Here is an example of OT Scripture which reveals the mystery spoken of in the NT.
Job 33:25\t His flesh shall be fresher than a child's: he shall return to the days of his youth:
Job 33:26\t He shall pray unto God, and he will be favourable unto him: and he shall see his face with joy: for he will render unto man his righteousness.
In Christ
Jeff
And your question is.....???? please explain
Rookie,
Colossians 1 tells us what the Mystery is. It is Christ in you, the hope of [i][b][color=990000]GLORY[/color]
The Spirit of the Life of Christ was not available in the OT. The Spirit o the life of Christ is the risen Christ.
Your scripture of Job 33:25 and Job 33:26 has nothing to do with the Mystery.
Paul tells us the Mystery was not revealed in the OT.
You see, the Mystery of Christ in you is the Mystery that we are begotten sons through Jesus Christ, and will be Glorified together with Christ. We are told we are flesh of His Flesh and Bone of His Bone. Paul also tells us more about this Mystery in Ephesians 5.
When we have been Completely redeemed and Glorified together with Christ, we will be with Him. Also we don't know what we will be but we know that we will be like Him for we shall see Him as He is. If His flesh is fresher than a child's...I suppose ours will be too. But as for now, our outer man is perishing, and it's our inward man that is being renewed day by day. Our inward man is not our flesh being made over, but crucified with Christ.
Keep studying!
Blessings,
R.G. Benjamin
Brother Benjamin wrote:
Your scripture of Job 33:25 and Job 33:26 has nothing to do with the Mystery.
If one were to read Job chapter 33 in light of the NT one would clearly see the gospel.
Brother Benjamin what do you hear spoken in this section of Scripture Job 33:25-26?
In Christ
Jeff
Jeff, What I hear is one of the friends of Job speaking. However this speaker accuses Job of wickedness. The end of Job, God speaks, and accuses all but Job of not speaking the truth.
Please tell me exactly what these verses mean to you? Are you saying that the Mystery is that your flesh will be softer than a baby's bottom and with that God will answer your prayers?
A rather shallow understanding of salvation isn't it?
Blessings,
R.G. Benjamin
Brother Benjamin wrote:
Jeff, What I hear is one of the friends of Job speaking. However this speaker accuses Job of wickedness. The end of Job, God speaks, and accuses all but Job of not speaking the truth.
If you read the Scriptures in Job you will find that Elihu is not Job's accuser. Elihu in not one of the three that God condemns for their words. I exhort you to be a berean and search the Scriptures to see if what I am saying is true.
What does Scripture say of Elihu's words?
In Christ
Jeff
Jeff, Let's first establish the book of Job is about suffering. Next, lets make clear, in our Christian life we are to Count it all Joy James 1.
And did God in the end Praise Elihu? NO!
With that, it is only in these ater years that I've begun to understand there is an even worse kind of false “friend”. These are the ones I refer to as the “friends of Job”. I believe that most of us have experienced them. The sooner we come to understand the danger that their false teaching or interference, the happier we will all be.
These are the folks who claim to have somehow “figured God out” as though the Christian life were some kind of puzzle. They act as though following the Lord involves living out a formula. They fail to speak of the fact that those who embrace His way will walk, as He did, along a rugged road. After all, we follow in the footsteps of a Savior who’s greatest act of Love, His self giving embrace of death on a Cross, was deemed by most who witnessed it to be His complete failure.
These “friends of Job” seem to be everywhere these days. They fill the pulpits of some of Americas fastest growing “mega churches”. They flood our airwaves with their claims of health, wealth, prosperity and blessing for those who “really” get the Gospel, at least the Gospel they preach. Sometimes it is whatPaul warned of as “another gospel” (Gal. 1:6), which reduces our walk with God to following a formula.
These “friends of Job” are quick to wrongly judge when difficulties come into the lives of good people, as they inevitably will, or want to be the Holy Spirit of conscience in yours, distracting you from hearing God's voice specifically speaking to you.
The Book of Job is one of the treasures of the Bible. It reveals a truth about authentic spirituality to every age. The background of the Book is a dispute between Satan, whom the New Testament rightly refers to as the “accuser of the brethren” (Rev. 12:10), and God. Satan contends that Job served God for what He got from Him not for who God is. How rampant is this kind of self interested service of God in some of the Christian circles in our own time? How many self styled teachers seek to reduce Christian living to formulas?
At the beginning of this book we find the mystery of true faith. After his own wife told him to “curse God and die” Job spoke these words of caution and then wisdom, "Are even you going to speak as senseless women do? We accept good things from God; and should we not accept evil?" (Job 2:10)
In the midst of his discourse with these friends, he added the following acclamation which gets to the heart of the mettle of Job, "…even if he slay me, yet will I trust in Him." (Job 13:15)
These words were spoken to the self professed “experts” who had come to tell him how he could get out of the mess if he just followed their formulaic approach to religious living. They need to be shouted in some places in our own day. Job was fully surrendered to God. He refused to turn God into an object for His own use. He grasped the true mystery of a faith that really saves.
When we first encounter the “friends of Job” at the beginning of the Book they seem empathetic, tearing their cloaks, weeping and even spending a week with him in his anguish. But, their feigned compassion ends all too soon. They have something to tell Job, that is why they really came to be with him. They were not “compassionate”, in the Biblical sense. The ancient words in Hebrew and Greek translated “compassion” mean “to suffer with”. They had no interest in entering into Jobs pain but in blaming him and his behavior for it. After all, they had this whole faith thing “figured out” and they were going to enlighten him with their higher knowledge. Sound familiar? Perhaps in contemporary circles they would have given him the “latest” teaching from their superstar pastor or the new speaker making the circuit who had it all figured out, along with some formulaic use of the bible.
Blessings,
R.G. Benjamin
Brother Benjamin wrote:
Jeff, Let's first establish the book of Job is about suffering. Next, lets make clear, in our Christian life we are to Count it all Joy James 1.
And did God in the end Praise Elihu? NO!
Brother Benjamin, I read your whole statement and have not found that you have rightly spoke of Elihu's standing before God. Why?
In Christ
Jeff
Dear Jeff,
Is it possible for you to give explanation, dealing with the death and resurrection of Christ, the destruction of the devil, the sending of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, and Christ's statement in John 3:5, 6, how you believe Job was 'born again', (if that is what you are proposing)?
Specifically, I am requesting that you change your style (if only for me) from asking questions about OT texts, to a declamation of your belief on this point.
I have heard Carter Conlon call Job 'prophetic' (although I didn't note the name of the sermon, sorry), and this concurs with how I read him in places.
That Job's experience [i]foreshadows[i][b]was[u]born again
Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
This short sermon by Phil Goble - [url=http://www.podfeed.net/play/play.asp?id=13037]The Empty Tomb[i]his
Jeff,
The God of Eliphaz and the others becomes in their petty and exacting thoughts how God relates with mankind. It’s a fatal misconception of all religious externalists and moralizers. Their God is always a small God.
God does not class Elihu with Eliphaz, Bildad, and Zophar (cf) (Job 42:7) but he is still a dogmatist, and his eloquent sermon is marred by self-assertiveness (Job 32:8,9; 33:3).
God does not mention Job’s wife either, who we know counseled Job to curse God and die. Does that mean God approved of what she said? NO!
God’s judgment of Elihu is that he darkened counsel by words (Job 38:2) the very charge that Elihu had brought against Job. (Job 34:35; 35:16). Also, the dialogue of God to Job is free from any of the accusations Elihu stated.
Jeff, no one was Born Again in the OT. These certainly lived by faith. We are told in Hebrews 11 that these all died not having received the PROMISE. The Promise was the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is the New Covenant Promise. The New Covenant came into effect at the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Blessings,
R.G. Benjamin
I'm laughing, not at you brothers, just in the joy of finding Messiah, finding Jesus all thru the Tanakh, one of my favorites is when Jesus wrestles with Jacob by the banks of the Jabbok river all night long, and Jacob won't let Him go till He blesses him......another passage I love is Eldad and Medad, when they still have the Spirit resting on them, and some busybody complains to Joshua who complains to Moses, and Moses basically says, "would to God all the people have the Spirit rest on them, and that paryer was answered in Acts 2......oh, and who can forget the Four Suffering Servant Songs in Isaiah, blessed Scripture!! (hint look from Isaiah 42 to 54)
Messiah is come!!!
Jeff, Let's first establish the book of Job is about suffering.
I would suggest that Job is a book in which Satan suggests that God's people serve Him only when He blesses them or when things are favorable. There are many lessons in Job, but the one from the beginning to end is that Satan is a liar and God proves it.
Brother Benjamin wrote;
God’s judgment of Elihu is that he darkened counsel by words (Job 38:2) the very charge that Elihu had brought against Job. (Job 34:35; 35:16). Also, the dialogue of God to Job is free from any of the accusations Elihu stated.
This is not according to Scripture...
When God begins to speak out of the whirlwind, verse 2 of Job 38 is God's accusation against Job alone. We know this to be true because of Job's reply. Job confesses his guilt before God in the following Scripture...
Job 42:1 Then Job answered the LORD and said:
2 \t“I know that You can do everything,
\tAnd that no purpose of Yours can be withheld from You.
3 \tYou asked, “Who is this who hides counsel without knowledge?’
\tTherefore I have uttered what I did not understand,
\tThings too wonderful for me, which I did not know.
Please notice that in verse 3 above Job is the one who confesses to God not Elihu.
Here is a testimony given by Elihu...
Job 33
3 \tMy words come from my upright heart;
\tMy lips utter pure knowledge.
4 \tThe Spirit of God has made me,
\tAnd the breath of the Almighty gives me life.
5 \tIf you can answer me,
\tSet your words in order before me;
\tTake your stand.
6 \tTruly I am as your spokesman before God;
\tI also have been formed out of clay.
7 \tSurely no fear of me will terrify you,
\tNor will my hand be heavy on you.
Do you believe Elihu's testimony is true?
In Christ
Jeff
Are you the brother who once lived in, was it Topanga Canyon, wrote:
I'm laughing, not at you brothers, just in the joy of finding Messiah, finding Jesus all thru the Tanakh,
Jesus is the Holy One of Israel found throughout the OT.
Look up Jacob Prasch for his teaching of Christ in the OT.
God Bless
Jeff
Hi Sis,
Specifically, I am requesting that you change your style (if only for me) from asking questions about OT texts, to a declamation of your belief on this point.
I believe what these Scriptures say...
14 \tFor God may speak in one way, or in another,
\tYet man does not perceive it.
15 \tIn a dream, in a vision of the night,
\tWhen deep sleep falls upon men,
\tWhile slumbering on their beds,
16 \tThen He opens the ears of men,
\tAnd seals their instruction.
17 \tIn order to turn man from his deed,
\tAnd conceal pride from man,
18 \tHe keeps back his soul from the Pit,
\tAnd his life from perishing by the sword.
19 \t“Man is also chastened with pain on his bed,
\tAnd with strong pain in many of his bones,
20 \tSo that his life abhors bread,
\tAnd his soul succulent food.
21 \tHis flesh wastes away from sight,
\tAnd his bones stick out which once were not seen.
22 \tYes, his soul draws near the Pit,
\tAnd his life to the executioners.
23 \t“If there is a messenger for him,
\tA mediator, one among a thousand,
\tTo show man His uprightness,
24 \tThen He is gracious to him, and says,
\t“Deliver him from going down to the Pit;
\tI have found a ransom’;
25 \tHis flesh shall be young like a child’s,
\tHe shall return to the days of his youth.
26 \tHe shall pray to God, and He will delight in him,
\tHe shall see His face with joy,
\tFor He restores to man His righteousness.
27 \tThen he looks at men and says,
\t“I have sinned, and perverted what was right,
\tAnd it did not profit me.’
28 \tHe will redeem his soul from going down to the Pit,
\tAnd his life shall see the light.
29 \t“Behold, God works all these things,
\tTwice, in fact, three times with a man,
30 \tTo bring back his soul from the Pit,
\tThat he may be enlightened with the light of life.
Identify the NT precepts in the above Scripture, how many can you find?
Here is a start...who in the NT declares He is the 'light of life."
God Bless
In Christ
Jeff
Jeff asked:
Do you believe Elihu's testimony is true?
Jeff, can you show anywhere else in scripture Elihu's testimony is true. Can you find anywhere God confirmed Elihu's Testimony?
Verse 3: Our hearts deceive us. And He said MY WORDS...not God's words, or the Spirit of the Lord is upon me to say this to you.
Verse 4: is true for all
Verse 5: Who made Elihu Job's Judge and Jury?
Verse 6: NO ONE is our spokesman before God except Jesus Christ.
Verse 7: Just exactly who does Elihu think he is?
Did he ever say...the Lord sent me to you, or I am a prophet?
When we go through suffering, as we all will, one must be very careful to avoid Elihu's coming along wanting to be your Holy Spirit and conscience.
Only those who have actually gone through any suffering KNOWING through these things we see more clearly the Holiness of God, and just how small we are in comparison. This is what God revealed to Job AND what Job confessed before God.
Jeff, what exactly does James say about Job?
James 5:10-12
10Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience.
11Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.
And what does James say about Elihu?
12But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.
I believe James is saying here, be very careful what you say to others going through the Fellowship of His sufferings!
Again Jeff, you used a couple verses in Job to somehow try to prove OT people were Born Again, and that there is some mystery in youthful flesh and answered prayer.
You totally missed the whole point of the book of Job. I believe James clarifies the meaning quite well!
Blessings,
R.G. Benjamin
Job 42:7 And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.
Job 42:8 Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that ye have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job.
Job 42:9 So Eliphaz the Temanite and Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite went, and did according as the LORD commanded them: the LORD also accepted Job.
--- the three friends that needed to repent of [make sacrifice for] their words. Elihu Not Included.
There isn't a scholar in history that hasn't written that Elihu was Correct - because Job "justified himself before GOD - at GOD's expense."
Hi Brother Jeff.
Would you consider all of Hebrews 11 and focus then on the end verses.
Heb 11:36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
Heb 11:37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
Heb 11:38 (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us,
that they without us should not be made perfect.
GOD Bless you.
Jeff,
For me to take [i]anything[i]appears
"It came about after the LORD had spoken these words to Job, that the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, "My wrath is kindled against you and against your two friends, because you have not spoken of Me what is right as My servant Job has. 8"Now therefore, take for yourselves seven bulls and seven rams, and go to My servant Job, and offer up a burnt offering for yourselves, and My servant Job will pray for you For I will accept him so that I may not do with you according to your folly, because you have not spoken of Me what is right, as My servant Job has. So Eliphaz the Temanite and Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite went and did as the LORD told them; and the LORD accepted Job."
The Enemy will use truth, pervert it to get an hearing. Everytime. Hence, my reluctance to quote these OT windbags because it says they did not speak for God. Actually, while I find a lot of inspiring truth in their arguments, I will never quote them because God did not like their arguments.
My testimony about Job is that it teaches us so much about affliction and how other religious people will respond to your affliction. In Job 13:4 he calls these windbags 'physicians'. If indeed these fellows were doctors, they likely came with all their potions to treat Job's sores. They did what doctors do and sat back to see how it would work. So, when at the end of seven days and they saw no progress, they start out by saying it is because Job sinned ....Sound familiar? I think so....go through affliction and listen to all the 'comfort' that comes your way...
My understanding...
ginnyrose
Are you the brother who once lived in, was it Topanga Canyon,
yes.
Jesus is the Holy One of Israel found throughout the OT.
thank you, not meaning to sound snarky, I had that revealed to me by the Holy Spirit.
Look up Jacob Prasch for his teaching of Christ in the OT.
thanks for the info, neil
Jesus-is-GOD wrote:
Job 42:7 And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.
Job 42:8 Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that ye have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job.
Job 42:9 So Eliphaz the Temanite and Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite went, and did according as the LORD commanded them: the LORD also accepted Job.
--- the three friends that needed to repent of [make sacrifice for] their words. Elihu Not Included.There isn't a scholar in history that hasn't written that Elihu was Correct - because Job "justified himself before GOD - at GOD's expense."
I've wondered since posting this if I stated what I did within this last line Understandably enough or not.
Elihu Was Correct - he was Not named among Job's three friends that needed to repent of their words because as any commentator will show - Job had a bit of pride that GOD did deal with and Elihu was a bit disturbed with the other three friends for their error and out of politeness, being the youngest, waited until the three plus Job had finished speaking to "Defend GOD".
Hope that's clearer now. :-?
Hi Jeff,
I think it interesting that Elihu means 'He is my God'; and he came from a place called Ramathaim-zophim = "double height of the watchers".
I have no dispute with manifestations of Elohim in the OT; I don't doubt that Job, contemporary with Noah, Melchizedek and Abraham, had revelation.... Until the golden calf, there is reason to believe men saw God (Exo 24:10, 11). This is why Moses' face shone (Exo 34:33 - 35), and there is blessing associated with the face of God (Num 6:24 - 26), which becomes ours as we look Jesus in the face (2 Cor 3:18) through the Holy Spirit: Rom 5:2, Eph 2:18 - 20.
Although the concept of 'church' (Acts 7:38) began in the OT, and all they as we, will experience resurrection, there was still a need for the Messiah to come in every detail of the fulness of prophecy, show Himself as 'that Prophet' whom Moses foretold, and give a whole new terminology to the way His own people perceived God, described their relationship with Him, and, ministered to Him. So veiled was His glory, that when Peter answered a question correctly - Matthew 16:17. Also John 6:68.
Now, Job may have felt the same way about God, but Peter wasn't born again when he said those things, (and we assume he had repented, because his brother Andrew had been a follower of John the Baptist, and knew he (Peter) would want to follow the Messiah - John 1:40, 41).
Jesus was outside of him. We cannot honestly make the picture of their conversations say something (or anything) else. Luke 22:32. The reason we need the Holy Spirit [i][b]inside
Job 42:6, [color=330099]11 Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold. 12 So the LORD blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning:[/color]
And that's as far as he got.
[color=006699]John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, [u]and shall be in you[u]and ye in me, and I in you
29 [b]And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe
It's okay if you don't see the differences I'm pointing out, but I would still like you to lay our your case in your own words with scripture references, and answer the questions in my first post, to give the detail of how you personally believe Job's experience matches the terms of the New Covenant for us. I really would appreciate if you would make the time to do this.
:-)
Job probably got a bit more than is mentioned. Will Job not see the resurrection and see his children there also, specifically those who perished in one day. How else will he have [b]double
I have not studied the massive writings by the Rabbis but I would not be surprised if this point, regarding Job, , was not one of the reasons some did believe in the resurrection of the dead.
Jesus addressed, if not fully answered, the original question in this thread when He was examined by those that said there is no ressurection. And He said,reminding them of what God said in their Scriptures (Matthew 22:32): “I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are living/will be living and He is their God. I am thinking they were living when Jesus spoke and living when God spoke.
Of course covenants are distictive. And there are similarities. Just adding to the discussion.
Brother Benjamin wrote:
Jeff, can you show anywhere else in scripture Elihu's testimony is true. Can you find anywhere God confirmed Elihu's Testimony?
Verse 3: Our hearts deceive us. And He said MY WORDS...not God's words, or the Spirit of the Lord is upon me to say this to you.
Verse 4: is true for all
Verse 5: Who made Elihu Job's Judge and Jury?
Verse 6: NO ONE is our spokesman before God except Jesus Christ.
Verse 7: Just exactly who does Elihu think he is?
In the following Scriptures Elihu says this to Job 33:
8 \t“Surely you have spoken in my hearing,
\tAnd I have heard the sound of your words, saying,
9 \t“I am pure, without transgression;
\tI am innocent, and there is no iniquity in me.
10 \tYet He finds occasions against me,
\tHe counts me as His enemy;
11 \tHe puts my feet in the stocks,
\tHe watches all my paths.’
12 \t“Look, in this you are not righteous.
\tI will answer you,
\tFor God is greater than man.
13 \tWhy do you contend with Him?
Now read what God has to say to Job...
Job 40:
1 Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said:
2 \t“Shall the one who contends with the Almighty correct Him?
\tHe who rebukes God, let him answer it.”
Also
Job 40
8 \t“Would you indeed annul My judgment?
\tWould you condemn Me that you may be justified?
In these Scriptures God confirms Elihu's words. If you follow through the thoughts spoken by Elihu especially beginning with Job 36:22 through Job 37:24, and then listen to the words spoken by God out of the whirlwind, you will see the contents of Elihu's words in God's speech to Job.
In terms of your comment from James, this is getting off track to the current conversation. I am trying to focus on what we might learn from Elihu's words. Especially the words that speak to how God calls upon men and women, how God works to turn men from their wickedness so that they might be enlightened with the light of life.
In Christ
Jeff
Jesus-is-God asked:
Would you consider all of Hebrews 11 and focus then on the end verses.
Heb. 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good testimony.
Paul writes...
Rom. 4:13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, 15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.
Rom. 4:16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all.
The covenant given to Moses on Mount Sinai was not given to the nation of Israel so that they might, in the flesh, please God. Rather, the covenant of Moses was given so that those who were under the law might recognize their sin and the hopelessness of their plight according to the flesh. The law was given so that they might be taught the way leading to Christ. Those who lived by faith before the incarnation of Christ found the way leading to Christ.
Heb. 11:3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.
Paul writes...
Rom. 10:8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
Rom. 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
In Hebrews 11 we find examples given of men and women who heard God speak and then obeyed. This interaction between God and men caused men to hope for something better than this world has to offer. The faithful walk of these believers showed that they learned of a hope that far surpasses the covenant of Moses. For we have this testimony...
Heb. 11:24 By faith Moses, when he became of age, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, 25 choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin, 26 esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt; for he looked to the reward.
We have this testimony that Moses' hopes were centered on Christ, and that "he looked to the reward."
Yet there were others who did not receive the promise...
Heb. 4:1 Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. 3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said:
\t“So I swore in My wrath,
\t‘They shall not enter My rest,’ ” although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
In this testimony during the time of Moses, others did not obey the "gospel" that was preached to them. "The word which they heard did not profit them." Why, because they did not follow the commands of the Lord, the Holy One of Israel.
Well then, what promise had they not received?
Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb. 11:8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; 10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
Here it says that Abraham waited for the city which has foundations whose builder and maker is God.
Heb. 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Their hope for this "city" overcame their desire for the things of Egypt.
For we find this testimony...
14 For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. 15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.
All of these faithful had to wait for Christ to rise first.
Jesus said of Himself...
Luke 13:32 And He said to them, “Go, tell that fox, ‘Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.’ 33 Nevertheless I must journey today, tomorrow, and the day following; for it cannot be that a prophet should perish outside of Jerusalem.
Luke 13:34 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing! 35 See! Your house is left to you desolate; and assuredly, I say to you, you shall not see Me until the time comes when you say, “Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!’ ”
In verse 32, Jesus says that when He rises from the dead, He then will be "perfected."
So we have this verse at the end of Hebrews 11...
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us,
that they without us should not be made perfect.
The blood of bulls could not accomplish what the blood of Christ
has done. Without death, there could be no life. The blood of Christ confirmed the promise given to Abraham and to all who live by faith. The OT saints could not be made perfect without us because Christ had to rise first.
In Christ
Jeff
Sis wrote:
It's okay if you don't see the differences I'm pointing out, but I would still like you to lay our your case in your own words with scripture references,
This is my testimony according to the Scriptures found in Job 33.
In the first part of Elihu's words, he describes the ways God uses to turn men from their wickedness. In my case, this verse is applicable...
14 \tFor God may speak in one way, or in another,
\tYet man does not perceive it.
One day 13 years ago, I was working in my garden and contemplating how I should raise my 3 year old son. I myself had been raised in a strict greek catholic home. But over the course of time, through my college years and then my journey to California I had gone off the deep end which was centered in drug use and seeking satisfaction in the ways of the world. I had not considered God for 20 years.
As I thought to myself, I should expose my son to religion because I owed it to him, to give him a well rounded education, these words came to my mind....
"How can you teach him about Me, when you do not know Me?"
I realized at that moment that God had spoken to me. My heart swelled up in me...I was dumbfounded.
A couple of days later again working in the garden, an old man came walking up the road and invited me to attend church at a small conservative baptist church. So our family began attending this church. About a month later, I was harassed by two men of the church who kept asking me to go with them to a Promise Keeper's event in the LA Colliseum (sp?) So I gave in and went with them. During this time, I responded to the altar call given by Jack Hayford, a foursquare pastor in the LA area.
For two weeks I cried as I listened to the songs that we sang those days at that event. That was a wonderful time, I had been given a new song to sing, not as the world sings.
So the words spoken by Elihu resonate in my life...
14 \tFor God may speak in one way, or in another,
\tYet man does not perceive it.
And then...
23 \t“If there is a messenger for him,
\tA mediator, one among a thousand,
\tTo show man His uprightness,
24 \tThen He is gracious to him, and says,
\t“Deliver him from going down to the Pit;
\tI have found a ransom’;
Those 3 men were used by God to turn me towards Him.
Likewise my wife's testimony is found in the words of Elihu's...
For her shortly after my repentance, she was diagnosed with breast cancer. She cried out to God for the reason why this had occurred. During that time, God sent a woman to minister to her. He also sent a group of believers to encourage us in times of prayers on many Sunday evenings in the home of one of the believers. This is when my wife repented. I see this event centered in the words of Elihu...
19 \t“Man is also chastened with pain on his bed,
\tAnd with strong pain in many of his bones,
20 \tSo that his life abhors bread,
\tAnd his soul succulent food.
21 \tHis flesh wastes away from sight,
\tAnd his bones stick out which once were not seen.
22 \tYes, his soul draws near the Pit,
\tAnd his life to the executioners.
And then God sent His messengers...
23 \t“If there is a messenger for him,
\tA mediator, one among a thousand,
\tTo show man His uprightness,
24 \tThen He is gracious to him, and says,
\t“Deliver him from going down to the Pit;
\tI have found a ransom’;
In verse 24, God says this..."Deliver him from going down to the Pit, I have found a ransom."
In this verse God has found a ransom....is this not Christ?
In the next verse we find this testimony...
25 \tHis flesh shall be young like a child’s,
\tHe shall return to the days of his youth.
I can testify that I returned to my youth...I began to learn of a new way to live. I began to see hope grown in me by God for something more than this world had offered for the last 20 plus years.
26 \tHe shall pray to God, and He will delight in him,
\tHe shall see His face with joy,
\tFor He restores to man His righteousness.
Through following Him I continued to see my foolishness and ignorance that had corrupted me. And as I learn, I see "His righteousness" which brings joy to my life in ways that the world could never do.
And because of this relationship I also am seeing this worked out in my life...
27 \tThen he looks at men and says,
\t“I have sinned, and perverted what was right,
\tAnd it did not profit me.’
I too say to others that I had perverted what was right, and that this perversion brought only sorrow.
And as I follow, in the ups and downs of my walk, I have recognized this as I continue to feed on the whole counsel of God...
28 \tHe will redeem his soul from going down to the Pit,
\tAnd his life shall see the light.
And...
30 \tTo bring back his soul from the Pit,
\tThat he may be enlightened with the light of life.
When I find a believer...I often ask he or she, how was it that God brought you to repentance?
And it is always an "old old story" that Amy Crosby once penned.
The Holy One of Israel is His name.
In Christ
Jeff
Brother Neil wrote:
I had that revealed to me by the Holy Spirit.
When I was a new believer some Jehovah Witnesses attacked my stand on the doctrine of the Trinity. I prayed for God to give me assurance that this doctrine was true. He did that day, and has continued to reveal the Trinity that was, is now , and ever will be.
God Bless
Your brother in HaMelach Adonai,
Jeff
Sister Joan wrote:
I have not studied the massive writings by the Rabbis but I would not be surprised if this point, regarding Job, , was not one of the reasons some did believe in the resurrection of the dead.
Job 19:
23 \t“Oh, that my words were written!
\tOh, that they were inscribed in a book!
24 \tThat they were engraved on a rock
\tWith an iron pen and lead, forever!
25 \tFor I know that my Redeemer lives,
\tAnd He shall stand at last on the earth;
26 \tAnd after my skin is destroyed, this I know,
\tThat in my flesh I shall see God,
27 \tWhom I shall see for myself,
\tAnd my eyes shall behold, and not another.
\tHow my heart yearns within me!
Job spoke of the resurrection to come.
In Christ
Jeff
Hi Jeff,
You still have not shown how the OT saints were 'born again'.
They were physically dead when Christ came to earth, and already able to 'see' Him. John 8:56
When Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus He was talking to a [u]live
They have no need of such empowering for the overcoming of sin or for the word of their testimony of Christ.
They didn't have a regenerate heart during their lifetime, and now they are already freed through faith during their life, and through their natural death, from the bondage into which Adam brought the whole human race. Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
What am I not seeing?
Is this simply a matter of terminology - that [i]you want to call them 'born again'
Alive-to-God wrote:
You still have not shown how the OT saints were 'born again'.They were physically dead when Christ came to earth, and already able to 'see' Him. John 8:56
When Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus He was talking to a
[u]live[/u] person. How can a physically dead person be baptised in the Spirit, or filled with the Spirit - born again?They have no need of such empowering for the overcoming of sin or for the word of their testimony of Christ.
They didn't have a regenerate heart during their lifetime, and now they are already freed through faith during their life, and through their natural death, from the bondage into which Adam brought the whole human race. Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
What am I not seeing?
Is this simply a matter of terminology - that
[i]you want to call them 'born again'[/i] , and I don't think that's applicable to their experience of having lived with an unregenerate heart?
Luke 1:13-15 (NKJV)
But the angel said to him, “Do not be afraid, Zacharias, for your prayer is heard; and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you shall call his name John. And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth. For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink. [b]He will also be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother’s womb.
Hi Miccah,
Luke reported
Are you implying that John the Baptist was born again thereby?He will also be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother’s womb.
Sis wrote:
When Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus He was talking to a live person. How can a physically dead person be baptised in the Spirit, or filled with the Spirit - born again?
This is what Scripture says...
1Pet. 1:11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.
Peter declared that the "Spirit of Christ who was IN them" caused them to write the words of God.
Also when Jesus was talking to Nicodemus what did He say...
John 3:10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness.
Have you ever contemplated upon this thought..."We speak what We know and testify what We have seen."
What does Jesus mean by having already seen?
Why does Jesus imply that Nicodemus, the leader of Israel, should already understand these things?
In Christ
Jeff
Hi again Sis,
How should we interpret the Scriptures. Many look at Scriptures in finite time. But that is not correct. Here is an example.
In the book of Matthew we have this Scripture.
Matt. 1:22 So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying: 23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”
Matthew took this verse out of Isaiah. Let's look at this section of Scripture...
Is. 7:10 Moreover the LORD spoke again to Ahaz, saying, 11 “Ask a sign for yourself from the LORD your God; ask it either in the depth or in the height above.”
Is. 7:12 But Ahaz said, “I will not ask, nor will I test the LORD!”
Is. 7:13 Then he said, “Hear now, O house of David! Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will you weary my God also? 14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel. 15 Curds and honey He shall eat, that He may know to refuse the evil and choose the good. 16 For before the Child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that you dread will be forsaken by both her kings. 17 The LORD will bring the king of Assyria upon you and your people and your father’s house—days that have not come since the day that Ephraim departed from Judah.”
In this section of Scripture we know that this prophesy was fulfilled by God, in giving King Ahaz a son named Hezekiah.
Well then how could Matthew take Is 7:14 out of this section of Scripture and also apply it to the birth of Jesus?
In Christ
Jeff
Hi again Jeff, :-)
Probably you won't be surprised to learn that I don't accept this interpretation of this part of scripture. I only ever heard of it since I came to SI, and it has always surprised me that anyone would describe Hezekiah's mother as 'the virgin', since apart from Mary the mother of Jesus, no 'virgin' has ever conceived.In this section of Scripture we know that this prophesy was fulfilled by God, in giving King Ahaz a son named Hezekiah.
To say that 'we know' is also imo an exaggeration of this position, although it's true 'we know' other people hold to it. Whatever it's foundation, it has always struck me as carnal reasoning, added to which Hezekiah's mother and father called their son 'Hezekiah', [i]Jehovah is my strength[i]God with us
I am further confirmed in my rejection of the so-called multiple fulfilment of prophecies, after reading the author's notes at the beginning of the Orthodox Jewish Bible, where he discusses the Hebrew of Isa (Yeshayah) 7:14 in depth. [url=http://www.afii.org/OJB.pdf]OJB scroll to below Index, to The Translator to the Reader
Apart from the fact that it had not been fulfilled yet? Because of Joseph's experience, by which he could be sure Mary had not conceived by natural means. 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife:how could Matthew take Is 7:14 out of this section of Scripture and also apply it to the birth of Jesus?
Why would Joseph believe the angel? Well probably because a person's geneology was part of their upbringing, and he would know that he and Mary were both technically descended from David, thus fulfilling a well-known criteria of how the Messiah would be identified to and by His people.
Do you think, after angels had appeared in the sky announcing Christ's birth, and random shepherds had appeared to pay homage to the baby in Bethlehem, that Joseph was still wondering if he really had heard from an angel in his dream?
Remember also, that by the time Matthew was writing, there were mountains more evidence of fulfilled scripture, that when he was writing, he would have had to choose carefully which heap of relevant OT to [i]leave out
Lastly, you asked 'how?' My immediate thought was 'by the Holy Ghost', which had also inspired both Peter and Paul to refer to Isa 59:20, both altering it slightly to reflect their more perfect (complete) understanding of the outworking of it.
Acts 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, [b]in turning away every one of you from his iniquities
Rom 11:26 (b) There shall come [u]out of[b]and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob
Do we think Paul knew that Peter had said that, when he wrote Romans, or were they both being taught of God, how to understand the promises? Luke just happens to have recorded both of them. I think that's another act of God on our behalf, because Isa 59:20 doesn't say what Paul says it does, if you do simple English analysis on its meaning.
But, Paul was correct to revise Isaiah [i]for us[b]Isaiah was also correct[u]to
Sis wrote:
and it has always surprised me that anyone would describe Hezekiah's mother as 'the virgin', since apart from Mary the mother of Jesus, no 'virgin' has ever conceived.
What if "the virgin" who gives birth is the Holy Spirit?
Proverb 1:
20 \tWisdom calls aloud outside;
\tShe raises her voice in the open squares.
21 \tShe cries out in the chief concourses,
\tAt the openings of the gates in the city
\tShe speaks her words:
22 \t“How long, you simple ones, will you love simplicity?
\tFor scorners delight in their scorning,
\tAnd fools hate knowledge.
23 \tTurn at my rebuke;
\tSurely I will pour out my spirit on you;
\tI will make my words known to you.
Who is Solomon writing about above?
Where does only true wisdom come from?
Is it not Jesus thru the work of the Holy Spirit.
In Christ
Jeff
Hi Jeff,
I'm sorry, I didn't see the post before the last one I answered. so I'm going back to it now.
You said
If 'spirit' means 'breath', then it is literally impossible for a person to speak without 'breath' passing through the vocal cords. For that to happen, the Spirit has to be 'in' the man for God's word to come out. But it doesn't imply thePeter declared that the "Spirit of Christ who was IN them" caused them to write the words of God.
The following passage is a good example of God putting words [u]in
[color=0000FF]Numbers 22:28 And the LORD opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times? 29 And Balaam said unto the ass, Because thou hast mocked me: I would there were a sword in mine hand, for now would I kill thee. 30 And the ass said unto Balaam, [Am] not I thine ass, upon which thou hast ridden ever since [I was] thine unto this day? was I ever wont to do so unto thee? And he said, Nay. {upon...: Heb. who hast ridden upon me} {ever since...: or, ever since thou wast, etc} 31 Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and he bowed down his head, and fell flat on his face. {fell...: or, bowed himself} 32 And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Wherefore hast thou smitten thine ass these three times? behold, I went out to withstand thee, because [thy] way is perverse before me: {to...: Heb. to be an adversary unto thee} 33 And the ass saw me, and turned from me these three times: unless she had turned from me, surely now also I had slain thee, and saved her alive. 34 And Balaam said unto the angel of the LORD, I have sinned; for I knew not that thou stoodest in the way against me: now therefore, if it displease thee, I will get me back again. {displease...: Heb. be evil in thine eyes} 35 And the angel of the LORD said unto Balaam, Go with the men: but only the word that I shall speak unto thee, that thou shalt speak.[/color]
Yes I have. And you cannot leave out the second half of the quote, which gives greater contextual meaning to it.Have you ever contemplated upon this thought..."We speak what We know and testify what We have seen."
First, Jesus calls Nicodemus 'THE Teacher in Israel'. Then, whilst addressing him as '[u]thee[b]ye[u]alone
Isn't it that he actually came on behalf of a [i]group
Were you wishing to draw attention to the plural in which Jesus speaks? [color=0000FF]13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the [u]Son of man which [b]is[u]is
And, is not the Man, Jesus, both God, and Man - filled with the Holy Spirit?
Further, God's name of Elohim is used solely in Gen 1, (32 times) where as the Creator He began by saying 'Let Us make man in Our own image'. Interesting that in the context of [u]re
As one reads the rest of John 3, one comes to another picture of birth - that of coming to the light as a manifestation of truth as it is in God: [color=0000FF]21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.[/color] 3 John 1:4 = walk in the light 1 John 1:6, 7
Eph 1:4. The outworking of this inWhat does Jesus mean by having already seen?
I think it was slightly rhetorical, but in an encouraging way to him to be open to understand things as yet hidden from him (them), and, He said it with suchWhy does Jesus imply that Nicodemus, the leader of Israel, should already understand these things?
'We know' ;-) from the experience of the disciples over the next couple of years that even being with Jesus all the time, there was much they could not understand, even when Jesus was spelling it out in plain language. Later, Paul affirms this in 2 Cor 3:15, apart from Luke 8:10 - and we know that indeed Nicodemus was amongst those to whom it was given to see - John 19:39. One suspects that's why he was willing to visit Jesus personally, and sit at His feet. John 6:44
That's the way I see these things at present.
Hi Jeff,
Have you any scripture to support this interpretation of 'Holy Spirit'?What if "the virgin" who gives birth is the Holy Spirit?
Gen 17:1 - 'El-Shaddai means God Almighty. El points to the power of God Himself. Shaddai seems to be derived from another word meaning breast, which implies that Shaddai signifies one who nourishes, supplies, and satisfies. It is God as El who helps, but it is God as Shaddai who abundantly blesses with all manner of blessings.' [url=http://www.parentcompany.com/awareness_of_god/nog6.htm]Names of God
According to this name for God, He is not 'virgin' (meaning unwed, not [i]known
EDIT: Of course God is Holy. His children are Holy. Holy: meaning [i]separated unto Him alone
For instance, we could not call 'Israel' 'born again', even though he came into all God's blessing for him. Genesis 50:2
Perhaps you would kindly give a fuller explanation of what you had in mind?
Sis wrote:
If 'spirit' means 'breath', then it is literally impossible for a person to speak without 'breath' passing through the vocal cords. For that to happen, the Spirit has to be 'in' the man for God's word to come out. But it doesn't imply the indwelling Holy Spirit, whereby the Son and the Father abide in him. They cannot do that before the cross.The following passage is a good example of God putting words into the mouth of an ass or a man... But that wouldn't make either the ass or the man 'born again' ... would it?
Why do you start with the word 'If." The way I read your explanation, you yourself find what you write is highly unlikely.
But if you really believe what you wrote then I must ask, do you believe that the relationship Jesus had with a prophet like Moses is the same as Jesus' breathe being forced out of Balaam's donkey?
In Christ
Jeff
Sis wrote:
Of course God is Holy. His children are Holy. Holy: meaning separated unto Him alone, (not 'born again').
In Job 33, we find that Elihu describes the ways of God in terms of how God works to turn men back towards Him.
In this particular precept what does the words of Elihu mean to us?
26 \tHe shall pray to God, and He will delight in him,
\tHe shall see His face with joy,
\tFor He restores to man His righteousness.
More specifically, what does it mean when God, through Christ "restores to man His righteousness."
In Christ
Jeff
Hi Jeff :-)
I believe what I wrote. I don't believe the indwelling Holy Spirit can rest in a man continuously, unless he has been baptised into Christ's death, and makes every effort to co-operate with the new life God is giving him. I don't believe John the Baptist was born again in the way that those in the upper room were, on the day of Pentecost.Why do you start with the word 'If." The way I read your explanation, you yourself find what you write is highly unlikely.
I don't think they were the same kind of relationship. For instance, I think the donkey probably gave Him less trouble. She saw the angel immediately, and she knew she should stop, so that's what she did. Whereas Moses, even after all the demonstration of miracles daily in the wilderness, was prevented from entering in the old promised land, bydo you believe that the relationship Jesus had with a prophet like Moses is the same as Jesus' breathe being forced out of Balaam's donkey?
Of course he who had been drawn out of the water (representing the first birth), could not bring the children into the land of promise, because it needed Joshua (Jesus) 1 Cor 15:45, Heb 10:20, (His flesh: Moses had not been allowed to offer [i]his
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