Can you lose your salvation?
If you say yes to that question, how can you say you are trusting in Christ alone for salvation?
Are you not therefore trusting in your good works to secure your salvation?
How can you be saved believing and trusting in that?
Can you lose your mariage (divorce)?repentcanada wrote:
can you lose your salvation?if you say yes to that question, how can you say you are trusting in Christ alone for salvation?
are you not therefore trusting in your good works to secure your salvation?
how can you be saved believing and trusting in that?
If you say yes to that question, how can you say you are trusting in true Love alone for your relationship?
Are you not therefore trusting in your proof of your love for your wife (works) to secure your mariage?
How can you be maried believing and trusting in that?
Actually, yes would be most people's answer not because of the answers you've supplied but because they see themselves as unfit to begin with. It wouldn't be a question of works or maintaining their salvation, it would be simply "I am not worthy" and if any of these should slip up in anyway shape or form the thought of losing their salvation is of paramount concern. Many don't know what Jesus did on the cross. I know way too many Christians who think this way. Most of the damage has been done by preachers who kept drilling it into people that they "are not worthy". So they have a "I am not worthy" complex. Terrible bondage to be in of always wondering if your saved or not.
Logic I believe you are being illogical. Marriage and salvation are completely different.
Jesus Christ said in John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
He said I have everlasting life. To believe that I will not inherit that one day is saying that Christ lied.
The reason I posted this is because of the debate over eternal security. If someone believes you can lose your salvation, how can they themselves be saved? How can they say they believe in Christ?
It's a simple thought, but it has radical implications.
Look - i know this is sermon index with the sermons of many who believe that people who have been born again can lose their salvation (they though themselves believe THEY will never lose THEIRS - isn't that believing in their own works?), but I wish to question that and believe that is a heretical belief.
Gosh brother. You seem to have a very angry tone in your rather loaded line of questioning. Perhaps I should question your salvation in the same manner you question the salvation of those who believe other than you do? When one possess Biblical saving faith, one has come to an end of self. Have you truly done such? Perhaps you have, but it seems your old self is ruling here on the boards.
Just a brotherly observation.
It is VERY logical:repentcanada wrote:
Logic I believe you are being illogical. Marriage and salvation are completely different.
The atonement does not save anyone. Jesus is our salvation, our relationship with Him is what saves us; what HE did (atone for our sins) only makes it posible for us to have this "saving" relationship with the Father through His son (John 17:3).
What is everlasting life?He said I have everlasting life. To believe that I will not inherit that one day is saying that Christ lied.
If one walks away from HIM (apostatize), he will not have eternal life.
Strongs Greek #647:
αποστάσιον = apostasion = divorcement
We get the word "apostasy" from this word.
Because salvation is a relationship between two people, God and you/me.The reason I posted this is because of the debate over eternal security. If someone believes you can lose your salvation, how can they themselves be saved? How can they say they believe in Christ?
Fact is, many people have trusted Christ unto salvation, but after a while, departed from the faith because of offence, damnable herasy...etc...
Faith w/out works (fruit) is dead!Look - i know this is sermon index with the sermons of many who believe that people who have been born again can lose their salvation (they though themselves believe THEY will never lose THEIRS - isn't that believing in their own works?),
John 15:2-7
It is not a a heretical belief if you understand what salvation truly is.but I wish to question that and believe that is a heretical belief.
LOL - not angry at all and I am not even sure where you get that "discernment" from. My response had no capital letters or exclamation marks. Just asking a few simple questions here on SI that I believe are beneficial.
I am not acting in my old man here. And as well I want to say this - this is the first post I have started in a long time of any real doctrinal stance. If this is something that makes people angry, I will take that in consideration and bow out of writing anything on any serious level.
Logical - how can any believer be sure of their salvation then? How can any of us be sure we are born again?
I have witnessed others get railroaded from here on SI, and hope this isn't going to be the case with myself.
ps - when I wrote "heretical belief" I do not mean "lost" or "damned". I may have used the wrong choice of words, and rather than go back and delete my previous words I will say this.
This argument usually boils down to one side saying someone can lose their salvation if they return to and continue in willful sin and the other side saying that the person was never truly saved in the first place. Personally I am comfortable with either position. The third position is when the eternal security position degenerates into a "greasy grace" or "grace as a license to sin" position which states that someone can live in continual willful sin and still be saved because at one time they were saved and can not lose their salvation no matter what they do. This is the position that I have a problem with and believe is un-scriptural and gives people a false sense of security.
Here are a few scriptures for your consideration that talk about enduring to the end and about people who turn back to willful sin.
1.\tMatthew 10:22 - All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
2.\tMatthew 24:9-13 - "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved."
3.\tRomans 11:20-22 - But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
4.\t1 Corinthians 9:27 - No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.
5.\t1 Timothy 4:1 - The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
6.\tHebrews 3:12-14 - See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called "Today," so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.
7.\t2 Peter 2:20-22 - If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.
8.\t2 Peter 3:17 - Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
9.\tRevelation 3:5 - He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
10. Jud 1:3-6 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. (4) For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. (5) Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. (6) And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home--these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.
11. Matthew 7:19-23 - "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'”
12. Heb 10:26-31 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, (27) but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. (28) Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. (29) How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? (30) For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." (31) It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
God bless,
Patrick
www.jonahproject.org
I would add being decieved into d@mnable herasy.Christisking wrote:
This argument usually boils down to one side saying someone can lose their salvation if they return to and continue in willful sin and the other side saying that the person was never truly saved in the first place.
This argument usually boils down to one side saying someone can lose their salvation if they return to and continue in willful sin and the other side saying that the person was never truly saved in the first place. Personally I am comfortable with either position. The third position is when the eternal security position degenerates into a "greasy grace" or "grace as a license to sin" position which states that someone can live in continual willful sin and still be saved because at one time they were saved and can not lose their salvation no matter what they do. This is the position that I have a problem with and believe is un-scriptural and gives people a false sense of security.
I think this is a reasonable summary of things. I think our example of faith is clearly Abraham. our Lord pretty much summarizes it I think;
[color=000066]They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, [u]If[u]ye would do the works of Abraham
that is exactly the same argument i have brought up to those who believe you can lose your salvation by their works or their continued sin, their lack of works. Then it would be a works salvation which the Bible teaches will not get you saved.It is the grace of God which gives you faith to trust in his son, your faith or what i like to say God given faith. It is by nothing we do, the only thing it is because of Gods grace by faith. The only way if it was possible for you to lose your salvation is if you could lose your faith in christ, but works have nothing to do with it at all, because they our all abominable already. You made a great point, don't let anyone tell you different brother, seriously that is truth, keep it up. I have brought this before too others and what they our doing is turning this into their owns works salvation, not faith. And also a true born again believer will not want to sin or think it is a license to sin because God has changed his desires, that is huge misunderstanding of conversion and our new nature. God bless you.
that is exactly the same argument i have brought up to those who believe you can lose your salvation by their works or their continued sin, their lack of works. Then it would be a works salvation which the Bible teaches will not get you saved.It is the grace of God which gives you faith to trust in his son, your faith or what i like to say God given faith. It is by nothing we do, the only thing it is because of Gods grace by faith. The only way if it was possible for you to lose your salvation is if you could lose your faith in christ, but works have nothing to do with it at all, because they our all abominable already. You made a great point, don't let anyone tell you different brother, seriously that is truth, keep it up. I have brought this before too others and what they our doing is turning this into their owns works salvation, not faith. And also a true born again believer will not want to sin or think it is a license to sin because God has changed his desires, that is huge misunderstanding of conversion and our new nature. God bless you.
Just curious - how do you justify your statements against the following scripture and how do you interpret the following scripture. I am not saying you are wrong nor suggesting we can work our way to salvation and heaven just giving you some scripture to think about and chew on in light of you statement.
James 2:21,24-25
(21) Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
[b](24) Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
(25) Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
here it is in context
Jas 2:17-26 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. (18) But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.(19) You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! (20) But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? (21) Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? (22) Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? (23) And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. (24) You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. (25) Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? (26) For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
God bless,
Patrick
www.jonahproject.org
I am 100% Sure i am Saved
cos i am 100% sure that what my Lord Jesus did for me.
My Hope and my Joy is there and there alone.
Thank you Lord i am 100% saved.
Oh what a joy it is to be in Christ and Christ be in me oh prise the name of Jesus there is no other name that will make you 100% SURE.
Bless you all.
Just my two cents: I'm 100% sure I'm saved, and I'm 100% sure that salvation is by grace through faith in the obedience of the One, Jesus Christ, in His death and resurrection. I'm also 100% sure that should this faith of mine (which really isn't mine, but His), be no more, then I'm 100% sure I would go to hell.
I believe like any good Calvinist, that enduring and persevering faith is a requirement of eternal life. Where I differ with my Calvinist brothers is the belief that this is an automatic thing that will occur. I believe according to Philippians, that He who began a good work in me will complete it until the day of Christ Jesus. But if you look at the verse before that, Paul talks about that in the context of us continuing on in the faith by which we stand.
I believe it's God's will for my life to endure until the end, and that He will keep me by His power by faith. But for some reason should I choose to depart from the faith, while He exhorts me not to depart, He will not stop me from doing such.
I've personally known several people who were clearly saved, and who clearly bore the fruit of salvation and had the witness of the Holy Spirit decide to do this very thing. They were not false converts. Perhaps some of them will come back around, and my Calvinist brother's five point belief system will be vindicated. But should they not, I will not say they were false converts because they didn't endure until the end.
If you are not allowed to go by genuine discernment of their fruits to tell if others are really saved, then one is incapable of discerning their own personal salvation by the discernment of one's own fruit. Then one comes to the place of the Dutch Reformed, who teach that it's not really possible to know if one is really saved except by one's enduring and persevering faith, which one won't know until one's death bed.
My personal testimony is that I've seen people full of faith and full of the fruit of the Spirit fall away from the faith. If you believe in cheap grace, you'll say that person is going to heaven just the same. But such is clearly doctrinal error and has nothing to do with Biblical faith or salvation or grace.
Just adding two more cents.
It seems rather precarious…to hope not to make the wrong choice someday.
John 15:16 (ESV) You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide…
1 John 2:19 (ESV) They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.
Jude 1:24 (ESV) Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy.
God's power is able to keep the believer from falling away. It is up to Him, not us, to present us before His glorious presence. Our eternal security is a result of God keeping us, not us maintaining our own salvation.
Amen :-)
Christisking wrote:
"James 2:21,24-25
(21) Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?"
Abraham offered Isaac by faith as well. He heard God's command to do this first, then acted on faith that God knew what He was doing. Rarely would anyone atttempt to kill their first born unless they have faith in the one who told them to do so. But I understand the dilemma here with what James says about works. I wonder if James means justified in terms of being a child of God or justified in receiving his reward of 'all nations being blessed through him.' That's a half hearted opinion... because I'm not totally sure of all that myself. Blessings.
All of Romans 4 talks about Abraham justified by faith. This is why Jesus told the Pharisees that they were not children of Abraham but children of the devil. They would not receive the Messiah in faith as Abraham received the commands of the Father in faith. The Pharisees still wanted to earn their way to heaven and would just have the Messiah destroy all their enemies instead of die for their sins.
Here are scriptures mentioning Abraham and faith. Peace to you.
Romans 4:12
And he is also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.
Romans 4:13
It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.
Romans 4:16
Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.
Galatians 3:8
The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you."
Galatians 3:9
So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
Galatians 3:14
He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
I do believe that faith comes before works. But our works aren't for our own salvation but as obedient children to do the work of the Lord for His glory. I take Paul to mean in one of the scriptures that justification by faith allows us to let go of our own works for our own salvation... which allows us now to move forward in bearing fruit in the Spirit for the glory of God and not to boast in our own fleshly works as to be recognized in a more selfish, pretentious, manner.
This caught my eye.Christisking wrote:
...states that someone can live in continual willful sin...
Is this in contrast to continusl unwillful sin?
I don't get it.
[b]John 15:2[b]:3[b]:4
[b]Verse Two:
It can't mean that he isn't abiding in HIM.
It means that bearing fruit is a choice on our part to obediance.
If one abides in HIM but doesnot choose to bear fruit (works), then he is toast.
[b]Verse Four:
Therefore, there are two things which we must to on our part of this relationship with the Father through Christ (which is eternal life John 17:3); we must choose to have works (obey), and choose to remain in Him.
If we do not choose to have fruit (works) it is proof that you are not choosing to believe (have faith) in Him, therefore,. HE will "take you away" from the Vine.
If we do not choose to abide in Him, you can not have the good fruit which is eternal in value.
Logic
what does bearing fruit(works) mean in a believers life?
rdg
It means everything!rainydaygirl wrote:what does bearing fruit(works) mean in a believers life?
Works bring about [b]fruit
With out works, there will be no fruit.
In other words, a changed life, a new view on life, and a new motive for everything that you do.
If one does not choose to changed their life, they will not bear fruit.
If one does not choose to adopt God's view on life, they will not bear fruit.
If one does not choose to change their motive for everything that they do, they will not bear fruit.
In these new aspects of your life will become actions or works that give a testimony of Christ in you (which is the greatest fruit).
When you perform your salvation as you're suposed to, by obediance, your giving evidence of your faith.
By doing this, your allowing God to display Himself in you, both to desire and to be effective for the sake of His good desire (Philip 2:12-13).
Just as Abraham was justified by works when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar in obediance, faith was prooved to be fruitful by his works, and by works, his faith was made perfect (James 2:21-22).
Logic
thank you for clearing that up for me. From your other post I thought that you believed bearing fruit(works) was more about the externals of what a person does instead of it being a heart matter. I think i better understand you now.
rdg
It does involve "externals".
rainydaygirl wrote:
Logic
thank you for clearing that up for me. From your other post I thought that you believed bearing fruit(works) was more about the externals of what a person does instead of it being a heart matter. I think i better understand you now.rdg
If Abraham did not have an external work of offering Isaac, his son, upon the altar in obediance, his faith would not have been made perfect.
Of coarse, if our heart is not right, there will be no works/fruit, but without "externals", what good is our fruit of the heart?
In fact, if there was no "externals", it would prove the fruit of the heart to be false.
Faith is substancial evidence, evidence that one can taste, touch, see, hear, &/or smell (Heb 11:1); these are "externals".
Hebrews ch. 6 assures that if you lose your salvation you can't get it back but he assures the believers that their born again and their kind of fruit will not fall away as does john in his epistle.
Is this in contrast to continusl unwillful sin?
I don't get it.
Do you not understand the difference between willful and unwillful sin???
Patrick
www.jonahproject.org
Logic
Thank you for your response, I understand what you are saying.
rdg
Do you not understand the difference between willful and unwillful sin???Christisking wrote:Is this in contrast to continual unwillful sin?
I don't get it.
All sin is willful.
Whatever is not of faith (when willing and able to have faith) is sin. Romans 14:23
Knowingly (willfully) transgressing the law is sin. 1John 3:4
If one can not know the law, he can not transgress it ([color=990000]where no law is, there is no transgression[/color] [b]Rom 4:15b[b]Rom 5:13b
Knowing (willing and able) to do good and not doing it is sin. James 4:17
All unrighteousness is sin. 1John 5:17
One can not be unwillingly unrighteous.
If one is unwilling to be unrighteous, then all he needs to do is repent with faith. If he refuses that and still is unwilling to be unrighteous, he is lying.
However, when Paul is saying that the sin which he does that which he would not (Rom 7:16)
He is not saying that he is committing unwillful sin.
That is why he says, "it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwells in me" (Roman 7:17, 20
This "sin" which he is talking about is a concept of sin which is actually the unlawful desires [b]which are [u]in
One can not unwillingly give in to these unlawful desires; giving into these unlawful desires are always willful.
Here's the test:
1 John 2:3-5 "Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says' "I know Him", and does not keep His commandments is a liar (deceived) and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him."
I've also been made aware that the first words out of Jesus mouth to all seven churches in Revelation, other that His description of Himself are:
"I know your works."
He does not say. "I know your hearts."
I've been blessed by all the responses so far. Thank you :-D
Hi Logic,
Willful and unwillful sin is a common scriptural concept understood by many Christians
Heb 10:26-27 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the
truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, (27 ) But a certain fearful looking for of
judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heberews 10:26 clearly puts forth the concept of willful sin. The concept of willful sin is
easy – it is willful transgression of the law. For instance, it would be willful sin if someone was to know that looking with lust was adulatory at heart and to continue to
look at pornography. To say “I don’t care if looking at pornography is sin I am going to do it anyway.” This is willful sin.
Unwillful sin is sin that we do not commit willfully. For example, say next week God was to put His finger on an area of unknown pride in your life and convicts you of this pride – would that pride be sin this week before God shed light on it? Of course it would. We all have many areas in our life that fall short of the glory and perfection of God such as pride, lack of faith (stress, worry, ect.) covetousness, un-contentment, anger, inpatients, bitterness, and many other sins that God has yet to shine light on in our live as we all fall short of the glory of God.
1Jn 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
Another example of unwillful sin would be if you were to be inpatient and unkind to someone and then God convicted you of your impatient and unkind attitude and later that evening and you had to call and apologize. Have you ever had an out burst of anger or unkind or cutting words possible to your wife or children or someone you knew and had to apologize? This would also be unwillful sin. Yes, out burst of anger, unkind words and attitudes, impatient and such are all sins but are often not committed as willful transgression of the law. None the less, they are sin and still need to be repented of and reconciled with the offended party when we are convicted by the Holy Spirit. In fact just recently I was convicted by the Holy Spirit for the way I had treated 4 people three years ago. I repented and called up all of the people, apologized and asked for forgiveness. I most certainly did not willfully sin when I had treated these people poorly, in fact at the time I though what I was doing was right, none the less my actions were indeed sinfull and most certainly required repentance. I am sure most have had similar experience in some form or another – this is unwillful sin.
I hope this makes sense. Please let me know if I need to explain it better.
God bless,
Patrick
www.jonahproject.org
Where I differ with my Calvinist brothers is the belief that this is an automatic thing that will occur.
While I do not think the reformed would say it is an "automatic thing" (that sounds so cold and mechanical) I would agree that the reformed believe that Christ actually accomplished something in His death and resurrection. He did not secure the potential for salvation; He did, in fact, secure salvation (justification, sanctification, and glorification) for His people; all that the Father had given Him. It is finished.
Just like one man, King David, brought victory to the entire nation of Israel in defeating Goliath, so to, one man, Christ, brought victory to all His people. And it is through His victory that He GIVES to us, that we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.
In fact, salvation is not a thing that will occur, it HAS occurred. It is finished. The enemy has been crushed. Paul even says as much in his doxology in Romans 8:
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
If you are not allowed to go by genuine discernment of their fruits to tell if others are really saved, then one is incapable of discerning their own personal salvation by the discernment of one's own fruit.
While I personally desire the life of Christ to be formed in me and in my wife, kids, family, etc...I do not think the discernment of "fruit" in one's life should be the primary means of discerning one's salvation.
Remember an apple tree, though it is an apple tree, does not bear fruit in the winter. If you go by some of the orchards here in the Northeast in the winter, you may even think that most of the trees are dead. Outwardly they look just terrible, but the TRUTH is that inwardly there is life, and in their season they will bear fruit.
The Husbandman is taking good care of His trees.
why i believe a true born again christian can end up in hell.
If the apostle Pauls letters should be understood in the calvinistic way of interpretation, and paul believed in once saved always saved. Why would he write and warn, exhort and rebuke believers in sin or lukewarmness or living in wordiness knowing they where in no real danger anyway?
also the way some believe that for example the letter to the hebrews was written for the hebrews and not for us, then to me it would be very inconsistent to quote much of the assurance verses from the old testament like passages that refer to creating a new heart in people, since that was written for the Jews in the Babylonian captivity, or to refer to any part of scripture that do not apply to us directly, now i believe in the scripture to have a "dual" message, one for whom the author was writing to and for all believers throughout all ages.
and since all scripture are written for us it all apply to us, and the literal hundreds of verses warning us , exhorting us and plainly saying we are in danger if we live in sin can not be explained away if dealt with honestly.
do i believe if you sin once you will go to hell? no i dont, as much as i dont believe if you do one righteous act you are not righteous.
I believe scripture says God will come after us mightily to bring us back, but since all true love is from a choise, if i go buy a doll for my children with a string on its back and when i pull it it says "i love you" that is not true love, and if god "forces" us to be born again against our free choice that is not love, just as that dolls love is not real.
So if we continually chose to live in sin even tho God is calling us and working in us and around us to make the choice to repent and come back to him, if we then chose the world, its lust , and sin, i dont think he will bring us home.
Does that make God less sovereign? no it dont, it just show us the law of love is working.
I could write much more that i have not really havent come to grips with as of yet, but these are my main problems with the once saved always saved doctrine.
and i think this passage is the one that shows it beyond any doubt.
1 Corinthians 10:1-5 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.
and when reading this letter in once sitting to get the whole context of why Paul wrote this letter and to whom, its obvious, to me at least, and all verses in revelation alone is very heavy, so i think its very clear the possibility is there. But as i said i do not believe god will cast someone out into the darkness for sinning one time, as long as we have a longing to follow him and the will to be his child he is faithful and will finish what he started. We need never fear as long as we are willing to come to him, whenever we sin, stumble or fall, he will bring us back and put our feet on the rock, if we are willing, if we leave him and go to the world and sin.... he will not force us.
Then it would not have been love, and without love, it would make no sense God even to make all of creation and man.
Just my addition to this thread :-)
God bless you all
hmmhmm,
There are numerous warnings to individuals in churches against sinning and lukewarmness because there is an internal/external distinction within the church.
What I mean is this: it is possible to be a part of a church visibly and externally, but not a part of the church internally and invisibly (elect). We all know this - there are church members who are not saved. Paul writes to churches containing those people. The elect, as Spurgeon noted, do not have a stripe down their back. Even Jesus told us that the church would have wheat and tares (interestingly, he didn't speak of wheat morphing into tares, or of sheep morphing into goats). Therefore, the Apostles wrote to the churches as such. They issued such warnings because, A) the visible church is made of wheat and tares and B) God uses such warnings as a means of stirring up His people to holy living.
Therefore, the warnings are not at all inconsistent with the preservation of the saints by God.
The passage you quoted (1st Corinthians 10:1-5) is a warning to not rest in the visible ordinances of the church as a gurantee of salvation. In other words, do not rest in your baptism (Red Sea), and Lord's Supper (spiritual food and drink), because many Israelites partook of such ordinances and were found out to be unbelieving. They were goats.
I encourage you to seriously and prayerfully reckon with the following passages:
And I will make an [i]everlasting covenant[b]I will not turn away from them[b]that they shall not depart from me
We know that believers are part of this everlasting covenant, because of the following:
Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the [i]everlasting covenant
I'm curious to know how God can say in the book of Jeremiah that he will never turn from those whom he has an everlasting covenant with, and, not only that, they will never turn from him - yet, people talk about how true born again believers can end up going to hell.
I hope this is helpful!
With care in Christ,
Taylor
great verse in jeremiah.The scriptures also speak somewhere that whatever is not of the father will be rooted up. Also in the epistle of peter it says that we our born of an incorrupitible seed.
[i] all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ (1Co 10:4 NKJ)
I may be wrong, i have been several times in the past, but they drank from Christ, spiritually..... They had part in Christ...
yet god was not pleased with most of them and they died in the desert. To me it does not seem as they where unconverted church members.
And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me. (Jeremiah 32:40)
I agree god will never depart from a believer who wants to come to him, but as i said if this believer do not come to him but continues to walk away from God, I am not sure this person will be in heaven. I believe god never turns, but he has given us the option to turn from Him, He never left Israel in the desert, they left Him.
But even tho you may stumble and struggle with sin and fall every day of your life, even a losing battle, if you truly want God and seek him and forgiveness in brokenness of heart and in faith I believe God will make him persevere to the end because his heart was right.
and in the book of Jeremiah god says he will never leave us, Jesus said many such things also and i hope in those promises, but he is not going to force them upon me, just as he does not force his gift upon us, he does not force bible knowledge into my head, he does not force his presence into my life if i want tv and and other things more then him. but if i want to.... there is an infinite ocean available, all the heavenly riches of Christ, all the perseverance, all grace all mercy, all his presence. all this all of us can get, god is no respecter of persons, but all of us also can chose not to pray, not to read the word, sit home and watch tv rather then fellowship and go to church ect.
None of these things saves us, but if done in truth they will be as white and black in a christians life, and i have come to the conclusion so far in my walk, in the sum of scripture I believe the end can be hell for a born again christian, God wont force us to heaven.
But if we are willing he will aid us and even keep us from falling once scripture says, even from stumbling....
amazing, not just persevere, but not even stumble.
God is good, and faithful, so that is the reason for exhorting one another as long as it is called today, that we may not fall away, that is the reason to building each other up in our most holy faith. That we should be encouraged and never stop coming to him no matter how dark it is.
I once read through the new testament promises, i had a list, dont know how many verses, but i wouldent lie if i said hundred, i read all those verses in their context and to my amazement i found all had a condition attached to them. If that now is a good word to use, maybe there is a different one that suits better, but that is what i found, all promises of God comes with a condition, and i found salvation does to.
Faith and repentance.
And isent it amazing? we believe faith is a one time deal, i believed once on God and that once i was born again, that is true for all of us in past tense, at one time we did believe and where born again, but Joh 3:16 says....For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever [b]believeth
that word beliveth in the original greek is in a tense that does not exist in my language, dont know if tense is the right word? but you who know grammar i encourage you all to look it up, it meens to believe and continue to believe.....
its a continuing faith.... if one have true faith, and dies with no faith he dont have eternal life. perseverance is a good word, but falling away also is a good word, or two, its a balance in scripture, and i may be repeating myself but i see too persevere you must fulfill the condition by faith throughout your entire life.
anyway, i doubt many will agree with me, but hope you all have patience with me :-)
Gods grace and peace in abundance brother.
Taylor,
Thanks for your thoughtful response. Your post reminds me of the necessity of interpreting scripture within the context of the history of redemption. Many of us, including myself, simply proof-text. Without a clear understanding of the Gospel as interpreted within the context of the history of redemption, we really cannot understand the scriptures.
We must have our minds renewed, not by a scripture here and a passage there, but by the Word of God; what does the bible say...as a whole?
What is the Gospel? What is the difference between the law and the Gospel? What is the purpose of the law? What is the purpose of the Gospel? Is there law and Gospel in both testaments? How do we rightly divide the Word/
These are the things that we must ask if we are to properly understand the scriptures.
Quote: And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me. (Jeremiah 32:40)I agree god will never depart from a believer who wants to come to him, but as i said if this believer do not come to him but continues to walk away from God, I am not sure this person will be in heaven. I believe god never turns, but he has given us the option to turn from Him, He never left Israel in the desert, they left Him.
But, don't you see in this passage from Jeremiah, the person you described must have never been a true believer? The passage clearly states that someone who is a part of the everlasting covenant can [b]never
Oh Lord, if you force me to stay close to you, keep forcing!
Mahoney,
Thank for you for the encouragement.
With care in Christ,
Taylor
Well in 1 John it says whoever is born of God does not commit sin......
does that meen a truly saved person never sins?
I dont believe that, but comparing your interpretation of the verse in Jeremiah i could make the same interpretations of other verses and it dont make sense. I believe the verse in Jeremiah should be interpreted in the same way as we interpret the verse in 1 John.
i dont have all the answers, i see a lot of holes and much inconsistency with the sum of all scriptures to say one person who is saved can never fall away completely.
i believe in the greek you can interpret i john as saying he who continues in sin, i have the amplified new testament so i will tell you later.
Hmmhmm,
So is the phrase: "they shall not depart from me" true or false?
With care in Christ,
Taylor
TaylorOtwell wrote:
Hmmhmm,So is the phrase: "they shall not depart from me" true or false?
With care in Christ,
Taylor
Its true brother, its true,, they will never depart as long as they have the fear of God in their hearts, the day they dont have that i am not so sure.
He never left Israel in the desert, they left Him.
I agree with you, Israel turned away from God. For most of their history they rejected Him even though He chose them, fed them, carried them and protected them from enemies. In fact, many times they turned away from Him and served other gods. And many times they were judged for their disobedience.
But then that begs the question:
Is natural Israel, the nation of Israel as a whole, synonymous with the Church; the body of Christ made up of both Jew and Gentile. I submit that it is not.
According to the prophecy in Jerimiah 32:40 there was and there is a people whom God will never forsake and who will never forsake their God. And this is possible because of the perfect obedience, the death, and the resurection of Jesus Christ.
It is just not good news unless this is true. It's just law and no different than any other religion out there.
--------------------------------
Faith and repentance.
Faith and repentance. Necessary characteristics in a christian. But what is faith? Who has faith?
Amazingly, if you look at the people in the Gospels whom Jesus said had faith, they were people who could do nothing for themselves. They were blind, deaf, dead, leprous, diseased, crippled. They were weak.
And amazingly, if you look at the people in the Gospels whom Jesus criticized for not having faith, it's those who are strong in themselves. They did not really see their need for Him.
So is faith something that we muster up? Is it our part in salvation? Our work? Or is it a gift that God gives to those who have been crushed by the law and by the curse, and who know that they need a savior?
Its true brother, its true,, they will never depart as long as they have the fear of God in their hearts, the day they dont have that i am not so sure.
Alright, but we know from this passage that it is God who puts the fear of Himself in their hearts. And, in Ezekiel 36:26-27 we see that God actually gives them a new heart with His laws written upon it. So, we would have to remove that new heart and put our old one back in I guess?
Rejoice in the work God has done in you. Rest in His faithfulness to keep you and preserve you. It will motivate you to new passion for holiness and purity.
With care in Christ,
Taylor
So is faith something that we muster up? Is it our part in salvation? Our work? Or is it a gift that God gives to those who have been crushed by the law and by the curse, and who know that they need a savior?
well NT is clear, or it is to me , faith is a gift, but a gift can be well taken care of and cherished or neglected and mistreated.
All of salvation is of the Lord, or so I believe, but being saved and being freed is not forcing, if someone lets you out of prison from the outside, that you could never do yourself, yet once on the outside you may return to your cell by going back to a life of crime. The good part is God never closes the door without the possibility to open it again. so if we ask him to open it he will, but i think we have the choise to return if we desire it more then him who set us free.
Hmmhmm,
In Ezekiel 36:26-27 it states that God will [b]cause
With care in Christ,
Taylor
TaylorOtwell wrote:
Alright, but we know from this passage that it is God who puts the fear of Himself in their hearts. And, in Ezekiel 36:26-27 we see that God actually gives them a new heart with His laws written upon it. So, we would have to remove that new heart and put our old one back in I guess?With care in Christ,
Taylor
I guess that is a way to put it,
[i]...you have put off the old man with his deeds... (Col 3:9 NKJ)
...put on the new man.. (Col 3:10 NKJ)
If we want it bad enough i think we can put the old man back on....
In Ezekiel 36:26-27 it states that God will cause those He regenerates to walk in His statutes. That sounds pretty forceful to me. With care in Christ, Taylor
It does brother, but i am not so sure, can we define what "walk in His statues" meen and maybe we can come into agreement :-) does it meen God causes the true believer never to walk outside the statues?
Well, whatever Ezekiel 36:26-27 means, I'm pretty sure it doesn't mean "I'll let my sheep transform into goats and perish in Hell."
It means God causes His people to walk in His statutes. He doesn't sit back and cheer them on, He causes them to walk in His ways.
With care in Christ,
Taylor
is it possible to walk outside of His statues? if god is causing us to walk in them?
Sure it is, but that isn't the discussion. The point is, if God states His people will not depart from Him, it means they will not depart from Him.
With care in Christ,
Taylor
to me not to walk in the statues is to depart from him, and if he is causing us against any choice from us we would never ever even once be outside of his statues for one moment. and if we where, then his power to cause us is very little.
These scriptures seem pretty clear -
[i]Romans 11:20-22 - But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
2 Peter 2:20-22 - If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.
God bless,
Patrick
www.jonahproject.org
Mahoney,
You said:
"Taylor,
Thanks for your thoughtful response. Your post reminds me of the necessity of interpreting scripture within the context of the history of redemption. Many of us, including myself, simply proof-text. Without a clear understanding of the Gospel as interpreted within the context of the history of redemption, we really cannot understand the scriptures.
We must have our minds renewed, not by a scripture here and a passage there, but by the Word of God; what does the bible say...as a whole?"
With the above in mind I recommend the following to the users of this forum.
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=240594213
Brief Sermon Overview:
If you have already made up your mind on this important question of eternal security, you might do well to reconsider your position in light of the compelling insights this message presents on this issue so vital to us all. Dr. Stewart explores three of the unchanging divine realities upon which this question turns. He shares some fresh Biblical insights into the eternal dimension of God's redemptive plan, some innovative insights into the ancient concept of sacred blood covenants which shed amazing light on the New Covenant Jesus has inaugurated, and some reassuring insights into the unchanging and eternal character of God. Every Christian should hear this message! It will cause your heart to rejoice in God's goodness and faithfulness to you, His child. Listen and be blessed!
Thanks repentcanada(Ricky Earle)for this thread.
I agree with you Ricky that, "It's a simple thought, but it has radical implications."
Listen to the message at the above link.
And when you're through listening to that message also listen to these:
Hi,
I've been studying 1 John in sunday school, and as we know, one of the purposes of John writing this epistle was to provide early believers of several different confirmations of salvation, or lack thereof. I came across this particular verse concerning salvation (it's hard to quote just one, as this entire book is rife with "if this- then that" distinctions:
[b]"whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him" 1 Jn 3:6
Unless you're Charles Finney, it's obvious that John is referring to constant, willful, unrepentant sin, a lifestyle as opposed to individual occurances. The next part of the verse is what I find difficult to misinterpret:
[b]"...whoever sinneth hath not seen him, nor known him."
If your lifestyle is one of constant unrepentant sin, then you have no assurance that you have [i]ever
Also, this one is off track, but- if baptism is the model that we as individuals shold follow after, then according to the logic of "conditional security" it would be possible for one to be baptized dozens, if not hundreds of times in their lifetime, if they were to be obedient to the commands of baptism for the new believer. This logical conclusion just doesn't seem to accurately reflect the christian life. Trust me, i attend a church that is Wesleyian/Arminian, and mine is definately not the prevailing view, I also have very many close brothers and sisters in Christ there, and love them all as much as I do anyone that holds a different opinion on this issue.
Grace and peace, in love,
Joe
What would be willful sin? Who hasn't lusted, thought unkind of a brother or sister? Who has known what do and has not done it? The list can be long here. I think there is a different for the brother or sister who struggles in areas that keep them in bondage.
[url=http://victoryoversin.com/sinenough.htm]victory over sin
[url=http://victoryoversin.com/stoptrying.htm]Stop trying to be good
Hey Reformer,
I suppose that what I was referring to in my post was the idea of unrepentant sin, a true believer hates his sin and makes war against it, not continues in it with relish, as an unbeliever would. That is the distinction, the lifestyle of indulging in sin as opposed to falling into sin.
What I find interesting in the verse I listed is that is unequivically states that if one lives such a lifestyle, they have never known God, not "known Him and 'fallen away'"
That is the distinction, the lifestyle of indulging in sin as opposed to falling into sin.
How do we know that we have "fallen " into sin, verses that it is "willful"; does not the two go hand in hand? What I mean is our intention in the beginning is not to give in, to walk the narrow path, but as temptation creeps in, we find that we are fighting the temptation and then at some moment, we may give in to that temptation, so that would be willful act?
Unless you're Charles Finney, it's obvious that John is referring to constant, willful, unrepentant sin, a lifestyle as opposed to individual occurances. The next part of the verse is what I find difficult to misinterpret
Why? What did actually Finney teach about believer's security or about 1Jn3:6.
Thanks for the question, here is a couple quotes from a Finney sermon titled [b]Abiding in Christ and Not Sinning
[i][b]It is generally admitted that this text means so much as this--Those who abide in Christ do not sin habitually;--although there are some who would not say this, for they hold that one may be in Christ and yet live a long time in constant sinning. But in my view this text must mean more than that men do not sin habitually. If John had meant only this, why did he not say this?[i][b]Hence when we sin, we are no longer in Christ, but out of Christ. This is implied in the text, and it equally follows from the very nature of being in him.
I'll see what else I can find about Finneys' views on conditional security.
Joe
Hello, I understand if one will find himself uncomfortable with the quotes you have posted. The article from which they were taken lacks elaboration and probably was not intended for the purposes of apologetics.
However, Finney did not mean 'sinless perfection', nor Christians could lose their salvation. He was clear on that in his other theological materials.
He was just calling for a higher morality than the phrase 'Christian do not habitually sin' which the meaning probably became so loose in his time, and with that saying became a much abused or perverted alibi by many professing Christians.
"...Hence when we sin, we are no longer in Christ, but out of Christ..." True indeed, no one can really say that he is abiding in Christ at the moment he is sinning, we are in the flesh while we sin.
Do many of us here know that Finney believe in 'The doctrine of the Perseverance of the saints' and that real Christians will never lose their salvation.
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