So which is it? Are you still a sinner saved by grace or a saint

[color=000000] . . . learning not to sin; learning how to be faithful in Christ Jesus? [Eph.1.1 KJV]

New Testament Names for the People of God A number of names for the people of God in the New Testament emphasize different aspects of the relationship that believers have with God and with the world. Christian (call) was first applied in New Testament times, but the believers were more commonly referred to as saints because of the righteousness that was theirs by faith, or as the brethren (brothers) as a sign of their belonging to the family of God. They are God’s children by adoption, the elect or chosen ones. They are the beloved of God, a royal priesthood and servants of God. As God’s flock they are under the care of Christ, the Chief Shepherd of the sheep; while remnant contrasts the relatively small number saved by the gospel from the midst of unbelieving Israel. Pilgrim highlights the fact that believers are sojourners in the world, but they are not of it. Vine, W. (1997, c1996). Vine's complete expository dictionary topic finder . Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

“Wherefore it behoved Him in all things to be made like unto His brethren”. Heb.2.17

His “brethren” are those in whom He is born. Think about it.[/color]

[color=000000]I find it interesting that many here who consider me "wacked", a "Buddhist", a "Troll", "one who deals in Biblical numbers", a "deceiver of the brethren", a "Goat", "one who has lost his way" and whatever else pops into their minds, have not responded to this thread. I wonder why? Could it be they don't know what they are? . . I guess that is my fault as well even though I posted using the words of another, the Bible, supported by Vine. That is a sad commentary on all the "elect" of God here, who can't say so. Perhaps they are not so sure of themselves after all.

So does the Word share your body or not?[/color]

I would just like to comment that the opening words of the leading post in this thread,

'learning not to sin'

are not found the Bible.

Hello Intense,

Perhaps they are not so sure of themselves after all.

Hello Alive,

[color=000000]"By regeneration the Son of God is formed in us, and He has the same setting in our physical life as He had when He was on earth. Are we remaining loyal to Him in the things which beset His life in us?"

Chambers, O. (1996, c1960). The philosophy of sin : And other studies on the problem of man's moral life. Hants UK: Marshall, Morgan & Scott.

I find it difficult to understand that so few, who claim to know the Bible, realize that the divinity that was in the man Jesus that, by His obedience is now made available for their lives.
"And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure."
1 John 3:3 (KJV)

[/color]

Hi Orm,

As in most of the great truths in Scripture, for us their is a tension. While it is certainly true that I am an adopted child of God, I am a priest in a Royal priesthood, Jesus has deemed to take up residence in my heart through His precious Holy Spirit and I rejoice in all of that, yet humility is the order of the day to a genuine saint. Not a humility that would deny who we were in Christ, but a humility that knows that despite who we are in Christ we are ever seeking to be "perfect," as He is perfect. We "beware when we stand, lest we fall." The mark of a "saint," will be his love and humility. He will only ever want to talk about Jesus, about His Heavenly Father. He will be so enraptured by the presence of God, so amazed that a wretch such as himself was deemed worthy of such great love and sacrifice of Calvary, that his constant focus will be on Jesus and becoming more like him. He will never be "familiar," in the presence of God.
We are not divine. Divinity dwells within us, within our corruptible flesh. Our flesh will be corrupt until the day that it is raised in incorrption. This is not a self-loathing on my part, its a simple acknoledgment of the truth revealed by the Holy Spirit in His Word, Romans 7. Yet despite this law of sin in my flesh, I walk in the glorious freedom revealed in the Chapter 8. What a mystery, what a joy that the Lord has made a way where there seemed to be no way. As long as I stick to the narrow path, then I will find my way home. As long as I continue to overcome, then I wil, find my way home. And the glorious truth? I am empowered by God Himself to overcome. I am of good cheer because Jesus Himself overcame. Therefore I can too........Frank

To Intense:

[b]Your "ideas" about Jesus Christ and man are not found in Scripture, either from the Old or the New Testament. They are not found in Church history.

Your ideas are nothing more than your ideas, devoid of scripture and devoid of the truth of God.

Your ideas are cultish, worse than I ever imagined at the beginning of your appearance here as "intense". I originally thought you were of the Mormon faith, but what you have posted shows that you have your own cult. Based upon your PM to me, you have 10 followers who have swallowed your "teachings" hook, line and sinker.

On top of all of that, now we find out you are actually "Ormley". Who are you really? I know that you are not from the sheep, but from the goats.

I suggest to other true believers in Jesus Christ--- to other "sheep" to completely ignore this goat Ormley/Intense. Shun him! He is dangerous for the young sheep that visit this wonderful site, Sermonindex. His motive is to trap young sheep, and bring them into his fold of goats, into his own cult![/b]

Sincerely,

Walter

Intense wrote:
Hello Alive,

[color=000000]"By regeneration the Son of God is formed in us, and He has the same setting in our physical life as He had when He was on earth. Are we remaining loyal to Him in the things which beset His life in us?"

Chambers, O. (1996, c1960). The philosophy of sin : And other studies on the problem of man's moral life. Hants UK: Marshall, Morgan & Scott.

I find it difficult to understand that so few, who claim to know the Bible, realize that the divinity that was in the man Jesus that, by His obedience is now made available for their lives.
"And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure."
1 John 3:3 (KJV)

[/color]

[color=000000] :-) Interesting that one who proclaims to belong to Christ Jesus and yet speaks from little knowledge about Him. Strange, that he doesn't know that the Word who became flesh, still is. Glorified and sitting at the right hand of God; the "Firstfruit" of many son's who will be "brought unto Glory" is a Man, Jesus. Joint-heirs with Him in His Throne will be those who have learned [are learning] to love God with all their heart, soul, mind and strength.. Strange indeed, this ignorance that can find nothing but fault in others understanding of the message of Jesus Christ; accusations that border on blasphemy. . . .argue with that.[/color]

As Satan gets more of his way and the hatred rises to a greater pitch here no doubt, CHSSCK will lock this thread down as well.

It may seem like a play on words however, all I ask is to see it from a perspective that goes unoticed:

"Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, [color=000000]to the saints[/color] which are at Ephesus, [color=000000]and to the faithful[/color] in Christ Jesus"
Ephesians 1:1 (KJV)

It is as simple as that when saying we are no longer sinners but saints, learning how, not to sin. . . or learning how to be faithful in Christ Jesus.

Can you see it??

TaylorOtwell wrote:
Intense,

I think a better question is can you find us one "saint" in the Bible who was not a member of a visible, local church where they gathered with other believers?

With care in Christ,
Taylor

In times of Roman conquest, many churches were not so visible.

TaylorOtwell wrote:
I understand that during times of persecution, churches were sometimes less visible. However, that is not the situation here.

Your beliefs clearly put you outside of historic Christian beliefs, therefore, out of all existing churches. Now, the question I'm getting at is, can you really Biblically be called a "saint" if your are completely outside of the churches of Christ, both presently and historically? And, since there is no saint in the Scripture that was not also a member of a visible church.

My beliefs?? I rest in what Paul wrote: Everything Paul wrote in any one of his letters.. More than that from you and I will take as an attempt by you to pick fly dirt out of pepper.

Pick away, my friend

A Christian WAS a sinner saved by grace. He no longer is! . . IF HE IS A CHRISTIAN. Are you a Christian? Are you still a sinner. SHAME!

Not confusing at all. Let me ask this question: Are you seated with Christ in Heavenly places?

Note the sign: "No sinners allowed".

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Hi intense...

So which is it? Are you still a sinner saved by grace or a saint?

Why does it have to be one thing or another? Perhaps a [i]saint[/i] is simply a [i]sinner saved by grace[/i]?

Just a thought. I think that we dig too deeply into things that just aren't meant to be that confusing.

Why all of this nonsense in wanting to shift it around to make me the subject? I am not the subject as you wish it to be. Understanding that we are saints who were sinners, who have been saved by grace, is the issue. A born again individual is indwelt by the very Nature of God, who seeks to have His Character developed in that one as was in Jesus; Imputation unto impartation. That is not cult thinking, Buddhism, "goatism or any other "ism". It is good Bible.

I asked the question that has been ignored [per usual]: Are you seated with Christ in Heavenly places? Let me now add another: Have you reckoned yourself self dead to sin? Please don't ignore those two questions. Deal honestly with them. If the answer is no, repent and get on with it. We have a loving and forgiving God. I am not here to condemn anyone. Learn that if you are born again, He is your Father.

I wrestle with the same issues. However, I do know I am a saint . . learning how to become faithful in Christ Jesus. [EPH 1.1]. I am a child of God learning by the teaching of Holy Spirit, to become a son, to be "brought unto Glory" IN Christ Jesus, as Jesus Christ was brought unto..

TaylorOtwell wrote:
[b]Are you seated with Christ in Heavenly places?[/b] Yes.

[b]Let me now add another: Have you reckoned yourself self dead to sin?[/b] Yes.

Yes! and Yes! And now I am free to learn not to sin and to be faithful in Christ Jesus. Does that makes sense? I now have liberty to do that BECAUSE I am in Christ Jesus. He set me free! Does that ring a bell?

[color=000000]"And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure." 1 John 3:3 (KJV) [/color]

Hi Intense,

If what you wrote in your last post is true, what was all that stuff in the Adam's sin ... our guilt? thread, about the Mount of Transfiguaration being the pinnacle of Jesus' life - or, that suggestion you made - that Mary was a model for 'the church' in the mind of Christ?

Regarding the question in your thread title, you have not given a biblical definition of 'saint', yet, and I'd be interested to know how you'd phrase it. Would you be so kind?

Thanks.

No. I don't trust you.

now I am free to learn not to sin

It should read 'now I am free to practise not sinning'.... shouldn't it?

The test is given us that, in the failing or success, we "learn".

[color=000000] [i]"In your patience possess ye your souls."[/i] Luke 21:19.

"When a man is born again, there is not the same robustness in his thinking or reasoning for a time as formerly. We have to make an expression of the new life, to form the mind of Christ. “Acquire your soul with patience.” Many of us prefer to stay at the threshold of the Christian life instead of going on to construct a soul in accordance with the new life God has put within. We fail because we are ignorant of the way we are made, we put things down to the devil instead of our own undisciplined natures. Think what we can be when we are roused!"

Chambers, O. (1993, c1935). My utmost for his highest : Selections for the year (May 20). Grand Rapids, MI: Discovery House Publishers.[/color]

The test

Yup... Absolutely. And Paul would say, "Gird up your loins and be a man . . . get on with being a man of God!. . . . Overcome!"

Alive-to-God wrote:

The test

What test? Is it in the Bible?

How would anyone know if you were pure and holy without the test?

What test, you say?

Satan’s aim is to dethrone God in our lives. Are we going to let him?

hmmhmm wrote:

Intense wrote:

Alive-to-God wrote:

The test

What test? Is it in the Bible?

How would anyone know if you were pure and holy without the test?

What test, you say?

they can see it, they need no test, its obvious in your separation from sin, and the world.

when others curse and swear you bless and love.
when others take you give
when others try "be someone" you are trying become smaller so he can become bigger ect ect ect

all these things will be clearly shown in your everyday life at work, at school, and most important in your home, how we think, spend our money, our time, how we speak to our wifes and children ect.....

this way they will know if we are pure and holy, by your life, how you speak to your wife children and all the rest, you are a stranger, not like the others, something is "wrong" with you in the worlds eyes.

[color=000000]That isn't a test but a change in disposition; the mark of the born again. Can you see it? The test comes to prove you are being sustained in your "Christlike", disposition. :-) [/color]

Orm, the girls are calling you out my friend. Remember, the same book that tells us that he who says he is without sin is a liar, also tells us that we shall know them by "their love for one another." Its humility Orm, you will always know a saint by his humility. Now, a saint will also speak the truth in love and not depart from that path, no matter what the cost, but it will be the truth in Love. We can use the truth to belittle people or run them down or try and destroy them with it, but those who speak the Truth in Love do so for building up and edification's sake. I am not saying that you fall into any of these categories my friend, just speaking the Truth in Love :)................Frank

Never mind . .delete

delete by author

Who and what is Ormley AKA Intense part of? That has been my question from the beginning. At first, I thought he was a Mormon (LDS) masquerading as a Christian. Then, as time went on, I thought he was perhaps from the International Church of Christ, but it didn't seem to fit.

His intent was clear ---to draw the baby Christians into his lair. He does this by deceit, never letting anyone know who or what he truly is or what he truly believes. As Christians, we are called to be witnesses for Jesus Christ, to be the salt & light of the world, and to be open and honest with all of those in our paths. Cultists, on the other hand try to trick others by deceit, and draw them into their false beliefs. They are of their father, the devil, the master of deceit.

What follows is a link that Ormley/Intense sent me in regards to “why the Protestant Reformation failed”. The article is written by an unknown, Frank M. Walker with no degrees or educational accomplishments, nothing. I can find nothing about him on Google. The person who created the tract, that you will find below is Raymond Clark, DD. (another unknown) “Doctor” Clark is an Associate Professor of “ Biblical Studies” at Covenant College , located at Lookout Mountain, Georgia. He is also a "Sabath keeper".

When I questioned the credibility of the unknown writer, without any credentials, as well as Raymond Clark, DD an Associate Professor at Covenant College (another question mark), I received this response from Ormley/Intense:

‘Your attitude STINKS!!! You conceited Fop!”

[url=www.yashanet.com/library/reformf.htm.]Why the Protestant Reformation failed[/url]

This is Ormely/Intense website that he referred me to, a "Sabath" keepers, cultish, website:

[url=www.yashanet.com]Yasha Net Website[/url]

[b]This is what is stated for the purpose of the Yasha Website:

YashaNet exists to:
•Explore the truth of the Torah in order to determine its role in our lives -- to lead people to a better understanding of G-d and how we are to be conformed to His image.

•Help to correct the misunderstandings and misinterpretations of the Torah, the rest of the Tenakh, and the books of what is commonly called the "New Testament."

•Re-establish the foundation upon which a proper understanding of Yeshua as Messiah stands; correcting the disassociation from its historical Hebraic context. [/b]

I pray that all eyes will be opened about this deceiver in our midst, Ormley AKA Intense

Sincerely,

Walter

GeneralJack wrote:
I joined just to enter this discussion. I was wondering who your mentors were "intense"?

GeneralJack wrote:
I joined just to enter this discussion. I was wondering who your mentors were "intense"?

Oswald Chambers, all of his writings, I would say and whomever affected his thinking. There are some "potatoes" in the deal however, the meat is plentiful.

DeVern Fromke ["Ultimate Intention" and "Unto Full Stature"], placed me in the proper perspective to further understand Chambers and the issue of son-ship. In fact, they greatly compliment one another. I have been mentored by them both for many years to see the why of it all that the traditional church has failed in its institutionalized program of explaining Jesus Christ from the single issue of redemption. I hope that helps. . Ken

The below is why I find I can trust no one on "Christian" forums. What is said in private should remain in private. So much for trusting Waltern.

The enemy is quick to expose any weakness in another however it is instigated by him for it to be revealed. Waltern needs salvation.

I am not the cultist here, Waltern is. He is unteachable and will go to any degree to tear down what goes against his agenda of tearing down that which speaks of intimacy with God, as a Father. The enemy fears this intimacy because the end of it is Joint-heir-ship with Jesus Christ.. That is why there be but few who will find it. Jesus warns us of this contention for the prize.

I was seeking to do a study on Rome in Judea at the period when Jerusalem was sacked by them. I placed in my search engine, "Rome and Judea". This is one site I came up that he now wishes to lambaste: http://www.yashanet.com/studies/romstudy/index.htm . . Read the four intros to find what I submitted to him that he conveniently, for agendas sake, ridicules. Pray for Waltern. I rest my case.

waltern wrote:

Who and what is Ormley AKA Intense part of? That has been my question from the beginning. At first, I thought he was a Mormon (LDS) masquerading as a Christian. Then, as time went on, I thought he was perhaps from the International Church of Christ, but it didn't seem to fit.

His intent was clear ---to draw the baby Christians into his lair. He does this by deceit, never letting anyone know who or what he truly is or what he truly believes. As Christians, we are called to be witnesses for Jesus Christ, to be the salt & light of the world, and to be open and honest with all of those in our paths. Cultists, on the other hand try to trick others by deceit, and draw them into their false beliefs. They are of their father, the devil, the master of deceit.

What follows is a link that Ormley/Intense sent me in regards to “why the Protestant Reformation failed”. The article is written by an unknown, Frank M. Walker with no degrees or educational accomplishments, nothing. I can find nothing about him on Google. The person who created the tract, that you will find below is Raymond Clark, DD. (another unknown) “Doctor” Clark is an Associate Professor of “ Biblical Studies” at Covenant College , located at Lookout Mountain, Georgia. He is also a "Sabath keeper".

When I questioned the credibility of the unknown writer, without any credentials, as well as Raymond Clark, DD an Associate Professor at Covenant College (another question mark), I received this response from Ormley/Intense:

‘Your attitude STINKS!!! You conceited Fop!”

[url=www.yashanet.com/library/reformf.htm.]Why the Protestant Reformation failed[/url]

This is Ormely/Intense website that he referred me to, a "Sabath" keepers, cultish, website:

[url=www.yashanet.com]Yasha Net Website[/url]

[b]This is what is stated for the purpose of the Yasha Website:

YashaNet exists to:
•Explore the truth of the Torah in order to determine its role in our lives -- to lead people to a better understanding of G-d and how we are to be conformed to His image.

•Help to correct the misunderstandings and misinterpretations of the Torah, the rest of the Tenakh, and the books of what is commonly called the "New Testament."

•Re-establish the foundation upon which a proper understanding of Yeshua as Messiah stands; correcting the disassociation from its historical Hebraic context. [/b]

I pray that all eyes will be opened about this deceiver in our midst, Ormley AKA Intense

Sincerely,

Walter

GeneralJack wrote:
I joined just to enter this discussion. I was wondering who your mentors were "intense"?

Thank you Pratick and MayIfearHim

Intense, why does it matter to you whether something is stated in private or not if you have nothing to hide? Perhaps the function of PM is for direct communication that implies a private conversation, but does that preclude transparancy on the part of the Christian? Are you mad because Waltern may have violated ediquette or because you yourself were exposed in anger??

Quite simply this: Are you denying that you called Waltern a "Conceited Fop"?

If not then is this Christlikeness? Perhaps you need repentence as well. You said HIS 'attitude stinks' then your attitude had the gull to call him a conceited Fop (whatever that means).

I can see why PM would be a good venue for such name calling because as you well know it wouldn't much be tolerated on the open forum. I don't think it's an excuse for doublmindedness. It's a little juvenile, and hypocritical, to bite in private then wax a shine on your disposition in public. God sees the PM attitudes as well, even if they escape us here.

I don't think you need to 'rest your case' with us by over-explanation and counter-accusation. Be a man!! If what you've been accused of is true then you need to rest your case with God.

If what Waltern said is not true then obviously his repentence is necessary. Which is it?

ccrider wrote:
Intense, why does it matter to you whether something is stated in private or not if you have nothing to hide? Perhaps the function of PM is for direct communication that implies a private conversation, but does that preclude transparancy on the part of the Christian? Are you mad because Waltern may have violated ediquette or because you yourself were exposed in anger??

Ediguette and decorum. Thats it.

Quite simply this: Are you denying that you called Waltern a "Conceited Fop"?

Why deny what I said? Why do you even ask except for what I am able to read from you?

If not then is this Christlikeness? Perhaps you need repentence as well. You said HIS 'attitude stinks' then your attitude had the gull to call him a conceited Fop (whatever that means).

I still mean it. Would it have been better to use the words of Jesus on such a one?

I can see why PM would be a good venue for such name calling because as you well know it wouldn't much be tolerated on the open forum.

So why your question?

I don't think it's an excuse for doublmindedness. It's a little juvenile, and hypocritical, to bite in private then wax a shine on your disposition in public. God sees the PM attitudes as well, even if they escape us here.

Indeed He does and more, like your heart right now..
There is no double mindedness in my remark I made to him in private . Why not address him as you are me for posting as he did? Where is his "Christlikeness" in returning evil for evil? Got a word for him "Bro"? Is this not a demonstration by you, in what double mindedness really is? Examine yourself before bringing correction to anyone else.

Again, I rest my case. . . . Ken

ginnyrose wrote:
QUOTE:
I find it difficult to understand that so few, who claim to know the Bible, realize that the divinity that was in the man Jesus that, by His obedience is now made available for their lives.

I still would appreciate an explanation of this statement..

ginnyrose

Based upon your understanding that I read from you, I find it difficult you have a problem with that. I would rather have expected an, "Amen"!

What does John 20.22 say to you?

Consider when you review that passage that that was the first administration of the Holy Ghost the man, Jesus, made after His Glorification.

ginnyrose wrote:
As I understand this comment "realize that the divinity that was in the man Jesus that, by His obedience is now made available for their lives" it would imply we can be divine. To me this borders on the heretical.

Why must it be so when we both know what the limitation is? So why argue over it?

Question: When did Jesus [in actuality] demonstrate His divinity?

"Indeed He does and more, like your heart right now..
There is no double mindedness in my remark I made to him in private . Why not address him as you are me for posting as he did?" Intense

How is there no doublemindedness in the namecalling in PM and not right here for all to see? You're not hiding anything right? Then just lay it all out here Intense. Name call here!!! When you name call in anger under an assumption of privacy but refrain from such behavior on the forum... that's doubleminded as far as I'm concerned.

You yourself called on Waltern to repent. Right? Then I don't need to. That's why I didn't address him. You, however, did not call on yourself to repent, just him, so I called you out. You say he needs to repent for ediquette and decorum's sake but you don't for name calling in anger. Yet what kind of decorum are you displaying in PM when you unload on a brother like you did?

"your attitude stinks" ..... "you condeited Fop". Can someone tell me what 'Fop' means?

How is telling someone THEIR attitude stinks then in anger (what did Christ say about 'anger'? what does the Bible say about exclaiming 'you fool'?) call them a name in a questionable attitude itself not doublemindedness?

You sit here as a judge of Waltern's attitude and my heart just by presenting the facts (as you have not denied them) and calling you out.

Yet somehow you've done no wrong here.

"Why not address him as you are me for posting as he did?"

I've told Waltern on prior threads that I thought some of his intentions in debate were simply argumentative and self absorbed.

I call you out because you don't hold yourself accountable for anything even now.... just everyone else.