PEOPLE DIE AFTER BEING “HEALED” IN THE LAKELAND OUTPOURING

After all the debate on this forum concerning Todd Bentley, the truth now is finally revealed once and for all.

This article originated from the Fundamental Baptist Information Service.

Krispy

[b]PEOPLE DIE AFTER BEING “HEALED” IN THE LAKELAND OUTPOURING[/b]
(Friday Church News Notes, May 15, 2009)

An investigation by World magazine has discovered that at least two of the people “healed” during Todd Bentley’s healing crusade in Lakeland, Florida, have died of their diseases.

Following is an excerpt: [i]“Christopher Fogle, of Cedar Rapids, Iowa, loved to fish. It was a break from his fast-paced, 25-year career with the Perkins Restaurant chain. But when Fogle got severe cancer, his relaxing fishing trips, which he sometimes took with his children, ended. It was a devastating blow for the active 45-year-old. But for Todd Bentley, television preacher and self-proclaimed healer, the cancer represented an opportunity to ‘proclaim the glory of God.'

At the height of what many called a revival, WORLD asked Bentley to talk about the healings, like Fogle’s, and asked for a list of people who had been healed at the services. His associates told me Bentley was out of the country and a list could not be produced.

But six weeks and more than a dozen requests later, the ministry eventually sent a list of 13 names. Fogle was No. 12 on the list, along with this note: ‘Healed through the Outpouring and is back to fishing.’

That was on Aug. 8, 2008. There was just one problem. Two weeks earlier, on July 22, Christopher A. Fogle--according to his obituary in the Keokuk (Iowa) Daily Gate City, ‘left this life . . . after a courageous battle with cancer.’

A review of the list nearly one year later reveals that Fogle is not the only person ‘healed’ who is now dead. When I called Phyllis Mills, of Trinity, N.C., on April 22, to hear the testimony of her healing, a polite family member said, ‘Phyllis passed away a few days ago. In fact, we’re on our way to her funeral now.’

Mills, 66 at the time of her death, had lung cancer and was undergoing aggressive treatments when she was, according to the list, ‘healed at the revival.’ Mills ‘was taking radiation, but was sent home,’ according to notes on Bentley’s list, with ‘no trace of cancer in her body’” (“Heal or Heel,” World, May 23, 2009).[/i]

The Bentley crusade ended in scandal in August 2008 after Bentley announced that he was separating from his wife. In November 2008, Bentley’s Fresh Fire ministry said that he was guilty of adultery with a “former employee,” and on March 9, 2009, Rick Joyner announced that Bentley had married the same employee.

My friends, God has given us clear instructions in Scripture about healing, and James 5 does not describe a raucous “healing crusade.” We believe in divine healing for today through prayer, but we don’t believe in Pentecostal showmen who pretend to apostolic healing gifts that they clearly do not possess.

Rick Joyner and Bill Johnson are reportedly working with Bentley to 'restore' him (because they evidently have this power an authority) back into the false fray. I'm not suprised by this, almost immediately after the Lakeland incident Bill Johnson began putting Humpdy Dumpdy back together again to save face for supporting him to begin with. He said (paraphrasing) "if we throw this poor man out we will get a lot of applause from many but we will also be fueling the 'religious spirit'".

Translation- if you don't accept this false prophet back, your spirit is religious and not of Christ. (note that the religious spirit is not someone looking for signs, wonders, tall extra-biblical tales of heavenly experiences, and divine 'Bams!', but those who won't accept wolves back into the fold.)

This wasn't just about immorality. As a matter of fact his affair just substantiated the same character that deceived, lied, and manipulated blind sheep into giving him a lot of money while giving false hope to those who were desperate for healing.

The wayward church will continue to be tone deaf to the true prophets of today who challenge us to abide in Christ as a transforming and regenerate work in our personal character. To be in His likeness. And to do the work that glorifies Him and not the man/woman.

Any true leader who falls into serious sin needs to repent and humble themselves then accept a seat in the back of the line. Watch out for those who restore fallen so-called leadership quickly, they are most likely just rebuilding for another day of deception.

[b]ccrider[/b]... Amen brother!

I did not know that they were planning to restore him. Unbelievable. These people like Joyner and others are out of control.

This whole thing about the religious spirit reminds me of what they always say about the Berean-type Christians who examine their doctrines... they say "touch not the Lord's annointed!"

Well, if they were truly the Lord's annointed I wouldn't touch them!

Krispy

PS... they have to restore him because if they dont it will proove (once again!) that Bob Jones is a false hillbilly prophet.

May I say several things and I pray my words be "salt".

First, I had heard several Todd Bentley CD's YEARS before Lakeland, listened to about 5 minutes, and it just didnt speak in to my heart and spirit, so I put it in the dustbin without rancor, it just didnt build me up, and as you know we all work out our own salvation with fear and trembling, so it was in the dustbin. end of that story.

Then came "Lakeland", and I felt that it was not of the Lord, but very mindful of Paul's "whatever is" exhortation in
Philippians 4:8-9(ESV) I didnt say anything, God the Holy Ghost will reveal all.

But this I say, IN SPITE of Todd, there were souls saved, or restored, At lakeland and my pray is that they recognize Todd for what he was, a broken soul "playing" with the Deep Things of God. An "Uzziah" trying to "steady the Ark", and is lucky that God didnt do to him what He did to Uzziah....and I do pray that he be restored for service to the Lord, and not the vanity of his imaginations.

But I want to say this, deserved at it may be, Todd's off base ministry being brought to the Light, and exposed for what it was, and the ensuing scorn heaped upon him, and the inevitable downfall of Bentley, I noticed that very little on this forum was ever said about God exposing Ted Haggard, pastor of a mega-congregation, head of the NAE(!)the National Association of Evangelicals, and one of the most outspoken critics of homosexual marriage, a lead "warrior" of "value voters" in this phony fleshly political struggle called the "culture war", being exposed, BY GOD, as being a male whore-mongering homosexual and crystal meth addict, all the while standing up in front of thousands of followers of Jesus every week, "preaching" the Gospel.

why is that? Todd bentley in his vainglorious foolishness was just a silly momentary 21st century version of a backslidden tent preacher, while Ted Haggard "pastored" thousands, and led a parachurch organization with tens of millions of saints, and brought untold reproach upon the New Testament congregations throughout the land, but in the Grace of God, elders within the Body have attempted to bring him into restoration, and how is this "restoration" going? and what effect has his soul rending fall had on the witness WE ALL labour so hard to those who do not know Christ? Think of how many this sordid episode stumbled and/or drove away from Christ, with the words, "They're all hypocrites!"

I'm going to post up some video's, of Haggard and his words, who made these video's? I would have to say "stumbled ones",

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOpMsuz_uK4]Ted Haggard on "sex"--his own words[/url]

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGx11vZ_7uY&feature=related]Ted Haggard on Larry King[/url]

(a sympathetic Larry King, but notice how Ted doesnt seem repentant or contrite...I said "seem", as I cannot see into a man's heart)

here's a link to the HBO documentary. "The Trials of Ted Haggard"

[url=http://www.hbo.com/events/trialsoftedhaggard/index.html]The Trials of Ted Haggard[/url]

that's enough video links. Now if you've watched them, the Love of Christ will move on your heart to prayer for this man's restoration IN Christ, yes? I do.

Therefore I pose this question, in the same way we would pray for Ted's restoration with the Help of the Holy Ghost in love and truth, do you not think that Todd bentley deserves the same.....or..

taking this line even further, praying in that same broken-heartness for all homosexual people, or for all who are being strangled by the devil in their terrible addiction to meth.

Christ compels us, His love compels us to pray, in love, for Ted, Todd, and millions of others, so laden with sin, and the death that comes from not knowing God thru Jesus.

we can't pray and love as such in our flesh, we despise such as these, but thats why the Holy Ghost is refered to as the Comforter. He is the One Who burnishes our hearts with sweet love, to pour ourselves out in prayer....not in pointing fingers, love expressed thru prayer. I believe God, He is merciful and loving, lets try and walk like Him

A sure sign of a carnal Christian is one who presumes to know the intention of their brother.

I don't think anyone here has said that what happened to Bentley is 'what he deserved' in a punitive fashion. No one worth their salt glories in the fall of another or wants to see anyone wrapped up in falseness,confusion, and a break up of a family. But let me just say that the facts speak for themselves with desperate souls going for healing only to be taken to their grave in the hope that a faith healer claimed these gifts. The facts are that this man had extra-biblical doctrine and was espousing it to thousands of sheep.

And you are right, God is more interested in restoring the character instead of the ministry.... which is why people shouldn't claim the ability to restore anyone back to ministry. Restoration with God is first and foremost, restoration to leadership is a whole different thing... and God warns us about it. The problem is that those who have fallen want to resume leadership right away like the pastor at my former church after hiding major sin for almost a decade. They act more like politicians than Godly men ashamed and broken. Look at Paul Cain. Years of 'restoration' under the instruction of biblical clinicians yet he came right out of his therapy and passed a prophetic mantle to someone who was deceiving many. I want God's sovereign and merciful redemption to reign supreme for these men in the end but I won't hide the damage they presently do or sanction ministries that make false claims and develop extra-biblical doctrine. The same man who is 'restoring' Todd Bentley reportedly states that there is an eighth church in Revelation. Do you believe this doctrine? If not, then is this fruit?

"A spiritual Christian will always seek the restoration of a fallen brother." Abide in Him

This is exactly the presumption that these false prophets play on. There's a difference between a minister who falls into sin and one who operates a deceptive ministry outside of God's word. One's a brother, the other is a wolf pretending to be a brother. Unless we know the difference we cannot foretell and warn of the likes of this man... which was done on this thread a year ago. Someone who took heed to from this forum that extra-biblical doctrine 'IS NOT FRUIT' may have spared themselves, and their families, the false hope of healing.

"The gifts and calling of God are without repentance. A minister that has the gifts operating can be living in sin and the gifts will still operate in his ministry. However there will not be pure flow. Jesus said that you will know them by their fruit, not by their gifts. The gifts can be both counterfeited and imitated." Abide in Him

Where does it stipulate in the Bible the difference in 'pure flow' from 'mixed flow' of gifts if someone who is a minister of Christ is in sin? The gifts are by God, for God. The devil counterfeits, otherwise it's not counterfeit. Many ministers were claiming that the Lakeland ministry was a mixture of pure flow and counterfeit. No such thing. Either it has the foundation of God to see it through for His glory or it does not. You do not see any 'mixture' or an absence of 'pure flow' in the Apostles after Pentecost when it came to their gifts or their fruit. They may have made some bad judgements but they were not claiming something they didn't have nor promising something that could not be delivered.

If gifts are counterfeited and imitated then they are not of God which says something about the minister's character. Gifts may not be fruit but false claims of gifts and false extra-biblical tales of being gutted on a table in heaven by angels that are told to woo unsuspectiong crowds lacks fruit. Deceivers will lack fruit, this has proven to be true and was true in this case. That has nothing to do with anyone getting what they deserved... it is what it is and history will repeat itself in the church if no notice is given.

Paul Washer was also right in saying that people can be saved DESPITE the false ministering because God is sovereign. I thank God for His mercy for that... that He can pluck someone straight out of a bad situation because they are seeking Him.

...............................................

edit>>>> All this being said, I regret and apologize for the Humpdy Dumpdy analogy. I can see how that can be taken as crass. I was simply trying to imply that there's an effort by many to restore their own reputation by restoring Bentley and his ministry. I've tracked many of these people (ie Rick Joyner, Paul Cain, and others) and have read their books given to me by a family member when I was a new Christian. God has shown me in no uncertain terms through the past several years that these type of ministries are false. The Holy Spirit is not our personal treasure chest nor a comedian who makes us laugh uncontrollably as I have witnessed many times watching these events on video. I believe the Pentecost accusation of drunkenness had to do with speaking in other tongues which seemed like weird, slurred speech to those who witnessed. There was nothing in the Bible about uncontrollable laughter and unfulfilled promises of healing. I come off as cold and crass in my frustration but I take these so called 'outpourings' and these various prophetic ministries very seriously.

There were some good things that came out of Lakeland, believe it or not. It seemed to bring things to head; and to make the difference between the holy and profane obvious. Jesus said, "Do not think that I came to bring Peace to the Earth, No, but rather DIVISION!"

The bible says that the HARVEST is the end of the Age, and fundamentally a harvest of Wheat and Tares. The tares are being harvested in this period also; the poison counterfeit plant.... the wheat to the "BARN", and the tares to the "FIRE."

Everyone there who endorsed him, and coronated him...[ .. to lead the Great End Time Revival until Jesus comes..], and layed hands and prayed for him, are just as culpable as Todd. They identified themselves as liars, and a people of no discernment at best. They received his most corrupt doctrines of mystic transcendentalism, along with their manifestation of lying power...all the fairies and imps and angels that Bentley frequently called upon and testified of.

It was the most controversial display of new age mysticism ever in the modern church, on a wholesale level. Hundreds of thousands visited Lakeland, and millions viewed it live on the internet. God surely allowed it, and the wonderful thing now, is that the smoke is clearing up, and we can more clearly SEE the EVIL in it, and it's supporters.

No one, who possesses the indwelling Holy Spirit of God, and had an inkling of a grounding in the Word of God, could stand this travesty. It was nauseating to them. LIES, LIES, LIES! ...and now, as the lying fruit becomes obvious...that there were NO HEALINGS!....that there were NO RESURRECTIONS from the DEAD!...it is clear who is profane, and the authors of these lies.

Everyone of those who have, and continue to endorse and support this adulterous , thieving liar are marked. They are shamed, except in their own circles, and I rejoice. This is a good thing. It just the back side of the sickle that throws the tares to the left.

"One of the things that came to mind about this is not only if people would want others to get what they deserve, but would want to administer it themselves. Or would even want to go beyond that, like a man that would continue to kick and to beat and to bash a man to death that is fallen before him." ChrisJD

Talk about kicking and bashing someone when they are down, how about taking a terminally ill brother and promising healing. Who wants to go tell their family and children that it just wasn't meant to be even though the prophet said so as thousands witnessed. This is why faith is jaded, this is why Christ cannot be glorified, this is why 'a word from the Lord' can be accepted as a word even if the Bible says nothing to that effect.

Who gets what they deserve isn't the issue, we all deserve hell. But not all of us preach a false Gospel, not all of us make promises in vain in the name of Jesus and deceive with tall boastings. Their is a difference between simply being a sinner and deceiving many. One needs Christ and knows it, the other uses Christ and proves his shame. The last days will be full of these just as the Bible states. We are told if someone preaches a Gospel other than the Gospel we have that we put up with it easy enough. Was Paul kicking and bashing?

2 Corinthians 11:4-10 (New International Version)
4For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough. 5But I do not think I am in the least inferior to those "super-apostles." 6I may not be a trained speaker, but I do have knowledge. We have made this perfectly clear to you in every way.

Discern for yourselves if one is speaking a different Jesus or Gospel that is outside of what is in Scripture, but don't accuse those who take issue with a false movement as bashing a poor brother who misled others and their families into thinking they were healed as an offering plate was being circulated in the meantime. These are the historical facts of Lakeland and it wasn't hindsight that many on this forum saw it for what it was and warned accordingly before the fallout.

Lakeland was the testing field for the "lying signs and wonders" to come.

The man kneed people in their stomachs and performed many things that were demonically supernatural not only in Lakeland but in other "shows" - throwing light balls and calling them "angels".

This was a case of full-blown demon possession in action.

Jesus warned us of these false prophets with lying signs and wonders.

Ananais and Saphira lied to the Holy Spirit and the man that Paul blinded by the Spirit did 10,000 times less than this man has - yet we find the mild posts on this thread too harsh - speaking of the demon possessed defiling for filthy lucre thousands of ignorant 'christians'?

GOD help us when there are these type in the majority if we can't discern this one.

ChrisJD, I may have misunderstood your post but not so much the one I responded to originally which suggested that we are bashing or kicking a false prophet while he's down and implying that we would want them to get what they 'deserve' in a punitive fashion. You expounded on that by talking of going beyond it. If I didn't quite get your response I apologize and any clarification is welcome.

I am in total concurrence with you all regarding Todd Bentley, total and absolute, and God in His Mercy has exposed him.

Will he be contrite enough to confess, repent and make restitution? Only God knows. Has he sought Godly counseling? I don't know, I would like to see him restored as a [b]Blood bought follower of Christ[/b], and no, it would not be appropriate for him to serve in any kind of God honoring ministry, but I beg the question, why confine the vehemence and outrage over Bentley's 'snake oil' tent ministry, and nary a peep about the President of the [b]National Association of Evangelicals[/b] Ted Haggard being exposed as a lying deceptive homosexual whore-mongering meth snorting sex fiend, who broke with the restorative process, and even to this day, has a website that solicits donations for a 501 non for profit that helps the "poor and needy".

To me, that whole affair smacks of the devil and demons, and rebellion, I believe that Ted Haggard doesnt get the scorn, because while Bentley LOOKED like a freak, weird tatoo's, weird earings, all that grabage, Ted Haggard's out ward appearance was of the normal "pastor", neat haircut, suit, tie, etc, and he talked the talk, said all the right things, "voted" the right way, all the while engaging in such a hideous hypocritical deception.

anyone with any sense of Biblical discernment could "smell", sense that something was way off the rails about bentley, but Ted Haggard was very very slick, and therefore did much greater harm to the Church, the Body of Christ in America, not to mention the saints at New Life in Colorado Springs.

and it also came out, ex post facto, that Haggard had more than one homosexual affair, another one that New Life reportedly paid 179,000 to a young male congregant to cover counseling and college tuition:

On January 23, 2009, officials from Haggard's former church announced that a young male church member had come forward in 2006 and that there was an "overwhelming pool of evidence [of an] inappropriate, consensual sexual relationship [that] went on for a long period of time [with Haggard] ... it wasn't a one-time act."[76] Haggard's successor, Brady Boyd, said the church reached a six figure settlement with the man, who was in his early 20s at the time.[78] According to the man, he said the contact was "not consensual" and this is not about "opening new wounds" it's about a much larger issue.[78] The man, Grant Hass, added that New Life Church paid him $179,000 to cover his counseling to help recover from the situation, and pay college tuition. [79] Haggard admitted to the second relationship with Hass on CNN and other media, and when asked if he had had additional gay relationships that have been unreported, Haggard would not provide a direct answer

Now don't mistake me, I am not slamming Haggard, God have mercy on that man, but go to these two next entries and you tell me, if there is anything resembling contrition, repentance in this man:

the first is an article from Denver News, the second is Haggard's current WEBSITE!!! Is he just a carnal fleshling who has NO Fear of God?...or is he plain outright demon possessed? the utter gall and rebellion of the man! May God keep my heart pure.

[url=http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/15228215/detail.html]Church says Haggard's 'restoration' incomplete[/url]

[url=http://tedhaggard.com/index.htm]Ted Haggard Dot Com[/url]

so what is it brethern? Which is worse?

or is that the wrong question? or Are both of these stenches equally deserving of reproach?

It just seems to me, that one has been ignored by a segment of the Body, while another has attracted all sorts of (well-deserved) scorn.

Let me finish with this, I've been blessed, in my walk with Christ, with a Godly, dear hearted mentor, who over time has become as close as an older brother, and my best friend. I cannot thank and praise God enough for sending such a brother into my life, and I know the feeling is mutual. Early in my walk, due to the nature of my job, I was frequently free (like a pastor) during the day to attend to ministry, meaning that my brother (my pastor) would take me to the duties of visiting elderly congregants, shut-in's, and take me on hospital visits, presbyter breakfasts and prayer meetings, etc etc.

Of course, i would be silent, I would just provide prayer covering both for him, and those who were elderly, and/or dying, or sick....and I remember one hospital visit to a dear old man at death's door, skeletal, skin like parchment, eyes closed, and my mentor took this man's hand in his, and I gently put my hand on top of pastors hand, and pastor started to pray healing over this dear man, and then pastor started to speak of Jesus, gently, low, told this man about the need to accept Jesus as Saviour and Lord, and then asked this man, "are you prepared to ask Jesus into you heart and your life?" at that moment this man opened his eyes, weak, looked into pastor's eyes, and almost imperceptively nodded. I was there, I saw it, and I looked over at his vital signs on the monitor, and you could see, at that moment his heartbeat quickening. We all were silent, hands on hands, this went on for about two three minutes, it was a moment I'll never forget. Pastor looked at me, nodded, and we left silently, wrapped in prayer.

Later, while having lunch at Denny's , pastor got a call from the mans daughter, he had crossed the Jordan, he died, and I said to my brother, "I learned something today, we pray for healing, at the altar, in a hospital room, and sometimes in the Will of God, death is healing, because when you walk with Jesus, and you slip this tent of flesh, the Heavenly Jerusalem awaits, and once you have this Divine Merciful assurance, death of body has no hold of fear over you ever again. You have slipped the bonds and bondage of death, into a glorious eternal reality inherent in Christ Jesus".

God is Merciful, may we be the same.

neil

ChrisJD, Understood. Thank you. I don't want to come off as wanting anything that would give the impression that love is lacking even for those who are apartied to these kinds of ministries. Behind my passion to give perspective on these matters is a good intention and a wanting for the God's mercy and redemptive intervention. Sometimes it seems necessary to invoke that passion to drive the point if it's an important topic for me personally... which it is. But sometimes the manner of the response can be counter-productive which is also important.

Had God not shown me the damage done with many of these outpourings and enlightened me to the willingness of some to accept practically anything many leaders proclaim outside of the Bible, my passion on this matter would be muted. My intention is not to keep throwing stones but to keep some of the known damage done at the forefront lest we forget and let our guard down in the future. I've had personal dealings with local ministries in faith healing and was brought out of a false doctrinal theology as a young christian by God's grace. I believe in the gifts of the Spirit but what drives my perpective are the intentions of those who claim certain gifts only to leave a trail of people with jaded faith wondering what might be wrong with them and their faith or lack thereof. Witnessing these things has been troubling to me.

Mat 24:2425 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before.

2Co 11:13-15 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

I believe we've all been together long enough to form true Godly affection for one another - my question is - why would we come harder against one another here at times than we do these "angel of light ministers"?

The reason is our lack of an understanding of GOD.

HE is unfathomably HOLY - HE is jealously TRUTH and HE is Perfect LOVE; all Three Personified in One Divine Nature.

We mistakenly seperate HIS Characteristics or put more emphasis on one Characteristic over another. One day stressing Holiness, but lacking in Love - One day stressing Love but lacking that jealousy over His Truth.

We could not stand up in the Presence of HIS Holiness - our minds could never grasp the intensity of all that makes Him The Truth and our bodies could not hold up under the fullness of His Love, yet all three are never seperated in HIM. HE consistantly acts and 'thinks' out of the perfect union of the three Equally and always.

If we have had even a small glimpse of HIM in all of His Holiness, Truth and Love and knew that HE never acts outside of, nor within one but not the other two always, our discernment or judgments would be as HIS in these things.

Rom 12:1-2 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

We wouldn't put Love before Truth - nor Holiness above Love nor any other combination of the splitting of HIS Divine Nature.

We need this glimpse of GOD in His Entirety before the hoards of hell are loosed upon this earth and discernment will be needed more than ever.

We can only discern when we've had that genuine glimpse the Genuine. Until we 'know Him'. Until we've had the full revelation of Who GOD Is. Until we've 'seen' HIM spiritually.

Never do we ever want to divide up HIS Holiness from HIM being The Truth and that HE is Love. We need to see them all working equally at once. Always, from the GOD Who is Holy - Who is Truth and Who is Love, all at the same time.

We need a True Revelation - a 'seeing' The GODHEAD, so that like Paul, our jealousy over His Character would remain, above human thinking or emotional feelings.

The days of following HIM by 'emotions' - 'intellect' - mystical feelings or just by parroting other's writings are over.

We need to be fully filled with the revelation of His meaning of "In Spirit and In Truth" - "In Truth and Love" - "our GOD is a Holy GOD - HE IS THE Truth - HE Is Love" - never working in one attribute without the other two active - ever.

Even His Holy judgments are based on His Love of His Truth.

We'll never know this equality of attributes or this constant Balance without a true Revelation of GOD.
GOD help us to See You - to seek You until we do have an Isaiah type 'seeing' of You in Your Fulness by revelation of Your Word and by seeking You with all our hearts for this True Revelation of Your Divine Nature, Amen.

Quote

"We could not stand up in the Presence of HIS Holiness - our minds could never grasp the intensity of all that makes Him The Truth and our bodies could not hold up under the fullness of His Love, yet all three are never seperated in HIM. HE consistantly acts and 'thinks' out of the perfect union of the three Equally and always.

If we have had even a small glimpse of HIM in all of His Holiness, Truth and Love and knew that HE never acts outside of, nor within one but not the other two always, our discernment or judgments would be as HIS in these things."

Amen Jesus-is God. Just one single moment in the presence of Almighty God, just a moment and all nonsence would be swept away. We must be " witnesses to power," or we are no witnesses at all. When we share the Gospel, it must be a first hand account. When it is a first hand account, there is power. Simply repeating a story that you heard and that you give mental assent to, carries no power............Frank

I didnt post this thread as a way of slamming Todd Bentley, but merely to show that the entire thing was a sham from beginning to end. Anyone with an ounce of Biblical discernment knew that from the outset of the Lakeland thing.

As for Todd Bentley... he doesnt need counseling, or to be restored... he needs to be saved.

No one else here has the guts to say what scripture has already said... so I will say it: There was no fruit of salvation evident in Bentley's ministry, actions, doctrine, behavior or adultry and subsequent marriage which has only continued his adultrous lifestyle.

That is not the fruits of the Spirit. Scripture says that you can know if someone is a Christian if the fruits of the Spirit are made manifest in one's life.

I'm not saying that from a mean-spirited heart because I have no feelings one way or another about the man other than sympathy for his lost soul.

One can not put forth such gross error, gross false doctrine, claim to have kicked people in the face in the name of God, cuss while you're "preaching" and joke about it, bilk people for $$, committ adultry with somone on your ministry staff, divorce your wife and marry your adultrous girlfriend... and be a Christian.

It's impossible. And I'm sorry, but anyone who honestly believes the man is saved is ignorant of scripture, and I dont trust you.

Perhaps he's gotten saved since all this imploded upon him, I dont know. He's been silent (and he should remain silent, not "restored").

I know I'll draw some fire for saying all this, but frankly I dont care. The truth is the truth whether you like it or not.

So, having said all that... I tell you all that I do feel sympathy for the man in his lost state. I pray for God to reveal Himself to this man and save him beyond the uttermost.

Krispy

And by the way... dont tell me you love Paul Washer's preaching, and turn around disagree with my last post.

Krispy

Quote

"And I'm sorry, but anyone who honestly believes the man is saved is ignorant of scripture, and I dont trust you."

Very true brother, we shall know them by their fruits. The first time I ran into this kind of lack of discernment was back in the middle 90s a few years after I got saved. There was a woman who was shooting up heroin and starving her baby. I was told that she was a Spirit filled Christian and that she was "on the road," meaning I suppose, that she was being sanctified. I remember thinking , "wow." Of course the Scriptures speak to these issues "Do not be fooled(when the Lord actually tells us not to be fooled then there is obvioulsy great danger of being fooled) those who "practise(key word) these things shall not inherit the kingdom of heaven." ...........Frank

PS....."Better the smite of a friend than the kiss of an enemy." The truth spoken in love is the most powerful weapon that we have, the love , of course, is the supernatural love of God burning within us, it never shy's away from speaking the Truth. Its bold and it terrifies the enemy of our souls.

"No one else here has the guts to say what scripture has already said... so I will say it: There was no fruit of salvation evident in Bentley's ministry, actions, doctrine, behavior or adultry and subsequent marriage which has only continued his adultrous lifestyle." Krispy

This is basically my view as well. It's not like we don't have the benefit of history here. This has played itself out, and from that we can glean what could be coming back to the church. My reaction to these things... this especially, in my view, are in direct proportion to those who adamatly defended all this before we knew what we knew.

People who were warned of this ahead of time were warned with good intentions because they were being deceived. And at that time the people here giving the warnings were labelled 'judgmental', 'cold hearted', 'legalists', 'pharisees'... the list goes on. They could not see our intentions and it seems as though they didn't care. When I was speaking out against this (I had a different acct at the time), I wasn't just debating those who labelled us, I was talking to those who had to make a choice and were confused about what to believe about the whole thing. Those who were on the fence. This stuff will return, the Bible says so. I think many who came here like a flood to defend the Lakeland counterfeit need to examine themselves and Scripture more so than the ones forced to defend a position that bore itself out correctly. No matter how our position was presented or worded the backlash was still the same in intensity and judgment.

Krispy you are just calling a spade a spade. I respect that quality in these matters. Anything less seems disingenuous and gives ground on a firm stand. My character can be judged, and perhaps in good faith by some, but I believe that my Scriptual discernment here is correct and that won't budge.

and just by the very silence to my question, which is why do we forthtell about the trainwreck that is Todd Bentley, and yet ignore the sordid episode surrounding the president of the NAE, Ted Haggard? This silence of my entreaty speaks volumnes.

I'm not trying to bait anybody, I am in earnest in asking why give ANY leader in ministry a free pass, when they have indulged in such gross and blantant sin?

Is it because for many years Ted Haggard did not appear "replusive" or "gross"?...yet at the same time while maintaining this appearance of Godly piety, he was steeped in sin, and apparrently led more than one child of God astray, including opening up, as leader of a megachurch, a large assembly to God knows what demonic spirits.

It just seems to me to be 'cherry-picking' which apostate backslidden "preacher" we subject to righteous indignation.

Indeed, if I myself am on a "pay no mind" list, thats fine, but this line of forthtelling on this thread me vexed and perplexed, and I feel, and I could very easily be wrong, but I feel that there is little love and respect for those brethern that are of "Pentecostal" or dare I say, "charismatic" leanings, on this forum. I pray I'm wrong. As I am a strong proponent of unity, this just breaks my heart, because as the Spirit leds, my heart is lead by what we have in common, what we share in this Most Holy Faith, however at the same time, I don't share these leadings about the roman institution, or Jehovah's, or followers of Smith, Mormons, etc....basically those who have attached other attainments onto the Lamb of God, Jesus.

But why give Haggard a free ride, and only focus on Bentley?, thats my question

I dont think anyone is cherry picking. Everything about Bentley's "ministry" was false... from his teaching/doctrine to his lies about healing.

Haggard taught and held to orthodox Biblical doctrine. His sins may have led people astray, but his teachings did not. Therein lies the difference.

Haggard was not a false teacher... he was a man who struggled with deep rooted sin.

Bentley flaunted his error and sin (w/the exception of adultry).

Bentley = false teacher
Haggard = flawed teacher

Big difference.

And just for the record, I've never defended Haggard, nor do I think he should be restored to the ministry.

Krispy

The cherry picking allegation is, AND LET ME BE CLEAR, RIDICULOUS.

Ted Haggard did not have the same outpouring movement that Bently had. This was a short and intense time period when clear lines were drawn in the Church on whether or not this was a true move of God. IT WAS ON GOD TV all over the globe and people were coming from various countries by the droves to see these manifestations. There was little debate about Ted Haggard while he was preaching. For one, no one knew his personal life was steeped as such for so long. Secondly, Ted Haggard wasn't claiming to be lifted up to heaven in a portal, gutted by alien beings, having his guts thrown on the floor and turning to gold, then having truth 'sown' into him by alien beings on a heavenly gurney.. all the while having wide eyed listeners in complete awe and accepteing every outlandish story that was told. No, this was not Ted Haggard. Ted Haggard to my knowledge, did not have a Pastor from Germany come over and say that he was visited by angels at a burger shop where they turned his insides to gold then making a video of he and his buddies in a hotel telling everyone that they were in "the flow" while bouncing around all over the hotel room in some form of an epileptic seizure while his buddies laughed as it was some comedy act. Ted Haggard didn't have this man on stage and state to him: 'do you want some of this?' to which the man responded 'yes' and Bentley gave him a flying knee to the gut which produced another convulsion-like episode. Subsequently, Bentley said 'the Lord told me to knee him in the gut so I kneed him in the gut'.

Ted Haggard's church was filled with people (in general) who wanted to listen to the Gospel.... not people who were wanting to see lying signs and wonders from all across the globe. Ted Haggard, as reported by one of his people, did however sponser a faith healer who looked drunk on stage and was seen laughing at the man after the event. Ted Haggard would probably have lacked discernment on the Lakeland event but we'll never know. Ted Haggard is a tragedy, Todd Bentley is also a tragic situation... but there is a clear difference. Ted Haggard supporters did not troll this forum in droves calling us liars and pharisees when he fell from grace. Ted Haggard didn't draw a bunch of prophets from different areas to lay hands on him and give him somekind of supernatural prophetic mantel. Ted Haggard didn't stumble around on stage saying 'we are not drunk as you suppose' to hysterical laughter from the audience in what looked like a complete mockery of the Gospel. Ted Haggard didn't bring terminally ill people from all over the country promising healing only to leave them and their families out in the prophetic wind.

Cherry picking??? There have been many fallen pastors throughout the history of the church, some saved.. some perhaps not.... but the likes of Lakeland is a rare event. God is giving us a warning in His mercy by showing us the damage of Lakeland and false prophets. The real false prophet will do things no one can imagine and people will take it like a fish takes a worm if we don't take heed.

"The main thing that I have a problem with most of you brothers is that you say Todd Bentley was never born again. I believe that if many of you knew the actual facts of his childhood, and what he came out of when he first received the Lord, you would be of a different opinion." Abide in Him

Wait a second here.... you said we will know by their fruit. You can't have it both ways. You can't say the issues with his affair and divorce is a 'complicated issue' then caution us to look at the fruit as you did in your original post. The issue doesn't seem complicated at all when when we look at the fruit of this. Here's the fruit as it stands now Abide: terminally ill people were not healed when they said the were, people believed he was living a righteous life when he was on the stage, he took money from thousands of people knowing that he was having an affair, he never once came out on stage in Lakeland and spoke the truth about his current situation.... he premeditatedly hid it from those who came and he hid it until it was evident he was caught, he subsequently divorced his wife and remarried the woman he was having an affair with while he was healing others. There's your fruit. Whether it's 'complicated' or not isn't the issue. There is no such thing as complicated bad fruit. It's not like his infidelity and divorce was several years before Lakeland. The affair was going on while he was on stage. Come now.

Let me ask you this: Why do you think God allowed all this to happen? Meaning the exposure of the situation and the revelation of false promises made. Who benefits more from this? Todd Bentley who is being restored by a man who says there is and eighth church of revelation and has a history of very questionable and unbiblical doctrines? Or all those who dismissed someone who brought a different Gospel and false promises to thousands upon thousands of people? I prayed for Bentley while this was going on that he would come out of the deception and reveal exactly what this false prophetic movement is all about and how they operate. I still hope this happens. But I believe God had mercy on all those whose itching ears were willing to accept anything unbiblical as long as it made them feel good, gave them some kind of anointing, or gave them weird extra biblical manifestations. He's telling them something and it's a forewarning for those to take heed for future events like this.

I know about the facts of his childhood, I was once a sexual abuse and molestation investigator and have interviewed many children and many perpetrators. It's horribly evil. But that alone doesn't tell me about their salvation. I heard about him being delivered from drugs and I believe God can do this. But this is only a testimony, everyone has a testimony, even Ted Haggard has a salvation testimony. If you're looking at the testimony surrounding his salvation and not the un-bilical doctrines then I have to disagree with your whole premise. He's a troubled soul but he's not a prophet nor a faith healer. This part of his situation needs to be address before more people are hurt. The facts of his personal life need to be prayed for and he needs much prayer and good guidance. Rick Joyner is not that guidance. But his troubled life doesn't preclude dishonesty and sordid gain while teaching a different Jesus and a different Gospel than the one I read. That's the bottom line for me. As tragic and complicated Bentley's life is, so are all those lame and ill people and their families who had hope in someone who was falsely proclaiming gifts and giving them a defferent Gospel.

Bentley was false, we agree on that, he's been exposed, Praise God.

but what just mystifies me is when you say this:

Haggard taught and held to orthodox Biblical doctrine

"held to"? You are going to actually tell me that a man, who has committed to undertake one of the most serious callings in a believers life, that is to pastor a congregation, and preach the Gospel to them, dares play with the Things of God, by proclaiming the Good News of Jesus out of a mouth that has been used to committ homosexual fornication on a regular and frequent basis, meth addiction on a regular and frequent basis, and thats "holding to" orthodox Biblical doctrine?

please, see the light, see the hypocrisy, see the lie of such a witness, its not only a "flaw", its [b]false and counterfeit [/b] as well, don't you see that?

What rebellion! and the saddest part is this; the secular world, those who are lost, just saw Bentley as a joke, but they saw Haggard as a pure unvarnished hypocrite, false, as he was one of the leading voices from the Church against homosexual "marriage", which just hardens into cement their own wrongheaded views that "christians" are just phony, false self-righteous gameplayers. They dont see the countless saints, pastors, layleaders who labor anonymously and faihfully to bring the Gospel to a dead and dying world. That wouldnt suit the devil, he needs the press and their filthy quest for gossip and dirty laundry to feed to the lost. he needs the bentleys and haggards, who play with God, then get exposed, and delight the secular media with "more copy".

please see that, and then do a word association with folks who aint right with God, ask them what word comes to their minds right after you say the word, "evangelical".

My guess is that the results would tear our hearts in two, which is why, those of us who deign to "steady the Ark", go into ministry, pray for revival, and ascend the hill of Lord, must have "clean hands and a pure heart". That's an absolute prerequiste for ministry, along with the humble admission that ANY man or woman in Christ can stumble and fall, therefore it is good and wise to stay grounded in a disciplined private prayer life always, yielded obedient, burnt out dead to self.

and ccrider, God bless you brother, but after I read the word "RIDICOLOUS" directed to my post....there would be little fruit in a counterresponse, so (sigh) you're "right", ridiculous.

God love ya Stevie, I do, neil

By their fruit you shall know them. A good tree bears good fruit... a bad tree bad fruit.

The fruit will be the same for all Christians regardless of whether you grew up in a trailer park being sexually abused your whole childhood, or you grew up in a quiet country church.

If you're saved the fruit of the Spirit spoken of in scripture will be manifested in your life.

I'm tired of hearing excuses for a believer's sinful behavior based on one's childhood. Thats just American culture... blame everything and everyone else, dont take responsibility for your own behavoir.

By their fruit you shall know them.

Krispy

To clarify for you Neil... when I said "held to" orthodoxy, I merely meant that he "held to" orthodoxy in his teaching and preaching. And I believe he truly thinks that what he preached was true... but he fell into sin.

Thats different from Bentley. He didn't know the truth and certainly didnt preach the truth. He preached another gospel.

Love you too, Neil... but ccrider is right.

Krispy

Stevie,

let me bless you and ccrider...ready?

you both are "right", I'm "wrong". :-)

or as my brother Paul so majestically said,

When reviled, we bless; when persecuted, we endure; when slandered, we entreat. We have become, and are still, like the scum of the world, the refuse of all things.

neil

Natan4Jesus, I don't believe Krispy was cherry picking at all or anyone else concering Bentley vs Haggard. I thought the allegation was 'without much merit'. We can debate the similarities and/or differences but I thought the cherry picking was a bit strong. The Bentley event is only a year old and somewhat fresh in some people's minds.

Perhaps the ridiculous comment was an overblown response, but the cherry picking allegation was also over the top. We all pick our battles, this is one that I have beaten my head against the wall over trying to get people to see the harm of this event.

I agree with you with the damage Ted Haggard has done as well. What you said was about him I think is dead on. But the thread was about Bentley's ministry and the tragedy of lost hope and lost lives. Had it been a Ted Haggard thread I would not have accused anyone of cherry picking by not mentioning Bentley. Bless you brother.

Natan4Jesus, dude you're okay!!!! Thanks for being gracious with this. You spoke truth and were not wrong in the points you made concerning Haggard. I think we're on the same page more than not, and if not that's fine too brother. I think I understand your motive which is certainly genuine.

blessings on you too, Floor-Us! (wink)

Krispy

Krispy, CCrider, ChrisJD and many others,

I beg of you, please NEVER EVER doubt that I don't love you with the Love of Jesus that comes along with the Baptism of the Holy Ghost, and as you dear brothers and sisters know, we were baptized in ONE Spirit, One Christ, One God, One Church, which is the Body of Christ, and anything that veers from such riches, such unity, tears the heart out of my chest, and grieves me to the point of despair, but fully recognizing that God is Sovereign, He searches all hearts, all motives, and I fear for those who approach the "altar" bearing "strange fire", for it is a terrible thing to fall underneath an angry God. Terrible to the point that once stout legs turn into jello, and hearts melt.

We should and must pray that we never "play" games with God. Yes, He is patient and long suffering, but rue the Day when He says ENOUGH.

May God have mercy on these men we have spoke of, and may he strengthen the weak and feeble knees of the faithful servants who labor with fidelity and honesty in this Ministry of Reconciliation thru Jesus, His Son, and our Savior, amen.

love, neil

"I believe (and no great revelation here, on my part) that The person healed must take responsibility also. Otherwise he comes back and sees his house empty swept, and garnished, and taketh with him...seven other spirits more nasty than himself" sonofthunder

I agree that the people who were misled are also culpable. I agree with Carter Conlon and Paul Washer who say that some of these prophets are judgment on a church with itching ears that seeks their own needs and wants. Paul the Apostle said that people who heard a Gospel different from the one he preached put up with it easy enough as I stated in a previous post. Paul's Gospel, the true Gospel, did not suit their wants and needs so they looked to false teachers to tell them what they wanted to hear. Paul called them 'super apostles' and they are here today just as are those who can't deal with a truth that challenges the basic tenets of selfishness and flesh in them. Judgment begins in the house of God and God will let this falseness continue up until the false prophet and anti-christ arrive. At that point I believe He will have shown His Church all they need to know about un-Biblical charlatans and their haenous misdeeds. It's judgment but it is also His mercy that shows those willing to take heed to look to Him and not man for their provision and joy.

I had a woman come up to me at work one time and tell me something pretty edifying. We didn't know eachother that well just exchanged pleasantries and small talk. This was right around the time of Lakeland and she said to me "I don't know what your religious beliefs are but I feel I should tell you this. I was at an auction with my husband and out of the blue a lady and her husband asked me if I had back problems. I said yes I have a disc problem in my lower back (she surmised that the lady must have noticed something when she walked). The lady said 'you know if two are in agreement God can work in your life, would you mind if I prayed for you?' The lady from my work said 'not at all'. So the woman placed her hand on ther back and prayed. The lady from work noticed this lady's husband bowing his head in prayer also. She said that she felt a warm tingling sensation in the area of her back that caused her pain. The lady praying asked 'do you feel anything' which she responded 'yes I do'. The praying lady said 'God bless you' then she and her husband just walked away silently. The lady at my work said it was very subtle and tasteful and that she has had little to no back pain since. I talked to her today and she was praising Christ that she could move better and was thankful for the mobility she had as God keeps putting people with her who are much worse off physically. I belive she was a Christian before this, but the event took her to a whole different place.

I guess what I think I've learned from all this is that God is not a showy, pretentious, limelighting stage presence. He is meek, humble, and subtle in power and generosity. Although He is not totally void of being provoked by a wayward church, He is gentle with those lambs who are not looking just to see what He can do for them.

As I have said before, I believe in the gifts of healing and believe it is here today with those who are willing to accept and exercise it for His glory. But this type of healing ministry like the one above I believe is very much under the radar so the church doesn't get puffed up with boastful and prideful success. God knows how easily we will give ourselves credit for His work. We will take something very simple, yet powerful, and take it to the extreme so we can let the world know how special we are. Jesus didn't do the things our so-called prophets do today. The paradox of His anointing as the Son of God was that the power of the Father in heaven was wrapped up in a humble and meek nature that put His Father first. Many times He told those not to say anything of His works even though they couldn't help themselves in praising God to others. He let the Father dictate the action of those who received the power of His father. He didn't take the stage on the Mount of Olives to give God's people a healing and manefestation show. He preached the truth that got Him killed.

The gifts of the Spirit are certainly here but they won't be displayed like a secular stage show and an invitation for everyone to come and get a piece of heavenly pie. He wants us on a personal level first and foremost and He wants our faith to stand firm event if we can't see His works and power in action.

Paul the Apostle said that the OT Prophets searched for the end result of their calling but some did not see the promise of the Messiah to us. This is faith, this is God's work... His plan. Some had no idea that they were speaking of us, they just trusted without manefestation or validation. God has a plan and it's not a quick, flashy, and massive 'now moment'. It's simply subtle, patient, and perfect.

I beg of you, please NEVER EVER doubt that I don't love you with the Love of Jesus that comes along with the Baptism of the Holy Ghost, and as you dear brothers and sisters know, we were baptized in ONE Spirit, One Christ, One God, One Church, which is the Body of Christ, and anything that veers from such riches, such unity, tears the heart out of my chest, and grieves me to the point of despair, but fully recognizing that God is Sovereign, He searches all hearts, all motives, and I fear for those who approach the "altar" bearing "strange fire", for it is a terrible thing to fall underneath an angry God. Terrible to the point that once stout legs turn into jello, and hearts melt.

Many of you were not members of this forum when Neil and I were first here. There is a looooong history of "Neil and Krispy"... and unfortunately it was quite ugly at the outset. Mike (crsschk) can attest to the truth of that statement.

Neil and I clashed on almost everything, and we both acted immaturely... and the moderators had to step in numerous times. I'm not proud of that.

But over time we both gave each other second chance after second chance. God intervened somewhere along the line, and began to reveal each of us to each other.

Now, several years later I can tell everyone here that on this forum Neil is my best friend, my brother, my comrade, my warrior partner... and I love the guy.

We may never meet on this earth, but when I get to heaven (once I get up off my face) I am going searching for Neil (if he beats me there). If when y'all get to heaven and you can't find Neil and I... it's because we're out on a fishing trip somewhere with Peter.

I say all that because I want to demonstrate for everyone here that we can all disagree on something, but still have great love in our hearts for each other.

There were many great friendships in the Bible... David and Jonathon, the disciples, etc... and today it's Neil and Krispy.

May we all learn to disagree with love in our hearts.

Krispy

Krispy,
usually I never go near this computer, until I've had a session of early morning devotional Scripture reading. (I've been deep into Philippians and Colossians for about three weeks now, peeling off attributes of these epistles and writing them down)

but I had left the computer on last night, it went to sleep, and was blinking, so I just figured I could quickly check the price of wheat, cattle, and silver. (btw, they're all going higher) and something just made me come on to SI for a second.

and this post just warmed my heart like you wouldnt believe. But a person CAN believe it, because thats an attribute of the Gospel, in that being knit together in the Ministry of Christ and Him Crucified, coming to live in our hearts, building us into [b]"living stones"[/b] most of the time thats done thru local fellowships and congregations, and other times, we redeem the internet, by forming such deep abiding kinship such as dear Krispy and I have, he is my best friend on this forum. (I'm quitely building other such kinships on this forum as well, Praise God)

A dear man he is, and even though you might say, we disagree on a lot of stuff, I respectfully disagree. We're both military veterans (with all of the mindset that goes along with that), we love the Word, the Bible,(he reads the KJV, I read the ESV, only cause I cant understand the KJV) we love Jesus and we cant abide when strange preachers come in and bring reproach to the witness of Christ, we both love our babies and their mothers, we both love the rural mountain life (and he knows underneath it all, I am a "redneck", just a yankee-fied version) We both love the house prayer meeting, or house Bible study, I could go on and on...but I won't. Krispy's a dear dear friend, a bestest friend, and you wrote:

We may never meet on this earth

brother, I'm not a friend who "puts" themselves on people, but something tells me we will, and we'll just have a grand time, we can split some wood for you, a cord or two, I'll buy some fatted calf, we can torture it on the grill, we can sit at the table with open Bibles, and compare favorite bits of Scripture, have a impromptu prayer meeting, and who knows, maybe God will take mercy on us, give us a fresh Holy Ghost baptism right then and there. It'd be a grand time in the fellowship of Jesus...who knows, maybe I might have a few extra shekels, and if He leads us, I'll rent a big tent, and we can hold an old-time Tent meeting, and would to God, He lead some of the worst sinners in the county to the tent, to get gloriously saved.

wouldnt that be something?

now thats a good time, make farwood, grill beef, study the Word, pray, hold a tent meeting and see people coming to Jesus....now thats my idea of an good earthly visit...plus I know the 'rule' about houseguests and fish, after 4 days..........(lol)

Oh Trooper, you made my day bright! dear brother Steve, how I love you in me and in the Lord.

off to the Jiffy Lube, and the doctor, I'm hurting.

in Jesus' love, neil

ps...You know I didnt respond to this thread to rattle your cage, I was just saying what the Spirit was saying in my heart, which is that I want to BE Church, not "do church".....n.

Amen brother! Should the Lord bring us together in this lifetime we will definately reintroduce animal sacrifices on the alter of fire... lol!

Love ya bro...

Krispy

Tony Miano (the lawman chronicles) preaching outside Todd Bently's event in L.A.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=la0qcCCTxsc

speaks for itself

I find it interesting that the only songs sung by the group are CCM's top 10's...