Vacation Bible School Disruptions

I have a problem and am asking for helpful insights on how to deal with it.

Here is the situation: I am teaching a class of 14 12+ year old girls. All but two of them are black and come from single parent homes (I think). They are so irreverent, disrespectful. This evening I passed the basket and collected their cell phones which helped some - no texting, and no calling between students in another class.

Most of these students come from homes where they are yelled at all the time. Loud, rough yelling. So maybe they are conditioned to not listen until the voice of authority reaches a certain decibel?

Tonight I had a girl who had a fit of laughing that was beyond reason. I know laughter and love to laugh, but this was so excessive I wonder whether it was demonic? (Maybe Todd Bentley could have appreciated it??)

Today I prayed that God would keep the girls at home who are disruptive and in answer I had more then ever before!

I am hoping there would be some who grew up in the culture I just described who can give me some helpful suggestions...and if nothing else pray that the enemy would be defeated. Or, perhaps there are others who have dealt with similar situations who can give helpful advice.

To suggest I am weary is a bit of an understatement...

ginnyrose

My advice would be to pray thoroughly for the convicting power of the Holy Spirit to accompany God's preached word and break from whatever formalities may have been instituted for the sake of the VBS and simply read the gospel from God's word as preached by John the Baptist, Jesus, and the Apostle Paul.

The Gospel and God's Word: the power of God unto salvation.

I will be praying for you. I wish I had some words of wisdom to offer but I don't. All I can tell you is that I was exactly like those girls you described. When I was a teenager I went with one of my friends from school to a girls teen youth sleep over and beach party(her mother made her go). We did not want to be there that weekend and because of that we behaved really bad, we were disruptive and disrespectful. We wanted to prove to all the goody two shoes in the youth group that we were cool and that we were above their stupid little group. I am sorry to say that I was really a brat to the lady who was in charge and that I am sure I and my friends made her time that weekend really awful. I guess my point in sharing this with you is that even if this week ends and you don't see any fruit in these young girls lives now, you never know that some day, the seeds that you are planting God may use to get a hold of one of these young ladies heart.

rdg

Thank-you,rdg. You said what I needed to hear.

There is one exercise that seems to have a calming effect: this is when we do the exercises in the workbook. They do not have a textbook, but depend on the teacher to teach it. After sharing the lesson, we go to the workbook. They think it is fun to check the answers in the back so when I read the questions, they will verbally share the answers. They are writing most of the time. They are occupied, doing something - may be there is a clue here?

Another poster suggested reading the Word - interesting thought except that I am the only one with a Bible...

Any more suggestions?

ginnyrose

I am pretty sure that the laughter is demonic. But you have no authority over any demon if you are making fun over any other christians (doesn't matter if they are deceived or not). If you want authority over the devil you cannot be critical, judgemental - even if it's todd (I am not defending him, he has to stand before god alone, and we have to stand before god alone.)

Hi Ginny,
my heart goes out to you. I am also a white guy teaching mostly black 12-14 year old boys and girls Sunday school. Some follow with a bit of interest others rather would do something else. They are all very quite, and I do most of the talking. Last time I shared my frustration with a friend. I taught them last week and had some of the most amazing responses, and some of it was inspired, no doubt. I share this with my friend who is on the same rota with me and he told me that he had prayed for me in particular.

I saw NOTMEs comment and I disagree with them. It is right that these mothers are unbelievers and you may have no mandate to eductate them in the way of the Lord, but we have a mandate to make the best of every opportunity to preach the gospel.

Colossians 4:5
Be wise in the way you act toward outsiders; make the most of every opportunity...

Ephesians 5:15-16
15Be very careful, then, how you live—not as unwise but as wise, 16making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil.

Since you are the only one with a bible, may be you print the scriptures out for each student.

You could go to [url=http://www.biblegateway.com/]Bible Gateway.com[/url] Then copy and paste into notepad or other word prossessing software. Then each girl could take the scriptures home with them.

Firstly the best thing to do is pray!
I am no expert myself but my wife works with very similar young people, she often says that shouting is wasted on them and that they are so used harsh and unloving environments at home that really nothing seems to shock them.
But... the one thing that they are not so used to at home is compassion and love. She has found that it can be amazing how they respond when offered a hand of friendship!

Dear ginnyrose,
I was thinking of you and your girls lastnight before I even had a chance to read your post. I can certainly understand why.

Just a couple of things... A friend of mine who was a pastors wife on a reservation and taught the children there said sometimes it would get to such a point that she would say, "OK, line up!" and then she would annoint each one and pray for them, she said it usually always calmed them down.... Now, not that you should do that.. but I think that sometimes young people who come from troubled backgrounds are looking for some kind of special attention, whether from you or from each other. (Such as RDG mentioned as well)

I wonder, why are they there? Are they truly being "forced" or are they just looking for some way to burn up a few hours? Don't forget that conviction can sometimes make people cantankerous! (Been there, seen it, done it!)

For teachers, espiecally of this age group, I don't think we realize just how absolutely important our representation can be. Even if it never seems that way. Most young girls are still looking for someone to "accept" them, to "love" them, although their idea of what "love" is, is usually very misconstrued. I'm not sure what the content of the "lessons" are, but at that age so many ask, what does that have to do with me? My life is not even close to what you have a clue about, if I'm miserable, confused, angry, why not make every one else feel as stirred up as I feel on the inside. (Let's test the lady to see if she means what she says...) on and on.

Just don't forget that the most irreverant person can also become the most intense for the Kingdom once they are "arrested" by the Holy Spirit.

I just pray that the Holy Spirit would make whatever words you say become arrows in these girls hearts, regardless of their outward candor! and that every word would have it's aim, that it would be relevant, and that not one would fall to the ground. Lord! make it as serious as a heart attack word to their souls! and surround the entire group with Him who will do battle on their behalf against every unseen and manifest enemy!

Your in my prayers right now, Sis.
Lori

5. Approach the bible as a story. Everyone loves a good story.

The Bible is more than just a story - it is TRUTH. We should not water down the very words of God to make them more entertaining to the World.

It is important, that even though one may have good intentions and a sincere heart to see the souls of men saved, you can still labor in vain because the work is not what God has called you to do.

I don't question the sincerity and desire that ginnyrose, or even you Mahoney, have to do the Lord's work and share the gospel with many. I do however question the means in which you are doing them.

I agree with what NotMe has said. God may save children through VBS, but it won't be because of VBS, it will be in spite of it. I myself was saved in spite of VBS and youth ministry.

Notme hit the nail on the head when he talked about the responsibility of children learning the gospel falls on the parent. I would ask Ginnyrose, what type of outreach has the church dones to these parents? It is imperative that the parents be saved and then center their homes around Christ.

It is right that you want to see these girls saved, but it is primarily the parents' responsibility to train their children in the fear and admonishion of the Lord. I would encourage you to reach out the parents of these young women. Don't waste an opportunity to reach the souls of those who have children so that the entire family might be saved.

Voddie Baucham would be a great resource regarding these issues. Feel free to contact me via pm if you'd like to explore these issues a little deeper.

Please keep in mind, this is coming from the guy who was going to be a youth pastor. God opened my eyes to the unbiblical structure of the "church" in America. It was not an easy pill to swallow, but we must examine our own pride, when we realize that what we felt was honoring God contradicts his Word.

I will keep you in my prayers.

Personally, I am not looking for revival, just to be faithfult to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

I just thought I had to add that revival is the purpose of this website. If we are faithful to the Gospel of Christ, then revival will spring forth!

Based on the logic of my statement, if revival is not springing forth, then perhaps that means we are not being faithful to the Gospel of Jesus Christ...

just some ideas,
soemtimes the teacher does to much of the talking..
1. so get the kids to interact with each other,
for example
The teacher says something ,
and then the teacher tells the students in your own words explain what i just said..
try to get kids teaching kids.. and you make sure there doing it..
2.group work
3. have a routine down. and jump from one exercise to other..7-8 min long
anyway hope that helps.. remember , it you can get the kids to
talk, write, listen, visualize during your 30-45 min. lesson.. your teaching will stay with them..

love
andy

QUOTE from LoveGodsWay2:
\tYou could go to Bible Gateway.com Then copy and paste into notepad or other word processing software. Then each girl could take the scriptures home with them.
\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\tREPLY: Believe it or not but this idea came to me this morning. Thanks for the suggestion.

QUOTE from Aussiedler:
\tif you are making fun over any other Christians (doesn't matter if they are deceived or not). If you\twant authority over the devil you cannot be critical, judgmental - even if it's Todd

\tReply: Brother, the reason I compared this laughter to Todd Bentley is that this laughter I witnessed last night reminded me much of the laughter that is or was on You Tube (recorded in connection with the Lakeland Revival)that is called ‘holy laughter’. Until I saw this video I had never seen ‘holy laughter’…lots of laughter otherwise but not this kind. It is very strange, eerie.

QUOTE from Limey153:
\t
\tmy wife works with very similar young people, she often says that shouting is wasted on them and that they are so used harsh and unloving environments at home that really nothing seems to shock \tthem.

\tREPLY: I would agree. Would you also agree that these children may be filled with so much anger - hence the disruptive spirit/actions? This thought came to me this morning. Moms or mamaw \tyells at them constantly and there is no male father figure there to provide the child with balance,\tlove and leadership.

QUOTE from Mahoney:
\tThe advantage that I have is that I am able to create a relationship with them and become like a parent too them.
\t
\tHere are just some helpful hints that I have learned through experience and through other teachers:

\t1. Set behavioral expectations. These kids need to know what is expected of them while they are in the classroom.

\t2. I am assuming they do not know you, and being a mature white woman, you can be sure that they do not respect you...settle it in your mind and then move on...I know what this is like because I am a balding, very white, Irish-American, and I have had kids literally laugh in my face when they first meet me.

\t3. Get their attention off of you. Ask them what they believe about the bible, about God, about Jesus. In any classroom, the goal is to engage the students, and the best way to do that is to get them talking about themselves.

\t4. If they say some correct things concerning the bible then affirm them. If they are incorrect, then show them the truth in the Word. Use their responses to direct the class.

\t5. Approach the bible as a story. Everyone loves a good story.

\t6. Be passionate. Talk about what you are most passionate. They will listen.

\t7. I do not know if you would be willing, but it might help to find some QUALITY (full of content) Christian music (rap, r&b) that they might listen to as an ice breaker.

\t8. Remember, they are not the enemy (demonic or otherwise) they are kid that probably know little or no discipline. Show them that you care, maybe give them a gift in the beginning of class (something that they would be interested in)

\tREPLY: God bless you brother. I almost envy you the opportunity to be able to provide this kind of leadership to these children. And you are so right about them not knowing what love is about.

\tYour suggestion of teaching the Bible as a story resonates well with me. I was a child (once) and I well remember the impact these Bible stories had on me and still do. In a sense I never did grow up: I still love a good story, even a Bible Story. Hey, these were flesh and blood people like us who God loved and cared for them by providing them with love, sustenance, chastisement,judgment. King David says how he loves to meditate on God’s testimonies. The testimonies he is referring to are the stories of God dealing with his people! Too many times God is portrayed as an old man with long flowing hair carrying a big stick. This is unfortunate but God worked to remedy this: he sent Jesus who was clothed in flesh and blood like we. He got tired, weary, disgusted with religious leaders, political leaders (“that fox..” - Herod); had compassion on the weak, the children, the widows, the sick, you name it.

\tMichael, I can tell you love these children. God bless you

QUESTION: why do they come?
\tThey are not forced to come. They want to come so that must mean we must be doing something right, perhaps? We love them. We see them in the gutter perpetuating the sins of past generations. The black culture is very religious but so dreadfully short on holiness, purity. I would love to ask these girls to go home and ask their mom if my name sounds familiar to them but I dare not do that. The probability is they may have been a client of mine years ago at the CPC where I volunteered. And who knows? Maybe some of these girls are ‘my babies!’

\tYears ago our church operated VBS in a community in the eastern part of our county. It was a rural area and they came by the hundreds, so many they were forced to have at least two secessions every summer to accommodate these children. It stopped when the black churches saw how they were falling short on teaching and started to have their own VBS. Anyhow, years later these now grown adults recall with fondness the blessings they received from attending these Bible Schools. \tFor a time there was church for these young people. (It has since disbanded.) The testimony from \tthe public school teachers was that they could always tell which children had attended these VBS and Sunday Schools!

To the rest who cared enough to reply to my questions, Thank-you…you encouraged me. And continue to pray for all of us and in particular the children - especially the fatherless ones.

ginnyrose

what type of outreach has the church done to these parents? It is imperative that the parents be saved and then center their homes around Christ.

I appreciate your concern, fuehrerbe21. There is a very strong resistance in the black community to any white church reaching out to the adults. It seems as though the devil has them in such severe bondage of blindness, religion and the government makes their stay in the pig pen comfortable, hence there is little or no motivation to change. We know some Christian Blacks in the city who get frustrated with their own people as well. The area we are working in is rural, the town's is falling down on its heels - looks like a third world country town - really! It is poor because of life choices made by its citizens.

Where are the men? At least a third of them are in prison, have been in prison or are out on parole. In prison or not, they are not with the mothers of their children; they feel no responsibility to the mothers. The home is totally broken down. It is terrible, worse then bad....

Maybe I should add something else here. Ten years ago when I worked with the US Census Bureau, I did a lot of work on the field. In the interviewing process we were required to ask "who pays the bills in this home". We were told to NOT ask who is the head of this home. Too sexist. Anyhow, I decided to do it anyways just to see what the results will be. I did and the response was ALWAYS the same and since it was I reverted to doing as instructed by the leaders. What did the the women say when asked who is the head of this home? "I AM!!!" This was said even with the male present! Now, does this tell you something?

ginnyrose

Sister, the family has been utterly destroyed in the United States. It is vital that we, as believers, structure ourselves and our families around God's word.

The beautiful thing I love about the family is the picture it draws up in my mind of how Christ's church operates! Have you ever considered how the husband is to his wife as Christ is the church? I mean, we are the bride of Christ! How awesome is that!?

There is an epidemic in the land of dead beat fathers. Men, no matter what race, need to step up to the plate and fulfill their God given role as men.

If you look at the decline of "morality" in our country, you'll notice that as the family unit has been broken apart (homosexual marriage, feminism, disobedient children) at the same rate as the social decline.

If you study what scripture says about the qualifications of church leadership, you'll realize a few things. 1.) Many who are "leaders" are unqualified. I heard someone comment once about how 50% of seminary graduates are unqualified for church leadership because they are divorced. 2.) The lack of Biblical church leadership has created false doctrine and bad theology. 3.) As the family has broken apart, so has the church. 4.) The factory for church leadership is the home. A man must first lead his family according to what scripture requires before he can lead the church!

If we would simply come back to biblical family structures and center ourselves on God's word, we might see many saved. The world will continue to attack the family because it is part of God's design (and of course, it is in our fallen nature to attack anything that is from God).

I'm not trying to preach, and I know my thoughts are very scattered, but I wanted to encourage you sister look at what God's word says about the family and consider what the impact of the family has on the church. Wouldn't it be wonderful if men would labor to not only provide for their families, but to also labor to ensure their wives and children are saved? How strong would the church be if all the men in leadership were qualified?! How wonderful would it be if we would raise up a new generation of believers who might multiply the next generation into a generation of believers?

Our God is a mulit-generational God. I urge you sister to reach out to the mothers of these young women, regardless of their resistence. The only thing they need in this world is Jesus. Keep in mind, they will resist you because they hate God.

Ginnyrose,

Some will not agree with me but maybe I can offer a few words. (I'm was a youth pastor in MS for about 10 years before recently becoming a senior pastor.)

I understand your frustation more than you know. Understand this ... if you are being led by God then God will bless this week. God is also using this week to teach you even as he is using you to teach them. So if you want to teach you must first be teachable.

Here are a few things you might want to consider.

Don't be afraid to throw away the planned lesson and just teach the biblical truths of the lesson. Depending upon the students, the planned activites can actually cause more disrutions than they should. Since these students are probalby not familiar with the bible they are probably not too familiar with the bible "stories" either. So baciscally God's using you to lay some basic foundations here that can be built upon later on.

Enlist some other adults to serve as your assistants. Let them handle the minor problems. Sometimes just the presence of other adults will have a calming effect. Don't be afraid to call a student out .... most folks don't like being embarrased and while it might seem cruel it genearlly keeps others from having to be called out.

Lovingly but firmly give them a few ground rules about what you expect before hand. But know God's word WILL accomplish what it is supposed to accomplish even in the middle of many distractions. I've seen it happen time and time again.

I used to have students come into the services high on drugs. (Most of them came from broken homes, serval of them had never laid eyes upon their fathers. Trying to tell them about God being a loving father needed much prayer and spirit lead direction.) But God began to change them, not all of them, but some of them have been forever changed by the word of God. Many of them are sold out and on fire for God now. One of them is actually serving as a summer missionary even as I'm typing this.

It is important for the students know you love them, but you will not tolerate intentional disruptions. I've found students don't mind discipline as much if they know the person really cares about them.

I hope this encourages you. Remember what you do for Christ isn't in vain.

shadyg,

Your post is [i]so [/i] interesting, or maybe inspiring - am not sure which, but will let you decide...

You wrote:

Don't be afraid to throw away the planned lesson and just teach the biblical truths of the lesson.

I sense that tonight, being our last night, I will have to do this completely although I did this a lot all week. We were urged to teach the gospel all week long. Now tonight it seems I am to get downright personal and practical with them and discard the book. What did we learn this week? That all have sinned are in need of a Savior. Do you understand this message? One of the girls declared that we -our people- are naturally good. I told her we are all bad and that we need a Savior to change/redeem us.

Actually, I do not know exactly how this will go tonight. I have an idea where I want to go, but it is the Holy Spirit that will have to do the leading - all I can do is follow. Results? I do care about me being obedient but I do care much about these girls: they are doomed to hell unless there is repentance. Simple as that.

Rules for behaviors - thanks for the encouragement....you and a few others who took time to share.

Just pray that the enemy will be defeated.

ginnyrose

Remember what you do for Christ isn't in vain.

In humility, I submit the following for your consideration

Ephesians 6:4 Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord.

I don't think anyone here would disagree that it is the parent's (namely the father's) responsibility to train their children. But, consider this:

Matthew 15: 4For God commanded, 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.' 5But you say, 'If anyone tells his father or his mother, "What you would have gained from me is given to God," 6he need not honor his father.' So for the sake of your tradition you have made void the word of God. You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said:
8 "'This people honors me with their lips,
but their heart is far from me;
9in vain do they worship me,
teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'"

We have done what the Pharisees did; pervert God's word to accomodate our own desires. Even further, consider this verse:

Leviticus 26:20 "And your strength shall be spent in vain, for your land shall not yield its increase, and the trees of the land shall not yield their fruit."

In context, this verse is talking about the result of disobedience to God's commandments. Now consider:

1 Timothy 4:16 "Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers."

2 Timothy 4:3 "For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."

Youth ministries and most para-church organizations, while they have good intentions, are not biblical. Instead, we pursue them as if they were, but we are only doing what Paul was saying to Timothy, pursuing that which suits our own desires.

I would submit to you that it is possible to labor for Christ in vain. If it is a clear violation of his commandments in scripture. As already has been stated, these children are not orphans, they do have parents. While their fathers may not be present, it is still the responsibility of the mothers who God has placed over them.

The church should be striving to save these mothers, and if possible the fathers of these children. If the homes can be rebuilt and modeled after biblical principles, then the children can be trained in the home, by the parents.

It is important that you show them love, but there is no love like the love they should recieve from their parents. Most youth ministries and churches who support youth ministries try to bring the children in so they might reach the parents, but it should be the other way around! God has placed the parent over the child, not the child over the parent!

I urge all who are reading this to consider these things. As I've mentioned, Voddie Baucham is a great resource, as well as Paul Washer. I am always avilable to chat over PM or email.

Again, I submit this in humility. I am not questioning the good intentions of any who are involved with or ever have been involved with youth minsitries and para church organizations. But, we should strive after what is Biblical and pleasing to God, not our own desires. The family and how it relates to the church is a burden God has placed on my heart.

I am a bit bewildered about all the advices here. I mean, this is sermonindex, the site with all the sermons, where people meet, that love the lord...

But most of the advices are kinda natural advices, a nonbeliever would give probably the same advice...Natural advices are sometimes helpful, but they only heal symptoms, never the root.

than we have another stream of advices, who are more like "if they don't want the gospel, they are not worthy..." Well they are probably not worthy, but Jesus deserves them nasty kids too, as Paris Reidhead would say it.

and we have the "complainers", who are saying: the world is so bad, the families are so bad, society is so evil, etc. This is bad, because if we are focusing on this side, we are in fact admiring the power of the devil, we give him and his works that he is doing in this world way to much attention. I would rather say with Blumhardt: We have seen what the Devil could do, now we will see what God can do!

In all of this there is some truth, but that does not help you. I will try to give you some practical advice.

First of all, you have to love those nasty kids. If you are not loving them, every preaching is vain. Love them with the love of god, the agape love that can even love the enemies. Faith works through love. If you realize you don't love them, repent. Don't expect them to love you back. They won't.

Be humble - even before the kids. God gives grace to the humble. If you yell at them or treat them wrong, if you speak to the kids with hardness in your hard - repent before god and confess it before the kids.

And the last advice: The Man is the message. If the vessel is dirty, than everything that comes through the vessel will also be dirty. If there is some attitude in your heart, that is carnal, it doesn't matter what you preach, your words will be polluted. That's why i said you have to repent because of that critical remark. Doesn't matter what experiences you had or what you see on tv (most of the holy laughter is not holy, but that does not give us the right to critize and judge). Anyone you judge, you have no ministry for. The Demons know that. You will have absolutely no power over demons, if you are critical or judgemental.

Jesus knew from the beginning, that Judas was evil, but he did not tell anyone. He did not sent judas away. He treated him like every other disciple, although his heart was filled with satan. This is love. This is Jesus.

God's appointed purpose for the family is ignored. Because modern society has become a mixture of individuals, family and kin have lost their designated meaning. This may have happened in the world, but this should not be so in the church. Unfortunately churches are to blame, because they should be the salt and light of the world, but precisely because they have not been salt and light, and have not learned and kept and feared the Lord's commandments, society as a whole has not been convicted of sin and sees the broken family as something normal.

blaming the church doesn't help our sister. of course this is the fault of the church, that what we call "church" has missed god not only in this aspect. I think our sister already knows, that our society and our church is probably not the way gods wants them to be. So there is no need in repeating this song.

Does "loving those nasty kids" mean she is going to break the Lord's commandments in order to show them how much she 'loves' them? Does love lead you to people God hasn't sent you to? Do you think such kind of love could help?

Loving them means exactly what it says: Loving them. I am not sure what concept of love you have, since you connect loving other people with breaking gods commandment. that is quite strange. The bible tells us to love our enemies. Love is the fulfillment of the law.

We don't know, If our sister is sent to the kids or not. She is responsible for her calling. if she shouldn't preach to those kids, then every advice would not work of course. but we are not the "christian police", looking if everyone is doing the right thing.

Hi everyone,

Maybe a distinction could be made here between [b]responsibility[/b] and [u]opportunity[/u]?

It would be one thing to say we have an obligation to go into the homes of those that do not believe in the Lord Jesus and teach their chilren.

But that isn't the same as them sending their children to those that do believe in Him for instruction.

The disciples were told to go and make disciples of all peoples(non-Jews, Mat 28:19-20).

In Mark chapter 6 it says that people were coming out of cities all over to the Lord Jesus, and when He saw them he had compassion on them, and began to teach them(Mark 6:33-34). And in Mark chapter 10, young children were brought unto the Lord(Mark 10:13-14).

I remember hearing or reading that D.L. Moody was involved in teaching children or began that way?

Also, from what I have read, Gospel for Asia has a very significant ministry among the children of the Dalits? I think it is called [i]Bridge of Hope[/i]?

I remember, it was maybe a few months ago, I was walking to the congregation that I was attending for sunday Service and on the way this verse came into my mind "suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not".

As soon as I entered the building, one of the women that teaches the very young children in the Sunday School was talking to me and asked me if I would be willing to teach her class for a couple weeks while she was on vacation.

Ginny, if God has given you the opportunity to teach these children about Him, may God give you all grace and help to do it.

No one has yet pointed out an example in the Scriptures of God's people having a responsibility to teach His Word to unbelievers'/Gentile children (who have living parents). What dignity do you see in usurping the role of a parent, even though the parent(s) may have failed as such miserably? Moreover, I don't see any apostle or prophet preaching God's word to children.

[i]And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and his disciples rebuked those that brought them. But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein. And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them.[/i] Mar 10:13-16

[i]Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.[/i] Mat 18:4-6

[i]The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.[/i] Tit 2:3-5

This may have happened in the world, but this should not be so in the church. Unfortunately churches are to blame, because they should be the salt and light of the world, but precisely because they have not been salt and light, and have not learned and kept and feared the Lord's commandments,...

Speaking of salt and light and the Lords commandments - Look to yourself.

Towards some of the other replies here ... Ginnyrose is many years your senior and needs no lecturing or ponitificating on matters of the gospel - but simply had solicted others for your help - On the one hand one could plead ignorance of this fact, on the other it ought to put a stall on your assumptions or at least the readiness to offer up 'advice' not knowing who you are addressing ...

[i]Be not many teachers, my brethren, knowing that we shall receive heavier judgment.[/i] Jas 3:1

Thanks, Mike. I knew you and many others here on SI would be on the same page: we are called to share the gospel with whoever, wherever and whenever we have the opportunity. However, I am a tad bit taken back with the idea of not sharing the gospel apart from the parents, apart from the family hierarchy - husband, wife and then children. I have never heard of this theory.

As I look at Scripture, the history shared therein, inspired by the Holy Spirit, we see Jesus sharing the Gospel apart from the conventional socially accepted places....It was NOT proper for a male to speak to a female in public, but Jesus ignored the culture and spoke to a woman at the well. Remember?

Brother Paul, went to the riverside where the women would meet and he preached. Acts 16:13. As one reads Acts we find the apostles preaching to whomever, wherever...BTW, they even cast out a devil from a girl without the parents' or master's permission! Acts 16:17-19

Brothers, if God has not called you to share the gospel with minors, then by no means do lest you become a stumbling block to this poor child. That sin would be much greater then your silence. But when you see a person drowning in the depths of sin, compassion motivates one to throw a lifeline regardless of family status, or position. This is what Jesus did and it seems to me he is an excellent role model, don't you think?

Now for an update for those who are concerned and prayed - you deserve one.

I did as I felt led and I just talked to the girls. I told them how they needed to repent, listen to the voice of the Holy Spirit, etc. At the end, my helper asked the girls if they had any questions? and did they ever come! They notice every little thing we do and don't do: "why don't you wear a watch?" (I experience an allergic reaction to the metals); "why don't you go to balls?" and on and on. I shared how they will be making choices which will impact their future and they wondered what on earth that could be? I started out by telling them they should not allow their boyfriends to play with their body....you can guess where this discussion went. They were amazed when told that yes, we were virgins when we married and have been married now for almost 42 years and that we had five children and 11 grandchildren...

As it is at the moment, I have no idea what impact our conversation has had, but at the least it gave them new information that I am certain the Holy Spirit will use to teach, and convict in the future. (Actually, another thing that came out is that they think we are so good, never sin...fortunately, our pastor just happened to walk by and I called out to him and asked him if he ever sinned?!)

Now it is the next morning and I had a good nights' rest. And am certain the Holy Spirit will use what little we were able to share to prod them, teach them.

On the practical level, I think a small group of no more then six, maybe 4 girls would be more ideal. Then the teacher could build better rapport with the students and get more personal. As it was last night, questions came from all sides with not enough time to give justice to all. (And would you know that while we were in the midst of this, a storm came up and we were forced inside. The storm was violent enough to blow a tree down a mile east of us, blocking the road.) Reckon the devil was fighting us? I know the Holy Spirit is still greater and in that I will trust.

Thank-you so kindly for the encouragement you gave, the prayers offered. And may I also inform you that next week our church will be hosting a VBS in a large city....and the facility they were able to acquire is nothing short of a miracle. Again, it is not numbers we are interested in, it is faithfulness on our part - allow the Holy Spirit to take responsibility for results.

Blessings,
ginnyrose

Hi everyone.

Ginnyrose,

"Reckon the devil was fighting us?"

This morning as I was thinking about this subject I thought of how Paul wrote that a great door was opened unto him, but there were many adversaries(1Co 16:9).

And I thought too of how we ourselves can be an obstacle, or things in us or about us can be. But we also believe that God can overcome it.

I remembered how about two or three years ago, I got on the bus to go home from work one day and a group of young people were in the back of the bus making so much noise and obnoxious yelling and outbursts that the whole bus was filled with the noise of it.

As I took a seat in the middle of the bus and was forced by the volume of it to hear what they were saying I became more and more aggitated. I wanted to say something to them but I didn't want to speak out wrongly or say something amiss!

I started to pray earnesly for God's help. I remembered a tract that I had which was like a poem about the Ten Commandments and I got an idea of what to do. I stood up and walked back to where they were. The group of kids(mostly if not all of whom were white) probably took up the whole back of the bus. As I approached them I spoke up loud enough for them to hear me(loud enough for them to hear me but in a calm and nonthreatening way) and told them that, as I had had to listen to them for a while, they were going to have to listen to me now.

And so I read them the tract.

This lead to some conversation and I was able to share with them about the Gospel. After this, whenever I would get on the bus they were on, they would invite me to the back of the bus to sit with them. They were still obnoxious(some of them), some would listen, some would scoff, others asked questions.

Like you, I have no idea what the fruit of it would ever be.

But we trust that God will work good, and we remember that with God nothing shall be impossible and all things are possible to him that believes.

I did as I felt led and I just talked to the girls. I told them how they needed to repent, listen to the voice of the Holy Spirit, etc. At the end, my helper asked the girls if they had any questions? and did they ever come! They notice every little thing we do and don't do: "why don't you wear a watch?" (I experience an allergic reaction to the metals); "why don't you go to balls?" and on and on. I shared how they will be making choices which will impact their future and they wondered what on earth that could be? I started out by telling them they should not allow their boyfriends to play with their body....you can guess where this discussion went. They were amazed when told that yes, we were virgins when we married and have been married now for almost 42 years and that we had five children and 11 grandchildren...

AMEN!!
That's what it's all about!! That's what every young non-Christian girl needs, a frank heart to heart that penetrates via the Holy Spirit!

(Now to wether it was the devil that blew the tree down? Could be, regardless of it's origination the fact remains that in these present days young girls are assaulted by a hellish onslaught every day. Storms which are much to tumultuous for them to deal with on their own. There's really only one safe place to be in this world... in that wonderful place made by Christ Himself, in the cleft of the Rock.)

I remember speaking to a young mother a few years ago in a wonderful Bible believing church, and she mentioned her two young daughters ages one of them being 12. I also remember the shocked look on her face when I mentioned to her that I believed that 12 was the age that really established a young girls heart and its direction and was such a pivitol age. On the brink, you could say, moving on from that stage of "innocence" to womanhood...

What a wonderful testimony for those girls to hear! I'm sure many of them could never grasp such a life.

It seems that, that place of childhood "innocence" has been so far removed.. I wish I coud describe the horrors that the loss of innocence creates inside of a girls soul...

Now it seems as though unless you live in a community where girls are surrounded by the godly, and even then it is no assurance, the world will rip open their conscience earlier and earlier to the point where I so fear the ramifications for these next generations, should the Lord tarry, My granddaughters' generation.

I have heard so many testimonies from around the world about young girls who came out of a horrible life and family, became godly Christians and have impacted thousands.

No, [i]...if God so cares for the sparrow[/i] which is here today and gone tomorrow, how much more the soul of an eternal creation whose hearts and consciences have been smashed by godless, wicked, adult humanity.

I praise God for you, and will keep your churches work in my heart this next week.

Love in Christ,
Lori

Do you believe God will save somebody against their own will?

No.

Do you believe that if God has foreknown and predestined somebody to be saved, that person will end up in hell just because "you didn't tell him about Jesus" when you had the opportunity?

No.

But can you save them? Can you make them accept the Christ? You are saying that "they are doomed to hell unless there is repentance", but can you repent on their behalf?

No.

Do you realize that the majority of men will not repent and will not be saved because they choose not to?

Yes.

--they need to see righteous living on earth (something which churches mostly ignore these days

This is precisely the point: they look on us as being so advantaged, so righteous they think it is too far above them, something they cannot attain. And they are right: they cannot obtain it on their own. It only comes from God and this is the point we worked to drive home to them.

Brother, I am like the hen Jesus talked about in Matthew 23:37.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts,

ginnyrose

I urge you sister to reach out to the mothers of these young women, regardless of their resistance.

Brother, you make a lot of excellent points....and I see you are fairly new here on SI. FYI, I likely have spoken to some of these moms when I worked as a counselor at the CPC. I know the mentality of these people quite well. They are religious, know what is right and what is wrong. They will agree with you but have absolutely no motivation to change. Sometimes I wish God would give them a vision of hell so they will be motivated to repent. But then I think that even this likely wouldn't work or else he would do it.

Brother, I want to give you a challenge: you move to Mississippi, to what appears to be a God-forsaken hole where the devil is king and you start preaching. Missippi (after living here you will learn how 'Mississippi' is pronounced!) is large enough and there are enough hell holes to accommodate you plus many others. I challenge you! Come!

Blessings,
ginnyrose

fuehrerbe21 wrote:
There is an epidemic in the land of dead beat fathers. Men, no matter what race, need to step up to the plate and fulfill their God given role as men.

Greetings, all. Just thought I'd add a comment late in this thread.

I am among those who agonize over the broken-down condition of families in our day, and I very much appreciate what sister Ginnyrose has been doing. The Lord bless you, sister. These young girls don't know their right hand from their left... and your heart breaks for them (and mine).

At the same time, it seems we (the church) are always more or less in "mop-up mode" if I can put it that way. We're always there to clean up the mess... and that's not wrong.

But sometimes I wonder. Are we really getting anywhere?

It's like... I come into the house, and there's water all over the floor. So I feverishly start cleaning up. Before too long I recognize I need help, and I call for help. We organize a clean-up committee, and we all get into it together, and we get pretty good at it after a while...

...But meanwhile, the tap is still running, and the water continues to spill all over the place!

Who is going to see what the real problem is, and turn off the tap?

God means for us (the church) to be more than just the clean-up crew... though it's acknowledged (at times even by the world) that we make a pretty good clean-up crew.

It's true, painfully, painfully true, what F21 said above: where are the dads in our society? WHERE ARE THE MEN?

The Devil knows what he has been doing, in attacking the men... and destroying the families in the process. He certainly knows what he has been doing.

We need to seek God for such a move of God that TURNS THE TAP OFF.

How I long to see the ministry Malachi prophesied of.

"Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse" (Mal. 4.5-6).

...First the heart of the fathers to the children.

After that, the heart of the children to the fathers.

Oh God... bring the kind of conviction that begins to grip the hearts of the men... the fathers. Turn the hearts of the fathers!

AD

I too enter late in this conversation, at first reading only the first, "newest first" page. Perhaps the VBS week is over. Since the subject is important and the difficulty shared by all at some point, here were my first thoughts. Will read the whole thread.

Ginny what material are you using? Does it break your heart? Is it alive in you? THAT VERY WEEK? Do you share that? I hope you approve of the material you are using.

I agree you are planting seeds that may not sprout for years but what you are wrestling with is the lack of the Word being alive to them. Applicable. The attention given in the individual writing time time may reflect that that is the time the content is the most alive to them. They have a part in it.

[u]Praying that the Lord make His Word alive, the biblical principles alive[/u]. Do you see in the newspaper the very thing addressed in the lesson for the week? Bring the paper in. Do you over hear youth talking about the very difficulty you will be covering? Tell them. Have any of them encountered what you will be covering? or what you just covered last week?

Being in school with God, the Holy Spirit is not the same as being in school in the kingdom of this world. Pointing out that difference, very time it happens, really helps groggy ones awaken (like Oh my, this IS real, this is different).

What a calling you have Sister. My recollections of VBS, when I went to them, is “something nice was there” and there was something true about the light we sang about. Years later I understood much more about what happened there.

Maybe I should give an example of awakening application. It easy to remember the “dramatic” ones, [u]although the many “little” ones are often more penetrating[/u]. I was asked to speak to some Korean Bible student in America to learn biblical council ling. I knew opening up the power at the cross of the death of self to bring freedom from “mental difficulties was not being mentioned and was central (my opinion). The obstacle of pride seemed to be a needed entry point and it had already disrupted the class. The morning before I shared principles, the local newspaper had an article God used to drive home the point: Headline print: PRIDE KILLS. Story: Local Korean man kills his retarded daughter because “It was pride. I felt constantly embarrassed by her condition, humiliated at church.” I have a file folder now of such secular reports of biblical truth.

P.S. Disruption occurs between the Word of God and the heart of man. Adults are only different in that they have learned how to make shopping lists quietly in their minds, fall asleep sitting up without their heads bobbing, etc. Unless you look for fruit and growth you'd never know how great the disruption is.

I believe that to argue against the VBS class because of no specific example for doing such is found in Scripture, really misses the heart of Christ. Ginny,I hope that the following from J.C Ryle will be an encouragement to you to continue on in these labors...

And he arose from thence, and cometh into the coasts of Judaea by the farther side of Jordan: and the people resort unto him again; and, as he was wont, he taught them again.
(Mark 10:1)

Wherever our Lord went, He was always about His Father's business, preaching, teaching, and laboring to do good to souls. He threw away no opportunity. In the whole history of His earthly ministry we never read of an idle day. Of Him it may be truly said that He, "sowed beside all waters" and that "in the morning He sowed His seed and in the evening withheld not His hand." (Isa 32:20 ; Eccles 11:6)

And yet our Lord knew the hearts of all men. He knew perfectly well that the great proportion of His hearers were hardened and unbelieving. He knew, as He spoke, that most of His words fell to the ground uncared for and unheeded, and that so far as concerned the salvation of souls, most of His labors were in vain. He knew all of this, and yet He labored on.

Let us see in this a standing pattern for all who seek to do good to others, whatever their office may be. Let this be remembered by every minister, missionary, schoolmaster, Sunday-school teacher, every head of house and every nurse who has charge of children. Let all such remember Christ's example and do likewise. We are to work on steadily, the duty is ours, and the results are God's. There must be plowmen and sowers as well as reapers as binders of sheaves.

-excerpted from [i]Expository Thoughts on the Gospels[/i] by J.C. Ryle

Quote from JoanM: Ginny what material are you using? Does it break your heart? Is it alive in you? THAT \tVERY WEEK? Do you share that? I hope you approve of the material you are using.

REPLY: The material was so good, almost too good because I had to pick and choose from it. I was at a standstill for a month agonizing over what to use. In a few days before VBS started it became clear to me which topics I should use: the Creation, the Fall of man, the flood, the ten commandments, Jesus’ temptation in the wilderness. I internalized all these subjects so I could get the feel for it. Before studying I prayed much. Then when I shared the LORD gave me the words to say. I did not memorize anything. In other words if the Word is hid in your heart, the LORD will be able to use that and what is lacking he will fill in. So in essence it is not me, I am only a tool. Does this make sense?
***************************************************************************************
QUOTE from JoanM: Disruption occurs between the Word of God and the heart of man. Adults are only different in that they have learned how to make shopping lists quietly in their minds, fall asleep sitting up without their heads bobbing, etc. Unless you look for fruit and growth you'd never know how great the disruption is.

REPLY: Now isn’t this the truth!!!
**************************************************************************************
QUOTE from: InTheLight: And yet our Lord knew the hearts of all men. He knew perfectly well that the great proportion of His hearers were hardened and unbelieving. He knew, as He spoke, that most of His words fell to the ground uncared for and unheeded, and that so far as concerned the salvation of souls, most of His labors were in vain. He knew all of this, and yet He labored on.

Let us see in this a standing pattern for all who seek to do good to others, whatever their office may be. Let this be remembered by every minister, missionary, schoolmaster, Sunday-school teacher, every head of house and every nurse who has charge of children. Let all such remember Christ's example and do likewise. We are to work on steadily, the duty is ours, and the results are God's. There must be plowmen and sowers as well as reapers as binders of sheaves.

-excerpted from Expository Thoughts on the Gospels by J.C. Ryle

REPLY: I will have to share this via our church bulletin next Sunday. I think it will encourage the other teachers.
*************************************************************************************

I talked with our assistant pastor today about VBS, shared insights on what could have been done to improve the situation., etc.

In the course of the conversation he mentioned how the male teachers for the teen aged boys felt. If I think I had it bad, they had it much worse. Some of the boys would slap, hit, fight, spit, bite…These teachers felt whipped, beaten and at the moment do not feel like teaching anytime soon. One teacher told me of the look she saw in one of the boy’s eyes: it was so wild, evil. Brothers and sisters, from my observation these boys are angry! At what? Maybe you males could answer this? I have a theory…

Again I am challenging you males: there is a great need in Mississippi for men, especially Black males, who love the LORD and wish to share the gospel with the spiritually destitute. We need men who are on fire for God who will not bend, nor bow to the pressures of evil around them.

Blessings,
ginnyrose

Angry males.....

Today I talked with our deacon who drove the van, picking up children.

Friday evening after the storm hit, he took a load of these older boys home. Just before they got there, a fight broke out. He stopped, went back to them and intervened, stopping it. After the boy left, the other boys complained that Mr. Schrock stopped such a good fight: "we haven't seen such a good fight in a long time!"

Brothers and sisters, this culture of violence, anger is totally foreign to us. We know it exists but it is not a part of our culture. Anger is sin just like any other sin: stealing, lying, adultery - you name it. And these poor children are raised in this culture. Mothers yell, scream vile words at their children...they are conditioned to not listen unless the decible gets to a certain level.

Again I ask, who will come and minister to the males who sired these children? they are not dads in any sense of the word. They assume no responsibility for the mothers of their children....many males have children with many women...How will the church ever be able to bring order out of this colossal mess? It is as though God has given these people over to a reprobate mind and culture....

Ever consider the story of the man who lived among the tombs in Mark 5:1-15? Ever think about the financial loss this healing brought to the owners of these hogs? This man's deliverance cost someone thousands of dollars....Then the question comes: how much are we willing to lose to see someone delivered?

To you who declare that ministry cannot be effective apart from addressing the family hierarchy...where and how can you do it when no Biblical structure exists anymore? I agree, mothers ought to be taught, but would you know these 12, 14 year olds could become mothers before too long? The youngest client I had was 12 and pregnant...

ginnyrose

ginnyrose wrote:
How will the church ever be able to bring order out of this colossal mess?

Sister, I don't know if you saw my earlier post or not, but part of the answer to your question lies in our coming to "square one," if you know what I mean: to the place where we (the church) are willing to recognize and agree that we just aren't doing this (aren't bringing order out of this colossal mess).

I often think of a little verse in 1 Samuel (1 Sam. 10.5), in which Samuel is giving a word to Saul. And he says, "After that thou shalt come to the hill of God, where is the garrison of the Philistines: and it shall come to pass..." and he goes on... and... wait a minute! The hill of God where... what? Where the garrison of the Philistines is?

...The enemy had set up his garrison right in their midst, and they had more or less learned to live with it! Carried on business as usual. This is just the way life is...

...What is it going to take to get us to recognize and agree that our many plans and agendas... our busy church activities... our many programs... are not doing the job that needs to be done?

What is it going to take to get us to cancel them all... and SEEK GOD?

He brought order out of chaos once before.

ONLY HE CAN DO IT... but oh, it seems we are so, so willing to settle for less than He is able to do... and wants to do!

AD

Angry males & females

This is not just a Mississippi thing, it is in every state & Country.

If/when someone comes along who can bring them together and focus that anger . . . .

The Muslims have 'outreach' programs *in the jails* and are converting them while in there. Do we have to send our men to prison to reach them, too? Would they listen?

Even if no one was reached in your VBS class, you have done good work here, opening eyes by relating what you faced.

Kindest regards,
white stone

AD,

I did read your earlier post, the one concerning the church which seems to be in a mop-up mode. You are right, I agree.

What one sees in our community are fancy churches with 'business as usual'.

Brother, it just seems that after this experience this week I am more grieved then ever before at how sin has destroyed these people. And I suspect some of the posters here have a valid point about the males being the vehicle through which God salvages society, mainly through the homes but they do not exist as we think of homes. There are just houses where people stay, thanks to the taxpayer; where people are being taught by the ever present idiot box. To relieve boredom there is always a male nearby and perhaps a drug dealer who will assist in this process.

What is it going to take to get us to recognize and agree that our many plans and agendas... our busy church activities... our many programs... are not doing the job that needs to be done?

True. Many programs are useless. Only God can redeem sinners. In the meantime we must be willing to share the gospel. As I write this I am reminded of the many missionaries who have taught for years with no results. Had they quit when it seemed futile, the devil would have won that battle. But they persevered. So, with God's help, we want to be faithful.

Yes, I love these girls....and now we are talking about next summer's VBS. :-) Perhaps the LORD is teaching us something? I have the sense He is and now this could get to be really exciting!

ginnyrose

Hi Sister Ginnyrose...

You might be interested in the book [i]Whose Child Is This?[/i] It is the story of the life and work of Bill Wilson.

As a child, Bill Wilson lived with his mother, a drug addict and prostitute. When he was 12 yrs old, he was walking with his mother along a city street. Suddenly, she told him, "[i]I just can't take it anymore. You wait here[/i]." She left him there. For several days, this 12 yr old kid waited for his mother. People drove by and watched him...and didn't stop to ask if he was okay. Finally, a mechanic who noticed that he was there for several days asked him if he was okay.

This mechanic and his wife invited young Bill Wilson into their home...and sent him to a Christian summer camp a few weeks later. During what most of the other teenagers thought was a "boring Wednesday night meeting," this 12 year old kid was struck to the heart about his need for Jesus. He was the only child to accept Christ that night. He returned from camp and lived with the mechanic and his family for a few years.

Eventually, he grew up and went to Bible school. During the summers, he began working with inner-city children at his home church's Vacation Bible School outreach. After a few years, he was hired to as an assistant pastor at the church...where he began a vibrant bus ministry. Eventually, he moved to the Bushwick section of Brooklyn, New York. He moved there in 1980 with $200 in his pocket and all of his belongings in his station wagon. Over the years, Bill Wilson has been stabbed, sliced, shot, bludgeoned with a brick to the face, and almost burned alive by an inner city gang. However, their church now reaches over 25,000 children per week...and many teenagers and adult family members as well.

This is a very touching and inspiring book. I've had the opportunity to meet with Pastor Bill several times. Even though he is relatively well known (and even served on a President Bush's commission for the inner-cities), he still lives in the ghetto...and still drives a bus each week. He says that he sees himself each time he picks up a child.

By the way, Bill Wilson is a gifted teacher as well. He has written several other books, including [i]The Blind Guide Chronicles[/i], [i]Christianity in the Crosshairs[/i] and [i]Jesus doesn't live in Brooklyn[/i] (which was based upon some graffiti he saw in NY). He has a book entitled [i]One Eyed Kings[/i] that came out a few months ago.

Please keep him in your prayers. I received an email from his ministry that he is severely ill right now.

BTW, I will remain in prayer for you, sister Ginny. I pray that God continues to give you wisdom in all that you endeavor to do for Him. This was a noble task...and I am quite certain that it was pleasing to God.

May this encourage you dear Ginny and fellow laborers. From Wikipedia:

In April 1855 Moody was then converted to evangelical Christianity when his teacher, Edward Kimball talked to him about how much God loved him. His conversion sparked the start of his career as an evangelist. However his first application for church membership, in May 1855, was rejected. He was not received as a church member until May 4, 1856. As his teacher, Mr. Edward Kimball, stated,

"I can truly say, and in saying it I magnify the infinite grace of God as bestowed upon him, that I have seen few persons whose minds were spiritually darker than was his when he came into my Sunday School class; and I think that the committee of the Mount Vernon Church seldom met an applicant for membership more unlikely ever to become a Christian of clear and decided views of Gospel truth, still less to fill any extended sphere of public usefulness."

Maybe a distinction could be made here between responsibility and opportunity?

I appreciate this statement.

I just want to clarify that I NEVER said that we should refrain from sharing the Gospel with anyone. I would never think to say something as absurd as that!

What I was saying was that God has established the family for a purpose. Remember, it is a reflection of the church.

Just because, in our fallen state, we have fallen outside of the parameters of what God's word says about the home (divorice, absent parents, etc) does not mean we should deviate from what God's word says about the family.

All I was saying (which I felt was advice or a suggestion) was that perhaps the reason you are/were having a difficult time with the children is because what you were doing (sharing the Gospel, loving the children) was primarily the role of the father and mother of these girls. Because they were/are not fulfilling their role, it had an impact on your efforts to share the Gospel with these children.

I appologize if anyone misunderstood what I was saying, but I do not appologize for what the word says about these things. There may be fault in my words, but God's word is without error.

I remember hearing or reading that D.L. Moody was involved in teaching children or began that way?

Brother, I would encourage you to remember that we should not measure ourselves by other men (no matter how great we may percieve them) but by God's word alone.

Love is the fulfillment of the law.

Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

Is Christ love? Yes. Is He so much more? Yes.

Love is the fulfillment of the law because Christ is the fulfillment of the law.

This verse was posted at the end of a very good testimony. I believe it can apply to your 'class' as well.

Timothy 2:24-26 "And the Lord’s servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will."

ginnyrose, Your responses have brought me to believe you [b]are[/b] kind to everyone and certainly are the Lord's servant.

regards,
white stone

Your responses have brought me to believe you are kind to everyone and certainly are the Lord's servant.

God has put me through the fire so I could even [i]begin[/i] to be kind to folks...but I can get really upset when Christians don't act like Christians. So, ya reckon I am still in the fire? Methinks so. I am learning to appreciate situations that had me resentful for years because of the lessons learned.

Chris, I love the story you posted. I am going to get this book..hope Amazon has it.

I have been gratified with all the teachers who shared here about their experiences in teaching children. I love teaching children. Because of my teaching children at church, I have been able to develop close relationships with some of those students. One little girl - 12 YO - still comes up and hugs me every Sunday. I love this.

To all of you who have taken the time to share encouragement, I thank you. You are so wonderfully kind and gracious. I also appreciate those who disagreed with the method we are using. You shared ideas that are worth considering. I do not take offense with your posts. This encouragement is so great that I am looking forward to the future and wonder how it will all pan out. And I now God will use our week with these girls to his honor and glory. Sow and water - said one poster. And that is so right! As long as we are content to be faithful we won't get discouraged, will we?

Now if I know how the devil works, he will throw me a curve in the next few days, make me question whether God is true at all. He does that, you know. He just cannot stand to see God honored and glorified. Yes, my preacher-grandfather is right: the older you get the more the devil works to trip you up.

God bless all of you.

ginnyrose

Chris,

I just got this book today - bought it through Amazon.

I started reading it and it just about makes me sick - physically sick! It nauseates me. The horror of those precious children. Makes one feel like applying some milestone therapy to some people.

Fetal Alcohol Syndrome has hit our family hard. My BIL and his wife married late in life and could not have any children so they went to the Ukraine and adopted two precious girls, both sisters who are afflicted with FAS...all because the parents chose to abuse alcohol.Today the oldest one, aged 15, I think, is in a rehab home, making no or little progress the last I heard. She had become murderous, suicidal, violent, rebellious. Her learning ability is impaired; her sisters is worse but appears at the moment to be more stable. My BIL and SIL have done everything they could for these girls... I love these girls and it grieves me deeply to see them and their parents suffer so.

The parents have done much work to help them cope and overcome their learning disability. A couple years ago they were here for a reunion and they sang/played "The Creation". My BIL did the narration while his wife and girls played the violins. It was so beautiful. At our invitation they came to our church and performed this piece at the end of the service and the people loved it!

Brother, I am left speechless.....

ginnyrose

Hi Ginny...

Yes, the book is heartwrenching. The opening anecdote (about the little girl found dead in a cooler) is haunting. This was the reason he entitled the book [i]Whose Child is This[/i]?

As you read the book, you will find out how this little 12 yr old had his life changed by the actions of a rather unremarkable Christian man (a mechanic) who did a rather remarkable thing. He reached out to this 12 year old street kid with the love of Jesus Christ. That 12 year old boy, Bill Wilson, grew up and reached out with the love of Jesus Christ to multitudes of children in the streets of New York City.

Let me know what you think when you finish reading it. It does get better (and turns from tragic to triumphant) as the book progresses. By the end, I was inspired in a manner similar to when I first read [i]The Cross and the Switchblade[/i].

In searching the web for an appropriate article on Fathers to put in our church bulletin I found this on www.bible.org. It is old - and the stats now higher? - but its truth is still obvious (and a no-brainer). I am posting it here:

Fathers Absence

Studies show that the absence of the father expresses itself in male children in two very different ways: it is linked to increased aggressiveness on one hand, and greater manifestations of effeminacy on the other. A 1987 study of violent rapists found that 60 percent of them came from single-parent homes. A Michigan State University study of adolescents who committed homicides found that 75 percent of them were from broken homes. Girls without fathers fare no better. They become sexually active sooner and are more likely to have out-of-wedlock children.

Children at Risk, J. Dobson & G. Bauer, Word, 1990, pp. 167-168

ginnyrose