Zac poonen on Predestination

I enjoyed brother Poonens simple and scriptural explanation here without going into extremes, it blessed me. [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1kMFFDb6tg]video here[/url]

sermonindex wrote:
This is great! thanks for sharing brother.

your welcome! its a great little video not long but just what scripture says and no extremes that contradict much other scriptures

I love Poonen but this is a joke. I hear this all the time! The word "foreknew" in Romans 8:29 IS AN ACTIVE VERB! Poonen starts right off the bat by defining it as a noun! Then he builds his entire arguemnt on the foundation of that error. The length people will go to skirt around the clear meaning of Scripture regarding election is amazing. Even wonderful Bible teachers will do this. YOU CANNOT DEFINE "FOREKNEW" HERE AS A NOUN! IT IS AN ACTIVE VERB! The dishonesty of people here is grevious...

It says WHOM God foreknew, not WHAT God forknew. His foreknowledge is of people, not events & happenings (ie what people would do. It is the same as Amos 3:2 where God says of Isael, "You only have I KNOWN of all nations on earth". The KNOWN is personal (Adam "knew" Eve) God had knowledge of all nations, but this KNOWN is a personal love. Everywhere in Scripture where GOD is the object and "forwknowledge" is the verb, it has to do with love. "For those HE FORLOVED, He also predestined. Be honest.

int3grity wrote:
I love Poonen but this is a joke. I hear this all the time! The word "foreknew" in Romans 8:29 IS AN ACTIVE VERB! Poonen starts right off the bat by defining it as a noun! Then he builds his entire arguemnt on the foundation of that error. The length people will go to skirt around the clear meaning of Scripture regarding election is amazing. Even wonderful Bible teachers will do this. YOU CANNOT DEFINE "FOREKNEW" HERE AS A NOUN! IT IS AN ACTIVE VERB! The dishonesty of people here is grevious...

It says WHOM God foreknew, not WHAT God forknew. His foreknowledge is of people, not events & happenings (ie what people would do. It is the same as Amos 3:2 where God says of Isael, "You only have I KNOWN of all nations on earth". The KNOWN is personal (Adam "knew" Eve) God had knowledge of all nations, but this KNOWN is a personal love. Everywhere in Scripture where GOD is the object and "forwknowledge" is the verb, it has to do with love. "For those HE FORLOVED, He also predestined. Be honest.

I would have to agree with you int3grity. This is just the same as in Matt 7 when Christ says " Depart from me ye workers of inquity, I have NEVER KNOWN YOU.."

"God's foreknowledge here has to do with God knowing someone beforehand out of a desire to know that person initmately forever, not God looking down the road to see if that someone WILL accept Him."-Unknown

its the same word we find for God foreknew the jews in the same letter later, but its interesting, the same priciple proves also once saved always saved to be faulty just by looking at the greek in joh 3:16! its amazing what a little grammar can do to a doctrine many hold to be true.

If we just studied more grammar more people would relize only those who believe and continue to believe like the greek verb form says in joh 3:16 eternal security doctrine would not be held by so many.

Anyway, greek verb forms or not i found the video very good and simple, and i believe we can read and understand the bible in english and obey what it says. I find poonens rendering of these verses to be closest to the sum of ALL scripture. in my opinion :-) God bless

@ Integrity

I fail to see how Zac is defining foreknew as a noun, and how that even affects the argument about predestination

I'm with Zac on this one, but not trying to start a fight. I just fail to see where Zac failed to properly teach this doctrine.

Wordizlife wrote:
@ Integrity

I fail to see how Zac is defining foreknew as a noun, and how that even affects the argument about predestination

I'm with Zac on this one, but not trying to start a fight. I just fail to see where Zac failed to properly teach this doctrine.

I agree, i do not see what difference it makes to Poonens message if it is a noun or a verb.

hmmhmm wrote:
its the same word we find for God foreknew the jews in the same letter later, but its interesting, the same priciple proves also once saved always saved to be faulty just by looking at the greek in joh 3:16! its amazing what a little grammar can do to a doctrine many hold to be true.

If we just studied more grammar more people would relize only those who believe and continue to believe like the greek verb form says in joh 3:16 eternal security doctrine would not be held by so many.

Anyway, greek verb forms or not i found the video very good and simple, and i believe we can read and understand the bible in english and obey what it says. I find poonens rendering of these verses to be closest to the sum of ALL scripture. in my opinion :-) God bless

I agree about the "once saved always saved" position-one should be able to see that one must continue in the faith abiding, believing and bearing fruit until the end.

Pertaining to Poonen's video-it says " THOSE whom he FOREKNEW..." also (even in grammar) indicating that he did not forknow ALL-and that there are some whom he did not forknow. The "forknew" is directed towards the person themselves-not any act of the person, whether free will or depraved will.

Zac Poonen is my favorite preacher and such a GODLY man. this is a SECONDARY issue and should not change any opinion of brother Poonen or the value of his messages for any who disagree on this point.

Not a reply. Just adding to thread.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=29534&post_id=224527&order=0&viewmode=thread&pid=0&forum=36#224527]An Exegetical Study of God's Foreknowledge[/url]

Saints, I believe Poonen is correct in light of the scripture(s) we read in Romans, 1 Peter and Ephesians. While it is true that we on earth are looking at these things as through a glass, darkly, there are obvious concepts propagated in the Word of God such as predestination and election and forknowledge, that we cannot simply repudiate or argue away just because of an antipathy we might have for Calvinism or reformed theology in general. In fact, I think it is unfair that these very concepts have been inextricably linked to "Calvinism", almost as if an automatic aspersion or stigma is laid upon those who readily admit (and accept) that these things (along with certain Arminian leanings) are clearly taught in God's Word and mutually viable. Instead of defending one certain camp with our theological intransigence, we ought to instead pray for wisdom in these matters and humbly learn at the feet of Christ what they all mean...and how they can be reconciled in our hearts and minds.

That said, I have learnt to lay this matter aside a long time ago, because, in my heart and mind, God has reconciled them. I am able to beseech all men to repent and at the same time hold to the truths of predestination, election, and foreknowledge. In light of scripture, we should be able to come to the conclusion that true repentence is a gift of grace - and is indeed granted by God - but not in an arbitrary manner as perceived by "dark glass peering" man with his human 2+2=4 logic.

As brother Poonen stated - and I unequivocally agree - these things we are discussing, defending, confuting have been determined before the foundation of time, in the illimitable wisdom of God which none of us can even deign to approach without immediately getting over our heads in endlessly contentious debates which will never be rectified or satisfied until we get to heaven.

And yet, attempting to reconcile these two supposed opposite "enemies" while we are still on this side of heaven may cause us to be rejected by both camps to some degree. The Arminians will have no use for you because you obliterate the conscious efforts of man in salvation; the Reformed camp will also have a bone to pick because of a symbiotic factor of man that took place at an unknown point in time, ions ago before the creation of the world, and which only God is cognizant of, and which he has already appropriately ruled upon.

This is why I can preach both camps with an undivided heart; I can believe in predestination as the Bible asserts, yet I can also square with all men needing to repent. The reason is simply because I do not know who the elect are; I don't know the men and women God forknew before the creation of the world...and how they would respond to the gospel when preached in 2009 at the precise point in time which God foreordained for them to hear it.

Excellent post Brother Paul. Very reminiscent of Spurgeon. He was not afraid of the theological tension found throughout scripture and did not back down from preaching ALL the Bible. I am not in this to defend any "camp." I simply do not believe scripture teaches it the way Zac Poonen preaches it. Excellent post none the less.

I am not in this to defend any "camp." I simply do not believe scripture teaches it the way Zac Poonen preaches it.

Oh, that more would heed this, and just wait on God for a greater maturity before hitting the streets and pulpits in their zeal. Before we endeavor to preach, we need to have endeavored in prayer and submission and patience. It takes alot of time for God to do his work of transforming grace in us - years and years in most cases. Lots of failures are usually required; crushing, painful defeats, with an onward, inexorable depletion of self to where God finally can get us like weak Moses in the desert, like Paul humbled in Arabia, etc.

PaulWest wrote:

I am not in this to defend any "camp." I simply do not believe scripture teaches it the way Zac Poonen preaches it.

That's perfectly okay! I don't agree with absolutely everything [i]any[/i] preacher/teacher says. There's always something I may not have adequate light on yet, or the teacher is speaking about that he doesn't have light on either (most unfortunately). I know I am guilty of that myself, in my younger days, when I was a novice. I suppose that's part of the reason Paul warned Timothy about putting novices, new converts in places of ministy and James tells us not to covet to be teachers.

Oh, that more would fear this, and just wait on God for a greater maturity before hitting the streets and pulpits.

Your input has been a blessing to this forum.

May God continue to speak through you.

Hi everyone,

I do not want to enter into a debate about this topic but I wanted to share that I think that the scriptures speak of God knowing individuals or people beforehand in the context of their actions:

What came to mind was Isaiah 48:1-12(hebrew 'yada' verses 4 and 8) and Genesis 18:17-19(verse 19 hebrew 'yada').

Wish you all well.

int3grity wrote:
I love Poonen but this is a joke. I hear this all the time! The word "foreknew" in Romans 8:29 IS AN ACTIVE VERB! Poonen starts right off the bat by defining it as a noun! Then he builds his entire arguemnt on the foundation of that error. The length people will go to skirt around the clear meaning of Scripture regarding election is amazing. Even wonderful Bible teachers will do this. YOU CANNOT DEFINE "FOREKNEW" HERE AS A NOUN! IT IS AN ACTIVE VERB! The dishonesty of people here is grevious...

It says WHOM God foreknew, not WHAT God forknew. His foreknowledge is of people, not events & happenings (ie what people would do. It is the same as Amos 3:2 where God says of Isael, "You only have I KNOWN of all nations on earth". The KNOWN is personal (Adam "knew" Eve) God had knowledge of all nations, but this KNOWN is a personal love. Everywhere in Scripture where GOD is the object and "forwknowledge" is the verb, it has to do with love. "For those HE FORLOVED, He also predestined. Be honest.

Although I do not know Poonen that well, the teachings I have heard from him seem to be mostly biblical.

I feel that you have accused him of saying something that I never heard him say in the video. I heard him say “whom he foreknew”. I don’t understand why you have such a problem with what he said that you would accuse Him like you did.

The biggest problem I have found is how someone who is so hung up on their doctrinal stance that they interpret what others say different from what they actually said. I hope that you are not like this and I want you to know that I am not accusing you of this either.

First of all God’s foreknowledge is not like our foreknowledge. We must rightly divide the word of truth. We must accept the sovereignty of God as well as the responsibility of man. If we don’t do this then we are in grave error according to the scriptures. The bible says that to whom He foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. Now we need to understand that God has only predestined those he knows (meaning in a spiritual relationship with Him) to be conformed to the image of His Son. He has not predestined any person who is unregenerate to be conformed to the image of His Son. God has to know a person beforehand. The bible says that God predestinated those He knew before the foundation of the world. Keep in mind that we have to reconcile everything that we believe with all the word of God which teaches the sovereignty of God with the responsibility of man. I am not hung up in any camp because I have gone outside the camp bearing His reproach. I will admit that I don’t know all the mysteries of God but I refuse to misrepresent my Lord by believing in something that the scriptures do not support, I had rather say I just don’t know. Praise God brethren for his ways are much higher than our ways.

I have not found one scripture in the bible that says that God has predestined anyone one to be conformed to His Son without knowing them first. I love the fact that God foreknew me before the foundation of the world and also predestined me to be conformed to the image of His Son because I want this more than anything in the whole wide world. If God be for me then who can be against me.

Blessings to you all!

What the? You guys can't see this? What the? This is frustrating.

I have not found one scripture in the bible that says that God has predestined anyone one to be conformed to His Son without knowing them first. I love the fact that God foreknew me before the foundation of the world and also predestined me to be conformed to the image of His Son because I want this more than anything in the whole wide world. If God be for me then who can be against me.

this was wonderful! thank you it made me glad :-)

What the? You guys can't see this? What the? This is frustrating.

The truth will be vindicated in time, brother. Don't frustrate yourself too much over this forum. What do we have that we did not receive, and what do we know that was not revealed to us?

With care in Christ,
Taylor

First of all God’s foreknowledge is not like our foreknowledge. We must rightly divide the word of truth. We must accept the sovereignty of God as well as the responsibility of man. If we don’t do this then we are in grave error according to the scriptures. The bible says that to whom He foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. Now we need to understand that God has only predestined those he knows (meaning in a spiritual relationship with Him) to be conformed to the image of His Son. He has not predestined any person who is unregenerate to be conformed to the image of His Son. God has to know a person beforehand. The bible says that God predestinated those He knew before the foundation of the world. Keep in mind that we have to reconcile everything that we believe with all the word of God which teaches the sovereignty of God with the responsibility of man. I am not hung up in any camp because I have gone outside the camp bearing His reproach. I will admit that I don’t know all the mysteries of God but I refuse to misrepresent my Lord by believing in something that the scriptures do not support, I had rather say I just don’t know. Praise God brethren for his ways are much higher than our ways.

Sometimes I think that all the debate and contention and defense that notoriously surrounds these topics is nothing more than our own bubblewrap being spread out to protect the cherished bulbs we bought.

PaulWest wrote:

Sometimes I think that all the debate and contention and defense that notoriously surrounds these topics is nothing more than our own bubblewrap being spread out to protect the cherished bulbs we bought.

recently i have been thinking how much of the things i believe is things God revealed to me from my own reading and how much of what i believe is what other men taught me, books ,sermons ect. May not be wrong what i have learned, may very well be accurate the same as scripture teaches, but how much of what i believe would i have believed if i never had read one other book then the bible?

not saying that we should not read other books, but i found it a good moment of thoughts sitting looking into my beliefs and looking at what God raveled to me and what man has reveled to me. God surely can use a man to reveal things to us, but still i was fascinated and the thought came to me, if we read no other book, would we believe what we believe today?

recently i have been thinking how much of the things i believe is things God revealed to me from my own reading and how much of what i believe is what other men taught me, books ,sermons ect. May not be wrong what i have learned, may very well be accurate the same as scripture teaches, but how much of what i believe would i have believed if i never had read one other book then the bible?

Ironically, it was this very method of eschewing the teachings of man in light of honest scripture perusal that led me to drop semi-pelegianism and embrace the doctrines of grace...but with the mysteriously inexplicable qualifier of man's assent somehow incorporated in it all. I still don't fully understand how the two are joined (this dark glass I'm peering through doesn't yet permit 20/20 vision), but I know they must be, because, clearly, the Word of God asseverates both.

Brothers Christian (hmmhmm), Paul, and rbanks

You have all shared much wisdom and insight. I have truly been blessed by your posts.
There are simply things we shall not understand this side of glory. Embracing the incomprehensibility of God has added greatly to my peace. I am comfortable looking to Him and saying, “Thou knowest.” Truly our God is an awesome God!

I dare not ruin anything more than I have. Please forgive me.

I love you all.

int3grity wrote:
What the? You guys can't see this? What the? This is frustrating.

God's sovereignty is hard to understand but praise God!
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=82905161940

There are simply things we shall not understand this side of glory. Embracing the incomprehensibility of God has added greatly to my peace. I am comfortable looking to Him and saying, “Thou knowest.” Truly our God is an awesome God!

This isn't to say that everything about God is purposefully left inscrutable to man; it just means that certain things have deliberately been retained as mysteries and hidden from us. One day we will understand, but for now we must rest content in our inability...and instead focus on the things that God [i]has[/i] permitted us to understand, like salvation by faith alone in Christ and other indisputable realities.

There is a wonderful freedom in confessing our inabilities. It can be majestically liberating! I have never felt so close to God and near to his heart as when I honestly confess, "Lord, Thou alone knowest", and fall at the feet of Jesus as a helpless babe. I know only what God has revealed up to this point, and no more. If it please God, may he give me more light in areas estimated by Him alone where I need understanding.

Good word brother TJ, love you too.

brother paul wrote

This isn't to say that everything about God is purposefully left inscrutable to man; it just means that certain things have deliberately been retained as mysteries and hidden from us. One day we will understand, but for now we must rest content in our inability...and instead focus on the things that God has permitted us to understand, like salvation by faith alone in Christ and other indisputable realities.

I have found the things that most tried and refined my love for the brethren, and knowing i do not love the Lord any more then I love the brother i like the least, my love for God is not larger then that no matter what i imagine myself it to be.... knowing that i have found a great blessing in brothers who believe different, many times I have miserably failed and made a fool out myself and shamed God. But i have found its a great process and have noticed once we see the differences as a tool to show us things in [b]me[/b] that are not christlike that springs forth when discussing different matters, this root which it arises from, defense, irritation, frustration is pride. Pride is opposite of humility, and a truly humble man dont react that way, so i am glad that through my brothers that are viewing scripture in another angle then me, that God uses them to expose my pride in me so hopefully i will do something about them, i have been blessed by reading several testimonies but one especially have stucked, cant find it again but it was a "reformed" preacher that was considered this other mans greatest "opponent" in discussing these matters, and the man died and this reformed preacher spoke at the other mans funeral, and he said he was the saintliest man i ever have meet in my life. And I think it should be so of us all, wheter we embrace "the doctrines of grace" or any other set of doctrines, or like me a "strange animal in between", that when we die the ones we discussed most fervently with should be able to say the same about us.

In this i have a long way left, but i wanted to share the blessing i noticed in the "mysteries" God placed in scripture on purpose, there may be many more purposes, but this one i have found, to expose not the error in others doctrine, but the spiritual pride in me.

I love you brothers

Christian

i wanted to share the blessing i noticed in the "mysteries" God placed in scripture on purpose, there may be many more purposes, but this one i have found, to expose not the error in others doctrine, but the spiritual pride in me.

When we humble ourselves and cover our tongues, God grants us light and gives us fresh manna that has not been ill-begotten. Given by the Spirit, the Spirit keeps His own, and the fruit of the Spirit is self-control, charity, gentleness, kindness, humility, patience. We won't automatically lash out when a supposed iconoclast challenges our beliefs. This thread has taken this turn because we have humbled ourselves and admitted we really don't know as much about these things as we would like others to think.

PaulWest wrote:
This thread has taken this turn because we have humbled ourselves and admitted we really don't know as much about these things as we would like others to think.

"God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble." (1Pe 5:5 NKJ)

"God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble." (Jam 4:6 NKJ)

The Lord resists the proud; but he gives grace to the humble. (Pro 3:34 LXA)

humility is the key to Gods grace, makes me think of the pride one can have in knowledge, in knowing more then those "poor deceived" people, probably then those who have a "wrong" doctrine probably have more grace and i am being resisted by God due to my pride. God help us all to be like the Lord, humble and open for Gods grace.

humility is the key to Gods grace, makes me think of the pride one can have in knowledge, in knowing more then those "poor deceived" people, probably then those who have a "wrong" doctrine probably have more grace and i am being resisted by God due to my pride. God help us all to be like the Lord, humble and open for Gods grace.

Well said Brother Christian.

When I think of how patient God is with me I cannot find words…I simply weep.

I have included a quote from Octavius Winslow. He expresses this very well.

"The God of Patience." Romans 15:5.

”There is no study of "our God" which more impressively presents to our view the Infinity of His nature than the study of His perfections; and among those perfections there is not one which, perhaps, more strikingly illustrates that Infinity than His patience. It is impossible to contemplate the fact of God's patience with this fallen world, from the moment of man's transgression until the present, and not be profoundly inspired with the truth– what but an Infinite Being could have borne with this revolted, ungodly race until now? The patience of all the created beings in heaven combined would long since have been exhausted had it been left to deal with sinful man.” – Octavius Winslow

Article in full can be found [url=http://www.gracegems.org/WINSLOW/og03.htm]here[/url]

Dear friends,
I watched the video mentioned in this thread and noticed that Brother Zac Poonen briefly quoted 1 Peter 1 "elect according to the foreknowledge of God" at the beginning of his sermon. So God's election is based on His foreknowledge of events. Our dear Calvinist brothers on this thread seem to have ignored that verse.
I heard a sermon of Brother Zac's once where he quoted someone who had said something like this: "The truth is not found in one extreme (Calvinism) or in the other (Arminianism) and much less in the middle. The truth is found in both extremes held simultaneously". Good quote.

Pursuing peace and Christlikeness,
cthom

Hi everyone,

Paul,

"I think we need more brothers and sisters who can square with the entire Word without having to fully comprehend every jot and tittle. I've found the Lord is most abundant in giving new light to those who admit they lack it...

...The sad thing with all this is that the "light" a camp adherent clings to is often a borrowed light, acquired by another man's theologic compartmentalization, packaged and distributed en masse via convenient glass bulbs."

Have been thinking about this off and on today and wonder if there was not a confluence of these things happening with the people and the religous leaders in the time of Christ.

[i]having to comprehend every jot and title[/i]

What came to mind today was what the Lord Jesus told the people in John 10:34-36.

They had just tried to stone Him, and he put to them these statements about Psalm 82.

Calling this portion of the scripture [i]their law[/i] and declaring that the scripture cannot be broken, he asks them why they have made the judgements they have about Him.

Was it some ideas they already had about the scriptures, or the Messiah, that prevented them from accepting the testimony of the works that were being done in front of them? Were the people basing their views of the Messiah and the scriptures upon what the religous authorites had told them?

[i]...light to those who admit they lack it[/i]

Before this(edit: before this that happened) in John chapter 10, the Lord Jesus had told some of the Pharisees,

"...but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth."

Very edifying thread...I am blessed for having read it.

The fact that we do not understand all written in the scripture gives it a quality that is challenging to the mind and spirit. If you do not understand it, you know that at some point in time the Holy Spirit may reveal it to you, but you won't worry about that time...and when it happens it is a "WOW" moment. And your heart fills with so much love and gratitude and worship to the one who said it, namely the Lord.

The scriptures is alive. No other piece of literature has this quality about itself.

Blessings,
ginnyrose

´dear brother Mahoney, i dont think anyone is saying we cant know or should not seek to know, but somethings we can not know or understand, as brother Paul said about the dimmed glasses we are seeing through, at some point we can not understand, God is infinite, how can a finite mind wrap itself around the infinite? it is impossible, yet we can see some through that dimmed glass... we can see some shapes and some forms and soo on, and we can see perhaps a pattern.

One thing that woke me up is I have been a believer for just a few years, yet i had the inward attitude i knew it all, not just knew the doctrines i "liked" or believed to be true, but i knew all the cults doctrines, i know the islam doctrines, i know the multitudes of christian doctrines, and the varieties within the multitudes of doctrines, and i had a sense i knew much better then all, in theory it would not be impossible for me to bee the one who understood gods doctrines the best of all humans yet to walk this earth, someone has to be that man...

But God humbled me, what makes me passionate about this issue, is not that it is possible to know, but the fact it has caused division, and God showed me the utter ignorance in saying "i know" the truth in its fullness.

William Secker wrote something like, the doctrine is the cutting out the garment from the cloth, but practicing is to wear it.

Some of those most ungraceful men i have meet was those who claimed they believed in "the doctrines of grace". Not speaking of people here on the forum, and I myself has been anything else then graceful in many discussions.

Yes we can say the Holy Spirit showed me this to be true, but you have another man saying the very same thing on the other side, my self have found both sides to be true to some extent, i could write a book on what i believe and why, but to me it has lost its importance, I have no trouble saying it is all of God, in salvation, in keeping us, in helping us, in filling us, even breathing.... God made the air so how can i even take credit for breathing? at the same time, no one can deny the other sides claims on mans free will, and the many parts of scripture that seemingly either seem just plain stupid or waste to write, if the are not what they say, or there is truth also, the problem is we see these shapes, and we so desperately want to know, but knowing is not always the best, somethings are needful to know, but somewhere there is a line drawn, what is for god to know and what is for us to know and search out, i can not say where that line is, but i know Adam crossed it with serious consequences. The tree it self was not evil, it was good, God made it...

What i believe we should search for, is to reconcile these seemingly two opposites, just as a loving god and a God of wrath seem very contradictory and very many believers cant come to grips with that, so some of us have a problem with other seemingly contradictory things.

does that make the other side untrue? does Gods love make his wrath untrue? or smaller? no... if God can be totally human.... and he can be totally God at the same time, if God can be merciful and yet the judge of all things.... why can not God be sovereign and man have free will? why can not God elect and predestination and yet man be responsible and "co-working" in salvation?

I must say I dont know, but one thing I do know, these things have a way of getting the best out of us, the bible is full with warnings and exhortations to the truth, but its good too remember that Paul also wrote this, i like it, it is on a page just before the bible starts on a white empty page with just this one verse in it in one of my study bibles... to serve the diligent student of one single humble fact.

[i] And if anyone thinks that he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know. [/i](1Co 8:2 NKJ)

And when the apostle Paul wrote such a thing, who am I to puff myself up to think i figured out the almighty and his ways? so some mystery there will always be brother, no matter how much we can understand, and be it God reveals something to me or you that only a handful of souls throughout time could understand, yet we know nothing like we like we ought to know...

another thing, the more we claim to know, the more we should demonstrate that knowledge in living. I have shamed myself many a times for example speaking against some doctrine and some who hold it, yet me life is but a shadow of men who held that doctrine. my pitiful prayerlife, my cowardly witness, my inconsistent temper, my uncontrolled tongue, compared to men who held an "faulty" doctrine in my eyes, all who i claim have a faulty doctrine should i outlive by the true doctrine i hold, the truth will set us free....

anyway, just rambling out my thoughts on this, God bless you brother

refuse to throw up my hands and just say "God knows. Yes, He does, but according to the scripture, he has given us the Holy Spirit so that we can know also. This type of concession is what causes certain denominations to hold to, and never change, doctrinal positions (such as the one Paul West mentioned). They stop learning. They stop seeking. They stop knocking, settle into an experience, and base their entire theology on a revival that happened decades ago.

For many of these truths of scripture I now have a clear or at least working understanding. Meditating upon them brings joy to my heart and causes me to glorify and praise God for what He has done.

Blessings to you.

Paul

I agree with what you say brother Mahoney. I believe scripture is clear in teaching the doctrines of Election and Predestination. I know they are true.

However, and I can only speak for myself, I don’t know how it all works out. I have yet to fully grasp the finer details of man’s responsibility in light of certain aspects of the doctrines of grace. This is when I look up to God and say, “Thou knowest.” I simply do not have all the answers. Perhaps they too will be revealed to me someday, but for now I receive abundant peace by resting in the fact that God does in fact know.

C.H. Spurgeon and J.C. Ryle, just to name a few, often admitted to not having all the answers. They did not deny the truth as revealed in scripture, just accepted man’s inability to perfectly reconcile every aspect.

My 2 cents...

I agree brother Mahoney, we should know what the bible teaches, the problem is to reconcile what we learned to other things we also must learn as we go, as i said Gods love and gods wrath are to many two opposites, but they are two of Gods characters, and both are a most profitable and comforting and a fearful study.

I think the problem arises when we find a doctrine we especially like for some reason, or when wrestling long enough to come to grips with something and when we do, we so delight in the fact we have understood it we seek no longer to know the rest or to reconcile it to other scriptures, let say we study Gods love, and the awesome study so delights us we dont care to try reconcile it to gods wrath, we can all see in our christianity today what such a "one-sided" minded theology has done to christianity.

So i think we are in the danger zone so to speak with many others, some see what the extreme teaching of "free-will" has done and in a result they study the other side and delights in what they find so much they care not study any more but just settles down, some may be brought up in the other camp and see what void preaching of mans responsibility produces so they react against that and only study that side. To me this type of one sidedness will create the same as just preaching Gods love or just Gods wrath, it will leave us unbalanced if continued to long and only either create false condemnation or false assurance.

So i am glad for all those who have understood Gods election and predestination, many have a problem with it, but let it not hinder you from studying and understanding mans "role" in the journey. I believe many stop once they find the satisfying feeling they figured something out.

It happens in both sides i think. Myself have come to a satisfying understanding of both mans role and Gods election that to me do not contradict each others, I am probably more calvanistic then many believe :-) i am just concerned for those who totally "rejects" mans free will, completely, for in doing so they reject large parts of scripture.

So I hope we all are encouraged to study the "other" seemingly contradicting side even if at first glance it looks strange and incomprehensible, just as Gods love and Gods wrath can to someone who never studies it seem very unlikely to be true, and the fact god is God and man at the same time may seem to be very unlikely to many, but after carefully study we can amen both.

I have found the same to be true regarding Predestination and election and mans free will and ability to chose God.

For a while the debate only caused me to study my "persuasion" much more so i could have clever answers for those who might disagree with me, but when I later studied the other side i saw something i first was not willing to see, but god was merciful and patient with me.

Probably in the beginning i was closer to being a calvinist then anything else probably because my much reading Spurgeon and ryle and others , and much listening to washer and other reformed preachers, but at one time i saw there was more to study, and i studied the human side without any mans oppinion, the hundred of verses, the many many examples and pictures and saw that there was a whole aspect i had missed. Today i have a clearer understanding, and i am grateful i stopped studying just to reinforce my already convinced mind, but i studied to know the truth of what scripture teach, not to teach others but to live accordingly myself. And the word opened up new aspects i earlier had not been willing to see.

I can just recommend all to do the same, Brother Pauls advice i would call it, should be done by all of us regularly to "check" up on our doctrines and believes, to read the word as we read it for the first time. So often do we come with an already made up mind what scripture says and teaches, how can we be taught when we have an attitude of already knowing?

God bless you all in knowing the truth and the God of truth be with you

And so, if justification can be understood, clearly and simply defined, then I believe that election and predestination can be also.

The reconcilling of man's responsibility with God's sovereign election is not an easy one. In fact, they seem at total opposites of each other and dialectically impossible. But nonetheless we see this dichotomy running through the NT like an interwoven thread of silver and gold. Churches have been split over it, sects fractured, Wesley and Whitefield parted fellowship (though never friendship) for a time because of it, and it has been the bane of many an internet forum, including this one in recent times.

It's a viable, present issue that all of us must come to grips with sooner or later as we mature in God. Some of us have it reconciled in our minds one way, and some of us have it reconciled another way...with both saying they were taught of the Holy Spirit through clear, indisputable scripture. Even though I had a Pentecostal upbringing (AG credentialed), it might surprise you how much I attribute now to the sovereignty of God; and, in fact, many here would be offended by it.

But this is where I am at this point in my walk. Five years ago, however, I was at another place and preaching a different type of theology. Where will I be in 2014 should the Lord tarry and let me live? I would like to think further down the same road I am now, only with a much greater revelation of God's grace and an even smaller estimation of myself.

This seems to be the pattern so far, anyhow :)

Paul

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I just read hmmhmm's last post. He spoke of being more Calvinistic than Arminian when he first started out; and with me it was the opposite. I find this an extraordinary and profound lesson in God's desire for balance. It seems the Lord would have us avoid the outer fringes, the extremes of these popular theological mindsets and as we grow, place us in a more centralized position. To a place where both can be amalgamated and remedied in our hearts and minds. This "fringe" mentality is typical of youth in the carnal; we can see the pattern in teenagers and other immature persons going off zealously in one direction or another. Think of the flambouyant hairstyles, the rebellion, the absurd music, outlandish clothes, the bad attitude, the know-it-all confidence, the propensity to idolize athletes and movie stars and musicians, etc. The marks of immaturity, indicative by an intense swerving to the left or to the right of the road and just staying there. But as the person matures (hopefully), we should begin to see these immature phases drop off and a steady, balanced lifestyle in their stead prevail.

I Think this danger of just being on one side, or limiting one self, is dangerous, but there are some who can be long out on either side but still accept the fact they dont know all yet, and whatever side we are on, we are a part of Christ body, the body, a healthy one has one right arm and one left arm, one right eye and one left, if a person only have one right leg his walk will be somewhat stumbling, he can not move as fast as one who has two.

I have seen this "exclusiveness" in more areas in christendom, the issue of gifts i had a problem with in the beginning also, i started out in a pentecostal church that was very charismatic, and the only thing that mattered was speaking in tongues. This made me frustrated to an extreme where i for a small time totally rejected all gifts and had several explanations with scriptures to back up my belief, but this was a reaction to a extreme that led me into another extreme just as wrong, i responded to one faulty doctrine to go into another one. Election and free will may not be exactly the same, but i think the same dangerous principle lie very close for all of us, in reaction to "hyper" calvinism some leap into extreme free will doctrines that are heretical, and some see these free will extremes and react and go far of in calvinistic extremes and basically think man is just a puppet so to speak. I know these are broad strokes but i hope you can see my point, that is why an open mind is important when study scripture. And Zac Poonen once used the illustration with the issues of gifts that we have a healthy hand, but some focus on one finger, that finger may be the gift of tougues that that finger becomes so large the whole hand is abnormal, one giant finger ant the other whiter away, all they speak about is this one finger, some see this abnormal hand in disgust and want nothing to do with such a finger or hand so they shop it off, now they have a four fingered hand and they like that.

But a healthy hand have five fingers in natural proportions, so we need to have naturally proportions in all other doctrines, election and free will both have a place in scripture, we might have trouble to find out how, and problem grasping to what and how it works together, but it is a very dangerous thing to "shop" of something off, and a balanced body, a healthy body leaves room for two arms, one left and one right, two eyes and two legs. Maybe a doctor can explain better how they work together but they move one at the time when walking, through nerves and the mind ordering them, so God is our head as the body have one head, And he have two aspects of many things in scripture, maybe my right arm is much stronger and more much used then my left, but it does not deny the truth that my left arm exists, or that my right arm need the left arm to tie my shoe laces, or when it needs to be scratched. So we need sometimes in the body a strong brother who believes in free will, and one who believes strongly on election, together the represent the fullness of the body, both need each other, some reasons we have seen, exposing pride in me, encouraging to study, and much more.

surly God has a reason, or several, and whatever reason it is for our benefit, if we accept it. I know satan has used this to set up camps, divide, and make people judge each others wrongly and falsely.

We can only humble ourselves and seek to know the truth more then we want to maintain our doctrines. Balance in food for the body is vital, neglect can cause low energy, weight loss, and sickness, over abundance in heart problems, weight problems and both can result in early deaths, so can an unbalanced eating of the scriptures.
So let us not exclude the other just because we find one to be true.

Rightly dividing the word of truth....

God bless

tjservant wrote:
I agree with what you say brother Mahoney. I believe scripture is clear in teaching the doctrines of Election and Predestination. I know they are true.

However, and I can only speak for myself, I don’t know how it all works out....
I simply do not have all the answers.

My 2 cents...

Thank God for one that doesn't know all the answers!!

To me, the problems lies in people saying they don't understand or know it all and yet STILL teach election and predestination! My friends and I go to the jail every Wednesday night; before I lay hands on those girls and pray for them, I ask them, "have you been saved?" Every single one smiles and says, "Oh yes! When I was ____"

I would never tell someone they are NOT saved so I say nothing, but I do usually follow up with, "When was the last time you walked with Christ?" Here is where any discrepancies come out but bless God, they have been taught that they ARE elected and predestined to be with Christ regardless of any lifestyle they live.

I'm not picking on you TJ, just using your quote loosely to try and point out what I see as a discrepancy in the church. I hope it made sense, if not, just dismiss it!

I think something needs to be clarified. When I and other Reformed brethren on the board defend the perseverence of the saints, we are defending something quite different from the OSAS teaching advocated in most modern churches. The modern OSAS teaching separates justification from sanctification, which is what you were running into, Lysa.

I think when some see us defending the perseverance of the saints, they think we are defending the average modern interpretation of it, and that is not the case. It may be helpful to read through the Canons of Dordt on this topic. It isn't long, and would clarify what we are advocating and what we are rejecting.

With care in Christ,
Taylor

hi lysa, i think brother taylor said it well, i think the modern reformed people are missing much from what the old puritans taught, the puritans did not only have these doctrines but such high and lofty lifes that accompanied their doctrines. This has been largely overlooked today and sadly missed. What my fear is this easy belivism that is rampant is causing multitudes to run away from this extreme into another extreme as i mentioned in my previous post. I echo brother Pauls "balance" in all things, and it is easy for someone to see the extreme versions of reformed theology, and run way over the other side and miss the glorious truths that are to be found in reformed theology because some have gone over the edge.

If i where you i also would feel frustrated hearing such people say they are saved, we can not know but we can encourage them to examine themselves and show from scripture the pattern that should be visible if one is saved and ask does this sound like you?

Also i think election is much misunderstood, its election to become like Christ, yes a biproduct is heaven for sure, but the main evidence is day by day we become more like him while we are on earth until that final day when the transition is complete. So i am sure if we had preached more election to christlikness instead of heaven election the confusion would be much less, and easy belivism would not be so wide spread.

hmmhmm wrote:
If i where you i also would feel frustrated hearing such people say they are saved, we can not know but we can encourage them to examine themselves and show from scripture the pattern that should be visible if one is saved and ask does this sound like you?

hmmhmm wrote:
Also i think election is much misunderstood, its election to become like Christ, yes a biproduct is heaven for sure, but the main evidence is day by day we become more like him while we are on earth until that final day when the transition is complete.

I can teach that and they will understand it.

God bless you,

TaylorOtwell wrote:
I think something needs to be clarified. When I and other Reformed brethren on the board defend the perseverence of the saints, we are defending something quite different from the OSAS teaching advocated in most modern churches. The modern OSAS teaching separates justification from sanctification, which is what you were running into, Lysa.

I think when some see us defending the perseverance of the saints, they think we are defending the average modern interpretation of it, and that is not the case. It may be helpful to read through the Canons of Dordt on this topic. It isn't long, and would clarify what we are advocating and what we are rejecting.

Canons of Dordt (1st ¶ of the conclusion)
And so this is the clear, simple, and straightforward explanation of the [b]orthodox teaching[/b] on the five articles [b]in dispute in the Netherlands[/b], as well as the rejection of the [b]errors by which the Dutch churches[/b] have for some time been disturbed.

If I raised the title of this paper, Canons of Dordt, (never mind the words "orthodox" and reformed theology ), with the girls at the jail - I would lose them before I even got to the end of my first sentence.

I thank you for this link and the explanation of the difference but for realities sake, it is NOT conducive to teaching the girls at jail how to be overcomers; and in all honesty, if it's not going to help me help them, I'm cannot waste my time reading 27 pages of not just this but anything.

I will be honest, I have stayed out of this discussion because I know nothing about it. I only wanted to report on the effects of (OSAS) what I have seen in jail system.

I have never studied Arminianism nor Calvinism and it's not because I'm too good to study it; I can see now that it won't help me help those I'm sent to help. The Bible is the help they need and I am going to use Christian's definition of election! "Election to Christlikeness," they will understand that!

God bless you Taylor!

I like this, I'm going to use this! ok? Yes, I am; I'm in agreement with "election to christlikeness!!" I can teach that and they will understand it.

well i cant take credit for it :-) its what the bible says, actually there is not one single verse in the whole of bible that says we are predestined, elected, to heaven. I have not found one. Many speak of believers being in heaven, but not with the same context as predestination and election.

For whom he did foreknow, [b]he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son[/b], that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

there is the whole of predestination :-) if we preached that there would be less confusion, its easy to see wheter we are being more and more like Christ or not, just compare with him in the book, if you are that is the best evidence you are saved and born again and if you are predestined.