George Carlin is in Hell,Billy Graham going to hell

"Fresh Bread from the ovens of Westboro Baptist Church"

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd0dtyr3ifw&feature=related]George Carlin is in hell[/url]

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgJxQXzwizE&feature=related]Billy Graham going to hell[/url]

please forgive me brethern, I don't mean to make light of this all, or be flippant, but I was web browsing and saw these video's from Fred Phelps, and I ponder why he is, the way he is.

How Fred can take Truth and make it so.......I dont even know the word, but I had to put this up there, not for argument, but for illumination...oh by the way, I did not write those captions on the video.

neil

Brother Neil,
I watched the latter video and I was appaulled... I don't understand how people can call themselves followers of Christ and be filled with so much hate and venom. Jesus came as the epitome of love, He came to forgive and not to condemn. Sure there is a balance between God's wrath and God's mercy, but, unlike these people seem to portray, God forgave Israel time and time again... God tempers judgement with mercy. We are told in Ps 103 that God does not treat us as our sins deserve, but according to His great mercies He is forgiving and slow to anger.
Whilst suffering on the cross, taking man's sins as His own, Jesus cried out.. Father, forgive them! He identified with the hungry and the naked, those in prison, those of lowly state as His own suffering, saying... when you do it not to the least of these, you do it not to me. What about the parable of the Good Samaritan?? Jesus placed the definition of 'neighbour' into a broader context. I believe we should love all sinners as Christ did: He layed down His life for us whilst we were dead in our sin. John said, “If anyone says, 'I love God,' yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen." (1 John 4:20) I don't believe that these words just extend to our brothers and sisters in Christ, but to our larger family whom Christ has called us to reach for Him, as mentioned in the parable of the Samaritan, along with so many other scriptures (too many to name!). I think we need to be aware of these hate mongers who perpetuate their destructive 'course' in the name of Christ.
Just a little add on... I'm praying for Billy Graham... He was a man with a remarkable evangelism ministry who has been deceived in these last days, but I do believe God will temper judgement with mercy and restore His heart/mind before He dies. Praise God for His continued grace.

The problem Mr. Phelps has should not be with Billy Graham, but with his obvious lack of mercies and love for the Lost. It is easy to justify yourself through elevating your doctrine as righteousness. It was at the heart of the Pharisee's rebellion, and the thing that the Lord Jesus attacked continually, proving them to be hypocrites. The fruit of God is shown in the Agape Presence of Jesus, not in the pointing of the finger toward the failures of others.

Jesus declared; "The Prostitutes and the drunkards shall enter the kingdom of God before you!"....to the Pharisees...and "Unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall likewise PERISH."

Jesus spoke of a day, when many would say to the lord Jesus; "Did not we do many miracles and mighty deeds, in your Name?"

Jesus replied; "Depart from Me you workers of iniquity, I never knew You! [into the fire that will never be quenched] ...."and in that day there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth!"

Many assume because their doctrinal stance and awareness of heresy will justify them, as Mr. Phelps here does, but in the reality of God iniquity is defined as an absence of true mercy, and compassion; IE, the good Samaritan. Which one was his brother?

The use of derogatory slang for homosexual people is a disgrace, and most un-Christlike. It is grieving, I think, to the Holy Spirit, and the Lord who died for such a one, as he did for you and I in our Satanic Adam life. Which one is more disgusting; the greedy fornicator and pompous narcissist, or the soul caught up in the terrible bondage of Sodomy? In reality, unless we are cleansed and born again, we are all the same; LOST...and yes, in a burning Hell ever so real.

In the END, it is all about Mercy; and I fear that Mr. Phelps is hardened to that most important heart fruit that God demands, and the lack of it will surely damn you.

"But if you forgive not those who trespass against you; NEITHER WILL YOUR HEAVENLY FATHER FORGIVE YOU!"

We should fear, and be careful to manifest mercy for the weak and the sinner. Perhaps they will see Jesus, and repent, and be saved.

To Neil:

Billy Graham will personally answer to Jesus for the apostacy that he is responsible for bringing into the Body of Christ---Jesus Christ's Church.

Phelps is right on. Billy Graham is totally apostate. In fact, he was personally responsible for “Living Bible” being used by mainline Christianity

"Tyndale House Publishers was founded by Taylor for the purpose of publishing his paraphrase, beginning with the Epistles as Living Letters in 1962.[color=990000] In the following year the evangelist Billy Graham offered Taylor's paraphrase as a television premium on broadcasts of his popular "Crusades," and this brought the book into prominence[/color]

8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
(Galatians 1:8-9).

[b]The inspired Apostle Paul condemns in the strongest terms possible those who teach another Gospel other than the biblical Gospel of Jesus Christ. This means that God’s Word itself passes judgment on the souls of men who unrepentantly continue in their errors and persist in teaching wicked lies and the cunning fables of men in place of the true eternal Gospel of grace. Based upon this clear and direct curse pronounced upon them by the inspired Word of God we must conclude that the false teachers of false soul-damning gospels are accursed.[/b]

[b]SCHULLER: Tell me, what do you think is the future of Christianity?[/b]

[color=990000]GRAHAM: Well, Christianity and being a true believer — you know, I think there’s the Body of Christ. This comes from all the Christian groups around the world, outside the Christian groups. I think everybody that loves Christ, or knows Christ, whether they’re conscious of it or not, they’re members of the Body of Christ. [How can anyone love Christ or know Christ and not be conscious of it (Rom. 8:9,16; 10:14; 1 John 3:24; 4:13; John 3:18)?] And I don’t think that we’re going to see a great sweeping revival that will turn the whole world to Christ at any time. I think James answered that — the Apostle James in the first council in Jerusalem, when he said that God’s purpose for this age is to call out a people for His name. And that’s what God is doing today, He’s calling people out of the world for His name, whether they come from the Muslim world, or the Buddhist world, or the Christian world, or the non-believing world, they are members of the Body of Christ because they’ve been called by God.[b] They may not even know the name of Jesus, but they know in their hearts that they need something that they don’t have, and they turn to the only light that they have, and I think that they are saved, and that they’re going to be with us in heaven.[/color][/b]

[b]SCHULLER: Well, what I hear you saying, that it’s possible for Jesus Christ to come into human hearts and soul and life, even if they’ve been born in darkness and have never had exposure to the Bible. Is that a correct interpretation of what you’re saying?[/b]

[color=990000]GRAHAM: Yes, it is, because I believe that. I’ve met people in various parts of the world in tribal situations, that they have never seen a Bible or heard about a Bible, and never heard of Jesus, but they’ve believed in their hearts that there was a God, and they’ve tried to live a life that was quite apart from the surrounding community in which they lived.[/color]

[b]SCHULLER: This is fantastic! I’m so thrilled to hear you say that! There’s a wideness in God’s mercy![/b]

[color=990000]GRAHAM: There is. There definitely is. [/color]

[b]If you’re not absolutely shocked by such sentiments then you’ve not been paying attention to God’s Word. Yet Billy Graham’s unbiblical ecumenical madness isn’t the recent product of a deranged and demented mind racked with age – on the contrary such blatantly false teaching has for decades consistently spewed forth from the pulpits attended by Graham.

It deeply saddens me to know that the man who became known as “America’s Preacher” is nevertheless guilty of turning his back on the The Risen Lord of Glory. And while we can rest assured that men will always disappoint us, I am filled with righteous indignation at the fact that not only has the dog returned to his vomit, but through his broad influence and shameless spiritual smut-peddling he’s guilty of causing countless others who have followed in his footsteps to commit grave error through his example of rank apostasy.

Billy Graham has led an entire generation of pastor-teachers down the slippery slope of doctrinal error and ”ends-justify-the-means” pragmatism and his well established pattern of spiritual adultery with the likes of anti-Reformer Robert Schueller is highly documented and irrefutable.

This article from WND is but one example of the clear and established pattern of compromise of Billy Graham. Graham’s words in the linked article are eerily similar to the utterly unbiblical non-position taken by the apostate, anti-christ, Word of Faith arch-heretic and mouthpiece of Satan known as Joel Osteen when he was quizzed about whether or not non-Christians can go to heaven on CNN’s “Larry King Live” television show:[/b]

[color=0000FF]KING: Because we’ve had ministers on who said, your record don’t count. You either believe in Christ or you don’t. If you believe in Christ, you are, you are going to heaven. And if you don’t no matter what you’ve done in your life, you ain’t.[/color]

[color=990000]OSTEEN: Yeah, I don’t know. There’s probably a balance between. I believe you have to know Christ. But I think that if you know Christ, if you’re a believer in God, you’re going to have some good works. I think it’s a cop-out to say I’m a Christian but I don’t ever do anything …[/color]

[color=0000FF]KING: What if you’re Jewish or Muslim, you don’t accept Christ at all?[/color]

[color=990000]OSTEEN: You know, I’m very careful about saying who would and wouldn’t go to heaven. I don’t know …[/color]

[color=0000FF]KING: If you believe you have to believe in Christ? They’re wrong, aren’t they?[/color]

[color=990000]OSTEEN: Well, I don’t know if I believe they’re wrong. I believe here’s what the Bible teaches and from the Christian faith this is what I believe. But I just think that only God with judge a person’s heart. I spent a lot of time in India with my father. I don’t know all about their religion. But I know they love God. And I don’t know. I’ve seen their sincerity. So I don’t know. I know for me, and what the Bible teaches, I want to have a relationship with Jesus.[/color]

[b]In case that response was too “nuanced” for our dear readers please allow me to translate for you:
So long as you’re “sincere” you may get go to “heaven”…maybe. “Jesus” may work for some of people who call themselves “Christians” – like me Joel Osteen (*insert broad toothy grin*) – and maybe they’re right…uh…I mean…um…maybe I’m right, but I’m not too sure about that, in fact I really don’t know, but hey, I don’t want to drag you down or beat you up with the Bible! Just be encouraged, friend! Maybe Buddha or Baal or a tree or a rock or a cow or the “Great Nothing” or…whatever…works for you and if so, it’s all good just so long as you’re “sincere” about whatever religion (or lack of thereof) you may (or may not) profess because Gawd has a wunnerful plah-yun fer yer life!

Unbelievable! This is a supposedly Christian pastor who’s squirming in his seat and giving unbiblical non-answers when quizzed about whether or not practicing, non-Christian Jews and Muslims are going to heaven! A small child who’s paid any attention whatsoever during Sunday School could answer this simple and direct question! Was this not an opportunity to share the Gospel message? Is Osteen not a messenger of the Gospel of Jesus Christ? Read the transcript again and decide for yourself in the light of infallible scripture.[/b]

[color=0000FF]With these and similar consistent statements in mind and based upon the crystal clear teaching found in Galatians 1:8-9 the sad conclusion that is reached is that Joel Osteen, like Billy Graham, must be deemed as an accursed, apostate, false teacher and a rank heretic. We can see this clearly because in the singular moment that “Smilin’ Joel” had in which to decide if he should risk the vaporization his fawning media coverage and the obliteration his “seeker friendly” status by proclaiming the exclusive and narrow way of Christ, he chose obedience to his father the devil and sought after the praise of men instead of being faithful to the Risen Lord of Glory Jesus Christ and His eternal Gospel of grace.

Joel Osteen is a friend of the world, and we know from Scripture that whosoever is friends with the world is at enmity with God Almighty.
Based upon these exact same types of evidences we must also conclude that Billy Graham is in fact an enemy of the One True and Living God who has forsaken his first love. Unfortunately he is so iconic within the modern professing church that many, if not most, would prefer to turn a blind eye to his manifold errors than expose them, and this is perhaps the gravest disservice of all. For those who true are born-again believers in Jesus Christ are to exhort and correct our fellow professing believers, not enable them in the error of their ways. But since the body of Christ has become derelict in its duty and for decades has been more than happy to leave a fool to his folly we find that Billy Graham’s apostasy is older than you think.
Futhermore in this short audio file Pastor John MacArthur astutely and irrefutably links the apostate universalism espoused by the harlot Roman Catholic Church, Billy Graham, and Robert Schueller which is the exact same demonic pack of lies that is being parroted by the arch-heretic Joel Osteen in the CNN transcript quote shown above. These heretical and unscriptural teachings are undeniably present in modern day evangelicalism and they are just as spiritually deadly and poisonous as ever.
“For it were better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy commandment delivered unto them.” (2 Peter 2:21)[/color]

[color=990000]From Biblical Discernment Ministries: Billy Graham – General Teachings/Activities

Fifty years of compromise have increased Billy Graham’s popularity but have resulted in a serious loss of spiritual discernment and Scriptural convictions. Fifty years of compromise have brought Billy Graham into close fellowship and cooperation with millions of those who preach a false gospel and teach dangerous, unscriptural doctrines. His refusal to warn about the false gospel preached by the Roman Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant churches is inexcusable and indefensible. His failure to warn about the dangers of the wildfire teachings of charismatic leaders opens the door for millions of believers to be deceived. Fifty years of compromise have even led Billy Graham into joining with leaders of pagan, heathen religions on the basis of a mutual search for world peace” (March- May 1991 Foundation, p. 16).[/color]

Continue reading BDM’s absolutely devastating article on Billy Graham’s copious history of damnably false and pernicious teachings here:

[url=http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/exposes/graham/general.htm]Billy Graham General Teaching and Activities[/url]

[url=http://defendingcontending.com/2008/11/03/billy-grahams-apostasy/]Billy Grahams Apostacy[/url]

Sincerely,

Walter

To ccchhhrrriiisss:

It would surely help if we all understood what Jesus meant when he referred to the Pharisees, who were persistent [b]enemies of the Lord[/b]

When Jesus referred to Pharisees as a generation of vipers, who exactly was he referring to?

Eastons Bible Dictionary has this to say about the Pharisees:

On the first notice of them in the New Testament (Matt. 3:7), they are ranked by our Lord with the Sadducees as a "generation of vipers." They were noted for their self-righteousness and their pride (Matt. 9:11; Luke 7: 39; 18: 11, 12). They were frequently rebuked by our Lord (Matt. 12:39; 16:1-4).[b] From the very beginning of his ministry the Pharisees showed themselves bitter and persistent enemies of our Lord.[/b] [b] [color=990000] They could not bear his doctrines, and they sought by every means to destroy his influence among the people.[/color][/b]

[b]So what this is telling us is that the true Pharisees, referred to in the Bible, could not bear the DOCTRINES OF JESUS CHRIST, AND THEY SOUGHT BY EVERY MEANS TO DESTROY HIS INFLUENCE AMONG THE PEOPLE.[/b]

That is hardly what Fred Phelps is doing. Actually, he is doing the exact opposite of a Pharisee, he is not against Jesus Christ or the Doctrine of Jesus Christ, he is for the Doctrine of Jesus Christ. He is exposing Billy Graham as doing the same thing that the Pharisees of Old did. What was that? [b]Billy has distorted the Bible Doctrine of Jesus Christ, and replaced it with his own doctrine that states that everyone is going to heaven, even people that do not even know the name of Christ are on their way to heaven.

Actually, Phelps is acting as a Watchman on the Wall in this matter of the false doctrines of Billy Graham & Joel Osteen:[/b]

[b][color=990000]Watchman On The Wall

"O son of man, I HAVE SET THEE A WATCHMAN unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me... IF THOU DOST NOT SPEAK TO WARN THE WICKED from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but HIS BLOOD WILL I REQUIRE AT THINE HAND... IF THOU WARN THE WICKED of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but THOU HAST DELIVERED THY SOUL..." - Ezekiel 33:7-15
"...Be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers. FOR THERE ARE MANY unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: WHOSE MOUTHS MUST BE STOPPED... TEACHING THINGS WHICH THEY OUGHT NOT... This witness is true. WHEREFORE REBUKE THEM SHARPLY, that they may be sound in the faith..." -Titus 1:9-13[/color][/b]

So to sum this up for you ccchhhrrriiisss, Billy Graham is the Pharisee, and Phelps is the “Watchman on the Wall”!

Also, Hell is real, and Jesus has much to say about it:

In Matthew 13:42, Jesus says: "And shall cast them into a FURNACE OF FIRE: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

In Matthew 25:41, Jesus says: "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting FIRE,. . ."

Revelation 20:15 says, " And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the LAKE OF FIRE."

Eastons Bible Dictionary has this to say about hell. It is a real place for those who will not accept Jesus Christ's gift BY FAITH:

Topics: Hell

Text: derived from the Saxon helan, to cover; hence the covered or the invisible place. In Scripture there are three words so rendered:-

(1.) Sheol, occurring in the Old Testament sixty-five times. This word sheol is derived from a root-word meaning "to ask," "demand;" hence insatiableness (Prov. 30:15, 16). It is rendered "grave" thirty-one times (Gen. 37:35; 42:38; 44:29, 31; 1 Sam. 2:6, etc.). The Revisers have retained this rendering in the historical books with the original word in the margin, while in the poetical books they have reversed this rule.

In thirty-one cases in the Authorized Version this word is rendered "hell," the place of disembodied spirits. The inhabitants of sheol are "the congregation of the dead" (Prov. 21:16). It is (a) the abode of the wicked (Num. 16:33; Job 24:19; Ps. 9:17; 31:17, etc.); (b) of the good (Ps. 16:10; 30:3; 49:15; 86:13, etc.). Sheol is described as deep (Job 11:8), dark (10:21, 22), with bars (17:16). The dead "go down" to it (Num. 16:30, 33; Ezek. 31:15, 16, 17).

(2.) The Greek word hades of the New Testament has the same scope of signification as sheol of the Old Testament. It is a prison (1 Pet. 3:19), with gates and bars and locks (Matt. 16:18; Rev. 1:18), and it is downward (Matt. 11:23; Luke 10:15). The righteous and the wicked are separated. The blessed dead are in that part of hades called paradise (Luke 23:43). They are also said to be in Abraham's bosom (Luke 16:22).

(3.) Gehenna, in most of its occurrences in the Greek New Testament, designates the place of the lost (Matt. 23:33). The fearful nature of their condition there is described in various figurative expressions (Matt. 8:12; 13:42; 22:13; 25:30; Luke 16:24, etc.). (See HINNOM.)

Sincerely,

Walter

learned Mr. Phelps is a disbarred attorney and as are his sons. He talks like an attorney with lots of rhetoric which is very persuasive

Oh yes indeed, its even worse than you think. Most of the grown kids are attorneys, and they get money from the govt civil rights kitty, when they have to defend themselves for holding up the worst sort of signage at the funerals of soliders killed in Iraq or Afghanistan.

When I posted this, (and maybe I shouldnt have) it wasnt to start a rumble on Billy Graham. I posted it, because watching Fred Phelps "ministry" is kind of like watching a bad car crash in slo-motion.

It all serves me as a cautionary tale should we let our dark human urges get the best of us.

much love in Jesus, neil

forgive me, I didnt post Fred Phelps video's up to either confirm or deny Billy Grahams ministry, but

Phelps is right on.

I'm not defending Billy Graham's ministry at all, or start a rumble, I was just kind of aghast at the spirit with which Phelps goes at his thing....do you know about "westboro baptist"? they're a pretty vociferous lil band.

here's a BBC doc, its secular, but it'll give a liitle taste of "westboro"

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSFrNOnvtls]The Most Hated Family In America pt 1[/url]

neil

ps Walter, its not my desire or calling to defend Graham, Schuller, or Osteen, or BBC, for that matter, I just get a check in the Spirit when I hear Phelps "preach", thats all. Dont mean to start a rumble here.

Dear Neil:

Billy Graham has been protected by the elite media since the beginning of his fall from grace to error. Even today, he is seemingly above reproach by Pastors and Ministers who know the truth about him, and are commanded by God's Word to call him out.

As far as Phelps is concerned, he may be a cook, or a nut, but the way he says things has created interest within the body of Christ and the world. What I find interesting on this thread, is there are those who are only focused on Phelps, rather than focused upon the truth of what he is saying. [b]Based upon God’s Word, the Bible, Phelps is correct in his analysis of where Graham will end up, and where Carlin has already arrived-Hell.

What is sad is the responses from the posters on this thread. Many have called Phelps a Pharisee, not even knowing that the Pharisee Jesus was referring to HATED HIM, AND HIS DOCTRINE.

Phelps, no matter who he is or what he is, has spoken the truth FROM GOD'S WORD, and yet no one can see it.

What has happened here, on this thread is to focus on and discredit the messenger, instead of focusing on the messaage, and the truth and implication it has on the body of Christ.

Strange times we live in, brother.[/b]

God bless,

Walter

Natan4Jesus wrote:
forgive me, I didnt post Fred Phelps video's up to either confirm or deny Billy Grahams ministry, but

Phelps is right on.

I'm not defending Billy Graham's ministry at all, or start a rumble, I was just kind of aghast at the spirit with which Phelps goes at his thing....do you know about "westboro baptist"? they're a pretty vociferous lil band.

here's a BBC doc, its secular, but it'll give a liitle taste of "westboro"

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSFrNOnvtls]The Most Hated Family In America pt 1[/url]

neil

ps Walter, its not my desire or calling to defend Graham, Schuller, or Osteen, or BBC, for that matter, I just get a check in the Spirit when I hear Phelps "preach", thats all. Dont mean to start a rumble here.

Walter,
this is deeper than I thought:

both Kermit Love, the creator of "Big Bird", and Tony Snow, press secty for President Bush are now in hell. [url=http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9037589423345219649&ei=hmI0SpO4JKHWrALO9_TrCA&q=kermit+in+hell&hl=en]Kermit Love in hell[/url]

[url=http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4924439639424076224&ei=_mQ0SoixGpHwrgLTyPyBDg&q=tony+snow+in+hell&hl=en]Tony Snow in Hell[/url]

According to the late Mr. Snow, he was "born again", but Fred Phelps isn't buying it.

Now I also learned that on Aug 13, 2008, Fred Phelps proclaimed that "God hates Nebraska", something about Corn husker athletes being involved in a pornography ring, I'm just going to link the Westboro Baptisit Church video archive site so you can see for yourself, look under "God hates Nebraska"

[url=http://www.signmovies.net/videos/news/index.html]WBC Video News[/url]

Neil, how is this done? By filing lawsuits because their 'rights' were violated?

Ginny, thats right, I saw it an another documentary about Westboro documentary called "Fall from Grace".....and since 4 or 5 of his children are lawyers, (Fred was disbarred) anytime, somebody objected to them picketing, whether it be the funeral of a dead solider, or a synagogue, and the Westboro folks felt their 1st Amendment rights were infringed upon, they file a civil rights lawsuit, and the govt is required to pay the "law firm" handling such a case from a dedicated govt fund for such legal actions, so in essence they're paying themselves out the govts pocket, while marching about with signs that read "God hates America" and "Thank God for Dead Soliders". In fact, a grieved father of a fallen Marine took them to court and prevailed, I think he won a 6 million dollar judgement, and that of course is being appealed, and you know that a gaggle of smart lawyers can appeal and appeal forever.

its just sad, because those who are lost and in rebellion to God, use such examples of Phelps as "thats how Christians are", to reinforce their own rebellion. The devil knows Scripture, and its my belief that the enemy uses guys like Phelps to do his cunning destruction. 4 of Phelps 13 children got away from westboro and have told stories of a man who is an anger-holic and regularly beat his children with sticks, kicks to the groin, etc..pyschological abuse and manipulation, terrible stuff.

the devil is just a horrible foe, and I truly long for the day when he and his minions, and evil denoms are cast into the lake of fire, because it just breaks my heart to see anybody doomed to an eternity without God. We can preach, and we can witness, and we can love without agenda in the Spirit of God, but everyone has free will, and some people make terrible decisions. Jesus came to save the WHOLE world, and I wish it was so, that none may perish. I'm sorry, I'm just carrying on, but thats my prayer, that none may perish, amen.

neil

God bless you for turning me onto that message from Jim Cymbala. I had heard about him a few years back, but had never him speak, and what a blessing that was. Thank you so much.

I feel bad that I posted up some of Fred Phelps rantings. I didnt mean to start a bone of contention, it was just that I was so grieved over what I saw, it was like a tectbook of what NOT to do in preaching, witnessing testifying.

Maybe I should wipe the links, I dont't know, what do you think? Robert? Ginny?

I'd write a letter to Fred Phelps right now, but in my spirit, I don't feel it would be recieved.

Tell ya what I do feel, I'm sick at heart that I missed Barnsdall, just sick at heart. I was quite pressed out at that time, but hearing testimonies of God's working Power among the saints at Barnsdall, just fill my heart.

You're a dear brother Chris, thanks for that link. I downloaded the sermon, and will listen again to the whole of it.

May God bless you abundantly, neil

Yes, I'm in concurrence with you, about not knowing why God allows this "ministry" to continue, but our minds, as I'm sure know better than me, cannnot fathom the Deep Things of God or His Purpose.

as far as my future writings? Praise God, He has given me a "non-fiction novel" with Christ very much in the center of it. (I can hear you saying "non-fiction novel, what IS THAT?) what I mean to say is that its the "heroic journey motif", and its set 150 years in a very recognizable future, therefore as I write of this world, it has to be real to me, as if this journey did indeed happen, and every detail of the world 150 years from now, very very real. Nine weak individuals having to go from point a to point b, and the only strength they have to make it, is by relying on the Lord........God is so good, and NO, its not "the shack"! (I'm laughing) My 13 year old son just devours books, and I'm writing it for him, which means it cant be boring. Please pray for me, for Divine inspiration. I love you, neil

and God bless you. Well spoke indeed. I'm so glad that you discerned my intentions were not of ill motivation:

Neil I am sure had the right intention and motivation to present it, to uncover the root of the matter,

Because after some of the responses, I was crestfallen, that I might have opened a can of contention, which was decidely not my purpose.

I was blessed by something on this thread and that was to hear one of Jim Cymbala's messages, and that was very edifying, and of much personal profit.

Have a good Lord's day dear brother, neil xo

God used an [b]ass[/b] to get the attention of Balaam, the false prophet, who was on his way to curse Israel. God, though the ass got his attention, when he started talking to Balaam. Eventhough Balaam did not curse the Israelites, later he suggested a way to Balak by which the Jews might be cursed by God anyway:

“14. But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.”

What was Balaam's reward for his disobedience to God? In a battle between Israel and the Midianites Balaam was slain while fighting on the side of Balak (Num. 31:8).

So, God can warn us today, by the words of a man who could be much like the ass of Balaam. What is Phelps saying to us? God can use anything or anyone to reveal HIS Truth. Is what Phelps saying the TRUTH about Billy Graham? All we have to do is compare what Phelps is saying about Graham, and compare what Graham has said himself, and compare both to the anvil, God's Word, which sorts out truth from error.

[color=990000]YOU BE THE JUDGE, as you witness Billy Graham and his descent from a true Christian believer in 1949 to the apostate that he is today:[/color]

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUDKehwFWjg]Billy Graham 1949, before his fall from grace[/url]

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sow0gfXXHGY]Billy Graham, what has happened? What is going on????[/url]

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mC2WPR7q4pU]Wider Mercy Salvation- Billy Graham exposed[/url]

[color=990000]Is Billy Graham a Christian?
It is hard for anyone to believe that Billy Graham is not a Christian. The world press loves him, as well as the Liberal Christians.

Here are some of the points which some fundamental Christians, who hold that the Bible is our sole authority for all matters of faith and practice, have cited the actual "problems" with Billy Graham's ministry: [/color]

[url=http://members.fortunecity.com/sitaram/page142.htm] Is Billy Graham a Christian? [/url]

[b]Billy Graham accepts degrees from Catholic colleges and says the Catholic gospel is the same as his own

Billy Graham has turned thousands of converts over to apostate churches

Billy Graham thinks the Pope is a great evangelist

Billy Graham thinks there is special power in infant baptism

Billy Graham does not believe hell is a place of literal fiery torment

Billy Graham invites Catholic bishops onto his platform to bless those who come forward at his invitations

Billy Graham praises Christ-denying modernists

Billy Graham has promoted practically every perverted Bible version to appear in the last four decades

Billy Graham's Disobedience To The Word of God
"And Jehu the son of Hanani the seer went out to meet him, and said to king Jehoshaphat, Shouldst thou help the ungodly, and love them that hate the Lord? therefore is wrath upon thee from before the Lord" (2 Chronicles 19:2)

We have begun sending out articles from time to time by e-mail to those who desire to receive them. Many of these are articles from the "Digging in the Walls" section of O Timothy magazine. In October we sent out the article from Volume 12 Issue 9 on Jerry Falwell supporting Billy Graham. That e-mail posting was in turn sent out to a Baptist news group, which is a discussion group on the Internet. Many of the responses we received back from that public posting were very negative. In reading these, I was impressed anew at the ignorance of the average Christian (I use that term in the broadest sense) today. Many of those who responded were completely ignorant of the fact that Billy Graham has sent multitudes of converts back to the Roman Catholic Church or that he praised modernists. These things were not done in the dark, yet many Christians are entirely ignorant of these things. Why? The average Christian "minister" today is a coward whose goal is to fit in the ecumenical scene and to make people feel good about themselves rather than to preach the truth regardless of the cost. The Bible describes these men as "dumb dogs." What good is a watch dog that will not bark? If ever there were an hour in which preachers need to lift the voice against the error which is on every side, it is today. But what do we find? Dumb dogs.

In the article on Falwell supporting Graham we mentioned a number of things of which Dr. Graham is guilty. Following is the documentation to each of these charges. I realize that most of the readers of O Timothy know these facts, but I also realize that it is not always a simple matter to put your hands upon accurate documentation. I trust the following is helpful in giving an answer to those who challenge the veracity of those attempting today to defend the Faith Once Delivered to the Saints:

Billy Graham accepts degrees from Catholic colleges and says the Catholic gospel is the same as his own[/b]

On Nov. 21, 1967, an honorary degree was conferred on Graham by the Catholic priests who run Belmont Abbey College, North Carolina, during an Institute for Ecumenical Dialogue. The Gastonia Gazette reported:

"After receiving the honorary degree of doctor of humane letter (D.H.L.) from the Abbey, Graham noted the significance of the occasion--" a time when Protestants and Catholics could meet together and greet each other as brothers, whereas 10 years ago they could not,' he said.

"The evangelist's first sermon at a Catholic institution was at the Abbey, in 1963, and his return Tuesday was the climax to this week's Institute for Ecumenical Dialogue, a program sponsored in part by the Abbey and designed to promote understanding among Catholic and Protestant clergymen of the Gaston-Mecklenburg area.

"Graham, freshly returned from his Japanese Crusade, said he 'knew of no greater honor a North Carolina preacher, reared just a few miles from here, could have than to be presented with this degree. I'm not sure but what this could start me being called "Father Graham," ' he facetiously added.

"Graham said... 'Finally, the way of salvation has not changed. I know how the ending of the book will be. The gospel that built this school and the gospel that brings me here tonight is still the way to salvation" ("Belmont Abbey Confers Honorary Degree," Paul Smith, Gazette staff reporter, The Gastonia Gazette, Gastonia, North Carolina, Nov. 22, 1967).

[b]Billy Graham has turned thousands of converts over to apostate churches[/b]

The evidence for this is overwhelming and has been widely documented. We have documented this in our book Flirting with Rome: Evangelical Entanglement with Roman Catholicism (Volume 1), available from Way of Life Literature (1219 N. Harns Rd,. Oak Harbor, WA 98277). As early as Sept. 21, 1957, Graham said in an interview with the San Francisco News,[color=990000] "Anyone who makes a decision at our meetings is seen later and referred to a local clergyman, Protestant, Catholic, or Jewish." In 1983, The Florida Catholic (Sept. 2, 1983) reported of the Orlando crusade: "Names of Catholics who had make decisions for Christ were provided at that meeting by Rick Marshall of the Graham organization." The report said the names of 600 people had been turned over to the Catholic Church. In 1984, at the Vancouver, British Columbia crusade, the vice-chairman of the organizing committee, David Cline of Bringhouse United Church, said, "If Catholic step forward there will be no attempt to convert them and their names will be given to the Catholic church nearest their homes" (Vancouver Sun, Oct. 5, 1984). In 1987 a Catholic priest, Donald Willette of St. Jude's Church, was a supervisor of the 6,600 counselors for the Denver crusade. Willette reported that from one service alone 500 cards of individuals were referred to St. Thomas More Roman Catholic Church in Englewood, a suburb of Denver (Wilson Ewin, Evangelism: The Trojan Horse of the 1990s). In 1989, Michael Seed, Ecumenical Advisor to (Catholic) Cardinal Hume, said of Graham's London crusade: "Those who come forward for counseling during a Mission evening in June, if they are Roman Catholic, will be directed to a Roman Catholic 'nurture-group' under Roman Catholic counselors in their home area" (John Ashbrook, New Neutralism II, Mentor, Ohio: Here I Stand Books, 1992, p.35). By September 1992, the Catholic archdiocese of Portland, Oregon, had set a goal to supply 6,000 of the 10,000 counselors needed for the Graham crusade. All Catholics responding to the alter call were channeled to Catholic churches. These are just a few examples of the hundreds which could be given. [/color]

[color=990000]Billy Graham thinks the Pope is a great evangelist :[/color]

In an interview with The Saturday Evening Post, Jan.-Feb. 1980, Graham described the visit of John Paul II to America with these words: "The pope came as a statesman and a pastor, but I believe he also sees himself coming as an evangelist... The pope sought to speak to the spiritual hunger of our age in the same way Christians throughout the centuries have spoken to the spiritual yearnings of every age--by pointing people to Christ." Foundation magazine, Vol. V, Issue 5, 1984, reported that Graham made this statement about the Pope's address in Vancouver, B.C. in 1983: "I'll tell you--that was just about as straight an evangelical address as I've ever heard. It was tremendous."

[color=990000]Billy Graham thinks there is special power in infant baptism:[/color]

In a 1961 interview with the Lutheran Standard, Graham said: "I do believe that something happens at the baptism of an infant... we cannot fully understand the mysteries of God, but I believe that a miracle can happen in these children so that they are regenerated, that is, made Christian, through infant baptism" (Lutheran Standard, October 27, 1961).

[color=990000]Billy Graham does not believe hell is a place of literal fiery torment:[/color]

The Orlando (Florida) Sentinel for April 10, 1983, asked Billy Graham: "Surveys tell us that 85% of Americans believe in heaven, but only 65% believe in hell. Why do you think so many Americans don't accept the concept of hell?" He replied: "I think that hell essentially is separation from God forever. And that is the worst hell that I can think of. But I think people have a hard time believing God is going to allow people to burn in literal fire forever. I think the fire that is mentioned in the Bible is a burning thirst for God that can never be quenched."

"Hell is not the most popular of preaching topics. I don't like to preach on it. But I must if I am to proclaim the whole counsel of God. We must not avoid warning of it. The most outspoken messages on hell, and the most graphic references to it, came from Jesus Himself. ...Jesus used three words to describe hell. ...The third word that He used is 'fire.' Jesus used this symbol over and over. This could be literal fire, as many believe. Or IT COULD BE SYMBOLIC. ...I've often thought that this fire could possibly be a burning thirst for God that is never quenched. What a terrible fire that would be-- never to find satisfaction, joy, or fulfillment!" (A Biblical Standard For Evangelists, Billy Graham, A commentary on the 15 Affirmations made by participants at the International Conference for Itinerant Evangelists in Amsterdam, The Netherlands, July 1983, Worldwide Publications, Minneapolis, Minnesota, pages 45-47).

[color=990000]Billy Graham invites Catholic bishops onto his platform to bless those who come forward at his invitations[/color]

The Roman Catholic bishop of Sao Paulo, Brazil, stood beside Graham during his 1962 crusade in that city, and blessed those who came forward at the invitation. Graham said this illustrated that "something tremendous, an awakening of reform and revival within Christianity" was happening (Daily Journal, International Falls, Minnesota, Oct. 29, 1963, cited by the New York Times, Nov. 9. 1963).

[color=990000]Billy Graham praises Christ-denying modernists[/color]

This has been widely documented for 40 years. In Graham's San Francisco Crusade, 1959, he honored the notorious liberal Bishop James A. Pike by having him on the platform and to lead in prayer. He also appeared at Grace Cathedral with Pike. Yet Pike had written in LOOK magazine, expressing himself as not believing in the fundamentals of the faith. Pike, in a pastoral letter that was to be read in all the Episcopal Churches of his diocese, stated that "Religious myth is one of the avenues of faith and has an important place in the communication of the Gospel." He spoke of the "myth of the Garden of Eden." He said, "the virgin birth... is a myth which churchmen should be free to accept or reject..."

In Graham's 1963 Los Angeles Crusade, Methodist Bishop Gerald Kennedy was chairman of the crusade committee. yet, Kennedy has denied just about every one of the fundamentals of the Christian faith. His printed endorsement is found on the jacket of Nels Ferre's book, The Sun And The Umbrella. In this book Ferre said, "Jesus never was nor became God." ... Ferre says the idea of Christ's pre-existence "is the nature of the grand myth which at its heart is idolatry." Ferre wrote another book entitled The Christian Understanding Of God. In this book he said, "We have no way of knowing, even, that Jesus was sinless." In this book he promotes the theory that Jesus may have been the son of a German soldier. Yet, Graham's campaign chairman endorsed Gerre and his book. In fact, Graham said on August 21, 1963, "Bishop Kennedy is one of the ten greatest Christian preachers in America." The first Sunday of the Crusade, Graham took ten minutes to eulogize Dr. E. Stanley Jones, who is a deluxe modernist and proves it in his book on Mahatma Gandhi (E.L. Bynum, Why We Cannot Support The Billy Graham Crusade, Lubbock, Texas: Plains Baptist Challenger)

[color=990000]Graham's attitude toward modernists is evident in his pleasant relationship with the World Council of Churches. He has attended all but two of the WCC's General Assemblies. Consider the following statements taken from the telegram sent in 1983 by Graham to Philip Potter, General Secretary of the World Council of Churches. Dr. Graham did not appear at the WCC Sixth Assembly in 1983 because of prior engagements: "Dear Philip: Your gracious and generous invitation to speak twice in Vancouver was deeply appreciated. ...I have tried to juggle my schedule but it is just too heavy at this late date for me to make the drastic changes that would be necessary for me to be in Vancouver. This will be only the second general assembly of the WCC that I have had to miss. I will certainly miss seeing you and many other old friends and fellowshipping with those from all over the world..." (FOUNDATION, Vol. IV, Issue IV, Los Osos, Calif.: Fundamental Evangelistic Association, 1983). We should note here that Philip Potter is an apostate Christian leader. He does not believe that those in non-Christian religions are lost, and he advocates violent communist movements! [/color]

These are a mere three examples of Graham's habit of honoring wicked, Bible-denying modernists.

[color=990000]Billy Graham has promoted practically every perverted Bible version to appear in the last four decades![/color]

In 1952 Billy Graham accepted a copy of the modernistic Revised Standard Version and told a crowd of 20,000 people: "These scholars have probably given us the most nearly perfect translation in English. While there may be room for disagreement in certain areas of the translation, yet this new version should supplement the King James Version and make Bible reading a habit throughout America" (Graham, cited by Perry Rockwood, God's Inspired Preserved Bible, Halifax, N.S.: People's Gospel Hour, nd., p. 15)

Graham's endorsement of the Revised Standard Version foreshadowed Evangelicalism's capitulation to the endless stream of modern versions. Graham has endorsed practically every new version to appear on the scene, no matter how flippant and unfaithful.

In his autobiography, modernist Bible paraphraser J.B. Phillips (1906-1982) stated that Billy Graham spoke highly of his work as early as 1952: "I think it was in 1952 that I received a visit from Dr. Billy Graham with his charming and intelligent wife. 'I want to thank you, Dr. Phillips,' he began, 'for Letters to Young Churches'" (J.B. Phillips, The Price of Success, Wheaton: Harold Shaw Pub., 1984, p. 116).

Graham almost single-handedly rescued the Living Bible from oblivion. "The Living Bible might be called 'The Billy Graham Bible,' for it was he who made it the success that it is. According to Time magazine, July 24, 1972, Billy Graham ordered 50,000 copies of the Epistles, and a short time later ordered some 450,000 more, and still later ordered 600,000 special paperback versions for his autumn television crusade in 1972. From that time on, orders began to pour in" (M.L. Moser, Jr., The Case Against the Living Bible, Little Rock: Challenge Press, p.9).

That was only the beginning of Graham's love affair with the Living Bible. At Amsterdam '86, Graham allowed Living Bibles International to distribute free copies of the Living Bible in 40 differed languages to the 8,000 evangelists in attendance (Light of Live, Bombay, India, Sept. 1986, p.23). Graham distributed 10,000 copies of the Living Bible to people who attended his Mission England Crusade (Australian Beacon, No. 241, Aug. 1986). In 1987, Graham appeared in television ads for The Book, a condensed version of the Living Bible. He said it "reads like a novel."

In an ad which appeared in a 1991 issue of Charisma magazine, Graham said: "I read The Living Bible because in this book I have read the age-abiding truths of the scriptures with renewed interest and inspiration. The Living Bible communicates the message of Christ to our generation" (Charisma, March 1991, p. 98).

[color=990000]Billy Graham is also one of the men who first helped make the perverted Good News for Modern Man (Today's English Version) popular by distributing it through his Association. Graham "called it an excellent translation over nationwide television from his campaign in Anaheim, California." It was then distributed by the Grason Company of Minneapolis, the distributors of Billy Graham materials (M.L. Moser, Jr., The Devil's Masterpiece, Little Rock: Challenge Press, 1970, p. 80). The Good News for Modern Man replaces the word "blood" with "death" in speaking of the atonement of Jesus Christ, and corrupted practically every passage dealing with Christ's deity. The translator of the Good News for Modern Man, Robert Bratcher, does not believe that Jesus Christ is God. [/color]

[color=990000]As far as Fred Phelps is concerned, God can use him the same way he used an ass to warn Balmam. If we listen, like Balam did not, and compare what he is telling us with God's Word, the Anvil, and we find out that what he is saying is true---then we will personally escape the danger that is the watered down doctrine of Billy Graham (as seen above), and not the Doctrine of Jesus Christ, as found in His Bible[/color]

Sincerely,

Walter

[b]Falwell[/b] isn't getting off the hook either according to Fred Phelps, or should I say "Fraudwell" as Phelps calls him.

In October we sent out the article from Volume 12 Issue 9 on Jerry Falwell supporting Billy Graham

not to worry, not to worry at all, Phelps is on the job as watchman, and I hope your not calling Phelps an "ass", as Phelps says that anyone opposing him OR the Westboro Baptist Church is committing the unpardonable sin of blasphmey of the Holy Ghost.

Phelps prounounces judgement on Jerry Falwell:

[url=http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8682089528957352638]Jerry Falwell Splits Hell Wide Open![/url]

sincerely, neil

and yes, and just so you dont think Phelps is slacking off he also cast Jerry Ford and Saddam Hussein into hell.

[url=http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1987131553894867469]Ford and Hussein BOTH in Hell[/url]

Natan, I wonder if you have even read my posts. [b]You are bound and determined to slay the messenger, and at the same time, silence his message. [/b]

As believers, we are commanded to compare the doctrine of others to the standard, the Holy
Bible.

I have compared Billy Graham's personal position on the doctrine of Christ since 1949 in my post. The only time he (Billy Graham) agreed with the Doctrine of Jesus Christ was in 1949, based upon what I posted.

Since that time he has fallen into apostacy.

This is the definition of Apostacy from Websters 1828 Dictionary of the English Language:

APOS'TASY, n. [Gr. a defection, to depart.]
\t1. An abandonment of what one has professed; a total desertion, or departure from one's faith or religion.
\t2. The desertion from a party to which one has adhered.
\t3. Among physicians, the throwing off of exfoliated or fractured bone, or the various solution of disease.
\t4. An abscess.

APOS'TATE, n. [Gr.]
\tOne who has forsaken the church, sect or profession to which he before adhered. In its original sense, applied to one who has abandoned his religion; but correctly applied also to one who abandons a political or other party.

APOS'TATE, a. False; traitorous.

APOSTAT'ICAL, a. After the manner of an apostate.

APOS'TATIZE, v.i. To abandon one's profession or church; to forsake principles or faith which one has professed; or the party to which one has been attached.

APOS'TATIZING, ppr. Abandoning a church, profession, sect or party.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I will try to make it clear and simple.

[b]Instead of killing the messenger,and at the same time killing the message, check the message against God's Word, the Bible. Does the Bible teach that everyone goes to heaven, like Billy Graham says? No, it does not, so Billy has created his own Gospel.

Does Billy think that the Roman Catholic's, who are never taught the requirements of salvation, think they are all saved and going to heaven? He does, based upon his personal relationship with the Catholic Church since the early 1950's. If you ever attended one of his "revivals", and you were a catholic, and were convicted of your sin during the service, and went forward to accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, afterwards they asked you to fill out a slip of paper, with your name & address, phone number and Faith. 2 Weeks to 2 months later you would be contacted by a "Catholic" Church in your area![/b]

[b]What do Catholics believe? That the sacraments save them!!:

[url=http://www.historicalchristian.com/my_weblog/the-catholic-gospel-what-is-it-really.html]Historical Catholic Gospel[/url]

This is from the Catholic website above:

Background

What is the Catholic gospel? Did you know that it is not the same as the Protestant gospel, that there are key – and profound – differences, and that the Catholic gospel is the authentic gospel? If someone were to ask you, could you explain it to them? Could you explain the differences?

In part, it is the difference between imputed and infused grace, between sanctifying and fully sacramental grace, between simply believing in Jesus to go to heaven, and truly becoming the dwelling place of God, here and now, during this life, through union with Christ in the sacraments.

However, this is what is required to be Christian:

Romans 10:9 " 9. [b] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.10. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

So, Catholoc Doctrine is at odds with God's Word, the Bible, and has no "saving" knowledge
or practice to allow sinners to be saved.

Neil, at first I thought you posted this to bring up dialogue against Phelps, but actually you brought it up to slay the messenger (Phelps) instead of looking at what he had to say and comparing it with the Bible.

Phelps is "right on" as far as Billy Graham is concerned. Anyone who waters down the Gospel of Jesus Christ, or changes it will be spewed out of His mouth.

Is he right on Jerry Falwell? Look into that and post it for us. Compare Falwells' views with the accusations of Phelps. Is he right or wrong. Did Falwell water down God's Word, or did he stay true to it?[/b]

Sincerely,

Walter

Natan4Jesus wrote:
[b]Falwell[/b] isn't getting off the hook either according to Fred Phelps, or should I say "Fraudwell" as Phelps calls him.

In October we sent out the article from Volume 12 Issue 9 on Jerry Falwell supporting Billy Graham

not to worry, not to worry at all, Phelps is on the job as watchman, and I hope your not calling Phelps an "ass", as Phelps says that anyone opposing him OR the Westboro Baptist Church is committing the unpardonable sin of blasphmey of the Holy Ghost.

Phelps prounounces judgement on Jerry Falwell:

[url=http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8682089528957352638]Jerry Falwell Splits Hell Wide Open![/url]

sincerely, neil

and yes, and just so you dont think Phelps is slacking off he also cast Jerry Ford and Saddam Hussein into hell.

[url=http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1987131553894867469]Ford and Hussein BOTH in Hell[/url][/quote

Mike writes.....

"We will know them NOT by their willingness to preach righteousness, holiness, hell, judgment, etc. but by their fruits. Do men gather grapes among prickly stabbing thorns?

We must know that the wrath of man does not work the righteousness of God. The FIRE of anger is not the FIRE of the Holy Spirit. When one cannot discern the difference between anger and unction there is a move into the earthy, sensual and demonic. It seems to me to be the fire of hell that is being used to PREACH hell. Beloved, this ought not so to be."

Amen brother.............Frank

[b]of course[/b] I read your posts, very word. If I profess I that I love you in Christ, why would I not walk out that love, by respecting you, by reading the words you write to me, the time you have taken?

and I have no judgement on Billy Graham one way or the other. Thats not even why I posted up Fred Phelps, to argue or dispute the ministry of Billy Graham, which has little to no impact on my faith walk.

As far as "slaying" Fred Phelps, brother Walt, that man is doing quite fine in slaying his own witness. I'm sure the Phelps family thinks that the reason they receive such scorn and persecution is that they [b]perceive[/b] they are doing the Lord's work, which most assuredly they are not, as there is a tremendous anti-christ spirit about them, a spirit of fleshly anger, and coarse talk, vituperativeness hurled out at any and all, including the Body of Christ.

How do I know they demonstrate this spirit of anti-christ? Watch Fred Phelps speak? Do you see the Holy Spirit within him, the love of souls, love of the lost, jealous and zealous for souls?

No, you do not, instead one sees a spirit of gloating over the death and destruction of the lost, you see anger, and yes, you see hatred, raw and naked, and this is not of Messiah, therefore it is [b]anti[/b]-Messiah.

Look at their posters, what word do you repeatedly see? "Hate" "Hate" "Hate" "Hate", and yet they fancy themselves as "warning" people, which is how they self-justify their "ministry" of anti-christ.

I never thought you would respond in such a way, otherwise I NEVER would have put that video of Fred up, in fact, now I am regretting it, because it impelled you into turning this into a thread about Billy Graham, and I understand fully the Godly disappointment you must feel, as this was once an evangelist you admired, and now are grieved by his witness, and that just makes me feel horrible that I should stir up such bad taste in your mouth. I'm not kidding you.

Believe it or not, I prayed for the Phelps family this morning, that God turns their hearts of stone into hearts of Christly love, zealous for souls. I prayed for them. and as far as "silencing" their message...me? I silence no mans message, as God speaks to each one of us, and emboldens us via His Spirit to obey His Call on each of our lives. and believe me, they have quite an in house team of family lawyers that avail themselves of civil rights monies to defend their 1st amendment rights, and they frequently bring lawsuits against both secular and church bodies who attempt to prohibit or to torque back their "demonstrations"....and when this happens, many times, rather than be involved in contorted legal maneuverings, the objects of their legal venom will "settle" for smaller amounts, this is how they are able to continue to buy the plane tickets they need, to travel cross country to "picket" at soliders funerals.

A disturbing trend has begun to develop in the Westboro method, and it is this, since the sting of celebrating the death of soliders has become "old news", they have now begun a campaign of picketing synagogues and Jewish organizations throughout America, wiping up a campaign of hate with signs such as "Jews killed Jesus, God hates Jews", as they know this will whip up a hornets nest of contention, and thus media coverage, because this "witness" will bring about it charges of anti-semitism.

Walter, I understand the Godly grief you feel about Billy Graham, but recognize that this "messenger" Phelps is not about preaching Christ and Him Crucified, and the wonderous Provisions inherent in the Blood, but Phelps is intent on satiating his own fleshly anger and lust for notice and negative publicity.

In Jesus' love, neil