Christian rock music....?

After recently listening to a christian rock albulm that's, let's just say heavier than average, I've started considering the following issue.Chritian rock music...good or bad?The particular band the raised my eyebrows was Stavesacre. I was very impressed with their lyrical content which, in my opinion, would shame many a preacher out there with their call for undiluted surrender to God.Anyone with any thoughts? :smart:

The Bible never uses 'Christian' as an adjective. Can we have a 'Christian' anything?

This is an excellent comment, I must say. . . As we sit under the teaching and preaching of some of the real men of God, it is also appropriate to point out that Tozer and Wilkerson, to mention but two, has some pregnant and penetrating things to say regarding this issue.There is a tread going right now labelled "Entertainment" containing comments by Tozer.Lars

philologos wrote:The Bible never uses 'Christian' as an adjective. Can we have a 'Christian' anything?Here we go again, arguing over "terminology" rather than concepts, and realities.What if I'd named the thread "Can rock music glorify God?" or "Rock music being used as a tool for evangelism?"..would that have been more palatable?The way I see it, people go to concerts for enterainment. People listen to CDs for entertainment. Some people listen to preaching for entertainment.Lets face it, it is nice to listen to something that conforms with our own interpretation of what God is saying, especially if it confronts or contradicts with something that we can't accept or tolerate...whether justified or not.My question was intended to be understood as "Can heavy music that portrays a message that would line up with scripture, without watering down the gospel, glorify God, if the music be of a heavy nature?" Really the question would ask if this could be considered a fushion of something idolatrous with something pure, creating something impure, or can it be considered an "out of the box" meathod of commuicating eternal truth.Is this a Levite working for Micah for 10 shekels and a shirt, or is this the Apostle Paul, refering to the temple of the "unknown god". Mmmmm...so much to consider...even without considering whether "christian" should be used as an adjective or a noun:-P.

Shall listen to when I get the chance. Just for trivia's sake, I believe that it was Charles Wesley's early hymns that took "drinking songs" from the day, and altered the words, so that people were familiar with the tune of the song.Another interesting thing is the Kieth Daniel, doesn't like modern worship songs. In his sermon on The Book of James, he mentions that the church he's preaching in still sings the "old hymns".So this opens up another fork. Are modern day choruses by the likes of Hillsong, and Hosanna, etc edifying? If so, then where do we draw the line, with bands like Delerious, Third Day and Skillet, being a little heavier than commonly accepted?One common trend, lyrically, that I have noticed, is that the heavier the music, the more scriptural insight there seems to be, with "death metal (as a genre)" bands dealing heavily with repentance and like issues. I mentioned the band "Stavesacre" at the beinging of this thread, as a band that inspired me to consider this issue.What can I say, "So many pidgeons, where's a cat when you need one? ... Oh!! here's one."

In regards to music in general, based on what I have heard, (where most of our opinions come from) the devil cannot create anything. From the presumptions of some the posts e.g:"You can't win the world by being like the world, the world will only win you!"-Keith Danielit has been established that rock music is 'of the world.'So in regards to rock music, did the devil create that, or was it something that has been distorted? If this has been chewed already, forgive me I have had no time to look.As much as I respect the men mentioned in this thread, does personal preference over style and form constitute something being ungodly?Zeke

CJaKfOrEsT wrote:So this opens up another fork. Are modern day choruses by the likes of Hillsong, and Hosanna, etc edifying? Sure they may be edifying, but the thing that we started questioning in our church was the theology of the songs that came out of that. What I mean is singing about me, myself and I. How God can meet my needs, and how much I need him, and not glorifying the majesty of Christ. Zeke

[laughs] Sorry, had to laugh at the fact that Stavesacre is labled as hard on here. My goodness, you'd die if you heard the likes of, let's say, Living Sacrifice! Ummm... but that's not the point. Honestly, I like Stavesacre. I own their best hits album. They have very encouraging lyrics.I guess the only thing I really have to say on this topic is you really do have to test what has a "Christian" label on it. I've had experiences where I can't even trust a "Christian" bookstore to sell stuff that isn't against what the Bible has to say about things. I think you have to handle something like this on a case by case basis. You can't lable or judge all band that are "hard" as Stavesacre to be good or bad. You have to just screen each band for yourself, no matter how "hard", "soft" or whatever. Just be like the Bereans, and their example is in the Bible.

As far as the genre question goes, much of todays rock/pop R&B etc. has stemmed from gospel music likewise jazz, blues etc.It's more the specific influences that surround the musical styling of the bands in question that would concern me.I was very amused listening to a tape of my dads as we were driving together that I couldn't make out a single word they said, the very same complaint that is constantly made to me when talking about my own preferences but just as he was hugely blessed by a sound that I found both indecipherable and noise pollution. I am regularly in the same boat when listening to lines telling me that "faithful are the wounds He brings" and songs like Gomer's theme by Third Day I am so blessed and challenged but the sound, is both indecipherable and noise pollution to others

Here we go again, arguing over "terminology" rather than concepts, and realities. What if I'd named the thread "Can rock music glorify God?" or "Rock music being used as a tool for evangelism?"..would that have been more palatable?You mis-read my spirit. There is a difference between argumentative and provocative. To put the word 'Christian' on something is to legitimise it in the minds of many. The real question is are some forms of music more conducive to spiritual welfare than others? Music essentially touches the soul and communicates emotion rather than information. Classical music, or moody-and-sankey, or modern ballad or rock-and-roll are no different to each other in this respect. The different genres will touch different kinds of souls.In recent years a pattern has emerged where 'worship' is led by the 'worship band', but there is no essential link between worship and music; although there is a strong link between praise and music. Music should never be allowed to 'lead' the 'worship' but worship may be permitted 'lead' the music.Let me make my position plain. I have a wide taste in music. I enjoy classical music and I have spent hundreds of hours on a 'Christian' radio station, as a player of a wide variety in music; country and western, blue grass, calypso, reggae, gentle rock. I am not afraid of any music as long as it fulfils its primary purpose of acting as a vehicle for intelligable truth . I am always mindful of the words. In the life of the spirit music must be a vehicle for intelligent communication of revelation or adoration; it is to be judged by its success in communicating truth not emotion.BTW it was not the Wesleys who used drinking songs but William Booth and the Salvation Army. The Wesleys were much more 'cultured' in their background and their preference was for more 'classical' music. Not that one is more 'Christian' than the other. Emotional states are easily communicated by music, but the acid test is how well was 'truth' communicated? According to Paul in 1 Corinthians edificated is effected by understanding not by emotional states.

Another intresting note is that the old hymn writers were known for their lyrical content which is a legacy until this day ie charles wesley. But the modern worship leaders are known for their music and beats rather than lyrics primarly.. take away the music sound from most of the new worship now and what you are left with really isnt that edifying.I do enjoy quite a few modern 'worship' songs. Some of the modern hymns of Graham Kendrick or Stuart Townend have real substance to them. However, on the point of the beat... I have an old friend who is a very accomplished musician and who tends to prefer the older songs. He passed an interesting comment. He said, I like some of the new songs but we won't be able to sing them in prison. I said what do you mean. He explained (my apologies if I get it wrong) that so many new songs depend on the contra-beat and leave gaps for the band to an extent that they cannot be sung without orchestral accompaniment. If persecution comes, he said, and we find ourselves in prison without our bands, we won't be able to sing these hymns.It was an odd but sobering reflection.

Thought this scripture was quite interesting in the light of what was said about music and words:Every stroke the LORD lays on them with his punishing rod will be to the music of tambourines and harps, as he fights them in battle with the blows of his arm.Isa 30:32 Zeke

Ummm... explanation? I looked up this Scripture and... ummm... I don't understand why it was posted. It seems random. Am I missing something? In context, from what I read, chapter 30 of Isaiah is about the Lord's anger concerning those who relied on Egypt rather than in God. There's a bunch of... anologies used to describe like,(v. 13) "Therefore this iniquity shall be to you like a breach ready to fall, a bulge in a high wall, whose breaking comes suddenly, in an instant."(v. 14) "And He shall break it like the breaking of the potter's vessel, which is broken in pieces..."(v. 28) "His breath is like an overflowing stream, which reaches up to the neck, to sift the nations with the sieve of futility; and there shall be a bridle in the jaws of the people, causing them to err."Now are these verses literally about breaches, bulges, vessels, streams, bridles, tambourines and harps? Ummm... from what I gather - no. They're illustrations. So, I mean, did you think this was just a cool verse? Help me, I don't understand?!

Christian Rock - Driven to Darkness by David WilkersonIt is preached August 3,1987! When I was reading this, 9 months ago, it was like reading my own thoughts! I was glad about that but in the same time my heart was and it is in grieve about these things that are happening today in the church!

Sermonindex,How Firm A Foundation has always been my favorite hymn, because of the lyrics!

Maybe it is an urban myth, but I've always heard that the tune to Amazing Grace was originally a roudy bar song.

Maybe it is an urban myth, but I've always heard that the tune to Amazing Grace was originally a roudy bar song.Its an urban myth. Listen to the tune in your mind and ask how rowdy that could be. There is some interesting info on Amazing Grace here.

I have never heard this verse before:The earth shall soon dissolve like snow, The sun forbear to shine; But God, who call'd me here below, Will be forever mine.Do you think it could have been removed by some sort of Roman Catholic movement?

Rowdinesss developed: Noisy, boisterous, disorderly, rough, unruly, uproarious, hooliganism.Pr 29:18, Where there is no vision, the people cast off restraint.Where the Holy Sprit is not at work – the one who provides revelation and vision – the people become unruly.Music to be used in Heaven, music which qualifies in Heaven – artful expression of what is substantiated by the work of the Spirit in man’s inner constitution, holiness and humility formulated by way of musical skills.The rougher the musical style, the deeper into bodily desires it will penetrate. Death rock is an ultimate contradiction of Life. Bringing a testimony about Heaven is not an operation performed by mere words. Life in Christ is expressed on all levels of existence. Choosing death as a medium to express Life is an optimised contradiction. The two messages, the two spirits are eternally at war with each other. Heaven will not allow itself to be conveyed in musical terms gathered from the fleshly realm. Ultimately, ideally, Heaven will create its own music.Lars W.

The earth shall soon dissolve like snow,The sun forbear to shine;But God, who call'd me here below,Will be forever mine.There has been a fairly consistent dumbing down of hymns for a long time. Key verses and concepts have been removed from many Wesley hymns in spite of his request that people should not do it. Many of these modifications have been the work of evangelicals rather than Catholics. The classic omission is the verse from "And can it be..." which saysStill the small inward voice I hearWhich whispers all my sins forgivenStill the atoning blood is near That keeps be clean and fit for heaven.I feel the life Thy wounds impartI feel my Saviour in my heart.No condemnation...That was too strong a meat for most evangelicals who simply removed the offending verse.

Yodi wrote:Now are these verses literally about breaches, bulges, vessels, streams, bridles, tambourines and harps? Ummm... from what I gather - no. They're illustrations. So, I mean, did you think this was just a cool verse? Help me, I don't understand?!Sorry I stayed logged on the whole day, doh!I think it is a) an interesting verse and b) rather reveling to the way music can be viewed. In referring to 'like', it seems pretty plan that it is not 'like' anything except harps and tambourines as it says, unless you have one of the other renditions. :-P So it seems 'like' according to this verse, playing tambourines and harps will excecute judgement, not mearly the spoken word. That is why I put in, in the light of what others have said about lyrics and music.Zeke

Okay. Thanks.

Every stroke the LORD lays on themwith his punishing rod will be to the music of tambourines and harps, as he fights them in battle with the blows of his arm.Isa 30:32So it seems 'like' according to this verse, playing tambourines and harps will excecute judgement, not mearly the spoken word. That is why I put in, in the light of what others have said about lyrics and music.I think, from reading the verse, that the key preposition here is 'with' rather than 'by'. That is to say it will be with the accompaniment of tambourines and harps, rather than through their use as a weapon. I think it is a reference to the rejoicing of God's people that will accompany God's judgements coming upon the Assyrian. I don't think this is referring to the use of music as a weapon; although from personal experience I know that music can be a powerful assault upon the hearing at times. ;-)

I was researching the 'Harp and Bowl' movement recently with its powerful emphasis on the place of music. The article I found seem to be well researched and has some sobering links. You can find it here; Harps and Bowls

Every stroke the LORD lays on themwith his punishing rod will be to the music of tambourines and harps, as he fights them in battle with the blows of his arm.Isa 30:32philologos wrote:I think, from reading the verse, that the key preposition here is 'with' rather than 'by'. That is to say it will be with the accompaniment of tambourines and harps, rather than through their use as a weapon. I agree, but the angle I'm coming from is the way that the music will move the rod of the Lord. To add further clarity, he will punish them with his rod, so the music itself is not the weapon. It seems clear that it will be laid on them with the music of the harps, to take a bit of licence, the rhythm of the instruments. I get a picture of grass being moved by the wind. Probably liken it to the way people are moved to music, if you ever been to a rave you would know what I mean.In the light of what has been said about music and lyrics, I believe one cannot say that one is better or worse than the other. In this context music moved the arm(rod) of the Lord, from the total council of scripture, it was done under the inspiration and annoiting of the Holy Spirit, that is what validated the action. The same can be said of words spoken under the same unction in other situations.So with the whole scope of music which humans experience, from rave to folk, for us to categories one genre as being anti-biblical (whatever you want to call it) seems to shut the door on God being able to use that particular music according to our theology. There is discerning of spirits and the whole shooting match, but someone singing beautiful meodies could be just as rotten as a grundger or rocker.Zeke

philologos wrote:I was researching the 'Harp and Bowl' movement recently with its powerful emphasis on the place of music. The article I found seem to be well researched and has some sobering links. You can find it here; Harps and BowlsSobering indeed, but definitely valid.To build a ministry around one truth of Gods word, can cause us to become so engrossed by it that scriptural balance gets tossed out the window. The whole council of GOd builds churches and advances his kingdom. If we do have 'specialists' in the body then they are meant to be part of a much wider team that keeps the 'specialists' of a certain truth focussed on his whole will, for his whole church.Zeke

I like what you had to say about Scriptural balance and the whole council of God's Word. A good reminder. I like what you had to say about judging different genres of music as being Biblical or anti-Biblical too. Good stuff.

I'm fen of P.O.D. & evenesence, that gays are realy good. I feel the the presence of the Spirit About Stavesacre; I dont know.

I'm fen of P.O.D. & evenesence, that gays are realy good. I feel the the presence of the Spirit About Stavesacre; I dont know.Yikes! Ummm... before others misread this, I think I know what you were trying to type up in English. I think you meant to write,"I'm fan of POD & Evenescence. Those guys are really good. I feel the presence of the Spirit about Stavesacre; I don't know."Wow, you're from Sofia, Bulgaria? Cool! I'll have to look up where that is on the world map. What's the native language there? I could probably look that up on the Internet... which I'm going to do now.

The particular band the raised my eyebrows was Stavesacre. I was very impressed with their lyrical content which, in my opinion, would shame many a preacher out there with their call for undiluted surrender to God.Greetings --I certainly understand the appeal of rock music, and that there are certainly valid arguments to be made for and against the use of rock music in a Christian context.For me, the verdict on whether or not it is pleasing to God is still out. I am open to the voice of God on the matter, either way.However, what I am quite sure of is that the lives of those who use rock music as a tool for the Kingdom should be consistent and godly. It is for that reason that I must warn you about Stavesacre.The main spokesman and "leader" of Stavesacre is a guy named Mark Saloman. His testimony is very checkered, including some frequent back-sliding and pregnancy out of wedlock. I stopped by a tent and watched about 10 minutes of their show at a festival a few years back, and was very grieved by it. It was quite dark, and there was nothing vaguely Christian about the affair.I also read an interview in which some of the language used was a bit "salty."You must prayerfully decide whether Christian rock is right for you, but this is a sure thing: examine the lives of those you listen to. Reject anything that fails to glorify God or expresses hypocrisy by preaching something that is not being lived.Blessings,Jason

Hmmm... where did you get that information about Mark Saloman? I just did some research on the Internet about the band and the lead singer and here are some things I found:"After touring relentlessly to support the self-titled album, STAVEACRE, we were worn out. Some of the runs brought us to the brink of our sanity. Personal turbulence that each one of us has had to weather (both positive and negative) made for a difficult working environment. Marriages began and ended. Finances were tested to the limit. By the end of 2003, in December, our good friend and band mate, Neil Samoy, decided to move on. He is loved by each of us, and our support and best wishes go wherever his future takes him." After this hiatus, Staveacre felt refreshed through the Holy Spirit and refocused on their Christian ministry, and wrote more new songs, and talked to a new producer, about their next CD, release. www.christianmusic.comOh, wow! Interesting... I'm reading an artical right now online from USA Today. I'll post this one separately when I get done with it.

Music In A New LightBy Anthony DeBarros, USA TODAYMark Salomon of the Southern California band Stavesacre is your prototypical new-millennium rocker — tattooed, literate (with a book out) and often on the road. Oh, he also is a Christian.When Stavesacre formed in the mid-'90s, it did what a lot of rock bands with Christians do: It played Christian clubs and festivals and made albums that were sold mainly to Christians. (Related item: Big bands with Christian roots) http://www.usatoday.com/life/music/news/2002-10-07-christian-music-chart.htmBut for its fourth album, the band is on an exodus, of sorts, from that industry. With Stavesacre released last week on the wholly secular Nitro Records, band members hope the focus will be more on music and less on what they believe."We are trying to do what every other band does: just get bigger and continue to do what we love," Salomon says.They're not alone. At a time when Christian music is one of the hottest niches in the business, a small wave of artists who cut their teeth there is pushing beyond its borders. As a result, more artists with Christian leanings are flying under the religious radar, showing up everywhere from MTV to the Billboard charts.Two trends are behind the musical moves. First is the tenor of the post-Sept. 11 music business, which has mainstream labels more accepting of music that reflects faith. Second is a brewing aversion by some artists to the church-state separation of Christian musicians into their own sub-genre.In recent weeks, the Billboard charts have been peppered with secular-label releases by bands that started in the Christian music industry. Among them: Blindside's Silence and Project 86's Truthless Heroes. Out Tuesday: Chevelle's Wonder What's Next."The labels are discovering there's essentially an amazing AAA farm club," says Mark Joseph, author of The Rock and Roll Rebellion: Why People of Faith Abandoned Rock Music and Why They're Coming Back. "If a band can convince a label they can turn a profit, many labels will turn a blind eye to orthodox notions of faith in music."By no means is there a mass exodus from the Christian industry, which is robust. With such stars as Third Day and Michael W. Smith, the genre posted $920 million in sales in 2001, according to Frank Breeden, president of the Gospel Music Association (GMA).A small but growing part of those sales, however, is from artists on mainstream labels — including P.O.D., gospel singer Yolanda Adams and gospel duo Mary Mary — that also sell in Christian bookstores. Even Stavesacre's new album has Christian market distribution. "Crossover now means crossing into our marketplace," Breeden says.Among the reasons for change:Escaping a label. For some, the idea of "Christian rock" — once parodied in a Seinfeld episode as "very positive" but "not like those real musicians" — has become too narrow a definition for their art. "We're all Christians, but that's not what our band is about," says Paul McCoy of 12 Stones. The band is on tour with Wind-Up Records label-mates Creed, another band with Christian overtones that is hugely successful in the secular market. "Once you have that (Christian band) label, you tend to lose a lot of the people you're wanting to target with your music."For all its success as a Christian-theme band, P.O.D. shunned this year's Dove Awards, the GMA's version of the Grammys. (Breeden notes, however, that he has a plaque from the band thanking him for the GMA's help with sales.)"We don't really want to be a part of it," P.O.D. singer Sonny Sandoval told The (Nashville) Tennessean in April. "We're not trying to be a part of this little — it's almost like a secret-society type of thing."Meanwhile, some bands are so touchy about the Christian rock tag that they don't even want to talk about avoiding it. Blindside, Chevelle and Project 86 — bands that have at one time courted the Christian market — all declined interviews; publicists said the bands don't call themselves "Christian.""They'd just be putting themselves back in the box they're trying to get out of," says Doug Van Pelt, editor and publisher of HM, a magazine that covers mostly Christian rock. Not coincidentally, Internet chat boards for some of these bands have fans asking, "Are they still Christian?"Boosting sales. The multiplatinum success of P.O.D. — and even less blatant but still Christian-leaning bands Creed and Lifehouse — has whet the appetite for bands looking to break beyond the niche. "Obviously we're not some corporate rock band," Stavesacre's Salomon says. "But we have to think about those things that make the most sense for us when it comes to paying the bills."Formed in Southern California in the mid-1990s, the band with influences from The Cure to Black Sabbath carved a devoted following on the Christian circuit. But Stavesacre's first three albums, on the independent label Tooth and Nail, which features mostly Christian-based bands, sold about 90,000 copies combined. "That's not the kind of growth we're looking for," Salomon says.Artistic license. Whether it's true or not, some artists perceive that working in the Christian industry would limit their art. "I didn't want people to tell me what to write about and have a rule book of how to write songs," says Lifehouse lead singer and songwriter Jason Wade. Lifehouse began as a church worship band, and Wade remembers a woman returning a CD of the band's early songs because the words weren't "Christian" enough."Subject matter that deals with brutal honesty sometimes offends people that just want it to all be perfect," he says. DreamWorks signed the band and recently worked a deal to have Sparrow Records sell Lifehouse's new album in Christian bookstores.Driven as it is by hit radio formats, the Christian market also tends to shun artsier fare, which Kevin Max of the platinum-selling Christian group dc talk found last year when he released a solo album, Stereotype Be. With Middle Eastern sounds and provocative lyrics, it didn't fly off Christian bookstore shelves.Still, Max says, "It did cause a lot of people within the Christian subculture to say, 'Do we have to write lyrics about God? Do we have to write Jesus into every sentence? Or can we write songs about human struggles, about human relationship and pain and questioning and doubt?' "Spiritual matters. Mini-sermons and worship segments are a legacy of Christian concerts, but that leaves some bands chafing. "I am not a preacher; that's a spiritual gift I don't believe I have," says Salomon, who also has written the autobiographical Simplicity (Skeleton Key Publishing, $20). "Because of the society we live in ... we're taught that anyone in the public eye must automatically be some sort of leader, and because I'm a Christian, I simply must be a preacher. They go to our show and we don't preach, and they think we've turned our backs on God."Salomon says he has turned a cynical eye toward the Jesus-junk culture he has found on the Christian circuit, such as T-shirts showing Jesus in Terminator-style sunglasses and the caption "I'll be back.""After awhile the joke wears thin," he says.Whether these stirrings will bring more change to the Christian industry — or the secular charts — remains to be seen. Still, even the GMA's Breeden sees something positive in the discontent:"If you are a Christian who is in a band and you don't enjoy for whatever reason the environment at a festival or whatever venue ... then it's the most honest thing you can do to say, 'This is not for me.' It's not a commentary on your Christianity in a negative way. It's actually a commentary in a positive way."http://www.usatoday.com/life/music/news/2002-10-06-christian-rockers_x.htm?POE=click-refer

Yodi --You asked where I got my info on M. Saloman.Mark is not a new figure in the Christian scene by any stretch of the imagination. I had been a fan of Mark's, way back in the day. I am 33 years old. My first encounter with Mark Saloman was when I was 15!!! Did you know he'd been around that long?Mark used to handle vocals for a band called "The Crucified." They might actually be the first hardcore punk band to mix Christianity with that style. He also had a rap band called "Native Son and the Foundation" and participated on other projects by Mortal, etc.Over the years, I have read a LOT of articles and interviews with Mark. I was once heavily immersed in the early "Christian punk" scene (if there really even is such a thing). What I can tell you is that Mark's life has been extremely inconsistent and questionable.At the time the Crucified broke up, he had fathered a child out of wedlock. So had their guitarist, Greg Minier. Their bassist totally went off the deep end into New Age and was replaced by Jeff Belew (who handled guitar for Stavesacre). By Mark's own confession, The Crucified had been out of the spotlight due to spiritual back-sliding and had JUST gotten right with God in time for their very last performance at Cornerstone. The one guy in the band that seems to have stayed solid is Jim Chaffin (drums).Where Mark is with God at any given time, only Mark and God know. However, there comes a time and a place in which one's credibility has been so damaged by sin that they can no longer be trusted as spokesmen for the Lord. Paul wrote, "I buffet my body and make it my slave lest after having preached the Gospel, I myself become a cast-away."Since Stavesacre began, Mark has been very clear on the focus of Stavesacre. Again and again he has made it clear that he does not consider Stavesacre to be ministry or a "Christian band." Rather, they play in questionable places with questionable people for questionable reasons. They are on a label that promotes some pretty wicked stuff. When you buy a Stavesacre album, you are supporting Nitro. You ought to go to Nitro's site and see what you are propping up with your dollars. I might be a little more willing to step back on that if Stavesacre were promoting Christ, but they aren't. The only time they talk about Jesus is in CHRISTIAN magazines, where it's safe and won't hurt their career.I'm not trying to be judgmental here. I am really not. However, we as Christians have a call and a standard to bear. All this mixing with the world has done nothing to bring the world up to Jesus...it has only made the church more carnal. Remember what James said: "Friendship with the world is HATRED toward God."Don't buy everything that comes down the pike just because they give a little lip service to Christ. Rather, listen to Paul who said, "test everything."Blessings,Jason

Yeah, I know Stavesacre's been around for awhile and read the history of them in some articles on the Internet yesterday. I've never been a huge fan and only have bought their album of greatest hits in the last few years. But I heard their name because when I got saved at age 12 back around... 1995, the "Christian" music I was introduced to at the time was mostly on Tooth & Nail. And yes, [laughs] I was very much into the "Christian" punk rock scene with bands like Officer Negative, MxPx, Value Pac, Ghoti Hook, Blaster the Rocketboy(man), Headnoise, etc.From the very beginning when I got saved, I've been a strong believer in being responsible for my own walk. I wasn't a Christian because my parents tried to force me to be one. I wasn't a Christian because in was the "in" thing to do in youth group. I was a Christian because I saw my personal need to have Christ in my life. I have looked up to godly people over the years, but I never depend on them for the progress of my faith. They're all human just like me. I will be disappointed as we all make mistakes. Some are strong and some are weak. Some make the same mistakes over and over again, and some learn from their mistakes. I know the body of Christ can either encourage me to do what's right, or discourage me to do what's wrong, but ultimately it's my choice how I live and I can't blame a single person for being a bad example. When I die someday it will just be me and the Lord looking over how I spent my life, not me and all my influences.In closing, I do agree, test all things. The conclusion and decision we each come to will be our personal choice. We all have different strengths and weaknesses. May we all choose the right choices.

Well, maybe I am a bit hard line in my belief but I do not agree with most of what is called Christian rock. I have heard some that I would possibly consider but for the most part I am in agreement with what David Wilkerson said in his message about it. I think it was mentioned or linked to in one of the posts.As for this group called Staveacre's I for one am not in agreement with this type of music and calling it Christian. I listened to some of their songs to hear them and I couldn't understand the lyrics. I guess that is why they feel they have to post the lyrics on their website. They sounded more like black sabbath or some other groups that I listened to before the Lord brought me out of darkness. I also read some of the lyrics on their website and I honestly don't see or bear witness to anything that is glorifying to God about them. I am sure someone can point out one or two songs that speak about Jesus Christ but from what I saw they are just rock songs that mention God, feelings and emotions.I do not want to offend anyone who likes them but I do not see this type of thing as one's personal convictions or preference. The Holy Spirit will guide His sheep into truth but we must be listening and be willing to turn away from what is not truth regardless of what we think are our personal convictions. To me this is another example of the mixture and compromise that is in the church. No different than the world in my view.In Christ,Mike

Well put, that's your view. ;-) God has the overall best view! :-D

I just finished reading the article by Keith Green that chad recommended, I really think he has a good grasp on the subject eg....I also want to say in closing that yes, I do believe that the Holy Spirit is grieved by a lot of what is being passed today as "music ministry" and "gospel music" - not so much by the beat or content, but by the lack of commitment and anointing. But just because people with darkened hearts still use rock music as a medium for rebellion and self-exaltation, doesn't mean that the same style of music can't be used by people submitted to God to capture the attention of sinners; and lead them away from self - and to the throne of Christ!

Yodi,Did you watch:The Power of Prayer by Keith Daniel?I encourage you to watch it!In Christ,Kire

Hi Y'all,Before anyone asks me, I haven't seen the Keith Daniel vid' yet (homework for this weekend).I did, however read the Wilkerson article. I must say, that it was interesting to hear him criticise himself for letting his personal preferances in music etc, influence his opinion of the event, only to turn around and criticise things that he formed an opinion on based upon "seemingly unsubstantiated accusations". I know that this sounds like a criticism of Ps Wilkerson as a man of God, however anyone who has read any of my posts in the past, will know that I admit the possibility of the falability of all men (including myself) as the basis of my judgements. Essentially, I personally endorse Ps Wilkerson as a man of God (not that he needs my endorsment), however he does seem to let preconceived ideas dictate his opinions on occasion. My basis for my above accusation is that he hasn't seemed to asertain, from the musicians involved, the reasoning behind the effects used and song lyrics. Also please note, that the message in question was released in the late 80's, a period the spawned a whole manner of excesses in charasmatic circles. One may remember the video "Hells Bells" that covered rock music's "demonic roots" by comparing song lyrics with portions of Anton LeVays "Satanic Bible" as a point of reference. In amongst stating proven things like Jimmy Page's ownership of Alastair Crowley's mansion, they mention "back-masking" and other questionable "proofs". My mind also goes back to an accusation that the song "Puff the Majic Dragon" was about smoking marijuana. Years later, it was revealed that the song was about "the loss of childhood". What do "flashing lights and smoke machines" have to do with occult? Aren't they simply amoral tools, used as an special effect? Check out Devotions or Devotion by Kieth Green, for an excellent presentation of the concept of all things being done for the glory of God.David Wilkerson refers to musicians going back to their cocaine and strange dress. Did the band in question take up cocaine? He never tells us specifically. It seems to me, that Ps Wilkerson experienced something that made him feel uncomfortable and became offended.With regard to Stavesacre, and their sordid past, do we reject the Saul of Tarsis based upon his muderous past? I have heard testimony after testimony, of people who had severe ups and downs, until they discovered the truth that is contained with Galatians 2:20, Romans 6-8 and the like, and began to truly "walk in the Spirit". Hey, I am one such as this, and I'm not the only one (you all know who you are8-)).Arthur Katz has said that we are not at liberty to judge, apart from what comes from revelation. And that we should alway take note that we don't have the "omniscience of God" at our beckon call, to big note ourselves as vessels of correction (check out Part 2 of "There were two tree in the garden"). Perhaps Ps Wilkerson did receive revelation, regarding that music event, and the state of the "christian" music scene, at that time. Hey I've heard confirmed dubious stories about some bands that are well known as being "pious" (for example DC Talk).When I listen to Stavesacre, I hear songs that say "until you work out that you can only live this 'christian' life in the power of the Holy Spirit, you're doomed to failure", to the "chritians" and "I hope you work out that their's more to reality, and that there is a Creator that will demand an account, one day", to the non believer.For example, check out the lyrics for "Freefall (From Hand to Hand) and "Burning Clean" for the first example, and "Threashold" as the second one. Lyrics can be found at their webisite http://www.stavesacre.com/index_main.html.BTW, this has been a very well balanced discussion, with a variety of different viewpoints. I hope my comments don't give licence to those who have kind of "nazarite" vow regarding these styles of music. At the end of the day, anything done without faith is sin. If this is "meat" to me, and you should be "vegetarian" (see Romans 14) in this matter, then obey God first, don't let me take you off track. Only, consult God on the matter, and "be fully convinced in (your) mind (Rom 12:5)". If God speaks to you through Living Sacrifice (not that I can comprehend how, He could:-P), then let him. If heavy music makes your mind angry (James 1:19-20), then flee from it, as Joseph before Potifer's wife.

Greetings --Sorry...for some reason I am having trouble using the "quote" function lately.Cjak asked this question in regard to my criticism of Mark Saloman's sordid past: "Do we disqualify Paul because of his past?"There is one huge difference. Paul wasn't a preacher of the Gospel then. Mark was. You ought to read some of the lyrics he penned for his old band, "The Crucified." If that isn't preaching, I don't know what is.Mark disqualified himself in the same way that Jimmy Swaggart did. Am I saying there isn't redemption for these people if they repent? Of course I'm not. What I am saying is that you disqualify yourself from being a witness by killing your credibility, via sin.But there is another big problem with bands like Stavesacre. There is not much in the way of the Gospel there. If any of you were around back when Christian metal, punk, etc. first started coming out of the church, you'll remember what the big justification for it all was -- evangelism.Now it is about "artistry." So now we look like the world, sound like the world, and talk like the world with little or no hint of Christ. The listener has to "read between the lines." Sometimes the message of Christ is so coded that not even a Christian could discern it.Stavesacre has made their stance on all this clear, over and over. Their objective is nothing more than to be a successful rock band. They see no connection between their faith and their music. Of course, there may be times in which something spiritual seeps through, but I could point you to a million songs written by non-Christians that talk about spirituality from a Christian standpoint. If you think Stavesacre is just trying to be a little more "tactful" about the way they do ministry, you have been fooled. Jesus said, "You are a city on a hill which cannot be hidden" and "No one lights a candle and puts it under a cover."Here is the bottom line: we are in or we are out. We are of the Kingdom or of the world. This business of trying to have all the Kingdom of God and all the world too has got to stop. The Bible says, "True religion that God accepts is to look after orphans and widows and keep oneself from being POLLUTED BY THE WORLD."As I said before, Christian rock is a debatable issue. As I grow in the Lord I find less and less of it holds even a SHRED of spiritual worth. Most of mine has gone straight into the garbage can. And it isn't because I have gone square, either. But as someone here already stated, what isn't debatable is the standards to which we are called. When it comes to listening to bands like these, what I see is really just a bunch of justifications to hold on to something that is really indefensable. I think the Scripture paints a wholly different picture of the Christian life than that being presented by all the Church's "rock stars."Blessings,Jason

Tears of Joy No, I haven't watched "The Power of Prayer" by Keith Daniel. I'm sorry to say, but I'll be quite honest, not trying to offend anyone, but I think I watched a video of him once, and I didn't like his style of teaching. I just don't like being yelled at [laughs]. Try coming from a different background - you'd know where I was coming from. God bless him though because I'm sure his style ministers to many. And whether it's the preachers on here, or the pastors from Calvary Chapel, I am very careful not to base my faith on the opinions of man. I can compare their opinions to the Word of God and be encouraged, but it's not their words that are going to direct my life. Just where I'm at.CJakforest With the previous said, what was I going to say to you [laughs]? Just kidding. No, you had a lot of good things to say, in my opinion, since I have'nt taken any Nazarite vows [laughs]. I'm a woman - I don't think I could if I wanted to anyway! Just kidding.Jslimbaugh Last but not least... thank you for warning us about Mark Salomon's witness. With everything you've said, I'm sure your intention is that we wouldn't be led astray by bad witnesses. BUT, I'm still not sure if I agree with repentance not being good enough to redeem someone's witness. I only think this due to the story of David. Now, it is true, when we think of him the first things that probably come to mind are Goliath and Bathsheeba. Yet, after repentance, God still referred to him as a man after His own heart, despite the horrible sin he committed of adultry AND murder. Do we disregard the Psalms because David wrote them, yet sinned? And Proverbs 31... do we disregard that chapter because it was written by a woman who committed adultry? And how about all the rest of the Proverbs that were written by Solomon, who in Ecclesiastes, pretty much did the things he warned others not to do in the Proverbs? Do we rip these books out of our Bibles because sinful, hypocritical, fallen man wrote them? If anything, God proves through what He had to say about these men in the end, that He is a God of redemption.I just know, that I am very thankful that God is the Judge of all, not us. It is so easy to get mad at other people's hypocrisy and sin, but we are no better. If we keep high standards and abstain from worldly things, it may be hard to convince ourselves of that, but we're still sinful man and will always be until we're in perfect glory, in God's presence in heaven. I think the best thing to do, and the wise, is instead of trying to prove how unredeemable some people are, is to look at our sinful selves and be SO THANKFUL that God hasn't given us what we deserved, but graciously allowed us to accept His salvation. We are not more deserving of forgiveness, restoration, and grace than others. None is righteous, no not one.

Yodi --That is a fair response to my point.Let's just make sure that we don't over-justify those who are "wolves in sheep's clothing." And I am not speaking of any particular artist at this point. I would no more recommend a preacher who was worthy of high scrutiny because of his words and actions.Let's also make sure that the focus is really the Gospel, and not just "rock and roll." Let's also be willing and ready to hear God say that our participation in Christian rock is not healthy. After all, we are so idol prone. There aren't many places in Western culture in which we are more idolatrous than in our worship of sports, music, and movie stars.Blessings,JasonBlessings,Jason

Yodi wrote:It is so easy to get mad at other people's hypocrisy and sin, but we are no better... I think the best thing to do, and the wise, is instead of trying to prove how unredeemable some people are, is to look at our sinful selves and be SO THANKFUL that God hasn't given us what we deserved.Hi Yodi,Judging from your tone, you and CJak listen to that type of music, so it is something you are already doing, and like listening to. So the defense of that music is a defence of a personal opinion, therefore a defense of your very self. So to discern when the body posts, I think that it comes out of a heart of care and concern that we ourselves don't walk down those roads that are not profitable. When I was reading your post my response was, be aware, keep your eyes open, listen and I'm not just referring to the concerns expressed on this thread. What messages is the band sending, what are their life values as Christians? DO they model new Testament life? Are they singing about things that are expressed as eternal truths in the word? Are their lives consistant with the admonishment to set our minds on things above? I put these questions in here not because I have any thoughts about the band, but as a guide for you to make the best decision about them. The principle goes that bad company corrupts good character, or put another way, if you lie with dogs, you are going to pick up fleas.;-) So if you do scrutinise them, ask yourself difficult questions about them.If you chose to listen to that music be aware and note this is not the same as 'beware'. Know that some have expressed a check about that 'style', so, now at least you now know what people think. What are you going to do with it?God bless you,Zekep.s.It is so easy to get mad at other people's hypocrisy and sin, but we are no better.My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. 1 John 2:1 Seems clear, there is enough truth in the book to keep me from it. Either Jesus is able to save from sin or the gospel is worthless. :knockedout:

I've traveled quite a journey when it comes to music. As a kid, my dad was a big influence on me when it came to music. I grew up with U2, Darrel Mansfield, and Undercover. He also didn't just listen to music, but appreciated it as he's a musician himself. In the middle of jr. high, Kurt Cobain had killed himself and this new genre of music called "alternative" was born. So Nirvana, REM, Smashing Pumpkins, Offspring, Weezer, and bands like that were brought into our home. I was not yet a Christian at this time. But after a series of events, I gave my life to the Lord, and after getting through some pretty hard times, my parents started walking stronger with the Lord. [laughs] Then my dad introduced me to this Christian hardcore band called NIV (No Innocent Victim). They used to do band practices at our church that I came to watch and my dad was friends with the bass player and drummer. So, that was my first Christian band. I've heard several arguments about whether or not a scene like hardcore or punk could even be Christian, but I know for myself personally, it helped me A LOT in those first few years of my relationship with God. I'm a pretty extreme person, so that music influenced me to be a serious Christian and to take strong stands for morality. I did use to idolize band members, but I was young and impressionable. But I've grown a lot since then and have been delivered from being identified with a particular scene. When I graduated from high school and started working at this church, I started becoming more lady like and my mom started being more of an influence on me musically. So then I started getting into Rebecca St. James, Jennifer Knapp, Jars of Clay, etc. I don't have my old hardcore and punk rock albums anymore, but I do still like all sorts of music. I stopped being a fan of bands a long time ago because they'd always break up or start singing about stupid stuff when they used to sing edifying, encouraging stuff. So... I'm not at all trying to defend Stavesacre as a band or vouch for their witness or personal walk. I just know that that one album I have of their greatest hits is when they were still singing about God, and there's encouraging stuff on there that does help me with my walk. So I'm not promoting a person or a band, but the lyrical content of those particular Christian songs that encourage me as a believer. Mark's lifestyle doesn't take away the power of those songs for me, just like the Psalms and Proverbs' power isn't quenched due to David, Bathsheeba and Solomon's mistakes. That's all I'm sayin'.Now concerning what I wrote concerning David, Bathsheeba and Solomon, I in no way was using as a license to sin. I totally agree that God doesn't want us sinning in the first place. There IS all sorts of great application in the New Testament to keep us from having to learn from our mistakes. There's great hope in the fact that God is capable of giving us the strength to stay on the right path. BUT, there is also hope if we happen to fall, which we all do. There's salvation and there's redemption. I would hope that the 2 God offers, depending on where we are in our walks, would encourage us to have a right, loving relationship with our Savior.

One of the reasons that I began this thread (I'll say now that it's in full swing - without fear of bias being inserted), was due to a line going round in my head from Stavesacre's song "Loader". I bought the "Friction" album in the year it was released, based on a friends recomendation. I hadn't listened to it for a while, due to the fact that my wife's musical tastes are a little more sedate than mine, and that I prefer to listen to either preaching or "praise and worship" (for want of a better classification) bands while driving, as I know that I receive edification from God through them. Sometimes it's more comfortable to go where you know the food is, rather than to go to the "brook Cherith"s out there, and wait for the ravens.The line that went through my head was:plead inner-man to comprehend love of the Christ surpassing knowledge what is its width, length, height, and depth...? Though my memory of the exact lyrics were a bit hazy, at the time (considering, I had never actually "read" the lyrics), I felt compelled to dig out the CD to investigate it, to discern whether there was something of truth here or not.Upon reading the lyrics (which can be found at http://www.stavesacre.com/lyrics2.cfm?ID=2, while listening to them, I discovered what I can only describe as something similar to Christian trying to comprehend the fact that he fell for the trap of Worldly Wiseman, in "Pilgrim's Progress".Upon further investigation, I discovered a plethora of songs, that were dealing with issues that I have been struggling with for the past week (prior to this happening), leaving myself void of any kind of "human excuse".Perhaps Mark and the boys are off the rails. I'm encouraged by the fact that I have found nothing from them intended to "justify their spirituality" out there. It seems as if they are content in letting their life and music speak for themselves. But even if they are off the rails, mine has been a walk, riddled with people who God used prophetically in my life, only to have them fall away in ghastly fashion (if anyone wants to know more about that, I may discuss privately, as this can be a highly controversial subject, that can give people wrong ideas regarding sin and morality...let's just say that I've learned from my mistakes, re discussing these details). By prophetically, I mean statements made, with pinpoint accuaracy, regarding God's intended direction in my life, that signposted events to happen years later...Also, the night that I was "delivered" from drug addiction, I was prayed for by a minister, who later fell away from christianity altogether.At the end of the day, we need to be wary of the fact that God can use whatever means necessary to get our attention. Not that we should be running towards those of proven disrepute (as I have been accused of saying in the past), only that we need to "be aware" (as Zeke said).I think that Yodi and I are simply trying to sy, that for some out there, you shouldn't be listening to this stuff, because the music takes you somewhere bad, or there is undue emphasis upon the personalities (bear in mind, I had a discussion with a man who visited this site at one stage, who criticised certain people for placing undue emphasis on preaching personalities, hosted at this site...which I had to admit existed). However, there are others that are allowing themselves to be shackled to a kind to "Saul's armour" (manifesting itself in aligning themselves with other peoples opinions, rather than going to the Source of all revelation). This must be rejected in the way that David rejected Saul's "compassionate". We all agree on one point...be alert. Or as Peter put it, "be sober and vigilant" being ever aware that our "adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion (even worse, as an angel of light) seeking whom we may devour". I pray that none will take my "opinions" to heart, but see them as they are...opinions. I also pray that we all can have what "ears to hear" what Christ is saying to us (individually and corporately) on this matter.Thank you all for civilly letting me raise this issue. And thank you for your kindness and humility in your comments. Please also forgive me for any unintended arrogance expressed during this journey.Bless you all.

Hello. Just as a passing thought, perhaps as Christians we should be encouraging expressions of praise to God. I would submit that we would have no hymns if personal expression was not written down and put to music. Should we as Christians assume that the only music that can glorify God be written in the 1800's and before? What do you guys think? CK

Okay, I've watched the message. I've always stated the fact that we can be too opinionated to hear correction from unlikly sources. This has been based upon the fact that we tend to lean toward our personal preferances rather than what God would want to tell us.I apply a rule, that if I walk away feeling free after my arguement with someone, holding no animosity against the other party, then there's a good chance I'm in the will of God. But if I feel an agitation in my spirit, then I have to consider that I may be wrong. My purpose behind saying this, is simply to let all those out there that, I may have dealt harshly with, know what goes on from behind this keyboard:-D.When I watched this sermon (first video I've watched of Daniel...big fan of his audio), my fist impression was the fact that he doesn't open his Bible when quoting scripture, yet is flawless in literal accuracy. This impressed me because I was always aware that this man seems to have a handle on the will of God, alien to many (listen to both his and his father's testimony, and you can see why).The message was amazing, with testimony after testimony of answered prayer, each of them challenging my faith, regarding the perfectness in which God answered. Then came the material in question, which I'm going to briefly cover, as I know that many will never download this message, due to personal preferances.He recounts the story of a man who was sent out to pastor a church, after finishing his internship. Upon arriving, he delivered a message on the necessity of repentance. This offended the congregation, due to the fact that it implied that they weren't saved, and the head deacon heavily warned him not to preach like that again.Shortly after this, the pastor attended a youth meeting, with his wife. Upon arriving, he was greatly troubled over the dance music emanating from the church. (At this point, Daniel went on a tangent, pointing out the error of allowing "christian rock" into churches) The pastor wanted to go home but stayed, at the recomendation of his wife (the youth pastor was the head deacon's son). While there, he tried not to look judgmental, but was deeply grieved by the event. Eventually, it got too much. He silently prayed, "God you've got to stop this!! Blow that thing (the stereo system) up!!". No sooner than he said "in Jesus name", the sound system blew up. It didn't just burn out, or break down, but it was like a bomb when off. They never got around to fixing it, and they couldn't afford to replace it, so that was the end of the dances.At first, while listening to this, I was hurt. I knew that here was an amazing message about prayer, that I couldn't distribute, due to this story in the middle. I knew that the moment many would hear this, that they would switch off to everything else he had to say. Then I started thinking about it, and I had to admit, that it "offended me".My musical preferances were being challenged. Was I being upset, due to that man's opinion, or was I being offended by this man's (my own) opinion? If this music was okay, and this pastor was offended unjustly, then why did God answer his prayer?I've always held, that a man with a theory, is always at the mercy of a man with an experience. Could it be that this man's experience, is challenging my theory?You may still hear me challenging on this issue, as I'm kicking and screaming my way into the will of God, but be aware of the fact, that I have had many a convincing argument presented, under the guise of "orthodox christianity", only to be disproved by scripture.Do I think that "christian rock" is evil? Let's just say, that I'm open to the possiblity that it's dangerous. Romans 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat (listen), because he eateth (listeneth) not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.My whole point is, faith doesn't consist of doubting. Wouldn't it be wiser to doubt yourself, instead of be potentially stubborn?

Dear Aaron,Once again you have displayed a wonderful teachable and humble spirit. I am again, impressed, awed by your humility to come on here and admit that you are learning, that you may not be right about everything. It takes real humility to do that- and that is manly thing to do. We need more leaders who are willing to admit that they might not know all the answers, and when they are in doubt, they admit it. We should all remain teachable.Thank you so much for being transparent and having the guts to be open about considering other possibilities. The Lord can take you far with that kind of heart.In Him, Chanin

Well said you guys.Have stayed away from this whole topic oddly though I have quite a bit of experience in this whole area. My whole life prior to being apprehended from above was of music, it consumed me, had my sights on being one thing, a musician and yeah a 'rock-star', shoot I even kept the 'mop' to this day, but that's a whole other issue....To be frank the reason I haven't jumped in here is because I just don't know. I can't explain why I don't really listen to much of anything, "Christian or otherwise". Think there is a part of a Watchman Nee-esk mentality going on, that idea of the lower nature and the impulses of that, that can be expressed in music. I am talking as much about the 'sound' of it, the beats and movement, the effects of minor and major chord structures, the minors generally being more 'moody' and\\or depressing...Trying to say that beyond the mere words there is something deeper and soul effecting going on. Without sounding paranoid, there is a danger there, it's subtle, but it is there.Power also comes to mind. As it relates to rock music, if you have ever stood in front of a Marshall amp cranked up to 6 or 7 (As a guitar player, thought I better insert that)...Oh, you don't know unless you have felt it, because for one YOU are 'creating' this sound, you have control over it and it does something to you, you can feel it in your bones, it's a high without a doubt.The problem is, now, is this a good thing?I am not so sure...Just a few thoughts.For now, my mindset is undecided, but have just been staying away from it, it just seems best for ME.Lastly, about Keith Daniel and that message, yes, interesting that if it didn't bother you (us) to hear him say what he said about that, seems it would be easy just to dismiss his words as 'Oh, he's just old fashioned' wouldn't it? Also, seem to recall that he talked about the thumping in cars that your hear, something I wish was just banished from the planet. It's different now, this heavy bass pumping through primarily rap music and the like (and there is another one that I think touches on the spiritual side of things, the wrong side personally) but even as a 'rock and roll' rebel still had some courtesy to those around me, turn the stupid thing down for crying out loud...!Sorry for the tangent, had to get that off my chest 8-)

It's incredible how one can acquire a taste for and even a fondness of humble pie. I find that the longer that I'm in Christ, the flavour seems sweeter and sweeter in direct proportion to the bitterness of the ingredients.Brother Kire (Tears_of_joy) directed my attention back to this thread today. We have been coresponding with each other now for a few months, and all of a sudden, he informs me of the fact that he was involved in an event that led to my begining to shed my hardened exterior of stubborn self-righteous correctness, to being one one understands that for the most part....I'm worng. Scripture says, "Let God be true and every man a liar", but how many of us consider that we are one of the "every men"?With these thoughts in mind, I feel that a retraction is in order for some comments that I made here, in ignorance to truthes that I have come to understand since.CJaKfOrEsT wrote:Essentially, I personally endorse Ps Wilkerson as a man of God (not that he needs my endorsment), however he does seem to let preconceived ideas dictate his opinions on occasion. My basis for my above accusation is that he hasn't seemed to asertain, from the musicians involved, the reasoning behind the effects used and song lyrics. Asernic is poisonous, whether it's coated in chocolate or not. In fact chocolate-coated aresnic is even more dangerous because it appears safe. While I have claimed here that the motives and intentions of these musicians may have justified there meathods, the reality is, people generally only see the meathod, and miss the purpose. As Tozer put it, "People who say the ends justify the means, don't realise that the means determines the end" (paraphrase). Anyone who moves around charismatic circles will notice that oftentimes we are inundated with statement that "Christianity isn't about a destination, it's about a journey", only to have the "journey" that they walk appear suspect. We can try to apply a "check list" approach to descerning truth in a world run by darkness, and it will only lead to embracing deception.For example, as a immature believer, I used to get alot out of Rodney Howard-Browne. The reality is, the brother has a handle on things that many a stable minister ignores. There is an uncompromising orthodoxy in his teaching, which is rare in the body of Christ, calling for total surrender in obedience to the Word of God, and the Spirit of God. There is only one problem. There are manifestations in his meetings that involve falling to the ground, shaking and laughing "uncontrollably", and he assumes that this is the work of the Holy Spirit. Now, we are to judge false prophets by their fruit. The fuit of the Spirit is "self-control". If we compare this with the above mentioned actions, we have to say that the Holy Spirit is going against His own specification of what He will do. If that is the case, then how is He "leading us into all truth"? The only logical conclusion is that this is the work of a spirit of error.Now there are two possibilities here. Either it is a satanic attempt to divert attention away from the "Spirit of Truth", or it's God's actions in judgement, sowing confusion into an apotate church. Either way, it cannot be considered to be "blessing", but more a "curse". The Prophet wrote "Woe to those who call good evil, and evil good". If this is the case, then "Woe to Dr Howard-Browne"."But", I hear you say, "We shouldn't throw out the baby with the bath water, should we?" Well, let me put it this way, if the baby is the bastard child of satan and the world, then we should drown it in the bathwater before we pour it out. The most dangerous deception possible, is the one that is camouflaged with truth.CJaKfOrEsT wrote:Also please note, that the message in question was released in the late 80's, a period the spawned a whole manner of excesses in charasmatic circles. One may remember the video "Hells Bells" that covered rock music's "demonic roots" by comparing song lyrics with portions of Anton LeVays "Satanic Bible" as a point of reference.While I still hold that this video is erroneous in it's assertions, two wrongs don't make a right. To attempt to blame the excesses of a movement on an era of time, and then use this as the basis of rejecting an article witten in the same era, is equally erroneous. One would have to reject A.W.Tozer and Leonard Ravenhill based on this logic (not to mention the Lord Jesus Christ, Himself).However, I'll hold that "Hells Bells" and the like actually exaggerated the situation that it intended to difuse, by using unnecissarily using superstition and fear to condemn rock music, rather than exhorting people of the errors as shown in the Word of God. The video is full of ominous depictions of black clad "satanist" weilding knives and skulls, when true satanists tend to go around dressing quite normally, and have impeccable characters, by legal standards. The reality is, satanism isn't about stranggling chickens and the like, their only real problem is that they think that they are god. Granted, quite a glaring fault (after all, they are satanists), but how many "christians" act as if they are their own deity?CJaKfOrEsT wrote:What do "flashing lights and smoke machines" have to do with occult? Aren't they simply amoral tools, used as an special effect? Check out Devotions or Devotion by Kieth Green, for an excellent presentation of the concept of all things being done for the glory of God.Who really cares whether falshing lights and smoke machines are "occultic"? To paraphrase Art Katz, "Amorallity is worse than immorality, because it doesn't care whether something is right or wrong." Somehow we christians got it in our heads that somethings are okay to do, when other things are not. Did you ever notice how the list changes based on its authors personal preferences? "I'm a homosexual, and I say God's okay with it", or "My husband's a wife beater, and I say that there is nothing wrong with divorce", or "The law of the land says 'No street preaching', so it's okay if I lie when I get caught. After all, I would be a bad steward of my finances if I blew it on a fine." Either God hates the sin of homosexuality and divorce, or not. Either lying is wrong, or not.When we spend our lifetime trying to figure out what's okay and what isn't, we become Pharasaic. We tend to justify our own sins. God says in His word, "Be ye holy as I am holy" and "Be ye perfect". There is a name form an organisation that covers it's activities in marketing and special effects....the world. Paul wrote, "Be not conformed to this world, but be ye transformed, by the renewing of your mind". Keith Daniel (quoting Will MacFarlane) said, "If you try to win the world by being like the world, the world will win You."With regard to Keith Green, you've got to admit, he did have a vested interest in this debate. In his defence, he'd only been around ten years in the Lord when he passed on, and he didn't do too bad for someone who burned for such a short time.CJaKfOrEsT wrote:With regard to Stavesacre, and their sordid past, do we reject the Saul of Tarsis based upon his muderous past? I have heard testimony after testimony, of people who had severe ups and downs, until they discovered the truth that is contained with Galatians 2:20, Romans 6-8 and the like, and began to truly "walk in the Spirit". Hey, I am one such as this, and I'm not the only one (you all know who you are8-)).True, one should not judge someone based on their past, and I maintain my rejecting of these assertions leveled against Salomon, aren't justified. However, I will level one of my own, in reading portions of his book, one will notice a tendancy to be offended at the fact that everyone implies that he and the band aren't truely christian. My question is, if he is saved, then why doesn't he appreciate his fellow believers concern? If they've crossed a line, then why doesn't he rebuke and correct them? If he isn't saved (which I'm in no way implying), then why doesn't he hear them out? Perhaps he does, and I've got it all wrong. Remember, we're not talking about a pew warming christian here, we are talking about someone who is a public figure, someone who is being used as a witness for christ in the world (and if he isn't, then why is he there anyway)?At the end of the day, when you come to realise that you are "a man of unclean lips, inthe midst of a people of unclean lips", what else would you expect from the mouths of those around you? Loving kindness? Mark isn't writing about "nice happy lovey Jesus loves you" stuff, he writes lyrics that are impacting, that challenge the status quo, and rebuke those who won't accept him as he is (at least that's my reading of them, and I have no source to explain them as otherwise). My only advice would be, die to the flesh and be done with it, after all isn't that the implication of your band name being a plant that's poison kills the flesh?CJaKfOrEsT wrote:Arthur Katz has said that we are not at liberty to judge, apart from what comes from revelation. And that we should alway take note that we don't have the "omniscience of God" at our beckon call, to big note ourselves as vessels of correction (check out Part 2 of "There were two tree in the garden").Then he goes on to point out that we are command to "judge righteous judgemants".CJaKfOrEsT wrote:When I listen to Stavesacre, I hear songs that say "until you work out that you can only live this 'christian' life in the power of the Holy Spirit, you're doomed to failure", to the "chritians" and "I hope you work out that their's more to reality, and that there is a Creator that will demand an account, one day", to the non believer.Again I draw on the above Rodney Howard-Browne analogy. As basis for a message not validating the messenger. In the words of Art Katz, "A miss is as good as a mile."CJaKfOrEsT wrote:If this is "meat" to me, and you should be "vegetarian" (see Romans 14) in this matter, then obey God first, don't let me take you off track. Only, consult God on the matter, and "be fully convinced in (your) mind (Rom 12:5)".I'm reminded of St. Sabas who was martyred around the fourth century by the Goths. "King Athanaric sent out orders that everyone in his land had to sacrifice to heathen gods and eat meat that had been offered to idols. If they refused, they would be put to death. Some heathens who had Christian relatives provided them with meat that hadn't been sacrificed to the idols, but Sabas refused to take this way out. He not only refused to comply with the new laws, but publicly said that those who ate the substituted meat were not true Christians. (Foxes Book of Martyrs)" Most christians today would have eaten the meat, rationalising that it wasn't sacrificed, rather than be drowned for "avoiding even the appearance of evil".Alot of christians spend time pondering on how they would stand under persecution, and whether they would reject Jesus or not. I'll give you a clue, if you can reject Him when your life isn't on the line, then what makes you think that you won't when it is?My point here is not to rebuke anyone, or to divert blame off of myself (in spite of my leveling statements at people here, who I honestly don't believe would read this. My sole purpose for doing this is to illustrate my points). I solely wish to clarify statments that I have made in the past, which I now believe to be wrong. I also wish to apologise to anyone who has taken opportunity to justify their own disobedience by my unwise words.

Aaron, brother...Reaching back to first thoughts since you have been amongst us all, now over a year ago...It's always been there but to bounce off Chanin's comments...Once again you have displayed a wonderful teachable and humble spirit. I am again, impressed, awed by your humility to come on here and admit that you are learning, that you may not be right about everything. It takes real humility to do that- and that is manly thing to do. We need more leaders who are willing to admit that they might not know all the answers, and when they are in doubt, they admit it. We should all remain teachable.There is nothing so endearing as being honest and willing to let go of anything that is not of the truth, even our own misconceptions of it. It's somewhat vague, but recall some of the more heated exchanges early on and...it's like watching a renewing of the mind in action.Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.Something in my own ignorance that was brought to light was by a grocer awhile back. How to tell the best and juiciest fruit was by their weight, seems obvious enough, but two oranges held in each hand can have a noticeable weight difference and the heavier of the two is the best and sweetest tasting, just because it contains more juice. Just wanted to say brother, the Lord has planted some choice seed within you and we are feasting on it!Scripture says, "Let God be true and every man a liar", but how many of us consider that we are one of the "every men"?"The chief of sinners" Paul said, how 'bout the leader of 'every man'? Perhaps over the top, but the tension is always present especially as this goes on further and further everyday. Still much to die to, the 'little' lies, 'half truths', even 'tithe truths', recalling Katz again, "half truth is no truth". The closer to that Light that,In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.Joh 1:4-5the more that gets exposed. The more realization that the worse man out there to deal with is ourselves.Feel completely safe in bringing these accolades to you brother, just for what they are, an encouragement and praiseworthy, knowing that it perhaps will make you a bit squeamish to hear such things or to put it from a quote rattling around in this cranium from a Christian musician on his thoughts about getting awarded for his bands work and his feelings towards it; "I don't have a file in my brain for that".... which I now believe to be wrongSweet words brother.On the opposite end, some rotten fruit that needs to be exposed; Evangelical Snobbery

Why single out music? Preachers can be rock stars too. Contemporary Christian Music is a metaphor for the church, containing both the helpful and the hurtful. Much of what is promoted as "ministry", whether it's music, preaching, or even public praying, is nothing more then stagecraft. To be sure, music is abused and idolized. The charismatic notion that God "inhabits" our electric sounds as if we can summon His ghost through the elemental magic of music seems to me like pagan ceremonialism. But this blasphemy is not the music...it's how we approach God. (simplified) On the other hand, to him who is pure I believe music can be pure. Toward the negative side, I've been in "annointed worship services" that were disappointingly vain. Yet, on the positive, I've also heard people sing U2's song "40" in a small church with heartfelt thankfulness. In either case, I don't believe the failure or success was the medium (no pun intended) but the ambition.There are some leaders, whether for music or preaching, whose ambitions are not centered on Jesus Christ. This is the real issue. Drums and electric guitars are not the culprits.Idolatry is in the heart, not the art.I waited patiently for the LordHe inclined and heard my cryHe brought me up out of the pitOut of the miry clayI will sing, sing a new songI will sing, sing a new songHow long to sing this song?How long to sing this song?How long...how long...how long...How long...to sing this songHe set my feet upon a rockAnd made my footsteps firmMany will seeMany will see and hearI will sing, sing a new songI will sing, sing a new songI will sing, sing a new songI will sing, sing a new songHow long to sing this song?How long to sing this song?How long...how long...how long...Blessings,MC

I dont see anything wrong with music, be it Christian or not. Music is music, and we spend way too much time looking for the devil hiding in the bushes. Are to have a book burning next?Ricky

Are we to have a book burning next?No, the fire must go much deeper! Then one of the seraphim flew to me, having in his hand a live coal which he had taken with the tongs from the altar.And he touched my mouth with it, and said: "Behold, this has touched your lips; your iniquity is taken away, and your sin purged.” I baptize you with water; but he who is mightier than I is coming, the thong of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie; he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.MC

rickyy38 wrote:I dont see anything wrong with music, be it Christian or not. Music is music, and we spend way too much time looking for the devil hiding in the bushes. Are to have a book burning next?Ricky,The devil isn't hiding in every bush, but then again, neither is the Holy Spirit. May I recomend the Tozer article that Mr Balog has pitched into the fray. Particularly the folowing:One convincing proof of our inherent badness is the way we manage to turn good into evil and make our very blessings a curse to us. Indeed I think a strong case can be made for the belief that sin is merely righteousness in reverse and evil but perverted good. Sin is at bottom the abuse of things in themselves innocent, an illegitimate use of legitimate gifts.To quote another man of God, Art Katz, "Doctrine is kids stuff." and "You have to be zealous for truth, people." To quote James Jacob Prasch, "Discernment isn't and option, it's a commandment."Brother, I use to think like you. Now I'm beginning to understand (as though peeking through a crack in the door) truth in it's undiluted form. One thing that a seeker of truth quickly discovers is that "real truth" is full of paradoxes. Try this one on, "The beauty of the naked truth is that it isn't pretty." When Jesus got up and said, "Unless you eat of my flesh and drink of my blood you have no part in me." that wasn't pretty. Canabalism is grotesque and barbaric, and yet Christ used this to illustrate what it means to totally submit to Him and His covenant. The reality is, that the Lord's supper is a thing of beauty, proclaiming His death until He returns.Please read the entirety of this thread, even taking the time to listen to the recomended sermons and reading the recomended articles. Hey, what do you have to lose. If we're full of it, the Holy Spirit will show you (after all, that's the kind of logic you seem to apply to the music you listen to), but if not, then you can thank us later. :-)I only say this because I stumbled into this thread as naive, but emerged mature...after monthes of wrestling with the issues raised.All the best.

I realize this thread is a bit dated, however...

A good article on this is found at http://biblebelievers.com/Rock1.html

savedtoserve

As soon as I see one of those old pictures of Stryper at the top of an article I skip right on by it.

I believe that is called discrimination. :)

I can see where you're coming from, but have to disagree. The date of an article/book doesn't negate the truth of it. Of course, there are usually different things to take into consideration as the years go by, but again that doesn't throw it out altogether. I take it you're not a "church fathers" person. :D I'm not either. :)

I used to be a listener of christian rock. I prefer the term christian heavy metal because it was the really heavy stuff. Some bands had great lyrics while others were very immature. I attended local concerts and eventually used that time to talk to people who would venture outside and get some air.

I think my favorite band was Deliverance but their 'What a Joke' cassette was too angry in tone. I also like Altar Boys, not so much in the music but how they placed the words through the music. I gravitated towards the hardcore music because I needed that intensity in music.

These days I don't listen to music alot so I don't even know what is out there for christian metal. I prefer more talk radio and public forum type stuff. Maybe it is because I am growing older? Yet, I can still go to concerts, if I wanted to and see open doors to reach out to people without pointing fingers at anyone. I think christian metal opens doors.

Just my thoughts.

In case anyone is interested below is the website of a band called 'No longer music'. They take ministry and band as one and the same and go all over the world in ministry. See what you think.

http://www.steiger.org/

"christian" rock music... Is Jesus really pleased with fleshly noise...?

Oh boy this topic again. It maybe wise for me to stay out of this one, though I have strong feelings about it I don't want to talk this conversation personal.

This topic is the type of topic that everyone has there opinion on. Everyone has their own types of music. Whether it is southern gospel. regular praise and worship, christian contemporary and so forth. It all reaches into a persons soul in different ways and I think to say words against certain music styles only serves to drive those listeners away from any message you want them to hear.

The only message you hear is noise.

You may want to listen to this sermon.

http://www.sermonaudio.com/playpopup.asp?SID=6160773411

If you do not want to hear the entire message, take it to 25:00 and start listening from there... at 40:00, something will happen!

I myself have a personal testimony similar to the one he shares. However, I won't share it right now, lest the pearls be trampled underfoot.

In Christ,
Renoncer

"As a reference point, I found many foods in Japan vile and unedible when I first tried them, and had no idea how anyone in their right mind could eat such things. Now I eat them regularly and rather enjoy them. The food was acceptable to God before I enjoyed it, and was acceptable to Him whether I approved of it or not."

Mat 15:11: Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

:-)

And.....

"Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh."

When peace rules the heart whatever sounds I make in music or speech will be peaceful...right or wrong?

PS: But please do not try to get me to eat grubs! I know they will make me vomit - just like the raw egg white did when I tried to eat it after eating some mushrooms I later questioned...The egg white did not make me vomit, it was the idea! Really!

As a musician, I know music comes in all shapes and sizes. I didn't want to get involved in this thread because I have spent to much time on this topic with you sister ginny and I would rather keep our friendship intact rather than "win a debate" when indeed this is a matter of opinion. How can I say that? well what sounds peaceful to me may not be peaceful to you. But just because its not peaceful to you doesn't mean its wrong to listen to or evil of any kind.

I can make a beautiful ballad to the devil worshiping him and make it with the sweetest and most peaceful sounding music, I could even disguise the lyrics you wouldn't even know it was about him in any way shape or form. But if I did this the song would be evil to the very core of its existance but you would be none the wiser because it fits your "peaceful" criteria.

Intent and more specifically lyrical intent is one of the only ways to know what is going on and even then the listener has to ask themselves what does this song mean to me. Yet another way is the lifestyle of the artist, this isn't something that advocates of musical and artistic expression ignore, but examine closely.

Ephesians 5:19 "Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;"

Sounds pretty clear to me.

1 Thessalonians 5:22 "Abstain from all appearance of evil."

Sorry but taking scripture out of context is hardly a justification of your point. Being that "hymns" which you are suggesting were a I don't know a few centuries off even exsisting.

Webster's dictionary defines it as "a song or ode in praise or honor of God, a deity, a nation, etc."

Everyone has their own song to God in their heart, who are you to say my "style" is wrong or unbiblical when the Word of God gives us a clear freedom in worship.

Using your logic all the hymns we have in exsistance would be unbiblical due to the fact that the creators of the hymns you know and love were at their times considered "evil" and "worldly" all words you shamelessly throw at Contemporary Christian music. In fact the only hymns that would be acceptable would be the hymns the Apostles and the early church sang at the creation of the Church. Could you please name a few tunes they use to sing, what key they sang them in, and what time signature and beat they sang them in?

I do not know whether this will add anything to this discussion...but will say this when I saw this thread resurrected I thought "Oh, no! not again!"

I shared about the sound, whether it sounds peaceful or not...

Perhaps I should share a little more in detail of how I regard music at this stage in life. It will be subjective but you know yours is as well!

When I was growing up in the 50s and early 60s the music for the most part was not all that controversial as far as sound. There were many singers who sang gospel as well as 'love songs'. The sound was the same. (This was in addition to the classical music.) Some of the well-known singers were Louvin Brothers, Stuart Hamblin, Johnny Cash, Jimmie Davis, Tennessee Ernie Ford, Kitty Wells, Elvis Presley, Blackwood Brothers.

Fast forward to the 60s when the Beatles came on the scene. Music sounds began to change radically, although it began slowly it accelerated from that point on.

Today we have access to the internet, knowledge is wide spread. We learn what the lifestyles are of current music groups. My taste in music today is shaped by the lifestyle of its performers. Sound makes little difference. If it is a sound I naturally enjoy but I learn these people are adulterers, promote the gay agenda, I say 'forget it'! There is other music I can listen to.

I do find it very unsettling in my spirit when I sense that people are using the gospel to get rich. It is as though they are making merchandise of the Gospel. Now, where does this leave me?

On the other hand I find it more tolerable to listen to music that is not supposed to be 'Christian'. For example, I enjoy Andre Rieu's music. It is pretty, but sure do not like his interpretation of the 'Hallelujah Chorus'. On the other hand, how edifying is it?

Is this subjective? Perhaps. But this is where I am at. Life is short as I have been around the block quite a few times. My three score and ten years is getting awfully close - 5 1/2 years away. How long will I live? Only God knows and I want to live for Him - the devil is working harder then ever before to make life miserable/difficult. The fact the body is wearing out only amplifies this difficulty. My goal is to be ready and what I listen to I want it to be something I can feel comfortable having the Lord Jesus sitting here with me listening to it as well.

God bless.

As one who likes to sing and is passionate about christian music.

Philippians 4:8 NKJV
Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy--meditate on these things.

What I find is that with some christians is there is simply no good christian music out there so i will simply listen to secular music instead because I think the doctrine of christian music is too dodgy.

I think it was one artist stated is that we are going to be singing songs to our saviour now. So we better start now.

As I have studied people from Fanny Crosby who was sick of singing the Psalms and Issac Watts read there biographies.
I was even shocked that the Psalms had some cananite influence read Johanna G vos and ungers Bible dictionary. I was shocked. This does not make secular music right.
With the abundance of christian music out there is it not correct to have some sort of standard.

A W Tozer said that I would not give a penny to something that does not glorify god. Should we not be the same.

Does are music have roots, would we listen to the beatles if they said that they would be greater than Jesus

http://www.mindspring.com/~brucec/wilker.htm

This was David wilkensons incident with rock music. Music is not simply a song it passes not only theology and the worldview of what the person is singing if the person is a satanist or maybe into New age this world view will come across in there music and affect the way that you think.

Luke 16:15 NKJV
And He said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.

If we had god listening to the things we listen to and jesus cesoring the music we listen or in fact the media we watch. Would you let jesus listen to that or does this piece of music hold up to what it says in the bible.

in the secular industry we have people who have failed relationships and failed marriages producing our songs, we also have this in the christian industry.

To me this really should not be a topic of discussion simply because if we love jesus we would want to hang around anything to do with him.

One of the questions that i still struggle with is , what happens if you have a biblical song say from a dodgy theological source such as hillsong.

Another aspect is we cannot expect to capture the songs of the past in a bottle and not be open to anything new. We sing the songs of past revivals hoping for the next one.

Duncan cambell said that songwriting was a major part of the scottish revival.

What would you do like me if you got caught in a place playing demonic records which sounds like screaming and you are screaming inside for the sanity of christian music.
Shall we not sing the songs of Zion. I have christian songs that I sing to myself when evangelsing in notting hill carnival the music was so loud that my ear plugs did not work. I was singing christian songs to myself from everything to matt redman to mighty to save to how great thou art. I was singing every christian song i could think of.
When I was working in the factory my christian music on my phone was my lifeline to think about jesus. I even listen to the bible on my phone and the only reason it is not on the kettle or the toaster or doorbell cannot play mp3's.

To me I rife through the christian songs that I like on amazon or itunes. We have such a heritage of christian songs that people in china or india or north korea do not have access to. What songs will you sing if you were in jail or facing a terrible time will you sing the song of moses or the song of the devil.
I cannot do nothing or even stay holy and such a mess without jesus. There are so many new songs with great heritages such as the older hymns.
Ron or philologos said on one of his sermons that mediating on one verse is what christian songwriters do. some christian songs remind us of scripture and our saviour.
I do not know how to test the difference other than it glorifies god but i think the medium is important as I cannot stand rap.

I am actually not against all Christian contemporary music. But the Lord personally dealt me regarding Christian metal and those other much more heavier stuffs almost 4 years ago. When I was not yet a Christian I used be a vocalist for our high school rock band. I used to be addicted with secular genres like Thrash-metal, grunge, metal and hardcore stuffs. And all of those times I do have the light that what I'm doing, singing and living for is an abomination to the eyes of our Holy God. And thank God He saved me when I was 17 years old. Although there was one time few a weeks after I got saved that we tried to play at our college event, still God and circumstances didn't allowed that. I never have returned into riotous lifestyle again and never attended gigs again. And the next time I attended the biggest wicked rock event here was when I open-air preached there and testified how God saved delivered me from that wicked lifestyle.

But what happened after I got saved was; I still didn't give up listening to those so called 'Christian' metal bands. Though I gave up secular music and the vices and lifestyle that involves it I still have my little foxes and hagar in my life. Though not openly, I had still followed the bands like mortification, zao, norma jean, as I lay dying, demonhunter, underoath,No Innocent Victim, august burns red etc etc. And I become too defensive and harsh against those who condemns it. I thought that it is just a missional way to reach the punks and the metal-heads, yet, I know in myself that I just love the old man and doesn't want to took that old garment off yet. I often visit Christian rock apologetics site those days trying to learn how to humiliate the anti-rock 'pharisees' because ya know Jesus is 'the rock of ages' and that davidic worship did 'shout' and had clashing cymbals, also take note that the apostle Paul became 'all things to all men.' Ya know it's all in the lyrics and in the heart not in the rhythm. Didn't ya notice that John the baptist was like a metal head, who's harsh in his words and dressed up unconventionally?

But something inside of me bothers me and that is the thought that 'why I haven't seen anyone from those men that I am following having that victorious Christian living that I'm longing for? How could they play along with those wicked bands that do sings for satan and mocks Jesus? Why most of them swear like an unbeliever? Why do they got drunk with alcohol? Where's heart for the missions? Where's the heart to prepare and build the Church in purity in relation for the Lord's coming? and such and such.

The breakthrough came when I entered bible school. Our director at that bible school was Norman Holmes. And I remembered the first week when he shared about the experience he at one fellowship of Churhes, where some of the Churches decided to take metal music for them to attract the world. And it divided the fellowship, and while the discussion is going he saw in a vision that the angel of the Lord is putting the names of those who chooses not to compromise, in the book of remembrance, and that put the fear of the Lord in his heart and cry out to God for him to be part of that book. And my friend, who's also a Christian rocker, and I thought 'oh oh we are in the wrong bible school.' But as the days pass by in that bible school, we experienced the true presence of God in worship that showed us that the Holy God we served is looking for a much purer worship in Spirit and in truth. I have no other argument to counter that, it's the very presence of God which for me had thought and still teaching me a lot about worshiping Him. Bro. Dave Wilkerson challenged those Christian rockers to practice the presence personally of God for 30 minutes and see the difference. I think the babylonian spirit and seed impartation from it is the thing that we should be avoiding from it. But it's up to you when you still want that defeated Christian life that that music would impart to you. The sad thing also is it also helped many church kids to think that they are Christian already because thay do some singing service to God. I am not condemning anyone here, but I'm just giving you warning and testifying what the Lord has done in my Christian walk regarding this area.

As I have read these comments,I came across one that briefly mentioned,Nee.
Could you have been talking about,Watchman Nee?

I have combed through and cannot find it again.

I remember Art Katz,(in one of his tapes) once having something to say about
what Watchman Nee`s warning about music.I have several of Watchman Nee`s books .
Could someone tell me what book that is in?

I believe music/songs can be a blessing to our Lord's heart/ears
The Precious Lord puts them in our spirits to encourage us IN Him.

The Lord has a plumb line in EVERYTHING.
.What is is trying to draw us to?That is why we must `be led by the Spirit of God.'..A mighty drawing of His Grace to usward.

Lovingly ,

Elizabeth

Elizabeth,

I scanned a bit and found a poster mentioning Nee in passing.
The poster is crsschk, posted on 2004/9/4 7:23. Long time ago, sister! :-) Crsschk - Mike Balog - used to be one of the moderators here on SI.

ginnyrose

EDIT: I kept on reading more old posts and found one who mentioned Art Katz. It was posted by CKakForest:
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?forum=35&topic_id=2872&post_id=39759&viewmode=thread&order=1#39759

It is long.

Ephesians 5:18-20 "And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ."

If you are filled with the Spirit, do you have a choice about what music you are going to listen to? Should you not let God decide what music you are going to listen to or sing? Does God decide what honors and glorifies Him or do you?

Ecclesiastes 3:11 "He hath made every thing beautiful in his time...."

God has a stanard of what is beautiful. That does not leave us to decide what music (or anything else) we think is beautiful or not.
I do not know what that standard is, so I am not saying Rock music is bad. But are you trying to see how much like the world you can get and still consider yourself Christ-like? If God told you to get rid of your music, would you?

I did not bring up my standards on purpose. I do not want anybody to judge my post by my music standards. I am not trying to judge anybody, just think about the questions.

The Bible gives us the examples of music in Ephesians: psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs. It is not taking it out of context when applying this scripture to today's life and type of music. Are we worshipping Jesus? Do we seek to please Him? Or, do we want to copy the world, the flesh and the devil? Does the music appeal to the flesh or cause us to worship? Revivals of true religion are accompanied by godly music, not fleshly music.

On this tract we're going to examine Contemporary Christian Music....Before I was saved, rock music was my life. A former rock guitarist, (and yes, I still play the guitar) I know the love for rock music people have. But I also know the source and effects of rock music. I have spent thousands of hours researching rock music.
Music is very important in the spiritual life of a child of God. And the wrong music can spiritually destroy the child of God.

On this tract we're going to examine Contemporary Christian Music....Before I was saved, rock music was my life. A former rock guitarist, (and yes, I still play the guitar) I know the love for rock music people have. But I also know the source and effects of rock music. I have spent thousands of hours researching rock music.
Music is very important in the spiritual life of a child of God. And the wrong music can spiritually destroy the child of God.

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For each person it has a different effect, something that I would remind many is Christians are violent men and women on the inside, we war, war on what? Sin. We are to be violent on the inside but peaceful to people on the outside, which is what I have heard Zac Poonen say serveral time.

For me personally often times Christian rock is what kept me battling sin (yes with the Holy Spirit) This is probably not the best example but most sporting events will play music before and during the game, what for? to pump up the crowd and pump up the players. This is what Christian Rock does for me it pumps up my heart with Godly lyrics to press into the Father and continue in my faith.

I can even honestly say with the Help of the Lord Jesus Christ, I came out of a very heavy depression where I would contemplate suicide, one of the means to keep calling and beaconing me to Him was by avenue of "Christian Rock Music"

Do I accredit my salvation to Christian Rock music? No, that was Christ through and through but He certianly used it to played a role of encouragement where the church and their hymns had failed (for me personally keep that in mind). Also know I have a deep respect for the hymns and what they mean to those that enjoy them dearly I only wish the feeling was a mutual thing rather than bashing a genre you don't understand nor have any intention of trying to understand.

"For me personally often times Christian rock is what kept me battling sin (yes with the Holy Spirit) This is probably not the best example but most sporting events will play music before and during the game, what for? to pump up the crowd and pump up the players. This is what Christian Rock does for me it pumps up my heart with Godly lyrics to press into the Father and continue in my faith." - mguldner

Music in sports is for pumping the emotions of people. Brother Zac refers some people listening to message as Pep talk. In sports people hear from their coach a firry pep talk that will motivate them for that Game and again the coach needs to give them one more Pep talk.
To Christians who get motivated by music to fight against sin are those who get inspired by pep talks. A true fight is spiritual not emotional. True work of Holy spirit is spiritual and not emotional.

I personally do not prefer rock music and I do not advertise it as well, because I feel the singers glorify them self instead of God. I am not against you listening to them. You can be much more Godlier than me even if you listen to rock music and there is no doubt in my mind. But saying that rock music turns you and fires you up clearly tells me that you are in an emotional battle.

Please forgive me if I have hurt you, I just wanted to share the truth about the work of Holy Spirit that I have witnessed in my life.

Dear Krispy,

I don’t think I made it clear. I am not saying that encouragement is wrong. I am saying emotionalism is wrong. Even in my life I have heard many preachers like Paul Washer, Zac, David Wilkerson etc. But it definitely encouraged me to live for God but I let it hit my emotions and not piercing it deep into my spirit. It was my fault and not the preachers fault. That is why after a week again I needed a message to motivate me again. Instead once I came out of this emotional Christianity, I was able to take in God's word into my spirit both by reading and hearing directly into my spirit. Instead of just firing my emotions. This lasted for ever and helped me to fight every time. This is what God meant in new testament promise by saying I will write my laws in your heart and not in stones anymore.
You can ask me why I need to read the word of God again if it hits my spirit and keeps reminding me every time?
The answer is, every time I read God reveals me something in my life that needs correction. I repent and then set things right in God's eyes. If the word hit my emotions alone then my repentance will not be a permanent one. That is why all these emotional Christians keep falling into same Sin again and again instead of moving up their Christian life.
Please judge your own life based on what I have said and make a decision between emotional and spiritual.

Hi Endzone, thanks for sharing it.
You should also know this that we cannot blame all band based on this one band.
One thing is most of these modern day band do it for money, and Jesus clearly said you cannot serve two masters. There is no exception. You cannot do God's work and at the same time earn money out of it.
Also some of them are songs based on God's words so we cannot say that they write rubbish all the time. But not all Christains have the maturity to differentiate what is God's word and what is not. So it is better to hear the widely accepted hyms written by proven Godly men rather than these bands.

I have to totally agree with Krispy.

Endzone...your post is slander. By your own admission you have NO evidence except that YOU SAY you met what appears to be a lady who sells her body..from your description. YOU SAY this unknown person just lays out this information. And that you of course count it as true and just post it here. You should absolutely remove that post. It is unethical.. and possibly against the law.

By the way, I have never heard any music by POD to my knowledge so it isn't personal to me.

Endzone..it does make me wonder...what were you doing there asking this girl about the most money she ever made? I must also say your description of

"a beautiful 20-year-old white girl..working on the strip..My hotel there was right on Pacific Highway and at ground zero for all the action....an all nighter with this really hot and cute 20 year old working girl."

I wasn't there..but your words make one stop and consider your verbage.

Judge a band by its lyrics and the fruit of its members..THAT IS VERIFYABLE... not what some piece of gossip says. Your words and actions are the fruit that must be good in our life and seen in others to know where their heart actually is.

This thread is sort of- deteriorating, shall we say. :)

Someone needs to strike up the tune of, "Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God..." Lol.

Having said that, though, I do think this is a very important topic. Let's leave personal remarks out though. It doesn't contribute to the topic at hand. ;)

mguldner said,

"For me personally often times Christian rock is what kept me battling sin (yes with the Holy Spirit) This is probably not the best example but most sporting events will play music before and during the game, what for? to pump up the crowd and pump up the players. This is what Christian Rock does for me it pumps up my heart with Godly lyrics to press into the Father and continue in my faith."

Are you focusing on the words or the tune. If your focus is on the words, it would not matter if it is Rock or whatever. by your quote, it sounds like your focus is not on the words.

I enjoyed the "hymns and spiritual songs" yesterday. There was no question what they said or sounded like. They glorified God.

Actually quite the opposite, my focus has always been the words, its those that choose to bash the "Christian rock" style that focus on the tune. I agree completely with you the words really are what matter in a song, we must ask ourselves What is the song saying. Its why I said Godly Lyrics as oppose to Godly Style of music.

There are people that have done remakes of the hymns in a rock fashion and those would still get bashed completely because its not the prefered "style"

SamH said:

"mguldner said,

'For me personally often times Christian rock is what kept me battling sin (yes with the Holy Spirit) This is probably not the best example but most sporting events will play music before and during the game, what for? to pump up the crowd and pump up the players. This is what Christian Rock does for me it pumps up my heart with Godly lyrics to press into the Father and continue in my faith.' "

It is the opposite. It is when we are deflated that the LORD meets with us.

Recently I acquired an old pump organ. It really makes the notes sound nice. Unfortunately, when you quit pumping, no matter how you play the keys, you can not hear anything.

It would be a sad thing to get so addicted to the sound that one could no longer hear the Sweetness of the silence.

"KK I apologize for discussing this. But I believe it to be a fact about POD. I don't believe POD is a Christian band either. I really don't know much about them. Maybe one of their members is a Christian. I couldn't name one song they did. And I'm not doing this to brag on my sexual sin although I must say it is kind of shocking. I want to get past this very bad part of my life which has hurt me very much--both physically and spiritually.

But, if somebody is going to tell me POD is a Christian band, I'm going to tell them why I think they aren't. "

Yeah I also don't think they are Christian band either. You see I'm not against all contemporary music. But most of the testimonies of these bands, that are making a lot of money, is kind a shameful and disgrace to the name of Christ. I used to be a fan of POD because of all the bands that I know they are the only one who talks about Jesus at their interviews. And I too get offended before whenever I read articles against them, But seriously I have considered the issues like; how could they play along with the wicked bands who boldly blasphemes the name of jesus? Why do they cuss like an unbeliever at their interviews? and all those sorts. And God showed me that they are not the 'ministers' that should be leading the way for the young people of today.

I don't think I ever considered POD christian, like you I really don't know much about them and the only song I recall of theirs that had any weight to it was "Youth of the Nation" which was a song about Columbine when it happened. I remember listening to that song I getting the message, I then borrow a CD from a friend and as I listened to the Lyrics thought "Wow I am not a POD fan." This would be a primo example of looking not only at the lyrics but the lifestyle of the artist.

I remember reading a quote "I'm not so much concerned about whether you're right or wrong, but if you're authentic." This is right now what my heart demands Authenticity and in our day and age this can be hard to find.

Really was that necessary?

But I mean was it necessary within the context of what I was saying?

Jenny Rose,

Thank you for taking the time to help,with the artical by Watchman Nee.

In the meantime, I came accross the book` The Latent Power of the Soul,
by him.

Concerning the Forum here:
Hebrews 4:12says `For the WORD of God is Living, and Powerful,
and Sharper than any to-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing
asunder of Soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a Discerner of the Thoughts and intents of the Heart.

Should we NOT be SURE..It is not our SOUL trying to control.. ..lead ..direct us and NOT the Lord`s Spirit ? Is there a necesity ?

Oh and ,by the way Jenny, I really appreciated the little artical you put in:
`Respect Transforms Marriage'
' ...I was able to pass that on ..Thank you,

Thank You Lord for this Most Beautiful day here that You have given US,

Elizabeth

Elizabeth,

You bought a good point. The word of God pierces our soul and hits our spirit. Only God's word has the power. No Music can do it. So people saying I am getting motivated by music are those who serve Lord by Soul and not spirit. It is not wrong or sin to be emotional (soulish) but it is not what God intended us to be. God has given us a Holy spirit to serve him with all our heart (spirit). A Soulish person who is insipred by music is like one who constructs his house on mud, though it appears like it is standing it will fall when it faces heavy winds. A spiritual Christain will build his house using God's word alone that will pierce deep into his soul to form a strong foundation on the Spirit. This house will last for ever.

I personally feel modern day music (rock music) has turned young people ( am also young only 28) to this cheap emotional Christianity. Great men of God like Brother Zac has seen this and are advising us not to fall for such music. There are people in this thread who just hear these men and follow them without asking any question and blessed are they. But there are also people who want to validate these advice and question them. I pray that they will soon understand the truth that the elders are saying and see an evidence of their own house being weak because of this cheap modern day Christianity.

For those who want to argue that music can also turn my spirit towards God, if it is true, then why did God give us Holy Spirit? He could have given us holy music.
By music I mean the heavy metals and sounds made by musical instruments.
In short I personally believe that musical instrument in a Godly song should be to glorify the lyrics and not to dominate the lyrics and the lyrics is to glorify God. If you find a Godly song dominated by heavy musical instrument then it is not serving the primary purpose.