CAN BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS LOOSE SALVATION and END UP IN HELL?

CAN BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS LOOSE SALVATION and END UP IN HELL?

yes i believe scripture says it is possible, iin many parables and many illustrations from old testament, in the apostles letters all have some things showing there is such a possibility, And i think Revelation shows it is possible without a doubt. But I also believe it is utter impossible as long as we want to be saved and continually come to him, and hold fast, take heed, make our election sure, abiding in him.... all through his grace and mercy then we can never be lost ever, but for those who dont do that i am not so sure.

But i am not sure :-) and having discussed this to many times i just wanted to answer your question that have the possibility to easy "get out of line", so in all discussion remember

And if anyone thinks that he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know. (1Co 8:2 NKJ)

just posted that in another thread, but it ggoes well with this issue also

God bless you and keep you all

There are two sides on this issue: a definite "YES" camp and a definite "No" camp. Both are not short of scriptures to back their cause.

I know lovely and gracious believers on both sides of the issue.

I don't think it is an emphatic "NO", because there are too many scriptures that support the "YES" camp.

I just read this morning in 2 Samuel 7:15: "But my mercy shall not depart away from him (David), as I took it from Saul, whom I put away from thee."

Oh, that's Old Testament, many will say. I'm not sure one can dismiss it so easily.

As for me, I'm abiding in Him to keep a clear conscience and ensure I don't trample on His grace and mercy.

It is better to walk in the fear of the Lord, than go around and boast "once saved always saved."

No, and to believe otherwise is blasphemy against God's character and should be repented of promptly.

With care in Christ,
Taylor

Re: CAN BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS LOOSE SALVATION and END UP IN HELL?

Yes, I believe they can.

My personal belief is that this teaching has done more harm then we will ever begin to imagine on this earth and the implications are exactly what Matt 23.15 speaks of.

I live in the Bible belt and I have to listen to this teaching of: "your past, present and future sins are forgiven." [b]Where is the Scripture that EXPLICITLY supports that our future sins are forgiven?[/b]

Thank you and God bless you,

Taylor,

I'm halfway in your camp, but please exlain your interpretation of 2 Sam 7:12, 1 Cor 6:9, and Hebrews 6:4 - 6.

Mahoney wrote:

So how does this teaching differ from Roman Catholic teaching on justification.

A great deal i would say, in Joh 3:16 we se the word beliveth, this greek verb does not exist in swedish or english, the best way to describe it is to say he who believes and continue to believe.

So we are justified by faith, its a gift from God by if neglected or abandoned as any gift, i am not sure such people will be in heaven. The greatest warning and one of the things that settled it for me is pauls warning about the isralites, scripture and Paul says that

1Co 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
1Co 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1Co 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
1Co 10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

All had a part in Christ, they drank living water from Christ, yet what happened to them?

let it serve us as a warning and en encouragement to make our "election and calling sure".

1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

My question was specifically directed toward brothertom's teaching that sin can nullify the righteous standing of a truly regenerate/born-again individual.

I dont believe one sin is enough, just as one righteous act will not make some one righteous.

We are talking about truly born-again, raised from the dead believers, brought to life by the Spirit of God, free from the condemnation of the law because they are in Christ who already bore the Wrath of God (...looked upon the suffering of His soul and he was satisfied) and paid the just penalty for sin. We are talking about these people losing their righteous standing before God.

yes, these where the people Paul wrote his letter to, giving them a warning that the Israelites had drinken from the spiritual rock wich was Christ, they had received from Christ, eaten and drinken from HIM, they where not false converts, they had part in Christ, yet did not reach the destination God had chosen for them. He uses this example for a reason and to me i think it is possible once to stand right in Gods eyes and in the end stepped outside that place to where we are not right. I leave room for that possibility and see it in scripture.

The death of Christ paid the just penalty for sin and covers the sin of that individual.

yes this is true, but if a truly born again beliver choses to depart from the faith due to he want the world or sin more? please himself rather then God? i dont believe this happends without God chastens us and by his grace and goodness offers multitudes of opportunities for repentance, but since love is a free choice, and if God would justify me without me wanting him to, or if he want to keep me when i dont want to be kept, that could not be love, that would contradict Gods very essence of who he is and would be a violation of his character.

I have no problem with all of the warnings in the bible because all they will do for a truly born-again individual is cause them to cling more and more to Christ. Faith is a position of weakness.

i agree, but if the warnings do not really warn from a real danger why even write and warn someone when they are in no real danger anyway? it does not seem logical? and if we never ever under any circumstances or reasons can be in any danger, i think every letter maybe except phillipians and colossians are just a waste of paper, since it does not really matter wheter you read and take heed to the warnings since they can not effect your eternity anyway.

I know these are broad strokes, but this is what i see :-) we see it differently but it is ok, i have not figured out when and exactly how someone can lose their salvation, but i am completely sure it can take place and leaves room for such a possibility.

Mahoney wrote:

I dont believe one sin is enough, just as one righteous act will not make some one righteous.

One sin condemned the entire human race.

You are right, one righteous act will not make anyone righteous...500 righteous acts cannot make a person righteous, only faith in Christ.

amen, i just wanted to show the utter stupidity to think one sin will cast someone out from heaven.

I have not figured out when and exactly how someone can lose their salvation

The question arises now as to when this happens; how many sins must be committed before God irretrievably withdraws and consigns the once-regenerated believer back to eternal damnation? The Word isn't clear on this. But the warning seems to be there - as befuddling as it may be as to how it actually occurs. When Jesus assured the thief that he would be in paradise, was there a remote chance that a roque, sinful thought might disqualify him from the promise before he died?

Since it is the Spirit of God that ever spurs us onward to repentance from dead works and desiring to do the Father's will - even if we are sorely and frequently missing the mark - it would have to be the effects of the absence of the Spirit that relegates a person back into the depths of nondesire for the things of God.

More thoughts to come - wife and son are calling.

I know I'm new here but after reading your post I couldn't help but reply. Especially on "the stupidity to think one sin will cast someone out from heaven".

Please let us reason together! How many sins did the devil and his angels need? How many sins did it take Adam and Eve? How many sins would it have taken our Lord? How much sin is in heaven? This is not a hard thing to understand. One unrepentant sin, is enough. Let's just take one specific unrepentant sin. Unforgiveness- The Lord said if you don't forgive others neither will my Father forgive you. The key is repentance (or unrepentance) not the amount of sin or sins you commit. But I would venture to say that if you are living a daily sin and repent type of Christianity then at worst you aren't even saved, and at best are completely ignorant of the power we have in Christ to live Holy lives, through the Holy Spirit.

Danman wrote-But I would venture to say that if you are living a daily sin and repent type of Christianity then at worst you aren't even saved,and at best are completely ignorant of the power we have in Christ to live Holy lives, through the Holy Spirit.

___

Question about what you shared above? Doesn't the Lord open our eyes and hearts to sin in our life so that we might repent? Doesn't He open our eyes to sin that we ourselves may not even be aware of until He shows us? There are times when I find myself very often seeking Gods face and asking forgiveness for sin that just a day or even a few hours ago I was not aware of. There have been times when I stumble and might loose my temper, I may speak harshly toward my husband and the Holy Spirit quickens to my heart that I am in sin, so I repent. Not sure I understand what you wrote above?
rdg

rainydaygirl wrote:
Question about what you shared above? Doesn't the Lord open our eyes and hearts to sin in our life so that we might repent? Doesn't He open our eyes to sin that we ourselves may not even be aware of until He shows us? There are times when I find myself very often seeking Gods face and asking forgiveness for sin that just a day or even a few hours ago I was not aware of. There have been times when I stumble and might loose my temper, I may speak harshly toward my husband and the Holy Spirit quickens to my heart that I am in sin, so I repent. Not sure I understand what you wrote above?
rdg

[i]Doesn't the Lord open our eyes and hearts to sin in our life so that we might repent?[/i]

Yes, He does but it is up to us if we really want to obey that leading to repent or not; or do we want to pet that sin in our life a little bit longer? (Do we want to think about that tomorrow, like Scarlet?)

[i]For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;[/i]
Romans 1.18

Notice it says, "[b]who hold the truth in unrighteousness[/b]." They have the truth and hold it "IN" unrighteousness.

[i]Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful;[/i]
Romans 1.21a

People can try to explain this away but it says as plain as my eyes see it, "[b]when they knew God[/b], they glorified him not as God." They knew God but they decided somewhere along the line to not glorify Him and begin to take it for themselves. I don't think this is a one time thing, it is a habitual non-glorifying of God.

Again, this doesn't sound like you at all, not from your posts.

God bless you!!

rainydaygirl wrote:
There have been times when I stumble and might loose my temper, I may speak harshly toward my husband and the Holy Spirit quickens to my heart that I am in sin, so I repent.

I do not know how many unrepentant sins God will put up with. I believe that He will put up with none in heaven but here on earth, how long He lets us live continuing in our sins is entirely up to Him... while He tries to reign us in that we might be like Christ but I do believe that there is a point where we turn a blind eye to Him and what He is trying to do in us.

I believe this is represented by the following verses.....

[i]/They perish/ because they did not receive the love of the truth in order to be saved.
For this reason God sends them a strong delusion so that they will believe what is false, so that all will be condemned––those who did not believe the truth but enjoyed unrighteousness.[/i]
2 Thess 2.10-12 HCSB

I do NOT believe that this verse is reserved for the unsaved because it says the love of the truth came to them but they didn't [b]"receive"[/b] it.

It also doesn't say how many times God sent the love of the truth about something nor does it say HOW many truths [b]about ourselves[/b] He sent before we stop hearing and He sends us a strong delusion.

I don't believe that God sends the ALL encompassing truth to us and like a computer we download it! I believe He sends us what we can handle but it's up to us to believe Him and in the work that wants to do in us. Only believe.

[i]For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.[/i]
Hebrews 4.3

I hope this makes sense and please know that I don't believe that I have all knowledge on this subject (I know I don't!); this is just how I understand it according to the question you asked. I hope it helps but if it doesn't, toss it out!

I know there is millions of opinions on this but this is my opinion. If salvation can be lost, this requires a reversal of regeneration. This means the born again must become unborn again. And if they subsequently repent, then they must become born again again. Can a man also be born again again again? Where does it end? Is regeneration really so transient?
If salvation can be lost, "eternal life" cannot be eternal life. It could only be temporary hope for eternal life that couldn't become eternal life until after we die. As long as we're still here, how can we call "eternal" what can be lost? Scripture says believers currently have eternal life, not that we might eventually have eternal life. It says that the life we have is eternal, not possibly or potentially eternal (or "to be determined" by whether we manage to keep or lose it). It says we can know that we have eternal life (1 John 5:13). How can we know that if our salvation isn't secure?
If we can lose our salvation, we can also keep it—by abstaining from whatever it takes to lose it. This makes it at least partially dependent on our merits. This flies in the face of Scripture's teaching that salvation is a miraculous work of God, dependent on Him, not us.

This has been a struggle in my own life, my answer is i don't know. But i wonder if it is possible that some people might have false conversion experiences or a false born again experience where they our awakened but don't come to be truly born again. I don't know. I myself had an experience 5 and a half years ago where i believed on jesus for healing and then his presence came and cleaned out many bad things out of me, i felt like a new person who did not care about the world anymore but to serve god, but then 2 months later i fell into deep sexual sin which i did not stop for 3 years till i got married, the holy spirit has since then left me. Was it a spiritual high, an awakening or was it true salvation i don't know.I had an understanding of the things of god and that god was real and that the bible was true and that christ was real. But my problem was a lack of understanding , i didn't know the seriousness of sin and how holy god was so when i did sin i did it not knowing how bad it was. I did not uunderstand the cross of jesus, the holiness of god, the hatred of god towards sin, etc. Why I didn't get convicted until i found out 6 months later from my pastor it was wrong i don't know. But i see the problem could be false conversion and not someone coming to true salvation in christ biblically with repentance and faith in christ to be saved of their sins. That is not why i believed on christ, i looked at god as a helper in my trouble not as a saviour of my sins. C.j cutrone has a great sermon on this site about conversion, saying most people come to god but fall away because they see him as a deliverer but not as their God. But i think just like the controversy between spiritual gifts, calvinism and arminiasm and eternally security is very much not clear in the scriptures completely, that is why now i am trying to take a more respectable look at all possibilities, unless god truly reveals it to me.

It is true one sin cast adam and eve out of the garden, it iss true one sin cast the devil out from heaven, this teaches us much and it is clear what way we should fear and hate sin and how we should avoid it to any cost, but i have seen for myself all sin is a choice between doing my will or gods, every time i do my will and Gods will is not that i sin, and many times maybe other men would not consider that choice sin. But it is, but i do not think God sits and erases my name from the book of life every time i sin, and fills it back in when i confess and repent.

As brother Paul wrote how many sins and how frequent must it be before we are in danger of damnation?

I dont know, but i can see the danger and possibility in scripture, maybe it not a question of quantity as in how many sins, but rather a question in our inward attitude, i think two believers can have the same defeated life and one go to heaven and one to hell, because their inward attitude towards sin.

But i am also sure as long as we allow God to humble us, as long as we humble us and come to him and are honest and true, confess and repent he will never cast us out, and honest we can all be in a moment, we can be honest in one second. God accepts honest people, for a long time i had the delusion that God accepted me when i was holy enough, when i stopped sinning certain amounts of sin ect. But he looks for honest people who can say with apostle paul, "in me dwells nothing good".

he does not want us to stay there in that state, but the healthy people dont need a doctor, and as long as i refuse to acknowledge my true condition God can do nothing for me. But once i am honest God can work, through faith i can receive everything from God.

And I believe God will show us our sin so we can deal with it, may not be the "great" sins adultery and so on, but the selfishness and prideful things in us, almost all sin have their root in these two sins that lay very deep in us, lust and looking with lust at a woman or to covet something is from a desire to satisfy me, it is selfishness. So the more we walk with the Lord and if we are honest he will "peal" away more and more from our selfishness. But if we are not honest we will not go forward.

And i think when we are stop being honest with ourselves and God we "move" towards this danger, stop confessing our true condition, stop being honest with God, stop cleansing us, our heart being hardened and if this condition is maintained i am fearful for such a state, i believe God will do many things to provoke us back to the right track, but still i think we ultimately can chose not to and persist in our own way. This is not an answer just my thoughts on this subject, I believe the possibility is there, how does it work, not sure.......

Hebrews 6

This chapter (edit: i.e. the interpretion of) has caused untold damage to Christian walks as it appears to contradict Romans 8.

We must remember that the writer is writing to [b]Jewish[/b] believers.

Hebrews 6:4-6

[i] 4For it is impossible for [b]those[/b] who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, [/i]

Who are 'those'? I contend that these are unconverted Jews. The Bible is an Eastern book and it must not be lost sight of. The Jews had tasted of the heavenly gift and been partakers of the Holy Ghost. At Pentecost the Gospel was preached to the Jew first. (see Romans 1:16)

[i] 5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
[/i]

Moving down the chapter we read

Hebrews 6:9

[i]9But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of [b]you[/b], and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. [/i]

Who are the 'you'? I contend that they are converted Jews who had been truly born again.

To pull these verses out and interpret them by reference to the modern Church is, I believe, error. The writer is not talking about born again believers in verses 4-6. The Bible does not contradict itself. Read the closing verses of Romans 8. There is eternal security.

In Christ

David

Regeneration is NOT accomplished by the will of man. As such, it cannot be lost by the will of man. Faith is an outcome of regeneration, not the cause of it. The book of 1JOhn was written to provide assurance to the believers of their position in God. Note how the writer balances the test on regeneration and not on the works of men (ie., believing, obedience and disobedience, charity ). We look for the these work/signs as evidence of being born again or regeneration, not the cause of it. John wrote this book primarily in his own words to assure the reader. Many very real Christians who hold to the position of "unsure salvation" are unknowingly working in the other direction. I say that with a broken heart because a great harm occurs among the brethern when their salvation in their minds becomes dependent on what they do and not on what Christ has accomplished for them and what the Holy Spirit has done in them.

david, if the book of hebrews does not apply to us in these times in the western culture, what parts of the book of hebrews does apply to us? and how can we make the right discernment wich parts apply and wich do not? and if we should make this dicernment, one would have to come to the conclusion the book of romans do not apply to us either since it was written for belivers in rom that probably had a large portion of jews by birth in the church also?

I find this reasoning to be very dangerous, and it would in the end leave us in western culture with little or even no scripture at all that apply to us. I do understand what you are saying that it was written for Jews in that time era, those where the authors object for writing, but it is also for us, the book of romans for example was not written for you either. It may have been different purposes for writing the letters, but does the reason exclude its validity for certain groups of believers? i dont believe that, not yet anyway.

Also i believe the same spiritual principle can be applied in hebrews to us, if we leave the faith , if we leave the true "being made justified by faith as a gift" to being made right with other means, after regeneration i do not think such a believer is eternal secure. Hebrew beliver or swedish or american.

whyme, i do not wish to speak of the sequence of regeneration, but I have found it is all of God, but that does not exclude man are in some strange "co-operation" , God does not save any one who does not want to be saved, against his own will, i can not find this anywhere in scripture, we may argue God works in us to "will" to be saved, i think he does, but ultimately it is a question on love, love is always a choice. If a snatch a woman out of the streets and say i "elected" you as my wife, and due to my very great love i have forced you to be married to me and i will manipulate your will so in the end you will want to love me. Some have this idea of God, i think God works in us in a way that he reveals himself in such a way we want to come to Him, we want to believe in him. Same as a woman who want to marry me, but if she in the period of time choses to leave me, she can will to do that, i think the pictures of marriage in the bible of christ and the church and individual is there for a reason, to show in some way there is a union of love, of sacred vows, of commitment, and i do not think we have no say in if we want to remain or not.

Just thinking out loud, havent figured this one out completely, but the scale for me is weighing over on the man in some way co operating in all things, and yet it is all of God so no man can boast, but yet he does not force us to heaven if we would desire self more, the world more, it is true there are magnificent promises, i take them all literal, and feel great assurance he will finish what he started, but that is valid only as long as i do my part, and that part is all of him i recognize, it is he who gives ability, he who gives desire to abide in him, and yet if i should not, i believe i have an option to chose that

paulmcg1 wrote:
I think this question is a devil-inspired question because their is so much confusion around it. .

I think this is the best answer so for, or at least makes as much sense as any answer so for, Why? because were does confusion come from? not from God or the Word of God, so I am going with the above answer.

Hi Hmmhmm

if the book of hebrews does not apply to us in these times in the western culture, what parts of the book of hebrews does apply to us?

I'm not saying that the book of Hebrews does not apply to us. It does, there is untold wealth of teaching in it. We need to be careful how we interpret it though, especially chapter 6. We could [b]apply[/b] verses 4-6 perhaps to those who make a profession of Christianity, but who've never been truly born again. To [b]interpret[/b] it as relating to those believers who are truly born again is, in my opinion, error.

This distinction between interpretation and application is important. There is only one correct interpretation of Scripture, but there are many applications.

Also i believe the same spiritual principle can be applied in hebrews to us, if we leave the faith , if we leave the true "being made justified by faith as a gift" to being made right with other means, after regeneration i do not think such a believer is eternal secure.

Then you are saying that a person can be justified by faith and then at some point subsequently can be unjustified. If God justifies somebody is that person not then justified? Are they only potentially justified? Or justified for as long as they hold on to it? This would make our salvation dependent on us i.e. God's will subject to our will. This cannot be.

The only point I'd like to share on this subject is to ask why people are always asking the "once saved, always saved?" question. I would venture to guess that in the majority of cases it is because they think that being a Christian is about earning salvation and a place in heaven by doing good works. And they find that living the Christian life is extremely hard if not impossible. So if it is true that once saved, you are always saved, they can give up the oppressive burden of trying to be faithful and holy. Bottom line is that they come to Christ in a purely self-centered way. They really only care about having their sins forgiven and getting into heaven, not on the Kingdom of God or the Body of Christ. They never came to the end of themselves and realized that as a sinner apart from Christ they are worth less than nothing. Never felt a desperate need for Jesus and cried out with heart felt conviction, "Have mercy on me a sinner". No, they came to Christ because someone told them all the benefits and how successful and happy they would be if they said the sinner's prayer. Well I have news for them, the Christian life isn't just hard to live, it is impossible. That is to say, it's impossible to live the Christian life in one's own strength, ability and willpower apart from the new birth and power of the Holy Spirit. Living the Christian life is about trusting, not trying. It's about our losing our self life, getting out of the way, and letting Jesus live in and through us. Abiding in the true vine and drawing life from Him. The key point is that the Christian life is about relationship first and foremost. Having and cultivating a close, intimate love relationship with the Lord, depending and relying on His guidance, leadership, strength and wisdom every moment of the day. When you have that, you don't ask the once saved, always saved question. The Holy Spirit bears witness that we are children of God.

Hmmm, First, let me say I am always humbled by your sincere and honest approach to Scripture. I don't disagree with anything you stated in your last post about love being a choice ( although this principle isn't really scripturally expressed ), about us cooperating in our sanctification, or about God not forcing men into heaven. What we are evaluating is what is accomplished in regeneration and whether the change can be temporary spiritual life or whether it is eternal life. I think First John tells us a great deal about what the born again believer's nature is and what that new nature causes the believer to do. Further, if Christ is interceding for us everyday so that as John 17 says we as believers will be one with the Father even as the Father and Jesus are one, you end up with your position then asserting that Christ's prayer may end up not being answered in the end with Amen. I find this very difficult to reconcile with what I know about Christ's position with the Father and with His authority over all flesh. Finally, I know you have taken a very definitive position that "all means all" in the Bible. I wonder why you wouldn't take the same position when Christ says "No One" and no power on heaven or earth shall pluck the believer from His hand. I say all this not to win a scriptural debate but because I think the apostle John and the apostle Paul for that matter said so much about the believer's security in Christ indicating a true concern that the Church know and more importantly understand it's corporate and personal position in Christ. Just in case it needs to be said, I am not saying the believer doesn't fall away at times, he does; I am addressing a final falling away.

This question needs to be truly answered not on a person's opinion, but the Word of God. We have way too many believers trying to find teachers and preachers to say what they want to hear, rather than what God's Word says. Man's opinion has nothing to do with this and should be left out of the situation completely. If there is any example in Scripture of a believer (a follower of Christ) turning away and losing his/her salvation, then it is possible. The Bible warns repeatedly to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. We understand from the accounts found in Revelation of the Churches of Asia were warned of what could happen if the sin was not dealt with (Revelation Chapters 2 & 3)-with phrases like "I will vomit you out of my mouth" speaking of lukewarmness or "Your name removed from the Book of Life." If your name is in the Book of Life (which records those who have been redeemed, how can you have your named removed unless this can occur with an unrepentant believer thus who "falls away"). You can not erase a name unless it is there!

The example of Judas, the disciple of Christ who betrayed Jesus is a perfect example of turning from God. I know I have heard many refer to Judas as someone who was never a believer (totally not true). Those who hold to an unconditional eternal security doctrine MUST always use the terms "false conversion" or "never saved to begin with." If Judas was never a follower of Christ and never accepted Him like the other disciples, then how was he able to heal the sick, raise the dead, and perform all the other miracles the other disciples did according to the Gospels? Does God allow his glory and power to flow through unbelievers? Look in Luke Chapter 9:1 "Then He (Jesus) called His Twelve Disciples together (this included Judas), and gave them power and authority over all devils and cure diseases. Why would a holy God give a false conversion, never saved to begin with person power and authority over all devils and cure diseases? Jesus could not have given Judas this power unless he was truly a follower of Christ. Either all the disciples were followers of Jesus or the requirements for ministry to be empowered by God contradict the Word of God, which it can not. I know some would say this is before the Cross, so the situation was still under the Law, not Grace. All the saints had to look towards the Cross by obeying the Law and fulfilling the requirements through animal sacrifice to have their sins covered until Jesus removed that by becoming the perfect sacrifice. All sin has been removed by the blood of the Lamb, including the sins that Judas committed. However, due to the fact Judas could not find repentance for his actions, he turned away from God and received as Acts 1:25 says "by transgression fell" referring to Judas. If Judas was not an apostle of Christ, why was he being replaced?

The Word of God clearly speaks of "falling away" in the last days in 1 Timothy 4:1 by saying "some will depart from the faith." How can a person leave or depart unless they have been there? If a person is at the airport and a plane departs from the terminal, the airplane had to be there to begin with. How can a believer depart the faith unless they are a believer? Unconditional eternal security is one of the most destructive teachings found in Christian thinking (this comes from the five points of John Calvin's teaching). Basically, it is based on the other four teachings Calvin and others suggested to explain this final part of the TULIP doctrine. For those who do not know this teaching it means the following:

T-Total Depravity of man (Man could not save him/her self-no free will in salvation-God picks you and you CAN NOT come to God unless invited or being called the "elect"

U-Unmerited Favor (Grace is not earned or gained, but given by God).

L-Limited Atonement of Christ (Jesus only died for the elect-not everyone-THIS IS THE MOST DEVIL INSPIRED DOCTRINE! Jesus died for ALL not some, His Blood is able to forgive ALL!) Preachers, missionaries, and evangelists every day are lying to millions when they offer salvation to the unelect (those who Jesus did not die for according to this false doctrine) by saying they can come to Christ and be saved! Quit preaching the Gospel and telling everyone they can be saved, because the elect will be saved no matter what man does! What a hellish doctrine this is!

I-Irresistible Grace- Once you have been given grace by God, you CAN NOT reject or turn from it. If God predestined you to be saved, you can not reject it no matter what you do.

P-Perseverance of the Saints (Unconditional Eternal Security) This only follows all the other thoughts of the following teachings. You can not lose your salvation if the other four teachings are correct. It is like a five story building, you can not build the fifth story unless you have the other four stories to build on.

Finally, if I am wrong in my understanding of what Scripture is saying, I will still be able to repentant and make my life in right standing with God by asking Jesus to forgive me when I sin. If those who thought they were right and could not lose their salvation and continue in sin are wrong, they will give an account for their sins that are not confessed and repented of. I would rather side on the side of caution and work out my salvation with the Lord's grace and strength instead of hoping to be correct.

God Bless

True Witness

AMEN

The thread question is "Can a born again Christian lose their salvation and end up in hell?"

To be truly born again is a very important question since Barna studies state exactly what you are saying. Most in the church today have never truly repented and turned to Christ for salvation. We have too many self-help messages instead of the Gospel being preached in our churches. If John the Baptist were to walk in most churches, he would still preach the same message he did as the fore=runner for Christ. Repentance is something hardly preached and understood within the church today!

Then you are saying that a person can be justified by faith and then at some point subsequently can be unjustified. If God justifies somebody is that person not then justified? Are they only potentially justified? Or justified for as long as they hold on to it? This would make our salvation dependent on us i.e. God's will subject to our will. This cannot be.

well its a to complex question for a short simple answer, but ill try :-)

God justifies, or i will use the word saves because of the initial question, God saved us, it was all by him, but he also saved the isralites from egypt, he split the red sea, yes moses put his rod in the water on Gods command and the sea opened, but i think even tho moses could have said i dont want to and taken the consequences from that he did have a part in doing obeying the word, but it was all of God. It was all of God sending food from heaven, yet how many of the saved isralites where led into the promised land? i hope it will be a larger portion in our sojourn from here to heaven, but i think God saved them and due to their life, attitude, sin, rebellion God did not lead them into the promise land. This Paul writes to us as a warning. all those isralites drank from Christ [b]spiritually[/b].... they where believers, chosen by God , saved all by God, and yet somehow he left them to die because of their sins, attitude and much more.

We are told we have put off the old man, like any garment i believe you want that filthy old stinking garment bad enough you can put it on again. Just my thinking.

whyme wrote:
Regeneration is NOT accomplished by the will of man. As such, it cannot be lost by the will of man. Faith is an outcome of regeneration, not the cause of it. The book of 1JOhn was written to provide assurance to the believers of their position in God. Note how the writer balances the test on regeneration and not on the works of men (ie., believing, obedience and disobedience, charity ). We look for the these work/signs as evidence of being born again or regeneration, not the cause of it. John wrote this book primarily in his own words to assure the reader. Many very real Christians who hold to the position of "unsure salvation" are unknowingly working in the other direction. I say that with a broken heart because a great harm occurs among the brethern when their salvation in their minds becomes dependent on what they do and not on what Christ has accomplished for them and what the Holy Spirit has done in them.

AMEN!

Regeneration is NOT accomplished by the will of man. As such, it cannot be lost by the will of man. Faith is an outcome of regeneration, not the cause of it.

Amen, again. This really is key to understanding the issue. If you believe you saved yourself it is only logical to believe you can loose yourself. This is simply not correct doctrine. So much misunderstanding and confusion can be done away with by simply submitting to what the Bible teaches and dropping humanistic presuppositions. Not saying it is always easy, just that it is necessary.

It is sad to think of how many people believe that the only thing keeping them safely in their Father's Almighty hand is themselves.

I know you have taken a very definitive position that "all means all" in the Bible. I wonder why you wouldn't take the same position when Christ says "No One"

I actually have, i do believe no one can separate us from Christ, not satan, no demon, no nero, no one can pluck us out of the fathers hand, as long as i remain in the fathers hand, i believe we could "jump out" from his hand if we want bad enough.

So i do believe nothing or no one can break us apart from christ, except i would do that myself, since i believe in love being the principal thing in our relationship with God, if this was not so, then he could have made Adam in such a way he could not chose to eat or not to eat, but since God wanted a "love-relationship" in obedience and in choosing to love God, he did not make adam such, and I dont think he makes us in such a way that if for some unimaginable reason one would prefer the self more then Him, that he would force us in some mysterious way so to speak.

I am not saying "this is how it is" "all you are wrong" but these are some "problems" i have with the once saved always saved, not the modern easy belivism stuff, but the old reformed stuff :-) some things i have not reconciled to LARGE parts of scripture, this is just a verse here or there losley ripped out of context, we have multitude of texts that seem to have the same fearful warnings, both to texts that can seemingly be to "unconverted" people, but also to definitely converted people, even tho i personally believe all scripture are written for Gods children and not for unbelievers.

Yblek, I am interested in your statement that Judas was definitely a believer. What is your basis for that? I haven't seen that before.

tjservant wrote:

It is sad to think of how many people believe that the only thing keeping them safely in their Father's Almighty hand is themselves.

I can see how you think and i would agree to some degree, but since i believe it is a co-operation, God says do this, i will give all my power, all my sustaining, persevering grace in unlimited ways, all is there for you, never fear anything.

I see this, but yet i believe some way in a co-operation between God and man, and by loves principal it is possible to chose "no"

I think we are to blind perhaps sometimes? to fixed in "must be one of those", i cant say i have figured it out, i definitely see what all are saying in scripture, and i agree, but I [b]also[/b] see the other side that no one on the always saved side has been able to explain in a way that satisfy my spirit and to reconcile it to the many many passages of scripture that does say something else, plainly. And i will just not say ok probably are you right because it make sense, no I want perfect peace in what i believe in, even if i cant figure it out and spell it out in words, by faith i can have peace, hope you know what i mean :-)

And i have read MUCH on this, from the old classical and sound teachers through out christendom, and the passages that make me go "there is more to this then osas" have not to me at least been dealt with in a way that i considered to be either true to the text at hand, or in a explaining away sort of to make the text "mean something else" then what is there, sometimes less, sometimes more. The closest i have found was H.Bonar, he gave an explanation to the letter hebrews with this issue of losing salvation, he explained why he did not believe one can lose salvation, but then he explain his fear of God makes him take the scripture on its word and if these verses are such verses he dares not say they meen anything else, and if that is the case we should fear, but he did not know for sure. That was sort of the closest i found yet.

But to me to cancel out ALL human choices, as in walking with God, time for Prayer and ect, giving time, money, to God as really we have no choice, and then sin for example? can we chose to sin or no? and if it is a yes? how much can we chose to depart from God if we are born again? a great deal i would assume from personal experience, but when does one cross the line? i dont know, but i am certain push and run far enough, one day we may find we crossed that line.

If my salvation has nothing to do with what I do as far as obedience as you are suggesting, why does the Word of God have so many warnings and directions for the believer? Why preach the Gospel then at all if the elect (God's chosen will be saved whether the message is preached at all!) That is totally ridiculous! God, who is all powerful, has chosen to limit how He works, through the vessel of the church. If the church chooses to not preach the Gospel, people will be found without hearing the Gospel. "Go" is a command of God for the Great Commission. God will not send angels to do this or any other vessel except the church. We do have a responsibility and are held accountable for our actions. Why do you think revival is lacking in America? Is is because God does not want to bring a revival? Or is it the church (believers) not following after God completely with their whole heart? Read Revelation Chapters 2 and 3. Does the Churches of Asia receive warnings because God will not do what He says He will do? To warn believers their names could be erased from the Book of Life is very serious. A name can not be erased unless it is there to begin with. Why would God hold those believers accountable for actions that you say have nothing to do with our salvation? We do not work for our salvation, but James also warns that without works our faith is dead. God will enable us to live the Christian life and give us the supernatural ability to be true Christians, but we can also reject this and turn away from Him too. To say every time someone "falls away" or "that person was never saved to begin with" gets very old and does not support Scripture. If one person in the Bible fell away from God, your whole thought process is incorrect. Judas fell away from God, yet he was a follower of Jesus. Luke 9:1 says Jesus gave all his disciples (Judas too) authority over every demon and to cure diseases. Was Judas not a follower then? Yet he rejected and turned away from Jesus and received what he deserved according to Acts 1:25.

Here you go Whyme!

Luke 9:1 states that Jesus gave all his disciples (including Judas) authority over all devils and to cure diseases. God CAN NOT give authority over the enemy unless they are part of His army or following. Jesus said Himself that Satan's kingdom can not be divided, neither can God's. Jesus could have never given Judas that authority of God unless he was a follower. The simple fact that Judas was healing and doing mighty miracles is amazing. But to have authority over devils is a necessity for only followers of God. Remember the man who tried to cast out devils in the name of the God of Paul. He was beat up pretty bad? We have no record of Judas receiving such a beating!

Yblek,

Don't you think it is at least plausible that Judas fits into the false prophet that Jesus warns of in Matthew 7:22? Judas propesied in His name and cast out demons yet he was a worker of iniquity ( the son of Perdition as a matter of fact ) and surely Jesus would have said of Him "depart from Me I NEVER knew you ). There must be something more in Scripture to prove Judas was a believer that the fact he cast out demons because Matthew 7:22 allows for even an unbeleiver to preach Christ and cast out demons.

Whyme

If Judas was not a follower and an apostle, why was he replaced?

Whyme

So you are saying that Jesus, the Son of God, would give power to a false prophet? That doesn't make sense. The Son of God would have never given that kind of authority! That would make God's kingdom divided! Reread Luke 9:1 carefully-He (Jesus) gave them authority and power, not some false prophet here, Jesus is the Son of God! False prophets have come and gone, but they have not been given the authority of God by God Himself!

Yblek, I don't know why Judas was replaced other than the account in Acts. Second, in answer about casting out demons, I can only point to Matthew 7:22 for the proposition that demons may be cast out and yet someone is an unbeliever ( under what authority the demons came out, I do not suppose for the Scripture is silent on that ). God gave Balam's donkey the power to speak prophetically. I suppose this stands for the proposition that even men with evil hearts can be used to accomplish God's own purposes. From a practical standpoint, I'm sure there are men who came to salvation through the Word being preached by unsaved preachers. Thanks for the discussion.

Second, in answer about casting out demons, I can only point to Matthew 7:22 for the proposition that demons may be cast out and yet someone is an unbeliever ( under what authority the demons came out, I do not suppose for the Scripture is silent on that ).

Scripture does say in Luke 9:1-the authority and power was given by God Himself (Jesus). You must accept the fact that Judas was a true follower.

Yblek,

My point about the authority for the casting out of demons was from Matthew 7 which is silent on that issue. Are you saying that God giving a power to someone expressly means they are a believer?

by loves principal it is possible to chose "no"

This is one of the presuppositions that subvert true doctrine. Human rationalization (what makes sense to us) does not make it biblically accurate.

But to me to cancel out ALL human choices, as in walking with God, time for Prayer and ect, giving time, money, to God as really we have no choice

Brother, this quote tells me you are not in clear understanding of the issue. The "free will" debate has NOTHING to do with daily choice and decisions. The age old issue is one of salvation and whether man plays a part in it. This comes from ones view of election. Those that believe they play a part in it believe they can play a part in getting out of it.

The issue is not about your choice as much as that it is by the power of God through regeneration you made it. Therefore it is ALL of God and provides nothing to boast of.

He chose me
He will keep me
He enables me to persevere.

He removed my heart of stone and replaced it with a heart of flesh that loves and desires to worship Him. I love Him because He first loved me. It is ALL of HIM and not me.

My "will" was never violated. When I was dead in trespasses and sin I could not choose, I was dead. He brought me to life and I love Him for it. I choose to serve Him. It is all because of HIM.

Whyme you said

My point about the authority for the casting out of demons was from Matthew 7 which is silent on that issue. Are you saying that God giving a power to someone expressly means they are a believer?

Here is my answer:

I believe this question answers itself. Be very careful when associating the power of God to Satan. Judas was given authority and power by Jesus (Luke 9:1). That is clear and should not be questioned. Judas' authority came from God. Secondly, I challenge you to find a person (not an animal) that God gave authority and power over demons who were NOT believers or followers. God uses yielded vessels, not forced pawns. Judas was yielded to the power of God and the authority of God.

tjservant wrote:

But to me to cancel out ALL human choices, as in walking with God, time for Prayer and ect, giving time, money, to God as really we have no choice

Brother, this quote tells me you are not in clear understanding of the issue. The "free will" debate has NOTHING to do with daily choice and decisions. The age old issue is one of salvation and whether man plays a part in it. This comes from ones view of election. Those that believe they play a part in it believe they can play a part in getting out of it.

I expressed myself wrongly :-) i know the osas do believe in daily free choices, but how far can we chose on a daily bases to depart from God before we gone to far, if that is a possibility? that was sort of what i was wondering, or wondering how you who hold or believe this to be what scripture teaches, maybe a "fuzzy" question and can be answered differently, or maybe in theory we can drift very far by our daily choices, choosing not pray, not reading the word, not fellowship with believers etc, and maybe even worse choices... i do see and know all God will do to such a person, but if the choice of such persons are free, and we can chose, how much wrong can we chose and still be saved? or is our choices limited? does God only allow us to chose to a certain degree?

right now i am in the group that think i had a part in being saved, not that i did anything, not that i have any to boast about, not that there is any goodthing in me better then the worst of sinners, but just as any man, when God offered His son for me and i saw this, i accepted his offer and what he done for me.... i believe i could have rejected the offer, but i dident, I believe God worked in me, i believe everything that holds me up moment by moment is his grace, would that depart i would in a second be the worst filthy sinner alive, yet i also believe and see in scripture synergism, to what extent man is involved i can not say, but i see man is involved somehow.

so i guess i am in this group :-)

Those that believe they play a part in it believe they can play a part in getting out of it.

It's been awhile since I've been around, but I just wanted to add something for everyone to think about.

Consider the following verse as it applies to Judas-
John 13:18 I am not speaking of all of you; I know whom I have chosen. But the Scripture will be fulfilled, 'He who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me.'

Indeed, the Scripture was to be fulfilled and Judas was "foreknown" as the one who would do this. Also interesting, is the fact that Christ says he knows whom He has chosen, yet Judas was not among the chosen.

Judas was not "saved".

As for the main discussion about one losing their salvation, may I ask, did David? did Abraham? did Peter?

Rather, they trusted God's promise, and last I saw, it says that none who call on the name of the Lord will be ashamed, but rather saved.

Not "my" answer or, "This is what I believe" or, "I think this is true".

The answer is no.

Roaringlamb, I would also add John 6:70 where Jesus tells the Twelve that one of them is a devil.

I hate to sound like a Calvinist, but Judas was in the position he was in as a disciple because God's plan from the very beginning was that Jesus would be betrayed... and the word "betrayed" means stabbed in the back by someone close to you. It had everything to do with prophecy and God's plan and will.

:-)

Doesn't sound like anything but Truth to me.

if you understood faith you would not even ask this ? . you triffle with this issue , why ?. Brothertom is 100 % right you CAN loose your salvation . The earnest of our inheritance , the Holy Spirit , can be removed from us . Read ezekiel ch . 33 . Jesus also said that our names can be blotted out of the LAMBS BOOK OF LIFE . the is a great falling away , to the Flood of sin on the earth today as in the days of noah , and even the ELECT are not exempt . LIFE in CHRIST is a probation , this is why HE is the Great Advocate , and God is the Judge and we have all been Guilty and will be Guilty outside of Christ ,,,, WE MUST OBEY GOD ,, JUST LIKE CHRIST OBEYED , if we are REALLY IN THE FAITH AND HAVE THE HOLY GHOST WE WILL OBEY , but if we turn from God and not WALK IN CHRIST [ BY OBEYING AS HE DID] and continue therein we will GO TO HELL .I know it is difficult to realize that HOLINESS is what is needed for those people who think Grace is something that it really is not . GRACE DOES NOT ENABLE US , grace shows us where we could, and should , OBEY GOD , and JESUS , as the son of man. was PERFECTLY OBEDIENT to God , FOR HIMSELF , JESUS DID NOT OBEY GOD FOR US. WE ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR our own OBEDIENCE. it is NOT once saved always saved , Brothertom you are correct , we can loose our salvation , it is all up to us to endure to the end .. To all who think your salvation is secure without the OBEDIENCE THAT REAL FAITH [ COMMITMENT ] HAS . Remember the words OF JESUS CHRIST " HE THAT ENDURES TO THE END SHALL BE SAVED " what is the enduring that must be done by us and what is the end we have to endure too , to be a citizen of Heaven forever ? all who honestly enquire of these shall know that we can LOOSE OUR SALVATION . thank you . Clint

hello bible 1985 , very good heart pouring out . This is exactly how you can talk to Jesus , He is a friend that sticks closer than a brother . He only asks for you to trust and take His manna for each day . Day by Day commitment , walking and not fainting is much greater tha soaring as the eagles and running and not being weary . the manna i speak of is , eating HIS flesh [ HIS WORDS ] and drinking HIS BLOOD [ HOLY SPIRIT ] . Jesus as our faithful true friend will show us which way it is that is ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS for us and this is the day by day , and moment by moment ,walking with, and abiding in JESUS [ the outshinning of GOD ]. I know that He knows your every question , . Trust the Holy Spirit to lead you and guide you into all truth , All Truth , IS JESUS HIMSELF .. God Bless , Love your post and what you shared of yourself . Being open and naked before Him with whom we have to do is great for us , because that Gives God something of ours to work with . . Take courage brother , and keep on knockin' and keep on askin', and Jesus will be opened too you . Clint .

Brethren,

If we say that man does not have to exercise his will by placing faith in Jesus Christ in order to be born of God, if we say that man does not have to exercise his will in faithful obedience to the commands of God in order to stay in fellowship with Him, and if we say that man does not have to endure until the end to final salvation, then we are saying that God does not love all his creation and has only decided to save some and not others. In fact we are accusing God of predestining some to everlasting life and others to everlasting destruction if man has no part before God in salvation. We also are violating the scriptures of man’s responsibility.

Also concerning Judas being saved, the scriptures say that he was the son of perdition. Judas was of the devil and would not repent and trust in Christ as his Savior and so he therefore would not be saved. God does not save people against their will but they must cooperate with God.

This thing about OSAS is the devil’s ploy to cause all kinds confusion among the brethren. God is not the author of confusion.

Joh 10:2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
Joh 10:3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
Joh 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
Joh 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

Those who belong to Christ know his voice and they follow him. They will not follow the voice of strangers because they don’t know them. We must make are calling and election sure. He has proven that he is the good shepherd and we must prove that we are one of his. The only way we can prove that we are one of his is by continually hearing his voice and continually following Him. If you say that you are saved and will always be saved, then don’t draw back unto perdition but believe unto the saving of the soul.

Blessings to all

So if we have gone back to losing our salvation then according to many scriptures we can't get it back, hebrews ch. 6 and 2nd peter. So if i loss my salvation i am better off just dying right now because their is no purpose to live but to die and go where you know i don't want to go. Maybe charles finney was right about his friend who said the holy spirit left him and the holy spirit never came back to the man. That is how i fill, like the holy spirit wil not come no matter how much i cry and pray and as charles finney says your heart will become hardened towards god like me. The only hope i have is this that i never truly repented of my sins and my only reasoning for coming to christ was for healing and not salvation from my sins, maybe the fact that i placed my faith in christ for the wrong thing and not for him to save me of my sins maybe that is why my faith fell the way it did. Maybe biblical repentance is the important thing, but that is my only hope that mine was not a true conversion because i did not place my faith in christ for salvation of my sins, i only came to christ for him to deliver and heal me and if he did not i probably wouldn't believe. That is my only hope, i never came to christ because of my sins, its that simple, but i was changed, but i guess not for the right reasons.

God is not the author of confusion.

True.

I endured several pain filled years trying to make sense of it all. I finally stopped listening to man and started reading the Word.

I am no longer confused.

The Bible is clear.

This thing about OSAS is the devil’s ploy to cause all kinds confusion among the brethren

I find that most of the confusion comes from those who do not accept it and spread misconceptions and false understandings.

I should know. I did it.

i dont know if i should be writing this but i will just say somthing that i have learned.

This is all i want to say, i belive in once saved always saved, i really belive that. i belive that the one who started a good work in me will FINISH IT.

now i believe that a person can find out that he was never saved for example, lets say someone professed his faith and shows some sort of genuine fruit for a time, it can even be a few years, but then he starts to fall away and starts doing things that are clearly sin and he does them without being broken over them and confessing and repenting but continues in his sin and other brothers and sisters come to him and warn him that if he continues on this path it me be proof that HE WAS NEVER SAVED IN THE FIRST PLACE NOT THAT HE LOST HIS SALVATION.

plus to tell you the truth guys, i might be totally wrong, but think about it if God is my father and i have been genuinely saved how in the world is God gonna let me go? like seriously you think you can run from God once you have been saved? their can be a period of when a person runs from God but it might be God allowing them or it might be part of his plan. But if they are truly Christian they will know the wrong they have done and they will come back. Paul Washer once shared how he wanted to run from God, but he said that no matter where he would run God would be their.

Once you have been born how can you be unborn?
once God gives you a NEW nature how can the old nature be put back in?
once you have a new heart how can the old heart be placed back in?

i believe in finding out that you never have been saved but losing your salvation, doesn't seem right to me at all.

O sluefoot must be grinning from ear to ear reading this thread. :-(

Jesus' obedience to the leading of the Holy Ghost and God , and Himself , does not become our obedience , ever . Jesus' obedience to he great law of ,, Loving the Lord His God with all His heart and all His soul and all His strength , was done ,and perfectly done by Jesus for the Good of God and the whole universe , but this obedience never ,ever , ever , becomes our obedience . We are to the Love the Lord our God with all our hearts and minds and strength . Having the mind of Christ , means taking on the same mind Jesus had as a man , and that was to fulfill all the law of God , which i have already stated here . There is absolutely nothing that God accepts as virtue except obedience to His moral law . Jesus obeyed Becuase it is the ONLY WAY TO ,, WILL GOOD or to Good Will " which is always about God and His Good first . What i am saying is that Jesus' obedience , is never accounted to us as our obedience, Both us and Jesus had to obey God for ourselves . This does however afford a great deal of blessings upon the whole world as a result of this Good will to God that only obedience to the moral law brings Glory to God and good to all the universe . i am rambling and i apologize , hope this helps , Clint

very well stated brother !! All hail the power of Jesus name !! Clint.

getting to the heart of truth is never wasteful , and you are relishing in the fact that you are soooooo smart is not becoming of Christ ... Clint .

Really this whole debate is a big waste of time.

Amen.

All YOU need to worry about is whether or not YOU are walking in a right relationship with God.

And this is a big enough job...

Oh, BTW, I also believe Ezekiel 18:24 is still applicable today!:-D

ginnyrose

Really this whole debate is a big waste of time. What does it matter if a Christian can or can not lose their salvation?

I personally believe it has serious ramifications especially for those inclined to maintaining their salvation by works along with countless others who have been under erroneous theological bondage. I have learned a lot from several of the debates here on SI. As I remember, you were in more than one. :-)

Things like this have been debated for 2,000 years and it's arrogant and foolish for anyone to entertain the idea that perhaps the debate will be settled here on this forum.

To believe it will be settled here on SI...yes, foolish indeed. But good has come from them too.

Hi bro & sis,

Those who are predistined according to the forknowledge of God i dont believe they will lose salvation otherwise they whould never have been predistened for eternal life.My question is who are really predestenated for eternal life? The bible says without holiness no man shall see the Lord.It is clear that without indwelling Holy Spirit to sanctify us and the blood of Jesus to cleanse us from sin we are doomed to condamnation.

The bible nowhere talks of easy belief, faith is a journey with lots of perils and dangers along the way to heaven. We are warned to stay vigilant and spiritually awake. The way of salvation is the way of holiness and only the redeemed of the Lord tread on it. Faith wihtout works is dead, a tree without fruit is worthless, an emty cloud without rain is useless for the soil.Its easy to get caught in a theological conversation and defend our views and voice our convictions but difficult to add to faith virtues that will make our election sure. All is by grace, the source of our goodness is God, salvation is not earned but obtained by faith, its a free gift of God. It was finished on the cross for us, we know that.
The danger is that if we who are born again dont obey the moral law of God or the law of the Spirit we become antinomian, if we emphasize good works but neglecting the grace of God we become legalistic.

My theology is simple, "Jesus in me the hope of glory", Jesus indwelling in me is my rightousness, justification, sanctification.Out of Him we are like dry branches, good for nothing, not matter how orthodox is our theology if we are not doing His will we will be on the judgment day on the wrong side with the goats, if Jesus is our Shepherd we will hear his voice and follow Him and if we follow his we will obey Him and grow in grace and knowledge of our Lord.

There is know simple formula of being a christian or being like Christ, most of us are carnal, few spiritual and many spiritualy dead. Assurance of salvation comes from the Holy Spirit witness and the word of God, only those who love God and their bro & sis with a clean heart can say with confidence that their destination is heaven and their election is sure.

God bless,

Redi

i just read this is 2nd timothy i hope it helps maybe this discussion.

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,ch.1

12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.ch.1

4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.
ch. 2

[i]Is it possible for a Christian to lose his salvation because of sins he commits?

by RC Sproul

The question of losing one’s salvation is one that is a matter of great controversy within the household of Christian faith. There are many Christians who live in mortal fear every day of losing what they have found in Christ because the Bible gives serious warnings about falling away, and Paul himself says that he has to be very careful lest he himself become a castaway. There are biblical warnings about what would happen if we turn our backs on Christ after we’ve come to a knowledge of him.

On the other hand, there are also many Christians who believe that we will, in fact, never fall away, and I’m numbered among that group. I’m persuaded from a study of Scripture that we can have an assurance of our salvation not only for today but for all time. But the assurance that we have, or confidence in our future estate in salvation, must be based upon the right foundations. In other words, if my confidence that I will persevere is based on my confidence that I will not sin, it’s on very shaky ground. One thing the Bible makes clear to me is that even though I am a redeemed person, I will in all likelihood, and inevitably, continue to sin to some degree. If it were up to my strength to persevere to guarantee my future salvation, then I would have very little hope of persevering.

But I’m convinced that the Bible teaches that what God begins in our life, he finishes. Paul teaches, for example, in Philippians, “He who has begun a good work in you will perfect it to the end.” My confidence rests in the fact that Jesus promises to intercede for me daily as my Great High Priest. My confidence for my future salvation rests in my confidence that God will keep his promise and that Christ will intercede for me and preserve me. Again, if it were left to me, I would obviously fall away. I like to look at it this way: I’m walking the Christian life with my hand in God’s hand. If my perseverance depended upon my holding tightly to God’s hand, I would surely fall away because at some point I would let go. But I believe that the Scriptures teach us that God is holding my hand, and because he is holding my hand, I don’t have to fear that I will fall ultimately and finally.

Now that doesn’t mean that Christians don’t involve themselves in serious sins and what we would call in theology “serious and radical fall,” but the issue we’re discussing here is whether a Christian will ever fall totally and finally. In the New Testament John tells us, for example, that “those who went out from us were never really with us,” and that “Christ does not lose those whom the Father has given to him.” So my confidence again rests in the intercession of Christ and God’s ability and promise to hold on to me. In and of myself I am capable of sinning even unto the loss of my salvation, but I’m persuaded that God in his grace will keep me from that.

[/i]

Re: CAN BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS LOOSE SALVATION and END UP IN HELL?

Only if one believes that he has birthed himself into the Kingdom of God, and makes himself a pure and chaste virgin Bride for her Husband.

My earthly father did not confer with me when I was conceived. My heavenly Father conceived me in His wisdom and in Christ before the foundation of the world. His choice and Grace and Wisdom. He did not ask me or want my permission to birth His Son in me. Thus, "Born Again" by Spirit and Water, The Water of Life and the Spirit of Christ has by the Father's Seed birthed me again in the Spirit or else I am none of His. There are none that are His that depend on their own works to abort themselves or else rebirth themselves. God does not abort any of His birthed sons'.

Galatians 1:3-5 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father: To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Ephesians 1:3-9 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Ro 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Ro 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Ga 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Php 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

1Jo 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

I choose it, I loose it; Yes.

God chooses and none are lost.

Re: CAN BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS LOOSE SALVATION and END UP IN HELL?

"Loose Salvation"? NO!!!

Sin and be disciplined? Yes!!! Praise God.

Ps 118:18 The LORD hath chastened me sore: but he hath not given me over unto death.

1Co 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

2Co 6:9 As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed;

Heb 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but He for our profit, that we might be partakers of His Holiness.

In Christ: Chastened but never lost: Phillip

Who, Then, is a Christian?
By Warren Litzman

Defining Christianity is not an easy task these days. It has become so polluted with false doctrine and anti-biblical truth that anybody with anything on their mind religious uses the name. What is most critical about this is the world and even people in Christian churches do not know what Christianity is. To make it very simple, my definition is that Christianity is Christ. Nothing else - nothing else added to it and nothing else needed - just Christ. However, Christians without the knowledge that Christ is their life have become promoters and advertisers of their special brand of Christianity, or their denominational rules or their doctrines.

This means there is hardly to be found anywhere a pure or even near pure Scriptural Christianity. The term “Christian” was formed at Antioch by Paul and Barnabas when they were teaching there (Acts 11:26). There are many that teach the early Pentecostal church was a truly Christian church. But this is not so. The early church was a kingdom church (Joel 2:28, Acts 2:16) that had never heard the full gospel of grace and had never come into Paul’s gospel of Christ in you. It is my conclusion that no one can be Biblical Christians without a revelation of Christ as his life (Gal. 2:20).

1) Christianity is not just about the historical Christ. The historical record in the four gospels tell you all about Him and there are thousands of historical books that tell about Him. It is only when you get into Paul’s Epistles that He - Christ - ever becomes the life of the believer. A Christian is one in whom Christ lives. It is not that Christ gives something to the believer, but rather Christ is the life of the believer and His only life to the Father that birthed him.

2) Christianity is 4th dimensional. It is a mystery (Col. 1:26-27). It is the birthing of a new creation - a person that has never lived before - a person that will never die - because he has eternal life - Christ-life - in him.

3) Christianity demands nothing from an adherent other than to believe on Jesus Christ as his Savior. The denomination, the church doctrines and the religious programs can add nothing to salvation. Therefore, to put it bluntly, Baptist are not Christians. Methodist are not Christians. Pentecostals are not Christians. Catholics are not Christians. But because of the personal work of the Holy Spirit in a believer’s life, some Christians are Baptist, some Christians are Methodist, some Christians are Pentecostal and some Christians are Catholic. When Christianity becomes a tool of some group to promote their doctrine and ignore Paul’s message of grace then they are not Christians.

4) Christianity demands that a believer be willing to give up his old life (Rom. 6:6) and cease to serve sin. This is the message and essence of the cross and Christianity without the cross is life-less and Christ-less (II Cor. 2:2). Christianity is not our works for the Lord but rather His work in us and through us.

Christ-life Fellowship
PO Box 170307 Dallas, TX 75217-0307 USA

litzman@christ-life.org
Webservant

In Christ, alive unto God by The Son in me.

Phillip

1 Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

It is not by philosophy; not from ourselves; but by his mercy. The apostle keeps it prominently in view, that it was not of our philosophy, wealth, or rank, or works, that they had been raised to these privileges, but of God as the author.
Are ye. Ye are what you are by the mercy of God, 1Co 15:10. You owe your hopes to him. The emphasis in this verse is to be placed on this expression, "are ye." You are Christians, not by the agency of man, but by the agency of God.

1 Corinthians 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

It is a mystery that God has revealed His Son in us and that is our only holiness before the Father, this is our perfection, Christ in you. Nothing else.

Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

In Christ: I stand perfect before the Father:

Phillip

Jesus told us the reason we develop false doctrine?

In Mark 12:24 it reads:

And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?

Here Jesus tells the Sadducees (who were famous for their false doctrine about the resurrection) what has led them to their wrong interpretation of Scripture:

1.) They don't know the Scriptures.
a. Too often we don't spend time submitted to the Spirit of God and the authority of our Savior to have Him expound the Scriptures for us. Instead we seek them to win arguments, and prove our points, and to justify our sinful lives. Very similar we see this spirit in religious men who persecuted God's prophets, Christ and today's Church.

2.) They don't know the power of God.
a. Like Abraham we are called to believe that the things God says of Himself and His Kingdom to be true. He doesn't ask us what we think or for our counsel. He just tells us to believe. Those that believe what the Lord says of Himself will see the power of God manifest itself on Earth, begining and ending with the miraculous power of Salvation.

These are two simple principles that cultivate sound doctrine.

God Bless,

Desi, Jr.

I choose it, I loose it; Yes.

God chooses and none are lost.

Re: CAN BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS LOOSE SALVATION and END UP IN HELL?

"Loose Salvation"? NO!!!

Sin and be disciplined? Yes!!! Praise God.

Great quote from "Christinyou"

We as humans can't comprehend NOT being sent to hell for doing bad things. Thank God I was not saved by a human, but by the very God of Creation and Glory.
My own son can disobey me, leave home, live a life completely different than what I taught him, but it never takes away the fact that he is my son. He can even have his name changed after being born, but he is still my Blood son. Now he would miss out on all the things that I bless his sister with, but never the less, he is still my son. And if he were of age, you can believe I would chastise him. God knew we were going to sin when He saved us, yet He sent His Own Son in spite of it. And chastisement comes when we disobey Him. Upon my death, my daughter would receive more rewards from inheritance, but legally, my wayward son would also be eligible to a portion too.
Yes we must fear God, for it is an awful thing to fall into the hands of an angry God (chastisement). But Fear of Hell, Cannot be our motive for service, it has to be Love, and appreciation for the Eternal Life He gave us.
I would find it hard to go thru this life trying to serve a God who would throw me into a hell prepared for the devil and his angels if I, in my humanity, were to fail at keeping a law I could never keep to begin with.

int3grity wrote:

CAN BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS LOOSE SALVATION and END UP IN HELL?

We hold that all true Christians persevere in the faith to the end. IF one does not persevere, then it simply means he never had the faith in the first place.

John 6:37-38,
[b]"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me."[/b]

So, everyone who is given to the Son by the Father to be saved "SHALL COME" and of them the Son will "in no wise cast out." PERIOD. What about "jumping out of His hand" as so many assert a Christian can do? Read the next verse:

and the very next verse (39),

[b]"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."[/b]

Here we see that of [b]ALL[/b]which are given to the Son, the Son will "lose nothing" [i]AND[/i] "and I will raise him up at the last day." Notice the definite, [b]"I WILL"[/b] "...raise him up at the last day." This is distinctly Johannine writing style and speaks clearly of eternal life. This is undeniably clear, as in the very next verse (40),

[b]And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.[/b]

"EVERLASTING LIFE". Clear?

In the very next verses the Jews murmur about these things... (verses 41-43)

"The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves."

Now, Jesus continues teaching... (Verses 43-46)

[b]"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me."[/b]

Here we see that "NO MAN [b]CAN[/b] COME TO ME". Can is a word of ability. Notice how Jesus did not say "May", but "CAN". This means that nobody is able to come to Jesus. Why? (Because we (before regeneration, "...were dead in trespasses and sins;" Ephesians 2:1 ) But praise God there is an exception. Jesus then says, "except the Father which hath sent me draw him". So, if we are drawn by the Father, we can come to Jesus. And then Jesus says, "and I will raise him up at the last day." SO, all who are drawn, therefore, are raised up at the last day to eternal life. And Jesus says it again another way, "It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me." [i]CRYSTAL CLEAR.[/i]

[u]In reverse summary, 1. All whom the Father draws are raised up to eternal life at the last day. 2. No one can come to Jesus without being drawn by the Father. 3. Being raised up at the last day clearly speaks of eternal life. 4. All whom the Father gives to Jesus are raised up at the last day to eternal life and Jesus will "lose nothing" so one can neither be snatched (or jump!) out of his hand. 5. Everyone given by the Father to Jesus "SHALL COME" to Jesus. 6. Jesus promises "I will in no wise cast out." to those who come to Him.[/u]

Finally, please read the last words of the chapter as a final confirmation of these truths,

"But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66\tFrom that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve."

God bless you.
Adam Schaefers

'Tis a point I long to know,
Oft it causes anxious thought;
Do I love the Lord or no?
Am I His--or am I not?

If I love--why am I thus?
Why this dull and lifeless frame
?Hardly, sure, can they be worse,
Who have never heard His name!

Could my heart so hard remain,
Prayer a task and burden prove,
Every trifle give me pain,
If I knew a Savior's love?

When I turn my eyes within,
All is dark, and vain, and wild;
Filled with unbelief and sin,
Can I deem myself a child?

If I pray, or hear, or read,
Sin is mixed with all I do!
You who love the Lord indeed,
Tell me--Is it thus with you?

Yet I mourn my stubborn will,
Find my sin a grief and thrall;
Should I grieve for what I feel,
If I did not love at all?

Could I joy His saints to meet,
Choose the ways I once abhorred,
Find, at times, the promise sweet,
If I did not love the Lord?

Lord, decide the doubtful case!
You who are Your people's sun,
Shine upon Your work of grace,
If it is indeed begun.

Let me love You more and more,
If I love at all, I pray;
If I have not loved before,
Help me to begin today!

[b][u]The Westminster Confession of Faith: Chapter 17
Chapter 17. Of the Perseverance of the Saints.[/u]

1. They whom God hath accepted in his Beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace; but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.a

a. John 10:28-29; Phil 1:6; 1 Pet 1:5, 9; 2 Pet 1:10; 1 John 3:9.

2. This perseverance of the saints depends, not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father;a upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ;b the abiding of the Spirit and of the seed of God within them;c and the nature of the covenant of grace:d from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof.e

a. Jer 31:3; 2 Tim 2:18-19. • b. Luke 22:32; John 17:11, 24; Heb 7:25; 9:12-15; 10:10, 14; 13:20-21; Rom 8:33-39. • c. John 14:16-17; 1 John 2:27; 3:9. • d. Jer 32:40. • e. John 10:28; 2 Thes 3:3; 1 John 2:19.

3. Nevertheless they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins;a and for a time continue therein:b whereby they incur God's displeasure,c and grieve his Holy Spirit;d come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts;e have their hearts hardened,f and their consciences wounded;g hurt and scandalize others,h and bring temporal judgments upon themselves.i

a. Mat 26:70, 72, 74. • b. Psa 51 title with v. 14. • c. 2 Sam 11:27; Isa 64:5, 7, 9. • d. Eph 4:30. • e. Psa 51:8, 10, 12; Song 5:2-4, 6; Rev 2:4. • f. Isa 63:17; Mark 6:52; 16:14. • g. Psa 32:3-4; 51:8. • h. 2 Sam 12:14. • i. Psa 89:31-32; 1 Cor 11:32.[/b]

amen ! phillip , great post . It is by grace , but does grace enable us or does it show us where we can do all Things THROUGH CHRIST , God saves us by His Grace and this Grace shows us al the I CAN DO's that are in Christ, by faith [ commitment ] to Him . We are responsible to obey the great law for ourselves , if this were not the case salvation , through , the atonement of Christ , would not be by Grace . thanks for you posts phillip , Clint .

do you know what being " IN CHRIST ' is ? Do you know what having the , " MIND OF CHRIST " is ? when we have the same mind as Christ , we see that WE CAN OBEY ALL THE LAW OF GOD . this obedience comes from a new heart which a new heart is a ,new motive , or fountain , or a new vine [ a place of nourishment ] that we are in . This new and living way , that, we as Christians partake of shows HOW WE CAN DO ALL THINGS THROUGH CHRIST . Through Christ , does not mean He obeyed for us , it means THROUGH HIM < WE CAN OBEY ALL THE LAW OF GOD > THIS IS GRACE < and this GRACE , is all our sufficiency . Clint

BE YE is a command . when God says to us , BE YE , Holy as I am Holy , and Be Ye , perfect as I am perfect . it means just that . Jesus is the author and PERFECTER of our commitment [ faith ] Jesus came to show us HOW TO BE PERFECTLY OBEDIENT TO THE LAW OF LOVE , in other words to ALL THE LAW OF GOD . By Grace , through faith [ commitment ] to Jesus this happens . Perfection is a promise and a commandment from God . And this is attainable in this life , Through being in Christ , and seeing that He is true and faithful to His promises fulfillment . Clint .

Thank you Clint for the conformation that the Christ in me is the Christ in you and my fellow brethern. It is all of Christ and none of me, unless it is me as Him coming forth, "He must increase and I must decrease". The more I decrease the more I have the desire of my heart, that being loving My Father as He needs to be loved which I cannot do of my own, but by the Christ in me who is the Lover, I can love Him and all that The Father has given me in the Fulness of the God Head, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and can love one another as He has loved me and gave Himself for me, ""US"".

In The Love of Christ coming forth from me as Him, who loved me first: Phillip

ccrider , you have just written here, one of the most excellent posts ! this is all truth and easy to understand . I do agree whole heartedly ! that In Christ there is absolutely no toiling or spinning . In Him , there is only rest for our souls and a New and Living Way, for us to walk in all the day long . Knowing the work of the cross and carrying it daily , is all that is needed for this new and living way ,that is opened to us as we abide in Christ , to be made known and revealed to a lost and dying world . Exalting Jesus should be all there is , and all that is done by us Christians , this always happens through faith [ commitment] too ,and in Him . God bless you ! Clint.

How can one loose so great a salvation? If we by the Word look at the Cross and Christ with a bloody crown of thorns, His face covered with blood and spit, His back in shreds, a gapeing hole in His side, a dead head on dead shoulders, and all His precious perfect sinless blood, running down the Cross and in pools on the ground, how can we say that the effecacy of that blood looses its power by what the sinner does? Those that are Christs are His to keep and He will loose none, He proclaims this. His Father will give none to Him that are not kept by the Power of His Blood and His obedience to the Father, even unto death on the Cross.

Those that are in Christ and Christ in them are kept by this power that the Father has put in that shed blood and His perfect sinless life given for those that are now His. None will be lost that are Given Him by the Father, no one can take them out of His hands.

No, a thousand times No, the Salvation of God cannot be lost by the sinner saved by Grace through Faith. That would make the sinner stronger than God and the Cross of Christ of no avail.

In Christ: Phillip

Christinyou wrote:
How can one loose so great a salvation? If we by the Word look at the Cross and Christ with a bloody crown of thorns, His face covered with blood and spit, His back in shreds, a gapeing hole in His side, a dead head on dead shoulders, and all His precious perfect sinless blood, running down the Cross and in pools on the ground, how can we say that the effecacy of that blood looses its power by what the sinner does? Those that are Christs are His to keep and He will loose none, He proclaims this. His Father will give none to Him that are not kept by the Power of His Blood and His obedience to the Father, even unto death on the Cross.

Those that are in Christ and Christ in them are kept by this power that the Father has put in that shed blood and His perfect sinless life given for those that are now His. None will be lost that are Given Him by the Father, no one can take them out of His hands.

No, a thousand times No, the Salvation of God cannot be lost by the sinner saved by Grace through Faith. That would make the sinner stronger than God and the Cross of Christ of no avail.

In Christ: Phillip

If it is not possible to lose your salvation then why are there so many warnings in the New Testament given both to the disciples and to the church? I hope no newborn Christians are reading this long drawn out debate. YES you can if you do not follow HIM. There were 12 disciples. 11 yielded to HIM and followed Him all the way. One strayed, and yielded to the wrong spirit-and perished. We're warned to take heed not to be deceived. Take heed those who think they stand lest they fall. Walk worthy of your vocation. Pray you are counted worthy to stand before Him on that day. Take heed lest you are overcome by surfeiting and the excesses and cares of this life. (Luk 21:34) Over indulgence will slow you down and you won't be sober, alert, and on guard. Watch and pray, He said. We are warned against the works of the flesh and if we are walking in the self, refusing to let HIM be Lord, we will not be ready to go when He comes. No sin gets in where He is. He is coming after a bride who is purified. The only perfection we have is HIM. Our self life must decrease so His supernatural life in us can increase. The more of Him we have the more holiness and perfection we have. We must be filled with the Holy Ghost-and that is not an option but a command. (Eph 5:18) No man can truly say Jesus is Lord but by the power of the Holy Ghost. It takes power from on High to live this life of Christ in us and through us.

God's people should not be debating His Word! It's not ours to prove or back up but to read and know and live by HIS Spirit. Anyone can understand the Word of God and its application to their lives if they get alone with God and offer Him a hungry heart. And if you will read the last few verses of Romans 1, you see debate is included as wickedness
because it leads to quarreling, contention and striving over what He said-which just leads to more of the same. Jesus taught the Word, He did not involve Himself in unfruitful debates, and when they tried to draw Him into one, He confounded their religious wisdom, and left them speechless with a few words. NO sin and no taking this great salvation forgranted and hearing it spoken of as lightly and matter of factly as it has been here will be tolerated. This is a precious gift, and the price was unspeakably high. You need only to look at the cross, at the suffering He bore to see how God hates sin.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Do you not know every time the Spirit of God deals with us about something in our lives, and we choose to spare self rather than deny self we take self off that cross and that life of Christ we were given when we were born again is once again crucified in us? Make no mistake there is a cross in the life of every believer. So who is on ours? Self or Christ? Only knowing Him (which will cost us) will lead to loving Him enough to reject ourselves and embrace Him. This is the work of the Holy Spirit in us. It's a progressive, daily work. It doesn't happen all at once. But He knows those who are truly His and those who are too proud to examine themselves and see if they got it wrong. He suffered greatly for this salvation we received. To take it so lightly, to spend endless hours debating whether we can sin and get by with it and stay saved reveals a heart in need of divine help. I normally avoid the discussion forums because for the most part it's a debating society-which we are not to be. But I pray God help us all learn and walk in His truth. If you would love your soul enough to take time to check this link, it's a short read and will clarify quite a few things. Beloved, just ask yourself this: are you giving the One you call Lord as much of your time as you spend on here debating what He said? Are you a hearer or a doer? Only the doers will justified.

[url=http://www.schoolofchristinternational.com/predesk/agentofgod.html]Debating Society or Agent of God? [/url]

Kathleen,

I was reading a man's quote, Billy7, this morning, [i]"Once you’re saved, you’re always saved as long as you’re saved"[/i] by Winkie Pratney. I thought, "Now, I agree with that kind of eternal salvation!!"

I was reminded of that when you wrote: [i]YES you can if you do not follow HIM. There were 12 disciples. 11 yielded to HIM and followed Him all the way. One strayed, and yielded to the wrong spirit-and perished. We're warned to take heed not to be deceived.[/i]

And thank you for this: [i]God's people should not be debating His Word! It's not ours to prove or back up but to read and know and live by HIS Spirit. [/i]

God bless you

There is only one reason that Judas was lost.
By the power of God to fulfill the scripture, just like all who are lost.

God does not loose any He chooses for salvation, this to make the Cross of Christ all He intended it to be. By His works we stand or fall, not by our own works, standing and falling in Christ does not mean those that stand or fall are kicked out of the Family, Standing or falling is God's works in the believer for His Grace is sufficent in all circumstances and situations. Falling will be right and in Gods perfect will for the child that is in His arms when He is falling.

Acts 1:16-20 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus. For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out. And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood. For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

The fulfillment of Psalms and the reason for Judas.

John 17:12-26 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

That we might be in Him that lovedst us and we be in Him and in God the Father, with the Holy Spirit Comforter teaching us all that the scripture says about Jesus Christ and what He says.

Jesus Christ has defeated satan on the Cross, and none can be like Judas, only thorns in the Flesh and by the Grace of God, to keep us from being puffed up as Paul, for satan has nothing to do with the Christ in us. Our eternal salvation is sure and none will be lost, this by God's choosing and Christ's Keeping.

In Christ forever: Phillip

kathleen1 wrote:
[b]If it is not possible to lose your salvation then why are there so many warnings in the New Testament given both to the disciples and to the church?[/b]

To put it quite simply, in one sense, it is like there is a church within the church. Just like how not everyone under the old covenant was saved, so also not everyone under the new covenant is saved. The scriptures speak of a remnant people. Ie, [i]"For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:"[/i] Rom. 9:6 AND [i]"5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace."[/i] Rom. 11:5 The warnings in scriptures are for those who think they are saved, but in fact are not truly born again. These people in the church must [i]"5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?"[/i] 2 Cor. 13:5

Should the Christians doubt their salvation, has not the Lord given us 100% assurance that we will be saved. How much do we have to labor, achieve, or sacrifice before we can be assured of our salvation. How many years of faithfulness before we can be deaclared as 100% save. How much work, how many resolutions do we have to do to seal our eternal destiny? Can we assure ourselves that we will be always faithful to our Lord, just how many years is needed before we commit our next sin.

The sad thing is, it may not take long before we stumble again, even years of being saintly will not assure us that no fault will be found in us. We are but a hopeless case on our own:

Mat 19:25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

How tragic it will be that after many years of following the Lord, we will suddenly found ourlselves to be an outcast. Can we not tell with confidence that we will not lost our salvation in the future_ that it is not a vain thing to obey the gospel at this very moment, that it is not afterall a mere gamble or simply a play of chance...(to be continued)

yoadam wrote:
Just like how not everyone under the old covenant was saved

The only two that I know of for sure from Scripture is Enoch and Elijah (oh & poor Lazarus- Abraham's bosom).

Besides these, are there any others that lived a victorious life (without Christ & Holy Spirit), proven through the Scriptures?

[i]Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.[/i]
Galatians 3.21

I'm not trying to argue with you, I'd really like to know!

God bless you!

Lysa wrote:

yoadam wrote:
Just like how not everyone under the old covenant was saved

Now, I'm not arguing but correct me if I'm wrong but no one under the old covenant was saved, were they?

The only two that I know of for sure from Scripture is Enoch and Elijah (oh & poor Lazarus- Abraham's bosom).

Besides these, are there any others that lived a victorious life (without Christ & Holy Spirit), proven through the Scriptures?

[i]Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.[/i]
Galatians 3.21

I'm not trying to argue with you, I'd really like to know!

God bless you!

in OT we have all of israel as a picture of Gods "saved" people, they where saved out of egypt, God worked miracles he lead the day and night, he dwellet among them, he fed them daily etc. God elected them, he chose them, he gave them commands and the law to follow. Paul gives us this example and warns us to be like them who ended up dead in the desert and never reaching the promise land, other people worth studying that i consider had a victorious life was Job, God gave the testimony that he was righteous.

we should be glad we have a better covenant then israel did, but we can also just as they did neglect a so great salvation.

1Co 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
1Co 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1Co 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
1Co 10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
1Co 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
1Co 10:7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
1Co 10:8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
1Co 10:9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
1Co 10:10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

they drank spiritually from Christ.... yet they never entered into the promise land. How can you drink from Christ the living water and not be saved? this is written for our admonition and example. Let us make our election and calling sure, israel did not, let us hold fast in faith, israel did not, let us press on towards perfection, israel did not. Let us not be like them, we have a better covenant by Gods goodness and grace.

passerby wrote:
Should the Christians doubt their salvation...

I am not talking about sins that I don't know that I committed! God is not like that, He doesn't punish us for being a new Christian and not knowing something.

Ahhh, but if we know!! [i]If you or I [b]KNOW[/b] to do good and we don't do it, it's a sin[/i] (James 4.17). And if we do not repent of it, it is not forgiven. Do you agree with that? That unrepented sin is not forgiven? {NEW Christians: I am NOT talking about a stumbling here and losing your salvation, do not fear!} So if unrepented sin is not forgiven, then how can sin enter into His kingdom?

If you are saying that it does enter His kingdom, please explain this to me. (I am NOT trying to be argumentative, I really would like to know how someone Scripturally explains this.)

In case one might lean on "all of our past, present and future sins are forgiven..." I ask, where in the Scripture does it say that [b]future sins[/b] are forgiven?

I do not know what one has to do to lose their salvation (if in fact they do), maybe they are considered carnal Christians and punished accordingly (that could include me at times). I am truly interested.

Thank you for considering this...

hmmhmm wrote:
they drank spiritually from Christ.... yet they never entered into the promise land. How can you drink from Christ the living water and not be saved? this is written for our admonition and example. Let us make our election and calling sure, israel did not, let us hold fast in faith, israel did not, let us press on towards perfection, israel did not. Let us not be like them, we have a better covenant by Gods goodness and grace.

Thank you brother!

Lysa wrote:
kathleen1 wrote:
[b]If it is not possible to lose your salvation then why are there so many warnings in the New Testament given both to the disciples and to the church?[/b]

yoadam wrote:
Hi.

To put it quite simply, in one sense, it is like there is a church within the church. Just like how not everyone under the old covenant was saved, so also not everyone under the new covenant is saved. The scriptures speak of a remnant people. Ie, [i]"For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:"[/i] Rom. 9:6 AND [i]"5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace."[/i] Rom. 11:5 The warnings in scriptures are for those who think they are saved, but in fact are not truly born again. These people in the church must [i]"5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?"[/i] 2 Cor. 13:5

Now, I'm not arguing but correct me if I'm wrong but no one under the old covenant was saved, were they?

The only two that I know of for sure from Scripture is Enoch and Elijah (oh & poor Lazarus- Abraham's bosom).

Besides these, are there any others that lived a victorious life (without Christ & Holy Spirit), proven through the Scriptures?

[i]Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.[/i]
Galatians 3.21

I'm not trying to argue with you, I'd really like to know!

God bless you!

Briefly--
The people of God have always been saved by grace.

All one needs to do is examine the sacrificial system of the old testament. Even BEFORE moses, the people of God were burning animal sacrifices to the LORD.

Look at Adam & Eve, after they sinned, they made their own clothes out of plant leaves. Just like the natural man, who after he sins, tries to do good works to cover up his sin and shame. Yet this is not good enough, as the people of God must have a perfect righteousness to stand before a holy God. And so the LORD killed the first animals and gave Adam & Eve clothes of animal skins, which is an amazing picture of their salvation, and justification before God via the righteousness of Christ, not on the basis of their own works, but on the basis of God's grace and a promise of the Messiah who would one day come to redeem the people of God.

As mentioned, there were other people in the old testament who were saved before the time of moses, like Enoch, etc...

Also Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob & the nation of Israel. Of course, as I said earlier, not all of Israel was saved. But of course, God has always had a remnant people who were saved. At the time of Moses, animal sacrifices were officially codified by the law, but the people of God did sacrifice animals before this time as well... Is this not an amazing picture of people being saved by Jesus' blood? If we can believe in Jesus and be saved by His blood, which was shed 2,000 years ago in the past; then what was holding back people from believing in Jesus and being saved by His blood which would be thousands of years later in the future?

Adam :-)

MrBillPro wrote:
O sluefoot must be grinning from ear to ear reading this thread. :-(

He has to be rolling on the floor by now. :-)

Can a "Born Again Christian" lose their salvation and end up in Hell?

Nope!!

This thread is running out of steam fast. The postings have become flippant and insincere and references to the devil in a jocular light are now beginning to surface. Brothers and sisters, we must never make light of Satan and hell. We must never joke about these things under any circumstances.

PaulWest wrote:
This thread is running out of steam fast. The postings have become flippant and insincere and references to the devil in a jocular light are now beginning to surface. Brothers and sisters, we must never make light of Satan and hell. We must never joke about these things under any circumstances.

Paul, if this was your response to my post which there has only been one other one since mine, I gather it was, I was no way trying to make light of anything. I have heard "MANY" Pastors say the same thing about the body feuding how satan is rejoicing,the idea behind my post was more to the thoughts of what Natan4Jesus wrote below in an earlier post, not at all being flippant and insincere, quite the contrary. We as Christians sometimes don't like the big picture, we sometimes enjoy tunnel vision. My post was to have folks look at the big picture, and sure not to give satan any joy or credit or anything period.

Natan4Jesus wrote:
he's absolutely gleeful, 'divert them and divide them', thats his food, his weapon, if one truly dies to self and becomes alive in Christ, such musings and meanderings of the mind are exposed to be the luxury of the 'man with one talent'.

How strong is the word, "never"?

Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Do we really believe this?

Or are we just here to believe in the Law and keep His commandments? Even if we could, should, will or does keep the Law perfect, the great revelation that Jesus Christ is the total fulfillment and perfect representative of all the Law, He still learned obedience by the things He suffered. Does God want obedience or does God want Love? Christ is the epitome of Love. So to keep the Law is what Paul said he did, without waver. So why did Paul say all his works were as dung in the rubbish pile. We are always learning and never coming to the knowledge of the truth.
Man cannot save himself no matter what he does, it still take God to allow even Enoch in to His Kingdom, and God still has to take him.

2 Timothy 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Again; Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Those that believe they can loose their salvation don't believe this.

Hebrews 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

Are we not a kingdom of priests? Nothing we do can ever take away our sins or sin in its entirety. Only Christ and His sacrifice and His Blood can take away our sin and the sin of the world.

In Christ, which we that are His are most certainly born again of Incorruptable Seed of the Father, Which is "Christ in you the hope of Glory".

We cannot loose this by what we do, we can only believe that God's Word is true and when He says, "Never", that is what He means. "Believest thou this".

Heb 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

We are called and we are elected and it is sure in Christ Jesus our Life and our God and Savior.

Again; Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Find all the scripture you want to invalidate these words, but they still stand and There is a difference in those that are not in Christ, but work oh so hard to keep the Law so they can be saved and righteous before God by who they are, but have no calling or election, that clearly proveing who He is and His work in us. This is the only thing we can pray for, to those that are not saved, that they might be called and elected and their life might be overwhelmed and given new life, that life being In Christ, the only life that will enter the kingdom of God in Christ Jesus be in them, where He is preparing a place of us.

Elected and sure of His Calling by the Christ that is in me and by the Comfort of the Holy Spirit revealing this truth and the Comfort of the Christ life that is in me reveling Himself as He promised, "I will come again and draw you unto Myself".

Never to be comfortless again: Phillip

Christinyou wrote:
How strong is the word, "never"?

Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Do we really believe this?

Or are we just here to believe in the Law and keep His commandments? Even if we could, should, will or does keep the Law perfect, the great revelation that Jesus Christ is the total fulfillment and perfect representative of all the Law, He still learned obedience by the things He suffered. Does God want obedience or does God want Love? Christ is the epitome of Love. So to keep the Law is what Paul said he did, without waver. So why did Paul say all his works were as dung in the rubbish pile. We are always learning and never coming to the knowledge of the truth.
Man cannot save himself no matter what he does, it still take God to allow even Enoch in to His Kingdom, and God still has to take him.

2 Timothy 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Again; Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Those that believe they can loose their salvation don't believe this.

Hebrews 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

Are we not a kingdom of priests? Nothing we do can ever take away our sins or sin in its entirety. Only Christ and His sacrifice and His Blood can take away our sin and the sin of the world.

In Christ, which we that are His are most certainly born again of Incorruptable Seed of the Father, Which is "Christ in you the hope of Glory".

We cannot loose this by what we do, we can only believe that God's Word is true and when He says, "Never", that is what He means. "Believest thou this".

Heb 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

We are called and we are elected and it is sure in Christ Jesus our Life and our God and Savior.

Again; Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Find all the scripture you want to invalidate these words, but they still stand and There is a difference in those that are not in Christ, but work oh so hard to keep the Law so they can be saved and righteous before God by who they are, but have no calling or election, that clearly proveing who He is and His work in us. This is the only thing we can pray for, to those that are not saved, that they might be called and elected and their life might be overwhelmed and given new life, that life being In Christ, the only life that will enter the kingdom of God in Christ Jesus be in them, where He is preparing a place of us.

Elected and sure of His Calling by the Christ that is in me and by the Comfort of the Holy Spirit revealing this truth and the Comfort of the Christ life that is in me reveling Himself as He promised, "I will come again and draw you unto Myself".

Never to be comfortless again: Phillip

Christinyou,

[b]I completely agree with your basic premise 100%.[/b]

However, there is a problem, because one verse which you quoted in your defense,

[b]7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.[/b]

Here is the context:

5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,

As you see, this is [i]not a good thing[/i] and is most likely speaking of apostates, so-called "believers."

So, perhaps a better verse in your defense may be from Ephesians 3:8, where Paul speaks of himself and says, "8\tUnto me, who am less than the least of all saints,"

What a statement!

Follow that up with Philippians 3:12,
"12\tNot as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus."

Let us never be content with any level of attainment in holiness. Let us always be crying out like John the Baptist [b]"30 He must increase, but I must decrease."[/b]

This is a sure way to never fall into self righteousness!

And let's look to Jesus.

"2\t[b]Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God."[/b]

How shall we escape if we neglect so great salvation ? hebrews asks this ? escape what ? what is the writter of hebrews saying we will most assuredly not escape if we " neglect so great a salvation ? the only way to make the Cross of Christ effectual is by faith and faith must be worked out with fear and trembling or it can be lost . why must you osas adherents neglect ,the absolute truth that salvation can be lost? . it is hard to loose ,but it can be . one way it can be lost is found in hebrews ch.5

Amen ! HE WHO ENDURES TO THE END !!shall be saved . God can , and does remove the earnest of our inheritance from some of us . exspecially when we sell it like esau did . the earnest , of our inheritance is the Holy Spirit .

A. T. Robertson's Word Pictures
2 Timothy 3:7
Never able to come to the knowledge of the truth (mêdepote eis epignôsin alêtheias elthein dunamena). Pathetic picture of these hypnotized women without intellectual power to cut through the fog of words and, though always learning scraps of things, they never come into the full knowledge (epignôsin) of the truth in Christ. And yet they even pride themselves on belonging to the intelligentsia! Amen. end;

Men also are under the same teachers and fall short as Paul is warning these that are in verse 7. I can never attain righteousness and so it is not up to me to loose righteousness. I can never attain salvation so it is not up to me to loose it. I can only attain righteousness by the Christ that is in me. Like Paul screams from his heart, "who will deliver from this body of death"?
Peter also, undyingly showing this body of flesh cannot attain to any righteousness, it is only by the Christ in us that we attain this righteousness, so no matter how hard I try, I cannot reach the Holiness of God in this body of flesh.

1 Peter 4:11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Not me. Not I. Not, not. If I cannot attain salvation by my own will or work or faith, how can I be set free?

Romans 7:20-25 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

My Flesh wars all the time with the Spirit that is in me, that is the Spirit of Christ revealed by the Holy Spirit Teacher Comforter. God has made me righteous in Christ, not by what I do or don't do.

1 Corinthians 1:28-31 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

I was a base thing of the world, I was despised and I was not. I cannot glory in any of what I was as Paul plainly states. All dung. But God in His Grace has made me wise, righteous, sanctified, and redeemed. That according as it is written, so I can glory only in Him who has set me free from this body of death. God will never let me die again for I am alive in Christ, "It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me". If I cannot attain it, I cannot loose it, for it is not up to me, but the Christ in me. That is why I try all the harder to be righteous, wise, sanctified and redeemed in Christ. The harder I try in Christ the more fruit will be attained, for it is His Fruit coming forth through me, "not by my works lest any man should boast", But How?

2Co 12:6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Col 2:4 And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.

If you can loose it then you must be able to attain it by your works lest works are nothing.

By His Life I live and I will live forever in His choosing and perfection not by any works, but by His works which He has already done on the Cross.

Galatians 2:18-21 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

By which I can loose my own salvation. But in Christ;

For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Paul's final Gospel, the fulfillment of The Word of God, clearly stated this mystery of Christ in each of us, that are birthed by the Incorruptable Seed of the Father.

Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I (Paul) am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; (final gospel)Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Who's working? Christ in you and me: Phillip

Quote:

"""Amen ! HE WHO ENDURES TO THE END !!shall be saved """

Wonderful scripture:

Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Why do they hate us?

John 15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.

Who is the only one that has endured to the end?
"It is finished".

He is the enduring One that is in me and by His life in me I will endure to the end. Praise God.

In Christ: Phillip

That no one of the 'true believers' will be lost had been declared by our Jesus Christ Himself:

\tJoh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's and.

The final salvation of the saints is certain, it shall happen, it had been predicted, declared, and sealed by the promises of God. However, it will not happen out of nothing without any necessities, our salvation is sum of the events from the death of our Lord Jesus Christ, to our regeneration, our sanctification, and perseverance in faith, righteousnes, and obedience to the end.

Our salvation is certain, but it is only certain upon the condition that our perseverance to the end is certain, nowhere in the bible that it is spoken otherwise.

"...the revelation that our salvation is certain does not make this foreknowledge the means in which our salvation is secured. It is dependent on the perseverance of the saint in the way of righteousness... and knowing this certainty cannot be a reason for not obeying, or provide encouragement to live in sin. Therefore, the knowledge of the certainty of our salvation cannot provide a ground for us to hope to receive immunity while we live a life of sin.

The doctrine of perseverance means that God’s grace and Spirit will preserve all who are true saints of God through faith, in the sense that, after regeneration, obedience is their rule, and disobedience is only the exception; and that if they do this they will certainly be saved with an everlasting salvation..."_ Charles G. Finney

But how do we know that we will persevere to the end, how much faith do we need_ like many of you I do not know really how much faith is needed, I just know that I will persevere because God foresaw it, God's power, grace, and mercy is behind it. He said it and it shall be done, there is no reason for me to doubt His words.

Luk 12:32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

\tPhi 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

\tHeb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)

\tHeb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Heb 12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and fain in your minds.

Following Christ is a tough one to pursue, it is in fact impossible for men, yet God assures us that our labors will not be in vain because His grace and mercy will follow us all the days of our lives. Our salvation although conditional is
absolutely certain because God keeps us. The Lord foreknows us, He saw us even before the foundation of this world, He knew our weaknesses, He remembers that we are made from dust:

\t
Psa 103:11 For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him.

Psa 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

Psa 103:13 Like as a father pitieth his children, so the LORD pitieth them that fear him.

Psa 103:14 For he knoweth our frame; he remembereth that we are dust.

Psa 103:17 But the mercy of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;

He foreknows our falls, and like the apostle Peter He prays for us:

\tLuk 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

Luk 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

He knows our propensity to sin to which He said:

\tEze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

If it is not possible to lose your salvation then why are there so many warnings in the New Testament given both to the disciples and to the church?

\tMat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

\t1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Natural possibility, that is, but let us never take it lightly.

Now there are controversial concepts regarding the security of the believers:

1. After regeneration, we will not fall, we will not go astray , it is absolutely against our new nature. However our Lord said this:

\tJoh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Even after regeneration, left on our own, we will fall, if we will not diligently abide in Christ.

\t..."The same is true of their perseverance in holiness, in every situation, in every act. The saints persevere, not because of some constitutional change, but because of the abiding and indwelling influence of the Holy Spirit. Free grace is always in advance of free will; that is, the will never obeys in any instance, not even for one moment, except as the
will is persuaded to obey just like it did the first time conversion took place.

The Holy Spirit continues the work it began by continuing to work in the saints to will and to do of His good pleasure. Saints do not begin in the Spirit, and then become perfect through the flesh. There is nothing holy that we can do that cannot be attributed to the grace and to the
influence of the Holy Spirit. The work of the Holy Spirit is just as important after conversion as it is during conversion.

All who are ever saved, or ever will be saved, are saved by and through free grace prevailing over free will, that is, by free grace securing the voluntary cooperation of free will."_Charles G. Finney

2. There is no possibility for us to fall because once we are introduced into the divine family there is no way that our sonhsip can be revoked no matter what we do.

The sonship analogy is just but an analogy, some other things or concepts may not apply. In the above verses we are also analogous to a branch which can get burned in the end.

3. There is no possibility of fall because we have believed we have been justified, it was a done deal as long as we certainly know that we have made the sinners prayer and we can point to that date we are immune from falling, no matter what we do.

This is unbiblical, this is believing in vain.

4. No one can be certain of one's salvation, because we cannot really know our future actions, we know that only those who will peresevere to the end, the same shall be saved, but how do we now that we will indeed persevere in the future...

God said that we will, by His Spirit, grace and mercy.

5. There is the possibility of falling because of warnings.

As said it is always a natural possibility, but For a natural possibility to happen, a series of events or a cause is needed for it to occur, take for example, it is naturally possible for us to die if we will jump from a great height, but we will not die because we are not going to jump, not unless we are insane.

The salvation of the saints is certain, it was already foreknown and clearly foretold, but the foreknowledge that our salvation is certain is not the means in which we shall be be saved, nor it negates the natural possibillity that we may fall. That we must be born again and persevere in faith and obedience to the end are essential events in God's design to brings us into His kingdom.

\t1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1Pe 1:6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:

1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

1Pe 1:14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:

1Pe 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

1Pe 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

1Pe 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

passerby wrote:

Quote:

"""The sonship analogy is just but an analogy, some other things or concepts may not apply. In the above verses we are also analogous to a branch which can get burned in the end."""

Then Jesus was just pulling Nicodemus' leg.

John 3:1-8 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Also, Peter did not know what he was talking about.

1 Peter 1:18-25 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Seed: This is parental seed. God our Father, whom Jesus specifically stated, Pray this way, "Our Father".

Word: The Logos of God: Jesus Christ, by His Seed are we Born Again.

John 1:1-5 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Translators should have capitalized The W in Word in 1 Peter 1:23 also.

So who are we born again by? By the Incorruptable Seed of the Father. Who is the Word and the Incorruptable Seed? Jesus Christ, of whom if we don't have, we are none of His.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Paul stated this position over 200 times in the epistles he wrote. "In Christ, and Christ in you"
He calls it "The mystery" not born again, but this is what Paul means.

Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

This is surly the fulfillment of God's plan before the foundation of the world.

The fulness of Christ in you the hope of glory is, "the fulness of Him that filleth all in all."

Ephesians 1:1-23 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us ((((((in Him before the foundation of the world,)))))) that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Galatians 4:5-7 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

Born again of Water and Spirit. The Water of Life and the Spirit of Christ birthed in you.

In Christ; a living, breathing, by the Son in me, by His Faith in me, a son of God: Phillip

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me.

This truly is the "Hope of Glory", CHRIST IN YOU.

Again, In Christ: PHillip

so phillip you are a once saved always saved adherent .. your dogmatic analogies are not the whole truth and therefore do not add up to the whole . keep on battling with the bible on this one , let the bible convince you and you will give up the notion of once saved always saved . We can not be plucked out of Gods hand by any man but we can be removed from and lose the earnest of our inheritance , you cannot ignore hebrews chapter 5

Re:

The sonship analogy is just but an analogy, some other things or concepts may not apply. In the above verses we are also analogous to a branch which can get burned in the end.

Hello Phillip, I can see and appreciate your point, this statement seems to undermine our sonship in Christ, but I don't really mean that.

There are different theological views on the extent of the meaning of our sonship in the divine family which I do not want to touch in this thread, but I may have really gone astray into challenging some theological position about our sonship

Our 'sonship' in Christ is real, but its implications is confined within a boundary and would not negate the 'natural possibility' that we may fall from grace if we will not heed the words of our Lord.

It is an exaggeration to say that our salvation is absolutely certain based on this relationship alone, that no matter what we do, we are never in danger of apostasy, falling, and be lost. This is what I really want to convey, that this view is an overstatement.

Please feel free to critique my post, I really hope that we can arrive into a faithful conclusion and description of the matter regarding our eternal security.

the Kingdom of God is AS A MARRAIGE , the two become ONE . this oneness is not between Just Jesus and God alone . this oneness is between the whole body of Christ and God . we have everything to do with our obedience .The Holy Spirit does not make us obedient . Love is not pushy , Love does not seek its own .
God is love . We are not surely trusting in works to be saved . we work, because, we believe that it is best to be about our fathers business . It is not ,to bad that none of us know the truth , some of us do know the truth . Love proves all things .It is not either God , or us . it us becoming one in God [love]. God saves our souls[the wife]. He does not get rid of the wife , so that , only the Husband [jesus] is working . husband and wife , become one , and work together .

Galatians 5:1-6 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised,

(that is if we think we do anything, any works, or don't do any works, circumcision is works, uncircumcision, no works of the flesh, we are sadly mistaken and headed for some awful words of condemnation, which is not for the believer, it is all Christs works through us and us in love and true knowledge by the Holy Spirit showing these works of Christ to the world, not by what we do or don't do, but by what Christ has done, no works lest any man should boast, but the works of Christ in us, of this is works we do, to show our faith which is Christ.)

These are awful words, that the loose your salvation people have to contend with.

Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, (works)that he is a debtor to do the whole law. (fulfill the whole law) Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; (works) ye are fallen from grace.

For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. (The only works a Christian has are the works of Faith that has been given us by the Christ that is in us. My works will show you my faith, that faith being the Christ in us being our total freedom and nothing added.) which cannot be lost.

For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision (works)availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; (No works but trust)but faith which worketh by love. (His works in us)

I hate the works salvation religion that looses salvation. I also hate the faith religion that says they don't have to do anything. They are both out of the Grace that God intends in Christ Jesus that is in us.

Lets keep our minds off of works or no works and keep them on Christ, for He is our only salvation and our only hope, the only One the Father trust to make the believer whole. So it is not works or no works that keeps us in Christ who has set us free. But the birthing of the Son of God in the son's of God, which makes us whole and will continue to make us whole until we sit with Christ on David's throne, judging the nation of the physical earth, and Israel doing the evangelizing of the whole world with the 144,000 who are sealed for this purpose.

In Christ: Phillip

phillip , you really seem adamant about how terrible you think some one who does see that salvation can be lost , by someone who really has been born again . your arguments cannot prove your belief , that salvation cannot be lost . The simple truth is salvation can be lost . read hebrews 6:1-6 then all the way to hebrews 10:26-31 , you need to really get a grasp of the truth we need to know that we are free to choose life or death , even after we have tasted of the Holy Ghost , we are able to do terribly and push the Holy Ghost out of our lives and thereby lose our earnest money of our inheritance [ down payment of our final salvation ] which is the Holy Spirit . We can after tasting of the Holy Spirit lose the holy Spirit and therefore lose salvation . it is not easy to do ,but it can be done . this is biblical . this is not my own idea .

Clintstone,

1 Peter 1:3-9 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

If we that believe have no boasting in ourselves for the Grace that has come to the elect of God, then how can we boast that it is now our works that will make Grace of the effect of keeping the salvation given us by this perfect Grace. It does not matter what I do, for I can do nothing for my salvation, it is all up to God and His Grace through Faith and "that not of yourselves", it is the gift of God.

I have waited a long time to answer your accusations, and yes I am adamant about not losing so great a salvation that I had nothing to do with in the first place, it is all of God and the Cross of Christ.

Who revealed to Peter that "you are the Christ the Son of God? Jesus said it was not of man, but His Father in Heaven. To this day it still stands, whosoever believes that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, will be saved. The revelation is still of God and those given to Christ as His body the Church, none will be lost, we are His and we cannot escape so great a salvation, even unto those who believe on His name.

Israel as a nation possessed an earthly inheritance, the promised land and with it corresponding earthly blessings. But now as the elect, according to the foreknowledge of the Father, they have a better inheritance. Earthly things are corruptible; the heavenly inheritance is incorruptible. Earthly things are defiled, pollution clings to the fairest and choicest; the coming inheritance is undefiled, nor can it ever be polluted by sin and its curse, it is eternally pure. Here on earth everything is fading, every beautiful flower has its roots in a grave, all is passing and fading away; but that inheritance which we shall receive is never-fading, it is always fresh and beautiful. And this inheritance is "preserved in heaven for you"; it is more than reserved, as we have it in our Bibles. It is with Him in the glory and He preserves it for His saints, so that the cruel hand of Satan cannot touch it nor take it away from man. And while that inheritance is preserved by the never-failing Lord in glory, saints are kept for the inheritance by the power of God through faith. Here is the real perseverance of the saints; the power to persevere and to keep is not in us but in God. That inheritance is ready to be revealed in the last times, that is when the Lord comes for His saints.

It is God who keeps, not of me or works lest any man should boast. Loosing salvation is just another form of man's works to attain salvation or loose it. Israel tried for 4000 years and could not attain it and Christ still had to come to save any, and keep a remnant for God the Father that all the promises could be given to a people that God chose as Israel, and now through Christ have so much greater salvation for those that are now Christians, neither Jew or Gentile.
Jew, earthly and Gentile, heavenly.

In Christ: Phillip

keep on going further into the living word of God and you will see that your theological assumptioms have holes , fill the holes with truth and you will see that salvation CAN BE LOST . Keep leaning to your own understanding and you may never see it till you are in heaven and see that people who were saved are not thier because they turned back .. you misunderstand the workings of, and the definition of the heart and soul of man .

I do clintstone and the deeper I Go into the the Love of God, which is Christ the Word, the more I am assured I cannot loose so great a salvation. It is God who has done it and will keep me and not me that keeps me. The deeper I go the more I love Him for what He has done, the impossibility I cannot do it myself and the more He is measuring me by the Son that He has birthed in me, He depends on Him to finish the work He has started. Praise God. It only makes we work harder to please Him, especially when I know He is doing the work to give me the desires of my heart, which I really did not even understand until I realized He is the Greatest desire we can have, that of loving Him, which sets me free.

Like James says, I truly can show my faith by the works being done, in, through and by Him that is in me, that is works coming forth from Christ as me, I in Him and Him in me. No boasting in these works for they are Him in me.

Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Many agree with me, sorry you cannot.

Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible
Colossians 1:29
Verse 29. Whereunto I also labour. Cmt. on 1Co 15:10.
Striving. Gr., agonizing, he taxed all his energies to accomplish this, as the wrestlers strove for the mastery in the Grecian games.

According to his working. Not by my own strength, but by the power which God alone can give. Cmt. on 1Co 15:10.

{c} "I also labour" 1Co 15:10

REMARKS.

Among the truths of practical importance taught by this chapter are the following:--

(1.) We should rejoice in the piety of others, Col 1:2-8. It should be to us a subject of unfeigned gratitude to God, when others are faithful to their high calling, and when they so live as to adorn the blessed gospel. In all their faith, and love, and joy, we should find in all occasions for thankfulness to God. We should not envy it, or be disposed to charge it to wrong motives, or suspect it of insincerity or hypocrisy; but should welcome every account of the zeal and faithfulness of those who bear the Christian name--no matter who the persons are, or with what denomination of Christians they may be connected. Especially is this true in relation to our friends, or to those for whose salvation we have laboured. The source of highest gratitude to a Christian, in relation to his friends, should be, that they act as becomes the friends of God; the purest joy that can swell the bosom of a minister of Christ, is produced by the evidence that they to whom he has ministered are advancing in knowledge and love.

(2.) We should earnestly pray that they who have been much favoured should be prospered more and more, Col 1:9-11.

(3.) It is a good time to pray for Christians when they are already prosperous, and are distinguished for zeal and love, Col 1:9-11. We have then encouragement to do it. We feel that our prayers will not be in vain. For a man that is doing well, we feel encouraged to pray that he may do still better; for a Christian who has true spiritual joy, we are encouraged to pray that he may have more joy; for one who is aiming to make advances in the knowledge of God, we are encouraged to pray that he may make still higher advances; and if, therefore, we wish others to pray for us, we should show them by our efforts that there is some encouragement for them to do it.

(4.) Let us cherish with suitable gratitude the remembrance of the goodness of God, who has translated us from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of his dear Son, Col 1:12-13. By nature we, like others, were under the power of darkness. In that kingdom of sin, and error, and misery, we were born and reared, until God, in great compassion, brought us out from it, and made us heirs of light. Now, if we are true Christians, we belong to a kingdom of holiness, and knowledge, and happiness. No words can express appropriately the goodness of God in thus making us heirs of light; and not an hour of our lives should pass without a thoughtful remembrance of his mercy.

(5.) In the affections of our hearts let the Saviour in all things have the pre-eminence, Col 1:15-18. He is the image of God; and when we think of him we see what God is--how holy, pure, benevolent. He is the firstborn of all things; the Son of God; exalted to the highest seat in the universe. When we look on the sun, moon, and stars, let us remember that he created them all. When we think of the angels, let us remember that they are the workmanship of his hands. When we look on the earth--the floods, the rivers, the hills, let us remember that all these were made by his power. The vast universe is still sustained by him. Its beautiful order and harmony are preserved by him; and all its movements axe under his control. So the church is under him. It is subject to his command; receives its laws from his lips, and is bound to do his will. Over all councils and synods--over all rule and authority in the church--Christ is the Head; and, whatever may be ordained by man, his will is to be obeyed. So, when we think of the resurrection, Christ is chief. He first rose to return to death no more; he rose as the pledge that his people should also rise. As Christ is thus head over all things, so let him be first in the affections of our hearts; as it is designed that in everything he shall have the pre-eminence, so let him have the pre-eminence in the affections of our souls. None should be loved by us as Christ is loved; and no friend, however dear, should be allowed to displace him from the supremacy in our affections.

(6.) In all our wants let us go to Christ, Col 1:19. "It pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell." We have not a want which he cannot supply; there is not a sorrow of our lives in which he cannot comfort us; not a temptation from which he cannot deliver us; not a pain which he cannot relieve, or enable us to bear. Every necessity of body or mind he can supply; and we never can go to him, in any circumstance of life in which we can possibly be placed, where we shall fad of consolation and support because Christ is not able to help us. True piety learns day by day to live more by simple dependence on the Saviour. As we advance in holiness we become more and more sensible of our weakness and insufficiency, and more and more dispose& to live "by the faith of the Son of God."

Galatians 2:16-21 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

In Christ: Phillip

In Christ: Phillip

I have never ever got into the workings of christ in this thred ,i understand tyhe difference between me .and Christ , i understand the mortification process of the flesh , i understand the dying daily , i understand your reasoniong on it being all of Christ and none of you ! but there is still, the two becoming one. in the Spirit , the wife can play the whore and go TOTALLY away from Christ into everlasting damnation , even after once having tasted of the gift of God ,{ salvation , born again , new heart }our names can be blotted out after the lambs book of life . I just bet with your theological viewpoint of it being all Christ and none of His members within the body doing anything only the head does it , that you have never ever operated in any of the gifts of the Spirit . It is both that does the work of God WE and Christ both do it as we become one .. WE CAN TOTALLY DIVORCE JESUS CHRIST , it is not as easy to do as some think , but it can be done and this is totally sound biblical doctrine i am telling you

Even as God will buy back Israel, as Hosea was instructed by God to buy back Gomer from the slave block, and she wait for the coming of the Lord. The Lord has already come to those that are His bought and paid for by the Cross. He will not loose any that are given to Him.

Yes we have a legitimate Oneness with the Spirit of the Son of God, in whom, if we don't have we are none of His. Romans 8:10-14 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

We will never loose our sonship to God, because of Christ, not because of anything man can do to attain salvation or loose salvation. It is all of God as I have said and scripture says many times.

Galatians 5:24-26 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If (fore as much as) we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

My spirit owner was defeated at the Cross, Satan no longer lives in me. Being Born again of Incorruptable Seed which is the Word Himself, Jesus Christ is now my Spirit and He will never leave me, I cannot be lost. It is Him that is preparing me as a chaste and perfect wife, and already married to Him, we await very impatiently our lamps trimmed and full of oil, for Him and the wedding supper The Father will flourish in The House Jesus Has prepared for us, in His Father's house.

Paul has it right;

2 Corinthians 10:1-6 Now I Paul myself beseech you by the meekness and gentleness of Christ, who in presence am base among you, but being absent am bold toward you: But I beseech you, that I may not be bold when I am present with that confidence, wherewith I think to be bold against some, which think of us as if we walked according to the flesh. For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me and the life I now live I live by the Faith of the Son of God.

2 Corinthians 10:17-18 But he that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. For not he that commendeth himself is approved, but whom the Lord commendeth.

Christ is my Glory and my Husband and my Brother in that we both have the Same Father, by adoption into the Family of God by the Spirit of Christ that is alive and birthed in me.

This is the mystery that Israel did not comprehend, but will when Christ is setting on the pronounced throne of David the Lineal earthly throne, Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Christ is preparing each member in the Body to be The Bride; Ephesians 5:25-27 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

He cannot present her to Himself if she can run away in adultry, she cannot, she will be bought back, even off the slave block.

Even Paul disparaged of his own salvation and what was his answer? "it is no longer I who sin", and who is he set free from this body of death? Praise God, Through Christ Jesus.

In Christ: Phillip

THE PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS

ARTICLE 1. Those whom God, according to His purpose, calls to the communion of His Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, and regenerates by the Holy Spirit, He also delivers from the dominion and slavery of sin, though in this life He does not deliver them altogether form the body of sin and from the infirmities of the flesh.

ARTICLE 2. Hence spring forth the daily sins of infirmity, and blemishes cleave even to the best works of the saints. These are to them a perpetual reason to humiliate themselves before God and to flee for refuge to Christ crucified; to mortify the flesh more and more by the spirit of prayer and by holy exercises of piety; and to press forward to the goal of perfection, until at length, delivered from this body of death, they shall reign with the Lamb of God in heaven.

ARTICLE 3. By reason of these remains of indwelling sin, and also because the temptations of the world and of Satan, those who are converted could not persevere in that grace if left to their own strength. But God is faithful, who, having conferred grace, mercifully confirms and powerfully preserves them therein, even to the end.

ARTICLE 4. Although the weakness of the flesh cannot prevail against the power of God, who confirms and preserves true believers in a state of grace, yet converts are not always so influenced and actuated by the Spirit of God as not in some particular instances sinfully to deviate from the guidance of divine grace, so as to be seduced by and to comply with the lusts of the flesh; they must, therefore, be constant in watching and prayer, that they may not be led into temptation. When these are great and heinous sins by the flesh, the world, and Satan, but sometimes by the righteous permission of God actually are drawn into these evils. This, the lamentable fall of David, Peter, and other saints described in Holy Scripture, demonstrates.

ARTICLE 5. By such enormous sins, however, they very highly offend God, incur a deadly guilt, grieve the Holy Spirit, interrupt the exercise of faith, very grievously wound their consciences, and sometimes for a while lose the sense of God's favor, until, when they change their course by serious repentance, the light of God's fatherly countenance again shines upon them.

ARTICLE 6. But God, who is rich in mercy, according to His unchangeable purpose of election, does not wholly withdraw the Holy Spirit from His own people even in their grievous falls; nor suffers them to proceed so far as t lose the grace of adoption and forfeit the state of justification, or to commit the sin unto death or against the Holy Spirt; nor does He permit them to be totally deserted, and to plunge themselves into everlasting destruction.

ARTICLE 7. For in the first place, in these falls He preserves in them the incorruptible seed of regeneration from perishing or being totally lost; and again, by His Word and Spirit He certainly and effectually renews them to repentance, to a sincere and godly sorrow for their sins, that they may seek and obtain remission in the blood of the Mediator, may again experience the favor of a reconciled God, through faith adore His mercies, and henceforward more diligently work out their own salvation with fear and trembling.

ARTICLE 8. Thus it is not in consequence of their own merits or strength, but of God's free mercy, that they neither totally fall from faith and grace nor continue and perish finally in their backslidings; which, with respect to themselves is not only possible, but would undoubtedly happen; but with respect to God, it is utterly impossible, since His counsel cannot be changed nor His promise fail; neither can the call according to His purpose be revoked, nor the merit, intercession, and preservation of Christ be rendered ineffectual, nor the sealing of the Holy Spirit be frustrated or obliterated.

ARTICLE 9. Of this preservation of the elect to salvation and of their perseverance in the faith, true believers themselves may and do obtain assurance according to the measure of their faith, whereby they surely believe that they are and ever will continue true and living members of the Church, and that they have the forgiveness of sins and life eternal.

ARTICLE 10. This assurance, however, is not produced by any peculiar revelation contrary to or independent of the Word of God, but springs from faith in God's promises, which He has most abundantly revealed in His Word for our comfort; from the testimony of the Holy Spirit, witnessing with our spirit that we are children and heirs of God (Rom 8:16); and lastly, from a serious and holy desire to preserve a good conscience and to perform good works. And if the elect of God were deprived of this solid comfort that they shall finally obtain the victory, and of this infallible pledge of eternal glory, they would be of all men the most miserable.

ARTICLE 11. The Scripture moreover testifies that believers in this life have to struggle with various carnal doubts, and that under grievous temptations they do not always feel this full assurance of faith and certainty of persevering. But God, who is the Father of all consolation, does not suffer them to be tempted above that they are able, but will with the temptation make also the way of escape, that they may be able to endure it (1 Cor 10:13), and by the Holy Spirit again inspires them with the comfortable assurance of persevering.

ARTICLE 12. This certainty of perseverance, however, is so far from exciting in believers a spirit of pride, or of rendering them carnally secure, that on the contrary it is the real source of humility, filial reverence, true piety, patience in every tribulation, fervent prayers, constancy in suffering and in confessing the truth, and of solid rejoicing in God; so that the consideration of this benefit should serve as an incentive to the serious and constant practice of gratitude and good works, as appears from the testimonies of Scripture and the examples of the saints.

ARTICLE 13. Neither does renewed confidence of persevering produce licentiousness or a disregard of piety in those who are recovered from backsliding; but it renders them much more careful and solicitous to continue in the ways of the Lord, which He has ordained, that they who walk therein may keep the assurance of persevering; lest, on account of their abuse of His fatherly kindness, God should turn away His gracious countenance from them (to behold which is to the godly dearer than life, and the withdrawal of which is more bitter than death) and they in consequence thereof should fall into more grievous torments of conscience.

ARTICLE 14. And as it has pleased God, by the preaching of the gospel, to begin this work of grace in us, so He preserves, continues, and perfects it by the hearing and reading of His Word, by meditation thereon, and by the exhortations, threatenings, and promises thereof, and by the use of the sacraments.

ARTICLE 15. The carnal mind is unable to comprehend this doctrine of the perseverance of the saints and the certainty thereof, which God has most abundantly revealed in His Word, for the glory of His Name and the consolation of pious souls, and which He impresses upon the hearts of the believers. Satan abhors it, the world ridicules it, the ignorant and hypocritical abuse it, and the heretics oppose it. But the bride of Christ has always most tenderly loved and constantly defended it as an inestimable treasure; and God, against whom neither counsel nor strength can prevail, will dispose her so to continue to the end. Now to this one God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, be honor and glory forever. Amen. (The Canons of Dort - The Synod of Dordrecht
November 13,1618 — May 9, 1619)

REJECTION OF ERRORS

The true doctrine having been explained [previous post],

the Synod rejects the errors of those:

1. Who teach: That the perseverance of the true believers is not a fruit of election, or a gift of God gained by the death of Christ, but a condition of the new covenant which (as they declare) man before his decisive election and justification must fulfil through his free will.

For the Holy Scripture testifies that this follows out of election, and is given the elect in virtue of the death, the resurrection, and the intercession of Christ: "What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened (Rom 11:7)." Likewise: "He who did not spare His own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ (Rom 8:32-35)?"

2. Who teach: That God does indeed provide the believer with sufficient powers to persevere, and is ever ready to preserve these in him if he will do his duty; but that, though all though which are necessary to persevere in faith and which God will use to preserve faith are made us of, even then it ever depends on the pleasure of the will whether it will persevere or not.

For this idea contains outspoken Pelagianism, and while it would make men free, it make them robbers of God's honor, contrary to the prevailing agreement of the evangelical doctrine, which takes from man all cause of boasting, and ascribes all the praise for this favor to the grace of God alone; and contrary to the apostle, who declares that it is God, "He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Cor 1:8)."

3. Who teach: That the true believers and regenerate not only can fall from justifying faith and likewise from grace and salvation wholly and to the end, but indeed often do fall from this and are lost forever.

For this conception makes powerless the grace, justification, regeneration, and continued preservation by Christ, contrary to the expressed words of the apostle Paul: "While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him (Rom 5:8-9)." And contrary to the apostle John: "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God (1 John 3:9)." And also contrary to the words of Jesus Christ: "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand (John 10:28-29)."

4. Who teach: That true believers and regenerate can sin the sin unto death or against the Holy Spirit.

Since the same apostle John, after having spoken in the fifth chapter of his first epistle, vs. 16 and 17, of those who sin unto death and having forbidden to pray for them, immediately adds to this in vs. 18: "We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin (meaning a sin of that character); the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him (1 John 5:18)."

5. Who teach: That without a special revelation we can have no certainty of future perseverance in this life.

For by this doctrine the sure comfort of the true believers is taken away in this life, and the doubts of the papist are again introduced into the Church, while the Holy Scriptures constantly deduce this assurance, not from a special and extraordinary revelation, but from the marks proper to the children of God and from the very constant promises of God. So especially the apostle Paul: "neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord (Rom 8:39)." And John declares: "Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us (1 John 3:24)."

6. Who teach: That the doctrine of the certainty of perseverance and of salvation from its own character and nature is a cause of indolence and is injurious to godliness, good morals, prayers, and other holy exercises, but that on the contrary it is praiseworthy to doubt.

For these show that they do not know the power of divine grace and the working of the indwelling Holy Spirit. And they contradict the apostle John, who teaches that opposite with express words in his first epistle: "Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure (1 John 3:2-3)." Furthermore, these are contradicted by the example of the saints, both of the Old and the New Testament, who though they were assured of their perseverance and salvation, were nevertheless constant in prayers and other exercises of godliness.

7. Who teach: That the faith of those who believe for a time does not differ from justifying and saving faith except only in duration.

For Christ Himself, in Matt 13:20, Luke 8:13, and in other places, evidently notes, beside this duration, a threefold difference between those who believe only for a time and true believers, when He declares that the former receive the seed on stony ground, but the latter in the good ground or heart; that the former are without root, but the latter have a firm root; that the former are without fruit, but that the latter bring forth their fruit in various measure, with constancy and steadfastness.

8. Who teach: That it is not absurd that one having lost his first regeneration is again and even often born anew.

For these deny by this doctrine the incorruptibleness of the seed of God, whereby we are born again; contrary to the testimony of the apostle Peter: "For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable (1 Pet 1:23)."

9. Who teach: That Christ has in no place prayed that believers should infallibly continue in faith.

For the contradict Christ Himself, who says: "I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail (Luke 22:32)", and the evangelist John, who declares that Christ has not prayed for the apostles only, but also for those who through their word would believe: "Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name," and "My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one (John 17:11, 15, 20)."

{This post has been edited and deleted. I found as I read further that my points were already stated.}

It is sad to think of how many people believe that the only thing keeping them safely in their Father's Almighty hand is themselves.

It is sad to think how many use bad analogies and incorrect information to put down other Christians.

I haven't invested much thought in an illustration, but if you hold a baby chick in your hand, no one would say that the chick is keeping itself safe. You are. However, if the chick is determined and persistent enough, it can get away.

Rather than castigate and insult other believers, please realize some of us hold a simple and childlike understanding of being held in the Father's hand.

By man's hands, surly the chick might get away.
By God's hand, surly not.

In Christ by the Father's Hand.

Phillip

Catholic wrote:

CAN BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS LOOSE SALVATION and END UP IN HELL?

Of course. See...if you guys would have never left the church, you wouldn't even be having this discussion.

[edit: Like heydave pointed out that Jesus said in the other thread: "by your fruit you shall know them."

If you really wanted to come in here and be a teacher of the catholic religion, you would have came in another spirit.

Hello Lysa,

I do like to admit that According to Apostle Paul in the book of Corinthians he spoke of two types of christians : the carnal christians and the spiritual minded christians. Now if by BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS you mean carnal christian Offcourse YES! they can LOOSE their salvation and end up in HEll because to be carnally minded is to be dead spiritually. But if by BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS you mean Spirtually Minded ones then i tell you NO! they cant be found in HELL niether can they loose their SALVATION! because they will have their mind renewed on a daily basis and a "ROLLING STONE DOES NOT GATHERED MOSS!"

Of course. See...if you guys would have never left the church, you wouldn't even be having this discussion.

Catholic, I am guessing this opinion is not shared by all Catholics...at least the ones I know. I have a Catholic friend who complains a lot just like folks do here on this forum! and is troubled by sin - as the scriptures define sin - running unchecked in her local church.

ginnyrose

Catholic, I guess the Thomists and the Molinist disagreement isn't what I thought it was.

by Hesavedme on 2009/8/24 6:59:13 Hello Lysa, I do like to admit that According to Apostle Paul in the book of Corinthians he spoke of two types of christians : the carnal christians and the spiritual minded christians. Now if by BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS you mean carnal christian Offcourse YES! they can LOOSE their salvation and end up in HEll because to be carnally minded is to be dead spiritually. But if by BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS you mean Spirtually Minded ones then i tell you NO! they cant be found in HELL niether can they loose their SALVATION! because they will have their mind renewed on a daily basis and a "ROLLING STONE DOES NOT GATHERED MOSS!"

Dear int3grity,

I would respond by amplifying on the response by Hesavedme above.

If you ask any Christian if they are born again, almost all of them will say yes. But we know from scripture (Mt 7:21-23) that on the day of judgment, many who claim Jesus as their Lord and Saviour will be disappointed to learn that they will not be allowed into God's kingdom.

The truth is one does not become a born-again Christian by declaring himself to be such. Neither can the declaration of a "religious authority" like a priest, or a pastor, or an evangelist make it so. Only God is qualified to decide the matter. However, he has provided sufficient guidelines in the Bible to help us assess ourselves in this regard.

First, we must make a distinction between a professing Christian and a born-again Christian. A professing Christian is one who has turned towards God and openly acknowledges Jesus as Lord. In a sense one can say that he has faith in God... but the critical question is what kind of faith? This distinction of different levels of faith or belief is explained in the Bible in Mt 13:1-23 (Parable of the Sower) and James 2:14-26 (Faith and Deeds).

A professing Christian can be likened to a new believer who believes in God and his word, yet has not yet imbibed a sufficient understanding of scripture and God's character to experience a life change (being born again). A professing Christian is still a seeker who has not yet reached the end of his journey. A reborn Christian is one who not only believes in God and his word, but also has come to a point of understanding where he is overwhelmed by the greatness of God's love, the majesty of God's holiness, and the sinfulness and unworthiness of his own life. The reborn Christian is so moved by these things that he truly falls in love with God the the way explained by Jesus in Mt 22:36-40 "with all your heart and with all your soul and will all your mind".

I believe it is this "falling in love with God" phase that constitutes true rebirth. Of all human values, virtues, or emotions, it is love that has the power to change lives. It is love that changes one from being a "taker" (self-gratification) to being a "giver" (selflessly gratifying the object of our love). Love is what makes parents die for their children; it is what makes patriots die for their country; it is what made God give up his only son for us; it is what made Jesus die for our redemption; and it is what will make us live or die for Christ. That is why scripture says in 1Co 13:13 that love is greater than faith.

The journey from being a professing Christian to a reborn Christian depends on how well the Holy Spirit is able to lead the believer. It can take an instant, or it may take a lifetime, and sometimes the journey is never completed. As explained in the parable of the sower, if we allow ourselves to be distracted, if we lose interest, and if we fail to become deeply-rooted we could fail to complete the journey --- thus we have a situation where a "born-again" Christian appears to lose his salvation and end up in hell. The truth is he was never born-again, though he claimed to be.

I am of the persuasion that a true born-again Christian --- one who has come to know God intimately, one who has fallen totally in love with God, and whose overriding goal in life is to please God and God alone --- such a one can no longer be lost (Jn 10:29).

Love is so powerful that one would seek to please his or her beloved even in the absence of rewards and even with the threat of punishments. Thus we see how the apostles and many Christians devoted themselves to serving the cause of Christ even though they suffered and died for it.

One way I try to distinguish true born-again Christians from those who have still to reach that point is to ask: Why are you a Christian? Most would answer something like: To gain eternal life; to be blessed; to become righteous before God; to be with fellow believers; to gain guidance; to get to heaven, etc. To paraphrase these responses, they are saying "I am a Christian to get something good for myself" -- still with the attitude of a "taker" but definitely moving along the right path (thank God). But those who have been transformed would answer "I am a Christian because I love God", and if pushed they would admit that they would still be Christians even without the promise of salvation, even without heaven or hell, even without the promise of blessings. These are those who would suffer and die for Christ. These are those of whom the Bible says "the world was not worthy of them". These are the ones who can never fall away --- because they are in love with God.

salvation is not "losable" like the remote control for the T.V. is "losable"

Our salvation is apostatable (if that is a word) Just as ones marriage is divorcable.
Note:
The Greek word for divorce is ἀποστάσιον - apostasion = ap-os-tas'-ee-on
Srong's Greek #647
We get the word Apostasy or apostate from this word, but it is also what divorce is.

[b]2Thes 2:3[/b] [color=990000]Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come the falling away[/color] (Greek: apostasia) [color=990000]first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;[/color]
[b]2Pe 2:1b[/b] [color=990000]even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.[/color]
They were bought with a price (1Corinth 6:20, 1Corinth 7:23) and that price was Christ's blood.
since they were bought, then they are HIS and have eternal life, however, they denied Him and Apostatized - they divorced themselves from Him

However, this doesn't come from a certain amount of sin, but from adopting a bad theology, being deceived:
[b]Gal 1:6[/b] [color=990000]I marvel that you are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel [b]:7[/b] Which is not another...[/color]
When anyone strays from the truth, they stray from Christ.

[b]2 Timothy 2:13[/b] [color=990000]If we believe not, yet he abides faithful: he cannot deny himself.[/color]
If we deny the faith and apostatize, He will deny us (2Tim 2:12).

If we are unbelieving and unfaithful, denying Him, then Christ will remain true to his Word, and we cannot hope to be saved.
It is a denial of his very nature to save those who are unfaithful. He is holy; how can he save one who is unholy?
Nothing would be more unrighteous than for God than to save a man that denies Him, let alone one who purposefully lived habitually in sin.

[b]Hebrew 6:6[/b] [color=990000]and having fallen away[/color] (it is impossible V4) [color=990000]to be renewing them again to repentance, all the while they are crucifying for themselves the Son of God and having publicly disgraced Him.[/color]
This verse implies that this one is still fallen away. No one who is in a fallen state may be renewed; they must repent (get up from the fallen state) in order for them to be renewed.

For, while they are still fallen, they are [color=990000]bringing forth thorns and star thistles, being disqualified and near being curse, whose end is to be burned.[/color] (Hebrew 6:8)

I have read some portions of this LONG thread. I think Logic has just made a very good point.

The two camps that often debate this issue are the "Once saved, always saved" camp and the "saved - lost - saved - lost, born again again every time you sin" camp. I really believe both are in a theological ditch so to speak and the truth is somewhere in the middle.

Yes, I believe it is possible to lose your salvation, and once lost, you will never regain it.

Heb 6:4-6
(4) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
(5) And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
(6) If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

I too believe that actions of sin cannot cause one to lose salvation. I will speak facetiously for a moment and say that if that were true, we ought to have an execution squad waiting behind every altar and as soon as someone receives Christ, send them to heaven promptly so they cannot lose their salvation. To me, that is the logical end to saying that actions of sin cause us to lose salvation.

Salvation, to be lost, must be denied. It must be rejected by the person to whom it was given. I think the above verses of Hebrews give some very explicit requirements of a person that can deny their salvation. It is a carefully premeditated act of the will by a person who was spiritually mature.

This being said, if a born again person willingly engages in sinful acts, that person must harden his or her heart against the Holy Spirit to do so. This willful hardening of heart is the first step toward coming to a place of apostasy. It is important that we learn to crucify our flesh and live out of our born again spirits. We are all tempted with sin. Unfortunately, sometimes we give in to a temptation. We need to be quick to repent, but also live with the assurance that we have not "thrown it all away" because of one action of sin.