of John, do you love me?"
Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, "Do you love me?" He said, "Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you."
Jesus said, "Feed my sheep. 18 I tell you the truth, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go." 19Jesus said this to indicate the kind of DEATH by which Peter would GLORIFY God. Then he said to him, "FOLLOW ME!"
Revelation 12:11
11They overcame him
by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony;
they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death.

The church that shrinks back from death will not overcome.

Revelation 21:7-8 (New International Version)
HE WHO OVER COMES will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8BUT THE COWARDLY AND THE UNBELEAVING, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
My intention is not to be rude but I along with a lot of other pastors an over whelming since that the church is not ready and judgment must come according to the word.


Ezekiel :14
1 Some of the elders of Israel came to me and sat down in front of me. 2 Then the word of the LORD came to me: 3 "Son of man, these men have set up idols in their hearts and put wicked stumbling blocks before their faces. Should I let them inquire of me at all? 4 Therefore speak to them and tell them, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: When any Israelite sets up idols in his heart and puts a wicked stumbling block before his face and then goes to a prophet, I the LORD will answer him myself in keeping with his great idolatry. 5 I will do this to recapture the hearts of the people of Israel, who have all deserted me for their idols.'
6 "Therefore say to the house of Israel, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Repent! Turn from your idols and renounce all your detestable practices!
7 " 'When any Israelite or any alien living in Israel separates himself from me and sets up idols in his heart and puts a wicked stumbling block before his face and then goes to a prophet to inquire of me, I the LORD will answer him myself. 8 I will set my face against that man and make him an example and a byword. I will cut him off from my people. Then you will know that I am the LORD.
9 " 'And if the prophet is enticed to utter a prophecy, I the LORD have enticed that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand against him and destroy him from among my people Israel. 10 They will bear their guilt—the prophet will be as guilty as the one who consults him. 11 Then the people of Israel will no longer stray from me, nor will they defile themselves anymore with all their sins. They will be my people, and I will be their God, declares the Sovereign LORD.' "
Judgment Inescapable
12 The word of the LORD came to me: 13 "Son of man, if a country sins against me by being unfaithful and I stretch out my hand against it to cut off its food supply and send famine upon it and kill its men and their animals, 14 even if these three men—Noah, Daniel [a] and Job—were in it, they could save only themselves by their righteousness, declares the Sovereign LORD.
15 "Or if I send wild beasts through that country and they leave it childless and it becomes desolate so that no one can pass through it because of the beasts, 16 as surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, even if these three men were in it, they could not save their own sons or daughters. They alone would be saved, but the land would be desolate.
17 "Or if I bring a sword against that country and say, 'Let the sword pass throughout the land,' and I kill its men and their animals, 18 as surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, even if these three men were in it, they could not save their own sons or daughters. They alone would be saved.
19 "Or if I send a plague into that land and pour out my wrath upon it through bloodshed, killing its men and their animals, 20 as surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, even if Noah, Daniel and Job were in it, they could save neither son nor daughter. They would save only themselves by their righteousness.
21 "For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: How much worse will it be when I send against Jerusalem my four dreadful judgments—sword and famine and wild beasts and plague—to kill its men and their animals! 22 Yet there will be some survivors—sons and daughters who will be brought out of it. They will come to you, and when you see their conduct and their actions, you will be consoled regarding the disaster I have brought upon Jerusalem—every disaster I have brought upon it. 23 You will be consoled when you see their conduct and their actions, for you will know that I have done nothing in it without CAUSE, declares the Sovereign LORD."

PEOPLE GET READY IN LOVE HIS SERVENT!!!!!!!

L
Lysa

ChrisJD wrote:
If I'm not mistaken, these topics have been discussed many times on the forums and I think someone else mentioned that also in the other thread.


Also, if you would allow me to ask, please consider this if you are new here and also that it would be polite and gracious to consider how and what we introduce for discussion when we are new among people we know nothing about.


dmoney wrote:
I did not think I was being rude. Some of the stuff I posted was copied from another article, but I thought it was good info. Sorry if I came across wrong my intention was to educate and to be educated.

dmoney,

ChrisJD must have been having a bad day (as I have had before and bit others heads off!). This board is free and after you register, you can post anything you want to within reason.

Yes there are many discussions on this topic and you know what? I would post in depth on this article but I am finishing up a college class this week. I love this topic! I just haven't had time to post.

Don't let one person discourage you. If they disagree with you, of course they're going to be grumpy and not happy with your topic!! They'll get over it as I would if someone posted how much they loved pre-trib!! LOL
:-P

God bless you brother,

P
psalm1

quote'
"One of the biggest problems I have a pre. Trib. rapture is it was never taught until 1830 by a 15 year old girl and it was never taught by any of the apostles or any one else for 1800 years after Jesus’ death.

This has been disproved.

The rapture is a catching away of the bride and the dead in Christ.

Look at what we know.
White horses
Marriage supper
Rapture
Bride
Bridegroom
heaven

I didnt see the white horses,the bride,the bridegroom,or the marriage supper addressed in your teaching.
In fact I have never seen this issue brought up by a post-trib scholar,only rebutted.

Consider the false hoods of accusations;
Pretrib not taught by the early church..... Debunked
Little girls dream ..... Debunked
Pretribbers only use books and helps .. Debunked
pretribbers not ready ... TOTALLY unscriptural
pretribbers don't believe the church is persecuted.... Absolutely false

This is off the top of my head and has been pointed out....TO NO AVAIL!!!

It is the core of the post trib doctrine!!

quote;
" The Church must be purified in the fires of persecution."

Unscriptural. The word is clear we are cleansed by the blood


quote;
"No where can I find any clear scripture about being spared persecution. "

Luke 21:36
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

The whole end time is centered on the bride and bridegroom.
Post trib centers on tribulation

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sermonindex

One of the biggest problems I have a pre. Trib. rapture is it was never taught until 1830 by a 15 year old girl and it was never taught by any of the apostles or any one else for 1800 years after Jesus’ death.

I was going to say... this is absolutely untrue, and has been debunked over and over again. Pre-Trib Rapture doctrine springs up repeatidly all down thru church history, and greater minds than mine have documented this fact.

There are a lot of things being repeated in the church today that are baseless and lies. Just look at some of the ridiculous things that are thrown around by BOTH sides of the Bible version issue.

Just because we heard someone prominent say something, it doesn't mean that the child of God should just accept it.

Trust no one. Thats always been my motto when it comes to doctrine. Always weigh it against scripture.

" The Church must be purified in the fires of persecution."

This smacks of a Catholic line of thought. We must proove ourselves worthy... uh, no we don't. We can never be worthy. I am righteous right now, but not by anything I have done... but by His blood covering of my sin. It is Christ who is righteous in me.

Krispy

C
Christinyou

I see no tribulation in relation to Christ and His Church, His Bride. He already took all our stripes on Himself and has already taken death upon Himself that we might live, not in persecution from the Father but in Love and new life unto God. We learn obedience by the things we suffer from the Father now, not future persecution and tribulation. We are not son's if we are spared discipline now, that He might present us to Himself, we might be presented to Jesus Christ as His Bride without spot or wrinkle. How are we to live now? In reference to each other now and Christ and the Father now, we are to live in Love, now, not waiting for future tribulation to purify us, that was already done on the Cross and is being done now by the cleansing of the "washing of water, with the Word." The Word is Christ and He is now, cleansing His own body the Church, for He does not hate Himself, but He is perfect to the Father as We are by His Husbandship and Lordship and Lambship, NOW. He died, we died, He was put in the ground, we were put in the ground, He is resurrected, we are resurrected to new life in Christ Himself, unto the Father, we are perfect in Christ, He ascended unto the Father as we in Him have ascended unto the Father and now are seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus, This is our sphere of living, NOW, Gal 2:20, not future living in the greatest tribulation the world has ever seen, "the world", our sphere of living is not of this world or in this world. Why would God have to put His Son's Bride through the tribulation, He has already cleansed Her and is making Her ready for the Lambs wedding feast, whom we are already betrothed to and only waiting for the Bridegroom to come and get us and take us to the Father's house, "so shall we ever be with the Lord", therefore comfort one another with these words".

Ephesians 5:21-33 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God. Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

Jesus does love His Bride, His wife, as Himself, as we should reverence Him as our Husband and each other as co-heirs with Christ, who has Made His Father, "our Father."

In Christ: Phillip

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sermonindex


Christinyou wrote:
I see no tribulation in relation to Christ and His Church, His Bride. He already took all our stripes on Himself and has already taken death upon Himself that we might live, not in persecution from the Father but in Love and new life unto God. We learn obedience by the things we suffer from the Father now, not future persecution and tribulation. We are not son's if we are spared discipline now, that He might present us to Himself, we might be presented to Jesus Christ as His Bride without spot or wrinkle. How are we to live now?

Philip, how is it that you feel that we will not see persecution when a great number in this world have suffered under it from the beginning?

Persecution does not have to be "discipline" - but The WORD does speak of being "tried" -

[b]Dan 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

Dan 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 20:4-6 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. [/b]

If you can't preach that in China or anywhere else that they are persecuting Christians & tribulation is the Saint's daily lot now, then it shouldn't be preached anywhere, as Nee had said as well.

We're One Body with "them" as well.

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Jesus_is_God,

I agree that there has always been persecution and tribulation. That is precisely the point. There has ALWAYS been enormous amounts of tribulation against the Body of Christ that comes at the hand of devilish men. But these are just men.

The "Great Tribulation" will be different in that it will be GOD Himself who will be pouring out the tribulation. The wrath that He has been storing up with be poured out upon the entire Earth. Men will not be afraid of mere death. Rather, they will be crying out for mountains to fall upon them and cover them from the face of the Creator of all things. This is tribulation that the world has never seen.

Persecution and tribulation that comes from the hands of men is almost pointless. To live is Christ and to die, after all, is gain.

I would like to know what people think will seperate the period of the "Great Tribulation" from the tribulation of the early Church -- where people were crucified, fed to lions, tortured beyond belief and even torn in half? Yet the Scriptures indicate that this period will be different. If persecution-induced tribulation has always been around, then what makes this time so terrible?

I believe that it is the wrath of God.

I also lean toward a belief that God has promised to keep us FROM (not during, or in) that hour of trial (Revelation 3:10).

S
sermonindex

Hi Chris.

You said: [i]"I agree that there has always been persecution and tribulation."[/i]

I was replying to Philip's post here -


Jesus-is-GOD wrote:


Christinyou wrote:
I see no tribulation in relation to Christ and His Church, His Bride. He already took all our stripes on Himself and has already taken death upon Himself that we might live, not in persecution from the Father but in Love and new life unto God. We learn obedience by the things we suffer from the Father now, not future persecution and tribulation. We are not son's if we are spared discipline now, that He might present us to Himself, we might be presented to Jesus Christ as His Bride without spot or wrinkle. How are we to live now?

Philip, how is it that you feel that we will not see persecution when a great number in this world have suffered under it from the beginning?

Persecution does not have to be "discipline" - but The WORD does speak of being "tried" -

[b]Dan 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

Dan 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 20:4-6 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. [/b]

If you can't preach that in China or anywhere else that they are persecuting Christians & tribulation is the Saint's daily lot now, then it shouldn't be preached anywhere, as Nee had said as well.

We're One Body with "them" as well.


I understand your question. I believe these Scriptures above are about "those days."

I believe "The Wrath of GOD" is not until Chpt 15, with The Vials, that come after the last trump.

Rev 15:1 , Rev 15:7 , Rev 16:1

There are some of us who believe that most of what we call the tribulation is the wrath of satan working through man.

We're not all going to agree here on this - but my main point to Philip was - we will see persecution & what most call tribulation and I don't think i've met anyone yet, whether they be Pre or Post trib that disagrees on that as he did.

S
sermonindex

Would you mind explaining this one sentence?

Persecution and tribulation that comes from the hands of men is almost pointless.

Not according to Rev 20:4-6

Here is A.T. Robertson on Rev 3:10

[b]Rev 3:10

Patience (hupomenēs). “Endurance” as in Rev_13:10; Rev_14:12 as also in 2Th_3:5.

Thou didst keep (etērēsas) - I also will keep (kagō tērēsō). Aorist active indicative and future active corresponding to each other. For a like play on the tenses of this verb by Christ see Joh_17:6 (tetērēkan), Joh_17:11 (tērēson), Joh_17:12 (etēroun).

[i]From the hour of trial (ek tēs hōras tou peirasmou). [u]This use of ek after tēreō in John 17:15[/u], apo in Jam_1:27. Trial brings temptation often (Jam_1:2, Jam_1:13). Jesus endured (Heb_12:1.) and he will [u]help[/u] them. [/i]

Which is to come (tēs mellousēs erchesthai). Agreeing with hōras (feminine), not with peirasmou (masculine).

Upon the whole world (epi tēs epoikoumenēs holēs). The inhabited earth (gēs) as in Rev_12:9; Luk_2:1; Act_16:6, etc.), not the physical earth, but the world of men as explained by the next clause.

To try (peirasai). First aorist active infinitive of purpose from peirazō, probably to tempt (cf. the demons in 9:1-21), not merely to afflict (Rev_2:10).

That dwell upon the earth (tous katoikountas epi tēs gēs). Present active articular participle of katoikeō, explaining “the whole world” just before.

"keep" from Rev 3:10 G5083 τηρέω

Thayer Definition:
1) to attend to carefully, take care of
1a) to guard
1b) metaphorically to keep, one in the state in which he is
1c) to observe
1d) to reserve: to undergo something

_____________________________________

Editing to add Strong's

G5083
τηρέω
tēreō
tay-reh'-o
From τηρός teros (a watch; perhaps akin to G2334); to guard (from loss or injury, properly by keeping the eye upon; and thus differing from G5442, which is properly to prevent escaping; and from G2892, which implies a fortress or full military lines of apparatus), that is, to note (a prophecy; figuratively to fulfil a command); by implication to detain (in custody; figuratively to maintain); by extension to withhold (for personal ends; figuratively to keep unmarried): - hold fast, keep (-er), (ob-, pre-, re) serve, watch.[/b]

S
sermonindex

Rather than debate or argue over the timing of this resurrection, I wondered, wouldn't it just be best to ready ourselves for "Anything" ?

I believe that is what Corrie Ten Boom tried very hard to get across to us.


I just picked these Pages up today. Very Encouraging.

[b]Topical Index of Scriptures [/b]

http://www.crossroad.to/HisWord/verses/topics/1-index.htm

[b]Preparing for Victory[/b]

http://www.crossroad.to/Victory/contents.htm

[b]Sermons & Devotional Messages [/b]

http://www.crossroad.to/Bible_studies/sermons/devotions/contents.htm

[b]Preparing for Persecution[/b]

http://www.crossroad.to/Persecution/persecute.html

[b]The Secret of Abundant Life[/b]

http://www.crossroad.to/Bible_studies/Beatitudes/contents.html

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ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Jesus_is_God,

Would you mind explaining this one sentence?

Quote:
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Persecution and tribulation that comes from the hands of men is almost pointless.

I don't mean that it is pointless. I suppose that was a poor choice of words. However, what I am trying to say is that persecution and tribulation is nothing to fret about when we realize TO DIE IS GAIN. The Lord instructed us not to fear he who can kill your body (Matthew 10:28). Persecution and tribulations will certainly come -- and we should endure through such things. Yet this is at the hands of men...and not God.

The point, once again, is that we should be very careful to point out that all of this hypothesizing is from our OWN UNDERSTANDING of what we think that the Scriptures are saying about how the end will come. Right now, we are seeing through a "glass darkly." I fear that some of the people who are so preoccupied with just how the end will come about are missing the purpose of the Lord's instruction in Acts 1:6-8. Yes, we should watch for the Lord's return -- but like a Bride who is waiting for her Groom's return.

Is it possible that neither the Bride nor the Groom know the time regarding when the Groom will return to take His Bride -- because this is all in the Father's timing?

:-)

S
sermonindex

Hi Chris.

I believe [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=28564&forum=34&1] these two by J. C. Ryle[/url] would answer better than me.


And listening to [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=668]Corrie.[/url]


Ready for anything. ;-)

L
Lysa

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
I also lean toward a belief that God has promised to keep us FROM (not during, or in) that hour of trial (Revelation 3:10).

This isn't necessarily just to you, Chris! But I don't understand how you can say "keep us FROM (not during, or in) " when I couldn't find that in any of "keep's" definitions but I did find,

"[i]to take care of; to look after; to guard or protect. To have in one's service or for one's use (to keep servants).[/i]"

[i]I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.[/i]
John 17.15

[i]Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep >5083< thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.[/i]
Revelation 3.10

From NasGrk ~
5083. threw tereo; from a prim. word throv teros (a guard); to watch over, to guard:—

NAS-continue (1), guard (1), guards (1), heed (2), heeds (1), held in custody (1), keep (27), keep watch over (1), keeping (1), keeping guard over (1), keeps (9), kept (12), kept in custody (3), observe (3), preserve (1), preserved (1), reserved (4), watching over (1).

Chris, if you look at [b]ALL[/b] the words of KEEP in the Bible, can you find one that means "to take away from"?

I will be honest and say I don't know how much those who will be here will suffer or if they will suffer at all. I just think it's useless to argue the minute difference between the GREAT tribulation and just the tribulation.

If you were to ask those who were being eaten by lions, being burned to death or being sawn in half, 'hey, do you think you are in "great' tribulation or just normal 'tribulation?'' What do you think they would say?! >huge grin< We, who have never suffered for our faith like that, have no right to put our beliefs onto them (1800 years ago) and judge what they experienced. I've done it and now I say, how arrogant of us!

And one more thing, the Jews who studied the return of their Messiah all the time... if they studied and studied and they didn't even know Him when He showed up; will we know Him? Or will our heads be up our proverbial rear-ends still arguing about great trib from normal trib and therefore might not know Him either? LOL It's just a thought, I'm just saying...it's something to think about. Before you get a tad bit aggravated with me.... If you say, "Oh, [b]I'll[/b] know Him." Remember what Paul said, "let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall."

God bless you Chris, it's not my intention to be rude or obstinate, I just have more questions than I truly do answers though I do tend to lean heavily toward we will be here; I am trying to be open in case the Lord wants to show me something different.

S
sermonindex

Day before yesterday I did a Search for "Zac Poonen Rev 12" for his commentary, which I posted on the Amillenial thread and this thread came up on the [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=22099&forum=34&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=0]Search.[/url] I felt the pain of redundancy on this present thread that we're on now after reading through that thread. I don't know how many threads there are on this topic, but I've been praying that we'll come to some way to see that it's getting 'quite late' and we should be encouraging one another to make it through ANY possible scenario instead of running from anything and most especially, after reading that thread, that we not spend whatever time we have left arguing.


Here's another and the best message I've ever heard from [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=4145]Corrie Ten Boom.[/url]
I believe she's earned the respect to be listened to.


S
sermonindex


[b]Saints---Our belief in the Rapture is just as certain, just as sure, as our belief in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ![/b]

In 1 Thess 4:14 Paul equates belief in the Rapture as just as certain as belief in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

[b]Christ is the firstfruits of the Resurrection.[/b]
1 Cor 15:20-23
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the [b]firstfruits[/b] of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 [b]But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.[/b]

We (believers) are the [b]firstfruits of the Spirit, that are part of the Firstfruits of the Resurrection[/b] that will receive our new resurrected bodies when he comes to get us at the Rapture, as described above, and we will be like Him! The Rapture takes place before the Tribulation and the “Day of the Lord”.

Romans 8:23-25
23 And not only they,[b] but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit,[/b] even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

[b]When we receive our new resurrected bodies, we will be like Him![/b]

James 1:18
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of[b] firstfruits of his creatures[/b]


This is another description of the Rapture and the receipt of our new resurrected bodies:

1 Cor 15:52-57
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.


Another description of the Rapture.
1 Thes 4:13-17
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant [b](because they were ignornant about the Rapture)[/b], brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 [b]Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

And still another Description of the Rapture:
John 14:1-4

1. Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
4. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

In the events described above, we (all believers that are alive on the earth before the great tribulation, and all believers that are in heaven, waiting for their glorified bodies) will be raptured and receive our glorified bodies, and will meet Him in the air, and return with Him to heaven, till the end of the Tribulation, when we will RETURN WITH HIM TO THE EARTH, to rule and reign with Him during the 1,000 year millenium, that has been promised to the Jews.[/b]


This passage describes what will happen when Christ comes back to redeem us to Himself. We will be perfect like Him in all ways!
1 Cor. 13:9-12
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12[b] For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.[/b]

1 John 3:2-3
2. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear (at the Rapture), we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

[b]Next, we find a description of the Lord'S SECOND COMING, after the 7 year Tribulation-- When JESUS CHRIST COMES BACK TO THE EARTH WITH HIS SAINTS (that would be the resurrected Church, described above, from the RAPTURE)[/b]. . This clarifies for us that there is more than one resurrection (Firstfruits of the Resurrection). First, Christ was resurrected from the dead--Christ is the Firstfruits of the Resurrection (1 Cor 15:23)
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

[b][color=660000]At the end of the Tribulation, Christ comes back to the earth WITH HIS SAINTS (that is us, Believers in Glorified, Resurrected Bodies)[/color][/b]
Zechariah 14
1. Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3. Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4.[b] And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.[/b] 5. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah:[b][color=660000] and the Lord my God shall come, and ALL THE SAINTS WITH THEE.[/color][/b]
6.And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7.But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. 8. And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. 9. And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

[b]What about the people that went into the great Tribulation, that were unsaved, but came to belief during the Tribulation and were beheaded? [/b]

This describes the rapture of the people that were not saved before the Tribulation (Jews and Gentiles), that went through the Great Tribulation and became believers in Christ (saved) and were beheaded during the tribulation.[b] At the end of the Tribulation Christ throws Satan into the bottomless pit for 1,000 years and judges the beheaded believers (described above). This is a judgment of rewards, not punishment. The judgment of punishment is the Great White Throne Judgment mentioned in Rev. 20:11 and is for all non-believers.[/b]

Rev 20:1-6
1. And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3. And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4.[b] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.[/b]
5. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.[b] This is the first resurrection.
6. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. [/b]

All believers take part in the "Firstfruits of the Resurrection" (ie--the "First Resurrection"). Christ is the "Firstfruits of the Resurrection", and we will particpate in resurrection also, and THEN we will be like Him. All believers will particiapte in the "Firstfruits of the Resurrection". We are all part of the "First Resurrection", eventhough we will be resurrected many years after Jesus Christ was resurrected from the dead, and eventhough we are resurrected at different times from each other--some of us before the Tribulation, some of us after the Tribulation, and others after the Millenium (those believers of [b]flesh and blood,[/b] that lived through the Great Tribulation, and entered the 1,000 millenium with their bodies of flesh and blood, as well as their children that came to belief in the Messiah, in Jesus Christ, during the Millenium!

Sincerely,

Walter

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Lisa...


Lysa wrote:
ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
I also lean toward a belief that God has promised to keep us FROM (not during, or in) that hour of trial (Revelation 3:10).

This isn't necessarily just to you, Chris! But I don't understand how you can say "keep us FROM (not during, or in) " when I couldn't find that in any of "keep's" definitions...

I wasn't emphasizing the word "keep." I was emphasizing the specific preposition "[u]from[/u]." The Lord did not say that he was going to keep us DURING or IN or even THROUGHOUT the hour of trial. He said that He would keep us [u]FROM[/u] that hour. The Greek word is "ek" (Strong's G1537) -- which means "[i]out of, from, by, away from[/i]" (according to the BLB Lexicon). In fact, this word is even translated as "OUT OF" in at least 162 places in Scripture.

The greater point, however, that I am trying to make is that we really need to be clear that our opinions are just that -- opinions. We base our assumptions upon what we understand through Scripture; however, this understanding is limited by our perspective in eternity.

I will be honest and say I don't know how much those who will be here will suffer or if they will suffer at all. I just think it's useless to argue the minute difference between the GREAT tribulation and just the tribulation.

If you were to ask those who were being eaten by lions, being burned to death or being sawn in half, 'hey, do you think you are in "great' tribulation or just normal 'tribulation?'' What do you think they would say?! >huge grin< We, who have never suffered for our faith like that, have no right to put our beliefs onto them (1800 years ago) and judge what they experienced. I've done it and now I say, how arrogant of us!

I think that you misunderstood what I was trying to say. The difference between "tribulation" and the "Great Tribulation" (as it is known) during the end of days is regarding WHERE this tribulation is coming from. It will be an "hour of temptation" or "hour of trial" because of the wrath of God. The wrath of mankind...and even Satan...pales in comparison with the wrath that God has been storing up. The Church has historically suffered persecution and tribulation that has come from the wrath of Satan-inspired men. However, the Bible says that God will return this wrath (II Thessalonians 1:5-8). The period known as the Great Tribulation will be great only because of the judgment that will be poured from God upon the entire earth.

As for the word "taken:" Matthew chapter 24 likens the return of the Lord with the flood of Noah. Jesus said that the coming of the Son of Man would be like the days of Noah...in which the people didn't know what was about to happen until the flood came (Matthew 24:38-39). Yet the period of tribulation is described as a time worse than any other in history (Matthew 24:21).

Yet things during Noah's time were going on like they always had....until SUDDENLY...the wrath of God came. God provided a "way of escape" for Noah and His family in the form of an Ark. While the world drowned, God preserved Noah and his family. They feasted while the world under them perished. This is symbolic in the sense that this is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man (Matthew 24:39). Two men will be in the field; One will be TAKEN and another left. Two women will be grinding; One will be TAKEN and another left (Matthew 24:40-41).

The teaching of a "rapture" (I personally don't like that word) hypothesizes that the Lord will first gather His Bride during this "taking" after which the wrath of God will be poured out upon the Earth. This will happen at a timing which is known only by the Father (and is unknown to the Son) at a time that we don't expect him. During this time, the Bride of Christ will be in Heaven at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. Seven years later (or something like that), the Lord will return and set up His kingdom upon the Earth for 1000 years. In other words, they believe in a two-fold return of our Lord. Currently, I lean toward this idea -- but only after much prayerful study. This, of course, is just an opinion. I will always do my best to signify it as such.

And one more thing, the Jews who studied the return of their Messiah all the time... if they studied and studied and they didn't even know Him when He showed up; will we know Him? Or will our heads be up our proverbial rear-ends still arguing about great trib from normal trib and therefore might not know Him either? LOL It's just a thought, I'm just saying...it's something to think about. Before you get a tad bit aggravated with me.... If you say, "Oh, I'll know Him." Remember what Paul said, "let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall."
Again, this is not an argument about "normal tribulation" and the "Great Tribulation" (the difference is not in debate, I think). However, I think that you are mistaken if you think that I have my head "stuck up by proverbial rear-end." lol I am quick to admit that I do NOT know the certainty about the exact timing and manner of the Lord's return. However, we do not have to see that day come upon us like a thief. We can approach the last days as a Bride...diligently looking for the return of her Groom. Regardless of how that happens, we can look for His return. If we continually speak with Him, long for Him and love Him -- how can we go wrong? It isn't that "we'll know Him," but that we already know and fellowship with Him everyday.
God bless you Chris, it's not my intention to be rude or obstinate, I just have more questions than I truly do answers though I do tend to lean heavily toward we will be here; I am trying to be open in case the Lord wants to show me something different.
Nor am I trying to be rude or obstinate and I hope that you can tell. I currently lean toward an "gathering of the Bride" by a Groom who does not know the day or hour and that it will occur before the wrath of God is poured out upon the Earth. However, this is just an opinion...a leaning. It isn't even an assumption. I just wish that all people who teach such things would be very careful to not speak of our opinions as if they are indisputable fact.

For this, I thank you for the clarity, gentleness and careful manner by which you have approached this!

:-)

C
Christinyou

Quote:

"""Philip, how is it that you feel that we will not see persecution when a great number in this world have suffered under it from the beginning?"""

Is there a difference in dying in Grace, in Christ and those dying in the tribulation for the witness of Christ?

Those that are dying now by Grace, in Christ are like Paul, "to die is gain".

Those that will die in the tribulation for the witness of Christ and don't take the mark of the beast, will will be resurrected to live in the millennium, under the rule of Christ and His Body the Church, His Bride and will have to live under the Law, ruled with a rod of Iron. Their works will be shown in the Great White Throne Judgement. Those that have already taken part in the first resurrection are already protected and judged in The Judgement Seat of Christ, These are those that are blessed in the first resurrection.

There is a difference in dying in Christ, Grace and not taking the mark of the beast and dying for Christ and His witness, Works.

In Christ: Phillip

S
sermonindex

Chris, do you have a loaded e-sword or other Bible program? If so, look up Rev 3:10 and check out the Greek Scholars commentaries on that one verse.

Like A.T. Robertson that I posted above - this phrase is the same that John used in John 17:15 [i]I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest [u]keep them from[/u] the evil.[/i]

You could look at Barnes Notes, Adam Clarke, Wesley's Notes, Jamieson, Fausset & Brown, etc to get an understanding of that phrase - [i]"keep thee/them from"[/i] where they haven't seperated the words and isolated εκ away from the verb τηρέω.

S
sermonindex


Christinyou wrote:
Quote:

Those that will die in the tribulation for the witness of Christ and don't take the mark of the beast, will will be resurrected to live in the millennium, under the rule of Christ and His Body the Church, His Bride and will have to live under the Law, ruled with a rod of Iron. Their works will be shown in the Great White Throne Judgement. Those that have already taken part in the first resurrection are already protected and judged in The Judgement Seat of Christ, These are those that are blessed in the first resurrection.

There is a difference in dying in Christ, Grace and not taking the mark of the beast and dying for Christ and His witness, Works.

In Christ: Phillip

Revelation 20 does not say what you've said here Philip.

I don't know what else to say as a reply. I'm sorry.

S
sermonindex

Quote Ccchhhrrriiisss:

[i]"As for the word "taken:" Matthew chapter 24 likens the return of the Lord with the flood of Noah. Jesus said that the coming of the Son of Man would be like the days of Noah...in which the people didn't know what was about to happen until the flood came (Matthew 24:38-39)."[/i]

Good verses to bring up for the question - Who was taken from the earth and who was left or preserved alive on earth with the flood?

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Jesus_is_God,

Yes, I have eSword. However, I don't necessarily need to read commentaries on what it plainly says. Any "scholar" can try and interpret it one way or another. The bottom line? This is merely an interpretation. Your opinion of this might mirror some of those scholars while my opinion might mirror others.

The verse in John 17, however, seems to be pertaining to the world in general...and not that specific time in which God will pour out His wrath upon the world. Of course, this is an interpretation too.

"As for the word "taken:" Matthew chapter 24 likens the return of the Lord with the flood of Noah. Jesus said that the coming of the Son of Man would be like the days of Noah...in which the people didn't know what was about to happen until the flood came (Matthew 24:38-39)."

Good verses to bring up for the question - Who was taken from the earth and who was left or preserved alive on earth with the flood?

Actually, Noah and his family escaped this wrath because God provided a way of escape. They didn't participate in the judgment of this world because God lifted them above it. They escaped while the world drowned. This is similar to how Lott and his family escaped [u]from[/u] Sodom.

The point that needs to be made, brother, is that each of these scholars...and you...me...etc... -- these are our opinions of what might or might not take place. We should not speak with certainty that which is, at best, conjecture based upon what we [i]think[/i] the Scriptures are saying. I don't agree with someone presenting their view (even if they are a supposed "scholar") as if it were a "fact" when it is still speculation.

:-)

C
Christinyou

The Great Lesson
Of the many things God has showed man through the dispensations, the lesson that should stand out above the others is that man is a hopeless rebel, utter failure, and without hope without God. He is simply not capable of living up to God's righteous standard no matter how "enlightened" and able he may think he is.

Place him in a beautiful garden with everything he needs, including fellowship with God, a beautiful and compatible wife, the earth under his dominion, access to the Tree of Life, etc., and man will forsake it all and choose death. Leave him alone with his conscience to guide him and man will become so exceedingly wicked that he must be removed from the earth with a flood. Give him great and sure promises and man will flee them and speak lies in unbelieving fear. Make of him a chosen nation for God to speak through and dwell among, with His holy Law and priesthood, and man will abandon his God and worship dumb idols. Give him an eternal redemption from sin and hell, everlasting life, an indwelling Holy Spirit, New life by the Spirit of Christ in you, the promise of a new body, a home in New Jerusalem, and birth him into God's own family making him His son, and man will repay his Savior with rebellion, worldliness, and indifference. Unless by the Grace of God through Faith we believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, without this Grace man is still lost and not able to attain sonship at all. Give him a perfect, uncursed earth, a cooperative environment, no Satan to tempt him, extended lifespan, and Jesus Christ himself to reign over him, and man will revolt and try to force Christ from His throne. All is clear. Man is a wicked, vile, evil, selfish, and vain creature, and apart from God he is utterly hopeless and bound for hell. The surest proof of this is God is near the last millennium of his dealings with man (now 6000 years along), and man collectively has not learned this ONE lesson yet!


In Christ: Phillip

C
Christinyou

Quote:

"""Revelation 20 does not say what you've said here Philip.

I don't know what else to say as a reply. I'm sorry."""

Oh, but it does;


The Difference Is In The Dispensations

How to make sense of the differences in the Bible

Chapter Ib


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Covenants And The Dispensations cont.


The Abrahamic Covenant and The Dispensation of Promise
Nine generations after Shem, Abraham was born. Abraham was about 75 years old and living in Ur of the Chaldees when God one day spoke to him. God, through His amazing grace, wanted to make another covenant with man and chose Abraham as His partner. The covenant He made with him was again unconditional and contained many promises (Gen 12:1-3). The only hint of a condition appears to be that Abraham had to forsake his home and family and go to a land God would show him. When Abraham obeyed and entered the land the promises became fixed. God promised to:
1. Make Abraham a great nation (vs. 2). This promise has been fulfilled both physically and spiritually. Physically through Isaac and Ishmael, spiritually through all those who have Abraham's faith (Gal. 3:7).
2. To bless him (vs. 2), and He did this also both physically (13:14-18) and spiritually (15:6).
3. To make his name great (vs. 2). Still today the name of Abraham is known and respected by millions.
4. Make him a blessing to others (vs. 2). Abraham blessed people in his own time and blessed humanity by his seed Jesus Christ.
5. To bless those who bless him (vs. 3).
6. And curse those who curse him (vs. 3). God has not only blessed those who blessed Abraham, but He also blessed those who blessed the nation that sprang from his loins, Israel. On the other hand, those who cursed Israel (Babylon, Assyria, Rome, Germany, etc.) must suffer. Some have suffered already, but these promises will not be completely fulfilled until the future.
7. Bless all the families of the earth in him (vs. 3). The fulfillment of this is Christ himself, who blesses all those who believe on Him with salvation and who will also physically bless all who are in the millennium.

Though this covenant is unconditional it does not apply universally to everyone. Doctrinally, it only applies to the Hebrew race through Isaac and Jacob (Israel). Gentiles can only get in on it by receiving Abraham's promised Seed—Jesus Christ. Those who refuse to receive Him, Jew or Gentile, will be judged by Him.

Like the Noahic Covenant this covenant also has a sign, and it is circumcision (Gen. 17:9-14). Circumcision is a token of the promises God has made to Abraham and his seed, and anyone who refused or neglected to accept it was cut off from his people and the promises (excommunication). Circumcision was the only obligation Abraham and his people had under this covenant. If they performed it by faith, they had full access to all the promises. God again reconfirmed this covenant in Genenis chapter 15 after Abraham "believed in the Lord..." and asked for more details. After Abraham offered five offerings as God commanded, the Lord again affirmed the covenant and revealed how Abraham's seed would be a stranger in a land (Egypt) and afflicted for 400 years. God also revealed the boundaries of the land given to Abraham. Moreover, God promised all of this to Abraham while Abraham was asleep! This proves the covenant is unconditional. God reconfirmed the covenant again after Abraham passed his severe but revealing test of offering Isaac (Gen. 22:15-18).

Another significant thing about this covenant is it apparently has no ending. It goes beyond the Millennium and renovation of the earth and even past the New Heaven and New Earth. Therefore, the nation of Israel, governed by its Messiah and King, will still be in existence at the gate of eternity.

The dispensation that began with this covenant is called the Dispensation of Promise for obvious reasons. For the first time God has made promises to one group of people at the exclusion of all others. From the time of Abraham on in the Old Testament, the only way someone other than an Israelite could partake of the promises was to become an Israelite himself (Ruth, for example [Ruth 1:16]). Again, the only way now is to receive Jesus Christ. By some this dispensation is called the Dispensation of the Family because everything God had to say to man He said to this one family. The promises He made to Abraham He reconfirmed to his son Isaac, his grand-son Jacob, and then to Jacob's sons, the heads of the twelve tribes of Israel. The manner of behavior God expected in this dispensation is much like the previous except that He told Abraham to go to a certain land and stay there (Canaan).

Abraham obeyed in going to the land, but when a famine came and times got hard he fled into Egypt for food. He could not yet trust God enough to stay. This again shows the weakness and failure of man to live up to God's requirements. In every dispensation man in some way fails to keep God's word and consequently brings judgment upon himself.

Moreover, the character of the descendants of Abraham degenerated from that of Abraham. Even though Abraham was afraid and lied in Egypt about Sarah, Isaac seemed to lie more easily (Gen. 26:7). Jacob (meaning Deceiver or Supplanter) was even more blatant in sin. He lied, deceived, tricked, and schemed it appears without a second thought (Gen. 27:6-29). Likewise, his sons (with the exception of Joseph) were even more mixed up in vice and evil. From adultery with handmaids and harlots to murder and kidnapping (Gen. 34:25, 37:23-36, 38:12-18), they all seemed to think lightly of sin. The actions of everyone concerned, from Abraham on down, and the degeneration of the character of the family in each succeeding generation caused God to send Abraham's seed into Egypt and later into bondage. It was 430 years from the call of Abraham to the exodus from Egypt, the length of this dispensation.

The Mosaic Covenant and The Dispensation of the Law
By the time Moses was born, the 75 people that went with Jacob into Egypt had grown into millions. The new king that "knew not Joseph" put them into heavy bondage and eventually the Israelites began to cry upon the Lord for deliverance. God heard their cry and sent them a deliverer from among their own—Moses. Since the self-governing of man in the dispensations of Conscience and Promise failed, God established a highly comprehensive and detailed dispensation where He could rule man Himself from a central place of worship.
After revealing Himself to Moses in the wilderness, God sent Moses back into Egypt to free his brethren from their slavery. With great signs and wonders He performed through Moses, God forced Israel's release and brought the people across the Red Sea to make a nation out of them as He promised to Abraham. On their way to the promised land (Canaan), God established His covenant with them at Mt. Sinai, and this time the covenant is completely conditional. That is, for God to continue to do His part, the Israelites had to continue to do theirs. The bulk of this covenant is called "the law," a detailed list of rules and regulations concerning nearly every aspect of life. No longer were they to be guided only by their conscience or the opinions of other men, God had given them very specific WRITTEN commands which were easily understood and could be consulted at any time.

In Exodus 19:5-6 God, through Moses, lays the covenant before the people and tells them what He will do for them "if" they obey His voice. The people of one accord reply "All that the Lord has spoken we will do" (Ex. 19:8) and the covenant is sealed. In the next chapter God gives them the "Ten Commandments," and in much of the rest of Exodus, nearly all of Leviticus, and a good portion of Numbers and Deuteronomy, He reveals more requirements. This covenant can be broken into three parts:

1. The Moral Law (Ex. 20: 1-26, the Ten Commandments, etc.).

2. The Civil (or Judicial) Law (Ex. 21:1-24:18). This was the precepts of the judicial system for the punishment of crimes and settlement of disputes.

3. The Ceremonial Law (Ex. 25:1-40:38, etc.). This was in essence their religious system and included all the details of sacrifice and worship (the tabernacle, priesthood, offerings, etc.).

This covenant also has a sign: the sabbath day—the seventh day of the week (Saturday [Ex. 31:13-17]).

Here, we must remind the reader that this covenant was only between God and the Israelites. No part of it applied to any Gentile then and neither does it now. The moral law of God found in the Ten Commandments is a reflection of God's nature and is profitable for anyone in any dispensation, but doctrinally as given in Exodus and Deuteronomy they are binding only on the Jews. All of the commandments, excluding the fifth (the sabbath), can be found in some form in the New Testament, thus making their message apply also to born again Christians, but as they are found in the Mosaic Covenant, they apply ONLY to Israel.

As we have said much of the Scripture wresting that goes on today is a result of people not properly dividing the Scriptures and forcing doctrines from one dispensational arrangement into another. The Sabbath, for instance, is one that is today heavily abused. God clearly states in Ex. 31:13-17 that the Sabbath is to and for the children of Israel alone and binding on no one else. Some think since it is found in the Ten Commandments it is an "eternal" law to everyone, but as mentioned above, no one else was ever commanded to keep it. In fact a born again Christian is not commanded to set apart any particular day for worship, not even the Lord's day (Sunday). He is free to meet on any day he esteems best (Rom. 14:5). Most believers usually meet on the Lord's day, however, by following the examples found in the New Testament (Acts 20:7, etc.). Again, when one tries to place a doctrine peculiar to one dispensation into another he will always end up with heresy.

The Dispensation of the Law lasted from the exodus out of Egypt until the cross (around 1500 years), and God kept his part of the covenant despite many failures of the Israelites to keep theirs. Just a short period of time after they promised to obey it, the Jews rebelled against the Lord, but God graciously gave them many more chances to obey. When they rebelled against Moses over the bitter water, God made the water sweet (Ex. 15:25). When they murmured about the lack of food, God gave them manna for 40 years (Ex. 16). When they became idolaters and worshipped the golden calf, clearly breaking the covenant, God again had grace and mercy on them though He had a mind to do otherwise (Ex. 32).

Over the years God was very long-suffering with Israel and overlooked many of their transgressions. When Moses died God was gracious and gave them another leader, Joshua. When he died God gave them judges to lead them. When they sought to be like the heathen and wanted a king, God warned them against it but nevertheless gave them Saul. After Saul came a man after His own heart, David. After David, God gave them His wisdom through Solomon, and on and on. God gave His people every advantage and opportunity to love obey and serve Him as He desired, but the Jews were a stiff-necked and rebellious people. With a pitiful few short periods of semi-obedience and loyalty to their credit, the Jews were usually characterized by rebellion, immorality, and idolatry.

Though God was long-suffering with Israel, He would not put up with their rebellion forever, and after almost 1000 years His patience ran out. In the meantime He sent numerous prophets (Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, etc.) to warn them of what He was about to do if they didn't repent, but for the most part they either ignored them or persecuted them. God faithfully protected Israel from her enemies for centuries, but around 606 BC, because of their failure to return to Him, He let their enemies have them. The Babylonians destroyed Jerusalem and carried the people into Babylon to again be slaves. Only after 70 years, after a new generation came along, did God allow them to return to Jerusalem and rebuild it under Ezra and Nehemiah. Though they rebuilt it with the purest of intentions, they again, over the next four centuries, degenerated and became so filled with unbelief, self-righteousness, and hatred that they did not even recognize their own promised Messiah when He walked among them (Jn. 1:10-11)! More than that they mercilessly persecuted and then crucified Him! So much for the humanistic notions there is "a spark of divinity in every man" or "man is basically good."

God has up to this point set up five different doctrinal arrangements with man, five different methods of testing and dealing with him, and man has miserably failed in every one!

The Davidic Covenant and The Dispensation of Grace
This covenant and dispensational arrangement is different from the others because the covenant is given nearly 1000 years before it and its accompanying dispensation go into effect. Instead of starting when it was first mentioned, this covenant is not fully in effect until David's seed comes along (Jesus Christ).
Once when Israel was at peace and David was at rest from his enemies, David wanted to do something for God and proposed building Him a permanent house (temple) to dwell in. Through Nathan the prophet God told David He did not yet want a house, but appreciated the thought (1 Ki. 8:18), and He then told David He was going to make a house out of HIM.

God made three promises to David in this unconditional covenant found in 2 Sam. 7:4-17:

1. That his house (posterity) would never cease (vs. 12-13).
2. That his throne will never be completely destroyed and continue forever (vs. 13, 16).
3. That his earthly kingdom will also continue forever through his promised seed (vs. 13, 16).

In some respects this covenant could be speaking of Solomon as the seed, but Solomon's reign ended in apostasy (1 Kings 11), thus another seed of David must be the ultimate fulfillment—the Lord Jesus Christ. Christ is the only person who can possibly fulfill it. He is the seed of Adam, Shem, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judah, and David, and he is the only person in history who fulfills the more than sixty other prophesies God had given concerning the "seed." Before Christ was born the angel Gabriel told Mary the son to be born of her was to be the "son of the highest" (God), the "son of David" (man), and He would reign on David's throne forever (Luke 1:30-33). This covenant, like the Abrahamic Covenant continues to the gate of eternity.

Since the fulfillment of this covenant is Jesus Christ, and God is going to keep all of His promises to David in Christ, the covenant did not come into effect until Christ was born. That no seed of David has reigned in Jerusalem since the Babylonian captivity has nothing to do with the fulfillment of this covenant. It is not until after Israel's full chastisement for rejecting Christ is completed (Tribulation) that Christ comes as a King to reign on David's throne (Millennium). Christ came the first time as a Servant and sacrificial Lamb; the second time He will come as a Warrior and King.

The dispensation ushered in by the Davidic Covenant is our present Dispensation of Grace. Again, that this dispensation is named grace does not mean that God's grace cannot be found in the other dispensations, only that it is more prevalent and visible in this one. God often had mercy and grace on many in the past (Adam, Noah, Abraham, David, etc.), but now He freely offers His saving grace to everyone through the shed blood of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Technically, this dispensation does not begin with Christ's birth but with his death and resurrection. It extends from the cross to the calling up of all believers, dead or alive, at the rapture. (1 Thes. 4:13-18). In some ways this is a parenthetical dispensation because it is in the form of a mystery and sandwiched between the two Jewish dispensations of Law and the Millennium.

The subject of this dispensation is a group called "the church" or "the body of Christ." The Church is the mystery referred to in Eph. 3:3-9 and is so named because God had not revealed in the Old Testament that He was going to form such an organism, especially from both Jews and Gentiles. The New Testament tells us God's purpose in the Church is to gather a "people for His name" from all humanity, Jew and Gentile, in Jesus Christ to (among other things) become Christ's bride. "Whosoever will" can become a member of this living organism by simply repenting and by faith receiving the risen Jesus Christ into his heart. No works are required to obtain or keep this eternal salvation; all one must have is Jesus Christ in him. Christ has promised to freely come into and save all who will admit they are sinners, abandon all other means of salvation, and trust Him alone as Savior.

In this dispensation God is no longer dealing with man primarily as nations but as individuals. Every individual can have a personal relationship with God through the Lord Jesus Christ and he does not have to go through any priest or religious system to receive atonement for his sins. Israel, as a nation, has been placed on a "back burner" because of their blindness, but individual Jews can be saved just the same as Gentiles until this dispensation ends. The "Church of God" is a distinct body from both Jews and Gentiles and has many blessings these two groups don't enjoy. God has poured many extremely rich blessings upon the saved of this dispensation that He has not given to those of any other. Even those saved in future dispensations do not have many of the precious treasures the Body of Christ has now. For example:

1. The new birth (regeneration [Tit. 3:5, etc.]). There is no clear, biblical proof that the new birth is valid in any other dispensation (More on this later).
2. A completed atonement (described under the salvation doctrines propitiation and redemption [Heb. 9:12; 1 Jn. 2:2]). Until Christ's death salvation was "on credit."
3. Eternal and everlasting life that the believer cannot loose (described under the salvation doctrines justification, adoption, reconciliation, imputation, etc. [John 3:16, 5:24; etc.])
4. Salvation by faith alone, no works at all required to obtain or keep it (Eph 2:8-9; etc.).
5. The indwelling Holy Spirit who comforts, empowers, and seals believers (Eph. 4:30).
6. A position in Christ's Body and Bride (Eph. 5:30-32).
7. The promise of a supernatural body like Christ's resurrection body (Phil. 3:21).
8. A future mansion in the New Jerusalem (John 14:1-3).

Clearly, born again Christians, by no value of their own, have been given more blessings and promises than any other group of saved people, all by the good pleasure and pure grace of God. Why God selected this group to shower these amazing privileges on is fully known only by Him, but how much more should we who are saved and partake of them obey God's wishes with love and thanksgiving?

The obligation of believers during this dispensation is simple and direct. Each believer is to:

1. Evangelize by preaching the gospel of the grace of God to every creature (Matt. 28:19-20; Mark 16:15).
2. Be filled with the Holy Spirit and let Him direct his every thought and action (Gal. 5:16; Eph.5:18).
3. Present himself as a living sacrifice for God's service and separate himself from the world (Rom. 12:1-2).

Whether the believer obeys or disobeys these duties has nothing to do with his salvation, but disobedience will cost him rewards and crowns at the Judgment Seat of Christ where every believer will give account of himself to God (Rom. 14:10).

Even with the multitude of great blessings and privileges God has showered upon believers in Christ, this dispensation still ends in failure. Their failure was hinted at by Christ before the cross. He said when He returned the times would then be like the days of Noah thousands of years earlier (Matt. 24:37-39), characterized by unrestrained rebellion, wickedness, and apostasy. With all God has given believers in this present dispensation, they have again willingly refused to consistently do as He commanded.

Soon Christ will return and secretly take away all the Christians to Heaven and judgment and let the world continue, then even faster, toward its destiny of destruction.

The Tribulation Period
Sometime after the rapture, possibly immediately or maybe years later, the Tribulation Period will began. In Jer. 30:6 this period is called "the time of Jacob's trouble" because God is going to judge Israel as a nation by allowing Satan to "trouble" them (through the Antichrist) for rejecting Jesus Christ as their Messiah. Though Satan will have his own reasons for punishing the Jews, God will allow him to do it because they said concerning Christ "crucify him, crucify him" (John 19:6) and "his blood be on us and on our CHILDREN" (Matt. 27:25). God simply gives them their request. This is the time period Christ was referring to when He said, "...for then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be" (Matt. 24:21). It will be disaster and sorrow on such a scale that the strongest men will hide in caves and beg for death (Rev. 6:15-16).
When Christ said, "I am come in my father's name, and ye receive me not, if another will come in his own name him ye will receive" (John 5:44), He was speaking of the coming Antichrist (also called "the Beast," "the man of sin," the "abomination of desolation," etc.). This evil character is second only to Christ as to the amount of information the Bible gives him. Daniel tells us he will make a covenant with Israel (Dan. 9:27) for "seven weeks" (years) and then break it in the middle (at 42 months). Many Jews will think him to be their Messiah until he breaks the covenant and demands to be worshipped as the God of Heaven (2 Thes. 2:4). When the Jews refuse, the Beast (now Satan incarnate) will persecute them with a fierce vengeance. He will slaughter millions of them (and also Gentiles who refuse to worship his image or take his mark—666, Rev. 13), but 144,000 will be sealed by God and protected from harm.

Finally, after no more than seven years from the signing of the covenant, Jesus Christ will return and destroy the Beast and his armies at Armageddon. The few Jews that are left will then "look upon him whom they pierced" and receive Christ as their true Messiah and King. At that moment God will save them as a nation (Rom. 11:26). They will, after 20 centuries, have finally accepted Christ for WHO He really is—"God manifest in the flesh." Though the Tribulation will severely punish them, almost to extinction, God was forced to allow it to get them to receive the truth. Being "stiff-necked" (Acts 7:51) they would not accept it under any other means. Once they repent and receive Jesus Christ, they are then ready to receive the kingdom promised to their fathers Abraham and David.

Dispensationally, the Tribulation period is basically the Dispensation of the Law with a few added features. Since the Church will have left in the rapture, the parenthetical Dispensation of Grace will be gone along with the doctrines unique to it. Thus the nation of Israel will again be the main object of God's concern. There will be a temple in the Tribulation, sacrifices will be offered, and salvation will again have a Jewish ring to it. More on this in the following chapters.

The Palestinian Covenant, The New Covenant, and The Messianic Dispensation
1400 years before Christ, at the end of their 40 years of wandering in the wilderness, God made another covenant with Israel besides the one He made at Mt. Sinai. Called the Palestinian Covenant because they were about to enter the land of Palestine, the covenant contains a promise of what God will do for them when they repent of their sins and return to Him after a period of rebellion. God promised after He dispersed them among the nations as punishment for future disobedience (ultimately the rejection of Christ), He would regather and return them to their land after they repent. This covenant is closely linked with the Mosaic Covenant, and some say the two are joined together at the beginning of the Millennium. It is found in Deut. 30:1-10 and its specific elements are:
1. Israel's dispersion for disobedience (vs. 1). Though Israel is a nation today, more Jews live in New York City than in the land of Palestine. The bulk of the Jews on earth are still scattered and those in Israel do not possess all the land promised to them.
2. Their (foreknown) repentance while dispersed (vs. 2). This is during the Tribulation.
3. The return of the Lord (vs. 3). Christ will personally regather them after the Tribulation.
4. The restoration of all their land (vs. 5). Christ will give them the entire land grant promised to Abraham.
5. Their national conversion (vs. 6). All Israel will be saved (nationally) in a day (Rom. 11:26).
6. The judgment of their enemies and oppressors (vs. 7). The judgment of the nations (Matt. 25).
7. Their national blessing and prosperity (vs. 9).

This covenant comes into effect at the end of the Tribulation period when the remaining Jews see the return of the Lord Jesus Christ and receive Him as their Messiah. They will nationally repent and mourn for their sin of rejecting Him and admit before all their acceptance of Him as King. God will then, in Christ, forgive them and bless them as He desired to bless them from their beginning. He will give them all the land promised to their fathers and reign over them Himself from Jerusalem. Christ will judge their enemies at the Judgment of Nations (Matt. 25:31-46) and place the other nations under them in privilege and importance. Israel will be the premier nation on earth, and that purely by the promise and good pleasure of God. This covenant lasts, at least, until the end of the Millennium.

The New Covenant is called "new" because unlike the previous covenants it has not yet been made. It was promised in Jer. 31:31-37 and confirmed again in Heb. 8:7-13, but it has not yet been officially given to the nation of Israel. Again, after the Jews repent and receive Christ as their Messiah, God will formally establish this unconditional covenant with them. This is the "new testament" Jesus was referring to in Matt. 26:28 when He said, "for this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." Thus this covenant is based on the shed blood and atoning death of Jesus Christ.

Many today insist this New Covenant doctrinally applies to the present "church age," but this is another wresting of Scripture. By letting the Scriptures speak for themselves one can easily see that the New Covenant only applies doctrinally to "the house of Israel" and "the house of Judah" (Jer. 31:31, Heb. 8:8). It has nothing to do with the born again believer or the present Dispensation of Grace. The main thrust of this "new testament" is not the Church Age, but a future covenant with Israel based on the atoning death of the Jewish "testator," Jesus Christ. Of course, the salvation Christ bought with His blood is available to all today, Jew or Gentile, but as found in Jeremiah and Hebrews the New Covenant will apply only to Israel. The specifics of this covenant are (as found in Jeremiah 31):

1. God will put His laws in each individual's heart (vs. 33).
2. God will again be their God and Israel His people (vs. 33).
3. There will no longer be any preaching or witnessing because all Jews will know the Lord (vs. 34).
4. God will completely forgive them and remember their sin no more (vs. 34).
5. It is as permanent as day and night, the moon and stars, the waves of the sea, and the unmeasurable vastness of the earth and heavens (vs. 35-37).

This covenant is in effect from the beginning of the Millennium through to the gate of eternity.

The Messianic Dispensation (the Millennium), along with the New Covenant, will begin when the Palestinian Covenant is fulfilled at the end of the Tribulation. This dispensation is the "golden age" and "utopia" man today dreams about. It will be characterized by a perfect, righteous, and holy Ruler, universal righteousness, world peace, greatly reduced sickness and death, extended life span, gentleness and compatibility of wildlife, more cooperative earth for crops, perfect climate and environment, no random natural disasters, most of the curses lifted, little or no crime, and the binding of man's constant enemy, Satan. In the Millennium man will have everything he says today he wants, but will he fare any better in this dispensation than in the others? Hardly.

There are scores of passages in the Old Testament concerning this blessed period, and in the New Testament it is called the "kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 3:2, 5:3). The kingdom of heaven truly was "at hand" when Christ began His earthly ministry, but when the Jews rejected the King it was postponed until they were willing to receive Him. The "sermon on the mount" (Matt. ch. 5-7) will essentially be the Constitution of this kingdom and lay down the rules and principles of behavior required in it. During this 1000 year period, Christ will rule with a "rod of iron" and compel everyone to obey these principles and His will. Those who don't will be punished (Zech. 14:16-19).

With Satan bound in the bottomless pit and no longer able to influence nations or individuals for evil (Rev. 20:2), man will not be able to blame him for their sins. God will remove every form of outside negative influence during the Millennium, thus giving man every opportunity to do right. But even in this much sought after environment man will ultimately fail. It appears that during this period the people will begin to get tired of compelled obedience and of the righteous King in Jerusalem and rebel against Christ in their heart (Jer. 17:9). At the end of the 1000 years, God will release Satan from prison and give him access to the nations one last time. Very quickly Satan will organize a revolt against Christ and form a huge army to oust Him from Jerusalem. He will likely use pride to convince man he can do a better job "governing himself" (remember the Dispensation of Human Government?). The entire revolt is devoured by fire from Heaven and Satan's usefulness to God is over (Rev. 20:9).

It has taken God seven dispensations to do it, but He has proved his point. The problem with man is not his circumstances or misfortune, neither is it his environment or upbringing, man's number one problem is HIMSELF. Man by nature is evil, and no matter what kind of world or environment he is placed in he will remain evil. The only remedy is God must give him a new heart (2 Cor. 5:17).

During this time those who make up the body of Christ and have gone up in the rapture will reign with Christ from Jerusalem. They may act as His ambassadors to the nations enforcing His righteousness all over the earth. Nevertheless, each born again believer's old sinful nature will be literally and forever dead, leaving him with no capacity for sin. He will also have a supernatural, glorified body like Christ's (Phil. 3:21). Therefore, he cannot rebel with the world against Christ, he has already went through his testing period. The Jews and Gentiles that enter into the Millennium from the Tribulation, however, will still have only their natural bodies and the same old sinful Adamic nature all sinners are born with.

The New Heavens, The New Earth, and The New Jerusalem
After the rebellion at the end of the Millennium and the destruction of all those involved, God's series of testing periods for man will be over; the time for final judgment will have come. God will judge everyone who has not been judged before in a final, all encompassing judgment at the Great White Throne. Every saved person from Adam to the end of the Millennium who was not part of a group that was previously judged (like the Church), along with every person of every other age who died lost will be resurrected to stand before the Lord Jesus Christ and be judged according to their works. Those whose names are found in the "book of life" will be granted the privilege to enter into the New Heaven and New Earth. Those whose are not found in the book will be cast into the "lake of fire," there to spend eternity in torment (Rev. 20).
Many today claim there will be no saved people from any dispensation before the White Throne for judgment, but what about those saved in the Tribulation and Millennium? There is no other judgment to cover these people. We agree no saved person from the present Dispensation of Grace will be judged there because the "Judgment Seat of Christ" will cover them, but those saved in other dispensations must be judged at some time (Heb. 9:27), and this is the only judgment left. These people will have their names recorded in the book of life when they are saved; the Great White Throne Judgment will simply reveal their salvation, and their works, to all.

While the above judgment is in progress, God will be forming the New Heaven and the New Earth. He will do this by renovating the old heaven and earth with fire, melting the elements and purging them from the contamination of sinful man and preparing them for future habitation. The White Throne Judgment apparently occurs in the void of space.

After the judgment and renovation God will be ready to establish His final dispensational arrangement. Calling this arrangement a dispensation may not be entirely accurate because it has no clear ending. It appears to join with eternity. Furthermore, three covenants will still be in effect at this time, the Abrahamic, Davidic, and New Covenants; therefore, the nation of Israel will still be in existence (Isa. 66:22).

Including Israel there will be three distinct groups of people in this final arrangement. Israel will be made up of saved Jews from every dispensation except the Dispensation of Grace; the second group will be saved Gentiles from every dispensation except Grace; and the third group will be all those saved, Jew and Gentile, in the Dispensation of Grace—the Bride of Christ. The Bride of Christ is a fixed number that cannot increase or decrease after the rapture, but the other two groups can increase through childbirth.

Since there will be no more death (Rev. 21:4), the kingdom will increase and rapidly fill the earth and then spread throughout the heavens. Isaiah 9:7 says, "of the increase of his government there shall be no end," thus Christ's kingdom may expand from earth to the other planets, then to the stars and beyond towards infinity. After 7000 years of dealing with man, God has redeemed those who obeyed him and put them in a suitable condition to populate the universe. Out of billions and billions of people who have lived on earth, God has saved a relatively small remnant and these now love Him in return. With
them God may begin to populate the entire universe.

The Bride of Christ will dwell in New Jerusalem, a city prepared by Christ for her habitation that contains "many mansions." The city will descend from Heaven to earth and among other things contain the throne of God and the "tree of life" (Rev. 21). At this point God will have in some respects made a complete circle in His dealings with man. The Bible begins with man in a garden with the "tree of life," and after more than 7000 years of revealing many things to him, God has him again in a garden like setting with a tree that brings life.

Although there are other more minor divisions in the Bible one could mention, the eight major divisions we have outlined above are the ones most essential for understanding the Scriptures. If a believer will spend a little time in study and by noting these divisions keep the different issues separate and the alike together, he will be well on his way to understanding God's program for man and all creation as He has revealed it. Things that are different are not the same, and in the Bible the difference is often in the dispensations.

The Great Lesson
Of the many things God has showed man through the dispensations, the lesson that should stand out above the others is that man is a hopeless rebel, utter failure, and without hope without God. He is simply not capable of living up to God's righteous standard no matter how "enlightened" and able he may think he is.

Place him in a beautiful garden with everything he needs, including fellowship with God, a beautiful and compatible wife, the earth under his dominion, access to the Tree of Life, etc., and man will forsake it all and choose death. Leave him alone with his conscience to guide him and man will become so exceedingly wicked that he must be removed from the earth with a flood. Give him great and sure promises and man will flee them and speak lies in unbelieving fear. Make of him a chosen nation for God to speak through and dwell among, with His holy Law and priesthood, and man will abandon his God and worship dumb idols. Give him an eternal redemption from sin and hell, everlasting life, an indwelling Holy Spirit, New life by the Spirit of Christ in you, the promise of a new body, a home in New Jerusalem, and birth him into God's own family making him His son, and man will repay his Savior with rebellion, worldliness, and indifference. Unless by the Grace of God through Faith we believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, without this Grace man is still lost and not able to attain sonship at all. Give him a perfect, uncursed earth, a cooperative environment, no Satan to tempt him, extended lifespan, and Jesus Christ himself to reign over him, and man will revolt and try to force Christ from His throne. All is clear. Man is a wicked, vile, evil, selfish, and vain creature, and apart from God he is utterly hopeless and bound for hell. The surest proof of this is God is near the last millennium of his dealings with man (now 6000 years along), and man collectively has not learned this ONE lesson yet!

This is what Rev 20 is about.


In Christ: Phillip


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Blah, blah, blah; Yea, go on waste all your energy debating pre, mid, post. Sure about this??? thiiiinnnk!

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Philip wrote: [i]"Those that will die in the tribulation for the witness of Christ and don't take the mark of the beast, will will be resurrected to live in the millennium, [u]under the rule of Christ and His Body the Church, His Bride and will have to live under the Law, ruled with a rod of Iron.[/u] Their works will be shown in the Great White Throne Judgement. Those that have already taken part in the first resurrection are already protected and judged in The Judgement Seat of Christ, These are those that are blessed in the first resurrection."[/i]


My underlining on both.

John wrote:

Rev 20:4-6 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: [u]and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. [/u]
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


etc to the end of Chpt 20.

I personally don't hold to dispensationalism and do believe we are resurrected at the 7th or last trump, simultaneously with His Returning, pre-millenially and never thought I'd change anyone's mind on this thread nor could anyone change mine - except to still hope we'd all just be "ready for anything" as Corrie preached and continue to pray for each other.


Thanks you guys!

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Chris you keep saying opinion or interpretation. Is there no certainty to the gospel or God’s word? Will people give their lives up for mere opinion or interpretation .Is there not fact in God’s word? If Jesus words are interpretations or opinions there is no way I will lay my life down and I believe anyone who has that line of thought will have a big problem spending their life on such shaky ground.Chis there is such a thing called divine revelation that is what Daniel and John operated in .As for the people of God going threw God’s wrath the did in Egypt and the spirit of death past them over and the bible says we will over come the same way.

Revelation 12:11 (New International Version)

11They overcame him
by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony;
they did not love their lives so much
as to shrink from death.
God always tells his prophets what he is about to do and what they speak is fact and we will know if they are a prophet of God if what they say comes to past. So you see not every thing is opinion or interpretation. Some things are truth or a lie or right and wrong light and darkness good and evil. It is unwise to disregard all of the clear scriptures on this matter and then imply that we have to interpret what is going to happen .When Jesus gave us very clear instructions.

Matthew 10:21-22 (New International Version)
21"Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 22All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Matthew 10:24-26 (New International Version)
24"A student is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master. 25It is enough for the student to be like his teacher, and the servant like his master. If the head of the house has been called Beelzebub,[a] how much more the members of his household!


Matthew 10:32-39 (New International Version)
32"Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. 33But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.
34"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn
" 'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law -
36a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'[a]
37"Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

Matthew 24:9-13 (New International Version)
9"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Mark 13:9-13 (New International Version)
9"You must be on your guard. You will be handed over to the local councils and flogged in the synagogues. On account of me you will stand before governors and kings as witnesses to them. 10And the gospel must first be preached to all nations. 11Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit.
12"Brother will betray brother to death and a father his child. Children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 13All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.


Luke 21:16-19 (New International Version)
16You will be betrayed even by parents, brothers, relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death. 17All men will hate you because of me. 18But not a hair of your head will perish. 19By standing firm you will gain life.

Daniel 11:33-35 (New International Version)
33 "Those who are wise will instruct many, though for a time they will fall by the sword or be burned or captured or plundered. 34 When they fall, they will receive a little help, and many who are not sincere will join them. 35 Some of the wise will stumble, so that they may be refined, purified and made spotless until the time of the end, for it will still come at the appointed time.

Daniel 12:1-4 (New International Version)
Daniel 12
The End Times
1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise [a] will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. 4 But you, Daniel, close up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge."
This is the time God is unsealing these prophecies. We can have revelation verses interpretation. There are many absolutes in his word. God’s watchman sound the alarm from across the globe. God has had his faithful followers go threw his judgment many times before but he did exalt them or protect them during that time. David Wilkerson just prophesied we were going to go threw the Ezekiel 14 judgment because our nation has turned away from God. By the way there are three great men of God listed in the judgment. Just food for thought?


Ezekiel 14
Idolaters Condemned
1 Some of the elders of Israel came to me and sat down in front of me. 2 Then the word of the LORD came to me: 3 "Son of man, these men have set up idols in their hearts and put wicked stumbling blocks before their faces. Should I let them inquire of me at all? 4 Therefore speak to them and tell them, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: When any Israelite sets up idols in his heart and puts a wicked stumbling block before his face and then goes to a prophet, I the LORD will answer him myself in keeping with his great idolatry. 5 I will do this to recapture the hearts of the people of Israel, who have all deserted me for their idols.'
6 "Therefore say to the house of Israel, 'this is what the Sovereign LORD says: Repent! Turn from your idols and renounce all your detestable practices!
7 " 'When any Israelite or any alien living in Israel separates himself from me and sets up idols in his heart and puts a wicked stumbling block before his face and then goes to a prophet to inquire of me, I the LORD will answer him myself. 8 I will set my face against that man and make him an example and a byword. I will cut him off from my people. Then you will know that I am the LORD.
9 " 'And if the prophet is enticed to utter a prophecy, I the LORD have enticed that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand against him and destroy him from among my people Israel. 10 They will bear their guilt—the prophet will be as guilty as the one who consults him. 11 Then the people of Israel will no longer stray from me, nor will they defile themselves anymore with all their sins. They will be my people, and I will be their God, declares the Sovereign LORD.' "
Judgment Inescapable
12 The word of the LORD came to me: 13 "Son of man, if a country sins against me by being unfaithful and I stretch out my hand against it to cut off its food supply and send famine upon it and kill its men and their animals, 14 even if these three men—Noah, Daniel [a] and Job—were in it, they could save only themselves by their righteousness, declares the Sovereign LORD.
15 "Or if I send wild beasts through that country and they leave it childless and it becomes desolate so that no one can pass through it because of the beasts, 16 as surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, even if these three men were in it, they could not save their own sons or daughters. They alone would be saved, but the land would be desolate.
17 "Or if I bring a sword against that country and say, 'Let the sword pass throughout the land,' and I kill its men and their animals, 18 as surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, even if these three men were in it, they could not save their own sons or daughters. They alone would be saved.
19 "Or if I send a plague into that land and pour out my wrath upon it through bloodshed, killing its men and their animals, 20 as surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, even if Noah, Daniel and Job were in it, they could save neither son nor daughter. They would save only themselves by their righteousness.
21 "For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: How much worse will it be when I send against Jerusalem my four dreadful judgments—sword and famine and wild beasts and plague—to kill its men and their animals! 22 Yet there will be some survivors—sons and daughters who will be brought out of it. They will come to you, and when you see their conduct and their actions, you will be consoled regarding the disaster I have brought upon Jerusalem—every disaster I have brought upon it. 23 You will be consoled when you see their conduct and their actions, for you will know nothing in it that I have done without cause, declares the Sovereign LORD."
Aroused against his people and there was no remedy. 17 He brought up against them the king of the Babylonians, [a] who killed their young men with the sword in the sanctuary, and spared neither young man nor young woman, old man or aged. God handed all of them over to Nebuchadnezzar. 18 He carried to Babylon all the articles from the temple of God, both large and small, and the treasures of the LORD's temple and the treasures of the king and his officials. 19 They set fire to God's temple and broke down the wall of Jerusalem; they burned all the palaces and destroyed everything of value there.

Jesus told us we would absolutely go threw these things and he told us before hand so we would not go astray.

John 16
1"All this I have told you so that you will not go astray.

God bless you brother!

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please reply

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Dispensationally, the Tribulation period is basically the Dispensation of the Law with a few added features. Since the Church will have left in the rapture, the parenthetical Dispensation of Grace will be gone along with the doctrines unique to it. Thus the nation of Israel will again be the main object of God's concern. There will be a temple in the Tribulation, sacrifices will be offered, and salvation will again have a Jewish ring to it. More on this in the following chapters.

THE TRIBULATION PERIOD IS NOT A DISPENSATION OF LAW.


Revelation 12:11 (New International Version)

11They overcame him
by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony;
they did not love their lives so much
as to shrink from death.

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ccchhhrrriiisss

dmoney...

Chris you keep saying opinion or interpretation. Is there no certainty to the gospel or God’s word?
Yes, of course there is certainty in God's Word. However, your [u]OPINION[/u] about this matter (Bible prophecy) [i]may[/i] or [i]may not[/i] be 100% truth. There are many people here who will agree with your opinion. There are many people here who will NOT agree with your opinion. Who is correct? Is anyone totally correct in this? Is there even a way to know who is totally right or who is totally wrong? It is a cop out to say that the Bible proves your opinion...because it is difficult to find two very godly people who agree on everything.

Will people give their lives up for mere opinion or interpretation.
YES!!! This happens nearly every single day! Muslims will even strap bombs to their chest and commit murder-suicide because of their interpretations regarding their religion. Even in Christianity, there are "interpretations" of people who will watch their children die because they oppose medical treatment for sickness -- all because of their "interpretation" regarding such a matter. More importantly, there are people who will not only DIE for their interpretations of Biblical doctrines, but some will "kill" others with their words and hearts. How many very heated arguments have happened on this website -- where people are seeking God for a "revival" but can't seem to agree on some trivial matter?
Is there not fact in God’s word? If Jesus words are interpretations or opinions there is no way I will lay my life down and I believe anyone who has that line of thought will have a big problem spending their life on such shaky ground.
The problem with this is that you are assuming that you have a COMPLETE and TOTAL understanding of what you are reading. Do you? Do you have ALL KNOWLEDGE so that you can understand ALL MYSTERIES from God's Word? You see, I will be the first to acknowledge that I do not know the certainty of such a matter. I will also feel rather comfortable stating that none of us know the absolute certainty of this particular matter.

Chis there is such a thing called divine revelation that is what Daniel and John operated in .
So, are you invoking this claim? Are you claiming that you have "divine revelation" in regard to knowing exactly how the Lord will return? This is quite a bold claim. However, I know some people who feel the exact same way about a "divine revelation" -- yet they hold the opposite view from you. They also quote Scripture. They claim that "God revealed this 'truth'" to them. I have heard people who claimed to have a "divine revelation" in the form of a "dream" or a "vision" about how the "rapture" would take place...or how the Church will be around throughout the period of God's wrath. It seems to me that either one guy with a "divine revelation" is lying...or they both are.

I usually ignore such claims. Why? I know the Lord myself. I met Him when I was a teenager...crying out to God in a lonely field on a hot Texas night at a Christian youth camp. I've read the Word of God all the way through more times than I can count. I've seen things -- with my own eyes -- that I would hesitate to ever mention! I've experienced things...wonderful things...that I keep mostly between myself and God. Yet the more that I know Him...and His Word...the more I realize how much I do NOT know.

As for the people of God going threw God’s wrath the did in Egypt and the spirit of death past them over and the bible says we will over come the same way.
Well, I don't know that the Scriptures say that the wrath of God in Revelation will be dispersed EXACTLY like the plagues of Egypt. For one, only the "first born" was targeted for death (without the blood of a lamb). In addition, Jesus said that this would be a time "such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time" (Matthew 24:21). Yet again, we see that God provided a way of escape for the Hebrews.

Will God force the Bride of Christ to suffer (directly or indirectly) while His wrath is poured out upon the entire world?

To say "yes" or "no" is really a matter of interpretation. In fact, I am under the persuasion that we should NOT preach a "yes" or a "no" about this matter...because we do not know the certainty of this matter. I am concerned for those who teach that they know such a matter with absolute certainty...since we are still confined to this earthly shell...and we still see "through a glass, darkly" (I Corinthians 13:12). Can we teach all possible outcomes...while simply saying why we lean one way or another?

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I can see some points in what Chris is saying because not all Post-trib folks agree on whether we'll go 'through' the period of the Vials.

I'm one who doesn't and they'll sometimes say then I'm a Pre-Wrath believer - well yes I am - but I do not believe that we are taken to Heaven and believe we'll be gathered AT HIS COMING - that HE's only "Coming" once with the angels and the clouds and The Glory and like a thief and not twice in that fashion with all of Heaven behind Him - but they'll use these verses to prove we're still here ...

Rev 16:1-2 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and [b]pour out the vials of the wrath of God[/b] upon the earth.
And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore [b]upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.[/b]


But to me, there will definitely be people left on earth after we are caught up at the last or 7th trump that will not take "the mark" and will be the ones that are left for the Millenial reign for The LORD to rule & reign over.
That's who I feel are those in 16:2.


"Those who are alive and remain" ... "remain" is "survive" in Strong's - so I also believe that MOST of us will be dead by Rev 7.

I believe dmoney, that most of us 'will' be in Heaven by then - through death.


SHALOM!

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dmoney, I forgot to say - some of the post-trib folks that I know have 'over-lapping' of the seals, trumpets & vials and not all the same pattern of over-lapping at that - but that doesn't bother me at all - and even should we go through the vials because we are chosen to live here alive surviving - that's fine with me as well.
Hey, what do I care about 3 1/2 or even 7 yrs compared to Eternity. Yippeee - I love that word best = E T E R N I T Y.

Yes! :-D

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crsschk

dmoney,

I see you removed your last 2 replies - A series came to mind that is one of the best treatments of many of the things under discussion here;

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=133]Edgar F. Parkyns[/url]

It's broken down into 10 sessions under "Church History".

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ginnyrose

dmoney,

I have not read near all of the posts on this thread, but just want to share an insight I recently gained on this topic.

I read most of your original post but with an eye for certain scriptures and was pleased to see you post it.

Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:52 Jesus will come at "the last trumpet" a definite time. And forward to Revelation where it discusses in details these trumpets. Brother, I have read this many times but that definitive word "last" never caught my eye until recently.

I got really excited in my spirit when this insight came.

It seems to me that people are setting themselves up for spiritual failure by believing Jesus will snatch them out of the world without experiencing tribulations. Let's face it: this pre-trib theory appeals to the flesh, nothing less which is why it is so attractive. So while the going is relatively easy now, we must stay close to the LORD so when these severe trials come we will not lose heart/faith.

Blessings,
ginnyrose

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The Christian believer has been promised that Christ has already (past tense) delivered him/her from the [b]wrath to come[/b].

10. And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. (1 Thes 1:10)


The definition of wrath? Noah Websters 1828 Dictionary states:

[b]God's Wrath, in Scripture, in His holy and just indignation against sin, Romans 13.[/b]

God's indignation and judgment will come upon fallen man during the Tribulation. The ones going through it are those who have rejected God and accepted antichrist as their God. The Jews that come to belief in Messiah and that are still alive (not beheaded) during this outouring of God's wrath will be protected by God during this period of wrath.

Also, Hell is the final place where God will continually pour out his wrath on fallen man & satan and his fallen angels forever and ever.

Sincerley,

Walter


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I for one believe that the Rapture will take place at the end of the age before the start of the final 7 year Tribulation Period prophesied of in Daniel 9:27.

Therefore, I believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture.

There are others who believe the Rapture will happen at some time during the Tribulation Period.

These believers hold to positions called Mid-Trib or else Pre-Wrath.

Then lastly is the view that the catching up of believers will not take place until the close of the Tribulation as Christ is descending to the earth to destroy the wicked. This is known as Post-Trib.

One commonly used argument raised against the Pre-Trib position originates from the Rapture Scripture found in I Cor. 15:52. The Scripture reads, "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

[b]Opponents to the Pre-Trib teaching maintain that this "last trump" must be the same one that the 7th Angel blows during the latter part of the Tribulation Period which is recorded in Revelation 10:7 since this is the last trumpet mentioned being blown in the Book of Revelation.

Pre-Trib OPPONENTS find themselves at odds with Scripture on this point when faced with the fact that the "angelic" 7th trumpet of Rev. 10:7 is not the last biblically recorded supernatural trumpet to ever be blown.

Isaiah 27:13 describes what will take place after Jesus Christ has returned to the earth. The time frame presented is after the Tribulation has concluded and Christ has begun His Millennial Reign. It is during this time that a supernatural trumpet will be heard throughout the lands.[/b]

Quoting we read, "And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the Lord in the Holy Mount at Jerusalem."

This Scripture, along with Zechariah 9:14, which tells of the Lord blowing another trumpet at His return, provide substantial clarification regarding the timing of the Rapture.

[b]First it verifies that the Last Trumpet spoken of at the Rapture in I Thess. 4:16 is a uniquely appointed trumpet designated for the end of the Church age and thoroughly refutes the Mid-Trib assertions that there are no other trumpets blown after the angelic tribulation trumpet of Rev. 10:7.[/b]

This is conclusive by the trumpets of Zechariah 9 and Isaiah 27 being blown at the very close and then again after the Tribulation - thus after the angelic 7th trumpet of Rev. 10:7
[b]The angelic trump of Rev. 10:7 only presents the last in a series of seven blown trumpets.[/b]

[b]Revelation 11:15 reveals that this trumpet announces the day when Jesus will begin His reign and will lay His claim to the earth.

Without animosity for fellow believers in Christ who adhere to Post-Trib Rapture teachings, Isa. 27:13 and Zech. 9:14 also greatly narrows the field of debate as to the timing of the Rapture by eliminating the Post-Trib position entirely.
This is shown by the Isa. 27:13 statement about the people who "were ready to perish." The mention of the fact that these people were about to perish verifies that they will be mortals.
The central question of importance is, "Who are these surviving mortals?"[/b]

According to Post-Trib adherents, when Jesus Christ returns with His saints (see Rev. 19:4 & Jude verses 14-15) the Church will have been caught up only moments earlier to join the Lord for warfare as He is descending from Heaven to do battle at Armageddon.

Their belief is that there is no time allowance for any communion or celebration between the Church and the Lord, but instead are abruptly changed into glorious, celestial beings in order to partake in the bloodiest war in history. For a brief moment the Lord's trumpet blast prophesied of in Zech. 9:14 might appear to support this scenario.

Here the problem arises with the unknown mortals of Isa. 27:12-13. We know already by Isaiah that these mortals who were ready to perish are believers in the Lord because they are going up to Jerusalem during the millennium to worship Him.

So our first significant revelation from Scripture is that these people shown living during the earthly rule of Christ are mortal believers, who for some reason were not caught up to meet Christ and glorified with immortal bodies at His coming as Post-Trib theology requires.

Secondly, if these people had been unbelievers at Christ's coming with His Saints, according to Rev. 13:7-8 they would have had to be destroyed as followers of the Anti-Christ.

Speaking of this man of sin and his followers we read, "And it was given unto him to make war with the [tribulation] saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindred's, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of the lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
Revelation 19:20-21 states without reservation that the Anti-Christ and all his followers are destroyed at Christ's coming. John 3:18 makes this deadly fate of unbelievers at Christ's coming quite plain.

The conclusion is logical and inescapable. Since there are mortal believers left alive during Christ's reign who were not glorified at Christ's coming they cannot be members of the entity known as the Church. Thus no Rapture of the Church will be taking place at the close of the Tribulation Period.

[b]The saint-filled Church which is seen returning with Christ at His coming at Armageddon in Rev. 19 could only have been Raptured some time earlier then the Post-Trib teaching proposes.

As to who the mortal Millennium believers are who were about to perish, they can only be those who became believers after the Rapture took place.[/b]

These are the Tribulation saints who had to survive the murderous pursuit of the Anti-Christ described in Rev. 13:7. They will be permitted to live on in Christ's kingdom alongside the resurrected Old Testament saints who were promised an earthly inheritance.

The simple reason why they were not Raptured and glorified at Christ's coming is because the Rapture had to have already taken place prior to that time. These are the surviving and resurrected believers who will repopulate the planet under Christ's ruler ship as is revealed to us in such passages as Zechariah 8:3-5 and Daniel 12:9 & 13.

[b]Additional scriptural proof for this prophetic picture is conclusive. The initial gathering together of all the wicked for destruction at Christ's coming with His Saints can be verified by the scriptural passages found in Matthew 13:30,38-42 & 49-50 & 24:38-41.[/b]

Then the subsequent preserving and gathering together of the remaining mortal believers with a trumpet after His return is shown in Matt. 24:22 & 29-30.

It is a worthwhile endeavor for prophecy students to more thoroughly explore Zechariah 9:14 where we are told of the one other time than I Corinthians 15:22 when God will blow His trumpet.

As we have shared, the time of this trumpet blast is at the close of the Great Tribulation. Chapters 9 & 10 of Zech., when read in full context, abundantly refutes any notion that this is the trumpet blast heralding the Rapture since believers are not changed into glorified beings, but are instead anointed upon the earth as great warriors. They do not return with the Lord from Heaven, but are aided from Heaven.

We are shown that these are mortal believers who, after the Lord returns, will thrive as mortals in the land of Israel. Zechariah 10:8-10 further reveals that these are the same mortals who in Isa. 27:13 were about to perish in the lands of Assyria and Egypt.

The passage in Zech. 9:14 prophesies that the day of this trumpet blast is the same day of the Lord's return. If at any point in history there could possibly be a Post-Trib Rapture of the living this surely should have been it, but there is none!

[b]The unbelievers are gathered and destroyed at this time while the believers remain mortals on the earth to fight, conquer, regather, thrive and reproduce.[/b]

The glorious last trumpet of I Cor. 15:52, when the Church is Raptured, had to have taken place at some point earlier. If not, then it would be impossible to find any mortals left to repopulate the millennial earth; everyone would have been immortalized or destroyed when Christ returned at Armageddon.

[b][color=000000]Revelation 11:15 & 12:10 reveal that the trumpet blast of Rev. 10:;7 declares the end of Satan's position of authority over the earth from his previous position in the heavens, not the Rapture of the Church.

In conclusion, the Scriptures offer no support in any manner to the teaching that the trumpets of the 7th "Angel" in Rev. 10:7 is the same as the trumpet of "God" blown at the Rapture in I Thess. 4 & I Cor. 15.[/color][/b]

[url=http://rapturewatch.cephasministry.com/325%20The%20Last%20Trump%20-%20Part%20II.html]Rapture Watch[/url]

Sincerely,

Walter

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crsschk

dmoney,

I see you removed your last 2 replies - A series came to mind that is one of the best treatments of many of the things under discussion here;

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=133]Edgar F. Parkyns[/url]

It's broken down into 10 sessions under "Church History".

dmoney, wanted to clarify this - Generally speaking we do not advise removing replies and prefer that they are left adding an edit or follow up explanation - it just helps to keep things fluid. I was responding to that which you had removed - It brought the series to mind. Having said that, no harm done.

Waltern -

I for one believe that the Rapture will take place ...

Therefore, I believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture.

There are others who believe the Rapture will happen at some time during the Tribulation Period.

These believers hold to positions called Mid-Trib or else Pre-Wrath.

Then lastly is the view that the catching up of believers will not take place until the close of the Tribulation as Christ is descending to the earth to destroy the wicked. This is known as Post-Trib.

There is yet another view that is not really a view at all -

"I don't know"


Without animosity for fellow believers in Christ who adhere to Post-Trib Rapture teachings

Glad for that inclusion.


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ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Sister Ginny,

It seems to me that people are setting themselves up for spiritual failure by believing Jesus will snatch them out of the world without experiencing tribulations.
With the exception of the "health/wealth" crowd, I don't know anyone who believes such a thing -- regardless of what they believe about the timing and manner of the Lord's return. I have often read this sort of statement in these types of discussions. However, I think that most of us are entirely aware that we will encounter tribulations and persecutions in this world. Jesus said, "[i]In the world, ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world[/i]" (John 16:33). The difference, however, is in regard to the wrath of God. At that time, God will pour out His wrath upon the entire earth.

Those who believe that Christ will gather His Bride before that time certainly understand that the Church must endure tribulations and persecutions; They just don't think that this tribulation will come at the hand of God. Even amongst the post-trib believers, there are questions about whether or not the Bride of Christ will suffer from God's wrath. Some teach that the Bride of Christ will be miraculously "saved" during that time (which makes me wonder what makes this any different from the accusation about trying to miss out on tribulation?). Others teach that the Bride of Christ will suffer from most of the wrath that God pours out upon the Earth. Still others teach that the Bride will not directly suffer from God's wrath, but will indirectly suffer from it (not killed by fire/flood/plague, but no food, homes or drinking water).

I do think that it is helpful to understand the different views when engaging the various views in discussion.

Let's face it: this pre-trib theory appeals to the flesh, nothing less which is why it is so attractive. So while the going is relatively easy now, we must stay close to the LORD so when these severe trials come we will not lose heart/faith.
Sister, this idea that the Lord will gather His Bride does not appeal to my flesh (either physically or a sinful nature). Indeed, we should always be ready to suffer for His Name's sake. We shold always be prepared for trials, tribulations and persecutions. The question here even transcends whether or not we are willing to suffer -- because we should always be willing to suffer for the cause of Christ!

Ultimately, I agree with what Mike said about a third position in this debate: "[u]I don't know[/u]." I would go much further and say that this is the position that we all have to a greater extent. Few (if any) of us can say with absolute certainty just how and when the Lord will return. Even those who claim to feel such certainty do have at least some slivers of doubt regarding how they are interpreting the Scriptures. Most of us, in fact, base our views about the Lord's return at least slightly upon those theories that we have been taught. Even the slightest sliver of doubt regarding our knowledge is, of course, doubt (and a lack of absolute certainty).

It would be great to meet individuals who have never read a book on Biblical Eschatology. It would be great to find believers who haven't read books and articles by the Hal Lindseys, Tim LaHayes, Gary DeMar or an opinionated Bible commentary. It would be great to meet a believer who had never been instructed about how the end will come. What would such a believer think if they simply read the Scriptures?

When I traveled to the indigenous Tarahumara in the rugged Sierra Madre Occidentals of Mexico, I met believers who had never seen a product produced by electricity. These believers had come to the Lord via a Tarahumara pastor who had come to the Lord while fighting a sickness. This pastor, armed only with a Spanish Bible, carried the Gospel to the Tarahumara speaking tribes deep inside of the vast mountains of the Sierra Madre. Many of them were unaware that there was even a place called "Mexico." This pastor had no Bible school training, no commentaries, and no books on doctrines. He didn't know about TBN or the internet. He simply learned the Spanish language so that he could read the Bible.

This pastor had converted a small flock of believers (who had been converted from animism -- the Tarahumara tradition of worshipping the spirits found throughout the Earth...in plants, animals, people, stars, rocks, rivers, etc...). I attended one of their Bible studies, which consisted of the pastor simply read the Scriptures in Spanish and then interpreted them into Tarahumara (since the Tarahumara is mostly a verbal language and most do not know how to read anyway). The believers in this tribe were memorizing and reciting the Scriptures that the pastor would read.

During one of the services, I listened to the "testimony" of an elderly Tarahumara believer who was thanking God for all that they had. He lived in a cave and was experiencing persecution from family and other members of the tribe. Yet this believer was not moved...except to rejoice in these temporary troubles. Interestingly, this old believer said that he was looking forward to the day when the Lord would "take Him from this world before God judged this world." Now, I am not sure if this guy was referring to a judgment that was the period of God's wrath. However, it did sound like it.

In the end (pardon the pun), I do think that we should just be quite hesistant about teaching this matter as a certainty. I lean toward a notion that the Groom might take His Bride before the wrath of God is poured out upon this world. However, I am fully aware that this mght not be the case. Regardless of just HOW the end will come, I am willing and prepared to suffer any sort of trial, persecution and tribulation that might befall me for my faith. I am even willing to suffer wrath if it were to come from the hand of God. Suffering, indeed, is so momentary. Jesus suffered "for the joy set before him" (Hebrews 12:2). What an awesome thought that this life -- even if lived to the ripe old age of 120 -- is so exceedingly short when compared with the vast expanse of eternity. The prize for us, after all, is to see His face.

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I'm in full agreement with you Chris on Not getting our eschatology from books and only from unbiased study of His Word, praying that the Holy Spirit would help us.

The verse that concerns me for those who teach on radio, etc., that they will be 'Gone before' the antiChrist appears is 2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

I hear it everyday on Christian radio from the big and well respected names out there. They preach that the Church will be gone 'before the tribulation which begins with the antiChrist'.
The people are hearing this day in and day out that they will Not Be Here when antiChrist is revealed.

What can we say to that? That truly concerns me, even for loved ones - very much so.

S
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To Jesus-is-God:


[b]The Rapture versus the 2nd Coming of Christ[/b]

"That day" referred to in 2 Thes 2:3 is [b]not the rapture. "That day" is referring to the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ,[/b] at the end of the 7 year Tribulation. The term “falling away” is referring to apostacy (Strongs Concordance #646 = Apostasia)

Paul was taught face to face by Jesus Christ for 3 years—first in Arabia, and then in Damascas (Gal 1:12-18). Paul taught the revelation knowledge given to him by Jesus Christ of the coming rapture of the Church, before the beginning of the Tribulation. This Doctrine was not taught by the other Disciples, only Paul.

In 1 Thes 4:13-17 Paul starts off by telling them that he does not want them to be ignorant of the coming rapture of the Church (because they were ignorant of this fact!)

(1 Thes 4:13-17)
13. But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

[b]Paul preached a pre tribulation position. The whole 2nd Thessalonians letter only makes sense if Paul had taught them a pre-trib Rapture in 1st Thessalonians. Think about it. They were horrified at being told that the Day of the Lord had come. Why? If they were post trib they would have concluded that the 2nd Coming was only seven years away. But if they were pre-trib such news would mean that they has missed the Rapture, and that would mean that they weren’t saved. Now that would be cause for the kind of alarm their letter to Paul conveyed.(2 Thes. 2:2) Paul explained that the Day of the Lord (Christ’s second coming, at the end of the tribulation) couldn’t come until three things take place. The falling away, or apostasy, the removal of the restraining power holding the anti-Christ back (the Church), and finally the anti-Christ’s official introduction.[/b]

The first of these three is underway today with the Emergent Church movement and the splitting up of the Evangelical Church over environmental and political issues. The second is the soon coming Rapture of the Church, and the third is the Abomination of Desolation that Jesus also spoke of in Matt. 24:15.

Take heart, it all makes sense. Paul has told us, because he told the Thessallonians in the 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 that the rapture comes first. In 2 Thes 2:2 Paul explains that the [b]Day of the Lord (Christ’s second coming, at the end of the tribulation) couldn’t come until three things take place.[/b] The falling away, or apostasy, the removal of the restraining power holding the anti-Christ back (the Chruch, filled with the Holy Spirit), and finally the anti-Christ’s official introduction.

Sincerely,


Walter


Jesus-is-GOD wrote:
I'm in full agreement with you Chris on Not getting our eschatology from books and only from unbiased study of His Word, praying that the Holy Spirit would help us.

The verse that concerns me for those who teach on radio, etc., that they will be 'Gone before' the antiChrist appears is 2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

I hear it everyday on Christian radio from the big and well respected names out there. They preach that the Church will be gone 'before the tribulation which begins with the antiChrist'.
The people are hearing this day in and day out that they will Not Be Here when antiChrist is revealed.

What can we say to that? That truly concerns me, even for loved ones - very much so.

S
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Walter, I felt your kindness last week when you posted to me but I couldn't answer because I used to believe pre-trib and it's so hard to disagree. I suppose I could just ask two questions maybe. If the Church is the restrainer - who are all these people that Daniel and John etc are talking about called the Saints, that are being beheaded and persecuted for not taking the mark or worshipping the little horn? and why are those who are killed by this son-of-perdition, gaining more honor in Rev 20:4-6 then those who left 'before' this anti-Christ came?

I do sincerely thank you for the kindness in both of your posts.
GOD Bless you for it.

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Jesus-is-God asked:

who are all these people that Daniel and John etc are talking about called the Saints, that are being beheaded and persecuted for not taking the mark or worshipping the little horn? and why are those who are killed by this son-of-perdition, gaining more honor in Rev 20:4-6 then those who left 'before' this anti-Christ came?

I do sincerely thank you for the kindness in both of your posts.

My response:

Daniel is referring to the Jews, and gentiles, who enter the Tribulation and come to belief in Messiah. Many will be beheaded during the Tribulation, hence we read:
Rev 6:9-11
9. And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11. And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

They will be raptured after the Tribulation, and rule with Christ during the 1,000 milennial reign upon the earth. Also, the Saints raptured before the Tribulation will rule and reign with Christ as well.

The Christian believers, before the Tribulation, who have been raptured into their new glorified bodies, return to heaven with Jesus Christ. At the end of the tribulation, the "Saints", that's us, will return with Christ to rule and reign for 1,000 years with Him.

Zech 14:5 is just one reference to this event:
5. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come,[b] and all the saints with thee.[/b]

Don't forget, God is not finished with the Jews. Christ will rule and reign for 1,000 years with a rod of iron, from Jerusalem, and we, in our glorified bodies, will somehow be part of this wonderful event.

God bless,

Walter


Jesus-is-GOD wrote:
Walter, I felt your kindness last week when you posted to me but I couldn't answer because I used to believe pre-trib and it's so hard to disagree. I suppose I could just ask two questions maybe. If the Church is the restrainer - who are all these people that Daniel and John etc are talking about called the Saints, that are being beheaded and persecuted for not taking the mark or worshipping the little horn? and why are those who are killed by this son-of-perdition, gaining more honor in Rev 20:4-6 then those who left 'before' this anti-Christ came?

I do sincerely thank you for the kindness in both of your posts.
GOD Bless you for it.

S
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I've got the Featured Sermon buffering, so I can come back and ask more questions. I'll post out those verses to discuss more fully.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


If there's two raptures, why is this one called "the first"?


Edit: the sermon started up. Hit submit to soon. Failed to say "Thank you!"

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Hi Jesus-is-God:

This is the teaching of the Firstfruits of the Resurrection:

All believers, starting with Jesus Christ (the God Man), and ending with the resurrection of the last believer, are part of the "First Resurrection". Only those taking part in this resurrection will live with Him for eternity!

Christ is the firstfruits of the Resurrection.
1 Cor 15:20-23
20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. (We, who are resurrected "aftereward" are part of Christ's Firstfruit of the Resurrection, are part of Christ at His coming!)

We (believers) are the firstfruits of the Spirit, that will receive our new resurrected bodies when he comes to get us at the rapture, as described above, and we will be like Him! The rapture takes place before the Tribulation and the “Day of the Lord”
Romans 8:23-25
23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 24For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

When we receive our new resurrected bodies, we will be like Him!
James 1:18
18Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures


This is another description of the Rapture and the receipt of our new resurrected bodies:
1 Cor 15:52-57
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

This is another description of the Rapture.
1 Thes 4:13-17
13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


This passage describes what will happen when Christ comes back to redeem us to Himself. We will be perfect like Him in all ways!
1 Cor. 13:9-12
9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

1 John 3:2
2Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear (at the Rapture), we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure/


[color=0000FF]What follows is a a description of the rapture of the people that were not saved before the Tribulation, that went through the Tribulation and became believers in Messiah (Jesus Christ) (saved) and were beheaded and or killed during the tribulation.

At the end of the Tribulation Christ throws Satan into the bottomless pit for 1,000 years and judges the beheaded believers (described above). This is a judgment of rewards, not punishment. The judgment of punishment is the Great White Throne Judgment mentioned in Rev. 20:11-15 and is for all non-believers. " 11. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
[/color]

Rev 20:1-6
1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Jesus Christ is the "Firstfruits of the resurrection.
1 Cor 15:20-23

20. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

We are resurrected at the rapture, and are part of the firstfruits of the resurrection. Christ was the first Man ever resurrected that lives eternally, and is the "First" of the "Firstfruits. Those that are raptured before the tribulation at the rapture are part of that "Firstfruits" resurrection that started with Jesus. Those that are killed and beheaded during the tribulation will get their new resurrected bodies at the beginning of the thousand year reign-[b][color=990000] this is again part of the same "Firstfruits", part of the "First Resurrection".[/color][/b]

Christ was resurrected from the dead on Sunday, the 17th of Nissan, the day of the celebration of the [b]feast of Firstfruits. Christ is our Firstfruits![/b]
20. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
(1 Cor 15:20)


Christ died on the Cross on Thurday, the 14th of Nissan, on the day of the feast of Passover. He was sacrificed on the cross at the morning sacrifice, at 9:00 A.M., the 3rd hour and gave up the ghost at 3:00 P.M., the 9th hour, the time of the evening sacrifice.
[b]Christ is our Passover![/b]
1 Cor 5:7
7. Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:


Christ will eventually fulfill all of the feasts of the Lord, as prophesized in Leviticus!


God bless,

Walter


Jesus-is-GOD wrote:
I've got the Featured Sermon buffering, so I can come back and ask more questions. I'll post out those verses to discuss more fully.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

If there's two raptures, why is this one called "the first"?


Edit: the sermon started up. Hit submit to soon. Failed to say "Thank you!"

"
[color=0000FF]What follows[/color]

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Dear brother the scriptures you gave actually confirm the post trib. rapture. I ask you to be open minded. I read all the scriptures you sent and they actually confirm post trib. My intention is to protect with the truth, not to be right. If we know the truth we will be the bride that has made her self ready. If not we will be a foolish virgin that does not have oil to keep our lamps lit. To tell you the truth I would rather you be right. Who wants to be killed by the antichrist or go threw the tribulation after all.

1 Corinthians 15:23 (New International Version)
23But each in his own turn: Christ, the first fruits; then, WHEN HE COMES, those who belong to him.
This scripture says the resurrection of the dead happens WHEN JESUS COMES.

Zechariah 9:14 (New International Version)
The LORD Will Appear
14 Then the LORD will appear over them;
his arrow will FLASH LIKE LIGHTNING.
The Sovereign LORD will sound the TRUMPET;
he will march in the storms of the south,

Even the title of this passage says this is the coming of the Lord.

You said.


It is a worthwhile endeavor for prophecy students to more thoroughly explore Zechariah 9:14 where we are told of the one other time than I Corinthians 15:22 when God will blow His trumpet.


Both of these scriptures say the trumpet is blown at his coming. This is consistent with all of the scriptures. You will see that the resurrection of the dead the last trumpet and Christ second coming all happen at the same time. This is also when believers are gathered, given immortal bodies and caught up with Christ. These believers meet Christ in the air at his coming. According to Rev. 20 the resurrection of the dead happens at the end of trib.

Revelation 20:4-5 (New International Version)
4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the SOULS of those who had been BEHEADED because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. THEY CAM TO LIFE and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the FIRST resurrection.
This is also at the coming of the Lord according to Rev.19

1 Corinthians 15:50-52 (New International Version)
50I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMPET. For the trumpet will sound, THE DEAD WILL BE RAISED imperishable, and we will be changed.


This scripture also puts the trumpet and the dead being raised at the same time.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (New International Version)
15ACORDING TO THE LORD’S OWN WORD, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till THE COMING OF THE LORD, WILL CERTIANLY NOT PRECEDE THOSE WHO HAVE FALLEN ASLEEP. 16For the LORD HIMSELF will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the TRUMPET call of God, and the DEAD in Christ will rise FIRST. 17AFTER that, we who are still alive and are left will be CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
This scripture once again confirms that the rapture the resurrection of the dead, the trumpet call and the second coming of the Lord all happen at the same time. 1 Cor.15:23 also tells us that Christ is the first fruits, and then when he comes those who belong to him.


Luke 17:24-37 (New International Version)
24For the Son of Man in his day[a] will be like the LIGHTNING, which flashes and lights up the sky from ONE END TO THE OTHER. 25But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.

ZECHARIAH 9:14 SAYS HIS ARROW WILL FLASH LIKE LIGHTNING.

26"Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. 27People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and DESTROYED THEM ALL.
28"It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and DESTROYED THEM ALL.
30"IT WILL BE JUST LIKE THIS on the day the Son of Man is revealed. 31On that day no one who is on the roof of his house, with his goods inside, should go down to get them. Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything. 32REMEMBER LOT’S WIFE! 33Whoever tries to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left."[b]

This scripture refers to the last judgment executed by Christ himself the destruction of the false prophet antichrist and the rest of the inhabitants of the Earth. The passages above say it will be just like in those days (DESTROYED THEM ALL) I would also like to point out that JESUS tells us to remember LOT’S WIFE who did not escape because her heart was still attached to some thing in that world. God is going to pull his people out before this judgment at his coming.

37"Where, Lord?" they asked.
He replied, "Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather."

This scripture V 37 refers to that judgment in Rev. 19 and Ezekiel 39

Ezekiel 39:17-20 (New International Version)
17 "Son of man, this is what the Sovereign LORD says: Call out to every kind of bird and all the wild animals: 'Assemble and come together from all around to the sacrifice I am preparing for you, the great sacrifice on the mountains of Israel. There you will eat flesh and drink blood. 18 You will eat the flesh of mighty men and drink the blood of the princes of the earth as if they were rams and lambs, goats and bulls—all of them fattened animals from Bashan. 19 At the sacrifice I am preparing for you, you will eat fat till you are glutted and drink blood till you are drunk. 20 At my table you will eat your fill of horses and riders, mighty men and soldiers of every kind,' declares the Sovereign LORD.

Revelation 19:17-21 (New International Version)
17And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, "Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great."
19Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21THE REST OF THEM WERE KILLED with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

Matthew 24:26-31 (New International Version)
26"So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27For as LIGHTNING that comes from the east is VISIBLE EVEN IN THE WEST, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever there is a carcass, there the VULTURES WILL GATHER.
29IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE DISTRESS OF THOSE DAYS
" 'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'[a]
30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a LOUD TRUMPET call, and they will GATHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.


It clearly says immediately after the distress of those days, showes the gathering, the trumpet call and the coming of the LORD ALL AT THE SAME TIME.


As far as Isaiah 27:12-13 all this scripture says is these people were once perishing in Assyria.

1.\tIsaiah 10:5
[ God's Judgment on Assyria ] "Woe to the Assyrian, the rod of my anger, in whose hand is the club of my wrath!
Isaiah 10:4-6 (in Context) Isaiah 10 (Whole Chapter)
2.\tIsaiah 10:24
Therefore, this is what the Lord, the LORD Almighty, says: "O my people who live in Zion, do not be afraid of the Assyrians, who beat you with a rod and lift up a club against you, as EGYPT did.

AND WE ALSO KNOW THAT ISRIEL WAS EXILED IN EGYPT.


Why would God tell us to be careful that no one deceives us,” saying I am the Christ. “If we were not going to be here when the antichrist emerges. Why would Christ tell us in so many passages what his coming would look like if we would never be here to see it?

Concerning chapter12 of Rev. I don’t know what you are talking about ,because this chapter spans before Christ birth to the trib. period.Rev.11:15 is at the coming of the Lord and the Lord taking possession of the Earth which lines up with all of the other scriptures . Not to mention the two prophets-witnesses are called up to heaven after being risen from the dead


Rev.10:7 says the 7th trumpet concludes God’s mystery it is the end of the matter. Once again the key to the mater is the dead rise at his coming 1 Cor 15:23 at the end of trib. Rev. 20 at the last trumpet 1 Cor. 15:52 and we will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep-the dead in Christ according to 1Cor.15:52


Other scriptures that support this are as follows:Acts1:11, FOUR DIFERENT TIMES Jesus says I will raise him up at the last day in John 6:39,40,44 and 54 Luke21:27-28 Luke21:19 Mark 13:13 Mark13:26-27

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Chris I appreciate your wisdom and eagerness to discuss the scriptures .You are very right when you say we see through a glass darkly. I believe it also says that if I can fathom all mysteries and all knowlage, and have a faith that can move mountains, but have not LOVE ,I am nothing. So I just wanted to say I LOVE YOU BROTHER and I appreciate your passion!

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sonofthunder

The one thing that is clear in all this discussion - is how "unclear" much of this IS in the minds and hearts of professing disciples of Christ... both here, and abroad around the globe.

Just how diverse the views and the opinions are - on this whole topic and issue (is evidenced) in the fact to all who have taken part in this thread - thus far. (And That too i might add Is another thing that is clear in all this discussion)

Therefore: Who should we believe? who is right in all this? conversely who is wrong? whose view - is the right one? Whose word should we believe and hold to? both good and valid questions...

Funny thing was: I was only thinking in the last some 24 hours about those so-called "prophecy" experts and all those "end-time event" experts that come onto our radio and television waves!!

Each claiming to be ~ EXPERT IN ALL MATTERS PERTAINING TO PROPHECY AND ESCHATOLOGY EVENTS!

I HAD A MAN RECENTLY CONFRONT ME SEVERAL WEEKS AGO - WHO WAS ABSOLUTELY ADAMANT HE HAD FOUND NOT 1 , BUT 7 DIFFERENT RESURRECTIONS IN THE NEW TESTAMENT BIBLE ... AND ALL STILL TO COME. And he could prove every single one of them. And he was adamant that that the only thing that joins the dots in scripture IN HIS MIND was the pre- trib rapture. Yet when i pointed out the chronological order in 2 thess 2:1-4 it just didnt click, gel, or register with him what i said...and so he went right back to pre-trib rapture (left behind theory-isms) and (modern fabling) of events not yet found in scripture. Well at least NOT conclusively. Nobody has scripturally and conclusivally convinced me yet..of pre-trib rapture escapism...for the church!!

However: We must dig in and dig deep to know for ourselves what the correct biblical position is on all (such) matters!! You have an anointing abiding in you...and ye have NO NEED that any man...teach you! And ye know all things with that unction. Always remember that in "MOST" cases everbody (you listen to) and everbody elses' readings you (read) are usually the result of ...somebody elses' beliefs and doctrines, who themselves ARE the products of another persons views, who is (yet again) the product of someone elses' (views)...and on, and on, and on down that chain of command and DOWN plumbline. But Where in all this? does anyone (ever stop long enough) to say...wait a minute ...what does the word say? that's what i need to know...what doth scripture say? In one sense forget about what everyone else is saying...i need to know for MYSELF what it says and how it reads. WHAT DOES THE WORD OF THE LIVING GOD SAY TO ME? And i will (let) his holy ghost guide me into all truth...GETTING STILL AND QUIET BEFORE HIM...SHUTTING OUT ALL THE NOISES OF THE WORLD!! and teach me HOLY GHOST!

The one thing: That is clear in all this discussion is? ... i don't think any one person has ALL light, AND ALL KNOWLEDGE - and NEITHER HAVE any (yet) come into (ALL truth) on this one BIG topic - covered in the bible!

Thanks everyone (S.O.F)

C
Christinyou

Confusion over Confusion: 2 Thes 2:1-6

Because Paul, in 2 Thessalonians, said the Antichrist would be revealed before the Day of the Christ, post and pre-wrath adherents frequently try to cite this passage as one that refutes the pre-trib rapture.

To quell the Thessalonian's misunderstanding that they had somehow entered the tribulation, Paul told them the Antichrist must first be revealed. By telling them they had no reason to panic, Paul is clearly disputing the idea that the Thessalonians could someday find themselves facing the tribulation hour.

I'm constantly being irked by Post-trib and pre-wrath folks' consistent, or better yet deliberate, failure to accept the simple fact that the pre-trib doctrine calls for a rapture and a second coming. Because they only glean the prophetic word for one event--the second coming--they're unable to recognize pre-trib rapture passages.

Of course, when you fuse the two advents together, you end up with verses that appear to contradict each other: 1 Thessalonians 5:9, "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ," and Revelation 13:7, "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

Reverse Logic Stuck In Reverse

Many people are against the pre-trib rapture simply because they see it as being the dominant view on the timing of Christ's return for the Church. The anti-pretribulationists often think they are the last remaining true believers. I'm simply dumbfounded over why some people choose rebellion against the majority view as their guide for finding truth.

The measurement of popularity alone is a terrible way to determine something's validity. It is particularly strange when people solely rely on the contrarian view to judge truth from fiction. I utilize contrarian views all the time to help determine what is truthful; however, it would be a terrible mistake on my part if I made Contrarianism the core foundation of any of my beliefs.

If you're using reverse logic, you need to support your conclusions. The vast majority of the population would agree that apples grow on apple trees and cherries grow on cheery trees. The pure novelty of the opposite being true does not in any way help make it so. Unless you see farmers gluing apples onto cherry trees or picking cherries from apple trees, you have no basis to think that these two fruits do not grow on anything but the trees that share the same name.

Some people are clearly more in love with the idea of a conspiracy than they are the truth. Every time an airplane crashes to the earth there's someone who will proclaim it was caused by anything from an act of terrorism to a bizarre government plot. It's just not exciting enough to say it was a mechanical problem that led to the crash.

The idea that the pre-trib rapture is the dominant view is not correct in the first place. Most evangelicals would say they look for a pre-trib rapture, but if you include all Christians, pretribulationists would rank third behind post-trib and preterist adherents.

In Christ: Phillip

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Hello Christinyou:

You posted:

Of course, when you fuse the two advents together, you end up with verses that appear to contradict each other: 1 Thessalonians 5:9, "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ," and Revelation 13:7, "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

My response:

There is an "answer" for the above "contradictory" verses posted above.

Revelation 13:7 is addressed to the Jews and Gentiles that did not believe in Messiah (Jesus Christ) before the Tribulation began. However, during the Tribulation they came to belief in Jesus Christ. Most of these believers will be beheaded by the Antichrist for their belief in Messiah.

Reference to where these Tribulation Saints will be after they have be beheaded is found here: (Rev 6:9-11)
9. And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11. And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Also of note, the Bible is not written in chronological order, like the western mind is familiar with. In other words Rev 13:7 (the persecution of the saints) occurs before Rev 6:9-11. (the resting place of the souls of the executed believers)
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

1 Thessalonians 5:9 is addressed to Christian believers, before the Tribulation commences, who believe in Jesus Christ as Lord. The Christian believer of today has been promised that he will escape the "wrath to come".

What is the "wrath to come"? It is the Great Tribulation, as prophesized by Daniel. It is also a reference to Hell.

Sincerely,

Walter


Christinyou wrote:
Confusion over Confusion: 2 Thes 2:1-6

Because Paul, in 2 Thessalonians, said the Antichrist would be revealed before the Day of the Christ, post and pre-wrath adherents frequently try to cite this passage as one that refutes the pre-trib rapture.

To quell the Thessalonian's misunderstanding that they had somehow entered the tribulation, Paul told them the Antichrist must first be revealed. By telling them they had no reason to panic, Paul is clearly disputing the idea that the Thessalonians could someday find themselves facing the tribulation hour.

I'm constantly being irked by Post-trib and pre-wrath folks' consistent, or better yet deliberate, failure to accept the simple fact that the pre-trib doctrine calls for a rapture and a second coming. Because they only glean the prophetic word for one event--the second coming--they're unable to recognize pre-trib rapture passages.

Of course, when you fuse the two advents together, you end up with verses that appear to contradict each other: 1 Thessalonians 5:9, "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ," and Revelation 13:7, "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

Reverse Logic Stuck In Reverse

Many people are against the pre-trib rapture simply because they see it as being the dominant view on the timing of Christ's return for the Church. The anti-pretribulationists often think they are the last remaining true believers. I'm simply dumbfounded over why some people choose rebellion against the majority view as their guide for finding truth.

The measurement of popularity alone is a terrible way to determine something's validity. It is particularly strange when people solely rely on the contrarian view to judge truth from fiction. I utilize contrarian views all the time to help determine what is truthful; however, it would be a terrible mistake on my part if I made Contrarianism the core foundation of any of my beliefs.

If you're using reverse logic, you need to support your conclusions. The vast majority of the population would agree that apples grow on apple trees and cherries grow on cheery trees. The pure novelty of the opposite being true does not in any way help make it so. Unless you see farmers gluing apples onto cherry trees or picking cherries from apple trees, you have no basis to think that these two fruits do not grow on anything but the trees that share the same name.

Some people are clearly more in love with the idea of a conspiracy than they are the truth. Every time an airplane crashes to the earth there's someone who will proclaim it was caused by anything from an act of terrorism to a bizarre government plot. It's just not exciting enough to say it was a mechanical problem that led to the crash.

The idea that the pre-trib rapture is the dominant view is not correct in the first place. Most evangelicals would say they look for a pre-trib rapture, but if you include all Christians, pretribulationists would rank third behind post-trib and preterist adherents.

In Christ: Phillip

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"And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come." - 1 Thessalonians 1:10

One of the common arguments used to support a pretribulational rapture is the belief that since the Bible says God's people are not appointed unto wrath (1 Thessalonians 1:10, 5:9) then the Church will therefore not go through the great tribulation, which, they claim, is characterized by the pouring out of the wrath of God (Revelation 15:1, 16:1). If God pours His wrath out upon the world during the final years of mankind, then the Church cannot be there. This reasoning has influenced many Christians into a false hope, for the argument is based upon a complete misunderstanding of the Greek language and the nature of the wrath of God.


TWO KINDS OF WRATH

It all sounds good until a more careful examination of the Greek word for 'wrath' is accomplished. In the New Testament, there are two distinct Greek words for our English word 'wrath': orge and thumos, just like there are different Greek words for our English word 'love'. Both words for 'wrath' have a very distinct meaning, and must not be confused with each other.

-Orge is defined as judiciary wrath, or retributive wrath, being punishment for crimes as implemented by a judge.

-Thumos is defined as passionate anger that flares up but after subsides.

An example of the word thumos can be found in Galatians 5 verse 20, "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath [thumos], strife, seditions, heresies..." Paul is not speaking about justice, but passionate rage. Another example is in Acts 19:28, "And when they heard these sayings, they were full of wrath [thumos], and cried out, saying, Great is Diana of the Ephesians." Notice that the wrath here spoken is not a justifiable wrath against transgression, but the flaring up of anger that comes from passionate emotion. When someone says they have a bad temper, they are talking about this thumos wrath, not the retributive wrath of calculated justice. The word thumos is only found 18 times in the New Testament and always describes this passionate type of wrath.

Orge wrath can be clearly seen in Romans 2:5-6, "But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath [orge] against the day of wrath [orge] and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds." Here the wrath of God is portrayed as judiciary righteous judgment against the ungodly. Orge wrath is directly connected to transgressing the law of God: "Because the law worketh wrath [orge]: for where no law is, there is no transgression." (Romans 4:15) Sin deserves punishment, and that punishment is the orge wrath of God. The word orge is used 36 times in the New Testament and virtually always refers to the righteous legal judgment of God.


WHICH WRATH?

Now let us return to our immediate question. The pretribulationists claim that since God's people are not appointed unto wrath, we shall not experience the wrath of God poured out upon the world during the great tribulation as described in Revelation 15:1 and 16:1. With our new knowledge of Greek terminology, let's examine the key passages of Scripture used in their argument:

1 Thessalonians 1:10 - "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come." The word 'wrath' here is orge, the judiciary judgment of God against sin. Praise God that we are indeed saved through the Blood of Christ from the retributive wrath of God when His righteous judgments shall be revealed! "Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath [orge] through him." (Romans 5:9) Hallelujah! We are justified in His sight!

1 Thessalonians 5:9 - "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ." Again, the word used here is orge. Like in the verse above, Jesus has redeemed us from the punishment we deserved for our transgressions against the law of God! "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us." (Galatians 3:13) Through our faith in what Christ has done we shall obtain salvation from the wages of sin. As John the Baptist said, "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath [orge] of God abideth on him." (John 3:36)

Revelation 15:1 - "And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God." Proceeding from the beginning of chapter 15 to the end of chapter 16, the vials of wrath are poured out upon the earth by the seven angels of God. Since this takes place before Jesus returns and during the great tribulation, the pretribulationists assert that the Church cannot be present, for they are not appointed unto orge wrath. What they have failed to see is that the word 'wrath' used here and throughout these two chapters is not orge wrath at all, but thumos wrath, the hot anger of God being demonstrated against a wicked world PRIOR TO the revelation of Jesus Christ, when He at last comes to tread "the winepress of the fierceness and wrath [orge] of Almighty God." (Revelation 19:15) When Jesus comes He shall judge the earth for all it's wickedness, bringing with Him the righteous retributive judgment of God against His enemies. He shall separate the wheat and the tares, and cast all those who obeyed not the Gospel into the Lake of Fire which burns for ever and ever. That, my dear readers, is the true orge wrath of God, of which we are saved from, and of which we are not appointed to. The thumos wrath of God is something entirely different.


FURTHER ANALYSIS

God's wrath has been displayed all throughout history and will again be unleashed upon a wicked God-hating world in the last days; this is not surprising. But we are not to confuse God's thumos wrath with His orge wrath. When the Lord poured out the plagues upon Egypt in the days of Moses and Aaron, that was His thumos wrath; the passionate anger of the Lord expressed against that hardhearted and tyrannical nation, who oppressed His beloved people for 400 years. We must also remember that when God was pouring out the plagues upon Egypt, the children of Israel were preserved safely throughout it all. Likewise, during the great tribulation when the vials are poured out upon the earth, God's people will be protected safely throughout it all. When God closed the Red Sea over top of the pursuing Egyptian army, that was His thumos wrath bringing an end to the captivity of Israel. The Egyptians experienced God's thumos wrath when the waters toppled over them, but they experienced God's orge wrath when they lifted up their eyes in hell. In the same way, this sinful world will undergo God's thumos wrath against it during the great tribulation, and also when Jesus Christ physically destroys them at His coming, but this is nothing to be compared with the orge wrath men will experience when Jesus Christ sits upon the throne of eternal judgment. Oh Lord, God save us from that dreadful day!

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Daniel 12:10

Many will be PURIFIED, MADE SPOTLESS and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand


Daniel 12:13

"As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the END of the days you will RIZE to receive your allotted inheritance."
:-o :-o 26.\tRevelation 19:7
Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride HAS MADE HERSELF READY.
Revelation 19:6-8 (in Context) Revelation 19 (Whole Chapter)
27.\tRevelation 21:2
I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.
Revelation 21:1-3 (in Context) Revelation 21 (Whole Chapter)
28.\tRevelation 21:9
One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb."


IN REV. WE ONLY SEE THE BRIDE AT HIS COMING AND AFTERWARDS?
:-(

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the removal of the restraining power holding the anti-Christ back (THE CHURCH), and finally the anti-Christ’s official introduction.
(the Chruch, filled with the Holy Spirit
Waltern there is no way you know that Paul is saying that the church is going to be pulled out in this scripture. This is a far fetched guess at best with no proof and no scripture to back it up. YOU also said the HOLY SPIRIT WOULD LEAVE THIS IS PLAIN FALSE we see the two prophets moving in the power of the HOLY SPIRIT.


Acts 2:38-39
38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—AND FOR ALL OUR LORD GOD SHALL CALL."


If God pulls the Holy Spirit out then Peter was lying. To answer your previous question I am 38. My question to you is how old was David when God anointed him as king. Oh by the way last I checked revelation was conditional obedience or surrender not age or intellect. Time spent with God is how Daniel got his answers. :-o

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Waltern said
Zech 14:5 is just one reference to this event:
5. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

The saints meet him in the air. I think we can safely say if they meet him while he is still on his way they do come with him. 8-)

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Waltern said 1 Cor 15:20-23
20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21For since by man came death, by man came also the
resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all
-------------------------
die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order:
Christ the firstfruits; AFTERWARDS they that are
---------- ---------
Christ’s AT HIS COMING. (We, who are
--------------
resurrected "aftereward" are part of Christ's Firstfruit of the Resurrection, are part of Christ at His coming!)
YOU CHANGED THE WORDING OF THIS SCRIPTURE saying part of Christ at his coming to make it seem like we were already with Christ. That is not what it is saying it is saying we will be resurrected at his coming. Also in 1 Thess.4:15 were it says prevent it is better translated into modern language as precede.


1 Thessalonians 4:15 (New International Version)
15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not PRECEDE those who have fallen asleep.

Thessalonians 4:15 (New American Standard Bible)
15For this we say to you (A)by the word of the Lord, that (B)we who are alive and remain until (C)the coming of the Lord, will not PRECEDE (D)those who have fallen asleep.


1 Thessalonians 4:15 (The Message)
15-18And then this: We can tell you with complete confidence—we have the Master's word on it—that when the Master comes again to get us, those of us who are still alive WILL NOT GET A JUMP on the dead and leave them behind. In actual fact, they'll be ahead of us. The Master himself will give the command. Archangel thunder! God's trumpet blast! He'll come down from heaven and the dead in Christ will rise—they'll go first. Then the rest of us who are still alive at the time will be caught up with them into the clouds to meet the Master. Oh,

Thessalonians 4:15 (Amplified Bible)
15For this we declare to you by the Lord's [own] word, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord shall IN NO WAY PRECEDE [into His presence] or have ANY ADVANTAGE at all over those who have previously fallen asleep [in Him [a]in death].

1 Thessalonians 4:15 (New King James Version)
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will BY NO MEANS PRECEDE those who are asleep.


I REALY DON’T KNOW HOW I CAN BE ANY MORE CLEAR ABOUT THIS SUBJECT IT IS VERY CLEAR.

Daniel 12:13 (New International Version)
13 "As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the END of the days you will RISE to receive your allotted inheritance."


Revelation 20:4-5 (New International Version)
4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. THEY CAME TO LIFE and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the FIRST resurrection.

Matthew 25:10 (New International Version)
10"But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.

It says the bride went in when the bridegroom arrived. It does not say that he secretly swept her away before his coming. I really can not figure out why we would want to try to read something in to scriptures that are so very clear. MABEY the church is to use to its comfort and luxuries.

Revelation 18:3-4 (New International Version)

3For all the nations have drunk
the maddening wine of her adulteries.
The kings of the earth committed adultery with her,
and the merchants of the earth grew rich from her EXCESSIVE LUXURIES."
4Then I heard another voice from heaven say:
"Come out of her, MY PEOPLE,
so that you will not share in her sins,
so that you will not receive any of her plagues;

PEOPLE GET READY!!!!!!!!!!!!
;-)

C
Christinyou

Colossians 3:1-4 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with Him in glory.

Are we not already risen with Christ by His Spirit that is in us, who saved us from so great a death? Is not or present lives already being saved in our soul-minds, "Mind of Christ". Will we not also be saved in body at His comming for His Bride. Five virgins were ready in the night, waiting with candles lit.

We already are resurrected in Spirit, my death on the Cross with Christ and the Spirit of Christ in me resurrected unto life unto the Father. Satan out, Christ in. Being resurrected in Soul-mind, the the Spirit of Christ and His Mind that is in us, which we be now, renewing by the Power and Truth of the Holy Spirit concerning Jesus Christ by His Mind that is in us. I will be resurrected in Him by Him at His coming as a thief in the night, and this body will put on incorruption and in the presence of the Father our bodies will be just like His glorified body, "therefore comfort one another with these words".

2 Corinthians 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us;

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

In Christ already: Phillip

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You are right on time and I see you shine Christinyou.

Matthew 12:34
For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks.

;-)

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It says we will meet him at his coming and no where does it say that he returns to heaven. Infact it says he sets up his kingdon on Earth.

Waltern you said

In the events described above, we (all believers that are alive on the earth before the great tribulation, and all believers that are in heaven, waiting for their glorified bodies) will be raptured and receive our glorified bodies, and will meet Him in the air, and


return with Him to heaven,?????????????


till the end of the Tribulation, when we will RETURN WITH HIM TO THE EARTH, to rule and reign with Him during the 1,000 year millenium, that has been promised to the Jews.

kingdom on Earth! :-?
Matt, 24:30
At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
1 Thess. 4
The Coming of the Lord
13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise FIRST. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with
There is not two times the LORD COMES :-x

C
Christinyou

John 14:3-4 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

This is not an earthly possession, but an heavenly possession. "So shall we ever be with the Lord." Does Jesus return us to where He is?
He says so. "I will come again, and receive you unto myself; (where is He?) That where I am, there ye may be also".

Not on this earth, with He earthly reign on David's throne, but He has already come and received us unto Himself, and where He is so are we. He is in His Fathers' house, where He has prepared in the many mansions our abode and so shall we ever be with the Lord, in the Fathers House, Heavenly, not physically on this earth, but in the New Jerusalem, which is Heavenly and has come down from Heaven, and we living in our Fathers' house with our elder Brother Jesus Christ forever.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

2 Corinthians 4:14-18 Knowing that He which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you. For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God. For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day. For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

We don't look for the things of this world, which is the millennium, but the eternal weight of Glory in the Fathers' house with Christ Jesus, forever being with the Lord.

"Therefore comfort one another with these words".

In Christ already: Phillip

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi sonofthunder...

The one thing that is clear in all this discussion - is how "unclear" much of this IS in the minds and hearts of professing disciples of Christ... both here, and abroad around the globe.

Just how diverse the views and the opinions are - on this whole topic and issue (is evidenced) in the fact to all who have taken part in this thread - thus far. (And That too i might add Is another thing that is clear in all this discussion)

....

The one thing: That is clear in all this discussion is? ... i don't think any one person has ALL light, AND ALL KNOWLEDGE - and NEITHER HAVE any (yet) come into (ALL truth) on this one BIG topic - covered in the bible!

I agree!

L
Lysa


ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Hi Lisa...

Lysa wrote:
ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
I also lean toward a belief that God has promised to keep us FROM (not during, or in) that hour of trial (Revelation 3:10).

This isn't necessarily just to you, Chris! But I don't understand how you can say "keep us FROM (not during, or in) " when I couldn't find that in any of "keep's" definitions...

I wasn't emphasizing the word "keep." I was emphasizing the specific preposition "[u]from[/u]." The Lord did not say that he was going to keep us DURING or IN or even THROUGHOUT the hour of trial. He said that He would keep us [u]FROM[/u] that hour. The Greek word is "ek" (Strong's G1537) -- which means "[i]out of, from, by, away from[/i]" (according to the BLB Lexicon). [b]In fact, this word is even translated as "OUT OF" in at least 162 places in Scripture.[/b]

Hey Chris,

Again, I'm not trying to argue and I know that this is not the topic at hand... but I have a question! I also used Strong's on Rev 3.10 and it gave a reference of 5083 but it gave nothing like the translation (bolded above) you gave. Would you please clarify the 162 references to keep because when I clicked on "5083" it opened up to the following reference for keep:
_________________
5083 threw tereo tay-reh’-o

from teros (a watch, perhaps akin to 2334); TDNT-8:140,1174; v

AV-keep 57, reserve 8, observe 4, watch 2, preserve 2, keeper 1, hold fast 1; 75

1) to attend to carefully, take care of
1a) to guard
1b) metaph. to keep, one in the state in which he is
1c) to observe
1d) to reserve: to undergo something

For Synonyms see entry 5874
______________

This is in direct reference to Re 3:10 [i]Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep >5083< thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.[/i]

Are there different Strong's? I truly don't know! But if you could help me with this, I'd appreciate it brother!

God bless you Chris for listening!

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Lysa...


Lysa wrote:

Hey Chris,

Again, I'm not trying to argue and I know that this is not the topic at hand... but I have a question! I also used Strong's on Rev 3.10 and it gave a reference of 5083 but it gave nothing like the translation (bolded above) you gave. Would you please clarify the 162 references to keep because when I clicked on "5083" it opened up to the following reference for keep:
_________________
5083 threw tereo tay-reh’-o

from teros (a watch, perhaps akin to 2334); TDNT-8:140,1174; v

AV-keep 57, reserve 8, observe 4, watch 2, preserve 2, keeper 1, hold fast 1; 75

1) to attend to carefully, take care of
1a) to guard
1b) metaph. to keep, one in the state in which he is
1c) to observe
1d) to reserve: to undergo something

For Synonyms see entry 5874
______________

This is in direct reference to Re 3:10 [i]Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep >5083< thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.[/i]

Are there different Strong's? I truly don't know! But if you could help me with this, I'd appreciate it brother!

God bless you Chris for listening!

The BLB in my original post was an acronym for BLUE LETTER BIBLE. [url=http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1537&t=KJV]Here is the entry[/url] for the word "from" in [url=http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rev&c=3&v=10&t=KJV#10]Revelation 3:10[/url].

Go down to the KJV "translation count" and see how this particular word was translated in the KJV. In 181 cases, it was translated "from." In 162 cases, it was translated "out of."

I hope that this clarifies it for you.

:-)


BTW, if you read my original and subsequent posts, you will find that I was talking about the word "from."

S
sermonindex

Excerpt from Corrie Ten Boom -

"There are some among us teaching there will be no tribulation, that the Christians will be able to escape all this. These are the false teachers that Jesus was warning us to expect in the latter days. Most of them have little knowledge of what is already going on across the world. I have been in countries where the saints are already suffering terrible persecution.

In China, the Christians were told, "Don't worry, before the tribulation comes you will be translated – raptured." Then came a terrible persecution. Millions of Christians were tortured to death. Later I heard a Bishop from China say, sadly,


"We have failed.
We should have made the people strong for persecution,
rather than telling them Jesus would come first.
Tell the people how to be strong in times of persecution,
how to stand when the tribulation comes,
– to stand and not faint."

I feel I have a divine mandate to go and tell the people of this world that it is possible to be strong in the Lord Jesus Christ. We are in training for the tribulation, but more than sixty percent of the Body of Christ across the world has already entered into the tribulation. There is no way to escape it.
We are next.
Since I have already gone through prison for Jesus' sake, and since I met the Bishop in China, now every time I read a good Bible text I think, "Hey, I can use that in the time of tribulation." Then I write it down and learn it by heart.

When I was in the concentration camp, a camp where only twenty percent of the women came out alive, we tried to cheer each other up by saying, "Nothing could be any worse than today." But we would find the next day was even worse. During this time a Bible verse that I had committed to memory gave me great hope and joy.

"If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye;
for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you;
on their part evil is spoken of,
but on your part He is glorified."
(I Peter 3:14)
I found myself saying, "Hallelujah!
Because I am suffering, Jesus is glorified!"
In America, the churches sing, "Let the congregation escape tribulation", but in China and Africa the tribulation has already arrived. This last year alone more than two hundred thousand Christians were martyred in Africa. Now things like that never get into the newspapers because they cause bad political relations. But I know. I have been there. We need to think about that when we sit down in our nice houses with our nice clothes to eat our steak dinners. Many, many members of the Body of Christ are being tortured to death at this very moment, yet we continue right on as though we are all going to escape the tribulation.

Several years ago I was in Africa in a nation where a new government had come into power. The first night I was there some of the Christians were commanded to come to the police station to register. When they arrived they were arrested and that same night they were executed. The next day the same thing happened with other Christians. The third day it was the same. All the Christians in the district were being systematically murdered.

The fourth day I was to speak in a little church. The people came, but they were filled with fear and tension. All during the service they were looking at each other, their eyes asking, "Will this one I am sitting beside be the next one killed? Will I be the next one?"

The room was hot and stuffy with insects that came through the screenless windows and swirled around the naked bulbs over the bare wooden benches. I told them a story out of my childhood.

"When I was a little girl, " I said, "I went to my father and said,
"Daddy, I am afraid that I will never be strong enough to be a martyr for Jesus Christ."
"Tell me," said Father,
"When you take a train trip to Amsterdam,
when do I give you the money for the ticket?
Three weeks before?"

"No, Daddy, you give me the money for the ticket just before we get on the train."

"That is right," my father said, "and so it is with God's strength.
Our Father in Heaven knows when you will need the strength to be a martyr for Jesus Christ.
He will supply all you need – just in time…"

My African friends were nodding and smiling.
Suddenly a spirit of joy descended upon that church and the people began singing,

" In the sweet, by and by,
we shall meet on that beautiful shore."
Later that week, half the congregation of that church was executed.
I heard later that the other half was killed some months ago.
But I must tell you something. I was so happy that the Lord used me to encourage these people, for unlike many of their leaders, I had the word of God. I had been to the Bible and discovered that Jesus said He had not only overcome the world, but to all those who remained faithful to the end, He would give a crown of life.

How can we get ready for the persecution?

First we need to feed on the Word of God, digest it, make it a part of our being. This will mean disciplined Bible study each day as we not only memorize long passages of scripture, but put the principles to work in our lives.

Next we need to develop a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Not just the Jesus of yesterday, the Jesus of History,
but the life-changing Jesus of today who is still alive
and sitting at the right hand of God.

We must be filled with the Holy Spirit. This is no optional command of the Bible, it is absolutely necessary. Those earthly disciples could never have stood up under the persecution of the Jews and Romans had they not waited for Pentecost. Each of us needs our own personal Pentecost, the baptism of the Holy Spirit. We will never be able to stand in the tribulation without it.

In the coming persecution we must be ready to help each other and encourage each other.
But we must not wait until the tribulation comes before starting.
The fruit of the Spirit should be the dominant force of every Christian's life.

Many are fearful of the coming tribulation, they want to run. I, too, am a little bit afraid when I think that after all my eighty years, including the horrible Nazi concentration camp, that I might have to go through the tribulation also.
But then I read the Bible and I am glad.

When I am weak, then I shall be strong, the Bible says. Betsy and I were prisoners for the Lord, we were so weak, but we got power because the Holy Spirit was on us. That mighty inner strengthening of the Holy Spirit helped us through. No, you will not be strong in yourself when the tribulation comes. Rather, you will be strong in the power of Him who will not forsake you. For seventy-six years I have known the Lord Jesus and not once has He ever left me, or let me down."

"Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him", (Job 13:15)
for I know that to all who overcome,
He shall give the crown of life.
Hallelujah!"

L
Lysa


ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
The BLB in my original post was an acronym for BLUE LETTER BIBLE.

I hope that this clarifies it for you.
:-)

BTW, if you read my original and subsequent posts, you will find that I was talking about the word "from."


I use my Online Bible (like eSword) but....
Ok, now I understand. I see where the trouble and disagreement lies!! Thank you Jesus!

If you and the others rely on the word "from" then of course, you would think you get taken "out of" here!!! And we rely on the word "keep" then of course we would think we get to stay. So, I have one question for you...

How can we seek the truth between these two words?

Because I know these two words are in agreement somehow and that we are not seeing (or seeking) the truth of both! I sincerely don't believe God wants you to JUST LOOK at "from" nor does He want me to JUST LOOK at the word "keep;" are we agreement to this point?

I believe the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Are you willing to seek it out and possibly give up your hold on the word 'from'? I am willing as well!

God bless you Chris!!!

S
sermonindex

Same author - John - same grammatical phrase in both these verses, whether in Greek or in English.

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will[b] keep thee from[/b] the hour of [u]temptation[/u], which shall come upon all the world, [u]to try[/u] them that dwell upon the earth.

Joh 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest [b]keep them from[/b] the evil.


Other words to the Churches, which Rev 3:10 is -

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, [u]that ye may be tried[/u]; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. [Rev 20:6]

If you go onto "cross-referencing" - HE warned all of persecution and tribulation so that we'd "count the cost" to be ready for anything.


I know some people who can't even discuss persecution or loss of earthly goods, because they've never counted the cost as they do in persecuting nations.


The main point being - if Corrie et al are wrong, you've lost nothing and [i]are[/i] ready for [b]anything[/b] - No Matter The Cost - but if the "escape theory" promoters are wrong, then they'll stand before GOD with those they've influenced that don't expect to face extreme persecution nor tribulation, as Corrie said of those Chinese people.


And those who do not prepare the people for anything are leaving out massive amounts of Scripture or just don't care about the sheep.


S
sermonindex

Looking at that word "temptation(s)" in Rev 3:10 - it's used many times and of course we pray to be kept from temptation even in the LORD's prayer, but in 1Pe 4:12 the same word is used and translated as "try" -

1Pe 4:11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
1Pe 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to [b]try[/b] you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
1Pe 4:13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
1Pe 4:14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.
1Pe 4:15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.
1Pe 4:16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
1Pe 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
1Pe 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Jesus_is_God,

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Joh 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.


That is a different concept, brother.

God has desired to keep us "from" evil...always. It signifies that God wants us to be SET APART (away from) sin. We do not live in sin. In this verse, Jesus said that He would keep us FROM the situation in which the world is heading.

Jesus promised to keep us from the HOUR OF TEMPTATION which shall come upon ALL THE WORLD...to TRY THEM that dwell upon the earth. Why will this "hour" be an "hour of temptation?" Persecution and tribulation from man is historic. This hour will be different from all others because it will be [u]God[/u] who pours out the persecution and tribulation. It will come upon ALL THE WORLD. Do you see the difference?

The main point being - if Corrie et al are wrong, you've lost nothing and are ready for anything - No Matter The Cost - but if the "escape theory" promoters are wrong, then they'll stand before GOD with those they've influenced that don't expect to face extreme persecution nor tribulation, as Corrie said of those Chinese people.

That is a little harsh, brother. I have heard rapture teachers who fear something very similar of the post-trib crew. They fear that a rapture will happen, and people who believe post-trib...but miss that escape...will still assume that they are perfectly fine (since an "escape" does not exist anyway). Do you see how they can say the same thing that you do...just reversed?

Of course, we should ALWAYS be ready...rapture...tribulation...persecution...or whatever comes our way! I love Corrie ten Boom and I admire her for what she went through...but this doesn't mean she is entirely correct in this matter. Most of what I read from her is a view against a "prosperity" message (no persecution or tribulation for believers) rather than an actual interpretation about whether or not believers will be present on Earth during the WRATH OF GOD.

It is a misrepresentation (that is too often repeated) to say that those who believe in such a gathering of the Bride BEFORE God's wrath is poured out don't believe that they should face persecution or tribulation. More correctly, those of us who either believe or lean in that direction are under the impression that God will not pour His WRATH upon on. Ironically, most post-tribbers believe the same. They just assume that we will be living here as God's wrath is poured out...but it will not affect us. Rapture folks just believe that we will be gathered to Heaven during that time.

The bottom line is that you don't know the certainty of this any more than I do. We are all in the same place...and we should be very clear about how uncertain we are. I lean toward a gathering of the Bride of Christ...to be taken to the place He has been preparing for us (in Heaven)...before God pours out His wrath upon all of the earth. However, the disclaimer is that I DON'T KNOW if this is a certainty...as you do not know...so we should be prepared for ANYTHING.

Amen?

:-)

S
sermonindex

To dmoney:

Scripture teaches us that there are two separate end time events (The Rapture and the 2nd Coming). This is a detailed study, but if you are serious about understanding this, then please, get your Bible, a paper and pen, and read & study on:

Like I said previously, Paul spent 3 years, in the desert, face to face with the
Resurrected Jesus Christ, who personally discipled him and taught him of the coming “rapture”, & 7 years later, the 2nd Coming (Galations 12:1-18). Also, when Paul was stoned to death, his spirit went to Heaven (where he learned “unspeakable words” and wondrous things from Christ) (2 Cor 12:1-7)

1. It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities. 6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me. 7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.


[b]In regards to the teaching of the Rapture please note, as you look at the analysis of this prophesied event--- that Paul & Jesus Christ are the only ones who refer to this Prophecy of the Rapture, except in one verse-1 John 3:2 , where John prophesizes of this event[/b]

[b]In regards the “Return of the Saints” [2nd Coming], at the end of the Great Tribulation (another entirely different, separate event), please note that Old Testament Prophets [Zechariah, Isaiah, Joel, Amos, Malaki, Daniel, , inspired by the Holy Spirit] prophesied of this event, as well as Jesus Christ and, Paul, Jude (Jesus Christ’s 1/2 brother) Jude 1:14,15,[/b] .

[b]Rapture[/b]
Jesus coming for His Church/Bride up to Heaven, before tribulation. Luke 21:36; John 14:1-3; 1Thess 1:10, 4:14-17, 5:9; Rev 3:10
[b]Return with the Saints[/b]
Jesus coming with His Church/Bride down from Heaven, after tribulation. Zech 14:5; Col 3:4; Rev 19:7-8,14, 21:9-10; Matt 24:29-31; Jude 1:14,15; 1 Thess 3:13

[b]Rapture[/b]
Caught up with Him in the air, in the clouds, 1Thess 4:13-18;
[b]Return with the Saints[/b]
Jesus' feet touch the earth Zech 14:4; Rev 19:11-21, and he brings war, then peace.

[b]Rapture[/b]
Appears to Believers only. Mat 5:8, John 11:40, Heb 9:28
[b]Return with the Saints[/b]
Every eye will see him, including unbelievers. Rev 1:7, Zech 12:10, Mat 24:30 Luke 3:6 John 19:37

[b]Rapture[/b]
Christians taken first, unbelievers are left behind a shut door. Mat 25:1-13; Rev 3:8-10; Rev 4:1, 1Thess 4:13-18
[b]Return with the Saints[/b]
Wicked are taken first, Mat 13:28-30 the righteous (Tribulation saints) are left to populate the millennium.

[b]Rapture[/b]
Purpose: To present the Church to Himself and to the Father in Heaven, 2 Cor 11:2; Rev 19:6-9
[b]Return with the Saints[/b]
Purpose: To execute judgment on earth and set up His Kingdom on earth. Zech 14:3-4; Jud 1:14-15; Rev 19:11-21

[b]Rapture[/b]
Purpose: to cast satan out of heaven (Rev 12) down to the earth, which will reveal Satan for the Tribulation as the man of sin 2Thess 2
[b]Return with the Saints[/b]
Purpose: to cast Satan to the bottomless pit, to bind Satan after the Tribulation. Rev 20:1-7

[b]Rapture[/b]
Happens in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, no war, globally. 1Cor 15:52
[b]Return with the Saints[/b]
Slow coming, at war, to specific locations, from Edom, to Bozrah, to Meggido or Armageddon, to Jerusalem. Isa 63:1-3, Rev 16:16, Zech 12:9-10

[b]Rapture[/b]
Christians are changed, and get spirit bodies, go to heaven and do not marry, and become immortal; Mat 22:30; 1Cor 15:52; 1John 3:2
[b]Return with the Saints[/b]
People populate the earth during the millinnium, some people still die, not being changed to immortality as at the rapture. Isa 65:20

[b]Rapture[/b]
Jesus descends with a shout (for resurrection) and trumpet noise. 1Thess 4:16
[b]Return with the Saints[/b]
No shout mentioned Rev 19:11-21

[b]Rapture[/b]
A resurrection takes place of all saints to immortality, to rule as kings and priests in Heaven over Earth 1Cor 15:51-54; 1Thess 4:13-18
[b]Return with the Saints[/b]
Resurrection of the tribulation saints to immortality who worship day and night in the temple of God. Rev 7:15, Rev 20:4-6,

[b]Rapture[/b]
Occurs as a thief in the night, at the 'no man knows the day or hour' festival of the Feast of Trumpets. Mat 24:43; 1Thess 5:4-6; Rev 3:3
[b]Return with the Saints[/b]
Occurs at end of 7 years of Tribulation; exact day predicted; 3.5 years or 1260 days after the abomination of desolation: Dan 9:24-27, 12:11-12; Rev 11:2, 12:6,14, 13:5

[b]Rapture[/b]
Is likened to the abduction of the bride during the Jewish Wedding, and the union of the bride and groom, which occurs at the start of the 7 day bridal week. Gen 29:22-28, Judges 14:1-18
[b]Return with the Saints[/b]
Is likened to the marriage feast, which occurs after the 7 day bridal week, returning from the wedding. Luke 12:36; Rev 19

[b]Rapture[/b]
The dead in Christ rise and together with then living will be changed into their new bodies and leave Earth with Jesus. 1Thess 4:14-16
[b]Return with the Saints[/b]
Christians return with Jesus in already resurrected bodies riding on white horses. Rev 19:11-21

[b]Rapture[/b]
Jesus returns as a savior from wrath Luke 21:36; Rom 5:9; 1Thess 1:10, 5:9; Rev 3:10
[b]Return with the Saints[/b]
Jesus returns on a white horse, full of wrath. Rev 19:11

[b]Rapture[/b]
For the Church only (those in Christ) 1Thess 4:14-17
[b]Return with the Saints[/b]
For redeemed Israel & Gentiles Mat 25:31-46; Rom 11:25-27

[b]Rapture[/b]
A message of hope and comfort 1Thess 4:18; Titus 2:13; 1John 3:3
[b]Return with the Saints[/b]
A message of judgment and woe Joel 3:12-16; Amos 5:18; Mal 4:5; Rev 19:11-21

[b]Rapture[/b]
Like the days of Noah and Lot, which show deliverance and salvation from judgement.
2 Peter 2:7-9, Mat 24:37-44
[b]Return with the Saints[/b]
Like the plagues of Egypt, many of which are mirrored in Revelation, pouring out his Wrath, and He comes after the judgements.

I pray that this clarifies this for you, dmoney.

Sincerely,

Walter


dmoney wrote:
It says we will meet him at his coming and no where does it say that he returns to heaven. Infact it says he sets up his kingdon on Earth.

Waltern you said

In the events described above, we (all believers that are alive on the earth before the great tribulation, and all believers that are in heaven, waiting for their glorified bodies) will be raptured and receive our glorified bodies, and will meet Him in the air, and


return with Him to heaven,?????????????


till the end of the Tribulation, when we will RETURN WITH HIM TO THE EARTH, to rule and reign with Him during the 1,000 year millenium, that has been promised to the Jews.

kingdom on Earth! :-?
Matt, 24:30
At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
1 Thess. 4
The Coming of the Lord
13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise FIRST. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with
There is not two times the LORD COMES :-x

S
sermonindex

Hi Chris you said

This hour will be different from all others because it will be God who pours out the persecution and tribulation. It will come upon ALL THE WORLD. Do you see the difference?

I beleave the devil persecutes the saints and it also says that GOD DOES NOT PORE HIS WRATH ON THE BELEAVERS THAT HAVE GOD'S SEAL.


It really amazes me how we could pick one passage about one of the 7 churches and say that God is going to pull all Christians out. How do you know if you are a part of the Church in Philadelphia?
WHY couldn’t God keep this church from this hour by providing a hiding place like the woman in Rev.or supper natural threw angels?


NOTIS THE TITLE
Daniel 12 (New International Version)
Daniel 12
THE END TIMES

1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who PROTECTS GOD'S people, will arise. There will be a TIME OF DISTREST such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who SLEEP IN THE DUST of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are WISE [a] will SHINE like the brightness of the heavens, and THOSE WHO LEAD MANY to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. 4 But you, Daniel, close up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge."

The deliverance he is talking about is the last judgment AND DELIVERANCE FROM DEATH LIKE Paul tells us. This judgment is like Noah and Sodom. The others before are designed to get people to repent and come to God just like God did with Egypt. God’s people did go threw it but they were protected. It also tells us that the saints will be protected from these judgments in Rev.9:4 Also the resurrection of the dead happens at the same time Jesus comes back to destroy the antichrist according to Rev.19:17-21 and we see the judgment there called the great supper of God.

Revelation 9:4 (New International Version)
4They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people WHO DID NOT HAVE THE SEAL OF GOD on their foreheads.

Revelation 19:17-21 (New International Version)
17And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, "Come, gather together for the great
SUPPER OF GOD, 18so that you may eat the flesh
-------------
of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses
and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great."
19Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21THE REST OF THEM WERE KILLED WITH THE SORD THAT CAME OUT OF THE MOUTH OF THE RIDER on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

DANIEL 12

9 He replied, "Go your way, Daniel, because the words are closed up and sealed until the time of the end. 10 MANY WILL BE PURIFIDE, made spotless
-------------------------------------
and REFINED, but the wicked will continue to be
-------------
wicked. None of the wicked will UNDERSTAND, but those who are WISE WILL UNDERSTAND.
11 "From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12 BLESSED IS THE ONE who waits for and REACHES THE END


The persecution of the saints is not God’s judgment but it is definitely the trying or refining of the saints. .

James 1:2-4 (New International Version)
Trials and Temptations
2Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face TRIALS of many kinds, 3because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. 4Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be MATURE and COMPLETE, not lacking anything.


James says that the testing of our faith brings about mature fruit THAT JESUS APPOINTED US TO BEAR.

John 15:16 (New International Version)
16You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name

WHY DEFEND SOMETHING YOU ARE UNSHORE OF?

IF PEOPLE TAUGHT THIS LIKE YOU SAY WE WOULD BE ALRIGHT.” WE COULD VERY WELL GO THREW THE TRIB. PERIOD”
THERE FOR WE NEED TO BE PREPARED TO PERSEVER THREW THIS KIND OF PERCICUTION. THEN WE WOULD TEACH GOD’S PEOPLE TO BE PREPARED BUT THIS IS SIMPLY NOT BEING DONE .THUS LEAVING US WITH A CHURCH THAT IS UNPREPARED TO GO THREW THIS KIND OF PERSICUTION. IF THIS IS TRUE THEN WE HAVE BEEN BAD STEWARDS OF WHAT GOD HAS INTRUSTED US WITH. THE GIFTS WERE GIVEN TO US TO PREPARE THE SAINTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:-)

S
sermonindex

Waltern the first scripture is wrong Galations 12:1-18 please edit so I can READ IT.


I BELEAVE THAT THE SOLES OF THE SAINTS THAT HAVE DIED IN THE LORD WILL COME WITH HIM AND WILL RECEAVE THERE NEW BODY FIRST AND THEN WE WHO ARE STILL HERE AT HIS COMING.WE WILL BE CLOTHED IMPERISHABLEAND THEN BE CAUGHT UP WITH HIM IN THE AIR.


1 COR. 15:50-52

50I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMPET. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.


Thessalonians 4:13-18 (New International Version)
The Coming of the Lord
13Brothers, WE DO NOT WANT YOU TO BE IGNORANT about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that GOD WILL BRING WITH JESUS THOSE WHO HAVE FALLEN ASLEEP IN HIM. 15ACCORDING TO THE LORD’S OWN WORD, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left TILL THE COMING OF THE LORD, WILL CERTENLY NOT PRECEDE THOSE WHO HAVE FALLEN ASLEEP IN THE LORD. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words.

:-)

S
sermonindex

This seems rather clear, even without all the cross-references from the Old & New Testament.


[b][u]HOW MANY TIMES IS JESUS 'COMING'[/u] -

#1 “In His & the Father’s Glory”?

#2 “In the clouds”?

#3 “With the Angels"?

#4 “As a ‘Thief”? [/b]


[b] Coming in “Glory”? [/b]

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Luke 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

2Thess. 1:9 who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

2Thess. 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ

Rev. 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.


[b] “Coming in the Clouds”?[/b]


Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Acts 1:10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

1Thess. 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.


[b] “Coming with His Angels“?[/b]

Matthew 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; [b]the harvest is the end of the world[/b]; and the reapers are the angels.

Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

Matthew 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.

Matthew 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Matt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Luke 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

1Thess. 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

2Thessalonians 1:7-10 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.


[b]Coming as a Thief? [/b]

1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.


~ Verses mentioning, “till the End”.

Mat. 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; [b]the harvest is the end of the world[/b]; and the reapers are the angels.

Mat. 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; [b]so shall it be in the end of this world.[/b]

Mat. 13:49 [b]So shall it be at the end of the world[/b]: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

Mat. 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mat. 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Mat. 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo,[b] I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.[/b]

Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Luke 21:9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should [b]raise it up again at the last day. [/b]

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and [b]I will raise him up at the last day.[/b]

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and [b]I will raise him up at the last day.[/b]

John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and [b]I will raise him up at the last day.[/b]


I think Scriptures are clear and in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 Jesus said that He "told us all things" and Paul said so as well - and the cross-references are through-out the O.T. & N.T. and fit together like a neat puzzle. No contradictions. I do believe that He intended us to know - just as the Jews in His days on earth knew from the Scriptures that they had, of when the LORD would raise His dead. They knew it was only "one" day, at the last day, at the end of the world, when Messiah literally Comes to earth.

L
Lysa

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
The main point being - if Corrie et al are wrong, you've lost nothing and are ready for anything - No Matter The Cost - but if the "escape theory" promoters are wrong, then they'll stand before GOD with those they've influenced that don't expect to face extreme persecution nor tribulation, as Corrie said of those Chinese people.

That is a little harsh, brother. .....

I love Corrie ten Boom and I admire her for what she went through...but this doesn't mean she is entirely correct in this matter.


I'd say what she says has a LOT (a ton) of more weight than you or I!

What Corrie said about the Chinese church was real! They said they regretted that they had NOT prepared their people to face tribulation and that they had told them Jesus would return before the tribulation.

We can argue (hindsighted, of course) they didn't go through or experience "the wrath of God" but the fact is... it's of no consequence because the truth is ... they were tortured, they suffered and died. But my point is that by THEIR own words they were NOT prepared to suffer and many fell by the way side because they were not ready.

[b]THAT[/b] is all she was saying. She was not the one harping continually about escaping the wrath of God, she was instead trying to get people to see that Christians will indeed face tribulation in this and the coming centuries.

She didn't want to be "admired" for what she went through, she was trying to explain that christians will suffer and die today, however tragically, for the gospel of Christ... so quit lying to them escape-ism and prepare them!!

To me, this was her point. It's hard to get tone across the waves of discussion boards but I am not angry nor did I type this in anger. I hope it did not come through that way.

God bless

[edited for clarity]

S
sermonindex


To Lysa:

I notice that you never respond with Scripture to support your position. Why is that?

[b]This is a non issue. Christ told us we would face "tribulation". At the same time he told the Phaisees & Saducees, who did not beleive in Him, that THEY would suffer the "wrath to come"
(Matthew 3:7) & (Luke 3:7)[/b]

7. But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?we are told that

[b]At the same time, the Believer in Jesus Christ is told that he has already (past tense) avoided, that he has already escaped, the wrath to come.[/b]

1 Thes 1:10
10. And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus,[b] which delivered us from the wrath to come.[/b]

The Greek word for wrath is orge and it's meaning is:

Strong's Number: 3709
Transliterated: orge
Phonetic: or-gay'

Text: from 3713; properly, desire (as a reaching forth or excitement of the mind), i.e. (by analogy,)[b] violent passion (ire, or [justifiable] abhorrence); by implication punishment: --anger, indignation, vengeance, wrath. [/b]

Noah Websters 1828 Dictionary provides this defintion:
WRATH, n. [L.]
1. Violent anger; vehement exasperation; indignation; as the wrath of Achilles.
When the wrath of king Ahasuerus was appeased--Esther 2.

O Lord--in wrath remember mercy. Habakkuk 3.
2. The effects of anger. Proverbs 27.
3. The just punishment of an offense or crime.
[b] Romans 8.
\tGods wrath, in Scripture, is his holy and just indignation against sin. Romans 1.[/b]

God will pour out His wrath on a God hating, God rejecting world. The World has rejected Him (exactly like the Pharasees & Saducees had), and now, He will judge them with his just indignation against their sin. The sin of rejecting their creator, and rejecting the Creators plan of salvation that He prepared for them BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN.

The Church will not go through the great tribluation. Why, do you ask? Because the Holy Spirit lives within each of us, If anyone thinks that the tribulation that we face now, no matter how bad that may be (ie the torture of Tinbom and others), murder, beheading, burning at the stake, etc etc etc can be comapead to the Wrath of God has no understanding of the definition of the word "WRATH".

What we all will continue to experience is tribulation, as we take up His cross and go into foreign lands and loose our life because of Gospel of Jesus Christ.

What is the Greek Word for "Tribulation"? It is thlipsis
Strong's Number: 2347
Transliterated: thlipsis
Phonetic: thlip'-sis

Text: from 2346; pressure (literally or figuratively): --afflicted(-tion), anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble.


Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionary is helpful:
TRIBULA'TION, n. [L. tribulo, to thrash, to beat.] Severe affliction; distresses of life; vexations. In Scripture, it often denotes the troubles and distresses which proceed from persecution.
When tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, he is offended. Matt.13.
In the world ye shall have tribulation. John 16.


[b][color=990000]Also, I challenge you to study my previous post on the two end time events prophesied in Scripture--1) The Rapture; 2) The 2nd Coming, and then respond with Scripture in support of your OPINION that they are one and the same event. Opinions are worthless to the son and daughter of God unless they are supported by HIS WORD.[/b][/color]

[b]My Bible tells me that the Christian believer has already (past tense) been delivered from the wrath to come.[/b]

When you respond to my post, PLEASE DO SO WITH SCRIPTURE.

Sincerly,

Walter


Lysa wrote:
ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
The main point being - if Corrie et al are wrong, you've lost nothing and are ready for anything - No Matter The Cost - but if the "escape theory" promoters are wrong, then they'll stand before GOD with those they've influenced that don't expect to face extreme persecution nor tribulation, as Corrie said of those Chinese people.

That is a little harsh, brother. .....

I love Corrie ten Boom and I admire her for what she went through...but this doesn't mean she is entirely correct in this matter.


I'd say what she says has a LOT (a ton) of more weight than you or I!

What Corrie said about the Chinese church was real! They said they regretted that they had NOT prepared their people to face tribulation and that they had told them Jesus would return before the tribulation.

We can argue (hindsighted, of course) they didn't go through or experience "the wrath of God" but the fact is... it's of no consequence because the truth is ... they were tortured, they suffered and died. But my point is that by THEIR own words they were NOT prepared to suffer and many fell by the way side because they were not ready.

[b]THAT[/b] is all she was saying. She was not the one harping continually about escaping the wrath of God, she was instead trying to get people to see that Christians will indeed face tribulation in this and the coming centuries.

She didn't want to be "admired" for what she went through, she was trying to explain that christians will suffer and die today, however tragically, for the gospel of Christ... so quit lying to them escape-ism and prepare them!!

To me, this was her point. It's hard to get tone across the waves of discussion boards but I am not angry nor did I type this in anger. I hope it did not come through that way.

God bless

[edited for clarity]


L
Lysa

waltern wrote:
To Lysa:

I notice that you never respond with Scripture to support your position. Why is that?

Never, Waltern? Really? Never does in fact mean "never," so not even "one, not even a little one??? :-D

My last post was about Corrie Ten Boom and a comment about her. Did something about it aggravate you?

But seriously, was a Scripture really necessary with my comment about Corrie? Posting a Scripture with each post, is that a sermonindex law or a waltern law? Because I did not read when I signed up for Sermonindex that each time we posted it was necessary to include a scripture with EACH and EVERY one.

You are right on one aspect... it is a non-issue and I'm not even defending myself against your false accusation. Your the accuser, it's your job to search my name and look up EVERY post I've submitted to make sure I've NEVER posted scripture reference. If you got the time to look them all up, have at it brother!!

I sincerely say this, God bless you Waltern.

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi dmoney…


WHY DEFEND SOMETHING YOU ARE UNSHORE OF?

I guess that I could ask the same thing of those who ATTACK something that they are unsure of? Of course, the bottom line for me is a lack of clarity about this uncertainty. People on both sides of this (or [i]several[/i], to be more accurate) are not entirely certain…but often present their view as if it were a certainty. Of course, this is a reflection of much doctrinal discussion in Christianity. Far too often, I think that we present things as if we aren’t looking through “a glass, darkly.” We act as though we “understand all mysteries” and “have all knowledge” – but is disputed by others who feel that they also “understand all mysteries” and “have all knowledge.”

When I was in high school, I heard two very “spiritual” guys arguing over a very controversial doctrinal view (which is often argued in these forms too). Both sides had the audacity to claim that GOD SHOWED THEM the “truth.” Unfortunately, neither guy agreed with one another. They drew quite a few brothers into their dispute. When they tried to draw me into it, I just admitted that I just did not know the certainty of either side. I leaned toward something…but I didn’t try to argue using the verses that were being interpreted one way or another. Instead of causing “peace,” my answer actually caused BOTH SIDES to get upset with me.

If someone were to ask me which side I am on in this case, I would say “neither.” I might lean in one direction (toward a gathering of the Bride before the time of God’s wrath), but that doesn’t equate to an absolute embrace of such a thing. I hope that I make this clear. I just believe that there is not enough passages that are absolute in the indication about how the end will come about…and I still believe that we shouldn’t concern ourselves with it that much with to begin with (Acts 1:6-8).


IF PEOPLE TAUGHT THIS LIKE YOU SAY WE WOULD BE ALRIGHT.” WE COULD VERY WELL GO THREW THE TRIB. PERIOD”
THERE FOR WE NEED TO BE PREPARED TO PERSEVER THREW THIS KIND OF PERCICUTION. THEN WE WOULD TEACH GOD’S PEOPLE TO BE PREPARED BUT THIS IS SIMPLY NOT BEING DONE .THUS LEAVING US WITH A CHURCH THAT IS UNPREPARED TO GO THREW THIS KIND OF PERSICUTION. IF THIS IS TRUE THEN WE HAVE BEEN BAD STEWARDS OF WHAT GOD HAS INTRUSTED US WITH. THE GIFTS WERE GIVEN TO US TO PREPARE THE SAINTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But shouldn’t we be prepared anyway? Does our preparation have to depend upon an expectation of living during the “hour” of God’s wrath -- or preparation for a “gathering” that might never take place? I believe that our preparation should exist no matter [u]how[/u] we think the end comes about! In fact, I think that there is something very seriously wrong if someone is NOT “prepared.”

As far as the “gifts” – they aren’t simply given to prepare the saints for the hour of trial. Why? Because they have existed since the day the Church began (in Acts chapter 2). It is not the gifts that prepare us to face and endure persecution and tribulation: It is our love for Him.

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Lysa,

You’re right…that is ALL that Corrie ten Boom seems to be saying. I agree with everything that she says about being prepared for tribulation…and persecution…and trials…and hardships. The Bride of Christ has historically endured all sorts of unfathomable torture and terror. In fact, there are believers in China…North Korea…Iran…etc… who are facing unbelievable persecution. The early Church endured terror that is unthinkable. This is a great example of how we should ALWAYS be – willing to be tortured and die for our Lord.

There is a difference, however, in the time at the end. That time will be worse than all others…but only because the persecution will be handed down by God Himself! God’s wrath will be poured about upon all the earth. Even many post-trib believe that they will “escape” that wrath…while still living here on the earth.

I can’t make this clear enough: Most people who believe in a “gathering of the Bride” (often called the “rapture”) that would take place before the hour of God’s wrath realize that they must endure persecution and tribulations of men and the devil. This is an embrace of the “preparation” idea espoused by people like Sister Corrie. We can look forward to the persecution and tribulation of mankind – because it is a light and momentary affliction. Even if we are tortured for 70 years – it is merely a drop in the bucket compared with the vastness of eternity. The difference, however, is that those who believe in a “gathering” simply feel that we will not be present at the time that God will pour out HIS wrath upon the entire world.


so quit lying to them escape-ism and prepare them!!!!

I wouldn’t call it a lie, sister. Like I told dmoney, there is something very wrong if our “preparation” is hinged mostly upon a belief that believers will be forced to endure through the wrath of God. In fact, I don’t know if that is true preparation at all. We should be prepared to endure ANYTHING (including all manners of persecution and tribulation). Besides, what sort of preparation are you speaking of? Isn’t our great love for God and knowledge of what is clear in His Word suffice to help us endure any and all trials?

S
sermonindex

If we would look further than the few N.T. verses that we post repeatedly - we'd see plainly what the Jews Knew --- that HIS Wrath Comes "WITH" HIM. "At" His Coming.

That would be according to His Word - after the Last Trump - 'with' the Vials.

One would need to "cross-reference" ALL N.T. last days Scriptures regarding this in order to speak to this issue of "wrath" vs "tribulation".

Martha knew - Daniel knew - the Major Prophets of the O.T. knew ... "at the Last Day."


These would be a massive amount of Scripture and not the few favorite verses from the N.T..

Also - Thank you Lysa for seeing Corrie's point.
Thank you.


P.S. "Tribulation" means to "try" - "Wrath" is the endgame - the Grand Finale.

Edit to add - One can still "repent" during tribulation but wrath is a done deal - it's when GOD has finished with men.

Rev 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore [u]upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image. [/u]

S
sermonindex


[b]REV:6..,VSS.14 ON..THEN THE SKY RECEDED AS A SCROLL, WHEN IT IS ROLLED UP, AND EVERY MOUNTAIN AND ISLAND WAS MOVED OUT OF IT'S PLACE...[15]..AND THE KINGS OF THE EARTH, THE GREAT MEN, THE RICH MEN, THE COMMANDERS, THE MIGHTY MEN, EVERY SLAVE AND EVERY FREEMAN, HID THEMSELVES IN THE CAVES, AND THE ROCKS OF THE MOUNTAINS..[16]...AND SAID TO THE MOUNTAINS AND THE ROCKS......"FALL ON US,AND HIDE US FROM THE FACE OF HIM WHO SITS ON THE THRONE!..AND FROM THE WRATH OF THE LAMB!"...."FOR THE GREAT DAY OF HIS WRATH HAS COME!...AND WHO IS ABLE TO STAND??!"[/b]


There is a day, the "day of the Lord", which is dedicated to wrath, and it is clear in scripture that this is the very one and the same day of the Rapture...the Parousia...the gathering of the Saints unto Jesus. This is the day that is the culmination of the "Harvest"...the "bundling", of the "wheat"..into the Heavens...and the "tares", to be burned.


There will be a period of time when the Lord Himself wars against the wicked, the anti-Christ, and his armies, called, "the Day of His wrath." We will be with the Lord on this day, but there will be a time of trouble that precedes that day. This time before is "the "hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to TEST those who dwell upon the Earth....[...Rev:3 vs,10 .


The test is; do you love Jesus more than anything, even more than your own life? The anti-Christ and this trial will prove our faith and allegiance.


I have said this before, and I'll say it again. Zac Poonen has an EXCELLENT series here on Sermon Index...that one can glean from. It is a expository...[verse by verse, chapter by chapter..].teaching on the entire book of revelation, that in my view, is balanced and fair.


Yes, cling to the Word, and sola scriptura...[SCRIPTURES ONLY!}...but beware of DOGMA!....It is the closing of the mind and faith concerning any other interpretation other than your own, or your denomination...and as has been spoken, let us be prepared. The foolish virgins were not. Faith alone will give us strength to endure unto the end, and it is real, and fast approaching. Jesus gave authority to the anti-Christ, not the Devil...for His purposes and for His glory.


PS: It is a good thing to be Berean...to search the Scriptures for yourself, so I like these posts. It is important to believe, and to be prepared unto holiness.

S
sermonindex

Amen Brother Tom. I could feel the concerned love from your heart in that.


About the verse Rev 6:16 & 17 - these are the men of the earth speaking and not GOD.

GOD doesn't say "wrath" until Rev 11:18 , Rev 14:8 , Rev 14:10 , Rev 14:19 , Rev 15:1 , Rev 15:7 , Rev 16:1 , Rev 16:19 , Rev 19:15 - which are all after the Seventh Trump.

The 'only' reason I bring this up is because some mid-trib folks have "two" resurrections - one before His Coming and those verses in Rev 6 is the one they use - not realizing that is men's fear and not GOD speaking of 'His' Timing.

There's only one "rapture" as it's called before the Millenial Reign, as you know... but others don't see it in Scripture yet. Matt 13:24-50 shows the same understanding that was held through-out the whole of the O.T. about the Day of His Appearing, being both a day of "Final Judgment and His Rewarding of the Saints" Rev 14:14-20 , Mat 3:12 - and His Reward is "with" Him. Rev 11:18, Rev 22:12, Isa 3:10-11, Isa 40:10, Isa 62:11 .

Thank you Brother!

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

It might be helpful, in discussions like this, that people actually profess the fact that they don't know the complete certainty of this matter.

If this is any measure of doubt...it is still doubt.

There is a strong argument for both sides. After much prayer and study, I personally lean toward a belief that the Bride of Christ may be gathered BEFORE the HOUR of trial that will come upon the earth (when God pours out his wrath in the form of bowls, trumpets, etc...).

It would be very, very helpful if people could discuss this matter (and other doctrines like this) by making it clear that we might not be totally certain about such things.

S
sermonindex

I can't be limited that way Brother. Many many Saints that are now in Heaven and now walk this earth are convinced of what they believe - many from the pre-trib camp who make movies and boardgames out of their belief.

Many who believe the way they do feel 'convinced' after 30 yr.s or more of study of their view and I happen to be one of those.
I'd have to 'lie' now to say - "I'm not certain" - that would be a lie for me.
I haven't taken this study lightly, but it was my Main burden since I got saved. Not only through cross-referencing but the Greek and it's grammar, etc - so I can't say I'm not convinced - but I can say - study and then choose to agree or disagree but don't tell folks like Zac Poonen or others that they can't say they're convinced.

[b]We can present our Scriptures and leave it at that. Let the Scriptures Speak For Themselves. Allowing Scripture to interpret Scripture and less of our own words - that is 'fair'.[/b]

I can't lie and that is what you're asking some of us to do.

With all respect & from my heart.

S
sermonindex

I need to reply with another thought on this that just hit me - about "admitting we're not convinced".

I am convinced that GOD has given us freewill.

That the Gospel offer of Salvation is open to "Whomsoever will" and that "The Elect" are those whom GOD "foreknew" would follow Him faithfully unto the end.

That one can shipwreck their faith.

I don't believe in infant Baptism.

I do believe in the Pre-Millenial Coming of Christ.


Yet, I wouldn't leave the PCA Church that I'm a member of for anyone. PCA believe the complete opposite of all I said I believe just now. We love each other very very much - as the Body of Christ does - despite it all and never argue. :-o

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Jesus_is_God...


I can't be limited that way Brother.

??? It is not a "limit" to simply tell the truth. That is, unless you are prepared to claim that you know beyond any doubt whatsoever it is that you think you know the certainty of this matter.

I am convinced, dear brother, that you are in the same place that I am -- just leaning in a different direction. There is no shame in this...and in fact, it is a noble thing to do. I wonder just how many divisive doctrinal disputes might be solved if people would just confess that they aren't 100% completely sure about an issue that isn't entirely spelled out by the Word of God.

There are things that are exceedingly clear in God's Word. However, the exact timing and manner of the Lord's return is not one of them (and hence, the debate continues).


Many many Saints that are now in Heaven and now walk this earth are convinced of what they believe - many from the pre-trib camp who make movies and boardgames out of their belief.

Perhaps this is the problem? Perhaps we should not be so easily convinced of a matter -- especially if there is some room for error. How many believers have you met that will split fellowship with someone over a matter as trivial as whether or not Jesus will gather His Bride before the wrath of God...peculiarities in obligated standards of holiness...or even whether or not Adam had a belly button.

Can't we agree on the need to be PREPARED without having to teach something that is a "truth" that is most likely an opinion or persuasion?


Many who believe the way they do feel 'convinced' after 30 yr.s or more of study of their view and I happen to be one of those.
I'd have to 'lie' now to say - "I'm not certain" - that would be a lie for me.

So you ARE convinced? You have NO doubt whatsoever? Maybe this is the problem, brother -- not just with you -- but with everyone who studies and places so much weight upon the results of their own study. We become so convinced of our own study (or what "God has shown me") that we become impatient or obstinate with the views of others (who often claim the exact same measure of study or prayer).

[b]We can present our Scriptures and leave it at that. Let the Scriptures Speak For Themselves. Allowing Scripture to interpret Scripture and less of our own words - that is 'fair'.[/b]
I agree. We can...but this doesn't happen very often. Every Sunday, believers will attend meetings where a pastor will open with a verse and then expound upon what it means. This has become the "norm" for much of Christianity. How many believers do we know who are persuaded -- not by a passage alone -- but by someone else's commentary? Yet if we view all men as flawed human beings, then we place God at the highest place!

Too often, our "teachers" do more "interpreting" toward a doctrinal end than actually teaching what the Word of God actually says. I am always happy to find a preacher who will allow true believers to make up their own mind about what the Scriptures say...instead of trying to spoon feed doctrine to the congregation while pretending to hold a monopoly on truth. In fact, most denominations are literally congregants who gather according to very fine doctrinal peculiarities.

Now, there are things that are undeniable. Hebrews chapter 6 talks about such matters that are beyond dispute. We need to realize our spiritual depravity outside of Christ. We must repent from dead works. We must place of faith, hope and trust in Jesus Christ -- the Son of God. Salvation is ONLY found in Christ (and not through good works). Hell is the eternal end that awaits those who die in their sins and do not know God. That said, there are many doctrinal matters that aren't entirely clear in Scripture. We can study, discuss and pray about such matters. However, there will be dispute because the Scriptures do not always specify certain things.

When I met Leonard Ravenhill in his home while I a young teen (just before he died), he told me that one of the greatest problems in the Church is that people believe too easily. They become swayed by "winds of doctrine" that they call "truth" simply because they think something to be true. He told me that the Church (in a modern context) is in the condition that it is because the Church has continuously operated and taught as it does. He said that God wants people who will test everything (everything that they have ever heard, everything that they have ever read and everything that they have ever believed). He said that this includes the preachers/doctrines we like and don't like...because only God is good...and only He holds the truth. This impacted me greatly.

I need to reply with another thought on this that just hit me - about "admitting we're not convinced".

I am convinced that GOD has given us freewill.

That the Gospel offer of Salvation is open to "Whomsoever will" and that "The Elect" are those whom GOD "foreknew" would follow Him faithfully unto the end.

That one can shipwreck their faith.

I don't believe in infant Baptism.

I do believe in the Pre-Millenial Coming of Christ.

Yet, I wouldn't leave the PCA Church that I'm a member of for anyone. PCA believe the complete opposite of all I said I believe just now. We love each other very very much - as the Body of Christ does - despite it all and never argue.

Like I said, there are things that we can be convinced of. However, I truly believe that there are things that we should not be convinced of. Whether or not Jesus gathers His Bride before the wrath of God is poured out upon the Earth would not change my love for Him. Whether or not people are "once saved/always saved" would not change my love for Jesus! Nothing can change my love for God!!!

In addition, I don't attend a local church simply because I agree with the doctrinal views of the pastor, the elderes or the denomination. I don't attend to be taught which doctrines I believe...or even to fellowship with people who believe exactly the same way that I do. I attend the fellowship for the opportunity of ENCOURAGEMENT that it offers (Hebrews 10:24-25).

I think that it is a wise thing to offer a disclaimer regarding our views about such issues. We could add such a disclaimer regarding our own limited understanding which would be far more "truthful" than claiming our words are truth.

S
sermonindex

I personally lean toward a belief that the Bride of Christ may be gathered BEFORE the HOUR of trial that will come upon the earth (when God pours out his wrath in the form of bowls, trumpets, etc...).

Are you saying this thread must end?

I sincerely am not getting your point and believe me - I wouldn't lie to you neither - I truly do not.

Every thread on this Scriptural Discussion forum is one belief or another that a person believes.

You have stated your belief in this quote - I have stated mine and the others on this thread have shared theirs. No one called anyone any names - Thankfully - and I see it just moving along with everyone doing exactly as they would on any other topic on this "Scriptures and Doctrine" section of this forum.

Is it only eschatology that you feel this way about?

This is where I am confused with your posts to this thread.

Are we to not discuss what we believe only on this one topic - eschatology - on this "Scriptures & Doctrine" section?

Asking sincerely.

I don't believe you've caught what I was saying about me being a pentecostal-freewiller-preMil etc believer who is more than at home in a Reformed theology church. I believe if you had, you see that I'm not as hard nosed as you may think.

I was just under the impression that we can say about Any doctrine of the Church, "I believe __________ and these are the verses that have convinced me of _____________ ."

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Brother Jesus_is_God,

Are you saying this thread must end?
No, not at all! I just think that these sort of discussions in particular (with several others on SermonIndex) often deviate from just what our opinions are regarding Scripture...to what we KNOW the truth is (from Scripture and prayer, no less) regarding the issue as a whole. I just think that we should be more clear and patient with our own opinions...and call them just that (opinions/persuasions/etc)...which might help with the perception within the discussion. Of course, this is true with every thread that deals with controversial issues.
I sincerely am not getting your point and believe me - I wouldn't lie to you neither - I truly do not.

Every thread on this Scriptural Discussion forum is one belief or another that a person believes.

You have stated your belief in this quote - I have stated mine and the others on this thread have shared theirs. No one called anyone any names - Thankfully - and I see it just moving along with everyone doing exactly as they would on any other topic on this "Scriptures and Doctrine" section of this forum.

Is it only eschatology that you feel this way about?

This is where I am confused with your posts to this thread.

Let me try to clarify: I believe that there should be a clear distinction when we are presenting our persuasions about ANY issue that isn't clear from the Word of God.

I suppose that my trouble is that there have been quite "pretrib" believers who feel that they are looked down upon by those who hold to a "post-trib" belief. It is almost voiced as an accusation of "easy believism" -- or that such believers want to close their ears to the idea of facing persecution or tribulation (which couldn't be further from accurate). I know that I have felt it -- and I don't rest my faith entirely in EITHER side.

Now, I am sure that the opposite if also true. In fact, this is true of many controversial doctrinal issues. Pre-trib/post-trib. Calvinism/Arminism. Tongues/no tongues. Rock music/no rock music. KJV only/"modern" versions. This list could go on and on. That is why I think that it is important to make a clear distinction about what is FACT from what is merely an OPINION (or persuasion). Without that distinction, the discussion turns into less beneficial debates.

I don't believe you've caught what I was saying about me being a pentecostal-freewiller-preMil etc believer who is more than at home in a Reformed theology church. I believe if you had, you see that I'm not as hard nosed as you may think.
No, brother, I definitely see it -- and I like that in you! I also feel at home in places where I might not totally agree with some of the doctrines held by those around me. To me, the important thing is whether or not we truly have a relationship with Jesus Christ and are hungry to know Him in truth. Petty doctrinal differences are not important to me in terms of the encouragement that we can offer one another.
I was just under the impression that we can say about Any doctrine of the Church, "I believe __________ and these are the verses that have convinced me of _____________ ."

I agree...but we should be aware that there are many who do not present their beliefs as such. These forums are a testament to how tenaciously some brethren will defend their beliefs! When it comes to the more highly disputed doctrinal persuasions, I just think that we could afford some clearly distinctive wording that would acknowledge that there is credible debate about such matters.

I hope this helps clarify what I am trying to express in all of this, brother! I apologize for the confusion.

S
sermonindex

Thank you for explaining further. I really liked your word "persuasion" because Paul used it. It rang well with me. I found "persuated' listed 18 times in the N.T. - so I will switch to using that word instead - I really do like the sound of it and the fact that it's a more Biblical word. Thank you!

:-)

S
sermonindex

Brother, I fully convinced that this sermon is the [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=3338]need of the hour.[/url]

Amen, GOD help us all.

L
Lysa

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
I wonder just how many divisive doctrinal disputes might be solved if people would just confess that they aren't 100% completely sure about an issue that isn't entirely spelled out by the Word of God.

That would be wonderful if this were true but as human beings, we DO tend to say we are not 100% sure but true to our human form, we usually always finish the conversation or post with exactly what it is that we are unsure about (the side we "lean" heavily toward)!! >huge grin< We just set what it is that we are "unsure" about in cement when we do that.

You do it too! It's human nature.

I have stated that I wasn't certain but I do not think it is relevant to continually say this in every post; matter of fact, to me, it's redundant to keep saying it over and over and over. To me, this is why I'm in the discussion (and it's not to agree with you or anyone else)! LOL

Do you not know my position when I post? Yes, so I also do not believe that I should have to include my leanings every single time - you know what they are. I try to debate the matter at hand. One comment that I am wondering about... to keep it short and sweet! You could cut your posts in half if you took out all your uncertainties and stating your leanings!! [Just an observation, do what you feel compelled to do!!]

But believe me, brother, if I ever change back to pre-trib, you and everyone else will be the first to know!! I will shout it from the roof tops as I shout that I believe we will be here!

Do you know what is certain? When I see a new tribulation title in the discussion thread, I know I will see one or many postings by ccchhhrrriiisss, waltern and others for pre-trib! It's a given! I smile to myself and say, "Here we go again!" We banter about this back and forth! It is usually not personal but some make it that way. If you do not see a post from me in the trib section.. you should KNOW I am not able to get to a computer! LOL Would the same apply to you?

Brother, I love you in Christ. I do not get offended one iota at your belief, I accept your belief (I don't understand it sometimes but I accept it and you).

I just think it's redundant to always (in every post) to post a disclaimer that [b]"the reason I am arguing/debating this position is because I'm not quite sure I'm right."[/b] (tongue-in-cheek) Now really, does make any sense? LOLOLOLOL

I love you brother, in Christ!!
God bless you abundantly!!

[edited for clarity]

S
savannah

Lysa wrote,

"...When I see a new tribulation title in the discussion thread, I know I will see one or many postings by ccchhhrrriiisss..."

Again Lysa wrote,

"I just think it's redundant to always (in every post) to post a disclaimer that "the reason I am arguing/debating this position is because I'm not quite sure I'm right." (tongue-in-cheek) Now really, does [that] make any sense?..."

No,it doesn't make any sense.

I have observed the same. Not only is such a mind evidenced here on this thread, but it is a plague of this age which is a source of confusion to many who'd know the Truth as it is in Jesus.

Here is one post from 2009/2/7 which shows that this observation is not unfounded,(the following was a reply to an article posted by sermonindex on the rapture entitled A Secret Rapture? by Sis. Susan Mutch)

"It would be nice if people like this could add those two simple words that distinguish between truth and persuasion: "I believe..."

Instead, some people in the discussion of Biblical eschatology feel the need to call something "unbiblical" that many people (myself included) feel might actually be quite Scriptural (at least, in some portions of the discussion). I wonder how "post-trib" believers would feel if I jumped into this argument and started calling all of their persuasions to be decidedly "unbiblical" or an embrace of "false doctrine?" It would be wrong to do so...because there is not a clear consensus in Scripture regarding this matter...even if people would act if it were so.

I am happy to listen to this woman's argument...but I am disappointed that she promotes her view as "truth" while she also readily rejects those who disagree with her view as promoters of "false doctrine.""

Spurgeon answered this mentality well when he wrote,

"SOME things are true and some things are false: --- I regard that as an axiom; but there are many persons who evidently do not believe it. The current principle of the present age seems to be, "Some things are either true or false, according to the point of view from which you look at them. Black is white, and white is black according to circumstances; and it does not particularly matter which you call it. Truth of course is true, but it would be rude to say that the opposite is a lie; we must not be bigoted, but remember the motto, 'So many men, so many minds,'" Our forefathers were particular about maintaining landmarks; they had strong notions about fixed points of revealed doctrine, and were very tenacious of what they believed to be scriptural; their fields were protected by hedges and ditches, but their sons have grubbed up the hedges, filled up the ditches, laid all level, and played at leap-frog with the boundary stones. The school of modern thought laughs at the ridiculous positiveness of Reformers and Puritans; it is advancing in glorious liberality, and before long will publish a grand alliance between heaven and hell, or, rather, an amalgamation of the two establishments upon terms of mutual concession, allowing falsehood and truth to lie side by side, like the lion with the lamb. Still, for all that, my firm oldfashioned belief is that some doctrines are true, and that statements, which are diametrically opposite to them are not true, -- that when "No" is the fact, "Yes" is out of court, and that when "Yes" can be justified, "No" must be abandoned." -

Would to God that the following documentary be viewed by many in our 'left behind' generation.

http://www.lategreatplanetchurch.com/

The Word of God is no lie and no lie is of the Truth. If God tells us what He tells us below, then in His Word is our confidence. Any who'd tell us otherwise concur with The Liar who would convince us that truth cannot be known assuredly.

John 16:13 But, when he, the Spirit of truth is come, he will guide you into all the truth: for he will not speak from himself; but whatever he shall hear, that will he speak: and he will show you things to come.

Worship God

Rev. 19:10 Rev. 22:9

S
sermonindex

I just got very shook by a thought. I've believed post-trib since about 1985, after almost a decade of teaching pre-trib.
Every Church I've attended since I've been saved has been pre-trib and I knew it and the pastors preached it - but I never argued with them but just gave them my position paper of just Scriptures and we enjoyed all that we had in common elsewhere.
The church I'm in now is not pre-trib, but as I already told, where we don't agree - but I know what they "hold firmly to" and they of me. I call it honesty.

The part that shook me, having had to attend SO many churches because I had to live so many places is - that I've known many, thinking back now, that 'Did' Have Firm Beliefs, but these leaders wouldn't commit to admitting their beliefs "so as to not lose people" - even though, had they preached these beliefs, they could have saved souls/lives. :cry:

Is disingenuous the proper word for this?

I believe the Alpha Course & the Purpose Driven or Emerging Church was based upon this emphasis on 'numbers'.

C
Christinyou

What is a post-tribulationists doing in the seven years? Is he not doing works of the flesh with the help of Christ to be pleasing to God and make it through the tribulation and so keep his head?

Mid trib also, working with Christ to accomplish their own tribulation forced on them by God to cleanse them and make them ready for Gods' house.

All works related and making the tribulation just another Jewish works church keeping the Law and not worshiping the beast.

What are pre-trib Raptured son's of God doing? Christ has done it all, He has come for His bride, His Church, His body and has taken it back to the Father's House where Jesus has already prepared a place with many mansion for His Bride.

This rapture is all of Christ and none of man, so which ones would Satan promote?

I see clearly mans attempt to continue in his works salvation and works keeping his salvation, by post and mid tribulation coming of Christ, which is of Satan to take away from the perfect works of Christ on His Cross, which He said, "It
is finished".

How are we not condemned? How are we new creation people of God? How are we the Bride of Christ whom He nourishes and washes her with the, "washing of the water with the Word", that He might present to Himself a perfect Church and Bride with spot or wrinkle. This is His works in the believer not our works in the tribulation to make us presentable to Christ as His bride, to present every man perfect in Christ: Specifically and especially spoken by Paul by direct revelation of Jesus Christ; Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Not made perfect by the tribulation.

We are already His Perfect Bride, we with our oil lamps lit are just waiting for His coming for His Bride, Not the Fathers Israel, or the ones with no oil for their lamps who miss the Grace by Faith of the pre-trib rapture into the Fathers house. So shall we ever be with the Lord, comfort one another with these words, Amen.

In Christ and waiting for the rapture to be taken to the Fathers' House and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Post works, mid works, pre Grace by Faith.

Why would God take His only begotten Son and His bride and put them through tribulation all over again, Christ did it once on the Cross and scripture says He will not do it again. Mid and Post put Christ in elect through all over again the Hell Christ went through on the Cross. God says it will not happen again.

2Co 13:4 For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you.
Ga 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Ga 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Ga 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Ga 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
Re 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

We are already crucified to the world and the world to us, there is no tribulation for those who are in Christ Jesus, no more tribulation for Him or us that are in Him and He in us. A new creation race of God's people, son's of God.

In Christ: Phillip

S
sermonindex

Philip, do you know what Reformed Theology is?

Do you know what they believe?

That many are post-trib - but you've got them all as works based.

I never thought you'd stoop to this type misrepresentation of those who believe differently then you about the timing of the resurrection. What you have said is equivalent to me saying that Pre-trib believers all believe in "easy-believism."

[b]You have no prophetic [end time] Scripture to back your words.[/b]

This is as low as I've ever seen anyone go in this debate --

All works related and making the tribulation just another Jewish works church keeping the Law and not worshiping the beast.

What are pre-trib Raptured son's of God doing? Christ has done it all, He has come for His bride, His Church, His body and has taken it back to the Father's House where Jesus has already prepared a place with many mansion for His Bride.

This rapture is all of Christ and none of man, so which ones would Satan promote?

I see clearly mans attempt to continue in his works salvation and works keeping his salvation, by post and mid tribulation coming of Christ, which is of Satan to take away from the perfect works of Christ on His Cross, which He said, "It
is finished".

Are you saying we've already been raptured here?

Do you ever read any verses about the "suffering" of the Saints?

S
sermonindex

What is a post-tribulationists doing in the seven years? Is he not doing works of the flesh with the help of Christ to be pleasing to God and make it through the tribulation and so keep his head?

To ""keep" his head"? 7 yrs? What do you consider "works" Philip?

Those who keep the commandments of Jesus - is that "works"?

1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

C
ChrisJD

Spurgeon answered this mentality well when he wrote,...

The Lord Jesus Christ said,


[b][color=660000]My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or [i]whether[/i] I speak of myself. He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.
[/color][/b]


Yes, truth exists. Every man will answer whether it came out of his mouth or not.

S
sermonindex

The fact that Spurgeon, Ryle and a host of other names that we quote daily here were post-trib is what shocked me most by Philip's post.
And that we just went through a period of posts telling us to post our feelings on this lightly - we're told post-trib is Satanic, etc.
Just got taken back because of the list I viewed of our Classic favorites who did hold to a post-trib view. I suspect that some other could interpret Philip's post better than me.

S
sermonindex

I realize these lists have been posted elsewhere but I just found this article and thought I'd post it in part.

_________________________________________________

The post-tribulational position taken here is not new, in fact, the Church has believed this way for more than 19 centuries: The early Church, the Reformation leaders, and most great theologians have believed the Church would be persecuted by the Antichrist (the evil world dictator during the Great Tribulation), and then the rapture would occur at Christ's glorious Second Coming.

THE EARLY CHURCH

Those whom the apostles personally instructed, and those taught in turn by them, were most likely to know and adhere to the original teachings.

Justin Martyr (100 to 167 A.D.) lived near the time of the apostle John (died 100 A.D.); Justin taught the resurrection and rapture of believers would occur at the beginning of the millennium (Christ's 1000-year reign, which starts just after the Second Coming). Justin also wrote, "the man of apostasy [Antichrist] ...shall venture to do unlawful deeds on earth against us the Christians" (Trypho cx).

Irenaeus (130 to 200 A.D.) who said he held the actual apostles' teaching, wrote, "they [the ten kings of Rev. 17:1-13] shall ...give their kingdom to the beast [Antichrist], and put the Church to flight" (Against Heresies V, 26, 1). Irenaeus also said : "but he [John] indicates the number of the name [666 of Antichrist] now, that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is" ( Against Heresies V, 30, 4).

Tertullian (150 to 220 A.D.) attached the rapture of 1 Thessalonians 4, to the start of Christ's millennial kingdom on earth. Tertullian said the tribulation situation will be such "that the beast Antichrist with his false prophet may wage war on the Church of God" (On the Resurrection of the Flesh xxv).

Cyprian (200 to 260 A.D.) writes, "Nor let any of you, beloved brethren, be terrified by the fear of future persecution, by the coming of the threatening Antichrist" (Epistle 55,7). And we do well to take Cyprian's advice, since the Lord's grace is sufficient for true believers to be victorious in any situation.

Pseudo-Ephraem (perhaps 400 or 600 A.D.) was a man who "borrowed" materials from the real Ephraem of Syria, ---and some pre-tribulationists have taken several sentences out of context, in an attempt to say that there was an early date for the pre-tribulation rapture teaching. The main two sentences of Pseudo-Ephraem which are quoted, state : "Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare oursleves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that He may draw us from the confusion which overwhelms all the world? ... For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they ever see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins." ---Note, that these quoted sentences do not mention a coming of the Lord, or a resurrection of the dead or a glorification (translation) or a heavenly destination of believers.

However, in a very solid and thorough analysis of the writings of both pseudo and real Ephraem, Dr. Robert Gundry (in his book, "First the Antichrist", '97, Baker, p.161-188) concludes that in reality, "Pseudo-Ephraem urges Christians to forsake worldliness in preparation for meeting Christ when he returns after the great tribulation. Meanwhile, Christian evangelism is taking people to the Lord and gathering them into the Church. ... This interpretation takes account of Pseudo-Ephraem's leaving the corpses of Christians unburied during the tribulation, putting the resurrection of Christians and their meeting Christ at his coming after the tribulation to destroy the Antichrist, making imminent the advent of Antichrist rather than that of Christ, and utilizing the plainly and heavily post-trib tradition of true Ephraem, who repeatedly portrayed present-day evangelism as a gathering" (my emphases).

Not only did the early Church teach that the Church would face Antichrist, and that Christ would return at the beginning of the Millennium, but in all of Church history, there is never a pre-tribulation rapture teaching, until Edward Irving writes of it in the 1830s A.D. -----So, the pre-trib rapture teaching is only 170 years old (and the mid-trib teaching is even more recent).

Outstanding Bible Teachers in subsequent generations of Church history, who taught that the Church would encounter the persecution of the Antichrist here on earth before the Second Coming, include : John Calvin, Martin Luther, John Knox, John Bunyan, Isaac Newton, George Whitefield, Charles Spurgeon, Charles Hodge, Henry Alford, J.Sidlow Baxter, F.F. Bruce, Thomas Chalmers, Adam Clarke, Jonathan Edwards, Jim Elliott, W.J. Erdman, Robert Gundry, Carl F. Henry, Matthew Henry, John Huss, Orson Jones, C.S. Lovett, J.Gresham Machen, Peter Marshall, Walter Martin, Gary Matsdorf, G.Campbell Morgan, Leon Morris, George Mueller, Ian Murray, B.W. Newton, John Newton, H.J. Ockenga, Bernard Ramm, Alexander Reese, A. Saphir, Demos Shakarian, A.B. Simpson, Oswald J. Smith, Jim Spillman, Charles Spurgeon, Corrie TenBoom, S.P. Tragelles, William Tyndale, B.B. Warfield, Charles Wesley, R.F. Youngblood, -----and premillennial posttribulationists also include : Bengel, Brooks, Cameron, Delitzsch, Derstine, DeWette, Ellicott, Ewald, Frost, Godet, Godwin, Joyner, Kellogg, Moorehead, Orelli, Robertson, Rothe, Ryle, Spener, Stier, Trench, Volck, Van Ostersee, West, Whiston, Zahn, and many more.


http://worldview_3.tripod.com/tribchurch.html - by R. Totten, MDiv - © 1997

L
Lysa

What are pre-trib Raptured son's of God doing? Christ has done it all, He has come for His bride, His Church, His body and has taken it back to the Father's House where Jesus has already prepared a place with many mansion for His Bride.

This rapture is all of Christ and none of man, so which ones would Satan promote?


Let me share something, I heard a compilation where the man was sharing a story about "what will our story be" when we get to heaven. We are going to have to sit and listen to those who were eaten by lions, boiled to death, gutted, burned at the stake and then when it's our turn to give "our story" [we Christians in America], what do you think.

I think many of us in America smugly think we are blessed by living in America (I know I used to); but the last couple of years, I've really wondered if living in America hasn't put us at a disadvantage because....

I think it's amazing that we Christians (in America) can lay in bed on Sunday mornings and think, "Hmmm, where o where do I want go to church today?" While Christians in North Korea, China and Muslim countries put their lives on the line [b]"DAILY"[/b] by choosing to live their faith; how do you choose to live out your faith daily?

Do you consider yourself lucky and blessed to be living in America where all you have to worry about is possibly losing your job and/or your house but not your life, your children life, your spouses life? True we might get killed in a car accident but that's not like dying from starvation or malnutrition or being tortured or shot in a forgotten jail cell somewhere in China, old Russia, or North Korea.

Yet, it seems, you're actually telling everyone here that "post-trib" folks are being used by Satan in order to promote being here during tribulation???? If so, absolutely unbelievable!

One more thing I find ironic and let me try to get it right!! So because we believe that the church and Church will be here, we are believing in a works salvation? Ok, applying that logic, you must also think that every person who has suffered and been killed for their faith since Christ ascended into heaven, that they too, were "attempting to continue in ... works salvation and works keeping his salvation?" Are they too condemned?

Please explain.

S
sermonindex


[b][color=990000]How often do we find the "Church" metioned in the Book of Revelation? In the first three chapters we read about the Church in great detail.

Then, at the beginning of chapter 4 we read the following:

Revelation 4

1. After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.[/color][/b]

Then, after Chapter 4, we find the following in references to the "Church".


Chapter 5--no Church on the earth
Chapter 6--no Church on the earth
Chapter 7---no Church on the earth.
We read that the four angels are standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds so that they will not blow on the earth, nor the sea, nor on any tree. Also, another Angel ascended from the east having the seal of the living God, who would seal 12,000 of each of the tribes of Israel (all Jews) on their foreheads, so that they could not be killed.

Then, we return to heaven to see all the souls (Jews and Gentiles who became believers during the Tribulaton) of those who lost their lives in the great tribulation, standing in their robes, who have been washed in the blood of the Lamb, who stand before the Throne of God, and serve Him night and day in His temple.

Chapter 8—no Church on the earth.
We (the Church) are in heaven again, with a further description with what is going in regards to the seals that God is opening upon the earth—seals of judgment. There is also a beautiful description of the prayers of the saints. It ends with a focus of what God has in store for the earth:”And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!”


Chapter 9-- 1. No mention of the Church on the earth, just an explanation of the trumpet judgments taking place on the earth.

Revelation 10—no mention of the Church on the earth.

It ends with John in Heaven, being asked by Christ to remove the “little book” from the hands of the Angel, and eat it. After eating it, he was told by Christ:

“And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.”


Revelation 11. No mention of the Church on the earth, only the Jews, who are the witnesses. [b]The 2 Jews who fit this description are Enoch & Elijah, the only two men in history who ascended to heaven without dying in their natural bodies (Genesis 5:24; 2 Kings 2:11; Hebrews 11:5)[/b]

Goes into detail about how the Gentiles (non-believers, living on the earth) will have control of the Temple and the Temple Mount for 42 months (3 1/2 years). Also, He will give power to the two witnesses to prophesy for one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.

The "Church" is not mentioned as being on the earth, only gentiles (non-believers).

Revelation 12. We see no mention of the Church as being on this earth.

We see Israel (the woman), & those Jews who have come to belief in Messiah during the Tribulation, as being protected by God for the remaining 3 ½ years in the wilderness from Satan. The chapter ends with the dragon (Satan) being angry with the woman (Israel), and going to make war with the remnant of her seed (Jews who became believers during the Tribulation), which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. We also hear that Babylon has now fallen.


Revelation 13—no mention of the Church on this earth. Goes into detail about Antichrist, and those people who worship him and take the mark of the beast and blaspheme and hate God. Verse seven (13:7) refers to the “Saints” who are not the Church. They are Jews and Gentiles that have come to belief in Messiah after the tribulation commenced.

Revelation 14—no mention of the Church on the earth, but mention of the Lamb of God (Jesus Christ) and the 144,000 witnesses from the twelve tribes of Israel, etc. There again is a mention of the “saints”, but that again refers to Jews and Gentiles who have come to belief in Messiah, in Jesus Christ during the Tribulation. We also read about the 2nd coming 14. And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16. And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. 17. And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18. And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19. And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20. And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Revelation 15-- No mention of the Church on the earth.

We read about the seven angels, in heaven, having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
2. And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
3. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
4. Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.
5. And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened: 6. And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.
7. And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
8. And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled

Revelation 16—no mention of the Church on this earth.

It is all about the vials being poured out on this earth, and the response is always the same-the remarks from those receiving the vials are not those of the Church, but those of the damned. The lost, the damned, blaspheme and hate God:
“21. And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great."

Revelation 17:
No mention of the Church on this earth.

Revelation 18
No mention of the Church on this earth

Revelation 19 No mention of the Church on the earth, [b][color=990000]however, we do see His Church returning to earth with HIM!!!!!

The Lord comes, with His Saints!


Zechariah 14:
5. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, AND ALL THE SAINTS WITH THEE.[/color][/b]

We see Christ return to earth, with His Saints (that would be us,[b][color=990000] THE CHURCH [/color][/b]. While the Kings and armies of the earth gathered together to make war against Him. They were all slain by the word from His mouth.

Revelation 20
We see Satan, bound in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years.

[b]We also see those that have come to belief in Messiah, in Jesus Christ during the Tribulation, and were killed for their belief, resurrected in their new glorified bodies, ready to rule and reign with Him during the 1,000 year millennium[/b]

Then, when the 1,000 years are over, Christ lets the dragon, Satan, out of the bottomless pit one last time to deceive the nations. Satan, and billions of people will march against Christ in Jerusalem, and God will send fire from heaven and devour them,. The devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Next we see the Great White Throng judgment, where the lost are judged.
After Judgment (they were all judged by their works), they were all cast into the lake of fire.


Revelation 21
With a new heaven and new earth, we finally find the “Church”, which is now “New Jerusalem”, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bide adorned for her husband.—a Bride consisting of believers, Jew and Gentile alike, the Church! .3. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Revelation 22
A further description of the Church:
1. And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3. And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4. And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
5. And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
6. And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
7. Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.


Sincerely,

Walter


Lysa wrote:
What are pre-trib Raptured son's of God doing? Christ has done it all, He has come for His bride, His Church, His body and has taken it back to the Father's House where Jesus has already prepared a place with many mansion for His Bride.

This rapture is all of Christ and none of man, so which ones would Satan promote?


Let me share something, I heard a compilation where the man was sharing a story about "what will our story be" when we get to heaven. We are going to have to sit and listen to those who were eaten by lions, boiled to death, gutted, burned at the stake and then when it's our turn to give "our story" [we Christians in America], what do you think.

I think many of us in America smugly think we are blessed by living in America (I know I used to); but the last couple of years, I've really wondered if living in America hasn't put us at a disadvantage because....

I think it's amazing that we Christians (in America) can lay in bed on Sunday mornings and think, "Hmmm, where o where do I want go to church today?" While Christians in North Korea, China and Muslim countries put their lives on the line [b]"DAILY"[/b] by choosing to live their faith; how do you choose to live out your faith daily?

Do you consider yourself lucky and blessed to be living in America where all you have to worry about is possibly losing your job and/or your house but not your life, your children life, your spouses life? True we might get killed in a car accident but that's not like dying from starvation or malnutrition or being tortured or shot in a forgotten jail cell somewhere in China, old Russia, or North Korea.

Yet, it seems, you're actually telling everyone here that "post-trib" folks are being used by Satan in order to promote being here during tribulation???? If so, absolutely unbelievable!

One more thing I find ironic and let me try to get it right!! So because we believe that the church and Church will be here, we are believing in a works salvation? Ok, applying that logic, you must also think that every person who has suffered and been killed for their faith since Christ ascended into heaven, that they too, were "attempting to continue in ... works salvation and works keeping his salvation?" Are they too condemned?

Please explain.


S
sermonindex

Hi Walter.

Using that argument about the use of the phrase "the church" falls through when you realize HE was speaking to 7 specific churches in Turkey specifically - though they represent different churches/church types and we apply each to ourselves and ages as well.

HE doesn't use the term "elect" in the Revelation neither.

The term "the church" is used 79 times in the N.T. and more times than not, it is used for a specific location where those believers met.

The Apostles would use the term Saints, church and the elect interchangably.

'The Saints' is the word that both Daniel and John used and these two books are always studied together. The Elect are both Jewish believers and Gentile through-out the N.T..

As far as the trumpet voice telling John to come up - that is one of the few in the Revelation that is used for "the rapture" but that is a stretch.
The "Trumpet Voice" was speaking from Chpt 1. He was in the spirit, seeing the conditions of the churches. Rev 1:10-20 ?

The rest The LORD needed to take him to heaven to see because he needed to see The Throne and what shall go on Angelically FROM there. The 7 churches he could see on earth in the spirit but the things that would come down from Heaven, he needed to see from Heaven. That is all that one verse means and the term "churches" in the plural is found 37 times from Acts on. "Saints" is used 61 times and 13 of those times in the Revelation.

Who are all these "Saints" from Rev 5 right through till chpt 20 and why isn't "church" used anytime after chpt 19?

C
Christinyou

1 Corinthians 3:22-23 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours; And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

I believe that I am Christs' and I know that Christ is Gods. All the ones that have died in Christ, be it persecution of man or Satan is for the better of those that are slain and us who live in Christ now. "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord". "All things happen for good, to those that are called according to His purpose". "As He is in this world, so are we". How is He in this world? Is not His Body the Church His to save and protect.
Is not death our glorous gain. But when it comes to the Great tribulation, it is not Gods purpose to put His Body of Christ the Church through what the present Church is now going through and even greater tribulation such as the world has never seen, we are already cleansed and perfect in Christ. All that are killed because of their declaration that Christ is God and the only One that saves, if for our all and in all in Christ.

1 Corinthians 3:22-23 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours; And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

Albert Barnes says it very well;

Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible
1 Corinthians 3:22
Verse 22. Whether Paul, or Apollos. The sense of this is clear. Whatever advantages result from the piety, self-denials, and labours of Paul, Apollos, or any other preacher of the gospel, are yours--you have the benefit of them. One is as much entitled to the benefit as another; and all partake alike in the results of their ministration. You should therefore neither range yourselves into parties with their names given to the parties, nor suppose that one has any peculiar interest in Paul, or another in Apollos. Their labours belonged to the church in general. They had no partialities--no rivalship--no desire to make parties. They were united, and desirous of promoting the welfare of the whole church of God. The doctrine is, that ministers belong to the church, and should devote themselves to its welfare; and that the church enjoys, in common, the benefits of the learning, zeal, piety, eloquence, talents, example of the ministers of God. And it may be observed, that it is no small privilege thus to be permitted to regard all the labours of the most eminent servants of God as designed for our welfare; and for the humblest saint to feel that the labours of apostles, the self- denials and sufferings, the pains and dying agonies of martyrs, have been for his advantage.
Or Cephas. Or Peter. (Joh 1:42.)

Or the world. This word is doubtless used, in its common signification, to denote the things which God has made; the universe, the things which pertain to this life. And the meaning of the apostle probably is, that all things pertaining to this world which God has made--all the events which are occurring in his providence were so far theirs, that they would contribute to their advantage and their enjoyment. This general idea may be thus expressed:

(1.) The world was made by God, their common Father, and they have an interest in it as his children, regarding it as the work of his hand, and seeing him present in all his works. Nothing contributes so much to the true enjoyment of the world--to comfort in surveying the heavens, the earth, the ocean, hills, vales, plants, flowers, streams, in partaking of the gifts of Providence, as this feeling, that all are the works of the Christian's Father, and that they may all partake of these favours as his children.

(2.) The frame of the universe is sustained and upheld for their sake. The universe is kept by God; and one design of God in keeping it is to protect, preserve, and redeem his church and people. To this end he defends it by day and night; he orders all things; he keeps it from the storm and tempest, from flood and fire, and from annihilation. The sun, and moon, and stars, the times and seasons, are all thus ordered, that his church may be guarded, and brought to heaven.

(3.) The course of providential events are ordered for their welfare also, Ro 8:28. The revolutions of kingdoms, the various persecutions and trials, even the rage and fury of wicked men, are all overruled, to the advancement of the cause of truth, and the welfare of the church.

(4.) Christians have the promise of as much of this world as shall be needful for them; and in this sense "the world" is theirs. See Mt 6:33; Mr 10:29-30; 1Ti 4:8, "Godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come." And such was the result of the long experience and observation of David. Ps 37:25, "I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread." Isa 33:16.

Or life. Life is theirs, because

(1.) they enjoy life. It is real life to them, and not a vain show. They live for a real object, and not for vanity. Others live for parade and ambition--Christians live for the great purposes of life; and life to them has reality, as being a state preparatory to another and a higher world. Their life is not an endless circle of unmeaning ceremonies-- of false and hollow pretensions to friendship--of a vain pursuit of happiness, which is never found; but is passed in a manner that is rational, and sober, and that truly deserves to be called life.

(2.) The various events and occurrences of life shall all tend to promote their welfare, and advance their salvation.

Death. They have an interest, a property even in death, usually regarded as a calamity and a curse. But it is theirs,

(1.) because they shall have peace and support in the dying hour.

(2.) Because it has no terrors for them. It shall take away nothing which they are not willing to resign.

(3.) Because it is the avenue which leads to their rest; and it is theirs just in the same sense in which we say that "this is our road" when we have been long absent, and are inquiring the way to our homes.

(4.) Because they shall triumph over it. It is subdued by their Captain, and the grave has been subjected to a triumph by his rising from its chills and darkness.

(5.) Because death is the means--the occasion of introducing them to their rest. It is the advantageous circumstance in their history, by which they are removed from a world of ills, and translated to a world of glory. It is to them a source of inexpressible advantage, as it translates them to a world of light and eternal felicity; and it may truly be called theirs.

Or things present, or things to come. Events which are now happening, and all that can possibly occur to us. Cmt. on Ro 8:38. All the calamities, trials, persecutions--all the prosperity, advantages, privileges of the present time, and all that shall yet take place, shall tend to promote our welfare, and advance the interests of our souls, and promote our salvation.

All are your's. All shall tend to promote your comfort and salvation. end.

I don't believe this includes the Great Tribulation which is for those "on" this earth and the ones that will see the one they crucified, which is the whole world as earthly, not heavenly, where we are already seated in this sphere of Living in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Living in this world of works deception is 10 times harder than going through a great tribulation. Christ is all.

In Christ: Phillip

S
sermonindex

How the bulk of your post pertains to eschatology I don't put together. These things are true but do not cancel out HIS WORD from the O.T. to the End.

I'm not a debater. My only purpose for staying with this thread is because I believe we are closer to "those days" then the Great majority realize.

My heart is troubled and I'll admit - worried for those who I love because they name His Name, that they will not know anti-Christ when he is revealed because they were taught that they'd be gone before his being revealed to those with understanding and know to "watch", nor do they see that we are already well into "that generation" - since Israel was declared a nation, By the United Nations in 1948 by aid of the Balfour Declaration which came from the letter to Lord Rothchild years before.

That's my 'brief' because I'm off to church.

GOD Bless today.

S
sermonindex

To Jesus-Is-God:

You have no need to worry about Christians not being able to recognize Anti-christ. The Spirit of Anti-christ is alive right now. The Spirit of Antichrrist has been here since the beginning, except that now, as we approach the Tribulation, the spirit of Antichrist is becoming stronger. This “spirit” deceives the minds people, whether they are heathens or Christians.[b] The only weapon of the Christian to do battle against the Spirit of Antichrist is God’s Word, the Anvil, where all the thoughts and ideas that occur in our minds can be tested and compared against God's Spirit Breathed Word.[/b]

In Revelation, Chapters 1-3 Christ tells us about the 7 “types” of Churches that exist upon the earth. Then, at the beginning of Revelation 4, [b]The Resurrected Jesus Christ invites John, who is a "picture" of the true Church to leave earth and come up to heaven --[this is a "picture" of the Rapture]. [/b]He is the one who sat closest to Jesus at the Table, the one who had a personal, saving relationship with the savior. He is the one who refused to worship Cesar as Lord, and was boiled in oil, but God would not allow him to die. He is the one Apsostle that was still alive of all of the Apostles, and he is the picture for us of the “True Church” that will be raptured into Heaven. Those remaining on the earth are all non-believers, and will be allowed the opportunity to prove themselves before God and man, that they will suffer death before receiving the mark of the beast. Also, during the tribulation, many, many Jews will come to belief in Jesus as Messiah. They will also have a chance to prove their allegiance to Messiah, by giving their life rather than worshiping the image and taking the mark of the beast. All of these goats, dressed as sheep, as well as Jews who reject Jesus as Lord, and other people who are non-believers in Jesus Christ as Lord will go into the Tribulation, and many of them will come to belief in Jesus Christ, and be martyred. These are the ones that we see under the altar, in heaven, waiting for their new glorified bodies. (Rev 6:9-11)

This message to the Ephesians is directly from Jesus Christ who walks among the seven churches and is the head of the church:

#1. [b][color=0033FF]Ephesus[/color][/b]

2.I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: 3. And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.

Those of us today, who have the attitudes and behaviors of a spiritual Ephesian persevere, work hard, and try to keep false teachers out of the church. However, the Ephesians have a major problem that needs to be corrected

[b] 4. Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.[/b]
5. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.


[b]Although the Ephesians do not tolerate wickedness, are solidly against evil, and hate idolatry and immorality, they lose their first love, which is the love of the Father, his Son, his truth, and their fellow man. They become rigid to the point of self-righteousness and impose their own standards over God's righteous standards. They forget their awesome calling and the importance of the Father's royal law of love. [/b]

6. But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

When our Lord Jesus Christ walked among men, He taught His disciples to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, whom He denounced as hypocrites. With them He classed the chief priests and officials of the temple, together with the recognized teachers, (scribes, or "professors" Ferrar Fenton Translation) in the Synagogues. He declared they had so corrupted the truth of God, which they were supposed to preach, with the doctrines and ordinances of men, that the truth, as originally given, was no longer with them. That which these blind leaders of the blind were giving forth as truth of God was making their converts twofold more the children of hell than they were before accepting the [schi]ism by these corrupt teachers. This would of course apply to false and corrupt teachers & "prophets" alive and well today, that are nothing more than wolves, disguished as sheep


Christ finishes with the following: “7. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches;[b] To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.[/b]

#2 [b][color=0033FF]Smyrna[/color][/b]

These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
9. I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. 10. Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. 11. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Once again, we see the positive aspects of these elect as they try to do things right. Yet some will suffer imprisonment and even martyrdom to test their faithfulness. This is a group of the elect that will face severe trials and persecution in the time just before Christ's return.

The English word tribulation is from the Greek 'thilipsis', which means anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble. The word poverty is from the Greek 'ptocheia', which means real destitution. Those of Smyrna are under much personal pressure and have virtually no material goods.
Strong's Number: 2347 [TRIBULATION]
Transliterated: thlipsis
Phonetic: thlip'-sis
Text: from 2346; pressure (literally or figuratively): --afflicted(-tion), anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble.
Strong's Number: 4432 [POVERTY]
Transliterated: ptocheia
Phonetic: pto-khi'-ah
Text: from 4433; beggary, i.e. indigence (literally or figuratively): --poverty.

One reason for this poverty is the natural order of things, which can be seen in economically disadvantaged countries and the lower economic class of society as a whole. In the early church, the elect were impoverished as a result of persecution that caused them to flee to other areas. And sometimes their goods were stolen while they were being beaten in their own homes for their beliefs. The prophecies indicate that these conditions will also exist during the time just before Christ returns.

Some of spiritual Smyrna will suffer imprisonment for ten days (i.e., a limited length of time) during a time of intense persecution that will come to an end. However, in the ancient world, imprisonment was just a prelude to being executed. Thus, many of this group of elect may end up being persecuted and some will be imprisoned before being executed.
Christ is telling those of Smyrna that he and his Father demand absolute loyalty even in the face of death. Christ warns those of Smyrna not to give up but to remain steadfast in the faith and become overcomers through their persecution, imprisonment, and physical death in order to obtain the crown of eternal life.

[b]In addition, Smyrna is filled with internal strife and persecution caused by those who are not truly converted. Instead of removing the cause of their trouble or removing themselves from the problem in accordance to clear scriptural instructions, many of those of Smyrna will suffer persecution from within and outside of the church. [/b]

# 3 [b][color=0033FF]Pergamos[/color][/b]
Historically, Pergamos was the administrative center of Asia, which meant that in the first century it was a center of Caesar worship for the whole province. This is why it is referred to as Satan's seat. Pergamos was a city where people were required to worship Caesar or die. Also referred to as Pergamos is a group of God's people who live right in the center of Satan's religious system

12. And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges; 13. I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

Jesus praises those of Pergamos for not being afraid to be called Christians and for holding onto the faith, even after one of their group was martyred for being faithful. However, notice in verses 14-16 what Christ has against some of them. Some held the teaching of Balaam who taught Balak to entice the Israelites to sin by eating things sacrificed to idols and by committing sexual immorality:

14. But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. 15. So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. 16. Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

What is said about some of the elect of Pergamos can also be said about some of the elect today in America & the rest of the world. Today's society is extremely promiscuous with many sexual perversions being accepted and practiced. And some of the elect of God, including their spiritual leaders, suffer from the same attitudes and behaviors found in ancient Pergamos.[b] Because of this, Christ says that he will fight against those of Pergamos who do such abominable things. This is an extremely serious warning; Jesus Christ does not play games with a person's salvation. Therefore, any to whom this warning applies should take it very seriously and act appropriately.[/b]

Those of ancient Pergamos lived in an environment where Satan's influence, through false religions, was exceptionally strong and some of the elect had compromised God's standards in order to avoid problems with the society around them. Rather than having an attitude of coming out of this society and being separate as God requires of his elect children (2Corinthians 6:17), they became a part of the evil society around them, and will end up going through the Great Tribulation.

Next, Christ warns that any of the elect who have an attitude of compromise concerning the truth of God during the time just prior to his return will find themselves at war with him. Remember that the word of God cuts as a two edged sword and causes division between those who truly believe and those who do not.

Therefore, we can assume that division over what is right and wrong will cause great turmoil among those with the attitude of Pergamos. They will be persecuted by the world and warned by Jesus Christ of his intent to kill those of his church who refuse to behave righteously and avoid partaking of the evils of this society:

17. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

#4[b][color=0033FF] Thyatira[/color][/b]

18. And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; 19. I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.

Once again, Jesus offers much praise for the good done by this group of the elect; however, there is a very serious problem that needs to be corrected if they are to be successful in gaining eternal and immortal life.

20.\tNotwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21. And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23. And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

The problems within Thyatira did not come from outside the church; they came from within. They began with Thyatira's acceptance of the teachings of a woman who was thought to be a prophetess from God, but who in actuality was an evil person, as was king Ahab's wife Jezebel. This woman urged them to compromise in order to comply with the world's standards and thereby gain the acceptance of non-believers, advantage in business, and prosperity in other areas of life.

This false prophetess was not necessarily trying to destroy the church; she just wanted the elect to view the truth of God in a more liberal way than Jesus Christ and the apostles had taught. However, her teachings led to compromise, especially in relation to idolatry, which led to spiritual fornication.

[b]Many of Thyatira will receive the trial of fire because of their lack of zeal for the truth of God. Jesus will put them through great persecution and even martyrdom in an attempt to awaken them to their sinful condition and give them a final opportunity to repent. Jesus warns that he will kill the unrepentant in order to purge and purify his Father's sons: [/b]
24. But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.

Some of God's people have deliberately sought to do evil. But why? The teachings of the ancient Jezebel seemed to encourage sin, because one could repent and accept God's graciousness and make God look good. Many today have actually built this case by corrupting the scriptures and thereby turning God’s grace into a license to sin.

Although these people show service, faith, love, and perseverance, it is apparent that they desire to be entertained rather than instructed, to be soothed rather than corrected, and to be more of a social club than an educated congregation. If you went into this congregation, on the surface you would think this is a dynamic group with great works, yet they do not really want to be educated in the truth of God nor follow his spiritual ways.
At the center of Thyatira's problems is the acceptance of the teachings of a false prophetess and, perhaps, in some cases, a false prophet. Many of these people appear to be righteous but they will not easily give up their false teachings. This group has a problem of worshiping the Sabbath, which is idolatry. Moreover, they worship a person and their false teachings, which is idolatry and compromising the truth of God. To those of Thyatira who are carefully and zealously following the teachings of God, Christ says:

25. But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. 26. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27. And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. 28. And I will give him the morning star. 29. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

# 5[b][color=0033FF] Sardis[/color][/b]
1. And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
2. Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
3. Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
4. Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

[b]Within the Sardis grouping of the elect, there are only a few who have not defiled themselves spiritually. The implication is that unless there is a major change in their attitude and behavior, most who have the attitude of the Sardis church will end up in the Lake of Fire.[/b]

The first time a person makes a serious mistake after their conversion, they may recognize this as a sin due to a weakness in their life. If a person deals with it at the time and resolves to change, the problem will be overcome. But, if one compromises themselves again and again, each subsequent compromise becomes easier and easier until self-delusion sets in and sin becomes an acceptable way of conducting oneself before God the Father and Jesus Christ. A person with the Sardis attitude does not truly believe that the wages of sin brings eternal death. See Romans 6:23.

The congregations pictured as Sardis do not appear to be troubled by heresy, because they do not have anyone among them who is thinking enough to come up with a heresy. They are so spiritually dead and so lazy that they just accept whatever doctrines seem pleasant and easy to comply with. They are just drifting along in ignorance to their plight and the serious danger that confronts them. This church is not likely to be troubled by an attack by Satan or any other outside source, because the truth is that they are so spiritually dead already that they are not worth attacking.

The warning to those of Sardis is that they had better quickly wake up to their deadly lethargy and watch out, because their salvation is in jeopardy. Christ also warns that within the congregations of Sardis there are only a few who truly love the Father and his Son and are following the ways of God. Jesus encourages these few to continue to be watchful and they will receive their reward. However, most of their brothers and sisters in Christ who appear outwardly to be spiritually alive but are spiritually dead, will die the second death in the Lake of Fire if they do not repent of their evil ways. Vigilance is really part of the price of liberty under Christ.

Christ is telling the lethargic elect of Sardis to think back to when they first heard the truth of God and the Father's good news about his Son and salvation and to remember the time of their spiritual awakening and their repentance and conversion to a son of God.

Most of Sardis are in great danger. They have accepted the sacrifice of Jesus Christ as their own and have known the Father; therefore, they are having their opportunity for salvation. But, because of their sins, they are on the pathway that leads to eternal death. That is why this warning is so severe. They have little or no will to prayerfully study God's word or to use it on a continuing basis to help them overcome their spiritual flaws. They are so self-deceived that they do not even realize that the little truth they have is slipping away and that they are in danger of losing their salvation.
Christ says in order to be among the overcomers whom he will accept, any with the Sardis attitude must awaken from the deadly lethargy and show some signs of repentance and change:

5.[b]He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. 6. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.[/b]

Those of Sardis are not fulfilling their responsibilities to grow in grace and knowledge nor are they fulfilling their commission properly. Most in Sardis are complacent and are not trying to live a righteous life. They have allowed the truth of God to slip away, and Jesus considers them spiritually dead.

Because they have stopped trying to overcome, Jesus sees no benefit in pursuing their salvation any further and will allow them to die if they do not make an effort to repent and live righteously.

Make no mistake, only the overcomer will keep their name from being blotted out of the book of life. Jesus says that any with the attitude of Sardis are on the verge of losing their eternal life because of a compromising, complacent, and lazy attitude toward the things of God and their calling. What a terrible accusation from our Lord and Savior. Those of Sardis have a reputation for being alive; however, they are in fact already spiritually dead.

[b]Few from Sardis will pass the test of persecution, because they are lazy and uninspired by the awesome opportunity that they have been given to be among the first of humanity to enter the Family and Kingdom of God as immortal sons of God the Father. The elect of Sardis still have hope of obtaining salvation, if they will only repent and endure to the end with a righteous attitude. [/b]

#6 [b][color=0033FF]Philadelphia [/color][/b]

Only one of the seven groupings of God's elect children is used by Jesus to carry out the final dynamic preaching of the gospel. Although others of the elect may be given awesome gifts from God to work great miracles and perform a great witness, those of Philadelphia seem to be the only ones who are empowered with the gifts shown in 1Corinthians 12:4-11, and Romans 12:6-8, in order to reach out to the world as a whole, both within the body of the elect and through world-wide evangelism:

7. And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
8. I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

Notice the emphasis upon having kept Christ's word and not denying Christ's name. In the Greek language, the verbs are in the aorist tense, which describes a definite, specific act in the past. The implication is that there has been some particular spiritual trial out of which those of Philadelphia have emerged victorious. It is for this reason that God uses and empowers them to perform a great work for him in the end of the age.

Part of the reward for having the Philadelphia attitude and behavior is to be given an extremely prominent position in the Family and Kingdom of God: a position worthy of great respect and honor:

9. Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. 10. Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11. Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Only those with the Philadelphia attitude and behavior are given a significant measure of protection by God. This does not mean that they are totally free from persecution or even martyrdom, but of all God’s children, they are the only ones who have major protection promised to them in order for them to proclaim the Good News of the coming Kingdom of God, whereas the rest of God's elect children will be severely reprimanded by Jesus Christ through the word of God and the persecution by Satan and the world at large in order to try, purify, perfect, and save them from eternal death.

12. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
13. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

[b]Those of Philadelphia may only have a little strength, their resources and numbers may be small, but they are faithful to God and his plan for the salvation of humanity. Notice, Jesus also said that they have kept his commandments; therefore, he will keep them. They are keeping God's word, the word of endurance. Those of Philadelphia try hard to practice the kind of endurance that Jesus Christ displayed. They are people who do not compromise; they endure and firmly keep in mind the goal that God has for them and humanity.[/b]

[b]A Warning [/b]
Those of the Philadelphia attitude and behavior are the only ones who have a completely positive description. They are faithfully keeping the word of God, they are not denying Jesus' name, and they are enduring patiently with persistence. Because of this, they are promised special protection against Satan in order to do a mighty work for God, yet there is a serious warning within the message to them.
Jesus Christ warns them to hold on to what they have, so that no one takes their crown. This is not an issue of theft; it is an issue of becoming unworthy to wear the crown. Jesus gives responsibilities, opportunities, and physical and spiritual gifts to each of the elect of his Father. If a person performs their responsibility, seizes the opportunity, and properly uses the gifts they have been given, they will be rewarded accordingly; they have a crown reserved for them to wear in the Family and Kingdom of God. But, if they prove themselves unfit, Jesus will give their task to someone else and they will lose their reward and perhaps their eternal life.

[b]Seize the Moment[/b]
It is very clear that God wants all the elect to serve him in various ways. The point is that God watches for individuals and even groups of individuals who will take hold of a particular opportunity to serve him. If they act, God uses them in that responsibility. God the Father and Jesus look at each of those who have been called to salvation as individuals and, if they as individuals will seize the moment and take action, God will use them in his great and awesome plan for the salvation of humanity.
From what is written about the church of Philadelphia, it seems that this group of people are in the forefront of proclaiming the gospel message. Because they have a correct attitude toward God and are actively performing the task that they have been given, they receive no correction from Christ. In fact, they are spared from the hour of trial that comes upon the whole earth and will receive an incredibly awesome reward for their diligence.

#7[b][color=0033FF] Laodicea[/color][/b]

14. And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; these things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15. I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Of all the seven congregational groupings of God's elect directly spoken to by Jesus Christ, this group is the most pointedly condemned. They are neither faithful nor unbelieving; rather, they are completely indifferent. Their indifference to God's truth is sickening to Jesus. The Laodiceans are so self-satisfied that they think everything is fine and that they are doing great works. They view themselves as the recipients of great spiritual understanding, but they have practically none.

17. Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18. I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

Here, we see a people who are so apathetic and lazy because of their perceived knowledge and spirituality that they are in danger of being cast away from God. They are self-deceived into thinking that they are spiritually rich; however, they are not. Christ is giving them their last opportunity to repent and become zealous for God. If these people will hear and heed what he is saying, he will again establish fellowship with them. If not, they will be cast into the Lake of Fire with the unrepentant wicked.

Christ is searching for people that want him and his Father to be a major part of their life. He says he is at the door knocking, hoping the wayward elect will let him back into their hearts and minds. But he will not force his way into their lives. These individuals have to make a decision to repent of their nauseating quality of being spiritually lukewarm, self-satisfied, complacent, and in need of nothing.
Their indifference has left them self-deluded and they do not realize they are spiritually poor, miserable, wretched, blind, and naked. Those who lead such a people and do not themselves repent are in deep trouble. Those individuals have an attitude of having it made, but have no real commitment for spiritual growth. They feel secure as long as they associate with a particular group (i.e., success by association). That kind of attitude leads to indifference and complacency, which Christ severely rebukes. He will bring fiery trials in order to bring those with such an attitude to genuine repentance

19. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20. Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

The Greek word 'elegchein', which is used in connection with the rebuke of those with the Laodicean attitude, means a severe rebuke that compels a person to see the error of their ways. Christ is showing, in an extremely strong way, that some of the elect who are in this decadent condition can expect extremely severe trials that come directly from him.

Because of their self-righteous attitudes, Jesus says they will be tried in fire. A Laodicean needs a major attitude adjustment in order for him to be used by God, and allowed to enter the Father's Family and Kingdom. This is why Jesus has to deal so severely with them. God the Father and his son are extremely merciful. If a Laodicean repents, he will be forgiven and welcomed into the Family and Kingdom of God:

21.To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

[b][color=0033FF]Summary
The messages to the seven churches are not only meant to be a severe reprimand from Christ, but are also meant to give hope and encouragement. For those who do not heed these warnings, there is death and dishonor ahead. For those who heed them, there is eternal life and immortality in the Family and Kingdom of God.

God the Father and Jesus Christ are in the process of molding the body of the sons of God for an awesome and dynamic spiritual work to be done at the end of this age. But not everyone that is called to this dynamic work will be in one united congregation. There are seven distinct groupings of the elect shown to exist during the times just prior to Christ's return.
Because each of us stands or falls to a certain degree based on our association with other people, each of us needs to recognize if we have any of the unrighteous attitudes, behaviors, and characteristics that Jesus warns the seven churches about. We also need to recognize if we are associating with individuals or congregations of God that exhibit these unrighteous traits. Because, if we do not recognize these things in time and take the appropriate action to repent and remove ourselves from sinful people who refuse to change their ways, we will find ourselves in jeopardy of losing our own salvation and we will be the recipients of strong correction from Christ in the form of severe persecution.

A Time of Great Trouble

Any of the elect of God who are alive during the time of the end and who think that they will live out their lives in peaceful co-existence with non-believers while Jesus Christ pours out the wrath of God upon a wicked and rebellious world are not in touch with reality.
The battle lines have already been drawn, the hour of conflict is set, and the warning messages to the seven churches shows that unrighteous attitudes and behavior have rendered all but one-seventh of the elect of God ill-equipped and unfit for spiritual battle.

It seems that only a few of the elect understand the seriousness of the times that we live in and the things that God the Father and Jesus Christ require of them. Most of the elect think everything is just fine. But things are not just fine; this is why Jesus will pour out his wrath on all but one- seventh of those of his church. Make no mistake, Jesus would much rather see those who need to repent do so without having to be corrected through trial and persecution. However, because Jesus loves us deeply, he will attempt to shake the lazy, the lethargic, and the sinful out of their sleep of death with strong persecution and trials of fire, in the hope that they will awaken to their terminal condition and repent.

The Core Issue

In today's world, the elect are continually bombarded with evil from the world around them. Many have allowed themselves to become influenced by wrong values and have compromised themselves and become blind to their sins.
It is easy to see how wrong attitudes, behaviors, and characteristics of the seven ancient churches of Asia mentioned in Revelation exist within various individuals and congregations of God scattered throughout the earth today. We can almost say, in a sense, that the die is already cast and that birds of a feather have flocked together. It is also easy to see why these attitudes and behaviors bring severe correction upon God's people from Jesus Christ who is the head of the church.

Separate from the World

Although all seven churches suffer great persecution for the truth that they believe and practice, the general admonition to all of God's people is to come out of and remain separate from the things of the world that can pollute one spiritually:

" 3. For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
4. And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues." (Revelation 18:3-4).

Because of the increased activity of evil spirits during the time of the end, there will be great religious confusion (especially concerning the teachings of the Bible). As people become more and more confused as to what is right and wrong, God's people who are not diligent in their pursuit of righteousness will be drawn into evil behavior and compromising attitudes; thereby, they will lose the love and zeal that they once had for God.

Jesus often spoke to the disciples about the need to perform the task that they had been given concerning the gospel and the persecution and rewards associated with its proclamation:
" 34. And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
35. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
36. For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? 37. Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? 38. Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
" (Mark 8:34-38). See also 1Peter 3:14-17.

It is sad to say that of the seven church groups noted in the Book of Revelation that exists today, only one is found to be totally committed to the Father and Jesus Christ and their ways. The other six are in varying degrees of rebellion and disobedience to the Father and Jesus Christ and the truth of God. Make no mistake, the Father and Jesus Christ are solidly against the tolerance of evil. They want the elect to either repent and remove the evil from among them or remove themselves from the evil.
During these times before Christ's return, there are two primary questions that each of us who is a son of God needs to answer in reference to the messages in chapters two and three of Revelation:

1.\tIs God the Father's calling to be part of his family and the kingdom of priests truly my first priority?
2.\tAm I going to be responsible for my life and my conduct and consistently strive to overcome my faults through the spiritual power that God has made available for me to draw upon?
Jesus said:

" 29. And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,
30. But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life." (Mark 10:29-30).

Terrifying and dynamic things are going to occur in the world during the proclaiming of the Father's good news to humanity just before Jesus Christ's return as the conquering King of kings. The elect need to heed the warning:

"He that has an ear, let him hear what the spirit (Jesus Christ) says to the churches "

The eternal destiny of each individual whom the Father has called to salvation and that is alive at this time hangs in the balance. Be a person who has an ear to hear what Jesus Christ is saying to all the Father's elect children. If your heart is right with God, you do not need to fear a severe reprimand from Christ, nor should you be anxious about your salvation.

May our God help each of us to contemplate the seriousness of the messages to the seven churches and heed the reprimands and warnings that have been given to us in them, so that we may be overcomers and inherit the awesome rewards and promises made to us by God the Father and Jesus Christ. [/color][/b]

Sincerely,

Walter


Jesus-is-GOD wrote:
How the bulk of your post pertains to eschatology I don't put together. These things are true but do not cancel out HIS WORD from the O.T. to the End.

I'm not a debater. My only purpose for staying with this thread is because I believe we are closer to "those days" then the Great majority realize.

My heart is troubled and I'll admit - worried for those who I love because they name His Name, that they will not know anti-Christ when he is revealed because they were taught that they'd be gone before his being revealed to those with understanding and know to "watch", nor do they see that we are already well into "that generation" - since Israel was declared a nation, By the United Nations in 1948 by aid of the Balfour Declaration which came from the letter to Lord Rothchild years before.

That's my 'brief' because I'm off to church.

GOD Bless today.

S
sermonindex

This is a very short youtube posted by SermonIndex of Paul Washer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7UyZYpeReY&NR=1


Thank you Walter. I'm going to copy your post and take my time enjoying it. GOD Bless you.

L
Lysa

waltern wrote:
[b][color=990000]How often do we find the "Church" metioned in the Book of Revelation? In the first three chapters we read about the Church in great detail.

Then, at the beginning of chapter 4 we read the following:

Revelation 4

1. After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.[/color][/b]

Then, after Chapter 4, we find the following in references to the "Church".


Chapter 5--no Church on the earth
Chapter 6--no Church on the earth
Chapter 7---no Church on the earth.


Waltern,

Do you follow Revelation chronologically?

If you do, then perhaps the church is not mentioned on the earth because it was before God created man because Satan didn't get thrown out of heaven until Revelation of chapter 12..

[i]And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.[/i]
Rev 12.9

S
sermonindex

To Lysa:

Satan and his demons (fallen angels) have had access to earth since the beginning, in the garden. At the same time they also have access to heaven.

Satan being cast out of heaven with 1/3 of the angels is a future event, that is prophesized in Revelation 12.

How do wo know that Satan has access to heaven today? We know that today Satan is the accuser of the brethren, in heaven. Everytime we sin, He is in heaven, accusing us to the father. Let's look at the Book of Job, and we find the following:

Job 1:6-12
6. Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and [b]Satan came also among them.[/b]
7. And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. 8. And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
9. Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
10. Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.11. But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. 12. And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord.

Jesus has told us that the wheat (Saved) and the tares (the lost) have to live together on the earth, until the time of the harvest. He has explained to us that the [b]Kingdom of Heaven[/b] is likened unto what we are going through down here on earth. We go to Church, where the sheep and the goats are in attendance. However, the Goats masquearade themselves as sheep. There is a time coming, that is prophesized in Rev 12 where the goats will be separated from the sheep, and cast into the fire.

(Matthew 13:24-30)

24.Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25. But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28. He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29. But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

So today, you and I (who are saved)live on the earth with the lost. Also, in heaven, Satan & his fallen angels still have access to heaven, and they still have access to earth. Not until the great tribulation will God cast Satan and his fallen angels out of heaven and onto the earth, and lock them out, thus separating them from heaven, and casting them to earth.

Likewise, we, who are saved, will continue to live with the lost, and not until God's appointed time will he separate the sheep from the Goats. The sheep will go to his right, and the goats to His the left. The sheep will go into everlasting life with God, and the goats will be cast into the fire, with Satan & his fallen angels.

In the Bible, many times we read something and we think that it is a past event,and has already occurred. However, if God is the one who is doing the talking, many times He speaks as if events have alreay taken place. Why does He do this? Because what God wills, what God says, is sure, and will happen at His appointed time, and is a done deal.

One example:
Revelation 13:8
8. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life [b]of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.[/b]

If we didn't know any better, we would think that Jesus Christ was slain for our sin from the foundation of the World.


But, if we go to the book of Genesis, we find that God prophesizes that the seed of the woman (Jesus Christ) would die on the cross, and that in doing so, he would bruise Satan's head. In the serpent, the poison is located in the head.

Genesis 3:15
15. And I will put enmity between thee (Satan) and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed (Women do not have seed, men have seed); it (Jesus Christ- the Seed of the woman) shall bruise thy head, and thou (Satan) shalt bruise his (Christs) heel.

Only in crucifixion does the heel become bruised. As the one on the cross pushes against the cross with his foot, nailed closest to the cross, in order to breath, the heel becomes tremendously bruised.

[b]This was fulfilled on Passover, on the 14th of Nissan, in 33 AD. Jesus was placed on the cross at the 3rd hour, the time of the morning sacrifice (9:00 A.M.) and gave up the ghost at the 9th hour (3:00 P.M. However, God speaks of this as taking place before the world began![/b]

Another example
2 Timothy 1:9-10
9. Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace,[b] which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, [/b] 10. But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:


Another example:
1 Cor 2:6-16

6. Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:[b] 7. But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:[/b]
8. Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9. But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.


Hope this helps!


Sincerely,

Walter


Lysa wrote:
waltern wrote:
[b][color=990000]How often do we find the "Church" metioned in the Book of Revelation? In the first three chapters we read about the Church in great detail.

Then, at the beginning of chapter 4 we read the following:

Revelation 4

1. After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.[/color][/b]

Then, after Chapter 4, we find the following in references to the "Church".


Chapter 5--no Church on the earth
Chapter 6--no Church on the earth
Chapter 7---no Church on the earth.


Waltern,

Do you follow Revelation chronologically?

If you do, then perhaps the church is not mentioned on the earth because it was before God created man because Satan didn't get thrown out of heaven until Revelation of chapter 12..

[i]And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.[/i]
Rev 12.9

S
sermonindex


GUESS IF YOU ARE A FELLOW BROTHER OR SERVANT OF GOD YOU ARE DEFFENTNTLY NOT A PART OF THE CHURCH BECAUSE THE CHURCH TOOK THE EASY WAY OUT IN CHAPTER 4.

REV.6:9
9When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" 11Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their FELLOW SERVANTS AND BROTHERS who were to be killed as they had been was completed.

SEALED FOR THE DAY OF REDEMPTION

REV. 7:1-4

1After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, HAVING THE SEALS OF THE LIVING GOD. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3"Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God." 4Then I heard the number of those who were sealed:

DON’T GREAVE THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD WHICH YOU WERE SEALED WITH FOR THE DAY OF REDEMPTION.

REV.9:4


They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people WHO DID NOT HAVE THE SEAL OF GOD on their foreheads.


REV.11:4-6

4These are the two olive trees and the two lamp stands that stand before the Lord of the earth. 5If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. 6These men have power to shut up the sky so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.


REV.11:12


12Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.

I GUESS IT IS JUST FREEK ACTSEDENT THAT THE TWO GREAT PROPHETS ARE BEING CALLED AND ASCEND INTO HEAVEN AT THE 7TH OR LAST TRUMPET.


The Seventh Trumpet
15The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:
"The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ,

I GUESS THE FACT THE BIBLE SAYS THAT CHRIST TAKES POSSESSION OF THE WORLD AND THE 7TH OR LAST TRUMPET ALL HAPPEN AT THE SAME TIME AND THE TWO LAMP STANDS THAT ARE BEFORE THE LORD ARE CALLED UP TO HEAVEN BUT ARE DEFIANTLY NOT THE CHURCH BECAUSE YOU SAW THE CHURCH GO IN CHAPTER 4 WHEN THE SCRIPTURE CLEARLY SAYS IT WAS TALKING TO JOHN

REV.4:1-2

1After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this." 2AT ONCE I WAS IN THE SPIRIT THAT IS JOHN!!!!!!!!!!


TO SAY THAT THE CHURCH IS CALLED UP AT THIS TIME IS FALSE DOCTRINE…………

REV. 12:5

5She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his THRONE.

WAIT; IS THIS THE BIRTH OF CHRIST? WAS HE A PART OF THE CHURCH??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????


REV.12:11
11They overcame him
by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony;
they did not love their lives so much
as to shrink from death.


OH! THESE WEAK WILLED PEOPLE SURLY ARE NOT THE CHURCH BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT COUNTED WORTHY TO ESCAPE.


I GUESS THAT IF PAUL, PETER, JOHN, STEVEN, ECT. WOULD HAVE BEEN COUNTED WORTHY THEY COULD HAVE ESCAPED TOO?????????????

REV.12:17
17Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring-THOSE WHO OBEYED GOD’S COMMANDMENTS and HOLD TO THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST.


WELL WE KNOW THIS CAN’T BE THE CHURCH BECAUSE THEY OBEY THE COMMANDMENTS AND HOLD TO THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS. WE ALL KNOW THE CHURCH PREACHES AN EASY GOSPEL THAT BUILDS LARGE CONGREGATIONS.

EVERY BODY WANTS TO GO TO HEAVEN BUT NOBODY WANTS TO DIE. THE ALTER IS A PLACE OF DEATH LET THOSE WHO ARE NOT WILLING TO PAY THE PRICE LEAVE IT ALONE!!!!!!!

REV.13:9-10
9He who has an ear, let him hear.
10If anyone is to go into captivity,
into captivity he will go.
If anyone is to be killed[c] with the sword,
with the sword he will be killed. This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints.

WELL WE KNOW THIS IS NOT THE CHURCH BECAUSE IT CALLES THEM SAINTS AND THEY WERE NOT COUNTED WORTHY TO ESCAPE.

OH ALSO WHEN IT SAYS IF ANYONE HAS AN EAR THAT IS NOT REALLY FOR THE CHURCH BECAUSE WE WILL NOT BE HERE.

REV.14:1

1Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads


AND WE ALL KNOW THAT THE ELECT ARE NOT THE CHURCH BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT COUNTED WORTHY TO ESCAPE.

REV.14:4
They were purchased from among men and offered as FIRST FRUITS to God and the Lamb

FIRST FRUITS OF WHAT?

REV.14:12
12This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.


WE KNOW THIS IS NOT THE CHURCH BECAUSE THE CHURCH LEFT. PLUS THE SCRIPTURES ALL TELL US GOD DOESN’T WANT HIS PEOPLE TO LEARN PATIENT ENDURANCE THREW SUFFERING. HE WANTS US TO TAKE THE EASY WAY. THE ONE THAT DOESN’T HURT.


REV. 14:13
13Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on."
"Yes," says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them."
THAT DOESN’T SOUND LIKE THE BLESSING I HEARD IN CHURCH I MUST BE MISS INTERPRETING SOMETHING.


REV.14:14-20
The Harvest of the Earth
14I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one "like a son of man"[a] with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, "Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe." 16So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.
17Another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. 18Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, "Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth's vine, because its grapes are ripe." 19The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God's wrath. 20They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses' bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia.[b]

I WONDER WHAT HE IS HARVESTING? WELL IT CAN’T BE THE CHURCH THEY LEFT IN CHAPTER 4

I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.


I WONDER WHY HE DIDN’T MENTION THE CHURCH THAT WAS COUNTED WORTHY TO ESCAPE, THE BRIDE THAT WAS GATHERED; IN STEAD OF THESE THAT DIED IN TRIBULATIONS SHOULDN’T JESUS REALLY BE MORE CONCERNED ABOUT THE BRIDE THAT HE GATHERED BEFORE THE TRIBULATION. I KNOW HOW I TREAT MY BRIDE. I WOULD NEVER, NEVER ACKNOWLEDGE SOME ONE ELSE OVER MY BRIDE.


GIVE ME A BREAK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

2009/5/10 23:02


S
sermonindex

WALTERN MOSES AND ELIJAH WERE THE TWO AT THE TRANSFIGURATION AND MOSES WAS ALSO THE ONE WHO TURNED THE WATER TO BLOOD AND STRUCK THE LAND WITH PLAGUES.

L
Lysa

waltern wrote:
To Lysa:

Satan and his demons (fallen angels) have had access to earth since the beginning, in the garden. At the same time they also have access to heaven.

Satan being cast out of heaven with 1/3 of the angels is a future event, that is prophesized in Revelation 12.

...

Hope this helps!


Sorry but it really doesn't help. I wasn't interested in satan's access to heaven, I KNOW he has access to heaven. Having a access "to" and inhabiting (living there) are two entirely different scenarios.

The first time he had access to heaven, he lived there and he has only been cast out of heaven once. The second time he is cast out is here:

[i]And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.[/i]
Rev 20.10

Question: What is future event is this prophesying about? Because the rest of chapter 12 talks about church and his persecution of the saints.

[i]And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.[/i]

Rev 12.15-16

Do you or do you not believe that Revelation happens chronologically?

S
sermonindex


To Lysa:

Actually, let's look at the following for a clearer picture:

(Rev 12:10-17)
10. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13. And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14. And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


[b]This future event is all about God's protection of Israel, during the last 1/2 of the Great Tribulation, as well as satans attack of Christians after the Jews are protected by God.[/b]

[b]Verse 10[/b] refers to Satan finally being cast down to the earth. Verse 11 refers to the Jews who have come to belief in Messiah, during the Tribulation. [b]Verse 12[/b] refers to Israel, the woman, who brought forth Jesus Christ, the man child, the seed of the woman. [b]Verse 13[/b] refers to Satan attacking the Jews who came to belief in Messiah. [b]Verse 14[/b] refers to God's supernatural intervention for the believing Jews, and how He will protect them for the last 3 1/2 years of the Great Tribulation [b](many Bible scholars believe that Petra is the most probable place where the Jews will be protected--God will protect the saved Jews for the rest of the 3 1/2 years of the Great Tribulation)[/b]. [b]Verse 15[/b], Satan sends a flood upon the saved Jews. [b]Verse 16.[/b] God intervenes, and opens up the earth, so that the water will not drown the saved Jews.[b][color=990000] Verse 17 refers to Satan THEN going to make war with the "rest" of the seed of the woman, which are Gentiles, who came to belief in Jesus Christ, during the Great Tribulation.[/color][/b]


Sincerely,

Walter


Lysa wrote:
waltern wrote:
To Lysa:

Satan and his demons (fallen angels) have had access to earth since the beginning, in the garden. At the same time they also have access to heaven.

Satan being cast out of heaven with 1/3 of the angels is a future event, that is prophesized in Revelation 12.

...

Hope this helps!


Sorry but it really doesn't help. I wasn't interested in satan's access to heaven, I KNOW he has access to heaven. Having a access "to" and inhabiting (living there) are two entirely different scenarios.

The first time he had access to heaven, he lived there and he has only been cast out of heaven once. The second time he is cast out is here:

[i]And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.[/i]
Rev 20.10

Question: What is future event is this prophesying about? Because the rest of chapter 12 talks about church and his persecution of the saints.

[i]And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.[/i]

Rev 12.15-16

Do you or do you not believe that Revelation happens chronologically?


S
sermonindex

To demoney:

Yes, Moses was at the Transfiguration, however Moses died a natural death, while Enoch and Elijah did not. They must die like the rest of us, in order to receive their new resurrected bodies. Their deaths will occur during the Tribulation, and their bodies will be in the streets for 3 days, until they are resurrected in their new bodies, and go up to heaven so that they can return with Jesus & HIS SAINTS at the 2nd coming! (they will not be stuck under the altar, waiting for their new glorified bodies, like all those who will be martyred during the Tribulation)

Moses has already died, and will receive his new body at the Rapture, before the seven year Tribulation. Moses will be one of those that are "dead in Christ" that accompany Jesus Christ from heaven, and will receive their new bodies first, while we, who are still living, will receive ours second. We will receive them in the air,and return to heaven for the next seven years, when we will return with Messiah, to rule and reign with Him for 1,000 years.

Sincerley,

Walter


dmoney wrote:
WALTERN MOSES AND ELIJAH WERE THE TWO AT THE TRANSFIGURATION AND MOSES WAS ALSO THE ONE WHO TURNED THE WATER TO BLOOD AND STRUCK THE LAND WITH PLAGUES.

L
Lysa

Walter,

Well, this is why we disagree, brother! You are pre-trib and I am not!

I'm at work and cannot write no more; so let's agree to disagree, shall we?!

You know my stance.

God bless you,

S
sermonindex


Thank you for being honest, Lysa.


God bless,

Walter


Lysa wrote:
Walter,

Well, this is why we disagree, brother! You are pre-trib and I am not!

I'm at work and cannot write no more; so let's agree to disagree, shall we?!

You know my stance.

God bless you,

S
sermonindex


To damoney:

Please, don't let Scripture get in the way of what you believe. You are bound and determined to go through the Great Tribulation, and I surely do not want to rain on your parade.

May God Bless you damoney

Walter


dmoney wrote:

GUESS IF YOU ARE A FELLOW BROTHER OR SERVANT OF GOD YOU ARE DEFFENTNTLY NOT A PART OF THE CHURCH BECAUSE THE CHURCH TOOK THE EASY WAY OUT IN CHAPTER 4.

REV.6:9
9When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" 11Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their FELLOW SERVANTS AND BROTHERS who were to be killed as they had been was completed.

DELETED



C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Lysa…


ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
I wonder just how many divisive doctrinal disputes might be solved if people would just confess that they aren't 100% completely sure about an issue that isn't entirely spelled out by the Word of God.
________________________________________

That would be wonderful if this were true but as human beings, we DO tend to say we are not 100% sure but true to our human form, we usually always finish the conversation or post with exactly what it is that we are unsure about (the side we "lean" heavily toward)!! >huge grin< We just set what it is that we are "unsure" about in cement when we do that.

The difference between the two is that one admits that they are uncertain about something while the other pushes their view as if it were the only one that matters.

What is wrong with learning each possible alternative in regard to Bible prophecy? Can’t we teach our view as a [u]possibility[/u]? We can all agree that we must be prepared for anything. Yet this doesn’t seem “good enough” because many post-tribulation believers tend to speak as if they are worried that those of us who lean toward a “gathering of the Bride” before the wrath of God might actually bow down to the Anti-Christ. How ridiculous is that? If we are prepared for both life and death…suffering and a wedding…tribulation and a gathering…how can someone claim that we will not recognize the Anti-Christ?

As you can imagine, it does appear condescending to those of us who do not buy into a post-tribulation doctrine. (Disclaimer: I am not saying that you said or talk like this, Lysa.)


You do it too! It's human nature.
Yes, it is human nature. Is it part of a sinful nature? If so, we need to deal with it. I have been just as guilty of it before. However, I have attempted to make such a distinction between FACT and OPINION for several years. That is all that I am asking. When we make concessions to the fact that we might not be right, we are much more patient and far less irritably obstinate to those with whom we disagree.

I have stated that I wasn't certain but I do not think it is relevant to continually say this in every post; matter of fact, to me, it's redundant to keep saying it over and over and over. To me, this is why I'm in the discussion (and it's not to agree with you or anyone else)! LOL

Do you not know my position when I post? Yes, so I also do not believe that I should have to include my leanings every single time - you know what they are. I try to debate the matter at hand. One comment that I am wondering about... to keep it short and sweet! You could cut your posts in half if you took out all your uncertainties and stating your leanings!! [Just an observation, do what you feel compelled to do!!]

Why do we need to debate it? Is it to try and convince someone of something? Or is it to learn…encourage…inform (about ALL possibilities)…and strengthen the brethren? Or are we simply trying to assert how “right” we are? Just another observation – but it seems that many of the post-trib brethren don’t care about anything anyone else has to say. I know that this may be an observation…but it strikes to the heart of what I feel. I can point out my perspective…those “leanings” that you seem to think are funny…but I sense that they will be mostly disregarded by people who are already “sure” of how the end will come about.

In the end, I am not saying that I am certain about this matter. I am saying that I don’t know if we can even BE certain. In fact, I think that it is unwise to form a concrete opinion in this matter…when the Scriptures themselves seem to indicate that the matter isn’t entirely indicative about just how the end will come about. In the past, post-trib brethren have indicated that they believe me to be sincere…but that I am just not studying this well enough to “see the truth.”

I am a believer. I love God with everything inside of me. I have known Him since I was a teenager. I have read the Word of God more times than I can count…with a desire to know Him more from such study. I am a fairly intelligent person. I enjoy learning…especially about the things of God. Yet I have heard and studied the argument for a post-tribulation (I prefer to call it “post-wrath”) coming of the Lord. I am not a novice at studying. I look at the arguments that are presented…and have studied them thoroughly…to find truth (because truth is often presented on every side of a debate). Ultimately, I haven’t seen anything that could convince me to accept the post-trib view as anything but an opinion.

To make it clear: I feel the same way about [i]pre-wrath[/i]. While I lean toward this view from the accumulation of what I have learned, I am quite aware (in my thoughts AND in my posts) that there are alternative times and manners in which the Lord may return. I simply feel that a discussion would not be so hotly debated if we presented our views and findings without trying to convince someone else of the “error” of their thinking. In many of these discussions, that is what it feels like.


But believe me, brother, if I ever change back to pre-trib, you and everyone else will be the first to know!! I will shout it from the roof tops as I shout that I believe we will be here!

Sister, you are mistaken if I would even want you to shout a “pre-trib” view from the rooftops. In fact, I don’t think that EITHER (or more correctly, ANY) view should be “shouted.” All that we should be shouting, in my opinion, is that people need to be ready to meet their maker. Please don’t take this wrong…but I nearly do not even care how the Lord will return. I simply want to be with Jesus. If I have to suffer through the period of God’s wrath…then so be it! If I am taken before God pours out that wrath…then so be it! The decision is not mine to make. I wouldn’t second guess God for a minute…if it was clear from His Word. Yet nothing has been presented that would make me ultimately believe one way or the other.

So what do I believe? Ultimately, I don’t think that we should have a “concrete” or “set in stone” opinion of this matter. Why? The Scriptures are obviously not “clear enough” to cause all sincere believers to have the same perspective on this matter. However, this raises the question of what is actually important.

I think that we should be prepared. We should be prepared for suffering (as we should have ALWAYS been prepared). We should be prepared for tribulation (as we should have ALWAYS been prepared). We should be prepared to be ready for the end (even if it were to come suddenly…via a sudden gathering of the Bride at a time when we “think not” or by a sudden burst of tribulation. I believe that we should be prepared to suffer through immense tribulations and persecutions…and to also be prepared for a potential sudden coming of Christ.

For most ideas about the “hour of great tribulation,” I think that post-trib, mid-trib and pre-trib folks are agreed. The different, I think, is in regard to whether or not the Bride of Christ will suffer through the wrath of God. Some of us lean toward a gathering of the Bride before God pours out His wrath. Some of us lean toward a belief that the Bride of Christ will be protected throughout that wrath that will be poured over all the earth. Some of us lean toward a belief that the Bride of Christ may actually suffer and die from God’s wrath. It is funny that two of these notions are similar. Many of those who lean toward a “post-trib” perspective actually lean toward the idea that God will protect believers from the wrath of God by helping them to supernaturally avoid the effects of the bowls, seals and trumpets (etc…). Those who lean toward a “rapture” lean toward the idea that God will protect the Bride by gathering Her together before that wrath is dispensed. Each believes in protection of God’s people. That is what concerns me when I hear the accusation that “pre-trib” believers want to escape the tribulations and persecutions of mankind simply because they lean toward a notion that Christ will gather His Bride before that wrath is dispensed.


Do you know what is certain? When I see a new tribulation title in the discussion thread, I know I will see one or many postings by ccchhhrrriiisss, waltern and others for pre-trib! It's a given! I smile to myself and say, "Here we go again!" We banter about this back and forth! It is usually not personal but some make it that way. If you do not see a post from me in the trib section.. you should KNOW I am not able to get to a computer! LOL Would the same apply to you?
Once again, if you think that I am “for pre-trib,” you are incorrect. I do not defend the notion of pre-trib…but the right of believers to hold to lean toward such a position. If there were some people acting the same way toward post-trib, I would likely defend their right to lean in such a direction as well. In fact, I have had discussions with pre-trib folks who have gotten angry that I have defended the right of post-trib to lean in such a direction. I simply believe that the Word is not entirely clear on this matter. If you go back several years and read each of my posts on this matter, I think that you will find that I am not promoting the pre-trib view as much as defending the legitimacy of such a view from those who promote the alternative. It just seems that there is a tendency (correct or incorrect) of certain individuals to promote their view as if it were “truth” or the only one that matters.

Brother, I love you in Christ. I do not get offended one iota at your belief, I accept your belief (I don't understand it sometimes but I accept it and you).

I just think it's redundant to always (in every post) to post a disclaimer that "the reason I am arguing/debating this position is because I'm not quite sure I'm right." (tongue-in-cheek) Now really, does make any sense? LOLOLOLOL

Sometimes, however, I think that you might misunderstand just what my “belief” is. My belief is that I simply [b]don’t know[/b]. I don’t know for certain just HOW and WHEN the Lord shall return. I might lean toward the notion that Christ will gather His Bride before God’s wrath is poured out upon the entire world…but that is not a belief. It is simply a plurality of weight given to a possible scenario. However, I “believe” that any outcome is possible.

This type of statement is not redundant, because there will always be someone (on any side of an argument) who will propagate their view as if it were “Gospel truth.” When I began writing my Master’s thesis and my doctoral dissertation, I was instructed to make a [u]clear[/u] distinction between fact and opinion. In fact, I was instructed to do this for every fact and every opinion…in order to separate such things. Facts must be distinguished by credible citations. Otherwise, the lack of such a citation…or the formulation of an opinion based upon a set of cited facts…amounts to an opinion that must be indicated as such. If anything, my “defense” is not against a pro-trib scenario or for a pre-trib scenario…but against the notion that this matter is settled because a few believe that it is so. If we could just season our posts with the knowledge of our own cognitive limitations, I think that we would be much better off.

Anyway, I hesitated on how to present my response to your post. I still don’t know what to even think of Savannah’s post. It’s just that I don’t want you to think that my responses are directed at you (or anyone in particular). Rather, I just want to clarify that there are many of us who have studied this issue…at length…through prayer…and still cannot embrace the post-trib mindset. At the same time, I haven’t embraced the pre-trib mindset either.

S
sermonindex


Matthew 11:7-14 (New International Version)
7As John's disciples were leaving, Jesus began to speak to the crowd about John: "What did you go out into the desert to see? A reed swayed by the wind? 8If not, what did you go out to see? A man dressed in fine clothes? No, those who wear fine clothes are in kings' palaces. 9Then what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and MORE THAN A PROPHET. 10This is the ONE about whom it is written:
" 'I will send my messenger AHEAD of you,
who will PREPARE THE WAY before you.'[a] 11I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there HAS NOT RISEN ONE GREATER THAN JOHN THE BAPTIST; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it. 13For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John. 14And IF you are WILLING to ACCEPT it, HE IS the ELIJAH who was to come.


I guess he did die after all.

1 Corinthians 15:50-53 (New International Version)
50I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.


If I am not mistaken these guys just got their immortal bodies and they did not die You are wrong. You do not have to die to receive your immortal body .This is false. You know I am not following this post because I want to be right. I just don’t want others including you to be wrong. Infact I WISH I WAS WRONG. To tell you the truth I really do not want to go threw the trib.The love of Jesus compels me to tell the truth even when it hurts because even though it hurts now in the end it will protect. You see if we believe a lie we have been taken captive and it is the Christian’s job to speak the truth in Love in the hopes people will escape the trap of the devil. Let’s look at the motivation I don’t even want to teach this message but I can not help it .Like Jeremiah it like fire shut up in my bones. I would much rather teach pre-trib. people don’t get angree when you teach pre-trib Post- trib. is a message that no one wants to hear. I pray to God that we don’t go threw the trib.because I know no self effort will get you threw it. Yet not my will but his. I believe what I feel in my spirit is the same thing Jesus felt when he told Peter what kind of death he would glorify God with. Jesus told Peter so he would be prepared, out of the motive of Love because Love always protects. Chris has said that we can not be certain. I am completely certain that the rapture accurse at the coming of the Lord and not so much because of my studies. Really the reason I am so sure is because the HOLY SPIRIT LED ME INTO THESE TRUTHS. About 1 year ago God began to speak to me about thing concerning the end times and for 1 year I have watched this thing unfold in front of me with precise detail, one after another. THE END IS UNFOLDING RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU EYES WHETHER YOU WANT TO BELEAVE IT OR NOT. I know this much even if I am not able to convince you right now you have heard enough that when the time comes you will not be caught off guard because I warned you. GOD BLESS YOU BROTHER.!!! I LOVE YOU IN THE LORD AND I WISH ALL MY PRE-TRIB. BROTHERS JARS FULL OF OIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

S
sermonindex

[b]A Crown - on That Day - of His Appearing -[/b]

Jam 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the [b]crown[/b] of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

1Pe 5:4 And when the chief Shepherd shall [u]appear[/u], ye shall receive[b] a crown[/b] of glory that fadeth not away.

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days; be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee [b]a crown[/b] of life.

Rev 3:11 Behold,[u] I come[/u] quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, [b]that no man take thy crown. [/b]

2Ti 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me [b]a crown[/b] of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, [u]shall give me at that day[/u] : and not to me only, but unto [u]all them also that love his Appearing.[/u] {Zechariah chpt. 14 alone mentions “that day” 7 times.}

[b]'That Day' in N.T. -[/b]

Matt. 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Matt. 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Matt. 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Mark 14:25 Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God.

Luke 10:12 But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.

Luke 17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

*Luke 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. Luke 21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

1Thess. 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

2Tim. 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

2Tim. 1:18 The Lord grant unto him that he may find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou knowest very well.

[b]"Appear - Appearing " [/b]

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

1Ti 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ

2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead AT his appearing and his kingdom

1Jn 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ

Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

2Ti 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day : and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his Appearing.

[b][A study on the words - "appear" - "appearing" - "revealed" - "come" and "coming" will prove out His one and only "Return".][/b]


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[b]2Th 1:4-10 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; and to you who are troubled rest with us, [u]when[/u] the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; [u]when[/u] he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Definition of "Tribulation"[/b] - G2347 θλίψις thlipsis thlip'-sis From G2346; pressure (literally or figuratively): - afflicted, (-tion), anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble.

[b] KJV Occurrences: [/b] - How and where used ---

tribulation, 18 - Mat_24:21 (2), Mat_24:29, Mar_13:24, Joh_16:33, Act_14:22, Rom_2:9, Rom_5:3, Rom_8:35, Rom_12:12, 2Co_7:4 (2), 2Th_1:6, Rev_2:9-10 (3), Rev_2:22, Rev_7:14

affliction, 11 - Mar_4:17, Mar_13:19, Act_7:11, 2Co_2:4, 2Co_4:17, 2Co_8:2, Phi_1:16, Phi_4:14, 1Th_3:6-7 (2), Jam_1:27

afflictions, 6 - Act_7:10, Act_20:23, 2Co_6:4, Col_1:24, 1Th_3:3, Heb_10:33

tribulations, 3 - Rom_5:3, Eph_3:13, 2Th_1:4

trouble, 3 - 1Co_7:28, 2Co_1:4, 2Co_1:8

afflicted, 1 - Mat_24:8-9 (2)

anguish, 1 - Joh_16:21

burdened, 1 - 2Co_8:13

persecution, 1 - Act_11:19

C
clintstone

Amen , Krispy . TRUST NO ONE , when it comes to doctrine . Doctrine proves itself, and everything else . The living Word is the great I AM . Clint

R
rbanks

This is a never ending debate concerning pre-trib. vs. post-trib. Most on here could very well be dead like many others already are before the great tribulation or the rapture actually takes place. There is not one of us who really knows when the Lord will return for his church but he has told us, “To them who look for Him will he return without sin unto salvation”. He also said “in an hour that we think not” and to be always ready for his coming.

He has told us in “Acts 1:7-8 (KJV) 7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.”

I believe we are to be about what He said instead of arguing about what He didn’t say. I desire to be continually filled with the Holy Ghost, no matter what lies ahead, so that I can be the witness that my Lord desires of me. If my Lord has me here during the great tribulation then my desire is to be so full of the Holy Ghost that I will be able to overcome all things by the blood of the lamb, the word of my testimony, and by loving not my life unto the death.

The very reason that I am not a post-trib believer, even though I don’t know for sure when He will actually come back, is because Jesus told me to always be ready and to pray that I maybe accounted worthy to escape all these things and to be able to stand before the son of man. He told me to look for and to expect his coming. I will not put a delayed time on his coming. If I was to say that I know Jesus will not come until after the great tribulation then I have delayed His coming and will not be watching like he said.

Blessings to all!

S
savannah

Quote from Walter:

"You are bound and determined to go through the Great Tribulation, and I surely do not want to rain on your parade."

The "Great Tribulation" has once again been brought to the forefront. It must be so as it is an integral part of the futurist theory. It(Great Tribulation)being just one massive link of the chain which binds the minds of many of dispensationalism's captives.

This one link just may let fall that great weight of error for some, when the Light pierces through it and shatters it.

May God be pleased to do so.

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor shall be.

When is "then" in this Word spoken by the Word made flesh?

And upon whom would this come?

Our answer to both these questions from Him Who spoke from Sinai!

Luke 21:20-22 But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Matthew 23:35-36 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

The saints of old testify to these truths as well.

Here are some of such testimony from our brothers in the faith of Christ:

"The forbearance of God with his covenant people, who had crucified their own Saviour, reached at last its limit. As many as could be saved in the usual way, were rescued. The mass of the people had obstinately set themselves against all improvement. James the Just, the man who was fitted, if any could be, to reconcile the Jews to the Christian religion, had been stoned by his hardened brethren, for whom he daily interceded in the temple; and with him the Christian community in Jerusalem had lost its importance for that city. The hour of the "great tribulation" and fearful judgment drew near. The prophecy of the Lord approached its literal fulfilment: Jerusalem was razed to the ground, the temple burned, and not one stone was left upon another."(Philip Schaff, 1877)

"For there shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." Read the record written by Josephus of the destruction of Jerusalem, and see how truly our Lord’s words were fulfilled. The Jews impiously said, concerning the death of Christ, "His blood be on us, and on our children." Never did any other people invoke such an awlful curse upon themselves, and upon no other nation did such a judgment ever fall. We read of Jews crucified till there was no more wood for making crosses; of thousands of the people slaying one another in their fierce faction fights within the city; of so many of them being sold for slaves that they became a drug in the market, and all but valueless; and of the fearful carnage when the Romans at length entered the doomed capital; and the blood-curdling story exactly bears out the Savior’s statement uttered nearly forty years before the terrible events occurred."
(C.H. Spurgeon, 1888)

"It is fitting to add to these accounts the true prediction of our Saviour in which he foretold these very events. His words are as follows: "Woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day; For there shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

"These things took place in this manner in the second year of the reign of Vespasian, in accordance with the prophecies of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, who by divine power saw them beforehand as if they were already present, and wept and mourned according to the statement of the holy evangelists, who give the very words which be uttered, when, as if addressing Jerusalem herself, he said: "If thou hadst known, even thou, in this day, the things which belong unto thy peace! But now they are hid from thine eyes. For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a rampart about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, and shall lay thee and thy children even with the ground."(Eusebius,AD 325)

"Note how this speech is directed against the Jews; for when these things were done by Vespasian, the Apostles could neither observe the Sabbath nor fly, seeing most of them were already dead, and those who survived were living in distant countries. And why they should pray for this He adds a reason, "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor shall be.

I ask the Jews, whence came upon them so grievous wrath from heaven more woeful than all that had come upon them before? Plainly it was because of the desperate crime and the denial of the Cross. But He shews that they deserved still heavier punishment than they received, when He adds, "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved;" that is, If the siege by the Romans should be continued longer, all the Jews would perish; for by "all flesh," He means all the Jewish nation, those within and those without; for the Romans were at war not only with those in Judaea, but with the whole race wherever dispersed.

Then, to show again the greatness of the calamity, He saith, "Pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day. For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world until now, neither shall be." Seest thou that His discourse is addressed to the Jews, and that He is speaking of the ills that should overtake them? For the apostles surely were not to keep the Sabbath day, neither to be there, when Vespasian did those things. For indeed the most part of them were already departed this life. And if any was left, he was dwelling then in other parts of the world.

And let not any man suppose this to have been spoken hyperbolically; but let him study the writings of Josephus, and learn the truth of the sayings. For neither can any one say, that the man being a believer, in order to establish Christ's words, hath exaggerated the tragical history. For indeed He was both a Jew, and a determined Jew, and very zealous, and among them that lived after Christ's coming. I should therefore be glad to inquire of the Jews. Whence came there thus upon them wrath from God intolerable, and more sore than all that had befallen aforetime, not in Judaea only, but in any part of the world? Is it not quite clear, that it was for the deed of the cross, and for this rejection? All would say it, and with all and before all the truth of the facts itself."
(Chrysostom, AD 347)

"Immediately after the great tribulation which is to accompany the catastrophe, or in those very days, the Son of man is to be seen coming in the clouds with great power and glory. His coming is described according to the Hebrew apocalyptic style; and then it is solemnly affirmed with an emphatic Amen or Verily, "This generation shall not pass away till all these things be accomplished " (Mark 13:30; Matt. 24:34; Luke 16:32). It would seem from all this that the occasion and scope of this prophecy are clear beyond controversy. It was preceded by many a word of rebuke and warning to the hypocritical scribes and Pharisees, and a terrible woe pronounced against Jerusalem, the murderess of saints and prophets. The time-limit so emphatically asserted accords perfectly with the assurance given on another occasion that some of those who listened to the great Teacher should not die till they had seen the Son of man coming in his kingdom." (Milton Terry, 1898)

"Was not the judgment and sad conflagration of Jerusalem, and destruction of the Jewish church and nation, an assurance of the judgment to come ; when the expressions whereby it is described are such as, you think, meant nothing else but that final judgment? As, ' Christ's coming: coming in clouds, in his glory, in his kingdom : — the day of the Lord; the great and terrible day of the Lord : — the end of the world ; the end of all things : — the sun darkened ; the moon not giving light: — the stars falling from heaven, and the powers of heaven shaken: —the sign of the Son of man appearing in heaven: — heaven departing as a scroll rolled together, and every mountain and hill removed out of its place,' &c. You would think, they meant nothing but the last and universal judgment; whereas their meaning, indeed, is Christ's coming in judgment and vengeance against the Jewish city and nation; but a fore-signification also of the last judgment...

That the destruction of Jerusalem is very frequently expressed in Scripture as if it were the destruction of the whole world, Deuteronomy 32:22; "A fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell" (the discourse there is about the wrath of God consuming that people; see verses 20,21), "and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains." Jeremiah 4:23; "I beheld the earth, and lo, it was without form and void; and the heavens, and they had no light," &c. The discourse there also is concerning the destruction of that nation, Isaiah 65:17; "Behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered," &c. And more passages of this sort among the prophets. According to this sense, Christ speaks in this place; and Peter speaks in his Second Epistle, third chapter; and John, in the sixth of the Revelation; and Paul, 2 Corinthians 5:17,&c...

The destruction of Jerusalem is phrased in Scripture as the destruction of the whole world; and Christ's coming to her in judgment, as his coming to the last judgment. Therefore, those dreadful things, spoken of in Matt. 24:29,30 and 31, are but borrowed expressions, to set forth the terms of that judgment the more.. v.30 - "then shall they see" - not any visible appearance of Christ, or of the cross, in the clouds (as some have imagined); but, whereas Jews would not own Christ before for the Son of Man, or for the Messias, then by the vengeance that he should execute upon them, they and all the world should see an evident sign, and it was so. This, therefore, is called "his coming," and his coming in his kingdom...

for wheresoever the carcase is, &c. I wonder any can understand these words of pious men flying to Christ, when the discourse here is of quite a different thing: they are thus connected to the foregoing: Christ shall be revealed with a sudden vengeance; for when God shall cast off the city and people, grown ripe for destruction, like a carcase thrown out, the Roman soldiers, like eagles, shall straight fly to it with their eagles (ensigns) to tear and devour it. And to this also agrees the answer of Christ, Luke 27:37; when, after the same words that are spoken here in this chapter, it was inquired, 'Where, Lord?' he answered, 'Wheresoever the body is: &c.; silently hinting thus much, that Jerusalem, and that wicked nation which he described through the whole chapter, would be the carcase, to which the greedy and devouring eagles would fly to prey upon it...

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man. Then shall the Son of man give a proof of himself, who they would not before acknowledge: a proof, indeed, not in any visible figure, but in vengeance and judgment so visible, that all the tribes of the earth shall be forced to acknowledge him the avenger. The Jews would not know him: now they shall know him, whether they will or no, Isa. xxvi. II. Many times they asked of him a sign: now a sign shall appear, that he is the true Messiah, whom they despised, derided, and crucified, namely, his signal vengeance and fury, such as never any nation felt from the first foundations of the world...

This generation shall not pass, &c. Hence it appears plain enough, that the foregoing verses are not to be understood of the last judgment but, as we said, of the destruction of Jerusalem. There were some among the disciples (particularly John), who lived to see these things come to pass. With Matt. 16:28, compare John 21:22. And there were some Rabbins alive at the time when Christ spoke these things, that lived till the city was destroyed, viz. Rabban Simeon, who perished with the city, R. Jochanan Ben Zaccai, who outlived it, R. Zadoch, R. Ishmael, and others." (John Lightfoot(1601-1675)

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Has Preterism just been added to our pre-mid-post discussion?

I'm merely asking so that I know for certain.

Thanks to whomever could answer with just a yes or no. :-D I've had to read a Lot today. Tired eye syndrome.
GOD Bless.

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi dmoney…


If I am not mistaken these guys just got their immortal bodies and they did not die You are wrong. You do not have to die to receive your immortal body .This is false.
I don’t understand what you mean here.
The love of Jesus compels me to tell the truth even when it hurts because even though it hurts now in the end it will protect. You see if we [b]believe a lie[/b] we have been taken captive and it is the Christian’s job to speak the truth in Love in the hopes people will [b]escape the trap of the devil[/b].

This is a part of the difficulty with discussing this issue. You seem to have no problem telling everyone else that they are “believing a lie.” So, how is it that you are so sure that you believe the “truth” and anyone else believes a “lie?” I have studied the same Scriptures…in depth…with an honest sincerity in prayer. Yet you feel that those of us who consider the possibility that our Lord will gather His Bride before the wrath of God is poured out upon the entire earth are prone to believe a “lie.”
Let’s look at the motivation I don’t even want to teach this message but I can not help it .Like Jeremiah it like fire shut up in my bones. I would much rather teach pre-trib. people don’t get angree when you teach pre-trib Post- trib. is a message that no one wants to hear.
…except, perhaps, some of the post-trib believers. It has been my experience that some of them get upset if you hear anything other than post-trib doctrine.
I pray to God that we don’t go threw the trib.because I know no self effort will get you threw it. Yet not my will but his. I believe what I feel in my spirit is the same thing Jesus felt when he told Peter what kind of death he would glorify God with. Jesus told Peter so he would be prepared, out of the motive of Love because Love always protects.
Yet, God did not [i]kill[/i] Peter. Those who believe that the Lord will gather His Bride before the period of God’s wrath are fully aware that we will face persecution and tribulation from men on Earth. We know that we must suffer for the sake of our faith in Christ. However, we do not believe that God will harm His Bride. What will make the “Great Tribulation” such a “great trial” is not the tribulation that will come from man (because man has always persecuted the Church). It will be a “Great Tribulation” because it will be God who pours out the destruction. Are we appointed to suffer that wrath? Even many post-trib believers feel that God will supernaturally protect the Bride of Christ throughout that time. The only difference between pre-trib and these types of post-trib believers is that pre-trib guys feel that God will gather His Bride before that time…and those post-trib believers feel that God will supernaturally protect the Bride during that time. Both ideas present the concept of “escaping” the wrath of God…because we realize that God does not kill His Bride.
Chris has said that we can not be certain.
I didn’t say this…exactly. I simply said that the Scriptures are not entirely specific on this matter. Hence, this discussion is the result of the lack of certainty amongst sincere believers.
I am completely certain that the rapture accurse at the coming of the Lord and not so much because of my studies. Really the reason I am so sure is [b]because the HOLY SPIRIT LED ME INTO THESE TRUTHS[/b]. About 1 year ago [b]God began to speak to me about thing concerning the end times[/b] and for 1 year I have watched this thing unfold in front of me with precise detail, one after another. THE END IS UNFOLDING RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU EYES WHETHER YOU WANT TO BELEAVE IT OR NOT.

Dear sister, this bothers me. I don’t mind that you believe that the Holy Spirit has “led you” to these truths. However, it is quite an accusation to make! I have heard people on both sides of this discussion claim just as much! They were both convinced that “God led them” to truth. One thing is certain: Either one person was wrong…or they were both wrong. I wonder how they will feel when they stand before the face of God and realize that they put words into His mouth? I also wonder: Were they guilty of bearing false witness against the Lord?
I know this much even if I am not able to convince you right now you have heard enough that when the time comes you will not be caught off guard because I warned you.
Yes, I don’t want to be caught off guard. Yet it isn’t necessarily because you “warned” me. It is because I love the Lord enough…and know the Word enough…and the flaws of human understanding enough…to be prepared for anything that might come.

I also love you in the Lord. May the Lord draw us all to “truth.” May God help us to season our words with the distinction between what is actually written and what is an opinion about what is written.

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Reading through this whole thread - I see everyone just caring about everyone else and I think that is nothing but good.
What I believe though, is that on this topic, we're best to keep our own words out of it as much as humanly possible and just post Scripture.
The Scriptures can be grouped under headings, but that should be as far we go with our own words.

This discussion, as with any Major Doctrine of the Church, can go along nicely with Scripture alone speaking for us.

It's tiring to read long repetitive diatribes that are not actually clearing the air. There's more confusion added by these than anything. Only Scripture speaks to any doctrine. These corrections that keep coming up to posting views is what tires the Saints on topics and I can't see where The LORD would want us to tire of hearing about His coming for us - despite where we differ on the timing. I haven't counted yet how many of the Authors carried on SermonIndex cover Eschatology, but just using Zac Poonen as an example - he teaches what he is "convinced is truth" and despite the many Authors' differing views on this website - I don't feel that their sharing their beliefs are "an accusation" -- if that is so, why do we not critique them? - we don't out of respect and should have the same for one another.

Scripture alone brings life - our own words can bring confusion and negatively affect others and I doubt that's our goal and surely not His.

Shall we get on with just posting Scripture for Doctrine.

C
Christinyou

I just have a few questions. Why if God poured out all His wrath on Christ, how can those that are in Christ have wrath poured out on them in the tribulation that I don't believe the Bride of Christ whose Spirit Christ is in individually and collectively, will go through, for we are all ? Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

1 Corinthians 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Being birthed into The Father's Family by the Incorruptable Seed, which is "Christ in you the Hope of Glory:, by whom we now call God Father, how can Christ go through the tribulation in individual saints, thus putting Himself through tribulation all over again?

If Christ be in you, you are His and the Fathers and the Holy Spirits possession, being conformed to the image of God's dear Son that is in us. We also have the Mind of Christ, which we are renewing to that Mind our own minds also conforming us to the image of His Son?

If we are healed by His Stripes, why would Jesus let His Bride be unhealed with many stripes, even to the loosing of Her head for His sake. I thought that is what His Cross was all about, to purchase the possession in full by the price He Paid, not the price I have to pay in the tribulation for me to prove I am saved.?

Do we have the Spirit of Christ in us?

Are we already a new creation race of people, son's of God and heirs with Christ and of God?

How are we going to be translated into the Kingdom of God's dear Son? By the tribulation?

Colossians 1:13-29 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

This is our perfection and our already being seated in the Heavenlies in Christ Jesus, a sphere of living where we are perfect in Christ whom Paul preached that we are perfect in Christ Jesus already by the work of Christ in us which worketh in us mightily as in Paul.

Why would we have to prove our perfection by going through the tribulation, when we are already perfect and presented by His working which working in us mightily?

To me the rapture makes so much sense, because we are Christs' and He is ours and the Holy Spirit is in us forever and even God the Father makes His abode with the Son in the believer, God's son's, His Son's Bride. We who have the oil in our lamps and are ready when the Bride Groom comes to take us to the Father's house and the Marriage.

Matthew 25:10-12 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

Now the tribulation for those with no oil, and the millennial reign at the end of the tribulation, with Satan bound and Christ and His Bride ruling and reigning from Jerusalem where Christ has taken His Throne of David and claimed it for 1000 years.

Ephesians 5:23-33 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

This scenario is not the tribulation Bride of Christ going through wrath to purify Christ's Bride, He did that on the Cross and the Blood just keeps on purifying the Bride with the washing of water with the Word, presenting to Himself a pure perfect and chaste bride to take to the Fathers House in her catching away into the air with those that are dead in Christ where we will meet Christ in the Air and forever be with the Lord. Comfort one another with these words.

In Christ: Phillip

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Brother Philip, what you've done is post Scripture and then interpreted it for us and added your own opinions to the Word without posting any last days Scriptures - with the exception of the 5 wise virgins.

For the virgins - there was a space of time between the time that 'the call' came and HE arrived. That time was a time when lamps were needed because of the darkness.

I'm not understanding why the tribulation is being called "the wrath of GOD" and why so many verses from the Revelation are being left out in that regard. When HE "looses" things - those "things" may come from man under Satan's fury as well, for he knows his time is short.
The Seals are seen that way by many. The Trumpets only take out 1/3 of the earth's resources, etc. And even with the Vials, which are repeatedly called "the wrath" - even they do not touch those who do not have the mark nor worshipped the beast nor his number.

My next post will be just Scripture and just a miniscule amount compared to how much there is in both the O.T. and the N.T. that speaks of that day.

Only those Scriptures that speak of "those days" and "that day" will prove His Timing and this post is just a partial list and only from the N.T..

As we speak, listening to the news, hearing these stories.

[url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8045094.stm]The pope in Jerusalem[/url]

[url=http://worldhaveyoursay.wordpress.com/2009/05/11/on-air-is-the-pope-standing-up-for-an-oppressed-minority-in-the-middle-east/]Christians in middle east[/url]

[url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/programmes/2009/03/000000_heartandsoul.shtml]May 12th Talk Show about inaccuracies/controversies in our Bibles[/url]

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.

Matthew 16:27-28 For the Son of man shall[u] come[/u] in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man [b]coming[/b] in his kingdom.

Matthew 24:27-31 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the [b]coming[/b] of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcass is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: and then shall [b]appear[/b] the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man [b]coming[/b] in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away;so shall also the [b]coming[/b] of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Matthew 24:44-46 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man [b]cometh[/b]. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he [b]cometh[/b] shall find so doing.

Matthew 25:31-34 When the Son of man shall [b]come[/b] in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: and before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Matthew 26:63-34 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God. Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and [b]coming[/b] in the clouds of heaven.

Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, [b]I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.[/b]

Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he [b]cometh[/b] in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

Mark 13:23-27 [i]But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.[/i] But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man [b]coming[/b] in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Mark 14:60-64 And the high priest stood up in the midst, and asked Jesus, saying, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee? But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and [b]coming[/b] in the clouds of heaven. Then the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witnesses? Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death.

Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he [b]cometh[/b] in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

Luke 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall [b]come[/b] in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

Luke 12:40-46 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man[b] cometh[/b] at an hour when ye think not. Luke 12:41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; The lord of that servant will [b]come[/b] in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

Luke 17:22-30 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them. [b]For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.[/b] But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. And as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and [b]destroyed them all.[/b] Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is [b]revealed[/b].

Luke 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man [b]cometh[/b], shall he find faith on the earth?

Luke 21:25-27 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man [b]coming [/b]in a cloud with power and great glory.

Luke 21:31-36 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape/fleeG1628 all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should [b]raise it up again at the last day.[/b] And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and[b] I will raise him up at the last day.[/b]

John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and[b] I will raise him up at the last day.[/b]

John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again [b]in the resurrection at the last day.[/b]

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall [b]judge him in the last day. [/b]

John 14:1-3 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will [b]come again[/b], and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. Acts 1:10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so [b]come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.[/b]

Acts 2:16-20-21 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; {Joel 2:28-32} And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will show wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. { Joel 2:10 & 31 & 3:15 - Isaiah 13:9-13 - Ezekiel 32:7 & 8 - Matt 24: 29 - Mark 13:24 - Luke 21:25 - Rev. 6:12}

Acts 17:31 Because [b]he hath appointed a day[/b], in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Romans 2:5-16 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against [b]the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honor, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:[/b] For there is no respect of persons with God.For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) [b]In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.[/b]

1Corinthians. 1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the [b]coming[/b] of our Lord Jesus Christ:

1Cor. 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless [b]in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.[/b]

1Cor. 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: [b]for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.[/b] Matthew 3:12 [b]Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. [/b] Malachi 3:2 Malachi 4:1 Matthew 13:30 Matthew 13:39-40 Matthew 13:49-50

1Cor. 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, [b]until the Lord come[/b], who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

1Cor. 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's [b]at his coming then cometh the end[/b], when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it [b]until the day of Jesus Christ:[/b]

Phil. 1:10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offense [b]till the day of Christ[/b]

Phil. 2:16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice [b]in the day of Christ[/b], that I have not run in vain, neither labored in vain.

Phil. 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Colossians 3:4 When Christ, who is our life,[b] shall appear, then [/b]shall ye also appear with him in glory.

1Thessalonians 2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ [b]at his coming? [/b]

1Thess. 3:13 To the end he may establish your hearts unblamable in holiness before God, even our Father,[b] at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints. [/b]

1Thessalonians 4:15-17 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and [i]remain[/i] [b]unto the coming of the Lord[/b] shall not prevent them which are asleep. [b]For the Lord himself shall 'descend' from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, Rev 10:7 and with the trump of God:[/b] and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and [b][i]remain[/i][/b] shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [“Remain” from vs.s 15 & 17 = Strong’s, - G4035 περιλείπω per-ee-li'-po From G4012 and G3007; to leave all around, that is, (passively) survive: - remain.]

1Thess. 5:1-4 [b]But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that [u]the day of the Lord[/u] so cometh as a thief in the night. 2 Peter 3:10 [/b] For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that [b]that day[/b] should overtake you as a thief.

1Thess. 5:23 [b]And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the[u] coming[/u] of our Lord Jesus Christ.[/b]

2Thessalonians 1:7-10 And to you who are troubled rest with us, [b]when the Lord Jesus shall be [u]revealed[/u] from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. [/b]

2Thess. 2:1-12 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 2Thess. 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

1Timothy 6:13-14 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; that thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, [b]until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ[/b]

2Timothy 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

2Tim 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead [b]at his appearing[/b] and his kingdom; Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry. For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but [b]unto all them also that love his appearing.[/b]

Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope andG2532 the glorious [b]appearing[/b] of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ 1Tim 6:14 - 2Tim 4:1, - 2Tim 4:8

Heb. 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto [b]them that look for him shall he appear the second time [/b]without sin unto salvation.

Heb. 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

James 5:7-8 [b]Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord.[/b] Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. Be ye also patient; establish your hearts: for [b]the coming [/b]of the Lord draweth nigh.

1Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honor and glory [b]at the appearing [/b]of Jesus Christ

1Peter 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at [b]the revelation[/b] of Jesus Christ

1Peter 4:13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when [b]His glory shall be revealed[/b], ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

1Peter 5:4 [b]And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.[/b]

2Peter 3:3-17 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of [b]his coming[/b]? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished. But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. [b]But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night[/b]; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, [b]Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God[/b], wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. [b]Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things[/b], be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. [b]And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation [2Pet 3:9] ; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest as they do also the other Scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness.[/b]

1John 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and[b] not be ashamed before him at his coming. [/b]

1John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, [b]when he shall appear[/b], we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

1John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

Revelation 1:7 [b]Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.[/b] {Matthew 24:30}

Rev. 2:10-11 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days; be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. {Rev 20:4-6}

Rev. 2:25-26 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations {Rev 20:4}

Rev. 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent.[b] If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief[/b], and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Rev. 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take [b]thy crown[/b]. 2Tim.4:8

Rev. 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odors, which are [b]the prayers of saints.[/b]

Rev. 6:9-10 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: and they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Rev. 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, [b]until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. [/b]

Rev 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with [b]the prayers of the saints, ascended up[/b] before God out of the angel's hand.

After the 7th Trumpet - [b]Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.[/b]

Revelation 14:12-20 [b]Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; and their works do follow them. And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. [Daniel 7:13; Joel 3:13; Matthew 13:30; Mark 4:29.][/b] And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Jesus_is_God,

I'm not understanding why the tribulation is being called "the wrath of GOD" and why so many verses from the Revelation are being left out in that regard. When HE "looses" things - those "things" may come from man under Satan's fury as well, for he knows his time is short.
The Seals are seen that way by many. The Trumpets only take out 1/3 of the earth's resources, etc. And even with the Vials, which are repeatedly called "the wrath" - even they do not touch those who do not have the mark nor worshipped the beast nor his number.

So what would make this time one of such "Great Tribulation?"

Mankind (even Satan inspired men) have poured out their wrath upon the children of God through persecution and tribulation since the beginning (Hebrews 11:13-15, 32-40). Those early days of the Church were terrible...and many believers lost their lives in gruesome ways. Yet we are instructed to not fear such things (Matthew 10-28). In fact, we should consider the example of Jesus who endured "for the joy set before him" (Hebrews 12-12) because these are merely light and momentary (2 Corinthians 4:17) -- because to live is Christ and "[b]to die is gain[/b]" (Philippians 1:21).

The Scriptures seem to indicate that the period of "great trial" will be so "great" because it is when God pours out His wrath upon the entire earth. This "wrath" is the reason that this will be such a terrible time. It will be why men will cry out for the mountains to fall upon them and hide them from the face of God and the wrath of the Lamb (Revelation 6:16). Jesus first described this period as one of "great tribulation" (Matthew 24:21). After describing how terrible those days will be, our Lord explained that His coming will be like the days of Noah. Jesus described the days BEFORE the flood as people eating, drinking, marrying and divorcing...just like they always had (Matthew 24:38-39). This seems at odds with great tribulation and persecution. Just like Noah was gathered into the ark BEFORE the wrath of God was poured out upon the Earth, Jesus indicated that "one would be taken, and another left" (Matthew 24:40-41). Left for what? Destruction that comes from the wrath of God.

Jesus stated in Matthew 24:36 that the day and hour of His return is unknown to Him and known only to the Father (which is odd, since most claim to know how long the period of tribulation will be -- which would make post-trib believers know even more than Christ). In fact, Jesus said that His return would come at an hour that we "think not" (Matthew 24:44). This seems to be at odds with the idea that Christ will return after a given period of great tribulation and wrath...with signs in the heavens...which would cause believers to expect his return.

Anyway, I am just commenting because you seem to indicate that you don't like referring to that time as the "time of God's wrath" when it is called such in Revelation 6:16...and other places in Scripture. What would make it such a time of trial that will come upon "all the world" (Revelation 3:10)? What will make the "Great Tribulation" a time of great tribulation?

S
sermonindex

Hi Chris. In reply -

So what would make this time one of such "Great Tribulation?"

"Great" in that it will encompass and affect the entire world and etc for G3173. Not a 'local' tribulation/persecution [same word] as we're so accustomed to through-out man's History.

Mankind (even Satan inspired men) have poured out their wrath upon the children of God through persecution and tribulation since the beginning (Hebrews 11:13-15, 32-40). Those early days of the Church were terrible...and many believers lost their lives in gruesome ways. Yet we are instructed to not fear such things (Matthew 10-28). In fact, we should consider the example of Jesus who endured "for the joy set before him" (Hebrews 12-12) because these are merely light and momentary (2 Corinthians 4:17) -- because to live is Christ and "to die is gain" (Philippians 1:21).

It is Biblically appropriate to face the worse without fear as you have said, yet daily, I meet those who are in fear of current events and future outlooks and anxiety comes more from "the not knowing what the future holds" - when to be forewarned is to be forearmed and GOD has given us "the spirit of prophecy" which is "the testimony of Jesus" by His Spirit of John 16:13 to warn us of things to go so that we Won't lose our Peace. He is a good LORD and promised to share that nothing will happen unless He share it with us prophetically and has written in His Word that He "has told us All things" regarding "those days". This is a comfort to those who now feel prepared for those things that they read in their News because they see the News as what has already been written thousands of years ago - that GOD "foretold" us of. Reading their Bibles is like reading tomorrow's News today and further. Makes us smile actually - we're the only ones on earth who know what is coming and how it will end. Great Joy.

The Scriptures seem to indicate that the period of "great trial" will be so "great" because it is when God pours out His wrath upon the entire earth. This "wrath" is the reason that this will be such a terrible time. It will be why men will cry out for the mountains to fall upon them and hide them from the face of God and the wrath of the Lamb (Revelation 6:16). Jesus first described this period as one of "great tribulation" (Matthew 24:21). After describing how terrible those days will be, our Lord explained that His coming will be like the days of Noah. Jesus described the days BEFORE the flood as people eating, drinking, marrying and divorcing...just like they always had (Matthew 24:38-39). This seems at odds with great tribulation and persecution. Just like Noah was gathered into the ark BEFORE the wrath of God was poured out upon the Earth, Jesus indicated that "one would be taken, and another left" (Matthew 24:40-41). Left for what? Destruction that comes from the wrath of God.

As I pointed out in an earlier post - Revelation 6 is "men" crying out -- Not GOD. GOD tells us what His "wrath" is. YES, The Coming Of The LORD 'will' be as the days of Noah & Sodom, if you read the Scriptures of "that day". He is coming to burn the tares and gather His wheat all in one day. He is speaking of "the Day of The LORD" with these verses and not the full length of the "troubles".
Also, if you do that search on the word "wrath" - as I've posted before - it is 'after' the Seventh Trump.


Jesus stated in Matthew 24:36 that the day and hour of His return is unknown to Him and known only to the Father (which is odd, since most claim to know how long the period of tribulation will be -- which would make post-trib believers know even more than Christ). In fact, Jesus said that His return would come at an hour that we "think not" (Matthew 24:44). This seems to be at odds with the idea that Christ will return after a given period of great tribulation and wrath...with signs in the heavens...which would cause believers to expect his return.

He said, "day and hour" but several times we are told that we will Know the season "by" the signs.
I don't agree with some who put a time frame on it. I believe we entered "those days" when Israel became a nation and using Daniel 7-12 to read of most of what is involved in "that generation that sees all of these things". A generation can be 70 yr.s or more or less if His shortening that time is involved, but by what is in Daniel, Matthew 24 and the Revelation - even if those three were read, we'd see He gave a timeline of "events" - and the "events" will - as we go along - give us a clearer picture of where we are prophetically and we won't be taken by surprise "as a thief in the night" HE Promised.

He put Daniel 7-12 and countless other O.T. and countless N.T. future-prophetic words in there for us to read and as He said - for us to have "understanding of those times" for our own good.


Anyway, I am just commenting because you seem to indicate that you don't like referring to that time as the "time of God's wrath" when it is called such in Revelation 6:16...and other places in Scripture. What would make it such a time of trial that will come upon "all the world" (Revelation 3:10)? What will make the "Great Tribulation" a time of great tribulation?

GOD's Word is written for a child to understand and today- "that generation" has Bible Programs to do "word searches" and endless help for "cross-referencing". I've explained Rev 6 already - even in another post on this thread and Revelation 3:10.

Word search "wrath" etc. Step out further from the few verses you repeatedly post into the Whole of His Word - O.T. included. In order to study this out - one would need to find every single reference to "those days" from the O.T. and N.T. and then cross-reference them all and do the word studies from the languages and piece them ALL together - looking for anywhere that we "think" they contradict any others. It's taken most 20-30 yrs to do this. Every verse I gave in that long post above I've had to cross-reference and do word studies on in the Greek. I started this a long time ago because HE IS FAITHFUL and would "not have us ignorant" of the times and seasons.

HE's left us with endless resouces for Study. He gave three times more Prophetic writings on His Second Coming than on His First. HE is a GOOD GOD. He would never leave HIS people in confusion and derision over "those days". HE said in the Gospels and Paul said that we have been told "all things."
HE would never leave us in the dark on anything of such a magnitude. Every single question about the days to come are in His Book. HIS Word is a Testimony to HIS Faithfulness and we must be faithful with His Word to study out a matter and not limit HIM to just a few verses but must swallow the whole Book.

I don't recommend any Authors [u]at all[/u] - just His Word in our Bibles and John 16:13.
That's why I [b]prefer[/b] to just post Scripture and allow His Sheep to study them on their own and look for more and more cross-references and word studies. Years ago I went through the entire Book and wrote down all the Scriptures that pertain to "that generation", but some people may not have the Time to do that - so that is what I would prefer to do, is just post the Scriptures. HIS Book is Loaded on this topic and we need to unbiasedly and diligently search it out for ourselves from the Whole of His Word - HE Said.

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Jesus_is_God…


"Great" in that it will encompass and affect the entire world and etc for G3173. Not a 'local' tribulation/persecution [same word] as we're so accustomed to through-out man's History.
So this is your interpretation of why the “great tribulation” is so great? You believe that it has more to do with how “widespread” the persecution of man will become rather than a localized burst of periodic tribulation? Okay, now I understand what your perspective is based upon…even though I disagree with your interpretation of that particular word (even after reading its meaning from Strong’s). You are assuming that the people who claimed that the events of Revelation 6:17 were incorrect when John had his revelation. I am under the persuasion that all of the judgments of God (seals, bowls and trumpets) will be a part of His wrath.

Now, I agree that it will be “great” in one sense because it is widespread, but I believe this is because it will be God who pours out the “tribulation” – which will encompass the entire world (Revelation 3:10). After all, it is the Lamb who opens the seals…knowing their appointed time (Revelation 5:1-9).

It seems so unlike God to warn us about a period of merely manmade (Satan-inspired, notwithstanding) tribulation when He has already told us not to fear such things but to experience the peace that He gives (Matthew 10:28, 2 Corinthians 4:17, John 16:33, Philippians 4:4-7).


It is Biblically appropriate to face the worse without fear as you have said, yet daily, I meet those who are in fear of current events and future outlooks and anxiety comes more from "the not knowing what the future holds" - when to be forewarned is to be forearmed and GOD has given us "the spirit of prophecy" which is "the testimony of Jesus" by His Spirit of John 16:13 to warn us of things to go so that we Won't lose our Peace. He is a good LORD and promised to share that nothing will happen unless He share it with us prophetically and has written in His Word that He "has told us All things" regarding "those days". This is a comfort to those who now feel prepared for those things that they read in their News because they see the News as what has already been written thousands of years ago - that GOD "foretold" us of. Reading their Bibles is like reading tomorrow's News today and further. Makes us smile actually - we're the only ones on earth who know what is coming and how it will end. Great Joy.
I agree that we can have some semblance of foreknowledge about these events. However, there is a great amount of debate over just what this knowledge foretells in regard to times and seasons. The Son of God is entirely unaware of that day and hour, yet He will be there to open the seals. Should we be so concerned about future events as to think that we can prepare adequately for them? Should we simply be prepared for ANYTHING? Shouldn’t we be simply watching for His return…as a Bride waiting for the arrival of Her Groom? Besides, Jesus already explained to us that it isn’t for us to know the “times or the seasons” (Acts 1:7), rather encouraging us to wait upon the promise of God of the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:8).

As I pointed out in an earlier post - Revelation 6 is "men" crying out -- Not GOD. GOD tells us what His "wrath" is. YES, The Coming Of The LORD 'will' be as the days of Noah & Sodom, if you read the Scriptures of "that day". He is coming to burn the tares and gather His wheat all in one day. He is speaking of "the Day of The LORD" with these verses and not the full length of the "troubles".
Also, if you do that search on the word "wrath" - as I've posted before - it is 'after' the Seventh Trump.
I suppose that this is one point of contention, since I disagree. In the Scriptures, there are many “days” of the Lord. One is recorded as Elijah coming before that “day” (Malachi 4:5), a day of absolute darkness (Amos 5:8), the battle at Megiddo (Revelation 16:14) while another indicates the destruction of the Heavens and the Earth following the millennial reign of Christ (2 Peter 3:10). Speaking of “days,” the days just before Noah and Sodom were not days of tribulation or wrath. They were ordinary days in the world. People married…divorced…etc… -- all the way until just before the flood and fire (the wrath of God) came.

GOD's Word is written for a child to understand and today- "that generation" has Bible Programs to do "word searches" and endless help for "cross-referencing". I've explained Rev 6 already - even in another post on this thread and Revelation 3:10.
I disagree. A certain, very, very small portion of the Body of Christ around the world have the equipment that you describe. Have you visited villages where no one had a Bible? I have. We take this for granted…just as we take resources like SermonIndex for granted. Most of the world – those outside of wealthy western nations – are not so auspicious to have such resources. Yet even with them have a difficult time agreeing on such matters as the timing and manner of the Lord’s return as listed in Scripture. Take your opinion about Revelation chapter 6 and Revelation 3:10. We are both two sincere and highly educated believers with valuable resources; yet, we don’t agree on a particular interpretation of these passages.

Word search "wrath" etc. Step out further from the few verses you repeatedly post into the Whole of His Word - O.T. included. In order to study this out - one would need to find every single reference to "those days" from the O.T. and N.T. and then cross-reference them all and do the word studies from the languages and piece them ALL together - looking for anywhere that we "think" they contradict any others. It's taken most 20-30 yrs to do this. Every verse I gave in that long post above I've had to cross-reference and do word studies on in the Greek. I started this a long time ago because HE IS FAITHFUL and would "not have us ignorant" of the times and seasons.
I suppose that you misunderstand if you think that I haven’t done this. I have read those same verses that you provided…and more. I have studied this thing…deeply…prayerfully…and with a clear conscience without a predetermined outcome. Yet I still arrive to a different conclusion than you have. Of course, my conclusion is ultimately to “be prepared” for anything. While I lean toward a belief that Christ will gather His Bride before the time of wrath, I don’t believe that the Scriptures are specific enough to warrant an ultimate conclusion.

In addition, I can’t help but wonder if this is an “essential” doctrine in the first place. I certainly feel that we can understand the times and the seasons AS they take place. However, I don’t know that anyone has a monopoly on truth in this matter. That is why there is such disagreement about the interpretation of the End. As a child of God seeking truth, I do believe that we are entitled to this search without having someone dictate it to us. That is a problem, I feel, on all sides of this discussion. People are so “sure” of what they believe that they understand, that they teach it as if their view is already a foregone conclusion. It is far more profitable to teach it as if this is simply an interpretation about how the end will come…and then explain why. I do think that you have done this (for the most part), for which I am greatly appreciative.


HE is a GOOD GOD. He would never leave HIS people in confusion and derision over "those days". HE said in the Gospels and Paul said that we have been told "all things."
HE would never leave us in the dark on anything of such a magnitude.
I think that you are in error if you assume that we are “in confusion” since we don’t know the exact timing and manner of Christ’s return. Just because we don’t know how and when the Lord will return doesn’t mean that we are “in confusion” – no more that a child is “in confusion” about the time her dad will arrive home. Yet even with all of this study (20-30 years on your own part) and the availability of resources, there is still some degree of confusion. Historically, there have been godly men who have disagreed on this issue. Spurgeon might have been a post-trib (as some assert), but Wilkerson believed in a gathering of the Bride before the coming of the Lord. According to Pastor Neil Rhodes, Wilkerson still believes as much. Yet these differences in opinion are inconsequential and to be expected. According to Paul, we all see “through a glass, darkly” – at least until we see Him face to face (I Corinthians 13:12).

That's why I prefer to just post Scripture and allow His Sheep to study them on their own and look for more and more cross-references and word studies. Years ago I went through the entire Book and wrote down all the Scriptures that pertain to "that generation", but some people may not have the Time to do that - so that is what I would prefer to do, is just post the Scriptures. HIS Book is Loaded on this topic and we need to unbiasedly and diligently search it out for ourselves from the Whole of His Word - HE Said.
I, too, have studied this topic in depth. I have searched the entirety of the Scriptures with diligence. Yet we still disagree (even to the extent that I have neglected to form a final opinion). I do enjoy your posts, brother. I listen (with my eyes and mind) and pray/study about this matter. I also notice that you provide plenty of commentary on this matter in many of your posts. I consider that as well. However, I am still left unconvinced by your conclusion.

Once again, however, I am left wondering if we should even HAVE a final conclusion in this matter to begin with. We can be prepared…for anything. We can be mindful…of anything. We must wait…for Him.

S
sermonindex

Mat 24:3 And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of Thy coming, and of the end of the world?


He answered them extensively through that Chpt and through-out HIS entire Book.

Brother you're basically asking here -

Once again, however, I am left wondering if we should even HAVE a final conclusion in this matter to begin with.

Because this Scripture posted below is 'just a fragment' of the Scripture regarding eschatology that HE's given us or left for us - I would naturally come to the conclusion that HE feels it is very important - seeing how much of the O.T. and N.T. HE devoted to it.
I take HIM quite seriously when HE says in Mark 13 Matthew 24 Luke 21 Etc - "Take heed that no man deceive you" [4 X's in Mt 24 alone] and "But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things" or "Behold I have told you before" and Paul, Peter, Jude, John and the O.T. prophets wrote similar words, Divinely Inspired - mostly in the form of "warnings".

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Matthew 16:27-28 For the Son of man shall[u] come[/u] in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man [b]coming[/b] in his kingdom.

Matthew 24:27-31 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the [b]coming[/b] of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcass is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: and then shall [b]appear[/b] the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man [b]coming[/b] in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away;so shall also the [b]coming[/b] of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Matthew 24:44-46 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man [b]cometh[/b]. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he [b]cometh[/b] shall find so doing.

Matthew 25:31-34 When the Son of man shall [b]come[/b] in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: and before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Matthew 26:63-34 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God. Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and [b]coming[/b] in the clouds of heaven.

Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, [b]I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.[/b]

Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he [b]cometh[/b] in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

Mark 13:23-27 [i]But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.[/i] But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man [b]coming[/b] in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Mark 14:60-64 And the high priest stood up in the midst, and asked Jesus, saying, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee? But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and [b]coming[/b] in the clouds of heaven. Then the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witnesses? Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death.

Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he [b]cometh[/b] in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

Luke 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall [b]come[/b] in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

Luke 12:40-46 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man[b] cometh[/b] at an hour when ye think not. Luke 12:41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; The lord of that servant will [b]come[/b] in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

Luke 17:22-30 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them. [b]For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.[/b] But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. And as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and [b]destroyed them all.[/b] Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is [b]revealed[/b].

Luke 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man [b]cometh[/b], shall he find faith on the earth?

Luke 21:25-27 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man [b]coming [/b]in a cloud with power and great glory.

Luke 21:31-36 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape/fleeG1628 all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should [b]raise it up again at the last day.[/b] And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and[b] I will raise him up at the last day.[/b]

John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and[b] I will raise him up at the last day.[/b]

John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again [b]in the resurrection at the last day.[/b]

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall [b]judge him in the last day. [/b]

John 14:1-3 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will [b]come again[/b], and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. Acts 1:10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so [b]come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.[/b]

Acts 2:16-20-21 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; {Joel 2:28-32} And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will show wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. { Joel 2:10 & 31 & 3:15 - Isaiah 13:9-13 - Ezekiel 32:7 & 8 - Matt 24: 29 - Mark 13:24 - Luke 21:25 - Rev. 6:12}

Acts 17:31 Because [b]he hath appointed a day[/b], in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Romans 2:5-16 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against [b]the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honor, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:[/b] For there is no respect of persons with God.For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) [b]In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.[/b]

1Corinthians. 1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the [b]coming[/b] of our Lord Jesus Christ:

1Cor. 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless [b]in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.[/b]

1Cor. 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: [b]for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.[/b] Matthew 3:12 [b]Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. [/b] Malachi 3:2 Malachi 4:1 Matthew 13:30 Matthew 13:39-40 Matthew 13:49-50

1Cor. 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, [b]until the Lord come[/b], who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

1Cor. 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's [b]at his coming then cometh the end[/b], when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it [b]until the day of Jesus Christ:[/b]

Phil. 1:10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offense [b]till the day of Christ[/b]

Phil. 2:16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice [b]in the day of Christ[/b], that I have not run in vain, neither labored in vain.

Phil. 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Colossians 3:4 When Christ, who is our life,[b] shall appear, then [/b]shall ye also appear with him in glory.

1Thessalonians 2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ [b]at his coming? [/b]

1Thess. 3:13 To the end he may establish your hearts unblamable in holiness before God, even our Father,[b] at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints. [/b]

1Thessalonians 4:15-17 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and [i]remain[/i] [b]unto the coming of the Lord[/b] shall not prevent them which are asleep. [b]For the Lord himself shall 'descend' from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, Rev 10:7 and with the trump of God:[/b] and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and [b][i]remain[/i][/b] shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [“Remain” from vs.s 15 & 17 = Strong’s, - G4035 περιλείπω per-ee-li'-po From G4012 and G3007; to leave all around, that is, (passively) survive: - remain.]

1Thess. 5:1-4 [b]But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that [u]the day of the Lord[/u] so cometh as a thief in the night. 2 Peter 3:10 [/b] For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that [b]that day[/b] should overtake you as a thief.

1Thess. 5:23 [b]And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the[u] coming[/u] of our Lord Jesus Christ.[/b]

2Thessalonians 1:7-10 And to you who are troubled rest with us, [b]when the Lord Jesus shall be [u]revealed[/u] from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. [/b]

2Thess. 2:1-12 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 2Thess. 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

1Timothy 6:13-14 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; that thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, [b]until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ[/b]

2Timothy 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

2Tim 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead [b]at his appearing[/b] and his kingdom; Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry. For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but [b]unto all them also that love his appearing.[/b]

Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope andG2532 the glorious [b]appearing[/b] of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ 1Tim 6:14 - 2Tim 4:1, - 2Tim 4:8

Heb. 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto [b]them that look for him shall he appear the second time [/b]without sin unto salvation.

Heb. 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

James 5:7-8 [b]Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord.[/b] Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. Be ye also patient; establish your hearts: for [b]the coming [/b]of the Lord draweth nigh.

1Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honor and glory [b]at the appearing [/b]of Jesus Christ

1Peter 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at [b]the revelation[/b] of Jesus Christ

1Peter 4:13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when [b]His glory shall be revealed[/b], ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

1Peter 5:4 [b]And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.[/b]

2Peter 3:3-17 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of [b]his coming[/b]? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished. But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. [b]But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night[/b]; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, [b]Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God[/b], wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. [b]Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things[/b], be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. [b]And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation [2Pet 3:9] ; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest as they do also the other Scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness.[/b]

1John 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and[b] not be ashamed before him at his coming. [/b]

1John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, [b]when he shall appear[/b], we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

1John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

Revelation 1:7 [b]Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.[/b] {Matthew 24:30}

Rev. 2:10-11 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days; be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. {Rev 20:4-6}

Rev. 2:25-26 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations {Rev 20:4}

Rev. 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent.[b] If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief[/b], and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Rev. 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take [b]thy crown[/b]. 2Tim.4:8

Rev. 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odors, which are [b]the prayers of saints.[/b]

Rev. 6:9-10 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: and they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Rev. 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, [b]until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. [/b]

Rev 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with [b]the prayers of the saints, ascended up[/b] before God out of the angel's hand.

After the 7th Trumpet - [b]Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.[/b]

Revelation 14:12-20 [b]Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; and their works do follow them. And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. [Daniel 7:13; Joel 3:13; Matthew 13:30; Mark 4:29.][/b] And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


R
rbanks

Salvation and Judgment (1 Thes. 5:9-11)

Believers do not have to fear future judgment because it is not part of God's appointed plan for us. Will Christians go through the Day of the Lord, that awful period of judgment that God will send on the earth? I think not, and verses like 1 Thessalonians 1:10; 5:9 seem to support this. Christians have always gone through tribulation, since this is a part of dedicated Christian living (John 15:18-27; 16:33). But they will not go through the Tribulation that is appointed for the godless world.

I realize that good and godly students of the Word disagree on this matter, and I will not make it a test of fellowship or spirituality. But I do believe that the church will be raptured to heaven prior to the Tribulation period. Let me share the reasons that have convinced me.
The nature of the church. The church is the body of Christ, and He is the Head (Col. 2:17-19). When He died for us on the cross, He bore for us all the divine judgment necessary for our salvation. He has promised that we shall never taste any of God's wrath (John 5:24). The Day of the Lord is a day of God's wrath, and it seems unjust and unnecessary that the church should experience it.

The nature of the Tribulation. This is the time when God will judge the Gentile nations and also purge Israel and prepare her for the coming of her Messiah. The "earth-dwellers" will taste of God's wrath (Rev. 3:10) and not those whose citizenship is in Heaven (Phil. 3:20). God will judge the earth-dwellers for their iniquity (Isa. 26:20-21). But He has already judged believers' sins on the cross.

The promise of Christ's imminent return. The word imminent means "ready to happen." Nothing has to occur for Christ to return, except the calling out of the last person who will be saved and complete the body of Christ. If our Lord did not return for us until the end of the Tribulation period, then we would know when He was coming; for the sequence, signs, and times are all spelled out in Revelation 6-19. It is worth noting that the word church is not used in Revelation from 4:1 to 22:13. Also notice that Paul lived in the expectation of seeing Christ, for he used the pronouns we and us in discussing this doctrine (1 Thes. 4:13-5:11). The Apostle John had this same attitude. He closed his book with the prayer, "Even so, come, Lord Jesus" (Rev. 22:20).

The course of the seven churches in Revelation 2-3. Many Bible students believe the Lord selected these seven churches to illustrate the spiritual course of church history. Ephesus would be the church of the Apostles; Smyrna would be the persecuted church of the early centuries. The last church, Laodicea, represents the apostate church of the last days.
This suggests that the Philadelphia church (Rev. 3:7-13) pictures the weak but faithful church of the period just before Christ returns. It is an evangelistic church with great opportunities and open doors. It is the church that proclaims the soon-coming of Christ ("Thou has kept the word of My patience," Rev. 3:10), and to it He has promised deliverance from the day of judgment: "I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" (Rev. 3:10). This promise parallels the promise of 1 Thessalonians 5:9.

The order of events in 2 Thessalonians 2. Notice that the order Paul uses harmonizes with the order indicated in other prophetic Scriptures.
Paul connected the return of Christ with the redemption He purchased for us on the cross. We are "bought with a price." We are His bride, and He will come to claim us for Himself before He sends judgment on the earth.
Remember that Christ died for us that we might live through Him (1 John 4:9), for Him (2 Cor. 5:15), and with Him (1 Thes. 5:10). Whether we live or die ("wake or sleep"), we are the Lord's and we shall live with Him.
We must never permit the study of prophecy to become purely academic, or a source of tension or argument. Paul closed this section with the practical application of the prophetic Scriptures: encouragement and edification. The fact that we will meet our loved ones again and forever be with the Lord is a source of encouragement (1 Thes. 4:18); and the fact that we will not endure God's wrath during the Day of the Lord is another source of encouragement (1 Thes. 5:11). The first is positive, and the second is negative, and both are comforting.

The truth of our Lord's imminent return encourages us to keep clean (1 John 3:1-3) and to do faithfully whatever work He has assigned to us (Luke 12:41-48). It also encourages us to attend church and love the brethren (Heb. 10:25). Knowing that we shall be with the Lord strengthens us in the difficulties of life (2 Cor. 5:1-8) and motivates us to win the lost (2 Cor. 5:9-21).

Many believers have such a comfortable situation here on earth that they rarely think about going to heaven and meeting the Lord. They forget that they must one day stand at the Judgment Seat of Christ. It helps to hold us up and build us up when we recall that Jesus is coming again.
If you have never trusted Him, then your future is judgment. You needn't be ignorant, for God's Word gives you the truth. You needn't be unprepared, for today you can trust Christ and be born again. Why should you live for the cheap sinful experiences of the world when you can enjoy the riches of salvation in Christ?
If you are not saved, then you have an appointment with judgment. And it may come sooner than you expect, for it is "appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment" (Heb. 9:27). Why not make an "appointment" with Christ, meet Him personally, and trust Him to save you? "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" (Rom. 10:13).

— Bible Exposition Commentary - New Testament

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Jesus_is_God...

Mat 24:3 And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of Thy coming, and of the end of the world?

He answered them extensively through that Chpt and through-out HIS entire Book.

...and yet, here we are discussing just what He meant in this chapter (or HIS entire Book). Or, perhaps, this entire discussion is a series of LECTURES in which someone proclaims their opinion as indisputable truth? That actually sounds just a bit more accurate.
Because this Scripture posted below is 'just a fragment' of the Scripture regarding eschatology that HE's given us or left for us - I would naturally come to the conclusion that HE feels it is very important - seeing how much of the O.T. and N.T. HE devoted to it.
I take HIM quite seriously when HE says in Mark 13 Matthew 24 Luke 21 Etc - "Take heed that no man deceive you" [4 X's in Mt 24 alone] and "But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things" or "Behold I have told you before" and Paul, Peter, Jude, John and the O.T. prophets wrote similar words, Divinely Inspired - mostly in the form of "warnings".

...and yet, I can prayerfully and sincerely read those exact same passages from HIS Word and come up with a very different opinion about what HE is saying. Do you understand what I mean about this matter not being entirely clear? You make it sound like there is no need for much of a discussion...because you already know what HE is saying. Yet there are many of us who have read those same passages...and ALL passages related to Bible prophecy...and we come up with a different understanding about them.

Should we reach a FINAL CONCLUSION of a matter that is so overwhelmingly interpretive? While you may say that it is "clear" to you, there are many of us who also have the Holy Spirit who just don't quite see it the same way that you do. I do believe that we can certainly embrace an inclination about a particular view of Scripture. However, is this something that we should (as someone stated earlier) SHOUT from the rooftops as though it were true? Or should we teach it as our own interpretation of what we think the Scriptures are saying?

L
Lysa


ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Hi Lysa…

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
I wonder just how many divisive doctrinal disputes might be solved if people would just confess that they aren't 100% completely sure about an issue that isn't entirely spelled out by the Word of God.
________________________________________

That would be wonderful if this were true but as human beings, we DO tend to say we are not 100% sure but true to our human form, we usually always finish the conversation or post with exactly what it is that we are unsure about (the side we "lean" heavily toward)!! >huge grin< We just set what it is that we are "unsure" about in cement when we do that.

The difference between the two is that one admits that they are uncertain about something while the other pushes their view as if it were the only one that matters.

What is wrong with learning each possible alternative in regard to Bible prophecy? Can’t we teach our view as a [u]possibility[/u]? We can all agree that we must be prepared for anything. Yet this doesn’t seem “good enough” because many post-tribulation believers tend to speak as if they are worried that those of us who lean toward a “gathering of the Bride” before the wrath of God might actually bow down to the Anti-Christ. How ridiculous is that? If we are prepared for both life and death…suffering and a wedding…tribulation and a gathering…how can someone claim that we will not recognize the Anti-Christ?


In all honesty, before "YOU," Chris, I've never met someone that "leaned" toward Christ returning before the tribulation (the gathering), who actually prepared for both life and death suffering as even a remote possibility. It sounds like we've both suffered at the hands of the opposite view point!

My experience with the others is that when the trumpet sounds there is no suffering because they'll be gone and it'll be the Jews who are suffering for ancestors killing Christ. Oh yes, and because I don't believe like they do... guess what? I will have to stay behind and get punished with the Jews for not believing like they do? Now, how ridiculous is that?

Why do we need to debate it? Is it to try and convince someone of something? Or is it to learn…encourage…inform (about ALL possibilities)…and strengthen the brethren? Or are we simply trying to assert how “right” we are?

...I simply feel that a discussion would not be so hotly debated if we presented our views and findings without trying to convince someone else of the “error” of their thinking. In many of these discussions, that is what it feels like.

I will try to consider what I am saying... if it is strengthening the brethren or not. Good point for those on all sides!

Lysa wrote:
But believe me, brother, if I ever change back to pre-trib, you and everyone else will be the first to know!! I will shout it from the roof tops as I shout that I believe we will be here!

Chris wrote:
Sister, you are mistaken if I would even want you to shout a “pre-trib” view from the rooftops. In fact, I don’t think that EITHER (or more correctly, ANY) view should be “shouted.”
My bad, I didn't literally mean from the house tops but I did mean that I would stand by it like I stand by what I believe now. I hope that makes sense.

Chris wrote:
Please don’t take this wrong…but I nearly do not even care how the Lord will return. I simply want to be with Jesus. If I have to suffer through the period of God’s wrath…then so be it! If I am taken before God pours out that wrath…then so be it! The decision is not mine to make.

Ok now, something we agree on! I agree wholeheartedly with your statement here. I will tell you (I may have not made this clear before) but I'm not sure about God's wrath - being here during it. If we are, I know He'll keep us from the wrath like He kept Noah and like the Israelites walked through the Red Sea on dry ground to the other side. >smile<

Chris wrote:
... This type of statement is not redundant, because there will always be someone (on any side of an argument) who will propagate their view as if it were “Gospel truth.” When I began writing my Master’s thesis and my doctoral dissertation, I was instructed to make a [u]clear[/u] distinction between fact and opinion. In fact, I was instructed to do this for every fact and every opinion…in order to separate such things. Facts must be distinguished by credible citations. Otherwise, the lack of such a citation…or the formulation of an opinion based upon a set of cited facts…amounts to an opinion that must be indicated as such. If anything, my “defense” is not against a pro-trib scenario or for a pre-trib scenario…but against the notion that this matter is settled because a few believe that it is so. If we could just season our posts with the knowledge of our own cognitive limitations, I think that we would be much better off.
I understand writing a thesis and I see what you are saying.

Chris wrote:
Anyway, I hesitated on how to present my response to your post. I still don’t know what to even think of Savannah’s post. It’s just that I don’t want you to think that my responses are directed at you (or anyone in particular). Rather, I just want to clarify that there are many of us who have studied this issue…at length…through prayer…and still cannot embrace the post-trib mindset. At the same time, I haven’t embraced the pre-trib mindset either.

Chris,
Like I stated earlier, I don't believe I've ever took what you've said personally because you have kept personal attacks (on my person)out of it and for that I thank you.

Let me end with this... yes, the end could and probably will end more differently than all the sides think it will but I'd like to quote you... isn't it amazing that we, too, [i]"have studied this issue at length and still cannot embrace the pre-trib or the gathering mindset either!"[/i]

God bless you Chris!! I hope we part brethren in the Lord.

S
sermonindex

Hi Chris. As I've said here and elsewhere, I'm not an arm-twister.

My idea was to just post Scriptures pertaining to those days. I stated that we should not get our doctrine on eschatology from Authors. I'm honestly burnt to a crisp of being handed another sermon to listen to when I ask about ANY topic rather than being given THE WORD.

I thought to just post Scripture and not Debate. Since 84-85 I've never debated this in any of the churches I've attended - as I said earlier on this thread. I don't plan to neither.
I'm not a Debater. I don't like the tit-for-tat that goes on in debates and the forcing of opinions under the guise of not wanting us to force ours.

As someone on this forum stated recently, and it's true, that what we believe is based SOLELY on "choice".

I choose to believe what I believe and do not look forward to the horror show of the last days At All.

I love people and I know for myself - I don't like "bad surprises".

I would rather be surprised and get out of here early - even by natural causes then to watch others suffer. I'm a humanitarian by nature and a care-giver. I can't stand to see any creature or human suffer.
It's gotten to the point that I can't listen to the News anymore because every night another Nation is in civil war or genocide. It's killing me in and of itself.

I fear for those who did not even so much as plan on persecution. I truly do fear FOR others with all of my heart, soul, mind and stregth.

I have no desire to twist arms - but had planned to just post the Scriptures that I have copied from His Word from the old to the new testaments and let others take them from there.
I made a sort of book out of only those type Scriptures and with them - Victory & verses for Peace in Any Storm, because I prefer to bring Peace and confidence in Christ to the world.
I have no other agenda.

With that said - we'll leave this to the brother who said it so well --- we believe what we choose to believe.

I'm tired of being misread. I didn't start any of these threads and I did a Search for how many there are from the past on here and it goes No Where.

We are only responsible before GOD to handle His Word the best we personally can. No one can force a belief on another and by the same token, we can't say "I don't know" and then change it to "I am inclined to believe" in the next post without causing confusion and HE does take our stands on HIS Word very seriously.
We need a resolve - one way or another.
I have found the "pan-trib" group to be the most fearful over the years. I hate to see anyone or anything fearful. I will lay down my life to prevent fear from anyone physically near me and have. On forums, I can't do that. I thought about it tonight - I can't be there for my Family here as I can with my home church and the nursing home they built. I can go there and be with them to calm fears at any time and that is what I feel is my calling.

GOD Bless you & yours and all here.
We owe each other nothing but His Love & our prayers for each other. Very much so.
May HE be Glorified and lifted up above all.
We'll Praise Him in Any Storm. HE is Victor!

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Jesus_is_God…

Thank you, brother, for your posts. I don’t know if I have said that before…but I do mean it. I don’t want you to think that I ever read them without considering what you wrote…and prayerfully considering why you might have written it.

I do think that I understand the purpose you might have for sharing a view that many in the Church are unprepared for persecution or tribulation. This has been a problem in a western world where Christians have never been forced to suffer like the Body of Christ has historically suffered. This actually transcends a discussion on eschatology…and digs to the ignorance of this present age. Jesus told us that, in this world, we would have tribulation. It is one of the things that we should actually EXPECT as children of God who are hated by this world. There is a segment of Christians in the west that has preached a “gospel” of comfort – that has lulled the Church to be “at ease.” This is shameful…and far too prevalent…even in churches that preach otherwise.

I should also make it clear that I don’t think that you are trying to “twist” anyone’s arm in order to cause them to submit to your ideas of Bible doctrine. In fact, I think that we should always consider one another’s view of anything as just that – a view. There are many, many preachers that I tend to ignore simply because of the preponderance of spiritual murkiness that seems to be regularly exerted from their mouths. On the other hand, there are preachers that I truly value as men of God. I know that my heart will be impacted when I hear or read a sermon from Leonard Ravenhill…or David Wilkerson…or Carter Conlon (amongst many others). It isn’t because I share every single doctrinal view with these men, but that I think I share their same passion for the awesome holiness of God. It isn’t what they teach – but the spirit behind how they teach. It is the passion that is so real and evident – that it can be conveyed without sharing any particular topic. That righteous zeal for the Lord is contagious, because it is born out of the same great love that we share for Him. These men are less concerned about doctrine, and more concerned about the lack of urgency in the Body of Christ. You can almost “feel” this concern within one of their messages. You can hear one of those messages and it will almost always draw you back to a hunger for a closer and more pure relationship with Christ.

Yet there are congregations across this nation who will spend the next 52 Sundays talking about everything else under the sun. Many denominations and even local fellowships have become institutions of doctrinal peculiarities. They almost urge adherence to a particular set of doctrinal views. While a person who doesn’t adhere to all such beliefs might be invited to stay, it is often not too long before they are urged to accept those “statements of faith.” In other words, such churches become doctrinal propagation centers. They may be evangelical in a greater sense, but their evangelism often includes a need to convert hearers to the same similar set of doctrinal views as the pastor, elders or accepted beliefs of the fellowship. One must wonder if this is what the Church was actually called to in the first place. Paul, after all, was given only basic instructions by the apostles in regard of what to teach (Acts 15:4-21). While it is true that “what we believe is based SOLELY on choice,” there is a responsibility for teachers in the Word…and they are held by God to a high standard. Besides, we should reserve the “choice” of our beliefs to what God has shown us…and not mere men.

I'm tired of being misread. I didn't start any of these threads and I did a Search for how many there are from the past on here and it goes No Where.

We are only responsible before GOD to handle His Word the best we personally can. No one can force a belief on another and by the same token, we can't say "I don't know" and then change it to "I am inclined to believe" in the next post without causing confusion and HE does take our stands on HIS Word very seriously.
We need a resolve - one way or another.

I apologize if you think that you are being misread. In fact, I don’t want you to think that I am even reading you at all. I would really like to separate the view from the man (if that makes sense). Even if I disagree with your opinion about any number of things, I don’t want you to think that it causes me to see you as anything other than a man who loves God passionately. This is the way that I view men like Leonard Ravenhill too. I would hope to be viewed similarly.

Yet, I wonder about your consternation with my view. I hope that I have made it clear that I am inclined to lean one way – toward a notion that God will gather His Bride before the period of wrath…with an understanding of what I consider wrath. However, I hope to have made it clear that this is not my final opinion. I have not resolved this to be a certainty. There are just too many questions for me to arrive to an ultimate conclusion in this matter. Like Mike said, “I don’t know” is a very real possibility for a conclusion. Since I do not know with definitive certainty regarding this matter, I don’t feel a need for an impending resolution (one way or the other). In fact, I am content that I am right where God has me. I am prepared for the worst…even if I might hope for the best. Yet even the worst is a victory for the children of God! Death has, after all, lost its sting! If my death were to be excruciatingly painful…and lasted 120 years…it is still NOTHING…and but a drop in the bucket compared to one solitary look at the face of our Lord! That one look will wipe out all the pain that this life might have provided…and we will know instantly that it was worth it!

So, here I am. I am prepared to suffer…and fully aware that I may be around during the period known as the “Great Tribulation.” Yet, my prayerful and in-depth study has made me inclined to think that this really might not be the case. So, what do I do? For one, I continue to study this issue. I don’t know that my mind will EVER change before the coming of the Lord. Yet I remain prepared…either way. I am prepared for a sudden catching away of the Bride at a time when we least expect it (before a period of wrath). I am also prepared for the worst tribulation that Satan and his followers could ever throw at me (at least, I pray that I am so prepared). Yet I do not spend my days worrying whether or not I am prepared enough…or even consumed with questions about how the end might come. Rather, I prefer to spend this time…waiting…on Him. I choose to wait in His presence. I choose to wait…not with worry…questions or concerns…but simply to know Him and know His heart. I choose to spend my life (and my time) seeking Him and giving Him the best worship that I can. After all, isn’t this what we are made for?

S
sermonindex


Hello dmoney:

[b]Based upon your previous post (at the bottom of this post), you personally believe that Enoch and Elijah do not have to die to receive their new, glorified, resurrected bodies like that of Jesus Christ.[/b]

What does Jesus Christ teach us in His Word about this?

These are the words of Jesus, before His crucifixion and death, that refers to His resurrection. Christ teaches us that unless we are like Christ, like the corn of wheat that must fall into the ground and die in order for it to bring forth fruit, WE MUST DIE AND RESURRECT FROM THE DEAD AS WELL, LIKE HE DID IN ORDER TO “BRING FORTH FRUIT”.

John 12: 23. And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.
24.\tVerily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

In 1 Corinthians, Chapter 15, Paul teaches us more about the fact that flesh and blood CANNOT inherit eternal life. Our bodies of flesh and blood are of the earth. In order to become heavenly (fit for heaven), we must bear the image of the heavenly (the resurrected Jesus Christ). In our bodies of flesh and blood, we are corrupt, but in our glorified bodies, we are not corrupt, because we are like Christ, and have his type of resurrected glorified body:

47. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Paul continues in 1 Cor 15: to tell us how we will be changed by the RAPTURE, from corruption to incorruption-from a corrupt body of flesh and blood to a glorified body:
51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56. The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

Christ is the firstfruits of the Resurrection, and we are part of that same “firstfruits” when we are resurrected from the dead. Christ had to die, just like the wheat had to die.

[b]At the rapture, Christ brings the dead in Christ (dead souls) with Him from heaven, and they receive their new glorified bodies first. Then we, which are living, will also receive our glorified bodies. These bodies cannot be flesh and blood, because flesh and blood cannot receive (inherit) eternal life. These bodies are new bodies. Our old bodies will be replaced with a new body at the Resurrection.

Only two people have been taken to heaven and not died, and therfore have a body of FLESH AND BLOOD.1) Enoch & 2) Elijah. They were both taken by God before they had a chance to die. At the Rapture, Christ will bring the souls of the believers, since the beginning of time, that believed in the Seed of the woman, In Messiah, in Jesus Christ, with him, and they will get their RESURRECTED bodies first. However, Enoch & Elijah are still stuck in their physical bodies, and will not be able to come with Him. They will have to wait until they die, during the Tribulation, at the end of their 3 ½ years of witnessing for Jesus Christ.

[b]From dmoney:

(New International Version)
50I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.


If I am not mistaken these guys just got their immortal bodies and they did not die You are wrong. You do not have to die to receive your immortal body .This is false. You know I am not following this post because I want to be right. I just don’t want others including you to be wrong. Infact I WISH I WAS WRONG. To tell you the truth I really do not want to go threw the trib.The love of Jesus compels me to tell the truth even when it hurts because even though it hurts now in the end it will protect. You see if we believe a lie we have been taken captive and it is the Christian’s job to speak the truth in Love in the hopes people will escape the trap of the devil. Let’s look at the motivation I don’t even want to teach this message but I can not help it .Like Jeremiah it like fire shut up in my bones. I would much rather teach pre-trib. people don’t get angree when you teach pre-trib Post- trib. is a message that no one wants to hear. I pray to God that we don’t go threw the trib.because I know no self effort will get you threw it. Yet not my will but his. I believe what I feel in my spirit is the same thing Jesus felt when he told Peter what kind of death he would glorify God with. Jesus told Peter so he would be prepared, out of the motive of Love because Love always protects. Chris has said that we can not be certain. I am completely certain that the rapture accurse at the coming of the Lord and not so much because of my studies. Really the reason I am so sure is because the HOLY SPIRIT LED ME INTO THESE TRUTHS. About 1 year ago God began to speak to me about thing concerning the end times and for 1 year I have watched this thing unfold in front of me with precise detail, one after another. THE END IS UNFOLDING RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU EYES WHETHER YOU WANT TO BELEAVE IT OR NOT. I know this much even if I am not able to convince you right now you have heard enough that when the time comes you will not be caught off guard because I warned you. GOD BLESS YOU BROTHER.!!! I LOVE YOU IN THE LORD AND I WISH ALL MY PRE-TRIB. BROTHERS JARS FULL OF OIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[/b]

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Waltern you said that Elijah did not die in your previous post. I simply said that Jesus said that indeed Elijah had come in the form of john the Baptist. John was beheaded for being righteous. There for he did die. 2nd Point, you said we had to die, the bible clearly tells us there will be some that will not die. What you call the rapture. The bible tells us we who are still here at his coming will not sleep –die –but will be changed in the twinkling of an eye AT HIS COMING .Even in your own post you contradict your self . You said,” 51. Behold, I show you a mystery; WE SHALL NOT ALL SLEEP BUT WE SHALL BE CHANGED,
52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and WE SHALL BE CHANGED.”


You said,” In 1 Corinthians, Chapter 15, Paul teaches us more about the fact that flesh and blood CANNOT inherit eternal life.”


Scripture does not say that it says the kingdom of God

1 Corinthians 15:50 (King James Version)
50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

You said ,”
These are the words of Jesus, before His crucifixion and death that refers to His resurrection. Christ teaches us that unless we are like Christ, like the corn of wheat that must fall into the ground and die in order for it to bring forth fruit, WE MUST DIE AND RESURRECT FROM THE DEAD AS WELL, LIKE HE DID IN ORDER TO “BRING FORTH FRUIT”.”

This is definitely not what he was talking about. Jesus was talking about love or selflessness. Which is the light that was in him and should be in every believer? This is what draws men to Jesus. It is that very selfless act that drew all mankind to him every single one of us. God is LOVE and every soul thirst for his water. If we lift up Jesus up in our life he will draw all men to himself then we can bear fruit be because we remain in the vine. IF we obey his commands then and only then can we bear fruit. No GREATER LOVE than a man lay down his life for his friends. ALL of the laws of the prophets hinge one this one rule LOVE. This is how we know what love is Jesus Christ laid down his life for us and we should lay down our lives for our brothers!!!! We are the light of the world.


John 15:4-17 (New International Version)
4Remain in me, and I will remain in you. NO BRANCH CAN BEAR FRUIT BY IT SELF; it must remain in the vine. NETHER CAN YOU BEAR FRUIT UNLESS YOU REMAIN IN ME.
5"I am the vine; you are the branches. IF a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much FRUIT; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. 8THIS IS TO MY FATHERS GLORY THAT YOU BEAR MUCH FRUIT, SHOWING yourselves to be my disciples.
9"As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10IF YOU OBEY MY COMMANDS, you will remain in my love, JUST AS I HAVE OBEYED MY FATHER’S COMMANDS and remain in his love. 11I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13Greater love has no one than this, THAT HE LAY DOWN HIS LIFE for his friends. 14You are my friends IF you do what I command.

There is also a promise of revelation in this last part I encourage you to meditate on it. It radically changed my life.

15I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 17This is my command: Love each other.

These three remain faith hope and love but the greatest is love!!!!!!!

S
sermonindex

Well dmoney, here we are again.


[b]
dmoney said:
Waltern you said that Elijah did not die in your previous post. I simply said that Jesus said that indeed Elijah had come in the form of john the Baptist. John was beheaded for being righteous. THERE FOR HE DID DIE[/b]
.

Walter's response:
You are saying that since John the Baptist, who was nothing more than a “picture” of Elijah, that when John the Baptist was killed, then by some sort of magic, Elijah was actually killed.!?!?.

Your analysis is absolute nonsense. What does a “picture” of something mean? A “picture” refers to any resemblance or representation, either to the eye or to the understanding. Thus we say, a child is the picture of his father; the poet has drawn an exquisite picture of grief (with his words). The picture is not the real thing, only a representation of the real thing.

Please find the definition of “picture”, ”, from Noah Webster’s 1828 Dictionary of the English Language:

PIC'TURE, n. [L. pictura, from pingo, to paint.]
\t1. A painting exhibiting the resemblance of any thing; a likeness drawn in colors.
\t\t Pictures and shapes are but secondary objects.
\t2. The words of painters; painting.
\t\t Quintilian, when he saw any well expressed image of grief, either in picture or sculpture, would usually weep.
\t3. Any resemblance or representation, either to the eye or to the understanding. Thus we say, a child is the picture of his father; the poet has drawn an exquisite picture of grief.


John the Baptist is also referred to as a TYPE of Elijah. What does the Word “Type” really mean?. A type means a sign, or a symbol, or a figure of SOMETHING TO COME, as Abraham’s sacrifice and the pashal lamb were “types” of Christ. So, with your understanding of things, when Abraham sacrificed the paschal lamb he was really sacrificing Jesus Christ?!?!?!?


Please find the definition of “type”, from Noah Webster’s 1828 Dictionary of the English Language
TYPE, n. [L. typus; Gr. from the root of tap; to beat, strike, impress.]
\t1. The mark of something; an emblem; that which represents something else.
\t\t Thy emblem, gracious queen, the British rose,
\t\t Type of sweet rule and gentle majesty.
\t2. A sign; a symbol; a figure of something to come; as, Abraham's sacrifice and the paschal lamb, were types of Christ. To this word is opposed antitype. Christ, in this case, is the antitype.
\t3. A model or form of a letter in metal or other hard material; used in printing.
\t4. In medicine, the form or character of a disease, in regard to the intension and remission of fevers, pulses, &c.; the regular progress of a fever.
\t5. In natural history, a general form, such as is common to the species of a genus, or the individuals of a species.
\t6. A stamp or mark.


xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[b]
dmoney said:

2nd Point, you said we had to die, the bible clearly tells us there will be some that will not die. What you call the rapture. The bible tells us we who are still here at his coming will not sleep –die –but will be changed in the twinkling of an eye AT HIS COMING .Even in your own post you contradict your self . You said,” 51. Behold, I show you a mystery; WE SHALL NOT ALL SLEEP BUT WE SHALL BE CHANGED,
52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and WE SHALL BE CHANGED.”[/b]

Walter's response:

Well, here we are again. You are saying that both Enoch and Elijah were raptured into their new resurrected bodies, just like that of Jesus Christ.

WRONG. The Bible is clear that Jesus Christ is the Firstfruits of the Resurrection. He resurrected from the dead on Sunday, the 17th of Abib, on the Feast of Firstfruits! The first one ever raptured into a new, glorified body, fit for heaven, that will live for eternity. And, those after Him—all others will be raptured AFTER HIM.

1Cor 15:20-23
20. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

So, we see that Enoch and Elijah have a problem. When Jesus Christ comes at the Rapture, He will bring all the dead in Christ with Him. Neither Enoch or Elijah have ever died. We know from Scripture that Jesus Christ is the Firstfruits of the Resurrection, so we know that at some future time they will have to be raptured, to live in the Kingdom of God, with eternal bodies. If we read Revelation, we see that they are killed, and after three 3 1/2 days resurrected by God, and ascend to heaven!

7. And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9. And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10. And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. 11. And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12. And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.


xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[b]dmoney said:

You said,” In 1 Corinthians, Chapter 15, Paul teaches us more about the fact that flesh and blood CANNOT inherit eternal life.”


Scripture does not say that it says the kingdom of God

1 Corinthians 15:50 (King James Version)
50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
[/b]


Walter's response:

And another one, dmoney!

Well, I truly believe that the Bible is clear--if flesh and blood cannot inherit the “Kingdom of God”, that flesh and blood cannot inherit “Eternal Life”. We cannot have bodies of flesh and blood and be able to enter into the Kingdom of God. We cannot have bodies of flesh and blood and have eternal life. Only in our new, resurrected bodies can we live with God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit forever!


Sincerley,

Walter


dmoney wrote:
Waltern

C
Christinyou

Walter, where do you believe The Bride of Christ is in this time of the two witnesses of God.

In Christ: Phillip

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sermonindex

May God baptize our heart with fire? So when the day of the lord comes we will not be offended, so our love will not wax cold, so we will have oil in our jars, so it will not close on us like a trap, so we can buy from Jesus gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.. Rev.3:18


You know I don’t claim to be very smart. I just know that in the presence of the Holy Spirit God began to tell me things I did not want to hear and as he told me I watched them unfold in front of my eyes. Every time dead on. On C.N.N., the news papers, bible gate way and what he told me about the church is too heavy to carry. There is a church coming out of the U. N. –The new Babylon with a new age church that welcomes
All religions and stays away from divisive truths like so many of our biggest churches in America. If we are not going to stand for truth because it might offend some one and they may leave you church what do you think we will do when faced with death. You may be ready but what about the rest that listen to a shallow easy feel good message every week. All I know is when faced with the possibility of having to go threw death or the death of my children for the testimony of Jesus or having to survive during the trib. period I realized that there no amount of self effort that would bring me threw. The only thing that would do it was God’s Spirit in a way that He was all encompassing. When faced with this question I realized I was not where I need to be.

acts. 7:58-60
stone him. Meanwhile, the witnesses laid their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul.
59While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." 60Then he fell on his knees and cried out, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them." When he had said this, he fell asleep.

To give you an idea of what level of surrender I was at, not that I am anything. My wife and I had 12 women in our house. These women are women who have struggled with substance abuse and have decided to commit 6 months of their life to Christian discipleship to overcome these strongholds in their lives. We were outreach and youth pastors at a ministry of about 500. We also had our own outreach ministry that goes into inner city areas. You are welcome to check us out at www. voicesofmercy.com If I was not ready who do you think is? People are funny many times we don’t prepare until we know we have to.

I know the things that are happening now are the things for told in prophecy. The U.N has pasted the alliance of civilizations. The U.S. and the E.U. have past laws to implement this initiative The U.S. past the real I.D. ACT May 11th 2008 .Home land security also is requiring all petrochemical facilities that have maritime access and maritime workers to have a T.W.I.K.’s card . These things are especially alarming considering the recent Home land security report labeled right wing extremist, listing people with Christian convictions as potential terrorist. Knowing the views and goals of the Strategic Foresight Group that was the think tank behind the A.o.C. : ‘that evangelical and protestant fundamentalist along with radical Islam are an enemy of civilization and should be EXTINGUISHED Another alarming fact is the association of Christian convictions with white supremacy in the home land security report written by Pres. Obama’s new appointee . Considering the relationship of our Pres. with Rev. Jeremiah Wright some one known to operate in black liberation theology which is clearly Marxist and occultist and not Christian. The Pres. went to his church for 20 years .


[T]he expressed aims and efforts of the United Nations will be eventually brought to fruition and a new church of God, gathered out of all religions and spiritual groups, will untidily bring to an end the great heresy of separateness.” —Alice Bailey & Djwhal Khul (Emphasis added)

“[T]he Hierarchy took its stand upon the side of the United Nations and let it be known that it had done so. In doing this, definite physical steps were taken to aid the Forces of Light; men and leaders were carefully chosen and picked disciples were placed in positions of power and of authority. The leaders of the United Nations and of their armies … are able thus to work - consciously or unconsciously - under the inspiration of the Hierarchy. This has been amply demonstrated. On account of this decision of the Hierarchy, Christ became automatically the Leader of these Forces.…

“And the simple-minded are apt to forget that the Christ said, ‘He that is not with me is against me.’” —Alice Bailey & Djwhal Khul (Emphasis added)

We see the two world supper powers working hand in hand one of which is the revived Roman empire , a world religion emerging from the U.N. Revelation 17:18 (New International Version)
18The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth."
The U.N. is in New York.


The Dispensation of Human Government, which ran from Noah to Abraham, made man responsible for governing himself when he did wrong. God gave him very basic principles (listed above) to guide him in this, and man was required to keep them. Since man would not listen to his conscience and let it lead him to God, God made mankind as a whole responsible for punishing the sins of individuals and keeping iniquity in check. Of course, in this also man failed, but now he cannot come to God and say he wasn't given a chance to try! Instead of forming a government that was consistent with God and His commands, man developed one that was directly against him. As the one world, global, universal, United Nations, common market, Babel of today, the Babel of 4300 years ago was more concerned about unity and progress than about their sins and God.

Not to mention every one on the planet is calling for a world currency in the middle of a global economic crisis.


I could go on for ever but I do not have the time if any one is really interested I am in the process of putting together a comprehensive report. You can contact me threw the web address in the begining of this report and I will send you a copy by email. There is no way to give you the report on this web sight. It is a lot of info. You will want to take the time to study it. I know one thing we will see if it is pre. Or post soon enough.


John 1:23 (New International Version)
23John replied in the words of Isaiah the prophet, "I am the voice of one calling in the desert, 'Make straight the way for the Lord.'
People get ready!!!!!!!!!!!!
;-) ;-) ;-)

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Right on dmoney. :-)


Have you read David Wilkerson's 1985 book, "Set the Trumpet to thy mouth" with the Forward by Leonard Ravenhill, Brother? I recommend it to anyone.
Chapter One's first subtitle on page 3 is "America is Modern Babylon".


GOD Bless you dmoney.

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To Christinyou

The "Bride of Christ" is in heaven, in their glorified bodies, with Christ, watching what takes place on the earth, and waiting for the 2nd coming, that occurs at the end of the 7 year year Tribulation,[b] when the Saints will come with Christ (Christ does not come to get His bride, becasue His bride is already with him) in His Triumphal return to the earth.[/b] (Zech 14:5)

The "Picture" of the rapture of the Church itself is found in Revelation 4:1, where we see John leave the earth, and go to heaven, and then observe the prophetic future. The difference with us will be---we will be seeing the actual events in real time.

(Rev 4:1)
1.[b]After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.[/b]

Sincerely,

Walter



Christinyou wrote:
Walter, where do you believe The Bride of Christ is in this time of the two witnesses of God.

In Christ: Phillip

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sermonindex

Brother dmoney, I was going to PM these to you because they are so precious but sharing them here with the Saints who can appreciate why they are so precious.

'When' you have the time, and I truly mean time, because these are not short nor can our minds 'drift', so full attention is needed to get the drift and at times, a pulling back of the load-bar to rehear a sentence or three and a quiet time to hear with spirit & not intellect alone.

This is stretching this topic far beyond pre-mid-post and I feel this is what we need after reading other threads, not only yours but more.

GOD Bless the hearing & the revelation from these precious audios & you.

http://artkatzministries.org/even-so-come-lord-jesus-1-of-3/


http://artkatzministries.org/even-so-come-lord-jesus-2-of-3/


http://artkatzministries.org/even-so-come-lord-jesus-3-of-3/


L
Lysa

Jesus-is-GOD wrote:
Right on dmoney. :-)

Have you read David Wilkerson's 1985 book, "Set the Trumpet to thy mouth" with the Forward by Leonard Ravenhill, Brother? I recommend it to anyone.
Chapter One's first subtitle on page 3 is "America is Modern Babylon."


I've never read that book but thank you for saying what is on page 3.

When people say to me that America is not mentioned in Revelation; I say back to them, "Babylon is though and America is Babylon." I'm sure glad to hear someone else thinks so too! Now I can reference someone besides me!! LOL

Thank you both, dmoney and Jesus-is-God

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