A question about repentance and grace

Hi folks,

I have a question that's very serious for me. I can't ever seem to find the answer but maybe someone knows the answer.

The Bible says that we're by grace through faith and not of ourselves. When I read elsewhere in the Bible though, we're told to repent. For example, "...unless you repent, you will all likewise perish" (Luke 13:3).

How is it that we must repent and yet we're saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves? It seems to me that if we're required to repent, then it isn't much of grace.

Another issue I'm having that is somewhat related is in 1st John.

I don't understand how it can say "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us" (1 john 1:8) and at the same time also go on to say, "No one who is born of God practices sin..." 1 john 3:9.

I also don't understand why Scripture will use the word "practice." How many times can I sin and in how long of a period of time before I'm in the zone of "practicing a sin"?

I really want to take scripture in it's plain meaning but when I do, I run into these walls and I hate it.

If only I could believe I was going to heaven because I'm saved by grace through faith, I'd be so happy.

Thanks

great reply hhhmmm, i just read first john twice last week and from what i know is this when it says he who is born of god does not sin, it means in the greek language i believe that he who continues in sin as a habit or as a lifestyle. I would say practices could mean he who does as a lifestyle or sins for the enjoyment of it or he who loves to sin, If we lives as a lifestyle sinning on a continued basis without repentance without a desire to turn from it and do it without any godly sorrow then i guess he is saying you our not saved or born again and never have been. I take john not as an example of someone losing salvation but as evidence of a sheep and a goat. Practice sure sounds like sin as a lifestyle, to practice something, like i practice baseball to get better, its like you our trying and wanting to sin, so he might be saying that the born again believer does not practice sin at all, might fall but does not want to fall. If i confused you i am sorry but that is how i take it and how i have heard it defined.

Hi Paul,

(This post turned out to be longer than it felt when I was writing. Thanks for your patience.)

Your questions are all covered from a different angle, in Alan Martin's first Barnsdall Revival conference address, and he does quote from 1 John. But don't stop there! [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=18721]True Salvation: The Righteousness of God in man[/url].

I would say, though, that his masterful presentation is so rich, that it cannot be digested in one session. Listen to it and stop when you hear something you've not understood previously, just as you would when reading your Bible, and let God lead you in further Bible study around that key word or thought.

I'm trying to transcribe that message, and I've realised that because he is quoting from memory, he is transposing the order of some of the words. It is, though, the KJV rather than another translation which he is remembering.

You will find, therefore, that 'practises' sin is not KJV. (You might know that already.)

hmmhmm said

i encourage you to read and pray and ask God show you, he will when the time is right. Have an open heart and prayerfully and humbly come to the scriptures and God will show you

On your question about repentance, I know exactly what you mean, however, repentance is the essential response to [u]conviction of[/u] sin. If you are not sensing such conviction, you cannot honestly repent. But, you can [i]ask God for[/i] conviction of sin, and you do need to repent. You [u]need[/u] repentance to [u]work[/u] in you.

Basically, we all do what we want, until we submit ourselves to God's agenda, and this instinctive 'I do what I like' ('Ye are gods' John 10:34) will always be with us, unless we make daily choices to [i][b]desire[/b][/i] [u]His[/u] 'will' (desires) (Luke 22:15) above our own [u]and to do it[/u]. Do we desire to have Christ sitting at our table, supping with us? What could prevent [u]Him[/u] from so doing, except sin?

Repentance is a real spiritual event, through which God makes many other spiritual truths [i][b]work[/i][/b] in our lives in our personal experience, thus giving us a real testimony about Jesus Christ Himself.

Repentance is not a work. It is a response to the working of the Spirit of Truth in our lives. Also, it is God's most gentle way of separating us from our pride and hypocrisy. And, it is the dynamic through which we experience a sense of inclusion in the death which Christ died - His broken heart and His wounded side.

Please read these two short extracts from Oswald Chambers' My Utmost for His Highest, and ponder on the distinctions he makes between objective truth, and the apprehension / comprehension (or conscious experience of it) by the believer of that objective truth. (There is a world of difference between [i]seeing[/i] what he is getting at, and actually being one who can say 'this is my experience of God'.

[url=http://www.myutmost.org/10/1028.html]Justification by Faith[/url]

[url=http://www.myutmost.org/12/1228.html]Continuous Conversion[/url]

One of the ways you will know that you are on the right track, is when you find yourself recognising that other believers have been through what you have been through, and have come out of the experience with a knowledge of God like yours. You find yourself saying 'we know'. This is the witness of the Spirit of Truth, to which the scripture also attests.

Coming to terms with what it says about 'us', that we have to accept the sentence of death in ourselves (2 Cor 1:9), to experience Rom 6:4, is a very humbling experience, but, it is also very freeing from all dissimulation, because while we are kidding ourselves that we don't need this or that which Jesus said we did, God is always looking on our hearts, and He is not deceived by one word of protestation that comes out of our mouths (James 3:10, Matt 15:18, 19). It should make us blush to remember that He knows every single detail about us, and every thought we are about to think, were it not that we have found Him just as faithful to forgive us our sins, and to plunge us into His death through Jesus Christ, and deliver us into the kingdom of light. (John 3:21, Col 1:13)

I'm listening now to a messaage by Norman Meeten, which complements Alan Martin's exposition, called [url=http://www.newcovenanttapes.co.uk/_mp3/NL2008/NL0807.mp3]The Outworking of the Holy Spirit[/url]. He covers repentance [i]thoroughly[/i], when he gets to it, just before the middle. (There are a couple of scratchy places in this recording, but they soon pass.)

Blessings, brother. You are on the right track to be grappling with these great truths, and making them yours, early in your Christian life.

amen

what does your conciense tell you in light of scripture? no one can tell you, only God. It depends on how close we are to the Lord and his light, what he shows us, somethings may be very sinful to me, but to someone just saved it might not be since they have not seen it yet. But it does say no one born of God practice sin.

Practice=poieo {poy-eh'-o}
Meaning: 1) to make 1a) with the names of things made, to produce, construct, form, fashion, etc. 1b) to be the authors of, the cause 1c) to make ready, to prepare 1d) to produce, bear, shoot forth 1e) to acquire, to provide a thing for one's self 1f) to make a thing out of something 1g) to (make i.e.) render one anything 1g1) to (make i.e.) constitute or appoint one anything, to appoint or ordain one that 1g2) to (make i.e.) declare one anything 1h) to put one forth, to lead him out 1i) to make one do something 1i1) cause one to 1j) to be the authors of a thing (to cause, bring about) 2) to do 2a) to act rightly, do well 2a1) to carry out, to execute 2b) to do a thing unto one 2b1) to do to one 2c) with designation of time: to pass, spend 2d) to celebrate, keep 2d1) to make ready, and so at the same time to institute, the celebration of the passover 2e) to perform: to a promise

and remembering that John wrote this letter to a church where some gnostic teachings where trying to overtake it becomes clearer, some gnostics taught that one can believe and after that it does not matter how much you sin because once you are saved you can never lose your salvation no matter how you live, and john i think addressed this in this letter. This is just my personal opinion, so i encourage you to read and pray and ask God show you, he will when the time is right. Have an open heart and prayerfully and humbly come to the scriptures and God will show you great things.

repentance is needful and biblical.

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who bewitched you not to obey the truth, to whom before your eyes Jesus Christ was written among you crucified?
Gal 3:2 This only I would learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, do you now perfect yourself in the flesh?
Gal 3:4 Did you suffer so many things in vain, if indeed it is even in vain?
Gal 3:5 Then He supplying the Spirit to you and working powerful works in you, is it by works of the law, or by hearing of faith?
Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness.

How is it that men teach that Righteousness can be walked in and attained by our own efforts? We are saved by the Spirit and we are sanctified by the Spirit, in each case it is a work of the Spirit. Saving faith and daily faith both come from the Spirit of God. In the presence of God, the genuine presence of God(This is the work of the Holy Spirit) we are changed. All of man's changes that are empowered by his own efforts lead not to righteousness but to utter failure or self-righteousness.........brother Frank

Greetings brother PaulWest,

Please correct me if I'm misunderstanding you. I am interested in extracting the essential component of meaningful repentance, from what you wrote.

When we ... finally surrender to all of our efforts of repentance and struggling against sin, God ...

We are already dead in Christ, because we were crucified in Him when God layed Him on the cross. Do you really believe this?

A new nature exists within us now that deplores sin, hates the very idea of sinning...and everyone who has been genuinely converted and is reading this knows exactly what I am saying.

God will at this very moment of profound weakness grant us the insight of what it means to be "in Christ" and how He alone is our Righteousness, our Strength, our Sanctifier. Then we will have the victory, because the victory is not intrinsic to ourselves, but the Living Christ in us, made perfect in our weakness.

Yes, 'victory is not intrinsic to ourselves'. Nevertheless, being dead, it is the only victory the crucified 'I' can enjoy. 'I' am [u]now[/u] included in Christ's victory. [u]His[/u] victory becomes [i][b]mine[/i][/b], doesn't it? 1 Cor 15:57

Thanks for your answer, Paul.

I am unable to die, because I am already dead, and reckon myself so.

Thus, when a believer discovers that the death of Christ was no only substitutionary with regard to his [i]sins[/i], he is not as ready to plunge into the death of Christ with Him, as he was to receive forgiveness, and a questionable promise of eternal life. Even for all the great teaching I came up under, I didn't understand what was been preached. It was not until I recognised the gulf between my believing and my experience of salvation, that I gladly abandoned myself to being grafted into His death.

I believe we are already dead and hid with Christ in God, [b]and God is merely waiting for us to reckon ourselves as such[/b], to concede and yield to the Holy Spirit...

And in Phil 3:3, 7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. 8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things [but] loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them [but] dung, that I may win Christ, 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: 10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, [b]being made conformable unto his death[/b]...

I still don't see the answer to my question. How can we be saved by grace and yet must repent? I don't deny that the Bible says, "Repent!" Yet, this is a seeming contadiction to me. If it's by grace, how come the Bible also says we must repent? I'm assuming that if salvation is "the gift of God" as the Bible says, then why must we repent to get a gift? That sounds more like a wage to me.

People are looking up the greek and hebrew words to define what grace or repentance is but how come God doesn't say in the English Bible that we ought to do this? Is there a defintion of what repentence or grace is in the Bible? If not, why not? Aren't these things the most important things ever? Doesn't our souls depend upon these things? Why would God not make it more clearer than He has by defining (without using greek or hebrew) what grace and repentance is?

"I don't deny that the Bible says, "Repent!" Yet, this is a seeming contadiction to me. If it's by grace, how come the Bible also says we must repent?" paulmcg1

Hi. In my opinion repentance is a form of grace. In order to be forgiven we must ask to be forgiven. Grace is not for the unrepentant. It is for those who have been convicted and enlightened to their sin first and foremost, THEN via conviction we ask to be forgiven of our offense by the atonement of Christ. Grace is God's forgiveness of our sins but grace is also the call for us to repent and accept what Christ did for us. You cannot accept Christ if you are not willing to repent, otherwise you will not know why He died in the first place. The law and Christ Himself told us what sin was. So we can either reject sin and accept His atonement or we can continue on. To me Christ and repentance go hand in hand for we cannot know Christ and accept atonement unless we believe what He said was sin and is sin, reject it, and accept His payment by the grace of His Father who gave Him over.... not to mention The Son's own willingness to give Himself over. Grace came by the Father calling on His Son to come into this world, teach us, and die as a sacrificial atonement.. and grace came by Christ's willingness to come here and do just that. This was free, we did nothing to prompt this sovereign action by God and His Son. It was their plan, graciously given.

Take for example, those who have children want their children to understand the difference between right and wrong. How do they know this unless they are wooed by their parents and taught this difference? A parent can forgive their teenager for doing something wrong but this, in and of itself, does the parent nor the teenager any good if they continue in rebellion as if they have been taught nothing. God's grace in fact gave us the law. Without it we would not know our offense. Why give the law for conviction if grace will not forgive on the other end?? Grace is the forgiveness and mercy of God to the repentant heart when it is enlightened to the offense to God. The gift of salvation was Christ himself, we didn't ask for Christ to be the atonement gift.... HE WAS INDEED GIVEN FREELY. Salvation is not a gift in and of itself, if it were God would not have needed to crush His Son for our benefit. My view is that Christ is the gift, salvation is the the reward of that gift. God gave us His Son via grace to atone for our sins BUT how do we know what is atoned for if we don't see the offense and want to turn from it?? Why would Christ feel it necessary to tell us what sin was if He didn't want us to know of this and turn from it? Christ wants us to reject sin and ask for His atonement in faith. In my view we can't reject sin without repenting of the offense... and we can't accept His sacrifice without knowing the grace of the Father who gave His Son over to be the penalty, a penalty no one ever asked to be done for us.

Who knew that the Father's Son was necessary for atonement? No one ever asked for it, no one ever thought of it!! It was God's sovereign plan to give us this gift, it was His idea... no man can claim this grace.... No man can say 'Okay God I have an idea, how about you give over your Son to die for us and then maybe we'll comply... maybe we'll see sin for what it is and turn from it'. It was His grace that gave us the gift of Christ and we cannot see this gift unless we know what it was for and why it was done for us.

[color=003399]Romans 2 NKJV

Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, [i][b]not knowing that [u]the goodness of God leads you to repentance[/u]?[/i][/b]

But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who "will render to each one according to his deeds": eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; [u]but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness[/u] -- indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; ... vv 4 - 9a

Matthew 3:7
But when [John the Baptist] saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to [u]flee from the wrath to come[/u]?

Acts 17 KJV
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; [u]but now commandeth all men every where to repent[/u]: because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man whom he hath ordained; [whereof] he hath given assurance unto all [men], in that he hath raised him from the dead.

1 Thess 1:2 - 10
We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers; remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father; knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake. And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, [u]having received the word[/u] in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost: so that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia.

For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing. For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how [u]ye turned to God from idols[/u] to serve the living and true God; and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] [b]Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come[/b].

Acts 2
22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: [b]Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God[/b], ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it...

36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men [and] brethren, what shall we do?

Then Peter said unto them, [u]Repent[/b], and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Then [u]they that gladly received his word[/u] were baptized: and the same day there were added [unto them] about three thousand souls. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. [/color]

In a nutshell, if there is sin in your life past or present, from which you have [i][b]not turned[/i][/b], then true repentance will enable you to feel both clean from your past, and empowered to cease that/those sin(s)from that moment on.

Then, you'll know you have repented, because you'll have the fruit of repentance in your life.

That's quite difficult to define, but don't forget restitution if it's relevant to your relationship with other people (which would mean it is relevant to God, since it's His idea in the first place), or, major changes in the way your life looks to observers, as a testimony to them that God has changed [u]your heart[/u].

[u]Eternal[/u] life is a free gift, but, we have been freed from sin (through repentance and faith and whatever healing/salvation is necessary) to walk in newness of life - righteousness, truth, and good works - while we're still on this earth. This is where eternal life begins.

[color=003399]Luke 24
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, and said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: [u]and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name[/u] among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.[/color]

Remember... when Paul was writing to Israel indirectly through his letter to the Romans, he was writing to a nation who had had [i][b]only repentance[/i][/b] preached to them by both John the Baptist and Jesus. This was a new message for Jews. They had never before been asked to [i]care[/i] about their sins enough to stop sinning, and still it was impossible, unless Jesus had spoken to them, healed them or delivered them. All that the law had done was bring sin to their attention.

Those in Israel who were watching for their Messiah were ready in their hearts. If He said 'repent' - they repented!

Thus, when Paul writes in Romans 10, he doesn't even mention repentance, but notice, Peter put it [u]first[/u] to the Jews present, who had come from other countries, on the day of Pentecost. But, the resurrection of Jesus Christ had eclipsed every other sign from God, beyond all imagination. A MAN had risen from death without any other intermediary, and been seen by over 500 people at once. As Jesus had said to James 'Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed.

John continues 20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: but these are written, [u]that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name[/u]. (1 Peter 1:8)

Resurrection was a key Jewish belief, but everyone had thought it wouldn't happen until after they had all died physically, like what Martha said to Jesus in John 11.

But, [u]we[/u] [i]must[/i] accept the sentence of death upon [u]sin[/u] our lives. Repentance is the natural outflowing of our individual realisation that we are worthy only of eternal death because of sin, but Christ has saved us from [i]that[/i] death.

In response to repentance and faith, He can give the Holy Spirit to enable us to live free from sin - as others have explained earlier in the thread.

Repentance and faith are both gifts from God, and if we don't feel any of either of them, just as James said 'if any man lack wisdom, let him ask' we too, can ask our gracious God for repentance and faith, or, faith and repentance. He will understand the seeking of an honest heart, and He will reward it appropriately. Heb 11:6.

I hope this post doesn't seem like more woffle. I suspect if it does, that you may need to take some serious time out of your normal routine - even just one day - to focus on God and lie face down in His presence until you hear what you need to hear from Him.

Regarding a definition of repentance, a word search on it in the Old Testament brings up 45 entries in the KJV, which may give you some direction.

There is also this message in which Ron Bailey traces what we can understand by 'repentance' based on what we find in scripture only.

[url=http://mp3.biblebase.com/download.php?file=19]Repentance[/url]

Overcoming the power and penalty of sin, doesn't seem to have anything to do with not sinning anymore.

Could you explain in a few more words more of what you mean?

Thank you.

“How is it that we must repent and yet we're saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves? It seems to me that if we're required to repent, then it isn't much of grace.”

According to the Scriptures, turning from sin is compatible with grace and mercy. God graciously and mercifully pardons those who forsake their sin:

“He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and [b]forsaketh[/b] them shall have [b]mercy[/b].” Proverbs 28:13

“Let the wicked [b]forsake[/b] his way and the unrightous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and he will have [b]mercy[/b] upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly [b]pardon[/b].” Isaiah 55:7

Grace is unmerited favor. Mercy is when you are not treated the way you deserve. Even those who turn from their sins still deserve hell. They do not deserve heaven or deserve forgiveness. Therefore it is not a “wage”. Since those who repent still deserve hell, their forgiveness is still of grace and mercy.

“All Christians (those whose identities are in Christ) are dead to the law through the death of Christ. Therefore they are not subject to the law. To the law, the Christian is dead. They CANNOT break the law, and so therefore they CANNOT sin! At all! There is no way a true Christian can sin because sin is transgression of the law”

Am I reading this wrong, or are you saying that if a Christian lies, steals, commits adultery, or commits murder, that it is not a sin for them? If a Christian does not love God or does not love their neighbor, aren't they sinning? Are you saying that Christians are not obligated to obey God? Only unbelievers are obligated to love God and love their neighbor, but Christians are not obligated to do so?

What about these passages given to Christians?

“Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.” Romans 13:8

“We [b]ought[/b] to obey God…” Acts 5:29

“He that saith he abideth in him [b]ought[/b] himself also so to walk, even as he walked.” 1 John 2:6

“Beloved, if God so loved us, we [b]ought[/b] also to love one another.” 1 John 4:11

If Christians are not under obligation to obey the law of God, how is it possible for Christians to keep the commandments? Just as you argued, you cannot break the law if you are not under the law, likewise you cannot keep the commandments if you are not under the commandments.

And hereby we do know that we know him, if [b]we keep his commandments[/b].” 1 John 2:3

“And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because [b]we keep his commandments[/b], and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.” 1 John 3:22

“Nor is repentance a synonym for keeping the law, as so many unwittingly affirm. Repentance is, as UncleBert said, the turning to Jesus Christ for salvation and safety. It is conversion. It is when a sinner turns from trying to work his own way to righteousness and SUBMITS to the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD IN CHRIST JESUS.”

Does that mean that repentance is not turning from sin? Doesn’t the Bible talk about repenting of sin, not merely repenting of self-righteousness?

Were the people in the Old Testament saved a different way than us?

“He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.” Proverbs 28:13

“Let the wicked forsake his way and the unrightous man his thoughts: and let him return utno the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.” Isaiah 55:7

According to the Scriptures, forsaking your sin is not incompatible with God’s mercy, but is actually a condition of God’s mercy. God offers mercy and pardon to those who forsake their sin. This is salvation by grace and mercy, through repentance and faith.

We are justified by God's grace and mercy. Grace is giving what someone does not deserve, mercy is withholding what a person does deserve. When we forsake our sin and believe in Jesus, God withholds what we deserve (punishment), that is mercy, and God gives us what we do not deserve (forgiveness) that is grace.

I have heard of dispensationalism, but didn’t Paul argue that Abraham was saved by faith? That means that those in the Old Testament were not under some "covenant of works". Doesn’t that mean that the way of salvation in the Old Testament is the same as the New? If the people in the Old Testament needed to forsake their sin to find mercy, then those under the New Testament need to forsake their sin to find mercy, or else there are different ways of getting saved. A person must either believe in repenting of sins in order to get saved, or they must believe in dispensationalism.

But all repentance is not towards the work of salvation ie justification. Most is towards sanctification and agreeing with God. The bible does not say "I repent you" it says to us "repent". "you repent"!

"But all repentance is not towards the work of salvation ie justification. Most is towards sanctification and agreeing with God. The bible does not say "I repent you" it says to us "repent". "you repent"!" Greg

I was listening to Paul Washer talk about what 'confession' means as in 'if we confess our sins'. And he explains about how it is agreement with God concerning the conviction of our sin. I've never heard it explained this way but I knew exactly what he was talking about when he said it. To not acknowledge the conviction of our sin is to deny what God says about the offense. This was in the context of regeneration and not justification by faith.

But in terms of justification by faith or what many refer to 'grace', I think many would agree that a big problem with the mainstream church is the super-expedient simple prayer asking for Jesus to come into our heart without any meaningful acknowledgement or repentance of sin. In these cases it would seem that the death of Jesus is being totally disregarded in terms of sin and salvation. And unless one truly understands this then Jesus is just a name someone speaks and not a Savior to receive and behold. The grace of God gives us the ability to choose repentance and receive the gift of His Son. This is His sovereign idea and plan and it's all freely given. To me this is all oriented to grace, and this is why I believe repentance is involved in grace. The plan for our salvation was His idea out of His love for us, not our idea out of any love for Him. The bible says He chose us first. He didn't have to, so to me this is all grace.

The faith that justifies in my view is the revelation and unequivocal belief that Jesus is who He says He is, and did what the bible says He did, and accept this as truth. Christ did not die for us to accept salvation yet continue in sin as if we never learned or were convicted of anything and want change in our lives. So repentance is a necessary state of heart in accepting the Savior who received His Father's wrath because sin is that serious to Him.

Hi trufaithsav,

If Christians are not under obligation to obey the law of God, how is it possible for Christians to keep the commandments? Just as you argued, you cannot break the law if you are not under the law, likewise you cannot keep the commandments if you are not under the commandments.

Another question has to do with how we ever define 'sins'.

I have heard that 'keep the law' is the way Jewish lawkeeping is described in the New Testament, but that believers [i]fulfil[/i] the law. Did you ever consdier that?

Luke 11:28; John 8:52; John 14:15, 21, 23, 24; John 15:10; 1 Cor 7:19.

It seems that the apostles are talking about teaching which they heard from Jesus, or was passed on to them which Jesus had taught, or, which God through the Holy Spirit made known to them after Pentecost; [u]not[/u] 'the law'. But, as the law reveals to us God's heart, we can be certain that He could say nothing under the New Covenant, which was incompatible with the heart and meaning of the Old Covenant.

Rom 8:4; Gal 5:14; Rom 2:27; Gal 6:2; James 2:8.

The first verses of Romans 10 distinguishes between the way Jews kept the law apart from Christ, and the righteousness which comes through faith in His everlasting atonement.

[color=336699]2 Cor 5:14
For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And [that] he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we [him] no more.

17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

18 And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech [you] by us: we pray [you] in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. [/color]

Reconcliation with God requires repentance to convince Him that we are ready - as Paul Washer would put it - to change our relationship with sin. For it is this change in our relationship with sin, which enables God to facilitate our change in relationship with Him.

Someone I knew hung themselves 2 nights ago.

I often think of my own death.

Yet, so many people that are supposed to be minsters, can't minster to me.

What do I need to do to be saved for sure?

Why is this so complex and confusing?

Where I go for eternity is the most important thing and yet I can't find anyone who can show me how to be saved.

I've asked God many times to make me a real Christian if I'm not.

I've asked Him many times to save me if I'm not.

I've told Him many times that I'm afraid to die and afraid of hell.

Yet, nothing changes. I still think I'm not a Christian and not saved. I'm scared to die and scared of hell.

I don't know what to do.

Hello paulmcg1,

I too, am sorry to hear about your friend. One feels shakey when this kind of news arrives.

What hmmhmm has said is very good. I don't want to add to it, although it may look as if I am.

What I want to say is, that this morning when I was writing a post, and looking at the beginning of Romans 10, I was struck by v 4 - For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that [u]believeth[/u].

When my mother died, I understood something about the finality of death, which I had never quite grasped about the death of Jesus. The disciples really did think He was never coming back. Although He had told them He would rise again on the third day, more than once, they simply could not understand what this meant.

Likewise, for us to [u]understand[/u] that the death of Jesus Christ really took our sins to the grave, conquered death and destroyed the devil, and that that amazing feat need be acknowledged by us only through [i]faith[/i], genuinely stops the natural man/mind in its tracks. 1 Cor 1:21 God has determined that we cannot be saved without faith. There is nothing we can do about that. He's made it non-negotiable, by ensuring He Himself cannot be found through natural wisdom - that fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil - that tree to which He himself laid the axe to its root.

Then, because He was sinless (apart from the sin He bore [i]for[/i] us), He rose again, and still the disciples were unsure how to deal with Him. He would arrive saying Do not fear, or, Peace to you, and they hardly dare believe it really was the Jesus they had lived with for over three years.

Equally a challenge to the natural mind, is for us to 'get' that all He accomplished 2000 years ago, is ours for no money, no toil, no deal - except .... we believe.

But I promise you that God LOVES FAITH. If you read the gospels looking at how Jesus responded when people would not 'believe', you see it was the one thing that made Him angry or utterly exasperated. In turn, [u]if[/u] we believe, He will give you such a certain peace, you cannot doubt that it is from Him.

However, He knows when you are being wholehearted and single-eyed, and will coax you along until you can joyfully throw yourself into His arms on His terms for the free gift of His life. If you have asked Him to save you many times before, that's okay. It is okay to refresh your commitment to Him every day. It is okay to be filled with the Spirit every day. It is okay to repent seven times a day to only one person (never mind the others you've upset) because Jesus said so - knowing that some of us sometimes will have to do just that, and there is a commensurate need for forgiveness to be forthcoming from us to our fellow man, as we desire God to forgive us whenever we feel the need of His grace in this.

The battling that hmmhmm mentioned is here, in 2 Cor 10:3, 4, 5, 6.

I don't know if you've listened to the other audios I've posted earlier in the thread, but although it is quite long, I really do recommend Paul Washer's [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=16678]The True Gospel[/url]. It's on video on youtube as well.

I repeat what Alan Martin said in his talk True Salvation: The Righteousness of God in Man - 'you've been looking at your flesh'. This will not help us to have faith. There is a need to look away from ourselves, to the Lord, knowing that if something matters to us (like your salvation does to you), then it matters to Him.

Years ago, I was very comforted to hear GW North say something along these lines 'Don't you realise He has fought all your battles for you? The victory is already won!' Somehow, those words enabled me to rest in that truth. You'll find it here:

Isaiah 40:1 Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God. 2 Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD'S hand double for all her sins. 3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. 4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain: 5 And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see [it] together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken [it].

comfortably = to the heart

These are the verses quoted by John the Baptist in Luke 3:4, 5, 6. Mark 1:1, 2, 3, 4. Psa 118:19

He is your Deliverer.

Read about king David. Often he went into battle. praising the Lord. We also must find a way to 'stand still, and see the salvation of God' - to stop fretting.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Please encourage your own heart with the truth of God's written word, knowing it is but one manifestation of the whole word of God in Jesus Christ. John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

EDIT: I'm not saying you're not saved, but salvation is in three tenses - was, is and will be. The 'being saved' every day, is where we have to live. Today is the day of salvation ... every day. 2 Cor 6:2

Logic said

Don't confuse human weakness/frailty with sin;
if you can't help it, it is not a sin.

And if our bodies have been deadened by the experiences of sin, or sins against us, there is hope for our restoration in this verse: Rom 8:11.

Yes, the flesh is weak, but it is not - as you already said - uncontrollable. This is clear from 2 Cor 10:3 - 6. Victory over sin is a matter of applying the death of Jesus Christ to ourselves - Paul the apostle calls it 'reckon yourselves dead' (to sin), and to the world. Gal 2:20. Often a battle in the mind, and with pride, and more often with bondage and demons, precedes our capitulation to God's provision in this area of our living.

Lastly, 'bondage' has a spiritual component. It's not merely that the flesh is weak. True, the Holy Spirit is stronger than any demon, but, often a demon's mindset has become our own, at a time when we didn't recognise certain throughts as temptation, or sinful. Some evil spirits will go on their own, if we receive more and more of the life of Christ into conscious daily living, but others need to be sent away by the command of one who has spiritual authority to use the name of Jesus effectively, before the Holy Spirit can [u]fill[/u] and heal that part of the person's life, such that the temptation loses its power, and the sin ceases almost effortlessly (but not without our conscious co-operation with God in the matter).

If every natural effort has been made to control a certain behaviour, there is [u]no[/u] shame in asking a more mature Christian (an elder or experieinced minister), for appropriate prayer to be released from bondage. This should not be an occasion which leads to greater bondage. If it does, then it may indicate the person who prayed lacks spiritual authority, despite having a 'position' in the church. Therefore, use some spiritual intelligence, and ask God from whom to request prayer. Don't let just anyone lay hands on your head either, as this can be a way to [i]receive[/i] and evil spirit, if that person is not in evident fellowship with God.

What is evidence of fellowship with God? That's another post.

Dear Brother Paul, may Our Savior be with you and may our prayers comfort you. The only advice I can give is try to keep this simple. I wasn't saved by doctrine and I'm glad that I didn't know the debates thereof. This sounds like a deep spiritual battle that involves fear. I think the honest pleading, seeking, and crying out to God is the raw sincerity of heart that doctrine cannot lend to. Quite simply Jesus Himself promises this in Matt 7:7-8

7Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

8For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

Also, I have been comforted in times of struggle by reading the struggles of David in Psalms with God's mercy not far behind. He was a man after God's own heart yet had the same groanings as you at times. David was never forsaken, neither will you be. The Holy Spirit documents David's struggle for a reason, let it be known that a man after God's own heart groaned as you groan. Fear is a terrible thing, it can grip you and try to hold you... fear of hell can be a natural tendency but instead of focusing on the fear of your eternal state, let me humbly suggest that you put that aside and seek God for Him. Seek Him because you love Him and desperately want Him to be your life, your truth, your way... seek Him because you want nothing more than to know Him intimately in His Son. Wanting to know God implies you do not want to offend Him and He knows this. Take comfort, people here are praying and I will put your name on every prayer list I can think of.....those who I know are earnest lovers of souls. Let go of your intellectual confusion on doctrine, the bible promises that the Spirit will lead you to all truth. Let go of your own strength to figure this out and trust the simple promises that help is on the way. We love you Paul.... we love you!!! God loves you. This is a struggle many a man/woman have dealt with... you are not alone.

paulmcg1,

If you think that it is possible you have never been saved, the best and safest thing to do is to assume that you haven't ever been saved, and then repent of your sins and believe the Gospel as if you had never done that before. Repent and believe as if it is the first time.

God wants to save you. Jesus Christ died for you. You can be sure of this. You don't have to worry and wonder, "Does God even want to save me?" or "Has Jesus really died for me". The answer is YES! God wants to save everyone, Jesus Christ died for the whole world. But God is waiting upon you to repent of your sins and believe the Gospel. Do not wait for God to do for you what you must do for yourself. Don't expect God to do what He expects you to do! You must decide to surrender everything and trust entirely in Christ.

God PROMISES that if the wicked forsake their way, and if you believe the Gospel, He will pardon you by His grace and mercy. Jesus made forgiveness possible, now you must repent and believe to receive it.

Taylor writes...

"I'm just curious, when Jesus told Peter that Peter was going to deny knowing Christ three times - could Peter have later avoided this sin, thus making Christ a liar? If he could not, then Peter's denial of Christ was obviously unavoidable. However, you would believe that Peter was not sinning in this case since it was unavoidable?"

This is not a thelogical question, therefore can never have a satisfactory answer, only one opinion versus another and there the stalemate would be. This is a question about the nature of time and how God transcends it. There is no time in Heaven, time is a human concept. When Jesus spoke to Peter He spoke of something that had already happened because God stands outside of time. It would not be a case of it being avoidable, because one cannot avoid that which has already happened. The process that led to Peter denying Jesus is the process and because the Lord has foreknowledge of this(stands outside of time) then He can comment on it. Because the Lord has foreknowledge of how things will turn out, does not make HIm a cosmic playright......Frank

With all due respect to everyone's posts, I would encourage you, Paul, to only take heed to UncleBert's. I know that might sound strange or harsh, but there is so much Christian talk about repentance that is simply unbiblical, yet widely accepted. Thank you UncleBert for your post. Amen.

I fully reject the common assumption that 1 John 3 says we cannot "practice" sin. There's no basis for that at all in the Greek. Just because it is a presently active phrase doesn't mean John was talking about practicing sin. He was literally saying, as he so clearly says, that whoever is born of God does not sin. Present, active... he does not sin, period. Do we not read John in verse 4? What is sin? And who sins?

"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." (1 John 3:4)

Whoever commits sin transgresses the law. Does that apply to a Christian, who is redeemed from the law?

"Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God." (Romans 7:4)

"But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter." (Romans 7:6)

"For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God." (Galatians 2:19)

All Christians (those whose identities are in Christ) are dead to the law through the death of Christ. Therefore they are not subject to the law. To the law, the Christian is dead. They CANNOT break the law, and so therefore they CANNOT sin! At all! There is no way a true Christian can sin because sin is transgression of the law, and "without the law sin is dead." (Romans 7:8)

Am I making this up? No! This is the truth of Scripture!

"Sin is not imputed when there is no law." (Romans 5:13)

"Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression." (Romans 4:15)

John is not saying anything but what he is clearly saying. Whoever is born of God CANNOT sin. Why? John answers the question in a circle: Because he is born of God!

"Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin." (Romans 4:6-8)

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus." (Romans 8:1)

"Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth." (Romans 8:33)

This is the most radical truth that any person could ever believe, and yet Christians continually are stuffing it under the rug, telling people they must still be condemned for their sins! Condemned for my sins? WHAT SINS? Christ took them all and I am no longer deemed a sinner! No, now I am a son of God, elect, precious, redeemed, washed, justified, forgiven - SAVED!

Each one of us would be absolutely condemned were we to seek to be right before God by our works, whether before or after conversion. The law finds us to be sinners were it not for Jesus Christ. The law demands perfection. It knows nothing of "practicing" or "habitual" righteousness. You either keep it or you don't: and nobody but Christ ever will, says John:

"And in him is no sin." (1 John 3:5)

IN HIM IS NO SIN! And THAT is why, if you are IN CHRIST, there is no sin that can be imputed to you! You CANNOT sin IN CHRIST! Impossible!

Nor is repentance a synonym for keeping the law, as so many unwittingly affirm. Repentance is, as UncleBert said, the turning to Jesus Christ for salvation and safety. It is conversion. It is when a sinner turns from trying to work his own way to righteousness and SUBMITS to the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD IN CHRIST JESUS.

"For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God." (Romans 10:3)

That submission to the righteousness of God is repentance, and it is THAT which Satan wars against. He has no problem with preaching morality and human righteousness. The Bible tells us he transforms his ministers into ministers of righteousness (2 Corinthians 11:15). Satan loves preaching morality, because it appeals to the conscience and sweeps millions into self-righteous religion, condemning them all to hell.

Oh, little do we realize that the only righteousness that is indeed righteousness and acceptable before God is the righteousness of God Himself! What a violent war this is, and how the mighty have fallen! It is the war between the glory of God and the glory of man and all that is right and true. The righteousness of God calls a sinner a sinner indeed, and only by faith in Jesus Christ do we magnify the law of God and satisfy all requirements.

You're either dead in sin or dead to sin. And every true born again Christian is dead to sin by the body of Christ. Sin no longer has any claim upon them. They are crucified with Christ! Convicted, dead, punished, finished! They are freed from the law forever.

So the next time Satan lies to you and condemns you for your "sin", you tell him: "What sin, Satan? What sin? The sin that Jesus Christ suffered for and died for on the cross that God no longer remembers? The sin that God has removed as far as the east is from the west by the blood of the Lamb? Be silent, my accuser! Christ has defeated you once and for all and triumphed over you and your wicked devices! Who are you to condemn me? God has justified me. I am no longer yours!"

Thanks be to God who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!!!

Brother Eli,

1.) How does 1 John 1:9 fit in with not being under sin? Why do we need to confess our sins if we're not under sin because we're not under law?

2. The scripture states that sin is more than transgression of the law. Whatever it not of faith is sin. (Rom 14)

3. James 5:19 says "19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul[b] from death and cover a multitude of sins. [/b]

James in speaking to "brethren" states that if one wanders away from the truth and they are turned back that a multitude of "sins" are covered" If a believer has not sin then how are his sins now covered by coming back to the truth from wandering away from it? Why is sin even an issue?

4.) James 4:17 says "Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin." How can this be if sin is only trangression of the law?

5.) Paul tells the Ephesians "Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
" Why does Paul tell believers to "sin not" if they cannot sin already?

6.) Paul is speaking to "Brothers" says that some have "eaten and drunk" judgment on themselves. If a believer cannot sin then how does one bring judgment on themselves?

27 Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28 A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. 29 For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. 30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. 31 But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment. 32 When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world.

33 So then, [b]my brothers,[/b] when you come together to eat, wait for each other

7.) This verse in 1 Cor 8:12 says that we can sin against our brothers and even Christ Himself. "12 When you sin against your brothers in this way and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ."

There are countless other scriptures that disagree with what you have posted. Can you explain how all of these fit in with what you've believe the scripture teaches on a believer being unable to sin?

Quote...

"it would have been impossible for Peter to avoid this sin, because to do so would have made Christ's statement false.'

Is it possible brother that you are looking at bthis backwards and perhaps swalloing a camel. The foreknowledge of God does not make Him responsible for the lives of Humanity. A man will give an account for his actions. He will not say "I played the part you called me to play, sorry for the part where you said that I would sin."

Tozer said it best. God's soveriegn will is like a liner sailing from New York to Liverpool. God has set the course and the time of arrival, nothing can change that, there is a beginning and an end, but the people are free to move about the ship even as that ship passes through waters that God has charted...........Frank

So how does 1 John 1:9 apply to the believer? Or would you say it does not apply to the believer since they are already righteous in God's eyes?

Also I think you are stretching the understanding of the verses you posted on 1 John 5"

"We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not." (1 John 5:16-18)"

It does not say the believer does not sin "in God's eyes" as you put it. It says the one born of God sinneth not - [b]he keepeth HIMSELF[/b](obviously by the power of God because God's seed abides in him). It has nothing to do with the way the man is seen in God's eyes.

So Eli,

You said: "A Christian sins, recognizes it was wickedness, and thanks God that He does not impute his sins against him."

So there is no really saving a soul from death as James says:

James 5:19 says "19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

There's no death to turn him from since his sins are not imputed. So instead of turning the man from the error of his ways we should tell him "thank God your sins are not imputed"? Because in reality it doesn't matter.

It is the Bible that teaches us that God does not impute sin against His saints, not me.

Brother I didn't say I disagree. I asked you how does this work with 1 John 1:9?

I understand James to be talking about someone who departs from the truth - the gospel, such as the Galatians. Not someone who sins.

Not sure what you mean here. To depart from the faith is to sin.

You posted scriptures again about being dead to the law but the scriptures say other things are sin besides just failure to keep the law (while under the law). I posted that in my original post..could you address those as well?

Thanks.

Sean

In the 1800's arose a group called the "Antinomian Perfectionists". They taught that believers were not under obligation to the moral law. Therefore it was impossible for believers to sin. Therefore all believers were perfect.

Even if a believer steals, this is not a sin, because they are not obligated to "thou shalt not steal". Even if a believer blasphemes God, it is not a sin, because a believer is not obligated to "thou shalt not take the name of the Lord your God in vain". Even if a believer cheats on his wife, this is not a sin, because a believer is not obligated to "thou shalt not commit adultery." A believer could steal, blaspheme, and commit adultery and still remain morally perfect. It is not a sin for a believer to break any of the moral law, because a believer is not under the law.

It would seem that Eli_Barnabas is a part of this group. I didn't know that this group was still around. This type of doctrine, unsound interpretations, and strange reasoning was entirely rejected by the Church in the 1800's when it first arose.

Just because the Bible says that we are not "under the law" doesn't mean that we have to interpret that to mean we are not under obligation to the law - lawlessness or antinomianism. It is not a sound interpretation to interject "[b]obligation[/b]" into that sentence, since other passages clearly teach that we are under obligation to the law. Rather, it would make more sense to interject the word [b]motive[/b] for some of those passages, or [b]condemnation[/b] for others. As Christians, we are not under the motives of the law, neither are we under the condemnation of the law, but we certainly are under obligation to the law. True liberty is no longer being under the motives of the law or the condemnation of the law, but Christian liberty is not being free from obligation to the law.

Which is true?

- Believers are not under the motives of the law
- Believers are not under the condemnation of the law
- Believers are not under obligation to the law

The first two are true, the last one is false.

[b]If a believer was not under obligation to obey the moral law:[/b]

- a believer would never need to pray for forgiveness, or pray the Lords prayer

- a believer would never need to confess his sin, because there would be no sin to confess, and the confession of sin would actually be a lie

- the Holy Spirit would not and could not convict a believer for his conduct.

- God could not forgive (impute not) sin committed by a believer, because there would be no sin to forgive, there would be no sin to impute not.

- a believer would not have to caution himself against sin.

- preachers do not have to preach against sin in their Church, because there would be no sin

- a believer could live just like the devil, without being sinful

- a believer is lying if he ever says that he is sinful, or that he is a sinner

- lawlessness must not be a bad thing in God's eyes

- Jesus Christ has given us a license to sin, being under grace means having a license to be lawless

- a believer never has to feel bad for mistreating God or others

- a believer could not keep God's commandments, because there would be no commandments to keep

- you cannot say a man is not a Christian if he is actively involved in the homosexual lifestyle, because homosexuality is not a sin for a believer

- a believer would never need to repent of sin, because there would be no sin to repent of

- a believer would never have to fear losing salvation because of sin, because there would be no sin to commit

- a believer would no longer need an atonement if he sins, because his sin is not really a sin

This post is to no-one in particular. I have not made time to read the posts in this thread since my last post, but in another thread, I was directed to an article on David Wilkerson's website, and have extracted this small portion of it, because it is relevant to the opening post here.

Paul, I hope you're doing okay. Keep looking to the Lord for light.

[i]'We are called to tell sinful men and women that their own personal goodness — their moral uprightness and good works — cannot merit any right standing with God.

We are called to persuade self-made people that they must die to their own desires in order to give their lives for others.

We are called to tell the worldly person that his integrity is as dirty rags in God’s sight. In telling him this, we are taking from him his pearl of great price, the thing he worked so hard to obtain. And when we tell him no amount of self-earned righteousness can amount to salvation, he will despise us.

Some say the preaching of the cross is too intolerant, as so-called “new evangelicals” seek accommodation for people’s flesh.
Many voices in the church today say Christians must accept and show a new kind of love. They’re talking about a love in which biblical truth must bend with the times.

According to this gospel, no personal changes are necessary when one accepts Christ. [b]Indeed, no repentance is needed. Rather, the goal in presenting this gospel is simple: to break down any barrier that could be considered a stumbling block to a person’s acceptance of Christ[/b]...'

David Wilkerson[/i]

[url=http://www.worldchallenge.org/node/6612]Full article: They Hated Him Without A Cause[/url]

Here is a hymn to pray through.

[i]Tune: [url=http://www.hymntime.com/tch/htm/j/e/jesusmya.htm]Bethany[/url] by Lowell Mason[/i]

Wash me, O Lamb of God,
Wash me from sin!
By Thine atoning blood,
O make me clean!
Purge me from ev'ry stain,
Let me Thine image gain,
In love and mercy reign
O'er all within!

Wash me, O Lamb of God,
Wash me from sin!
I long to be like Thee,
All pure within.
Now let the crimson tide,
Shed from Thy wounded side,
Be to my heart applied,
And make me clean.

Wash me, O Lamb of God,
Wash me from sin!
I will not, cannot rest
Till pure within.
All human skill is vain,
But Thou canst cleanse each stain
Till not a spot remain—
Made wholly clean.

Wash me, O Lamb of God,
Wash me from sin!
By faith Thy cleansing blood
Now makes me clean.
So near art Thou to me,
So sweet my rest in Thee—
O blessed purity,
Saved, saved from sin!

Wash me, O Lamb of God,
Wash me from sin!
Thou, while I trust in Thee,
Wilt keep me clean.
Each day to Thee I bring
Heart, life— yea, ev'rything;
Saved, while to Thee I cling,
Saved from all sin!

[i]Words: HB Beagle[/i]

I know no-one is asking this question here, but in the light of the discussion around 1 John 1:9 (which is fully explained in Paul Washer's message The True Gospel), I'd like to testify that I puzzled for many, many years over 1 John 1:8.

Eventually, God made me see that [i][b]unless[/i][/b] the truth is in us, we do not see our sin.

However, it behoves us to take very seriously what the light of truth shows us, or, we will happily slip back into self-deception, mistaking the promptings of the Holy Spirit for an over-active conscience which need not be obeyed.

Recently, I've heard it pointed out that we cannot search our own hearts. We must open them to God for Him to search them. This, it appears, is the way to be certain we are not deceiving ourselves about our standing with God.

Indeed, if we thought we had [u]no sin[/u], why would we need to walk in the light as He is in the light so that His blood would be continuously cleansing us from all sin? (1 John 1:7)

I think this is much more about the attitudes of our hearts, than it is about being hyervigilant in a legalistic sort of way, lacking in liberty and love for others. If we allow our relationships with men to be ruled by the teaching of Jesus Christ, we will have real peace.

Percy Gutteridge, in his sermon Father of Lights, makes 'walk in the light' = 'the cross'. That's a helpful perspective, I believe, and worth thinking about more deeply.

Eli Barnabus,
Greetings,
There are three words here that are of the utmost importance.And if they lose their
original meaning,it is really critical!

The gospel:Jesus said,`the gospel is`the gospel of the kingdom.'In another place,He said`this gospel'must be preached throughout the whole world,and then shall the end come.'The kingdom is a place where the King,who is Jesus rules ..is Lord.He comes in by-way of the Holy Spirit to do His work in our lives.(it is the Father that does the work,but we must allow Him to.(Paul said,`For as many as are led by the Spirit of God,they are the sons of God.')

Grace:The Devine influance upon the heart and it's reflection in the life.(The Spirit drawing us God-ward.)The same Devine drawing of us as
at the first encountering with God.So He,( His grace)continues to draw us to His will.

Repentance:to turn around and go in the WAY of Gods leading.Example..Paul was going in a way, that he thought was right..totaly blinded.
But the Lord came to him, he did a complete turn, and asked` What would Thou have for me to do Lord?
I wish I had time to look up all this , but really I don't.Please look them up.
with all sincerity,
Elizabeth

Christinyou said

There is no need to repent for the Christian

Ebeth said

Grace:The Devine influance upon the heart and it's reflection in the life.(The Spirit drawing us God-ward.)The same Devine drawing of us as at the first encountering with God.So He,( His grace)continues to draw us to His will.

Eph 3:7 ... according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

What was that power? Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; [u]that ye may know[/u] what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, 19 And what [is] [u]the exceeding greatness of his power[/u] to us-ward who believe, according to [b]the working of his mighty power[/b], 20 [b]Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead[/b], and

1 Peter 3:7, Romans 11:5, Hebrews 4:16, Hebrews 10:29 = Rom 6:4

1 Cor 12:4 Strong's definition of 'gifts':

of gifts
New Testament Greek Definition:
5486 charisma {khar'-is-mah}
from 5483; TDNT - 9:402,1298; n n
AV - gift 15, free gift 2; 17

1) a favour with which one receives without any merit of his own

2) the gift of [u]divine grace[/u]

3) the gift of faith, knowledge, holiness, virtue

4) [u]the economy of divine grace[/u], by which the pardon of sin and eternal salvation is appointed to sinners in consideration of the merits of Christ laid hold of by faith

5) [u]grace[/u] or gifts denoting extraordinary powers, distinguishing certain Christians and enabling them to serve the church of Christ, the reception of which is due to [u]the power of divine grace[/u] operating on their souls by the Holy Spirit

Acts 14:3
Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto [u]the word of his grace[/u], and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands.

Acts 20:32
And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to [u]the word of his grace[/u], which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.

clintstone said

I know that people will not agree that 1 john 1:8 is only talking about justification , because he is supposed to only be writting to Christians , but this is what he is talking about . Noone can come to Christ and be cleansed from all SIN [ unrightiousness ] without first confessing that they have sinned . Now, if one was to think have not sinned before confessing Christ as your savior , and thereby cleansed from ALL sin , then you are a liar and know not LOVE .

I was not suggesting a person can be cleansed of their sin without knowing their need of confession of that sin to Jesus, and repentance that enables them to cease from that sin.

[John] is talking about justification there , and NOT sanctification . Grace is the , means of salvation

To sanctify, is to set apart for God's use alone. Once that has been done, we - those who have set themselves apart unto God - are required to renew this 'setting apart' many times through our Christian life.

What John is getting at in 1 John 1:8, which rather follows on from 1 John 1:7 as well as fitting in with 1 John 1:9, does indeed play a part in what is commomnly called 'sanctification', and is covered again by 1 John 3:3, which most specifically is within the context of sonship (authentic Christianity).

1 Pet 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently: 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Peter's writing above, is all in the present continuous tense. That means the purifying is not over yet. This fits in with 1 John 1:8 also, and

2 Cor 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty. 18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord.

For, why would we need to be changed by looking into the face of Christ, if we are already so perfect we don't need to change anything?

One minister, around 1837, said this:

"There have been many, in modern times, called Perfectionists, who held that they were [b]not under obligation to obey the law[/b]... Where the Bible says sin shall not have dominion over believers, these persons understand by it, [b]that the same acts, which would be sin if done by an unconverted person, are not sin in them[/b]. The others, they say, are under the law, and so bound by its rules, but themselves are sanctified, and are in Christ, and [b]if they break the law it is no sin[/b]."

Eli_Barnabas said the same thing:

Therefore they are not subject to the law. To the law, the Christian is dead. They CANNOT break the law, and so therefore they CANNOT sin! At all!

In other words, Ted Haggard did not really sin when he committed homosexuality, because it is not a sin for a Christian to be a homosexual. Homosexuality is only a sin for unbelievers, homosexuality is not a sin for believers, because believers have no moral law that they are obligated to keep. It is not a sin for a Christian to live lawless (to live like there is no law) because a Christian has no moral law that God wants them to keep.

Eli_Barnabas interpreted 1 John 3:9, about how believers “cannot sin”, to mean that believers cannot sin because they have no commandments to keep. This interpretation is the exact opposite of what the inspired Apostle meant. The passage is not about lawlessness, but lawfulness. It is not that the believer has no commandments to keep, but that the believer keeps the commandments that he is supposed to. As the Apostle says, “we keep His commandments”.

This idea of antinomian perfectionism teaches that Jesus didn't come to save us from sin, but from the law. You can't get all the sin out of your life, so instead, God takes the law out of your life. It represents the law, not sin, as the problem. God has no problem with His law. God's problem has always been with man's sin.

There is nothing wrong with a man being faithful to his wife, as the commandment teaches. There is something wrong with adultery. There is nothing wrong with a man telling the truth. There is something wrong with lying. It is not the law that is wrong, it is violating the law that is wrong. God does not want to take away the moral law, God wants to take away sin.

truefaithsav, that was a great post.

Earlier, I had intended to quote 'the law is for the lawless', but kept forgetting. This would mean that if any Christian failed to fulfill the law, they would fall into the 'lawless' category, the difference being, that the Christian's attitude to sin should be entirely repentant and heartbroken, whereas the unsaved man can sin to a band playing, and never notice he is not in fellowship with God.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=18743&commentView=itemComments]Song of Solomon Part 2[/url] [i]by Paul Washer[/i]

alan4jc,

If a believer is not under obligation to the moral law of God, how can a believer commit any sins at all, let alone commit a sin that is not unto death? Only those who are obligated to the moral law are capable of violating the moral law. Since sin is transgression of the law, only those who are under obligation to the moral law are capable of committing sin.

If a believer is not under obligation to the moral law, they cannot commit a sin unto death or commit a sin that is not unto death, because they cannot commit a sin at all.

If a believer commits adultery, it is not a sin, unless they are under obligation to "thou shalt not commit adultery".

If a believer tells a lie, it is not a sin, unless they are under obligation to "thou shalt not bear false witness".

If a believer blasphemes God's name, it is not a sin, unless they are under obligation to "thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain".

Is it a sin for a believer to commit adultery, or to lie, or to blaspheme? If it is a sin for a believer to do so, then they must be under obligation to the moral law of God.

If a believer sins, should they confess it? If a believer is not under obligation to the moral law, they cannot sin, and therefore if they confess to sinning they are lying.

If a believer sins, should they repent of it? If a believer is not under obligation to the moral law, they have no sin to repent of.

If a believer sins, should they pray for forgiveness? If they are not under obligation to the moral law, they have no sin to seek forgiveness for.

If a believer sins, do they need to be covered by the blood of Christ? If believers are not under obligation to the moral law, they have no sin that needs covering.

In essence, if antinomian perfectionism is true, believers have no need for confession, repentance, prayers for forgiveness, or continual covering by the blood.

The point is that a Christian can sin

If sin is transgression of the law and believers are not under obligation to the law, how can a believer sin? A believer can do anything that they want and it is not a sin, they violate no obligation. It is wrong for an unbeliever to lie, steal, commit adultery, and blaspheme, but it is not a sin for a believer to do those things, if they are not under obligation to the moral law.

you are bearing false witness

Am I, as a believer, under moral obligation to "thou shalt not bear false witness"? Are believers supposed to obey the Ten Commandments, or are we free from the law? If we are free from the law, we are free to tell lies. Aren't you trying to put me under the "bondage" of the law, by telling me not to bear false witness?

And if believers are not in danger of the lake of fire if they become liars, why should we be concerned about accurately representing someone's views or not? If God is not really going to cast "all liars" into the lake of fire, what does it matter if believers are liars?

Of course, I am trying to represent Antinomian Perfectionism accurately, to the best of my ability.

A person is righteous (right with God) not merely if they believe in Jesus Christ, for even the devil believe in Jesus Christ. That is known as “easy believism” or antinomianism. A person is righteous (right with God) if they repent of their sins and believe the Gospel. God grants the remission of sins by His grace and mercy, through Jesus Christ, not merely if we believe, but if we repent and believe. God forgives those who are repentant.

“And saying, the time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.” Mark 1:15

“Testifying both to the Jews and also to the Greeks, repentance towards God, and faith towards our Lord Jesus Christ.” Acts 20:21

Repentance, or turning from sin, is not justification by the law. Justification by the law is when a person is declared innocent because they have never sinned. That is why it is impossible for a sinner, for a guilty person, to be justified by the law. A person who has violated the law is guilty and therefore cannot be declared innocent. It is impossible for the court of God to examine their works and find them to be faultless. Therefore a guilty sinner cannot be justified (declared innocent) by the works of the law (because according to his works he is innocent).

“Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified I his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.” Romans 3:20.

What this means is that the law cannot declare us to be innocent by examining our works, because we have sinned. The reason we cannot be justified by the law is because justification by the law is the declaration of innocence. If a man is accused of a crime falsely and the evidence is provided which shows his works to be in perfect alignment with the law, the court will justify him. The court of God cannot declare the guilty as innocent because that would be lying. Therefore by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified, according to our works nobody will be declared innocent, because by the law is the knowledge of sin.

But those who repent of their sins and believe the Gospel are justified by God’s grace, not that they are declared innocent (since that would be declaring a lie) but that they are pardoned and treated as if they were innocent. Even though they deserve hell, God will not give them what they deserve. Those who repent and believe have God’s unmerited favor, they are forgiven by His mercy.

“Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions, so iniquity shall not be your ruin.” Eze 18:30

“Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.” Isaiah 55:7

“He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.” Proverbs 28:13

“And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.” Jonah 3:10

“I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.” Luke 13:3

Those who are declared innocent, because they are innocent, have reason to boast. But those who are treated as if they were innocent when they repent and believe, even though they are guilty, can only boast of God’s grace. To be justified by the works of the law, you would have to be perfect from birth to death. But to be justified by God’s grace and mercy, you simply need to repent and believe.

It is not enough to intellectually believe in Jesus, like the devils do (James 3:19). Jesus must be embraced as Lord and Savior by the heart. The entire idea of being righteous in our position, while still being unrighteous in our practice, was condemned and warned about by the Apostle John.

“Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.” 1 John 3:7

The Bible warns about teaching forgiveness without repentance of sin, saying that Jesus can be your Savior without being your Lord:

“For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.” Jude 1:4

“They profess that they know God, but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.” Titus 1:16

“What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid.” Romans 6:1-2

God’s grace is not for those who continue in sin. God’s grace is for those who repent of their sins.

“For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment, and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.” Hebrews 10:26-27

Anyone who is still in their sins is under the wrath of God:

“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men” Romans 1:18

“But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath… upon every soul of man that doeth evil…. ” Romans 2:8-9

Only those who keep God’s law actually know God. And only those who keep God’s law will be allowed into Heaven:

“And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” 1 John 2:3

“Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.” Revelation 22:14

“Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived…” I Corinthians 6:9

alan4jc,

I don't understand. Are you saying that you have never repented of your sins?

How can it be arrogance and pride to repent of your sins? Does that mean that it is somehow humility to stay in your sins?

Repentance for forgiveness is not justification by the law. Justification by the law is the declaration of innocence. Repentance for forgiveness is justification by grace. Those who repent still deserve hell, therefore their pardon is gracious and merciful.

We are not to trust in our works to get to Heaven, as if we don't deserve punishment, or as if our works are perfectly justified in God's sight. We are to trust in God's grace and mercy, through the atonement, which we receive through repentance and faith.

Paul warned in Phillipians 3 of the dogs who would pretend to be "christians" and bring people back into bondage to law.

"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous." 1 John 5:3

Was the Apostle John a dog? Was he a pretent Christian? He didn't teach God's commandments as bondage, he said they were not burdensome.

According to you, a person must either teach lawlessness or they are a dog? If a person teaches lawfulness, they are a pretend Christian?

Was Jesus Christ a dog? Was Jesus Christ a pretend? He will say to those who live lawlessly, to those who break His law, "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Matthew 7:23

While I have my disagreements with the Early Church on some issues, I have found these quotes to be very powerful. A return to the Apostolic Faith would shake the modern Church and the world!

"Since all things are seen and heard [by God], let us fear Him and forsake those wicked works that proceed from evil desires. By doing that, through His mercy, we may be protected from the judgments to come." Clement of Rome, the companion of Paul and John, whom the Bible says has eternal life in Philippines 4:3

"Let us therefore repent with the whole heart, so that none of us perish by the way." Second Clement, year 150

"Let us therefore practice righteousness so that we may be saved unto the end." Second Clement, year 150

"Repentance is great wisdom. For he who has sinned understands that he acted wickedly in the sight of the Lord. He remembers the actions he has done, and he repents. He no longer acts wickedly, but he does good generously." Hermas, year 150

That was sound doctrine which you heard; for that is really the case. For he who has received remission of sins should not sin anymore, but should live in purity." Hermas, year 150

"He must believe that salvation belongs to the one who lives according to the commandments." Clement of Alexandria, year 195

"He that repents of what he did, no longer does or says things he did... He, then, who has received the forgiveness of sins should sin no more." Clement of Alexandria, year 195

"But continual and successive repentings of sins does not differ at all from the case of those who have not believed at all." Clement of Alexandria, year 195

"True repentance means to be no longer bound in the same sins for which He denounced death against Himself. Rather, it is to eradicate them completely from the soul." Clement of Alexandria, year 195

"Repentance is the price for which the Lord has determined to award pardon." Tertullian, year 203

"He, then, will receive you - His own son - back, even if you have squandered what you had received from Him... But He does this only if you heartily repent. He does this only if you contrast your own hunger with the plenty of your Father's hired servants. And you must leave behind you the swine - that unclean herd." Tertullian, year 203

"All sins may be forgiven the one who has turned to God with his whole heart... Turn to the Lord and forsake your sins... repentance unto salvation.." Exhortation to repentance, year 255

"To repent is nothing else than to profess and to affirm that one will sin no more... He who sins wilfully has no pardon." Lactantius, year 304-313

"He is appeased by a reform of the morals. He who ceases to sin renders the anger of God extinguishable." Lactantius, 304-313

"A sinner avoids destruction by repentance." Apostolic Constitutions, year 390

"He who wills that no one should perish, desires that sinners should repent, and by repentance, should return again to life." Cyprian, year 250

"Those who do not obey Him, but being disinherited by Him, have ceased to be His sons." Irenaeus, year 180

"He who sins after his baptism, unless he repents and forsakes his sins, will be condemned to Gehenna." Apostolic Constitutions, year 390

"For do not many afterwards fall out of [grace]? Is not this gift taken away from many?" Tertullian, year 203

"Being a believing man, if you seek to live as the Gentiles do, the joys of the world remove you from the grace of Christ." Commodianus, year 240

"Knowing that what preserves his life, namely, obedience to God, is good, he may diligently keep it with all earnestness." Irenaeus, year 180

"The world returned to sin... and so it is destined to fire. So is the man who after baptism renews his sins." Tertullian, year 198

"if you die in sin, there will remain no repentance for you." Apostolic Constitutions, year 390

your promise or desire to not sin is somehow pleasing to God

If God is not pleased with repentance, God must be pleased with sin. The only reason God would not be pleased with men turning from sin is if God is pleased with men staying in their sins.

[b]Sin displeases God:[/b]

"And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was oly evil continually. And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart." Genesis 6:5-6

[b]Repentance pleases God:[/b]

"Say unto them, as I love saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die"? Ezekiel 33:11

"I say unto you that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance." Luke 15:7

The Apostle Paul warned against these ideas, all you need to do is read his letters.

To interpret the writings of Paul as teachings against repentance is to terribly misunderstand his writings and to put him at odds with the rest of the Bible!

"As also in all his epistles, speaking in tem of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." 2 Peter 3:16

Eli, it is very clear from your posts that you don't know me or understand me at all. You need to be careful because all liars will be cast into the lake of fire.

Your statement reveals your ignorance. Of course God is displeased with sin, and of course God is pleased with righteousness.

Alan said that God is not pleased with repentance.

The Bible says that all of Heaven rejoices when sinners repent.

Who is right, Alan or the Bible?

The issue is that YOU are unrighteous - you are a sinner.

I am a new Creature in Christ. The old has passed. The new has come. The Son has set me free. I am not a sinner anymore. The Bible calls Christians Saints.

If you are not a new creature in Christ, if you are still a sinner, you are not saved. Only saints are saved. All sinners are condemned.

Besides, if I am not under the law as a believer, how can I be a "sinner"? In your antinomian theology, believers cannot be sinners.

'God is displeased with YOU and your so-called repentance which is no repentance at all: for you tell men to keep the commandments and you don't even do it yourself.

Actually, as a Christian I keep God's commandments.

"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments." 1 John 2:3

"And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments and do those things that are pleasing in his sight." 1 John 3:22

If you do not keep God's commandments, you do not know God. You CANNOT know God, because sin separates us from Him. If you do not keep God's commandments, you are not a Christian, you have not been saved or transformed by the power of Jesus Christ.

You're a wicked law-breaker in God's sight. You are worse than that - you are defying God's glory by saying that you in your own self-righteousness do not fall short of it (Romans 3:23).

Actually, I am not righteous of myself. I am only righteous in my position and in my practice because of Jesus Christ. Through the atonement I am righteous in my position and through the work of the Holy Spirit I am righteous in my practice.

The problem is that God has placed you under obligation to His law, and you break His law and turn his grace into a licence to sin! God's grace saves us from breaking God's law. God's grace is not so that we can continue to break His law! You are a wicked law breaker and you need to repent or perish.

You are lowering the standard of righteousness.

Love is the fulfillment of the law. If a person loves, they are perfectly keeping God's law. When a person is born again, they get a new heart. Their new heart is a heart of love, one that fulfills the law of God.

You are calling God a liar who declared that by the deeds of law no flesh would be justified in His sight.

No man can be justified by the deeds of the law. The law cannot declare the guilty as innocent, because we have sinned. Justification by the deeds of the law is IMPOSSIBLE. We HAVE to be justified by God's grace! There is no way for the guilty to cease to deserve punishment.

We can be justified by God's grace and mercy, through Jesus Christ, if we repent of our sins and trust in Christ.

You are calling Jesus Christ a liar, who said you need to repent or perish.

You are calling God a liar, who said that the wicked needed to forsake their way in order to be pardoned.

You are putting men in bondage and are an enemy of the cross.

It is you that are putting men in bondage and are an enemy of the cross! You are putting men in the bondage of sin, by telling them that they are not obligated to obey God's commandments. And you are an enemy of the cross by saying that we are not saved from the practice of sin through the cross!

The issue is not whether God is against sin or not.

That is precisely the issue. You are saying that God is not against sin, God is against His own law! If God is against sin, God will not abrogate His law. If God is against sin, God would require everyone to obey His law.

We affirm more than you that He is. He is so against sin that He does not accept anything but perfect righteousness - that which was exhibited by the Lord Jesus Christ alone -

That is right. If you do not follow Jesus Christ, you will go to hell. Nothing short of perfect obedience to God's law is acceptable. If you do not forsake ALL sin, you cannot have His grace and mercy.

and that He punished sin at Calvary by slaying His own Son for sinners.

Jesus died for the whole world, providing a substitute for the penalty of hell, so that God can remit the penalty for those who repent of their sins and trust in Christ. If you do not repent of your sins, you will not receive the remission of sins. God will not remit your penalty, unless you both repent and believe.

God is most assuredly against sin, and therefore you are in grave trouble unless you believe on the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.

Because God is against sin, you are in trouble with God, unless Jesus Christ takes away your sin. Unless Jesus Christ transforms you from a sinner to a saint, you are in trouble with God. Unless you are born again, unless you stop breaking God's law and begin to obey Him in newness of life, you will go to hell.

You do not believe, as you assume you do. For "the law is not of faith", and you have not submitted to God, but are "going about to establish your own righteousness."

You have not submitted to God's method of making men righteous. You are trying to establish your own righteousness, an easy believism, forgiveness without repentance. You need to submit to God's righteousness. You need to submit to God's way of making sinners righteous, by repenting of their sins and trusting in Jesus Christ.

I fear for you. May God have mercy on you and do to you as He did to Saul of Tarsus, that you too may see that you are "the chief of sinners".

I fear for you. I pray that you repent of your sins ust as Saul or Tarsus did, so that you can say with Paul that you are "free from sin" and have a conscience "void of offense". Unless you repent like Saul did and be born again, you cannot have God's forgiveness like Saul did.

PaulWest,

Don't you think that these statements were way out of line? We should be able to discussion doctrine without these false personal attacks.

The issue is that YOU are unrighteous - you are a sinner. God is displeased with YOU and your so-called repentance which is no repentance at all: for you tell men to keep the commandments and you don't even do it yourself. You're a wicked law-breaker in God's sight. You are worse than that - you are defying God's glory by saying that you in your own self-righteousness do not fall short of it (Romans 3:23). You are lowering the standard of righteousness. You are calling God a liar who declared that by the deeds of law no flesh would be justified in His sight. You are putting men in bondage and are an enemy of the cross.

I fear for you. May God have mercy on you and do to you as He did to Saul of Tarsus, that you too may see that you are "the chief of sinners".

He condemned me to hell, accused me of sin, accused me of lowering the standard, accused me of calling God a liar, said I was under God's wrath, ALL BECAUSE I BELIEVE IN REPENTANCE!

If this is the type of theology on these forums, I don't think I want to be a part of this community. I don't want to be falsely accused and attacked simply for believing in biblical repentance.

Are there any brethren here who believe in repentance? I know that Paul Washer, Ray Comfort, and David Wilkerson do and Leonard Ravenhill, Charles Spurgeon, Charles Finney, and others did. Is everyone on this forum antinomian? Does everyone believe that repentance is justification by works?

I believe there are many extreme view points being expressed in this thread. Regeneration is the work of God soley. Repentance is also a gift of God but also something that needs to be exercised by man's will. This is the Biblical view brothers and sisters, it involves both God and man.

The Calvinism / Arminian debates are extreme positions lets stick to the simplicity of the Word of God and see the world transformed by the Gospel.

I think this thread and discussion has run its self to its end. I am locking this thread.