If Noah, who was not born again, was a preacher of righteousness . .

\t
[color=000000]. . . what is the mark of a born again individual?[/color]

And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
- Mark 14:62

Interesting. I should think it would read that we will see the Son of God sitting there.

I wonder why it doesn't?

Psa 68:11

You asked: [i]If Noah, who was not born again, was a preacher of righteousness . . what is the mark of a born again individual?[/i]

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but [b]ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father[/b].

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And [b]if[/b] children, then

The preceding verses are full of 'if'.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, [b]if[/b] so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now [b]if[/b] any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And [b]if[/b] Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness. 11 But [b]if[/b] the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For [b]if[/b] ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: [b]but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live[/b].

The word "IF" is used more than 1500 times throughout the Bible.

So what is the mark a new born individual?

Hi KJ,

What?

Paul never suggests Abraham was born again.

That is the whole point of explaining that it was his agreement with God's word to him, which [u]God[/u] counted as righteousness.

Under the New Covenant, there are many differences, especially that Christ is our righteousness and it is quite a different experience than Noah or Abraham ever had.

Note also, both those OT saints were before Moses, when Paul clearly stated that death reigned.

The idea of being 'born again' had never been mentioned until Jesus used the terminology to Nicodemus. But, Noah sought favour with God, and found it. His father had been alive with Adam, and interestingly, Noah also overlapped with Abraham for quite a few years.

The writer to the Hebrews refers to Moses as 'a servant' in the house of Israel, whereas Jesus said to Peter 'then are the children free'.

There's a very big difference.

KingJimmy wrote:
Noah wasn't merely a preacher of righteousness, he was righteous, and found favor with God.

Yes! And that was the reason he was chosen.

If God declares you righteous, you cannot help but become born again, no matter what dispensation you were born under.

Rebirth birth has nothing whatsoever to do with it.

When God declares you righteous, you actually become what God says you are by the power of His creative word, through the quickening of the Holy Spirit.

And all who were declared so bu God in the OT still never went to heaven when the died. How come?

How else could it have been that in Noah's time that men's hearts and minds were continually focused on evil, while Noah was pure except for the miracle of the new birth? Most of us are not even so pure in our own thought life as righteous Noah was... and he was living in the old dispensation!

It never requires a new birth to be righteous. It does require the new birth to live by the righteousness of Jesus Christ and those who are born again are required to live by His righteousness. However, Noah was never born again and was the last one of his generation who had not yet succumbed to the temptation of unrighteous acts of evil.

#1. The new birth was not possible. That should be elementary to anyone who understands John 3.3 and 5. The very first experience of new birth was John 20.22. Note, speaking of the disciples, that this is after justification by faith and redemption by the Blood, this occurred and not before.. Romans 5.1. It is vitally important that this is understood.

Hi KJ,

I lost the post I'd prepared a few minutes ago, and don't want to re-write it right now.

Perhaps you could explain - 'if' Noah and Abraham were 'born again' - why the Son of God become Man, and died on a cross?

I have always understood the work of the cross as an essential pre-requisite for new birth; how do you do away with it for those Old Testament saints, and what was the purpose of the Law of Moses, if new birth was possible without it?

I feel my head beginning to hurt... lol

Krispy

"Lately he appears to be attempting to use the methods of diaprax to get others to accept his different doctrinal positions. For those who are not familar with diaprax, the method goes something like this; The facilitator (Intense in this case) attempts to interrogate a person regarding their position on an issue. This is done by using a series of select questions that will most effectively break down the persons confidence in his position" Inthelight

Thank you Ron, this explains a lot of questions I had concerning not just doctrine but motives. I'm afraid there are more here as well.

The only way I could have described it without knowing the actual 'techniques' is 'circular theological argument' that never seems designed for any conclusion except that which the poster presents. The good news is that after awhile they stick out like a sore thumb even though the bait is often taken.

These issues you presented don't just go to doctrine, but character. Anything designed to be less than honest and/or transparent in motive is deceptive. They seem to thrive on constantly presenting and arguing over 'theological wedge issues'.

It seems some on here do this as technique to introduce a particular doctrine, or just to stir the pot up. Either scenario in this motive wreaks of bad fruit!!!!

anonymity wrote:
Intense,

Noah may have not been born again, but He was at least under the influence of the Holy Spirit and it was upon Him and working with Him.

If you read of David you will see much of the Spirit's work and how He had a heart after God's own heart.

I cannot say for sure but it could be that these men were actually born again though it was not fully revealed.

Impossible. Their best shot in the OT was Justification by faith, in God. By his faith in God, Noah found favor. What can be the argument with that?

No man under the Law or Old Covenant could keep it by Himself for all have sinned and if it is by that standard they would all be consumed. So, you cannot say first you cannot say that when God called Him righteous that He meant he was perfect enough to keep the law perfectly his whole life nor that he was able to do it alone apart from the Spirit.

Keeping anything was dependent upon faith in God. Law keeping, that pleased God, was evidence of that faith. Job demonstrated that result.

Also, you are trying to distinguish between living a righteous life and living by the righteousness of Jesus Christ and there is actually no difference. The law if perfect and so is Christ. Christ is not more perfect then the Law.

For you to say that is to reveal you haven't read most posts very well nor are you grasping what Paul taught on the matter.

"IF" also you are saying that the OT men of God did not make it into the Kingdom at all then you are wrong in that.

Given Jn 3.3 and 5, how so?

Noah didn't find favor with God because of his own righteousness in the sense that you are saying.

Not so again. His faith in God produced a righteousness that was not self-righteousness.

He was made righteous by faith as it says in Hebrews. Yes this faith is mingled with works but it is not the works that save you but merely the faith that produces works. It was Noah's faith/trust/belief/humility/dependence/surrender to God that made Him righteous. Once again it is not works that saves you but faith in Christ that will in turn result in works as fruit.

Yep however, in Noah's case, it could only be faith in God. Jesus wasn't born and the Holy Spirit wasn't given. Elementary stuff, my friend.. .

You cannot take isolate one passage and make a doctrine out of it you have to look at the whole of scripture and divide it rightly accordingly. Anyone can take out single verse or even a few and make just about any doctrine they want, though it be false.

Please turn that comment to yourself. I have just given you reasons to.

Just want to issue a warning to those who have not been on this forum for very long that Intense has been attempting to spread false doctrines on this site for many years now, usually under the nickname Ormly. If you do a search under that name you will find much that will give you an understanding of the merry-go-round that he has attempted to put this forum on in the past.

in worldly terms, Intense/Ormly is an "internet troll"...for an explaination:

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DFTT]Internet Trolls[/url]

the second best way to stop them, DNFTT, "do not feed the trolls", the best of course is if the moderators take him in hand, ask him to turn, failing that, ejection.

anonymity wrote:
Intense,

Their best shot in the OT was Justification by faith, in God.

Jesus is God.

Oh? What do I do with this that speaks otherwise: "He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."
Luke 1:32-33 (KJV)

Therefore if they had faith in God they had it in Jesus. The Gospel was preached to them for one instance Eve was told that her seed would smash Satan's head.

I will still say that even if they were not born again in a concealed way that they were seriously influenced by the Holy Spirit and therefore it was not by them but the grace of God for by nature man is enslaved to sin.

Say what you will however, answers to other questions will elude you.

I was also saying that Noah was not righteous before God because of His own works of righteousness but by His faith which resulted in righteousness.

Good. Then we agree on that.

Job did not keep God's law perfectly He came to a point of practicing righteousness but He was not perfect.

No one was perfect, that is true however, Job walked in the light given him that kept him from offenses. It is called walking blamelessly before the Lord. Job was blameless.

For you to say that is to reveal you haven't read most posts very well nor are you grasping what Paul taught on the matter.

From what I have read in this thread I have only seen 2 posts. I meant to write IF you are saying this. It sounded like you were saying Noah was saved by His works. Therefore I thought you were saying that. I understand what Paul says on the matter it is what you were saying that I was unclear of.

Ok. Thanks for the clarification. I trust you will investigate other threads I have started. They are guaranteed to offend traditional thinking. . . Why some are given now to call me a 'Troll' while others would me burned at the stake..And yet they can't show where the offense is except to their own pride. . . ;-)

Given the fact that Enoch was taken to be with God how so?

For much the same reason I would imagine Noah could/would have been as well, provided God did not have further plans for him, don't you think? Certainly God would not have allowed him to die with the rest of condemned humanity, do you think?

Yep however, in Noah's case, it could only be faith in God. Jesus wasn't born and the Holy Spirit wasn't given. Elementary stuff, my friend.. .

Once again it was His faith in God but Jesus is God so therefore it was His faith in Jesus plus the Gospel was preached to them beforehand.

When was Jesus God, in the OT? You cannot explain that except to say: "It is a mystery". It is not a mystery, as many will say. It can be seen quite clearly if one will only make necessary distinctions given from the scriptures instead of relying upon interpretations as scripture that have been given us by traditional thinking that presents us with a deadend theology we are to have faith in.. Therefore, are you speaking of the foreknowledge of God or the "reality" of God's mind before eternity began, that was not yet, an "actuality"? You will have to be more clear since Jesus was a man not yet born, not yet God.

Jesus has always been as the Logos and some would even argue that He appeared to Moses and other as a Theophany.

You must mean the pre-incarnate Christ, the WORD? In the Mind of God, you are correct. [When referring to Jesus, there are those two words again to be considered, "reality" and "actuality".

The Spirit may not have been given in the exact sense as after Jesus sent it but it was on the earth it was upon Samson it was in the Temple it was over the seas it was causing some to prophesy it was also giving men hearts after God's own heart.

Ah, but the operative word in your reply is: "Upon". That is true. The Spirit of god was definitely "upon" many in the OT however, no indwelling could have been possible. The man Jesus had not yet ascended on High. .

Please be more clear about what you believe and what your aim is so that there is more clarity instead of revealing you stances piece by piece as you please and as favors your debating tactics.

But I don't want to think for you. That is the reason for my "debating practices". Anything is better remembered when discovered.

Hello Intense,

I see you've taken to quoting [i]youself[/i] without making that clear, and adding an inaccurate response to back yourself up! Cunning! EDIT: On the other hand, perhaps it was an oversight?

Yep however, in Noah's case, it could only be faith in God. Jesus wasn't born and the Holy Spirit wasn't given. Elementary stuff, my friend.. .
~~~
Once again it was His faith in God but Jesus is God so therefore it was His faith in Jesus plus the Gospel was preached to them beforehand.

EDIT: I see that there had to be descendents of Adam saved, despite the Flood, or what God had said in the Garden would not be true. [end edit]

I think there is much unnecessary confusion in the minds of believers today, arising from the assumption that from Adam to the molten calf (Exo 32:4) in the wilderness, God was physically invisible.

The Bible says:

10 And they saw the God of Israel: and [there was] under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in [his] clearness. 11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

Exo 24

And, the apostle John said twice 'No man hath seen God at any time'. I conclude that both are true, rather than ditch the record in Exodus, or Genesis. Genesis 3:8

Thus, our discussion about faith could be restricted to whether - as God looked upon the heart of the man to whom He was talking - He found faith there, in His ability to perform His promises.

Another way God could tell if the man was genuinely believing, was by the actions which followed His commands to the man. Gen 22:18

I thought some of you might like to dig into a website on the Hebrew letter which begins Abraham's name, and also consider how many other important associated meanings would have been going round and round in Paul's mind, as the Holy Spirit revealed to him truth from his memorisation of the Pentateuch.

[url=http://www.biblewheel.com/wheel/Spokes/Aleph_Abraham.asp]Aleph[/url]

[url=http://www.biblewheel.com/gr/gr_808.asp]Abraham = Faith and other key meanings (by numerical value)[/url]

Hello Alive

Alive-to-God wrote:
Hello Intense,

I see you've taken to quoting [i]youself[/i] without making that clear, and adding an inaccurate response to back yourself up! Cunning! EDIT: On the other hand, perhaps it was an oversight?

Yep however, in Noah's case, it could only be faith in God. Jesus wasn't born and the Holy Spirit wasn't given. Elementary stuff, my friend.. .
~~~
Once again it was His faith in God but Jesus is God so therefore it was His faith in Jesus plus the Gospel was preached to them beforehand.

How could anyone have faith in 'Jesus' before He was born? Gal 3:8

EDIT: I see that there had to be descendents of Adam saved, despite the Flood, or what God had said in the Garden would not be true. [end edit]

I think there is much unnecessary confusion in the minds of believers today, arising from the assumption that from Adam to the molten calf (Exo 32:4) in the wilderness, God was physically invisible.

The Bible says:

10 And they saw the God of Israel: and [there was] under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in [his] clearness. 11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

Exo 24

And, the apostle John said twice 'No man hath seen God at any time'. I conclude that both are true, rather than ditch the record in Exodus, or Genesis. Genesis 3:8

Thus, our discussion about faith could be restricted to whether - as God looked upon the heart of the man to whom He was talking - He found faith there, in His ability to perform His promises.

Another way God could tell if the man was genuinely believing, was by the actions which followed His commands to the man. Gen 22:18

I thought some of you might like to dig into a website on the Hebrew letter which begins Abraham's name, and also consider how many other important associated meanings would have been going round and round in Paul's mind, as the Holy Spirit revealed to him truth from his memorisation of the Pentateuch.

[url=http://www.biblewheel.com/wheel/Spokes/Aleph_Abraham.asp]Aleph[/url]

[url=http://www.biblewheel.com/gr/gr_808.asp]Abraham = Faith and other key meanings (by numerical value)[/url]

Hi hulsey,

I appreciate your answer, and understand justifcaiton by faith. But we are, from our perspective, [i][b]required[/b][/i] to believe in Jesus Christ, and to be baptised into his death (are we not) for our salvaton?

You did not touch on the matter of new birth, of which Nicodemus had never heard.

Surely, there is nothing in scripture to say Noah, Abraham or Moses were 'filled with the Holy Spirit', as the apostles were, and believers since Pentecost are today?

If they had been, would they not be 'sons' on the same terms as we are in Christ? Are you suggsting that it is merely the terminology of our revelation which has progressed, and they did indeed receive power over sin, because they 'believed' God?

"They are guaranteed to offend traditional thinking. . . Why some are given now to call me a 'Troll' while others would me have burned at the stake..And yet they can't show where the offense is except to their own pride. . . " Intense

There will be not pity party here for your 'burned at the stake' comment. Those words are yours, yours only, and can stay with you.

Quote:
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Yep however, in Noah's case, it could only be faith in God. Jesus wasn't born and the Holy Spirit wasn't given. Elementary stuff, my friend.. .
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Intense

"Once again it was His faith in God but Jesus is God so therefore it was His faith in Jesus plus the Gospel was preached to them beforehand." Intense

The pattern through your whole post up until this point was to quote another as in; Quote: "such and such said"....... and in each case you provide your answer outside of the quote. However in this one instance you seem to be debating yourself. You respond to your own quote yet WE are full of pride??? Your doctrine offends traditional thinking yet somehow you offend and contradict your own doctrine by answering your own quote... and that being 'elementary stuff'?

It seems in this case you couldn't even keep track of your own argument. I think this speaks to motive and credibility. This is quite a telling 'oops'.

hulsey wrote:

Hi KJ,

I lost the post I'd prepared a few minutes ago, and don't want to re-write it right now.

Perhaps you could explain - 'if' Noah and Abraham were 'born again' - why the Son of God become Man, and died on a cross?

I'm not Jimmy, but I'll try to help. Noah was justified before God the same way you and I are only from a different perspective and with a lot less revelation than us. A promised child from God that would be born of men was and is the basis of the whole of OT prophecy. The work of Christ on the cross was as necessary and, with the ressurection, was the justifying factor of ours and Noah's life only from different perspectives. We are in a greater position than Noah and according to Jesus even greater than John the Baptist because we can look back on a completed work. The mysteries that were not revealed to Noah and those who would come to live under the law of Moses have been revealed and given to us. However we are all justified by the same work, Christ dieing in our place. If the law could justify then Christ did not have to die.

Hi Hulsey, Instead of the word "Justification", which is by faith, wouldn't the word "Reconcile" be accurate? Just asking.

ccrider wrote:
"They are guaranteed to offend traditional thinking. . . Why some are given now to call me a 'Troll' while others would me burned at the stake..And yet they can't show where the offense is except to their own pride. . . " Intense

There will be not pity party here for your 'burned at the stake' comment. Those words are yours, yours only, and can stay with you.

Pity? I ask for no pity.

Quote:
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Yep however, in Noah's case, it could only be faith in God. Jesus wasn't born and the Holy Spirit wasn't given. Elementary stuff, my friend.. .
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Intense

"Once again it was His faith in God but Jesus is God so therefore it was His faith in Jesus plus the Gospel was preached to them beforehand." Intense

Wrong. They had faith in what God "preached" to them, at least as much as Abraham had when the Lord told him, Sarah would bear a child. .. and he is called the "father of faith". Enter Ishmael.

The pattern through your whole post up until this point was to quote another as in; Quote: "such and such said"....... and in each case you provide your answer outside of the quote. However in this one instance you seem to be debating yourself. You respond to your own quote yet WE are full of pride???

Sorry ???

Your doctrine offends traditional thinking yet somehow you offend and contradict your own doctrine by answering your own quote... and that being 'elementary stuff'?

Ditto ??? Perhaps I have made some typos I can correct. I will review my post.

It seems in this case you couldn't even keep track of your own argument. I think this speaks to motive and credibility. This is quite a telling 'oops'.

Think so? What do you believe it might be if not to speak of the work of the cross to be more about enabling us for the way of cross,a perspective I find few here have considered aside from the issue of redemption and even on that subject, few find agreement.

Bro let me keep you from further embarrassment here, and I mean this sincerely. You seemed to have used my post in quotes, which quoted you, and answered your own language once again. Let's go through this.

Anonymity stated this below as you quoted in one of your earlier posts:

.........................................................................
Quote:

He was made righteous by faith as it says in Hebrews. Yes this faith is mingled with works but it is not the works that save you but merely the faith that produces works. It was Noah's faith/trust/belief/humility/dependence/surrender to God that made Him righteous. Once again it is not works that saves you but faith in Christ that will in turn result in works as fruit.

............................................ end anonymity's quote that YOU CITED!!!

Now, you stated this below as a response to anonymity's quote above which you yourself cited:

Your Quote: "Yep however, in Noah's case, it could only be faith in God. Jesus wasn't born and the Holy Spirit wasn't given. Elementary stuff, my friend.. ." Intense

Now scroll further to your next post which now quotes yourself and the above rebuttal:

Your own Quote is posted again by you here below:

Quote:
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Yep however, in Noah's case, it could only be faith in God. Jesus wasn't born and the Holy Spirit wasn't given. Elementary stuff, my friend... Intense
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Now Here's your own response to your own above Quote right here:

"Once again it was His faith in God but Jesus is God so therefore it was His faith in Jesus plus the Gospel was preached to them beforehand." Intense

If this isn't enough, you take what I posted as YOUR OWN QUOTES (both together) right here below then answer them yet again. Here is your quote to me:

Pity? I ask for no pity.

Quote:
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Yep however, in Noah's case, it could only be faith in God. Jesus wasn't born and the Holy Spirit wasn't given. Elementary stuff, my friend.. .
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Intense

"Once again it was His faith in God but Jesus is God so therefore it was His faith in Jesus plus the Gospel was preached to them beforehand." Intense
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The above quotes are yours. And now you again answer yourself below:

"Wrong. They had faith in what God "preached" to them, at least as much as Abraham had when the Lord told him, Sarah would bear a child. .. and he is called the "father of faith". Enter Ishmael." Intense

What gives??? I never...never posted ANY REBUTTAL to what you and AlivetoGod debated on Biblical doctrine. So, when you say "WRONG", you seem to be rebutting your own quotes that I'm posting from you, as those quotes are not from me at all. They are yours!

AlivetoGod first noticed you responding to your own quote, so that makes two of us here. But in your haste to your own defense, you then again post a quote that is originally your own (as I had quoted you) and answer it once again. This is much much more than a 'typo'.

I certainly hope I'm amiss here with the chronological accuracy of your quotes and the rebuttal's to your own quotes henceforth. But it seems obvious that you are continually looking at your own language posted by us and responding to it. I know that is the case in my post as I never responded to any of your doctrine or opinion as a straight rebuttal.

Bro, as much as I may disagree with your doctrine and motives here, I urge you to please go no further with this.

AlivetoGod, thread brothers and sisters, am I missing something here? If so, I owe Intense a sincere and regrettable apology.

Intense AKA Ormly is using those of us who have responded in Christian love and concern for a "brother" who has lost his way. However, he is not a sheep, but a goat, and as such has no interest in the Scripture that we post that refutes 100% of what he posts and 100% of what he believes.

But now I find out that intense has been here in the past as ORMLY. His posts are so outside those of orthodox Christianity, they do not deserve the time of day for a response, or even the venue of sermonindex to post his cultish ideas online, in an effort to infect others.

This is a recent response by Intense, responding to a post by Anonymity:

[b]Anonymity wrote to Intense:[/b]

“He was made righteous by faith as it says in Hebrews. Yes this faith is mingled with works but it is not the works that save you but merely the faith that produces works. It was Noah's faith/trust/belief/humility/dependence/surrender to God that made Him righteous. Once again it is not works that saves you but faith in Christ that will in turn result in works as fruit.

[b]Intense’s response to Anonymity:

Yep however, in Noah's case, it could only be faith in God. Jesus wasn't born and the Holy Spirit wasn't given. Elementary stuff, my friend.[/b]

[b]Walter's Response to Intense AKA Ormly

I would like to respond, using the Bible to refute EVERYTHING you have posted about the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ, as well as the Holy Spirit, as stated above:[/b]

The Bible’s answer to Intense:

YOU ARE DECEIVED BECAUSE YOU DO NOT KNOW THE SCRIPTURES:

1.Jesus Christ, in His pre-incarnate condition as God the Son, was the creator of Heaven and Earth, and everthing there is. He is the image of the unseen God, and walked and talked with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden.

John 1: 1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2. He was in the beginning with God. 3. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

Col 1:15-18
15. Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16. For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17. And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

[b] “The Angel of the Lord”, is found throughout the Old Testament, AND IS THE PRE-INCARNATE JESUS CHRIST:

The Angel Of The LORD[/b]

"...No one has seen God at any time..." (John 1:18; cf. 1 John 4:12) declared the apostle John. Given that Jesus is identified in Scripture as God (John 1:1), and that He has been sent among men (John 1:14; Matthew 1:23) to declare the Father to us (John 1:18; 14:9-10), it would seem appropriate to conclude that John's statement was with regard to the Father, not the Son. In fact, Jesus tells us that no one "...has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father." (John 6:46)

[b]And yet, there are occurrences, especially in the Old Testament where individuals saw the LORD. If no one has seen the Father at any time, who is it that was seen by these folks? Who is it that appeared to Abraham saying, "I am Almighty God..." (Genesis 17:1)? Who was the LORD that he entertained with a meal a chapter later (Genesis 18:1)? Who did Moses speak to face to face (Exodus 33:11)? The Scriptures reveal plainly that it was not the Father (whom no man has seen at any time), but rather the pre-incarnate Christ — Jesus, before He came in the flesh.[/b]

The Christ Led Israel From Egypt
•\tChrist was "...the spiritual Rock that followed them..." (1 Corinthians 10:1-4)
•\tMoses tells us "...the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of cloud..." (Exodus 13:21)
•\tExodus 14:19 calls this same One, identified by Paul as Christ and by Moses as the LORD "the Angel of God..."
The Christ Led Israel In The Wilderness
•\tPaul cautions us to not "...tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents..." (1 Corinthians 10:9; cf. Numbers 21:5-6). The inference is that they tempted Christ, for he was the One who journeyed with them in the wilderness.
The Christ Spoke To Moses From The Burning Bush
•\tStephen, in his review of Israel's history indicated that it was the Angel of the LORD who appeared to Moses in the burning bush (Acts 7:30, 35). In the Exodus account, the same individual is referred to as "...the Angel of the LORD... the LORD... God... the God of your father..." (Exodus 3:2-6)
The Christ Spoke To Moses And Israel From Sinai
•\tAgain, Stephen calls the One who spoke with Moses and the nation from Mount Sinai "...the Angel..." (Acts 7:38) The Exodus account refers to Him as "...the LORD..." (Exodus 19:20-21), "...God..." (Exodus 20:1-2), and "...My Angel..." (Exodus 23:20-23)

The Christ Foretold Manoah of Samson's Birth
• Manoah and his wife were told in Judges that they would have a child. The message came from "...the Angel of the LORD..." (Judges 13:16). Manoah was not aware who this was speaking to him, and asked His name. The response came from the Angel of the LORD, "Why do you ask My name, seeing it is Wonderful." (v 18) This is among the titles which are applied to the Christ (Isaiah 9:6)

• Manoah and his wife made an offering to the LORD, and "...it happened as the flame went up toward heaven from the altar – the Angel of the LORD ascended in the flame of the altar!" (v 20) What did they conclude from this? "...Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the LORD." (v 21). As such, he feared, "We shall surely die, because we have seen God!" (v 22)

[b]The Christ Appeared To Joshua [/b]
•"...a Man stood opposite him with His sword drawn in His hand... as Commander of the army of the LORD I have now come... Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped." (Joshua 5:13-15)

• The worship of angels is forbidden (Revelation 22:8-9), but Joshua bowed and worshiped, even as Moses had (Exodus 3:5).

[b]The Christ Appeared To Hagar [/b]
• "...The Angel of the LORD..." spoke to Hagar and "...she called the name of the LORD who spoke to her, You-Are-the-God-Who-Sees..." wondering, "Have I also here seen Him who sees me?" (Genesis 16:7-13)
• Years later, this same one heard the voice of Ishmael, and again spoke with Hagar. He is identified as both "...God..." and "...the Angel of God..." (Genesis 21:14-20)

[b]The Christ Appeared To Abraham [/b]
• On more than one occasion, the Angel of the LORD appeared to and spoke with Abraham. In Genesis 17:1, He identifies Himself as "Almighty God". In Genesis 18, again, the Angel of the LORD comes, with two other angels also. In Genesis 22, the Angel of the LORD stopped Abraham from doing harm to his son Isaac, stating, "...now I know that you fear God..." How did He know? "...you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me..." The sacrifice was being made to God, to the Angel of the LORD.

[b]The Christ Appeared To Balaam [/b]
• Throughout Numbers 22:22-35, "God", "the Angel of the LORD", and "the LORD" are used interchangeably to refer to the One who was angered at Balaam and stood against him in the way.

Several other texts speak about the Angel of the LORD, and indicate that this is the pre-incarnate Christ, one who is equal to the Father in His nature, the LORD, Jehovah God. The above should suffice to see the work of the Lord, even in Old Testament times, as the pre-incarnate Christ worked among the people of Israel.

[b]The Holy Spirit appears throughout the Old Testament, starting in Genesis:

The Holy Spirit in the Old Testament [/b]
The Holy Spirit was present upon the earth even before the creation of man: Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters (Genesis 1:2).
We see the action of the Holy Spirit in the lives of some of the people in the Old Testament. We see that the Spirit of the Lord "came upon" some of the central figures of the Old Testament at certain times. But this was an exceptional occurrence. The following scriptures are a few examples of this:
(Judges 3:10) The Spirit of the LORD came upon him, so that he became Israel's judge and went to war. The LORD gave Cushan Rishathaim king of Aram into the hands of Othniel, who overpowered him.

(Judges 6:34) Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Gideon, and he blew a trumpet, summoning the Abiezrites to follow him.

(Judges 14:6) The Spirit of the LORD came upon him in power so that he tore the lion apart with his bare hands as he might have torn a young goat. But he told neither his father nor his mother what he had done.

(1 Samuel 10:6) The Spirit of the LORD will come upon you in power, and you will prophesy with them; and you will be changed into a different person.

(1 Samuel 16:13) So Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the presence of his brothers, and from that day on the Spirit of the LORD came upon David in power. Samuel then went to Ramah.

(Ezekiel 11:5) Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon me, and he told me to say: "This is what the LORD says: That is what you are saying, O house of Israel, but I know what is going through your mind.

[b]When Moses grew tired of leading the people of Israel, God told him to gather together 70 elders of the people. God said that He would take some of the anointing of the Holy Spirit that was upon Moses and place it upon the 70 elders (Numbers 11:17). When the Holy Spirit came upon the elders, they prophesied. Even two men in the camp that did not come out to the meeting tent began to prophesy. When the people came to Moses, they complained that the two mean were prophesying in the camp. But Moses replied, " And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the Lord's people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them!" Numbers 11:29

Moses looked forward to the time when all of the people of God could receive this anointing of the Holy Spirit. Joel prophesied that it would happen. Peter repeated the prophecy of Joel on the day of Pentecost, when God fulfilled His promise:

(Acts 2:16-18) 16. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17. And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18. And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:.[/b]

That is it for me, no more wasted time with Ormly, Intense, or whoever you really are. You have no interest in what I have just spent 1 hour putting together, just for you. It is hopeless to continue.

Sincerely,

Walter

Intense AKA Ormly is using those of us who have responded in Christian love and concern for a "brother" who has lost his way. However, he is not a sheep, but a goat, and as such has no interest in the Scripture that we post that refutes 100% of what he posts and 100% of what he believes.

But now I find out that intense has been here in the past as ORMLY. His posts are so outside those of orthodox Christianity, they do not deserve the time of day for a response, or even the venue of sermonindex to post his cultish ideas online, in an effort to infect others.

This is a recent response by Intense, responding to a post by Anonymity:

Anonymity wrote to Intense:

“He was made righteous by faith as it says in Hebrews. Yes this faith is mingled with works but it is not the works that save you but merely the faith that produces works. It was Noah's faith/trust/belief/humility/dependence/surrender to God that made Him righteous. Once again it is not works that saves you but faith in Christ that will in turn result in works as fruit.

Intense’s response to Anonymity:

Yep however, in Noah's case, it could only be faith in God. Jesus wasn't born and the Holy Spirit wasn't given. Elementary stuff, my friend.

Walter's Response to Intense AKA Ormly

I would like to respond, using the Bible to refute EVERYTHING you have posted about the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ, as well as the Holy Spirit, as stated above:

The Bible’s answer to Intense:

YOU ARE DECEIVED BECAUSE YOU DO NOT KNOW THE SCRIPTURES:

1.Jesus Christ, in His pre-incarnate condition as God the Son, was the creator of Heaven and Earth, and everthing there is. He is the image of the unseen God, and walked and talked with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden.

John 1: 1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2. He was in the beginning with God. 3. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

Col 1:15-18
15. Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16. For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17. And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

“The Angel of the Lord”, is found throughout the Old Testament, AND IS THE PRE-INCARNATE JESUS CHRIST:

The Angel Of The LORD

"...No one has seen God at any time..." (John 1:18; cf. 1 John 4:12) declared the apostle John. Given that Jesus is identified in Scripture as God (John 1:1), and that He has been sent among men (John 1:14; Matthew 1:23) to declare the Father to us (John 1:18; 14:9-10), it would seem appropriate to conclude that John's statement was with regard to the Father, not the Son. In fact, Jesus tells us that no one "...has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father." (John 6:46)

And yet, there are occurrences, especially in the Old Testament where individuals saw the LORD. If no one has seen the Father at any time, who is it that was seen by these folks? Who is it that appeared to Abraham saying, "I am Almighty God..." (Genesis 17:1)? Who was the LORD that he entertained with a meal a chapter later (Genesis 18:1)? Who did Moses speak to face to face (Exodus 33:11)? The Scriptures reveal plainly that it was not the Father (whom no man has seen at any time), but rather the pre-incarnate Christ — Jesus, before He came in the flesh.

The Christ Led Israel From Egypt
• Christ was "...the spiritual Rock that followed them..." (1 Corinthians 10:1-4)
• Moses tells us "...the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of cloud..." (Exodus 13:21)
• Exodus 14:19 calls this same One, identified by Paul as Christ and by Moses as the LORD "the Angel of God..."
The Christ Led Israel In The Wilderness
• Paul cautions us to not "...tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents..." (1 Corinthians 10:9; cf. Numbers 21:5-6). The inference is that they tempted Christ, for he was the One who journeyed with them in the wilderness.
The Christ Spoke To Moses From The Burning Bush
• Stephen, in his review of Israel's history indicated that it was the Angel of the LORD who appeared to Moses in the burning bush (Acts 7:30, 35). In the Exodus account, the same individual is referred to as "...the Angel of the LORD... the LORD... God... the God of your father..." (Exodus 3:2-6)
The Christ Spoke To Moses And Israel From Sinai
• Again, Stephen calls the One who spoke with Moses and the nation from Mount Sinai "...the Angel..." (Acts 7:38) The Exodus account refers to Him as "...the LORD..." (Exodus 19:20-21), "...God..." (Exodus 20:1-2), and "...My Angel..." (Exodus 23:20-23)

The Christ Foretold Manoah of Samson's Birth
• Manoah and his wife were told in Judges that they would have a child. The message came from "...the Angel of the LORD..." (Judges 13:16). Manoah was not aware who this was speaking to him, and asked His name. The response came from the Angel of the LORD, "Why do you ask My name, seeing it is Wonderful." (v 18) This is among the titles which are applied to the Christ (Isaiah 9:6)

• Manoah and his wife made an offering to the LORD, and "...it happened as the flame went up toward heaven from the altar – the Angel of the LORD ascended in the flame of the altar!" (v 20) What did they conclude from this? "...Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the LORD." (v 21). As such, he feared, "We shall surely die, because we have seen God!" (v 22)

The Christ Appeared To Joshua
•"...a Man stood opposite him with His sword drawn in His hand... as Commander of the army of the LORD I have now come... Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped." (Joshua 5:13-15)

• The worship of angels is forbidden (Revelation 22:8-9), but Joshua bowed and worshiped, even as Moses had (Exodus 3:5).

The Christ Appeared To Hagar
• "...The Angel of the LORD..." spoke to Hagar and "...she called the name of the LORD who spoke to her, You-Are-the-God-Who-Sees..." wondering, "Have I also here seen Him who sees me?" (Genesis 16:7-13)
• Years later, this same one heard the voice of Ishmael, and again spoke with Hagar. He is identified as both "...God..." and "...the Angel of God..." (Genesis 21:14-20)

The Christ Appeared To Abraham
• On more than one occasion, the Angel of the LORD appeared to and spoke with Abraham. In Genesis 17:1, He identifies Himself as "Almighty God". In Genesis 18, again, the Angel of the LORD comes, with two other angels also. In Genesis 22, the Angel of the LORD stopped Abraham from doing harm to his son Isaac, stating, "...now I know that you fear God..." How did He know? "...you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me..." The sacrifice was being made to God, to the Angel of the LORD.

The Christ Appeared To Balaam
• Throughout Numbers 22:22-35, "God", "the Angel of the LORD", and "the LORD" are used interchangeably to refer to the One who was angered at Balaam and stood against him in the way.

Several other texts speak about the Angel of the LORD, and indicate that this is the pre-incarnate Christ, one who is equal to the Father in His nature, the LORD, Jehovah God. The above should suffice to see the work of the Lord, even in Old Testament times, as the pre-incarnate Christ worked among the people of Israel.

The Holy Spirit appears throughout the Old Testament, starting in Genesis:

The Holy Spirit in the Old Testament
The Holy Spirit was present upon the earth even before the creation of man: Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters (Genesis 1:2).
We see the action of the Holy Spirit in the lives of some of the people in the Old Testament. We see that the Spirit of the Lord "came upon" some of the central figures of the Old Testament at certain times. But this was an exceptional occurrence. The following scriptures are a few examples of this:
(Judges 3:10) The Spirit of the LORD came upon him, so that he became Israel's judge and went to war. The LORD gave Cushan Rishathaim king of Aram into the hands of Othniel, who overpowered him.

(Judges 6:34) Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Gideon, and he blew a trumpet, summoning the Abiezrites to follow him.

(Judges 14:6) The Spirit of the LORD came upon him in power so that he tore the lion apart with his bare hands as he might have torn a young goat. But he told neither his father nor his mother what he had done.

(1 Samuel 10:6) The Spirit of the LORD will come upon you in power, and you will prophesy with them; and you will be changed into a different person.

(1 Samuel 16:13) So Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the presence of his brothers, and from that day on the Spirit of the LORD came upon David in power. Samuel then went to Ramah.

(Ezekiel 11:5) Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon me, and he told me to say: "This is what the LORD says: That is what you are saying, O house of Israel, but I know what is going through your mind.

When Moses grew tired of leading the people of Israel, God told him to gather together 70 elders of the people. God said that He would take some of the anointing of the Holy Spirit that was upon Moses and place it upon the 70 elders (Numbers 11:17). When the Holy Spirit came upon the elders, they prophesied. Even two men in the camp that did not come out to the meeting tent began to prophesy. When the people came to Moses, they complained that the two mean were prophesying in the camp. But Moses replied, " And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the Lord's people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them!" Numbers 11:29

Moses looked forward to the time when all of the people of God could receive this anointing of the Holy Spirit. Joel prophesied that it would happen. Peter repeated the prophecy of Joel on the day of Pentecost, when God fulfilled His promise:

(Acts 2:16-18) 16. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17. And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18. And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:.

That is it for me, no more wasted time with Ormly, Intense, or whoever you really are. You have no interest in what I have just spent 1 hour putting together, just for you. It is hopeless to continue.

Sincerely,

Walter