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Why are Young People Leaving the Church?

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This is a great article, found on Worldnetdaily:

TESTING THE FAITH

Why are young people leaving the church?
Groundbreaking study says Sunday School makes exit more likely

[url=http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=100324]Why are young people leaving the Church? Does Sunday School have anything to do with it?[/url]
________________________________________
Posted: June 14, 2009
10:11 pm Eastern

© 2009 WorldNetDaily

What does the age of the Earth have to do with the exodus of young people from American churches?

Ken Ham, known for his Answers in Genesis creation-science ministry, says a major study he commissioned by a respected researcher unveils for the first time in a scientific fashion the startling reasons behind statistics
that show two-thirds of young people in evangelical churches will leave when they move into their 20s.

The study, highlighted in Ham's new book with researcher Britt Beemer, "Already Gone: Why your kids will quit church and what you can do to stop it," finds church youth already are "lost" in their hearts and minds in elementary, middle and high school – not in college as many assume.
"A lot of the research already done has been to find out how many believe, how many support abortion, believe in the resurrection, say they're born again," Ham told WND. "But nobody has really ever delved into why two-thirds of young people will walk away from the church."
Get "Already Gone: Why your kids will quit church and what you can do to stop it"

The first-of-its-kind study by Beemer – a former senior research analyst for the Heritage Foundation and founder in 1979 of the American Research Group – included 20,000 phone calls and detailed surveys of 1,000 20 to 29 year olds who used to attend evangelical churches on a regular basis.

The survey found, much to Ham's surprise, a "Sunday School syndrome," indicating children who faithfully attend Bible classes in their church over the years actually are more likely to question the authority of Scripture.
"This is a brutal wake-up call for the church, showing how our programs and our approaches to Christian education are failing dismally," Ham writes in the book.

Among the survey findings, regular participants
in Sunday School are more likely to:
•\tLeave the church
•\tBelieve that the Bible is less true
•\tDefend the legality of abortion and same-sex marriage
•\tDefend premarital sex

The book explores a number of reasons for the findings, but Ham sees one overarching problem that is related to how churches and parents have taught youth to understand the Genesis account of creation.

Ham – who believes in a literal six-day creation that happened 6,000 to 10,000 years ago – says the church opened a door for the exodus of youth, beginning in the 19th Century, when it began teaching that "the age of the Earth is not an issue as long as you trust in Jesus and believe in the resurrection and the Gospel accounts."

Ken Ham
"What you see in the Bible is that when there is compromise in one generation, and it's not dealt with, you usually notice it to a greater extent in the next generation," Ham told WND.

In previous generations, young people could live with this inconsistency, he said, but with an increasingly secular and atheistic public education system – where some 90 percent of church-going youth are trained – today's youth find it hard to see a connection between what they are taught in church and what they learn at school.

"Because of the way in which they've been educated," Ham said, teens come to believe "that what they are taught in school is reality, but the church teaches stories and morality and relationship. Bible teaching is not real in the sense of real history."

Now, as parents or leaders tell youth they can "continue to believe in evolution, millions of years," Ham said, young people are starting to see, 'Well, I can then believe what I'm taught at school – but school has nothing to do with God.'"

The key issue is that this doubt about the Bible's account of origins causes youth to doubt the authority of Scripture, he said.
"Salvation is not conditioned on what you believe about the age of the Earth and the six days of creation," Ham said. "There are many who believe in millions of years and are Christians."

But the Genesis issue does matter, he contends, "because salvation does rise or fall on the authority of Scripture. The message of the Gospel comes from these words of Scripture."
When that Bible is undermined, he explained, everything it teaches is in doubt.
Ham's new book shows how young people can be given "answers to help them understand you can really believe God's word, that it "connects to reality and it's really a book of history."
Helping young people makes sense of reports such as the claim last month of the discovery of a "missing link" proving Darwin's theory of evolution is Ham's specialty.
In a May 19 interview with WND, he pointed to a line in the scientific report about the discovery that countered the researchers' bold claims to media.

The fossil's species "could represent a stem group from which later anthropoid primates evolved [the line leading to humans]," states the report, published in the online journal Public Library of Science, "but we are not advocating this here."

The London Guardian newspaper also reported that scientific reviewers of the research asked that others "tone down" claims that the fossil was on the human evolutionary line.

"The reviewers said we don't know this is a missing link, and they asked the people who wrote [the newspaper reports] to tone it down," Ham told WND, "and yet we have this media hype claiming this is it, this is the missing link."

Sincerely,

Walter

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According to 1 John they have gone out from us because they were never of us. In other words, they were never truly saved, because if they were they would not leave.

Period.

Ken Hamm is correct in much of his assessment.

Krispy

J
JoanM

Perhaps this belongs on the VBS thread.

Read your article. Guess we know on this site why Genesis is not taught as truth, why the Word of God is not revealed as Truth to those that teach. Even without revelation, how many that go to church even know what is now “worldly evidence”. I agree that information would be helpful, defensively for youth.

How often is Sunday School taught like schools in the kingdom of this world to adults as well as children. Huddled around second and third hand books of report, no wonder it becomes human wisdom and reports that quickly slip into “learning the right answer” and then/or into “hear-say” in the minds of those that attend. I know, I know, you can only give what you have received. And surely some of the problem lies there. But not all. There are real Christians with a burden and yes even a calling to introduce and encourage children in the faith.

Look what we do. Churches actually spend buckets of money on purchasing materials as though the teachers had no living relationship with the Word of God to share. How the Spirit of the Living God is quenched. (“Truth without Spirit and you dry up”) Teachers struggle to obediently bring to life the purchased material often comforted with thoughts that after all God .... and among those that “make decisions for Christ” there are those that God reveals Himself to. And seeds ARE sown ..... Given the state of the church today is it any wonder that Sunday school can be an inoculation against the Word of God?

I am reminded of a quote from Robert Wurtz : “Short on friends, short on books, no praise and worship music: What was the secret of Paul's victory?" Applying this to the subject at hand: How ever did D. L. Moody manage?

Guess I have opinions about children no longer being in the church services. The why of it.

I just had a wonderful mental picture probably from some history I read. A street-preacher kinda guy in the grass-less playground of a low-income housing area, on Sunday morning having Sunday school out of the back of a pick-up truck. Sunday school on the street.

Best to stop this post on a not so grumpy note. Though your article has merit it falls short of the root. An Elder might use it in identifying SS teachers needing growth in his fellowship.

F
fuehrerbe21

This is further evidence for some of what I was saying in the VBS thread.

I agree with what Ken Hamm said regarding Genesis and the integrity of scripture. Parents need to educate themselves and then their children to understand the truth of God's word and the perversions of man.

Romans 1:22-23: "Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things."

Like Krispy said: "See 1 John"

L
Lysa

KrispyKrittr wrote:
According to 1 John they have gone out from us because they were never of us. In other words, they were never truly saved, because if they were they would not leave.

Period.


I hope your children will never depart but is this what you would say if any of these young people were "YOUR" child or children?

It seems that your reply is just cold-hearted, brother; especially those who will be reading this that have children who have departed (for what ever reason).

Jesus said, if they depart, they will return and He did not say how much time and space there would be in between departing and returning.

L
Lysa

Ken Ham's article:
today's youth find it hard to see a connection between what they are taught in church and what they learn at school.

I disagree, this seems to be a ploy to push homeschooling (not that I have anything against homeschooling!). I know children who have been through the public schools and they love Jesus. IMHO, today's youth find it hard to see a connection between what they are taught in church and what they see in their home and they are disenchanted.

Ken Ham's article:
finds church youth already are "lost" in their hearts and minds in elementary, middle and high school – not in college as many assume.

I see a total disenchantment with "church" as it is always done. They are looking for the real Jesus to please stand up and they can't find Him. Bet you me, when they find Him or He finds them, they will make us look backslidden! I truly believe that!

I truly do not know why all young people are leaving the church but I know it's not all wrapped up in Ken Ham's explanation.

He cannot explain his theory at all to suit me. Years ago, I heard him try to argue with Dr. Hugh Ross, the christian astrophysicist (who wouldn't argue) and Ken Ham lost miserably. I have given my sons Dr Hugh Ross's books to read and they understand him and can relate. When I used to listen to Ham, it was like, "it's my way or the highway." That was the attitude I got. Granted, I quit listening to Ham 10 - 15 years ago, so he might've changed.

I do know that young people want to be able to dialog and have their questions respected AND get a straight answer! They are smart enough to know when people (Christians, pastors, elders) are jerking them around with an answer. If they don't understand the answer they've gotten, they want to be able to ask again without being berated for "not believing."

There are probably TONS of reasons for why they are leaving if we'd just ask them why and then listen.

Dr. Hugh Ross's website:
[url=http://www.reasons.org/]Reasons to Believe [/url]

M
Miccah

Maybe they departed from the "church" because "the church" has become so seeker sensative, has no backbone, is affraid of speaking truth, etc... that the children have found out that what they thought to be church, is in all actuality, a lie.


On a different note... Lysa, if I may...

Regardless of whose child this is, some will depart, because they were never from us. John 1 IS scripture. So to say that it sounds cold-hearted of Krispy to mention this, is to say that the Lord is cold-hearted for allowing this.

Let us raise our children to be warriors of the Lords, and allow them to be a light in the midst of darkness.

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sermonindex


To Lysa:

As Christians, we have the Bible that is the very Word of God. This Bible, this Word, tells us of His creation- God, who spoke everything into existence out of nothing, and rested on the 6th day.

By picking and choosing what is believable, and what is not believable, why even use the Bible?

It is either God's Word, or it is not. That is the key.

By turning away from God's Word, and embracing the ideas of a compromised "christian", Hugh Ross (who I have met personally), you are rejecting the only eye witness account there is about creation, and are rejecting the very Word of God, that is so far above the creature (that's us, that is Hugh Ross!).

[b]In the schools today, they are teaching evolution. If our Christian Children are not prepared to defend creation, then we must be prepared to loose them to the world, to loose them to Satan.[/b]


Exposé of The Genesis Question*

[url=http://creation.com/expose-of-the-genesis-question]Expose of the Genesis Question[/url]

Serious biblical and scientific errors deceive evangelicals

by Dr Jonathan Sarfati

Introduction
The astronomer Hugh N. Ross now seems to be the world’s most prominent ‘progressive creationist’ (PC). While he is insistent about distinguishing himself from ‘theistic evolutionists’ (TEs), Ross adopts the same basic philosophical approach. That is, he makes uniformitarian (i.e. essentially materialistic, billions of years, etc.) ‘science’ his authority over Scripture.

This means that he must try to fit billions of years into Scripture, with corollaries of a local flood and pre-Adamite soulless man-like creatures, and death of nephesh animals before sin. The only real difference between the two positions is that PCs deny transformism, the changing of one kind into another. Amazingly, Ross claims that his approach is ‘a literal reading of the Genesis creation chapters’ (p. 86). This is surely a very non-literal usage of the word ‘literal’!

Ross’s popularity in evangelical Christendom is based on several factors:

His books are published by the once-biblical NavPress, the publishing arm of the Navigators.

Ross name-drops a number of Christian leaders who appear not to realise that Ross’s departure from Scripture involves far more than the age of the earth.

Ross gives the impression that his books will help Christians defend their faith in a scientific age.

It’s clear that for the last few years, NavPress has opposed straightforward biblical creation. In this recent Ross book [see also our introductory chapter critique of Ross’ June 2004 book release A Matter of Days: Resolving a Creation Controversy], NavPress appears to have even resorted to somewhat misleading marketing tactics, i.e. the dust-jacket has some ‘praise’ from allegedly prominent authors, one of whom is:

SAMUEL CONNER, PH.D.
candidate in physics at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology

Formatted as above (starting a new line and changing the font style from small capitals to italics after ‘Ph.D.’), this gives the first impression to a skimming reader that Conner has a Ph.D., because only after careful inspection is it clear that he is a Ph.D. candidate, i.e. not actually qualified.

The canonisation of ‘nature’
The worst part of Ross’s teaching is the gross liberties he takes with the scriptural text. He does this to fit the canonical 66 books into what he calls the ‘67th book’, nature.1 What he means by ‘nature’ is the uniformitarian interpretation of nature. However, the creation is cursed (Genesis 3:17–19, Romans 8:20–22) and man’s heart is deceitful (Jeremiah 17:9) and the thinking of a godless man is ‘futile’ (Romans 1:21), while Scripture itself is ‘God-breathed’ (2 Timothy 3:15–17). So a biblical Christian should not reinterpret the perfect, unfallen Word of God according to fallible theories of sinful humans about a world we know to be cursed (Genesis 3:17–19, Romans 8:20–22).

Ross’s heterodox canonisation of nature has been thoroughly rebutted by Van Bebber and Taylor.2 Their book, Creation and Time: A report on the Progressive Creationist book by Hugh Ross, is valuable reading for defenders of the biblical worldview, as it answers point-by-point Ross’s earlier theological and historical errors.1 However, The Genesis Question repeats many of the same errors.

Ignorance of Hebrew
Ross routinely gives audiences the impression of being very familiar with Hebrew. However, in a meeting with Dr Ross on 12 April 1999, Dr Russell Humphreys asked Ross in Hebrew: ‘Do you speak Hebrew?’ and Ross was clearly uncomprehending. Humphreys then said (in English): ‘You must respond in Hebrew’, to which Ross admitted his inability by responding (also in English) ‘I can’t.’ Humphreys hastens to add that he himself is not expert in Hebrew, and nor am I, but we at least know enough to understand the question and to reply using the Hebrew word for ‘no’.
Ross’s ignorance of Hebrew shows when he tries to discredit the common creationist identification of behemoth in Job 40:15–24 with a sauropod [see Could Behemoth have been a dinosaur?], because he believes the dinosaurs became extinct 65 million years ago. Ross writes (p. 48): ‘The Hebrew word for “behemoth” appears in its plural form, behema, …’ However, even beginners in Hebrew know that –a is often a feminine singular and –oth is a feminine plural. So Ross got it back-to-front: behema is the singular form, while behemoth is grammatically plural. It is a figure of speech known as an intensive plural or plural of majesty, where ‘the referent is a singular individual, which is, however, so thoroughly characterized by the qualities of the noun that a plural is used’,3 ‘beast of beasts’. The context says that behemoth is the largest beast God made. And Job 40:17 says: ‘His tail sways like a cedar’ which certainly doesn’t fit Ross’s suggestion of a hippopotamus (unless it was a bonsai cedar, maybe).

Fanciful eisegesis4
One of Ross’s major aims is to show that Genesis can be fitted into uniformitarian astronomy and paleontology. To avoid the plain teaching of Genesis—that land dinosaurs were created with man and after whales—Ross also claims (pp. 52–53):

‘The list [of creatures created on Day 6] does not purport to include all the land mammals God made. … Though remes refers occasionally in Hebrew literature to reptiles, the opening phrase of Genesis 1:25 makes it clear that these are mammals. … Both behema and chayyāh refer to long-legged land quadrupeds. The former group encompasses those that easily can be tamed or domesticated for agricultural purposes, and the latter, those that are difficult to tame but have the potential to become excellent pets. Remes refers to short-legged land mammals, such as rodents, hares, and armadillos.’

However, this is typical of Ross’s imaginative eisegesis. Genesis 1:25 teaches nothing so restrictive. And his analysis of Hebrew terms has no basis—Ross’s own source, the Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (TWOT),5 doesn’t support him. Chayyāh is simply a generic word for a living creature although it can often refer to wild animals (TWOT 1:281)—the phrase נֶפֶשׁ חַיָּה (nephesh chayyāh) is used of sea creatures in Genesis 1:20, and of man in Genesis 2:7. Behema refers to both wild beast and domesticated animal (TWOT 1:92). Remes describes small creeping animals ‘especially reptiles’ (TWOT 2:850). The TWOT shows that Ross is ‘over-defining’ these terms.

Van Bebber and Taylor6 pointed out the same errors in Ross’s earlier book,1 and it’s tiresome to see Ross repeating discredited nonsensical arguments time after time.

Note that even if we grant Ross’s contention that remes means ‘short-legged land mammals’, it still doesn’t match the uniformitarian order in the fossil record. Such creatures are alleged to have appeared millions of years before whales, which Ross identifies as created on the millions-of-years-long ‘Day 5’. And mesonychids, the alleged predecessors of whales, were certainly ‘long-legged mammalian quadrupeds’, so would fit even Ross’s descriptions of Day 6 creatures.

Those who promote Ross’s material as sound science should thus think again. It is doubtful that secular people will be impressed by Ross’s claim that the order of Genesis matches ‘science’. When they point out exceptions, Ross redefines terms so that Day 6 doesn’t really refer to any creature that appeared before whales. And when all else fails, he claims that the ‘days’ overlapped.7

Insightful exegesis or delusions of grandeur?
One key point about Ross’s ‘harmony’ of Genesis with billions of years is to claim that Genesis 1:2 ff. is written from the viewpoint of an observer at the earth’s surface. He claims (p. 21):

‘The frame of reference, or point of view, for the creation account suddenly shifts in Genesis 1:2, from the heavenlies that make up the entire physical universe to the surface of planet Earth. For whatever reason, perhaps because it comes so abruptly, most readers—even scholarly commentators—miss the shift. I am convinced that my absorption in science prepared me to see it.’

So Ross, despite a demonstrable ignorance of even the most basic Hebrew and an inability to use Hebrew lexicons correctly, discovers amazing insights, thanks to ‘science’. This claim by Ross, like so many others, is a denial of the perspicuity of Scripture. I.e. God’s people were left entirely in the dark about Genesis until modern uniformitarian theories were invented—mainly by bibliosceptics.

More likely, this alleged frame shift has been missed because it is not in the text! The real frame-shift to the Earth is very clear in the Hebrew, and occurs in Genesis 2:4, not Genesis 1:2. Genesis 1:1–2:3 is a summarised account of the whole creation, while Genesis 2:4 ff. focuses on the creation of mankind (in chapters 7 and 10, Ross rightly rejects higher critical theories that claim that Genesis 1 and 2 are contradictory creation accounts). This shift is clear from the boundary marking phrase ‘These are the generations (toledoth) of the heavens and of the earth’, or better, ‘This is the account …’.8 Also, in Genesis 2:4, the order ‘heaven and earth’ changes to ‘earth and heaven’, alerting the reader to focus on the earth.9

Ross applies this alleged Genesis 1:2 frame shift to assert that what really happened on the fourth ‘day’ was that the sun and other heavenly bodies ‘appeared’ when a dense cloud layer dissipated after millions of years.

Disks around stars, by an amazing leap in logic, supposedly show that all planets, including the Earth, started with opaque atmospheres of hydrogen, helium, methane and ammonia (p. 26). But it would not take a very sophisticated knowledge of science to know that hydrogen couldn’t be held by earth’s gravity, and methane and ammonia would be photolysed quickly. These gases are transparent, incidentally.

Ross’s ideas are not only fanciful science, but bad exegesis of Hebrew. The Hebrew word ‘asah means ‘make’ throughout Genesis 1, and may be used interchangeably with ‘create’ (bara’), e.g. in Genesis 1:26–27. It is pure desperation to apply a different meaning to the same word in the same grammatical construction in the same passage, just to fit in with atheistic evolutionary ideas. If God had meant ‘appeared’, then He would have used the Hebrew word for appear (ra’ah), as when the dry land ‘appeared’ as the waters gathered in one place on Day 3 (Genesis 1:9). This is supported by Hebrew scholars who have translated the Bible into English. Over 20 major translations were checked, and all clearly teach that the sun, moon and stars were made on the fourth day.

(See also How could the days of Genesis 1 be literal if the Sun wasn’t created until the fourth day?)

Days of creation
To justify his interpretation of the six creation days of Genesis 1 as millions of years long, Ross writes (p. 65):


‘In English, the word day enjoys flexible usage. We refer to the day of the dinosaurs and the day of the Romans, and no-one misunderstands our meaning. But we recognize this usage as figurative, acknowledging just two literal definitions: a twenty-four hour period, from midnight to midnight, and the daylight hours (roughly twelve, but varying from one latitude and season to another).’

Because ‘day’ (Hebrew yôm) in some contexts can have a non-literal meaning, Ross feels justified in assuming that a non-literal meaning is acceptable in the particular context of Genesis 1. But such an interpretation shows that he could benefit from elementary training in exegesis, e.g. the book Exegetical Fallacies10 by the evangelical New Testament scholar Dr Don Carson. Ross commits a classic case of a fallacy that Carson called
‘Unwarranted adoption of an expanded semantic field. The fallacy in this instance lies in the supposition that the meaning of the word in a specific context is much broader than the context itself allows and may bring with it the word’s entire semantic range.’

Ross’s fallacy can be illustrated by the following sentence that has several uses of the word ‘day’.

‘In my father’s day, he would go to bed early Sunday evening and rise early in the morning of the following day, and spend the next six days travelling, during the day, to cross the whole country.’

Of course ‘my father’s day’ is an indefinite period of time. But this doesn’t mean that it’s legitimate to interpret the ‘six days travelling’ as anything but ordinary days. And the combination of evening and the next morning are another way of showing that his bedtime was contained in one ordinary day, not an indefinite time period.

Genesis 1 modifies the creation days with both ‘evening and morning’ and a number, almost as if God was trying to make it as obvious as possible that they were ordinary days. Exodus 20:8–11 reinforces the point that the six days of creation followed by a day of ‘rest’ were the basis for the Israelites’ six-day week and seventh day Sabbath. The phrase ‘during the day’ is also obviously the daylight hours, as per Genesis 1:5.

Ross also claims (p. 65): ‘In biblical Hebrew, no other word besides yôm carries the meaning of a long period of time’ and cites his own book1 and TWOT.5 Again, Van Bebber and Taylor pointed out11 that Ross’s own source contradicts him, stating that the Hebrew olam and its Greek equivalent aion (from which we derive the word ‘eon’) often means ‘long age’.12 There were plenty of other words that God could have used if He had wanted to teach long periods of time.13,14 God could also have used phrases like ‘x myriad myriad years ago’ to teach ages of hundreds of millions of years. For a less precise indication of vast ages, God could have compared the years to the number of sand grains or stars. Yet God did not use any of these—rather, He emphasized literal days.

Does the seventh day continue?
Ross claims on p. 64:

‘Each of the six creation days closes with the refrain: “There was evening, and there was morning,” then the day’s number. The statement suggests that each day had a start time … and an end time. However, the refrain is not attached to the seventh day. Its closure is missing.

‘… its absence from the account of the seventh day can be taken as a meaningful hint: the day has not ended.’

From this, Ross has concluded that the other creation days could be long ages. However, the systematic theologian, Dr Douglas Kelly, responded to the same argument from Ross1 in his book Creation and Change as follows:

‘To say the least, this places a great deal of theological weight on a very narrow and thin exegetical bridge! Is it not more concordant with the patent sense of the context of Genesis 2 (and Exodus 20) to infer that because the Sabbath differed in quality (though not—from anything we can learn out of the text itself—in quantity), a slightly different concluding formula was appended to indicate a qualitative difference (six days involved work; one day involved rest)? The formula employed to show the termination of that first sabbath : “And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had made; and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had made” (Genesis 2:2) seems just as definite as that of “and the evening and the morning were the first day”.’ 15

Ross also argues that Hebrews 4:1–11 teaches ‘that the seventh creation day began after the creation of Adam and Eve, continues through the present, and extends into the future.’ However, again Ross repeats an argument rebutted by Van Bebber and Taylor.16 Hebrews never says that the seventh day of creation is continuing to the present; it merely says that God’s rest is continuing. If someone says on Monday that he rested on Saturday and is still resting, it in no way implies that Saturday lasted until Monday.17 Kulikovsky carefully analyses the grammar of Hebrews 4 and concludes:

‘The “rest” of Hebrews 4 clearly refers to the Kingdom of God … Nowhere in the text is it equated with the seventh day of creation, nor is there any grammatical or contextual data suggesting any such equation.’18

The history of mankind
A straightforward reading of the biblical genealogies according to the reliable Masoretic text19 shows that Adam was created about 4000 BC, and this was on Day 6 of creation.20 And Jesus said: ‘But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female’ (Mark 10:6), not billions of years later. But Ross dates Adam at about 35,000–47,000 BC, based on secular chromosome research (p. 111), i.e. almost at the end of billions-of-years old creation.

Since he also accepts the ‘earlier’ evolutionary ‘dates’ for other hominids, Ross concludes that they have no relationship to man, although they buried their dead, made tools and musical instruments, painted pictures, etc.

Biblical genealogies
Ross (pp. 108–110) points to some biblical genealogies that have gaps to claim that the Genesis 5 and 11 genealogies are largely incomplete. He also claims (p. 109):
‘The words translated in to English say this: “When X had lived Y years, he became the father of Z.” Someone reading the same passage in Hebrew would see a second possibility: “When X had lived Y years, he became the father of a family line that included or culminated in Z.”’
However, none of Ross’s examples of gaps in genealogies (Matthew 1:8–9 vs 1 Chronicles 3:10–12) mention the age of the father at the birth of the next name in the line, so are irrelevant.
Ross also points out that father can mean grandfather or ancestor, while son can mean grandson or descendant. But Ross again errs by unwarranted expansion of an expanded semantic field.10 The Genesis 5 and 11 genealogies say that X ‘begat sons and daughters’ implying that Z is likewise a son of X in this specific context.

And even if we grant that Z is a descendant of X, Z is always preceded by the accusative particle ’et, which is not translated but marks Z as the direct object of the verb ‘begat’ (wayyoled). This means that the begetting of Z by X still occurred when X was Y years old, regardless of whether Z was a son or a more distant descendant. The Hebrew grammar provides further support—wayyoled is the hiphil waw-consecutive imperfect form of the Hebrew verb yalad. The waw-consecutive is the typical Hebrew way to indicate a sequence of events (see Doug Kelly interview), and the hiphil stem communicates the subject participating in action that causes an event, e.g. Seth as the begetter of Enosh. No wonder the Jewish historian Flavius Josephus (AD 37/38–c. 100) saw no gaps in the genealogy.21,22

James Barr, then Regius Professor of Hebrew at Oxford University, wrote in 1984:

‘… probably, so far as I know, there is no professor of Hebrew or Old Testament at any world-class university who does not believe that the writer(s) of Genesis 1–11 intended to convey to their readers the ideas that: … the figures contained in the Genesis genealogies provided by simple addition a chronology from the beginning of the world up to later stages in the biblical story.’23

Barr, consistent with his neo-orthodox views, does not believe Genesis, but he understood what the Hebrew so clearly taught. It was only the perceived need to harmonise with the alleged age of the earth which led people to think anything different—it was nothing to do with the text itself.

Ross also points out that Luke 3:36 has the extra name Cainan. But this is spurious, because this name was probably not in the original autograph, but inserted later,24 certainly after the time of Josephus.25,26

Secular history
Ross also uncritically claims that missionaries teaching a literal Genesis were discredited by:

‘Chinese historical accounts placing Chinese national origins earlier than 4004 BC. … The same reaction comes today from … Australian Aborigines, who date back to 25,000 BC …. All are firmly established dates.’ (p. 108).

However, the Encyclopædia Britannica says on China: ‘The first dynasty for which there is definite historical material is the Shang, or Yin (18th–12th BC).’27 The Australian Aborigines were an oral culture, without writing, so their ‘dates’ are not based on historical records but on ‘dating methods’. However, some of these claim that Aborigines existed before even Ross’s ‘date’ for Adam—what will happen to his apologetics if such dates become widely accepted?

Floundering on the Flood
Some Ross supporters like Dr James Dobson, of Focus on the Family, evidently believe the overwhelming biblical evidence for a global flood, but fail to see the inconsistency of this position with billions of years. A global flood would have laid down a vast thickness of fossil-bearing sedimentary rock in a year, which would nullify much geological ‘evidence’ for billions of years. Conversely, accepting that the fossil record was formed over billions of years eliminates any evidence for the Flood. Ross is more consistent, and believes the Flood was restricted to Mesopotamia.

Local flood arguments
Ross points out that there are passages where ‘all the earth’ and ‘whole world’ are used in a non-global way. Again, Ross is guilty of unwarranted expansion of an expanded semantic field.10 In the Flood account, the frequency of the Hebrew word kol (all, every) indicates that God is going out of his way to emphasize the universality of the Flood.28 Genesis 7, NIV, reads:

19 ‘They rose greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered. …

21 Every living thing that moved on the earth perished—birds, livestock, wild animals, all the creatures that swarm over the earth, and all mankind.

22 Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died.

23 Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out; men and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds of the air were wiped from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark.’

A question could be asked of Ross: ‘Just suppose, for the sake of the argument, that God had wanted to teach a global flood—how could He have said it more clearly than in Genesis 7?’

Too little room for the animals?
Ross caricatures belief in a global flood, parroting discredited sceptical/atheistic arguments against the Ark. Ross ignores key books like John Woodmorappe’s Noah’s Ark—a Feasibility Study,29 which answers nearly all his objections.

Kinds and species
Creationists, arguing from the text of Genesis, believe that Noah took two of every kind of land vertebrate animal. Ross distorts this into a claim that creationists believe two of ‘every single species’ had to go on board. He also claims that the fossil record documents that ‘half a billion to a billion new species of life arose between the Cambrian explosion … and the arrival of human beings’ (p. 150). But the number of actually catalogued fossil species is only about 200,000, about 95% of which were marine invertebrates which Noah was not required to take on board anyway. The ‘billion’ is probably estimated from the transitional forms needed if neo-Darwinism were true, and even then is a huge exaggeration. And it’s likely that many so-called fossil species and even genera within a family were merely varieties of a single polytypic ‘biological species’. This is true today, as shown by many cases of hybridization between members of different ‘genera’.30

Ross regurgitates the sceptical nonsense that it was impossible to derive all current species from the relatively few kinds on board the Ark, unless super-rapid evolution occurred. Ross effectively believes in fixity of species, in ignorance of proven speciation within a kind.31 Sceptics would thus find him an easy target.

However, not all change is evolution, in the sense of molecules-to-man, which requires an increase of genetic information, just as not all monetary transactions are automatically profitable ones. Many varieties can arise rapidly from an initial population with large genetic variety. If this population splits into isolated small populations, each subgroup may carry a fraction of the total genetic information. Later information-losing mutations, e.g. in proteins recognizing ‘imprinting’ marks,32,33 can result in reproductive isolation, thus a separate ‘biological species’.

Rapid production of ‘varieties’ can be shown in humans: it is well known that a marriage between two mulattos (people with one black and one white parent each) can produce children with a large variety of skin colors. Of course it couldn’t happen quickly by evolutionary means, because they must rely on random mutations to generate new genes, and slow substitution over many generations to establish them in the population.34

This is why both Eskimos and native equatorial south Americans have mid-brown skins and haven’t developed very white or very dark skins—the relevant information is simply not present. Such ‘people groups’ today are highly specialised, with less genetic variation than mulattos (and Adam and Eve), which is why they produce offspring of limited variety.

Because of Ross’s lack of knowledge of genetics, he postulates direct divine intervention at Babel to introduce ‘racial’ traits into separate populations (pp. 177–178). The Bible doesn’t even hint at this. Ross admits that it’s a ‘God of the gaps’ explanation, which would be unnecessary if he had read any of our books. Ross says that the different ‘racial’ characteristics were designed to aid man’s dispersal. This is disturbing—although Ross does repudiate racism and sees nothing wrong in ‘interracial’ marriages, this theory almost implies that God designed racial prejudice.

If Ross had read basic creationist books, e.g. Stones and Bones, The Creation Answers Book or What is Creation Science? [or see the internet article How did all the different ‘races’ arise (from Noah’s family)?], he wouldn’t need to resort to such daft explanations, which hardly give the would-be Christian apologist relying on his books any credibility.

‘Fear of the millions’
Ross claims that a main motivation of those opposing billions of years is fear that it would make evolution possible, hence the above subheading on p. 92. As usual, Ross’s claim betrays a willing ignorance of creationist literature as well as ignorance of evolution/variation as shown above. Many years before Ross wrote any of his books, leading creationists like Dr Duane Gish made it very clear that they believed the earth was only thousands of years old, on both biblical and scientific grounds. But Gish also strongly pointed out that evolution would be impossible even if billions of years were granted, e.g.:
‘Therefore, whether the earth is ten thousand, ten million, or ten billion years old, the fossil record does not support the general theory of evolution.’35

‘Considering an enzyme, then, of 100 amino acids, there would be no possibility whatever that a single molecule could have arisen by pure chance on earth in five billion years.’36

The need for the Ark
Why would God have told Noah to build an ocean-liner-sized Ark just to escape a local flood? Noah could easily have migrated. Why bother to take birds, when many can fly hundreds of miles in a day? Ross ‘explains’ (p. 160):

‘First, when God pours out judgment, He gives ample warning ahead of time. He sends a spokesperson, a prophet, and gives that prophet a kind of platform from which to be heard. For the antediluvians, Noah was that prophet and the scaffolding around the Ark was his platform.’

Another Ross flight of fancy—what other prophet needed a ‘platform’, let alone one requiring such a huge expenditure of labour?

‘Straw man’ and ‘guilt by association’ arguments
Ross often misrepresents what creationists believe and have clearly stated. For example (p. 148):

‘Some global flood proponents who acknowledge the problem of a grossly inadequate water supply propose that Earth’s surface was “smoothed,” or flattened, by the Flood, thus reducing the water requirement. More specifically, they claim that during the forty days and nights when the floodwaters rose, Earth’s mountains radically eroded from their lofty heights of ten, fifteen and even twenty thousand feet to just one or two thousand feet, perhaps less.’

This is totally inexcusable, because Ken Ham had responded to a similar Ross misrepresentation (which was even then inexcusable) well before The Genesis Question was published:

‘In my 20 years of involvement in creation ministry, I have never known of any material from any biblical creationists indicating that God “eroded the mountains from a height of 30,000 feet down to sea level during the forty days”! … Biblical creationists believe that most mountains today did not exist before the Flood, but were raised up (and ocean basins sank) towards the end of the Flood, thus causing the water to run off to where it is today.’37

Akin to straw man arguments is guilt by association—Ross complains that a TV documentary about the alleged discovery of the ‘Ark’ gave the sceptics an easy target (pp. 165–167). The obvious implication is that it’s all the fault of global Flood proponents, although the major global Flood organisations have repudiated such claimed discoveries.38 Many creationists even agree with Ross that the Ark is unlikely to be found because its timber would probably have been used for construction, so that is hardly a unique local-floodist insight.

Ross also copies the ploy of the apostate Ron Numbers,39 attributing biblical creationism and flood geology to ‘the visions of an Adventist prophetess [Ellen White]’ via George McCready Price. A number of papers by Dr Terry Mortenson in Journal of Creation show that the early 19th century scriptural geologists presented such ideas well before Price [see The 19th Century Scriptural Geologists, by Dr Terry Mortenson]. Ken Ham pointed out that he had never even heard of Price at the time he founded CSF/AiG, and that he adopted creationism because of the biblical teaching.37 Even if Ross were right about Price, he is wrong to think that discrediting Price is enough to refute creationism—this is a classic case of the genetic fallacy.

With such serious logical fallacies in Ross’s book, it is astonishing that it was endorsed by Christian philosopher J.P. Moreland, who is usually very astute at spotting such fallacies. (Did he actually read it?)

Pitching the Ark?
Ross parrots another discredited argument from atheistic sceptics: that it would be impossible to ‘pitch’ the Ark without millions of years for petroleum products to accumulate (pp. 153–154). This shows that Ross is unwilling to admit to his readers that biblical creationists have already addressed most of his arguments long ago. Dr Tas Walker pointed out 15 years ago that pitch need not be made from petroleum at all—the pitch-making industries in Europe made pitch from pine resin for centuries.40 The Encyclopædia Britannica says about naval pitch: ‘Oleoresin, also called gum or pitch … is extracted from the pine …’41

Too much coal?
Like bibliosceptics, Ross claims that there is too much coal in the earth’s crust to have been formed in the Flood (pp. 151–154). Even worse, as ‘evidence’ he cites some calculations from a Journal of Creation paper, Too much coal for a young earth?42 However, the whole point of this paper was to solve that problem, by showing evidence that much coal had formed from large floating ecosystems comprising arboreal lycopods, which had been catastrophically buried by water. Ross also omitted the question mark when citing the title, thus further conveying to his readers the diametrically opposite meaning to the paper’s intention. Also, John Woodmorappe had shown long ago that vegetation living at the start of the Flood was not the only possible source of carbonaceous material which had eventually transformed into coal. There were about 1656 years between the creation and Flood, enabling much peat to form, which could have been buried by the Flood and easily transformed into coal since.43

Death and the Fall
Since Ross accepts the billions of years, for consistency he must believe that the death, suffering and disease shown by the fossil record occurred well before Adam sinned. Thus Ross denies the biblical teaching that death could not have been part of God’s ‘very good’ creation (Genesis 1:31) because death is ‘the last enemy’ (1 Corinthians 15:26).

Vegetarian diets
Ross agrees that Genesis 1:29 teaches that humans originally had a vegetarian diet, not ‘merely an indication that all food resources derive from plants’ (p.71). But he ‘explains’:

‘Vegetarianism perfectly suits the potential longevity of the first humans. Animal tissue contains between ten and ten thousand times the concentration of heavy elements that plant material contains. This difference sounds drastic, but it poses an insignificant health risk for people living only 120 years (the limit God imposed at the time of the Flood). However, the difference is by no means trivial for people living nearly a thousand years.’

Ross provides no documentation. How could he know what dangers would face long-living people without any to test?! This statement is falsified by the lifespans greatly exceeding 120 years long after people were permitted to eat meat. And his statement is hopelessly imprecise: which plants and animals? Some plants take up heavy elements so readily that they are used to clean up waterways. Soy and tea plants are known to take up aluminium readily. Conversely, many animals can excrete such elements. And accumulation is more of a problem in animals higher in the food chain, e.g. sharks with mercury, as well as filter-feeders. This might be a reason for the Mosaic laws against eating carnivores and shellfish.

Also, Ross undercuts one of his own claims. Ross agrees that Genesis 1:29 teaches original vegetarianism for humans, but then surely by his own reasoning, the next verse must teach original vegetarianism in land animals and birds. But Ross denies this without realising the contradiction, because he believes that carnivore fossils pre-date Adam.

Plant death
Ross points out that plants must have died before the Fall. Again, he persistently misrepresents what creationists actually teach.37 We have never taught that plants or individual cells didn’t die before the Fall, but only nephesh (soul) creatures. It should be obvious from Genesis 1:29–30 that the Bible is clear that plants do not have life in the sense of nephesh, while animals do. [Update: see The Fall: a cosmic catastrophe: Hugh Ross’s blunders on plant death in the Bible]
Biological incompetence
It’s perhaps understandable that Ross, whose major qualifications are in astronomy, would not be an expert on biology. But it’s astounding that a man who specializes in supposedly scientific apologetics, makes fundamental errors with even high-school level genetics. His apparent ignorance of speciation is covered above, but there are other areas where he does not understand basic genetics.
Human longevity
Ross does accept the biblical long lifespans, and rejects any redefinition of the word ‘year’ (a pity he isn’t so careful with the word ‘day’). But in ch. 15, Ross interprets the 120 years of Genesis 6:3 as shortening of human lifespans. This is clearly fallacious because it contradicts other Scriptures showing that people lived for hundreds of years well after the Flood. The best understanding is that the 120 years was the time left for mankind before the Flood would destroy it, with only a remnant surviving on the Ark.
Ross’s explanation for shortening human lifespans is: God supernaturally increased the rate of apoptosis (programmed cell death) to ‘protect’ us from an increasing-with-age risk of cancer in the aftermath of a radiation burst from the Vela supernova. But it’s bizarre to talk about ‘protecting’ people from cancer should they reach 500, 600, even 900, by making sure they become decrepit and die before 120! What next, ‘protecting’ people from Alzheimer’s disease at 80 by causing fatal heart attacks by 60?

A sensible physical explanation for the drop in longevity is loss of ‘longevity genes’ by genetic drift because of the population bottleneck at the Flood, and maybe other post-Babel bottlenecks as well, but Ross’s book ignores creationist literature and evidence from gene studies.44
Cain’s wife
Ross correctly believes that Adam’s sons and daughters must have intermarried, that such close intermarriage happened in Abraham’s time, and that God did not forbid this until Leviticus 18:6–18. But his explanation is garbled (p. 105):

‘Genetic defects as a result of intrafamily marriage develop slowly. They would present no risk until after the first several dozen generations.’

Aside from the inconsistency with his deviant view of hundreds of generations between Adam and Abraham, this misunderstands the problem of close intermarriage. It’s not the intermarriages per se that cause defects. Rather, there is a greater likelihood of inheriting two recessive defective mutant genes in the same locus, which would thus be expressed. Whereas if the parents were more distantly related, the offspring would likely inherit defects in different loci, each paired by a normal allele that would mask the defect. But since Adam and Eve were created with no defective genes, recessive mutations would take many more than ‘several dozen generations’ to accumulate to levels where close intermarriage would be dangerous for the offspring.

See also Cain’s wife—who was she?

Other scientific fallacies
Some of Ross’s arguments are blatantly circular, in effect: ‘Isn’t it amazing how modern uniformitarian science backs up what Genesis says?’ Hardly surprising, because Ross has reinterpreted Genesis to fit in with uniformitarian science!

Ross strongly overstates the case for fine-tuning of the earth and universe. He claims (p. 32) that Earth’s gravity is strong enough to hold lots of water vapour (relative molecular mass (Mr) = 18), ‘but not so high as to keep life threatening quantities of ammonia [Mr = 17] and methane [Mr = 16].’ Not true—earth’s gravity even holds helium (Ar = 4) strongly (incidentally, more helium from α-decay is released into the atmosphere than escapes into space, and the total amount in the atmosphere is evidence that it is less than two million years old45). We are protected from methane and ammonia because they are rapidly destroyed by UV light.

There are many other errors, even in Ross’s own field of astronomy, documented by the astronomy professor Danny Faulkner.46

Conclusion
I haven’t covered all of Ross’s errors in this review (however they are available in my book Refuting Compromise). But there is enough documentation here of his biblical and scientific errors to show that Christians should not promote his books. [See also the June 2004 article Critique of the introductory chapter of Hugh Ross’ new book A Matter of Days: Resolving a Creation Controversy.]

References
1.Ross, H.N., Creation and Time, Navpress, Colorado Springs, p. 56, 1994. Return to text.
2.Van Bebber, M. and Taylor, P.S., Creation and Time: A report on the Progressive Creationist book by Hugh Ross, Eden Productions, Mesa, AZ, 1994. See online chapters. Return to text.
3.Waltke, B.K. and O’Connor, M., An Introduction to Biblical Hebrew Syntax, Eisenbrauns, Winona Lake, IN, p. 122, 1990. Return to text.
4.Exegesis means reading out of the text (i.e. letting the text teach you); eisegesis means reading one’s own ideas into the text. Return to text.
5.Harris, R.L., Archer, G.L. and Waltke, B.K., Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament, Moody Press, Chicago, 1980. Return to text.
6.Van Bebber and Taylor, Ref. 2, pp. 86–91. Return to text.
7.Ross, H., Genesis One: A Scientific Perspective, Wiseman Productions, Sierra Madre, CA, p. 12, 1983. Return to text.
8.Kelly, D.F., Creation and Change: Genesis 1:1–2:4 in the Light of Changing Scientific Paradigms, Mentor (Christian Focus Publications), Ross-shire, UK, ch. 2, 1997. Return to text.
9.Kelly, D.F., lecture at Moore Theological College, Sydney, 7 August 1999. Return to text.
10.Carson, D.A., Exegetical Fallacies, Baker Book House, Grand Rapids, MI, 2nd Ed., p. 60, 1996. Return to text.
11.Van Bebber and Taylor, Ref. 2, pp. 76–77. Return to text.
12.Harris, et al., Ref. 5, 2:673. Return to text.
13.Grigg, R., How long were the days in Genesis 1? What did God intend us to understand from the words He used? Creation 19(1):23–25, 1996. Return to text.
14.Stambaugh, J., The days of Creation: a semantic approach, Journal of Creation 5(1):70–76, 1991. Return to text.
15.Kelly, Ref. 8, p. 111. Return to text.
16.Van Bebber and Taylor, Ref. 2, pp. 69–73. Return to text.
17.Is the seventh day an eternal day?, Creation 21(3):44–45, 1999. Return to text.
18.Kulikovsky, A.S., God’s Rest in Hebrews 4:1–11, Journal of Creation 13(2):61–62, 1999. Return to text.
19.For a defence of the Masoretic text vs the altered Septuagint (LXX), see Williams, P., Some remarks preliminary to a biblical chronology, Journal of Creation 12(1):98–106, 1998. Return to text.
20.Not just Archbishop Ussher, but also Kepler, Luther and Melanchthon, calculated very similar dates. See Young, R., Analytical Concordance to the Holy Bible, 8th Ed., Lutterworth Press, London, p. 210, 1939. Return to text.
21.Josephus, Jewish Antiquities Books I–IV, Harvard Press, Cambridge, MA, 1930, p. 73; Loeb Classical Library No. 242. Return to text.
22.Young, Ref. 20. Josephus calculated the creation date at 5555 BC, because he used mainly the inflated figures of the LXX (5508 or 5586 BC). Return to text.
23.Barr, J., Letter to David C.C. Watson, 1984. Return to text.
24.Sarfati, J.D., Cainan of Luke 3:36, Journal of Creation 12(1):39–40, 1998; see also Cainan: How do you explain the difference between Luke 3:36 and Gen. 11:12? Return to text.
25.Josephus, Ref. 21. Return to text.
26.Pierce, L., Letter to the editor, Journal of Creation 13(2):76, 1999. Return to text.
27.‘China’, Encyclopædia Britannica, 3:230, 15th Ed. 1992. Return to text.
28.Kruger, M., Genesis 6–9: Does ‘all’ always mean all? TJ 10(2):214–218, 1996. Return to text.
29.Woodmorappe, J., Noah’s Ark: a Feasibility Study, Institute for Creation Research, El Cajon, CA, 1996. Return to text.
30.Marsh, F.L., Variation and Fixity in Nature, Pacific Press, Mountain View, CA, 1976. Return to text.
31.Wieland, C., Speciation Conference brings good news for creationists, TJ, 11(2):135–136, 1997. Return to text.
32.Cohen, P., The great divide, New Scientist 160(2164):16, 1998. Return to text.
33.Jerlström, P., Genomic imprinting, Journal of Creation 13(2):6–8, 1999. Return to text.
34.ReMine, W.J., The Biotic Message, St. Paul Science, St. Paul, MN, 1993; see online review. Return to text.
35.Gish, D.T., Evolution: The Fossils Say No! Creation-Life Publishers, San Diego, CA, 2nd ed., p. 43, 1973. This book has been superseded by Evolution: The fossils STILL say NO! Institute for Creation Research, El Cahon, CA, USA, 1995. Return to text.
36.Gish, D.T., The origin of life: theories on the origin of biological order, ICR Impact 37:iii, 1976. Return to text.
37.Ham, K., Demolishing ‘straw men’, Creation 19(4):13–15, 1997. Return to text.
38.Snelling, A.A., Amazing ‘Ark’ exposé, Creation 14(4):26–38, 1992. Return to text.
39.See the review of Numbers’ historically unreliable (perhaps due to his anti-creationist bias) book The Creationists by Andrews, E., Origins (Journal of the British Creation Society) 8(20):21–23, 1995. Return to text.
40.Walker, T., The pitch for Noah’s Ark, Creation 7(1):20, 1984. Return to text.
41.‘Naval stores’, Encyclopædia Britannica, 8:564–565, 15th Ed. 1992; emphasis added. Return to text.
42.Schönknecht, G. and Scherer, S., Too much coal for a young earth? Journal of Creation 11(3)278–282, 1997. Return to text.
43.Woodmorappe, J., The antediluvian biosphere and its capability of supplying the entire fossil record, Proceedings of the 1st International Conference on Creationism, 2:205–218,1986. Return to text.
44.Wieland, C., Living for 900 years, Creation 20(4):10–13, 1998. Return to text.
45.Vardiman, L., The Age of the Earth’s Atmosphere: A Study of the Helium Flux through the Atmosphere, Institute for Creation Research, El Cajon, CA, 1990; see also Blowing old-earth belief away: Helium gives evidence that the earth is young. Return to text.
46.Faulkner, D.R., The dubious apologetics of Hugh Ross, Journal of Creation 13(2):52–60, 1999. Return to text.
* The Genesis Question is published by
NavPress Publishing Group
P.O. Box 35001
Colorado Springs, CO 80935

Sincerely,

Walter

L
Lysa

Waltern,

Why do you bombard us with what someone else says about Dr. Hugh Ross? It's a third person, a he said/she said type of argument you've got going here. It's biased before you even copied it; notice I didn't say correct.

Walter, what do YOU say about Dr. Hugh Ross? It' seems you've never listened to him; you don't even have your own opinion about him; you have to take what someone else says about him. I'm not arguing with you through a third person.

Dr. Hugh Ross is child of God, a believer in Jesus Christ. Why have you taken this stance against him just because you disagree with him?

Waltern wrote:
By picking and choosing what is believable, and what is not believable, why even use the Bible?

This is where you err, Walter, my salvation is not dependent on whether I believe in young earth or an older earth. Jesus never said, "You must be born again [b]AND[/b] believe in a young earth creation."

I will end with this, it is definitely a narrow way but it's NOT a narrow minded way.

God bless you Walter,

S
sermonindex

Dear Lysa:

In my lifetime I have seen the Bible loose it’s supremacy within the body of Christ. When I was a child, I knew that we were all created by God, in the beginning. Later on, as I studied the Word of God, I learned that He created the Heavens and Earth in six literal days.

[b]If the days of creation are really geologic ages of millions of years, then the Gospel message is undermined at its foundation because it puts death, disease, thorns, and suffering before the Fall. The effort to define “days” as “geologic ages” results from an erroneous approach to Scripture—reinterpreting the Word of God on the basis of the fallible theories of sinful people.[/b]

It is a good exercise to read Genesis 1 and try to put aside outside influences that may cause you to have a predetermined idea of what the word “day” may mean. Just let the words of the passage speak to you.

Taking Genesis 1 in this way, at face value, without doubt it says that God created the universe, the earth, the sun, moon and stars, plants and animals, and the first two people within six ordinary (approximately 24-hour) days. Being really honest, you would have to admit that you could never get the idea of millions of years from reading this passage. The Jews today use the same method of counting time, as found in the Bible. Their day starts at 6:00 P.M. and continues until 6:00 P.M. the next day. The context in which the word yom is used in Genesis 1:5-2:2, describing each day as “the evening and the morning,” makes it quite clear that the author of Genesis meant 24-hour periods. The references to “evening” and “morning” make no sense unless they refer to a literal 24-hour day. This was the standard interpretation of the days of Genesis 1:5-2:2 until the 1800s when a paradigm shift occurred within the scientific community, and the earth's sedimentary strata layers were reinterpreted. Whereas previously the rock layers were interpreted as evidence of Noah's flood, the flood was thrown out by the scientific community and the rock layers were reinterpreted as evidence for an excessively old earth. Some well-meaning but terribly mistaken Christians then sought to reconcile this new anti-flood, anti-biblical interpretation with the Genesis account by reinterpreting yom to mean vast, unspecified periods of time.

[b][color=990000]Like I said previously, I have personally met Hugh Ross (I refer to him as "Huge Loss"). I met him in 1999 at a CBMC meeting(Christian Business & Professional Ministry for Men) and purchased several of his books and read them. I have since destroyed them, because I did not want to even put them in the trash because others might be deceived by what he has to say.[/color][/b]

[color=990000]What does the Bible tell us about creation? In Genesis, it tells us that God created the Heavens and the Earth in 6 days, and rested on the 7th day.[/color]

In Exodus we find:
Exo 20:11 (KJV)
For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth,
the sea, and all that in them is,
and rested the seventh day:
wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day,
and hallowed it (Heb=declared it ceremonialy holy).

In Psalms 33 we find:
(Psa 33:4-9 KJV)
For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth.
5 He loveth righteousness and judgment: the earth is full of the goodness of the LORD. 6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.
7 He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses.
8 Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him.
9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.

In Nehemiah, we find:
(Neh 9:5b-6)
Stand up and bless the LORD your God for ever and ever:
and blessed be thy glorious name,
which is exalted above all blessing and praise.
6 Thou, even thou, art LORD alone;
thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens,
with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein,the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all;
and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.

Also: (Job 38:4-13); (Psalms 8:3-9)

[color=990000]In Psalms 33:6-9 we find that Jesus spoke everything into existence by the Word of His mouth, and created everything out of nithing. In other words, he did not need the help on billions and trillions of years. He is the Creator, and has all power:

6.By the word of the Lord were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. 7. He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses. 8. Let all the earth fear the Lord: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him. 9. For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.[/color]

In the Book of John we find that Jesus was the Creator, and that all things were made by Him and for Him:

(John 1:1-3)
1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2. The same was in the beginning with God.
3. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

In the Book of Hebrews, we find: (Heb 11:3)

3. Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

So, we have not only one reference, but many references in the Old and New Testament that testify of creation-- that Jesus was the CREATOR, who spoke everything into existence out of nothing.

If we cut these passages out of the Bible, we no longer need a creator, so we have to create an explosion, that somehow over billions of years created everything that is. Is that scientific? Does it agree with the scientific method? The scientific method must prove their hypothesis by scientific experiments that prove their hypothesis (Scientific Method from Wikipedia:"To be termed scientific, a method of inquiry must be based on gathering observable, empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning.[1] A scientific method consists of the collection of data through observation and experimentation, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses.[2]")

Scientists have never been able to prove Evolution to anyone. Evolution is a religion for those who do not believe in, or have any use for, The Creator God.

However, Christian believers have the very Word of God, that tells us of His creation, and exactly how he created it- He spoke it into existence out of nothing: The Bible teaches in Genesis 1:1 (with Hebrews 11:3) that God created everything out of nothing, "ex- nihilo" (a creation from nothing). The Hebrew word (bara, word #1254 in Strongs) that is translated "created" in Genesis 1:1 is only used for creations by God. In summary it means a creation out of nothing. God spoke, and what was not, was.

Hope this helps you Lysa.

Sincerly,

Walter

W
wayneman

I lost faith and walked away from the church as a teenager, not because the church failed to hold the line on a 6000-year-old universe, but because the arguments of "Christian Apologetics" were so preposterous that they rendered faith impossible. How is an intelligent adolescent supposed to believe the infallibility of Scripture when it is predicated on the belief that the universe is 6000 years old? or that Satan put dinosaur bones in the ground to trick us into believing in evolution?

Apologetics begins with the proposition that the truth of the Bible can be proved logically, then seems to prove the opposite by the sheer lunacy of the "logical proofs" offered. It doesn't bolster faith; it stultifies faith, and is probably the main reason so many young people aren't buying their parents' religion. In fact, it was apologists like Josh McDowell and Peter Stoner who first planted doubts in my mind and then confirmed those doubts by the weakness of their arguments.

Kids trust public school science because Sunday School science is so badly reasoned. Creationism as an article of faith is plausible. Scientific Creationism, as presented by Doctors Ham and Hovind, is scientific nonsense. If you ask them how we are able to see stars from billions of light years away, they will tell you that God created the light-waves between the stars and the earth when he created the universe - 6000 years ago. This falls on the wrong side of Occam's razor and does not even qualify as a scientific hypothesis - or even a theory - because it cannot be proved or disproved by experimentation. It is one thing to believe this as a point of faith, but it is misleading to call it scientific.

Besides, why would God create the universe with "vintage" so that it appears 13 billion years old when it is really 6000 years old? Or maybe Satan put those stars there to trick us into disbelieving young earth theory?

If the devil and his angels have a sense of humor, Christian apologetics must be the laughing-stock of hell. In fact, it may have originated in hell, since the only thing it has achieved is to make Christianity appear untenable.

Dr. Ham would do far more good in the world if he would just say, "It is a waste of time to offer logical proofs for the truth of the Bible. It is only by the witness of the Holy Spirit that we know the Bible is the Word of God."

If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or [whether] I speak of myself. John 7:17


W
wayneman

walter wrote:

If the days of creation are really geologic ages of millions of years, then the Gospel message is undermined at its foundation because it puts death, disease, thorns, and suffering before the Fall. The effort to define “days” as “geologic ages” results from an erroneous approach to Scripture—reinterpreting the Word of God on the basis of the fallible theories of sinful people.

Walter,

Your beliefs about the origin of the universe are based on the Bible, and you conclude that science must be wrong because it contradicts the Word of God. This is a self-consistent line of reasoning and I wish creationists would just leave it at that instead of trotting out bad science to prove that the Word of God is correct. Whereas you judge science by the authority of the Scriptures, Dr. Ham and his crowd seem to think the God of the Bible needs validation from the god of science.

L
Lysa

Waltern wrote:
It is a good exercise to read Genesis 1 and try to put aside outside influences that may cause you to have a predetermined idea of what the word “day” may mean. Just let the words of the passage speak to you.

I'm sorry but your wording makes it seem that I've never read Genesis 1 before. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they've not studied as much as you have on the subject. I've read it many times and I've let it "speak to me" as you stated and in the end it doesn't really matter if we disagree, does it? I'm saved and so are you; believing in a young earth is just like believing in pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib or even once saved always saved! It's [b]NOT[/b] essential to our salvation.

Waltern wrote:
Like I said previously, I have personally met Hugh Ross. I met him in 1999 at a CBMC meeting(Christian Business & Professional Ministry for Men) and purchased several of his books and read them. I have since destroyed them, because I did not want to even put them in the trash because others might be deceived by what he has to say.

I"m sorry I didn't catch the part where you met him because I cannot read every word of your posts; they are so long they are exhausting and I'm sorry to be so blunt.

Dr. Hugh Ross has a different perspective than Ham does; to you that makes him wrong. To me, if the majority of Christendom is all for it, I step back and take another long look at whatever it is. I really haven't listened to Ross in a long time but this discussion has peaked my interest to get reacquainted with him again.

Waltern wrote:
The effort to define “days” as “geologic ages” results from an erroneous approach to Scripture—reinterpreting the Word of God on the basis of the fallible theories of sinful people.

Did you just call Dr. Hugh Ross a sinful person?

L
Lysa

Wayneman,

Very well explained!

This is one reason why I like Dr. Hugh Ross, he doesn't (or he didn't years ago), discount science; no, science and the Bible go hand in hand, they both justify each other. But here again, this is just my personal opinion.

Anyway, I enjoyed your post.
God bless you,

S
sermonindex

Normally, this is the kind of question that I would love to answer, although not in the vein that its being mined in.

It's a crucial question of prime import to the Body of Christ, one that is to be discussed, explored, pondered upon, prayered over, but as past experience has shown me, it will be NOT be a discussion, a loving give and take, it will be a hammering of a single viewpoint, and those who have a divugence of view from this single viewpoint will subject to a veritable verbal crucifixtion, which is tyranny.

and that's a shame, because with so many fine minds here, such a discussion could be vibrant and edifying, but as the past dialogues have shown, it won't, baring a miracle. Such a shame, as we have this platform to speak in love and truth , graciously provided by Greg Gordon as led by the Lord.

neil

S
sermonindex


A much more likely reason for the exodus of the young from the Church, is the church's obvious Deadness and absence of God's Abundant life. In reality, there is no real community in the American church, with few exceptions. There is usually only a form of Godliness, and that under the regimen of a clergy driven priest class, which provides more of a lecture mentality; sing a couple of songs, listen to the preaching; sit and be quiet. Most, including the adults, can't wait to get out of there and enjoy themselves, be it football or Denny's.


I doubt if the reality of Creation ever crosses their mind, for if God is real, who would want Him anyhow? His representative church is boring, and surely without the Love and Life that He is supposed to be, after all, the young KNOW their parents; they live with them. Hypocrisy is often only hidden to the hypocrite, and the constant sting of living with the hypocrite; one who attends church religiously, and yet lives without joy or mercy or kindness, drives everyone away. Of course it is easier on the conscious to pontificate about the liberal agenda and media's attack on scriptures, when in reality it is the fault of a cold and dead church, still holding on to Religious form, but denying Christ in His abundant life.

The church is not the meeting! I could say this 1000 times. The church is the local body; the community, and that reality, or the lack there of...[ in Godliness and real love one for another ] is the real issue. No one leaves a joyful and loving home. After all, it's your family.


R
RobertW

As a former youth pastor I can say that in my experience youth do not walk away from God for a lack of understanding, but because they did understand and rejected the Gospel as they resisted the Holy Ghost.

Apologetics is one of my favorite subjects. I have followed Hugh Ross off and on for about 16 years. Although helpful in some ways, these arguments are dead in the water to bring faith. Why? Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. I'm not referring simply to scripture verses, but the 'VOICE' of God as He takes hold of His word and makes it manifest to the hearer.

In order for anyone to be born again they have to respond to God. You cannot teach a person to be a Christian; New Testament Christianity is a changed heart and a the receiving of the Holy Spirit. This is a New Creature. Unless the person responds to God in genuine faith and is born again- there is no real chance of any lasting connection with christianity. They will go their own way.

I have watched many youth hear from God and resist the Holy Ghost. The bottom line was, they did not want Christ to rule over their life. No need to look around and ask 'why' they are not attending meetings. No need to blame anyone. It is not in their nature to do it. Unless they are changed they will never have a desire for God. They cannot resist the Holy Ghost and receive Him at the same time.

So what is needed is to ensure that the 'voice' of God is being heard. When God's glory is present His voice will be present. When His voice is present 'faith cometh...' That is our obligation. To depend consciously upon God for Him to speak to the people as we minister. It is all we can do.


R
run2win

There are no pat answers to what the root causes of this pattern might be, however, I have some ideas based upon what I have been observing in both the church and the parachurch (Young Life, etc.)

Bottom line: the parents are responsible for bringing their own children up in the faith, not abdicating the responsibility to the institution of the church--if anything, this trend of young people falling away is a reflection upon the failure of parents, fathers especially, to follow the scriptural mandate to teach their sons and daughters. Parents will be held accountable for their failure to see this through. Christianity is an active faith--no passivity: we hear the Word and we do it--otherwise, we have a dead faith. The home should be the base camp where every need is supplied, where children are instructed in how to have a quiet time, held accountable for growing in godly character, have times of prayer and mentoring. The church is the community of these families who gather regularly for fellowship and support, but this is not enough to sustain anyone!!

Is Jesus exalted in the home? Is Jesus exalted in the church?

Look at the church today: if we trust the church to do what is required of us as parents, we will see failure, and so we do. Often, within the church today, the goal is to keep the bodies of the young in the building/fellowship, but there is little or no regard for the souls/spirits contained within those bodies of children/youth. There is a fear of over-exposure to God's word, that it will "turn them off." So anything spiritual must be toned down and treated like a dreaded bitter pill. The primary goal is holding their attention with stimulating songs, videos, activities, while downplaying the disciplines of the faith. The flesh is gratified with pizza, candy, punch and goodie bags. The children leave filled in the flesh but empty in spirit.

Vacation Bible schools have to have cutesy themes featuring caricatures of the heros of the faith, treating real saints like cartoon figures. Themes rule, and there is very little substance.

During worship at many churches, the youth often sit together as a group rather than with their families. Under the supervision of adults who are themselves stuck in adolescence--they text each other with abandon, or play games on cell phones and other devices. Families should sit together in church; no one will effectively train up a child in the ways and disciplines of corporate worship like the parents can.

Youth and children must get to know God and to fear Him and enjoy Him. The problem is, we are failing to guide our children into abiding relationship with their Creator.

JOHN 12:32

WE MUST LIFT UP CHRIST. OUR CHILDREN NEED TO BE DISCIPLED, LETTING LOVE BE THE CHANNEL FOR TRUTH: AND THAT WITHOUT COMPROMISE. THIS IS THE FAILURE POINT: WE ARE NOT MAKING THE MOST OF OUR OPPORTUNITY. WE ARE TO BLAME. OUR GENERATION IS TO BLAME. WE CANNOT BLAME THIS PRESENT WORLD FOR OUR FAILURE--LOOK AT THE STATE OF THE WORLD IN WHICH CHRIST CAME TO ESTABLISH HIS CHURCH--THIS IS NOT AN ACCEPTABLE EXCUSE.

S
sermonindex

To Wayneman:


Wow, this is so interesting to me, honestly. Today, at the prophesized time, many Christians are no longer believing the truth, as found in the Bible, but instead many are believing the lie, as presented to us by the godless world. Is it a young earth or an old earth? The Bible tells us it is a young earth, and fallen man tells us it is an old earth. God has provided everything for us in His Word. The history of mankind, starting from the beginning 6,000 years ago, documented through the genealogies, found consistently throughout the Old Testament, that continue into the New Testament. Archbishop James Ussher published his Annals of the World in 1658 that used the Bible to document the beginning of time. What was that date? 4004 BC. This is a very good book, and I have read it.

[url=http://www.amazon.com/Annals-World-Usshers-Classic-History/dp/0890513600]Annals of the World- Archbishop James Ussher[/url]


A more timely book on the same subject is “The Chronology of Old Testament –A Return to the Basics” by Dr. Floyd Nolen Jones (that I have read as well, and highly recommend). Dr. Jones, working independently of Ussher, derived from the scriptures the very same year of Creation- 4004 B.C.

[url=http://www.floydjones.org/chron.html]Chronology of the Old Testament- Dr. Floyd Nolen Jones[/url]


WHAT DOES GOD HIMSELF PROMISE US CONCERNING HIS SCRIPTURES?

These are just some of the verses where God has promised both to give and[b] protect His Word.[/b]
"Then said the Lord unto me, Thou hast well seen: for I will hasten my word to perform it." (Jeremiah 1:12)

Here God says He is watching over His Word to perform it – to make all that He has said come to pass.

Jesus said, "Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away." (Mark 13:31)
God did not promise to keep the original piece of material upon which His words were given. He says His Words SHALL NOT PASS AWAY. Therefore, this promise demands that we still have them on planet earth.

Jesus also says, "Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels." (Mark 8:38)
Why this verse if God has not preserved His Word?
"But the word of the Lord endureth forever." (I Pet.1:25)

[b]This is a direct quote of Isaiah 40:8. God has said that His Word will endure forever! He did not promise that the original piece of paper, rock or vellum would exist forever but that He would preserve the Word – forever.
"The grass withereth, the flower fadeth; but the word of our God shall stand for ever." (Isaiah 40:8)

".. for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name." (Psalm 138:2)
Look at that! God says He has magnified His Word above His name! That is incredible for supposedly THE name was so sacred to the Jews that they did not even pronounce it. [/b]

Jesus said "... and the Scripture cannot be broken." (John 10:35)

Thus, on the basis of God's many promises we have in our hands the absolutely infallible inerrant Living Word of Almighty God – that God has promised to keep His Word as revealed through these Scriptures. But there is more!

"The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shall keep them, O Lord, thou shall preserve them from this generation forever." (Psa.12:6, 7)

This is a promise from God! Do you believe it? He says He will preserve it. He did not just promise to give the originals pure and free from error – He promised to preserve the text forever!

"He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." (John 12:48)

Since God's Word will judge us, are we to believe that God will judge us by something which He meticulously gave us and then lost along the way? Would it be just and fair of God to judge us with these words if they are no longer trustworthy – to hold us accountable when our guide is not 100 percent reliable?

In Matthew 5:18, Jesus said not "one jot or one tittle" shall change in the Word of God. Specifically, He was speaking of the Old Testament. We are being taught today that perhaps the Old Testament is not true, that it is full of contradictions, scribal errors, etc., but Jesus said that it was true and unerring – even to the smallest detail – and He was not referring to the originals, but to copies of copies of copies.

"Do you not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses in whom ye trust. For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?" (John 5:45-47)
Was Jesus speaking of the "originals"? No, for they did not have the originals. They had copies of copies of copies of the originals yet Jesus said "not one jot or one tittle" had been changed.

If God has only promised the "ORIGINALS" to be pure then Jesus erred in His assessment of the Scriptures. Should these statements of Jesus concerning the Scriptures be inaccurate then He is not Lord, no longer all knowing, no longer all God.

"Search the Scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." (John 5:39-40)

The ultimate purpose of the Scriptures is to lead us to Christ – and then to guide our lives. If the Scriptures are not accurate, if they have been changed or altered, if they have been lost so that we no longer have the Word of God, how can we come to Christ for they are the Holy Spirit's implement to testify of the Lord Jesus.


[b]Do we believe God, and in His preserved Word, or do we believe the lie, fed to us daily by the God rejecting Word? That is the issue[/b]

Sincerely,

Walter

[url=http://www.hope-of-israel.org/dinosaur.htm]Dinosaurs and Man walked the earth at the same time![/url]

[url=http://www.drtruth.org/Infinity3.html]The Dinosaurs & Giants of Texas[/url]

[url=http://www.icr.org/]Institute for Creation Research[/url]

[url=http://www.icr.org/index.php?module=discover&action=index&page=discover_museum]Institute for Creation Research Museum[/url]



wayneman wrote:
I lost faith and walked away from the church as a teenager, not because the church failed to hold the line on a 6000-year-old universe, but because the arguments of "Christian Apologetics" were so preposterous that they rendered faith impossible. How is an intelligent adolescent supposed to believe the infallibility of Scripture when it is predicated on the belief that the universe is 6000 years old? or that Satan put dinosaur bones in the ground to trick us into believing in evolution?

Apologetics begins with the proposition that the truth of the Bible can be proved logically, then seems to prove the opposite by the sheer lunacy of the "logical proofs" offered. It doesn't bolster faith; it stultifies faith, and is probably the main reason so many young people aren't buying their parents' religion. In fact, it was apologists like Josh McDowell and Peter Stoner who first planted doubts in my mind and then confirmed those doubts by the weakness of their arguments.

DELETED


D
dunlow64God

I haven't really read any of the other posts...I'm not very good at debating. And I'm not a very deep thinker as far as theologically and such. But I do have something I'd like to share. I am a youth leader at my church and I also have a teenager at home. We have a small group of teens, between 2-6 show up every week, depending on what else is going on. Of course my son is always there, but I wonder if he would be there if I didn't make him go...it's hard being a teenager. I remember when I was one, not that long ago, I might add. :-D It was difficult to know how to act or what to do. Trying to fit in with the "IN crowd" was priority. I was in church, but not actually "in church". I went because my friends went. I went to hang out with them, not with God. I was "saved" when I was a senior in high school, but I was never discipled. My parents weren't in church. So, I never went anywhere in the Lord. I believed in God and Jesus and I knew about the Holy Spirit, but that was about the extent of it. I knew Jesus had died for my sins and all of that and of course, I didn't want to go to hell...the Holy Spirit was nudging me, but after I made the step to receive salvation, I was baptized in water and that was it...nothing else became of that. I assumed that was all there was. I grew up in a Pentecostal church when I was smaller. From birth to about the age of 9 or 10. I knew there was something missing , but I didn't know how to go about getting it. (By the way, my grandma and granddaddy took me to church when I was smaller, parents still not in church) While going to church in my teen years, it was more of a ritual in the church. Go to Sunday School, read a lesson, maybe sing a song or two in the youth choir during worship service, opening prayer, sing a few hymns, listen to the sermon, closing prayer, shake a few hands, hug a few necks and go home. I never fell in love with Jesus. I would feel the occasional tug on my spirit, but nothing more. Oh how I wish things could have been different in my younger years...(by the way, I'm only 36 for those of you who are wondering...
:-) )
Back to the present...my son, who will be 16 in a few months, is a good boy...if I do say so myself. He says that he has received salvation from our wonderful heavenly Father and he has been baptized in water as a public sign of his decision. A couple of years ago at youth camp he was baptized in the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues even. At the time we went to a church that didn't really have a good youth program, more about playing basketball and hanging out than the Lord. And I am a believer who believes that if you don't use what you have you can lose it...enough said. He goes to church and is involved in the youth group. He does not listen to worldly music or watch worldly shows, when he is under my roof. He goes to his dad's house on the weekend and lives in a house where his dad does not acknowledge God on any occasion and he is a Mason.(whole other can of worms, I know) He is not an atheist, but is very bitter towards any talk of religion. He calls me a "Holy Roller". Anyway, when Kristian (my son) is over at his dad's house, I don't know what he does. It is a whole other ballgame over there. He is exposed to things that he doesn't need to be. He sees and hears things that he shouldn't. I have no control over that, except to pray for his dad and stepmom's salvation. (I know that it seems as though I am rambling, but I am going somewhere with this.) Kristian is homeschooled, by me, along with his sister and two brothers. Yesterday he started Driver's Ed at the local high school. He has been homeschooled from 9th grade up until now, so it's been a few years since he has been in the public school environment. He was a little nervous to say the least, not knowing what to expect...and I was nervous for him. After the first class, he said that it was okay. He went on to tell me about this one boy who was really nice and well-mannered in front of the teacher, but as soon as the teacher left, this boy started using foul language and acting up...I expected this and I'm sure Kristian did too. I can't protect him from every evil thing in the world, but I know who can. Kristian wears a lot of Christan t-shirts...that's mainly what he wears all of the time... a few we picked out, a few he picked out. But yesterday he chose not to wear one. I noticed it right off the bat, but I didn't mention anything about it. He wears a Christian t-shirt just about everywhere we go, the ball field, church, the grocery store, practically everywhere, but he chose not to where one on this occasion...that seemed odd to me. Well, I made up my mind right then that I wasn't going to say anything to him about it because I want to see if he will wear one of his Christian t-shirts any of the days that he has to go. I know wearing a Christian t-shirt doesn't make you a Christian any more than sitting in a garage makes you a car, but it is the point of the matter...which is what I am trying to get at...He is not in love with Jesus. He has not come to love His Savior completely and totally...sure he loves Jesus and he wants to do the right things. But He can't live off of my faith and my salvation...He has to fall in love with Jesus for himself. I can't do it for him and I can't make it happen. That is a personal journey for each and every person, whether young or old. If a person is not in love with Jesus, he or she will not serve him with everything they have. My pastor tells me all of the time..."if they (the youth) ever fall in love with Jesus, you won't be able to stop them." But he is also quick to say that we can't make it happen. He also tells me that my main purpose for having a youth meeting is to bring them into the presence of God. To let them see Jesus in whatever I do on that particular night. And he is right, I can't make Kristian fall in love with Jesus, but I can as his mom and youth leader show him Jesus. I can live a life of love for Christ and let His love flow through me to him and the other youth, to everyone I come in contact with for that matter. The whole thing is this...we cannot force anything on our youth...we try to, but it will not work. We can play on their emotions and try to scare them into salvation, but it will not last. They have to be in God's wonderful presence and fall in love with their wonderful Savior, Jesus Christ for themselves. They have to seek God's face on their own. They have to hunger and thirst after righteousness. We can pray and allow the Holy Spirit to work through us in such a way that they are drawn to Him, but we can not force it on them. We can disciple them after they make that step of faith to receive Christ as their personal Savior, we can pour into their lives and pray for them continually, but we in ourselves can not make them get saved and follow Christ. I want very badly for my son and my youth group and all youth for that matter to rise up and take a stand for Christ, but I can't make it happen. I am nothing without Christ. I don't want anyone to go to hell, but I in my own power can do nothing to stop it. It's Christ in me, the hope of glory! The prayer from my heart is this...I pray that God in His infinite wisdom and glory will rend the heavens and come down on this generation. That He will reach out to the youth and draw them to Him. I pray that such a mighty move of the Spirit will come upon all youth everywhere that it will rock this whole world and cause Satan to quake and tremble. I pray that the generation that is being raised up now will fall so deeply and madly in love with Christ that they will put the old saints to shame( in a good way :-) ). I pray that they will have such a great hunger and thirst for righteousness that they will never be satisfied. I pray that they will want more and more and more of the things that God has to offer them. I pray that they will humble themselves before the throne of God and give their all to Him. I pray that their will would be God's will. That they be totally and completely sold out to Him. That they would count their lives as not their own. May they be broken vessels fit for the Potter's use. Equip them to be used for the furthering of Your Kingdom. Equip us, Oh Lord, to be examples and living epistles. May we fall in love with You over and over again. May every day be a new day in You. May we submit ourselves to You every morning. May Your will always be our will. May we never be satisfied with where we are in our walk with You. May we continue to grow in You every day. May we receive revelations from You every day. May we seek Your face every day. Thank You for Your love, Your mercy and Your grace. Thank You for saving a wretch like me. Thank You for keeping a wretch like me. Thank you for this wonderful website. Thank You for these wonderful brothers and sisters! I pray that You will bless each and everyone with Your presence today, tomorrow, and forever. May we grow in Your love each day! In Jesus' precious, sweet, and holy name, Amen and Amen.

This turned out to be a little longer than expected...the Holy Spirit started flowing and here ya go...I pray that God will minister to everyone in some way or another as a result of this! God bless each and every one of You! :-)

Footnote...as I've said before I'm not good at debating, I believe what I believe! I can't stand up to over half of the folks here, because I'm not as learned as a lot of you are. But I do love God with everything I have and I live for Him daily. I'm learning and growing in Him daily. If I have said anything here that brings offense in any way I have only said what comes from my heart and I pray that it is taken with a grain of salt. I realize that everyone has different views on speaking in tongues and maybe even some of you are in the Masons organization...I just want you to know that I am not condemning anyone or talking down to anyone. I love you all with the love of Christ! I am here to spread the love of God not dissension among brothers and sisters. Thank you for allowing me to give my two cents!

S
sermonindex

I still contend that most people believe the Word when they see the Word. Jesus is real as He is indisputably alive in his people, and that is when the conviction of sin, righteousness and judgment manifest; to create holiness; this is where Apostolic preaching and teaching takes root.


It was said by all of the church in Pentecost; "Behold, how they love one another!" I would wager that not many of the youth departed from the faith that were reared here. They knew God was real, and a good God. They knew He was to be feared, and worshiped also, because they saw Him in action every day. The clergy/laity heresies that created the deadness we now tolerate were not yet dominant. The church is not the meeting, but a vibrant and joyful family, equal and edifying itself in love, as the Christian home is to be.


I might add that the church was also not centered around theologians mincing at the jot and tittle, assuming that their perspectives were the only thing important. The least of the brethren, along with the youth, the unlearned, the poor and destitute were honored and received as any other, and the church was open to their ministry as much as any. It was alive, and as far as youth go, they seldom will leave life willingly.

H
HeartSong

dunlow64God said:

I can't stand up to over half of the folks here, because I'm not as learned as a lot of you are. But I do love God with everything I have and I live for Him daily.


I think you stood up just fine. :-)

L
Lysa

dunlow64God,

Sister, you need to share more often! I will be praying that prayer for your son and mine. Jesus said, "You have not chosen me but I have chosen you;" I pray that for mine and others, "Lord, choose them to be yours and yours alone. I pray that they would fall in love with you and as their mother, let me be an example of being in true love with you."

Just a thought, have you ever let your youth group control the meeting; plan the music, the worship, plan the topic, do the talking, asking, etc? so they would begin to have a vested interest in the outcome? I don't know, I've often thought about that. I don't know if it would work or not, they will probably be slow going at first since no one has probably ever allowed them that kind of freedom before.

Brothertom,

You wrote> It was alive, and as far as youth go, they seldom will leave life willingly.

I agree wholeheartedly with you on this.

I agree with many, many others as well, forgive me if I didn't point you out.

God bless you all,

S
sermonindex

Lysa:, thanks...and dunlow64.. I didn't want to make the impression, however, that there is not some failure in even the best of us. We can do everything right, and we all struggle, yet have things turn into a train wreck sometimes.


Adam had a perfect Father, and walked hand in hand with the Creator Himself. Adam failed, yes, but did God fail? A repentant Adam had Cain, who admonished him, to no avail.


Abraham and Ishmael, Jacob and Esau, King David and Absalom, Moses and his sons and Solomon his sons...on and on. It is sometimes not the Churches fault, or the parents. Yes we fail, but there is also the world, the flesh and the Devil for everyone to overcome, and when we see our children devoured, we as all good parents do, look firstly to our own inadequacies and failures, and failure to provide.


But we were saved out of depravity, as wicked Adam is; and the gripping reality of our children is that they must too be saved, by their faith.

Salvation is not inherited like a bank account, as much as we disparately hope it is. It is imputed by election and grace, and it often seems unfair.


We cannot suffer guilt by the rebellion of our children, but as Job, offer supplication and intercede for mercy for them, that God would have mercy, and they would be born again and thereby saved. They belong to God, and must answer before Him, and either receive or reject Jesus' blood sacrifice all on there own.


There is always pain bound in this thing called parenting, and sometimes excruciating pain. It gives us a taste of how the Father feels when He is rejected and spurned.


We are weak people, saved by grace, in the end, and Jesus promised that one day, every tear shall be wiped away from our face, and "The former things shall be remembered no more." I am sure that this involves the memory of our loved ones who hated the Lord, and were damned. Otherwise, Heaven would not be Heaven carrying an eternal weight of loss and guilt, would it?


My son is living a narcissistic and reprobate lifestyle, and has blasphemed me and constantly disrespects me. He was home schooled and attended a solid Christian academy, and I taught him also about the Lord. I do not believe he has a conscience, convicting him of any sin. He is in God's hands, and I too have mourned unrequited love and rejection of a loved one. I get up, and I go on, trying to serve the Lord, even all alone, if necessary, but I am not guilt ridden. People eventually have to choose this day who they will serve. Heaven and Hell are very, very real.

W
wayneman

Walter wrote:

Do we believe God, and in His preserved Word, or do we believe the lie, fed to us daily by the God rejecting Word? That is the issue

Well, I believe God and His preserved Word, if you're taking votes. Of course God has sovereignly preserved His Word. It could not be otherwise. If the original autographs were rewritten and contaminated, then God would lose sovereignty over His own Word, which is impossible. But I was not questioning the authority of Scripture; I was pointing out that Christian apologetics is creating a generation of agnostics by conflating Bible truth with junk science and lunatic logic.

S
sermonindex

[b]Hello Wayneman:[/b]

[color=990000]I would like to recommend a video by Ben Stein entitled “Expelled- No Intelligence Allowed”

It is a movie that documents how the Evolutionists, with the help of the colleges and Universities in America, and the additional help of the national media, has stopped all dialogue about even the possiblity of Creation and Intelligent Design. How have they done this?

The Scientist who expresses any validity or makes any positive declaration or statement about Creation and or intelligent design is "discliplined". Several examples:

1.Dr. Caroline Crocker of George Mason University mentioned “Intelligent Design” in her teaching, and lost her job! She became blacklisted and has not been able to find a job anywhere.

2.Dr. Michael Egnor, Neurosurgeon, who made the public statement to High School Students that Doctors do not need to study evolution in order to practice medicine. He was viciously attacked by the “Science Lobby” and the media.

3.Professor Robert J. Marks II of Baylor University- Once they found out he supported intelligent design, they shut down his website and made him return grant money.

4.Astronomer Gueruro Onogly- Publised a book, arguing that intelligent design was feasible. The result? His tenure was denied.[b] His statement—"if Scientists value their careers, they had better be quiet about intelligent design".[/b]

5.Molecular Biologist Jonathan Wells- was trying to bring up the possibility of Creation, and was ostracized and his views that were distorted by mainline Darwinists.[/color]

[color=336633]Some Darwinists, and their views:

Dr. Richard Dawkins: A Darwinist whose deception and deceit are not only disgusting, but he is also focused on the suppression of academic freedom, and in the belief in God.

He made the following statement: “Creationists are just stupid”

He made the following statement in the video:
[b]"Once he started studying Darwinism, that was what finally killed off his religious faith”

Biologist P. Z. Myers, who runs the pro-Darwin, anti religion blog says “that science eroded his faith in God”

Dr. William Provine, Professor of History & Biology at Cornell University made the following statements in the video:

“No Gods, no life after death, no ultimate foundation of ethics, no ultimate meaning of life, and no human free will. All are deeply connected to an evolutionary perspective. We are here today and gone tomorrow.”[/b]

[b]He was a Christian, however his Bilology teacher challenged him and turned him from the belief in creation to evolution. He immediately began to doubt the existence of the Deity. “It starts by believing in evolution and progresses to giving up an active deity, and then it progresses to gving up the hope that there is any life after death—when you give those two up, the rest of it follows rather easily. Then you give up the hope that there is an imminent morality, and then finally there is no free will. If you believe in evolution, you cannot hope for any free will or any meaing of human life. We live, we die, and we are absolutely gone when we die.[/color][/b]

[b]It is an excellent movie, and will surely open the eyes of those who are searching for the truth.[/b]

Sincerely,

Walter



wayneman wrote:
Walter wrote:

Do we believe God, and in His preserved Word, or do we believe the lie, fed to us daily by the God rejecting Word? That is the issue

Well, I believe God and His preserved Word, if you're taking votes. Of course God has sovereignly preserved His Word. It could not be otherwise. If the original autographs were rewritten and contaminated, then God would lose sovereignty over His own Word, which is impossible. But I was not questioning the authority of Scripture; I was pointing out that Christian apologetics is creating a generation of agnostics by conflating Bible truth with junk science and lunatic logic.

M
Miccah


waltern wrote:



I would like to recommend a video that you can rent, by Ben Stein called Expelled- No Intelligence allowed


Just started watching this the other night. Good recommendation. :-)

W
wayneman

Walter,

[url=http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=ben+stein+expelled&emb=0&aq=0&oq=ben+stein+#]Here[/url] is the trailer and links to related videos.

The Origin of Species is the Westminster Confession of the anti-god movement, which is why some scientists and academic authorities respond so irrationally to Intelligent Design. If, on the other hand, evolution were taught in the Bible, it would be banned from public schools and denounced as heresy by Richard Dawkins.

G
ginnyrose

I only briefly read some of the posts here and practically none of the long ones because they are exhausting, as Lysa said.

I have one idea, maybe two, why youth leave the church. But first let me tell you something.

I am 62 years old. I grew up in a Christian home as did all my peers. We attended Sunday Schools, VBS, Bible Schools, parochial schools where Bible was taught. Some attended Christian colleges, although very few did but this made no difference. We were exposed to wonderful evangelists, revival services that went on for weeks. BUT many apostatized, meaning most stayed religious, are decent folks but are today in a very worldly church.

I asked a couple of our church conference leaders this question "why did most of my generation leave the church? We had the best Bible teaching there was. Why?" Then the one fellow who is ten years younger then me asked "Why didn't you apostasize?" hmmm. Made me think. never considered this question before. I finally told him "God must have had his hand on me."

And that is the answer: God had his hand on me. Was I ever tempted to leave? YES, and YES!!! And why didn't I? Must have been the hand of God on me.

I could say more but will allow this to suffice for the moment. It is late...

ginnyrose

S
sermonindex

To Wayneman:

The youtube links are good, but the movie is much more thorough. If you have a chance, be sure and catch the movie.

Sincerely,

Walter


wayneman wrote:
Walter,

[url=http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=ben+stein+expelled&emb=0&aq=0&oq=ben+stein+#]Here[/url] is the trailer and links to related videos.

The Origin of Species is the Westminster Confession of the anti-god movement, which is why some scientists and academic authorities respond so irrationally to Intelligent Design. If, on the other hand, evolution were taught in the Bible, it would be banned from public schools and denounced as heresy by Richard Dawkins.

G
ginnyrose

Now, I would like to finish what I started.

Seems to me all one has to do to answer the question "why are the young people leaving the church?" is simply to study history. Start with Genesis, go all the way through the OT and then start again with Acts and study church history. There is a cycle that has never changed: one of revival, then a falling away...

Church historians suggest that affluence has done more damage to the church then anything else. Wealth makes people feel comfortable, accomplished through their own efforts hence the need for God is minimized other then one needs him for fire insurance. (hmm, I'ld hate to diagram this sentence. :-o ) With affluence comes covetousness. Advertisers use it to peddle their wares, sowing discontent.

You know what? One can psychoanalyze this question and can come up with multiple answers and all may be correct. But is there not a more fundamental answer to this question, one that is basic, a one-size-fits-all? I think so.

Look at Genesis 3:1: the serpent asks Eve, "Yea, hath God said?" Does not all apostasy begin with this question?

And the next one is found in Genesis 4:2-6: here is the story of Cain and Abel. God had earlier instituted a blood sacrifice as the method to atone for one's sin. But Cain improvised, he decided what he thought was an improvement: he gave what he was good at: he was a good farmer who offered the fruit of his labors. But this was not acceptable to God: it was not what he demanded: blood.

Now you have two fundamental issues that dog man, even today: "Yea, hath God said?" (questioning his Word); and "Improvising of God's word" to make it more compatible with personal desires.

The devil never did have to change his methods because man has not changed, refuses to learn and is as stupid as ever.

Seems to me Mr. Ham could have saved himself a ton of money and just checked Bible and church history and he would have had his answer.

I also think Krispy is right...

ginnyrose

T
thomasm

Rom 1:16niv ...because it is the power of God for salvation...
Col 2 6-23 There is a lot of form, without power in the church today, being full of the knowlegde of scripture, and human understanding of scripture, but denying the power of God.

The youth of every generation is looking for the real deal, we can't win them with words only, they need a demonstration of the POWER OF GOD.

When I experienced the power of God, through the cross of Jesus, the theory of evolution went out with the rest of the trash in my life, I didn't need anyone to tell me it wasn't true. It was the power of God, by His Holy Spirit that showed me.
You could take me out and torture me, but the truth that was revealed to me can't be changed, even by the best debater, because it came by the Power of God.

We need to stick to the gospel," because it is the power of God unto salvation." Rom 1:16

The Holy spirit will do the rest.

Love in CHRIST tom

S
sermonindex

To ginnyrose:

The problem lies within each of us, and is spread to our Children. If we have not disconnected our Television sets and radios and are not spending “quiet time”, each day with the Lord and His Word, and praying back His Word, and making it the major part of our existence, then our Children will be lukewarm while they are young. Once they get to Public Schools, they will be indoctrinated with the Homosexual agenda, starting in Kindergarten. In Junior High and then High School--- the Science classes will turn them over to Darwin & Evolution, and it is all over.[b] Our Christian schools are not much better. Calvary Chapel High School has found that over 80% of their students fall away from Christianity once they go on to College.[/b]

We are the problem, and our Children follow suit. If we are lukewarm Christians, Our Children will follow suit, and once the godless world gets their ear, they are easily gone. All of our media is recruiting them- from the Television (Discovery Channel, History Channel, Spongebob—all of them), the radio, the Movies, everything is marshaled against them by The Prince of the Power of the Air, Satan.

Satan is the deceiver of the Brethren, as well as the deceiver of the whole world. We must prepare our children for the battle that they will face. The only way to do that is with Jesus Christ and His Word, as well as our own living example of what it is to be His soldier.

[url=http://www.christiannewswire.com/news/58592127.html]Ca. Senate votes to to Force All California Public Schools to Promote Homosexuality, Transsexuality, Bisexuality Education[/url]

[url=http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=26127]Homosexual Agenda in the Public Schools[/url]

[url=http://www.robgagnon.net/HomosexualAgenda.htm]The Threat of the Homosexual Agenda[/url]

Sincerely,


Walter


ginnyrose wrote:
Now, I would like to finish what I started.

Seems to me all one has to do to answer the question "why are the young people leaving the church?" is simply to study history. Start with Genesis, go all the way through the OT and then start again with Acts and study church history. There is a cycle that has never changed: one of revival, then a falling away...

Church historians suggest that affluence has done more damage to the church then anything else. Wealth makes people feel comfortable, accomplished through their own efforts hence the need for God is minimized other then one needs him for fire insurance. (hmm, I'ld hate to diagram this sentence. :-o ) With affluence comes covetousness. Advertisers use it to peddle their wares, sowing discontent.

You know what? One can psychoanalyze this question and can come up with multiple answers and all may be correct. But is there not a more fundamental answer to this question, one that is basic, a one-size-fits-all? I think so.

Look at Genesis 3:1: the serpent asks Eve, "Yea, hath God said?" Does not all apostasy begin with this question?

And the next one is found in Genesis 4:2-6: here is the story of Cain and Abel. God had earlier instituted a blood sacrifice as the method to atone for one's sin. But Cain improvised, he decided what he thought was an improvement: he gave what he was good at: he was a good farmer who offered the fruit of his labors. But this was not acceptable to God: it was not what he demanded: blood.

Now you have two fundamental issues that dog man, even today: "Yea, hath God said?" (questioning his Word); and "Improvising of God's word" to make it more compatible with personal desires.

The devil never did have to change his methods because man has not changed, refuses to learn and is as stupid as ever.

Seems to me Mr. Ham could have saved himself a ton of money and just checked Bible and church history and he would have had his answer.

I also think Krispy is right...

ginnyrose

M
meltond

It is easy to lay blame upon school, sunday school, culture, etc. Yet, has any one considered a collapse in biblical parenting? The decline in the involvement of young people in the church could be in response to the decline in the home; especially in parenting. The Word of God gives parents a mandate; "Train up a child in the way they should go, and when they are old, they will not depart from it." Often times, we church our children, but do we as parents devoutly train them - bringing them up in the nuture and in the admonition of the Lord? We have fallen into the practices of Rome in many regards. One of which, we heap upon laity, the total responsibility of bibilical training. We demand our children's church leaders, Sunday school teachers, etc. to teach our children the Bible when it is the responsibility of the parent. When we speak of revival, I see a need of revival in the home; the family. A revival whereby the power of God visits and convicts Fathers for their sloth and coldness regarding biblical parenting and the responsibilities required of them by our Lord. I too am grieved about our young people falling under the power of this age, yet, as Fathers and Mothers take their place biblically, I believe our youth will be stedfast as well.

L
Lysa

waltern wrote:
The problem lies [b]within each of us[/b], and is spread to our Children.
[b]If we[/b] have not disconnected our Television sets and radios
[b]We are the problem[/b], and our Children follow suit.
[b]We must prepare[/b] our children for the battle that they will face.

Walter,

When I read all the above, it seems to me that you've left no room for God because it all based upon "our" works and if we fail as parents, then all is lost for our children and they have no hope,which is simply not true. I'm not saying we shouldn't study the Bible with our children, turn off the TV; but I am saying that it doesn't end with us if we fail miserably.

Did you even read brothertom's post? He has done all he has known to do and when we have done all we know to do, we are "to stand still and see the salvation of the Lord" (Ex 14:13, 2Ch 20:17). THIS puts it back in God's corner and out of mine.

My sons are good boys, young men, are they living for the Lord? No, but I see God answer prayer for them and they have turned out well not because of ANYTHING I have done right in God's eyes or my own but in spite of me!

The following verse is true for my sons as well as other people's children, I know people use this verse for the end times but I'd like to put a twist on it as the Lord opened it up to me...

[i]Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed,[/i]
2 Thess 2.3

I believe this verse holds true for every troubling area in a Christian's life as well. Do Christians have trouble with lust, spending money, gambling and/or lying? I'm just offering to SI how I believe the Lord opened this up to me today, that "[i]Except there come a falling away THAT THE man of sin be revealed...[/i]"

Until THAT man be revealed in our life we won't be everything the Lord wants us to be OR for unbelievers, until THAT man be revealed we won't even come to the Lord.

When that man is revealed, the one who opposes and exalts himself above everything they've learned or know (all that is called God), because the man of sin sits in the temple of God, posing as God (paraphrased 2 Thess 2.4); when he is revealed as the poser he is in each individuals life, that is when God will begin a new work and a new thing in the person's life.

I'm doing what I know to do but it puts it squarely in God's lap and not mine. He's got bigger shoulders than I do (grin). Therefore, I do not let satan trip me up with shame and guilt NOR do I let other people put shame and guilt on me.

H
HeartSong

meltond wrote:

I too am grieved about our young people falling under the power of this age, yet, as Fathers and Mothers take their place biblically, I believe our youth will be stedfast as well.


It is always when we turn away from the ways of the Lord that things begin to slide. Because many parents are not obeying the commandments of our Lord, their children also turn away. The Bible tells us again and again that this is how it will be.

To rely on the institution of "church" to raise up our children in the ways of the Lord is foolishness - for no matter what the "church" tries to teach them, it is in the nature of the child to follow their parents. Sadly, oftentimes the "church" chooses to resort to a dog and pony show to draw in the children - which only reinforces the worldly ways that it is supposedly trying to save them from. This is further exacerbated by the fact that most "churches" have become worldly in themselves.

The Awana program is an example of this. Children are given points and badges for memorizing scripture. These points are then accumulated and redeemed at the Awana store - where they buy things according to how many points they have "earned". There are two things that are happening here. One is that the children are being taught that their value is based upon their abilities as defined by the program. The other is that the knowledge of God is being rewarded by the things of the world.

No wonder the young people are leaving the church. This program is actually teaching them that the world is to be more valued than God, for the reward is necessarily greater than that which it is being given for.

C
clintstone

once again another triffling scientific , DEAD, article .

S
sermonindex


To Lysa:

My post was not directed to you at all, it was directed at me, as well as all other Christian believers. It was merely a reflection of Scripture, and what we are commanded to do in God’s Word. All of us miss the mark, however when we do, we repent, and turn back to God, and continue our relationship and walk with Him:

[color=990000]We are told to:[/color]

[b]Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.[/b]
(Proverbs 22:6)

[color=990000]Early Morning Rendezvous- Christ set the example:[/color]

(Mark 1:35)" 35. And in the morning,[b] rising up a great while before day, he went out, and departed into a solitary place, and there prayed.[/b]

Luke 21:38 And all the people came[b] early in the morning[/b] to him in the temple, for to hear him.

John 8:2[b] And early in the morning[/b] he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.

[b][color=990000]Getting up Early is the REQUISITE for Devotion:[/color][/b]

Psalms 5:3[b] My voice shalt thou hear in the morning, O LORD; in the morning will I direct my prayer unto thee, and will look up.[/b]

Psalms 59:16 But I will sing of thy power; yea, [b]I will sing aloud of thy mercy in the morning:[/b] for thou hast been my defence and refuge in the day of my trouble.

Psalms 63:1 O God, thou art my God; [b]early will I seek thee:[/b] my soul thirsteth for thee, my flesh longeth for thee in a dry and thirsty land, where no water is;

Psalms 88:13 But unto thee have I cried, O LORD; and[b] in the morning [/b]shall my prayer prevent thee.

Isaiah 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea,[b[ with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: [/b]for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

[color=990000]Executing God's commands:[/color]

Genesis 22:3 And Abraham rose up [b]early in the morning,[/b] and saddled his ass, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son, and clave the wood for the burnt offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him.

[color=990000]Discharge of daily duties:[/color]

Proverbs 31:15[b] She riseth also while it is yet night, and giveth meat to her household, and a portion to her maidens.[/b]

[color=000000]Neglect of rising early, leads to poverty: [/color]

Proverbs 6:9-11[b] How long wilt thou sleep, O sluggard? when wilt thou arise out of thy sleep? Yet a little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to sleep: So shall thy poverty come as one that travelleth, and thy want as an armed man.[/b]

[b][color=000000]Rising Early is Practiced by the Wicked for:[/color][/b]

[b]Deceit: [/b]
Proverbs 27:14 He that blesseth his friend with a loud voice, rising early in the morning, it shall be counted a curse to him.

[b]Executing plans of evil. [/b]
Micah 2:1 Woe to them that devise iniquity, and work evil upon their beds! when the morning is light, they practise it, because it is in the power of their hand.

[color=990000]Rising up early illustrates spiritual diligence. [/color]
Romans 13:11-12 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.


[color=990000]Rising up Early is Exemplified by:[/color]

Abraham:
Genesis 19:27 And Abraham gat up early in the morning to the place where he stood before the LORD

Isaac:
Genesis 26:31 And they rose up betimes in the morning, and sware one to another: and Isaac sent them away, and they departed from him in peace.

Jacob:
Genesis 28:18 And Jacob rose up early in the morning, and took the stone that he had put for his pillows, and set it up for a pillar, and poured oil upon the top of it.

Joshua:
Joshua 3:1 And Joshua[b] rose early in the morning;[/b] and they removed from Shittim, and came to Jordan, he and all the children of Israel, and lodged there before they passed over.

Gideon:
Judges 6:38 And it was so: for[b] he rose up early on the morrow, [/b]and thrust the fleece together, and wringed the dew out of the fleece, a bowl full of water.

Samuel:
1 Samuel 15:12 And when Samuel[b] rose early[/b] to meet Saul in the morning, it was told Samuel, saying, Saul came to Carmel, and, behold, he set him up a place, and is gone about, and passed on, and gone down to Gilgal.

David:
1 Samuel 17:20[b] And David rose up early in the morning,[/b] and left the sheep with a keeper, and took, and went, as Jesse had commanded him; and he came to the trench, as the host was going forth to the fight, and shouted for the battle.

Mary:
Mark 16:2 And[b] very early in the morning[/b] the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.

Apostles:
Acts 5:21 And when they heard that, they entered into the temple[b] early in the morning, and taught.[/b] But the high priest came, and they that were with him, and called the council together, and all the senate of the children of Israel, and sent to the prison to have them brought.

Sincerely,

Walter


Lysa wrote:
waltern wrote:
The problem lies [b]within each of us[/b], and is spread to our Children.
[b]If we[/b] have not disconnected our Television sets and radios
[b]We are the problem[/b], and our Children follow suit.
[b]We must prepare[/b] our children for the battle that they will face.

Walter,

When I read all the above, it seems to me that you've left no room for God because it all based upon "our" works and if we fail as parents, then all is lost for our children and they have no hope,which is simply not true. I'm not saying we shouldn't study the Bible with our children, turn off the TV; but I am saying that it doesn't end with us if we fail miserably.

Did you even read brothertom's post? He has done all he has known to do and when we have done all we know to do, we are "to stand still and see the salvation of the Lord" (Ex 14:13, 2Ch 20:17). THIS puts it back in God's corner and out of mine.

My sons are good boys, young men, are they living for the Lord? No, but I see God answer prayer for them and they have turned out well not because of ANYTHING I have done right in God's eyes or my own but in spite of me!

The following verse is true for my sons as well as other people's children, I know people use this verse for the end times but I'd like to put a twist on it as the Lord opened it up to me...

[i]Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed,[/i]
2 Thess 2.3

I believe this verse holds true for every troubling area in a Christian's life as well. Do Christians have trouble with lust, spending money, gambling and/or lying? I'm just offering to SI how I believe the Lord opened this up to me today, that "[i]Except there come a falling away THAT THE man of sin be revealed...[/i]"

Until THAT man be revealed in our life we won't be everything the Lord wants us to be OR for unbelievers, until THAT man be revealed we won't even come to the Lord.

When that man is revealed, the one who opposes and exalts himself above everything they've learned or know (all that is called God), because the man of sin sits in the temple of God, posing as God (paraphrased 2 Thess 2.4); when he is revealed as the poser he is in each individuals life, that is when God will begin a new work and a new thing in the person's life.

I'm doing what I know to do but it puts it squarely in God's lap and not mine. He's got bigger shoulders than I do (grin). Therefore, I do not let satan trip me up with shame and guilt NOR do I let other people put shame and guilt on me.


[b][color=000000]Rising[/color][/b]

L
Lysa

You missed my whole point (which you usually do to) hammer home another long post with only your point.

God bless you Walter,

S
sermonindex


To Lysa:

My long point of view is not my own. It comes from God's Word, and is taught in God's Word.

Also, you might be interested in what the Bible teaches about "falling away", and what it really means.

Apostasy, from the Greek word apostasia, meaning withdrawl or defection, is the defiant falling away from Christianity by someone who had been a converted member of the faith. Apostasy isn't a simple matter of sin by human weakness. It is a deliberate, unrepentant rejection of the Truth by someone who became fully aware of it.

Apostasy, or rather, never committing it, is a very serious matter. Once one knows better, he or she is expected to do better. Of all of the sins that there are to commit, apostasy is the unpardonable sin.

What does The Bible have to say about apostasy? What does Bible Prophecy say about it in the end-times?

[b]"In Later Times"[/b]

1. Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2. Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 3. Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. 4. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: 5. For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. (1 Timothy 4:1-5)

" This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3. Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4. Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5. Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.." (2 Timothy 3:1-5 )

[b]"Thorns and Thistles" [/b]

" 4. For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5. And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6. If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 7. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 8. But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.." (Hebrews 6:4-8)


Sincerely,

Walter


Lysa wrote:
You missed my whole point (which you usually do to) hammer home another long post with only your point.

God bless you Walter,

S
sermonindex

you wrote:

Of all of the sins that there are to commit, apostasy is the unpardonable sin.

Chapter and verse please.

Now, Praise God, I am very aware of what Jesus said in Matthew 12:31-32

"31 Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come".

Now thats the ESV, since I am [b]well[/b] that you regard anything (or anyone) that reads from any other Bible version than the KJV as compromised , backslidden, or insert whatever other adjective you desire to cast a fellow follower of Jesus into a "less-than" status in the Eyes of God,, so I will quote from the KJV, the same Passage:

31Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

32And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Matthew 12:31-32 (KJV)

Now please, tell me where the Word says that

Of all of the sins that there are to commit, apostasy is the unpardonable sin.

I am sure you will try to exegete your way from the word "apostasy" to the unpardonable sin of blaspheming the Holy Ghost, but no where in the Word is their such a statement.

I had no intention of entering into this thread, simply because these threads are not for building up the Body, nor edification, but when I read that statement of yours, God spoke quite clearly to me, and said, "Speak out". and I'm doing that.

That is [b]wrong[/b] teaching, plain and simple.

You can bombard this thread refuting that, but it is wrong to say that "apostasy" (and I might add, your opinion of apostasy) is the unpardonable sin.

Come on Walter, quit this, this isnt right. Now if you have a burden on your heart to prophesy, who am i to say what a man or woman's burden is?

But please, for the Love of Jesus, and the Ministry of Messiah Crucified, you got to stop this, pray on it, please.

humbly and in His love I entreat you, neil

S
sermonindex

I hope your children will never depart but is this what you would say if any of these young people were "YOUR" child or children?

Yes, it is... because it is what God's Word says.

It seems that your reply is just cold-hearted, brother; especially those who will be reading this that have children who have departed (for what ever reason).

Don't pass judgement on me (calling me cold hearted) when you know nothing about me... and in the same breath call me "brother". Save that smiley face type stuff for Sunday morning.

As for those whose children have departed, I truly sympathize, however God's Word is pretty clear. What your assuming is that I am writing off anyone who "walks away" which I am not. If they depart from us then scripture tells us it is because they were never of us... and I would rather have someone depart so that we know they still need salvation than to have kids who need salvation fake for decades and die in their sins. At least this way we know where they stand, and can take the appropriate measures to make sure they hear the truth and get saved.

Jesus said, if they depart, they will return and He did not say how much time and space there would be in between departing and returning.

What?? Jesus said this? Where? Chapter & verse, please.

I think you're referring to Proverbs 22:6, and if so it was Solomon who said it, not Jesus. And I would recommend you do some studying on this to see what this verse really means.

Here's is what Matthew Henry's commentary says:

[i]Here is, 1. A great duty enjoined, particularly to those that are the parents and instructors of children, in order to the propagating of wisdom, that it may not die with them: Train up children in that age of vanity, to keep them from the sins and snares of it, in that learning age, to prepare them for what they are designed for. Catechise them; initiate them; keep them under discipline. Train them as soldiers, who are taught to handle their arms, keep rank, and observe the word of command. Train them up, not in the way they would go (the bias of their corrupt hearts would draw them aside), but in the way they should go, the way in which, if you love them, you would have them go. Train up a child according as he is capable (as some take it), with a gentle hand, as nurses feed children, little and often, Deu_6:7. 2. A good reason for it, taken from the great advantage of this care and pains with children: When they grow up, when they grow old, [b]it is to be hoped[/b], they will not depart from it. Good impressions made upon them then will abide upon them all their days. Ordinarily the vessel retains the savour with which it was first seasoned. Many indeed have departed from the good way in which they were trained up; Solomon himself did so. But early training may be a means of their recovering themselves, as it is supposed Solomon did. At least the parents will have the comfort of having done their duty and used the means.[/i]

This is not speaking about salvation! This has everything to do with child rearing and discipline... it has to do with godly instruction & wisdom. All things which can lead to true salvation, but not necessarily.

This verse is not a promise that if your child professes salvation when they're young that they will never walk away. [b]There is a difference between professing salvation... and being saved![/b] This was written thousands of years before Christ, so how could this be addressing someone who professed salvation thru Christ? It isnt.

Context, Lysa.

The other thing is this... most so-called "Christian" parents in the church today are not raising their children up in the way they should go. They take them to church, put them in worldly sinful youth groups led by some dude who doesnt have teenagers of his own. At home they dont teach their children the Bible, systematic theology, or even how to pray. They dont get involved in ministries to the homeless, lost or missions with their kids. Instead they all sit and watch TV, surf the internet all evening or play Guitar Hero.

...and then they cry because their children walked away from the faith! Well, duh!

According to scripture (and God said this, not me... so call Him cold hearted, ok!) if you have [b]truly[/b] been saved then you will [b]NOT[/b] walk away!

Simple as that.

I would highly recommend you download and listen to some Paul Washer sermons. Start with "Examine Yourself" and "Ten Indictments".

Please provide for me where Jesus said what you said He said.

Krispy

D
dunlow64God

WOW!!! :-o Flow, Holy Spirit, Flow! And may I also add OUCH!!! Thanks for that Krispy...I needed to hear it! Proud mother of a teenager. And may I also add his youth leader! :-) I also have 3 other youngins 8, 7, and 5. You hit the nail on the head! Thanks for those words! God really used you to reach me today! Hallelujah!
In Christ,
Wendy

S
sermonindex

Well... praise God! I said nothing in anger at anyone, it's just a heavy burden I have for the American church concerning it's youth.

Krispy

G
ginnyrose

Ok, now back to the 1960s, the era of time when I was a teen. To refresh your memory my generation has apostatized badly. Most are still decent, good folks but they have discarded the truth of the word for one that is more comfortable to one's carnal nature.

My generation had a lot of skilled, talented fellows. They were good public speakers, possessed great leadership skills which were admired by their peers as well as their superiors. These fellows were given positions of leadership wherever they happened to be. They were well trained in Bible, having either attended Bible Schools/Institute or church colleges. These fellows intimidated the less talented by virtue of their skills.

The era of the 60s was a turbulent time for our country. Rebellion was given a new status of respectability by being taken seriously by their superiors. The older ones listened to them, dialoged with them and surrendered to their 'concerns'. So, it happened in the church, in my own denomination.

Conflict between generations is nothing new - always has been. But it seems as though what happened in the 60s and the ensuing years is that rebellion has been given a new respectability because the youth have acquired skills in debating that will leave an older person even questioning his own convictions.

What did this generation do? They have followed a path of humanitarianism: that of getting involved in a social gospel sans the true gospel of repentance from sin.

And their children? they are bedeviled by all kinds of sins....

This is my observation from life...

ginnyrose

R
rainydaygirl

SO I have thought about this thread for a a few days and thought I would throw my thoughts into the mix. I don't know why most of the youth leave the church(structure) today but I can tell you why I did. I attended the youth group at our local church where one of the young guys who helped lead was dating or had dated most of the older teen girls in the group at one time or another. He liked to think of himself as a player. He was really cool and he use to have spitting contest and food fights with the guys. They would goof off and see who could be the grossest. We would meet on Sunday morning and again on Wednesday nights. Sundays were filled with some kind of seeker friendly teaching that would appeal to everyone. The teaching would be followed by some time of worship. Usually groups like Switch foot, News Boys, or Five Iron Frenzy would be played. After that we would break up into smaller groups and just hang out. There were a lot of clicks, and usually girlfriends and boyfriends would hang out together. On Wednesday nights we had our mid week get together that was suppose to consist of equipping us to walk in the Lord. Most Wednesday nights were actually nothing more then movie nights. The leading would bring in DVD, popcorn and sodas and we watched movies. In the summertime we had water fights and goofed off outside if it was to hot or no new movies were out. We never really studied the Bible, all the teachings that were done came from a handout sheet. Prayer was pretty much non existant, and accoutability was handled like the latest gossip. It was all about who was with who, and what they were doing. That last year that I was there, three of the girls I know got pregnant. Two of the guys got into trouble for drug use. As for me, I left because as "fun" as all that partying was a times, I learned nothing about Jesus. I was given no guidance, and I knew that if I did not leave I would end up just as watered down and worldly as the rest of the group was. I wanted Jesus not the world, so I walked away from that church(structure). Now to make things clear, I will never walk away from the true church(the body of believers who follow Jesus), just don't want anything to do with the country club...I mean local structure that calls itself church.

Not sure why others are leaving but that is why I did.
rdg

edit: Krispy said "The other thing is this... most so-called "Christian" parents in the church today are not raising their children up in the way they should go. They take them to church, put them in worldly sinful youth groups led by some dude who doesnt have teenagers of his own. At home they dont teach their children the Bible, systematic theology, or even how to pray. They dont get involved in ministries to the homeless, lost or missions with their kids. Instead they all sit and watch TV, surf the internet all evening or play Guitar Hero.
...and then they cry because their children walked away from the faith! Well, duh!"
______

I have to say that this was the case at the church that I went to.
Somethings in what you said to really think about.
rdg

L
Lysa

Lysa wrote:
I hope your children will never depart but is this what you would say if any of these young people were "YOUR" child or children?

Krispy wrote:
Yes, it is... because it is what God's Word says.

I [b]never[/b] questioned God's word, Krispy and wrong or right, I was questioning you.

I believe that we can always say, "It's what the God's word says!" The letter alone kills but it's the spirit that gives life (2 Cor 3.5-6). We are supposed to be ministers of the new testament by the spirit not just the letter.

And just for the record, I didn't call you cold-hearted. I find it interesting that I remember specifically trying to word it so it didn't sound like I was calling you cold-hearted! So I apologize if you still feel that I did.

Lysa wrote:
Jesus said, if they depart, they will return and He did not say how much time and space there would be in between departing and returning.

Krispy wrote:
What?? Jesus said this? Where? Chapter & verse, please.

You are correct, Jesus didn't say it; I don't know what I was thinking and I can't believe someone else hadn't already pointed it out! They sure should have.

About verse Prov 22.6... I [b]KNOW[/b] it doesn't guarantee salvation but it does give those of us who are trying to raise our children right... [b]hope[/b].

According to scripture ... if you have truly been saved then you will NOT walk away!

All seriousness aside... We'll save this one for another discussion!! And just for you (all in good fun), here's my Sunday smiley faces.... ;-) 8-) :-) LOL

God bless you Krispy!

S
sermonindex

The promise is this, "

Proverbs 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.
He may leave the physical church and seek a career and adopt many foolish teachings, but as he gets older those things will fall away as that which he has learnt at a young age pushes all the garbage that he once stood for while he was away from the truth. I left the Church before I was twenty and took on many stupid things, but the LORD got a hold of me as I was approaching my 40's and shook me and turned my world upside down. THAT SEED IS GOD'S INVESTMENT, it will never be wasted. Yes, that seed may fall on rocky ground, but eventually that seed will be buried by years of overgrowth and may in the latter years of it's life come to faith in Jesus Christ. Yes the seed can be eaten up by the birds, but survives the painful process of digestion gets dropped off in another location to grow in it's own fertilizer. Lets not lose faith in what and how that seed is spread. The seed will grow one way or another, even if it's in a place where we think there is no earth.

We must keep this in our minds, it's the gardener, the husbandman that takes care of the seed, he plants it, he tends to it. If it doesn't sprout, does he take out the seed from the ground? Certainly not! He just leaves it there, eventually something will come of it when the right elements have been applied. It may take years for anything to happen and most of us will have given up all hope for salvation, I think when that happens things begin to change.

God is faithful, I trust Him to be faithful, because we certainly are not. If we are found faithful, it has to be the Christ in us that is doing it.

God Bless You All.

S
sermonindex

Dear Neil (Natan4Jesus):

You stated:

[b] Of all of the sins that there are to commit, apostasy is the unpardonable sin.

Chapter and verse please.

You can bombard this thread refuting that, but it is wrong to say that "apostasy" (and I might add, your opinion of apostasy) is the unpardonable sin.

Come on Walter, quit this, this isnt right. Now if you have a burden on your heart to prophesy, who am i to say what a man or woman's burden is?

But please, for the Love of Jesus, and the Ministry of Messiah Crucified, you got to stop this, pray on it, please.

humbly and in His love I entreat you, neil
[/b]


xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


[b]My Pastor, Chuck Smith of Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa, CA. has always taught that the rejection of Jesus Christ as Lord & Savior IS the unpardonable sin.


What does the Bible teach, what does the Bible say about this issue in it's entirety?[/b]

[color=990000]In Matthew 12[/color] there is a story of a demon possessed, blind and mute man who was brought to Jesus and Jesus healed him. The pharisees heard of this healing and said that Jesus had casts out the demons by Beelzebub; the ruler of demons. ( satan himself). In other words, they said that Jesus did his work by the power of satan rather than God.

Basically they were calling evil good, and good evil and had refused to accept that Jesus was the coming messiah. This meant that their sin was the rejection of Jesus Christ as the promised messiah. They were rejecting The Way to eternal life. This meant that by choice, they were outside of God's saving grace.

Jesus responded with a series of logical statements that exposed the absurdity of their accusations. To summarize these arguments:

1. It’s against Satan’s interests to cast his own demons out because it divides his kingdom

2. If Jesus exercised demons by Beelzebul, then by whom did the sons of Israel cast them out?

3. If in fact the source of Jesus’ power was divine, then God’s kingdom was present. The unstated implication being that they should repent

Jesus concludes this rebuttal with a parable (Matthew 12:29). A strong man cannot be robbed unless he is first bound. In an ironic twist, Jesus symbolized the thief in this parable, and Satan the strong man. In effect, Jesus plundered Satan’s kingdom by robbing him of a demon possessed victim.

The messianic prophecy in[color=990000] Isaiah 49:24-26 illuminates this parable:[/color]
24. Shall the prey be taken from the mighty, or the lawful captive delivered? 25. But thus saith the Lord,[b][color=990000] Even the captives of the mighty shall be taken away[/color][/b], and the prey of the terrible shall be delivered: for I will contend with him that contendeth with thee, [b][color=990000] and I will save thy (your) children. [/color][/b]
26. And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that [b][color=990000] I the Lord am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, [/color][/b], the mighty One of Jacob.


[b]Mark’s Account

Up to this point, Matthews account provides most of the prelude to this teaching. Following Jesus’ statements about blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, Mark adds an insightful explanation that reveals Jesus’ motive for introducing the subject, “because they were saying, ‘He has an unclean Spirit’” (Mark 3:30).

This remark correlates with the previous accusations from Matthew 12:24 and Mark 3:22. Jesus’ critics had accused him of having an unclean spirit. As Jesus was anointed with the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:38), this was a slanderous accusation indeed.

[color=990000]In 1st John 5:16 [/color]John advised Christians not to pray for one who commits a sin “leading to death.”

[color=990000]In Hebrews 6:4-8 [/color]Paul, discussing fallen Christians, stated it was “impossible to renew them to repentance.”

These verses point to the obvious conclusion that sin which is not repented of is not forgiven. Furthermore, one can become hardened to the truth beyond the point of repentance. For such a person penitence is unthinkable.[/b]

Of course all have sinned (Romans 3:23). Even the most faithful stumble (1st John 1:8). Yet those who walk in the light, even though they occasionally stumble, are cleansed by the blood of Jesus (1st John 1:7).[/b]

[color=990000]Hardening of the Heart

Hardening of the heart is a progressive process. Sin grieves the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 4:30). Repeated sin, without repentance, sears one’s conscience and eventually hardens one into resisting the Holy Spirit (1st Timothy 4:2, Acts 7:51).

The hardened person exchanges the truth of God for a lie (Romans 1:25); resulting in God giving such a one up to his own impurity and depraved mind (Romans 1:24, 28). One so hardened receives a spirit of stupor, having closed eyes and deafened ears to the truth (Romans 11:8, Matthew 13:14-15).[/color]

[b][color=990000]Insulting the Spirit of grace, the hardened one ultimately disregards the blood of Christ – the only source of redemption (Hebrews 10:29, Romans 5:9, Ephesians 1:7, Colossians 1:14, 1st Peter 1:18-19).

The hardened person, whose final response to the Spirit of truth is one of rejection, never receives forgiveness because he never repents. The sin leads to eternal death because it’s never confessed. Un-repented sins of one walking in darkness are never pardoned.[/color][/b]

[b]Contents of the Heart

After discussing blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, Jesus said, “ O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh” (Matthew 12:34). A man’s words reveal his spiritual condition. One who outwardly speaks against the Holy Spirit has inwardly rejected the testimony of the Holy Spirit. The verbal rejection reveals the inward rejection.[/b]

[b][color=990000]Jesus’ warning, “for by your words you shall be justified, and by your words you shall be condemned,” ring true because words reveal the contents of the heart (Matthew 12:35-37). [/color][/b]

[b]Mission of the Holy Spirit[/b]

The Holy Spirit was sent to convict the world of sin, and bring men to Christ, whom he glorified (John 16:7-15). One who rejects the Spirit’s testimony of Christ, rejects the only grounds for forgiveness. Final, utterly complete rejection of Christ and the testimony of the Holy Spirit results in eternal death.

[b]Doctrinal scholars interpret blasphemy against the Holy Spirit not as one sin, but as a class of sins that are spiritually fatal. Sin leads to spiritual death (Romans 5:12, 6:16, James 1:15). Paul wrote, “For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life (Romans 6:23). Un-repented sin is spiritually fatal. [/b]

[color=990000]Doctrinal Conclusion

A TRUE Christian who utters a rash statement in an unbelieving moment can be forgiven IF he repents. According to 1st John 1:9, “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from unrighteousness.”

The Christian who does this does not have a seared conscience. His own words of confession reveal that his heart is not hardened to the truth. A true believer, born again and sealed by the Holy Spirit cannot lose their salvation.

They can fail, they can sin, they can backslide, yet, all their sins were paid for at Calvary. All they need to do is turn again to Jesus. No TRUE BELIEVER can Blaspheme God because All their sins were forgiven when they came to Jesus Christ. However, like Krispy indicated, only God knows who comes to Him in true belief, and the others that do not, and only mimic and repeat the sinners prayer.

If we have sons and daughters who once professed Christ, but have since walked away, we should continue to pray for them, that Christ would wrench them from darkness to light. Christ is the only One who knows the heart, the only one who knows if they are real or false Christians, if they are sheep or goats.[/color]

[b][color=990000]What is the definition of Apostacy? Websters 1828 Dictionary states:

APOS'TASY, n. [Gr. a defection, to depart.]
1. An abandonment of what one has professed; a total desertion, or departure from one's faith or religion.

2. The desertion from a party to which one has adhered.

3. Among physicians, the throwing off of exfoliated or fractured bone, or the various solution of disease.

4. An abscess.

APOS'TATE, n. [Gr.]

One who has forsaken the church, sect or profession to which he before adhered. In its original sense, applied to one who has abandoned his religion; but correctly applied also to one who abandons a political or other party.

APOS'TATE, a. False; traitorous.

APOSTAT'ICAL, a. After the manner of an apostate.

APOS'TATIZE, v.i. To abandon one's profession or church; to forsake principles or faith which one has professed; or the party to which one has been attached.

APOS'TATIZING, ppr. Abandoning a church, profession, sect or party.[/color][/b]

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

[size=x-small][b][color=993300]Neil, you also said the following:.[/color][/size][/b]


[b]I had no intention of entering into this thread, simply because these threads are not for building up the Body, nor edification, but when I read that statement of yours, God spoke quite clearly to me, and said, "Speak out". and I'm doing that.[/b]

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[size=x-small][b][color=993300]Neil, my response to you is the SAME as it has been from the BEGINNING of your entry on Sermonindex. It is not necessarily God that has access to your heart. You and I do not have the Holy Spirit without measure, like Christ did. We have it with measure. What you have quoted above, that God spoke quite clearly to you to speak out AGAINST what I posted was NOT FROM GOD.[u] It was either from your Flesh or Satan.[/u]

I have quoted what God has to say about this matter through His Word. You would do well to rely on His Word, as well, and if you "hear" anything from "God",[u] check it out with His Word before you make any foolish public statements, that go hand in hand with false prophecy, AND ACTUALLY OPPOSE HIS WORD.[/u][/color][/size][/b]


Sincerely,

Walter


Natan4Jesus wrote:
you wrote:

Of all of the sins that there are to commit, apostasy is the unpardonable sin.

Chapter and verse please.

Now, Praise God, I am very aware of what Jesus said in Matthew 12:31-32

"31 Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come".

Now thats the ESV, since I am [b]well[/b] that you regard anything (or anyone) that reads from any other Bible version than the KJV as compromised , backslidden, or insert whatever other adjective you desire to cast a fellow follower of Jesus into a "less-than" status in the Eyes of God,, so I will quote from the KJV, the same Passage:

31Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Matthew 12:31-32 (KJV)

Now please, tell me where the Word says that

Of all of the sins that there are to commit, apostasy is the unpardonable sin.

I am sure you will try to exegete your way from the word "apostasy" to the unpardonable sin of blaspheming the Holy Ghost, but no where in the Word is their such a statement.

I had no intention of entering into this thread, simply because these threads are not for building up the Body, nor edification, but when I read that statement of yours, God spoke quite clearly to me, and said, "Speak out". and I'm doing that.

That is [b]wrong[/b] teaching, plain and simple.

You can bombard this thread refuting that, but it is wrong to say that "apostasy" (and I might add, your opinion of apostasy) is the unpardonable sin.

Come on Walter, quit this, this isnt right. Now if you have a burden on your heart to prophesy, who am i to say what a man or woman's burden is?

But please, for the Love of Jesus, and the Ministry of Messiah Crucified, you got to stop this, pray on it, please.

humbly and in His love I entreat you, neil




G
ginnyrose

rdg,

Sister, God has his hand on you...you believe that, don't you? There is no other reason for you to have escaped this party unscathed...

Blessings,
ginnyrose

H
hulsey

The original post I believe was inspired by Ken Ham's new book "Already Gone: Why Your Kids Will Quit Church and What We Can Do to Stop It." I LOVE Ken Ham's ministry. I've been blessed by many of the videos that AIG puts out. I have to say, however, that I'm a little disappointed in this latest book. The statistics that Brit Beemer gathered are staggering and as far as that goes it's excellent. He included kids brought up in public, private, and home education. I guess where the disappointment comes is the minimal amount of space given to a solution.

I think they miss the heart of the problem. Sunday School should be seen as an aid to parents in their God given responsibility to bring up godly children. Instead it has taken the place of parents and is doing a terrible job. As a Sunday School teacher, and one who enjoyed it tremendously, the only qualification expected of me was: was I willing to volunteer. Willingness is extremely important but ability is every bit as important, maybe even more important.

Sunday School was originally formed to teach poor children, who didn't go to school, how to read. It was literally school on Sundays. The benefits were that as the Church supplied a free education they also were able to reach out to children and families with the Gospel. Concerns were raised at the time by people that Sunday School could potentially replace parents as the primary Biblical teachers of children.

The only notable paragraph that stood out to me in the book was this one:

"It's not just an issue of homeschooling; it is an issue of biblical home education. If our survey should teach you anything, it's that you can no longer depend on the Sunday school and youth ministries in your church to educate your kids in the things of God. In all honesty, it was never their responsibility in the first place.(This should have been their first clue that kids leaving the church in droves is not because of the failure of Sunday school, but the failure of the home. 'my opinion') This is your job; this is your responsibility; you need to step up to the plate and take charge."

I'm not for shutting down Sunday schools or youth ministries, though I am for shutting most of them down as they currently exist today. I do believe that they need to be put in their place. If we look honestly at these to cherished traditions we will admit that they are not a biblicaly appointed ministry, specifically anyway. At best they should be seen as an aid to parents to help raise their kids to be godly. Parents should also be heavily involved, the days of the 20yr old cool and hip youth minister who's more a youth than a minister need to disappear quickly from our churches. Sunday school teachers need to be qualified to teach the Bible and not the pablum that is doled out in the form of Sunday school material. In many places these two institutions just plain need to be shut down.

Just my opinion

[edit] In order to not sound like I'm totally downing the book I would say that it's got the beginnings of an excellent book but I don't believe that it was ready to be published yet. Hopefully they will print a revised version that is more than just statistical data. In response to Lyssa on page one, it's not a ploy to push homeschooling (I've read the book.). It's very balanced.

S
sermonindex

when I read this:

Neil, my response to you is the SAME as it has been from the BEGINNING of your entry on Sermonindex. It is not necessarily God that has access to your heart. You and I do not have the Holy Spirit without measure, like Christ did. We have it with measure. What you have quoted above, that God spoke quite clearly to you to speak out AGAINST what I posted was NOT FROM GOD. It was either from your Flesh or Satan.

I have quoted what God has to say about this matter through His Word. You would do well to rely on His Word, as well, and if you "hear" anything from "God", check it out with His Word before you make any foolish public statements, that go hand in hand with false prophecy, AND ACTUALLY OPPOSE HIS WORD.

I suddenly realize you are an [b]accuser, and inquistor[/b]....and that is not the Spirit of Messiah, it is the opposite, it is the spirit of anti-Messiah, as I did quote directly from Scripture.

Now what the folks reading this sad sordid exchange don't know is, that not only did you splay this venomous accusation against me on this public board, but you also chose to hector me in PM's with the same exact posts, what sort of spirit was propelling you to do that? The Holy Spirit?

I think not.

S
sermonindex

Hello, Hulsey:

I have not read the book "Already Gone" yet, I just ordered it this morning.

It seems that the answer is going back to the Bible, starting with Genesis, starting in the beginning. That is the missing link within the body of Christ today--the supremacy of Scripture.

What follows is from the advertisment from the Volume 15, issue 6 1:1 answers update from Ken Ham:


This month a new book is being released entitled “Already Gone- Why your kids will quit church and what you can do to stop it” written by Ken Ham & Brit Beemer.


Why has America’s church lost an entire generation of believers?

If you look around your church today, two-thirds of the young people sitting in the pews have already left in their hearts; soon they will be gone for good. And it’s happening in the most solid “Bible-believing” churches.

The first scientific study of its kind reveals starting facts discovered though 20,000 phone calls and detailed surveys of a thousand 20-29 year olds. These young people used to attend evangelical churches on a regular basis, but have since walked away.

THE RESULTS ARE SHOCKING!

Those who regularly attend Sunday school are:

1.\tmore likely to leave the church than those who do not.
2.\tmore likely to believe that the Bible is less true.
3.\tmore likely to defend that abortion and gay marriage should be legal
4.\tmore likely to defend premarital sex.

Of those who no longer attend church, only 1% stopped attending because they didn’t like the music.

[b][color=990000]The single most misunderstood issue among those 20-29 year olds who left the church was the age of the earth![/color][/b]

[b][color=009900]From your history classes, you will recall that in 1517, a young monk, Martin Luther, boldly nailed 95 Theses on the church door in Wittenberg, Germany. He was calling the church back to the authority of the Bible and away from the opinions and traditions of fallible man.

Four years later, Luther stood before the emperor, princes, and others in the Bishop’s Palace in Worms, Germany, where he was told to recant his theses and books. The next day, after a long night of prayer and counsel, Luther famously replied that he would not recant unless it could be shown from the Scriptures that he was in error. He is then reported to have said:

“Here I stand; I can do no other. God help me. Amen”

For years, Ken Ham and his “Answers in Genesis” has been challenging the church to stand without compromise on the authority of God’s Word, beginning in Genesis. They have insisted that Christians should be like the Bereans in Acts 17:11: “They received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out what they were taught was the truth.[/color][/b]

If you are interested, you can order the book “Already Gone” here:

[url=www.answersbookstore.com]Already Gone- Why your kids will quit church and what you can do to stop it[/url]

Hulsey, Once I read it, I will post again to let you know if we both have the saem feeling about this book.

Sincerely,

Walter


hulsey wrote:
The original post I believe was inspired by Ken Ham's new book "Already Gone: Why Your Kids Will Quit Church and What We Can Do to Stop It." I LOVE Ken Ham's ministry. I've been blessed by many of the videos that AIG puts out. I have to say, however, that I'm a little disappointed in this latest book. The statistics that Brit Beemer gathered are staggering and as far as that goes it's excellent. He included kids brought up in public, private, and home education. I guess where the disappointment comes is the minimal amount of space given to a solution.

I think they miss the heart of the problem. Sunday School should be seen as an aid to parents in their God given responsibility to bring up godly children. Instead it has taken the place of parents and is doing a terrible job. As a Sunday School teacher, and one who enjoyed it tremendously, the only qualification expected of me was: was I willing to volunteer. Willingness is extremely important but ability is every bit as important, maybe even more important.

Sunday School was originally formed to teach poor children, who didn't go to school, how to read. It was literally school on Sundays. The benefits were that as the Church supplied a free education they also were able to reach out to children and families with the Gospel. Concerns were raised at the time by people that Sunday School could potentially replace parents as the primary Biblical teachers of children.

The only notable paragraph that stood out to me in the book was this one:

"It's not just an issue of homeschooling; it is an issue of biblical home education. If our survey should teach you anything, it's that you can no longer depend on the Sunday school and youth ministries in your church to educate your kids in the things of God. In all honesty, it was never their responsibility in the first place.(This should have been their first clue that kids leaving the church in droves is not because of the failure of Sunday school, but the failure of the home. 'my opinion') This is your job; this is your responsibility; you need to step up to the plate and take charge."

I'm not for shutting down Sunday schools or youth ministries, though I am for shutting most of them down as they currently exist today. I do believe that they need to be put in their place. If we look honestly at these to cherished traditions we will admit that they are not a biblicaly appointed ministry, specifically anyway. At best they should be seen as an aid to parents to help raise their kids to be godly. Parents should also be heavily involved, the days of the 20yr old cool and hip youth minister who's more a youth than a minister need to disappear quickly from our churches. Sunday school teachers need to be qualified to teach the Bible and not the pablum that is doled out in the form of Sunday school material. In many places these two institutions just plain need to be shut down.

Just my opinion

[edit] In order to not sound like I'm totally downing the book I would say that it's got the beginnings of an excellent book but I don't believe that it was ready to be published yet. Hopefully they will print a revised version that is more than just statistical data. In response to Lyssa on page one, it's not a ploy to push homeschooling (I've read the book.). It's very balanced.

C
clintstone

the first thing that hapepens in the falling away process is APATHY , the the second is ANARCHY , then the third and final thing to falling away from God ,or it should be said falling away from the FEAR OF GOD , is APOSTACY . I know these three things are all the process of falling away , apathy , anarchy , and apostacy. Now on the training up a child in the way he should go ,thing . The best teaching i have come across on the meaning of this passage is from charles stanley ,from , Focus on the family . to train up a child in the way he should go , and when he is old he will not depart , means . First keep in mind the scripture where Jesus said that the lillies do not toil or spin , and yet solomon in all his splender was not clothed as beautiful as them , so putting on Christ and BEING who we are supposed to be as humans does not require any toiling or spinning on our part , only letting God kill us is required { crucified with Christ }. now the meaning of this passage is , " develope a thirst in your child , according to his own unique personality ,and when he is old he will not depart from it . Having a child to be thirsty for LIFE , for the life that God designed him to pursue and go after, which this is always in keeping with our own uniqueness. remember the TWO become one , in this salvation marriage. God does not put us aside but gives us each talents . So parents, and those in authority, are to DEVELOPE THE THIRST FOR LIFE in thier children, according to each way the child is supposed to go . this passage entails all the various relations that each person will have in Life and that the thirst for life, in them , if developed in each of us as children will lead us all the way through life and we will not depart from the developed thirts as long as the thirst that is developed is the right way for us and not someone elses selfish manipulated idea of who we are . I love the fact that we are all unique and that, by birth ,we ALL QUALIFY for being well able to please and Glorify God , and do this according to our individual personalities , talents and bents . Focus , for parents and gaurdians of children needs to be on the childs , way he should go and developing a thirst in that child to Go that way . Jesus said blessed are they that hunger and thirst for being right with Love [ God ] for they shall be filled . Filled with a good LIFE that noone in their right minds would ever depart from . peoples ideas of departure are probably much different than Gods > I personally have left 7 churches , but i have not left my developed thirst for the way i need to go and God will guide me , and save me to the utmost , because i know that i have the ernest of my inheritance . my main point is training a child is simply , causing the child to be thirsty for finding his own way of being all that God calls him to be , ansd this is always in keeping with the childs own calling , and this calling comes about naturally when the thirst for it is there.

S
sermonindex

All seriousness aside... We'll save this one for another discussion!! And just for you (all in good fun), here's my Sunday smiley faces.... LOL

God bless you Krispy!

Lysa... thank you thank you thank you! Re-reading what I posted I was afraid you would think I was mad and ranting, when in fact I wasn't!

Love ya, sister!

Krispy

L
Lysa

Here is some info that is pertinent to this thread!! I am not wanting to resurrect this thread but I did not know if this warranted a "new" thread...

Tomorrow night: Thursday, July 9th
Paul Crouch, Jr. hosts [b][i]"Creation, Evolution and God In Science Night"[/i] with Dr. Hugh Ross[/b], Dr. Carl Baugh, Eric Hovind, Professor John Bloom and Sean McDowell in Costa Mesa, CA.

Praise The Lord airs at 7:00 PM Pacific Time (GMT -8:00) on a TBN station near you!
(I live in Eastern Time so it will air Thursday night here at 10 PM and will repeat the episode the next night; Friday night (7/10) at 5:00 PM)

__________
Lysa here... I thought for those who had not heard Dr. Ross before that they can see him and the others in action and see for yourself.

God bless you!!!

S
sermonindex

Young people are leaving the church, for the same reason old people are.

Jer 10:21 For the pastors are become brutish, and have not sought the LORD: therefore they shall not prosper, and all their flocks shall be scattered. (This scattering is happening now by the way)

Jer 12:10 Many pastors have destroyed my vineyard, they have trodden my portion under foot, they have made my pleasant portion a desolate wilderness.

Jer 23:1-2 Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD. 2 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.

Eze 34:10 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them.

The Lord is delivering his flock from those who were to have taught them.

Old Joe

S
sermonindex


To Lysa:

Hugh Ross (AKA Huge Loss) is on the opposite side of the issue. He does not believe the explanation of Genesis, provided by God, that was given to Moses, that is found in the Bible. Hugh has found it necessary to add billions of years to the time frame of creation,and at the same time eliminate the glory, and the majesty and the power of our Creator God.

Hugh is the enemy of the Gospel and Jesus Christ. He has almost single handedly done his very best to replace the literal 6 days of creation with billions of years. Yet, the Biblical account states that Jesus Christ[b][color=990000] spoke all things into existence out of nothing. (Hebrews 11:3)


The truth of recent creation, combined with the truth of the global cataclysmic flood in the days of Noah, is the real key to the true scientific understanding of earth history. The doctrine of special creation pervades all the rest of the Bible and is the real foundation of all other truth, especially including all the great doctrines of the Christian faith. The evolutionary concept of history, on the other hand, is Satan’s greatest weapon in his long war against God, serving as the root of every false philosophy and evil practice known to man. [/color][/b]

[b]Please, do not expose yourselves, or your children to the wiles of Hugh Ross.[/b]

Sincerely,



Lysa wrote:
Here is some info that is pertinent to this thread!! I am not wanting to resurrect this thread but I did not know if this warranted a "new" thread...

Tomorrow night: Thursday, July 9th
Paul Crouch, Jr. hosts [b][i]"Creation, Evolution and God In Science Night"[/i] with Dr. Hugh Ross[/b], Dr. Carl Baugh, Eric Hovind, Professor John Bloom and Sean McDowell in Costa Mesa, CA.

Praise The Lord airs at 7:00 PM Pacific Time (GMT -8:00) on a TBN station near you!
(I live in Eastern Time so it will air Thursday night here at 10 PM and will repeat the episode the next night; Friday night (7/10) at 5:00 PM)

__________
Lysa here... I thought for those who had not heard Dr. Ross before that they can see him and the others in action and see for yourself.

God bless you!!!

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